Badlands Media - The Choice: Season 4 Recap - Humility, Judas, and the Road to Season 5

Episode Date: July 30, 2026

Ashe in America and Ghost close the book on Season 4 of The Chosen with a full recap, and honestly, it is a lot to unpack. They trace the season's throughline of humility versus ego across nearly every major character, from the shock of John the Baptist's execution in episode one to Judas's slow drift toward betrayal by the finale. Expect a candid breakdown of how the show handles Shmuel and Yusuf's opposite reactions to witnessing Lazarus raised, why Judas is written as sympathetic rather than purely villainous, and how faith, grief, and false humility show up again and again this season. The hosts also share a few behind the scenes notes about the show's format shifting as they head into the final season, plus a laugh or two courtesy of their sponsors. It is a warm, reflective conversation for anyone who has followed along, and a great primer before Season 5 kicks off with Palm Sunday next week.

The badlands, one of the badlands, explain those badlands. That's a hell of their name. Good morning, everybody, and welcome to The Choice. It is our season four recap episode. See, I got it right, season four, not season eight, like last week. It was all discombobulated. But it's the season four recap. We have one season left of this show until we are caught up and watching live

and, you know, doing it week over week when the show comes out. So that's exciting. And I think we might, we talked a little bit about this, but we might change up the show format and not play clips when we get into season five, or season six rather, so that we can stream to all the platforms, plus the show will be live. So it'll be, you know, kind of more, it makes more sense to do it that way. Yeah, more topical, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Now we are recording this show. And we're recording it like almost a week in advance. So if anything earth shattering, if the rapture happens or, you know, so we won't be covering it on this show because we're recording a week in advance. But season four, great, great season. Really accelerated the storyline in season four. And we're going to get into all of those details.

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your money back guaranteed. That's always great. It deals with your internal systems. And I use that product as well. Finally, you'll see I'm wearing my soft disclosure shirt because I just feel like we need to moisturize our souls. We can't stop your sense. We have to deliver all of these soft disclosure gift cards.

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But I brought soft disclosure lotion with me so people could try it. And people immediately, multiple people immediately just started putting it on their elbows. Really? Yeah. That's funny. That's funny. It was. It was funny.

All right. So what do you know, let's just do like start with reactions to season four. Well, let's start with, let's kind of start with the overall, I think, arc of like what happens with season four. I think season four, there's a lot of different complexities that are being explored, but also interwoven. Humility, like ego death, that's kind of a recurring theme over the many seasons, especially is introduced in the beginning of season two. And then here, I think we're really seeing that reinforced. We're seeing dichotomies emerge between those who have ego death, those who don't.

We're seeing the difference between humility and not having humility. And then we also get some pretty good examples of what the false, what false humility can look like, like in that scene that we talked about last week with Judas and Shmuel and, you know, hidden motives and that sort of thing. But if we back up like every single episode, I mean, every episode of the show, I feel like is significant, but we really get some significant plot development in every single episode of this season.

Remember, it starts off with John being executed, John the Baptist being executed. That's the end of the first episode, which is a jarring moment, I think, for just all the characters in the show, even the people who do it, including King Herod. That then leads right into the disciples sitting Shiva, going to, sitting Shiva, rather, going to, that place the name escapes me, Cessori Philippi, is that right? Cessori Philippi, yep. Yeah, and then that's where, you know,

they're at the temple of whatever, Ball, Moloch, whatever it is, the temple of Pan where they are sacrificing things, maybe children, there certainly seem to be feciality or whatever happening. And it's just really gross. And then in that, that's the moment

where we get the rename of Simon to Peter. On this rock, I will build my church. Opinions vary on the interpretation, but we can at least agree that this is where we get the foundation stone of belief that Jesus is the Messiah and that only through him can salvation be achieved. And the challenges of these disciples to understand the mission without understanding where it's leading, to believe in Jesus without really understanding where he's going, where he's leading them. From there, we get a deep exploration, I think, into loss and grief confession. We already had Simon battling with the fact that he lost his unborn child,

the relationship to him and his wife, how that was impacting them. We didn't lose Rama, who's been a pretty central character throughout the whole show despite not being a disciple. the impact that has on Thomas because Thomas goes from being at like the highest of highs and like in love and all that to just absolutely hollowed out and despondent and blackpilled. And we even kind of see that as a, you know, almost cynical at the end of the season. And then we get suicidal. Suicidal. Yeah, yeah.

We get Gaius, we get the elevation of Gaius because Gaius is as a result of Ramos death. Gaius is elevated from whatever his title was before to Pre to Preeter of Copernium. He has a lot of moments of humility where he has to basically swallow his pride in a lot of ways and defy orders when he's ordered to go in and break up the camp and he doesn't do it, right? And that lead to the culmination of like Ramon being killed. And then bringing, bringing Simon to his house to meet to meet his wife and to see his son. And admitting that his son is, admitting that the servant boy is his son, his bastard son, and the shame that he now feels, which he never felt before, that he engaged, that he's a product of adultery. That heart conversion.

The heart conversion. And then him coming as preter, as the top man in the town, the city, coming to the Jewish neighborhood, coming to the house and dropping to his knees and proclaiming Jesus as being a Lord and Savior. and then saying, you don't even need to come to my house. You can just say the word and you will save my son. Please just go ahead and do it. And Jesus being taken back because once again, it was a Gentile who demonstrated to his followers what real faith looks like. So we see all the rewards kind of being bestowed upon Gaius.

I have no problem with that. I don't think that it's a situation where if you are the only way that, they get rewards in life are to be like a great humble servant of God. I think great humble servants of God are faced with traumatic loss, grief, all the hardships. Jesus says that. He says that bones will be broken. Things are going to happen. Raymond is going to be killed. She won't be brought back. But we get Gaius again elevated. So at the end of the season, he is just like, please tell Jesus how much I love him and he's great. And we have a real follower of Christ as the leader of a Roman, of a Roman leadership.

And then of course we get them go to Jerusalem. We get the confrontation between Jesus and the Pharisees. We get the attempted stoning. We get the death of Lazarus, Jesus' best friend, and then the resurrection of Lazarus and the impact that has not only on the world, but on Thomas, on the group, and how that will be the final miracle. And then the season closes out really with this confrontation between the Pharisees,

or at least the sympathetic parties of the Pharisees. Shmuel. Yeah, Shmuel and Jesus in this private setting, Lazarus's house. And we really see the seedlings of Judas, of the betrayal being laid in the final conversation we see between Shmuel and Judas, who they're not,

it's not like, oh yeah, let's talk more. He's actually like, I shouldn't be speaking to you. You and I are not the same. But Shmuel is like, we should speak again, man. Like you seem to be the only one

who's reasonable in this whole thing. But again, their humility is not actual humility. They all, they have hidden motives as to why they were objecting to what they were witnessing. And they actually are not good people. And when it comes to like what those motives are. Yeah, I think that's a great recap of kind of the journey we've been on in season four. And if I had to pull out like what is the theme of the season, I think it would be expectation kind of crashing into reality.

We see that over and over again and we see it with kind of everybody's interactions with Jesus. You see it in the, you know, the kind of the Jewish expectation of what the Messiah is going to be, who the Messiah is going to be, and what he's going to do. I always go back to the scene with Nicodemus where he says, our people aren't suffering from snake bites. They're suffering under oppression and taxation under Rome, and we need to throw off Rome. And Jesus is like, no, you're suffering under sin because you have forgotten your first love. You have forgotten your father in heaven.

You are not doing all things for the glory of God. The Pharisees have created a false religion at this point in the eyes of God. because the system set up that was fulfilled with Jesus, that system has certain requirements. It's not, you know, if you go back and read Deuteronomy 28, if you do these things and stay in my protection and provision and prosperity, then you're going to be all good. If you don't, you run after other nations and you intermingle with them and you intermarry with them and you accept their customs and you ultimately accept their gods, which leads you to sacrifice your children to their gods. gods, then you won't be in, you know, in my protection and provision. And they have chosen the ladder. And they have defined. And we see this at the time of, you know, Jesus walking the earth. They have created their, you see it in Schmuel, right, when he's arguing with Jesus. He's made

the law his God. He is not, he is not worshiping God the Father. He is worshiping the law. And it's not surprising because the law is what gives him his power. And we see that with the Pharisees, but even with the disciples, we see that their expectation is they're going to be elevated to greatness. Now, most of them have had the ego death and kind of that collision of their expectations with reality in their walk with Jesus up to this point. When, you know, you mentioned the, at Cessoraya Philippi when Peter has his name changed. Simon has his name change to Peter. And this side note, the show did a really good job of like expressing how weird that

would have been. Like they all keep accidentally calling him Simon and, you know, for a couple episodes afterwards. But, and there is a dispute over what on this rock means. It's actually two different religions that were created. out of that statement. And I think both of them sort of missed the point. Because it is the confession of Simon where he says, you are the Christ, you are the son of God.

That confession, who do you say that I am, is the entire point. It is the question that every individual must answer. And you can't inherit it. You don't get it from your parents. You can't learn about it and say the words, but not have the heart condition. It's a very intimate, very personal question. And it's from the very beginning before Jesus's death, it is central to why he came. And I loved last week's episode, the season for episode 8th, the finale, especially the throwback to David and anointing the feet of the lamb.

the importance of the atoning sacrifice and how all of that system has been fulfilled in Jesus is it is so, so important to understanding, you know, what's the point of this? What is, you know, who is Jesus and why does he matter and why did he come the way that he did? Why was it all so lowly? Right? This is what Schmuel had a problem with. You want me to identify with the poor and the widows and the, you know, the homeless people? Like, what are we, what are we even talking?

about and it is a um Jesus is the great equalizer there is no one good not one no no one comes to the father except through me and I think that the show has done a really good job of showing the tension that I think probably existed and we can we can deduce that it exists when you're going to read Paul's letters all of the things that that um the early church the first church in their different factions across the region we're struggling with and arguing with. These are the substance of Paul's letters to a lot of these churches, right? And you find that it's the same kind of stuff we're arguing about today. We were at Gart in Deadwood and my face went kind of viral among the Badlands community because one of the woman that I've spoken to, I think she's lovely,

I love her to pieces, but she said that the resurrection of Jesus Christ didn't happen, that he didn't die and he didn't resurrect. He was just in a coma. And that, that was that it's not a new idea that is a that is first corinthians 15 Paul directly addresses this idea because that was something that everybody was or not everybody but certain factions were thinking even in the you know the earliest when you still had firsthand witnesses right you still had firsthand witnesses that walked with Jesus and you have people saying oh no he wasn't dead like Thomas stuck his finger the hole in his hand spoiler alert but you you know you know So these questions and challenges that the church today is wrestling with are the same questions and challenges.

There's nothing new under the sun that the church was struggling with in the immediate wake of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and in the centuries that followed. I think the show has done a really good job showing that clash of expectation versus reality consistently through all four seasons. But certainly in this one, you still. Jesus start to get frustrated about it, right? Like, why aren't you guys getting this yet? And of course, he knows they're not going to get it, right? Because they just, they can't see it. Mary Magdalene seems to get it. Lazarus seems to get it. And then the last thing I'll say kind of about your recap is the Gaius versus Lazarus is really important, I think. Because Gaius, we know that Jesus could have raised him from afar. When he got the second he got that letter, he could have been like,

You know, nah, he's not dead, right? He has that power. He has the power to do anything you want. And he's demonstrated that through his miracles, through his ministry. But he, and with Gaius, that moment was so special when Gaius was like, I don't want you in my house. My house is a house of sin. You can't come into my house. But you can heal him from afar, and I know you can.

Just say the word. Just say the word and it'll be done. And Jesus is so moved by that demonstration of faith that he, does it, right? He could have done the same with Lazarus when he first got the letter that Lazarus was sick, but he didn't because it had to happen this way. And Lazarus needed to be, I think, resurrected in that very public way for, with all of those witnesses and those specific witnesses for the plan to continue to unfold because this miracle, this final miracle, is a a massive escalation for the Pharisees.

And that's how we see, you know, Schmuel and Yusuf and everybody get, Shmuel and Yusuf and his father, whose name, I can't remember, end up at, you know, at the meeting where they have that just incredible scene from last week. Yeah, it's a good point. I really think that the, you know, the big difference there is with Gaias, he had, he had the conversion of the heart. He made it very clear his heart was converted. He was a believer.

But then once that moment occurs, he is totally fortified. Like he's all in. There's no backing out for him, right? Like there's no backing out for him. And he's now also in a position of power where I think he can actually help in the future. And we talked about in the last show how the show is clearly about the disciples. I mean, Jesus is the main character, of course. God is the main character.

You've made that point eloquently many times. But the show is actually, it's called The Chosen. It is about the disciples. and the showrunners have made it clear they're going to continue the show after the crucifixion. And I think there's going to be some great opportunity to see how people like Gaius, people like Joanna, people who are in positions of influence, people like Nicodemus, are able to help them post-crucifixion, sustain, maintain the ministry so that it all survives because it is very possible for this all to be snuffed out, right, with enough brute force. this the memory of this could be snuffed out and then it's all in vain like everything that's happened

is now in vain because the world doesn't remember remember what happened and that's kind of why that is why Lazarus had to happen the way it did. Gaius was a more personal moment where it was more about rewarding this personal moment of faith in front of his disciples the disciples saw all this happened with Lazarus it was a public show where you had it was very well communicated I think to the audience that Lazarus was this really important person. You had important people there, like Youseth's father, where they were walking around and random people like, oh, Lazarus, oh, Lazarus, random people like all over the place knew who Lazarus was, even before I think he died.

And so the fact that he died and then was resurrected, that story, I think, is so critical to what you were saying before, the conversation of, well, did Jesus actually die or did he just go into a coma? Well, we already saw that he brought Lazarus back to life. And there's no disputing the fact that Lazarus was dead because he was in there for four days. And four days about water, you're dead regardless. So he's dead. And he comes back to life.

That also introduces the whole necromancy thing. There's actually a nice dichotomy, I think, between like that moment and then the moment, Cesarapha, Philippi, where, like, they're actually at this pagan temple and this awful stuff is happening. And you see the guy, like, you know, dissecting the bird and all that. you know the witch doctor whatever like the shaman um trails yeah because that guy probably does practice necromancy right like he probably does think he can bring people back from the dead and maybe he who knows maybe he has through mysticism because there are dark arts and there are people who uh you know cabala who claim that they can tap into the powers of god and are they tapping into

the powers of god or are they you know tapping into the powers of satan i think those are conversations that are worth having um but the point is is that that this sets the stage Lazarus really sets the stage for what's going to happen and that's what Jesus says to Lazarus when he says why me like why did this have that why was it it wasn't about you it wasn't about the who

it was about the win and the timing of this and the fact that I you know had to go to Jerusalem and get stoned by them and escape and let them know like what I am like I'm going to walk up and say I'm God yeah I'm a son of God like deal with it and then

and then raise this really important person back from the dead. And then everyone's going to be talking about it. And now, like, to the point where even at the dinner between Pontchus Pilate, the Roman governor and, and the king, the Jewish king, King Herod, they're talking about it. It's like, and they're actually very worried about it. They're not just talking about it as like a fun story. They're talking about it like, dude, this is actually a little scary.

Like, this might be bad for us. I also think they did a really, really great job of showing the different culture. like showing the Roman culture, showing the Jewish culture, showing the good, the bad, the ugly of kind of all of it. The good, the bag of the ugly of the Jewish culture, you know, obviously you have the Sanhedron, the Pharisees. They're absolutely in the pit of evil. They're already in the pit of hell, right? They have no interest in serving God. They explicitly say that where Shmuel and Yusuf are like, these people are not serving God.

And Shmu Yosef is like, yeah, you think? Like, yeah, they're not serving God. They're serving themselves. You also have that great moment with the Romans, a few of them. I mean, like with Gaius having the conversion of the heart, the conversations between Pontius Pilate and Atticus, where it's very clear that Atticus is starting to have the conversion of the heart. He's very curious about it.

He can't explain what he's seeing. He's buying in, like, these miracles are actually happening, whether it's, you know, witchcraft or something else, I don't know. But this man who is all knowing as far as you could be in terms of from a secular position can't explain what he's seeing. And it's also clear that there's not malice towards Jesus, natural malice from the Romans, in the way that there is from the Sanhedron, where they don't necessarily perceive Jesus as a threat. You saw this with Quintus, of course, that there's not a natural malice or natural threat because they have lots of gods that they, like, who cares? This guy's a God,

who cares? It doesn't matter to us. But it only becomes a threat when the, when the, when the Sanhedron's like, hey, this is a concern. This might turn her into the Maccabees. And the last thing I'll say is just that walk the extra mile moment where those soldiers are all being bullies to Jesus and them. And they're like, yeah, like, yeah, like y'all are a bunch of scrubs, y'all are a bunch of nerds. You know, it's like the jocks. They put their hats on them. Yeah, it's the jocks. There's like a law. They have to carry their stuff or something. That's what you're talking about, right? Yeah, for no more than a mile. They have to drop all their stuff and carry their stuff for a mile. And it's, it's very reminiscent of

like a movie from the 90s like the jocks picking on the nerds that's like what it was and then the the nerds then their responses rather than you know just like rebuking them and throwing the stuff down after a mile as they say all right we'll just walk you all the way there and the impact that it has on the jocks where they're like oh and and all like they're humbled in that moment they're humbled and they're like let me take that from you man like like you don't need to carry this by yourself and there is a message there, I think that Jesus was demonstrating to all of us, because this is a story that's not recorded, that if you have humility and you engage in humility, even in the face of like rebuke and even in the face of like of people disrespecting you, you can actually win those people

ever. I've seen this happen in my personal life throughout my life where people who don't respect you, don't like you, rebuke you. If you are humble and you find a way to humble yourself in front of them, you can actually win them over. And the point isn't, of course, to win them over, but the point is just to be Christ-like and practice the teachings. And in doing so, the net effect, the side effect might be that these people are no longer your rival, enemy, whatever it is. And I do think it's a way that people come together in a positive way, because those Romans are probably not going to treat the next group of Jews they see the same way that they treated those guys. Yeah, you can definitely infer that. And I think that the, the,

way that the show has treated the Romans generally is very interesting because you see the um you know everything we hear about the Romans the the um kind of prioritization of order the taxation that is what you know ran their kingdom allowed them to expand they get you know kind of parasitic in a way right go in get dependent upon the you know Roman building infrastructure and doing things for you and then you're hooked on taxes. And, you know, you're in. I remember learning about that when I was in Pompeii in 2024. And hearing a tour guide talk about how the people of Pompeii,

the Pompeians, who were not originally Roman, right? They were Pompeians. And they resisted the Roman influence in their town as long as they could. And then there was an earthquake. And when the earthquake happened, you know, all the stuff broke down. All the wealthy people bounced and went to other places. And they were left with this, you know, crumbling infrastructure, crumbling city.

And Rome was like, they're, hey guys, we're here. We'll fix your stuff. We'll fix your roads. We'll fix your stuff. And it didn't last long. I believe it lasted 17 years that they were under Roman rule. And then the volcano happened. But that, that we see that.

We also see that the Romans. we're also human. And we see that through like Gaius. One of the things that I think is so pronounced and really well done by the showrunners with regards to Gaius is that he is very aware of his sin and his shame when he is asking the father for something. When he's asking Jesus, right, but asking the father through Jesus, you can't even come into my house. Like I don't even want you to step foot into my house. I am not worthy to have the master of the universe step foot in my house, but I really want my son to be healed. So can you just say it?

Because then it'll happen. Like that's coming, it's from a place of faith, but it's also grounded in his shame, knowing he knows why he doesn't want. He didn't even want Simon to step foot in his house. That was out of necessity because Simon, you know, was roaming around the Roman hood. And he, you know, Gaius wanted to protect him and get him out of there. So he brought him to his home and his wife. gave him a cloak, but that wasn't part of the plan. And I think he probably would have felt, you know, we know when he was talking, when they were

fixing the cistern, and he was initially telling him, you know, the half truth about the servant boy, you can see the shame then. And I think that that is something that is in the modern Western Christian church missing. I know we've said on this network, I don't know if we've said it on this show, but make shame great again because people are just shameless now. there's, you know, everybody embraces their sins so much that being told that you're sinning is so offensive that, you know, you'll, you'll be stoned for it, metaphorically. Yeah.

So I think they do a good job with that. And then there is the, in terms of do a good job with that in terms of showing the humanity of the Romans. And I think they do the same thing with the Pharisees, right? We see Yusuf, Nicodemus, Gyrus, who is not really a Pharisee, but he's in that world. You see the humanity of kind of the bad guys in the story. And I know that the International Holocaust Remembrance Association or Alliance or whatever that thing is called would say that that's anti-Semitic to say that the Pharisees are the bad guys in the story of Jesus. Romans are the bad guys too.

Spoiler alert, humans are the bad guys because humans killed Jesus. But you also see... But to that point, the Bible does say it was the Pharisees who plotted the people. to kill Jesus. They were plotting to kill him. They were the ones who decided that Jesus needed to die. I think it's just really important to acknowledge that it was the Jewish elite. It was the keepers of the faith who decided that their own Messiah needed to be killed. Well, they didn't recognize him as their Messiah and they were behold into their own power. Also, Rome washed their hands of it. Pilot washed his hands of a matter, which, you know, was absolving himself of, of responsibility for it. But then there's Atticus. right and atticus is a really interesting character and i'm really looking forward to seeing where they go with him because he is um you know the cia of rome he's the you know we've talked about that a lot that he's kind of in this intelligence capacity deals in lies and half truce we saw that with jesse right oh i believe you know what else can i find out about your brother and his father and his friends

you know like he's he's operating under the veil of deception as you talked about last week he's everywhere like he just pops up literally everywhere yeah and um it's almost like you wonder if they're doing this like these spy people were everywhere and atticus is just the representation of them but it's just atticus he's like a secular version of god and like in the omniscience where it's like god is the all-knowing entity and he's kind of the all-knowing secular version of that right where he's lacking the spiritual part but he has the secular all-knowing part down yeah and we get a uh that like a it implies that um he is oh shoot what was i going to say it was about him and and quintus like the way he deals with and mentors the other roman so him and quintus seem to be kind of

peers, but Quintus has deference to Atticus because he's got more power, right? But on the level, they seem to be, you know, they have history with each other, uh, that you can get a sense of. And Atticus really does appear to be concerned about Rome. He looks, he is looking out for Rome's interests. And he's not hoodwinked very often, right? He seems atticus with the, the sense that we get of this character is that he is ahead of the game usually and can you know he's got the predictive analytics he's he's got the all the data sets and the predictive analytics to know what people are going to do before they're going to do it and jesus continually surprises him and the the followers of jesus continually surprise him and that leads him not to leave rome's interest behind because i don't

think he has in any way i don't think that he's undermined rome or done something that's not in the best interest of Rome, but he's also not in the mob mentality or the, there's like an arrogance of the, you know, Normy Romans and this, the regular Romans that aren't really involved in, you know, dealing with the Pharisees or following, you know, being assigned to follow Jesus and, you know, like Gaius was for a little bit. and there's there is there's a difference between atticus and kind of the normie roman soldier and

you know part of that is intelligence but it's also that i think he is being an honest broker he deals in deception but when it comes to what he's witnessing and trying to be honest about it he is kind of struggling and you see that in the last scene with him in pilot where pilot is like oh did you hear the ghost story and atticus doesn't laugh He's like, oh, that ghost story. And yeah, he is, he does appear to be spooked. Raising people from the dead is kind of a big deal, no matter what century we're in. And having that many witnesses to it happening, you know, we talked about when that happened in the, in the show, like how terrifying that would have been.

They have that black woman just scream out like a blood curdling scream. That would have been me. I would have been her, right? If you see like a, you know, the visual of the mummy like, like, like, like, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And so. Of the tomb, yeah.

Atticus, I think, is absolutely looking out for the interest of Rome. But he's also, I don't know if he's having a heart conversion. I can't tell at this point. But I think he's being honest in the way that he's like with himself, you know, he's being honest with himself in the way that he is consuming what he's seeing and processing what he's seeing and determining what his actions should be. And when he gives guidance to one of these, you know, Romans that he's mentoring, whether it's Quintus or Gaius or Pilot,

when he's giving them guidance, he's giving them what he believes to be wise counsel in the interest of Rome. And that's why it's hard for me to discern, is he having a heart conversion, or is he just a really good intelligence agent? And I don't know the answer to that yet, but I think it's very interesting.

Yeah, I would say he's probably my favorite character, and just because of his complexity, and I think you laid it out very well. he is an honest broker. He deals in deception. He is like the omnipent, you know, secular force. Like he's the all-knowing person. He's the most all-knowing aside from Jesus, right?

Where he seems to know everything that's happening in the world physically and can make sense of it all. He also doesn't crave power. We've learned that about him. Is that people are like, wait, why aren't you a general right now? He's like, I don't want to be a general. Like, forget that. He doesn't actually crave power other than just having the ability to, influence outcomes and keep thing you know keep everything within the guardrails um i think he views rome

as the the law and order of the like it's a very imperfect system we see him mocking roman culture from time of time even roman law we see him mocking the gods we see him kind of making light of a lot of these things and kind of like laughing about it and being like eh like he doesn't take that stuff too seriously like he's not like a ardent zealant zealot i don't think of like roman philosophy of Roman religion or anything like that. But I think he recognizes that this is the best way to maintain peace in order. Because without Rome, you're just going to have warring kingdoms and chaos. He seems to very much understand what the alternative is.

And so this system, this framework, while it's imperfect, it is the best way to maintain a general sense of peace. And he does seem interested in perpetuating that general peace, understanding that not everyone is, you know, prospering under it. But for the most part, it's preventing far worse cataclysms from occurring with just armies destroying armies and sacking towns. And so I do think his interest is overall benevolent. I do think overall he's a benevolent force in on the game board where he is trying to

keep things from spiraling out of control. He's not somebody who seems to be generally caught off guard. He always seems to be able to get a handle on what. he's seeing and when he's counseling these various leaders and saying, look, you should be thinking about it this way. Now you're thinking about it like a governor because you understand like the question isn't did he raise him from the dead? It's do the people think he raised him from the dead? And is he a threat because he did that? And he even says, he's like, I can't, I haven't decided yet if these miracles I've witnessed are threatening to roam or not or is this something that actually

might end up being good. So he's very open-minded. You can tell he's very open-minded. I think that the showrunners have created this really interesting character. There's so much potential with him. I love that they haven't assigned him anything yet where he hasn't just jumped on. Like, oh, yeah, I'm a follower of Jesus already. Like that it's so, there's so much ambiguity with him. And like they should keep that going, I think, as long as they can. Because I think his neutrality is what makes him so fascinating, where you don't really

know where his motives lie. Other than he does generally seem to be an agent of, I would say an agent at the peace. He's trying to keep the peace, generally speaking, understanding people are going to suffer and whatever, like that happens, but he doesn't want to see it all just fall off into the abyss. And I think that represents to a large extent, in my opinion, that represents the general Roman attitude as it relates to Jesus and his disciples up until the crucifixion, where they are manipulated, as we are clearly told in the story and in the Bible, they are manipulated to do this thing because as Caiaphas says, if we do it, like there's going to be terrible consequences for us.

So we got to make sure it's Rome that does it. We got to, we got to influence them and we got to manipulate them to make them do it. And then seeing later that it's Rome is the agent of retribution from God's perspective, because Rome is the thing that destroys Jerusalem. It's the thing that destroys the temple. It's the thing that that destroys the Sanhedron, right? And that's what Jesus promises is going to happen. Every stone here is going to be torn down. And we also see that it becomes the vehicle. Like even though Rome persecutes the early Christians, I've talked about that a few times this season,

that becomes this vicious, vicious animal that hunts down all these people and tries to wipe it from existence. It also then becomes the vehicle to spread Christianity throughout the whole known world. And it really is the reason that Christianity proliferates in the way it does. And it becomes as ubiquitous with Western civilization. as it is, it's because of the Roman Empire. Without the Roman Empire, it may not have reached the heights, certainly not as quickly as it did. Yeah, I think that's spot on. I want to be careful that we don't rewrite the history of Roman aggression, right? Like, there's certainly,

and when, you know, Jesus is having the crown of thorns put on when he's being lashed, it's Romans doing that. And, you know, I imagine they were probably gleeful about it because they do think that the majority of- They're laughing and mocking and having fun doing it. Right. The regular, you know, crucifixion in and of itself is a very gruesome way to die. There wasn't a ton of mercy in that culture. Remember Pilate's wife when we first meet her. She's had a dream. And then she's very, you know, just kind of put off by the fact that they're hanging a bunch of people outside her window.

And Pilots looking at it kind of with amusement, you know. So there's definitely, you know, but Atticus is an interesting character because he does seem to. bridge. And again, I'm wondering where they're going to go with him. I don't know. I don't know if he's going to have, you know, heart conversion. I wonder if he's going to be, you know, the soldier that try, if they're going to place him as the soldier that tries to give Jesus painkiller while he's hanging on the cross, you know, like, where are they going to place him in the historic events? I don't, I don't know the answer to that. But I think it's the one who, it's he the one who counsel's pilot to say, hey, like bring up Barabbas, bring out Jesus and give the audience, give the crowd. Yeah. Give the crowd a chance to like thinking, hey, they're going to let Jesus go, right? Yeah. And we know that his, his wife, Pilate's wife, because this is in scripture, says, don't have anything to do with that innocent man, that righteous man, depending on the version. Don't have anything to do with him, you know, because I've had a dream about this. And we've, you know, seen some of her dreams.

Seems like the first one we saw she was actually watching what was happening in the Garden of Kassimini. And so it's, you know, it's interesting where they're going with this. I agree with you. I think Atticus is one of the most interesting characters. And I like his, you know, he started out on this because he was hunting zealots. Yes. And he was following Z because he was certain that Z was going to commit an assassination. And then that's how he, you know, became associated with the story of Jesse.

And the, you know, and all of these things happen where you've seen that he is, again, being an honest broker with. himself, right? He's scheming. He's running ops. There's no question about it. He is, you know, but he, but he doesn't seem, he doesn't seem like he's going to be one of the Roman soldiers that's lashing Jesus and gleefully laughing about it, right? He's trying to keep the peace. The other thing I like about Atticus is that he is watching the people, not just his targets, but he's watching the response and the reaction. And we heard him tell pilot this in the last episode doesn't actually matter if it's true. It matters if they believe that it's true. No, I think it matters very much that it's true as a follower of Jesus. But the point is well taken

that mob mentality is an impossible thing to control once it, you know, we saw this in COVID with the kind of mass psychosis that happened around COVID. And all of a sudden, your neighbors were informing on you. And, you know, little old ladies calling your name. This is personal stories telling personal stories Little old ladies calling you despicable names in the grocery store for you know peaceful non-compliance and the people can turn on a dime and if the people have a belief this isn't why it's important to watch what is going on in the news even though the news is fake right because the news for the regular normie American is going to direct their outrage. And once you get collective outrage directed towards a target, it's very hard to pull that back. And damn near impossible for any authority to be able to pull that back. And I think that Atticus knows that. And I think that that's what he is trying to protect against. And that's what he's trying to counsel first Quintus, then Gaias and pilot about is that you need to be watching. Oh, he's from Nazareth. Nothing interesting comes from Nazareth. Well, He has thousands of followers that are following him everywhere that he goes and hanging on his every word. You really should be paying attention to this.

Oh, no, you know, we're Rome. We can smack it down in a minute if we want to. We sent out Gaius to smack down the camp. And he didn't do that because his heart has been converted. Atticus seems to realize that there is something much greater going on. And he's seen things he can't explain. He's watched people be raised from the dead now. So, you know, I hope he has a heart conversion.

but I also feel like it will be authentic and appropriate for him not to, but to have compassion in the end. Yeah, I wonder if we'll see that happen, though, after the crucifixion, like after the resurrection. Like, I wonder if we'll see him do that. Like he will be a neutral, as you said, an honest broker throughout the whole thing, trying to counsel a situation to move away from killing Jesus and prevent it from happening. And then when it does happen, maybe he'll be like lamenting it and be like,

this is terrible. I can't believe this happened. And then of course there'll be societal consequences for it happening. And then witness the resurrection and be like, okay, this is like Rome no longer matters. Like maybe we'll see that happen. But I do think that, and you're right. And there is a Roman soldier right after Jesus's death who says truly this was the son of God. They might be setting him up to be that guy. That could be. That's very true. That would be, see, that would be a great payoff. because I think it would be authentic. I think it would be a really authentic moment. That's what's so great about this character in this show is it could go either way.

Like he could end up following Jesus. He could end up not following Jesus, but either way it's going to be authentic because I think they've done a really good job of showing that his incentives are tied to Rome. He is acting on behalf of Rome, but intrigued and curious by what he sees. He could end up being the guy who hunts down these people to kill them and like the disciples. and drag them back to the Coliseum, right, to be eaten by lions. Like, that could end up being Atticus, right? You just don't know because maybe he views this whole thing as terrible in the end.

He's like, it's actually, I can't have to decide yet. This is good or bad. Oh, wait, this is bad. Like, we need to snuff this out. So you're right. Like, we don't know. And you're right. I'm not trying to rewrite the history of when it, as it relates to Rome.

I think the show has done a really, really good job. I think of accurately and honestly portraying all this stuff because it's very clear that Rome is an oppressive force. It's very clear that Rome is an empire. It's very clear that the Romans don't care about the Jews. It's very clear that they have a, like, they have a total lack of morality as it relates to Jewish morale, like the morality that's taught in the Torah, the morality that we see the chosen people, the Hebrews represent, the morality of Abraham, the morality that is taught to his children, right? His sons, that is lost, that is not found in the Hellenic Roman culture. And we see that express in moments where, you know, Gaius kneels, like when Matthew starts talking back to Quintus because he's autistic and Gaius kneels because he's like, he's going to cut off both of our heads. Not only would killing Matthew in that private office be nothing, but killing one of his top centurions would be nothing.

He wouldn't get any trouble for that. And this total indifference, and we see this from Atticus as well towards the loss of life and death, was probably absolutely just normal. in Roman society. We see people being crucified all over the place in the background, right? And Pollitt kind of sitting there and daydreaming as he's like watching it, right? And there is a, he does say like,

I hate crucifixion because I hate listening to them scream. Like he hates the sounds and the noises and like the atmosphere. Does he, is it because he's empathizing with them? Is it just because it makes him uncomfortable? Who knows? But again, like I just think that there is a very neutral presentation of the good, the bad, and the ugly

of all of it being shown. And so I think that that, and then you juxtaposed that to when you're raised in the evangelical, in the Protestant evangelical world, and everything is Rome. It's like, it was the Romans who did this. The Romans are bad. The Roman, like that is what's

pumped into your head. And I wasn't even raised in a Zionist community. I was raised in a Anglican, you know, Episcopalian church where Zionism wasn't even discussed. Israel wasn't even discussed. And it was still just commonly understood that Rome was the one who killed Jesus. So the fact that they challenged that convention in a very, very effective way, I thought was very well done.

And it's similar like how, you know, people can blame Eve for eating the fruit, right? I think the reality is, is that all of us would have eaten the fruit. That's kind of like the, you know, who killed Jesus? I really believe the point of that story and it's so, you know, kind of convoluted between the two different facts. You've got the, you've got the Pharisees, and then you've got Herod, and they hate each other. And then you've got Rome. And they're all involved. And there's a plausible deniability Spider-Man meme that has kind of existed throughout history in terms of, well, it was, you know, it was all of us.

And the reality is that they, like, even. Even Peter denied Jesus three times that morning, right? Which Jesus, you know, foretold he was going to do. Like there is there is this realizing who you are in the context of who God is and that your door to bridge that gap is the blood of Jesus Christ is true for the Jew is true for the Roman is true for the Gentile is true for Herod and whatever he was. You know, it's true for the Ashkenazis and it's true for the Ethiopians. It's, Jesus is the great equalizer. Nobody comes to the father except through me. You don't have a separate path because you wear a different outfit.

And, and that's, I think, one of the things that the show has treated really well. I think that they have been respectful of that very divisive question that is, you know, creating a lot of chaos and problems in our society today. And I think that they've traded it really well. Yeah, there's a there's a conversation about power and the corruption that it has in the soul that I think is kind of underlying all this. Atticus being a great example of, you know, is the reason that he just that he rejects like elevation that he rejects general like being a general? Is it because he understands that power corrupts and he doesn't want to be corrupted like maybe? Is that, you know, is that is that shown in the way that he influences informs councils these various leaders? You look at Pilot, who isn't the paragon of benevolence, of course, but he also doesn't seem to be inherently malicious.

He certainly has like some behavior that we see in all the Romans where they are just indifferent to suffering in a large way, in a way that just is not aligned with modern Western culture, post-Christian, post-Christ Western culture. But you do see that Pilots very young. And so like maybe the power hasn't corrupted him yet. And maybe Atticus is trying to pull him away from that and say, hey, make sure you're being a good leader. Like, yeah, the power is going to go to your head a little bit, but pull him back from that. You see Quintus, who's clearly much older than Pilot. He does get drunk off power. We do see that leads to the murder of Rama because he's threatened that he feels he's going to lose the power.

We see in the Sanhedron. We see Caiathus, who's, I think, represented as the oldest. He looks like the oldest, like the cryptkeeper, the oldest of anyone in the show. So he is absolutely just consumed by power, it would seem. But then you also have Nicodemus, who is clearly probably the other eldest character shown, who is clearly benevolent and rejects like that the corruption of the soul there. So him and Caiaphas have a really nice, I think, dichotomy. There's a nice polarity between him and Caius.

And then seeing how the younger members of the Sanhedron operate. I mean, you got the guys on the older side who all seem to be consumed by it or well on their way. And then you have Yusuf, who is probably the youngest of all of them. He is very, very turned off by it. And then Shmuel, who clearly is older than Yusuf, even he, like comes face to face with this, with the Sanhedron. Like, it's like he walks into the inner sanctum and he's seeing like the big massive like mother, like the queen that's laying all the eggs of evil. and he's like oh my gosh this thing is awful but it doesn't turn him away he ends up like he goes searching for something else when he goes to lazarus's house and then he wintzes at that because

i think his ego pulls him back to that that queen laying the eggs and he's like this is what i know and this is what i'm going back to like that and that the queen laying the eggs of course is the law that you're talking about them worshipping they're worshipping the law they're not worshipping god and this all comes back to judas because judas of course is i think the one of the most important characters that they're setting up here at the end. And I love the way, I've said it before, how they don't present him as inherently evil. They do present, I think Caiaphas is evil. They do present some of the Pharisees as pretty evil.

They do present some other characters as just like wicked. Like these are some wicked. Quintas is wicked, but he's also likable, right? Yeah, he's likable, he's wicked. He has moments where he's kind of like, oh, like that was a nice thing. I like you. Don't make me kill you. Yeah. But he is wicked. He does have like a wicked soul and that ends up, you know, and then there's the fact that he kills a Jewish woman. It's very clear that they don't respect the Jews at all. But he kills a Jewish woman and that's his undoing. Now, if he had done that behind closed doors, no problem. He did it out in the open and that could have led to a revolt. And that's why it's the party of false decorum. You violated the decorum. That's why you're now suffering. Then we get to Judas. And Judas is, again, he has, he is praying to the same queen laying the egg. He's praying to the. He's praying to the.

the law as opposed to God. And because of that, he doesn't have ego death. He doesn't have the dark night of the soul. He doesn't have any of the things that the other guys have gone through. Jesus, by the way, doesn't seem to be going out of his way to. Yeah. We was talking about that last week. He's like, Jesus is like, yeah, he doesn't take that time.

He doesn't give him that guidance. He, you know, kind of knows. He appears to know who he is. Yep, which is why I think he goes back. But at the same time, I think I like the way they present Judas because he is, I think, presented as the youngest character. He's presented, him and Matthew, I think, are probably presented as the two youngest of the disciples.

He does seem precocious. He does seem earnest. He does seem like he wants to be a part of something special. He wants to be the good guy. He thinks Jesus is actually who he says he is. But because of his ego, because he doesn't have the wisdom of grief, he doesn't have the ego death, he doesn't have

the humility, he doesn't have any of those things. He ends up making the wrong choice in the wrong moment. And because of that choice he's going to make that is going to that's the critical choice though that ends up setting everything up that needs to happen that god needs to happen in order to make this story right i mean the climax only happens because judas betrays jesus um judas who's not i would say he's not inherently evil but he does engage in wicked behavior and that wicked behavior leads

to jesus being crucified and then later it leads to judas killing himself out of shame um because he does have the shame versus if it was yeah kaiaphas isn't going to kill himself out of shame because he's evil he has no shame he's shameless yeah yeah no i think i think that's spot on and um you know kind of a good place to land it because we're going to get into season five season five will open up with palm sunday with jesus writing um into jerusalem the the the week before his uh his death and resurrection. Spoiler alert. I mean, it's been written for thousands of years, guys. Yeah, yeah. But I do, I do, I agree with you on Judas and kind of the way that they've portrayed him because it's very human. And I think with what we've experienced, you know,

the telling of Jesus's experience with faith and, you know, where where people have that faith versus where they should believe because they've seen a bunch. And they've, they've had the, you know, he says to, I think to Thomas, you know, you saw and believe, blessed are those who didn't, you know, who have believed without seeing. Like there's a greater level of, the faith is what matters. The faith is the central question.

And seeing what we're seeing throughout, right whether it's gaius's faith or the bleeding woman's faith or um gyrus's faith right those things are so moving to jesus in this show that it's rare right like what i'm getting at is that that level of faith is rare and therefore i think that judas would have been more indicative of the norm versus the exception he he is the He is the rule versus the exception to the rule. The disciples, the rest of them are the exceptions. And that level of faith is very, very rare. And that's what we aspire to.

And we'll have to leave it there because you have to go to do another show. Yeah. And, you know, any of us are capable of being Judas in the wrong moment, right? In the right moment, to me, how you look at it. But it's like in the specific moment, in a critical moment, we're all capable of being Judas, which is to the point, who killed Jesus. We all killed Jesus because we're all capable of being Judas if we deviate from the path and we worship the, you know, we worship the thing as opposed to God, whether that thing is the law

or the thing is, you know, a golden cap. Golden cast, like whatever it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like the party of false decorum, whatever it is. That's what leads you to become Judas and do this terrible wicked thing, even if you yourself are not generally an evil. wicked person. And then you would regret it for the rest of your life. So, yeah, we'll leave it there. Well, said. All right, everybody. Well, please hit the like button for us. Help us out quite a bit, wherever you're watching. Remember to, you know, head over to our sponsors, badlandsmedia.

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