Bandsplain - Cocteau Twins with Claire Shaffer

Episode Date: September 16, 2021

The Scottish dreampop progenitors Cocteau Twins have a surprisingly dramatic backstory for being known as the ultimate band of ethereal, cryptic musicians. We get into all of it with Rolling Stone alum Claire Shaffer, who helps us decode their mystique, as well as to champion the “no English, just vibes” lyrical philosophy of one brilliant Elizabeth Fraser. Follow Claire Shaffer on Twitter at @claireeshaffer. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's with this band anyway? I don't get it. Can you please explain? Wait, like, Bansplain. Oh, and welcome to Bandsplain. I am your host, Yossi Salick. This is a show where I invite an expert guest on to explain a cult band or iconic artist to me and to you. Today's episode is about the Cotto Twins. You've never heard Cokto Twins. I trust you have at least seen the memes.

This is what the cocto twins sound like. My guest today is Claire Schaefer, a music journalist, former staff writer at Rolling Stone, and currently a graduate student at NYU's Moving Image Archiving and Preservation Program put some respect on her name. Welcome to the show, Claire. Hi, thank you for having me, Asi. I mean, I'm just so excited today to learn about the cockto twins,

because I'll be honest with you. it's something I never got too much into. Yeah, I feel like the cocto twins, everyone kind of knows them vaguely from that one song about heaven or Las Vegas, but they don't know who they are or they only know them from the memes, as you were saying. Yeah. Yeah, it's fun because they have such an interesting and honestly very chaotic history. So I'm excited to talk about it with you. So chaotic, So Scottish. Claire, are you the type of person who, like, at a party is, like, cornering people to be like, listen, have you really listened to the 1996 cocto twins released, milk and kisses, um, through the lens of, like, is that kind of your vibe? I try not to be, but if I know the person, if I know the person is like a music nerd, I'll be like, you have to have heard the cocto twins. If you're a nerd for music, like, how have you not heard any Cockto Twins music?

Like, it just feels so fundamental to my understanding of, like, kind of rock and pop and, like, how you can modify those things and experiment with them that I'm like, you should, you should listen to this band if you're into that, you know? Right. As a music writer, you feel that it's, like, part of your duty to be familiar with, at the very least, the Cockto Twins. Well, it's also, like, I just love them as a band. and like because there's such a kind of impenetrable band when it comes to what are they talking about in their songs.

Like I have no idea what they're saying. Like it could be really nice to have like other people you know who are just as like confused and bewildered by the Cocter Twins music and to kind of like talk it out with them. A support group if you will. Yes. I feel you're uniquely positioned to talk about this band because you are a music writer, a deep lover of sad music. And thirdly, embarking on a journey in honor of archiving history. And it's like, what are we going to do here today besides talk about Cacto Twins, love sad music, and really archive the history of a band?

Well, yeah, my favorite things. Should we just, like, jump into it, like, talk about who the members are, where they formed, like, what's the deal? Sure. So the two members of the Cotto Twins, were there from start to finish were Robin Guthrie, who's their guitarist and kind of the main producer for the group. And then Elizabeth Fraser, who was the vocalist, famously known as the voice of God by the British music press. When they started out, they had a bassist named

Will Hedgy. He was later replaced by Simon Raymond, who was also a bassist and a piano player and a multi-instrumentalist. They started out in this little town. called Grangemouth, which is this tiny little village in Scotland. And I always find it kind of fascinating that they started out there because for such a gorgeous sounding band, that kind of like invented dream pop or, you know, invented this like beautiful form of music. They kind of grew up in the boondocks. Like not just the boondocks.

It's like grim. Grangemouth is like an industrial. It's like fully sad, gray. Yeah. It's built like their childhood friend who became their tour. manager. He described it as a village built around an oil rig. Like, basically BP controlled the entire town. I just imagine like smog floating up in the sky. It's like dark and gray. And actually Robin, when he was a kid, interned at BP, because I guess like if you grow up in Grangemouth,

that's just like what you do. There's like one place to work. The pub or BP? Or yeah. You either DJ at the clubs. Yeah, you work at the pub or you intern at BP. But actually, as the mythology goes, he apparently learned most of his electrical engineering skills from working at BP. So like everything he learned about kind of guitar pedals and sins and all that kind of stemmed from his time there, which I find really interesting. Shout out BP for the enduring legacy of the cocktail twins. That's actually their main export. But yeah, he was, you know, kind of your typical punk kid, you know, late 70s, early. 80s. He was very into bands like the birthday party and the pop group and bow house and like all these like

early, you know, kind of post-punk bands. Sure. And he and his friend Willa Hedgy would like play in a bunch of bands together. And then on the side, he would actually DJ at this club, which is how he met Liz Fraser because she was like one of the people who would go dancing at this club. She was only 17, but she was one of those people that like whenever he would play like the weird stuff and most people would like cleared the dance floor. She was the one who was like staying on the dance floor and like doing all these like weird dance moves to whatever he was playing. Liz was quite honestly, she grew up in a pretty tough situation.

She grew up very poor. She's talked about, you know, when she was very young being sexually abused by a member of her family. She was sort of known to be very shy her whole life. She like left home at age 14. And yeah, she was just like one of these girls who was like, you know, shaved her head. when she was in high school and was like on the bleachers smoking cigarettes and it's like you know she got like sid vicious tattoos when she was a teenager like all this you know

I know it's like this kid is more badass than I am but she you know was kind of an outcast but Robin saw her and was like oh you seem really cool and as it turns out that even though she was very shy as her mother would later tell Robin and Robin would later tell an interviewer she was like singing all the time from like a very young age. And so Robin heard her sing and was like, oh my God, like, you should totally be a part of our band because we need a vocalist. But because she was so shy, she wouldn't even sing in front of Will. She would only sing in front of Robin because turns out she and Robin started going out together shortly after this. So whenever the band had had to record, Will had to like leave the room. So Liz could like lay down her vocals. But then like

Will and their manager would be like up against the wall listening to her and like would talk about how gorgeous she sounded. Incredible. Yeah, they have such like an interesting origin story. I read an interview with them a little bit later after the formation where I think enemy asked Guthrie. He was like, does your guys's like relationship and like love? Does that affect the music? And he was just like, it must do? Yeah. I don't see how you can separate the two. Like, Real like all of their, I mean, we'll get into it, but like all of their interviews are like that. Like, they have like no magic dream poppiness to them as people. Like, they're just real like, and what? I don't know where you're talking about. Right. Why are you asking me this question?

This question is stupid. Like, I think they were like actually like, like, legendarily and difficult to interview and sort of like never wanted to talk to press. Just because you talk quietly or find it difficult to talk about yourself. Oh, yeah. They were extremely introverted, extremely. like press wary and this is kind of the most interesting and sort of main

contradiction with the band throughout their career is like even back in the early days like Robin has talked about how as soon as he started getting into guitar pedals and like effects like that he really wanted to kind of make his own version

of Phil Spector pop so like do what Phil Spectre did but like create 2,000% more reverse or whatever. So it's like they had these pop ambitions, but they were just so afraid of stardom or so like... No choruses at all.

No chorus? Well, yeah, no... Well, it's like the first few albums, there's no bridges. And part of the reason why Heaven or Las Vegas stands out is like you get all these bridges and like suddenly you're like, oh, this is what's been missing the whole time

is like an actual pop structure. Just vibes. The Cockprens for 20 years, basically, or 15 years. Basically. Yeah. I guess we should say they took their name from a simple mind song. But I think that song later changed its name for some reason, but it was initially called Cocto Twins.

It was very niche. Like, it was one other band in Scotland that they were like, oh, this has a cool name. We'll call ourselves Cocto Twins. And I think many people have this kind of misconception. I thought the name was because there were two singers when I first got into the band. Because if you listen to some of their tracks, like it sounds like it sounds like. like there are two people singing, but really they were just multi-tracking Liz's voice. So it sounds like multiple people.

Fun fact, they did actually have one other female vocalist for all of two weeks at the start of the band. Liz had a friend named Carol, who she would bring in to the vocal recording sessions. And for whatever reason, Carol didn't last. But they dedicated the first album to her. You know why? because Carol wanted to sing in English words that were known to people. And they were like, we don't do that around here, babe, you need to go. Yeah.

I like the story that Robin, who, you know, sounds like probably the driving force of the band, by all accounts. Like, you know, I think Elizabeth Frazier left her own devices would be, like, meandering around, like, a field holding, like, a stuffed animal and, like, thinking about the moon or whatever. But he, like, I guess, like, pushed his way backstage at, like, a birthday party. show? Did you read this? And he befriended the drummer, and the drummer is the one that got them signed to 4 AD. Yeah, so they, they were, I mean, there were these punk hits who were going to, like, their favorite band shows all the time. So, like, they became regular roadies for the birthday party. And, yeah, I've heard stories where, like, either Robin pushed his way backstage, or they just, like, became good enough friends with the band to where they were like, oh, so, you know our label 4AD,

they're like looking for more people. You should like go meet up with Ivo and like hand him your cassette. Totally. It was Phil Calvert. Sorry. I don't want to obscure. Yeah. Erase Phil Calvert's name.

Phil Calvert of the birthday morning. Yes. Please go ahead. So yeah, eventually they get a cassette into the hands of Ivo Watts Russell. I believe his name is Ivo, not Evo. I think it's Ivo. I think it's Ivo. So they get they get the cassette into the hands of Ivo Watts Russell who,

at the time was the head of 4 AD he was the co-founder but it was still pretty small label at the time so he was actually like working at a record shop while this was all going on so they like just walk into the record store ask where Ivo is the guy

behind the counterpoints to him they hand him this cassette and just leave and don't give any explanation but he liked the music so much that he called them back and yeah he was so impressed ultimately that he was like you know know what, you don't even have to do an EP, just like go straight to the album. So then they came out

with Garlands, which was their first album. I love that. I will tell you, if record stores still existed, I would also still work at a record store in conjunction with whatever other job I had, because it's the best job in the world. Sorry, teens, you'll never know. Garlands. Let's talk about Garlands. Garlands is produced. I think that's the only Cocktoe Twins album. that, no, there's two that are produced not, like, just by them. Like, this one is produced by them and Ivo. And I think the next one, they don't, they didn't like it. All was produced by somebody else, but we'll get there.

We have some real words on this album. Mm-hmm. We have, we have Elizabeth using some real words, right? Yeah. So, I mean, I guess we could talk about this now where, like, Liz was very self-conscious, not only of her singing, but just. Of her thoughts. Yeah.

Yeah, her thoughts. Like being like a front woman in general. And like she kind of came up with this idea of like it gets even crazier on future albums, as we'll see. But she was like, you know what? Like why don't I just kind of make these abstract poetic lyrics that kind of obscure my own thoughts and just sound good? Because what would happen was Robin and Will would write the music first and then take to Liz. And if Liz liked it, she would write music to her. write lyrics to it. And so she would, she would actually write down lyrics, like she had composed

lyrics for each song, but then she would look them over and be like, oh, this is so embarrassing. Like these are all like nonsense phrases. I don't want anyone to actually see this. So she would record and then they wouldn't even print the lyrics like on the liner notes of the album. No, they would not. Yeah. And so you have like this woman singing in like a thing. Scottish accent, you know, adding syllables, taking syllables away, like doing all these weird, like trilling effects with her voice. So it became impossible to tell what she was even singing and people weren't even sure. Yeah, people were even sure she was singing English. And so then, yeah, you get these like witchy incantations on garlands. That's kind of why I think of when I

listen to it. It just sounds like someone is like casting a spell. It's super witchy. And I think I read an interview where she was like actually like deep. in the study of witchcraft and like reading a bunch of books about witchcraft and that's why it's so witchy. Like actually the obscure lyrics that we can't totally understand are all kind of referencing these witchcraft books. I saw that this album critically the like one main through line was that people were like, uh, it sounds too much like Susie and the Banjays. Like they're trying to be Susie and the banshees. And I'm part of the problem. The song I like best on here sounds like Susie and The Banshees, Wax and Wain. I really like that song. But what's a song that you think on here

that doesn't sound like Susie and the Banchise and maybe is like more indicative of like the DNA of this band kind of forming and like what will, you know, eventually sort of indoor throughout their career? I mean, it's hard to say because I think the tricky part about this album is that everything is in a minor key, which you realize later like every other Cacto Twins album has like some other kind of brighter sounding song to it like even the next one head over heels has sugar hiccup

which is like kind of indicative of what they would later sound like this one is just kind of its own thing in my mind but I think the one Is it Blind Dumb Death? That's what you should have. Blind Dumb Death is the one I always think of as kind of hinting towards what they would eventually become it's definitely still

in that what would later be known as like goth rock sensibility. But it is like to me that is the standout from the album.

Okay. Let's hear Blind Dumb Deaf off Carlins. You are listening to a music and talk episode where full songs

and talk segments live together in gorgeous harmony only on Spotify. Guess what? You can also create your own music and talk show

for free with Anchor Spotify's podcasting platform. Get started at anchor.fm slash music and talk. That's anchor.com slash music and talk. That was Blind, dumb, deaf. It's a good song.

Yeah. It goes. It goes. It slaps. I don't know if it slaps, but it goes. It's pretty meandering, but I like it, you know? Yeah. Honestly, even that sounds a little bit like Susie and the band.

She has no shade to the cocktail twins. But you know what? When your first album, you're always going to sound a little bit like someone else. Apparently she had a bunch of Susie in the band. She has tattoos to Elizabeth Frazier. That didn't help the mythology. Also, the cover art was originally intended for the screen. So they really, I mean, it was hard to escape.

And I don't blame the fact that they were pretty upset by it. But also, like, you know, when you're doing a Gothic dance album with, like, you know, drum machines and a very kind of witchy vibe, it's what you're going to get in 1982. too. Yeah. When I first did this podcast, it sounded like Mark Marys. We're all doing our best. And we find our own voice and we go forward. So we talked a little bit that I think, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong or if you know anything further, but like the most I could dig up around reception, like critical reception was like, it wasn't a huge reception. You know, they weren't that, again, like you point out, 480 wasn't what they are now. It's not like, you know, everyone bowed

their feet and was like waiting for what they put out, although they were already like a pretty cult iconic label. But I think they only kind of got written up in like local British press, like NME, maybe melody maker and stuff. And it was like, okay. It was all right. Yeah, definitely this album and kind of for the next few albums, they were sort of only paid attention to in Britain and really only to people who followed the independent charts. But one thing they did manage to get with this album was John Peel's support, which would prove to be very, very helpful in the long run. He became kind of an early champion for the Cotto Twins as this, like, very unique rock band and kind of the most interesting people coming out of 4-8 at the time.

Absolutely. Shout out the god, John Peel, truly has exceptional taste. Tends to favor female singers, which I love much like Chris Black. Shout out Chris Black, former guest of this show who has made the blanket statement that he just likes female singers. Yeah, I think I read that John Peel, like, played the album in its entirety on his show, right? I think that was the next one. The next one. Honestly, he might have. Like, he was, like, when he loved an album, he really, like, wanted everyone to hear every single song.

But, yeah, he was, you know, an early champion. I also read, I read that Robin was kind of surprised by the success, especially because he was personally not very happy with how. the album turned out. He thought the recording was subpar. He, you know, was very kind of thorny towards journalists, even that early on, who would kind of ask them about their sudden success. You know, we're not actors. Really, we're just trying to put the music across, because that's what's important, not three individual performers. Like, oh my God, like, how can we possibly be pop stars? We're just like some Scottish guys from the boonies. Like, You know, we're not, like, art school material.

Like, why are you paying attention to us? Like, he kind of had those insecurities himself. And very quickly, it started to kind of rub off on the press junkets and all the interviews that they were doing for the album at the time. Totally. So the next album, Peppermint Pig, is not an album. It's an EP. Because this band fucking loves to put out EPs. Yeah.

Which I think probably speaks to, like, the volume of output that they have, because They just make a lot of songs. They do. And actually, this wasn't even the first one they did after Garland. They did the Lullaby's EP, which was just like three songs. That also got promoted by John Peel. He put every, he put all three tracks on his, like, listeners poll at the end of the year. But yeah, then Ivo was like, okay, guys, you know, the album's great, the EP is great.

Can we please have, like, a good single that will, like, go to the top of the top of the charts. And so he kind of pressured them, which is like, of course, they're like, uh, we're not that band, you know? So he brings in this pop producer, Alan Rankine, and kind of forces the band to make this song called Peppermint Pig, which I personally love Peppermint Pig. I know a lot of Cocktoe twin fans are kind of like, eh, about it. But it is like the furthest, it's like the closest they get to like a Sisters of Mercy song or like a full-on, like dance, like Gothic dance track. And it's kind of this like oddity in their

catalog that I really, really like. Yeah, I like it too. And I think like while like I'm sure again, they never had a producer again after this, but like, you know, the dude, Alan Rankin was from that band The Associates. Like this pretty cool pop post-punk band that kind of like then

meandered into making more pop music. And I feel like he had a good sensibility, but it just wasn't their sensibility. Yeah. And it was a success. You know, like Blue Monday was the only song that, was higher than peppermint pig on the pop charts, which like, you know, good for them for almost beating out Blue Monday. Yeah, let's hear.

Should we hear peppermint pig just to hear like what the alternate universe of what could have happened or what did happen and could have kept happening if Cockto Twins went pop? Yeah, let's do it. Okay. This is peppermint pig. That was peppermint pig. Sounds like a cartoon for children. Is not.

It is a goth, uh, pop dance song. by the Cocktouchins from 1983. They hated it, like you said. So the same year, they put out another album. Yes. I'm only assuming, speculating that maybe they were like, let's wash the taste out of this out of our mouths and just like run to the studio and record like something way more palatable to us.

And also, which you sort of mentioned earlier, Will Heggy leaves the band before this next album. Yeah. So they had done so much touring in the past year before head over heels came out. And there's conflicting reports of why Will left. Robin says that it was Will's choice, that he got burnt up from touring. Ivo claims that Robin and Liz kicked him out of the band. Either way, he left the band.

And of course, at this point in time, Robin and Liz were, like, using speed and all kinds of drugs on the daily. and we're just like, you know, hard at work touring and like, you know, were incredibly productive when it came to coming up with new music ideas. So they were just like, you know what? Let's just make an album, the two of us, make an album and see what happens. And so then they came up with head over heels, which is really the first time that they kind of formed their own musical identity and where you really start to hear the cocto twins become the cocto twins is through this album. Yeah, maybe we needed Will to leave. Who can say why? Head Over Heels allegedly is mostly love songs?

Yeah, I mean, if you look at the... It is called Head Over Heels. It is called Head Over Heels. They record this album, I believe, in the time before they got engaged. So they were kind of like influenced by that and in that headspace. If you do look at the lyrics, like it does, you know, some of the words that Liz chooses kind of hint towards love, but like it's very, you know, it's still very abstract. I think you get most of it through the sound of the album, which is still very Gothic, but

it's really where Robin starts to let loose with the reverb and really starts to create this, like, atmospheric quality to the music. Like, the production value was so much higher than it was in Garlands. It's like night and day. And you can really hear it, especially on Sugar Hiccup, which was the lead single and kind of what would become. their signature sound with, you know, these sort of soaring guitars and Liz's vocals, which, by the way, Liz was only like 19 when she recorded that, which is still insane to me. Like, she used, like, such control over her voice even at that point. And it was just, like, her voice is, like, soaring into the heavens.

Yeah, I mean, it's an incredible song and incredible that, like, they managed to make that leap from Garland's to this album. I have to say, once again, I'm part of the problem here because there is, like, still one song here that sounds like Susie and the Banshees, and that's the one I like. Wait, which one? Multi-foiled. I feel like you could say multi-fold still has the... Oh my God.

Yeah, a little bit. What do you think? Like, I hear that song is like a weird Gothic cabaret song. Do you get that vibe? Kind of. It's like the swingingness to it. Yeah. I know.

I like it. But it definitely does sound a little bit like that. There's a lot of their songs where like you can like, and I'm interested to hear your professional music. opinion on this because I'm simply an idiot. But that they sound like there's like whispers of like a 50s R&B song underneath or like, you know, like structurally or like there's just like these vibes that I'm picking up that I'm like, oh, you just simply like esconsed this thing in like 4,000 layers of like gossamer and whispers and fake words and made it into this new thing. But like

you could almost hear like the skeleton of like very familiar things. Yeah. And that's really what would become the band's trademark. And you can, yeah, you can pick up these pop structures starting to take form underneath all the effects pedals. I also, I mean, I really love the closer on this album. It's called musette and drums. And it's like a full on arena rock song, which like you find that from time to time with the Cacto twins. like they just sometimes actually let loose with the guitar.

But it's just, it's a thrill to listen to because it's like an arena rock song, like a hard rock punk song. But it's just like drenched in all this like effects and reverb and just like doesn't really sound of this world. I know, it's cool because it's like listening to different genres and music under a filter. Yeah, totally exactly under like the Cokto Twins filter. Yeah. Do you want to hear a song off this album?

Yeah, let's do Sugar Hickup. Okay, great. This is Sugar Hickup. That was Sugar Hickup, which you know because you can hear her say sugar hiccup a bunch of times and then some other words that are in there also. Yes. There's not much to it lyrically. It's mostly just a showcase for her vocals, which like kind of ballsy to do, honestly. Just like, you know what?

We're not going to write lyrics. We're just going to sound pretty and make it sound good. It's like both ballsy and like you said before, like she's really, from what all the like deep reading I did, like she's a very paranoid person and like kind of fearful in the sense of like she's like, I don't know. She just like didn't want people to know what she was thinking. And so like a lot of this like obscuring like we said earlier is like very deliberate. But yeah, it takes like a certain courage to be like, yeah, and that's all you're going to get. And if you don't like it, fuck off. You know, which I think was kind of their vibe always, which is interesting.

Like they didn't seem to have too much consideration about what are other people going to think of this. Like it was more like, does it reach our own standards? Yeah. There's this hilarious documentary they did during their time at 4 AD. It was like a short documentary about all the album art that 4A.D produced because they actually used a lot of the same artists for different albums. covers and it was kind of like a running joke that Robin was always upset by the album covers that they would do. And so they interviewed Robin and Liz for this documentary. And you think because they agreed to be on camera for this, that they're going to like say nice things about

the artists. And they just sort of like, yeah, no, we had no say in our albums. You know, we were kind of disappointed with the way that that one turned out. Oh, we thought that that one was kind of ugly. And they're just going off on camera. And, you know, that was kind of their vibe. That was definitely their vibe in every interview I read. It was simply like, here's the truth. I don't care what you think about it. Have a nice day. Yeah.

This album, like, this is the album. Sorry, I got it confused that John Peel played the whole thing on his show. And this one, they started to really get some, like, attention. For the first, like, almost decade, maybe like seven, six years of cocto twins, they were, like, regionally famous. Right? Like that was kind of the vibe. Like they slowly grew more and more well known in the UK. And like the UK as we know is like its own, especially back then, it's like its own musical ecosystem. Like it doesn't really care about outside and doesn't need it. And I asked my friend, Rob Fitzpatrick, shout out Rob Fitzpatrick, who is a Gen X British lad. And I asked him, I was like, were the like, were the Cocktoid twins famous when you, like in the early 80s? Like, you know, around all these albums. And he was like, they weren't famous, but they were beloved by the music magazine. So like, like we said, enemy, melody maker sounds, all this. And he was like, so if you were

like a person into music and you bought all these magazines, which he did, he was like, then they were very famous to you, like, because they covered them like every week, which is kind of cool. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was a, it was a scene for sure. And if like you were a part of that scene, which a lot of people in Britain at the time were, then, yeah, you were aware of who they were. but it wasn't like they were playing, you know, national sold-out crowds or touring outside of the UK at all. Or even, you know, they toured a bit in Europe, but like that's about it. That was as far as they went. It wasn't really until the late 80s when 480s started to branch out more into America.

Right. That cocto twins went with them. But it would be a while before that happened. Yeah, totally. I liked this thing that I think it was enemy said about this, the head over heels out. album. He says, Were the sound more thisiled, more thorny, Liz would be a proper mavis of the Moors,

but the warp and woof of the lass's warble is not one of the dulcet heather purity, but of how can I say it, dry ice? That is its mysterious charm. I was like, damn, that's cool. Yeah, it sounds like he's trying to write his own cocktoe twin song. Right? That comes up a lot.

Yeah, I feel like in a lot of the, like, I mean, I think like British music The Cress was also just always so fucking cool. And, like, they had a lot of latitude, especially in the 80s and 90s to, like, write in these really creative ways. Yeah. But you're totally right. Like, this language totally is, like, mimicking, like, a cocto twin song.

So what happens next, this mortal coil? Yeah, basically. They release another EP. It gets some attention from that. And Liz and Robin get engaged. And, yeah, then they join this mortal coil, or rather than. rather they get roped into this roll foil. Which was a music collective that Ivo put together,

like kind of like of all of his 4 AD people or a lot of them trying to make this like, I don't know, what do you call it? It's not really a super group because all the songs have like different amalgamations of musicians on them. It was very much a passion project for Ivo because the thing about Ivo was like he was so into, you know, all the bands that he signed on 4 AD were all these like post-punk, gothic rock, industrial rock, band. And yet the guy was super into folk music. Like, he loved Tim Buckley and like all these sort of older folk artists from the U.S. and Britain.

And he wanted to kind of make his inversions of those songs, but like he didn't have, he was like, I don't have the talent to do this. I want to like get other musicians to do it for me. I want to get the vocalists. I like to do it for me. And actually originally for This Mortal Coil, what ended up happening was he saw a show for Modern English, which is one in the bands that was on his label. They did the I'll Stop the World and Melt With You song.

He saw them live in concert and they mashed up two of their songs. And he was like, oh my God, that sounds amazing. Can you like do a studio version of that? And they were like, nope, we don't want to do a studio version of that. So I was like, okay, Liz Frazier, can you sing this song with Sidney Sharp, who was another person on the label. So they recorded their own version of the mashup. And he was like, oh, I can just do like a bunch of these where I like ask people who are

on my label to record songs that I want them to record. And so he starts gathering up people to record different songs for this compilation, essentially, for this mortal coil. And he chooses the song called Song to the Siren, which is a lot. an old Tim Buckley song that Tim Buckley wrote back in 1968 or something like that. Touch me not. Come back tomorrow. And he asks Liz to sing it. And originally he's like, okay, I want Liz to sing at Acapella because I just want to showcase her voice. But Robin tagged along with Liz to the studio that day. And I was like, you know, I don't really like

the Acapella sound. So he gets Robin to play this like very spare good. guitar part on it. And so they record the cover and ends up on the album. But even before that, it was released as a single and it blows up. Like it becomes the biggest thing that the cocter twins have ever done, except it's not under the cocter twins name. It's under this mortal coil. And so people don't even necessarily know that's them, even though it's literally just

the two cocktail twins who are performing it. Totally. I mean, you know what? Who can say? but I bet you they liked it better that way. Yeah. Well, I mean, they did until it came to the royalties, which Robin did not receive any royalties for that song,

and he was very upset about that. Which, like, I get that. He got fucked over, you know? Yeah, that's rude. But, yeah, that was, for a while, that was, like, their biggest single ever was song to the siren. Yeah, it's really good. Should we hear it?

Because I think it's kind of, like, an important song in the, like, Cocktoe Twins canon. Totally. Yeah, let's hear it. All right. This is Song to the Siren, Cockto Twins version slash This Mortal Coil. That was Song To The Siren. It's really beautiful.

She does really have such like a stunning voice. Yeah. It's really chilling. And yeah, just learning that it was her too, because I came to this song kind of independently of Cockto Twins. And my first thought was like, oh, it kind of sounds like Julie Cruz from David Lynch, which funny that that connection is there too. That's Robin Guthrie's favorite film director, David Lynch.

I read it in a interview. Do you know the story about Song to the Siren and David Lynch? No. Do go on. Oh, my God. Wow. Okay. So David Lynch loves their version of Song to the Siren because, so this song, you know,

was a huge hit on the British Independent charts and eventually it made its way over to America. So enough people in America had heard it that David Lynch was aware of the single and was like, oh my God, this is an amazing song. I want to use it in blue velvet. And not only did he want to use it in blue velvet, but he had this whole concept of the opening scene of the movie being this like prom scene. And he wanted the cocteau twins to appear on stage at the prom scene and perform the song live. Oh, that would have been so cool. Which would have been so cool. And the thing is the band was actually down to do.

do it, which is surprising because this is like not at all their thing, like appearing in a movie that's like, you know, kind of shocking. But what ended up happening was that Tim Buckley's estate asked for around like $20,000 for the rights to the song. And the film's budget was only $3 million. So David Lynch had to be like, no, we can't afford that. But it almost happened. And because it didn't happen, that's why they got Julie Cruz to do Mysteries of Love, because David Lynch was like, I want a song that's like song to the siren, but since we can't have it, we'll just make our own version of it. So there's like this alternate universe where like they could have been in Twin Peaks or like they could have been in blue velvet, which just

like blows my mind. That is really crazy because I, again, I mean, they must have known that. I'm not sure, but I did read an interview like a couple of years after this, like maybe like 89 where Robin does say that David Lynch is his favorite director in Blue Velvet is his favorite movie. Yeah. That's kind of hurt. I know. I wonder if that was just like a dig at the fact that like they couldn't appear in the movie. And David Lynch was like a bit of a nobody at the time.

It's like, oh, Blueville was going to be a terrible film. Of course, like when we turned it down, who is it? It turns out to be one of the greatest films. And there we are. Large egg on the face. I don't know. You're right. They were snarky, snarky Scottish.

Another, I think, important thing about this mortal coil besides these sort of maybe not positive things was that this is how they met Simon Raymond who joined the band as bassist and other instruments, right? It was like because he was in that band drowning craze and it was like kind of through some of the recordings of the project of this mortal coil that they met him. Yeah, he, so Simon actually knew Ivo too because they, at one point worked at the same record store. Simon was actually born in London. And what's interesting about him was that he is the son of Ivor Raymond, who was a producer of 60s pop hits. So Ivor Raymond produced for Dusty Springfield and the Walker brothers.

Simon has the story about like Scott Walker coming over to their house for tea every now and then, which is crazy. Wow. But yeah, Simon grew up in London and was like a punk kid in London. and also played in the orchestra in his high school and learned how to play the bass from his brother and was just like a very talented musician. But when the record store that he was working at closed,

Ivo came to him and was like, hey, I have a band on my label that's actually looking for a bass player because at that point, Liz and Robin have been performing together on their own for a little bit. And what was starting to happen was they would come on stage and they would have like this huge amount of dry ice that would like fog up the stage as they were like coming on and the crowd would get super excited. And then this and the fog would clear. And all that was standing there was like Liz Robin and the tape recorder that was playing the rest of the instruments.

And like they started to notice that the audience would get really disappointed and it started to like affect the band. Like Liz would leave the stage sobbing because she was like, oh my God, like they're so disappointed at us. So they were like, oh my God, we need to get like a live bass player because this dynamic just isn't working. So yeah, then they met up with Simon and he joined the band. I think he did add a lot. How do you feel about just like, it's like that like, you know, we talk about it a lot on this show. There's like often like a bit of a missing piece with a lot of groups. And then once that missing piece clicks into place, like it's like we're off for the races, you know.

And I feel like Simon might have been that bit of a missing piece for the Cocktoe Twins. Absolutely. Like he was a very dynamic bass player The first song they recorded with him Was this track called, I can never pronounce it, Millie Millinery And you can hear his kind of like slightly funky jazzy bass lines

Even in there Like he was pretty deliberate About the way that he played And he was also again like very talented Piano player He was a violinist Like he knew his way around many different instruments And I think definitely you can hear that

In the music that he and Robin composed together that there was just this kind of like extra element there that kind of set them apart. Totally. So it's EP time again. Yep. The Spangled Maker. I found it interesting. It is. Well, the EP is interesting. But I found it interesting that there's like, what, three songs on here? And you and I chose totally different songs. And I'm so, I want to hear, because I want to hear yours, but I'm just interested because I gravitated so much more towards the Spangle maker because I found it to be like so, I don't know, there's just like there's so much like

tension and then like release in it that like found it so enjoyable to listen to. It is kind of long. Well, yeah, if I'm being honest, like I would have chosen both. I didn't realize I could choose both. But I chose pearly dew drops because it's kind of the big single that the band has, like even more so than song to the siren, like this was kind of their breakout single. But I think the Spanglemaker as a song is equally important because, again, as you were saying, like the kind of tension that's within it, the fact that starts off really softly and then kind of builds into this sort of crescendo with Liz singing. That would later be used on several songs that the band would do.

That kind of became the staple of like all the album closers that they would do from here on out would be this kind of like soft and then loud, you know, songs. The Spangomaker was kind of beginning of that. And I think it is, I mean, I love that song. It's such a good buildup and release. It's really, I mean, it's really skilled songwriting, honestly. I mean, they're both really good. So I defer to you on which song you want here.

Yeah, let's do The Spangle Maker because I feel like I love pearly dewdrops, but I will admit it does sound a lot like sugar hiccup, just like slightly popier. And I think that's why I did so well. But let's hear The Spangle Maker, because I feel like you kind of need to listen to the whole thing to really get why it's such a good track. Okay. This is The Spangle Maker. That was The Spangled Maker. I love that song.

Goddamn, gorgeous, glorious, beautiful song. It's so cool. I just noticed this now, but, like, when she is singing Broken Winded, it kind of reminds me of, like, it's got, like, a Haley Williams vibe to it, like, almost the way that she's singing it. Well, we've talked about this on this show, and I'm glad that you are like inadvertently backing me up, where I find that pop punk vocalists tend to sing in like a faux British accent by accident often. And I think that's what maybe we're hearing because like that's the, where are you? Where are you? Anyways, this EP gets like, I'll say like mixed reviews only because NME, which the review is like four lines long,

but it's so fucking funny that I have to read it out loud by a. man named Tony Parsons. He did not like it. In the cocktoe twin scheme of things, putting on a black dress and looking pained equals a cosmic piaf. A plotting torturous dirge equals a mark of sensitivity. Screeching like a doolally fishwife equals passion. I don't know what duly means. These precious little people are one of the finest arguments I've ever heard for bringing back the national service. Oh my God. I know rude. He literally called them, he called them sensitive snowflakes. He did and do Lally Fishwives. But it's funny.

There's like an editor's note at the bottom and it just says, Ouch, it's still charted and sold thousands of copies. So pretty funny. Yeah. They have a lot of albums. The Cocktoe Twins made a lot of albums. Too many albums. I mean, you know, this is their passion.

Also, like, it's worth pointing out that, like, while we're, like, have been talking about their output for a while, they're still like only like 24 or something. They've only been around as a band for three years at this point. Yeah, so like not even 24. Because I think Robin was like, what, 19 when they started or 20? Yeah, Robin Liz was 19 or 20. Liz was 17.

So they're like truly, they're still babies, you know? Yeah, I was 19, Liz was 17 when we made garlands. That's pretty young, you know. We're very naive because we're from a small time. But together, we thought we could do something. Treasure is their third full-length? Yes, Treasurer's their third full-length album. In 1984.

And they did have, like, I mean, this is not uncommon of this time period, because this is just kind of how people put out albums. I've been like you were kind of expected to put out at least one a year. But they, you know, they put out one a year plus a bunch of EPs. I like the fun fact about Treasure, which I'm sure you are also known in your 20 pages of notes. Notes, Dule, that Ivo tried to hire D. Daniel Lanwa and Brian Eno to produce this.

And they had already done the unforgettable fire by U2, which came out a month before this. So they wouldn't have known how well it was going to do. But U2 was a big band by then. And Brian Eno was like, I don't think they need me. And so they didn't do it. Well, supposedly Robin was like openly hostile to EO kind of, you know, like arms cross. Like, oh, you know, we don't really need another producer.

It's like not necessary. And Nina was like, okay, I'm not going to fight you on that. Right. He was like, I'm busy counting my YouTube money. They put a, maybe as a consolation prize, they put a song and named it after Ivo. They did. They did. The first song on the album, which is sweet.

I do also think the reason why they, like, went immediately back into the studio to record treasure is because, again, like you were saying with peppermint pig, they kind of wanted to, like, wash their hands off of the, like, commercial single. they were getting already so sick of pearly do drops drops because they were performing at like every single concerts and they were going on like top of the pops and they had like a you know popular m tv video that was for the well they actually didn't ever go on top of the pops they were asked many times they were and by i think in the early 80s i found i'm only correct you because i think that's a huge implication to what they were like like top of the pops was massive And they were asked more than once to go on and they were like, no. Which is like people didn't say no to Top of the Pops in the UK. So like that to me was like a stunning, just like, again, to like your earlier point about like bravery. They're just like really a band that has to be exactly the way they want to be.

And it didn't seem like they were like that interested in fame. Like they were definitely interested in making quality music and having people hear it. I don't think they were interested in. And they, like, openly deride at Top of the Pops. They're like, oh, we're supposed to go on there and, like, dance around, like, Prats. Like, they thought it was stupid, you know, which is, like, kind of funny. Like, there are bands that, you know, they find it very comfortable to get up on top of the pops and prance about, you know, whatever. That may be a bit, you know, negative, but whatever, or do a show with flashing lights and that kind of thing.

Yeah, no, you're right. They didn't, and they did, yeah, I remember that quote because they appeared on. a lot of like smaller performance shows. Like they would go on Channel 4. First of all, they went on this show called the Tube. And they were asked to play doodrops. And they played like two deep cuts from their prior albums just to like piss them off. Gorgeous.

And yeah, if you watch any of the live performances or televised performances that they did manage to do, like they just kind of stand there. They don't really engage with the audience. They're like, you know, Robin is like barely moving his hand as he's playing the guitar. Like, they're really not trying to be, they're not trying to showboat at all, which just goes to show, like, they were not fans of doing that kind of, like, circus, like the media circus. Totally. Okay. I see you've chosen it, so we should talk about it. Lorelei.

Lorelei is a horny song. Yes or no? Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it's like song to the siren in part two, except instead of being, like, tragic and sad, it's, like, talking about, like, fucking a sea monster basically. I mean, decades prior to, oh my God, producer Dylan,

what is the movie about fucking the fish where the woman fucks the fish? You know it, we all know it. We all know the movie where the woman fucks the fish. The Guillermo del Toro. Oh, my God. The fish was hot. The fish man was hot.

We all had to admit that he was a hot fish man and we too would have fucked him. What was the movie called? Shape of water. The shape of water. So again, decades before the shape of water, this woman was talking about having sex with a fish man, monster. Or a fish woman. Or a fish woman.

We can't know. Let's not put our heteronormative lens. All right. Let's hear Lorelei. That was Lorelei. Producer Dylan has said, do Lally Fishwife indeed. And I must say that is a good one. Good on you, producer Dylan.

That is very funny. This album is cool. I like that Elizabeth, who we haven't really mentioned, but Elizabeth pretty much names everything. That's like one of her chief roles in the band. And she named every song after a woman. Yeah, except for Ivo. Except for Ivo.

And not a real woman, just lady names that she liked. Yeah. Yeah, it's cool. It's almost a return to the witchiness of Garlands, except instead of Garland's being all like Gothic and kind of, you know, sharp. This one is much more like a spring kind of bewitchment. Like I think of like nymphs running in the forest or like. Or fish monsters having sex.

Or fish, fucking fish monsters or like medieval fairy tales that are like vaguely horny. Like that's kind of the vibe of treasure. This is D&D core for sure. Yes. It's, you know, it's time to talk about it. How much have you thought of Enya while, because I thought of Enya like a thousand times while I was like researching and listening because like they live in a parallel universe. Like I think Cockto Twins has more in common with Enya than like they do with like the birthday party for example, which was one of their chief inspirations. Yeah.

I mean, we'll get to it. But like they recorded this ambient album that's very in line with Anya. And later, way later in her career, I mean, Liz Frazier did songs for. the Lord of the Rings. Like, she's on that soundtrack with Enya. Like, they're definitely contemporaries for each other. Totally. I really like, just so that I can go on record by saying it, Persephone, it slaps. You can not say it doesn't slap. Oh, my God. It slaps so hard. And then Pandora, in parentheses for Cindy, that's one of the songs that, to me, sounded like, such like, it sounds like an R&B song, but like underwater with the fish. It's a fish sex song.

It's a fish-sex R&B song. Yeah, quite a few of them do have that kind of R&B sound to them. And Pandora especially, that's when Liz really decided, and this album in general, but Pandora is kind of the epitome of it. This album was when she really decided, you know what, I don't even have to use English words. I can just use sounds. And it will be great. English has left the building, people.

Yeah. Yeah. We are simply channeling, I don't know. feelings. Just vibes. No English, just vibes. Yeah, I mean, she, but she was so meticulous about it, too. Like, there are stories of her pulling apart, like, language dictionaries and encyclopedia, like, like, science encyclopedia, and just, like, pulling out random words that she liked and mixing it in with actual English phrases. And again, like, taking away or adding in syllables that, like, didn't need to be there, just to make it sound the way that she wanted to sound.

Queen shit. Yeah. Pandora's like you listen to and you're like, how do you even like memorize all of that? Like how do you memorize where you're going to put each of these sounds? It's funny that you bring that up because that comes up later where because they stop touring or like they slow down their touring at some point. And later Elizabeth Frazier says that part of it was because it was massively difficult for her to remember the lyrics and where they went because they were nonsensical or whatever. To her they made sense. So I don't want to say that. She's gone on record many times being like, yeah, they don't make sense to you.

But to me, it's all very deliberate. But it still was like a lot more difficult to remember them. And I think she felt a lot of pressure trying to like perform these songs that have just vibes and know English. Yeah. And people think to this day still that she like improvises the sounds. No, she like like one of the reasons why she does this too is like the, you know, they have to multi-drake her voice. And Robin has said, too, like, how do you think we multitracked her voice? She had to sing the same thing every time so that we can get all these takes and, you know, mesh her voice together.

Like, it wouldn't work if she was a perfectionist. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, it's very interesting. They did a really good interview with NME around this time, which is, like, one of their more crotchety. Like, the guy, like, spent seven hours with them and just, like, basically gets to nowhere and no answers. And there's one, I just think it's funny because, like, I think, they're genuine, like Guthrie says, why do people want to understand it? Why can't they just listen? And I think he, like, really means it. He's, like, very perplexed by why people want to

understand the music. Yeah, like, there was this one Liz quote I've read that she's like, you know, why would you take away your own interpretation of the music? Why do you want me to tell you what it is? Because then you won't get to have your own meaning of the song, right? Can you just tell us what those words are again? You just run through them again? Can Kim Macalachalach? I'll like so long with you. co-cola full on your neck. How do you remember that? I mean, when you get out there to sing.

They do. And the melody, you know, you just remember the melody. Right. And I don't know. I just do. Well, bitch, let me be honest. Okay, Liz, I hear you. But me personally, I just need a little few words to hang my hat on to just even get in there.

Okay? Like, how much imagination do you think I have? I just need a few things, a few words. May I have a few words as a treat? she said, no, you can't have any words as a truth. Wait, can I share a story about treasure that I forgot to include? Yes, absolutely. Okay, so the thing about Treasure 2 is that Robert Smith of The Cure loves that album.

And in one interview, he talks about how he played it while he was getting dressed for his wedding day because he thinks it's the most romantic album of all time. Oh, my God, huge praise. I know. Huge endorsement for that album. This album, the people have spoken and they love it. Melody Maker loves it.

NME loves it. They're getting covered. They're on the covers. Like, I think in the Melody Maker review, the last line is surely this band is the voice of God. Yes.

That's where the voice of God term was coined with that review. So just some light praise coming from the press. Then what happens, Claire? A bunch of EPs. A bunch of VPs. And it's also important to note during this time

that Robin and Ivo's friendship is, like, starting to deteriorate. The band is starting to not be on good terms with their label. In part, it's because of all the stuff that happened with this mortal coil. Basically, Robin, when he did song to the siren, he was only credited as a session musician instead of, like, a main collaborator, which meant you didn't get royalties on the song. So that was, you know, that caused a riff. The band was also in all these very antiquated contracts.

And this goes not just for Coptor twins, but basically everyone on 4 AD at the time where they just weren't getting their money's worth out of sales. And on top of that, the band was still very resentful over kind of this Gothic label that had been sort of pasted onto them because they never thought of themselves as like a Gothic band, which like guys have you listened to your music. But like they kind of blamed the fact that like they always were saddled with this like album artwork that was very dark.

And like they were resentful of the fact that Ivo was starting to become a celebrity himself. And so he was acting more as an entertainer and not an actual label head. So you start to get these like kind of riffs between them and 4 AD. Yeah. That's funny that you say that because there's like a really funny quote that I noted down from Robin. It came later, but it still applies where he. He was like, yeah, if because we're on 4 AD, some little goth somewhere can take pleasure from listening to our record, who am I to say you can't do that? You can't pick your audience, can you?

So it sounds like he doesn't have a lot of esteem for his audience. But yeah. But yeah, then they come up with a bunch of EPs. This band loves an EP. They love so many EP's. Yeah, I mean, the 1985 to 1986, they basically come up with like seven records, like between the EPs and the albums that they do. They're just like on a roll releasing different things. They do the IKEA Guinea EP.

I think that's how you pronounce it. And that one, this one, it starts to get really complicated with some of these EP titles. But that one was like they had a bunch of live staples that were on that EP. They do another pair of EPs that are much more ambient. Is that tiny dynamite and echoes in a shallow bay? Yeah, that's those ones. And those ones tend to be kind of looked over because there's not really like a standout track on them.

Right. It seems like it was like eight songs that they left off of Treasure. And so they wanted to put it somewhere. So they put it in these two EPs. Yeah. Although I don't know if they had recorded them during Treasure or if they just had these like snippets of songs and they were like, okay, we're going to like make our own thing out of this.

Yeah, that's possible. Also says that they recorded them to test the production capacities of a new studio. Yes, they were building a home studio at Robin's house, although I don't know if they ever actually ended up using it to record anything, maybe for Bluebell Noll. It's funny because they spent, you hear about them spending so much time on the studio, but there's never like a big moment where they just like permanently move there. Yeah. But yeah, during this time, they were like making their own home studio. And then Simon decided to work on the next album with this. mortal coil. He was like playing bass on a couple of tracks. Right. So Robin and Liz

decides to make their own album called Victoria Land, which is like an acoustic, in quotes, acoustic album. I love Victoria Land and like, again, kind of counter to what I said earlier about Simon being the magic ingredient, then also remove Simon. There's this like wonder, because it's, this album, I think you can say it's Enya Core. There's something just magical that happens when it's like they kind of scale it down and and make it a bit more spare and pretty is a good word. And I like the whole thing is taken, I guess, as an inspiration from what is that man who did the Nature Channel program? David Attenborough. It's a barmecle. That's right. Yes. So all the song titles and all that is like taken from a David Attenborough special.

So that's why they're all called like, you know, whales tales and stuff like that. It's a special on Antarctica, I think. So they were like very much inspired by the landscape of Antarctica. So it's almost a bit like a Bjork album. You know, it's the Cockto Twins doing Bjork. I love it too because they brought in a saxophonist who shows up on a couple of tracks. And it's just like it's just like a little bit different than anything that they were doing before. And it's, yeah, it's a really cool.

experiment in their catalog. Should we hear Little Spacey? Do you like Little Spacey? I like Little Spacey. I also like Whales Tales. They're all great. I would go either way. Yeah.

Okay. Let's do Little Spacey, a song named after me. This is Little Spacey. That was Little Spacey. I like it. It's a fun little romp. It's kind of cute. Like the melody is like, da, da, da, da.

Like, it's nice. It's cute. It's a cute little song. Melody Maker loved it. You would be surprised to know. They were huge fans. Huge fans. Again, back to my question of the fame.

I love this idea that they're just music press in the UK famous at this point. Like, that's it. But they're, you know, they're charting on the UK album charts and they're like, I would assume doing pretty well. The fact that they didn't have a proper cocto twins album. as most people kind of comprehended that to be. Right. It didn't really hurt them. People were still very fond of the band.

And also, they were touring during this time. Yes. So they were still, you know, getting themselves out there and people were still going to their shows, you know, following them along. They had a fan base. But again, with Victoria Land and a bunch of the stuff that they were doing at this time, they were starting to branch out into other sounds. One of the other things they did is my favorite release for. from this era, which is called Love's Easy Tears, which is like, kind of the culmination of Robin's idea to do, like, Phil Spector,

but, like, 2,000% more reverb. Like, that is what the CP is. You know, it's, it's kind of similar to, like, what Jesus and Mary Chain would do eventually, which is just, like, take this, like, you know, like the rennets or whatever and just, like, drown it in so much sound that you can barely tell what's actually going on. Yeah, that's a really good.

comparison to draw. Cocktoe Twins, one thing about them is like they were so early, you know, in doing what they were doing. Like Jesus and Mary Chain also, I think, formed in like 83, I want to say, but they didn't put out meaningful, like they didn't put out psycho candy, which I think was like, you could argue, I think it really is the first release or the first meaningful release until 1985. So they're not, they're not influencing Cocktoe Twins. Like that's not, I'm not, anything probably the other way around. The other bands that, you know, get lumped into this by Bloody Valentine, obviously, like they don't put out their first album to 1988.

Galaxy 500, also the same, not until 1988. So, like, they're really pioneering this dream pop sound. And I wanted to take this time to ask you before we hear Love Zeezy Tears, because I think it's a good place to place the question. Claire, what is the difference between Dream Pop and Shoegays? Oh, God, that's scary. That's like the million pedal question. Is there a difference?

Like, are they just words? They are just words. I think it also just comes down to timing. Like, I think most people consider my Blay Valentine to be like the birth of shoegays, right? Like, what they did on Lovelace is like the start of shoegaze. But of course they were preceded by cocto twins. Yes.

But it's also confusing because, like, what Cocktoe Twins were doing is not exactly what My Bloody Valentine were doing. Like, yes, they were doing reverb, but they were creating entirely different identities of music with that reverb. Cocktoe Twins was, like, more ethereal, I think, than My Bloody Valentine. And no one can maybe argue with that. But it is a weird distinction because it's, like, kind of, like, splitting hairs a little bit. A little bit. And I think, especially when you get to bands, like, slow dive. Like, they're really combining the two concepts.

And I think nowadays, like, if you come up with a band that's, like, inspired by Dream Pop or Shugays, like, that tends to kind of mean the same thing. Oh, you mean? If you threw a rock, you mean? And you came across a band that was inspired by Shugays in this, your Lord, 2021? I mean, it's so ubiquitous, right? Totally. Like, they were so influential in that way. Why don't we hear Love Zee Tiers?

because I think, you know, we'll drive home our point of ethereal dream pop, maestro's, coctot twins. That was, Love's Easy Tears without knowing literally anything about regional Scottish music. I'm getting regional Scottish influences. Really? I don't know. A Scottish vibe. It has a Scottish vibe too. Hagis feel.

Yeah. I guess it kind of sounds like bagpipes, whatever the effect they're using on the pedals. But, I mean, I always hear Be My Baby and the song because of the drumbeat. Like, it always reminds me of the opening to be by my baby. I didn't again, Claire, as they would say in Scotland. I don't want to gloss over, not that you were going to. I'm not accusing you of anything. But only because I really, this was like something that was a discovery in the last couple of days

through this research that, who, I just love, which is the Harold Bud album. the moon and the melodies, although now it's just listed as a coxter twins album, which is kind of funny. But it was, you know, initially Harold Budd, who was an American minimalist composer and pianist, and it's just featuring Elizabeth Frazier, Robin Guthrie, and Simon Raymond. Like, they weren't, they weren't named as cocto twins. I love this album. How beautiful. It's gorgeous. And yeah, they did kind of wanted, they kind of wanted to separate it from their main output is like a separate thing.

Originally, it was actually going to be a television soundtrack because Channel 4 had this idea to bring different artists from different backgrounds together and kind of have them meet up and collaborate. The television series never ended up happening, but they were like, yeah, well, I mean, we'll still make the album. And it's, yeah, it's really cool. It's really, yeah, it's this, like, minimalist electronic, you know, like Liz is only on a couple of the tracks.

It's mostly just like, yeah. Yeah. It's mostly just like them, yeah, just like messing around with different instruments in the studio, messing around with different sense. And it's really cool to hear. Yeah, I love C-Swallow Me on this album. Yeah. It's so. It's gorgeous. So good. We don't have to listen to it in its whole bit. I'll just tell you, do yourself a favor. You know, if you need vibes, not that Cocktoe Twins isn't simply here to give you all sorts of vibes all throughout. But this is a gentle, gentle vibes. Cockto twins, you brought this up. They are beefing with 480D. Yeah. And I think the whole 4AD thing was blown out of all proportion. It got perceived as this sort of communistic ideal of, you know,

everybody looking after each other and, you know, the success of one benefit in the development of another. I just think that's rubbish at the end of the day. It doesn't work. 4 AD in 1985 does something good for them, which is they signed an agreement, well, not for them for themselves, but benefited cocto twins, signed an agreement with relativity records, which was like a distro. deal to get Cocktoe Twins music and 4-D music into the U.S. and other territories. Because I think before it was all imports.

So that starts to sort of like lay the groundwork for them getting much bigger. But the big thing, right, was in 1988, Capital Records signs them. This idea of someone at Capitol Records being like, yes, this band, no English, just vibes, fantastic. We need to let's fucking get them. Can't let those ones get away. Cash cow. It is a distro deal, but it's clearly a bit more than that because Capital is using resources and stuff. I have to guess because they start getting American press.

And they didn't get American press before. And that had to be, and not just little American press. We'll talk about it on the next album. But their next album is reviewed in People Magazine. I know. Well, People Magazine reviewing albums. Like, that's the world I want to live in, first of all. But second of all, I think it was kind of a snowball effect because they did actually play their first shows in America in 1985.

And at the time, they were getting a lot of hype from like local stations, you know, like college radio, that kind of thing. But also, and I don't know for sure if it was an 85 or a little bit later, but Prince tried to sign them to Paisley Park. Incredible. That makes sense. Yeah. We know Prince is a Cocktoe Twins fan because he would later like sample their song in one of his one of his production credits. But yeah, he tried to get them to be on Paisley Park. I think that was supposed to be like another distribution deal.

4-ED decided not to go through with it, which is probably for the best because Paisley Park didn't turn out so great. Right. But yeah, like they had hype in America. So it doesn't shock me that, you know, seeing this going on, someone at Capitol decided to cash in. while they were still hot in 88 and yeah, sign them a deal. It is just, again, I just have to say to me, it's very fascinating. And producer Dylan does not like when I do this, but I love to do this because it situates me in time and space. The top albums of 1988 on the Billboard 200.

Faith by George Michael. The dirty dancing soundtrack. Hysteria by Def Leppard. Kick by In excess. Bad by Michael Jackson. Appetite for Destruction Guns and Roses Out of the blue Debbie Gibson. I'm just not getting the Cocktoe Twins vibe.

Do you know what I'm saying? Or like any indication that that was... I mean, it goes on. There's like, you know, it's all like White Snake and Whitney Houston and Aerosmith and, you know, that kind of stuff. So it is to me so cool that Capital was like, yeah, like we want to push this. Yeah.

I mean, it's... It must have been because... they had such a, like, unique fan base around them, too. And such a, like, people really jelled onto them because they were so different, which is, like, kind of a one in a million chance you got with the music industry. But at the time, it was like, oh, you know, David Lynch wants to put them in a movie. Like, you know, in 1985, that was a big deal. And to be fair, because I don't often remember to do this, but, like, modern rock radio was much cooler in 1980.

It was Susie and the Banshees, U2, Edie Brickell, psychedelic furs, REM. So like, and actually, Cocktoe Twins. Cocto Twins, Carolyn's Fingers. Oh, we didn't mention that. Oh, because we haven't gotten to that album yet. But Carolyn's Fingers' Is a huge hit. Let's get to that album. Bluebell, Null, September 1988.

Yeah, so they recorded that album while Liz was pregnant with her first child. You get a song called for Phoebe Still a Baby, which is often interpreted as like a song to her child. It's like her going up into this, like, high, high register, and it just sounds like so alien. But at the same time, you do get songs like Carolyn's fingers, which are like, that's probably their most commercial sounding song up until this point. I don't know. It's an interesting album. It's not really, I feel like it gets looked over because people think of it as this like stepping stone to Heaven or Las Vegas, which would come next. But I mean, I think it's really cool. It's like, you know, this almost like icy sounding pop music in a way. Totally.

I really like that album, that song. Is it Chico Buff or Seiko Buff? I always say Seiko Buff, but that's Seco Bluff. But that's my... I know. It's like reading Dr. Seuss titles with some of these songs. Yeah, Seiko Bluff, that's my favorite off of this album. It's like probably my favorite cocktail.

twins and melody. Just watch these things on the chorus is so beautiful. Do you want to hear a song from this album? I guess we should hear Carolyn's fingers since it was, it was the jam. Yeah. Let's do Carolyn's fingers. This is Carolyn's fingers. That was Carolyn's fingers. Okay, I don't know what came first cart or the horse, but this song, like we said, was a big hit in America. I, again, I have to assume it had a lot to do with capital pushing it. I think so. Like at that point, if they were already signed capital, then I would imagine. It also, it sounds like something you would hear in a movie soundtrack.

I don't know if it ever ended up in a movie, but it sounds like something you would play in like a late 80s, like teen drama or something. Totally. Yeah, it did really well. It hit number two on the alternative songs chart. And then they started to get, which we started to talk about before, but I was ahead of myself, they start to get a lot of American press. Like, there's a huge piece about them in the LA Times that I thought was really good. The guy goes, he goes off on some metaphor about how the

cocto twins are impressionist painters of pop music. But then the People magazine, that just really sent me. I'm just like picturing this like People magazine with fucking Olivia Newton John on the cover and her workout outfit. And, you know, page in 20 pages. And here's a review of, a cocto twins album. Anyways, all that to say, they're starting their rise, their meteoric rise in America. Robert Criscow, for the record,

did not like this album. He did not. No, he gave it a C-plus. Yes. I believe also, I might be wrong about this, but he was super into early cocto twins and then was kind of... Oh, he thought they sold out.

Yeah, he thought they sold out because he was like, oh my God, the early albums were such cool experimentations with this sound, and then they became too... commercial, which is interesting that he, like, that was the line in the sand for him was like Bluebell Noah was too commercial. Fascinating.

Yeah, in his review, it's like, what are they, these are the fairies in the aura business. What are they doing on the alternative rock charts? All right, Bob. Now we've gotten to a huge moment. Yeah, now we get to the lead up to Heaven or Las Vegas. Okay, so two important things happen in the history of the. band before this album. One of them is that Lucy Bell, who is Liz and Robin's child, is born. And then Simon's father, Ivorayman, dies. Yes. So at this point, all three members of the band have now

lost their fathers, but they also have a baby in their life. And on top of this, Robin's substance abuse issues were starting to touch up with him. He was doing a lot of Coke, partially because he was not only producing the band, but he was also producing all these other groups that were on 4 AD at the time. So he was overworked. He was, you know, fighting with Ivo and the other people on the label.

There's a story about how he was, like, in the studio and so high that Liz had to, like, call a cab to pick him up, even though they were only living, like, a block away from the studio at the time. Like, he was in bad shape. And yet, out of that chaotic time, they created this album that many people consider to be their best album. It's interesting because I think, you know, you correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the album we know the most about what was happening with them during the album. But also, like, it's so you can hear it all, right? Like, you know, him being a wild cokehead, I can't imagine didn't contribute to like how this is.

Like, you know, pacing is faster and like it's more, the drums are more dancey. And like, you know, there is, if you know, you know. Yeah. I mean, if you listen to pitch the baby and you know what was going on with them, like, it makes sense. You can hear it in how that song is played. Obviously, such a tragedy that Simon lost his dad, I think like you said during the recording of this album. But like, the like, you know, huge themes that emerge in this song of like birth and death, I think that added so much this album because it's not just like a fun, dancey album.

It has so much gravitas because of that. Yeah, I said gravitas. I know a big word or two. Yeah, like you get the, all these lyrics where she's talking about, like, how this child is going to, like, save her relationship with Robin or like, so much of the album kind of alludes to that. And then, like, it's so ecstatic and joyful, but the same time you have these, like, verses and melodies and piano lines that Simon wrote, like, in the wake of his father's death. And you get this, like, you know, contrast of moods that you can hear throughout the entire thing. There are so many funny interviews with them around their relationship that, and we haven't mentioned, Robin was fat.

He was a fat co-head. Yeah. Rare. Rare creature of it exists. And Elizabeth is always making fun of him, Liz, always making fun of him. There's like, I read one interview where someone asked them like, oh, who is. would play you in a movie and Robin was like, Carrie Grant. She was like, yeah, right, more like Jim Belushi. Oh my God. Savage. Savage. Scottish people. Savage. I don't think he cared, but. I mean, you always associated what you did with 4 AD and suddenly. You did. Maybe.

No one. I didn't. I certainly don't. She could be fierce when she had to be. Like, oh my God, Liz. Yeah. And there's like one one way. She's like, he eats too much. And he's like, you don't have sex with me anymore and she's like, yeah, so what? Gorgeous. Anyways, this album is awesome. Would you say this is like a fan favorite? Like, if not a fan favorite, then like maybe the most well-known Cockto Twins song. I would say so, like this and maybe treasure in certain circles, but mostly having her

Las Vegas. But yeah, having her Las Vegas, probably the most well-known of the Cockto Twins albums. I mean, if you've seen any Cockto Twins memes, it's always with... have near Las Vegas and trying to figure out what she's saying, especially in the title track. Which is weird because this album actually has more English. We've reverted back to more English here. So like, bro, what the fucker are the cocktoe twin saying is more applicable to many other albums? Yeah. I mean, it's still, I mean, you still have to like really strain to hear exactly what she's talking about. And obviously there's a lot of abstract.

She's very Scottish. And obviously there's a lot of like kind of abstract poetry that's in these lyrics. But coming from Bluebell Noll where she's just like fully, you know, speaking in tongues on certain songs. Scadding. Ethereal Scatting. Exactly. Ethereal scatting. I love that.

Here it's like there's actual, if not English, there's like other words that are very easy to translate. Do you actually, okay, do you know what? the title Futzpolitik means that song. You don't know? Okay, so I'll give you a hint. It's German. So, politic and German is... So fuck politics?

It's close. I don't know if I'm pronouncing this right, but Futsa is a German slang word for female genitalia. So it roughly translates to... Cunt politics. Cunt politics for pussyposset. Yeah, and you actually listen to the song, and it's like she's talking about wet dreams and like female puberty and all this stuff. And it's like, oh, well, this is kind of explicit.

Like more so than you would imagine from like a band that seems to just sing in abstract lyrics. Related news. Ice Blink Luck is the single off this album. And MTV was like, if you don't give us the lyrics, we will not program this because they have to, like, check for, you know, obscenity. And they were like, we're not giving you the lyrics. And so they did not program the video. Yeah.

Which, I mean, it's a hilarious video because it's just, like, them green screened over what looks like the album cover of just, like, all these, like, colorful lines and them just, again, Robin doing his thing where he just stands there and, like, lightly plays the guitar. It's very funny. But, yeah, to this day, fans still argue over the exact lyrics on that. song in particular because there's one line where it's like they don't know if she's singing jericho like the biblical place or cherry coal which was like a type of coal that was burned in scotland in like the 19th century right they know that she's talking about her kid but they don't know like

what metaphor she's using these become like the huge debates in cocto twin circles is like what exactly is liz fraser saying yeah i'll throw open like a walnut safe i don't know what the fuck that is Yeah. More like a love. That's a bottle of exquisite stuff. Okay. I don't know, babe. Whatever you want. Let's hear a couple songs about this album, the sense that's an important one. Should we hear the title track first? Yeah. You can really hear that she's saying Las Vegas at least here. So that's something to want. Yes, you could definitely tell that. This is Heaven or Las Vegas. That was Heaven or Las Vegas. Clearly, let me ask you a question. You love Cocto Twins I do

When you put on this song Are you singing along? Yeah, I mean What are you saying? What are you saying? Do you have genius open Or is it you're sort of just like This sounds right to me

Whatever, whatever feels right in the moment Like I definitely will sing Heaven or Las Vegas Because that line you can easily tell That that's what she's saying But everything else too. Everything else, it's, you know, I mean, if it's, you know, it's a song about Las Vegas, it's all a gamble. Like, you just sing whatever it comes to mind. And I hope it's right,

kind of in your head. Okay. All right. It's interesting. I guess I was thinking, like, while I really enjoyed listening to a lot of Cawcdo twins and, like, there's so many songs that I was like, oh, I love this. And it makes sense to me why it was not a band I ever sought out or connected with because I actually really need lyrics. Like, lyrics are really important to me as, well, you're also a writer, but as a writer who has no imagination, I cannot cling on usually to a song if it doesn't have some, like, lyrics that I can belt out in my kitchen and just really feel that I am embodying the song. So I think that was always a bit of a barrier for me with Cartoich Wins.

Yeah, totally. And I definitely feel the same way. Like I grew up listening to country music. So, like, lyrics are big deal for me. Like, I, you know, need to have songs that have good writing or just, you know, evocative writing. Like, that's usually what I gravitate towards. I think, like, Cockto Twins were sure, the exception that proved the rule for me. Because it's like they were the first band I really got into where I could just kind of let it go and fully immerse.

Not only fully immersed myself in. sound of it, but I think, you know, as Liz Frazier has said, like, you could kind of listen to what she's singing and kind of project however you're feeling onto it. Like, I think, like, it invites you to do that. Totally. And I think, like, when I discovered it in college, like, I was fully ready to do that, especially on, like, Treasure, Heaven or Las Vegas. Like, all these songs were just kind of easy to hum along to and kind of just, like, connect to because they sound enough like pop music, but like they were so kind of celestial

and then also seemed to like come from this like higher, I don't know. They come from this like place where, yeah, I mean, voice of God, right? Like, I don't know. It's just, it's so easy to listen to them and just kind of let your emotions tell the story for you, you know? Totally.

It's really funny because people will interview Cocktoe Twins and bring up this like, it's the voice of God. and they're always like literally, what are you talking about? Like, we just go and make music. Like, we're simply making music. I don't know what you're talking about. They're just really funny about it, you know?

Which I like. I like that. Do you feel that they had spent some time in Las Vegas? I don't know if they did. I think they just kind of saw it as this place that, I mean, this goes back to the whole contradiction with the band, right? Where they wanted to kind of, you know, Robin had this, like, slightly pompous idea to, like, remake pop in his own image and like remake pop music how he wanted to make it but like they didn't want the trappings of stardom and all and like for me the title heaven or las Vegas just like goes back to that

like this idea of like you know constantly having this tension between the music you want to make and like how people perceive it totally um and then also it was kind of their last gamble it was you know liz felt like their relationship was on the rocks both like like her romantic relationship with Robin and then also just their relationship as a band. And she came up with the title. So to me, it's like her being like, this is our last hurrah to like make sure and see if this works. Heaven or Las Vegas was recently very famously covered by a young woman named Milacent-Syro. That's not her name.

Her name is Mila-Saris. But what if it was Milacin? Wouldn't that be amazing? Mylis and Cyrus. Oh, my God. That's her Liz Frazier name. What did you think about this cover and follow-up question? What did you think about her statement that none of you will know this song, but?

But I am going to sing a song that no one fucking knows. Well, that's the thing. It's like, yeah, probably the people who were there at her concert were not totally aware of the song. But who fucking cares? She should have just sang it instead of like, like, you watch the video of her performing it and she's just like apologizing the whole way through. You know what? You should be proud that you're even. than attempting to cover this song that doesn't even have, like, lyrics that most people can sing.

Like, just go for it, you know? Yeah. Did you like the cover aside from the constant apologizing? She sounded great. I thought she should have done, like, a full cover of it. She's so good at them. Her voice is so incredible. And the fact she's able to do so many different types of songs is kind of amazing.

Yeah, she's really gifted. I like the idea that she was like, you guys have probably not heard of this, which, like, totally makes sense. in the context, like you said, of, like, a bunch of, like, probably tweens and teens at her show. But then, like, music press was like, excuse the fuck out of me, ma'am. And it's like, she wasn't talking to you, like, Dave, you know? Like, she was talking to the people in the audience. Like, give her a fucking break. Yeah, like, if you want to see what cocto twin stands look like, like online stands,

just look on the YouTube comments of that video where they're just like, I've loved the cocter twins since 1984. How dare you suggest that nobody knows. who they are. It's like they're literally not, she's not speaking to you. Okay. Well, as a counterpoint to heaven in Las Vegas, I did want us to hear FruFu Foxes and Mid-Summer Fires, which was written by, I think, primarily by Simon and is like a much

darker sort of meditation, I think, on death. And I think it, like, is a good way to show the range of the album. How do you feel? Absolutely. I mean, this was the song that he wrote the day. after his dad died and you could definitely hear it kind of in the melody. But it also, it goes back to that like Spanglemaker format that they were becoming fond of where it's this album closer that kind of starts off on a very dark note and then just kind of turns into this big, like, heavenly

chorus with like Liz and her vocals overdubbed like a dozen times. Yeah, it's really, it's real good, as the kids say. It's a banger. It slaps. It's a banger. This is fru-frew foxes in midsummer fires. That was for Foo Foo Foxes and Midsummer Fires. It's interesting because, like we said, Simon wrote this song, but obviously Liz wrote the lyrics. So the lyrics are still very much like about being a mom and baby, you know, like there's a lot of like little baby references and their little hands and infant's breath. And so it's an interesting juxtaposition. Yeah. You get that all throughout the album, but especially here because it's like, again, it starts out so dark.

And then it's kind of this idea that like, you know, the child in her life is going to somehow bring light and brightness to the world. She actually does say in an interview, after having a baby, I felt like I could do fucking anything. And I think, like, you can kind of get that sense from the album, right? Like, she sounds bolder. She does. Yeah. She sounds so, like, because I think, too, with Bluebell Null, she was in this high register for, you know, so many of the songs. And the thing about her high register is you can't really tell what she's singing when she's like singing that high.

You know, she almost just becomes like an instrument at that point. And here you really can, you can hear her quite clearly. Like she has this powerful voice throughout the entire thing. And really this one more than any of the other albums in my opinion, it's just like her stepping forward and saying exactly what she means in a way that is not shredded by any kind of. light flowery music. Totally. I don't know about you, but the two types of albums I find the most interesting, and this might have to do with my gender and age,

but are breakup albums and albums about being a parent, specifically motherhood albums. I think they're a little bit uniquely different than fatherhood albums. But like, there's just something so powerful and mystical that happens when a woman, even though it happens literally four million times a day, it's still every time, like, so transformative. And, like, I love hearing that in an artist's, like, discography, like, the jump that it makes when someone's had a child and, like, what it does to them as an artist. And I feel this is, like, one of the more moving examples of that that I've heard because, like, you just said, like, she's kind of like, okay, yeah, I have stuff to say and you can hear it now. Yeah.

I'm not scared of anything because, like, I can do anything. I had a fucking baby bitch. Yeah. It sounds like she feels like she has a purpose now, which like, you know, it's not like she didn't before, but it's just that confidence makes such a difference. Totally. And then after this album, they're like super down to tour all of a sudden again, which they hadn't done much for a while.

I think it's important to mention that, and we said this, I think up top, but like, now there's real lyrics, so it's easier to perform. And also they started using a sampler live instead of this whole time they've been using backing tapes, like you said earlier, like this whole time. And then now they're like, we're going to do live sampling, which obviously makes a much more dynamic live show. Yeah. And they also started to bring on touring musicians. Only a couple for this tour, but then later in other tours they would bring on more people on stage. And obviously they were still using drum machines that I don't think they ever got another live drummer. But yeah, they were starting to kind of expand what their live show looked like in a way that they had him before.

Okay. So besides doing a ton more touring than they had been for a while, this album, the last a bit too, but I think this one was the one that really cracked it open. They started getting a ton of U.S. press. So the cocktail twins are on the cover of alternative press. They're profiled in details. Remember details? That was a great magazine. So this kind of, I think, really cracks them open in the United States. What would you say? Yeah, I think this just blew open awareness of the band. You also have to remember at this time, 4-D was getting a lot more American bands on their label. Like, at this point, Pixies were now the biggest band on 4-ED, arguably.

Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah, and like for a while it had been undisputedly cockto twins. And then it was kind of as soon as they started getting more American bands on the label, like they kind of eclips them. Yeah. But with those American brands and of course, as we were saying, like, Cocktoe Twins now had American distribution, they were just able to get a ton more press because of all these factors coming together. Yeah. Damn, that's a really good point. I forgot that Pixies had like blown up at this point.

Yeah. Because they had already put out like Cervorosa and Doolittle on 480 and they were like huge. Yeah, Pixies and I believe throwing. muses were on there at this point. A few more American bands, but those were kind of the two big ones. Somebody was visiting Boston to scout. Yes. After this, there's only two more albums that they have put out to date, right?

Yes. And neither of them are on 4-D because they left the label after Heaven or Las Vegas. Well, I mean, we can speculate that they were sort of unhappy for some time. Oh, they were totally kicked off. It was not their choice. No, no, no, no, no. It was definitely not an amicable separation. The basic gist of it is that Robin's behavior during all these press strips, especially with the increased press that they were doing in America, he had grown increasingly erratic, was being even more aggressive with journalists and people he was talking to. Cocaine is a hell of a drug, as they said. It is. And apparently during one interview, he made a mean comment about someone.

who he didn't say their name, but it was pretty obvious to the people kind of involved in the know that he was talking about Ivo's ex-partner, Deborah. And Ivo got really pissed off. But not business partner, like girlfriend, as we would say. So Ivo meets with the band's manager. He meets with 4A's lawyers. And then he comes to the band and says,

you're off the label. It's over. their manager was actually very thrilled by this because he now was like, oh, we can get a really good deal on a major label because we're off a 4-D. But it was a very kind of sudden break from this label that in a way had kind of had at least outwardly this very like symbiotic relationship with the band. They had kind of each been associated with each other for almost a decade. Totally. And it just kind of ended overnight basically because of kind of kind of. this built-up resentment between the band, especially Robin and Ivo.

And also didn't like around this time before the next album comes out in 93, don't Robin and Liz also like finally end their relationship? I don't think they've ever really spoken about the exact details of that. They kept it pretty private. But it's around this time that they cut off their romantic relationship. They have a child now. they have a very young daughter. Right.

And they decide to continue working together as a band, although as we would see, like, this was a very rocky partnership, as you can imagine. For the next few years, basically, like, as they were recording the next album, none of the band members could really be in the same room together. Like, they all kind of recorded their parts separately, which is kind of amazing because, like,

you would never necessarily know from listening to it. But, like, it kind of makes sense once you actually hear, like, all the disjointed genres that they start to kind of pick apart on For Calendar Cafe, the next album. It's, it kind of makes sense when, you know, it's like, okay, yeah, they were all kind of in different creative head spaces. They were no longer really working together as, like, a partnership or as a collaboration. They were all kind of on their own creative paths. Totally. I feel like this album is, like, I don't want to, like, be reductive. But I feel like this album is like very clearly an album of trauma.

You know? Yes. Like there's so much sonically, I feel like that like echoes like like you were saying even like disjointed dramas like people going through their own separate issues. Yeah. You know, having in Las Vegas, as we were saying, like you can hear Liz's vocals more clearly on there than you could in past albums. Like you can kind of start to tell what she's saying even if like,

the actual phrasing of the words is very abstract. Like, you can tell which word she's saying and kind of get the poetic meaning behind them. On this album, she's very explicit, especially on Bluebeard, which was the single. And kind of the most, like, explicit actual lyrical content, just like being able to make out what she's saying, like, the most explicit cock to twin song. Like, you know what she's talking about the instant. You hear it. Why don't we hear Bluebeard? How do you feel about that?

Yeah. For those who have been spending this entire episode waiting to make out words. Yeah, now is your time. Here's your payoff, Ben. This is Bluebeard. That was Bluebeard. I mean, listen, are you the right man for me? Are you safe?

Are you my friend? Or are you toxic for me? Just going to slap that right on the hinge profile. Yeah. Call it a fucking day. You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. She's asking all the right questions.

Yeah. She absolutely is. Yeah, I mean, so much of this album is about kind of questioning your relationships. And not to say that Heaven and Las Vegas wasn't, but here is just like so upfront. And so, like, it's almost like Fleetwood Mac rumors level in the way that she's just like going after it. What if you're like Robin and you're like fresh off a like gorgeous line of cocaine and you're like, oh, let's go hear what Liz's lyrics are for this song? And it's like, oh, 13 years into a relationship. Are you the right man for me?

Are you safe? Are you my friend? Or are you toxic for me? And you're probably like, wah-w-w. It's intense. No, and it's such a cheerful sounding song, too. Like, it's the start of this, like, you know, kind of 90s alternative sound that they were starting to adopt.

And, like, just like the most devastating lyrics put over it. It's such an amazing contrast with that song. It's a good song. At the end of the day, there's not, you can't argue that it's a good song. No, it's a great song. This album is not as memorable, though, or didn't, I think, strike the same chords that have in our Las Vegas did.

Why do you think that is? It's definitely more meandering. Like, I think especially when you get to kind of like the middle part of the album, like track five, track six, it starts to kind of be very slow and there's not as many bangers. You kind of have to wait till like summerhead to really get like anything upbeat again.

Yeah. Like obviously there's a lot of insights in this album. There's a lot of very really interesting introspective lyrics. Like there's, um, on Evangeline, which is another favorite on this album, it's kind of like, I think of it as like a parallel to like Fiona Apples fetch the bolt cutters because it's like Liz kind of looking back on her career and like her relationship to fame and like kind of how it's evolved over the years. And she's saying like, I was a famous artist. Everybody took me seriously. Even those who did never. understood me, I had to fantasize just to survive. Like, it's really good lyrics. It's just like it's presented in not the most interesting music. And I think it just was kind of too meandering and too kind of languishing almost for people to really grip onto it. Right. I mean, that's a good way. That's a good way to put it. Too languishing, too meandering, the story of this podcast. Do you remember the cover of Bluebeard that Faye Wong did that was in Chunking Express? Yes, it was in Chunking.

And she actually did a number of covers with the band, especially on the next album. But she did a duet with Liz. Oh, sick. They were like full-on collaborators. Yeah, like at one point Robin and Simon actually wrote a song specifically for her and for getting the name of it. But they, yeah, they had like a working really. with Fay Wong, which is awesome. So cool. Yeah. I love that moment in Chunkane Express. I feel like it was like a perfect use of that song.

This album did hit number 78 on the U.S. Billboard 200, because you were wondering. I know you all were wondering. Other than that, there's like not a lot to note about like the reception was just not the same. Like it got okay reviews, the people that like Cokto twins liked it. So NME gave it an eight. Q gave it four stars. There was no more, you know, as far as I can tell, like big splashy U.S. press spreads. It was kind of just like, okay, that's fine. Yeah. I mean, it was a little disappointing to the band, I can imagine, because they had just signed to this major label, Fontana, and they were kind of expecting, you know, the kind of press that you get associated with the major

label. And it just didn't happen the way that they were expecting with this album. It kind of, It didn't flop, as you said, but, like, it just, there wasn't any extra benefit from being on Fontana versus 4AD. Like, they almost benefited from being on 4AD because they were part of that family and that kind of, like, music nerd section of the press, you know? We briefly mentioned it up top of the episode, but there was, like, a certain contingent of, like, worldwide goths who, like, anything that comes out on 480, they're going to buy, and there's, like, a prestige, like, bestowed upon. any release you have. I mean, listen, it's not like no one cared. It's just that no one cared as much as the expectations of the band. Would you think that's a fair? Yeah. It did well and it did well by any standards except for we've been a band for 13 years and this was supposed to be our like moment in the sun and it just wasn't a moment in the sun in that sounds. Yeah. What happens next?

So they take a couple of years to record the next. album. Around this time, Robin does actually go into rehab, which is good. So he starts to clean up. Also, Liz begins a friendship slash creative partnership slash maybe something more with Jeff Buckley, which is kind of interesting. Whoa. I mean, he idolized me before he met me. It's kind of creepy. And I was like that with him. That's just so embarrassing. But it's the truth. I just couldn't help fall in love with him. If you'll remember, song to the siren, arguably like kind of the breakout single for the Cocto Twins, was written by Jeff's father, Tim Buckley. So Liz starts to report music with Jeff.

They record at least one song together called All Flowers in Time Ben Towards the Sun, which they never officially released, but you can find copies of it online. And it's quite good. Damn, that sucks. They didn't release it. Why? Yeah. She was supposedly very upset when people leaked it, but it is now out into the world. So yeah, they have this very intense friendship that will come back later.

I read his diaries. He read mine. We'd just swap. We'd literally just hand over this very personal stuff. And I've never done that with anybody else. But yeah, eventually they release the album Milk and Kisses, which, They didn't know it at the time, but that would be the last Coptow Twins album. Is Milk and Kisses two EPs that they made into an album? Am I right on this or am I just like misinterpreting Wikipedia? Because from what Wikipedia, my friend, maybe my best friend, honestly, I'm lonely, says is that they, in 95 they put out two EPs, twin lights and otherness.

And then some of those tracks on those. those were alternate versions of songs that ended up appearing on Milk and Kisses. Yeah, like, I think you can think of those EPs as like the draft version of Milk and Kisses. And from all accounts, the band was not very satisfied with the EPs. But honestly, I think the album turned out great. It's become lately one of the, like, one of my favorite albums of theirs. Like, because I remember first listening to it and being kind of like, oh, this is like a little underwhelming, kind of in that

four calendar cafe way where it's like, it's just kind of meandering. But there's some real gems on this record and some real kind of departures from the standard cocto twin's sound that I think really they pull it off pretty well

in a surprising way. There is a song on here. Is this what you were alluding to? That is an homage or a tribute to Jeff Buckley? Yes, there is. is oddly enough, you would think that this would come after his death, but it did not. It actually came a year before it. But yes, it's called Rilke and Heart, which is a tribute to Jeff Buckley.

Shout out Rainer Maria Rilke. Everyone's favorite goth, emo poet. Can you tell me a little more why this has become a favorite album of yours? Like, was this like a grower, not a shower kind of vibe on you like what what is it that made you come around on this album yeah it was just kind of something that sort of sneaks up on you because again like there are definitely some sort of slower songs on here but it's also just like the first track violin is amazing it's like this almost grungy kind of song where Liz is singing I kid you not she's singing English words backwards like she wrote out the lyrics backwards. My bitch is back.

She's like, oh, really? Did you enjoy those two albums of discernible English? Fuck off now. We're over that, babe. We're back and we're going even further in the opposite direction. I swear, if you look up the genius page for this song, it's like you're looking at the Rosetta Stone. It's like people taking like syllable by syllable trying to rearrange it so that it makes sense.

She's like, this next album will be in the language from Lord of the Rings. So if you don't know, it sucks for you, but here we go. I don't know. Like the last two songs are some of the most, like in a catalog full of very emotional tracks. Like they're some of the most emotional songs that I think the Cockta Twins ever released. And she does, I mean, she does kind of go back to that four calendar cafe mode where she is like speaking pretty upfront about her relationship with Robin and kind of her relationship with being in the public eye. And it's like, yeah. I mean, it's a good mix of like, kind of several eras that they had recently been through, and you kind of get to sample all of them on this one album.

So while I don't think it's as good as a like coherent product as heaven or Las Vegas or even like Bluebell Knoll, I think it still works as like a collection of songs. Like it's really, really cool to kind of go back and revisit all this different stuff that they were trying out during this era. And also, I mean, you can tell kind of like they had started to record in the studio. again. They kind of started to reconcile and, you know, Robin and Liz were back to being friends. So they were more cohesive as a band, too. And you can kind of hear that in this album. Why don't we hear violin to just kind of like situate people on what we're talking about. And also, because it's a really good song. Yeah. This is violin. That was violin. You know what? It's something that we didn't talk about,

which I think, for me anyways, like really gives this album not just more context, but like more, just like hits harder, is that in 1993, when they were working on Four Calendar Cafe, Liz had a nervous breakdown.

And she was hospitalized and she's talked about it openly in interviews, so I don't, not trying to like, you know, do trauma porn here. anything, but she talked a lot about, like, the fact that parenthood cracked her open in a way that also let out all this, like, repressed stuff, demons, you know, trauma, all this stuff. And, like, while, like, it was the most amazing experience of her life to become a parent,

it also, like, made it possible for her to, like, face up to all this stuff that she'd never faced up to and, like, really drowned her. And then she was able to kind of come out the other side. like you can hear that in this album. Don't you agree? Like it's really like I made the joke about like fuck you. I'm not going to speak English. But like that does feel to me like a very much like I'm going to do exactly what I want to do and make the art that I want to make. And I really don't care what anyone thinks.

And this was clearly like in the blueprinting of her original, you know, voice as a singer and as a performer and artist. And like that she like doubled down on it after all that kind of. stuff went down and she's become this mother is like really profound to me. Yeah, no, I think you're absolutely right. Like, you know, I can only imagine as, you know, she was someone who went through a particularly difficult childhood and like really tough family life. And then to suddenly be in the situation where she has a child and is like trying to save her relationship with her child's father. Like I can only imagine how difficult that must have been for her and like for her to like, for her to like fight back and kind of express herself creatively in this way. And again,

like she still sounds so confident on these albums in a way that you just don't hear prior to to heaven or Las Vegas. And it's, yeah, it's amazing just to hear her like be more daring in her performances and like be more daring and like what kind of music she wants to create. It's, I mean, it's incredible. It's an incredible part of this album. I mean, even you're saying like the trauma of, you know, trying to say, they have a relationship, but what about the like, like, no Nicole Kidman coming out of the office and the green pants and the flowered shirt with the hallelujah, but also, like, you know, she was in this relationship since she was 17 years old. She was a child. So to, like, experience

the world for the first time. It's almost like her own way of being born, you know, like not to like be so dramatic, but like, I mean, it kind of is, right? Like, you're experiencing the world for the first time without the partner that's like held your hand since you were 17 years old. Like that's a massive, massive thing. And I love that you can hear that in the album. Like there's just so much. Also, before I get too serious and like, what the fuck are you talking about? I also love that in this interview that I was reading, they're just always so like fuck off to each other. And that's like a beautiful Scottish sensibility. But like she's literally in an interview with Robin talking into this person. she's like, yeah, I'm just like really into having a boyfriend right now.

He's like, what are you into? And she's like, I'm just like so into having a boyfriend. Like that's just really what I'm so into right now. It's just like, just like, cool. I love that. And he's just like, mm-hmm. Awesome for you. Like, that's so good for her.

Yeah. Yeah. It's just, it made me laugh. I was like, oh, I love this vibe. Yeah. What else about this album? Like, you mentioned the last two songs you find a really emotional, like in what way?

Yeah, like Treasure Hiding, you know, as I was saying before, like, they tend to have this thing with like the last songs in their albums being kind of like, oh, you know, it starts up quiet and then it gets like really, you know, this big explosion. That's kind of what happens on the second to last track of this album with Treasure Hiding. My favorite. And it's so good. Like, it's such a good melody that she gets into near the end. And Seekers Who Are Lovers, the last song, is kind of all about this like risky love and like basically giving yourself up to God kind of to save a relationship or arguably to escape a relationship.

It's not really clear, but that's kind of the beauty of the track is like. Big surrender to higher power energy, might you say? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. It's like the lines in it are so poetic and grand in a way that like, you know, as much as we talk about the, you know, tracks on the Cocter Twins being kind of beautiful and very celestial, like this kind of is a whole other level lyrically than they've been before this. But also isn't musically too, because what struck me is that like this is also a sobriety album because Robin is, you know, lucid and discovered. covering sobriety for the first time. We talk a lot about sobriety albums on this here little show.

And like, I find them to be very moving. Like, when you really know that that was the art that came out of, like, living life completely raw dog clearly for the first time. And I may be like, you know, there's that element too. Would you agree? Yeah. It's, it's hard to tell because I don't know at what point in his rehab and sobriety journey that he was at. Sure. But it certainly sounds like, like the music sounds like someone making some kind of spiritual breakthrough. Right. Like just the way that like it's so in this kind of like high register and like it's all these synths kind of like lifting up all the time. It just sounds that way. I feel like they skipped over for Calendar Cafe and like this album feels like the actual

natural evolution of what they were doing on heaven or Las Vegas in terms of like that kind of like trying to channel this like higher deity through your sound or your music. Totally. What song were you saying that you wanted to hear? Let's do Seekers Who Are Lovers. Okay, awesome. This is Seekers who are lovers. That was Seekers who are lovers.

That's a goddamn gorgeous, beautiful song. I've ever heard one. Yeah. I love it. It's like, forgive me, I'm not a music theorist, so this is like a very basic. You're not forgiven. Actually, you have to leave. I thought you were a music theorist and now this is really extremely disappointing. I forgot to take the test before you go on this podcast. No, but like the way that it switches between like minor and major key and it sounds like the song is in conflict with itself. I think it's a great little touch. also the line where she is like you are a woman as much as you were a man like it's it always gives me like running up that hill cape bush vibes where it's like if I only could make a deal with God I'd get into swap her places like it's kind of the same the experience yeah same sentiment I'm kind of sad because it's only on the Hong Kong edition of this album but there is a duet version of the song Serpent Skirt with Faye Wong. Yeah. And I think the Japanese edition has two bonus tracks for those counting.

Milk and Kisses also, what a gorgeous name. It is. This wasn't meant to be the last Cocteau Twins album, but it was. Yeah. So at this point, the band had gotten kind of fed up with Fontana. And they ended up co-founding their own label. More specifically, Simon and Robin did. They co-founded the label Belly Union with the intention of putting all future Cocto Twins' records on that label. I just want to say also, like, shout it to Fontana, because even though they clearly did not know what to do with this band, I have to thank them for giving us.

When the band first signed to the label, they were on a Christmas compilation for them, which is how we got a cocto twins cover of Frosty the Snowman, which is probably the greatest thing on Earth. They leave Fontana, they go on the Sable Belli Union, and they start to record a new album, but partway through the recording, it's actually Liz who makes the decision to pull the plug and call it quits on the band.

And it's weird because, again, that they had seemed to kind of be on the upswing with milk and kisses. You know, Robin was a rehab. They seem to have all repaired a lot of their personal issues with each other. I think Liz just, as we were saying, she kind of, you know, had gained this newfound confidence and was, you know, becoming more independent. And she kind of just made the decision that, you know, hey, let's call it while the going is good. Producer Dylan has chimed in to ask a great question, which is, is there like a half-recorded Cocktoe Twins album just like in a vault somewhere that like no one is able to hear.

There is if by vault you mean Robin Guthrie's computer. There's a lot of demo recordings and half finish recordings. And there have been many, many, many, many, many requests over the years by Cockto Twins fans to release those tapes. And I know this because like every time Robin and Simon poke their head out to give an interview, they get asked about it. And they have said every time it is not anywhere near complete, you know, we would have to like actually go back in the studio and record together as a band in order to get any sort of semblance of a finished album. And we're not going to do that. So I don't know if we'll ever get to hear any of the album that they were doing. But it's a huge what if in their history. Were you devastated in 2005 when Cockto Twins?

Coachella Gates. God, so I mean, I was... Is this triggering too traumatic to talk about? We don't have to. I was nine years old when this happens. I was not aware of the band when Coachella Gate happened. Hearing about it later was quite devastating.

So the band was reportedly offered around $2 million to headline Coachella, which would have been the kickoff date for a reunion tour of over 50 dates in 2005. And apparently this was a scheme kind of dredged up by their manager to get the band on the road again. Initially, the band agreed, but then at the last minute, Liz decided that she could not go forward with performing with her old bandmates and her ex Robin. So they pulled out of Coachella and have talked about it since in a few interviews. And basically what Liz has said was like, I just was not in a place where we could. performed together as a band. Like emotionally, I don't know

if I will ever be there again. Right. Which is fair. Fair. I get that. Totally fair. Totally fair. You don't have to be friends

with your ex-boyfriend. You don't have to. No one says you have to. Yeah. It's just a shame because, like, again, they had, like, made this whole announcement. Like, we're going to do this.

It was, like, in the works. They'd already been offered the money. And for a while, Like if you read interviews at Simon, he's like pretty bitter about the whole situation. Simon wanted his one-third of two million dollars. Yeah, which, you know, again, understandable. But by all accounts, it was not, this was not something that the band really wanted from the get-go. It was just kind of something that was proposed to them by managers, people who worked with them that they initially agreed to and then thought,

hmm, let's think about this, you know? Producer Dylan, who famously lacks integrity, has chimed in to say that for $2 million, she would be friends with anyone. Whereas me, who is petty, vindictive, and sensitive would not for $2 million. I mean, that's, you know, two sides of the same coin. But again, it's like, I, you know, I don't think anyone is completely in the wrong here in this situation. I think just like the people who suffered the most ultimately were the cocktoe twins fans. You're like the people that suffered the most was me. Yeah.

Who wanted to see cocto twins at Coachella who purchased tickets. Can you imagine now like Cockto Twins being the headliner of Coachella? Like 2005 was such a different time where like that could happen. I went to Coachella in 2003 and four. So I can imagine the headliners were like the pixies and Bjork and it was like 80 bucks and you could just hop the funds. God. What a time. So I do. And yeah, did I do some ecstasy to groove Armada and attend?

I sure did, babe. That was a great time. Can you talk to me a little bit about any solo projects that came after before we sort of wrap up the story of Cocktoe Twins? Because I think, you know, people are pretty into their solo projects if they were diehard fans. Or you can tell me, were you into their solo projects? Yeah, well, I think actually it was one of their solo projects was the first bit of Cockto Twins-adjacent thing I ever heard, which was Liz Frazier singing on Teardrop by Massive Attack. That song was recorded only a year after the band broke up.

And basically what happened was Massive Attack had this instrumental, and they were looking for a vocalist. and one member of Massive Attack wanted Madonna to sing on the track and the other wanted Liz Frazier. Eventually they agreed that Liz Frazier was the good choice. And she actually wrote the song the night that Jeff Buckley died. So she was gone on record and said that like the lyrics the song are inspired by his death. I mean, Teardrop was a massive hit. It became the theme for House.

House, MD, the best television show that's ever been in existence. I was waiting. I'm just sitting here being quiet, letting you finish so I could scream how 70 is the best show that's ever been made. And what a gorgeous use of that song. And what a brilliant showrunner to think like, you know what we need to use as the lead music tier drop by Massive Attack featuring Liz Frazier. It's a great song. And that's how I first heard it was on the house theme song. Nothing to be ashamed of there. Is that sort of what kicked off Liz's solo career? Yeah, I mean, she's had kind of on and off solo projects. She toured the Massive Attack in 2006, so she could like perform the song live with them.

Right. She more recently toured with them in 2019. She also apparently has been working on a solo album for a very long time. She released a solo single called Moses in 2009 and has said in interviews that she's written enough songs. for a solo album, but she has yet to release one. She also, as we said before, recorded several songs for the Lord of the Rings trilogy, which is, I mean, if you want to hear just like how she compares to Anya, there's no better forum for that. I did not say that. I said that she spoke in the language of Lord of the Rings, not knowing that she had actually recorded songs for the Lord of the Rings soundtrack.

Oh, no, she recorded songs for the Lord of the Rings soundtrack. And yeah, she's, I don't know which one she's actually credited on versus just like singing in the background, but she's she is on the Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings soundtrack. Literally gorgeous. Literally. Lament for Gandalf, if you wanted to know, is where her vocals really come. Poor Gandalf. Poor Gandalf.

You didn't deserve it. Claire, we reached the part of the show where it is time for us to hear from your fellow fans. You guys know. Real ones know what I just said. Would you like to hear? our mega fan voices. Yes, I'd love to.

Hit it, Gandalf. The first time I'd ever heard them, I think was the first time I'd ever heard someone that uses her voice as its own instrument, conveying melodies and runs and riffs that you'd probably imagine a guitar or a synthesizer would play. What do I love about Cotto twins? So many things. I know some of these words are kind of overused nowadays, dreamy, ethereal of her world play, but I truly do think those are the best words to describe cocto twins' music.

Cocto Twins is like experiencing synesthesia. If you don't have synesthesia, I mean, a song like cherry-colored funky, you just see like pink, warm, red cherry hues. You go back to head over heels, and there's a lot of, like, grays, metallic, desert, arid textures. It's just listening to Cacto Twins just affects your whole body. The Cockto Twins are also one of the bands or musicians, along with, like, Bjork, Chade, Kate Bush, Donna Summer, that, like, as a closeted transatlantic. when I was younger, it helped me kind of embrace and express my femininity in this way that I maybe

wasn't super comfortable outwardly doing. There's something about them and those other artists that like had some kind of divine or like aspirational femininity that I really found myself connecting to. I got to give it up to heaven or Las Vegas for really, really hooking me, uh, pitch the baby. is just a song that makes me feel like I'm levitating, even though Liz Frazier is mostly all vowels, as she normally is, but bless her. It's all about evoking a mood and transporting you. Half the time you think you're hearing a synthesizer,

and it's not even a synthesizer, but another sound transformed into that lush, oozing soundscape that we know them so well for, or it's a drum beat that's been so dissoned, distorted and delayed to where it sounds not even percussive anymore, but melodic. Warm textures, like a blanket, cold textures, like knives. They find so romantic about Cato Twins listeners. I think most of us are just, like, deeply romantic at heart and are searching for beauty

in everything. And I've also been lucky enough to have a Cocto Twins themed DJ night with a my best friend Paige. And together we DJ their whole discography, or at least a lot of it, on Friday and Saturday nights, a pretty popular spot in Los Angeles. And it always amazes me how people will twirl so fiercely to the most undansable music and have such a fun time doing so. Like one of the images that comes to mind for me is,

like a glimmer of light coming through the darkness. I just, I associate them with like flickering candle lights and like stars in the sky and lights on in the city as you're like driving through when nobody's out at two in the morning. Wow, we wow. These are your friends, your people. Yeah. I will back up the person that said when you listen to Cocto Twins, you have a full body experience because as someone who did spend a full three days

listening to the entire Cocto Twins discography, it did affect the makeup of my cellular DNA. Unclear if it was in a good or a bad way. Yeah, no, I thought those accounts were very beautiful, especially just like, you know, comparing cocto twins to like Bjork, Kate Bush, and Donna Summer. Chaudet is like these like ultimate expressions of femininity and like, like that's just, that's beautiful. I love that. Claire, is it or is it not true that not just one, but several people have had the audacity

to sample the cocteau twins and put it into their own music? There have been a few. The two that I think are worth definitely mentioning are the weekend who took cherry colored funk from Heaven or Las Vegas and put it on his song The Knowing on House of Balloons. I like to think of the weekend as being the world's biggest

Cockto Twins fanboy, I think that. That kind of really checks out. Yeah, it does. Also, Prince, who way back in the day tried to sign Cockto Twins onto his label, he actually sampled 50-50 clown, also from

Heaven or Las Vegas, on a song called Love That Will Be Done, which was produced, he produced the song for an artist on his label called Martika. And you can hear it. Like you can hear a bit of the like guitar on it. And yeah, I mean, it's just fascinating like who has like tried to take the cocto twins like very like reverby kind of ethereal music and like applied it to songs that like

are trying to kind of fit that same vibe. And yeah, just like how many people have sort of paid tribute to them is kind of amazing. Well, fun fact, 50-50 clown is about me. Second fun fact, there's another fantastic sampling of cocteau twins that I must shout out, which is the rapper Antoine who sampled Lorelei on his song, Lay with You. He is a massive cocteau twins fan. But I will say like the amount of, again, kind of genre diversity in terms of people who have professed their love for the Cocto Twins is pretty amazing. In the same interview where Liz Frazier was talking about

the Coachella incident and kind of why she decided to back out of it, she talked about the number of offers she's gotten for collaborations with other artists. Basically, people who heard her voice on teardrop and were like, oh, we should do the same thing. Right. And she has turned down, by and large, all of them. And apparently one of the artists or groups that approached her was Lincoln Park. So in an alternate universe, we could have a Lincoln Park song featuring Liz Frazier. In an alternate universe, we have tear drop by massive attack sung by Madonna. It's true. Yeah, Liz Frazier really hasn't collaborated with anyone, except for this British folk singer named Sam Lee. She recorded a song with him in 2019.

But other than that, hasn't really done a whole lot of collaborations. I think Simon Raymond put out an album. Is that correct? Yeah. So Simon and Robin have been much more active with their music. Robin has actually done a bunch of different collaborations with Harold Budd. Robin has a separate project called Violet Indiana.

Robin has done a lot of different sort of production work with electronic artists, indie artists. and he lives in France with his French wife, and they have one daughter. Classic French wife. Wikipedia has whispered in my ear that Simon did discover Fleet Foxes. Yeah. So just an important tidbit for you. So Simon still operates Belly Union as a label.

I've actually spoken to him before about the label and kind of like their work there. Beach House makes so much sense. Long-time label at Beach House. Yeah, which makes sense. I mean, Beach House is kind of, if you were going to pick any one band that is sort of the successor to Cockto Twins, like Beach House would not be a bad pick. Simon also records under the project Lost Horizons. He records under the project Lost Horizons. He actually does that with a member of the band Diff Jaws, who were also on 4 AD back in the day. And he's done some production work, I believe. But yeah, he and Robin are still making music. separately for the most part. Well, Claire, it's been a really gorgeous time talking with you about cocto twins. I feel like you've really enhanced my understanding of a band that I admittedly did not know a lot about. And I feel really impacted by in my like short time of immersing myself and them and there. This has been great. Just like getting to kind of talk through

their whole discography with someone. I've never gotten the chance to do that. And it's just like, yeah, when you kind of see it all at once, it's just like you kind of fully get the magnitude of this band and like what they were able to accomplish. And it's so good to experience that. Claire, do you have a last song that you want to leave everybody with? Man, let's do cherry-colored funk. I feel like that's a perfect song to add on. Hell yeah. Okay, come back next week for a new episode of Bansplaine. Thank you, Claire. Thank you everybody for listening. This is Cherry Colored Funk. If you liked what you heard today, subscribe for more episodes of Bansplaine, only on Spotify. Our wonderful guest today was Claire Schaefer. Follow her on Twitter at Claire E. Schaefer.

Huge thanks to the Cocktoe Twins mega fans you heard on this episode. Emma Jane, Gabby Costa, Jill Kriesski, Olive Kimodo, Muk de Mohan, and Pascal. Stevenson. Bansplain is a Spotify original show. This episode was produced by My Heaven Dumban to my mom. Producer Dylan, aka Dylan Tupper Rupert, and edited by Nico Paolela with help from Casey Simonson and Tari Miller. Executive producers for Bansplane are Gina Delvac and me, Yossi Salek. Our gorgeous and catchy theme song was composed and performed by Bethany Cossentino and Jennifer Clavin and graciously recorded by Carlos Tla Garza in Los Angeles, California. Special thanks to Felipe Ghi Hermino, Robert Adler, Leah Edwards, David McDonough, Dana Meyerson, Jessica Hopper,

and still, season nine of the TV show, One Tree Hill. Come back every Thursday for a new episode of bands playing, only on Spotify. But at least I did a good cocteau twins voice, so that's all that's mattering.