Bad Hasbara - The World's Most Moral Podcast - [UNLOCKED] 181: Zero Dark Section 230, with Taylor Lorenz

Episode Date: March 16, 2026

Matt and Daniel are joined by journalist Taylor Lorenz to examine hasbarist intervention in US journalism, the censorship and surveillance nightmare that is Section 230 repeal, and to spike their own cortisol levels reviewing their attempt at statusmaxxing, in which they frame mogged The Forward.Please donate to https://www.map.org.uk/Taylor on YT: https://www.youtube.com/@TaylorLorenzTaylor’s Livestreams: https://www.youtube.com/@TaylorLorenzLivestreamsTaylor’s Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/cw/taylorlorenzFight For The Future: https://www.fightforthefuture.org/actions/joseph-gordon-levitt-letter/New Bad Hasbara Merch: https://estoymerchandise.com/collections/bad-hasbara-podcastSubscribe to the Patreon https://www.patreon.com/badhasbaraWhat’s The Spin playlist: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/50JoIqCvlxL3QSNj2BsdURSkad Skasbarska playlist: http://bit.ly/skadskasbarskaSubscribe/listen to Bad Hasbara wherever you get your podcasts.Spotify https://spoti.fi/3HgpxDmApple Podcasts https://apple.co/4kizajtSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/bad-hasbara/donationsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Hello, hello, hello, hello, hello, hello, hello, hello, everyone and welcome to Bad Hasbara. The world's most morality maxing Hasbara mugging podcast. That's right, baby. Whatever the fuck that means. It means what you want it to mean. My name is Jester MacLeab, and I will be your most moral co-host for this podcast. And I'm Daniel Mogtay on the other. Moral podcast.

Very good. Host thing. Yes. Shout out to all the mogs out there and the foids, whatever that means. And shout out to producer Adam. Mogging on the ones and twos. I wish I knew more looks maxing. So if anyone's confused, don't worry about it.

Don't worry about it. You don't even want to look up the type of bullshit that we've been inundated with. You don't need to know who clavicular is. You don't need to know any of this shit. Shout out to Adam. Go read a clockwork orange. It's better. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's better nonsense slang. Yes, yes. You'll have so much more fun and you'll learn something. Be a good droog and go read a clockwork orange. Yes. Please like, subscribe, comment, do all of the things. Give us five stars in a review on the podcast apps. Tell your friends about it.

You know, tell your parents about it. Come out to your parents. and say, mom, dad, I have something to tell you. I am an anti-Zionist, and this is a podcast I've been listening to about anti-Zionism. Please don't kick me out of the home. Chances are they won't.

Mom, dad, I like Holocaust jokes in a universalist sort of humanistic kind of way. Right, exactly. I like it when it's done well and with good intention and where everyone can learn and not just no one. I was thinking about that recently, by the way, Daniel. Someone, I forget who it was.

Coleman Hughes or one of these like free press fucking idiots. Some online Zionist was saying the same thing that Sarah Hurwitz said, which was, oh, we really need to, we really need to reform our Holocaust education because people keep applying the lessons of the Holocaust to things. things that that don't count. Yeah, we really, we really fucked up when we let that, that, that genie of particularity and moral specificity and a limited hangout for, for like, ethical lessons for humanity out of the bag, you know, when we, when we let other people identify with our struggle and

see themselves in it and derive principles. Yeah, when they're like, yeah, it's the wrong, the wrong lessons, the lessons that these, that what happened to the Holocaust applies to anyone. And I was like reading it and my brain almost exploded at the thought of like, that's what lessons are. Yeah. Otherwise, there's no lesson.

Otherwise, what you're saying is do not learn from the Holocaust. The Holocaust is something that happened in isolation, in a vacuum, only ever happened to Jews. It's the most ridiculous statement. And people can just say it. And no one,

everyone goes, yeah, that's right. Sarah Hurwitz can go and say that in front of a bunch of people, and they all nod in agreement. I'm like, you're saying don't learn from the Holocaust. How is that not Holocaust denial? Okay.

They need to build these lessons of the Holocaust like pagers that will explode on you. Yeah, exactly. With too much use, you know. Exactly. That'll teach you to try to learn. Yeah, yeah. That'll teach you. Yes. What else? New shirts? No, same shirt. But you can get one at bad hasbarred.com.

It'll be new as in not used. Yeah. It'll be never worn. Baby shoes never worn. And it'll also be the first time you've ever had one if you haven't bought one. Quantities are limited. Get them before they run out. And if the only if the only sizes are available are 4xL, then get yourself a new sexy, you know, night shirt. Yeah, a dress. It's a nice dress. You can wear it. It's long. And you'll love it. Yeah. Also, you can, you know, go to a tailor. Speaking of which, I'm very excited for our guest. Nicely done. Thank you. Today's episode is brought to you by Map. Medical aid for Palestinians. Medical aid for Palestinians works for the health and dignity of Palestinians living under occupation as refugees. They provide immediate medical aid to those in great

need while also developing local capacity and skills to ensure the long-term development of the Palestinian healthcare system. If you have any money and would like to donate some of it, go to the link you see on the screen, www.map.org.org. You can click the link in the description, or you can just type in those letters right now into your browser. If Matt is recommending something English to you, you know it has to be good. That's right. Usually I, you know, I'm 10-foot pole when it comes to the Brits. I don't want to have anything to do with anything.

Dot UK. Nothing, just a disgusting island. Wouldn't it be like a two-meter pole? Or do the Brits still use, of course the Brits invented the pound. Oh, yeah. Imperial measurements are British. But they're like, they're caught in that European bind. Yeah.

I think they use, I thought they just, they say meters. They say, for some measurements, yeah, I feel like for height and weight, kilograms and centimeters are. They say some weird shit too, though. They say like stone. Yeah, yeah, stone. Oh, he's like 15 stone, yeah, ain't it? And it's like, what the, what are you?

Yeah, Fortnite's. Yeah, Fortnite's, they say a bunch of weird shit. See, this is why I don't fuck with the Brits. But I do fuck with this link. So go to. Map Map.org. UK and donate now.

Daniel, what's the spin? Matt, could you recognize this face? Gosh, it looks like Cindy Lopper, but I don't know who. It kind of does because the era matches. I'll give you a hint. Yeah. The scent of Magnolia

might be hanging in the air when you see this face. The scent of Magnolia? Are you telling me that's Amy Mann? That is Amy Mann. What? Really? in her original group Till Tuesday,

who had a one-hit wonder in the 80s called Voices Carey. Oh, hush, keep it down now. Voices carry. Do you know that sound? No, I don't, but I'm fucking, I'm with it. It was a hit on the radio when I was a kid. Anyway, this is her group till Tuesday.

And so the spin today is very good. Today, the spin is albums featuring people that we know from other bands, and it's not just like a guest appearance, but actually like a side project or something else. I love that. That's a great idea. Isn't that great?

I love it. Let's do it. Here we got Temple of the Dog, of course. Chris Cornell formed this group with members of, so Chris Cornell and Matt Cameron from Soundgarden. And you got Mike McCready, Stone Gossert, and Jeff Ament from Pearl Jam. So this is, was this side project during Soundgarden? Yes, it was.

During Soundgarden and just as Pearl Jam was starting. This is in 1991. So Hunger Strike, you know, and Eddie Vedder sings on Hunger Strike. Yeah. And so, and the layer to it is that this was a tribute album to his friend, Andrew Wood, the singer of Mother Lovebone, which was the precursor to Pearl Jam. A couple of members of Pearl Jam are also in this group, Mother Love Bone. This is their album, Apple. So these are a couple of Seattle things.

And one more Seattle connection. Mad Season Above, featuring Lanes Daly from Allison Chains. This is his side project. Look at that. Look at that Seattle scene. What a scene it was. True. Truly.

And I think that Grunge is closer to blues music than people think. It's very bluesy and stuff. Christine McVee was formerly known as Christine Perfect before she married John McVee of Fleetwood Mac and joined Fleetwood Mac years before Lindsay Buckingham and Stevie Nick did. So this is her, the legendary Christine Perfect album. It's fantastic.

Yeah. I've never heard solo solo. stuff from the other female singer of Fleetwood Mac. It's really, really good. I mean, and she was their secret. I mean, not so secret, but she wrote so many of their hits. And she really warmed up the group, you know. I think I only really know, what's that one that she does?

She sang, she wrote, don't stop. You make loving fun. Songbird. She wrote Songbird? Mm-hmm. She sings it. What? am I crazy

that's not CV-Nicks hell no no see this is I can't you're Mandela affecting me this is some gaslighting shit uh David Bowie's young Americans

features a chorus of backup soul singers led by Luther Vandross who does all the vocal arrangements on this album Nice Young American And another David Bowie album

features Was it Luther Vandross Who used to I'm probably wrong about this. He used to be a jingle writer. And he wrote a he wrote a juicy fruit ad. He might well have.

Yeah, he did. He did. He wrote an ad for juicy fruit in like the 80s. Awesome. Isn't that cool? I don't know. I thought that was fun. Luther was great. Kendrick has a song that samples and is named after him on James. I know, Luther. David Bowie also has has this album, Let's Dance, which for some reason has him what seems to be in boxing gloves,

but anyway, I guess that's kind of a boxing term, let's dance. Stevie Ray Vaughn plays all over this album. Really? I did not know that. Now Rogers produced it of chic. Yeah. Was he, was Stevie a solo artist at this time? No, this is 1983 or so.

Oh, so he's just a session guy? Yeah, go listen to the solo on Let's Dance. And immediately you'll know it's Stevie Ray. Oh, crazy. Like his signature riff. That's amazing. Anyway, a couple more. Digital Underground Sex Packets featuring Do What You Like and The Humpty Dance.

And you know who was a member of Digital Underground before he was old? Two Pack. Two Pack is, I don't think he's on this album, but I thought it counted. Yeah, it counts. And then finally, this album, Hooker and Steve. by Earl Hooker. You know who Steve is? Steve B. Ray Vaughan.

No. This guy right here in the middle, Steve Miller. Oh. The fucking Steve Miller band had the design of 1969 with a blues legend, Earl Hooker.

Yeah. And Steve plays organ. And it's really, really, really good. Look at that. Look at that. That's your spin today, folks.

That's what's spinning. We're talking synergy. That's right. Synergistic solution. to musical problems. I don't know what I'm saying. That is what is spinning. And now we are going to synergize

with a wonderful guest who is someone I've been following for a long time. Someone who was early in calling out the genocide in Gaza, the hands of Israel, someone who has taken a lot of shit from a lot of people and is

and yet continues to do journalism. We're talking to... She kind of makes the rounds of who she takes shit from, it seems to me. Yeah, no, she's all over the map. It's all over the map, which is always fun. And today,

we are going to be talking to her tech journalist and content creator. She is on YouTube right now. You should subscribe to her channel. But first, everyone, Ladies and gentlemen, everyone else, welcome Taylor Lorenz to the podcast. Hey. Thanks for having me.

Thanks for being had. Happy to have you. Happy to have you on the podcast. Thank you for doing it. We appreciate anyone who answers an email from us. You really never know. I wanted to bring you on for multiple reasons. but I first want our audience who, anyone who may not be familiar with you, to learn about you.

Can you tell us first what your beat is and then also what your experience has been post-October 7th being someone who cares about Palestinian human rights? Yeah. I am a technology journalist. I've basically been a technology journalist for 15 years. I cover tech primarily from the user side. so how people use technology, online culture, stuff like that. I cover a lot to do with tech policy and civil liberties, surveillance laws and things like that.

And so, yeah, I used to work in mainstream media. I worked at the Atlantic and then the New York Times and then the Washington Post. Wow. Look at those. I mean, it's interesting because all three of those are, of course, major journalistic institutions. and all three of those in the past two years are complicit in the genocide of Palestinians. And it's so interesting to see someone who, you know, as formerly at one point worked for them. And what have you seen in terms of their coverage for the last couple of years?

How have you felt about it? Well. Would I be right in thinking that the Washington Post is like the least horrible of all of them in the past couple of years? Hmm. Interesting. I don't know. I wouldn't say that. I mean, on this issue, on the Palestine issue, sure. But I mean, look at what they just did, the tech reporting team. They literally laid off Natasha Tiku, Caroline Donovan, our Amazon reporter. I think, you know, the influence of Jeff Bezos. I mean, this is a huge reason why I left my editor retired last year. And I left when he retired because the week that he retired is when they fired our female editor. And she fired, you know, all of these senior leaders in our newsroom and started to. I think they rebranded the tech team, like the innovation team.

And so, you know, the influence of us. That's getting dangerously close to the like Israel maxing team. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, I still freelance in mainstream media. And I write about technology. So I will always sort of take a plan. Not from the New York Times. I refuse to ever freelance for the New York.

I signed a letter sign. I would never, I mean, they've just been so complicit. But I still do write for mainstream media about technology. I think the sort of foreign policy coverage from these places is delusional and genocidal. And I mean, the New York Times to me is just like it's unconscionable. Not just for the genocide denial. But, I mean, I was there when they started manufacturing consent for COVID stuff where in 2021, they were just like literally lying, publishing misinformation.

This is, it was appalling to me. I mean, I spent years covering the sort of misinformation crisis during Trump 1.0 and all these people constantly will write articles. is misinformation, misinformation, and then you see them basically telling people, hey, guys, COVID, like, magically disappeared. Everyone needs to get back to work. Don't ask for health care. Don't ask for time off. You know, don't ask for better treatments. Like, everyone get back to work and sacrifice yourself.

And as somebody that's immunocompromised, they care a lot about that. So I think, like, that's when I started to be like, wait a minute. Uh-oh, they're really bad. And then, yeah, the October 7 stuff was crazy. I wasn't, I will be honest, like, extremely knowledgeable about this topic before October 7. but I covered sort of how people were getting news on TikTok within the first couple weeks of, you know, after October 7th. And very quickly, I was like, what is going on? Did you ever consider, and I'm sure you had Zionists offering you this helpful, constructive feedback,

which is to say that if you don't know so much about it, maybe what you ought to do is not educate yourself and just stay silent about it forever. No, I had a call with an IDF soldier. I was listening to propaganda people. I mean, I was actually shocked because, like, in the newsroom, I just like, you know, I was like, oh, who has some good sources? And actually there are amazing reporters. Like, a lot of the people that actually cover the stuff at the post are totally on the right side.

And I think that's why the post coverage has been better than some others. But I wrote this story about, like, people are getting their news from TikTok. The same generic story I wrote probably 100 times in mainstream media. Like, I don't know why it's news, but they want every major world event. Wow, people are learning. And of course, it's framed in a moral panic. Like, uh-oh, maybe they shouldn't be, you know? Yeah, yeah.

And I wrote that story. And in the lead of the story, I actually quoted a friend of a friend who's a Palestinian journalist, who was, I had just come up on my TikTok, and I was following them. And she lived in a refugee camp, and she was talking about this. And so, you know, going back and reading the story now, I'm like, this is the most neutral story I could have ever written. But after that, I got a call from all the. He's like Zionists were calling me.

You don't understand it. You know, the fact that you quoted this journalist is, you know, whatever. And my editor, Mark Seibel, the best editor in the entire world, Mark Seibel, like, God bless him. He retired. He, I think he was like Jerusalem bureau chief for McClatchie at one point or whatever. He clocked it immediately. He was like, Taylor, just wait. Like, you're like, he is on the right side of things.

And so like, but I think it's very telling that he, you know, he went to, he retired shortly after. Yeah. But yeah, I just was very weirded out. They were telling me that like I was anti-Semitic because I had quoted a journalist. And that like one of them, my favorite moment too, because I was in the midst of my book tour when all this was happening. This woman called and said that she was like, you know, on October 7th, they were cutting babies out of pregnant women's stomachs. And I was like, well, that's crazy. Do you have any evidence of that claim?

No. but you need to print it and why aren't you printing this claim? And I was like, well, first of all, like, how many pregnant, what are you talking about? Yeah, I was like, plural? Like this was happening, this happened more than once, if at all. Why? But it was this idea that they were like savages. And as a journalist that had that I care a lot about free speech and human rights.

Like, it was just so quick, like their efforts to silence me. And then of course I had stopped anti-Semitism. I was like, oh, you guys are all completely psychotic and you don't. care at all about free speech. And then look at the response from the mainstream media industry as they slaughter hundreds of journalists. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, at this point, too many to count. And I think the count is upwards of 250. I mean, it's probably more than that as of this recording. But yeah, no. The committee to protect journalists, as you saw, I'm sure yesterday, is not doing their list anymore. Yeah, yeah, they stopped doing the list. Oh, right. The impunity.

The impunity index. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's right. No, that's what it's called. And they said, it's literally called the impunity index. Right. And they've done it for years. And they decided that it's just the time to retire that index of countries that get away with shit. Impunity and schmunity, they said. You know, it doesn't matter to name the countries who are getting away with stuff.

The point is, is people got to get away with it. So, you know, you've obviously been attacked for, you know, this article. And it sounds like you started your Israel-Palestine education, at least deep, deep education after October 7th. Since then, your beat and what's going on in Israel and our government's complicity in it and support of it and spearheading a lot of it seems to tie in with your beat, with your tech beat a lot. And I think the obvious, the obvious, one is, of course, TikTok. You talk about how, you know, TikTok, hey, kids are getting their news from TikTok.

And, you know, cut to two years later, Trump has forced the sale of TikTok due to the complicity, of course, the Democrats and the Republicans, to the Ellisons. Well, just be clear, Biden forced the sale. Well, that's true. You know, the Democrats, the Democrats restarted a conversation that had been left on the shelf about, oh, China is spying, you know, on us and doing censorship, and we don't want the Chinese to run this. Then it kind of like, I don't know, it was on the back burner for a while. It wasn't on the back burner. It was, let's just be clear. Trump, like, briefly floated banning TikTok

via executive order in 2020. That went out the window within like a month. Okay. Trump actually realized that that was politically stupid and not to do it. There was no, this was not a thing. No, no, no serious person thought of this, no serious person was talking about it, it was gone. And then when it was re-ignited after October 7th, it was nothing to do with an executive order. It was a law for the first time, a law that, by the way, this law could potentially be used to ban the Al Jazeera app. You know, this law will and probably be, you know, this sort of, this precedent, rather, will be misused.

But I just think it's so important to note that Biden played such a key role in pushing this back forward and getting it back on the map in a way that could actually go through. Right. And was that before or after or during the era when we had, I mean, certainly before the era of Netanyahu meeting with influencers and saying we need to control the platforms because that happened more recently, I think. But, you know, mainstream Jewish organizations or Zionist organizations, I should say, like the ADL and the UJA or whatever, at their conferences, all these, these hand-wringing speeches about we don't have what is it we don't have a right left

problem we have a youth problem that we've lost this generation that dawning creeping dread as they realized that it's probably too late to propagandize these kids

because they've been depropagandized or propagandized to look at the world in a way that's other than the way we want them to. Was that, was the law before that, or what was the chicken and the egg here? Yeah. So, I mean, there's a lot of precedent to this.

And one thing I will say, as a tech journalist, you work a lot with Israel. Like, I always talk to so many Israeli founders. Like, Israel actually has such a, because it's so intertwined with the surveillance state and authoritarianism, but like, we have this, like, very symbiotic relationship with the Israeli tech industry. I've been to Israel. Israel. I was always talking to Israeli founders. After October 7th, I heard, I talked to so many Israeli founders. Like, my old boss was Israeli. So I just, like, it was very wild when after October 7th,

suddenly it's like, whoa, wait a minute. Like, what are you guys all to? And actually, some of them are actually on the right side of history. Like, now I realize, like, my old boss, like, is amazing and is actually a very anti-Zionist Jew. And he's been saying, like, he called me and he was like, Taylor just so you know, like, he. here's what's up. You know, this is a man that was born and raised in Israel and was in the IDF and worked in Israeli tech for years and stuff. And really, I look up to him so much because he's sort of taught me a lot about it.

But anyway, so, so when October 7th happened, you mentioned like these influencer networks, which I covered, like sprung into action very quickly. And one thing that these influencers were talking about is like, hey, we're not getting as much traction online on TikTok as Palestinians are or as, you know, know, people challenging these narratives are. So there was like an immediate moral panic. And that was sort of shepherded in through the mainstream media, like the New York Times, which ran the worst story ever on this.

It was like literally anti-Semitism, you know, taking over TikTok, just like such irresponsible coverage. TikTok, the next Holocaust is coming soon. Literally. It was crazy. But it reminded me so much. So I started it as a blogger personally. And I was so, like, affected by the Iraq war as a millennial and, like, blogging, even back then in the 2000s, like, you had these, like, military blogs.

You had these blogs that actually challenged the Iraq war. This is why we found out about, like, waterboarding, you know, being mass used to torture people was because of bloggers. So, like, there was a more. There's always been this, like, moral panic from the government that, like, we want to shut down, you know, we want to shut down the internet. We want to shut down the internet. But it was never people kind of. realized the Iraq war was wrong. Then we had the optimism of the Obama years.

So it wasn't until the tech clash when Donald Trump came into power that like liberals started to get on board with like, okay, wait, we also want a mass censor the internet. Yes. So that sort of started to happen. And then when October 7th happened, it was like, okay, here's our opening. We have been trying this. And we've been working towards it, right? Like, Fostas has to pass in 2018 one year into the tech lash.

but that anti-technology sort of sentiment among the left and liberals paved the way for TikTok ban. Because I will tell you, there was no meaningful leftist movement against the TikTok ban. Now they understand it was about Palestine. When you tried to talk about the fact that it was about Palestine back in 2024, you would be called anti-Semitic. There were no, none of these leftists were showing up. There was a big protest at the Capitol. The people that showed up for the protests of the Capitol were like,

I'm a small business owner and TikTok is going to devastate, you know, the TikTok ban will devastate. which is terrible. But like it was, it wasn't until Warner and Gallagher, the co-sponsors of the bill themselves in 2024, was it, or was that last February? I think it was last February said, yeah, it was all about Palestine. Right. And yeah.

And then Romney and Wall Street Journal and like everyone sort of could. Well, I mean, people, before the, you know, TikTok ban took place or maybe it was, you know, after the ban bill had passed. I assume it was done with the bill. And it was after a pass that people started to get mad about it. That's when people said they're doing this, you know, specifically, you know, at the behest of Israel in order to censor, you know, pro-Palestinian voices, but also in order to, you know, fight against this moral panic of, oh, no,

all of our kids are becoming Hamas. And the fight seemed to be at that point, too little too late. And that's kind of, seems to be a running theme when it comes to the left in general, really taking on the tech industry. Yeah, I mean, they just, it's something that. They don't pay attention to tech policy. Yeah. No one on the left covers tech policy and they don't pay attention to it.

I have a question about a relationship. dynamic, and I hope it's not too far outside the scope of this conversation. Just curious to know what you think about it. You mentioned misinformation, right? Am I wrong in remembering that one precursor to a kind of permissiveness or even appetite for tech censorship had to do with a lot of conversation about the sorts of misinformation that shouldn't be on the internet? And a lot of that was coming from so-called liberal establishment circles. Do you know what I'm saying? Like whatever the issue was, this sort of thing that there are people out there spreading, say, pro-Trump misinformation or whatever. And we need to censoring Facebook and meta being involved

and all this kind of stuff. Is there a, you know, is there a just like sort of censorious, we need to de-platform people on campuses becomes a very useful tool for Z. Zionists once they're the ones who want to paint themselves as marginalized and under threat. Was there a kind of creep from like a bleed from one set of concerns to where we're at now? So what happened is like Donald Trump's elected, the media is like, this is because of Facebook. This certainly has nothing to do with the structural problems in our, you know, society and economy and the Democratic Party's, you know, failure to listen to the people. Yeah. Hillary was amazing and everyone loved her, but then Facebook came along. Big bad. Facebook. And listen, Facebook is evil.

I'm not going to defend Facebook. But it was this focus of like speech on Facebook. Like speech on the internet is what led to Donald Trump. So if we censor speech on the internet, we won't have Donald Trump. And so they really got a lot of like leftists and liberals, primarily like liberals, of course, to believe in this. And so you saw these nonstop articles like throughout, you know, 2017 to 2020 about like misinformation, misinformation. Even throughout the early days of COVID. There were experts all of a sudden.

Exactly. And, you know, it was really like the misinformation industrial complex. You started to see the holes in this very quickly, actually, I think, like from COVID, where, again, Joe Biden, they started lying to the American public, telling them that, I mean, obviously pro vaccines, we love vaccines, get as many vaccines as you can. Okay, we love vaccines. But the COVID vaccines that we have currently are not sterilizing. They lied to the public about that quite, you know, effectively in 2021, telling them it was

impossible to get COVID if you were vaccinated. And that's when you started to see. Unfortunately, that funneled a lot of leftists since the anti-vax movement because they were like, well, if the government lies about this, what else are they lying about? It's like, guys, the government will lie about anything to get you guys back to work. It has nothing to do with vacu- like we have, get vaccinated, okay, still. No vaccine is going to be perfect. But, but they, and then minimizing COVID and then climate stuff, it was clear. There was a leash Joshi who got up in front of the press conference. If you guys remember her, the climate activist who started to call the Biden administration out on hypocrisy about climate. So they were like already mad at TikTok for

disabled people saying, hey, by the way, the pandemic is ongoing. They were mad at these Gen Z climate activists saying, by the way, you're going back on all these climate promises that you lie, you know, you're lying about. So there was all these other issues. People punching holes in their narrative about the economy. And so that's when you start to see people be like, wait, maybe the stuff that the government is saying is misinformation. But by then the misinformation panic was so right-coded. When I started my free speech Friday series, which is like, I talk about like civil liberties. People were like tweeting like she's grifting to the right.

She's grifting to the right. Because I'm talking about free speech and anti-surveillance laws, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Because it's so right-coded. And I think now since Palestine, like leftists understand it. But liberals still want top down. They still think the New York Times should be able to delete, you know, anyone's content on the internet if it doesn't agree with that.

Yeah. They think the New York Times editorial board is the arbiters of all that is true. And it is, it's, I've come to the. conclusion that it's impossible to convince most liberals of of anything if that thing is in any way connected to the right wing. If they can connect it to the right wing, they go, no, no, no, no, I can't. I don't believe it. And so they still want to believe that Joe Rogan is more dangerous to American well-being and health and democracy than their own government and the mainstream media institutions that that they believe in.

stenographers. Like I remember Joni Mitchell and Neil Young, two Canadian music areas of mine, taking their stuff off of Spotify because Joe Rogan was on there. I'm like, if we had this much passion for like canceling government officials who try to pretend there are allies, especially and remember that in an election year and stick to that, we might have something here. But it all just looks so foolish in retrospect and worse than foolish because of the way that Zionists have been able to flip that and exploit it, you know, because when you, when you decide that my version of things is the only version and anyone who, anyway, whatever, I'm preaching to the choir. Daniel, I think you made such a good point, which is like, I think each side wants to censor the

other side. And I do think a lot more people on the left should have, it was a very unpopular thing to say. But instead of saying, like, it's good that we ban, you know, the XYZ bad person off the internet, we should have said, we need more transparency here. Because the reality is, and I know it's like most of the conservative whining about like being deplatformed and canceled is total BS. They actually get amplified significantly more than the left on social media platforms, especially since Yale and must gover. But there were examples. I mean, I did talk to people myself for stories that were getting deplatformed that shouldn't have been. And I think that we should have had more solidarity and been like, listen, these tech platforms should not have this amount of power

without more transparency. Let's push for transparency laws. Let's push for more competition in the internet space. Like, sorry, just one other thing, too. The only reason that the TikTok was forced to sell it back in 2017 when it was musically, it could have sold to Viacom or it could have sold to bite dance, which, by the way, the government tacitly signed off on the bite dance deal. It didn't go through Syfias review, but they were like, fine, sell to some Chinese company. We don't care. Is because META was driving it out of business. We should prosecute META for anti-compet. competitive behavior and we would have a lot, you know, a lot more places to sort of speak online.

Yeah. But we don't. Speaking of, you know, trying to pass bills in order to like rain in big tech and stuff, I have some good news in that people are trying to finally reign in big tech through legislation. Specifically, Joseph Gordon Levitt, who is going to help the little man. and all of us here in Little Man World by repealing Section 230. Can you talk to us about Section 230? Because this is, to me, a fascinating little bit of gaslighting that we've been seeing, you know, recently.

But more than, you know, for the past few years when it comes to any time a discussion of repealing or weakening Section 230 comes up, it comes with all of this. gaslighting. Like the arguments are like repealing Section 230 would devastate big tech and online pedophilia and destroy hate speech against marginalized groups. Yet the people who are trying to repeal it are big tech companies like META, hate speech purveyors like the Heritage Foundation, and pedophiles like anyone who supports the state of Israel. Can you explain why this is?

Yeah. And in your answer, can you give a very basic, uh, primer on what... It's a primer or primer on what Section 230 is? Sure. Section 230 is known as the law that created the Internet. It is the most important foundational Internet law ever written. It's actually the 30th anniversary of the law this month, which they're trying to use as sort of like a peg to repeal it.

It basically says that you are the speaker. It protects user-generated content. So it really is what created the Internet. Without Section 230, every single... Like, there would be no way to have free speech online. This is why Section 230 is sort of colloquially known as the First Amendment for the Internet. So it may, it's like, Matt, if you say something, you are held liable, not your web service provider, not your hosting platform. And now that doesn't mean if you say illegal speech or speech that, you know, meets the, yeah, like if you're saying illegal speech, there are still, yeah.

There are still laws on the internet. Like people acting like they. People who say they want to repeal Section 230 seem to frame it as otherwise people can do anything on the internet. And it's like, no, people get arrested for, you know, child sexual abuse material all the time or for, you know, selling drugs. Like, you can still. Or harassment and abuse. Yeah. Like, if you want to take a Google.

Am I still allowed to tweet fire from a crowded theater? Yes. You can tweet whatever you want. You can say fire at a crowded theater as well, again, because we have the First Amendment. But it's like the whole thing is just is absurd. And as you mentioned, it's actually like it's these far right religious fundamentalist groups that have been basically working on this campaign for years. And they had no luck for years.

And I just want to say also, before I move on for Section 230, Section 230 also protects the ability of these platforms to do content moderation. So Section 230 is the reason why a BDSM forum can be moderated differently than like a kids club penguin zone or whatever, you know, like without Section 230, that wouldn't be possible. So Section 230, not only do we want to... Much to the chagrin of people who are into penguin via DSM. That's right, exactly. But I just can't stress enough how much we do not want to reform Section 230. We do not want to repeal Section 230. Section 230, we should, we shouldn't be doing anything except passing laws to strengthen it. And for some reason, you know, these people

have gotten a lot of traction by saying, but it protects big tech because it means that Facebook can't be sued for speech on it. Well, that's actually good because if you say something bad on Facebook, you don't want to create a world, which is what would happen without Section 230, where Facebook is pre-screening and pre-censoring every single comment before it goes up with AI, which is, by the way, also why all of this is happening now, because Big Tech actually has the capability to pre-screen mass amounts of content. So Big Tech is like, oh, yeah, repeal Section 230,

because we can still pre-screen everything. But this small, you know, social media platform for cancer patients, they don't have this capability of pre-screen. Not only that, but they also can withstand litigation. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. These big tech companies are completely protected because if they were to be sued for one

reason or another, they would probably make it out okay, whereas any single little new startup, new tech platform that comes out, they would not survive. They cannot survive. So it consolidates the power of the social media companies. Our internet experiences are dominated by these big platforms, right? But a lot of the internet is actually not profit-driven spaces. Like they are these cancer patient forums, they're addiction forums, they're actually forums where girls can get help with reproductive health information or trans communities, et cetera. And so when you remove these protections, you drive all of those places

under, you know, out of business. Essentially, they can't afford, you know, they can't be, these communities can't be run. And it consolidates power in big tech. This is why not only has Mark Zuckerberg supported Section 230 reform, but they Facebook produced a white paper on why they should do it. Like, Meta has been lobbying for this. Now, we've only successfully, these bad far right fundamentalist groups have only, they really recognized, again, it all goes back to the tech lash. In 2017, they were like, ooh, you guys say you hate big tech. Like, we've been trying, like, they basically were like, you know, we've been trying to

destroy this law that is foundational to the internet forever. And now we have a bunch of liberals that are saying that, they hate big tech, and we're going to just say this is cracking down on big tech. Right. They passed what's called Fasta Sesta, which was the first major carve out to Section 230. Fossa Sesta is actually an amendment to Section 230. And it was aimed at cracking down on big tech, making the Internet safer. Of course, this was all a scheme from authoritarian, Zionists, you know, powerful people, partnering.

Amy Schumer. She was the face of it. She was the face of all of this, which is so crazy. People don't remember. Like, these people are just always, always there. They're always there. So they were successful, actually, because liberals gone on board. There was no backlash.

I mean, sex workers, trans people, abortion activists were, like, screaming about it. They were doing everything. But the reality is, it's like this mainstream liberal media, like, doesn't listen to them. And they had even more power back in 2017. This was like the Washington Post was at it. peak. Now, the amendment to Fostas, Sesta, to Section 230 through Foste Sestre was

basically what made it so that Craigslist had to moderate things like Backpage, you know, sex workers. Backpage was owned by the village voice media.

Right, right, right. And then Craigslist and then there's back page and then there's, yes, Craiglis had to remove their personal section. But so basically, vast, what the carve out was was like, the whole thing was like, we have to prevent sex trafficking by removing sex trafficking content from the internet. What's sex

trafficking content? Well, reproductive justice content. Trans people. Sex workers, you know, just trying to do fetish content, like legally. Like, this is all legal speech. And what really pisses me off is like, you know, Joseph Gordon Levitt being like, oh, he wants a full

repeal of Section 230. But these people that now their new word is reform, because they know that repeal is like sort of politically toxic. You're like, oh, just want to reform it. We had that we did all of these reforms that they claim they want now. We did back in 2018 when Fossus has so went to. This is what shut down Tumblr as well, because they had to remove, you know, they started to remove porn. Do you think big tech has gotten more or less powerful since 2018? Right. Since they got this carve out, has it, since we chipped away at section 230 protections in 2018, has big tech gotten more or less powerful? Right. And more so I did

have sex workers become safer or less safe? No. It drove 10, according to some reports, 10% of all sex workers in America were driven into homelessness because of Fossa Sesta. I can't explain what this did to the sex work world. It's unconscionable. But also LGBT people, also disabled people, also, you know, all these groups. Right. Also, there's more violence against sex workers due to the fact that they could not screen, you know, people, clients. And because of Fasta Sesta that made it so screening wasn't possible to do.

So people who are in sex work are, you know, experiencing more violence. It's just like the way in which it is completely, quote, backfired, if you believe, take a good faith, the reason for Fostasesta. It should, at least for any thinking person, cause you to question, well, why would anyone want to continue trying to, peel back protections from Section 230 or repeal it at all because clearly it does not do any of the things that you claim it's going to do in the lead up to trying to repeal it. So what is the actual reason behind it? And is it because Mark Zuckerberg wants to make the whole internet, Facebook.com? Yeah, literally. And I mean, it's a big tech power grab, which is why it's so offensive. of like, you know, Joseph Gordon-Levick getting up in front of the Senate saying he wants to

this repeal, repeal, full-on repeal, 100 to zero. Like, he's like, you got to yelling at them. And then he has this huge sign in front of him, hold big tech accountable. It's just like, you guys are so stupid. You guys probably think that the Patriot Act, you know, was an amazing thing that helped all of, you know, patriotism in America and like, wow, what an amazing law, you know. Right. Please, they name all of the most evil laws, like the protecting society from, you know,

evil act or whatever, and it's like the worst surveillance law you've ever seen. But this is Joseph Woodo. There he is. Third head full of rocks from the sun. He looks great. Just deranged. And it's like, I mean, he's also like,

so one of the main crusaders, aside from the Heritage Foundation, is Nicosi, the National Center for Exploitation Something. They renamed themselves. Until a few years ago, they were known as morality in media. They are a virulent anti-LGBQ hate group that is, I can't even explain the level of hateful sort of conversion therapy

types of, like this is a far right religious fundamentalist group. And they're excitedly tweeting videos of, you know, Joseph Gordon Levitt, like, so happy that he's, you know, speaking out. Yeah. And this is what we saw with Amy Schumer, too. It's like, you guys claim to be liberal. You're posting on your Instagram account how you're like anti-ice. Do you think we're going to be allowed to speak out against ice? Like, right. You're crazy. surprised. I always thought that like protecting constitutional rights was a bit like horticulture. Like sometimes in order to help a plant grow, you have to clip it, snip it back, you know? Yeah, that's right. You have to clip off something and they replant it. And then it gets more strong.

But no, it turns out that when you clip it, it hurts it. Yeah. As it turns out, you can't just start lopping off pieces of civil liberties and hoping it'll grow into something stronger. My favorite thing also. Yeah. Yeah. What he said, he keeps going, guys, it passed 30 years ago. It's time to repeal it. Past 30 years ago. It's time to repeal it. It passed 30 years ago. it's completely out of date. And somebody in my YouTube that's older than my girlfriend. Wait until, yeah,

wait until he finds out like when the Bill of Rights passed, you know? Yeah, has anyone checked the expiry, the best before date on habeas corpus? Right, yeah, exactly.

This law is constantly reaffirmed very famously through like major constitutional legal cases. Right. And we just had, I don't think he actually even knows about Fasta Sesta, but like, it's just so crazy to me

because it's like, everyone said all this with Fasta Sesta. Fasta Sesta passed, which is all the stuff that he wants to do now. It's like, guys, we did that in 2018. Right.

Everything, everyone said bad would happen, happened. And now you want to do it to an even more extreme. But it's all about, you know, I think Matt or Daniel, you're asking like sort of what's this for? It's about it's very tied in. And I think the reason a lot of senators have gotten on board with it since October 7th is because it's all about just mass censorship of online speech and surveillance. Yes. Yeah. And speaking of senators.

Yeah. I mean, Amy Schumer's a famous and somehow less powerful cousin, Chuck Schumer, was talking about this in 2022. This is from the Hill. Schumer opened to reforming tech liability protections amid rising hate speech on Twitter. This is in 2022. And in 2022, he was doing this for the same reason that he's going to continue trying to do this now, which was when they talk about hate speech online. And if you're listening to this podcast, you already know this. You must know this.

But when people are saying, we got to, you know, stop all of this hate speech online, the people who will be affected by that are you. The people who will be affected by that are anyone who believes in Palestinian human rights and anyone who wants to call out genocide and apartheid when they see it. This is what he's doing it for. And he has made that clear multiple times. You know, this is Amy, sorry, Chuck Schumer. recently uh... fight for aid to israel all the aid that israel needs i will continue to fight for it and we delivered more security assistance to israel our ally under my leadership than ever ever before shout out by the way to amy schumer's much cooler relative her brother

who i ran into once who's very woke on palestine i met him at a palestine concert Palestinian music concert. Was he a fan of the podcast or just a fan of you? I forget. It might have been prior to the podcast. In fact, it was the month before I first came on the podcast that I met him. Okay. I mean, cool.

That's great. I'm glad that he likes you. He's a jazz saxophonist. Yeah. Well, that's awesome. The one cool schumer. But yeah, I mean, this is a fight that has been going on, you know, pre-October 7th with people on the, I mean, not the left.

I mean, Democrats trying to attack Section 230 in order to, quote, limit hate speech or, you know, limit misinformation. Now with, you know, we're in 2026 and you know that when they talk about misinformation, when they talk about hate speech, they are talking about us. They're talking about anyone who is, you know, who dares to criticize the state of Israel. And it seems to be like this union between these two. ostensibly, it's the same far-right, you know, gul, which is the only reason to support Israel's, you know, comes from this really far-right ideology, Zionism. The only reason to support, you know, big tech, it's the same thing. It is all about capital at the end of the day. And that is who benefits from trying to destroy these protections. And also your, you're, you know,

Your privacy as well. I'm sorry, Taylor, go on. I just want to say, too, like, there's been two effective narratives that have targeted the left. And I think that the whole, the big tech accountable one, I think, and the hate speech and misinformation, like, I think that enough leftists since October 7th are like, okay, we're clocking it, right? Like, we understand now what you mean of, like, the, because we've all dealt with, like,

the censorship sort of directly. But one thing that the left continues, unfortunately, sort of on a broad basis to buy into is this moral panic about social media and this concept of social media addiction, which Joseph Gordon-Levett actually mentions in that Section 230's speech, where it's all about protecting the children. Children are having a mass mental health crisis because of social media. Now, never mind that every single top researcher who studies this topic, who has dedicated years and years and years of their lives at Princeton, UNC, et cetera, et cetera, came together and issued a massive 82-page report last year saying there is absolutely

no evidence of any of this mental health crisis among youth being caused by social media. In fact, we know the causes. They're economic, they're systemic, they're systemic, They're all of these other things. And if you care about children, you would be fixing this, but you don't care about children. You want to ban their phones. And that's the thing. And that doesn't mean that these tech companies are good. They're evil.

They are harvesting your attention for profit. Yes. But when you get on board with the addiction framing, you are helping big tech in two ways. Number one, we know that viewing sort of social media use as addiction actually makes it harder, almost impossible to moderate your own use. So it's a very convenient narrative for them in that way. But number two, it means that you should regulate speech, online speech, similar to illicit substances. And that is a very insane regulatory framework to put around online speech and content.

But when these leftists say, oh, social media addiction, social media addiction, stop saying that. Because you guys are literally manufacturing consent for them to regulate speech like alcohol, where you have to show your ID before you say it. You have to, you know, like you have to be 18 to say it. Like, we don't want that. And if we actually want to crack down on... You're going to have kids waiting, like, outside of, I don't know, wherever is with their phones being asking adults to, like, go in, like, post something for them.

The adults won't get in either. Because, like, I mean, as we know with these identity verification laws, too, like, they're shutting out mass amounts of adults. But, like, if you actually care about cracking down on big tech, not only should we do it through antitrust regulation and all that stuff, but also data privacy reform, the reason these algorithms are so, like, hyper sort of addicting and predatory, however you want to frame it, I don't. like the addiction framework, but they're certainly engaging,

it's because they're harvesting mass amounts of your data, and they know exactly what to target you with at the exact right time. And if you want to fix that problem, you've got to do the opposite of what Joseph Gordon-Levitt is saying and stop regulating speech, but start regulating these companies in meaningful ways. Yeah. And I would also just say to all the parents out there

and all the people moral panicking, I'm, I have some conservative in me in terms of the sense of like worrying about the emotional effect on kids about, you know, because like, but why do I worry about, that because I'm worried about the social and emotional effects on me. I observe myself with social media. And what I'm,

what I can't believe is the, a friend pointed this out. They watched the show adolescence, you know? Which is, by the way, and it's supposed to show like the crisis of whatever. But where are all the, but in the show,

where are all the adults with their faces in their fucking friends? Like kids are surrounded by parents. I see, you know, you see parents who are parenting, they're walking their kids. kids in the stroller. They're fucking on their phones. Like, if we actually want to worry about this, like, look at what you're modeling. And like, are you, are you, like, no, wait,

wait, sorry, we have to. The adolescence thing drives me crazy because I did a whole, like, media tour around this. Guys, adolescence is fiction. Okay, that's like watching euphoria and having like a mental breakdown over it. Like, I'm not kidding you. Adolescence is fiction. That is a fictionalized, highly dramatized show that for whatever reason, the media continues. I was on TV one time when they were calling it a documentary. Like, guys, this is fiction. This is like, again, watch like Dawson's Creek and get, you know, freaked out because children are, you know, doing whatever.

Like, this is fiction. Now, are there problems with social media? Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. But all of this stuff is bullshit. Like, I'm sorry. And part of it is about the content. Daniel, why are you getting upset when you're looking at, you know, nonstop videos of ICE agents, like assaulting people on the street and like people being shot to death?

like in front of you, like, because that's upsetting things happening in the world. And we need to fix a lot of these systemic problems and give users more control over their online experience that they aren't inherently shown those things. If they don't want to see it. I'm honestly, I'm more emotionally damaged by the constant stream of like trauma maxing, like therapy videos. Like, here's how to know if your woman is this or your man is this or, you know, astrology videos.

Like it's, and the fact that I can't stop. Astrology videos are making. Libras be like, and I'm like, oh, I'm a Libra. What do I be like? Taurus do be like that? I got framed mug. But I just like want us to not have these reactionary emotional things because fundamentally it's about the content.

And you know, by the way, I said this a lot with the TikTok ban. Daniel, what you say, right, what you said all that of how it makes you unhappy. It's not social media itself that's making you unhappy. It's not that it is the content on social media. If it was just giving you nonstop Wikipedia articles, you wouldn't. feel that way, right? You're feeling this way because of the content. And there is a constant moral panics about content throughout history. And again, I'm not arguing that these feeds are good. I think they're bad in so many ways. They're designed to, you know, generate outrage and stuff.

But that is because we don't have data privacy reform. That is because we don't have transparency, a lot of that is because we don't have like any control over our own online experience. Yeah. Well, we need to talk more about this. But first, we need to take a little bit of a break. So everyone, please stick around. We'll be right back. And we're back. This is Bad As Barra here with Taylor Lorenz. How are you doing, Taylor? Good, good. Very good. We just talked a bit about that show, Adolescence, and just to round out that subject and, you know, talking about all of the surveillance state that is going to be created out of this vacuum where Section 230 used to be. I mean, right now, one thing we are seeing that you've also talked about is the end of privacy online. Discord is going to, it's possible they might start requiring face ID in order to get in to a Discord server.

And recently it was reported that Meta is trying to quietly add back a facial recognition technology service to their like dorky internet glasses. glasses. According to an article by a New York Times reporter and frequent guest of Pod Yourself a Gun, the World's Only Soprano, The Wire, and Mad Men rewatch podcast, Mike Isaac. The meta plans to add facial recognition technology and its smart glasses. The feature internally is called name tag and will let wares of smart glasses identify people and get information about them via meta's artificial intelligence assistant. People talk a lot about privacy on the internet as it relates to, I mean, just general privacy, but also as it relates to the state of Israel and the way in which they run their surveillance state.

Can you talk about that a little bit, Taylor? Because I know you've touched on the connection between surveillance and Gaza and surveillance in the United States. Yeah. I think what's so scary is like, I mean, it is very much like the imperial boomerang thing where it's like we see this type of mass surveillance technology in. action. Like, we know how Palestinians have no anonymity on the internet, how they do have to verify like everything, how they are surveilled to such obscene degrees by the state of Israel. And they live

inside this like digital panopticon 24-7. Right. And that exists already in the world in Israel. And that is what they are now trying to enact on the American public. And I just think like we have to look and look at how that is used. That is not used to protect the Palestinians. That's not used to help them. That's not keeping Palestinian children safe. It is creating this like carceral sort of structure that they can, where speech is criminalized and surveillance is, you know, 24-7, and they can sort of get you on anything. I mean, we see also in Israel people are arrested for social media posts, criticizing the state of Israel. Like that is what, like, Israel is just so much of this like nightmare mass surveillance hellscape. And we should be looking at that in horror,

not saying, oh, cool tech, how can we bring that here? Which is what our government seems to be doing. Right. Yeah. And it's crazy because it's like if you want to see the end result of what the big tech companies and our government are trying to accomplish, just look at Gaza. And I'm not trying to say that to be dramatic. I'm not trying to say like, you know, this is, this is, I'm not exaggerating. this is the use and the use case for this type of surveillance. And you can pretend like, oh, well, no, I mean, I don't know how you can pretend that the laws would never, you know, apply to you.

Like, oh, no, I'm good. This would only be for criminals. It's never only for criminals. They very specifically think you're a criminal if they don't like the things that you say. Matt, there's a flaw in your reasoning, though. Oh, please, please. If it were true that somehow Israel's mass surveillance is the, like the pinnacle of that accomplishment, well, then, my friend, the Israeli government would have known what was going to happen on October 7th in advance,

or they would have known much more quickly than they responded. And, I mean, checkmate. You know, you can't respond to that because we know that they would never sit on that and they would never, you know, you know, exploited. in any way. They had no advanced knowledge, obviously. No, that's akin to Holocaust to the Nile to say that somehow in the most surveilled area in the world

that they knew nothing about what was happening. But yes, it is interesting to see how this relates to the way in which Israel props itself up as this tech haven. And we've talked about this

from the beginning of this podcast. I mean, the fucking theme song of this podcast is about the Israeli Hasbara of We invented everything that's cool and mostly like tech bullshit. And I want to just show you a tweet from At Israel,

my favorite follow on X, the Everything app. At Israel posted this picture that was created by ChatGPT and I'll do a zoom in so you see it closer and it says, chat understood the assignment and it's a picture of an Israeli flag with a hoodie that's a startup nation on it.

Do they understand what it means to say chat understood something? I mean, doesn't that mean your comment section on a live stream? It's either they have a misunderstanding of that or they think chat is it is Chad GPD's first name? I, I, I, I, who knows? It's hard to know. I think it's possible they forgot the GPT part of it. I do not know.

It's, it's Israel. I think they think it's pronounced. Hot GPT. So if you look closely at this image created by AI, there's multiple things. The flag is saying 3,000 years old, still beta testing. On the top left corner, you see solving problems before falafel and a picture of a, I guess that's like the Waze GPS app.

What does that mean? Before you try to solve falafel, you try to solve problems? or it's your pre-filafel, it's your pre-meal ritual. Famous Israeli food falafel. Right, yeah, exactly. As all Israeli parents say to their kids, if you don't solve your problems, you can't have any falafel. That was right.

Don't talk to me until I've had my falafel. Just me sipping falafel out of a cup. You don't know what's so crazy. But can I say something like, yes. It is so enticing. like, this lifestyle that's being projected in this image, like, there's a lot of young tech people. And I remember being in Israel and thinking this as well.

And talking to friends that worked in Israel and many of them have had like come to Jesus moments now. Thank God. But like it is this like, it seems awesome. It seems like sort of like San Francisco, but on the beach. Like we love technology. You can code and then you can hit and the weather is perfect and the food is good. and just don't think about anything and everything's cheap. So, like, they, I do think that they, like, that propaganda is so strong and especially

in the tech industry. Like, young tech people now, like, as we've seen with tech for Palestine and stuff, like, are starting to change. But, like, I know that they pretend to, like, make everything up and they pretend that they invented a lot of things, but they really have invented a lot of technology. And it is, like, it cannot be understated that, like, it is. I mean, and it's like one of the. sort of more frightening things about it too is that when we talk about you know internet privacy

for example all of the VPN companies oh tell me about it they're all Israeli and and it's just you you can't even escape not boycat VPN not boycat VPN not sponsored but they're what is that a non a non-Israeli VPN is it Palestinian yeah it's it's it's awesome support them they just launched I have no sponsorship but I just love it. the founder. I think it's part of like the tech for Palestine stuff. It's called Boycat. They're great. I love that. I love that. Well, we'll put that in the in the description too in case anyone's looking for a VPN that isn't run by Israel. But yeah, I mean, I have a stray joke from about 90 seconds ago. Do it. If it's just, the tech San Francisco people find it very appealing. Like you said,

it is very appealing. You know, it's like come to Israel, tech on the beach. innovation. It's burning man all year long, except it's burning man, women, and child. Oh, there we go. There we go. Yes, yes. It's all the burns. But yeah, I mean, it's not to understate their accomplishments in creating, you know, software and also military hardware. But I think, you know, the funny thing about the way in which they portray themselves is the apps that they usually point out like Waze, right, you know, or VPN, a lot of these apps are part and parcel of a military project. And so how are we going to reoccupy Gaza?

Oh, we have ways. Yeah. But it's like the. So this I guess we need to like lose our techno futurist idea I mean I don't have any but if anyone

did if anyone looks at tech the way that young people did in like 2010 San Francisco just is important to have this understanding that you are you're essentially just like rooting on the

Terminator that's what everything is to me it's all the Terminator to me But you don't have to be anti-ta... I'm a tech. I'm a tech person. Like, I love technology. Well, it's not about being anti-tech. But I think a lot of people, like, feel that way because it feels so overwhelming.

But it has been really cool. Like, to me, like, something that I think has been so great. Really over the past year is, like, all these alternative products that people are building. Or, like, Isam, the founder of Upskroll. I know Upskrolls. I know Upskrolls really glitchy. It's not as great as Twitter. But, like, it is cool to see people kind of like trying to, like, build.

Because the right, let's not forget, really built a very effective alternative. alternative platform ecosystem. And we have not had that on the left. Yeah, no, no. I mean, this is the ultimate problem with the left and liberals. And I think it's more of a problem with the liberal institutions than it is the left because it's the amount of liberals who just defer to their own institutional media or their own platforms and all of that as the setting the standard for what the left should be.

And it's like, okay, so what we actually have is a just a pro-capital institutions landscape that does not have any beliefs in anything. You just think it's liberal because eventually they decided that, okay, gay people are a market. We can sell stuff to. You think it's liberal, but then what you have is. this whole other landscape that is all right wing, that is all, you know, either openly white nationalist or just openly disgusting towards every single marginalized group that you claim to, that you, you know, support. So yeah, it is a big problem of liberals and liberal

institutions. But it's hard, though, for liberals, especially millennial liberals, you know, to get anything done, to invent anything when they're too busy splurging on avocado toast and rotissory chicken. Oh my God. All the time. Did you see that rotissory chicken? No, did they add rotissary chicken to that? It was about millennials writ large, but obviously they mean urban, you know, leftist or liberal millennial layabouts, right? And they're like, despite rising amounts of student debt, millennials are splurging on rotissory chicken, which is one of the best ways to get like protein per pound per dollar out there.

I love that. It's like the new let them eat cake. Except you're mad at them for eating cake. Despite the times young people continue to eat, that's so true. Moving on to speaking of me hating liberals, I want to talk about a former liberal who still considers herself a current liberal. Brianna Wu. Are you familiar with Brianna Wu Taylor? Very familiar. Yes. Kind of a tech tech origin story, right? Was she in tech? Gamergate.

Gamergate. Right. Yes, yes. So obviously we've been covering a lot of Breonna Wu on this show since October 7th because she made this huge pivot to being pro genocide. Yeah, Brianna Joyless Gray as producer Adam labels her. She just had a new tweet recently. So James Vanderbeek of Dr.

Austin's Creek died recently of cancer, which I didn't know that he had it. Not that I would know. I mean, I'm not his friend or nothing like that. I don't know him personally. He died very tragically. Everyone found out online. That's how I found out. And also, as soon as Breonna Wu found out, she tweeted this. And this is, I've got to say, is one of the most insanely economical, delusional tweets I've seen and I mean that in the sense that every sentence is beautiful here is Brianna

Wu. It's almost like a syllogism of insanity. Like one thing leads to the next, it's all packed, it's like if this then this. You ever read Malloy by Charles Beckett? No. It's just like it's the sort of like long

form rantings of a homeless man with mental problems. It's that. It's the metaculous. Yes. Okay. Breonna Wu.

His family has been left, sorry, I met Samuel Beckett. What did I say? Charles. Fucking idiot. All right. Brianna Wu. His family has been left destitute by trying to pay for cancer treatments. Next paragraph.

When I helped make the progressive movement mainstream, in 2014, the main issue we talked about was Medicare for all. Next paragraph slash sentence. It descended into an anti-Semitic cult trying to destroy Israel. Imagine if we had actually spent the last 12 years fighting for expanded healthcare coverage. We do pay for health care. We pay for health care for Israelis. Oh, shit.

Right on. You know, I think that's the anti-Semitic cult-like statement. that she is fervently fighting against Taylor Lorenz. Someone's been watching a little too much TikTok. That's right. You get your news from TikTok, Mrs. Gen Z? I mean, just breaking this down bit by bit is, we start off with a perfectly great sentence.

The family has been left destitute by trying to pay for cancer treatments. Okay. When I helped make the progressive movement mainstream in 2014, what timeline are you? How well I remember that moment? how well I remember it when Brianna Wu helped make the progressive movement

mainstream. What does that even mean, first of all? Truly, I truly do not know. Brianna Wu is one of those people whose delusions are so intense that you just kind of go like, fuck it, all right? I guess. I guess maybe she was like the first Bernie person. No, she wasn't. She wasn't like a Bernie bro or nothing.

and she was vehemently pro Hillary Clinton. In fact, she was an anti-Burny person. Okay, so when the Hillary Clinton campaign made progressivism mainstream by only talking about Medicare for all. I remember they talked about Medicare for all. They talked about it like a pony. They talked about how it wouldn't cure. Like a pie that lived in the sky. How it wouldn't, yeah, exactly, like a pie that lived in the sky.

Like it wouldn't cure racism? Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. You know, these were important points that helped. mainstream progressivism. I do really love the lawyer speak in the way that she talks about this. Because

what she very specifically says is the main issue we talked about was Medicare for All. She does not say the manner in which they talked about Medicare for All. And then finally, somehow she rounded this into a critique of

pro-Palestinian people. It descended into an anti-Semitic cult trying to destroy Israel. How did we get there from James Vanderbeak of Dawson's Creek died. It's fucking insane to connect this somehow to her loathing of alive Palestinians and the people who want them to remain so. And in the very last breath, in the very last breath there, put it back up, imagine if we'd actually spent the last 12 years fighting for expanded healthcare coverage.

She can't even... Access to health care. Like... She can't even land it with a nice lie. She's just like... Imagine if we'd spent the last 12 years

hammering Romneycare for all. Yes. Imagine if we'd spent 12 years going Medicare for all who want it. Be Buttigieg's style. It's truly beautiful watching someone that delusional

still have the ability to tweet. She's truly the dumbest to ever do it. And I do it. want to point out that as soon as I saw this tweet and I started screaming at my phone, how did you connect the shit to Israel? What are you doing? I saw this from Haarets. Dawson's Creek star James Vanderbeek died at 48, 16 years ago. He found love in Tel Aviv. So, it turns out no matter what. Hamas killed him. I mean, they, they, I mean, all I can say is at real Candace Owens, where are you at?

What do you think happened here? What happened? What happened? I'm just saying. I'm just saying. Taylor, do you find when you go, do you have any colleagues from the past few years post-October 7th who have kind of like lost their mind in this kind of way? What has been your media diet when it comes to this? Because I've personally, I've had to like block a lot of people who are. who started tweeting this way. What about you? What's been your experience with it? I consume so much information for work that I follow a lot of people that I like vehemently disagree with. There's definitely people that I know very well personally that are just, I think, completely brainwashed.

It's insanely pro-Israel. It's cult-like mentality. and I just feel like, damn, I hope you get out of it. Like, I'm not going to try to go down that road. Like, I try to just not engage directly in that way because I think it's unproductive for me to be that messenger. And I just kind of like let other people that know more than me, like, be that messenger. If it's somebody that I know very well, like, I mean, again, like I did not know.

Before October 7th, like I said, I had this like very positive view of Israel, I was so ignorant. And I think if somebody had told me, I mean, I do remember when I reported on Pamela Geller's daughters back in like 2018 or something, and I said something, I used the word Zionist and I didn't even know what it meant. And I do remember somebody at the time, like when I worked at the Atlantic, like, talking to somebody and they're like, oh, you can't use that word. It's anti-Semitic.

And I don't even know what it means. No problem. You know, who cares. And so I... I'm sure Jeffrey Goldberg could have stopped by your office and giving you some demonstrations of what it means on the ground. like Ketsio a prison where he was a guy. I understand what a bubble and people will be mad.

But I have to tell you like if you are a tech reporter specifically. Like from the minute that I started covering, I remember one of the first CEOs that I got to interview was the CEO of Facetune, who's Israeli, like was wonderful and was telling me all about Israel. And so like the propaganda is so strong that like as long as they're not doing hard. And I don't think I was like doing how. I wasn't posting Israel propaganda. I just sort of ignored the issue, which is complicit in its own way.

But, like, I do think there are people that are sort of, like, in their own bubble. But at this point, 2026, I don't have patience for that because I'm just like, come on. At this point, you're not. Like, you're intentionally ignorant. Or you've bought into this, like, real serious propaganda. And you don't want to face the social consequences. I know a lot of other people, too, that, like, they are part of these Jewish communities where, like, they sort of, they just sort of do middle of the road bullshit because they don't want to deal with, like, the social consequences. I think it's pitiful and cowardly, but like...

Yeah, no, I mean, it's... At least you can come up with a logical explanation for it. It's like, it makes sense on an emotional level. You go, okay, well, I guess I'm not in that situation, so I wouldn't know what it's like. It's not plausible deniability, but the denial is plausible. The denial is plausible. Exactly, exactly.

But, yeah, I mean, with regards to sort of the social backlash, or the backlash in general, I want to take a brief detour for our final segment to talk a little bit about both Reddit and about some good press that Daniel and I got. Pretty good. It was pretty good press. Well, it's interesting. So let me explain, Taylor. We were contacted by someone at the Forward, the Jewish Daily Forward, as it used to be called, an all-Yiddish news paper.

paper, right? Yeah, yeah. It was back in the day, it was a Yiddish labor paper. I mean, these guys were... What's that? The furverts. The fauxverts, yes.

And they reached out to talk about our podcast. Apparently, the author of the article, the journalist, his partner listened to the podcast, and you wanted to cover it for the culture section. And hilariously, just for our listeners,

you know how we were haranguing you guys for months to try and get us over the 50,000 subscriber mark. Yeah, that's right. Literally a week after that, this guy writes to us. It's like, and I noticed you just hit 50K on YouTube. It seems like a good opportunity to feature you guys in an interview. So you did it, folks. You out there are the reason that we finally got our first bit of press from the forward.

So it was actually a relatively nice article, but I don't want to cover the article itself. here's what it is. These two anti-Zionist Jews think the Israeli government is so bad. It's funny. It's not the Israeli government that we think is funny. There's all kinds of little misunderstandings and little illusions in the article

and throughout. This is way better of a headline than I thought it was going to be. Oh, no, no, no. The whole article is actually very it's like we're a curious specimen that have an interesting approach. It's nice. It's nice. It's nice. I'm happy about it. We talked to him for an hour. It was a very nice conversation.

Yes. And in terms of the problems I have with the article, you know, maybe we'll get into those in a second. But in general, I was like, okay, this isn't, you know, too bad. And then I got sent some subreddit shit. And I always love getting notified about what Reddit is saying about me because it is basically been nonstop since Ethan Klein attacked me in, like, March or something. So I will get DMs from people and whatnot and be like, oh, there's another post about you on, you know, on Reddit. On our Jewish, we got to talk a little bit about arduous, which is, it is arduous reading through this. But this is.

Harretz is anti-Semitic. Oh, no, the forward and Horatz is anti-Semitic. So this is a post from three days ago. about this article written in the foreword, finally unsubscribe from the forward once and for all. As the subject line says, I finally did it. The last draw for me was the fawning glaze. They gave the Bad As Barra podcast.

And no, I'm not linking that shitty article. Ever since October 7th, I've increasingly felt like the forward has been the American equivalent of Haarets as our very own anti-Semitic Jewish newspaper. And while I definitely lean left, how? Definitely. What do you mean, definitely?

And what do you think? Ha Arets is anti-Semitic. I could not believe my eyes when I just read how much they kissed Lieb and Matte's asses. I feel like I owe the Jewish community an apology for trusting them as long as I did. And of course, a bunch of, you know, comments. I'm sorry, they glazed Matt Lieb? And Daniel, son of Gabor Matae to boot, the guy who denied that any sexual violence had taken place on October 7th. He's a real POS.

Daniel, you definitely didn't do that. But, uh, I, I said there was no evidence. Well, that's, that they're talking, but they might be talking about Gabor there. There's a clip of him, you know, but again, not denying that it happened, but saying there's no evidence. That's right. It was talking about evidence. To a questioner in the audience. who was trying to use the ostensible certainty

that it happened to justify X, Y, Z. When of course, both his and my point were, A, there's no evidence, B, no matter what happened on October 7th, that doesn't justify one bullet being fired into Gaza. Right. I just also want to point out, disastrous elk said, I love Matt Leib.

And yeah, but I just want to talk a little bit to you, Taylor, about Reddit. And I, you know, Reddit seems to have been post-October 7th, a weird breeding ground for, like, takeovers,

hostile takeovers of subreddits that become just completely about Zionism. And these pages being used to harass different people. You've experienced some of this, correct? Well, the Ethan Klein, yeah, line standem that is just 24-7 posting about me. They were posting like really disgusting sexual harassment about me last night,

talking about like all this sex stuff. It's very weird. Last night? Yeah. Wow. My friend sent it to me. It's constant then. It's 24-7 with them. I mean, they're obsessed.

It's like it is very sad for them. But, you know, there are by the way, like I will say that as you know, Israel, as is like the name of the show, like Israel does so much sort of influence type stuff. they have run campaigns where they have, you know, attempted to exert influence over certain subredits. They are very involved in certain subredits, like sort of pro-Israel messengers. So there are influence campaigns on Reddit that are happening. And then you have the also just like the communities that are sort of whipping themselves up into frenzies.

Yeah, yeah. They're delusional, though. It's like, what can you say even? Well, right. I mean, you know, there's these harassment campaigns, you know, a lot of the times are for sure. coming from either, you know, you've got a creator who's against you, a YouTube person who's decided that you're the enemy and whatnot and whipping up their people. But what I've also seen on Reddit that I find fascinating. I don't know if you've done any research into this or should,

maybe you should, but what I have seen is an attempt, a coordinated attempt to get people to post about a specific person that should be harassed. Yes. In order to try to get to the attention of someone who does harassment, like your destinies or your Ethan Klein's and whatnot. Yeah. Sometimes I do wonder, and I say this without evidence, how much of this is a way to smear and discredit social media people,

like us, you know, online people like us, without having to take the normal Canary Mission route of like, oh, you'll never get, you know, hired again with a Canary Mission profile. For people who are self-funded like us, it's like, how do you go after someone? Well, they contacted all my advertisers. Right. They mass report my advertisers. They harass my advertisers. They harassed any brand that I partner with. They harass every, some podcast that I go on to the point that like, it's affected my like ability to do speaking engagements. It's affected my, like, it is deep that is their ultimate goal. And yes, they also feed stuff to, you know, Zionists and crazy Fox News, you know, articles

or New York Coast or whatever. Like, I mean, I dealt with this constantly. I think part of the reason I wanted to go independent is so that I could actually respond to this stuff. Because when I worked in mainstream media, like, you were never allowed to respond, even when they were just, like, lying and stuff. And so I just think, like, you have to respond aggressively to this stuff and call it out because if you don't, you create this sort of like vacuum.

and it's just their narrative that's spreading. But it's just like Gamergate type shit, you know, right? It's just like mass mobilization to like smear you. And they're often trying to smear you through the New York Times, through, you know, NPR, my fucking Nenemesis, this old-ass Zionist guy at NPR that, you know, writes like hit pieces about me, just flat out lies. Oh, I don't think I know about this. I have so many feuds in like stupid things. You have a nemesis at NPR. I have nemesis, nemesi all over.

I have this like cadre of media reporters, including, you know, Dylan Byers, others, who is a pathological liar, where they don't have any sort of standards to their journalism. They will happily make up sources. They will lie. They will knowingly print false information as long as it's in service of whatever their political ideology is. Unfortunately, that's a huge part of the mainstream media is people like that. Not, I will say, not the tech reporters I know are really good tech reporters, but like media type reporter, people like that. Like, I mean, look at what you. guys have dealt with. Like, I think the media reporters have been so complicit in so much of this because they exist to prop up institutional media and so many of them knowingly smear independent media because it's a threat to them. And so they just kind of like go along with these harassment campaigns and they knowingly print false information. And when was the turning point? Sorry, not to use that phrase, but the, because I don't remember thinking of you as someone that mainstream media would attack. And in fact, and then more recently,

well, I guess I just maybe wasn't following closely enough. But I mean, for instance, like, I woke up one day and you were on Glenn Greenwald's show. And it was interesting to me because I remember you guys as kind of having it out sometimes. Not me. He decided. Yeah.

Well, listen, this is a common arc. So I think my haters should take note. You know, Glenn Greenwald had a meltdown about me back in 2020 saying I was a woke mainstream journal, whatever, whatever. He wrote this like 3,000 word fan fiction about me, like just false information on his substack, whatever. I was like, that's crazy. None of this is true. You're delusional.

I'll see you when you decide to apologize. When you wake up and realize that this entire persona that you've created about me is fake. Guess what? It took him five years he did. He apologized. We're cool now. All good, Glenn Greenwald. But, you know, like there's a lot of that on the right where it's like people hating me because they are exposed to some caricature of me.

And I think since I've been able to go independent, I'm able to speak for myself now. And it has sort of taken the wind out of a lot of those people's sales because I can respond and be like, fuck you, you're wrong. And here's the receipts or here's my actual stance on things. Stop trying to mischaracterize. And when you're in the mainstream media, you can't do that.

You just have to take the reputational damage over and over and over again while you work for the New York Times because the New York Times doesn't want you to be able to respond. And I will say, like, more, you know, when I was in the mainstream media like full time, too, it was like, a lot of it was like right wing media. So it was like, it was mainstream media,

but it was like Fox News. Like Tucker Carlson was doing those like almost nightly segments that was at some point about me and like, you know, called me the Che Guevara of the Biden administration. As if I don't fucking hate Joe Biden more than Tucker Carlson. Or as if any of that makes any sense whatsoever. But they were like constantly trying to like frame me as this like,

I don't know. She's the Roger Rabbit of the. Yeah, exactly. But it was more like right wing media. And then like, but I did. always have. I think I have a lot of jealousy. I think there's a lot of media reporters that don't

understand the internet. Their job covering, I mean, CBS is relevant now, but primarily most of these media reporters, they just write about like television news. It's declining. It's a loser medium. They're writing about loser people. They are losers. And guess what? They're going to be out of a job in 10 years. And I'm going to be so thrilled to watch them fail. Hell yeah. Baying New York Times. There's a lot of professional jealousy. When I got my job at the New York Times, They were so pissed. These people were like openly on Twitter like crashing out. How dare they hire Taylor Lorenzo.

And it's like, well, I'm sorry that I worked harder than you, broke more stories than you, and actually understand the internet in a way that you never have and don't care to even learn. Right. Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's interesting, I think, seeing that kind of harassment be so I guess almost like ideologically ubiquitous. Because you are someone who other than, I think the, I mean, maybe the left is gone after you too. Sometimes I do say dumb things. Sometimes I deserve it. Well, sometimes people deserve. We all do. We all do. We all do a dumb tweet every once in a while.

Keeps us honest. Yeah, it keeps us honest. But yeah, it's been, you know, I've very much enjoyed seeing your success as a independent journalist. And I think it is good that you have the ability to actually, yeah, address these insane narratives that come out about you. And I appreciate. I appreciate the work that you do. Also, thank you, Matt. Also, I think sometimes controversy is good. Like sometimes, especially with this surveillance stuff, I've been so frustrated by the left. And, you know, all these people were mad at me last week because I tweeted like, leftists don't care about tech policy or whatever.

And they're like, actually, you know, this needs to be. group actually does. It's like, okay, well, that niche group is not 99% of people to the left of center, unfortunately, for you. Like, and I think it's like sometimes you kind of have to trigger people to like make people mad so that you can get people like sort of force these things into the conversation. And I don't mind engaging in that way if it gets the point across kind of. Sure. I feel like you probably feel that way too with like Zion is it's like sometimes you just have to be a little inflammatory to kind of make people mad and like poke the bear a little bit. It's my favorite thing to do.

One of the things I liked about the article about us is that it kept some of the irritating things about us intact, like the deliberately irritating things because we're trying to irritate something. We are. And it's doing it for a Jewish audience, right? It's pushing the envelope of who will even consider dealing with the reality that something like us exists because it has to exist because reality called it into existence. And it didn't try to undercut our project. you know, a little here and there. Like we had our quibbles with it, which I might speak about some time. He said Israeli government throughout

like half the thing. And he's just like, oh no. It misattributed to me. Israeli people is what I said. I said my usual line. Yeah, Israeli, yeah. Well, Israeli. Israel. Israel. Israel. Israel. Yeah, yeah. We think the whole thing is absurd and shouldn't exist.

You know, it misattributed to me some definition of Zionism where I said, it's the refusal to heal Jewish. trauma. I did not offer that as a definition of Zionism. He'd even ask us for a definition of Zionism. And he used that misattribution to try and claim that we don't have a definition of Zionism. Yeah. So there were things about it I didn't like. But what I did like about it is that it allowed us to be the little nudniks that we are trying to poke at bears that don't have any right to hybridate anymore. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love poking at bears. It's one of my favorite things to do

I don't have the stomach for it the way you do, Taylor. And so I appreciate you poking at multiple bears across the ideological spectrum and taking so many claws to the face for the sake of things you believe in. So appreciate that and appreciate you coming on this podcast. I'm glad now we no longer count as those on the left who do not talk about this particular issue. But yeah, thank you for coming on. Where can people find you and support your work? My YouTube channel is I have Taylor Lorenz,

and I have my live streaming channel, Taylor Lorenz live streams. I have my newsletter, usermag.com, and I'm on Patreon. So please support me. I have no advertisers. So please support me. Go to Patreon, support Taylor, support her work. Again, thank you so much for coming on. Thanks for having me.

Of course. Patreon.com. about Osbarra. Oh, you know what? I'm sorry. Before we go, there is one more thing that I think you wanted to talk about. Can we talk about the Fight for the Future. Oh, yeah.

The letter that you wrote. I just want to get that in there because I know you talked about it at the beginning. Yes. So, well, Fight for the Future is an org that actually wrote this letter, that produced this letter that's to Joseph Gordon Levitt asking him to please listen to LGBTQ people and marginalized people on Section 230. So they have produced this phenomenal letter that is a link in my bio. And you can also just go to Fight for the Future.org and find it or find it on their social media.

They're an amazing human rights organization that is fighting to protect Section 230. Please sign the letter and tell Joseph Gordon Levitt to stop what he's doing, listen to marginalized people and protect Section 230. Absolutely. And you will also find that link. Read the room, not the shoem. That's right. You'll find the link in our show description as well. Taylor, thank you so much for coming on.

Thanks for having me. Of course. Patreon.com slash badassbara. Baddusbara's e-mail.com for your questions, comments, and concerns. All right, everyone, thanks again so much for listening. And until next time, from the river to see, hands off section 213. Hey, I like it. Jumping jacks was us.

Push-ups was us. Godmaga us. All karate us. Taking off endless friends like us. Happy me. Thank you.