Bandsplain - Counting Crows with Steven Hyden

Episode Date: May 20, 2021

Counting Crows are an essential inclusion to the sensitive nineties male rocker canon, one that is very close to Yasi’s heart. Music critic and author Steven Hyden joins Yasi to count the ways they love the Crows and reimagine a context in which they should be reconsidered as good and cool. Follow Steven Hyden on Twitter @Steven_Hyden, check out his podcast Celebration Rock on Spotify, and find his books "Your Favorite Band Is Killing Me" and "Twilight of the Gods" wherever fine books are sold. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's with this band anyway? I don't get it. Can you please explain? Wait like Bansplain? Welcome to Bandsplain. I am your host, Yossi Salick. This is a show where credentialed experts come on to explain and sometimes defend the honor of cult bands. Today's episode is about Counting Crows.

If you don't know what Counting Crows sounds like, Perhaps you've been in a coma since 1993 and just recently woke up. Welcome back. Here is what counting crows sound like. Our guest today is Stephen Hayden, the Mr. Jones, to my someone just a little more funky. He is the author of four books, including This Isn't Happening, Twilight of the Gods, Your Favorite Band is Killing Me, and with Steve Gorman, hard to handle. His writing has appeared in the New York Times magazine, Washington Post, Billboard, Pitch, Fork, Rolling Stone, Grantland, the AV Club, The Ringer, Slate, and Salon.

He is also currently the cultural critic at Uprox and the host of two podcasts, Indycast and 36 from the vault. Welcome to the show, Steve. Thanks for having me. I just want to say at the outset that I normally don't ban splain to women because I feel like that's not culturally acceptable. So I just want to put that out there that I'm doing this because you've asked me to ban on this very special occasion.

I simply do not believe you. We can have my wife come on here and verify. I don't ban splain around the house. I don't ban spain recreationally. Okay. I'll believe you, you guys, for the record, I have invited this bandsplain and I did it to myself. Let's get started.

I'm pretty excited to talk about counting crows. My love and devotion to the counting crows is widely known, and I believe yours is two. Absolutely. Why don't you tell us about who these people are? Who are the crows that we are counting today? So Counting Crows are a band that formed in 1991 in Berkeley, California, which I feel like might be a surprise to some people because counting crows are very associated with Los Angeles, which is in Southern California. And Berkeley, of course, is Northern California. But they started in the north and eventually moved down south.

And the guys in the band were in different bands before. Adam Duritz, of course, the lead singer was in a group called the Himalayans. He did a lot of time in the local music scene up there. He was like in his late 20s, really, by the time he got started with Counting Crows. But once he was in that band, they had a real dramatic trajectory to the top of the music industry. And there's like 12 people in this band. There's 12 white men in this band. Yes.

Well, yeah, I believe it's about six, and there's been different people that have come in and out of the band throughout the years. So the members include David Bryson. He's the guitar player. There's David Ummer Gluck, who's another guitar player. I believe I'm pronouncing that correctly. You have Dan Vickery, the third guitar player. You have Millard Powers on bass, drummer Jim Bogios, and of course the great Charlie Gillingham. on keyboards.

Amazing. But Adam Duritz is the most famous person in the band. He's the face of the band. I feel like people know him, even if they don't know this band very well, because he is the most famous example of a white guy having fake dreadlocks in rock history. Yes. He's very recognizable. It's entirely possible.

They're the only reason I can sing. Well, I don't know. I don't know how much we're going to talk about the dreadlocks in this episode. It's not called hair splain, you know. I don't agree with you that they seem like an L.A. band because a aforementioned vibe and look, to me, screams Berkeley, California. Also, for the record, Steve, Adam Duritz did at first have real dreadlocks just so everyone knows for the hair records. And you know what? I think Adam Duritz should do whatever he wants with his hair because it is a free country. In 1992, they recorded a series of demos that were very well received.

Apparently, there were like nine record labels that bid to sign them up for the first record. Supposedly, they got so much money for that first record that they were known as Accounting Crows at Geffen Records, where they were eventually booked. And before their first record came out, in early 1983, they had a really high-profile gig at the Rock and Hall fame performing before Van Morrison was inducted. They played the song Caravan. And they were introduced by Robbie Robertson of the band. So there was like a lot of hype in the music biz about this band before their first album came out. And that first record, it comes out in September of 1993.

It's called August and Everything After. And that ends up just being a huge smash hit album, sell 7 million copies on the strength. I think in a big way. because of the hit single from that record called Mr. Jones, which is still a song that you probably hear at CVS or Walgreens, every time you go in. That's right, baby. So it's probably still like their most famous song, although there's other songs that they put out after that that I think are pretty well regarded as well, which we can get into later. But that's the basic background on this band. Okay. Well, we will get no further before the people here, Mr. Jones.

I did notice that you chose an alternate version of Mr. Jones, which I deeply love. And I do think everyone on God's Good Earth has heard the normal version of Mr. Jones. So why don't you set up this other version that you chose? I'm very excited to hear and to play for the people. Yeah. I feel like Mr. Jones is one of those songs that we've all heard a million times. And if this is a show where we're trying to explain a band that people might not get, Maybe it's worth playing a different version of the song that might make people hear it with fresh years. So, yeah, this is a live version that was released in 1997. And it's acoustic.

It was originally on VH1 Storytellers. And yeah, it's really different, but I think it puts the song in a different light. Maybe you'll hear it in a new way. All right. Let's hear Mr. Jones off of VH1 storytellers. You are listening to a music and talk episode where full. songs and talk segments live together in gorgeous harmony only on Spotify. Guess what? You can also create your own music and talk show for free with Anchor Spotify's podcasting platform. Get started at anchor.fm slash

music and talk. That's anchor.fm slash music and talk. Okay, that was Mr. Jones off of VH1 storytellers. Wow, really hits. It really hits in my heart. And I think we should just play a quick clip of the original Mr. Jones so people can really hear the contrast. It's interesting because it doesn't have a conventional structure for a pop song. Like there's not really a chorus to this song. It just kind of continues the same way throughout. But Adam Duritz just has this dynamic vocal personality in the song, very Van Morrison-esque. and I think that's what jumped out to people

when they heard this tune for the first time. I did not realize that Mr. Jones and me we go down to the barrio was not a chorus. I mean, I guess it is technically, but it's not really, it doesn't sound different than the rest of the song. It just kind of continues the same way throughout. There's not like a conventional verse,

chorus with a bridge. It's really just that guitar strum and Adam Durr, it's talking about wanting to be fan. throughout the entire track. Got it. Once again, I am unqualified to talk about music. I could be wrong. I mean, maybe it's a chorus, but to me it doesn't, it's not quite the same.

Like, you're used to pop songs on the radio, hitting you over the head with the chorus. And this doesn't feel like the same thing to me. It feels like a little unusual that this song was such a hit. You know, it's hard for me to imagine a song like this being a hit today. Honestly, should we start a movement, Mr. Jones, TikTok, movement. Let's make it happen. I want to point out that, which is I'm sure the point maybe you are also making, this version came out in 1998. And I think it's like, which we're getting a little

ahead, but I do want to point it out while it's fresh in people's minds. This is really telling of how famous they got how fast and what it was doing to Adam Durrits is psyche. Like the lyrics, yeah, we all want to be big, big, big stars, but we got second thoughts about that. And I want to be someone to believe, you should not believe in me. Those were purposeful choices. Yeah, I mean, I love that version too because I feel like counting Crow's live versions tend to alienate people because of all of the improvisation that Adam Durts does vocally. He kind of gets into this like jazzy scat singing zone where as I appreciate that aspect of their live stuff and I like that they rearrange this song.

pretty dramatically. But I also feel like that's maybe something that puts people off sometimes with Counting Crows. They don't know what to make of this band sometimes. I think in the way Adam Duritz writes and his vocal style, I think is very emo. Are you saying Counting Crows invented emo? It's funny you say that. That's what I heard. Oh, are we going to talk about Adam Duritz wearing the Get Up Kids T-shirt that I have saved on my phone forever in my favorites photos? Oh, that doesn't surprise me. You know, a long time ago, I did a story on this band Maritime who used to be the guys that were in the promise ring. Shout out, Promising.

Promising, of course, being a big emo band from Wisconsin. And they talked about Counting Crows and how in their tour van they would listen to Counting Crows records. Like recovering the satellites in particular was like a big thing for them. I mean, there's something about Adam Dirtz's vocal. where it sounds like he's crying, like when he's singing, especially when he gets up into its upper register. And it's one of those things where if you're on the wavelength of the record and the band

and you're in maybe even a similar headspace as Adam Duritz was when he wrote whatever song he's singing, you're totally with him. But if you're not, it can just be cringe-inducing almost. You know, in the same way that being around anyone who's saying, sad or depressed can be painful to be around. I think the purity of how he expresses those feelings because it's so unfiltered and it's so intense. It's just a lot. It's a lot to take in for people and not everyone could take it. We said the same thing actually about Dave Matthews, who you do not care for. But Dave Matthews often, when he gets into his higher register, sounds like he's crying.

And you know what? I'm going to notice something about myself. I think my My kink is men sounding like they're crying. And I'm okay with that. There is something about that, that, you know, sensitive male singer-songwriter of the 90s, who also happened to be very successful. But at the same time, they had this inner turmoil that they were expressing to like millions of people. And it's something that I think in retrospect, when people look back on it, if you were alive at the time and you were a fan, think some people reflexively affect an ironic distance from that or they try to laugh at it because it's almost like a high school picture of yourself.

You know, it's like I don't want to acknowledge that I was once that sensitive. But we shouldn't do that. We should embrace that part of ourselves. These men were the SoundCloud rappers of their generation. And in keeping with that, they got all the hot girls. Like, let's never forget that Adam Duritz's like dance. card of women he dated is frankly like insane two friends not just one friend two friends Jennifer Aniston and Courtney Cox which is like how did you pull that off babe without like

them getting mad at each other I'm so curious this man dated a woman who went on to date Brad Pitt I want you to let that sink in everyone and the thing with with Duritz too is that People are always incredulous when they talk about this. It'd be one thing if it were, you know, like a Dave Matthews or an Eddie better, more conventionally handsome men, you'd say, of course, they're dating actresses. But people look at Duritz. And again, we go back to the fake dreadlocks issue. They think, why would all these beautiful, successful actresses be dating this guy? And, you know, well, I would say, first of all, he's a rich, successful.

charming rock star. That's why you would date someone like that. But also, I think it goes back to this idea of Durrett's having a purity of expression that I think... He has a beautiful soul and these women saw it and wanted to be near it. And can you blame them? Exactly. And it seems genuine.

He doesn't strike me as a guy who, like a lot of sensitive male balladeers that you might look at them and say, well, they're probably actually not that sensitive. This is something that they're affecting in order to have a persona that is attractive to people. But with Duritz, I'd never get that feeling. And I think the thing with Duritz, too, that I think is so unique to him is that, you know, there's sad music that's like romantically sad that you listen to it and you feel like you're in a movie when you're listening to it. Like Nick Drake, who I love Nick Drake.

But you listen to him and you feel like if you're depressed, you listen to Nick Drake, you feel like you're in a West Anderson movie. God forbid, but yes. Whereas if you're listening to Counting Crows and you're depressed, there's something about the way Adam Durr's rights and sings. Then you're Yossi Salick, the Yossi Salick story. Or you're me, you know. Maybe we can play this song next, but I was thinking of the song Anna Begins from

August and everything after. Oh, God, yes, please. Yes. Which is an amazing song. Do we want to hear it first before talking about it? Yeah, let's hear Anna. begins. And while you're listening to everyone, I want you to imagine that when I sing it and listen to it, I say Yossi Begins. Okay, here is Anna Begins off of August and Everything After. That was Anna Begins off of

August and Everything After, or if you're me, Yossi Begins. This feels like a great entry point into talking about my personal fandom and in particular talking about how for whatever reason these bands in the 90s cemented my young mind's ideas of what it was to be a desired woman and it was to be mentally and I think I could say that producer Dylan I hear you but you know this woman she's she can't stop shaking and her kindness bangs a gong and Anna was one there's other songs which we'll get to about Maria there's a couple of songs about Maria she also sounds like she has some problems and there's just some like there's something about these songs that were about women who seemed inaccessible because they were kind of crazy.

And it really made me feel like that's what it was to be desired. And I don't think I've ever been able to shake that off. Like, it's still, that's why I am who I am. That's like a fascinating perspective for me because like when I listen to Anna Begins and I think about listening to it as a 16 year old, I, related to the guy in that song. To me, that song is about having a friend that you are in love with and you're not really sure if it's being reciprocated.

And then maybe something happens where it's consummated or something happens romantic between the two and then she pulls away again. And there's that part of the middle of the song where he's like pleading with her almost to like explain to him like what do I have to do to make you love me and it's like I can even change my name if that's what you need you know and just to go back to what I was saying before about sadness and how some songs make you feel like you're in a movie and the begins makes me feel like oh this is what it's like to be realistically sad like there's something totally flailing about this song where you know like if you've ever been depressed and you've tried to express that to people

who aren't depressed, maybe this is just in your head, but you feel like they're pulling away from you because there's something almost repulsive about someone who's too sad. It's like people don't want to be around someone who's too sad because it's difficult. Especially a sadness that's like this, which is yearning. Because yearning is like people are turned off by need

and by yearning and wanting. And that's the specific, I would argue, brand of sadness in these counting crows. songs. Like, it really sounds like longing. And again, longing, people don't like it. It makes them uncomfortable. Exactly. And yeah, I think Duritz writes about that as well as anyone I can think of, that uncomfortable kind of yearning, which, yeah, some people are turned off by it, but if you've been in that position before, or even if you're in a time in your life where it makes sense in that moment, It's like forever after that, you're going to feel connected to that song because it's like, it's almost like that song or that record was the only thing that understood you at that moment.

You mean like if you were 12 and you had acne and braces and frisball hair and your name was Yossam and Salick? Oh, man. Do you mean, like that? Or if your name was Stephen Heighton. I mean, you were almost describing me except I'm a little bit older and the hair is a little bit different. But yeah, exactly. So we're just two broken teenage losers still all these years later. That's why we still love these songs.

It's so true. I even got hot and it doesn't even matter. My stupid personality is cemented. Okay, so I want to hear, I saw on your playlist that you have around here. Because I think besides Mr. Jones and my memory might not serve correctly, but I think that was one of the bigger radio hits for the county. Yeah, it was a song that they played on Saturday Night Live when they were on that show as that album really started to break. And I feel like it's the song, with the exception maybe of a Long December, like I feel like around here long December, maybe the two most beloved.

A long December is probably the most beloved at this point. And I'm sure we're going to play that later on here. You bet your bottom dollar that we're going to play that. Maybe we'll play it twice. It's my show. Absolutely. But yeah, around here is this Vision Quest song. It's like the Thunder Road of August and everything after. So yeah, we definitely need to hear it. That's a Bruce Springsteen reference. And I think producer Dylan will appreciate it. Let's hear Round Here. That was Round Here by counting crows. I have some questions and some comments. Do you want to start with more of a comment than a question?

Yes. Let's start with the comment. Okay, once again, I'm going to say, you know who else is close to understanding Jesus, and knows she's more than just a little misunderstood, and also has trouble acting normal when she's nervous? That's right. It's me. You did have this phenomenon in the 90s where you had male singer-songwriters who were comfortable writing about female characters. You know, Adam Durds did that, as you mentioned, like Eddie Better did that in a bunch of Pearl Jam songs. Sure. You mentioned the hoody and the blowfitting.

song. And I wonder if there's something about how if you're a man singing about a woman in distress, there's a different energy to that than men singing about men being in distress, you know, where it becomes almost like, if it's just men talking about men, it becomes potentially more of a toxic, angry dude type thing, which you definitely saw, like once Alt Rock got kicked to the curb by the end of the 90s and you got into the new metal stuff and it was more of like angry guys with their shirts off flipping the finger at everybody you know they did it all for the nookie yeah yeah like if you but if you're singing about women there's something where I think now we're talking about everybody it almost feels more universal it invites more people in

than just dudes being angry about being dudes what does that say about men A and B, interesting. Like, you could have just been your own vulnerable self, and you didn't have to hide. You didn't have to hide behind Maria, but I guess it was a different time. Yeah, exactly. Steven, we talked a lot about the songs and their emotion,

but I think we need to talk a little bit about exactly how big they were in culture from just this one album. and like who made them that big? Like what was the critical reception? What was the fan reception? Yeah, if you look at when August and everything after came out, it comes out in September of 1993. It's the week before in utero comes out,

the final studio album by Nirvana. So Cunning Crows is really getting going when Grunge is on the verge of collapsing in a very real way. You know, Kirk Cobain dies in April of 9th. 1994. And 1984 is really like when counting crows blew up. I mean, because I believe

Mr. Jones started getting played at MTV at the end of 93. And there was a steady rise where people discovered that record. It was the kind of album that I think for a long time people felt was almost like a secret. Even though they did get a lot of hype in the music industry. It was a grower, not a shower.

Exactly. It took a little while for it to blow up. I think they're wrongly grouped into the class of band that right or wrong is associated with very 90s music. Like who? That post-Nirvana, like alternative rock boom, you know, like a lot of one-hit wonder type bands, many bands that might end up being featured on this show that, because they're actually good bands, but they kind of get stigmatized because they were

so exposed for a couple years on the radio. And they all have like maybe one song that everybody knows and is, maybe a little bit sick of. Blues Traveler, Blind Melon, Live, Bush, bands that also sold millions upon millions of records. But I think now, again, I think somewhat unfairly in many cases, people to sort of relegate that to like, well, that's just 90s music, you know, that. Right.

We don't need to care about that anymore. Even though it's all kind of very different. Like these bands that you just listed are also, well, not many so, but quite different from each of. other. Exactly. So it really was, I think, there's a pretty diverse music scene, I think, at that time, where, like, lots of different kinds of artists had a platform where they could have a piece of, like, the pop music pie. This was before Starbucks sold CDs, but their CD would have been sold at Starbucks. Oh, my God. Yeah, absolutely. It would have slayed at Starbucks. Slade. And the amount of Frappuccino and August and everything after combinations that they would have sold would have been. epic um well okay so we've kind of situated how big they were but they weren't cool they weren't i don't i don't think again i was okay well i can speak to something and i talked about it a little in

the dave matthews band episode i had two CDs that i did not let anyone else know that i was privately listening to all the time because i was a punk who listened to punk music and you know fancied myself, whatever. But I had David Matthews band Crash, and I had the double disc of live across a wire. It was a Counting Crow's double live disc that had VH1 Storytellers session, which we played earlier, the Mr. Jones friend. Welcome to storytellers. And it had an MTV live at the 10 spot.

And I listened to those CDs so much, but I did not talk about it. You know who else was like a closet counting crows fan at that time? It was Tupac. I'm sorry, what? Yeah, Tupac loved August and everything after. Apparently when he was in prison, it was like one of the albums that he would play all the time. And he really looked at it as like a lyrical inspiration. Like he thought it was like beautiful poetry and it was something that he felt inspiration from when he was writing his own songs.

Damn, that's sick. They're incredible songs. And, you know, it's, does something have to be cool? You know, like, can't it just be good? I think coolness actively gets in the way a lot of the time. And I think really, if you look at the most timeless music, a lot of it was not cool in the moment. The things that were cool about in the moment, those things pass away. Like, it's ephemeral.

But if you have great songs, great songs always sound good. So I think relying on coolness can actually be a detriment to, you know, being the kind of music that we will talk about 30 years later. That was the most bandsplaining moment of my entire wife right there. Dadsplained. Where do you want to take us next, Steve? Like, what's the next song you want to hear from the Counting Crows, Uvra? I mean, we referenced this song already, but, you know, I feel like, you know, August and everything after gets so much attention.

And I feel like for a lot of people, even people who love Counting Crows, they don't really go beyond that album. True. Yeah. Steve, I know that we've already heard three songs off of August and everything after, but I just simply cannot abide us moving on from this album until we hear The Rain King. Yes. I think it's just called Rain King, but I put it, the The Rain King. He says the Rain King and the song. Yeah, I think it's so I think it's allowable.

One of the best yas too in rock history at the end. Exactly. Very boisterous. Yeah! Make sure you listen all the way through the yeah. This is Rain King. That was Rain King off August and everything after. I do need to come clean about something that in high school,

maybe freshman year of high school, I did write a poem that did plagiarize some of the lyrics of this song and pass the home as my own. I think it was the kind of thing where I didn't even realize I was doing it. You know, when like lyrics live in your mind and you just are like, oh, that's my original thought because you forget where they came from. Of course. And this will give you, dear listeners, a little insight into what I was like. I was a 14-year-old. The lyrics were, when I think of heaven, I think of dying.

Take all the time you need. Yeah, it's heavy stuff. It's heavy stuff. Also, I mean, we talked about it a little bit. A lot of bird and feathers references in the songs, in addition to rain references, which may be just reinforcing the counting crow's name. I don't know. me with some feathers in my hand down in new sea of pins and feathers on.

Oh, Marjorie's wings, fans are feathers and coquins and I'm feathered by the moon night. Yeah, I feel like Duritz had a thing for rain, for animals, and for like proper nouns. Like those are the cornerstones. Those are like the core ingredients of a, of an Adam Durit song. And yeah, he just went to that well a lot. But, you know, like many a great chef, he's able to take those ingredients and put them into different combinations and produce, you know, a beautiful dishes one after another out of these, you know, same core elements. So true. I love this song. So, Steve, that was what I was like in high school, a little bit off, if we're going to be honest.

A little bit of a poet. Love it. What were you like in high school? Well, you know, I was a budding music critic even then. Wow. That's funny. That is. And obviously extremely cool.

Reviewing records, putting grades on them. It was something I lived for when I was a teenager. I actually wrote a column for my local newspaper. And I have it right here. Wait, hold on. Just to clarify, this is not your high school newspaper. This is the actual town weekly paper. I was a professional already making $10.10.

Trematically overpaid for my opinions at this time. But it's okay. The headline is, crows are a thankful respite from the top 10. And I guess the premise of my review was me making fun of the pop charts and presenting County Crows as an antidote to what was going on in the pop world. Because if I may say, I was ahead of the curve on this record. This record was not that popular yet when I got into it. This was before Mr. Jones really became a phenomenon.

So I really this review, I think, helped break them in America, I think. I think you had a lot to do with this. And like, what town in Wisconsin was this? Just to remember. Appleton, Wisconsin. Appleton, Wisconsin. the epicenter. Yes, setting the tone.

Yes. I'm not going to read the whole review, although I know you want me to. I'll just read a couple of the concluding paragraphs. The band does have a breakout star, however. It's lead singer Adam Duritz. Incredible observation. Exactly.

Can I, exactly. It's like, you know, on August. He shows himself to be a remarkable singer, songwriter, and personality. At times, Duritz is a lot like a combination between Michael Stipe and Eddie Vedder, lacking only their tiresome pretensions. I apologize to Eddie and Michael if they're listening for that shot. Of course, the best things about the album are the great songs.

Mr. Jones, Rain King, and Sullivan Street, just to name a few, are already classics in my mind. Their melodies are breathtakingly unforgettable. And I was literally out of breath when I wrote, that paragraph, by the way, because my breath was literally taken away by the melodies on this album. If Counting Crows doesn't go platinum someday,

it'll be a small tragedy. They certainly deserve to. August and everything after was perhaps the best album released last year. Grade A. Steve, just quick question. Were you popular?

Surprisingly not. surprisingly not. Were you a fun teenager? Did you attend parties? I'd like to think that I'm younger now than I was when I was 16. I was a very intense young man. But, you know, credit where it's due, I think that review is spot on.

I would still agree with the melodies on this album being breathtakingly beautiful or whatever I said. breathtakingly unforgettable, which I don't know what that means. Breathtakingly unforgettable. Well, that was gorgeous and thank you for sharing it. You're welcome. With me and the listeners. It is now time to move on to recovering the satellites. I feel like the next album, recovering the satellites,

is at least as good and maybe even better than August and everything after. And my exhibit A in that case would be, a long December, which we referenced this earlier. I feel like a long December is now maybe the most beloved song in their canon. I don't know if it's the most streamed on Spotify, but I would bet that if it's not. Yeah. But I bet it will eventually be a long December. Yeah, because every December starting December 1st at 7 a.m., I start playing that song at least four five times a day for the

entire month right up until December 31st. And so me personally, I'm adding to those streams every year. Can we start this, like with this episode to think of along December as like a holiday song? It's not a holiday specific, but just a song that you listen to in December because it's better than any holiday song of any religious denomination. It's totally pertinent to the month. Also, most holiday songs are misleadingly cheerful when in fact the holidays are violently depressing. And so that I'm with you. It does fit. I'll put that right up at the top of my holiday playlist

next to Justin Bieber and Buster Rhymes' rendition of a little drummer boy, which does slap. Okay, let's hear Long December. I mean, nah, nah, nah, yeah. That was a long December by the Counting Crows. I need to point out that producer Dylan, whose silence on this episode has been deafening, has no familiarity somehow with Counting,

Crow's songs, except I guess the song accidentally in love from the Shrek soundtrack. Maybe I'm in love, love, think about it every time I think about it. Which I guess, are we 100, Steve? I don't know. Like, is, I just assumed that, like, they were so culturally pervasive. Like, maybe if you don't know the songs, you would have to have heard Mr. Jones. But I guess I'm wrong. I guess I'm old and out of touch.

I don't know. Yeah, it's funny that she brings up the Shrek soundtrack because I feel like that probably is the only knowledge that a generation has of Counting Crows. And there's the song in that movie called Accidentally in Love, which is, you know, it's a fine pop song. And I don't dislike it that much, but it is an interesting thing with this band where they've always, I think, after their first record, you know, they had so much success with that. There was this weird dichotomy in their, in their music where it was like super personal songwriting. But sometimes the production is like very like geared toward the radio and having hits. Right.

And jangly. Yes. And there, there is a part of me like if I were the, if I could be the Rick Rubin to Counting Crows, I would say don't do that. Like just put Adam Duritz at a piano, have him saying nah, nah, nah, nah, have them write like, you know, that great verse at the end of that song. The other, I guess the winner makes you laugh a little slower, makes you talk a little lower about the things you couldn't show her. It's an amazing line. The whole verse is so good. Just write great songs.

I just, I feel like they were chasing hits. Yes, but no. I make this argument a lot because my love of 90s jangly music is well documented. But that was just the sound of the time, right? So it's like the songs on their own are incredible. And I make this argument. I was searching and I didn't find anything. But again, I maybe didn't search long enough to see like if there were like covers of counting crow's songs by other artists that had kind of strip them

down. They do it for themselves on those live albums so you can already hear it. But like I think a lot about like gin blossoms, for example. They're having a resurgence. I think people are finally recognizing how brilliant the songs are. But there's a cover of Allison Road by Tim Presley, who's a garage rock guy who's, you know, from white fence. And I think he was actually also in the fall maybe. But anyways, he did a white fence cover of Allison Road. And it's really beautiful. And it's a like because all the 90s alt jangle rock production is removed and then you just hear the song. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, I'm, I'm with you for the most part because I'm totally a child of the 90s. So the glossy production on some of these records, I've lived with them for so long that I, they're just a part of the record. So I love them for what they are. But I guess I just listen to it sometimes with the ears. of someone who didn't grow up with that. Yeah, totally. And I feel like sometimes it would benefit from that.

And even recovering the satellites, that record came out my first semester, my freshman year at college. And I love that record so much because Adam Gertz was singing about being on the road. And I felt like I was on the road. Like, I felt like I was away from home. And I felt lonely. And so, like, in daylight fading, when he's like, you know, I'm waiting for the telephone to tell me that I'm alive, you know, like that

lyric hit me really hard because I was like, I'm waiting for my girlfriend to call me so I can feel less lonely. When I think back to 96, there were so many albums by bands that were popular just a few years earlier that didn't do well at all because it was the beginning of like a new time. Right. You could be a band like Connie Crows that sells seven million copies in 1994. But then by 96, it was like, well, it's new metal time. It's boy band time. Like, these alt rock bands, it was sort of like they were over already. And it kind of changed the trajectory of like a lot of people's careers, even though they still kept making really good music. Well, like, barely anybody sells seven million records now. And I think that's maybe the,

it's just, it's just so different. I was going to ask you something. Yes, ask me. This might be good. Nobody ever asked me questions. What about me? Maybe I want to be asked questions. Have you listened to any Counting Crows albums? Like, how deep do you go into their catalog? That is a good question. Okay, so I'm, like, really familiar with the first two albums.

I've spent some time with... This Desert Life? Yeah, because there's some really... There's some fucking bangers on this Desert Life, which we'll get to, like, Mrs. Potter's Lullaby. Honestly, past that, I haven't... I haven't done a lot of listening. I feel like I can defend any Counting Crows album,

but I would say for sure that this desert life should be put in the same class as the first two albums. I feel like if you are into Counting Crows, you ride with the first two. And then after that, I think a lot of people are like you. I think they fall off after that. But I would definitely stump for this desert life being an essential. album. I can make cases for the other ones, but like this desert life, I think for sure, I would say, belongs on the A-Team of Counting Crow's albums. Before we move on to this desert life, I just am going to put my foot down and insist that we hear Angel of the Silences. Here is Angels of the

silences. That was Angels of the Silences. What a song, Steve. What a song. Really like the counting crows at their most rocking. You don't really think of them being like a hard riffing band and they're not really for the most part. But this was them, I think, discovering Pearl Jam and maybe wanting to do their own version of that but in a more sensitive folk rock guise. Let's now move on to this desert life. Steve, I didn't spend a ton of time with this desert life. Talk to me about this album. So, yeah, this record came out in 1999.

It's their third record. And it's an album that I think, again, if you are truly in the Counting Crows community, this is an album that I think a lot of people hold in high esteem. All the members of the Counting Crows community, we see you and we salute you. Yes, yes. We're giving you a big bear hug in this episode. There was a hit song off this record. It's called Hanging Around, which is the first track.

And I feel like you may still hear that on like adult contemporary alternative rock radio. You know, if that format still exists, I think that song did pretty well there. You know, it's funny because I love this desert life, but I always skip hanging around. And maybe that's just me. Yeah, maybe that's just me being a snob and not wanting to hear the big radio hit. I think it's also because I want to hear the next song, which is like one of the best songs on the record, which is Mrs. Potter's

lullaby. I think maybe it's less about hanging around and me just being excited to hear Mrs. Potter's lullaby. I also feel like this does her life. The thing I like about it is that it is like one of their more experimental kind of like weirder records, at least like weird for counting crows, except for hanging around. Like hanging around is like the radio song.

It's more straightforward. And I think I kind of want to get into like the rest of the record, which is a little bit stranger. Yeah. I hear you, but I disagree. Actually, no, I hear you. And I don't even disagree. I just want to hear hanging around. Let's listen to hanging around.

Let's put on hanging around. That was hanging around by the Counting Crows, which might be the second most likely to be heard in a CVS counting crow song after Mr. Jones. Don't you agree? I think in the... I think also I'll say it right now. My favorite genre of music is CBS core. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, and I actually feel like hanging around is number one for CBS slash Walgreens slash grocery stores, at least in my personal experience.

I feel like hanging around even more than Mr. Jones comes up. And maybe it's because it's a little more upbeat. Yeah, it is. really like I can picture myself just gliding that shopping cart down the aisles of the rafts like living and I'm like yeah I'm right here on the corner saying where have you been I've been waiting for you like saying it to the nutritional yeast as I throw it in the cart it's a feel good song it's the full spectrum of human experience here you know I think that's the point you know whether you're high off your ass or you are you know having existential breakdown

And counting crows can bridge that gap for you and help you get through whatever experience you're into at the moment. Exactly. Well, since you said it before, you know, we're going to hear it. Let's move on to Mrs. Potter's Lullaby, which I also do love. Okay, that was Mrs. Potter's Lullaby off of this desert life. A lot of the songs are like the song we just heard, which is there's some like real kind of non-pop moments on it. There's another song on this record called Colorblind, which is in the movie Cruel Intentions. I'm impressed.

Well, I'm in love. Pull me out from inside. Which, you know, showed again that even when Counting Crows weren't the hippest thing, they could find a way to infiltrate big important culture. Like, are you in Cruel Intentions fan? I mean, that movie is amazing. Of course. Producer Dylan says a cool movie, but maybe not as cool as Trek, which we'll deal with you later, Dylan. Let's, I want to hear colorblind because I love that song.

And I think it's like kind of an important contrast actually to both Mrs. Potter's lullaby and if we are going to hear hanging around, hanging around. So here is colorblind. That was colorblind by Counting Crows. Ooh. Yeah, it really, it hits. It hurts. That's a heavy one.

Yeah, there's some heavy songs on this record. there's another song I really love that I'm going to beg you to play called Speedway that I really love. And, you know, one of the things that we've touched on this a little bit in this episode, but one of the things that I think is really interesting and kind of like tragic about Adam Duritz is that he has this, he has this condition called depersonalization disorder. And it's like a mental illness, like where you don't feel like you are in your own body or like living your own life. It's like you're an observer of like yourself, like living elsewhere, but you feel very detached from your experience. And this is something that he was diagnosed with in 2008, but he obviously lived with that for a really long time without really knowing what it was. And to me, it's it's almost like this Shakespearean twist with him that he's this person who writes so intensely. about his own feelings, but in a way, at least in moments of his life, he's more like an observer of his

own feelings. Like he's not in his own life sometimes. And he's talked about how terrifying that is. And I feel so bad for him when he's talked about, I actually interviewed him about this once. And at the time, he was like on seven different medications and he was weaning himself off from it. And he was very open talking about this. And he's talked about this in other interviews as well. But it makes me think of the song Speedway, which is actually one of my favorite Counting Crow songs. And there's a line in the song where he talks about how, you know, you don't know how I feel. You know, I have to go away and find myself because people can't connect with me. And he also has problems connecting with himself too.

I mean, like how alienating must that be, you know? I think that's just such a incredible thing in his songs. Wow, I actually didn't know that about him. That's really cool that he's been so open publicly about it since so many people struggle with mental illness and stigma. I just feel like it's also like exactly what you were saying. It's like this poetic thing of feeling feelings too deeply, which you can hear so much in the songs and the mind's efforts to escape that pain. Yeah, I think that's right. there's also something about being a writer too, where it's your job to step outside the world and observe things.

And in a weird kind of way, maybe that has allowed him to write these songs where he can write so plainly and eloquently about what it's like to be in these situations because there's something in him that forces himself to take a step back. And I think that really comes across in this song Speedway, which to me is like one of the most profound songs about, again, feeling depressed. You know, just evoking what that experience is like. I feel like this song is such a powerful example of that. All right. Let's hear Speedway off this desert life. Okay, that was Speedway off this desert life. That's a really beautiful song. Yeah, I feel like we have to take a moment here to put ourselves back together after that song. I hope we're not bumming everyone out with this episode. I feel like it's getting heavy here. We bum everyone out with every episode.

Steve, that's what we do here at Bansplain. We bum people out. You know, especially in the context of what we were just talking about, that song is especially powerful. And I think the lyrics seem so honest. And I was thinking while I was listening to it, like, I wonder. if it was delivered in a different vessel, how it would be received. Like, how do you mean? Like, kind of touching on what we were talking about earlier, where, like, how some of the, like,

stylizing of this band, and particularly Adam Duritz, worked for them in the beginning by making them memorable, but worked against them in the long run, by almost giving them a sense of uncoolness past what they deserve. Like, you know, they became cartoonish in, you know, in how they were perceived for a long time after. And that sort of like stole from their legacy or from like how good these songs actually are. Yeah, I mean, I think, again, with Counting Crows, there's so many songs that to my ears are just undeniably good. You know, if you like this kind of music. I don't know how you could really not appreciate that song,

but there is baggage with this band that I think gets in the way of people appreciating that. You mentioned them being turned into a cartoon. I mean, they're associated with the Shrek soundtrack. I mean, they literally became cartoons in that regard. Or, you know, maybe this isn't something we should bring up on a pro-counting Crow's episode, but for the sake of showing both sides, I mean, they did do a terrible cover of the Joni Mitchell song, Big Yellow Taxi, that unfortunately is like one of their most played songs. Nobody's perfect, Steve.

They're not. But my point is that things like that, unfortunately, you know, even if they might have gotten in some shine in the long run. because I think Big Yellow Taxi was like a pretty nice size hit for them. It does the track, I think, from some of these deep cuts that people don't bother hearing because they think, oh, that's the band that was on the Shrek soundtrack or they're the ones who did that Joni Mitchell cover. Yeah. But hopefully that will change because of this episode. Because of this massively influential podcast.

Absolutely. I think his voice is so distinctive. and because I've spent so much of my life listening to it, it feels like a really comforting thing for me. But also because it's so distinctive, do you feel that that, because that can be off-putting for people, you know, like distinctive voices,

they're, I'll say the metaphor I say a million times on here, they're like cilantro, you know? You love it or you hate it. It tastes like soap to you. Yeah. Well, it's distinctive in a very, very sort of specific way that is, I think, polarizing to people. Because, I mean, every great

singer has a distinctive voice. I mean, that's part of like what makes great singers great. They don't sound like everybody else. They sound like just who they are. But I think... Some people have distinctive voices that don't sing great, like Bob Dylan. That's true. Exactly. And I would say, you know, like... I mean, the reason why Bob Dylan is a great singer for his songs is that he's emotionally expressive. Like, he can... communicate the emotional truth of his songs. And I think Duritz does the same thing. He's just doing it in a context that on one hand is really sad, which turns people off, and also very commercial. You know, like at their best, they sold a lot of records. They were a poppy band. They

weren't, you know, like the indie rock hero that sells, you know, 10,000 records and gets discovered, you know, a decade or two later and has credibility because of that. You know, this was a band that was played on the radio that sold millions of records that connected with just regular people. There was no sort of specific scene that they were coming out of. I think so much of music is people wanting to put on a certain costume, you know, where they feel like, oh, I'm a punk now, or I'm into hip hop now, or I'm a metal head now, and this is my identity. There's nothing like that with counting crows. It's true. So, you know, we've talked about the dreadlocks here. He's, you know, those are gone. And he's still writing songs. They have this new EP that is coming out soon or at the time of this episode, it will be already out. The Buttersweet. Yes, the Buttersweet. So, you know, he's still going on. I mean, he's a survivor, you know, which is great. Yeah, I've interviewed him a couple of times. And the thing with Duritz is that, uh, along with being a really sensitive and smart and articulate person, as you would expect,

he's also really self-aware. And he's talked about how he feels that Connie Crows got put into a certain box because they were so popular pretty early on. You know, like their debut record was huge and Mr. Jones was huge. And it was a time in pop culture where if you had like one big hit song, everyone could hear it and you could still be defined by it years or even decades later

so I think he understands that but you know this is a band that they tour all the time they do really well on the road all their albums that they put out usually debut in the top 10 if not high you know your friend Yasi saw them not two years ago

with live opening and it was gorgeous and wonderful yeah I saw that same tour I saw that same tour. It was packed. You know, like thousands of people were there. So they're doing their thing and this band still means a lot to many, many people out there. And again, it's because of the songs, which is how it should be. I think there's an interesting thing happening. And I don't want to call it like revisionist history, but where some of these bands that we've talked about are sort of being seen in a different, through a different lens now. many years later. Like, you know, John Caramoniker wrote that huge piece in the New York Times about hooting the blowfish and about who eating the blowfish and they're, you know, really a fantastic band and they should have been more, you know, critically well received. And, you know,

gin blossoms that I mentioned earlier, I think in a lot of like hip and cool rock person circles are being, you know, seen from a different angle and really appreciated it. But then there's other artists. that I don't know if that'll ever happen for, which like we talked about David Matthews band. Where do you think counting crows falls in that, you know, in that role of the dice? You know, I feel like there's a disconnect sometimes between how this band is written about and discussed and how they're actually perceived among just regular people. I think sometimes, you know, among music critics, there's always going to be a sexy angle to finding an artist from the past that no one else has said nice things about

and now you're going to be the person to resuscitate them. You always want to be the first person to say something's good or the first person to say something's bad if you're a music critic. You know, you want to be at the front of the line. With Counting Crows, I, you know, I don't know if that will happen necessarily. I do feel like there's a nice, steady, level of appreciation for this band among certain music writers and I'm maybe at the top of the list as far as being at Counting Crow's booster.

That's why you're here, babe. That's why I'm here. And just regular fans. And I'll put us in there. People like you and I who grew up with this music who still appreciate it, as well as younger people, like young punk and emo musicians who have name check Counting Crows. And, you know, as an inspiration and as something that they, that they listen to and really enjoy. And I'll go back to something I've said many times.

I think it just comes, it goes back to the songs. You know, and we've played a lot of great songs in this episode. You can't argue with a great song. You know, you can argue about whether something's cool or not or whether something, you know, is trendy or if, you know, it's fashionable or whatever, all those sorts of things. but you put on a song and it affects you or it doesn't, you know, and you don't really have a choice. Amen. You mentioned some musicians that name check Counting Crows as fans. I think we can include the guy from the Gaslight Anthem, which you said earlier, as a big Counting Crows fan.

I think I know of a lot more also that people would be surprised. we're going to hear later from Jeremy Bollum from Tuchet Amore, kind of a surprising fan. Also, famously, Tusha Amore has a song that name checks a Counting Crow's song. It is the song Exit Row off their album Lament, and the lyrics are, suffering has no purpose. Round here is an almost perfect song. And then not a musician, but like, just recently heard Bobby Bones, radio personality and American Idol host, I believe. Huge Counting Crows fan.

And Bill Simmons. Bill Simmons, huge Counting Crows fan. Seth Myers is a huge Counting Crows fan. I've chatted with him about Crows in the past, and he's had Adam Duritz and Counting Crows on his show before. Well, speaking of notable and just beautiful and gorgeous fans, it's that time of our episode where we have gathered some of these fans and their thoughts and feelings about counting crows. We're going to listen to them now. Strap in, Steve. I fucking adore the counting crows. They're like old friends who are always there at the perfect time.

August and everything after was the first CD I bought for myself. at Keystone in the Crossing, Indianapolis, Indiana's Fashion Mall in 1993. I pretty much taught myself to play guitar by playing along with that record. I remember thinking that it sounded like a record that had always existed,

but at the same time it sounded wholly new. It sounded like nothing else that was on the radio at that time. And I just fell in love with the band, fell in love with the playing, fell in love with Dürz, his writing. Adam Zericks are just like startlingly direct and honest and raw in a way that has always been very important to me as a writer

and a lot of the way that I try and write myself is to try and tap into that sense of like almost bravery, I want to say, the bravery and the honesty of just telling it like it is and talking about the things that are happening in your head and your heart. It's like just deep enough to where like a young 20 year old might understand what's being talked about and like feel very insightful, but not so out there that, you know, It was hard to understand. I saw the Mr. Jones video and was mesmerized by the cardigan wearing dreadlocked, Adam Duritz, and it was enthralled by the fun lyrics about a past band member who's made the sound like the Dosecchi's most interesting man in the world.

Before we're released now, August and everything after would be classified as an Americana record. And live, Crows turned these Americana songs, these songs based in folk traditions into super. sprawling, beautiful, theatrical epics, and Duritz inserted these rambling, brilliant monologues into the songs. It was just a whole other spellbinding thing. I could speak all day on the impact and inspiration Adam's lyrics have had on me, how he can paint a scene in your head with his bittersweet cinematic words and mention the incredible songs that came later in the career, like Cowboys or Colorblind. Mrs. Potter's Lullaby, please, I mean, fucking come on.

Like how does, how is that written? It makes no sense. It's so beautiful and just so transcendent. They're hugely important to me, and they run through pretty much everything I do. I feel like most of what I know about songwriting comes to them. I wrote a book about someone I am dedicated to Adam. I am sincere when I say they belong in the rock and roll hall of fame.

This is a band that belongs in the rock and roll hall of fame. I'd like to end this by thanking the counting crows for existing for all of us. Thanks, guys. Wow, Steve. I feel like a lot of like gorgeous thoughts there. And my main takeaway is that all counting Crow's fans like myself and yourself are just huge dorks. Huge dorks. My people here kept it real and kept in keeping with my thoughts about that.

Huge dorks, but also fearlessly emotional and passionate about this band. And the thing that strikes me listening to all those fan testimonials, is that I think contrary to like maybe how counting crows are popularly received, you know, people think of them as being like the Mr. Jones band or being like this 90s act. But the people who love them, I mean, this band's music has like embedded itself in their lives and like threaded through so many different experiences. And it's not just a nostalgia thing I don't think. I think it's because these songs and, you know, Adam Duritz's lyrics and the shows that they've seen

it really moves people and it tells them something about their lives that I think they haven't gotten from any other band. So I think that's a great testimonial to the impact that this band has had on the people who love them. I mean also, I'm

just like really struck by the fact that Jeremy from Tuchet Amori was one of those voices because I don't know if you've ever heard Tuchet Amory but they are not the kind of band that you would think was inspired by the counting crows. They are a hardcore band. They are.

They're a hardcore band, but there is that common link, I think, of emotional honesty. It's so true. And sort of unflinching, exposing of your feelings, even if you feel like people might make fun of you for it. You know, and I think in that sense,

I can totally see how a band like Tuchet Amore would be inspired by Counting Crows because that emotional fearlessness that exists on their records, I think also exists on the best Counting Crows records. Absolutely. It was also interesting to hear from Frank Turner there that his music is so influenced by them. So everyone, be sure to check out Frank Turner, Tusha Amori, and also Casey Anderson, another musician you heard from who Adam Durrance loves. We've now reached the sad end.

of our episode. Steve, our time has come to a close. Yes. Thank you so much for coming here and talking about counting crows with me at length, with honesty, with emotion. Thank you for listening to me talk about counting crows. Believe it or not, there's not many people that want to hear me talk for a long time about counting crows. So really, I mean it the pleasure was all mine. I guess we'll find out how many people want to hear us talk about counting crows. Crows after this show comes out. What song do you want to leave our listeners with as like a last closing Counting Crows gift to send them all their way? Well, one song that we didn't play already that is maybe in my top five of Counting Crows songs is another tune from August and everything after.

Perfect blue buildings. just a beautiful song. I think it's a great example of everything this band does well. So I can't think of a better way to send people off than with this song. Perfect. Thank you so much, Steve, for being here. Check out Steve's books. We'll have them in the show notes. And you know what?

Get you a little oblivion, baby. And come back next week. Here is Perfect Blue Buildings. If you liked what you heard today, subscribe for more episodes of Bansplaine, only on Spotify. Our guest today was Stephen Hayden. You can follow him on Twitter at Stephen underscore Hayden and get his books anywhere fine books are sold. Huge thanks to the Counting Crows mega fans you heard on this episode. Eric Dynes, Jeremy Bolln, Cole Cuchner, Casey Anderson, Patton Hughes, and Frank Turner.

Bansplain is a Spotify original show. This episode was produced by The Wind Bellows. Beneath My Wings, producer Dylan, aka Dylan Tupper Rupert and edited by Michael Hardman with help from Casey Simonson and Tari Miller. Executive producers for Bansplain are Gina Delvac and me, Nasi Salick. Our gorgeous and catchy theme song was composed and performed by Bethany Cozantino and Jennifer Clayman, and graciously recorded by Carlos Delaguerza in Los Angeles, California. Special thanks to Felipe Ghihermino, Robert Adler, Leah Edwards, David McDonough, Dana Meyerson, Jessica Hopper, and the framed drawing of Dave Matthews I got on Deepop,

whose spirit continues to guide this entire show. Come back every Thursday for a new episode of Bandsplain, only on Spotify. That's a wrap, babes.