Bandsplain - Dave Matthews Band Redux: Part 2 with Grayson Haver Currin

Episode Date: May 25, 2023

Part 2 of the DMB resplaining picks up right where we left off. Dave and the guys are jammed up recording, and things get a little off the rails from there. Host Yasi Salek and returning guest Grayson Haver Currin take the listener from the early internet confusion of the Lillywhite Sessions to present day and the band’s latest album, 2023’s Walk Around the Moon.  Follow Grayson Haver Currin on Twitter @currincy Listen to the songs we detail in the episode HERE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You may find this hard to believe, but 60 songs that explain the 90s. America's favorite poorly named music podcast is back. With 30 more songs than 120 songs total. I'm your host, Rob Harvilla, here to bring you more shrewd musical analysis, poignant nostalgic reveries, crude personal anecdotes, and rad special guests, all with even less restraint than usual. Join us once more on 60 Saws that explain the 90s every Wednesday on Sunday. Spotify.

What's with this band anyway? I don't get it. Can you please explain? Wait, like, Bansplaine? Hello and welcome to Bansplaine. I am your host, Yossi Salick. This is a show where I invite an expert guest on to explain a cult band or iconic artist to me and to you.

This week, we're back with Dave Matthews band Part 2 with my guest, Greece and Haver-Curran. and we are where we left you off, hanging off of the cliff, knuckles white, fingers getting weak as we get into the juiciest part of the David Matthews band story. Let's go. Dave Matthews band goes into the studio, but it's not the studio. What they do is they buy a massive building in Charlottesville to record in. It used to be a dance hall. It has low ceilings.

And apparently it is not a great place to record live music. There is no separation between the room and the soundboard, no glass. It's in the same room. Stephen Lillywhite is on deck. They are trying to make a new album, okay? In a two-hour-long interview with Matt Norlander for his podcast, Records and Riffs with Steve Lillywhite, about just this topic, because I think he went on to talk about every other Dave Matthews band thing he was involved with too, but on just this topic, two hours, he points out also, I think real heads no more I'm going with this, but he points out that recording in your hometown is always worse than recording elsewhere because then when you record somewhere else, you travel, it's a holiday. It's like you're on a vacation, but when you're at home, it becomes a job.

This is, I'm setting up what eventually becomes the Lily White Sessions. is the first album Tim Reynolds is not involved in in any way. David is using a 12 string for the first time ever, perhaps to make up for a lack of Tim, I don't know. Maybe most importantly, allegedly from several sources, including David himself, he was very depressed at this time, Dave, and drinking maybe more than he usually did. He had, I think, experienced a couple more truly traumatic deaths. I believe his uncle had passed away from alcoholism and then also his stepfather. So all this to say the vibes are fucking bad, bitch. Okay, the vibes are off. They did interviews about it much later down the line and we'll get to why they did that. But here's what Stefan Lassard said.

He said, we all felt kind of closed in. After a while, it seemed like we were playing more baseball and riding more ATVs because no one wanted to go into the dark studio and get into this mood. We were spinning in our spot and not moving anywhere musically. This is Carter Beaufort. It got to a point for me where I was like, man, I need to say something because I don't know if I can take this. Leroy agreed and said, everybody else seemed like it was cool, so I'm just going to go with the flow. Nobody wants to bring bad vibes and negativity in. So they have all these songs that they're working on, many of which will appear later on busted stuff.

they're darker in vibe a little bit. Oh, yeah, much darker. Because Dave is in a darker place. And basically what happens is they stop recording. It's not happening. They stop recording to go on tour. And they're like, oh, we're just going to take a break and we'll come back. And they just don't come back.

And apparently Carter Beauford basically finally went to their A&R, Bruce Floor, and was like, bro, this sucks, basically. Like, that's not working. Like, the album is not coming together. And I don't know exactly what was said. But then Korn Kapshaw rings up Steve Liliwhite and is like, you're fired. We're not finishing the album. I think it's interesting to say, or it's important to realize, too, that, like, we've talked

about this sort of happy hippie band, right? And, like, that's sort of how they are presented. That's how they're seen commonly. and then they make this relatively dark record before these crowded streets. And relatively dark, of course, is being relative. And it didn't, you know, it sold really well, but it was, and it, you know, not Titanic off the top of the board charts, but it wasn't like this smash, like, it wasn't a level up really in terms of sales or anything.

And then they start to go even darker and even deeper into these sort of strange sound worlds. and I think if I were a record, you know, what a record label is won't. They won't growth. That's all they sort of crave. And if you're not selling as many as you sold last time, it was wrong. And I don't think that there was any belief or inclination if you listen to the songs that eventually come out of these sessions. There's not a huge hit here.

Like there's maybe a single. There's maybe two singles. But there's not a crash. There's not a stay even. And I think. that certainly plays into it too. It wasn't like the record label was like, hell yeah, let's keep going with that song.

And I think that's an important part of this record too. Yeah, I think apparently the record label slash ANR was kind of up in there being like, where's the hit? Where's the smash? I'll tell you what, Goss and T. Steve Lillywhite is not a big fan anymore of Bruce Flore. He had some choice words for this man called him. a coward week.

Also randomly tells the story about how he had heard that he was just this mega fan that would come to the studio but could not clap in time. He said, this bitch can't even clap in time. And he said, everyone made so much fun of him that he went and got drum lessons because he was so embarrassed about not being able to clap in time. I'm simply reporting the news. Yeah, Steve was, Steve Louiswhite is not a fan of what happened with this record for obvious reasons. But I do think, I do think that he sort of benefits from it in a way because it only, I mean,

These recordings, of course, are known as the Lulowite Sessions. There was also a CDR labeled the summer so far. But, you know, like, the end of this record ends up enshrining his importance in the Dave Matthews Band. Because he's made three of the first four records. These records have all been enormous hits. And for a lot of people, this is sort of where the Dave Matthews Band changes in an irrevocable way. But I think these recordings are often gorgeous. I think some of these are the best, some of the best Dave Matthews band songs.

Well, I'm going to tell the story in order, but yes. Okay, so let's talk about it. So we're at this point. Dave Matthew says, I'm the principal songwriter. I'm singing things I came up with. But Carter was the one who spoke out that summer of the Lillia White sessions. He said, we need a change. I often choose not to speak my mind.

I do that in every part of my life. That's my shortcoming. But if Carter says we need to talk, we talk. So RCA and the management are like, it's done, bitch. Pack it up. We're not doing this anymore. Steve Lillywhite, goodbye, thank you. Steve Lillywhite is very upset.

Also, another part of this story is that Steve Lilly, remember how you talked about in the beginning that he could party with them because he was a partier? He had gotten sober now, so he is no longer partying with them. And so Dave's drinking buddy kind of becomes Steve Harris, who was the engineer on all these albums. That's kind of important for the future. But that's like who he's hanging and partying with. And Steve Lillywhite was like their designated driver who would like drop them off and pick them up or whatever. He also, Steve Luea also mentioned something much later that apparently one of the band members had a conceal and carry permit and brought a gun to the studio and him being extremely British was very weirded out by that and did not like it.

The vibes were bad is what I'm saying. And I think this also kind of goes back to something we were talking about with the Free of Scraud Street, which is also, where the Chicago Streets, which is also the first album. The first album, Louisville had ever recorded Sober. He'd just got out of rehab basically when they started. But, you know, I think it is also the perpetuation of that idea that, like, they're famous, they don't have as much time together. Everything is a bit more stressful. Everything's a bit more amplified. And they get in the studio and it's a bit overwhelming.

So, yeah, the vibes are, the energy is not good. So that ends. In August of 2000, Dave gets married, a tragic day for women everywhere. And then Dave goes right ahead and makes every day with Glenn Ballard right ahead. And when I say right ahead, he goes right the fuck ahead. He goes right on a plane to Los Angeles. And in nine days, writes most of this album with Glenn, the two of them, without any input from the rest of the band. What do you think about this choice of Glenn Ballard?

Let's unpack this first of all. Well, let's first talk about Glenn Bowler's past. Right. So Glenn Ballard obviously had just made, you know, a pretty big record that we just brought up. Jagged Little Pill by Alanis Morsehett. Remember her? Remember her? Do you remember her?

Yes. Do you remember her? She's dead now. So, I mean, he's made some pretty enormous records. He's worked with Michael Jackson. Oh, you mean like thriller? Is that what you're talking about? Thriller?

Not a big deal. So, you know, it's a weird. It's a big jump. Like, you know, Lily White is just like serious, you know, like starts off in punk rock, you know, this like serious kind of art rock fan. And then he's like, no, let's go make a pop record with Glenn Ballard. And I think the best thing you can say about Glenn Ballard in this period is that his hair looks fucking amazing.

Glenn Ballard is arguably the number one enemy of ants marching.org and nancy's. Dave heads everywhere. Really do not like Glenn Ballard. They fucking hate this man. They're like, fuck this bitch. And I'll tell you why. And they're not wrong. Every day is not, it's not an amazing album.

I mean, I think the thing that he sort of happens here is like, it's been the day of Matthews band. And then the day the band part becomes Glenn Ballard. And, you know, I think, you know, they famously sort of wrote out most of the parts. You know, all the songs are attributed to both of them. They wrote out just the two of them. And they wrote out most of the parts for the band to come in and play. And you have this sort of like world-class band who's just made their most collaborative. of album, this record where they play their asses off. And then you got this guy showing up and being like,

hey, let me write these parts for Carter Beaufort and for literally more and Stefan Lassar, who are great players. And it just doesn't work. It doesn't have that same energy. It has this energy that feels very much like it's canned. You know, like you just sort of open it up and dump it in like Folgers instant coffee. Yeah, I'm just kind of surprised. And listen, like all respect. This is clearly what David Matthews wanted to do. No one twisted his arm. No one forced him. No, no gun that was brought into the studio with a concealing carry permit was put to his head. Like, he simply, this is what he wanted to do. This was his prerogative. And he even says, like, I mean, he said in a Rolling Stone profile that year that he said not to be overdramatic,

but this album saved my life. So maybe when he was in the darkness, and we'll get to it because we're going to talk about those songs that came of that darkness. He needed something lighter. He needed to go towards pop, popier music and have a little weight taken off his shoulders. And, you know, who knows, right? Because it's not like this album's bad, right? There's some bright spots on this album. There are a few bright spots on it. I mean, I do think, I think what you said, the first time you said it, you said, this is what he wanted to do. And then you said this is what he needed to do. And I feel like the second one, I feel like the needed is more important here because, you know, they had sort of stalled out and reached this place where it felt like they were probably pretty frustrated with each other. Yeah.

You know, like, kind of going, not going through the motions of touring because, like, there were some pretty incredible shows in those years between before these crowded streets and every day. But it was maybe becoming a bit more of a job and a drag. And this gave them an out. It gave them a way to sort of make a record without really having. to do the hard work of making a record in that same way. Yeah. And yeah, the Space Between is a great song. It's a beautiful song.

God damn, damn, gorgeous, beautiful song. It's a beautiful song. The space between... A key thing to talk about with that song in this record in general is it's sort of the you talked about the 12th string that was on the Lilel White Sessions. This is sort of where we see Dave Matthews begin to play the electric guitar, and particularly like a baritone electric guitar. Of course he does, because Glenn Ballard was like, I just made Jagged Little Pill,

bitch, which real rock hours right now, crunchy guitars, let's go. I did it. That song could be erased. That song could be erased from the canon. I would be fine with that. You know, I had an, I did it bumper sticker on my truck when I was in high school, but I did not have a girlfriend. Clearly. Goes without saying.

Sorry, what you were saying about the electric baritone guitar? I mean, it's a huge, you know, like, this is a, on the first records with Steve blue-white. There is almost no electric guitar. You know, Tim Bernalts, an incredible electric guitar player, doesn't play electric guitar on these records. He plays electric guitar on before these crowded streets. And then suddenly, the whole fucking record, more or less, is written on a baritone electric guitar for every day. So it's a huge change from top to bottom. And it doesn't quite pay off. Like you mentioned, fans are outraged. I remember being a senior in high school, writing writing the term paper every day, every do.

And really trying to tell myself that this album was better than it was. And it's not, it's just, it's got some things on it, but it mostly doesn't. What's your favorite song on here besides the space between? I mean, every day is pretty good. It's a good song. It's like an uplifting. I don't mind when the world ends. Come with me.

We're going to be crazy. Sleep to Dreamer has a nice little melody, I think. Yeah, it's a nice little ditty. And I think every day is interesting, too, because it is a song that sort of had, it's the only song here that had existed before. So there was a song called Number 36. You know, Dave Matthews loves to number the songs, and name the songs for the number of which they were written.

It's again about South Africa. And then on this album, it turns into like this happy song with, is that Judah Friedlander in the music video? Is that right? I can't remember. Yes. The free hugs campaign or something. It is.

It's worth pointing out that this is like a real market, like, or grown up now, babe, like, for real. Like, I think that it was, like, establishing that on before these crowded streets is really important sonically. But now it's sort of like everything. It's slick. The cover art is like the slickest cover art we've seen yet. It has their photo on it. And then it's in black and white. Dave Matthews, the shorts are gone, bitch.

Is there a beaded necklace in sight? Absolutely not. Not a scrap of hemp. This man is wearing a gorgeous fine wool coat over what looks like a mock turtle neck, which I'm sure it might be cashmere. He's an adult. He is married. He's a husband. I believe he's also had children already.

No, he's about to have children. It's February 2001. He has children in August 2001. So he's being like, what's real David Matthews to you, sir, you know? Roy Moore on the cover of this album is also not wearing sunglasses, and that doesn't happen almost ever in the bands. He's always working, but Boyd is somehow still where he didn't get the memo. He's like, no, I got my glasses on, man.

It's cool. Carter specifically, and I can't speak for the rest of the band, but I did read a couple of quotes from Carter where he was quite annoyed about this album, and he did not like having to show up and just play as like almost like a session musician, when that's absolutely not what he's been for all these years. No, it's like buying a Ferrari to just, you know, drive in your neighborhood. It's like, it's terrible. I mean, he's like a, you know, you can accuse Carter Beaufort of like playing too much, being too active, which is certainly a criticism that's been lobbed against him.

But at the very least, he's like an inventive and interesting drummer. And on so much of this record, he's just asked to, like, beat the drums. And that's it. And it's kind of a bus kill. I'd be pissed too. Yeah. I was going to say a fun fact, but it's not particularly fun. It's just the fact that when the world ends was planned to be a single,

but it was meant to come out right after September 11th. And that seemed like a bad song to put out after September 11th. Another, again, not so fun fact is that after September 11th, the radio banned a bunch of songs that would feel inflammatory and crash into me was one of them. Isn't it interesting how we keep coming back? to... Well, this is actually more proof against your theory. Because they had to scrap their own single,

so I don't think that they were in on it. False fight. That's what I'm saying. I'm not even going to get into the reviews that much, because three and a half stars from Rolling Stone, it's like, how is this three and a half stars and before these crowds reaches three and a half stars? Cool.

Nothing you say means anything. The opening riff is a crusty stutter of guitar that Creed would kill the copyright, is what David Frick wrote. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You've got to write sentences. Okay, but he makes a kind of an interesting point that I wanted to ask you about. Because let's keep in mind, it is 2001, right?

So the state of rock music is pretty bleak. What's really thriving is Nickelback. Silver Side Up comes out in 2001 and the chokehold that this is how you remind me had on the radio for the decade. I've said this before, I'll say it again, because I think it's a fascinating fact. That was the most played song on the radio for the whole decade of 2000 to 2010. This is how you remind me. And the rest of the music that's pretty popular is pop, right? It's pink.

It's Shakira. It's Alicia Keys. It's Enrique Iglesias. It's Britney Spears. It's Destiny's Child. But then Creed, which kind of falls into the Nickelback camp. What David Frick is saying is, compared with the cheap thrills out there, not to mention the band's own previous records, the meaty classic rock orthodox. of everyday, is practically a revolutionary act. When the world ends, the space between and

so right are all blinding chrome and fat swagger, super buffed throwbacks to 1980s arena rock convention. Do you agree with that take? I don't think that take is wrong, but I think what they're trying to do, they do well here, right? Like, or what Dave Matthews and Glenn Bauer are trying to do here. They do well. You and I both could pummel half the songs off this record. They're hooky, they catch. That doesn't mean they're necessarily good songs, and they certainly have more to do with, like, the trends of that moment than something like Halloween or the stone certainly would. Right. But I don't think, like, it sounding more current makes it stand up over time. Yeah, I guess the point he is maybe making, and I think it is fair for us to consider,

is that they were trying, they were doing something different. Yeah, of course they were. You know, they were flexing a different muscle. I think it's less they and more him. More Dave, less the band. And I think that that's sort of where the problem shows up. And also, Santana is on this album. Carlos himself. Dave shows up on Supernational around this time, I believe.

Huge album. Yeah, it's a look, I think a lot of artists have this thing and it's not going to, This is not a fucking, this is a Captain Obvious statement, but that they don't want to do the same thing over and over again, right? Of course. Although some artists do. And my take on that is like both things are fine because it's impossible to remake an album. Like, even if you tried, you couldn't do it. Like there's this great story about there's an Eric Sati piece of music called vexations.

And it was, it's a short piano piece that's meant to be repeated 850. 40 times. And they did this in, I think in 1963, right? John Cage sort of had something to do with it. And for 19 hours, this exact same short piano piece was repeated. And the thing is, it was never the same because the players changed. The nothing, you can't repeat. So I always think about that when I think about when bands are like, well, we don't want to remake our first album. And it's like, bitch, you couldn't if you wanted to. Even if you set out to remake crap. You couldn't do it. It would be something different. But also if you want to, like, jump off the bridge and make a pop song with crunchy guitars,

a la Nickelback, be my guest. But antsmarching.org is not going to back you. They're not going to back you. I think it's a process question. So that, you know, like, basically the process was exhausting. The process sort of ran the risk of maybe breaking them up in what became the little white sessions. And so they just said, fuck the process. We'd rather stay a band.

Yeah. Yeah, and, you know, I think it's like a question that I've probably spent too much in my adult life thinking about is like what happens if this doesn't happen? Like what happens if they stay the course, go back to the studio and finish this really sad bastard album? I think the image of the Dave Matthews band a lot different. And maybe we're not sitting here talking about them also. Like, I think it could have gone a lot of different ways. But this is the course they chose. And I don't think that many people sit around and listen to every day very often.

I don't know that like when the 25th anniversary rolls around, a lot of people are going to be excited about the 25th anniversary of this record. Yeah. Truth be told, there wasn't a Dave Matthews band album that was going to come out in 2001 that was going to be as impactful as any of them before because it's 2001. Just the cultural landscape has completely changed. Sure. And every day is probably actually going to be the most because it has some poppy elements

that still sort of fit in. But like, I mean, you put out busted stuff in 2001? Yeah, I don't think, but I think if we think about like the Lily Life sessions as a whole and like the stranger moments there, I think this sort of inward turn, I don't think it would be as impactful in terms of sales. And I think like it would have probably hurt their sales and it would have hurt their like ticket sales for sure. But I do think they start, they perhaps turn into like this different and inward band.

I think the band they become for the next 20. years, if they continue to exist at that point, is much different than the band that they became instead. If they stick with those songs rather than White of California and write a record in nine days. I would agree with you if they had trashed those songs, but they didn't. We got them. We got an album. You know, we got an album that's not hugely different from the Lillowite Settins.

I mean, of course, there's differences, but the Lillian Chessons was never an album. It wasn't meant to be an album. It was taken out of context. Speaking of, let's go there. A month after every day comes out and ants marching.org is fucking pissed. It leaks. The Lili White Sessions, March 2001. Here's what happened.

Basically, a fan named Tom Griffin connects with this guy, Craig Knapp, who was the lead singer of Ants Marching, a very popular. popular and well-respected Dave Matthews band cover band. They connect on the message boards. And Tom Griffin's like, oh, I have this CD of everyday studio outtakes. And the whole thing was that like Ants Marching was a super popular DMB cover band because they would not just play album tracks. They would play like, again, things like that were studio outtakes, things that hadn't been put on real albums. They were real thorough. So Craig Knapp is like, oh, sick, awesome.

Tom Griffin sends them this CD that's labeled. you said it before, the summer so far, which is basically like not a fancy name. It was just how Lily White marked his things. Like the summer so far was these sessions. Now Craig Knapp throws that bad boy on the fucking disc man and he realizes what it is. He realizes that it's actually the Lily White sessions, which didn't have that name yet. Or maybe it did have that name because they had been talking about it. He goes ahead and tells the entire Dave Matthews.

these band message board community that he is in possession of this. People lose their goddamn minds. They freak the fuck out, demand that he releases it. Here's where it gets even more Detective Bosch hours. Apparently, when they ended the sessions, the masters went in a vault at DMB headquarters, locked away. Eight copies and eight copies only were burned. Here's who received them. Stephen Lillyway. Steve Harris, the engineer, A&R, Bruce Floor, and each member of the band. Lily White claims no other copies of the original discs existed, and they were actually really good quality and much better than what people were downloading. So whatever was leaked was a copy of one of the original disc. It wasn't the original disc. There's some conspiracy

that the leak came from Bruce Floor as like a marketing strategy. This is simply hearsay conspiracy. Bruce Floor adamantly denies this. What's more likely, and this is the story that I've heard a couple of different times, is that Tom Griffin, who was a college student, says he got it from a friend who had a ski house in Colorado. And this friend happened to have a member of Dave Matthews band staying at his ski house in Colorado. And while this member of Dave Matthews band was hitting the slopes. This friend surreptitiously copied the CD without telling him and then goes back to college and gives it to Tom. Now, Stefan Lassard does have a signature model Rossignoll snowboard. I'm just saying, he is the member of the Dave Matthews band that is a known snowboarder. So putting two and two

together, it's likely that could have been how it got. At the very least, got to Craig now. Now, here's another twist in the story. Sorry, Grayson, you know this, but I'm telling the people. Tell the people. Craig Knapp says, because he is an ethical and moral dude, he is the lead singer of Ants Marging, the premier Dave Matthewsman government. He says, I won't release the CD unless I get permission. Steve Lillywhite, by the way, has been active on ants marching.org or whatever, these

nansies. I don't know which one it was. Steve Lillywhite pops on there from time to time. He's part of the community. So he emails Steve Lilloo White. He has his email. He says, hello, Mr. Lilywhite. I thank you in advance for taking the time to read this email. I have unintentionally placed myself in a very precarious situation. About a week ago, I received an email from a DMB fan who claimed they had some unreleased material from the new Dave Matthews Band CD.

He asked if I wanted a copy and I said, yes, thinking it was going to be acoustic takes from every day. In any event, I received a package yesterday, and it was indeed the session that you and DMB recorded in Virginia. I love it very much. Excellent work. I am blessed to receive this gift. question for you is one of moral standards. I would really like to share these songs with the DMB trading community. However, I feel if the Dave Matthews band and Steve Lillywhite didn't release these songs, then what gives me that right? I don't want to disrespect the band or yourself. I guess my question is simply this. Am I disrespecting the Dave Matthews band and Steve Lily White by making these songs available? I would really appreciate a response when you get a chance.

Now, this man, Craig Knapp, goes ahead and posts that whole fucking email. He's being world transparent with the message board community and tells them, okay, I've asked if he says yes, I'll release it. A very crafty message board fan does, he does a trick, okay? He goes ahead and spoofs Steve Lillywhite's email address, which I believe was something like silly white. And he makes an email address that's like silly white, but with a one instead of an eye, writes back to Craig Knapp and is like,

I was able to contact some people, and we came to the conclusion that because of Dave Matthews' band's loyal fan-based following, honesty and patronage toward the band over the years, releasing these tracks should be, let's say, sort of a treat to the trading community, keep in touch and enjoy. And so Craig Knapp goes ahead and releases it, thinking he has the blessing of Steve Lillywhite,

who absolutely did never send this email. And that's how you get the fucking Lily White sessions in the world. Did you download it? Did you partake? this in these illegal shenanigans. I don't know what kind of question that is. Of course I downloaded it. Yes. I had a burned CDR.

I've downloaded it multiple times over the years because you know it'll fall, you know, get a new computer and like one day I'm like, okay, what's that about? So I and the most recent time I did these liner notes that went, the musician Riley Walker was

decided to cover the Lillowite sessions in their entirety. So I went there and some liner notes for And that's the most recent time I've downloaded it. But you can still find it, of course, very easily. And it's interesting work. And I think it's also like it is such an interesting debate about access and the ease of access that we now have as fans to share things that maybe bands don't want shared.

And mistakes happen. And mistakes happen. And what's our responsibility as fans? What's your take on that, Yassie? I would be pissed as hell if somebody leaked a band's play. episode that was not done, but not done being edited. I would burn it to the ground. You would.

Yes. Dave Matthews just mentioned more gracious with me, but I mean, he said that basically he would never complain about fans wanting music because that's a blessing. And he's right, right? Like, it's a blessing that anyone even listens to this show when I'm this annoying. It's a true miracle, honestly. You're not annoying. You're a national treasure.

Thank you. I think I can be both at the same time, TBQ. But anyways, but he was also like, but yeah, like it, it sucks because those were not ready for consumption. That's not how we wanted it. We make art and the art needs to be done for us to release it. Like, it's our choice kind of thing. It's kind of like painting a picture.

I've said this a thousand times. And then loving it, but saying, but I can't finish it, I got to put this down. And then go and walk into a gallery somewhere and go, damn, it's like. up, you know, and people looking at it. It's like, what happened? How did it get there? I don't want that and then having to answer. And I think he's totally right.

And, you know, those songs were mixed in one morning by Steve Lilly. They're not even properly mixed, like a quick and dirty mix. I mean, when you listen to Gray Street, the lyrics aren't there. So he's sort of scatting. And that's so vulnerable, you know, to like, I mean, again, he's a gracious God. and the way he handled it is fantastic. But, yeah, I'd be really upset. It's an invasion.

I mean, it would be so interesting, though, if these had never leaked, and we go straight from before these crowded streets to every day. And then if these don't leak also, perhaps we never get the subsequent album, which actually record some of these songs. I know. I would be so bum because busted stuff has some of my favorite songs.

Like, I would be truly distraught. if there was no busted stuff. I definitely agree that it is invasive. But I think as a listener, it's also interesting because it shows me how interesting this band was and could continue to be and often was. And that's like a redeeming part of fandom is to like believe that this act that you've invested so much of your life and yourself and your interest in can keep expanding artistically. And that's very much how the Lillowite Sessions felt and probably still feel to me. I don't want to say they took the easy road because that would be kind of uncharitable, but they did take a road of less resistance, I think, in making every day.

And it shows a sense of like real artistic ambition and undiminished creativity, the Lillowite Sessions. And so that's a reason that I'm glad they exist. But it is kind of a bummer to think about. But that's as a fan, right? Like, that's like with the removal of a fan. But when you think about these people as other people, you're like, well, that's kind of, that's really sad and fucked up. Like you weren't getting along. You were having a hard time in your life.

And then someone's like, hey, check out this person's diary, which is essentially what this is, right? It's sort of a chronicle of what they're trying to make in a studio. And then suddenly the whole world gets to listen to it if they want to. And not only do they get to listen to it. They're like, this is so gorgeous and beautiful and a million times better than your absolute asshole. shit album every day. Yeah. Here's what Dave Matthews said, which I love him.

He said they asked all the band members in entertainment lately their reactions to the leak. And, you know, Boy Tinsley said it was a sore spot. He wished that it could have been completed. Carter Beaufort said when they were released, he was so pissed off. But Dave said it was a little bit frustrating. But what's done is done. The stuff was on its way to being finished. A lot of the songs were done.

The picture was painted. So my part in it was done. If they were paintings and every gallery that I took them to was like, no, we can't use that. The paintings would still be paintings and the satisfaction of having painted them would also have been completed. And then, sure, I'll go back and do two pictures of happy children with clowns. That's what every day is. It's two pictures of happy children with clowns. Just to like contextualize how mad the fans were about every day.

Stefan Lassard, this is in Rolling Stone later. He was like, I've had fans go off on me at two in the morning about how much they hated every day. and why didn't we release the Lily White sessions? I'm like, you're telling me you hate my work. Dave Matthew is exhausted by the whole debate. Just sitting here doing this interview is strange compared to what's unfolding in the world. It's like talking about Pena Coladas and a blizzard.

I love him. Yeah, absolutely. He's like, why are you even asking me about this? Yeah, I mean, I think it's fun to hypothesize about his fans, but like obviously the band made a decision, that decision was not respected. So like, why are we going to, how much do we need to know about it? Yeah, how much do we need to talk about it?

Yeah, how much do we need to talk about it? Well, thank God, Almighty above, in heaven. That David Matthews and his band decided, okay, no hard feelings. You guys were mean about every day. You leaked our fucking Lily White Sessions. Best albums, busted stuff. It is a good record.

And critics, for once, seem to like it a little more. Let's just first to talk about how this is produced by Steve Harris. So I don't know what fucking went down in that cursed dance hall in Charlottesville. in Charlottesville, North Carolina, with Steve Lilly White, but it's not like they ended on good terms in the sense that they wanted him back. And that, to me, is kind of interesting. They were like, I know you started on these songs and this was like, but we're just actually going to have engineer Steve Harris,

who had never produced an album before this, produce it instead. Yeah, it just didn't, it did not end well with Steve Louis White. He characterizes it as a loss of trust. He says that they stop trusting him. Yeah. And I don't think that he and Steve Harris share the same version of events these days. But it's so funny that like if you look at the covers of every day and busted stuff, they're the two covers that have the band on the cover, right?

Like, and every day we have this very self-serious band posing on like a dock in a lake or something. And then on busted stuff, we've got like this really strong. strange subway poster scape where there's Stefan Fassard, the bass player, sitting on a curve, perhaps because he's the one who leaked the Lilloway Sessions. I don't know. And then we have the rest of the band on these posters on the wall with Dave sitting on an art gallery, staring at a triptych of Carter Beaufort's face being held up by Boy Tinsley. I'm not going to lie to you, babe.

As much as I love this album, this is the most god-awful album art. It is so funny. It's so... It's hilarious. It is really... It's absolutely not serious in any way. It's like, be fucking for real. But they're like, no, more we will not be for real.

It's almost like they said, everyone is taking everything we're doing so seriously. Let's make this very strange collage that maybe says something, but also perhaps doesn't. I mean, Stefan Lassard's... His wristbands, which I won't lie to you in 2002. I was absolutely fucking married to my Puma wristbands that I did wear every day

because it was 2002. I did. I won't lie. You know me. I'm an honest woman. But just to immortalize them like this. Yeah. And I think it's interesting

also on this record, Steve Harris. He is the engineer on before these crowded streets. They go with Steve Harris back to Sal Salisito, the record plant in California. As Stephen Lilloway-Wight pointed out,

it's better to leave your home. So he did do that. That's right. Yeah, I think from everything that I read and heard from Steve Lilly White about the Lily White sessions, it also just seemed like Steve Lillywhite is like a seasoned pro, right? And he said a lot of stuff where he was like, I don't do a lot of albums. I only do ones I really want to. Also, like, to him, he was like, what's the big deal?

Who cares? Like, you too, bitch? That shit took six months sometimes these motherfuckers were so moody and weird. Like, he was like, this is nothing. Like, to him, it was like, this just, this is just a day in the fucking minds of making an album. But I think that attitude alienated the band who was like, no, we're fucking going through it. Like, we're not you two. Like, we haven't done that.

Like, this is our first time that this is really hard for us and we don't like it. So anyways, Lily White's out. Friendship with Lily White ended. My new best friend is Stephen Harris. Before we jump into all the Busted Stuff songs, I want to talk about the songs from the Lilly White Sessions that didn't make it on to Busted Stuff. JTR is one. That's a really popular one. Do you have any speculation as to why you think it didn't end up on the album?

I mean, JTR is really interesting, right? Like, you know, JTR, John the Revelator is a song that is a big cornerstone of, you know, the American songbook. I think that it's a song that they played all the time after stopping these sessions. They played it for two years, and it has stuck around off and on, mostly own, but not a common song they play live, but they still play it. So it's not like they were like, fuck this song, we'd never want to hear it again. It would kind of come and go out of set lists. So why it disappeared, I don't know, but I think that like in terms of lyrics for this song, they're not as strong as they could. be they always felt a little unfinished.

And so I don't know, maybe that's part of it, is that they just never quite finish the song the way they wanted to. Okay, that makes sense. They also left sweet up and down out, which I kind of understand because honestly, I wasn't married to that song. It's fine. Counting the Stars. It merged with another piece of music to become, you never know.

So it actually is in some ways on the album. It just was a different song. And then Monkey Man. Monkey Man. Oh, yeah, I love Monkey Man. I mean, that's definitely a thing on the Liluite Sessions. When you listen to it, you're like, oh, they're trying to figure out their next direction. And I mean, I think it's good that some of these songs don't show up on Busted Stuff

because it shows that, like, here's a band when they're making what becomes the Lillowite Sessions. It's like actively experimenting, try new things. And some of them they throw away. Yeah, that's what experimenting is. here's what Dave said about busted stuff. I feel like I finished the picture. I'd left those songs in an ugly little pile. Going back was like seeing old friends again.

This is some of the best stuff I've ever written and some of the best stuff the band has ever played. I agree with that. No lie detected, David. No lie detected David John Matthews. All right. Let's get into it. Song by song. Busted stuff, bitch.

Let's start with the titular track. I'm going to say it right off the top. Goddamn gorgeous, beautiful song. It's a nice thing to play when you're walking your dog, is what I would say. I don't mean that as an euphemism. You know, she's going to leave my broken heart behind her. I'll take what she's giving up. I just, I love this song.

I feel, I'm figuring out a string for myself of Dave Matthews band and David Matthews' songs that tickle may fancy, and they do live in this realm. What's that realm? Tell me about that. Take me into your, save Matthew's room. Just sort of like a beautiful little love songs, a little wistful, maybe a little horny, maybe a little hornily wistful, whatever combo.

That's really, that's really where it gets me. I think horny wistful is a good space in general. I think so too. You already know. You already know what the next song is. You already know that it's motherfucking gray street. It is motherfucking gray street. one of the best.

I think everyone who's not in agreement is just fucking wrong, right? We can say that. Your ears are broken. Your heart is cold. And you need to seek Jesus. Did you know that this was a nod to Peter Gabriel's song, Mercy Street, off his 1986 album, So? Did you know that Mercy Street, though, the Peter Gabriel song,

was inspired by the, the famously very depressed poet, Anne Sexton. Specifically, her poem, 45, Mercy Street. I bring this up because, to be a little serious for just a moment, I find Grey Street to be one of the greatest lyrical representations of depression. Like, I think Dave Matthews occupying the position of the, you know, the woman he's singing about putting sort of like that as the main character to put those feelings into and what he's describing as depression. And it's so well done. That's right. Yeah, sure. I want to ask you

about how you feel about the guitar line on the song. I think it's like a pretty interesting use of the 12-string guitar. And I think it like has this very sweeping and full sound. It's quite nice. And that's one of the many reasons I've always loved this song. And I think this period of band's output is they're taking a step, but it feels like a good step to take. Yeah. I think that there was a lot of rich territory to be mined amongst the detritus of Dave's Dark Night of the Soul. that sort of yielded all these songs. And I know we've talked about it before,

but it's like that very probably human reaction to a sudden insanely wide distance between you and the world because now you're super famous that happened in five minutes and shutting down and sort of, you know, and that's why I guess I have you and I, different strokes babe. You're a guitar line guy. I'm a lyrics girl.

But I'm just like... I love the lyrics here too. I mean, I think it's interesting also that there's sort of this man creeping outside of a door, which I think is this... There's a crazy man creeping outside my door. Maybe it's the guy... That's what I was going to say.

You know, so there is this... There's this same sort of like recurring up and feeling like... Feeling like the creep. You feel, you know, you're feeling like this person who's kind of on the outside looking in at a situation that maybe you should... feel a little more comfortable in. And I think that's sometimes how

that's how breakups or relationship tensions or like any of this could feel, right? Or depression. There's an emptiness inside her and she'd do anything to fill it in. And though it's red blood bleeding from her now, it's more like cold blue ice in her heart, bitch. Do you know what I'm saying? I totally know what you're saying, Yonzie. What do you think the cure for the element in this song is?

Do you think it's listening to more Dave Matthews? You think it's playing more hacky sack? Do you think it's going to a therapist? Like, what do you recommend here? I think a combination of the three would really... And then for me, a trip to Sephora. Mm, Sephora. Always boosts my serotonin.

I want to talk one more second about Gray Street, if you don't mind. So the poem Mercy Street starts within my dream, right? And it talks about her dream searching for a street sign. It's Mercy Street. It's not there. Okay. And then Peter Gabriel's song has these lyrics, Looking down on empty streets, all she can see are the dreams all made solid, are the dreams made real?

She pictures the broken glass, pictures the steam, she pictures the soul with no leak at the seams. And I just thought it was very clever how the Dave Matthews band song sort of echoes those. You know, take what you can from your dreams, make them as real as anything. It would take the work out of the courage. Make them as real as anything. It's so good. Take the work out of the courage. It's so good.

I'm sorry, I love Grey Street. I love that it's five minutes long, and then if you see it live, much longer. And you're just living. You're thriving. You're catching your whole life. You're emoting. That was only the second single, though. The first single was, where are you going?

You already know it. I am a man. I love it. This is a song, of course, we've got to say that there's not a here on the Little White Sessions. This is sort of like, hey, you got the bootleg, come check this shit out. You should still buy the album. And I think it's entirely successful. This was also like RCA wins because they were like, can we have a hit too? Also a radio hit. And they were like, yeah, here you go. Here's the radio hit. And of course, everyone knows this.

It's from the theatrical masterpiece, Mr. Deeds, starring Adam Sandler and Winona Ryder. It's a remake. Yeah. I mean, I think the question becomes, right? Like, Let's think about Dave Matthews fans for a second. Okay. If you're a Dave hit, if you're a Dave hit, not a crash hit. Yeah. All right. Let's check out this situation.

You've got and have long loved the Lulet Sessions. You know, you've burned them. You've burned them for all your friends. You've sharpied the shit out of the Lillow Sessions on some CDRs. It's only been like a year, I think, that the Lillow it was, right? But let's see, like, do you automatically go and buy busted stuff? Of course. Davehead?

Yeah, you're a completest. You buy everything. How many new converts does where are you going bring into the fold? That's what I'm wondering. I mean, a better question is who is buying CDs in 2001? I was. So were you. Yeah, 2001 was just like such a strange time because it was like post-Napster.

So there was like a lot of downloading happening. Oh yeah, I've heard of that. But I think if you still wanted, I mean, I think it was like still this nebulous period. and I was at this point a freshman in college, I suppose. I think that there was still this, like, gray period, so to speak, where you didn't know, like, oh, if I download it, am I, like, where is it going to, will I always have access to this?

Right. Is my college actually going to take down the server? Like, there was this period, there was a sense that I think kind of we're now returning to in some ways of, like, if I want the permanent thing, I need to own it. That's really how I felt with this record. I feel like it was probably more like the kind of thing where like they were doing stuff like here. Oh, at Starbucks by the kiosk, there's like a card that you can take for one free download of where are you going.

And then you can return to Starbucks to purchase the CD. Totally. Yeah, of course. You know what I mean? I feel like that was kind of the vibe. First of all, they're still playing crash into me on the radio every day since 1990. whatever, six. So it's not like there's people who were made aware of Dave Matthews band by where are you going.

You know what I mean? Do you don't think so? No, I think like you knew who Dave Matthews band was because they probably played crash into me on the radio more often than where are you going, even at this point. I feel like the Adam Sandler at that period of time, like the placement in this Adam Sandler movie in and the video accompanying, I feel like this might have gotten some new converts, you know? And I also want to say, like, not to get all music nerdy on you again, but like, it's not even that nerdy. You know, I think Carter Buford, the drummer of the Dave Matthews band, is often talked about as being a little over the top. Okay. Rightfully so.

He gets into it. But I think that his beat here, and this is coming out of every day when he's kind of like this world-class generational drummer is told what to play, I think his beat here is so restrained but also, like, smart. He's not overplaying, but he's not underplaying. He's, like, driving the song. But there's also a lot going home in terms of the turnarounds of this song. And I think it's like a really nice moment in this band's reinvention where they're kind of getting back on the track after this. Not altogether terrible, but partially terrible experiment with Gay Glenn Ballard. So that's something I really appreciate about this as a single.

It's like you suddenly hear the band working again. Yeah, totally. I have to say it has like a slightly modernized. sound, right? Like, it's like, it doesn't sound like a 90s, early 90s song, right? Like, it, like, it fits in with the time. Totally. Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah. I mean, I think, like, yeah, we've talked about before, you know, like Steve Harris, who engineered before these crowded streets, becomes the producer here. And I do think he does a nice job throughout this record of sort of goading the band forward, just a little bit. Just a, just so, like, you know,

if everyone was uncomfortable in every day, they're not a, uncomfortable now, but there is some nice progress. Yeah. Forward momentum. I like that point. I mean, there's really great songs on here. I mean, again, some many from the little bit sashes, like Grace has gone, gorgeous, love. Again, my kind of Dave Matthews song, digging a ditch.

Beautiful. A beautiful. Are you a big-eyed fish girl? I would say I'm a big-eyed fish girl. It's kind of a goofy song, but I like it. Are you a big-eyed fish girl? Yeah, I love it. I think that's really good.

I really love this album, like, kind of through and through. Where are you going to rank it? Like, if you had to, where are you going to put it in the pantheon? Honestly, I feel like it's like a solid, this is going to be controversial. I think it might be number three for me. I don't think that's more controversial than the pronunciation, controversial, really. I'm not sure that that's controversial. Yeah, Big Godfish is great.

You know, it's, I think, I think the thing also about these songs is interesting is, like, they got fish, Kit Kat Jam, Raven, is that, like, they still have this, like, nebulous feeling that also, I think something to your point that makes it kind of a standout over time is that there's this, like, skeletalness to these songs. So then it's almost like they acknowledge the fact that the Lillowai Sessions at Leeds, it's so they don't, like, labor over the songs too much. Yeah, they don't, like, put too much. shit on it, you know? They're not like, they're not overcomplicating. They're not like, let's put a bird on it. They're just like, all right, let's just gussy it up to be the best version, polish it up, if you will, but we're not going to put a bunch of bells and whistles and fiddles. Yeah, bells, whistles, kettlefish, you know, whatever. I don't know. Yeah, it almost seems, it almost seems like some of these songs could have been like, oh, remember two things or something, because they do have

this skeletal sort of unadorned quality, almost like they had just shown up in the studio with Steve Lillywhite or something in the mid-90s. What do you think about Grace is gone? Are you a fan? I love it. I love it. I think it's a beautiful, beautiful song. Again, these are my favorite, maybe my favorite kinds of Dave Matthews songs. Like you said, these sort of like skeletal beautiful moments. I mean, Gray Street has a lot going on. But I think it works in the gravitas and drama of that song. We haven't even talked to Gossi about bartender. So we're going to have to talk about bartender.

I know. First of all, it's a goddamn gorgeous beautiful song. Don't get it twisted. Bartender, please. I fucking love bartender. Also, I'm just, like, obsessed that he's like, you know what, actually, can you, it's not enough, bitch. Give me the fucking shit you gave Jesus Christ, bitch, that got him resurrected, okay? Give me that resurrection shit, that good shit.

Like, I don't want any of your fucking swill, babe. I want the resurrection shit. What David said about it is it's not the happiest idea in the world thinking about dying and what your life means. And the Jesus thing is an impossible comparison. Can God come out of the sky, take the form of this bartender in front of me and save my life? But at the time that he wrote those words, Matthew's notes, I was drinking a lot. Story check. But you know what?

This is a good example of a song that is, I think, much better on busted stuff than it was in the Lily White Sessions. What do you think? I think part of that is simply the fact that it's, like, finished. Yeah. But I think also part of it is that the vocal delivery probably removed from the time that it was, like, the depths of Les Mis when they were making those demos and you can fucking hear it. And it's also a really laymise song. So, like, it's just too much, right? And I think here with some, like, distance from the whole thing and clearly, like, being in a better headspace, the vocal delivery is different.

And balance is really nicely with the song. Totally. I think, you know, they also played the shit out of this song live. I mean, they've been playing. It's 99. By the time they get to the studio, you know, to recut it, I think sort of understanding the way this song. can, you know, like, fill an arena, like, what that takes and also what it delivers is pretty important.

So I think that that's certainly a benefit. And that's a benefit of a lot of this material is, like, some of this goes on tour. It gets a little, like, it gets a little looser in some ways, even though it was already pretty loose. But I think stepping into bartender in that way that you mentioned is really crucial here. And I'm, yeah, I think, like, it's weird because from the outside, it's easy to like, oh, they just like sort of re-recorded the songs that you could already hear. year, but it does, it would be easy to dismiss this album as just being like, well, they're just

trying to sell what people are already getting for free. But I do think they step into the role pretty nicely. And it's like, it is worth far more than like the fact that it simply exists. Like, I think these songs are upgrades from what happened on the Louis White session. I'm 100%. It's like, I think it's pretty crystal clear to me that these songs were never intended to be like thrown away forever. They're too good, you know? It was just like a matter of like, it's not working in this moment. And we, you know, sometimes to get out of a sort of rut like that, you have to do something totally different and then return to the other thing. There's a really funny Rolling Stone piece around this time. And they talk about how people were like constantly

showing up at Dave Matthews band shows around this time wearing T-shirts that said long live Lily White. And Dave was like, which is nice. I hope he lives forever too. Then there was the jerk who held up a sign in front of Matthews one night that said, Glenn Ballard is the devil. I thought, have you ever met the man, Matthews, I had someone take the sign away. I didn't want to find myself diving into the audience and getting bad publicity for being the guy up. Hippie rocker Dave Matthews, pounds fan of the head.

That's amazing. This was telling to me because I feel like it's one of those things you broached it earlier when we're talking about the leaking of the Lily White sessions where it's like, fans sometimes maybe forget the part where the artist is making choices and they back them. You know, like it's pretty obvious to me that given to do it all over again, Dave Matthews and his band, I don't know about his band, because they didn't really enjoy the everyday sessions, but Dave Matthews would have done the exact same thing over again.

And, like, he, that's exactly what he needed to do artistically. It's exactly what he needed to do psychologically. And he has nothing but a good feeling towards every day and the songs and the experience. So it's almost like, well, how can you know better than the person who actually made the music? Sure. I do think one thing I should say is, because I do think my position is softened slightly over the years, which is a nice thing. You were that guy wearing the Glenn Ballard sucks to shirt to the Dave Matthews. It was you.

I was a sign, Yossi, and my mommy made it for me. I'm sure that that person's mommy definitely made that sign. I do think that in the end, the Lily White sessions are more interesting simply because what they suggest could have happened. Like, I think they're more interesting as like a hypothetical exercise. Right. But I do think probably, in this opinion, has probably changed over time.

I do think, like, blessed stuff is probably better. Yeah, they're more interesting because you get to see things you don't usually get to see, which is, like, opening up the belly and looking at the organs of a thing where, like, that's not how art is usually delivered to you, you know? I really think the better metaphor here in this circumstance would have been,

open up my head and let me out. John Perelis, who at the time was writing for Blender, if it gives you any sense of how insane the industry, the industry of music journalism was in 2002, gave it three stars. Hey, you know, okay. That's fine. Fine. Three out of four, right? I'm presuming. I think so.

Let's just go with that. Yeah. Only times gave it two and a half stars, which is incorrect. Yeah. It's just simply wrong. Entertainment Weekly gave it a B. Fair. What did our friend at USA Today give it, though?

Do we know? Edna Gunderson, who is permanently on the Dave Matthews band B. Three out of four. Quality, Edna. Yeah. Busted Stuff actually springs from the intended fourth. A dark collection recorded two years ago with the producer of Steve Willeylight and a band in favor of the chirpier every day.

She's on it. Thanks, Edna. I know it's not technically counted in the Oeuvre, but it's my show. so we're going to, because I'm going to say another controversy. Some Devil. Yeah. The David Matthews solo album that came out September 23rd, 2002. This man was busy, bitch.

He was like, all right, busted stuff, it's out. Guess what? I have a lot more songs. Where did I put them? How about a solo album? Check this out. I love this album. This is my favorite, I mean, putting aside busted stuff, of the post-Y2K

Dave Matthews band output. Wow. That's interesting. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I mean, it's not a high bar to clear. It's not a super high bar, but I do think it is, I remember standing in line, only Tuesday night to buy this at a record store when I was in college. Wearing your Glenn Ballard eat shit t-shirt, yeah.

Yeah, it actually says... With your alleged girlfriend. I didn't have a girlfriend in this period. Yeah, see, it's a pretty difficult period, so maybe if we don't talk about it. that'd be great. But, you know, this was like a very big, intense period of fandom for me when I was just starting to get into so many other things, but also, you know, still pretty into Dave Matthews.

I remember waiting in a line for it, following the acoustic tour around. I think, like, something about that period felt a little anxious, but also really exciting as a fan at this band. Okay, because you're just like, what's coming next? What's coming next, right? Like, man, this, like, band was just doing. this fucking thing for a decade and they did it really consistently and I knew it to expect.

And now like they almost broke up. There was depression. There was an abandoned album. Then they remade the abandoned album. And then also there was this weird album in there that like. That nobody liked. Maybe AI made with Drake or something. I don't know. And here's a solo album.

And it does have some songs that are fantastic. I fucking love it. Okay, I fucking love it. Through and through. What's your fave? Let's go. Stay or leave is pretty. Stare leave is so beautiful.

There's so few examples, I think, of love songs that at least in my estimation, this song is about many years into a relationship, right? Like, they exist, but they're very few and far between. Most love songs are either generic as hell, which is fine, or clearly about new love, right? But this song is lyrically so interesting because it's delving into the territory of maybe 15 years in or something, 20 years in. And I really, you know, these people that say that Dave Matthews is not a good lyricist, lies. lies in malarkey because Yeah, this is like, this is a question

of like, is contentment enough, right? Like, it's like, like, do you have to be, you know, if there's this moment in this song where we're talking about like this dancing, young couple that's so enviable and maybe is that, like, is maturity enviable? Is like steadiness enviable?

I think that's the question of this song. It's beautifully posed. Stay on leave. I want you. The falsetto part of that song is just like, I think one of his most interesting bits of singing in his career. Remember we used to dance and everybody wanted to be you and me? I want to be too.

Yeah, I see him. I'm married. They talk to me this way on a podcast. You're not married, babe. We all know you. No girlfriend. You're not married. I'm just kidding.

You are married. And your wife is really lovely. And often, I think, all the time, how you land. of that really quality woman. Thank you. Me too. Yeah, I love that song. I mean, I love Dodo, the first song. I think that song is really slapped on.

It's super beautiful. I love Gravedigger. Obviously, that's a staple. The interesting thing about this album is that if you're ever wondered whose band it was, bitch, maybe in the beginning it was an accident that I called Dave Matthews band, but it's not an accident anymore, babe. This is the David Matthews band. Because Gravedigger, stay or leave,

those are staples in live shows still to the state. Those are two huge Dave Matthews song, band songs that they play. You just got to say, Hi, Yossi, though, that around the same time, we had an album for Boyd-Dinsley. It's right after.

I was going to get to it, babe. It's right after. So there's also, you know, a song from Boyd shows up in the mix. I will say also that it is one of the, the worst Dave Matthews band songs ever. So maybe I'm put the cart for the horse, and I apologize. Are you talking about true reflections?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's not good. Before we exit, some devil, I just want to say that as produced by Steve Harris, only Timothy Reynolds plays on this album of the squad. It's no all other different musicians, including Trey Anastasio from Fish, who also co-wrote a song, Gray Blue Eyes, gorgeous album, beautiful album, hit number two on the Billboard charts deservedly. And then Boyd Tinsley, we shouldn't point out. Boyd Tinsley also had his own

band. We said this in the beginning before Dave Matthews band started, where he sang, and he left to join Dave Matthews band. So you have to assume there was always this sort of like underlying desire to be the frontman. We've seen the leather pants. We've seen the outfits. He has a bit of frontman syndrome. So he puts out this whole album True Reflections. It's not a lot to report here on that, I must say.

Kind of a miss. Let's leave Boyd alone on this. He gave it a try. Listen, you have to try things. You have to swing. In August of 2004, we do hit a bit of controversy. And I must say it is once again

tangentially related back to Boyd Tinsley. You will all remember because people send me the link to this story 400 times a year, including on the day of its anniversary, I get it sent it 20 million times, that 800 pounds of human waste was dumped from Boyd-Tensley's tour bus through the grade of the Kinsey Street Bridge in Chicago and onto passengers aboard a sightseeing boat on the Chicago River.

It's really not funny. It's horrible. No, it's funny. You just said it's not funny in your line. I know, it is. It's so funny. I mean, here's the thing. Do you think that the people who got shit on are able to laugh about it now? I mean, I think they got paid out a bunch of money, so maybe.

Maybe it was worth it. I mean, do you think that like any Daveheads got the treatment? Do you think there was anybody who was like, yes? But they were bummed when they found out it was. it was Boyd's bus. Yeah, see, that is the meanest thing you've ever said on this show. I was saying they were like maybe stoked when they thought it was Dave's bus, but then it was Boyd's bus.

And they were like, well, it's not quite the same. Yes, and sure. Anyways, on March 9, 2005, the tour bus driver pled guilty to dumping the bus's waist hangar to the river, and the band donated $50,000 to the friends of the Chicago River and $50,000 to the Chicago Park District. And they also had to pay $200,000 to some. a civil lawsuit. Okay, 2005.

We're not even going to talk about the musical landscape of 2005 because it's so fucking bizarre. Let's just say this is the time of emancipation of Mimi, Confessions on a dance floor by Madonna, Cole plays X and Y, Kanye West Late Registration, The National Alligator, honestly a gorgeous album.

Stand up has nothing to do with any of this music. With utmost love and respect in my heart for David John. Matthews and his entire band. I absolutely men in black, minder race, forgot this album existed. I was like, whomst? What? Stand up? I remember it because it's definitely where I got off the bus the hardest. You got off the bus before it ejected.

No, I was just like a teenage piece of defecation in the bus and then shot me right in the Chicago River. I guess actually I was not teenage at this point. But yeah. You're full-ass adult. You were out of college at this point. You were in the workforce. That's true.

You know, we're talking about some devil, right? And like, there's just like anxiety and this uncertainty and this excitement. And it's like, where's this band going? Wow. So many things could happen.

And then stand up answers the question. And you're like, I don't know if I'm into it. That's certainly how I felt. And it's not an album that I have revisited. Okay, I'll tell you what. I'm going to go ahead and, do a little bit of positive talk about this album, though, because American Baby, I do remember

that song from the radio now that you say it. It's not a bad song. It's not a good song. Stolen Away on 55th and 3rd is a good song. It's a gorgeous song. It's the bright light on this album. I think it could have been the single. I really like that song.

What do you think about you might die? I try and which is sort of a song that's stuck around a bit. I like it a lot as well. Those are the two songs that I really like on this album. And I do think that like it does the Dave Matthews service of like, you know, it's a, it's not a dark sounding song and it's about sort of this larger. To me, one of the reasons it's a song that stands out to me on this record is like, here's a band that's now been at it for a while.

They've had to pay people because some idiot bus driver, I'm sorry, man, you know, shit on some people over a bridge. I don't think that's like, that was like five cents to them of like one night of just hat sales. Yeah, but still, you don't want to be like, oh, I had to give some money to people to everyone because like our bus driver emptied our violin as shit into a river. Well, it was probably just embarrassing. But anyway, but there's like this, this like deep sort of like frustration because, you know, here's a band that has worked very hard. Here's a band that's toured their asses off. Here's a band that has like done the right things, given money to charity, started a charitable.

foundation. And it's a song about like, is any of this making a difference? Maybe not. Maybe like, are we just becoming rock stars? Are we just becoming a punchline? And I do think it's a sentiment that this song like expresses really well. And I've certainly felt that way at points. And I'm not a rock star. You're not. I don't even have a girlfriend. Thank God because you're married. That'd be weird. That's true. Dave Matthews said in a later interview, the most iconic Dave Matthews interview of all time until I do mine. which was the Vulture interview in 2018 with David Mar Tracy.

He basically says that I'll write a funky song about lust and sex and it makes you want to dance. I feel like that's okay. But I also have to write songs about the dilemmas of being alive. Yeah, totally. Amen, brother. So real. I just think, like, 2005 was inhospitable to Dave Matthew's band in so many ways that, like, I'm not even sure it would have mattered what kind of album they made.

You know what I mean? I'm not talking about for Dave heads. I'm talking about for like the greater popular culture or even like the greater rock culture. Like I just, I don't think there was an album they could have put out in 2005 that like indie slees, for lack of a better term, people or like burgeoning hold steady fans would have been like, fuck yeah, bitch. Although later on people do merge. But I don't think that matters, right? Like at this point It's not about mattering to them.

I'm just simply pointing it out as like zooming out into like what place Dave Matthews band is like occupying in culture just to like compare and contrasted to a mere 10 years ago where they were like quite in the cultural conversation in an extremely real way. Like I pointed out a couple of times like on MTV every day in every magazine like that time is over. Yeah. I mean this album comes out in May 2005. This album comes out like the right is touring. season begins, right? It's kind of an advertisement for like, hey, you want to go party this summer with your friends? Like, buy a ticket to Dave Matthews band, and you're going to have a great time. Hey, American babies. Hey, American babies. It's time to, it's time to do that thing

that you do every summer. And it kind of, I mean, it functions in that way. It goes, you know, it goes to number one. And of course, like, it's, it's so little of a cultural splash that you and I. Fourth consecutive number one album on the Billboard 200, babe. That's, that's crazy. It was also probably strange that they used Mark Batson to produce it who was like, had worked with Alicia Keys and Jay-Z and, like, Leanne Rhymes and Eminem. Like, it was just a strange choice of producer. And again, perhaps they were just trying to change it up. I mean, that's definitely an attempt, an acknowledgement of like relevancy issues at that point, right? And it doesn't really pay off.

It just kind of exists this album. I feel like you say that, that I want to say that my speculation is that that that is a RCA concern and not a Dave Matthews band concern, because I just can't wrap my head around Dave Matthews sitting and being like, we better get that hip Maroon 5 producer in here, bitch, because we gotta get

with the times. Yeah, but I do think it might not be a concession in that way to making a hit, but it's certainly like a good thing for a band like this at this point is to make, is to change producers, because like their relationships or their producers have always

been so intimate. And like their producers entirely change the course of this band, sort of the working relationship they have in the studio. So like, I don't think they've ever been a band that's interested in trying to repeat itself. Like, look what happens between crashing before these crowded streets. And I think, like, it's pretty apparent that in their existence, a good way to try and change themselves is to change me they're working with. And that, like, it's a mirror to them, sort of mirrored to themselves in a really interesting way.

And, you know, Dave's just come off of this, like, very tender. bare bones stripped down Yossi core solo album and it's timed it I think probably creatively it felt like okay let's fucking do something totally different let's go with this guy who's like known for sort of these like big thick R&B sounds I'll tell you how unwell entertainment weekly is they gave this album an a minus they gave busted stuff a B and they gave stand-up an A-minus. Nothing means anything. Nothing means anything.

You know, it's interesting, too. I mean, I think if we're thinking about this sort of prospect of what this album could have meant in 2005, the album that beat Some Devil, and I think this is sort of a sign of the times, and rightfully so. The album that beat Some Devil, because I remember standing in line for both of them on that night, is Speaker Box the Love Below. That's the album that Beets Some Devil to Number One. I'm so glad to be it.

brought this up, do you know that Dave Matthews is a massive outcast fan? I mean, every living human being should be a massive outcast fan, so sure. But he's like a vocal, he's a vocal massive outcast fan, which I absolutely love, because I think it's slightly unexpected. And I know this because, as I've said, multiple times on this here program, I listen to the serious X-M station, Dave Matthews band radio every day of my life, and they'll play picks from the members of the band. And Dave Matthews, 50% of the time picks an outcast deep cut. My king.

I love that. My absolute. My absolute king. But yeah, you're right. Things are shifting, for sure. Were you wondering if Edna Gunderson reviewed this album? Yes, I was. She's back, bitch.

Every album. What is that to get it? Three stars out of four every time. I should have had her be the expert, to be honest. You should have. I do want to read what Ann Powers said about this, who also, again, once again, Blender. The way Blender had money to hire the greatest minds of our music journalism criticism times,

so Ann Powers reviewed this, gave it three stars. Here's how she opened the review. Is anyone else sick of hearing Dave Matthews declare himself a nut cake? Locked in mortal combat with a perennially boring haircut, this 38-year-old husband, father of twins, and musical monogamist, he's worked with the same band for 14 years, wields the darkness in his soul like a weapon he just can't keep concealed. She's good. He just made a solo album. We're calling him a musical monogamous.

That's interesting. I mean, if he's the Dave Matthews or the Dave Matthews band, which at this point, we can agree that he is the engine and the principal songwriter, not many people like that would have kept the same band the whole time. But we've talked about it. It's so important the band to the larger Dave Matthews. Band idea and Story, and Dave Matthews would say the same. But I think from the outside, you know, that can seem striking.

Sure. There's very few bands in general that have stayed together for that long. I mean, but we're only talking about a decade. This is like just over a decade at this point, right? I mean, this doesn't, I don't know. It seems like a, it seems surprising. No, it's longer than decades, like 15 years. I feel like you're fix sitting on the musical monogamous, which I think was a very side part of that thing.

I think the more interesting part of that was her sort of like, I thought kind of nailing this, like, persona that Dave Matthews band has, this persona that Dave Matthews has of this sort of, like, kooky kook who's wild and crazy and silly, but clearly has this, like, extremely serious dark side running through him, you know? And I, and I, I think it's a good call out because it's, it is the tension of those two things and the like kind of interplay of those two things that probably makes him so likable and also makes him such a good artist. But it's interesting that like this is not a newsflash by this point, right? Like we're almost a decade removed from before these crowded streets.

And this album is much more kooky. And was it nut cake? Was that what the word? Nutkake, yeah. I just feel like this album feels less that way to me. So despite what we've talked about with some of these songs, it feels less balanced on that line than other albums, and I feel like that's one of the reasons why it is so forgettable. Sure. I don't think she's talking about. I mean, this is what happens when a band is really big

a decade before you're reviewing the album that came out. Every reviewer does is you. This is your job. You have to spend a paragraph talking about their legacy and who they are, and then you get into the album at hand. I think that that's what she's doing here. Also, I have to presume that Ann Powers has not spent a whole lot of time before this thinking about Dave Matthews, because she doesn't seem like her beat. It's a really long review actually. It's quite good. I'll link it in my little newsletter. Thanks the best. In 2008, Leroy Moore gets injured in an ATV accident on his farm. And apparently he was like totally expected to make a full recovery. Like it was like, okay, like it was a bad accident, but he's fine. Like he just needs to recover. And but he's very suddenly died of complications

from the accident in August of 2008, which was so sad. terrible yeah it's awful and just like another out of the blue tragedy you know in the life of day matthews the following year they put out big whiskey and the grue grucks king i think loroy more had been involved in the pre-production of it but obviously was not it's not featured on the album this one is produced by rob covalo i want to ask you about this album this is an album that there's like several songs on here that i really really love but this is this This album as a whole has sort of like a cult following of its own. Like I've seen that there's like a big streak of Dave Matthews band fans, Dave Heads,

who will swear up and down this is the best Dave Matthews band album of all time. Can you explain that to me or like what that thinking is? Can I explain that thinking to you? I know because I disagree. I know you don't agree. I don't agree. But I'm curious if you could just like speculate. as to like what it is that this album offers,

that some of the previous albums don't, that really connects with these people. I mean, I think like we're getting back into like a pretty collaborative space here, right? Like the album feels collaborative. It feels like they're playing together and playing harder again. It also feels like, like if you look at studio credits for this record, like they're pretty all over the place.

So it feels like they're kind of like. Looser and freer. But it seems like they're. working harder, right? It seems like they're trying to chase something. And, you know, like, there's some different rhythms here, there's some different song structures.

There are kind of like different rhythmic ideas that I don't think the band has ever really engaged before on this song, or on this record. And I think that is the key of it. It's like maybe you feel like you sort of have now

seen this seesaw or they kind of like, maybe it's a little more straight, with every day and then with stand-up. And then this one is like, oh, they're kind of going for this band ideal again. But I think, like, at the end of the day, the songs themselves are not as strong as the best day Matthews band songs. I think that's kind of what this album and these ideas kind of keeps running up against. Yeah, I kind of agree.

I think you nailed it. It's like, I think it's extremely musically rich in sound. like in a way that almost like makes me think a little bit of before these crowded streets for some reason. Just like maybe because also Tim Reynolds is finally back. Maybe that's why I'm hearing that. Like and Tim Reynolds hasn't played on an album since before these crowded streets. But the actual like meat and potatoes of the songs are not, it's not hitting, babe. It's not hitting.

Yeah. Can you hum the song funny the way it is right now? No, bitch. Not at all. The only songs that I. remember from this album that I really like are lying in the hands of God, which is an absolutely stunningly beautiful song. I love it. And of course, you and me.

It's a fucking jam. Unity's great. I mean, yeah, it's just funny that, like, funny the way it is as, like, the lead single on this record. Like, it's, I think it's the first time that, like, the lead single on a Dave Matthews band album is not instantly memorable. Yeah, this is the first Dave Matthews band album that doesn't have a song. song that is a radio staple, I think, right? Oh, you and me a little, not really. Yeah, it would be a, I think it would be a stretch to call it a radio staple. Yeah. It did okay, but it was pretty fleeting. They played American Baby way more for sure. Yes, that's right. But I think there is like a suspicion

with this album that like, oh, they're, they're back and like, it's of course like in this, this feel that we work in. Like, of course they're, our head fancier because like the narrative hook is really compelling, right? Like, here's this band, as Ann Powers put it, you know, these folks have been musical monogamous, and suddenly they're sort of forced out of that relationship because one of them dies.

Great. One of them dies in an awful way. And suddenly they have to regroup. And like, that's, it's a compelling story. Like, if you're ever going to write your Dave Matthews feature, here it is. Well, let me tell you, speaking of, speaking of the features, let's hear about it. Well, if you're wondering about the name, Big Whiskey and the Grue Grux King, which I imagine some of you who are not Daveheads were perhaps scratching your chins.

This band is named in honor of Moore. He is said to be the king in the album title. Apparently, Grugrux was a nickname that they had for each other. Carter had for Leroy and Tim Reynolds, and they all called each other Grue Grubux. Beaufort said the made-up word was used to describe. the vibe and energy of their wild-sounding rhythms when they started playing music together. And Big Whiskey came from a chance encounter with a local New Orleans drunk during a photo shoot for the new album. They were taking promotional photos and they encountered a local man playing harmonica who was asking tourists for money so he could buy a big whiskey.

I think it's very lovely that Tim Reynolds came back for this album and I have to assume that it was partially motivated by, the death and loss of Leroy Moore because he was kind of like I'm not about that life but before that. It's also interesting, you know, they keep it in the family in a lot of ways, right?

Like, they, you know, they bring in horn players. They bring in two horn players, I think, on this album. They bring in Jeff Kaufman, who's for a long time, saxophone player for bailiffle-flect. And the flight tones, of course, bailiffle-flict has a own relationship we've already talked about with the band. And they bring in

Roshone Raw, who's from Soul Live, I think, already at that point, and another band that I think had opened a decent amount for the Dave Matthews Band. They're not bringing strangers into this intimate experience.

They're not bringing strangers and they're bringing, like, folks that I think they consider friends and, like, hit the vibe of this band. And it's interesting that there are two musicians to come into play this role. I think one of the things that it's maybe often understated about

Roy Moore in his role in this band is, like, the amount of voicing he brought to this band as a as a musician. It's pretty astounding. You know, I don't think that anyone would ever say that Leroy is like, you know, some saxophone colossus, but he's like, I think they're instead this musician with a really wide range. And that wide range was so important for what the Dave Matthews fan accomplished for, you know, 20 years, you know, where they were talking about like the baritone of your favorite,

your favorite death song, bartender, or like these really like, these really like, and airy parts that he brings on the flute or the penny whistle. It's pretty incredible. And so I think it's a real testament to him that these two incredible players show up to help. Yeah. It's a beautiful idea. It's a beautiful idea. And it's an album that is also like, has similarly to Busted Stuff O'S,

it's certainly grown only over time. I think I appreciate its charms and sort of what it's going forward now, more than I did when it came out. which again, is a period when I was sort of doubting my fandom in a way that was as much about me as to him, I would say. Yeah, totally. It's just like we were on to other things at this point. But it's a gorgeous album. The artwork was done by David Matthews.

It's a nice tribute to Roy. You know, it looks like they're having a summertime party. We didn't even mention this is produced by Rob Kovallo, The God, an absolute king. We love Robert Kovall in this program. It's responsible for some of the greatest. albums and soundtracks of my youth. Green Day, Goo doll's a boy named goo, jawbreakers, dear you. Dude, iconic.

Dance Hall Crashers, that dog. This man is a fucking legend. And he did his Rob Kavala shit on here, and I think it worked musically. You can only work with what you have, you know? Okay. David Frick, again, David Frick made me one of these Dave heads who thinks this is the best Dave Matthews band album. Give it four stars.

Loved it. Crush it. He's not a crash head. He's almost said that. Lots of electric guitar on here. Also, maybe that's just not my favorite. Dave Matthews mode. The AV club, Amanda Petrusich,

who is an incredible writer now the music critic for a little rag called The New Yorker. She gave it a C. She didn't like it. I'd go with C plus, but sure. I mean, I think it's interesting, too, that when outside of the mode of the steep, Steve Harris and Steve Louis White, the electric guitar does become such a tool for Dave Matthews.

And it's interesting to think about, like, what is it about these producers who aren't Steve Louis White and Steve Harris? Like, what do they hear in his electric guitar playing? I wonder that makes them encourage that. It would be an interesting question to ask, as you put it, the god, Rob Kvala. And the demigod, Glenn Bauer, or, wait, the devil, or the sign. what is it about the electric guitar of Dave Matthews that they respond to that other producers often don't. Right. I mean, I think they traffic and that's their bread and butter is electric guitar.

You know, that's sort of what they, I don't want to put words into their mouths, but it just just seemed to me from what their output, they thrive more working with electric guitar because that's sort of what they've. And Rao Kavala was like, you know, didn't he work with Prince? It's like he's been in this game since he was a kid. His dad was a manager. Anyways, but they didn't come from the traditions of like finger-picked guitar, acoustic guitar. So that's not what they're going to do. Okay.

Let's talk about away from the world. Another album that, again, with absolute love and respect, I did not remember. Two albums now that I forgot existed. I mean, first of all, the thing is, is Steve Louis White is back. He's back, bitch. We've got Mr. Lily White. He's back in the house. But I also think it does feel a little bit like they're trying to chase the dragon. They're trying to bring the magic back and they don't quite get there.

You know, I think it's a somewhat quickly made album, comparatively speaking. But, yeah, I don't, it just doesn't. I think we sort of lose the narrative. of we lose that drive. It just feels like a bit of a flatline. Maybe. What do you think? This is the album where I'm like, I don't remember one song.

How do you not remember a song called Belly Belly Nice? I don't. Do you, are these? I mean, this was, I'm just going to, like, just to indicate to you how broken the music industry was in 2012. this was also a number one album, sixth straight. Because you're Dave Matthews band, bitch. If you put out in album, it's going to be number one. But you only had to sell 266,000 copies to hit number one.

If I had to speculate, and it's not like it's a bad album, right? It's just on the lower end of mid-Dave Matthews. It's still in Dave Matthews band. Like, the language is Dave Matthews band. It's simply just not the highest expression of Dave Matthews band. I mean, maybe Lily White wasn't over it. Maybe the vibes were off. I can't say.

I don't have a lot to say about it, but I will give a little credit to Dave Matthews, who later in that same Vulture interview, he said something to the effect of, sometimes I spent a lot of my life trying to get answers from the people around me instead of listening to myself. But after I turned 50, something happened. I realized that there are more important things than saying, okay. An example is the last album I made, so he was referring to away from the world. I think it was a great album, and then I let people convince me it wasn't finished.

I did a disservice to the music. I kept working on it and it lost a lot. It's too bad I didn't say, no, you're wrong. The music may be flawed in splinter, but it's genuine. I would like to hear the Dave Matthews cut. Sure. Or the Dave Matthews, you know, director's version. Rolling Stone, once again, proving nothing means anything, gave this three and a half stars.

But I only won't bring it up to say that this is the opening graph of that review by John Dolan. Dave Matthews is one of Rock's most underrated, pretty complex dudes in all caps. as horny as little Wayne, as troubled as Tom York, able to growl, war is the most vulgar madness, like the American sting he's always sort of been. He's got a beige Baja shirt rep and a black turtleneck soul. With the exception of calling him American, which I guess kind of he is, flawless. No fucking notes. That is a poem.

He fucking beautifully captured David Matthews to me. I agree. I think that's great. I think that's absolutely right. And I think that's the point that you and I, those are points that you and I have sort of been advocating for. And I think that's, I think it's right. That's great. We absolutely have.

We've made them throughout. 2017 is an extremely important moment in the Dave Matthews band fandom, Dave heads unite. The film Lady Bird comes out. Lady Bird. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what an important, like, what an unexpected moment in Dave Matthews fandom, or suddenly you're like, you know, having a very critical. conversation about crash with people who've never actually had a critical

conversation about crash. Yeah, we're like the cool art house, critically beloved film positions the song that has for a long time been a joke to many people in like a serious way. And I loved, I mean, she's clearly a real fan and I won't quote it here, but she wrote him like a really nice long letter to ask his permission to put it in. But the way it's framed where she, Lady Bird, it comes on in the car with the Timothy Shalomey character who's like, I'm reading Noam Chomsky, most insufferable teenage boy of all time

and who this song comes in the radio and he's like, I hate this song. And it's like the first time we're up against this guy that she's sort of besotted with but who's awful, she stands up for herself and she says, actually I love it. I fucking hate this song. I love it. I actually want to go to prom. It's used in a really interesting way

for what the song is, you know, which it is a polarizing song and like the Nome Chomsky reading twats of the world will shit on it and be like, you know, I mean, no offense to Nome Chomsky, I'm sure, you know, go off, King, read your ein rind or whatever, but like, they're going to be so mad. I know. You just ripped this scab open and then poured salt in the wound and it was beautiful. I just thought it was awesome. I felt validated.

I felt validated in that moment. Okay, in 2018, David Matthews and his band put out an album called Come Tomorrow. I want to point out, this is the first Dave Matthews band album that comes out in the streaming era, in the era where Spotify album music, these things are like the actual go-to platform for listening to music, right? Because before it was 2012, it didn't really exist like that.

I would say I don't love it, but it has its moments. I wrote about this album kind of at length, And it was, but it was as much about processing sort of my fandom sort of disenchantment maybe with the band. Especially, I think it's important to know that like this album comes out in 2018, not only the streaming era, but we're in the Trump era. You know, the Charlottesville disaster has happened. The Nazis had shopped at Home Depot picked up all their, uh, tiki torches. Yes, that's right. And it's not to say that like the Dave Matthews Band doesn't respond to that because he certainly do.

But I feel like this album, at this moment, kind of soft pedals the difficulty that folks are facing. And I just don't feel like it ever kind of rises to the occasion of that time. And I was, I remain, I think, disappointed in that. I'm going to push back on that. Yeah, please. I think it's naive to think that an album of music from a popular band, could or should do anything to ameliorate the feeling of civil unrest in a country driven by, you know, who's president and what's happening.

I'm not suggesting it ameliorates that I'm saying a response to it. And I think that... But that's not ever been, that's not ever really been the vibe. I totally disagree. I think he's had his, Dave Matthews had his moments of talking broadly about the atrocities of war and specifically things that resonate with him, South Africa, without actually really getting that specific besides like maybe cry freedom. But Dave Matthews Band is not a political band.

Never have been. I almost entirely disagree with that point. I think they're an incredibly like subtly political band. What's more political at this moment than like these ideas of like stepping outside of your busy fucking work week to actually like just enjoy being a lot? Well, I mean, that's that's what I'm saying, right? And it's like, that is what Dave Matthews band does to be political, is to offer, not to be reductive, but like, offer joy and respite. I think it's deeper than that, though.

I think, like, what they've, at their best, what they've offered is, like, the sense that we should enjoy our lives, but also the sense that we should square up against bullshit. And I think the problem with this album is not that it, like, it's like not out of change hearts and minds, but it simply, to me, never squares up against the fact in any. substantive way that like there is bullshit to square up against it. I think the fact is like the self that's being expressed here is pretty, it's like for the first time in my estimation of a day Matthews man really facile and it's like there's not a lot of depth to what is being expressed. And I think the thing I have always looked for from whether being a kid or an adult going back in the listening's albums is like a depth of expression, a complication. of feeling. And I don't actually think the feelings expressed on this album are very complicated.

And I think that's, to me, the rub. Like, does it have to be overtly political? No. Does it need to acknowledge that, like, the self is kind of roiling right now, like, that it's, like, really complicated? I would hope so as a listener. Like, that's what I'm looking for. But I think it kind of, I think it kind of does. Like, I think Samurai Cop where Ojoi Begin is, like, loosely about that, right? I've never heard it that way, but I remember we begin the same. We lose our way in fear and pain. I love that song.

I want to say one of my favorite Dave Matthews band songs. Isn't that crazy? That song just feels to me like, let's all hold hands and a hug. And like that's some bullshit happening in 2018. Like, I don't think that's like an actual sentiment to be expressed like at that moment. I think it was like inescapable and unavoidable. all of the like unending divisiveness, misery, anger, horrible shit coming from out of that man's mouth, out of racist fucking shit.

But not that it hasn't always existed, but that we had to know about it all the time because of the internet and you didn't before. So I think responding, like expecting some sort of bigger response is almost commensurate with how much we had to endure that and still do. I don't think there's like that much naivete or ignorance or unawareness or lack of awareness in the day Matthew Spans catalog about like the bad shit that's happening. I think that's always been there. I guess I just, I think we're just to agree to disagree.

Samurai cop is a pretty good song though. I love that song. I love a lot of these songs. I really like Here On Out. I really love that girl as you. I see you. Virginia in the Rain, classic, horny song. Also, like, it seems like a number of these songs were written earlier, like, 2013, 14, 15.

So it's like they're not responding because they weren't, they were written at a different time. Jason P. Wood Perry, former guest of the show, somehow convinced pitchfork to let him review this album on their website, which is crazy. They gave it a five. Do you want to know a funny story, speaking of critical? consensus. Yes. I believe that the day that my piece on National Public Radio ran, that no less than Dave Matthews, showed up at the NPR studios to play a tiny desk concert. Oh, no. And I don't know to what extent that was awkward for anybody. I didn't really ask. I was in Maine, so I was far away from the tiny desk. But yeah, that happened. Pretty interesting, I think. Yeah, that is interesting. Well, that kind of leads us up to

2023, the new David Matthews band album, Walk Around the Moon. Who produced it, Grayson? John Elisha produced it. We should also mention Boyd Tinsley was dismissed for sexual misconduct allegations. Correct. Against someone in his other band.

Really dark phase in everyone involved life, it seems like. Yeah. Not a really, really above her story to read. Yeah. And especially just given all the tragedy that had be fallen, Dave Matthews and with the death of Lorraine more. But, you know, I will say, to his credit,

Dave Matthews and interviews is always so graceful. You know, he never, he never really throws anyone under the bus. It's just like a master class in humility and grace. Can I say something positive, Yassie? Yeah. I like this album. I think it's good. I think it's good, too.

Tell me about it. You've listened to it now, I think? Yeah, I quite like it. I think it's almost to me, like, bear with me, because I'm saying this in a positive way, it's almost like, can we get Dave Matthews band? No, we have Dave Matthews band at home. But the, like, the Dave Matthews band we have at home is quite good. It's like, we're not reinventing the wheel, right?

But it's great. versions of things that were familiar with. Does that feel fair to you? Yeah, absolutely. Like Madman's Eyes, which was the first single, we're back to mashallah Dave ours, you know? Middle Eastern vibes, flavors. The guy might as well be wearing flannel pants

and playing a Tibetan Freedom concert for God's sake. I love it. Well, I mean, and this is, to what you wanted, this is, these are, these songs have, have more of what you wanted from the last album, no? Yes, to repeat myself. I like the record. I think it's good. And I think it's a regrouping of sorts. It's really interesting, right? Like, Leroy Moore is been out of the picture for a long time, and Boy Tinsley has been fired from the band. There's like this new core kind of happening,

this like solidifying core. Jeff Kaufman is still here. Rochon Ross is here. And now they have a new member, Buddy Strong. And your friend Tim Rinalds is back. And it is like, there's this new band happening. And they seem to be responding to that in this way that has that old energy, has some of that old gravitas, I think, and applying it to these songs that, like, are sometimes heavy and sometimes really light. And it does feel kind of like they're stepping into, like, this new phase of being that doesn't feel contrived, frankly, it feels fresh. And I like it. I think it's nice to hear this band play in this way. I do too. I think there's a lot of incredible songs on here that you're right. They do in some ways feel really fresh. Again,

I don't think they're like reinventing the wheel. I don't think this is an album that you're going to put on and be like, I cannot believe Dave Matthews band made this song. You know, like that's not happening. Like the ocean and the butterfly, what a beautiful song. I think one thing too is, you know, John Elisha here who's like, considers himself like a super fan who kind of, you know, just stayed committed to the band. from their early days and has, you know, since become a fairly established producer, but he's back here. Like, there is, like, this sort of incubating narrative to this thing,

where they're kind of starting small again and building outward. To your point, Yossi, I don't think that, like, this album tries to do too much, but I think it does what it tries to do very well. And I think it's nice to hear, it feels like a classic Dave Matthews Band album, but I don't mean, like, as a classic, I just mean it, like, feels like a return to form in a way that is nice. It's like leftover pizza, babe. You know what I mean? It's not

the same as when the pizza came hot piping fresh to your door, but it's still damn good. I'll still eat it. It's still pretty good. Yeah, break free, I think, is my favorite song on here. I love it. We're on an upswing in the Dave Matthews band catalog, and I think it's

no coincidence that walk around the moon came out on my birthday. I don't think it's coincidence either. That's God, babe. Happy birthday, Yossi. Thank you. Do you think that there should be another Dave Matthews solo album at this point? Seems like now is the time.

I would love it. Because it does feel like all the songs I respond to most on the subsequent post-busted stuff era, Dave Matthews band albums are songs that I could see being Dave Matthews solo songs. So for me personally... Yeah, I think it would be nice. Or even just... What about a Dave Matthews and Timbernails? studio dual album. That could be interesting.

Would love it. Would love it. Okay, we've reached the part of the episode where we get to hear from some real fucking Dave heads, babe. Let's roll that footage. I got into Dave Matthews band when I was a freshman in high school because my older sister would drive us to school and she had all of his albums. I convinced my mom to pull me out of school early. The day crash came out so you go to Tower Records and buy it. The live albums, the bootleg live albums.

I'd been listening to bootleg live versions of stuff like tripping billies and whatnot. I couldn't wait to hear the studio version. And continuing in the tradition of older sisters, always having better taste in music, she kind of opened that door for me and introduced me to him. So I was 14, and I came across a copy of Live at Luther College, Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds. and I picked up a guitar and I learned every song. I got my first guitar in 1992

when I was 11 years old. It was a Yamaha acoustic guitar. My dad told me he wouldn't buy me an electric guitar because in his words, he wanted me to learn real guitar before I played anything else. And that was the first time I'd ever played the guitar

and I haven't put it down ever since. I've easily seen them over 20 times. Everything from Dave and Tim Acoustic to live at the Horde Festival. festival back in 1994 with John Popper. About 20 times seeing Dave, they were like really good. Just a really, like, seasoned band with some really catchy songs. And then after she graduated, I kept up with our little tradition and I would listen to him when I was driving to school.

Those first couple records, yeah, that brings me back. So here I am playing in my bedroom for two years before I ever played out in front of anybody. And Dave Matthews drops under the table and dreaming, and all of a sudden, I become the guitar guy at the party and playing acoustic guitar was cool. Best thing that's ever happened to me. I had him on, like, my soccer game warm-up mix. So he was with me throughout high school,

and I feel like into my adult life has always been kind of something that I go back to. Not to mention he's got some of the best players around, like Carter Beaufort, Stefan Lassard, Leroy Moore, RIP, He's a weirdo and he's great. There's a lot more to say than that, but that's it for now. I mean, what is not to agree with? These are our people. Hell yeah, brothers and sisters and everybody else.

Thank you for contributing. Well, Grayson, it's been a joy and a pleasure, and I really appreciate you coming on the program again to do David Matthews band with me. Come back next week for a new episode of Bandsplay. Goodbye. If you liked what you heard, today, subscribe for more episodes of Bansplaine.

Our guest today was Grace and Haver-Curran. You can follow him on Twitter at Currency. This episode was produced by Jesse Miller-Gordon and edited by Adrian Bridges with help from Justin Sales. Executive producers for Bansplaine are Gina Delvac and me, Yossi Salick. Huge, huge thanks to the Dave Matthews mega fans, aka Dave Heads you heard on this episode,

Anthony Bouloncini, Joel Riley, Hayden, Tobin, Ryan Davy, and Barry Kaplan. Our gorgeous and catchy theme song was composed and performed by Bethany Cozantino and Jennifer Clavin and graciously recorded by Carlos Delagarza in Los Angeles, California. Special thanks to our producer emeritus, producer Dylan, aka Dylan Tupper Rupert. And also Casey Simonsonson, Robert Adler, Leah Edwards, David McDunna, Dana Mearsson, Jessica Hopper, and Bosch again. Come back every Thursday for a new episode of Bansplaine on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcast. Did you know this?

Yeah, of course I knew that. I'm the guest expert on Bandspoint.