Bandsplain - Dave Matthews Band with Grayson Haver Currin

Episode Date: April 29, 2021

Patron saint of Yasi’s heart and soul, Dave Matthews, finally gets the Bandsplain treatment. Yasi bros down with journalist Grayson Haver Currin on their shared fave, Dave Matthews Band, with special tributes to 90s rock radio’s most quintessential fandom. Follow Grayson Haver Currin on Twitter @currincy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's with this band anyway? I don't get it. Can you please explain? Wait, like, Bansplain? Welcome to Bansplain. I am your host, Yossi Sallick. This is a show where very smart experts explain cult bands and iconic artists to me and to you, using their nuanced musical understanding, their hot takes, and the music that they love. Today's episode,

You guys, today's episode is about the Dave Matthews band. You knew it was coming. You know it was coming and now it's here. If you don't know what Dave Matthews sounds like, I simply do not believe you, but here is what Dave Matthews sounds like. My guest today is Grayson Haver-Kurren, who has written about music for Pitchfork,

the New York Times, NPR, the Guardian, Rolling Stone, Mojo, the Village Voice, No Depression, your high school newspaper, my high school newspaper, just kidding, and a bunch of other places. He's also the hiking columnist for Outside Magazine. He completed the Appalachian Trail in 2019, certainly not a big deal, and because he's insane,

is now preparing to hike the Pacific Crest Trail this year. More crucially, though, he wrote his high school senior term paper on Dave Matthews and was also able to give it to Dave Matthews, who read it and signed a copy. which still hangs in his childhood bedroom. Welcome, Grayson. Hey, I should clarify that I don't live in my childhood bedroom anymore,

but my parents insist on it being there forever, which is not awkward. That's some white people shit, and I get it, and it's cute. My wife, Tina, disagrees. She creeps her out and every time it sees it. I just like the idea that the Dave Matthews' term paper is hanging on a wall of a room somewhere, like a museum. Do you want to know what the name of it was? Obviously.

Every day, every dudes. Yeah, I have a follow-up question. Were you bullied in high school? No, because I have a very large brother who's like an exceptional athlete. So I was pretty safe, but I should have been bullied in high school, frankly. It seems so, yeah. Just, you know, on the strength of this one anecdote alone. I mean, it's a pretty indicative anecdote.

You know, all that matters is that now decades later, you're here to talk to me about a shared, can I say hero? Folk hero? Can we go with that? We might as well. Folk hero, David Matthews, who has brought so much joy to the world. Yeah, I think you can go with hero. Okay. For those people that don't know, why don't you tell us who Dave Matthews is and who his band is? Who is Dave Matthews band?

Sure. Dave Matthews. David, David John Matthews's band. That's right. Put some respect on his name. Yeah. You know, credit where credits do. So there have been several lineups of this band, but sort of the classic lineup that emerged in the early to mid-90s was a five piece and a strange lineup of folks.

So Dave Matthews or David Matthews, as you prefer, was a singer-songwriter of the band. He was a bartender who had moved around. Born in South Africa and moved around between South Africa, New York State and in England for a while. And eventually settled in Charlottesville, became a bartender at Millers, right there kind of on Town Square. And met some musicians in town, some jazz players, if you will, and a teenage skateboarder named Stefan Lassard, who is the bass player. They decided to get themselves a fiddle, as you do in the mountains of Virginia. Sure.

And the violin player who has since left the band under some controversial circumstances. I was named Boyd Tinsley, the drummer, the man of the hour, one of the best and happiest people that I've ever encountered. And any of us have ever encountered if you're alive, it's Carter Beaufort. And Leroy Moore was the saxophone player. LaRoy Moore died almost 20 years ago now, I think. And he's been replaced sort of by a succession of players. And, you know, other folks have kind of gone in and out of the band. Tim Reynolds, of course, if you know Dave and Tim.

I sure do. He is in and out of the band and some other folks, too. That we'll probably talk about here in this fun-filled half hour of Dave Matthews' enthusiasm. That's cute that you think it's going to be half hour. This show is going to be like two hours long. Grayson, I have to mention that part of the reason that I invited you in particular on is because when I say I love David Matthews band, people are like, well, that's great. You have famously bad taste and they're bad and shut up. But you have a pedigree in which you have a track record of having, at the very least,

critically agreed upon good taste. You were the resident black metal critic of pitchfork. You're shaking your head, but that is what I like to call you. Thank you. I think. All I'm trying to say is that you have varied and good taste and to back me up here is what I'm saying. In addition to bringing you, who brings the weight of expertise, I wanted to bring up some backup. So we tapped a few notable fans to reinforce our argument.

Let's hear from them. Howdy there? This is Riley Walker. I do consider myself a lifelong rider in the caravan. Do you know what he's talking about? No. But is it soothing to hear a. man like in his gorgeous falsetto singing love songs about weed to you? Yes.

I find them to be one of the great acts of the 20th and 21st century. Here's a band that has a jazz drummer, jazz trained saxophone player, one of the most unique songwriters. He mixed all those things together and it was a top 40 band. I've actually met Dave Matthews. I covered a whole record by him, the Lily White Sessions. And he reached out to me. And I gotta tell you, he's really, really cool. Dave is literally one of the coolest and most down-to-earth people or celebs, whatever word you want to use. Dave's like a nice dude, and he's so happy and, like, infectious and sweet. And I just love him. He's the best.

No surprise that 30,000-plus people want to see it every single time that they come to town. And I'm so glad to have the records in the lives. shows and I can't wait for the summer caravan to come back. Those beautiful musings were from Riley Walker, author Samantha Irby, and musician Rustin Kelly. Those are such beautiful testimonials. I don't want to use this time to get too into the weeds of mentioning my personal time with David Matthews, which was very brief and Spotify, earmuffs, but was during a listening session at Spotify that I probably wasn't supposed to be at,

but somehow talked my way into. He was literally the nicest man I've ever met. All hyperbole aside, for being the great David Matthews, he had just a twinkle in his eye, a humility, a firm handshake. He's very tall. He made prolonged eye contact with me and part of my soul left my body that day. And that's all I'm going to say about that. He truly is. He deserves everything that he's gotten because he is clearly a good and kind person. Yeah. I mean, I think that there is a lot of reason to kind of snipe at anyone's love of the Dave Matthews band in 2021. But I think that there is also so much good to unpack there. And there's so many threads that are kind of tangled within that band that I can draw a fairly, it's not a straight line, but I can sort of

lay the path out from liking the Dave Matthews band to liking black metal. Incredible. To me, it makes perfect sense or to like liking drone music, which is, you know, like a long-time passion of mine. And like, I know how I got there from the Dave Matthews band, like super traceable. See, this is why you're here. We need to hear a song. We need to kick this off with this song.

I know you don't want it. I know what you're going to do. You know what we have to do. We have to do it. Yeah, of course. You can't have this show. There's no way to get around or under. I know.

Let's hear Crush into me. You're listening to a music and talk episode. What's that? It's where full songs and talk segments can live together in gorgeous harmony, only on Spotify. Do you dream of making your own music and talk show? Well, guess what? You two can create one for free.

with Anchor, Spotify's podcasting platform. Get started today at anchor.fm slash music and talk. That's anchor.com slash music and talk. Okay, that was Crash Into Me off of 1996. 19996's smash hit album Crash. Smash. What a smash. This song gets a bad rap, I think.

just off top. It is a wonderful song. It's, I mean, yeah, it gets a bad rap. I was thinking about this today. Like, can crash into me the song ever eclips like its punchline status? Is it that, is it good enough to be more than like the punchline it has become? And it's, you know, it's like a cool love song, but it's kind of creepy. It kind of like now makes me think, I don't know, man. Like, what are you writing about here? Like, what's going on? I mean, is it creepy? Yes, but all love songs are creepy and codependent if you listen to them. But it is, it is like an interesting song. And I think maybe an interpretation of the song that kind of is a little more interesting. You know, like, just think about like satellite or ants marching or think about these other Dave Matthews songs, which precede this hit.

And from a pretty early point, you know, kind of as soon as they started this band, Dave Matthews was writing about sort of technology or like this loss of privacy. Like this, you know, there was this Orwell thing happening in his songs from the beginning. And so maybe Crash is more self-aware than we think it is, which is kind of the only defense I can offer of like the lyrical conceit of this song is that he sort of knows that it's creepy and is fine with that. And that's kind of the loss of privacy is, you know, the romantic gist of the song. This was a William Gibson moment where David Matthews foresaw social media robbing us all of our privacy. And he, like the artist that he is, put it into a metaphor of a man watching a woman through a window.

Yes. And you know what? People are not, they're not hip to this, okay? They're not woke to Dave Matthews and his prescience. I will say the chimes in Crash. The name of the band is Dave Matthews band, but it's impossible to appreciate this band with talking about Carter Beaufort.

The man behind the chimes, amongst other percussive instruments. Yeah, the 180 degrees plus a percussion. You know, I think that Carter Beaufort, one could say, probably inspired a generation of drummers who are doing too much all the time. But I think he does what he does so well and is so in tune with what Dave Matthews

is trying to accomplish in the song. And the chimes to me in that song are just, they're just gorgeous. They're fucking awesome. They're gorgeous. This is like a more cowbell moment, Blue Oyster Colt, but with chimes, and this song wouldn't be what it is

without the chimes. It's a good song. No ladybird, but it's a good song, and I think it's going to get its comeuppins. I would say, though, Grayson, and I think you'll be able to speak to this more intelligently than me, this is not really a representative of Dave Matthews band song, which is, you know, why it was maybe so palatable and big and packageable for the radio and the music video, which we have not yet talked about, which is truly unhinged. And really a moment in time where the 90s were just such a,

what's the word for it? I don't know. It was like where the universe curved was the 90s. It was like this video has Dave Matthews. I believe he's wearing like, what are those little pants called that like, you know, people in the court used to wear pantaloons. It's wearing little pantaloons. It's definitely like a vintage costume. He's prancing through the woods. And then there's geishas there also. It's literally insane. And that was okay then. You could do that and put that on MTV and people would say, okay, cool. Yeah, there are a lot of strange marketing moments within this. And I think within the career of this band, I think one thing to know is that like Dave Matthews, when he started this band, he kind of came to it from acting. Like he wanted to be an actor in Charlottesville and was in some plays.

So you're saying theater kid energy? Like a little theater kid energy, like kind of misguided theater kid energy. And he's since like, it's been in lots of television shows and movies, including House. Um, excuse me, the best episode of House where David Matthews comes and is a piano prodigy, very. tightly controlled by his father. Like your life? What life? Your life.

Playing the piano. Going on tour. Scoring girls left and right. I don't like girls. You guys should check it out if you enjoy Dave Matthews. In that episode, it's kind of like Dave Matthews' father is staring through his window where in the dress he wears so well. So well. He's got his ball and his chain.

Damn. It's beautiful. Thank you. Okay. So go on. He was an aspiring actor. He is very handsome, so I understand that. But, you know, in terms of thinking about crash as a Dave Matthews song, right?

Like, I think one of the things that makes this song really interesting is that this is a, like, quasi-jam band, right? Like, they sort of jam songs live. They play them for longer. But, like, they're not, like, besides Carter, the drummer, their chops are fairly limited. They're not The Grateful Dead. They're not fish. They're not any of these insane instrumental bands. They are a jam band that plays with, like, the limited version.

of like a college kid with a guitar. So like you can learn Crash and you can woo somebody with Crash. And that is part of the charm of this band is that like they ride that line between like virtuosity and easy accessibility. And I think in that way, Crash is kind of a representative song. But then I think they become more interesting when they start to push the limits of their playing and when they sort of open it up a bit. And in that sense, I don't think Crash is very representative of.

when they're at their best, if that makes sense. I need to interject just to, like, Aaron a grievance, which is that none of my guitar playing ex-boyfriends would adhere to my requests to play crush into me for me. Not one of them. They flat out refused. Well, you said ex-boyfriend, so we're all good here. Yeah, that why do you think?

Bunch of fucking losers. I just want to make sure to clarify here that I do have the utmost respect for most of my ex-boyfriends. Yeah, that's right. Do you want to go into another song that you feel is maybe more wholly representative of Dave Matthews band to you at least. We could certainly do that. What if I throw you a choice and you pick?

I would love that. I love having options. Let's go with number 41. Done. Or seek up. No, sorry. We're going 41. Number 41 is my favorite Dave Matthews band song.

It's everyone's favorite Dave Matthews band song. How dare you? Should be. What a jam. That was number 41. God, that just hits. It's so hard. I will tell you that in college, I did a lot of ecstasy.

Sorry, Dad. And I was in charge of making the burned CDs because I'm elderly. And I always put this song on there. And my friends allowed it. Was your go-to version of the song, the album version? I like the album cut. I think the album cuts good. It's exquisite.

It is exquisite. I think like the layering, Steve Lillywhite, you know, who had made you two records before. Like, I think the way that this. guy arranges these sounds like the horns versus the guitar is fantastic. I think a few things about this song that really still compel me. One is that it's pretty sad, right? Like it's kind of, you know, the vibe is that like they've kind of had a falling out with an early lawyer. They kind of don't know what to do. They're kind of like, own the rise as a band and they need, you know, they need some help. And it's about these bittersweet feelings of like, we were with you kind of at

the start. This song is about their lawyer. Yeah, kind of it's about, it's about, it's about their lawyers, the five. Why did you tell me that? That's such a bummer. Did I ruin it? Yes. No, but it, but it, that's the point of the song. It's so bittersweet. Like, it's this love song. It's about sort of trying to move on without someone who's been an integral part of your life. And it could be about anything. It could be about your, your dog. Like, it has that bittersweet feeling and it's so perfect. But I think the thing about the song that is compelling is like, as soon as you hear it, you never forget it, right? Like the hook sticks with you, just like crash.

Yeah. But they open it up live so much. And this is sort of like one of their trademark songs in terms of being a quote-unquote jam band. You know, Leroy Moore, the saxophone player just really went to town in this song. And the baseline is fantastic. It's the best. I'm sorry I ruined it. No, it's okay.

I can compartmentalize. What sort of man goes by? I will bring water. I don't know what that means, but I love it so much. I think about it all the time. It's about how their lawyer wouldn't bring them water bottles in meetings.

I'm kidding. I made that up. I, Grayson, stop it. Why won't you ever be glad? It melts into wonder. I came in praying for you. Why won't you run into the rain and play and let tears splash all over you?

Do you think these lyrics make sense as you read them? Like, that's something I think about as an adult person with these songs. I think about these lyrics. They really hit for me because it's like such the feeling of like a person you can't help. You know, like the idea of a person that's lost to you and you can't help them and you wish that they could just have joy and you can't have joy for them. And it's frustrating and sad and you all you can do is like pray for them and hope that they could enjoy life, you know?

I'm crying. Yeah, I hope it's okay. I think to that point, you know, Dave Matthews is someone who historically has gotten a lot of guff for his voice. His voice is gorgeous. He sings like an angel. Who said that? A lot of people say, and he has made this joke before that he sings like Kermit the Frog, which he kind of, it's Kermit like, it's Kermit like, but I think like in this song, you know, he doesn't have much of a range, but he keeps reaching for these falsetto notes in this song. And it does sound like he's crying. Yeah. Like it sounds like he sells that drama. And the thing is, is like, this is a band that would play what, 100, 150.

shows a year and we play this song most nights or like half the nights and every time this guy is like selling this very you know pre boni vera falsetto i'm crying because i'm very sad that my lawyer left me or my lawyer fucked me over it's beautiful and i think he sells that drama very well look i don't know i don't pretend to be privy to the innermost workings of david matthews's mind and soul but a big thing about the music for me is that when he sings these songs, I really feels like he means it. And that sounds corny and like I'm making a joke, but I'm really not. Like that's part of like what, again, I have a purely emotional connection to these songs. Like I'm learning a lot from you about the actual production and construction and stuff. But, you know, the singing is sincere to me. It comes

across as sincere. And okay, here's what I want from my music. I want emotional manipulation. That's what I want. I don't want anything else. I don't want to be like, isn't that guitar line cool? I don't fucking care if the guitar line is cool. I want to feel something. I love that point sort of, you know, I'm sure we'll get into this. Like, to me, kind of the Dave Matthews band ends like around 2005.

After they made the album every day and they started making a series of what I would say are pretty bad records. And I'm sure we will disagree about this point. But I think that that stems in a large way. In the late 90s, they were making this album with Steve Lill, Lily White, who'd made up most of their records before, and Dave Matthews kind of fell off the deep end, right? Like, he was drinking too much, he was partying too much, he was really in his feelings. But they were making these songs that at this point were totally what you're talking about.

Like, they're super sad or they're super, you know. Hopeful. There's a lot of them. Yeah, there's the hopeful one. There's true joyous songs. Yeah. And the guy is in his feelings completely. And almost like, he's almost realizing that if he keeps going down.

this road, it's like happy life versus these songs that are very true emotional experiences. And they chose kind of a happy life, which is fair. It's a fair choice. He deserves that. He deserves that. And I think the music kind of got less interesting, but good for him, good for all of them, really. But I really do feel like what you're saying about the material they made in the 90s and the early 2000s, that emotional vulnerability in his voice really is there. I kind of also think, I mean, this is like a theory. It doesn't hold true obviously across the board. but it's one I carry with me. This is why the, you know, the joke of like,

well, like the earlier stuff. You know, at the very least for like guitar-based music, like younger people, I guess, just have less of like the membrane between them and the world is thinner. And there's something way more visceral and like also less overwrought when people are first making music that can't be replicated 10 years in. Like, you can make really good albums 10 years. in, but you're not going to make the ones that hit 10 years in, like, in that emotional connectivity way. And I think, you know, that is really true here, too. Like, these first two Dave

Matthews band albums are really, that membrane was, as we just talked about, you know, extremely thin. Like, I mean, he was basically an open wound. Sure. You know, I think what you also see with a band like this that, you know, that became maybe the biggest American band every summer. They would go on these marathon tours and your life becomes so insulated. You know, you're in and out of a bus, you're in these lavish back sage areas or whatever. Whereas five, six, seven years before, you're kind of like grinding it out every day and like life is hard and you kind of experience that in a more frank way. And I think like the dude, Dave Matthews is someone who had a lot of tragedy in his life. His dad died when he's young. His sister was killed, you know, like a murder

suicide, you know, like very difficult stuff. And that is so present in those early songs. Totally. Speaking of this, like can you point now to a song. that's like very early on. You know, just like what introduced Dave Matthews band to the world, you know, when they were first starting out? What's like an early song that like started to get some traction? Sure. I mean, I think probably the classic one is, you know, it's a song that was floating around

when they were a club band and then wound up being like the hit of their like major label debut, which would be Ants Marching. That was Ants Marching off of Under the Table and Dreaming. I can't remember what. year that came out in 1994? I think so, yeah. Is it? Yeah, four.

Talk to me about this song. Talk to me about why this song connected with people or like why it kind of brought up the Dave Matthews band profile. Because as you kind of mentioned previous to this, that they were like really like a bar band. So this is 94, right? And this song, you know, this song had been kind of floating around for the Dave Matthews band.

Before that, it was on their kind of full length self-release, I think. Debute, remember two things. And, I mean, think about that moment. like, you know, going to the office, corporate culture, the internet is kind of emerging. Everything is like, you know, we're starting to stare at like personal digital assistance or whatever, Palm Pilots, is that what they were called? And, you know, the sort of rat race is really pretty intense at that moment. I was pretty young, but that's my experience and memory of it.

And I think that that song in a really sing-songy, cheery way captures like the despair of fuck, I have to go to the office and do my job right now. and that's maybe not what I want to do. And I also think that it's worth noting that just the rhythm section of that song is insane, that again, Stefan Lassar's bass line just is perfect. And I think the playing maybe of that, like the blues traveler vibe, right? Like the harmonica era. And suddenly you have this violin and horn who are having this duet.

And it just surprised people. I think it just sounded not like anything else that was on the radio at that moment, maybe besides blues traveler. Well, yeah, you were like, think about this time. And I'm like, okay, this is Nirvana. This is 1994. This is peak grunge, right? I think it's the alternative to that, right?

Yeah, it was. I mean, that's exactly. It's funny. It's like, it kind of cracked open at that point, right? 1994 is like when Alt Rock went two ways, kind of, right? It went like bare naked ladies, hoody and the blowfish, blues traveler, you know, peace to the God, John Popper. We love him.

And then it also went, you know, the other. descendants of grunge, which was like, God, I don't know, Stone Temple pilots, you know, it got even more watered down maybe like into like nickel back and stuff. That was later. But it did kind of branch at that time. Yeah. I think like, you know, I think that I think they kind of mind like some of the same feelings, which is like kind of despair with like what what it is you're expected to do in life, right? But like in a very different ways. Right. And I think kind of to the credit of someone like Dave Matthews, the branches that kind of came off of this band and this sound get more interesting, whereas like a lot of the branches that come off Kurt Cobain,

Eddie Vedder, etc., get kind of boring, kind of fast, right? Like, you don't really see a lot of ways out of that trap, whereas this music, I think, was so, had some of those same feelings, but was kind of so wide open in terms of the palette of sound and emotion that you do start to see more interesting branches. Like, I remember, I was, I guess I was like 11, 12 when this song came out. And I I remember, you know, like, riding around in the car with my mom or something and, like, you know, you'd hear a rock song and be like, okay, cool, rock song. And then you'd hear this and like, okay, cool, rock song. And then you'd hear a fiddle on the, on rock radio. Like, I grew up in the south, right? Like, the fiddle is a different thing. And then you hear this in this context of the song that at that point feels like, like, it felt like I was talking about, like, having to go to middle school or something. Like, I don't want to go to middle school. I want to go outside and play with my friends. And yeah, it just felt like a really clever encapsulation of what it was like to be a human. being having to work to live. Yeah. This is like a totally arcane thing that's stuck in my head forever.

But you remember Woodstock 99, of course, right? Like, who could ever forget the cursed Woodstock 99? I mean, never, never forget Woodstock 99 and the true American failure. But, you know, I remember like I watched that on pay-per-view. You know, I was like a 15 or 16-year-old or something. And I remember the CD came out later. The double-disc CD and like one side had like, I guess like corn and lent biscuit and the chili peppers or something and the other side was like Dave Matthews, etc. I don't even know who else's on

the disc. But I remember Kurt Fucking Loder made this joke on an MTV news segment where they were talking about this double disc coming out. And he said, you know, the one side had, you know, Limp Biscuit, et cetera. And the other side would make for a good coaster. First of all, how dare you, Kurt Loder? Secondly, imagine holding Limp Biscuit in a higher esteem than Dave Matthews man like dying on the hill of Limpisket. Here's a fun fact. We'll just revisit this. Both Fred Dirst and Dave Matthews are guest stars on the TV show House. You've really exceeded my expectations as a guest, bringing even house knowledge in here. This is also a funny time of music where, like, I mean, the 90s was peak snark, right?

Like, that was like, that's the mouth feel of that generation. However, Dave Matthews band and Blues Traveler and Houdie and the Blowfish, like, they made a lot of money in the industry. Like, they really were cash cows. I mean, these were big. So, you know, on one hand, you have Kurt Loder or John Norris, we don't know, shitting on it on MTV. But on the other hand, like, you have tons of people who loved it and are buying these CDs. I mean, I think so much of that, again, kind of comes back to, like, on the surface, so much of Dave Matthews's music, like, feels good to hear unless you hate it, like, unless you fist really hate it. But, like, it sounds cheery, right?

Like, so much of that music, like, like, Crash is romantic or ants marching is fun. But there is a depth, there is a grievance there that's being expressed. So if you want to latch on to something more than, I don't know, like, it's not Mbop, right? Like, which I fucking love too. But it's a different vibe. There's more going on here than sort of is on the surface, I think. Yeah, there's layers. There's layers.

Okay, so let's play another song from this album that I think was like a huge Dave Matthews band Smash hit has been covered by multiple people, including Josh Grabon and is one of my personal faves. Let's hear a satellite. That was satellite. You said off mic, Grayson, I do not know what this song is about. And I was listening and I was thinking about it. And I think it's about doing drugs.

It's probably about doing drugs. I think like a few points here. Like I've been listening to that song for almost 20 years, right? No, wait. 30 years, babe. 30 years. It's 2021. Oh, Jesus Christ.

I have been listening to the song since my Bible camp counselor gave me that CD when I was in 1995. So 25 years now. And I still don't know what the words are, actually. And I don't care. Oh, I do. Don't do it. You already ruined number 41 with the lawyer's story.

You know, and I was looking, actually this morning, I was looking at the cover of the single, like the maxi single for this song. Have you ever seen it? No. The cover of the single for the song is the very large array in New Mexico, which is like, you know, like in contact. Jody Foster, like, looking for aliens. And I got so excited because I've seen that.

And like, I told my wife, Tina, I was like, look, you know, she loves space. I was like, you know, it's the cover. And she's like, those aren't even fucking satellites. And I was like, oh, you're right. They're not satellites. Those are radio insinness. What is she a cop? Who cares?

Yeah, she's a cop. Oh, no, she's not. But, and I kind of feel like the song is just like, we were just talking about the depth of many of Dave Matthew songs. This is a song that I think is just nice to hear. It's like a summer breeze, right? Like you just want to kind of glide in it for a while. Do you write music, Grayson?

No. Okay, me neither. And let me tell you a thing that I was put onto by an I won't name musician ex-boyfriend that really like not pulled the wool out of my eyes. Like really like took the stars out of my eyes about music where like I was watching him write songs and he was just like, I was like, well, what does this mean? He was like, I don't know. I just needed the words to sound good within the, you know, measures. And I was like, what? I was like, no, every lyric of every song has a thoughtful meaning.

And he was like, sometimes I just need to put the word that sounds good. And so the word sounded good here. And I've never fully recovered from that. Like, I'm unwell still thinking about it. I get that. I mean, this song, like the picking pattern of this song is just beautiful. It's like watching light refract through a prism and become a rainbow. It's a beautiful.

But I think it sounds like drugs, though. If you, like, I know you don't know the words, but it's like, while I spend these hours, five senses reeling, I laugh about the weatherman's satellite eyes. Like someone did a bunch of mushrooms, laid down, looked at the whatever, mistakenly saw something that was probably not a satellite and was like, oh, that's funny, satellite. And then a gorgeous song came into being. I can imagine eating some mushrooms and dancing to this song on the lawn at Alpine Valley in 1997 or whatever. You've not done that? What are you doing this summer? We're going to eat some mushrooms and dance on the lawn.

to satellite. All right. Okay, Grayson, back to the matter at hand. So Dave Matthews band was kind of a bar band in the time of like the rise of college area bands coming to prominence by playing parties in bars. Is that kind of accurate? Yeah, absolutely. There was this definitely this sort of southern like frat circuit.

You know, there's, there are like famous bootleg, famous in this sort of scene in this community. bootlegs of like, you know, Dave Matthews playing frat houses or coffee shops in Charlottesville. And, you know, they definitely were a band that started in that scene, playing on tops of warehouses, playing in bars and just letting people sit in with them. A thing that is remarkable is that as they became famous, like these musicians who had played with them in Charlottesville when they were, you know, just a bar band stuck around. And like, you know, Butch Taylor, the band's pianist, keyboardist, you know, he was from that scene. and he stuck around with them, and they just started as a bar band that kind of carried along those same friends they'd met in that scene.

This was like a time where this, I mean, again, kind of pre-internet, I mean, the internet was like baby, where this is how bands got signed, right? Like, bands developed a big following in these college towns playing bars, and then an ANR would notice that there was a lot of followers, and they would come sign the band. I mean, in predating Dave Matthews band, this is like R.E.M., like we already mentioned Hootie and the Blowfish. There's like a long line of bands. Specifically, it seems like in the South. That's right. Yeah. Something that's an important part of that subculture is, you know, from the start, the Dave Matthews band, you know, as a quasi-jam band, encouraged people to tape their shows and trade them.

And that's kind of how I came into it when I was a kid. And they had this fan club too. And I remember one time my mom and I went into like their former headquarters in Charlottesville. And you would walk. We walked in, I still had them. There were these postcards that people from tour stops had, like, mailed into their headquarters to sign up for their mailing list and their fan club. And they were, like, written and stumpy postcards, right? And I'm like, please sign me up for the Dave Matthews Band mailing list. And definitely a very word of, like, word of mouth, grind it out, go to these towns and play for 100 people and then go back to the town and play for 500 people. Like very slowly building up a fan base in a very old-fashioned way that doesn't quite exist. I mean, it still exists, but it doesn't exist to the same.

stint anymore. Yeah, we talked about this a bit on the Fish episode where like Fish had a similar, I mean, again, a little bit predated David Matthews band, but like that culture of taping shows and trading the tapes really spread the word. Yeah, and I think it made their records more interesting because it made them work through the material a little more. Like nothing was ever simple. You know, if you listen to these songs, there's so many things happening and there's so many instruments all kind of vying for space. And I think that was part of just being on stage. every night in these towns and trying to like put on the best show that anyone had ever seen. And that's how people felt when the Dave Matthews band was touring the South in the early 90s.

Like this is a fucking revelation. Yeah. Fun fact. Fun inside baseball industry fact. Red Light Management, which is one of the biggest music management companies. I think they probably do other stuff like music now was literally founded because of Dave Matthews band. Like the man who I should name him because I don't. Corinne Capshaw.

Thank you. Corrin Capshaw who founded Red Light Man. was a Dave Matthews band, bar band fan and was like, I need to manage this band and I will start a hole and look at that. I don't know if he's, I mean, he would have to speak to this, but I don't really get the sense that he thought of it as like a golden ticket. It was just something where he recognized the spirit of like, here are these people, here are these young people playing this music that feels good and has some depth to it and they are willing to like play every night of the week anywhere that will have them. I think you just stumbled upon or maybe on purposely

said, I don't want to discredit your thought process, a really kind of salient point, which is that in the world of jam bands, right, which I think all get lumped together and kind of treated wholesale as the same thing. Dave Matthews band is more in the lineage of a Grateful Dead than say, like, fish. It's interesting to think about the Dave Matthews band as a jam band because they don't really, like, they jam in the sense that like their set list changed from night to night, and sometimes they add things to their songs. But it's interesting. It's not like a free form. We're going to really explore.

We're going to like get into a lot of variations on this theme. And I think that's fascinating that like they got into that grouping simply as a, as an aspect of like the culture and the sound, not necessarily because of their technique. There wasn't like a, you know, there was never like a drums segment. I mean,

there's like an occasional drum solo or like, you know, like the introduction to all along the watch tower is like a bass solo. But that's kind of it. It's not like now we're going to go into deep space vibe here. Right. It's fairly scripted. Okay, first things first, I want you to pick a song to play now.

Why don't we try some Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds or Dave and Tim in Parlance? You know, they put out a double live album, two acoustic guitars called Live at Luther College, which isn't Decora, Iowa. Shout out Decora Iowa. Let's do it. Let's hear Cry Freedom. Okay, I want to talk, first of all, what a goddamn gorgeous, glorious, beautiful song that is. And I'm still upset about people saying that Dave Matthews has a bad voice. You should all be so fucking lucky to sing like Dave Matthews.

Do you know how many men sing in bands? And it's like, who allowed you? I'm not going to name names, but I'm just saying they seem to have no problem. There's all these huge bands where men sing far worse than David Matthews. I think the answer is most of them. Most, truly most of them. I want to talk about, okay, two things. What the makeup of the fan base of Dave Matthews band, the culture around it was at this

time during the 90s in the heyday. And also maybe, again, similar to Hooting the Blowfish, why we think there was like a bit of a cultural stigma also attached to being a fan of Dave Matthews. Sure. I mean, I think those things kind of go hand in hand, right? Like, you know, sort of in at this moment or before this moment, they were a college circuit band. Their fans were, you know, mostly white frat slash sorority people from the south and expanding outward. And then those people age, right? And then like, and the band ages too. So then you kind of get into crash and like the audience starts to kind of become yuppies.

Also this, you know, the summer crowd that is kind of the same thing that you experience with the Grateful Dead or with Fish where it's, you know, there's just stigma of like smelly, Pachuoli-loving tofu burrito in the parking lot scene, hippies and lifestyle trust fund hippies or something. And like those things aren't really quote unquote cool. Like we don't like that's not, there's not much ironic detachment in that scene. Okay. That's what I wanted to say because in the 90s, it was illegal to be sincere. And what was Dave Matthews? Incredibly sincere. Incredibly sincere. And that was, you know, that's the snarkiness. That's the Kurtloader slash John Norris. We still don't know. Shitting on it, you know, like, it was illegal

to be sincere. You had to have an ironic detachment from everything or else you were corny. I mean, I think that's why Cry Freedom is kind of a really perfect Dave Matthews band song. I mean, he is writing, you know, pretty explicitly about South Africa, who's, you know, grew up in South Africa when he was 10. Steve Biko was assassinated. And, you know, that's, that is sort of the name that he's drawing on for

the song title. And, you know, it's an incredibly earnest lament for violence. And, you know, that kind of comes in and out of the Dave Matthews band's songwriting, at least until like 2005 or 2004. And he keeps hitting that point. And he's not, there is no irony there. There is no cynicism. He's just like, why can't we all fucking get along? Like, that's the point of so many of these songs. And yeah, it's corny, but it's also effective and it's meaningful. And it resonates with people. and I think it resonated with yuppies and the ilk. And I think that, yeah, it's not very cool, right? But it's still good.

And I think that that song comes from a really earnest place. And I think almost all of his songs do. I mean, some of them are kind of silly, but silly in like a Sesame Street way. Again, Kermit the Frog. I just want to know why Boni Vair is allowed to be, you know, sincere and beautiful songed. And then a Kanye West will come collaborate with him.

and everyone's like, that's cool. I think we live in a much different moment. Producer Dylan said it's because no one can understand what the fuck he's saying. I love Boni Bear, for the record. Yeah, I just think like that sort of collapse of like what is cool and what is not had not happened yet. I do think like if we're talking about Boni Vare, like a huge Dave Matthews fan. Doi, because he has good taste. Yeah.

So, you know, I think like I think that kind of slowly transitions and like those kind of boundaries have gone away. thankfully because they're stupid, right? Like, who says you can't be sincere and ironic? I would prefer to live my life being both of those things. I've made a career of it. I mean, a meager, a small, a meager career. It's not nothing to write home about, but still. You get paid for things sometimes.

I am cringe, but I am free. I will say it on record. Grayson, speaking of Bonie Verre being a huge Dave Matthews fan, you touched on this earlier, but I do want to talk a bit about the descendants of Dave Matthews band musically. Like, what artists do you think we have today that are directly drawn and a line from Dave Matthews band? I think it's so many. You know, it's, it's definitely one of those bands where maybe people would like to hide the fact that they were big Dave Matthews fans, but there's an incredibly

rich group of improvisational musicians who, you know, learned about the idea of improvisational music through someone like Dave Matthews band. We mentioned Bonifera. I mean, I, I, so I worked a few years ago on this record called the Lily White Sessions, which was the name of a scrapped Dave Matthews band album and singer-songwriter and guitarist from Chicago. Riley Walker. Name Riley Walker. Shout out Riley Walker. Shout out to Riley. Rerecorded those songs and I went and was in the studio and wrote these liner notes for it. And, you know, people are always like, oh, Riley are, you know, like, cool, ironic Dave Matthews band album. And he's like, what do you like, no, I mean, like, this is my shit. Like, he means it. Yeah, he really meant it. Actually, the let's,

Let's hear a clip of Riley Walker doing Grace's Gone. Not a happy song. Not a happy song, but God, what a beautiful song. So if you listen to that record, which is Riley's cover of the Lillowite Sessions, which is the album that Dave Matthews Band, Abandon, there are so many different directions. There are some really, like, really fucked up free jazz moments. There's that really beautiful version of Grace's Gone. There are all these different ideas.

You know, some of it sounds like gospel music. Some of it sounds like, you know, Chicago post-rock from the mid-90s. And I think that that is sort of the lesson of the Dave Matthews band for a lot of people, for a generation of singer-songwriters and musicians, which is that, like, you can incorporate so many different ideas. Like, you don't have to just write three chords and be done with it. You can take your songs into unexpected places and take your voice in unexpected places, frankly. That's beautiful.

Oh. And it's also true. I want to hear a song now. I think I'll pick this one just because I get to. This is my show and I'm in charge. No, but I think this song kind of does show like the Boni Vair, you know, influence. Let's hear Lover Laydown. And God damn, I love this song.

Okay, also off mic, Grayson showed me Bonie Vair's high school. album under the name Mount Vernon and it did in fact have some thank yous inside, one of which included Dave Matthews band misspelled. Also some other names that are notable in there, Indigo Girls, Sean Colvin. And this leads me to my next point, which is Lilifair is back, baby. It's back with a vengeance. Very exciting. It's very exciting. And I don't just mean the actual Lilifair. I mean the esprit decor of Lilith fair is back. Like, we are, Phoebe Bridgers' core. We are back with the earnest singer-songwriter, and I could not be happier myself. I love it.

It's very exciting. You know, we're probably going to get into one of those cultural debates about if you can be so sincere. But I think Fie Ridgers is someone who walks, brilliantly walks the line between being sincere and being ironic. I agree. That's what makes her so beloved by her fans, myself included. Do we think that in light of the resurgence of Lilifair-Fair core, Will our beloved Dave Matthews band get their things, their shiny prizes, their love, their admiration that they deserve? I don't think so. No. My honest answer is probably not. I can totally see being wrong.

But I think that what the Dave Matthews band did has already created so many branches like in the last 25 years. And there's so many people who are sort of carrying that torch. And they've kind of said their piece. Like I think it's understood that like a lot of these people are. from that tradition. And I don't think like, I can't imagine that being cool again in like a really deeply embraced way. I will posit that it occurred to me while we were just talking. I don't think Dave Matthews band cares about being cool. I don't think they ever cared about being cool. I don't think it was a goal or a consideration. I don't even think to this day that they care about critical acclaim. you know, this is pure speculation.

But of course, like every band wants, you know, to make good work that is appreciated. But, I mean, one of the wildest fan bases in the world is the Dave Matthews band fan base. I mean, without even putting new music out, they sell out, you know, arenas and amphitheaters. So maybe it's a moot point whether or not they are quote unquote cool again or cool ever. I think that the Dave Matthews band tried to make a very arty turn. in the late 90s. And I think it was semi-successful. But then I kind of think they walked that back.

And they realized that that wasn't the band they were interested in being, that they were interested in being maybe a more pleasant band. And they weren't interested in being cool, to your point. And I think there's something really nice about that. Like they don't feel the, like they have their projects, they do their fun things. They go on tour, they have fun. People fucking love them. People have a great time outside during the summer shows.

And that's, can that be enough? And I think long ago, they decided that it was. It's enough for me. I don't know if it's enough for me, though. As I sort of grow older, you know, I kind of think back to their late 90s period where they did start to make this shift. You know, they made the album before these crowded streets, the song The Last Stop, so many like songs with big strings, really thoughtful arrangements.

And they pursued that for a few more years. They made an album called The Lily Light Sessions that they scrapped. And I think it's their best work. But I also think before these crowded streets, this record before that does so much. much of that as well. Are you saying that they like at some point were trying harder to be maybe more critically acclaimed or to make more complicated music? I don't think that they were trying to be more critically acclaimed necessarily. I just think they were kind of digging in to some of the impulses that had always been there. I think they were trying to lean in more into the complicated

arrangements into the slightly deeper lyrics and, you know, also thinking more about where they were situated politically and artistically within rock music. Would you call that an R.D. Turn? Yes. Grayson, can you point to a song that kind of illustrates what we're talking about here, like going in the direction of more complicated arrangements, following original impulses to their logical conclusion that maybe like left the, you know, center of what Dave Matthews band started as?

Yeah, I mean, it's a pretty deep cut. I think it's a deep cut for a reason because it does not sound a lot like the Matthews band, but it's called The Last Stop, which is going to be your favorite song ever, I think. Oh my God, I can't wait. That was the last stop. Again, another incredibly sincere anti-war song from the Dave Matthews Band. Grayson, I'm not going to lie to you. I don't. That's not my favorite Dave Matthews Band. I don't love it. Tell me why. It's, you know, just not my vibe. How can I say it? I recognize. what you're saying about it and I see it.

And actually I was kind of hoping that you would take this opportunity or it was occurring to be that you might take this opportunity to make good on your earlier promise to connect Dave Matthews band to drone music. Well, this to me is like this came out in 1998. I was 15. It was like the heavy, you know, I grew up like in kind of in the country and it was the heaviest fucking thing I'd ever heard my life. Like my word.

Like this is heavy. It does sound satanic. It sounds satanic, right? And so, like, this song kind of opens up in the middle and kind of gets brighter and happier. But, you know, there's this line in this song about like nailing God to a tree. And it's like, what did you say? And that to me was like, frankly, maybe where my interest in heavy metal really began. Oh, my God.

Dave Matthews put you on to heavy metal. Yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, at this point in my life, I'd definitely listen to Metallica. I'd listen to Slayer. But, like, this song felt like a different version of that. it felt like a different version of being dark that was really interesting to me. I think the correlation between like swans and this song is not very far off. Have you told swans this and how did they feel about it?

I would never in my life do that. But I think that, you know, I think I think this is a really sincere earnest song about being bummed out that the only thing we can seem to do is human beings as fight. And it's kind of corny. but it's also really direct and confrontational. And hearing that when I was 15 and hearing the fact that like you grow up and you hear you hear Bob Dylan or you hear John Baez, like you hear sort of this version of anti-war protest songs and then hearing someone else write a song so direct about that, but then put it in through this musical filter was really eye opening to me and also made me want to listen to heavy music. I love that.

And so now just for those at home, I'm keeping score. Boni Veracanavis without Dave Matthews ban. Swans. I earlier said Radiohead, which I do believe probably existed concurrently into Dave Matthews band. I stand by my point. The Beatles, another band. I do understand that they came many decades before, but I still think that they couldn't

have existed without Dave Matthews band. And I'm going to stick to that. Come fight me, bro. Please don't hurt, Yossi. She means well in this argument. Let's hear another song. Let's hear like a Grammy smash, a Grammy winning smash. They have exactly one Grammy winning song.

And I don't, I can't explain it. I can't explain it. You can't explain that it won a Grammy? Or just in general, you can't explain the song. So this song called So Much to Say, it's the first song off Crash. It beat 1979 by the Smashing Pumpkins, Wonderwall by Oasis, Stupid Girl by Garbage, and Sixth Avenue Heartache by the Wallflowers, I think. Wow.

Wow, wow. This song beat Wonderwall. Yeah, right? Like, the Grammys, who know, like, who even knows? Why? It's not David Matthews's fault that the Grammys are broken. That's true. Let's hear so much to say. That is a song. Look, I'll say it. I'll be honest. It's not my favorite Dave Matthews band song. And I am a big fan of Dave Matthews band, but that song is not my favorite. I would say that, you know, if I watched the Grammys in 1997 and I'd never heard Dave Matthews band again, that was the song I heard, I would probably never listen again. Okay. I'll take it. That's what I got.

Because this is the week of the 25-year anniversary of Crash coming out, actually, I'd like to hear one more song off of Crash. We've already heard number 41, which is a fucking banger, a jam, a smash, it slaps. I don't know. What would you want to hear? My instinct is I kind of want to hear either Two-Step or Say Goodbye. But I would also hear Tripping Billies. I'll let you choose. Let's see.

I'm not a big Say Goodbye fan. I mean, Two-Step is kind of the classic, right? Like, it's a fan favorite. I do love that song. It's creepy. It's another kind of creepy love song. Yeah. I don't think I'd want to date Dave Matthews.

Speak for yourself, babe. Okay. So let's hear. Two-step. That was the goddamn beautiful song Two-Step by Dave Matthews band. What a jam. What a jam. How can you go wrong with Pistakado violin, right? Like, you know, just if that's the lead instrument? I never thought about that because I know nothing about music and I'm completely unqualified to host this show, but I will take your word for it. Can I tell you a story about this song? Yes, please. That's what I was going to say. Could you please tell me a story about this song?

Here is my story about the song Two Step, which is a song that can go on at a Dave Matthews band show for a very long time. And if you happen to be there with someone who is not into it, they will hate it. But I love it. I grew up in kind of the country. I had never been to New York City. And for my sort of senior trip, you know, like after I graduated high school, I wanted to go to see to New York City and see the Dave Matthews band play three nights in a row at Giant Stadium. So this is what I did. My best friend in the world and I took a train from North Carolina to New York City, stayed in New York and would go down to, I guess, New Jersey to see these shows every night. And I think for the own core of the second night, maybe, might be slightly off on that. A huge rainstorm started happening as they were playing this song. And, you know, like in the back of the song, the drums get really heavy. It's so epic and the lights are going crazy. And like thunder and lightning start like bouncing off. the side of the stadium and no one cares. Everyone is just freaking out about the song. And it was the

moment when I, like I had not seen a ton of live music as a kid because I grew up in the country. And like, this is the moment where I was like, holy shit, live music is, it's so fun. Like, like, when you can feel that way and feel like you're all in this tiny space, even though you're in a football stadium. And that was why, that's the reason I love the Dave Matthews band is simply because they gave me that feeling. And it changed my life. It changed a lot of people. lives, I think. Did you cry? I'm crying right now, but I didn't cry then. Speaking of crying and people who cry to Dave Matthews band, myself included, we talked to a bunch

of Died in the Wool, hardcore David Matthews band fans, and I want you to hear what they had to say. One of the first things that stood out to me about Dave Matthews was just how unique the band was in every respect to the word. My sisters are a little bit older. They graduated high school in 99 and 2000. respectively. They're cool dude friends who I admire who I looked up to as a preteen, had four things in common. They drove a Jeep. They knew how to play hacky sack very, very well. Had multiple frisbees and were obsessed with Dave. I honestly don't think I would have really gotten into

this band so much if it wasn't for the fair community, especially the tapers and the traders. You know, I amassed hundreds and hundreds of live shows before I got to see them for myself. By the end of live shows, the things that Dave says into the microphone just get weirder and funnier. I have such a powerful emotions attached to those experiences of live shows. Dave just kind of mumbling like, you know, the crowd loses it. I am the happiest in my life at a Dave Matthews fan concert. When you find a stranger's arm around you during Grey Street, and that is a memory that gave me a weird feeling.

You know, I've probably seen them close to 40 times, and each time it was like losing your virginity. There was always, you know, more reasons to refall in love with them. I'll always be a fan. I love those guys. Dave Matthews forever. Can you imagine losing your virginity 40 times? God, our people. Not helping us make the case for Dave Matthews band being cool, though,

with all their hacky sack and frisbys and proto being iced and, you know, but I'm really moved and I am honored to be amongst my people. Yeah, I mean, you know, I think there were some great points there. There was definitely some hyperbole. Points were made, though. Points were made. I mean, you know, the tape trading aspect, you know, the parking lot scene. Also the Dave speak, the mumble, that guy's mumble.

I think he should just be part of the show, that guy. He should hire him. Yeah, he needs to come on as the Dave Matthews band or David Matthews impersonator. Yeah, he's hired. This is common of artists that we do for bands playing, but here I really fucking hear it. Nobody is just like, oh yeah, I kind of like Dave Matthews band. You're either like fucking every show is like. like being made out with by a thousand angels and taking a bath in gold milk.

Or you're like, I hate that band. No one's just like, yeah, they're cool. They're definitely a polarizing entity. You know, he's got that voice, which some people hate, which we've discussed. Again, they're wrong. Just for the record. I need to say it 100 times. They're wrong.

Some people hate violin. Some people hate saxophone. Yeah, uncultured swine. But there are people who like just like crash. But there's no one who just likes ants marching because it's a specific sound. Yeah. I think it's cool. Like if I made art, and one could make the argument that this show is art, I would prefer, don't you look at me, Grayson? I would prefer that people either absolutely loved it or wished I was dead. I don't want anyone being like, yeah, it's fine. Oh, I'm just glad to be collaborating with you on this piece of art. Thank you. We might package it as an NFT. I hope that people hate it or love it. I really do. I much like David Matthews, do have a voice that is also a voice.

rising and not everyone is on board and that's okay they can fuck right off. Grayson, thank you for being here and helping me to create this specific piece of David Matthews band band-splain art. It's a true pleasure. I think it was a pleasure, wasn't it? It was. It was no losing our virginity 40 times, but it was pretty good. I bet that guy will listen to this episode 40 times.

At least. 41 maybe. 41 times. Grayson, what do you want to leave the people with? the David Matthews band fans, aficionados, the Dreamers, the crashing intemones. There's a song called Every Day.

And I think it's a really perfect summary of so much of what we talked about. Every day actually started as number 36, which was like, you know, the 36th song Dave Matthews wrote. And it was a bit of a sort of lovely protest song that kind of, you know, was a bit about his time in South Africa

as a kid talking about South African leaders. And they kept that song around. They'd play it live. And then they made this record kind of 2000, in 2001 called Every Day. And it was really controversial because they'd abandoned these things called the Lily White Sessions with their longtime producer and switched to Glenn Ballard, you know, kind of this rock and roll hitmaker.

Shout out Glenn Ballard. Shout out Alanis Morissette going down on you in a theater. Absolutely. And, you know, people were very upset about this fact that they were making this rock record with this rock guy. And, you know, that was a point of contention for a lot of people. Some people completely got off the Dave Matthews train. And I kind of did to an extent, too, at that point.

But they took number 36 and kind of reframed it as a song called Every Day, which is the title track. And I really think it holds up. It's a beautiful song. It's sweet. It's goofy. And they play it until they're tired of playing it. And it's, I think, a perfect way to end. Well, I too never tire of playing these David Matthews band songs.

Thank you again, Grayson. And thank you everyone for listening. Let's go out on every day. If you liked what you heard today, subscribe to more episodes of band. explain only on Spotify. Huge thank you to our Dave Matthews band expert, Grayson Haver-C-C-R-N-C-R-N-C-C-R-E-N-C-E. That's at C-U-R-R-R-N-C-Y to keep up with his gorgeous journey on the Pacific Crest Trail. Huge thank you to our satellite of Dave Matthews fans. Riley Walker, Samantha Irby, Rustin Kelly, Brandon Rosenblatt, Larissa Hill, John Van Leashout, Greta Menke, Joe Francisco and Alex Coons.

Fansplain is a Spotify original series produced in partnership with Spoke Media. This episode was produced and edited by Cody Hoffmuckle, with help from Sherita Linsoles, Dylan Rupert, Carson McCain, and Hebron Mendez. Mixing and sound design by Will Short. Our executive producers for spoke media are Alia Tavacoleon, Keith Reynolds, and Janiel Kassner. Our executive producers for Spotify are Liz Gaetly,

Gina Delvac, and me, Yossi Salek. Our catchy and gorgeous theme song was composed by Bethany Costantino and Jennifer Clavin, and graciously recorded by Carlos de Lagarza. Special thanks to Felipe Guillermo, Leah Edwards, David McDenna, Dana Meyerson, and, as always, the framed drawing of Dave Matthews I Got on Deepop, who spirit guides this entire show.