Bandsplain - 24 Question Party People: Ben Gibbard of Death Cab for Cutie

Episode Date: September 5, 2023

On this week’s show, Ben Gibbard comes on to chat with Yasi about life, death, and the truth. Other big topics include: Daryl Hall—one of the greatest vocal ad-libbers of all time? Can a live performance make you want to flip a car over? What kind of protein powder are we all using? All this and more is revealed on another riveting episode of '24 Question Party People.' Host: Yasi SalekGuest: Ben GibbardProducer: Jesse Miller-GordonAssociate Producer: Chris SuttonAdditional Production Supervision: Justin SaylesTheme Song: Hether Fortune Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Erica Ramirez, founder of Ili, and hosts of What About Your Friends? A podcast dedicated to the many lives of friendship and how it's portrayed in pop culture. Every Wednesday on the ringer dish feed, I talk to my best friend Stephen Othello and your favorites from within the ringer and beyond about friendships on TV and movies, pop culture and our real lives. So join me every Wednesday on the ringer dish feed where we try to answer the question TLCS back in the day, what about your friends? 24 question party people. Hello and welcome to 24 question party people. I am your host, Yossi Salek. This is a show where I invite an interesting person on for a little talk. I ask the same 23 questions every time, more or less, plus one wild card. The guess is allowed to skip one question. Sometimes the questions do change a little. Sometimes they change a lot. If you don't like it, I don't know, babe, have you tried meditating or something? Listen, I don't have one of these long, heartfelt, you know, plumbing the depths of my psyche and soul style intros for you today. I'm sorry.

Or I'm happy for you because some of you have probably been saying there. I mean, like, damn, this bitch is going the fuck through it. Like, what is up with her? But yeah, I don't have that for you today. I've spent the last week and also this beautiful holiday. weekend, microdosing mushrooms, and just spinning up some gorgeous little theories in my endless Google Doc on redacted band for my other show bands playing. So all the space in my beautiful mind normally allotted for philosophizing and like having Kylie Jenner-esque realizations

has been otherwise occupied on the day that my mentality decides to catch up with my biology. Bonge round, babe. All I do want to say is that when I was living in San Francisco at 21 years old, walking through the lower hate every day, cold, I was always cold, probably wearing very low-wasted diesel jeans and like, I don't know, fingerless gloves, maybe one of those beanies with a bill, like a brim, do you know what I'm talking about? Listen, it was fucking 2003, Okay. Listening to the district sleeps alone tonight on my giant first-gen brick of an iPod over and over, and then later also all of transatlanticism, just on a loop, on repeat, crying, walking up and down Market Street.

There is a tear in the fabric crying on my way to my waitressing job. I never thought that one day in the future tips, meaning with the brim of the lady, that the architect of this music would look at me from across the computer screen and ask me, so do you lift, bro? It's not exactly what he asked me, but it was basically that. Life is a highway, you guys. It is a highway. Smeared black ink, indeed, babe. So that's really all I wanted to say. Oh, and also for all of the people that have been asking me, you'd be surprised how many people actually did ask me about the prize air fryer that I secured, you know, after you listened to the last episode, I secured this after I listened to the voice in my head that told me to go sit outside

home goods for 30 minutes until it opened. That air friar is the Breville Smart Air Oven. It dehydrates shit, dude. It's sick. You should get yourself on. Those are the only two things I wanted to tell you. I hope you enjoy my talk with Ben Gibberg. 24-war-1-1-2. Benjamin Gibbard of pinwheel fame. Absolutely. Absolutely. How's it going?

So good. How are you? Okay, I should, people probably know actually more of death cab for cutie on postal service, fame. Or maybe they're like, oh my God, I know him because he was on Bandsblane. That's, I get a lot of people. People have been stopped me on the street and they're like, are you that gentleman from Bandsblane? Are you that guy that went on the teenage fan club episode of Bandsplaine?

Huge fan of your work. on the podcast episode. Welcome to the show. Everything going good. Everything's great. I just got back from 10 days in L.A. rehearsing for this tour that we're going to do. Gorge.

Yeah, I've heard about this tour. And I hung out with Jenny a bunch, bunch, obviously. Yeah. Jenny Lewis, former also guest of this here pod, 24-question, private people. Well, and I listened to her episode to prepare for this. Oh, how did you feel?

Do you feel scared? Do you feel confident? Do you feel at peace? I feel more prepared having listened to an episode of this. Right. Because if I would have come in cold, I think I would have maybe been caught a little off guard, which maybe would have been good. I can still catch you off guard, babe. Don't threaten me with a good time.

All right. Okay. Go for it. Before we get started, I must mention that Death Cab for Cutie did release their 10th studio album, Asphalt Meadows, last September. And I know that really well because I also just finished. the Death Cup for a cutie episode of Bandsplay, which comes out on Thursday. And I'll tell you what, I was a little bit laughing because I really love this album. That's not why I was laughing, but it's extremely good. I must tell you, a Panini album, which hit or miss Panini album, but yours very good.

Roman Candles, weird, gorge, Rand McNally, goodbye, crying, like really good. And then I was remembering that when we had the Teenage Fan Club episode, and I was telling you my most hated theory that rock music is for young people, and then when people get older, they don't make as good of albums. And you're like, yeah, no, I'm sure you, but. And you know what? I apologize to you, sir, because yes, you have proven to be an exception. This is a very good album. Well, I appreciate you saying that.

We're really proud of it. But I do think that in most cases, that theory holds like 90% of the time. And I think that the longer a band is around the less times they're going to come out with a record that's going to blow you away. Totally. It's just, it's just showbiz, baby, you know? Yeah. It's just, it's just, you know, you get taken for granted, I don't know. I, you know, I think you stray further from God's light, but whatever, we can agree to disagree.

Okay, let's start with the questions. You don't have all day, Benjamin Gibbard. You have stuff to do. Number one, what is your sign? I'm a Leo. Yeah, you are. Okay, here are some of the known traits of Leo's. Compassion, big-heartedness, consciousness, drive, natural leadership.

Leo's love to lead, perform, talk, be admired, and receive the praise and respect of others. Do you relate to any of these traits? Yeah, that's pretty much it. I mean, it's funny because I don't believe in astrology, but then there are these kind of moments where, you know, the sign kind of does encapsulate a lot of what you're about. And then you go like, okay, well, I'm not a believer, but that's a pretty wild coincidence, you know. A wild coincidence. Listen, I'm not here to convert anyone to my philosophy and religion of astrology, but I do tend to find it to be pretty on point.

Would you say that you also like to be the boss in any relationship or group dynamic? I will say that I... I will say that I'm not a joiner. You're not a group project type guy. No, I'm not a joiner. You know, like I like to make things and I guess to, yes, to answer the question in the affirmative. Yes, I like to lead things. But I've always just like to do my own thing.

I've never kind of been like, oh, what's going on with those people over? there. Let me go over and join what they're doing. I was like, I see what they're doing and I want to do my own thing. Right. Totally. Well, consummate Leo. Okay, number two. What did you eat today, Ben Gibbard? Let's see. I had some toast with almond butter for breakfast, and then I went for a run, and I came back and had a protein shake with some spinach in it. What kind of protein powder are we fucking with them? Give me the details. Like a brand name? Yeah. Well, well, we'll, again, What is it? Is it pea protein? Is it weigh? Is it goat? Like what are we working with? I think it's like a pea protein, but I'm not vegan, but I was going to say it's giving

vegan, I must tell you, but it's okay, you're not vegan. Yeah, I'm not vegan, no. But I just, you know, I, yeah, so it's like a pea protein. It's got a little bit of vanilla kind of sweetness to it. Yeah, because I don't like that protein powder that just tastes like grass. You know, I don't want that shit. Sure. So, you know, sort of throw a little bit of Udo's oil in there, throw some spinach in there, a little bit of pineapple to kind of give a little zing, frozen pineapple. Yes, sure. Of course, you need that texture. You know that raw spinach doesn't really have a lot of bioavailable nutrients. I hate to be the bearer of bad news. Raw spinach doesn't? No, apparently the nutrients and spinach are more bioavailable when you cook them.

Okay. I'm sure it doesn't hurt. Yeah, right. So it's like something like all the goodness like gets unlocked when you heat it. Is that kind of what you're saying? Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that is kind of what I'm saying. That seems like that's a rare, a rare kind of thing in the plant world. It's more common than you think. There's like apparently a lot of different rules of bioavailability with different foods depending on raw or cooked. And a lot of them become more bioavable when you cook them. Are you like, are you kind of leading me into like, are you mentally ill? Are you leading me into your like raw paleo diet right now? Is that what you're done?

No, but I'm not around a raw paleo day, but not, I'm not, I am a little crazy about my approach to eating. But this is not about me. Ben Gibbard, in between the time of the almond toast and the protein shake, what is this, like six hours? Because you went on like a 28 mile run, right? No, I just went out for like an, I went out for an easy hour and a half. Okay, just a quick. How many miles are recovering in an hour and a half? Like nine on trail.

So, yeah. Okay. I have a new theory that I've developed that it seems to me that everyone I know once they hit like, I want to say like late 30s is when it kind of starts. I'll develop a sort of like all consuming hobby. Do you know what I mean? And like some people it's like, oh, I distance bike now. It's all I do. And some people it's like I build model trains and I'm super into it and I spend most of my free time.

and yours is distance running. Yeah, and my understanding is that you, like, you lift, right? You're like a big, that's your thing, right? You're like, have you been lurking? Oh, no, because I talked to Jenny Lewis about it. You talked to Jenny about it. You guys were talking about it. And Jenny was like, Jenny was like, Yasi's ripped.

That's what Jenny said. I am right. Yeah, I would imagine you would be ripped from lift all that way. Not like in like a disgusting way, but I am in really good shape. I only started in December. It's really crazy how fast you can transform your like health and fitness. I didn't realize. What was the impetus for you being like, fuck it, I'm going to start lifting heavy things?

One million percent vanity because I read that it is extremely anti-aging, especially for women. And I'm super interested in things that are anti-aging. So that was probably like 99% of it. And also I had a physical last year where my doctor was like, you have some like heart whatever. You know what I mean? Like some like questionable. And I was like, what? I'm so healthy.

And she was like, it's genetic. She was like, you need to like up your heart rate. multiple times a week or whatever. And I think before that, I was just doing some, like, like, who cares, like, stair climber shit or whatever. And then yoga, which I don't think was, like, getting the job done. Like, you go to the gym and, like, watch something on your phone and, like, just kind of, like, look at Twitter and just, like, climb the stair climb around.

I'm like, oh, I'm getting a lot done here. So 99% vanity, 1% I don't want to die. Yeah, that sounds about right. Yeah. And I love it. It's so fun. It's so, I didn't think it was going to be fun. I'm so fun.

I kind of, I think there's something to that theory. And I think there's, um, there's, There's like a little like a little kind of quip that I heard somebody say one time that maybe maybe we talked about in the last podcast. So forgive me if we did. But it's like it's something like you spend your 20s thinking everybody's talking about you. Your 30s wondering why no one is talking about you and your 40s realizing no one was ever talking about you. And I think like one cares. And I think that maybe some there's something about getting into your 40s where if you're like a relatively healthy,

non-narcissistic person, you kind of go like, you know what, I'm going to indulge that nerdy thing that I've always wanted to do, and I don't give a fuck if somebody thinks it's not cool. Yeah, like wild abandon with like your truest self

and like, I don't give a shit anymore. I'm too tired to go to the bar. I probably don't drink anymore, if we're being honest, most people. And let's do model trains. And also, and also like I find that I'm a lot less judgmental or I'm not judgmental at all about people's nerdy obsessions. I'm the opposite. I'm so into it. It brings me joy when I see it. Yeah, me too. Yeah,

but it's like there's a time where I do like, you know, that's, what you're doing is super nerdy. Now, I'll be over here collecting, you know, like obscure jazz records. Thank you very much. Or whatever, you know, like that's cool. Yeah, that's a cool thing because I do it. Okay, moving on. Number three, did you listen to music today? And if so, what? Was it? I did. I woke up this morning, and I put, I was put on a record first thing when I get up. One of your rare jazz records, that in your collection?

Not so much, not so much a rare one, but I did put on a Mal Waldron record called Mal 2. It's like a jazz musician, pianist. And I've gotten super into these, like, I'm going to read some these really kind of clean, very, very nice pressings of older jazz records. And I'm turning into that guy. Like, I'm turning into that middle-aged man who's like, you know, listen to indie rock still, but really is starting to like... Sure.

Kind of move into like areas of my music listening at home that are not necessarily you're going to impress anybody, you know. I honestly feel that's more dignified. I must say, like, what are you as a 42-year-old man doing listening to the national? Do you know what I mean? Like, let's move on. Yeah, I mean, everybody should be, of course, listening to to the newest death camp for QDICU record.

Asphalt Meadows out now on DSPs at your local record store. But aside from that, yeah, you know, you move on, you know, listen to some other stuff, you know. Are you trying to, like, curate a vibe for yourself every morning? Like, do you intentionally pick a record that you're like, I'm kind of feeling this way. Let me, like, enhance that with this record? My usual morning routine is to get up, make coffee, and read for a bit.

And so it tends to be, I need to put something on that doesn't have words because I'll get distracted. So that could be anything like ambient music, like Stars of the Lid or something like that. FX twin. Yeah, exactly. Well, yeah, if it was ambient records, yeah, they're fucking great. But more so since the pandemic, I started really listening. I finally kind of entered my jazz phase.

I think that's probably because I was just really craving hearing people play music in a room. Right, right. Like the feeling of the live togetherness. Yeah, and that just kind of carried over into the, you know, kind of like back to normal kind of world. It does feel very sophisticated, I must say. But it's kind of like a fun. The thing I've enjoyed about is it's fun to kind of follow these like threads

through that music where it's like you become a fan of one player and you go, oh, you pick up a record like, oh, shit, it's Coltrane and this guy and that guy. Oh, I like that guy. And oh, he plays on this record too. And it becomes this kind of interesting kind of thread to follow through that music, which is something that's unique to jazz. You don't listen to indie rock records being like, oh shit, like, you know, so-and-so's on that record,

and they played on that record in that record. There's a lot less of that. There's a lot less kind of collaboration. I'm like, Aaron wants his name, Folklore. I did a gorgeous album, followed him right over, learned about the national. But I bet you a lot of Swifties did that. I'm happy for you.

Jazz is not for me personally, but I understand that it's good. You know, there's those things where you're like, no, I have no quibble. I wouldn't ever say to anyone that this is not good. It's just not for me. Yeah, and that's also, I think that's part of what we were discussing earlier. It's about getting older, getting in your 40s, and like living and letting live. It's like, I don't need to convince you that this weird shit that I like is cool or good. I'm just going to be in my corner listening to Pharaoh Sanders, and you can be in your corner listening to the national and we can be friends. It's not a big deal. I'm not listening to the national. Why would you say that's

not what's happening over? I mean, as you is just the proverbial you. It doesn't have to be you actually, you know. Right, right, right, right. Me mostly Afghan wigs or, um, depending on my mood, a little archers of loaf. Okay. So you're talking, we're talking like gentlemen. We're talking that area, that's, that's, yeah, that's a top, top five right. It's a dark vibe, but sometimes it's a fun. Yeah, so good. It's so good. Why is it so good? Fountain and Fairfax, bitch, bye. Um, when you're reading the book in the morning, where was, where is the cellular telephone? Has it, has it come into your presence yet? Have, have, have your eyes, grazed the cellular telephone between waking and the book.

I tried to go wake coffee book record, read for a period of time that seems appropriate, and then put the book down and then go, all right, fuck, what's in this little thing? What horrors exist in this little box? What horrors away? What anxiety awaits me here? I think that's the move. So you don't take the phone into the bedroom. Well, the phone is sleeping next to me, but it's not like a, it's not.

not like I wake up and scroll Instagram kind of vibe. Wow, Herculean discipline. I don't even take it in there because I just don't trust myself to not like first thing grab it. Really? Yeah, I just leave it outside. Okay, fair enough. Hopefully there's no emergency because I should get a landline. Okay, number four, what is the first song that made a meaningful impact on you as a child? I'm cheating because I might know this already, but let's just have you, let's just have you say it. Okay. Meaningful as a child. I feel like there's a way to cheat this question to make one sound cooler, you know? Right, but we already said we're not doing that anymore.

No, no. If I was trying to be cool, I would tell you it was like this cassette with like the first bad brains record and like... As a child, how old were you when you got the first bad? Like 13. That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying that. I'm saying like if I wanted to like try to skew this to like, you know, that I've always had impeccable cool taste of music, I would say that. But I'm not saying that.

And what I'm saying instead, it would 100% be out of touch by HoloNotes. That record, Big Bam Boom. I think I was like eight when that came out. And that just like made a huge impact on me. I thought it was like the best song I'd ever heard. Yeah. Holland Oates. Interesting.

Yeah. I can see there's like some music that specifically, I feel like appeals to the sensibilities of children. Holland Oats totally make sense. Red hot chili peppers, I believe also very much appeals to the sense, you know, children that has that vibe that they get really into it. because it's just fun. I mean, I think we've, I know what you're trying to do right now, and we're not going to go there.

I'm trying to get you to talk about red hot chili peppers. Like I do every person on this podcast. No, I feel like that's simply a fact that children like red hot chili peppers because it's like buoyant and bouncy and bum, bum, it's just fun for them to listen to. Yeah, and the lyrics are like, you know, ring ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding. So yeah, kids kind of kids, that appeals to kids. It's actually ding, ding ding ding ding ding ding dong, ding dong, if we're going to be accurate. about it. That's what it is. Do you think that line existed on a lyric sheet?

Was that like on a music stand in front of a microphone and Rick Rubin's house or something? A hundred percent. Okay. And do you think maybe Rick Rubin would like call it into the control room and was like, Can you dang? What if you can, here? What about a dang and sort of a ding? I think we swap the ding and the dang, we might get somewhere.

I think we'll never know what magic went behind making ding, dang, dong, dong, ding, ding, ding, dong, ding, dang. But it's in the canon of genius music, regardless. Yeah, some, some are saying that. Many have said this. Many have said that. So we'll just leave it at that. We'll move on. In my deep research of your background, I did read that your parents didn't let you listen to thriller. Yeah, they didn't let me listen. Yeah, they didn't want me to listen to thriller. Now, at the same time, my dad would be blasting highway to hell in the house. So like, I mean, you know, like, as far as like music that kids, that maybe has some messaging that may be in Catholic household probably, you know, not the best.

I think that like that highway to hell and like, you know, like the double and triple entendres of every ACDC song probably. Literally. Thriller is basically like monster mash. It's like so tame. Yeah. And I don't remember exactly what, what my. What their beef was with it.

What their beef was. I mean, maybe like maybe they thought that Billy Jean was like too adult of a theme for like a six or seven year old. It was pretty. seven, eight-year-old? Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense.

Okay. Number five, what is the first album that you bought with your own money or shoplifted with your own two hands? You don't strike me as a shoplifter. No, I was always afraid. I always, like, I had friends who I was with who were always shoplifting, but I was the kid who was like, I don't know if we should do this, guys. And because I was that guy, I 100% would have gotten caught if I had shoplifting.

Yeah, you can have that energy on your shoplifting. You have to be bold. You have to be fearless. Yeah, I mean, my parents tell a story about when I was like five and they're like down in the living and reading and I just came to the top of the stairs and said, no reason to come up here. Nothing to see here. And they just kind of put their reading material down like, what the fuck's going on upstairs now? Like that's just like I'm, I was really bad at being bad. I just wasn't good at it.

Terrible criminal, yeah. I wasn't a good criminal. I couldn't have been a good criminal. So no, didn't shop list it, but it was big bamboo by hollowing oats. That was like the save up my allowance, you know, whatever. whatever it was, I don't know, a dollar a week who can't, who fucking knows in the 80s. And like, yeah, I got that record. It was like, oh, it's the best.

Do you feel like in some way, somehow that music made its way into Death Cab for a cutie? Holo notes? Yeah. Not really. But maybe somewhere here in your mind, the butterfly I found. I'm trying to kind of like kind of going through our catalog and trying to determine if there's any overt Holo note influence. I mean, you guys use some horns.

Well, yeah, once, I think, for like 15 seconds. Although I will say that I do think that Daryl Hall might be one of the greatest vocal ad livers of all time. In so many Hall-Node songs, he gets to like an outro chorus with this repeating the chorus over and over again. And that shit will go for like a minute, minute and a half, and he's just throwing adlibs at it. And it's just incredible.

He's amazing. And I saw them for the first time ever just this past summer. and they were great. Did you ever see the television program live from Daryl's house? I have seen that, and we were invited a few times and we weren't able to make it work. No, Ben Gibbred, this would have been such a beautiful full-circle moment. But it was one of those things where it was like,

we're in another state, and we can't get to Daryl's house. The first time I saw it was, because I don't remember when it was on, this was over 10 years ago, and it was on like, I must have been flipping through actual television. So, and I was really high. And I was like, what the fuck is this? This is insane. And it was the episode with Cilo.

So it was like especially insane. And it's just, it might have been early on. So it was like giving cable access vibes. And it's just Darrell Hall. It is like weird cabin hosting Cilo. They're just having a little meal together, chit chatting. And then they do a performance of, what was that big Cilo song? Was it the Fuck You song?

Yeah, yeah. Yes, exactly. And I was like, I was going to say I feel like I'm on drugs, and but I was on drugs, but like I felt like I was like on extra other drugs because I was just like, what am I watching? I was so bad. Yeah, I mean, it's a pretty wild concept, right? Just to be like, yeah, I'm just going to bring a person into my house

and then we're going to play one of my songs probably or? Yeah, and one of your one. And it's going to be great. And it was like a strange cabin. I don't know. Good for Dar Hall. He was branched out and did his own thing. Okay.

Number six, did anyone in your childhood ever tell you, you're never going to make it Ben Gibbard or something like that, like they do in the movies? And if so, who wasn't? What did you say back? I don't think anybody ever said that to me because... Because you went and became like an astronomical engineer or whatever. People don't know.

No, it's just like, but like coming up in like punk and indie circles, it's like the idea of making it was so preposterous. Right. That like there was never, like, you know, from the. jump, you know, the goal was like, maybe we can make enough money on tour that we can afford to not work while we're on tour. Like, we won't, we won't come, we'll come back and have apartments, you know. Right. That was kind of like, that was like, that was like the top of the mountain, you know. Right. So the idea of like, I mean, I think all of us kind of scoffed at the idea of like making it.

it was like a silly concept to be like, or even worse to like want to be famous, you know, to be like, I'm going to be super famous. You're like, no, you're embarrassing yourself. Stop it. You weren't allowed to do that until the shins did the McDonald's commercial.

And then it was fair game. And that was fair game. Or you guys, either one in the time. Either one. Right. Yeah. We say it's cool now.

It's okay to sell out now. We get it. And it's pretty great. So everybody go for it. It's super fun. It really was the defining characteristic of the 2000s, I must say, where I remember was just like, you know what, I don't care. But also, like, it makes you realize, like, how ridiculous kind of some of the rules were beforehand. So stupid.

Yeah. It's so stupid. Where you're like, what do you want these people to do to starve to death? The answer is, yes, we want you to starve to death. We want you to be our secret. And we, you know, because, you know, I define my existence by the things that I like and I like your music. And if more people like it, more people like it. I'm less unique if more people like Nirvana, you know.

Totally. So, yeah, no, never was never, I don't, I mean, but maybe when we do make our biopic, you know, because that's, you know, that's a movie people need to see, right? For white collegiate dudes kind of, you know, slogging it out and then making it. Yeah, I love it. Maybe we'll manufacture or something like that, if a fake origin story of being told that we never made it. Yeah, why not? Like have some, like, you know, teacher or,

professor or somebody. Yeah, because like athletes do that all the time. Like Michael Jordan was famous for that. You need a inciting incident to light the fire within your belly. Exactly. Okay, number seven, Ben Gibbard, when was the last time you lied? Hmm. I know I have lied. Like ever. Recently. I often find myself lying about how long I waited for something. So let's say like the flight's delayed, right? And you're like, you're like, you get to the airport and it's like, you know,

the flights leave at 830 and it says now we're leaving at 845. You're like, okay. And then it's not 845. It's like somewhere later than 845. But maybe let's say in actuality it was like a 35 minute delay. And then I'm recounting my travel story. And I was like, we were fucking delayed for like an hour and 20 minutes. It was wild.

What is the psychology behind this? Are you a bit of a martyr? I don't know if I'm a martyr. There's something I have to check in myself often, which is like I don't do well when things don't function properly. I want things to function properly. I want planes to take off on time, and I want like people to say they're going to be.

somewhere when they say they're going to be there or like, you know, they want that like the traffic on the freeway isn't supposed to be here at this hour. What the fuck is going on? Mercury retrograde is right for you, babe. So I lie often in exaggerating like, you know, things like that, which are fairly innocuous, but they're more for, I guess, for like sympathy amongst my friends and family. Like, I was delayed by an hour. It was insane. Like, you're a little melodramatic, which I presume has worked for you in your songwriting career. So it's okay if it's seeped over to the other parts of your life. Yeah, I mean, well, I mean, like, I mean, if you, why would anybody who's listened to the music I may think I'm like an even keel person?

So true. Easygoing. Yeah. No, it's not giving. Not at all. It's not giving. Number eight, what character in a book or a film do you relate to the most or why? In the general sense of, like, the hero or the villain or something like that or an actual

specific character, specific character. No, like a specific, I mean. I think when I was in college and kind of got turned on to like the beats. Every, every young man's journey. Of course, yeah. Some Ginsburg, some Ginsburg, some Keralaq, some Burroughs. I am on the road, actually, myself. Yeah, and it's really that, it's really that kind of predictable, honestly.

That, like, I think that for me, one of the things I really admire about Kerouac to this day is that, like, he, you know, he wrote about the people in his life with such like, um, such care and love. And, and a lot of these people were just kind of like, they were just normal work-a-day people that he kind of lionized and created these characters and these kind of personas out of these people who otherwise would have completely fallen by the wayside and never been documented. And I think for me as a songwriter, I think early on that really made

huge impression on me because I started to realize, like, oh, I can do that in my own new work. I can kind of write about my friends and write songs for them or write songs about our experiences, maybe even name-checking them in those songs, and then, you know, have a permanent record of this kind of time that we spent together. And to me, the Kerouac specifically, that was the main takeaway that I had from him was that he, you know, he wrote, he wrote about these, he kind of, he, you know, he kind of made these people immortal. in literature. Right.

Do you feel like while that is definitely honorable, there's also like a part of it that's like a get out of jail-free card for having to write about yourself as much? But you don't have to write about yourself as much if you write about other people? Well, when you're writing more character sketches, there's a little bit less room, right, to be writing about yourself

and kind of putting yourself out there as much. I think utilizing that kind of like, M.O. as a writer is a way to kind of titrate how much of yourself you want to put into something. So you can kind of tip it over into the person that you're writing about becomes basically just a prop to tell your own story. Right, right. And kind of just, you know, place yourself in varying degrees of backgrounds in the song. Well, it's all revealing, right? I feel like no matter what, you can't not reveal yourself when you're making any sort of art because it's all through your lens. So no matter how much you distance or don't distance yourself, even that choice shows

something about yourself. Yeah. And once you choose to write about something or once you choose to document something, it becomes its own reality. It's no longer, you know, an accurate kind of snapshot of a moment in time. It's your interpretation of that moment inside. Totally. Got a little deep there. Okay, number nine, what was your biggest sliding doors moment? Will you explain that to me once because Because it's not that I go out of my way to not see Guineath-Powtso films, but I don't know. I haven't seen that movie. Honestly, Shockton dismayed about how many people have not seen this film.

It's a fine film. Okay, basically, the question is, if you had made another choice, you wouldn't be here right now. In the film, it's about catching a train or not catching a train. So it splits a timeline, one where she catches the train, one where she doesn't, and, you know, different major things happen. based on that. Got it.

Okay. I think it probably would be, I was playing drums in a band in college called Shed. Shed. Because it was the 90s and every band had to have a one. 90s-ass name. I can, like, picture the merch. Do you know what I mean?

It kind of looks like a seaweed t-shirt, but it's Shed. That's how I'm seeing it. Yeah. And, you know, like also like Grandpa Simpson, you know, it was like, twas the style at a time. You know, like everybody had a one-name band, right?

So it was myself on drums. Nick, who plays bass, and Death Cab was the bass player. And then this guy, Armand, was the singer of songwriter. And we played a show, and I was wearing a homemade teenage fan club t-shirt. As you're a one to do. Bringing it back around to the band's playing thing. And I had been seeing, trying to date this woman named Suzanne for, like, the third time. And she brought a friend to the show.

And it was like, yeah, my friend, Chris has come to the show. and I think you guys might get along. He likes a lot of same music, you do, whatever. I was like, oh, okay, cool. And, like, he, like, after the show, we were, like, hanging out, and he was like, oh, teenage fan club. I love Teenage Fan Club.

And that was Chris Waller. And then, you know, one thing led to another, and we started this band. So, I mean, I don't know. I think we probably would have gone on regardless whether or not I was wearing the Teenage Fan Club T-shirt or not. But that was a good opening Salvo to be like,

hey, we're of the same tribe. Right. It got things. cooking faster. Yes. Yeah. Love that. Thank you, Teenage Fun Club. Thank you for everything Teenage Men Club, really, but especially this. Okay. Number 10, what characteristic are you most drawn to in other people? I mean, it seems like this is the answer more times than that, but it's people are being funny, right? A lot of people say that. Not everyone says that, but it does seem to be the most common answer. I'm so curious as to why. Is it just because it's like, because it wouldn't be my answer.

Really? What would your answer be? Probably integrity. Okay. Yeah. Or like self-awareness. I might take humor for granted, though. I mean, obviously it's like necessary for me. It's hard to pick one. But I kind of feel like I can't deal with unself-aware people.

And I can make it work. I'm funny enough. I can make it work with someone who's not that funny. You know, those are also very good. Those are really good answers too. But I think self-awareness kind of is like tangentially related to being funny. It can be. But I think you can be self-aware without being funny.

And I think you can be funny without being self-aware. Yeah, that's true. I think, I guess it's like I've dated people in my past that, I guess for me like a sardonic sense of humor is like really important to me. Sure. Because like I do this thing for a living that appears very serious. Oh, you're saying death cap recudia is not funny. We're not a comedy act.

No, we're not. We don't have a lot of funny songs, at least not that I'm aware of. But to me, it's like, I also, I mean, I think that people who are funny tend to not be pretentious, and that's also very important to me. Yeah. Well, I mean, because they're trying to ingratiate themselves to you on one level over another, right? Often, by being funny. Yeah, and I just think that life is so, like, such a mess so much of the time that, like, the ability to kind of take a step back from it and make fun of it is just super important to kind of to keep going. Yeah.

Yeah, I feel like a lightness not to there is a tear in the fabric, not to, you know. Yeah, I mean, for me, it's like the people that it's, you know, the people, the people who I've gone on with the best, be it friends or partners have been people who are really funny. Do you consider yourself funny? I think I'm funnier than people would expect me to be. I think that's true. But that's also like, but I know that I have a comedian friends. The bar is love.

is low and also like, but I think also like I have, you know, comedian friends of mine who like are get annoyed when like musicians try to be funny. Sure. They're like that's my thing. Yeah. And but also, you know, comedians and musicians are kind of fairly low on the, you know, like entertainment industry totem pole all things considered. So it's like we're down, we're kind of down in the trenches a bit.

Like, you know, actors and people are up there and they want to come down and swim it with us by making records and stuff. Right, right. Because they're like, oh, this person. They have coolness or funniness. Yeah, and they kind of, they want, oftentimes I feel like, you know, there's a lot of slum in it down in their comedy and music trenches, you know?

I wonder if when people say that the trait that they look for is funny, what they mean is a sense of humor. I wonder that because I think that you can be, you can have a really healthy sense of humor and not be overtly funny yourself. Do you know what I mean? But that person is still really a good time. Because you can, you can, you can joke with them and they get it. Yeah, they give you, they allow you like a sounding board for things that you think are funny

and give you the opportunity to either confirm or deny the fact that you think that that joke you made is funny or not, you know. Right. I do that, unfortunately, all the time. It's constant over here. I would love to be less funny, honestly. I think it's a mark of deep mental illness. and a lot of childhood pain, but that's neither here nor there.

Because you use humor to mask trauma and pain? I feel like when you develop a super strong sense of humor, it didn't come from nowhere, you know? Like it came as some sort of mechanism to survive. Yeah, right. And that's never, you know, necessarily means it was a positive reason that you needed to survive. That's all I'm saying.

Okay, number 11. Ben Gibbard. Who is the last person that you met that you were starstruck by? You're in Tinseltown. You'd be hobnobbing. You know, like, I can't remember the last time. Well, you know, yeah, I do.

But, like, I find myself, like, becoming starstruck by people who are not necessarily famous, like, in, like, the traditional sense of the word. Like, Malala? No, not like Malala. So I was in an airport, like, last. here and like I was in Dulles or whatever and there's this ultra runner that I'm like tangentially kind of I know like now I know them kind of tangentially through some other friends ultra running

running community but this woman named Courtney DeWalter who is like an absolute fucking badass ultra runner and she was like I was passing her in the airport and I just did like oh my God I'm such a big fan like as we were passing each other and and then I get a tech from like our mutual friend. It's like Courtney just said that she passed you in the airport and you were like yelled at her like saying you're a big fan. I'm like, yeah, I guess I did do that. Yes, I did do that.

But I think as far as people that people would know, somebody who people would know some years ago, I met Sir Mix a lot for the first time. Oh, hell yeah. Known Seattle resident, you're also a Seattle resident. Seattle resident, yeah. And it's like, Mix was like one of these dudes who like obviously growing up here,

it's like he was like our guy. You know, and we're talking, I'm talking like swass era. Sure, sure. Mix a lot. I'm not talking. Pre, uh, pre baby got back. Maybe got back. Although that's great too.

Um, uh, so it's like he was just like, we're like Posse on Broadway era. Right, right? Mix a lot, right? Yes, yes, yes. Um, so I met, we were, we were doing this like, it's such a convoluted dumb thing, but like a bunch of people in the music community were raising the 12th man flag on the space needle because the Seahawks were in the playoffs. It was some kind of weird copro like that, very convoluted thing.

And Mix didn't want to go up to the top of the space needle because he has an issue with heights. But I got to finally ask him if he'd ever lived in Bremerton, where I grew up, because there was all these rumors growing up that mixed a lot, like lived in Bremerton. That's how he wrote this on Bremelo. It was living in Bremerton. And he said that he had not lived in Bremerton. What about MXPX though? They are from Bermerton.

Bremerton. They didn't lie about that. They are. They went to like our rival high school. And so like I remember seeing them like before you know they were before they appeared you know, punk. Oh my god, amazing.

This is the best. Marvel Cinematic Universe Bremerton. Yeah. I remember seeing them in a church basement play a show in a church basement. Yeah, because they're known Christian band. Yeah, they were Christians. And you know, at this point now, you know, who gives a shit? But I think at in, in those, like, in those early,

less, early more judgmental days of being like a punk rock or whatever, that was like not cool. Sure. It was uncool. It was uncool. I got it. But, you know, but I have the utmost respect for those dudes because they have been grinding for like 30 years. They're fucking great band. I don't care what anyone says. I'll stand up. I'll say it. I love them. They're great. Magnified Plaid. But we were, but we were at different schools. So we didn't really like have a lot of cross over. And they were kind of like, there were people that we played shows within our little high school bands that, like, didn't want to play with them because they were Christian or whatever. It was like dumb shit like that. It was really judgment. It was very judgment. Yes, it was. And I'm

ashamed of it now. I have a further Seattle resident question. Have you ever come across David Matthews? Oh yeah. Yeah, I know, Dave. Excuse me. Yeah, I will use lives in Seattle. You guys are friends? Where do you see him? Like, the whole foods? Like, what are we talking? Last time I saw him I was like walking down the street in Wallingford And I hear somebody yelling my name from across the street And it's just like this gruff voice like Ben Ben

David Maders was yelling your name down the street And I kind of like I looked over and like I couldn't make him out at first And he was kind of disheveled And I was like, what the fuck? Who is that? And then he was like, it's Dave And I'm like oh fuck, how's it going Dave? And like we went over and chatted a bit

Yeah he's a really good dude He lives in Seattle he's out about all the time. I love him so much. Are you a fan of the music? Dave's good guy. I really like him. I just had a religious experience at the David Matthews band concert here in Irvine, California, just a few days ago.

I wasn't aware you were, like, jam adjacent. It's funny, I'm not at all except for Dave Matthews band, which I oddly don't super consider a Jan band, even though I know that they are in the Pantheon. I think maybe I've talked about this a lot, but we're talking. I think it might be because, A, I just got into them young and have stayed into them. I also feel like because it's jazz-based, so maybe I do like jazz, it's a different sensibility to, like, the music and the jamming than say like a Grateful Dead or like a God forbid fish or whatever. So it's when you're just like out in the beautiful night sky and you're just vibes

and then it goes into like a, you know, 12-minute long version of number 41, who am I? to argue with that beautiful bliss. Do you know what I'm saying? I hear what you're saying. I do think Dave is a really phenomenal songwriter and I think that that was very apparent to me. We played a benefit show with him some years ago where it was him

and Tim Reynolds on guitar. Yeah. So what is also the coolest man alive when he plays just wears the shades the whole time. Just so sick. And it was like a lot of friends of mine who are a big Dave Matthews fans who'd be like, I can't believe you're playing with Dave and Tim, man. I was like, what? I'm not aware of the

short hand. Should we go? to Cancun, Ben Gibbard, they do every year they play a beautiful series of shows in Cancun. It's like a week of Dave and Tim in Cancun. Doesn't that sound fun? Well, now we can't not go. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, exactly.

You can use your personal friendship with David to perhaps get us some sort of hookup. Yeah, I'll get us in. I'll get us in. Yeah, yeah. We'll get front row. No, but I think that was, that really kind of like, I mean, I was, I always, you know, considered him a really great songwriter, but then seeing those songs performed in that format,

it kind of resonated with me a bit more. because there's a lot going on stage in a Dave Matthews band show. It's like everybody's, it kind of has, and I don't mean this as a disc, it's just, but it has a little bit of like an everybody's solo. Yeah, yeah, totally. Like everybody's popping wheelies. There's, you know, a lot of time, a lot of fills, a lot of stuff. And just when the songs are stripped down, they're just like, it's the guitar and the vocal

and here's a guy adding some accompaniment. I really like that much. I have another theory that I feel like a lot, just to what you're saying, like a lot of these are really well written songs, but people are distracted more by the style of the playing, the style of production. But if it was covered in a style that they liked, they would be like super into it. My favorite example of this is there's gin blossom song, Allison Road. I love the gin blossoms also. There's been a renaissance of the gin, blossom.

People are coming around, but not considered a cool band. Tim Presley from Whitefence did a really good cover of Allison Road, but like in his very like sort of stripped down 60s style. and it's so sick and people loved it. And I was like, see, it's a good song. Like, you just can't hear it because you don't like 90s alt rock production or whatever. But, like, these are well-written songs. Oh, I've always liked the Jim Blossoms.

Like, going back to, like, I mean, yeah, the songs are fantastic. Like, they're, you know, the production being what it is is kind of, or the presentation, some of the arrangements might come off a little bit slick, but there's really not that much daylight between the Jim Blossens and Teen Chanklow. No, it's the power pop. I'll wait, all the way you're found out about you cover. Oh, that's a good. You know, I should do that one, actually. That's a really good song. You should.

It's a really good song. Is there a line that I could write that's sad enough to make you cry? Goodbye. Okay. Yeah. Number 12. When was the last time you slid into someone's DMs? Just recently, I kind of, I got, I started getting really into this group from Seattle called C-Lmon. I don't know if it's like, it's hard to tell these days if it's like a person using a name or it. or if it's an actual band, you know, whatever. And I saw that C. Lemon had started following me on Instagram. Yeah, yeah.

And I saw their little boot check. And I was like, oh, I need to like, I'm just going to send this person like a note saying, hey, I just really love your EP. Really excited to, you know, see you guys live at some point. And they wrote me back. This woman Natalie, who's like the main, I assume the songwriter, obviously the front person. Yeah. And I was just like, you know, it was very cordial.

I was like, yeah, well, when are you guys playing next? Oh, you guys from Seattle? I didn't realize they were from Seattle. I was like, oh, you guys from Seattle? Great. Oh, we're playing the tractor in a couple weeks. Oh, I'm going to be on tour. Well, let me next time you're playing, kind of thing.

But yeah, they're great. They have the song, check out the song Seller. It's great. Very big downstroke kind of like shoegazery vibes. I love that. I'll tell you, it doesn't totally count if they already follow you. See if he's sliding into N DMs. Oh, is that what that means?

It's a person that doesn't. Would you not agree, producer, Jesse? I'm just getting some backup on this. he says yes okay so then then uh i don't oh you know what yeah no i definitely i think last i i wrote um uh steve turner from mud honey

after i read his book and i to this day i've not heard back but you know well i don't see steve turner being like super online maybe he's not like checking check in the gram all the time maybe it's like a once every couple of months situation no but i'm also kind of like you know i made you know i'm I'm not like, I wasn't expecting to be vacationing with Steve Turner by the end of the year. Maybe he wants to come with us to see Dave and Tim and Kinkin. That's possibly.

Steve Turner, if you're listening, let's get back to Ben Gibbard. Are you one of the voices in the C-TAC airport? That really took me by surprise the last time I went there. I recorded something for that and they, they, but I never hear myself. They must have like, they must have edited me out of that. I always hear Duff McCagan and someone. from modest mouse. Yeah,

Duff is almost every time I go I hear Duff and he's like and like, yeah. And like, hey, is this Duff McCagan,

you know? Mayor of, the mayor of Seattle. Yeah, well, you know, he's like, you know,

he's like old school Seattle punk, right? You know this, right? I do know that because I did a very extensive Guns and Roses

episode of Vansplan. Um, if you guys are interested. We could get more into that. It's in there. But yeah, old school, what was this band?

Not the fast. The farts? The farts? The farts. well-known. Not the fastbacks. I think he might have played in an early version of the fastbacks. I should... I think, God, can you believe I can retain this shit?

That's psychotic. That was like a year and a half ago that I did that episode. What is going on? And there's nothing left. There's no room left for anything else. It's just obscure facts about Duff McGagan. Yeah, I remember there was a point, to that point, I remember being on tour back in the old, in the van days. And like, Wallace, Chris Walla came back to the van holding a box set

a CD box set of great American speeches the 20th century. And I was like, I was like, what is that? What is that? Why did you buy that? And he said, well, I realized, I know that, I know Cameron's speech from Ferris Bueller's Day Off by memory, but I don't know the I have a dream speech. And I should probably know that. And I was like,

you know, I guess we were like 23 or 24 at that point. And I was like, and even at that moment, I was like, oh, it's a pretty self-aware thing to do. You be like, you know, the information in this skull is a lot of it's worthless. Yes, a lot. I mean, I just have given up on, that's my law in life.

Yeah, that'll be, I mean, I'm not that far off from that either. That's what I'm going to do forever. I was going to be like, did you know that Ben Gibbard's parents don't let him listen to rock music when he was young when they said Thriller was Satan music? And then the next, and the follow-up question would be, who's Ben Gibbard? Probably not at the parties I go to, but maybe at some other parties.

Okay, number 13. What is one of the horniest songs? ever, in your opinion. Usually I just say the horniest song ever, but people don't like superlatives. So a horniest song ever. Oh, I want your sex by George Michael. Oh, good one. 100%. Because it's like, I mean, because at the end of it, it's just like, it just gets, I mean, first off that beat is just purvy. Totally. You know, that should be. Oh, to w wamp to wamp. Also he was pervy. All of his songs were like pervy and sexual. But this one was like very overtly. And when he gets to the end, then it's like, sex is natural. Sex is good. And it's like, and the way in the way he's

says, sex is natural, sex is fun. And you're like, it's like, this is, I mean, you're, and you're picking the most like straight up adjective you could possibly have for this. Like, yeah, sex is fun. I think we all agree that for most part, sex is fun. There's literally a line that's like, what do you consider pornography? So it really gets, it really gets into it. Yeah, I think, and I remember like when that song came out, I must have been like 10 or whatever. And the fact that that was on the radio was just like, I mean, just just seemed, it was like incredible that you could you could like you could put that on the radio

and it's like and now at number one I want your sex by George Michael like it wasn't it was a huge song there's a lot of songs like that where sometimes I'm like I can't believe these words are we'd just be saying them on the radio like it's more like relaxed by Frankie

goes to Hollywood. Is anybody mentioned that one yet either? I mean it's like literally like relax don't do it when you want to come. That's the lyric of the song. That one's a little feels more rapy than horny. Yeah, it is. I mean, it's, I don't know if it's rapy. I think it's

more just like, it's very like, it's like a very dumb thing to like say to somebody, you know, like, don't you fucking come right now? Yeah, yeah. Don't you do it? Don't you do it? We got a lot of print, which I think is always the right answer. Deftones, Bethany

Costantino said deftones and she's absolutely right. I don't know the deftones is like enough to know whether or not it's pervy or not. Okay. That's so good. It is. It is. It's horny. It's really horny. Deaf Tones, actually, speaking, you love covers. Deaf Tounds have a really incredible album of all covers. It's really good. Highly recommend.

Everything I've heard from the Death Tones I've always liked, I just haven't delved too far into the lyrics. Number 14. What is the biggest money that you have ever turned down? The Postal Service was offered a high six figures. to license a song to an airline that exists in the Middle East. Just leave it at that. ISIS Air. For all intents and purposes, as far as this country's treatment of women and queer people,

yeah, ISIS. Basically, like legal ISIS is what this country is, you know? And we kind of were like, I just can't. You had to draw the line there. didn't know that these people were big, big postal service fans, though. That's interesting. I don't know. I don't know if, I don't know whose call it was. Or who, who, what ad agency had suggested using such great heights for this. But yeah, you know, I mean, like, the argument can be made that any kind of licensing to any kind of corporation of any sort is, is a deal with the devil.

I understand people who would take that position. But I also think there are 100% lines that cannot be crossed. And in this particular case, it was like, yeah, no, we can't. Do you really understand that position? There's literally no ethical, like, breathing under capitalism. Like, you can't not engage with corporations. It's fine if you don't want to give your song to ISIS air. But, like, the rest of them, you're going to have to live.

Yeah, you know, and I think that, you know, in general, you know, it doesn't matter which side of the political spectrum, one might be. beyond. It's like, you know, I think that we have, I think that this notion of like purity tests or kind of like being pure of ideology or like of, you know, of ethics or whatever is just kind of a fool's errand. Like, it breaks down pretty quickly. Six figures is not that big of a hit to take. Like, do you feel like if it was like a million dollars, you would have like thought about it more? I mean, I mean, look, I mean, to be honest, yeah, sure, everybody's got a price, right? I mean, like, you know, I mean, that's always, that's always, you're like, yes, Habibi, actually,

please have this song with my, with my warmest regards. I mean, it's probably, it might be one of those things. If it gets over a certain number, then you're like, well, I mean, we could donate a portion this to the Jewish defamation league or something like that, you know, we could, we could figure out a way to like square this ethically, right? I have to bring it up every episode because it's so insane, but Jeff Rickley, I don't think anyone will top Jeff Rickley's story from Thursday where he said they turned down $1 million for an American Express ad campaign.

Wow. Which then went to Huba Stank. It's such a good story on every level, except probably for his heart and nervous system, but for me, I can't get over it. It's so psychotic. No, it's insane that somebody would be like, you know, we got to have, it doesn't matter who it is.

It's like, this isn't a knock on Thursday. It could be fucking death capricunity. It could be anybody. It's like, we've got to have that song. A million dollars. It wasn't even a song. It was them to be in the print ad. I get a million dollars to be in a print ad for American Express.

They didn't have to play a weird concert for like American exec ads or like. I don't think so. Wow. Okay. No. I mean, I need to know more about this. It's pretty well. So you can feel better about ISIS era is what I'm saying.

I actually, when I get off this, this podcast, I'm going to go make a call and see if I can get back, get back in touch with ICE. Hey, are you guys still interested? We do have a reunion. tour, so it's sort of back in the mix if you guys are looking for a song. We've established that a million dollars is the point that I will sell out. You're like, has the price gone up, any chance? Okay, number 15, what's the best live show you've ever seen? Best live show ever seen.

I think probably the first time, it's funny that we, you know, like, are you familiar with a band called Monotonics? So they're this Israeli bands And I saw them in 2006 or 7 And they were playing at the The Comet Tavern here in Seattle And it was like they're one of those bands

It's like there was a drummer, a guitar player, and a singer And like with all due respect to monotonics It wasn't the kind of They don't play the kind of music that you want to like put on in your spare time. It's not like a let's make dinner and listen to monotonics. It's like the Melvins or something, who I love,

but I'm not really putting it on at the house to make dinner. Yeah, but it's not even that. But it's not even like, it's not even, it's less song-oriented. It's just kind of like very like, like I'm trying to think because I'm kind of, yeah. Like it's like, it's like,

Fugazi adjacent noise music. But it's like, it was in the, the Comet Tavern, they played on the floor. And it's like, by the end of, the show, like the singers hanging from the rafters, and the drums are on fucking fire,

like in the middle of the room. And everybody who, like, worked at the establishment was like, this is fine. This is totally fine. We have a drum set on fire in the middle of our bar. And it was like one of those shows where like you go in cold and somebody's like, you should

see this band, they're pretty great. And you go in with like virtually no expectations. Somebody's told you that it was good or it's worth seeing. And then being in the audience for that show, which is like, you know, much more of like a, you know, punk band playing on the floor, everybody's surrounding them, kind of like that kind of communal feel that we tend,

you know, I don't tend to do a lot anymore. Obviously, we did a lot when I was younger, right? But then just to have this performance just be like, just like an assault, you know, assault on the senses in every possible way. and just to leave that show being like, let's flip a car over. Right, right. Let's set something on fire.

Like, I want to do something terrible right now. I have all this energy now. Right. And I want to destroy something, you know. So it wasn't necessarily the best show you've ever seen by normal standards, but perhaps you are at this point have seen so many shows that you have become a little bored. and this was the most interesting and stimulating show you've ever seen. Well, look, I mean, I saw The Cure two months ago

where it was one of the greatest shows I've ever fucking seen. Oh, yeah, me too. So it's like, I saw the shoreline outside of San Francisco. And so, you know, I still go to a lot of shows. I still see things that really kind of blow my mind. But I feel in this particular case, it was so outside the realm of my normal showgoing and music listening kind of tendencies

that, like, it was such a visceral experience that was really unlike most of the shows I go to, which are like somebody, you know, playing guitar and sobbing into a microphone, you know? Sure, a lot of crying. Did they have merch? They might have, but I think if they did, it was like that kind of merch that was like,

they went to the store and bought a bunch of shirts and, like... Sure, and then painted it. Yeah, and like took a marker and wrote monotonics on it. It was like that kind of merch. Totally. I don't have to look into this. I don't have about YouTube.

That sounds very interesting. well, danger. 24. Okay. Number 16, Ben Gibbard. When in your life were you the most, you know, fucked up wasted, hammered, trashed? I went through a period in college. This is like mid, late 90s.

Shed era. Yeah, shed era. You know, everybody knows shed era, Giverd, you know. Where I was never like a big drug guy. But, you know, and the old heads listening to this might know what these are, but I got really into mini-thens. You know what many-thens are? So it used to be that you could go to like a bodega virtually anywhere. I'm assuming everywhere in the country, but certainly on the West Coast, definitely in Washington State.

And like on the counter were these like bottles of pure ephedron. Oh, my God. Oh, mini-thens. Oh, yeah. Many things, yeah. They were like, there was other ones too. They all had some, because they were like diet pills basically. Yes, I know exactly what you're talking about.

Yeah, but they were marketed as like asthma medication or like, but they were truck. It was just truck. It was speed. Like literal speed. And you know, as like the meth epidemic started really kicking up and people were just like, tweakers were just buying boxes of these and like just like basically like lighting on fire and you have meth or whatever. I don't know how easy it was like, it was like super easy to like convert this up in

methamphetamine. I don't know if they, I think it became, I'm assuming it became like illegal to just sell this stuff at a boutiquega. Yeah. But like, you know, towards the end of my college years, I would routinely like drink a lot and eat a lot of those and then kind of find myself in this weird state where you're like speedy, like you're speeding really hard, but you're also really fucked up. You're like you're really drunk.

But in your mind, your mind is. fairly clear or at least you think it's clear. So you think you're having, like, you know, another Simpsons reference, like you think you're like when Homer's at that like, like, you know, he's at that dinner party and he's like very elegant and very put together. And then they show the reality and he's just like slobbering on the floor. Like, and I had so many occasions of me like just Irish exiting a party and like sleeping in my car and like waking up like in a car in some parking lot with like nobody around because the party had ended eight hours before or whatever. I felt like a hobo. Yeah. And

Yeah, and yeah, exactly. I basically be in a hobo. And, you know, in the early death cab days, we always had like a bottle of mini-thens, like on the dash of the van because we never had enough money to, like, stay at a hotel. And if we couldn't find somebody to stay with, we would just drive all night. So whoever was going to drive all night would pop two or three mini-thens,

and you're like on speed, basically driving all night to like whatever the next city is. You know, not great. Not great. Damn. Crazy. Yeah. but you know we were all young ones yeah it was a long time ago there's another drug that used to be legal oh my god it's gonna kill me

it was around like rave times and they would sell it at like head shops and at and at like liquor stores and stuff and then very quickly they realized that this was like basically a full-on psychedelic and they took it away do you know what talking about it was like well it was one of the things that was like sold on like next to like the fake dick pills and stuff like at a mini-mart yeah Yes, exactly. I keep wanting to call it Euphoria, which was the name of the fake ecstasy on Beverly Hills 902.1, but that's not what it was called. But it was something like that. Basically what it is is 2CB. It's like a real drug, which now you can only buy from drug dealers. But that's what it was. It was 2CB. Anyways, neither here nor there. Number 17 and 18, Ben Gibbard, are tandem questions. They go together. What do you love the most about being famous? and what do you hate the most about being famous? And don't say I'm not famous because you wouldn't be on this program.

Oh, that was going to be my answer, though. I know. I could tell. I felt it coming from you. And I'm like, at the very least, you're famous to like a large swath of death cab for cutie and postal service fans.

Yeah, I like to say that I'm within a three block radius of a venue I'm playing. I'm super famous. You're famous of David Matthews. That's huge. And sometimes I'm famous in record stores. You know, I mean,

I think probably my favorite thing about where I am in my life as far as my visibility and notoriety is like doors just kind of open that don't open for people who are not in my position. So it's like... Gone. For example, like some years ago when I was living in L.A.,

John Kale was performing Paris 1919, that album. I don't know if you know that record or not, but it's one of my favorite records. He was performing at UCLA with like the UCLA Philharmonic. And, you know, I had, like, reached out through management to be like, hey, I'm willing to pay for tickets. But, like, you know, I would love to just get good seats for this because, like, I got to see this. This is one of my favorite records. And it went from, like, yes, you can have seats, but also, John would like you to join him for a couple songs.

Oh, I'm Ben Gibber. I'm not famous. Nobody knows who I am, except for John Kale, who asked me to join him on stage for a song. Yeah. So, sorry, a couple of songs. It's like when things like that happen that are. kind of the best part about being in my situation where you start to realize that like even though I don't walk around in my daily life kind of thinking on the shit, you know, that like musicians

know other musicians and certainly are aware of like a lot of musicians are aware of other people's work and that it's it blows my mind sometimes when that actually extends to people that I grew up admiring or that are huge influences of mine. So when those kind of things happen, it's pretty phenomenal. I would say the worst part about it is, this doesn't happen that often, but like there are times when I might be having a very heated conversation with somebody

or a very intense conversation with a friend or a loved one or a partner or something like that and you're like in public having a conversation and you're talking about shit, it's like really personal or like very, or maybe you're delving into some subject matter that is not safe for work, whatever. You just kind of like, look, we're having this thing

and we're trying to work the shit out. Or like you're having a spat with a partner or something like that. And then, you know, I might have out of the corner of my eye kind of see that, my friend Andrew Kenny from American Analog Set came up with this term. So I have to give him credit for it. You realize that you got recognized? Recognized.

I say it all the time. I didn't know that's who came up with it. That's amazing. We've been always wondering who came up with that because Bethany taught it to me, and I say it all the time. It's the best term in the world. Yeah. I mean, I have to think that Andrew at least was on the ground floor of it because I heard it in like 1999 from him.

No, that's huge. Andrew, thank you for your service. It's such a perfect term. Yeah. And like, so just yesterday, you know, and I want to be very clear. This doesn't happen. This is something that happens to me every day, but it did happen yesterday. And I was like having a conversation with a friend of mine. We're talking about a lot of really heavy stuff that's going on in our lives. And I see a guy kind of creep up at a coffee shop. I see a guy kind of creep up. And like I see a guy kind of creep up. And like I see the phone come up and I see that he's like, he's like, he's like, and you know, when this is, you kind of get a sixth sense for this. You're kind of like, you sure. And like, he's kind of taken a photo and I'm kind of like, I'm not going to say anything.

I'm just going to let this happen. And then he kind of like, you could see he was kind of psyching himself up to come up and say hi. And he did and he was very nice. And we had a chat for, you know, a minute or so and asked him what, you know, his name, what he did. Okay, but couldn't, couldn't he be normal? and, like, not take a weird sneak photo? I mean, you know, I don't know. I just think, like, I mean, like, look, I mean, I stocked Mark Arm when I was like 15, you know.

Yeah, you stop someone and you ask, like a normal person. You don't just sneak a photo of them. It's creepy. We also, when I was 15, we didn't have cameras in our pockets. So, you know, but like I could, but, you know, I understand where the guy was coming from. He was like, oh, I don't know. I don't know if that's him. I'm sure he's taking a photo to send it to somebody.

Be like, is this the guy. Is this what I think it is? and then he must have got some kind of confirmation, so he came over, and it was very pleasant. He was a nice guy. But that was a fairly innocuous version of that. There have been some moments that I'm in the middle of something very intense, and somebody comes up to me.

And of course, I'm always like, I do my best to just be like, thank you, be kind in that moment because you recognize it, even though I just think I'm some fucking dude, that these are the kind of moments that I remember from my life when I met people that I admired or knew for music or whatever they did. And, you know, the ones that I had a not-so-great experience with, the ones I still remember at 47. You know, so it's, you know, you do your best to kind of just be like,

you have a, there's a social contract that you entered, whether or not you signed it or not, when you kind of entered into this world of doing something in public that people pay money to come see. And, like, you, part of that social contract is, like, you owe those people at least just basic kindness and like respect when they do come up to you and talk to you even if you're not in the mood to do it. Right.

That's really kind. It's really big of you in Denver. Nice of you. I must tell you, I've recently gotten into the album wrong way up. Oh, that KL Eno record? It's great. So good. It's so fucking good.

I can't stop listening to. I'm a little late to the game, but what a gorge genius. beautiful. Shout out, John Kale, your personal friend. All right. Number 19 is the wild card. First, I have to tell you something because it's so fucking funny and you probably won't listen to the Death Cab episode because you're normal. Or if you do, just don't tell me about it. But producer Dylan, who is no longer with us on the Bandspan program, but forever with us in our hearts, was a very huge death cab for cutie preteen fan. And I hit her up and I was just like, what's up with this bird, you know, on the transatlanticism cover?

And I just need to read you a response for VATA because it's so perfect. She just went, asking me this is like asking me what's up with the Mona Lisa. I don't know. I've been looking at this my whole life. All I see is the symbol, the icon itself. I have no idea what it means. I can't look at this objectively. She said it's like looking at the, what's up with the Mona Lisa?

really got me. Who is your co-host on the Death Cab show? Michael Tedder. Okay. Yeah, do you know how music. I don't think I do. He's a big fan. So he loves Death Cup for Kitty.

Okay, my wild card question is, as we've covered a couple of times here, you're super into doing cover songs. You've done many cover songs. You're great at them. Is there a song that you've always wanted to cover? but you're for some reason too afraid to do it, or it seems too insurmountable or too hard for your, you think you can't do it properly?

I've never actually covered my favorite song. Which is? There she goes by the laws. Oh, interesting. Why do you think you don't want to attempt that? I think because it has been covered a number of times, and I don't want to speak disparagingly about anybody who's covered it, But it's like, I mean, to me, that's, it's my favorite song for a number of reasons,

but I think it's like, it's such a perfect, perfect blast of like pop bliss, you know? And like, you know, I think the rumors have been fairly dispelled that it's about heroin, but that was kind of urban legend forever that the song is about heroin. And to me, it's like that, you know, I don't know how familiar are with that band or the story of the making of that. record, but they attempted to make that record three times. And Lee Mavers, who is like the brainchild songwriter of the laws, he hates the Steve Lily White version of the record, which is the way the record we all know and love now. And according to, you know, according to lore, you know, part of the reason that he never made

or released any music after that was like he's one of those obsessive people who like, he wants it to sound a certain way, you know, and, you know, I have. my many theories about that, which it could be, that will do that on the Laws, bands playing will be just one record. It'll be a half-hour podcast because there's only one record. Sure.

Yeah. My dream, please, from your mouth to God's ears. I'm so tired. Yeah, just do a short one. And so, but I think it's just that like there are so, it is such a ubiquitous song. It's a song that pretty much anybody who's has been into guitar music or alternative rock or indie rock,

whatever over the last 30 or 40 years knows. And it just feels a little bit like covering, hey, Jude, you know. It just feels like it's canonized in its own right. And I think that like oftentimes we choose covers for a handful of reasons. One might be, hey, look how cool my record collection is. Like something super obscure. I like the Smiths. Yeah.

Or like here's this like here's this obscure singer songwriter. You guys don't know, but I do. And I'm going to play one of their songs. or everything from that to like this is the biggest song in the world right now and I'm going to play it because I know that everybody knows it. Right, I'm going to do my own twist on it. Yeah, totally.

I have to say, I hadn't thought about it until now, but I think the reason that song is so effective is because it does this like magic trick of like both like encapsulating what it feels like to be in love but also within it holding the knowledge that you'll lose it. It does it has both going on. at the same time. So like what it's like somehow that feeling of being in love,

but also that sorrow of losing it in one song. It's so brilliant. It's wonderful. And it's so simple. It's one of those songs that like it feels like it had to have existed before 1989. Totally. It sounds like a cover of itself. This is a very classic thing that we talk about sometimes.

I'm like this song is so good that it sounds like it's already a cover and that's like a really high compliment, you know? Well, and it's also in the songs if anybody wants to talk shit on it, you know, my retort would be like, then, you know, You write something that good. If it's that played out and it's that simple, then write something that good. You can't. Yeah, I'll watch.

Okay. Number 20, Ben Gibbard. When was the last time you cried? You know what? Honestly, you know what? You're saying such great heights. This is not going where you think it's going. But we were in rehearsals last week.

And, you know, I don't want to give away the end of the show. But we are doing a song together. Postal Service and Death Guy were playing a song together. You're the Spider-Man pointing out the Spider-Man meme. Yeah, exactly. But it was this moment of like, just like we're playing the song and I look around and it's like, I never in my wildest dreams thought that these,

I would be looking over and there's Jenny playing guitar. And there's Jimmy and there's Nick and there's Jason and Dave and Zach. and we're all just like in this moment, like jamming on this song. And it just got a little weepy. I was kind of like, this is like such a beautiful, I mean, you know, the story,

the, you know, the narrative of, you know, the parallel narrative of Death Cab and Pulse Service is not like, you know, there wasn't as if like, you know, there wasn't any ill feelings or ill will

between these groups of people, but it was a tense time, you know, because Pulse Service kind of took off and became this like crazy cultural phenomenon. on and Death Cab had not yet released transatlanticism and hadn't done all that stuff. So it was kind of an awkward, a little bit of an awkward time. So kind of now 20 years later, be all playing together.

And it's just like a pretty powerful moment to look around and be like, holy shit, these are my favorite people in the world. We're all playing music together. That's great. That's so cool. I can't wait. I will be crying for the duration of this entire. This is like, because you're also doing all of transatlanticism.

Is that right? Yeah. So Death Cab will do transatlanticism. There'll be a break. I'm going to fucking have. a full breakdown. I can't even listen. To this day, I can't listen to that album without getting like extremely emotional. It's an issue. Well, I heard, I heard you used a term, I listened to the band's plain with Hanif on the cure after I saw the cure. Yeah. And, um, you used the term

MENTIB, which I thought was kind of, I will be having a MTV. It's kind of a fun, kind of a fun way to kind of encapsulate something very serious. Can you invite David Matthews also to the Hollywood Bowl show and perhaps seat him next to me? Yeah. I mean, I mean, Yeah, I mean, I'll put it. I guess I'll have to fly him down, but, you know, I mean, you asked. So, yeah, sure, I guess I can do that. Am I invited to the Hollywood Bowl show? Of course you are.

I need to have my men to be so important. Okay, I can't, cannot wait. This comes out next week, though, so do you not want that story? No, that's fine, yeah, because we're going to be touring. The first show is in like a week. Okay, perfect. Okay, number 21. What is your greatest regret, Ben Gibbard?

Greatest regret. Forgive me if this is like I'm doing the podcast. politician thing where I'm like answering the question that is an easier question to answer or the question that I wanted to answer, not the question that you just asked me. That's okay. This is a free form podcast. That's what I figured. We have fun here.

But I guess it's like, you know, I wouldn't change anything about my career as a musician and, you know, not a day goes by that I just, I am just feel so fortunate for the fact that at 47, I'm still able to do this and do it at, you know, I won't say a high level, but certainly, like, you know, we're still making music that people seem to like, you know. Um, uh, but I do think that the older I get, the more, the more, um, I recognize how many things I've missed out on or that I was unable to participate in or be there for because of this life that I chose for myself or that chose me or whatever, you know, and, you know, it's like, it's births, deaths, it's funerals, it's, you know, it's birthdays, it's, you know, people going through difficult times are not able to physically be there with them. And so it's not that so much that I have a regret about this being my

life or job or combination of the two. But I think I have, it is not lost on me that, you know, there have been some, there have been some things that I have missed in people's lives that I've not been present for either emotionally or physically or both because, you know, I was so up my own ass, you know, especially in the early years of doing this, that like, I couldn't be bothered to kind of be present in ways that I really should have been present. I think that's a really thoughtful answer, and you didn't do the thing that most people do,

which is they say they don't have regrets because they don't believe in regrets, which is a totally fair way to answer it as well. But that's bullshit. Everybody has a regrets. I tend to think so, but it is an easier way to answer the question. So I'm thinking about changing the question

to do like Dave Matthews. Yeah. And that'll just be always, I think that's going to be a good... I'm trying to get him to come on the pod. So I feel like if I talk about him on every episode, that's a really good way to get him to be like, oh, I would love to meet this woman.

She's absolutely not mentally ill. No. She seems a totally normal person. She seems totally normal and I would love to talk to her. What about what about what are your favorite, your five favorite Dave Matthews band songs and why? And why? And favorite lyrics, let's go. No, that's a great answer. I do think, I do sometimes think being an artist, especially if you're trying to be a great artist, is somewhat selfish.

It just has to be. It just seems like it's baked in. I wouldn't know because I'm a podcaster, but from the outside looking in. To an extent, yes, but at the same time, it doesn't give you carte blanche to be a terrible person. And I've certainly run across people in my career that their identity as a musician or as an artist has been used as an excuse for some very shitty behavior. And I think that there's, I think there's just kind of a, you know, it's kind of like a case-by-case basis, right? Sure. That's not what I'm not talking like Pablo Picasso hours over here, but I'm just saying that like, you know, I think you have to be somewhat self-absorbed and dedicate a certain amount of time to your craft to make it good. Oh, for sure, without a doubt. I mean, you can't, you can't like, yeah, this requires a lot of work, but, and a lot of that work is solitary work or, you know, it involves a lot of time alone and not necessarily, you know, touring is not necessarily conducive. to like a good home life work balance, you know?

Right, a healthy relationship. Although I always liked dating touring musicians because I appreciate the space. Yeah, you get like nine months out of your yourself. Yeah. It's neither here. Once again, neither. Neither. No, okay.

Number 22, we're almost done. We're in the home stretch. What song would you like to hear just before you die? And is it, I will follow you into the dark? So in your mind, you're like, he's going to want to hear his own song. Like he's a rapper or something like that. When I asked Stephen Jenkins that and he was taking a long time to think about it and I just started going do do do do do do do and he was like, that would be my punishment.

That would be the worst possible thing that could happen. So I think probably that would be the same for you. It would be like the absolute worst possible thing you could hear before you die. I will fall you into the record. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe that would be a neutral thing for you to hear. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think I'd want to hear that.

I'm kind of, I'm kind of, I'm kind of hitching my wagon to something I heard Jimmy say a long time ago. But there's a, there's a, there's a Brian Eno piece on Apollo Atmosphere is called an ending ascent, ending an ascent. That's just an absolutely stunning piece of music. I think probably to kind of tip my hat to some of my more jazz leanings. Malady. Yeah, exactly. There's a, on the Bill Evans record, everybody digs Bill Evans. There's a song called Peace, Peace, which is just an absolutely beautiful, beautiful piece of music.

It's just so incredibly inviting and beautiful. So I think I will not take Jimmy's answer. So I'll say peace, piece by Bill Evans. Okay, you'll leave Brian, Peter, George, St. John LeBaptiste, Della, you know, to Jimmy and you'll take the... Yeah, Jimmy, yeah, I think Jimmy, when Jimmy was talking about a similar moment, he was talking about just dying in a car crash and hearing that song. So, you know, which he's not, he's still very much alive,

and I hope he is for a very long time. Yes, we pray for that as well. People usually don't like this question, but you handle it like a champ. That question I just answered? I think people don't like to think about their own mortality. But sorry, welcome to the party. Yeah. All right.

Last two questions. Number 23, Ben Gibbard, what do you think about me? I find you very engaging and you're funny. And, you know, as is always the case with meeting people basically in public, you know, because this is like a public conversation. Sure. It's always, it's always interesting. You always leave some of these conversations being like how much of the interaction I had with that.

person is a reflection of who they are as an individual and how much of it is a reflection of the persona they are they are using for this particular purpose. That's a good question. And, you know, I'm not sure I'll ever know the answer to that. But I really enjoy the time that we've spent together in this kind of format, be it doing this or the dance one. So thank you. That's a good answer.

I would go one step further and say that you, even in an interaction privately with a and you don't ever know how much of that is truly them and how much is the persona that they have with you. Because I think we always, no matter what, have some sort of persona going, that's just what it is to be alive and interpreted by other people. Like, I don't think anyone ever gets to see your highest self. No, and also, you know, when you, when the time you spent with somebody is limited to a couple of hours,

you know, you're kind of like playing your greatest hits, right? Sure. So it's like, you know, I am this annoying in real life, though. I think producer Jesse can attest. Yeah, that might be the case. But no, it's like, you know, it's like, you know, I wouldn't have said I would do this if I didn't enjoy the time you spent doing the bands one thing for what that's worth. Okay, great.

I love that. I love that. You're not despo for press. I mean, honestly, I'd like to be doing less of it, to be perfectly honest right now. I feel very, you know, I'm not going to sit here and be like, oh, it's so hard, you know. But it is like, with this tour coming up in a lot of the retrospective kind of pieces about the albums, there's been a lot of talking about them. And, you know, I'm of two minds.

On one end, I feel so fortunate and grateful that people want to talk about these things that I had a part in making 20 years ago. Because, you know, 20 years is a long time. But also, like, I'm really looking forward to not talking to anybody for about, you know, myself for some time after this. I love talking about myself. I feel like I'd be a great musician if that was the part of the job. You should do it.

There's a lot of money in it. It's a really lucrative. It's a lucrative business. All right. Last question. Number 24. What do you want to plug Ben Gibbard? Hmm.

I mean, do I have to plug something? Do I have to like? I mean, I feel like we, like if you don't want to overtly do it, you can just hide behind the fact that you've already done it like eight times. Like Asphalt Meadows, the tour.

We all know what you're selling here, babe. We all know what you came on here to sell. Yeah, yeah. I think like, yeah, I feel like, you know, between the record coming out around this time last year, touring that for nine months, diving into this kind of retrospective tour. Yeah, I am, I think, I think the job. general public is probably really ready for me to go away for a while. And I'm more than... You're just as ready to. I'm more than willing to oblige. I think that one of my issues in general

around how kind of pop culture works now is that we just don't get a break from people anymore. Yeah, it's a punitive. We might have discussed this on the band's plan. I can't remember, but it's like, you know, I felt like earlier in our career was still of an era where, you know, you were rewarded with an audience by making something. So you put out a record and you go and you talk about it, you play shows, and then you go back into your hole and you like work on stuff and then you go back. And then when you have something to share with people, you emerge and you have your photo taken and you make videos and you record stuff.

And it just feels, you know, I will. Now you have to be endlessly relevant. Yeah, and it's like there are people in the world now that I will certainly not name on this podcast that I'm so fucking sick of just seeing their faces. And it feels as if there's just this like, you know, one of the things that frustrates me and maybe I'm just an old head and all this, but like we just never get a break from people and there's very little mystery left. Yeah, totally.

It's also like kind of exhausting. I mean, I say this as someone who literally puts out four to five hours of content of myself every week here on this podcast feed. But it also is exhausting to feel like you have to constantly like sell your persona in order to do an art form, which I do consider podcasting an art form. Well, Ben Giburn, it's been a real joy and delight and a pleasure to have you on this program. Thank you for coming on. It's been really fun.

I've really enjoyed this. I hope you have as well. I have. It was so fun. come back next week for a new episode of 24 question party people and make sure to catch both of Ben Gibbard's bands, Death Cap for Cutty and Postal Service, on tour in your area soon. Thanks for listening to 24 question party people. And thanks to my guest, Ben Gibbard.

While Ben does insist he has nothing to thug, he is in fact on tour with Death Cat for Cutty and Postal Service right now. Go to deathcat for cutie.com to see the dates and get to. tickets. This episode was produced by Chris Sutton and Jesse Miller Gordon with help from Justin Sales. Our gorgeous theme song was composed by Heather Fortune. Special thanks to Katie Carmichael, Sean Fantasy, Rob Harpilla, and the fantasy television program, The Wheel of Time. Come back every Tuesday for a new episode of 24 Question Party People on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. Question party people.