Badlands Media - The Choice (S4E2): Confessions

Episode Date: June 4, 2026

Ghost and Ashe in America walk through season four episode two of The Chosen, which opens with John the Baptist appearing to Jesus in a dream with broken chains and ends with Matthew finally apologizing to Peter at the altar of Pan. In between, the disciples sit Shiva on the open road, Andrew discovers he is no longer the anxious one, and Jesus drags everyone to Caesarea Philippi where the pagans are bringing goats into the temple for purposes that are not sacrifice. The hosts unpack why he brought them to the gates of hell to give Peter his new name and why "on this rock I will build my church" comes with "get behind me, Satan" three verses later. Then the conversation gets personal. Matthew confronting Peter on the road. The principle that you apologize to repent, not to be forgiven. Turning harmony into an idol and how false decorum has gutted the Western church. The 501(c)(3) trap. Seventy times seven and how cycles of revenge end. And Ashe sharing the story of her brother's killer being released from prison this past February and the choice she has been working through ever since.

The badlands, one of the badlands, explain those badlands. That's a hell of a name. Good morning, Chosen People. Welcome to The Choice. We are today going over season four, episode two, and it's packed. It is, they're really starting off season four with a bang, and that bang is the executioner's sword. Coming down on John the Baptist.

We're going to get into most of it. I don't know that we'll hit everything from this episode because there's a lot and where there's, there's certainly some parts that Ghost and I both want to narrow in on Ghost. How are you, my friend? I'm good. I'm good. How are you? I'm great, actually. It's, I went after our show yesterday.

So Ghost and I sat in on Badlands Daily and condolences to Brian and his family for their loss. and it's, you know, prayers up for the family as they get through it. But Ghost and I sat in on Badlands Daily. I played the role of Brian and Ghost played the role of Ash. And we triggered a lot of people based on the feedback to the episode, which is great, which is what we do, Ghost and I, when we do shows. But afterwards, I went hiking. And I haven't been hiking and I don't even know how long.

Stephanie Casey was out here. She's out here with her family. She's a Badlander. I saw her in Nashville. I think most people saw her in Nashville. And we went on a hike, Devil's Head Tower lookout, this big fire tower up at 10,000 feet, overlooking the entire front range. And it was amazing.

It was like, I don't know, something, something I very much needed is all I will say about that. But how are you doing? Yeah, I'm good. I'm fine. obviously condolences and thoughts and prayers with Brian and his family. Yeah, it's been a wild week. Yeah, but you're right about this wild week just meaning like rich narrative deployments, right? Oh, for sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Obviously, I've captured my attention. but as far as this episode goes, you're right, it was a long one. It was like an hour and 20 minutes, which is like twice the length of like the normal episode. And then, but on top of that, there was like a lot of very, very big milestones, like very infamous, notorious scenes from the Bible. And so, yeah, like you said, we're definitely not going to cover it all, but we will focus in on the, on the, the big ones. Yeah, I think we'll probably punt Thomas and Rima for sure, just off of that, because that storyline develops way more in future episodes so we can revisit kind of the T-Up

from this one. But we get the rock in this episode. We get the On the Rock. I will build my church, which is, you know, a passage of the Bible that is still in dispute as to what it means today. and it's led to different variations on the Christian religion. And we'll talk about all of that. But before we talk about that, we're going to talk about our incredible sponsors. And first step, we are going to talk about how it is officially a new era for gold and silver. Gold has broken $5,000 an ounce and silver has surged past 100.

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That's fun. But yeah, I mean, let's, Let's get into it. So the opening scene, I think we should play the opening scene. In the end of the last episode, we had John the Baptist was beheaded. And they didn't show anything graphic about it, thankfully, because it was gutting enough as they chose to do it. But we see him looking out the window as the executioner's sword is coming down. And he sees a lamb in the field.

And obviously it's the lamb of God. It's Jesus. episode when it opens, we see Jesus standing in the field. And it looks like he's standing in exactly the same spot that John saw the lamb. That's how I interpreted that. And then he sees John. And it's a dream. And then he talks to Andrew.

I think we should play that stretch. If you agree. Yes. Let me pull that up. And we are not on YouTube. So we're good on the copyright. I mean, we're I actually don't think we're on

some of these other shows are still streaming daily so they'll catch up with us later. All right. Channels, I mean, not shows. I'm sorry, excuse me. I think I have the playback speed on yeah, one, one point two five. There we go.

I'll just, I'll set this right here. It's all right. Please come in. Are you holding up? I'm not exactly not to say. I thought that would be for worse. Apparently, Simon thinks so, he keeps checking on me every five minutes.

Like how, you keep checking on me? You knew John longer than any of us. But then you're... Why do you need to check on me? Okay. Well, then I'll just... I'll say, you're a mystery. This tale.

Pretty. Oh. Tastes like Elijah's bones. Can we be laughing? You know, some of the moments in which we love the hardest. Come around at a time of a funeral. Motion's right at the service. Laughter and tears.

Closer than ever. And believe me, I sat many a shiva with John when we were kids. And he could not hold a sullen mood for seven straight days. Never happened. And shambles. No, Andrew, there is no should and grief. There's no right way to be. You've already experienced much grief when John was arrested.

Fall into pieces again but not honor John's memory any more than feeling nothing at all. So, you say I am a mystery? Well, I mean that you... You... Who did John say I am? John? The one. What are you doing? I've given me an idea.

Where do we tradem? additionally, Sikshiva. The home of the deceased? And where was John's home? The open road. Gather the others. Okay. So there's a lot packed in there.

First of all, you know, what do you think of the opening, the dream part? Because the way I see it, it's the, you know, in 2nd Corinthians chapter 5, verse 8, Paul says, yes, we are good courage. we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. The King James says we are confident and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. And what we see here is that he is, he's, so John is looking out in the end of last episode,

John is looking out at the field and sees the lamb. And at the moment that he is executed, he is present with Jesus. Now that's a dream. This is all showrunner invention. I like what they did. here. I think it was a very artistic and respectful

way to you know, they could have been real bloody and graphic, you know, like the passion of the Christ, but they went, you're muted, I think. But they went a different route and then we see John break his chains

and then point as if I've prepared the way now it's your turn. That's kind of how I interpreted it. Yeah, I think so too. Because like when he's looking out of the window when he's when he's being executed it's like the light is shining very bright I mean it's like it's like God

shining on down to them right and it's almost like that's the like the stairway to heaven for lack of a better way to describe it right I mean that that's like the path to heaven like that's like God being like all right it's time for you to come home to the kingdom I agree about the graphic part like they could have made it way more intense but I do think they did some really

smart well tasteful implications like the like the daughter I forget her name requests for his head to be brought to on a silver platter they take the silver platter they put it right underneath the the

chopping block so yeah it's like they like they heavily implied that literally they're just going to walk out there with the head on a platter and like give it to her it in front of everybody or the wife But they don't show it. I mean, I think they don't show it.

They don't show it. Very tastefully artistic. Yeah, but like they're sitting there polishing the silver platter right in front of Don. He's like looking at it. He understands what's about to happen. Never been to a banquet before. Yeah, like he realizes he, I'm going to a banquet.

My head's going to a banquet without without the rest of me. Yeah, yeah. So it's like that's all very, very heavily implied, but not visualized. So again, tastefully done. This scene, I think is kind of the bookend of that scene because he's looking out He's been stuck in prison for the majority of the show, I feel like. Because first he was in prison when Nicodemus went and visited him. And then now he's been in prison with Harry.

I mean, he really was out for like one episode, right? Like, you know, maybe a few episodes where he didn't see him. But he's been in prison pretty much the entire time that we've been following these people as the audience. And so then he's looking out in like this landscape up the window. God's light shines out, the lamb. He's killed. and then now Jesus is standing in this vast expanse and the camera's zooming in on him

kind of like I think demonstrate God's huge kingdom right this huge earthly kingdom and then he kind of points out into the distance implying like I like you said I've cleared the way like I've done my mission my mission's done his chains were broken he was free and he seemed

and he seemed very joyful like it was not like he was upset Jesus was upset because he understood what happened to him and he knows he's never going to see him again, at least in this realm. But yeah, but like then that's just the natural sadness, you know, sorrow, grief of human nature, you know, the human condition. So yeah, I think all of it was done very, very for the amount of time that was dedicated, which is not very much, you know, like the very last scene of the last episode, two minutes in this episode. a lot was addressed, I feel like. The humanity of Jesus, you know, the mission of John, his completion of it, the symbolism of God. So it was well done. Yeah, I agree with that.

And I think that the one thing that these showrunners do really well, I would say they do it really well. I think it's been the subject of controversy and, you know, people's with critical reception of the show. at certain points. But I think that they do, um, they do a lot with a little, right? They can take, they can take,

just, just using symbolism in a short scene, like the dream part of this and, uh, and do a lot with them. So then Jesus wakes up and Andrew was there and Andrew is all very worried about Jesus. This is a shift for Andrew.

And I, and I think that it's, um, it's notable, right? Because he was panicked. every time John got arrested, anytime he got news about John. John was his rabbi, right?

He was a follower of John before Jesus came on the scene. And then he went to follow Jesus, but he still loves John. And he's very concerned about him, you know, collapsing at times. And here, Andrew can't really understand why he's doing better than he expected he would be doing. And he's worried about Jesus. And I think that the conversation that they have about grief is important and true. There is no one way to grieve. And, you know, I don't know, I don't know any family that's dealt with the amount of, I mean, maybe yours is close, actually, but dealt with the amount of traumatic death, right?

Unexpected traumatic death than my husband's family. And not only does each member of the family grieve differently, but with each death, they grieved differently. For sure. And, you know, and that's the thing is in dealing with time, when you're in that situation, grace is, I think, one of the most important things that we can give people that are grieving. You know, blessed or those who mourn is one of the things that Jesus said. Now, from a Jewish culture or Israelite culture, Hebrew culture, I don't know what the right word is, but they're sitting Shiva, right? And so they've got seven days where they're supposed to be in the home of the deceased and it's a time of remembrance and, you know, mourning and all of that. And just like every other heavily prescribed ritual that these guys do, this culture does, Jesus decides to upend it.

Now, I don't think that it's in scripture. This was a show run of choice. But I think it's consistent with the message of the life and ministry of Jesus Christ that they would decide, you know, John's home is on the open road. So we need to sit Shiva on the open road. We need to walk Shiva, right? Yeah, yeah. What they're saying, but I like the implication, and it seems to come up every time the religious Jewish leaders, one, exercise their authority, try to attempt to exercise their authority over Jesus and his followers. But when these heavily prescribed according to the law, because they view it as though their righteousness comes from.

the law, right? And the following of the law. And if you guys would just follow the law better, then the Messiah would come. If you guys would be cleaner and less dirty, then the Messiah would come. Every time that that happens in the show, and again, it's showrunner choice. Every time it happens in the show, Jesus flips the table metaphorically. Yeah. Yeah, it's a great way to put it. And you're absolutely right when it comes to grief. Obviously, everybody grieves differently. but what I've learned is and I think this is kind of a testament to the

like we've talked about this before these ideas these rituals these practices are started with the best of intentions and then sometimes they're turned into something different and I'm not saying that's what's happened with Shiva I don't really know much about Shiva to be honest with you I understand what it is

but I don't know anything beyond just the seven day period I think it actually makes a lot of sense because from what I've learned the best thing you can do in those moments like like the around the funeral right where people will typically travel to be there is to be in the moment because it's very easy when you're grieving to like be removed from the moment and your mind to be elsewhere and for you to be thinking about the past or thinking about the future or thinking about like the person who's

passed but what I've learned is like as hard as it is to turn that off and to be in the moment with all the people who've come. That's so important because that I think helps. But like you're never going to get that again, number one. Like the people come and they gather and then they disperse and go back to their lives. So like enjoying that as much as you can is really important. Like being there in that moment is really, really important. Hang on on that for a second because you just made me think of something that I didn't consider before.

At the time that John is beheaded, they're talking about a wedding feast, right? And we know that at the, biblically speaking, that the marriage supper of the lamb, what's coming at the end of the age, ages is a wedding feast where, you know, God takes his bride. But what you just described of when there's a funeral, you know, people come together, you're in that moment together and then you disperse and go back to your. your life's wedding is similar to that. Yeah. Like I remember when I'm at my wedding, I was sitting on the beach.

I, you know, all of all of the different, the boarding school people and the college people and the childhood friend people and, you know, all of this, this really eclectic group of people that didn't know each other, but their common connection was me and my husband, right? And I remember thinking like, sitting on the beach thinking this group of people will never be together again. Yeah. But maybe at the funeral, they will, right? It's just a notable thing that there's that kind of symbol symbolism as well, the wedding in the funeral.

Yeah, it's a good point. Like I talked about the wedding that I just attended for my best friend in the Caribbean and a lot of old friends at that wedding. A big group of friends. And we've gathered so many times for everybody's wedding. This was the last person to be married, right? It's probably like the last time that all of us would gather like this outside of, you know, if we do. organize like a group vacation which happens but it's like half people can make it you know that kind of thing like and i came it probably happened somewhere in the caribbean around the time that a u.s military

operation yeah yeah right and i can't even remember the last time we did something like that it's just you know not certainly not since i've had children um so it's it's uh yeah it's like you think about that and it's uh it's yeah there's passing moments in life where you um like the group of people who you at one point in your life are with every single day, or almost every day. And like now you only see each other when you gather for moments like this. But it's such an old group of friends that when you get together, it's like you're just right back to 20 years ago, right? I mean, it's wild. But yeah, I would say that it's, you know, the grief thing, it's important to be in those moments and not be distant.

as hard as that is because I do think that more so than anything else like death and the grief that comes with it does inspire inflection, reflection, circumspection. Like it puts you in your head and takes you away from your physical surroundings more so than I think than anything else. But looking at Andrew in this moment, he is a... always been like you said the very anxious one he's always been the one who's very who like can't he can't be in the moment because he's always thinking about yeah something else he's always thinking about whatever the thing is that he's worried about which is typically the future right or something it's happening elsewhere like john being in prison um and jesus said at the sermon of the mount like do not be anxious like stop being anxious so we're we're seeing now everyone yeah yeah exactly so it's like

we're seeing now Andrew, I think, his character are, we're seeing his character develop, we're seeing him actually live the word that Jesus told him and not just, and not just say the words, but live the word. So there's like, there's a spiritual maturity there. And then he kind of is stunned by it. He's like, I don't understand why I'm not being myself. Why am I not being anxious? Why am I not being upset? Well, it's because he's actually living the word by without even realizing it because if he was really anxious and he was really upset and he like like he got when like he was when john was arrested that would kind of be an indication that he didn't really understand the mission he didn't really understand what john was supposed to be he didn't understand

this was supposed to happen basically like everything that's happening is supposed to happen this is all god's plan um and john came to earth for one reason he did the reason and then he departed And now he's in a better place. It's like when you understand that, it's like there's a happiness that can also come with the grief. And I think Jesus, we're seeing that with Jesus. And it's a very, very complex emotion. But the fact that Andrew is not anxious and not being himself, his old self, he is able, I think, to process all of that, I would imagine, far better in a far more sophisticated way, which I think also in itself, will allow for even more spiritual growth because I've experienced that myself.

When you're able to actually process it, you get rid of noise, I think you walk away from it with with actual spiritual maturity and not just like the facade of saying the words, right? Like forgiving your enemy, right? Like forgiving the people who hurt you, which is easy to say very hard to do. But once you do it, it really does lift like a lot of weight off of your, your mind, right? Yeah, so. Yeah, it's a closure or resolution, right? That's important.

The, so Eleanor 2000 says, and I think this is spot on, the spiritual conundrum may be that we see how God's plan for our lives, such as John's, are far from pain free. We must acknowledge that our wounds are God's gifts, strangely. And then Marine in the woods said, you don't get clean before getting in the shower. And I think that that's the thing. We see these characters. And I think that, you know, I think there was, this is probably true, given what I know about humans, human nature and what I've read about the apostles in the Gospels and in Acts,

is that they're being refined. They're being transformed in Jesus' presence and by his presence. And we can see that here with Andrew. And he doesn't really understand it, right? He doesn't necessarily understand why when the thing he feared the most happened, he's less, he's, he's, the fear of it is gone, right? And he is, he is concerned about his rabbi. And it's like they really, so John was saying all along that he was preparing the way. That's prophecy from Isaiah, I think.

and and he was that and Jesus and John were raised their whole lives to to know that right that that he that there was that there was something special there and that he that he was preparing the way when when John baptizes Jesus you can kind of see that come in all those guys were there I mean Andrew was there right and was able to see to see it that you know John was preparing the way for Jesus to do what Jesus was going to do. And what was Jesus going to do? Die. And John and John goes, goes through that same process.

And then Jesus goes through the process. And what does Jesus say? Take up your cross and follow me. And the, the apostles all, you know, died as well. I mean, John is questionable. But, you know, so, so there, They're missing it, but they're being refined to be it. So they can't see it yet, right?

When they're walking with Jesus, they can't see the full plan. Some of them probably still thinking that they're going to liberate Israel from Rome. But they're being transformed to be able to do the thing that they're called to do, even though they have no idea yet what that thing is. And I think that that's true to how God works. and the character of God is that it's all for his glory, as we say every single week on this show, is that you cannot invert it and make yourself the main character of the story. And the next scene we're going to talk about with The Rock is, I think there's some interesting creative choices here in this scene. But not make yourself the main character of the story, but ever striving to be more like Jesus,

to act more like Jesus in certain circumstances, in circumstances where you, would normally bite someone's head off guilty, that you make a different choice, right? That you offer grace, you show, you know, you try to be the hands and feet, empathy on people that you maybe normally wouldn't have empathy on. But you do when the Holy Spirit is working through you. And I think that's what we see happening here. They still don't get it. You know, I think they're still thinking, like as Eleanor said, you know, they're still missing the fact that it's not pain free. Jesus told them in this world. We went through this with Peter in the show, not in the Bible, but with Simon and Eden and their miscarriage.

Right. Like in this world, you're going to have trials and tribulations, but I have overcome the world is what he said. They still don't get it. But I think they're getting closer to getting it or, you know, and won't until after, won't until after the crucifixion in my opinion. Yeah, it's like that old parable I probably won't get it exactly right, but of the young man, the son who

wants to go join the monastery and the monks say, all right, we do a one year trial and then you'll decide if you're going to join us. And so he leaves his parents and goes and basically every day they just fill up a bathtub and they have him slap the bathtub water until he's done until it's empty. And it takes him progressively less and less time to get all the water out of the bathtub.

And then he comes back to his parents at the end of the year. And his parents ask him, well, what did you learn? And he said, absolutely out of frustration, absolutely nothing and slaps the table and breaks the table and half. And he was like, holy, and he's like, holy crap. And then he goes back and becomes a monk. He realizes that he wasn't thinking about, yeah, he wasn't thinking about what he was, like, what is the point of all this the whole time?

And then realized that he was, he had, how strong he had become from doing something that seemed really mundane and really, really. pointless. That's kind of... It's like Mr. Miyagi and Danielson. Yeah, exactly. It's like the mundane and the things that you don't think are important are actually, yeah, building you are actually building you up.

And like we saw with, not that you don't think it's important, but just not that you're like, why is this happening to me? Why is this happening to me? This doesn't make any sense. This isn't supposed to happen this way. Kind of like with the miscarriage. And Jesus said, you're getting stronger. from this. You don't realize it, but this is making you who you, who I need you to be.

Yeah. Because I, I need you to be a certain thing, which we're going to get to in this episode. And to your point, all of these guys have to become like Jesus. So when he leaves, they can all become their own version of them and then go start their own, their own following and become the guy who then has the followers around him, who are all sitting there with their head, like chickens with their heads cut off being like, what do we do? What do we do? What do we do? And they have to be the rock and be like, sit down and listen and stop being, stop being you and be who I need you to be, right? And that's the mind orientation. And it's in every single one of us. When we start, when we're, when we're, when we're, when we're, when we're, when we're, when we're making it about ourselves and why is this happening to me? And what is it? The, the orientation of the follower of Jesus should be why, why am I going through this? What am I supposed to learn? God is allowing this to happen to me because nothing happens to me except what God allows. allows, right? Nobody can behead you unless God allows them to behead you. That is, that is just how

that works. Change my mind in the chat if you disagree. Nothing can happen to you except what God allows. So God is allowing something to happen. Why? Well, we know it's for his glory. So how does God get the glory in the situation? That should define how you act, right? Yes. If we don't do that, if it's woe me, you know, woe is me. You know, this is, this is so, unfair, I'm such a victim, all this is happening, well, then you're, you're going to miss the point. And I think the persecution is going to be way harder, whatever the thing that's happening to you is, is going to be way harder if you're focusing on how it's impacting you versus how you can glorify God in the situation of that. Now, that sounds very idealistic and from a human standpoint,

damn near impossible. But that's the job. That's the calling is to do. all things for the glory of God. Yeah, it's like JFK said, we should not pray for easy, easy lives. We should pray for the strength, for strong men who can handle all of the trials and tribulations that are thrown out of something like that. I'm paraphrasing. But yeah, it's like, if trouble comes, let it come in my day. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

And so, and so these guys are all, the apostles are all balls of clay. And God through Jesus is molding them into what he needs them. to be at the point of the crucifixion because if they're not that thing, then this is not going to work. The whole thing is going to fail with Jesus dying. And that's true of all of us, right? We're all balls of clay and God is molding us into what we need to be for what he has called us to. And you can get bogged down in that process and focus on, well, I don't want to be clay. I want to be wood.

I want to be stone. I want to do this. I want to do that. Or you can participate in the process and realize that you're being refined and, you're being refined into a new creation. Yes, exactly. Exactly. All right, you want to talk about Cessorii Philip?

Yes, Cessori of Philippi. So they decide, yeah, they decide that they're going to walk Shiva on the road. And in so doing, they end up at the altar of Pan outside the gates of hell and Cessaria Felpie. This is from the Bible artist's summary of this. And the guy does way more research than Ghost and I. And we appreciate him. You guys should support him. You should buy him a coffee over on his site,

the bibleartist.com. As the disciples near Cessori of Philippi, Mount Herman, they begin to encounter remnants of pagan shrines to ball before finally reaching the gates of hell, a cultic complex outside a cave that the pagans considered an entrance to the underworld. The disciples are disgusted by all the pagan worship, particularly when they encounter goats brought in for the implied purpose of ritual beastiality. Arriving at the altar of Pan outside the gates of hell, Jesus responds to the disgust of his disciples by questioning whether they should avoid dark places out of fear or whether they should be a light to them. And we should play that.

Yeah. And I just want to point out that they mentioned Mount Herman in their discussion. I don't know if they're going to mention, I don't know if it's captured in the scene we're going to watch. But during the walk, they're talking about Mount Herman. And that's a place I've been talking about on my show. So on my show on Tuesday, we were talking about Matula, which is a village in Israel. And Nabatia, which is a village in Lebanon. And Nabatia is supposed to be like a big Hezbollah stronghold.

And so the IDF has just taken Buford Castle. Now, I was speculating before this happened that they were going to go for Mount Herman, which they probably still will. Mount Herman's right here. Here's Sessori-Philip. Because Mount Herman, as I understand it, is the highest point on the eastern coast of the Mediterranean, south of Turkey, of course, because Turkey has tons of mountains. But yeah, so like in the Levant and the Holy Land that we would think of Mount Hermann's the highest point. So they were talking about, oh, yeah, we're walking to Mount Herman, and they were talking about Mount Herman. That just stuck out in my mind, which obviously the first time I watched this, none of that really, I didn't have any context for it, but now I do. So I thought that was interesting.

All right, let's go to the show. Oh, look, an obelisk. So it's surrounded by pagan symbolism, an obelisk. Yeah. Oh, wait, it's the Washington Monument. Oh, look at that. And not just, right? I mean, pretty much every capital complex has one of those things.

Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. I haven't asked you yet. And by the way, for those who aren't tracking, this is a new actor playing Philip. like in this season. So they like replaced the actor. And I love the old actor. I mean,

this guy is fine, but I felt like the old one had a lot of charisma. But new actor, same character. So this, this confused me tremendously. The first time I saw it. I was like,

wait, who is this guy? I've never seen this guy before. But it's Philip. One with Kat says, all shows are geopolitics now. Yes. All shows are always geopolitics.

Yes. You good? I'm good. I'm at peace. John would have wanted that, hmm? You haven't asked me how I am. I'm sorry, how are you? No, I'm just kidding. Just as I feared.

Cessaria, Philip. Hey, this may have been where you lived, but you're definitely not the same man I found passed out at midday in the middle of a cheap flat, hmm? Thanks for the memory. Just trying to help. The Canaanite god bail. Used to be worshipped here.

Actually, many places, but especially here. Why? Water. They regarded bale is the god of rain. Spring poured us out of a cave in the side of the rock face there. Mountain head of the Jordan. Stand out the depths of the spring, they let the rock down on the row. Never reach the bottom.

Welcome to the gates of hell. Yeah, so just to provide some context, the Greeks, like they said, there's a cave back there. You can see it behind this complex. I actually went and checked. This appears to be historically accurate, like the way they have this set built. This appears very similar to what, you know, archaeologists say that this site looked like. And so in the cave, water comes out of rocks.

There's like a very vast, like, pit, I guess. And they say that, you know, they threw a rope down there and they could never find the bottom. So the Greeks said this was the gateway to the underworld. And then, of course, like that was adopted by the monotheus to say this is the gateway to hell. So when they say the gates of hell, that's what they mean. This is the gateway to the underworld according to the pagans, which means the gates to hell. And so the water comes out of this cave and it feeds the creeks that then go into the Jordan and down to the Sea of Galilee. So all the water, it's a weird, it's a weird kind of dynamic because it's like this is the gateway to hell, but this is also the source of all life because the water comes out of here, which is why they worship, you know, the pagans worship at this site.

Yeah, but also just the back in September 2024, I went to the Vatican. Everybody knows that. I went to St. Peter's Basilica and there's a big old obelisk outside of that as well. Yes. Yep. Yeah, and there's a, you know, there's a cult Egyptian background there. Matt Erich would be better at explaining that than me, but it's raw. It's the son god raw. They believe that the Avalis channel's divine energy symbolizes rebirth, gives them special powers. Yeah. And so, and that statue that was broken, they bail ball, right? I mean, people are, I think most people are familiar with that concept, but the Canaanites, devil worship. Moloch, all that. So they would have been sacrificing children, sacrificing animals, cannibalism at these temples.

Really, really great. They would have reeked. There would have been blood everywhere. It would have been a pretty gross, disgusting place. And this is, there are a lot of theories out there that these practices still go on, right? And, you know, I think there are certain instances of which we can say it's not just theory, but that's the thing. is that it's very it's it's the architecture the elements right associated with the architecture are

ubiquitous in capital cities and in you know the think about uh washington dc london and vatican city the three city states um they all have that architecture and symbolism Hmm. Doesn't the fault of our tasty kosher food sound better here? He has a point. Are those goats for sacrificing their temple? No. Something much worse.

Children. No, they're going to have sex with them. What's that? They're going to have sex with the goats. It's ritual bestiality. Is that what? That's the implication on Matthew's face. That's what's what they're talking about.

Okay. Okay, okay. And they could be sacrificing children in there, but the goat conversation specifically is, no, they're not sacrificing the goats, which is something that the Jews do, right? Like the spotless animals for the sacrifices in the temple, that wouldn't be such a crazy thing. But they're not doing that. They're not bringing the goats in to sacrifice them. They're bringing the goats in to have ritual, vespiality with them. Yeah, okay, that makes sense. Yeah, I thought I backed up a little bit because I thought James said, or I thought he said, are they sacrificing goats in there? And then he said, and then I thought James said, no, something much worse. Yeah, and then look at Matthew's face. You could be right.

Either way, he's having a revelation that something really, really messed up is happening in there. Yeah. Really evil. You see, doesn't the thought of our tasty kosher food sound better here? He has a point. Are those goats for sacrificing their temple? Oh, I see. something much worse. Are those goats for sacrificing?

I say, yeah, okay, you're right. I think you're right. Matthew gets it there. You see it on his face. Yeah. So we go right, we go from there to here, which is an interesting creative choice. Yeah, I know, I know,

because it's like you feel like you're going into the temple and then now here we are at the Sanhedron. I don't know if we, should we jump ahead to the next? Yeah, let's do it. Let's finish the rock and then we can circle back and do Shmuel. Shmuel's whole thing because that's the, yeah, that's the other, the other scene I wanted to get to. Okay.

That's the same guy that we saw during the, uh, the two by twos. Two by twos, yeah, he was, he was, he was dissecting the bird. Rabbi, this place. Respect me, rabbi. Why did you bring us here? It's an abomination. It's a pretty strong word, Andrew. Rabbi, during Shiva?

Should we avoid dark places out of fear? should we be light to them, like Simon and Judas were on their mission. Do you think my cousin would be afraid of this cave? Do you think he would be so appalled by what happens in that temple over there that he couldn't stand to be in this place? Who do people say the son of man is? Some say you are Elijah, the one who preaches repentance. Others say Jeremiah, because he was rejected by the leaders at his time.

And still others say one of the prophets, those that spoke on God's behalf. Okay, what are we gonna have to do, huh? Castlotz? Nathaniel, this is your moment. Be yourself. Some say John the baptizer. Which obviously isn't true. Okay. Well, that's everyone else. But who do you say that I am? You? You are the Christ, the son of the living God.

These carved statues of Baal and Pan and other idols that we pest. They're dead in the king, but we worship us. worship by living God. And you, you are his son. Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you. You've been called Simon. It is on this rock that I will build my church. And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. This is a place of death. And I brought you here to tell you that death has no power. to hold my redeemed people captive.

Because I live. You also will live. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. And whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven. And whatever you lose on earth will be loosed in heaven. You have the authority to declare the truth to others that I am declaring to you. That the repentant have a place in the kingdom of heaven. Confess that I am the Christ will influence many others to make the same confession in time.

I will explain more later. For now, I must all keep this quiet. I strictly charge you not to tell anyone. Rabbi, some already know that you are the Messiah. Why keep this silent now? In some places, for some people, it was important that they know and believe. But right now, If all our people of this region, here the Messiah has come, they will rise up in multitudes, preparing to join a military figure in war against Rome. I want people to follow me based on my true identity, like Peter here. Not based on their misguided understanding of the title, I hope.

Teacher, our people are ready to believe in you and fight with you. Why else bring us to this place of death? If not to defeat it, that will come in time. I brought you here to honor John by showing you what he was here to do. He was preparing the way for this, for me to build my church. A church that will never be stopped, even in a place that was fearless of evil and obedient everywhere. And so must you be. Even at the gates of heaven.

Are you ready to follow in his footsteps and mine? Even if that leads you to a place like this, not as all. We should be going. Okay, pause it. I'll get that through you, little James. So I want to read the scriptures because there's a lot of creative choice involved in how they chose to tell this part of the story. So we have first Matthew 16,

starting at verse 13. Now, when Jesus came into the district of Cessarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, who do you say that the son of man is? And they said, some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah and others, Jeremiah, one of the prophets. He said to them, but who do you say that I am? Simon Peter replied, you are the Christ, the son of the living God. And Jesus answered him, blessed are you, Simon Barjona, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my father who is in heaven.

And I tell you, you are Peter. And on this rock, I will build my church. And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven. And whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ. Now, what they seem to have done in here is pull in other parts of Jesus' words into this.

So there's in, for example, in John 14 verse 19 before long the world will not see me anymore but you will see me because I live you also will live so they put that in there so and here's the thing is that

we you know we have we have the the the what is the word I'm looking for translation of the ancient manuscript about this

but the just the scribe process In general, I would think means they didn't capture it all down. And then you have, you know, the gospel of Matthew and the gospel of John. The gospel of John was written later. If I'm remembering that correctly, somebody correct me, or Marine in the Woods or Babbage or somebody correct me. If I'm wrong, John Drake, maybe.

Who's in the chat? What's up, John Drake? But so that I think is important to realize the creative choice to make that more dialogue. We, you know, can take exception, I think, with adding to Jesus's words or adding to the experiences of the apostles, John the Baptist witnessing miracle, witnessing a miracle is something that we have talked about before was a showrunner choice that, you know, might go too far, right? I think that's still probably the thing that I've taken the most exception with. Babbage says, yes, I believe it was Matthew 1st. Thank you so much.

And so realizing that, I think it's true to, true to the message, true to what the experience was, but they did expand that quite a bit. And in addition to expanding it in the, in the scripture, so Matthew 16, we just read 13 through 20. 21, verse 20, the verse, the verse, the verse, the very next verse, I'm going to read three of them. From that time, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes and be killed and on the third day be raised. And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him saying, far be it from you, Lord, this shall never happen to you. But he turned and, Jesus, turned and said to Peter, get behind me Satan. You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting

your mind on the things of God but on the things of man. This is what we were just talking about, is the human hang-up of once you start making yourself the main character of the story, once you start celebrating yourself, once you decide that you know, you're worthy, you're chosen, you're the one that deserves all the things. Once you take that mind orientation, you're setting your mind on the things of man instead of the things of God and that is not from God. And when you realize that there is an entire religion built upon on this rock, I build my church, right?

That there is an entire faction of the Christian religion that's recognized, by the way, as the kind of majority and the leader of that faction is viewed as the leader of Christianity according to the world. That is, that that's something. that I personally couldn't get back, get past in terms of, you know, my my pursuit of truth and the truth of the Bible and the truth in the life and the ministry of Jesus Christ. None of us are holy. All of us are fallible.

There's no one good, not one. There's no one that is without sin except Jesus. And that's true to today. Yeah. I mean, I would agree with, I would agree with that that you're right. And yeah, it's an interesting, interesting. dynamic and interesting point you make. Yeah.

So after this, I think that we can we can kind of dig in. We'll go to the Schmuel stuff, but before we get to the Schmuel stuff, I want to talk about Simon and, or Peter, rather. I'm struggling just like the apostles to shift his name. Peter and Matthew. Because that's something, we're in season four.

And it has taken, this is a dynamic that began at the very beginning of this. And we're finally kind of seeing the third act of it. So I don't know if you have the conversation with Jesus and Matthew. I think we start there. And then we can play the moment at the end. Well, actually, we should probably do the apology and then the moment at the end. Okay. So are we done with the scene?

where he's about to talk to James. If you want to play it, we can play it. I can't remember exactly what happens here with James. He helps him put his backpack on. Okay, that's it. Okay, yeah, you're right, you're right. It might be that the Matthew part of this is right after. While you find where Jesus and Matthew are talking about Peter.

It's not a habit here, but yeah. Okay, perfect. Well, before you play that scene, it's lotion raider time. A long, long time ago, the raider went into a dangerous cave. Because he was on an adventure. Or like he smelled like an adventure. But the cave was protected by spiders and lizards. No, it was snakes.

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Lotion for sent off. Have you shown that to your kids? I actually just showed it to my kids last night. Do they love it? Um, my, my old, my oldest daughter didn't really care. My middle child, uh, was very intrigued by it. And my youngest was probably too young to really even understand what he was looking at. Um, my, my, my, my, the middle one who loved it didn't even realize it was me though. Uh, I had to explain it afterwards. But the, uh, the oldest just didn't understand like the, uh, Indiana, none of them understood the Indian, Indiana. It's like that. That whole part. I haven't shown it to her yet. She was, she was, uh, traveling. She was, yeah, yeah, out of the house last night. but I will probably I'll probably show it tonight. Yeah, I bet. I think that'll be hilarious.

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we have our very first exclusive live stream today at 3 p.m. Eastern time it's going to be incredible it's going to be you'll laugh you'll cry you'll help us shape the panels and tell us what you want us to talk about when we're at gart and of course we're probably talked a little bit about the shenanigans we're going to get into in deadwood because Deadwood is awesome. John's favorite place in the country, he says, and I think it's quickly becoming some of the rest of ours as well because of how much fun we have in Deadwood.

We kind of just run that town for the weekend. We have our haunts and our spots, and we get into all sorts of shenanigan. It is so much fun. Oh, yeah, Claire is coming. Can't wait to see you. And so, yeah, everybody, make sure that you head over badlandsmedia.com.

If you can join us in person, It is the pregame for America's 250th birthday. We've got Mount Rushmore. We've got, you know, just all sorts of fun stuff. You're not going to want to miss it. So if you can join us in person, you should. If not, you should still get a virtual ticket because this is, this is going to be, it's going to be a good one. Badlandsmedia.tv slash events.

It is January 25th through the 28th. And that's coming up here pretty quick. And if you grab your virtual ticket or you grab your in-person ticket, you will get a link to the exclusive live stream that starts this afternoon and it'll be a blast. Don't miss it. All right. Yeah. And I would say that the, it's like the week leading up to the big celebration at 4 July,

which I think is happening at not Rushmore. And then also, I didn't get to say this, but my kids love the soft disclosure products. So they did appreciate that aspect of the commercial. You can't believe they didn't recognize you. It looks exactly like you. It was just my middle child didn't recognize me. My youngest and my oldest did. My middle child sometimes is a little bit of a space cadet.

But she didn't recognize me at first. I think she was more captured by like the setting and like the snakes and the all that. Yeah. And it's just they're so cute. Like I could see I can see your kids actually talking about the products in that way. Oh yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. An identity of their dad.

Yeah. All right. So, Matthew, are we teed up? Yes, we are teed up. There we go. By today, you seem to elevate Simon. I mean, Peter. I guess I'm not sure I fully understand his new position and what it means.

Yes, well, I'm not sure he fully understands what it means. He was quite the rest of the whole. which for me, I must admit, was quite a welcome change. Ha ha. I'm not sure you heard most of it, but that long day in Syria, Simon, I mean, Peter, screamed at me across the fire, said that I spit on the Jewish faith, that he would never forget what I did to him and that he could not ever forgive me. Have you asked for forgiveness?

Why would I when he said he wouldn't forgive? It's pointless. You don't apologize to be forgiveness? to be forgiven. You apologize to repent. Forgiveness is a gift given from the other person. I guess I'm finding it hard to accept that the person you would formally assign leadership to have a group. The keys to the kingdom of heaven would be someone so temperamental. I know the terms of metaphor, but he does not act like a rock. I make people what they aren't. You know that better than most. You can obviously choose whomever you want, and your ways are often very different from other people's ways, but...

Rabbi, I must confess, it hurts. You have no idea how cool he has been to me. Maybe you do know, and you chose to elevate him anyway, which makes it even more painful. You're right. There have been times where Peter has been overly harsh with you. And that has not pleased my father in heaven, nor has it placed me. And why? I will say this is not always the consideration, but I would simply ask, who harmed the other first?

I guess in the abstract by accepting the job from Rome. No. No, not in the abstract. Okay, by turning my back on our people, and then by spying on him for Quintus, and even coming within hours of turning him over to Rome, and possibly ruining his family's life. And you've never apologized for this? No, I just...

I want to forget about that time. The same way Mary wants to forget about her time. I want to keep the peace. Apologizing to him would only cause an argument. The group already has enough with those. They're having one right now. There is no peace when two of my followers hold resentment in their heart.

You know what you must do. A long day. I'm going to sleep now. You're not for listening. Okay. So that we get like this really interesting moment where Jesus gets to really talk about forgiveness in a really, really literal, direct manner because of the showrunner's choice to make Matthew, I think, autistic. Where he, like, he struggles with, like, human emotion. he struggles with like these concepts he's obviously he struggles with empathy in a lot of ways i mean

not entirely because i think he we've seen him empathize with like mary before and others um like his parents but it's not something that comes naturally to him it's something that i think he like he has enough trouble i think figuring out his own feelings he can't figure out other people's feelings you know and that's just like the way he was made i think that's true and i think it might you know that might be the um you know overly dramatized example to just really really make the point But I think I think that what Matthew is displaying is very human. And you don't need autism to get to the, well, no, man, I don't have to apologize because have you seen what they've done to me?

Have you seen how much I'm a victim in all of this? Like I don't need to apologize for the harm that I inflicted for the things that I did wrong. And that he says that, you know, you don't, you don't apologize for forgiveness. And I don't remember exactly how he says it. but in my view of the world, you apologize because there's a ledger, right? There's a debt there. And the way that you clear that debt is by having that exchange.

You make it right. It's what I always taught my boys. If you harm someone, you have to make it right. That looks very different depending on what the harm is. And sometimes it means leaving them alone and never talking to them again. Sometimes it means buying them something. Sometimes it means, you know, depending on whatever the harm was. But you have to make it right because there's a ledger.

And in relationships, we're talking about Jesus, Jesus calls 12, 12 people. The son of God is here on earth for a very short period of time, and he calls 12 people to be the future of his body in this world. And there's a big ledger, showrunner invention, there's a big ledger between two of the 12. and that needs to be cleared. That needs to be resolved for his purpose and his glory. And you can see in this, the way that they chose to tell this story, you can see that Matthew can't get his head around the fact that he needs to apologize when Peter has been a real asshole to him, right?

Since the beginning, he's been his biggest critic. He's spit at him. He said he's never, you know, I'd never forgive. you all of these kinds of things and Matthew has then turned himself into a victim but Matthew has a debt to Peter because of what he did to him he caused harm he threatened his family he caused harm and here you can see like it on his face and then we get to in the next part of this him talking to tomorrow and she's like are you all right and he's like nah and then he apologizes that's the part of this.

that I would like to play next. But I think that that's, the autism is useful in telling the story in a very, you know, kind of on the nose way. It allows them to get, yeah, allows them to get real specific and for Jesus to be like, nope, not in the abstract. What'd you do?

Right. Be honest. Be honest about your role in this dispute. That is a very human thing. It is something that every single one of us, you know, it's again, I say this a lot too, but like, thank God. that his mercies are new every morning because we need them every morning because we're,

as soon as we start turning ourselves into the main character, then we're a victim. Then we didn't do anything wrong. Then we didn't. And the point is it's a debt and that debt is on the heart. Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think the autism, it makes Matthew like a child almost. He's like a child like mine. And so Jesus is talking to him like he's a child or any of the other disciples because they're mature adults,

not necessarily emotionally mature, but mature adults, they would have gotten it much quicker and he wouldn't have had to flush it out for the audience. But I think the benefit in him doing that, though, what he's describing and what Matthew responds with when Matthew says, I want to keep the peace. Like bringing it up will only just cause conflict and that's just going to cause us a fight

and I don't want us to fight. Like we're not fighting right now. That describes the modern zeitgeist right now. That is why we are where we are, because people have mistaken, tolerance and politeness for, you know, tranquility. It's like, oh, well, we're not going to bring up this really terrible subject that's really uncomfortable and is going to make people really like, you know, shift in their seat

and make people argue because, you know, that would make society unpleasant. So we're just not going to talk about that. We're going to, because we're good Christians, of course. Turning harmony into an idol is how I've described this in the past. If you are not addressing the, either the sin of the matter, the disruption of the matter, the division of the matter, and you're just trying to keep the peace. And Jesus says, blessed are the peacemakers, but that has to be grounded in truth. And if you're, if you are prioritizing harmony, intolerance of sin and bad behavior and ungodly things, but we can't bring it up, we can't deal with it, we can't rebuke it, we can't have a conversation. about it because we need to keep harmony, right?

We need, we don't want to, we're good Christians. We don't want to be divisive. So we need to keep the harmony. Well, you're turning harmony into an idol. We're going to celebrate LGBTQ because, you know, embrace it. Yeah, embrace it. Yeah.

Put him at the pulpit. Yeah, because, because calling it for what it is is going to cause, you know, a lot of hurt feelings and it's going to make people upset and it's going to cause a lot of strife and anger and resentment and infighting. And then, of course, that just proliferates. And, you know, it just becomes more like things that are worse, things that are worse. And eventually you are at the temple of Pan and Ball, you know, like they just were, you know, witnessing the things they're witnessing. Yeah.

And I think also it's on the microscale, this is like people do this too, like in relationships and friendships and stuff where they will not communicate. They won't address things they should have addressed. And I mean, we're all guilty of that. That's just human, human nature. And so, of course, that's an individual thing, right? So here's the thing. And this is, I think, I think the lesson for all of us in this is that you choose, you choose whether you're going to address something. And sometimes addressing it is really, really uncomfortable.

And you know it's going to be a fight. And you know the other person is going to be in denial and, you know, point the finger back at you. And especially, like, we spend a lot of time in political circles. Like that's how that goes, right? You know it. But your choice about, okay, I'm going to face it anyway and I'm going to raise this and so we can resolve it. It's an individual choice. If you choose not to and you just kind of shove it down and say it's not a big deal, I'm just going to let it go.

It will fester. It will fester. And it could ultimately destroy the relationship. And that's the destructive nature of turning harmony into an idol is that it's going to destroy everything. if you allow the ledger to build and to fester and to rot and you don't deal with it, you're going to end up, you know, mired in resentment and anger. And we see that with Peter and Matthew in their exchange. And particularly this next scene where they're on the road and Matthew finally apologizes,

you can see Peter is, it's festering for him. Yeah. And by the way, what you described, turning harmony into an idol, that's party of false decorum. That's like, that's like exactly what Chris Paul talks about just from a different angle, but it's the same thing. That's the party of false decorum, the false decorum being the harmony and maintaining that above all else. And I think that's a real problem with the Western Christian church is that they're terrified to take a stand and to, you know, know, to, well, to be the actual hands and feet, terrified to flip the tables, terrified to address this rot in our society and in that, in turning harmony into an idol, they've allowed that

rot to infect their church and to become a part of it. Yeah, well, because I think the messaging is that by doing that, by turning harmony into an idol, that's how you attract more people to the church, by being opening, by being the big tent that just opens and accepts everybody. Doesn't matter. It's like it doesn't matter what kind of sin you're in and it doesn't matter how much you indulge it. I mean, of course, we're all sinners, but by embracing and celebrating the sin, I think the idea is that you can attract more people to the tent. And yeah, then you're indistinguishable from the temple of Pan. Yes. Wow. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's where you end up.

All right. So the next part I have is, let's see, did you want to play the Tamar? I think so because it teased. I mean, we can skip past Tamar if you want, but the part where he apologizes, I want to play. Yeah, I just want to make sure I'm getting to the right spot. Okay, I have it right here, I believe. Yeah, here it is. Okay.

Jay, Jay Atkinson, 58 says they are afraid to flip the tables because they don't want to lose members who contribute financially. Yes, also because they don't want to lose their tax status. If they say, you know, mean things, then they might, the government might take their special tax status away. And all of these things are ungodly incentives. Yes, exactly. Which, by the way, that goes back to the guy standing at the window, like he had bought all of his family's debt. And he's like, now they don't have debt, they don't have to worry about paying off the tax debt. That's on me now because we saw what happened to Simon when he had a huge tax debt and the lengths he was willing to go to try to pay it off.

Yeah, and that's the church trying to, you know, avoid having to pay off their tax debt. Yes. So how do you decide? He said what? What to include? Oh. I noticed you didn't write down the exchange of the merchant. It was important, I would know.

But how? There's this look that Jesus gives me, and then I know. We have an understanding. You must feel so honored. To be a scribe? I suppose. Matthew, are you killing one? Hmm?

Haven't eaten any of pistachios? Oh. I'm saving them for later. Was that the look? Does he want you to write down this conversation? With me? No. I'm supposed to be doing something else.

Excuse me, Tamar. Shalom. You want to finish those? You can have them. Andrew, could I have a moment with your brother? Sorry, no. You have to submit a formal request to speak to the Rock. In the writing, I'm joking.

I'm joking. Oh, I'm joking. Oh, of course you got. I'm going to watch James and John Pout. Morning. I'm sorry. I say good morning. No, I heard you.

I said I'm sorry. So what I did to you. It has been over a year now and I realize I never actually apologize for my role in your flight with your tax debt and for colluding with Quintus on reporting your activity. Strange. After the sermon, the big one. I immediately went to my parents to apologize for my actions. I should have gone to you next. And now my feelings are worse and they won't be better if I don't ask for your forgiveness.

So that's what I'm doing now. Well, actually, I'm just saying I'm sorry. Forgiveness is a gift that you can give or not give. Remember that Jesus said, you don't apologize because you want forgiveness. You apologize because that's the right thing to do, right? like we were talked about, you make it right. And he kind of gets this vibe here that he's not going to accept his apology. He's not going to forgive him.

And that's Laura Hay says a challenge for them both. Yeah. It's a difficult exchange. And when there's a debt between us, you know, us humans, particularly ones that we're in, you know, tight relationships with, if you don't resolve it, it grows investors as theirs has. Yeah. Yeah, but Matthews cleared his side of the ledger. He's cleared. He's cleared his side of the ledger.

Now it's all on Peter's side of the ledger. Yeah. Peter, it's pretty late. I could say the same to you. I suppose you could. Something keeping you up? I could ask the same with you. What do I do when there is someone who has sinned against me,

egregiously, repeatedly, and without repentance? You have to imagine who that would be. The betrayal of our people by working for Rome, that was one. That was a sin against all of us and our heritage. He showed no mercy when Andrew begged him for extra time on his tribute debt and even charged an extra 60% on what was passed too. You know I was gonna let Rome seize our boat as collateral, which would have taken our ability to work and landed us both in jail,

meaning Eden could have starved. I'd even hesitate for a moment when Quintus asked him to spy on me. I'm up to seven, and I haven't even gone to the fact that he was full ready to turn me in the morning that... The morning that what? He may have been ready to turn you in. But it didn't come to that. So for the moment, let's keep it at seven.

Against me seven times and I'm supposed to just forgive that. No. Not seven. But 77 times. I could stack him up that high if I really broke down each offense and the consequences. You know, I don't mean literally 77 times. 77 times. 70 times seven. Completion times completion.

Endless forgiveness. Without limits. Look, a couple of days ago, you gave me a new name and made big proclamations. But whether my name is Simon or Peter, I'm still the same and I was the day before that. I'm still human. And I can't do it. I can't. And no one would blame me.

You mentioned the consequences of Matthew's actions. What are the circumstances they put you in? Yeah, that's all I can think about. That's why I'm out here and not asleep next to Eden. But after that, some rows. Does everything else to be? He leans on his own understanding. You know why there's...

The stick throwing is like really what's sold that. I can't throw them stick. This is like, I mean, this is, there's so much truth in what they're conveying here. You know, the... Okay. There is no doubt. doubt that without, and this is just personal anecdote, but you know, personal anecdote, and we're looking at something that's historical fiction, but I can speak as something. It's not historical fiction. There's no doubt that I would not be here talking to you right now. I wouldn't know any of you. I wouldn't be badlands media, any of this stuff. If the things that happened related, if my brother wasn't killed, if the corrupt, if the, if the prosecutor was like the corrupt prosecutor didn't need to be dealt with. If that didn't send me down that path because of that path. Because of that path. I did an interview with my friend Warhamster, the guy who joined us on the interview,

then contacted me separately and said, hey, we should start having these political discussions. Then we started doing a podcast. That podcast led me to write for the substack. And then that led to me coming to Gart and here. All of that was just serendipity, one thing after the next. It was a series of events that in the grand scheme, it's hard to even look at it. like how did that even happen? Like, how did I stumble into all of this?

And I was having this conversation at the wedding because I was with a friend who's, our parents dated when we were in high school, so we became like siblings kind of, she was the first person I called after I called all my family members when we found my brother. And she asked me, she was like, what are you going to do when you see that,

because this guy got out of prison in February. So he's like, just this last February? Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's out of prison now. So he was in prison for four years. So they were like, what are you going to do? Like, what are you going to do? For murder? Yeah.

Well, he went for manslaughter. The murder charge got reduced to manslaughter. For taking a life, he got four years. Yeah, yeah. But honestly, all the lawyers involved, like many, many lawyers were involved in terms of just like counseling and talking to us. They were all shocked he got that much because they were like, he's going to get a year and a half, two years maybe. our justice system is so much worse than everybody thinks. But judges, though, were all amazing.

I got to say it, but judges were all amazing. They were all, like, very, very good, solid judges. But a lot of my friends have already, like, run into the guy, you know, like, they've already seen him around. And for years, I mean, it took five years to put him in prison, like, five years of, like, fighting. And I just heard stories nonstop of people running into them. That's, like, all I heard whenever I saw people, to the point where I got sick of it. And I honestly, like, looked at her and I was like, I honestly might, might look at him and just say, I forgive you. Like, I, not because I think I'm better than it, not because I think it does something for me necessarily.

But the more I've thought about it, it's like, what is holding on to that do for you, you know? Because for years, I held onto it. And it's like, that's what drove me to, like, go after the prosecutor. And, like, I mean, it was a fire, right, that, like, brought resolution all. Ultimately, it gave me full closure. But what is holding on to that beyond it do? It just eats away at you. And then you just think about it all the time, which I don't anymore.

I used to think about it every day. But then once I got the closure, I was able to move on. And I don't even think about it anymore unless somebody brings it up to me, which I don't mind when they do. Because I can talk about it very bluntly. But when you hold onto this stuff, I really do think it takes you away from like, living in the moment, it takes you away from like the things that you want to accomplish. It distracts you from the, you know, your goals, your mission, like all that stuff. And while I think all of it is done for a purpose, because like I just said, I mean,

it led one thing to the next and it led me here speaking to you. Holding on to it, it's like, what does it do, you know? It's not like I'm going to go, you know, have dinner with the guy or like hang out with them, spend time with them, but what is, or seek him out even, but it's like, what is holding on to that even do? It just does, it does nothing, um, for me. So, or for my family or for anyone else. So, you know, and so I was talking with my friend about this and, um, and I think she understood too because, uh, you know, she was like a, like I said, like a sibling as well. Um, and just talking it out, um, you know, that's, that's, that's it though, because like Simon's sitting

here is eating him away he's sitting here like festering over it festering over what matthew did um and i understand like matthew almost ruined his life i mean matthew destroyed him but if matthew hadn't done that if he hadn't been the autistic tax collector traitor to the jewish community simon would have never met jesus there would have never been a reason for him to be on the boat he would have never been that desperate he would have never had uh that moment where the were the where the net, you know, if Jesus had walked out on a random Tuesday and fill his net with fish, oh, great, I can, you know, I'm going to be rich for a little bit. I'm going to be able to feed my family.

But he wasn't at a point of desperation where filling that net fundamentally changed his life and came at a moment where he like dropped to his knees and recognized what he was, like what he was looking at. So all those circumstances, I think that the totality of the sum of it, that's God's plan, right? And again, it's not about the glory of Simon. It's not about the glory of anyone. But now Simon is a vessel. He's an instrument to go do something else, right? To go spread the word, that go spread the ministry. So now he becomes like a seed that proliferates and then spreads more seeds. And then those seeds spread more seeds. And it's about the seeds spreading more seeds than it is about, you know, this, credible thing that happened to Simon on the beach. Yeah, there's this person in the chat,

and I just want to address this and then we'll move on from it. As I understand this position, it is that forgiveness is a fiction that was created by the deep state. The archons rule this mess. Jesus took a whip out. He said he would return with a sword next. You shouldn't let it fester, but there are times when one needs to not just forgive forever. That is a holy unbiblical worldview. And if you don't understand the purpose and point of forgiveness, then you miss the gospel. As Babbage said, without forgiveness, there is no gospel.

The good news of the gospel is forgiveness because sin is what separates us from God. And so if you do not have forgiveness from sin from God, for sin from God, then you are separate from God for eternity. The only way to have forgiveness from sin or sin from God is the blood of Jesus Christ in the worldview of the follower of Jesus. And so minimizing and diminishing the role of forgiveness is a very shaky foundation that you are standing on. And it's unbiblical. And it's now, you know, kind of flooding the chat. but you know I mean yeah and and you know like let's not conflate um forgiveness with just with what

we were talking about earlier with like making harmony right that's not it yeah because those are two different things like like just just forgiving everything and then you become like nihilistic where just nothing matter right yeah just be a dormant that's not because because remember like in the anecdote of simon in this in the show he is uh you know he is moving heaven and earth so to speak in his little world to try to pay off this debt, which is what puts him on that boat all night and in the situation where he can be on the beach that morning and meet Jesus. In my situation, it put me on this path to take on this local politician who I learned through the course of our dispute had hurt like a lot of people in his life. He was, you know, he had, he was part

of like an insurance fraud scheme where like 17,000 people lost their jobs because of it at a trucking company and, you know, people were being shot in like broad daylight. And as a prosecutor, he wasn't, yeah, he wasn't going after the, like he let the, let the guy who shot him in broad daylight go. Um, some 15 year old girl was shot at a barbecue. Um, the cops found the weapon after like eight years of investigating, found the weapon at the guys of the suspect they thought out of 300 people at the party. They went to the one guy's house, found the weapon. It matched the ballistics and everything. And because this guy screwed up the paperwork as he was lazy in court. the guy walked and the 15 year old girls killer just got off and then he went um across the the river

and killed somebody else like the next week and then when and then when the sheriff and his men went into the prosecutor's office to tell him he looked at him and said i don't give a shit that's not my county it's like this guy was evil okay and like removing him from power was like it that became like a mission that was like i was possessed by it and then once it was done it was done it was like once it was done, it was done, and now I can let it go. So yes, forgiveness. It's like the forgiveness comes, but it wasn't immediate. It's like there's a fire that stokes in you to drive you to do something. And then once the thing is accomplished, the fire is out. Like Simon's fire was being on the boat in the morning and being on that beach, right? Like without that fire in his belly to try

do save his family from the tax debt, he wouldn't have been on that boat. He would have just given up and gone and accepted his fate and he would have never met Jesus. So I can appreciate the idea that nihilism is evil. Yes, like nihilism is evil. But forgiving something at a certain point, I think also releases yourself from a prison that you put yourself in when you suffer like terrible trauma. That's the whole point of why we forgive, right? So forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who have trespassed against us. We forgive because God forgave us.

But forgiveness is not easy, especially in some of these egregious wrongs, right? Like somebody kills your brother. Forgiveness is very, very difficult. But if you don't, if you hold on to the wrong and it festers and it becomes part of you and it maybe becomes a part of your drive. Like think of all the comic book movies and every villain's backstory starts with some egregious wrong, right? Like there's some wrong and they can't let it go and it festers and they become the big

bad, the evil. That is about you. It's not about the person that wronged you. Forgiveness is not about the person that wronged you. It's about the condition of your own heart. And we forgive because Jesus forgave us and we don't deserve that. God forgave us through the blood of Jesus. We don't deserve it.

You cannot earn it. You don't deserve it. It is a free gift. And we're supposed to be like Jesus. And remember what General Quas said at one of the guards. It was one of the early ones. Maybe it was Dallas. Maybe it was Irvine.

The cycle of war, the cycle of violence, right? It's like one tribe or one group wrongs the other. And then their children then get revenge on the other. And then their children get revenge. on the other and it's a blood libel, right? And it's like, well, you did this to me. So now, like to my family, to my tribes, now I have to get revenge.

That's justice. Then the other side has to get justice. And the only way to break the cycle is that one side has to forgive, right? Has to forget. Doesn't mean you forget. Doesn't mean you let it keep happening. Yeah, exactly. It's like you forgive.

And then you, and then as General Quas said in that moment, then you teach your children to adopt that mantra as well. so that it then sustains. Only then do you break the cycle of war and can actually have peace and tranquility, and then your children can have a better life than being sent off to war every few years to fight and die. So it's for a greater good, ultimately.

And it's hard to see that in the moment. You can be blinded by rage. But I think once you get through it, you can look back and say, yeah, that was actually the best decision I could have made because you will spend your life consumed by, something that if you got over the obstacle, you could move on and do greater things. Agreed.

All right. So I think what we should do is we're going to punt in addition to Thomas and Rehma. We're going to punch Schmuel and Yusuf to next week, just in the interest of time. I want to play the end of this story arc, Simon and Matthew. And then we will read boosts and rants and. Yeah. The one thing that was interesting about Schmiel, as I'm finding the right time stamp, is the elevation of Shmuel with the elevation of Peter

happening in the same episode? Yes, absolutely. And we will talk about that next week because that is a much, that's a much longer conversation than we can get into in the little, little time left. But I think that was a really, a very impactful creative choice that we should, we should break down and discuss. Okay, here we go. How much could those possibly get us?

You'll be surprised. It's just a starter. It will work. I forgive you. To the ends of the earth, right? It's over. Okay. So because Matthew went against his natural inclination, which was not to address it to make harmony the idol, right? And to break the piece and to bring it up. Not only does he get the closure there.

I mean, he had like the moment where he's expressing emotion, which is not something we see Matthew do. Matthew is not the least emotional character in the show. We also get this moment dramatic moment that happens in front of all the other apostles. So again, this is historical fiction, yes. Yes. But for the sake of storytelling, all the other apostles now have witnessed this powerful moment of forgiveness. And then now they are all, that's all seared into their hearts. They all understand the power of forgiveness now because of what they've witnessed,

because Matthew made the decision to forgive Simon first. So again, fiction, but the idea of God's plan, all these little things happening, these little moments happening. And some of them seem mundane. Some of them seem irrelevant. And then they all add up to that climax, that climatic ending. And I think everyone who witnessed it walks away with a greater appreciation for why forgiveness is important. Yeah, it was modeled for them in a very dramatic way. excuse me in the um you know by by the the the two people with the most long running beef

in their little group and that um that that's a that's a powerful thing and uh it makes it makes me choke up i want to see yeah and not to mention the guy with the biggest ego in the room right simon i mean he has the biggest ego of anyone there um and we and ego death is something we've talked about throughout the entire series, right? And that was a- Which he doesn't actually get to until after Jesus's death. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. Interesting.

But yeah, but you, but you see little moments where it's like that was a big, I mean, that was a big blow to his ego. His ego just shrank significantly in that moment, right? And it's all about getting it as small as you possibly can make it. Again, Judas is not having any of these moments. Everyone else is having these moments. Matthew just had it himself when he apologized initially. but it's just interesting that we don't see this happening in Judas, but it happens to everyone else.

Absolutely. So we have a Badlands Booth from Urich. Thank you, Ash and Gordon, for this wonderful show. You are very welcome. It is our honor to do it. And thank you for your incredibly generous rant because you help us continue to do it when you guys support us. And we do appreciate that. We have a Rumba rant from One with Cats.

What's up, girl. It's good to see you. This show does a great job of showing the human, weakness of the apostles. Yes. I think that they make some really great choices. And there's, you know, as we've talked about, there's some choices to, to disagree with and to, you know, get all, bothered by. But the, some of the choices showing the humanity, like in the beginning, seen when Andrew and Jesus are talking and they're laughing and they're like, oh my gosh, this tastes like Elijah's bones. And you see like the humor. I think that's probably how it was.

You know, I mean, they were speaking with different language and jokes were probably a different different thing at the time, right? But there's nothing new under the sun and humans are humans. And so I love showing, I love how they've chosen to show the humanity of, you know, these giants that we know, that we know, for the follower of Jesus that become, you know, key parts of our worldview and but they were there humans. And I think that we can learn a lot from that. Have you ever read Chaucer's Canterbury Tales? Oh my gosh, not since I was in high school. Yeah, but but I wouldn't mean either. But what I remember from it, I mean, it's like what, 800 years old?

I don't know how old it is, but it's something like that, like 800 years old, the stories. That like the most crass and crude humor you could imagine in that and those stories. It's like something you would see today and be like, oh, like the degradation of society. It's like look how much society is degradated and how far we've fallen from, you know, the medieval chivalry of 800 years ago. It's like, no, they actually were doing far and true jokes like 800 years ago as well. Yeah, sure. And I don't think that Jesus would have been crass and crude, but I think he would have been hilarious. Yeah, but it just goes to show that human nature is human nature in times a flat circle.

And the more things change, the more they stay the same. And that humans are always human. And the thing that breaks us out of that cycle is Jesus. Yeah, you know, another example of that is the, the idea that our political rhetoric is too vitriolic in the United States of America. And then if you go back and you look at like the political cartoons and the thing from, you know, not just like I always go back to the founding era, right? And it was they were pretty savage back then. But if you look at like continuing forward through the Civil War era and reconstruction and the, Thomas Nass cartoons about Tammany Hall and Boss Tweed and all of these things.

Like, I mean, they had, they had like the Thomas Nass has this naturalization mill talking about fake voters, big ballots, fit counts essentially in the 1860s or 1870s. And he's got, um, uh, migrants being thrown into like a meat grinder coming out as Democrat votes. And if we did that today, you would be canceled. It would be, it would be removed. But, you know, our. be arrested for inciting violence like yeah absolutely yeah so it's it's just yeah it's crazy there's nothing new under the sun uh babbage great show guys thank you so much we appreciate you um and then

one with cats again i could listen to ashen ghost discuss almost anything for hours thanks for another great show we do have a good time talking we do yeah like i said i i i've come to enjoy the show probably more than anything else any other other content especially when the content and the other areas gets repetitive and a little, I don't know, just a little stale. Yeah, this stuff is fun. Yeah. And then we never run out of things to talk about yesterday, although we crushed yesterday on the daily because I had said on X, like, Ghost and I are going to try and get through two topics

because that's usually what we're able to accomplish in two hours. Yeah. Through two topics. And I think we got through four or five. Yeah, we did at least four or five. We crushed it. I don't know if Brian was happy with our work product, but he'll be all right. All right, everybody, please hit the like button.

If you want to hear Ghost and I have more conversations, both on screen, on stage, and off at the bar, at the, you know, wherever, the karaoke place at the, we do that. And you can do that at Gart, Badlandsmedia.com. Come hang out with us at Gart. Get yourself disclosure and use promo code lotion raider. and of course buy gold at badlands gold.com use promo code badlands and get oregano oil and a whole bunch of other stuff, but definitely the oregano oil from Jordan at conscious strength, badlandsmedia.tv.tv slash strength. With that, we're going to get out of here. Please hit the like button.

We definitely appreciate you guys and we will see you next week for episode three. And episode threes in this series are always something different, right? They always do, Dallas Jenkins always does something with the. episode three. So next week should be good. Good point. Bye guys. Thank you so much for joining us. And don't forget to hit the thumbs up on this video. And a special thank you to all of our advertising partners. Please remember to shift your dollars to support those businesses that support Badlands Media.