Bandsplain - Fishbone with Joseph Patel

Episode Date: January 27, 2022

Our Red Hot Chili Peppers Gen X-pert Joseph Patel, producer of Summer of Soul, returns to Bandsplain one of the Pep’s most influential, yet underappreciated, LA scene contemporaries: Fishbone. Their eclectic fusions of punk, funk, ska, metal, and soul earned these childhood friends from South Central a true cult following in the late 80s and early 90s, despite the industry racism and internal dysfunction that fumbled their mainstream potential. Follow Joseph Patel on Twitter at @jazzbeezy and watch his documentary Summer of Soul. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, hello and welcome to ban Anyway I don't get it Can you please explain Wait like Bansflain? Hello and welcome to Bandsplane I am your host Yossi Zalek. This is a show where I invite an expert guest on

to explain a cult band or iconic artist to me and to you. Today's episode is about fishbone. If you've never heard fishbone, it is time to party at Ground Zero. This is what fishbone sounds like. My guest today is filmmaker Joseph Patel. Former guests of the show you might remember

as our Jen expert from the Red Hot Chili Peppers episode, who recently made the very celebrated documentary Summer of Soul with my close personal friend, Mr. Questlove, and he is also the mutual bestie of this show's spiritual guide, Dana Mearsome. Welcome to the show, Joseph. Thank you for having me. I've been looking forward to this for so long.

Have you? Since you asked me, I've been looking forward to it. I wish that everyone in my life felt that way about talking to me. I cannot wait to read the Twitter replies to this episode. Oh, you, that makes one of us, babe. Why don't we start? Tell me why you are the guy to talk about Fishbone, or alternatively, why are you the guy that wants to talk about Fishbone?

I think Fishbone was the first band that I understood to be, cool in my life. And it was one of those things where when you discover them, it feels like you opened up a portal into like a different world that understands you better. And that happened to me in junior high.

Best feeling. It was, yeah, it's just like, and I feel like the rest of my life that has been trying to find a replication of that moment. Capturing that high again, like junkies when they can never get the first high back. And I also think they're a criminally underappreciated ban. Totally.

I mean, I think that is the story of Fishbone, right? Yeah. The log line of Fishbone is criminally underappreciated ban. It's worth pointing out that you are a native son of California, which I think is important to you doing this discussion because Fishbone is an extremely California band, Southern California. I know you're from Northern California, but still. Yeah, although I'm not a native California, but close.

What the hell? you have to go. Meaning, meaning, I grew up in California from the age of five. Okay, that counts,

fine. You don't have to be like born on the soil. It's all right. This is not running for president. This is just appreciating fishma. Well, how do you want to start?

Like I, I have obviously, as per usual, a perhaps overly robust Google Doc in front of me. I wanted to break down how Fishbone came into being

before we get started because I think from jump, their origin story is really central to who they become as an art, as an artistic unit. So I'll just dive in. Fishbone was made up of the Fisher brothers, John Norwood and Phil Fish, known as Fish, and Kendall Jones, Christopher Dowd, and Walter Kibby, who these parts of Fishbone were all from South Central Los Angeles. but they were part of a school busing program that bused them from South Central to the valley, specifically to Hale Junior High in Woodland Hills,

which is where they first met Angela Moore, who was actually from Woodland Hills and lived there. So already we have like, you know, an interesting start to our story of the meeting of two very different parts of Southern California. know. It's such a quintessentially American origin story, too. Totally. You know, like the black kids from South Central being bused to Woodland Hills. Totally. And it's funny to think that this band wouldn't happen unless that happened.

And I think that unique origin story and that sort of serendipity of it is what sort of underlies their magic. Absolutely. And it's sort of like why they're very unique and why it's very special to appreciate that band. Totally. It's interesting because as I was like diving through the whole story, it occurred to me that like one thing that we always talk about on here is that like many of the acts we talk about had to have, you know, 10 things line up for the magic to happen and to be so successful. And Fishbone has both sides of that coin, which is like they had the magical things that lined up to make them these great artists. But they also had on the flip side these things that lined up that worked against them, which is why we talk about them now in the terms of criminally underappreciated. And so that's very interesting to me as we go through talking about them how like they had both things, both like the things that lined up that made it magic and good.

and then the things that stacked against them that stopped them from being as big as they should have been. And it's the same thing, right? It's the same current that... Right, two sides of the coin. Yeah, the same current that forms them is the same current that kept them from being hugely popular. Totally.

And I think that has less to do with them and more to do with the world they existed in. Absolutely. And I think that's true right from the beginning. Absolutely. I mean, we can even say, like, We both watched the documentary on Fishbone. The first day that they're bused to Woodland Hills,

there's a group of white parents protesting this busing. This is, I guess, like I said, 1979. But Norwood, you know, says in the documentary, like, ultimately most of the kids ended up being cool. He became immediately, like, super popular. He has a very good-looking man and apparently looked like a good-looking man since he was 12 years old.

You know, it was kind of creepy, you know, Look like a little grown man running around. So he had this sort of like cult of personality around him, apparently started a fan club of his own. I think someone in the doc says he already had a beard and everyone was scared of them. I imagine him looking exactly the same, right? Same, yeah.

Just like in standing next to a locker at, you know, at 12 years old, but looks exactly the same. He's like, you know, a foot taller than everybody else. There's an interview that, Angelo did, like, much later on, like, a late-night show. And he talks about being from there. And he says, I was from Woodland Hills. I was one of the first flies to be amongst the buttermilk.

And it's like, you have to imagine that there's, you know, this tension of, like, these, like, you know, five best friends from South Central being the black kids at a predominantly white school. But then there's, like, Angelo, who's, you know, one of the only black kids his whole life in this predominantly white neighborhood. He hooks up with, you know, Norwood, because again, Norwood's now the most popular kid in the school, and they want to make music. You know, they immediately become friends, and they start practicing in South Central at the Fisher House, which, what do they call that, the aquarium?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. But I love the part in the documentary where Norwood is telling the story of how Anderlo is sending him notes in class in Funkadelic speak. Totally. Hey, baby, Bobo, let's make it funky. and, you know, Roto Ruta all day, Baba. And I'm going like, what the hell is this?

What's up with this kid? It's so funny because Norwood is probably like, who the fuck is this kid? Yeah, he's like clowning him. He's like, what are you saying? Yeah, because it's like just because he's another black kid in a predominantly white school, Norwood wasn't ready to embrace him because he's just goofy. And then he just, he cements that goofiness by sending him notes written like he was

Bootsie College. And it's such a. small detail in that origin story that I love. Especially when you keep following the story of Fishbone and get deep into their personalities and you're like, oh my God, this totally makes sense that Angela was like this from like jump, you know? It's totally not the same, but like, you know, as the only Iranian kid in my predominantly white and Asian Torrance school, like,

if I ever found another Persian kid, I was like so stoked, you know, to be like, oh my God, like be my friend, like let's connect, you know, it didn't have happen very often. But yeah, I imagine that Angela must have been very excited. I always imagined Angela to be the coolest person on the planet. Until this week, when I saw the documentary in preparation for this podcast episode, I was like, oh, he wasn't cool at all. He was a goofball. He was kind of like a dork. He was a dork, and they were cool, and they sort of embraced him and let him be his goofy

self. But that was sort of a shock to me how they portrayed. I had no idea he was. a Jehovah's Witness. Yeah. Or that he grew up as a Jehovah's Witness. I had no idea that he was like the suburban kid. Totally. And it just was kind of a revelation for me in that documentary. The part where they talk about how they had to like protect him in South Central because

he like didn't have like hood manners. He's devoid of hood sense. So every time he would come to the hood, they would mess with him. Yeah, they said they said he would show up to the hood smiling. Yeah. You can't be, babe, you can't be smiling. like that. This is not what we do here. But apparently everyone was scared of Norwood in the neighborhood, so they, like, didn't pick on Angelo. This is something that Kendall Jones said,

which I found very interesting. Because I think people would assume that they, because they were black kids in South Central, hadn't heard, you know, rock music or whatever. But he was like, we all had this advantage because we all had hippie parents who listened to Jimmy Hendricks and Cream. So we were used to listening to rock. One thing we didn't do is, forget the music we used to like just because we discovered something new. And I thought that was interesting. And they were obviously also like really into Parliament fungalic. But then, you know, they got into like reggae and they got into the specials.

And the English beat. And like all these inputs are coming in. And I think one thing about Fishbone and I want to hear your opinion is like as new influences came in, they didn't ever discard the old ones. It was just adding it to. the cake, adding it to the cake, adding it to the cake, new flavor, new flavor, new flavor, you know. It's such a brilliant description of, I think,

what ends up making fishbone and making them so different from everybody else, but also just of black kids in general is the assumption is always that they listen to one type of music. Totally. And in the late 80s, the whole world is telling you that, you know, the way radio is structured, right?

and the way it's segregated. It's white kids listen to this and black kids listen to this. And they're just like, no, that's not it at all. And nor do they feel defensive about it at all. Right. Totally. Right?

It's just like, you know, come into our world. Yeah, exactly. That sort of attitude. And I think that's such a, it's so healthy and so creative and constructive that, you know, it's sort of the foundation, I think, for what Fishbone is. Yeah.

So they're like little teens playing, you know, music and they start playing in, they start playing shows. And like, in keeping in mind, this is the late 79, early, you know, 80 in L.A. in the Valley was like prime rise of punk, you know?

Going to some of the punk rock gigs and being in the Mosh pits was a really good reason to go berserk. You're mad about the racism out of here in the valley. You're the only black family out here. You know, say what you. you will about punk and maybe some other facets are different later. We get into

pro punk and stuff. But like at this time, punk was really inclusive, right? So like, there weren't a lot of black punks in the scene, but like they went and were like, can we play a show and they were like, yeah. And like they played their first show at Madam Wong's. And they're straight up like babies. Like they were still in high school.

We got their first gig at Madam Wong. We were excited because it was a mecca for punk rock acts. You know, they were breaking them all the time. And a lot of people were at this first show and talk about how amazing it was. It was just this like chaotic, you know, there's whatever, six or seven of them on stage. There's no real lead singer, this insane energy. Then flying all over the stage to the point that all the mic stands had been knocked down

within the first, like two songs. People loved it and they started playing shows with like everybody, Dead Kennedys, Flipper, Circle Jerks, Red Hot Chili Peppers, like all over. There's a lot of parallels, I think, to the bad brain story in D.C. Totally, I was going to say. Yeah. Spiritual precursors, totally. Yeah, and it's like the early punk scene is very inclusive. And for my friends who grew up in that DC punk world,

it was notable that there was an all-black punk band, but it wasn't like as big as we make it out to be now, right? Totally. And I think probably similar feelings with Fishbone in L.A. at that time. Yeah. I think what was maybe more noticed. was that black kids didn't come to their shows. And they wanted that.

Like, they would ask their black friends, like, come to our shows and, like, they're friends from South Central. And they were like, mm-mm. I tell a lot of black people, y'all need to come see Fishbone, man. It's good music. It's funky. It's black music, too.

We're not trying to hear none of that string of hair. White boy music. I would get the response is what I would get in return. Yeah. Their audiences were just predominantly white, and that's what it was. And I think they were bummed on that. You know, I don't think that's, like,

I think they wanted it to be a mix. It's ironic, right? That they are a black band playing to predominantly white audiences, and they can't make it big. Yeah. Right? It's like, in order to make it big, they still needed a black audience. Yeah.

And I just want to say, because this is something I didn't realize until I was doing this research, they didn't only play punk shows. Like, in the beginning, apparently Lear Cohen had seen them, and he had this club called Mix Club. and he would have them open for hip-hop artists. Like they opened for Run DMC, the first time Run DMC played in Hollywood, they opened for Ice T, they opened for Houdini, Grandmaster Flash.

So they were also playing hip-hop shows. And I love that Lear Cohen detail, because I found that this week, too, and it was like, one, I had no idea that Lear Cohen had that club and booked it. And two, I had no idea, Fishbone was a favorite of his when they were starting, and that he put him on as the opening act

for every hip-hop act that came through. L.A. Which is so cool. It's cool and it makes sense too, right? It's like the whole L.A. Uncle Jams Army vibe. It's just Fishbone seems such a product of that as well as the punk scene as well as everything else coming through L.A. at the time.

Yeah, they were. I mean, I think Angel used to like, you know, dance. And he was kind of part of the Uncle Jams Army scene doing like break dancing. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah. You could put Fishbone on with anybody. and they embraced that. You know, there's this whole theory that like,

when Fishbone started, that they weren't that great at their instruments. They weren't good, but they weren't great. But you play 200 shows in a year. You get great, yeah. You get great, you know? I mean, Norwood's one of, like, the best bass players. Like, if you watch these YouTube videos of their shows,

like, he's incredible. Yeah. And Flea has set it on record. It's an interesting time because there is, like, sort of this, like, interesting contingent of music. starting out of this punk scene that is like punk funk, right? I mean, I don't think Fishbone can be reduced to punk funk, you know, their punk funk plus plus plus plus, you know, ska, like reggae, add everything to the mix.

But like, you know, they have that strain in them and they're playing a lot of shows about hot chli peppers and there's, you know, later like Faith No More and stuff. Like there's some interesting stuff happening that's really influenced by funk. Especially at that beginning stage, it is not simply taking. the sound of punk and playing punk. It is, and it's like what you said earlier, they would take these influences and build on them, not just replace them.

So they have this big band sort of vibe that is very out of the parliament funkadelic world, right? They've got the intensity in their live performances of punk rock. They've got a groove to their music like funk. They've got Angelo, who is this frontman, absurd front man. Like absurdly charismatic and like just...

Charismatic and slightly unhinged appearing, right? Yeah. And really just free, right? I think that is the... Not to get too academic about it, but that is the thing I think that people who see them live and fall in love with them live, what they see on stage and what maybe they can't articulate

and what I just was thinking about all week is what makes their live shows so good is it's the intensity. It is this frenetic intensity, but it is also this freedom. There is a glorious freedom to what they're doing on stage, and it works. Like it sounds great, but it just is such an attractive energy to try to tap into as an audience member. Totally. Let's hear a clip of Party at Ground Zero because it's not available on streaming anymore.

Here is Party at Ground Zero. That song is bonkers. It's bonkers. It starts off like this Carl Stalling cartoon score. Yeah. And then it flips into this like ska party song. And what I loved about that song when I was in junior high is that it's one of the few songs that I could actually dance to.

Because I couldn't dance at all. But like ska songs you could dance to. matter what, all you had to do is just like shuffle your feet. Move your arms, babe. Just skink around. Yeah, it was like that and like Rock Lobster were the two easiest songs to dance to as a 12-year-old. Shout out, B-502s. Yeah.

There's so many things going on in that one song. And nobody is doing that at all at the time. Basically, they get signed by a man named David Kane, who was an A&R at Columbia. it is a really interesting time in popular music. 82, 83, like, you know, 82 has like, the go-goes have a number one hit. And Joan Jett. So, like, some stuff of punk has sort of, like, you know, hit the masses, if you will. But then also pass the Dutchie as a number one hit and come on Eileen.

So there's like some, you know, English elements of what that kind of stuff is going on. And then also Planet Rock comes out in 1982. And so does the message. Don't push me because I'm close to the edge. Africa Bombata and Grandmaster Flash respectively. So there's just like so much going on. Rock the Casbah comes out in 1983 as like a hit. It's a really interesting, I think, mix of what is popular genre-wise.

And a lot of that, I think some of that you see, right, in Fishbone all in one thing. A lot of that is just L.A. based record companies, right? Like the A&R guys in L.A. are basically the one. They're mostly men and they're all out in the clubs and they're seeing the go-goes and they're seeing the fans. Right? And they're like, okay, maybe we can sign them and make something. So you see the sort of natural extension of why someone would want to sign Fischbo in that environment. Yeah. It felt like at that time there was a bit of like a bonanza of signing happening. I don't really know what prompted it, except that like this is a.

like kind of a peak time of record sales in general. Like, you know, the 80s were big. People are buying albums, you know, which were into people have vinyl. It's like the radio's big. In the documentary, I was struck by, and not that I was surprised by, but I was just struck by, like, David Cain saying, like, he, you know, took this to his boss, and his boss was like, well, you have to take that over to the black music department. First of all, there was just like a literal black music department, which, you know, at the time

was like Lionel Richie and the Pointer Sisters and Al Jaro. And like, they were like, well, we don't know what to do with what do you? Like, this is not for us. Like, what are you talking about? So I go over to the black music department. He comes in and he's holding the cassette like he picked a piece of dog shit above the sidewalk. He hands it to me. He goes, this sounds like rock music.

They're already up against that. You know, like they're not getting put out the way that a red hot chili peppers, for example, would be put out because they're black. It's hard to explain to somebody who knows. the record industry today. Yeah. Even though there are vestiges of this that still exist today. Of course, yeah.

But, like, there was a literal black radio department because there's literal black radio, right? And the idea is that if you are black, it doesn't matter what you sound like. You have to conform to what this sound is on black radio. Because the thought process is that only black people will like your music, right? Like, that's the thought, yeah. That's the thought, right? Which is, like, we have to market you to black people because only black people like black made music. which is so crazy that it was so institutional that way.

Institutional on both ends, right? Not only at the record company, but also at radio. Totally. And listeners, you know, if you're a listener and you like eclectic music, there's no home for you. Yeah, totally. A time. It is interesting, though, when you compare them to the red hot chili peppers,

which I think is actually something that you probably have planned to do already. Oh, yeah. But it is, it's interesting that someone like George Clinton produces the Red Hot Chili Peppers second album. Yeah. And I feel like I kept thinking to myself the other day is like, what would have happened had he produced Fishbone? Totally. Like what would that have looked like if they had that opportunity? Mm-hmm.

Totally. I think the parallels are very interesting. And again, we'll keep making them. but like they both also started out and Fishbone continued and Red Hot Chilis, I guess, continued to, but like as primarily like the value was the live show, right? Like kind of like you pointed out, right? The best part of both these bands was like, you have to see them live. It's crazy.

Seeing them play like they played before us and being like, whoa, these guys are on it. And I remember thinking like, God, how are we going to follow this? Arguably about Hodgiel peppers did not have a song, you know, like for a long time. and their first song that even like was sticky was a cover of higher ground. I would say one thing with Fishbone is they never had a song, you know, like, and they did. Some not said they don't have good songs, but like they never had under the bridge. And that's like, I think one point, and we're getting our head up ourselves, but like that breaks you past a certain level. And Fishbone just never had that.

And it probably has to do with producers and it probably has to do with opportunities, you know. But they never had that breakthrough song that kind of. kind of flipped them over into, like, being mainstream. I mean, God, they got close, though, right? Like, I felt like, and it's funny to say that, because party at Ground Zero is such an anthemic song. How that wasn't a massive hit is beyond me. But, I mean, again, the world was not ready.

It's two years ahead of its time, three years ahead of its time, maybe. Yeah. But, like, then it's like their second album, they have Mon Pa. which feels like if it wasn't about your parents divorcing, it could have also been a hit potentially. Right. And then later album, they have like Sunless Saturday, which is such a great song in everyday people.

It's like, I think they came really close. Yeah, I would argue those are the closest they came to crossing over, but it just didn't happen. Anyway, back to this first EP before I move on. The band is 19, Fish is 17. It was the case, though, like, again, this is a different record industry, like, where there was still money. So, like, they had a music video, you know, for Party at Ground Zero, which is a really cool music video directed by Henry Selleck, who later famously directed Nightmare Before Christmas. And it's an homage to the Edgar Allen Post story, The Mask of the Red Death.

It's really cool. It's like all these, like, different rooms. They're all decorated in different color. It's like, what an awesome creative for a music. video to be your first music video and they look so fucking cool in it. Like, ugh, that's one thing about Fishbone, like from start to finish, man. They had the best style. There's like, we'll clip it at some point, but there's when Stefani talks like endlessly

about Fishbone and no doubt was hugely influenced by Fishbone. But she directly, she's like, Angela Moore is the most stylish person I've ever seen in my entire life. Yeah, and it's funny because a lot of times he looks like, I mean, I feel like his style is really borrowed directly from like British scoff. Totally. But it also somewhat borders on like a kid trying on his father's clothes. Big suit. There's a weird, like, talking heads-ish vibe.

Totally. David Byrne vibe to his suits. You know, there's also another band happening at the same time, which is similar to Fishbone and Red Hot Chili Peppers, and that's Oingo Boingo. Oh, yeah, totally. And there's something about Oingo Boingo. I almost feel like fishbone feels that I feel like they have more in common with Oingo Boingo than they did with the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Like if you took Red Hot Chili Peppers and Oingo Boingo, put them together and made them black, you're closer to Fishbone.

Yeah, because here's the thing. Red Hot Chilber didn't have that ska element. They didn't have that English beat, mellet, you know, like that buoyancy that like Oingo Boingo and Fishbone have. Like that was really not present in Red Hot Chilpeppers. But I hear exactly what you're saying. Party at Ground Zero, the EP, the South Island gets great reviews. Party at Ground Zero is played on alt radio, which at the time was like K Rock and stuff.

The video apparently was on MTV. They have a song on here called Ugly, which was like kind of political. Because another thing, and we haven't gotten into it yet, but like Fishbone gets, I don't want to say flack, but like there's this like idea that Fishbone wasn't political or like not political enough or something, but like that's totally incorrect.

It's incorrect. and I think it's misguided. You would never ask a red hot chili peppers why they're not political, right? It's racist. No, it's racist.

It's like literally being like, oh, well, you're black, you have to be political and it's like, you don't tell Anthony Keats is, he can't be like, dong a ding dang dang and mass, strong.

That was fine, you know. I'm serious. Like, it's not, they weren't put to the same fucking metrics. But anyways, that's why I brought up

ugly, which is like, you know, they're talking about a Mr. Wilson character, which was like funny because it was like a Dennis the Menace type reference, but really it was they were referencing Ronald Wilson Reagan. Again, to contextualize, this is Reagan era.

Like, you know, this is like everybody's political, I think, if you're a leftist band at all. And Kendall, who plays a major part in the story, as we'll get into later, he was a polysy major in high school. I didn't know that there was majors in high school, but that's apparently what he was. and he was very into politics. So, like, that was, they didn't hit you over the head with it,

but it was definitely, it was definitely there. I saw, I don't know if this is in the documentary or another interview that I read, but they had that song on the EP called a V-T-T-L-O-T-F-D-G-F, which stands for voice to the land of the freeze-dried gorilla farts. And Norwood was like, yeah, when I wrote it, you know, it was like, man, I've been hearing about all these Nazi right-wing groups on the news saying the Holocaust was staged.

So what if America said it never dropped two atom bombs on Japan, that it was actually Godzilla popping a couple off? They just had their own brand. They had their own brand of political commentary. It's not like a costume they wore. I think if you're black in L.A. in 1985, there's no escaping the Reagan era. Totally.

And what that means to your life directly and your community directly. Yeah. I was political in that time in grade school. Yeah. You know, like, because it was hard not to be. I was three, so I can't speak to it. You know, also they're teenagers.

Yeah, they're high. They're 19, you know? Like, come on. They, I mean, I think it's fair to say they were sillier earlier and they shipped away from the silliness a little as they get older and more serious about music and, you know. But so what? Silliness was fun. There's another song on that first EP called Modern Industry, which is funny because the thing that tickled me about that song when that EP came out is that they name-checked all these radio stations at the end of the song. And it was brilliant because all the radio stations they name-checked would play Modern Industry to hear their call letters at the end.

and I believe one of the stations is a station KFRC, which is in the Bay Area, and at the time wouldn't have ever played Fishbone. But because they got name-checked in this song, played it. Going back to the question of like why they, when they were signed and what the label is going to do with them, there's two strategies employed by the label. And one is, on that modern industry song is name-checking these radio stations, would hope that they'll play you. But the other is, and I think maybe you're probably planning on getting to it, is this idea that let's put them in the movies.

Yes. Oh, we're definitely going into that. Did I watch tape heads the other night? I sure did. We'll get into it. Amazing. But it's like, but it's such a very innovative strategy, board of desperation, I'm sure, from their label at a time when when they're just like the avenues are so segregated. Totally. And you have to do something in order to get them seen because you have this deep, fundamental belief that I think all Fishbone fans had at the time and probably the band did at the time too, which is if you just show them to people and hear their music, you'll become a fan. If we can just get it in front of people, then our work here is done totally. Yeah. I said this already, but this album or EP gets great reviews. Like Spin writes a great review of it critically was pretty good.

I mean, Robert Criscoe wrote it up in Playboy. Wow. Yeah, I'll read it. deep. I sure did, babe. We always dig around for the Dean's take something, especially when he wrote it in real time, which he did for this. This is his review. Sometimes you can judge a record by its cover, which is why I played Fishbone's 26-minute debut EP, the moment I got it. Six black teenagers from L.A. whose jacket, photo, dress, and deportment suggest postmodern vaudevillans who've just admitted themselves to a mental hospital. They sound like a polka band that doesn't yearn for the old

country, I don't know, and neither do they yet, probably. The basic approach is akin to special style ska. But like most black teenagers, the fishbone teens dig heavy guitar and know their divo and George Clinton. And like some other black teenagers, they think bebop was a great attitude. The EP is full of life, if a little all over the place, worth the chance, I'd say. Wow, he used to be really good. That's spot on.

Wow. Harsh words from Joseph. He used to be so good. We call that a backhanded compliment. was really good back then. You know, and you know, John Perlis, shout out of the god, Don Perlis, come on dance plan, he covered their first New York show for the New York Times.

Wow, really? Yeah. The six Los Angeles teenagers who made up, make up Fishbone, mugged, leaped, woped, giggled, staggered, shouted, and knocked out songs at manic tempos in the band's New York debut, Wednesday at Irving Plaza. Fishbone's raucous songs aimed to fuse anything from Jamaican Scot a jump blues to hardcore punk,

and its lyrics juxtapose black-humored political pronouncements with gleeful profanity. Okay, so their first full length, 1986 is in your face. It's still produced by David Cain, their A&R. We'll get into it. We start to beef with David Cain at some point. Probably maybe around this point, but we don't know.

Joseph, what is a song you want to hear off in your face? Because that is available on streaming. The song I like from that first album is when problems arise. Okay. This is when problems arise. You are listening to a music and talk episode where full songs and talk segments live together in gorgeous harmony only on Spotify. Guess what? You can also create your own music and talk show for free with Anchor, Spotify's podcasting platform.

Get started at anchor.fm slash music and talk. That's anchor.fm slash music and talk. That was when problems arise. Joseph, why did you choose that song? I love it. It is, you know, so as Fishbone is making this, you know, they have this EP, obviously, that they released before. So this is their first album. There's, the people who have seen Fishbone Live are like, oh my God, what is this?

This is the most incredible thing I've ever seen. There's an energy happening on stage. I'm sure the biggest challenge for any label, A&R guy, even for the band itself, is how do we take what's happening on stage? age and put it on record. And I think the underappreciated part of Fishbone in their entire history, especially their early history, is their proficiency as musicians. And to me, this first song is of what makes, like when I first heard this, having already heard Fishbone, and I heard this, it felt like just a next step in their maturation. And it just, to me, it's just a musically good song. It's a groove and it's...

Yeah, that baseline. Yeah, and it's just like... Come on. To me, it's like, oh, this is what they sound like in the studio. I want to ask you actually, how did you first hear Fishbone? Because you mentioned that you were like in middle school. How did you find this band? It was Party Ground Zero. Right.

And it was played out of school dance. Oh, my God. Cool. And it was like, oh, my God, what is this? And I was such a profoundly dorky dude in junior high. And, but I was also the thing. that I was friends with people from different cliques. I was never in a clique, but I was friends with people from different cliques.

It was all my skateboard and surf friends who were up on Fishbone. And that's, one of them was a DJ at the school dance and they played Fishbone's party at Ground Zero. And I just remember, and they played it in full. Because what would happen is, is that in the intro, is they would get, the skater kids would get in a circle

and do a little weird. Like a little mosh, a little pitch. Like not a, but like a pre-mosh. They would walk around, they would walk around in a circle doing some like elephant nose. I don't know. It was weird. Some elephant nose thing in a circle. It was like some sort of ritualistic thing.

And then when the song would kick in, they would like dance. And I remember asking, I'm like, what the fuck is that? And it was fishbow. And it was like, oh, okay. And I remember going to the tape factory and buying the EP on a cassette. That's very cool. You're very cool, let's say. Old, but yes.

Gen expert. You know, I dream. I dream of Gen X. Life for myself. In my next life, I will be born 10 years earlier. We should talk briefly about the cover art of this album because it's so sick. I mean, go ahead and Google it, those of you at home. But it's basically they set it up to be so that there's no, there wasn't supposed to be any front or back, right?

Like, it's each, there's six members and three heads are on each side. And there's no words or anything. Or the words go all the way around. Yeah, all the way around the square or whatever. It was such a genius thing. I think they were thwarted by the UPC code, which was obviously put on the back. But it's a really striking album cover,

which again, like, this is the time, which went through the 90s, is like you would go to the record store and you would buy some shit because it looked cool. That was enough. Like, you don't know who these band is. You don't know what they sound like. That album cover looks.

looks cool, I'll spend $13 on it. Yeah, and that review from Criscao nails it because it's like that EP cover is exactly that. It's like, you look at it and you have no context and you're like, what is this? But it looks like something that can

be cool. Right. I think this album covers a little different, but you see six black dudes on a cover, three on one side, three on the other. And one of them has a mohawk and the other one's covering his eye. And you're just like, okay, this isn't like any other band I've seen before.

Totally. It's not a rap group. It's not a punk band, but it's black punk kids. I don't know. It's just like one of those things that if you saw it, if you're flipping through records in a record store, this stands out. Yeah. This is the time that they start to level up a bit in terms of touring and audience. Because like, producer Dylan had asked in the chat, like, who were their like band best friends and like who they're playing shows with before this.

And like, we kind of touched on it. It was, you know, all the punk bands of L.A. it was Red Hot Chili Peppers, it was Jane's Addiction. It was like, you know, but they start to get, on this album, they go on the tour opening for Beastie Boys on the license to Hill tour. Which is crazy. I never knew that. Yeah.

Isn't that cool? Yeah. This release completes their deal with Columbia, actually, because they were only signed for two releases, which is interesting. What happened? They get re-signed. David Kane, I think, for better, for worse. He was really invested in this band.

He found them. and he produced them and I think he fought for them at the label. Because I don't know that this album performed that well, like, financially. I think the EP did better. But other stuff starts to happen. You brought up movies. They are put in 1987's Back to the Beach,

which is a Frankie and Annette, like, sort of like Redux movie, and they play Jamaican ska on the beach. Other people that appear in this film Dick Dale, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Herbie Hancock, and one O.J. Simpson. So that's their first film, cursed film appearance. It's like, what are you doing? Well, it's following in the footsteps of the famous other L.A. ahead of their time, slightly punk band The Doors.

Right. Who also did that weird beach appearance where like they don't belong. Let me hear your words. Let's swim to the moon. There's a weird thing with that clip, which is visually you're like, what the fuck are you doing? And then, but, but musically, it actually kind of works. Totally. Like there's, there's something to the music of Fishbone that is like, that is sing-songy, right?

And that song is very sing-songy. It kind of works. Again, I might be clouded by my lens of being Californian, but like to me, Fishbone's music is so California. even though all the a lot of the influences they're taking are obviously not, you know,

SCA is not from California but like it's this hybrid that to me feels like of course you hear this on the beach. Right. You know, I don't know. If you watch that clip at home, you'll kind of maybe start

to understand why Kendall Jones starts to feel at this time that they're becoming a bit too cartoony. It's very cartoony. Yeah. And he personally, and he was the lead guitarist, he gets super into metal at this time,

which is a new input. and we will add it to the mix before they start to make Truth and Soul. I want to point out one thing before Truth and Soul comes out in 1988 in September, living color puts out there for a stop vivid on Epic. Yeah.

They're starting to have some contemporaries in the black rock band space signed to majors. You know, like, because prior to this, like, I mean, who else? It seems like they're starting to be maybe a little more confidence. Something's shifting, I think, in the landscape.

This is just me riffing. But like, you know, Fishbone's done at least well enough that a band like Living Color also gets signed. Living Color ends up having the hit that gives probably some buoyancy to Fishbone's career, right? For another go. Let's see if we can, someone in Columbia Records is like,

let's see if we can give them their version of cultural person. Right. Totally. And Living Color, I think, has talked about that they were influenced by Fishbone. I feel like everybody was influenced by Fishbone. Totally. I think that's actually the thing is that and it's, and it will, we can come back to it later, but it's sort of like everyone who saw the sex pistols in England, right? Started a band. And Velvet Underground, right? That's the, yeah. I think that quote is attributed to like three different bands. I don't know which one it actually is, but. But it's the same idea, which is I feel like if you were a kid growing up in L.A. and you saw Fishbone,

there was something where you were like, I want to do that. Right. And then specifically with them, you, all the things that made them great found their way into, you know,

I'm sure no doubt starting is, like they're like, we have to, our show has to be good. Oh yeah. I mean, Gwen Stefani jumping around like a maniac on stage, you have to assume

that was directly influenced by their love of Fishbone and Angelo. When I was a young girl growing up in Anaheim, We were all about this underground scene, this scossing, and like we would go see bands like The Untouchables and Fishbone. Okay, talk to me about Truth and Soul, because it seems like looking back Truth and Soul was like,

at least critically, the peak of Fishbone's musical album. It's interesting because I love Truth and Soul more than I like in your face. Interesting. Why? I just think the musicianship and songwriting come together more on Truth and Soul. in your face feels like they're trying to get the live fishbone on record and there's some hits and misses but mostly I feel like it doesn't work. On Truth and Soul, it feels like the intensity of the band, the songwriting of the band, the musicianship of the band

are more in sync with each other. And I think kicking off that album with the Curtis Mayfield cover, Freddy's Dead, I know this is sacrilege, but to me, that cover is better than the original. You know, there's a sort of fire behind it. And I think Kendall will be getting into metal, right? Like, you hear that in just the volume in which they're playing and the style in which they're playing. But they still are having fun.

Like, first of all, horns shouldn't be cool in a band context, but Fishbonexed horns. Literally ever, honestly. Very cool. Yeah, it definitely works here. This album, by the way, just fun fact, it's name. named after the fictional ad agency in the 1969 film Putney Swope with Robert Downey Senior, which is about this ad agency that where Putney Swope, the only black man on the executive board of an advertising firm is accidentally put in charge.

Putney Swope is the new chairman of this board. Your father was a horse's ass. After the chairman of the board dies, and he, he renames the agency truth and soul. That's amazing. Isn't that cool? So again, with the, they're not political, like, shut the fuck up. This is the album on their, like we said,

they were renegotiated deal with Columbia. Freddy's Dead was the single. First single. The first single, yeah. And the music video became a hit on MTV. Define hit. I guess hit means like it got played on MTV. It was played multiple times on MTV.

I wasn't watching MTV in 1980. because I must once again point out I was six years old. But if MTV deigns to play your video a couple times a day, that's a hit, right? I think so. I think if you're a black band and you get played on MTV, that's a win. Yeah, that's called, that's called a hit. I was really struck by this where Ice Tea, because Ice T is in the Fishbone documentary, and he talks about how this was the crack era in L.A.,

and this is the era where, like, gang banging was, like, really coming on the rise. It was like the height of gangs. And, you know, for me, I remember, like, being in elementary school. You know, all kids have dare. We also had great. Did you have great? Gang resistance, education, and training. And they straight up teach you the history of the Bloods and the Crips.

And yeah, this is like a Southern California thing. That's just to point out how deeply embedded in the culture of Southern California, starting in the like mid to late 80s through the 90s, the gang thing was. I still feel that album in particular has a lot of the same Reagan-era reverberations through it, right? I love this record. I still listen to this record. Subliminal fascism, babe, a banger. Banger.

Bonin in the Boneyard is Party at Ground Zero, Part 2, right? One Day to me is maybe one of my favorite top five fishbone songs of all time. Amman Pah is an incredible, incredible. catchy, poignant song about divorce. And to me, Angela was perfect on that album. And also, Slow Bus Moving is on that record, which has the fly in the buttermilk line that Angelo brings out again, right?

Totally. And it's also the song that Fishbone plays in tapeheads. Cowboy. This ain't never happening in my game. Yes, tape heads. I don't know how they ended up in tapeheads, but I do know that both John Cusack and Tim Robbins, is it Tim Robbins?

Tim Robbins. Are huge Fishbone fans and were at the time, you know? That is how they ended up. That is how they ended up in tape heads. Yeah, I love the fact that, I mean, I don't, I want this to be true, so I'm just going to say it. But like, if you guys know that it's not, don't tell me because I don't want to know. but I read in actually a couple of places that in Say Anything in the iconic scene

where John Cusack is holding the boombox above his head, obviously it's whatever it is in the filming camera. Peter Gabrielia in your eyes or whatever. When they're actually filming, it was a fishbone song. That's what he was playing. It was Party at Ground Zero. So sick. But not because it was a creative choice.

So the story I heard is that Cusack didn't want to do that scene. He didn't think it made sense. Yeah. So Cameron Crow, in order to get Kuzak to do this scenes, as him playing fishbowl. He's like, you can do whatever you want. Yeah. Knowing he's going to swap it out in the edit, right? But what's funny is so tape heads to me is a brilliant movie.

And I encourage anyone listening to this, if you have not seen it yet, you should see it. It's an objectively good and fun film that's so of the time. They also do the music of the movie. Like they basically like score it. But here's the other thing. Slow bus moving is a song about school busing. Yeah. This is, again, not political. That's why I brought up the iced tea thing because he says everything they were singing about at this time was very black. I mean, subliminal fascism is it's literally about, you know, crack and like, I mean, it's a little metaphorical, but like it is political. And George Clinton in this documentary says about fishbone. And I think we're going to start to get to the,

crux of like what happens with Fishbone. He says it's too black for white people and it's too white for black people. Yeah. I mean, that's it. That is the story of Fishbone. And coming from George Clinton, I think that resonates loudly. Yeah. Let's play a song, which do you want to play?

I mean, Freddy's Dead or one day. We can play two. I think we should play two songs. Okay. Let's start with Freddy's Dead. That was Freddy's Dead. a goddamn gorgeous banger of a song. It's so good.

It's so good. I used to listen to that song. I used to have that on tape and used to listen to it in the morning, driving to school. Pump your ass right up. Yeah. It's tackle the day. Perfect. This is the year they tour opening for Red Hot Chili Peppers, who in 88, I believe, were riding high on their higher ground hit.

They also take out School E.D. on tour Fishbone, not Red Hot Chili Peppers during the time, which I found really interesting because School E. had this whole live band, and they toured the entire United States together. They played as his live band, right? No, I think School E.D. brought his own live band. Oh. Yeah. Okay.

I always thought they were School E.D.'s live band. Maybe later. I don't know. Maybe that's the myth. Yeah. This is, I just, this was a quote from Norwood saying, like, we brought School E. out and he had a live band, so it made sense for us to do it together. Here's the other thing.

Before we get to that. So the other thing that they do in Fishbone does in 88 is they do a song with Lil Richard. Yes, yes. It was right here. Rock Island Line. It's the Led Belly song. It's a cover.

So they do a Christmas EP the year before. Yes. We didn't even talk about the Christmas EP. They do. It's a wonderful life. It's a wonderful life by Fishbone is one of my favorite. It's on my eternal Christmas playlist, holiday party playlist. Yeah.

And I think it was like Forge song EP. and there's like a, there's one that's like a really like slow song. There's one that's like a screwed song. But like they're like it's a great EP. And then they do the song with Lil Richard. It totally works as a song. Like Little Richard probably I can't imagine what that studio session was like. Little Richard's probably looking at them like, who the fuck are you?

Yeah. But maybe not. Maybe Little Richard is like, oh, these are my sons. Yeah, I was going to say like you'd have to imagine he's like down. But again, who knows? Yeah. Because I'm sure, and that's, again, the thing I will always come back to with Fishbone is they were the real deal as musicians. Right. No one can say shit to them about like you can't play.

They can play any style and they can play it proficiently and they play it on a dime. One of my favorite, one of my other favorite bands, I'm sure this will be no shock to you given what you know about me now is Mr. Bungle. Sure. And one of the things I loved about Mr. Bungle, which they took directly from Fishbone, was this ability. to play multiple styles, genres of music within one song. Yeah. And just on a dime, be able to change and still make it work. And Fishbone has that in their music.

They do it on this Little Richard song. They do it on Party at Ground Zero. They do it a lot. And I think that is, there's no doubt in my mind that Mr. Bungle, especially when they were playing shows before they ever got signed and released an album, they were just the side project, Mike Patton's side project. I used to see Fishbone and Mr. Bungle at the same, within the same week often in the Bay Area. And there is definitely a sort of thing where you can say, oh, I think the Red Hot Chili Peppers got some of their live show from Fishbone.

I think Mr. Bungle did. I think all those bands that were coming out at the time. If you saw Fishbone, you wanted some of that in your own live show. Yeah. I think what you're talking about is so cool and works so well for a live show. but it doesn't translate well to recording. And actually, and Mr. Bungle also never got really big. I mean, obviously there's a cult fandom around Mr. Bungle.

But, like, there was no... It was their live shows. Yeah, there was no Faith No More style epic song. Because you know what? Epic doesn't do have 42 different styles in it. You know, like... Yeah. It just doesn't translate to a connection with like a mainstream audience when there's too much going on because people can't compute it.

It can't comprehend it. It's like too frenetic. It's too like, you know, knee-jerkie. You know who loves those records, though? You. Other musicians. Other musicians, totally. Right?

Like Fishbone is like, it's your favorite band's favorite band. Right. Totally. Here's something else I'm going to deviate and talk about. Please. This is the era, which I think it really resonated with a lot of people. Yeah. Is the iconography behind Fishbone.

Okay. Go off. King. They have their logo, which is the fish carcass, right? This fish skeleton. It's a literal fish bone, yeah. It's a fish bone. And what's cool is like 85 to 88.

If you saw, first of all, they were selling merch. Yeah. And they're selling this merch with the logo and the band name on it on black t-shirts and on white t-shirts. Can someone say skate culture? I know. But what I'm saying is if you see someone with a fishbone shirt on, automatically you're like, oh, you're cool. Yeah, totally. It was literally the coolest thing.

It was like your eyes lock and you're like game recognized game. Yes. And I'm a freshman in high school in 86 and I am in a photography class. Sorry, sophomore in high school in 87, a photography class being taught by the water polo coach, Mr. French at Washington High School in Fremont, California. And he walked in wearing a fishbone t-shirt. And I immediately thought he was the coolest teacher in the entire school because he had the fishbowl.

I mean, that's sick. It's sick. But it's also, in say anything, John Cusack is wearing the fishbone shirt. It is why that it is just a small detail that he brings to that film. But it's an authenticity that, like, totally. I remember. Yeah. And also there's a fishbone song on the soundtrack, right? Skinkin to the beat. Yeah, there's fish one song on the soundtrack. But it's like the authenticity of that character is made because of the way he dresses, specifically because of the fishbone shirt. Yeah. And also that whole, I mean, John Cusack, I don't know why he's not in that documentary. Probably because he liked Fishbone at a time and everyone keeps asking him about it.

Totally. He probably doesn't want everyone to talk about it. Well, Tim Robbins is. just to make it clear for people who haven't seen it. But it's also, it's just funny to me because John Hughesack does more to proselytize for that band by wearing that shirt and say anything than anybody ever. Even to this day, right,

there's just certain music logos that cut through the noise and become the sort of symbol you look for as a kid to find your tribe. And that fishbone logo was, for me, the first one and probably the second one was Public Enemy's logo and probably around that same time as the Red Hot Chili peppers.

Yeah, I was like, don't forget about the aster. Your boy. My boy. Don't forget about you getting sent home from school for your mother's milk titty shirt. Which I still have. I'll take it off your hands if you don't want it anymore. It doesn't fit me. I'll tell you that.

Gorgeous, I'll look out for it in the mail. Okay, so this album is really good. We already talked about it. It's so cohesive. let's play one more song off of it and then I want to talk about the reception and also some interesting things that happen in music after this.

One day? Yeah, let's hear one day. This is one day. That was one day. Also, like political, right? It's about waiting for change. Yeah, we're waiting in restaurants, we're waiting in cars,

waiting in bathrooms, waiting in bars, totally. It's also a song that is, again, another underrated aspect and sort of the thing that makes fishbone great to some people and probably is why they didn't work to other people is it's a song by by Dirty Waltz. Yeah.

It's not Angelou on vocals. It's not Chris Dowd on vocals. It's Dirty Walt. First of all, trumpet player in a band, right? Hightman slash trumpet player in the band. Which is just, again, here's a band with three lead vocalists. Yeah, well, we didn't tell about this.

Like, they sort of started with everyone singing, But as they got signed, they were sort of produced into Angelo being the lead singer because he was the frontrunner in terms of just like, like we already said, charisma craze,

all this stuff. But I mean, Walt talks about it in that documentary. He was kind of bummed, you know, because he was like, well, I really liked singing too,

you know? Yeah, and Chris too, right? And Chris too, yeah. And we'll probably talk about this when it comes to the next album, but the beautiful tension of the band is the Chris Dowd,

Angela Moore, tension. to me is what made Fishbone great. Chris Dowd, which I didn't realize but you knew this, BFF with one Jeff Buckley, roommates with Jeff Buckley, and there is an entire

Jeff Buckley song written two and four, Chris Dowd. And Jeff Buckley shows up on Chris Dowd's solo album when he leaves Fishbone. This album gets decent reviews. It does, well, I think amongst Fishbone fans,

it's not breaking, you know, out, there's not a hit, you know, none of that. A couple of interesting things start to happen around 1988, 1999. Number one, Tracy Chapman, the queen, she wins best new artists and Fast Car wins a Grammy. Only bringing this up to talk about black people in rock music, right? Tracy Chapman, obviously like a sort of after Joan Armoredituring, is that her name? Armored Trading. who was, you know, preceded Tracy Chapman and the black folk singer.

Tracy Chapman makes it big. She, you know, Fast Car is massive. She wins Grammys. Also in 1990, or 1989, Lenny Kravitz puts out his first album, Let Love Rule. Say what you will about Lenny Kravitz, but he is a black rock musician. Great record.

And then in 1990, the face does an entire story on quote-unquote black rock. they briefly mentioned Fishbone, but something I found really interesting in that article was, did you know Living Color went on tour with Guns and Roses? Yeah. And they had to listen every night

to Axel Rose sing one in a million. Yeah. Yeah, it's rough. But apparently Vernon Reed, the guitarist would like yell from the stage about it. And also just because it's, you know, have to give a shout out to the recently past

when you talk about God, it is Greg Tate who started who had an organization at that time I believe it was started in the even

mid-80s Black Rock Coalition with Vernon Reed right they start the Black Rock Coalition so I think it's starting to happen right

where it's you have black musicians who are breaking through the barriers put up by the industry and by radio And, you know, Fishbone again is, they're in L.A. They're not from New York, so it's happening on a different coast. But they, you know, there's people like Lenny Kravitz.

Like, as you mentioned, Living Color, Tracy Chapman. Like, there's people that are breaking through. I'm sure the reason why Fishbone even got a renewed record deal is that someone at the labels like, this is going to happen for this band. Totally. Right? Like, it's happening. I mean, Lenny Kravitz has a top 40 hit with Mama's head.

had, like, Living Color had a hit. In 1991, prior to the reality of my surroundings coming out in March, Fishbone played Saturday Night Live. Ladies and gentlemen, put your hands together for Fishbone. It seems it was different to play SNL back then than it is now, obviously. I mean, there was just less bands and also whoever was booking SNL was wilder and more fun and booked bands like Fear and, like, you know, like cool stuff. But they played and they did Sunless Saturday, a song that we mentioned that was like one of their, I think, closest

to being a pop hit songs. It's a great performance. I think you can watch it on YouTube. Music video by Spike Lee. By Spike Lee, yes. Reality of my surroundings was produced by Fishbone, but also by Dave Jordan and David Kane. Dave Jordan had produced all the Jane's Addictions albums up to date, which I think is really interesting.

And also Allison Chains and Social Distortion. I find it really interesting they brought him in for this. You know, like he's has obviously at this point 91, like this track record of like, because man in the box was on the first Allison Chain's record facelift and that went platinum. And we all know how those Jane's Addiction albums did.

They did amazing, you know. And Social Distortions album, the self-titled from 1990, that's the one that had story of my life and ball and chain on it. So that was also a huge album. So this guy has like some bona fide rock hits and they bring him into the mix. if you've been working with this band for at that point six years, right?

Maybe even seven, right? They got signed in like 83, 84. Yeah. You're working with this band for seven years. You're starting to see black rock breakthrough with certain other artists. You're like, what can we do to make this work for this band, short of getting them a songwriter? Right.

Which I'm sure they wouldn't have accepted. Which they probably wouldn't have accepted at all. And so you put them with, you know, a producer in the studio who can make this work. What's interesting, though, is that, like, I think reality of my surroundings is probably the best-produced fishbone album. Right. Right.

It sounds incredible sonically. Right. I have to assume that had to do with Dave Jordan being on board. I would have to assume that, right? And I think also what's great about that album is, to me, it's them at their peak. Right. Totally. Everything before that builds up to that album.

I think everything that happens after. is a dissolution. It doesn't ever match that album. This was the album that was supposed to do it. That's the thing, right? And so it's like, when you have the album that's supposed to do it and doesn't, you're let down. You know, the psychology of people is broken. Yeah.

A lot of steps going on. They really thought they were going to make it. You know, they have Spike Lee directing this video for Sunless Saturday. Their second single, for me, Everyday Sunshine, that's a fucking pop jam. Like, I don't understand. It's an incredible song. that didn't break through. Let's actually hear it

and then we'll talk more about the album. This is Everyday Sunshine. That was Everyday Sunshine. I don't think we talked enough about how gorgeous the vocals are on this song. That is because it is a Chris Dowd song.

And again, I think this is the tension in the group, right? Which is Angela with the energy, but Chris is basically a 60s soul child, right? You can almost hear the records that he grew up with.

Totally. He's such a sensitive songwriter. And to me, this song, what makes it so great is it's that sensitive songwriting from Chris Dowd with the sort of proficiency and musicianship of the band in their parliament funkadelic sort of semi-arrested development bag.

I was going to say this like, when I was listening to these both everyday sunshine and sunless Saturday, like it was giving arrested development. But obviously, arrest development was influenced by them, you know, because that was a year later. Yeah, and it's also, but there's something weirdly, there's like, Lenny Kravitz obviously has this 60s influence. Right. It's this weird black 60s psych influence that shows up in Lenny Kravitz.

It shows up in Fishbone in the song. It shows up. There's a sly in the family stone vibe to everyday sunshine, including the title, right, which is basically their version of everyday people. Yeah, totally. You know, it shows up in Arrested Development. It shows up in that band, the great band, and only five people in the world. will know this reference, the Velt from North Carolina, which was described to me once as Fishbone meets Cokto Twins.

Oh, on my way. I was like, yeah, I want that band. But there's something happening in the air that is, and this is pure speculation, but if you're a black rock band and you're taking your influences from the parliament funcadelic pot as well as the Sly and the Family Stone pot, you're bound to,

who tap into a vein of psychedelic rock. Yeah. 60 psychedelia, right? And I think that that shows up in certain pockets with these artists. I also wanted to point out that this is the first album that John Biggham is on, and he joins Fishbone. He joined, I think, on the tour for Truth and Soul, but he was the music director for Miles Davis. Mm-hmm.

Incredible. That's an addition, I think, that also maybe elevates this album. So I have a story about this album. Please. So in 1992, I am at the University of California at Davis. I am. Shout out. Ag.

I'm an Aggie. At that point, in 92, me, my mentor, Jeff Chang, we had formed a record label called Soul Cites that included DJ Shadow, Blackalicious, and lyrics born, and later Lateef. Right. The truth speaker. The truth speaker. And so we had this crew, and it was all centered around. the radio station. The radio station was my life, KDBS 90.3 in Davis, California. And I had a radio show

and Fishbone in September of 92 is playing UC Davis with 24-7 spies. And so I asked the label at the time, I forgot the guy's name, but he was the label rep for them, the college rep. I asked him if I could interview Fishbone on the radio when they were playing that night. So, So he arranged it. Not only did I do the interview, but we had them guest DJ a radio show. Oh, wow. And we did the interview in the show. And it was me, Angelo, Norwood, and Kendall.

I am 20 years old, right? I'm there with one of my favorite bands. Reality of my surroundings had just come out. And I still have the autographed CD that I had them autographed. Oh, my God, that's so cool. And I just, it was like, it was, I was like, it was like, it was. it was heaven. Do you remember anything

that struck you that they played when they were DJ and that you were like, whoa? No, because it was mostly, it was mostly taught, it was like an hour of show, right?

It was like mostly talk and we played a few songs from the album. And what was interesting is after the show, or after the radio show and before their show at Freeborn Hall,

Angelo was asking me about computers. Okay. He held out a book. And it was like this leather, bound book that was like a diary. And it was all his poems that he had been writing in this book while they were on the road. And he was like, I've heard computers can print my book. And I was like,

okay. So I was like, okay. And he's like, do you know how to do that? And I was like, oh, you're talking about like word processing. Right. So. 91, babe. 91. 92. 92, 92. 92. So I take him into the back room of the radio station where we have one Mac. And I take a floppy disk and I put it in. And for an hour, he starts dictating his poems to me. And I am typing them into Word documents and saving them on this disc. And when it's his time to get on stage, like he's like someone came down to come get him. I handed it into the floppy disc. And I said, don't lose this. This is where everything is. thing is, just when you get back home, find a computer that has a disc drive and find someone who knows what they're doing because you obviously don't. And your poems are on here. And those first

poems ends up becoming his first Dr. Mad Vibs poetry book. Wow. Damn, that's so cool. I'm literally in this back room, just me and Angelo, and I'm young enough where none of this stuff has ever happened to me before. And I'm just like, this is the coolest night of my life. Yeah, dude. I mean, what is cooler than that? I have a question kind of regarding soul sides and Fishbone. Like, what was the vibe on Fishbone from like the rest of the people in your collective and the artists and stuff that we just talked about? Probably the only other one that understood them and was a fan of them was Jeff. Okay. Right? I think, again, I think it's that problem that Fishbone has always had with their audience is like

it's not for everybody. Yeah. Well, this is a great time for us to talk about that Damon Wayans stand-up that... Oh, yeah. I was kicking shit now! White people, nothing but white people in here. It was just like, radical, dude, Rodical!

I think it was before this album because this is the album that they end up sampling it on, right? No, they sample it on the next one. Oh, they sample on, on Swim. On Swim on the next album. Yeah, I think it's this tour that Damon Waynes is referencing in his routine. Yeah, and he's talking about Black people don't know what Fishbone is. Is that that Soul Food Restaurant?

He goes on about how black people have an understanding. If I pay $25 for a ticket, you keep your ass on stage. I won't come up there. You don't come down here. That's just the understanding. It's just like really funny. but it's also like he is touching on a

cultural thing right where it's like that's very like rock punk to like stage dive and like again if you guys haven't seen like go on YouTube and watch fishbone shows because this man Angela is hanging from the rafters he is like I don't know wireless mic

technology was apparently popping off back then because he is like up in the balcony with the mic diving back in like it's wild like you said not for everybody The thing about them on stage is it is six, sometimes more, individuals, each doing their own thing, moving at their own energy, and yet it still works in sync with each other. Totally. And I think the biggest visual for me is you've got Chris Dowd on keyboard, but it's a 360 keyboard where it's on a stand that swivels 360.

and he's probably the person that makes playing keyboard look the most dynamic in the history of keyboard. Right, totally. Right. Like he's, he's, somehow he has turned the keyboard into a guitar. Right. It's not just like when they put a girl in a band. They're like, you can play keys. Just be up there. Right. He's spinning around this keyboard is, this thing is moving. I don't know if it was a special mic stand or what, but it was our keyboard stand or what, but it's, it's, he's on, he's like a spinning top. And Angelo is bent at the knees. with his Mohawk touching the stage, bending backwards, and then you've got Dirty Walt, you know, that looks like a bouncer. He's as big as a football player.

And he's playing this short little trumpet, right? It's like the funniest little thing. And everybody is moving at their own energy. And yet it comes out as this very synchronized thing. But again, it's like, it has to be a testament to the fact that these are people who have been playing music together since they were like 13 years old in a room. You know, like that fluency with each other,

that comfort, that like unspoken connection, you know, that's from a decade plus of like since you were a child, since you formed your musical identity, you formed it together. Yeah. And your synapses are all firing at the same in sync with each other, right? And at this point, they've only played music with each other. That's really what's been happening. It's just nonstop.

I want to point out that right before this album, Fishbone got a new manager. And it is Elliot Roberts, who is the manager of Neil Young, one Neil Young and Tracy Chapman. And I bring that up to say back to what we kind of started out, this conversation with being like things in place, but things still not in place. like you had Neil Young's manager and still, you know? Like, it didn't. I mean, I've had a lot of time to think about this, though, and I'm, I'm kind of like, it's like on one hand, they should have been way bigger. And on the other hand, you're like, man, like bands don't even get a chance like this anymore.

Like to be on a major for this many releases, to be on S&L, to have Spikely make your music video. I mean, they had a good run, you know? I think if Fishbone had quit after maybe the next album, do you think people would still think about them in the same terms of like underappreciated? Or do you think they would just sort of be cemented in history as this like band that did their thing for a while? I think, and this is this might be a little controversial, maybe not that controversial. To me, Fishbone doesn't exist after Chim Chim's badass revenge. Right.

Unfortunately, they do. but I hear what you're saying. That to me, when Chris Dowd leaves the band, so really it's after swim, that Fishbone, as we know it and as we're celebrating, and as we've talked about for six hours on this podcast, Fishbone, as we refer to them, ceases to exist as Fishbone after the Swim album.

Right. So in a way, they did cease to exist after that album. We talk about this a lot in the show, and it comes up for a lot of bands. Like musicians and bands are punished for going on. They just are culturally. And whether that's good or bad isn't for me to say. And again, I'll say it a thousand times.

Like you want to make music till you die. That's your fucking right. You earned it. You know, like go ahead. Like you should. I would, I probably would too. We've joked. All bands planned from the grave.

No one listening. But, you know, it is punished by critics. It's punished by fans. like, you know, at a certain point, your capital is spent, if you will. Yeah, I mean, look, I have a lot of strong feelings about this specifically with fishbone. I think that if you are a fishbone and in a just world, you're a fishbone, you've put out four really good records, five good records, right? Yeah.

Albums. You've had some hits. You've had, and you can tour 250 days out of a year. Yeah. and give every single person who pays money for a ticket a great time. That should be able to earn you a living into your 40s and 50s. The industry is not set up that way, unfortunately. No.

For example, who's there, Arian R guy's name? What's his name? David Cain. David Cain has a songwriting credit on every single fishbone song that he ain't art. Totally. Which is extremely, extremely unjust. Yeah. It's also extremely, extremely 80s and 90s.

That doesn't really happen anymore. very 80s and 90s, right? They are probably getting paid pennies. The label is probably spending writing off millions against that band, even though they didn't spend all that money on that band. I think it is, that this is the most shocking thing to me in that documentary about Fisbone, is that they are, A, still going when this thing is shot,

which I think is like 2016-ish. I think so, yeah. They're still going now, babe. They're on tour in December. Oh, I know, I know. But I'm just saying. but like and that Androlo is living at his mom's house because he got evicted from his home. Yeah.

And to me, it is such a indictment of the music industry and that exists that a band like Fishbone with hits, catalog hits, soundtrack placements, and the ability to tour, maybe not in COVID times, but the ability to tour 250 days out of a year, 300 days out of a year, that they can be still living check to check. This is a spoiler alert that word did, but it's okay because you guys have the internet. Also, again, there's something to be said for like, if they had stopped touring and started again,

that would have been a different story too because you know our supreme-ass culture, they love a limited edition, they love a later drop, you know? Like, they love the strokes reunited. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, hold out for a Coachella where you do. Exactly, but like that's not what they did.

Anyways, back to, back to Nintinian, anyone. 1991, yes, you guys were waiting at home. Fucking tequila shot in hand. This is the year the punk broke. This is the year that Nevermind comes out. But it's also the year that blood sugar sex magic comes out. And this is back to our conversation about the sort of following up until 91. I would argue Red Hotchley Peppers is probably still a little bit bigger this whole time, right?

Yeah, probably. Like, marginally. I don't think hugely, but they are bigger. I mean, Higher Ground is on the radio. Mother's Milk is a bigger record than reality of my seren. And then Truth and Soul, yeah. So it's like, they've already diverged a bit, but then come Blood, Bloods Tricker Sex Magic, it's like, bye-bye. Like Red Hotchley Peppers is like catapulted into a whole different class of stardom and fame and money.

But I think part of the mother's milk doing well is what helped the label invest in reality of my surroundings. Because chili peppers, Faith No More has already had their radio hit. So epic, massive. Jane's addiction. Bye. Huge. Radio hit after radio hit. And so, you know, the label's thinking, these are the contemporaries of Fishbone. We're going to get a hit out of Fishbone. It's going to happen. That's the thing, right, is that if you owned a fishbone Bitcoin, right? A fishbone crypto in 1990, sorry, in 1985, right?

Fishbone crypto in 1985, the speculation on whether this ban would break or not is probably pretty high, right? You are going to keep that investment. You're going to throw some more money after it. You're going to, if it's a lottery ticket, you have faith in this ticket will pay off. Yeah. Because all the signs are around you. Yeah.

Right? On every level. And it's like, and every one of those bands that are breaking would probably cite fishbone as an influence. Yeah. It is the tragic story of the American music industry that those bands that are often the most influential are also the most commercially unsuccessful. Unsuccessful, totally. And like, you know, it's, you can't not say it.

Like, it's a racial thing for sure, for sure, for sure, you know. 100%. Within the industry. within the audience all over. And then that's compounded by the fact that those songs, as good as Everyday Sunshine and Sunless Saturday are, they're just missing that like 4% that made a Mr. Windle or a Tennessee or under the bridge.

You know, it's just there's something very small and I can't, you know, name it, it's intangible, it's missing and it doesn't connect. It was really interesting to hear this at the opening minute of the Fishbone documentary, which is absolutely bonkers to watch. I only say that because that documentary is great. It's so good.

It's really great. It's shot so poorly. Well, not everyone, you know, has access to Sony Reds or whatever. The Alexa Mini was not used on this documentary. But it's, but Kendall says this in the opening minutes. the documentary where he says, if we were less democratic of a band, we probably would have had more success. And the idea is that Fishman was a democratic band, that every decision on what songs they did and how they proceeded as a band, musically and as a business, was done by vote.

And that everyone had an equal vote. It wasn't Angela's band. It wasn't Norwood's band. It wasn't Chris's band. It was all of their bands. And I think they probably believe that to be true. they probably believe that, you know, I'm sure a producer has come in there and said, hey, you should put a gospel choir here and you should put, totally, you should get this guitarist here and you should do it like this. And they were probably like, no, we know how to do all that shit ourselves. Let us let Fishbone be Fishbone. Yeah.

But, and I think you're absolutely correct. I think there's probably, Sunless Saturday is a great song. Fight the Youth is a great song. Every Day Sunshine is a great song. Every Day Sunshine, you know, is probably the one. It was the one, yeah, totally. It was the one. And when that doesn't happen, it probably is like the spirit sort of leaves the body a little bit.

Yeah. I can't imagine not being just hugely disappointed, especially watching your old punk club friends just blow up. But you know what? Jane's Addiction, that's Perry Farrell's band. That's not everybody's band, right? You know, red-out chili peppers, I don't know, I'm not part of it. But like, that dynamic is also different. That's Flee in Anthony's band.

And, you know, John is just happy to be there. And also obviously a huge musical, you know, editing and Chad Smith is bribing. But like, you know, it's just like you're saying, it's a different thing. Fishbone is made of six really strong musical personalities who I think all rightfully so believed they brought an equal thing to the table. And they did. Can you imagine if you're their A&R guy, the reality of my surroundings comes out. It doesn't hit like you think it does.

You put, you're like, okay, let's give some more money. One more album. Let's try it. Let's see, it's their last album on the contract. Let's see if we can make this work. Yeah. Their friends will take them on tour. It'll be great.

And they come out with Swim. Yeah. The proper album title is Give a Monkey, Brain, He'll swear. He's the center of the universe. Yes. Right? They come out with that album, which, can you imagine the disappointment on the faces of everyone at the record label?

I know. Before we move on to that album, I want to talk about how, I mean, this album got so much press, truth of our surroundings. Like, they're profiled by Jonathan Gold in the LA Times. Wait, Jonathan Gold wrote about Fishbone? Yeah, Jonathan Gold was a music critic.

Oh, I didn't know that. He was actually a really good music critic for a long time. He wrote about reality of my surroundings? He profiled, it's not even just reality of time. He did a whole LA Times profile on Fishbone in 1991. Yeah. They talk, again, this is like, a through line. They talk about being black and they talk about trying to reach a black audience and

talk about how they worked with the Jungle Brothers on this album. They worked with Q-tip. They work with Chuck D. They, you know, work with Spike Lee. Kendall says, we're making a concerted effort to reach out to black people, but we're not going to sound like Bobby Brown to do it. Wow. Which is, I think, such a great quote, right? He's like, we, and I think that is another thing of Fishbone's like, they were like, we shouldn't have to change to have a black audience. You know, we should just have a audience, but they didn't. And I don't know if this is the show he's talking about, but they did a show in Limerick, Park, which is a historically black neighborhood in the Crenshaw district for Malcolm X's birthday. Again, another like sort of attempt to reach a black audience. But like I remember, and I think

they talked about it in the documentary a little bit, if you remember like when they're like, the black people just showed up and stared at us. Like they were just like what's happening, but then there was like white people moshing or whatever. So anyways, yeah, there's this huge profile, which if you're interested in Fishbone and specifically about this central thing about them, this LA Times profile is great because it is LA focused, you know, and it's talking about them in relation to their own neighborhood and, you know, that constantly was interesting and like striking to me about Fishbone is how authentic they were, right? Like, and that's kind of what that quote reinforces for me is that like they didn't pander.

They didn't change anything about who they were musically. And they were just that weird and interesting. and that's not common. Yeah, up until reality of my surroundings, you see the evolution of them as a band. And I think one of the most frustrating things for them has to be that bands that were opening up for them in like 80s, 89, they are now opening up for, right?

Yeah. And one of my supreme disappointments forever will be why bands like No Doubt and the Red Hot Chili Peppers, I wish they could do something to give Fishbone a shot. Totally. Right? Just like, what can you,

could you cover one of their songs so they can get paid on their publishing? Yeah. I feel like there has to be a way for them to give back to this band. Yeah. And it's likely they tried, you know? Red October took them on tour a bunch.

Later, and this is way ahead, when they do that album where they, like the other kind of like comeback album where everyone is all the games, guest stars are on it. I mean, flees on there, Gwen Stefani's on there, like, they all jump on, you know? Yeah, but there's no

money. They made an album with all their guest friends when there's no money in making albums, right? Yeah, yeah, totally. It's sort of like, what do you want them to do? One other thing around this time is so this is when music festivals are getting really, like American

music festivals are starting to bubble, right? Right. There's a festival, obviously there's Lala Poulouse that happens, right? But in 1999... Which Fishbone plays on. Which Fishbone plays on, but they play the second year, right? Yeah.

But in 1991, there's a festival in San Francisco and in L.A., I think, that I go to and that it was in Golden Gate Park. It's called Gathering of the Tribes. Okay. It's the proto-Lollahalo Cluesa Festival. Right? This lineup is bananas. It is John Wesley Harding. The Mighty Levin drops.

EPMD, Kings X, Primus, and Fishbone. Jesus Christ. Isn't that, it's crazy? I think they do two shows in the Bay Area, one show in L.A.

Or maybe two shows in Bay Area, two shows in L.A. Fishbone is the band that you put on the festival because it's the glue that makes all of that work, right? Totally. And I just want to read one more quote from Kendall. They have a profile in

musician magazine. And he says, we're a band that abandons the philosophy that you can't serve two masters. We feel we can do whatever we want. There's no such thing as white music anyway, unless you count Celtic folk music or pocas or shit like that. To L.O. That's true. Show me the lie. I don't think we should even have to say it, but just for the fucking, for the people on the back row, like, rock music is black music. You know, like, that's the fucking irony, right, of this whole fucking thing from start, from the start is that like rock music is black music. And to be like, oh, black people can't make rock me, like, you know, is being like, but they already did. They made it. That's they invented it.

Yeah. Wild. Wild. David Frick profiles on for Rolling Stone on this album as well. That's a really good profile as well. They're kind of, you get the sense in these interviews that they are defeated. Like, they already know. They already know the album isn't going to, you know, like. No, I disagree. I think reality my surroundings is them going for it on every level. I think, no, I agree, but I think in the aftermath, which is when this press is done, it's like, you could already tell, like, okay, I'll

say this, here's a couple of examples. Like, Norwood is, says to David Frick, it bugs me, man, people think we're some kind of traveling Negro circus, bingo long in his all stars, all entertainment and no mental stimulation. Like, they've basically experienced album after

album of being like misunderstood, mismarketed, miss, you know, and then this album comes out and like, I have to assume they feel the pressure of the label who is like breathing down their necks of like, it's time for you to make it, you know, whatever. And like getting pressured to do stuff. And like, I get the sense from these interviews that like besides the fact that like maybe they don't know they haven't made it yet, they're tired of like just being misunderstood and being treated differently than like we said, like the Red Hot Chubovers and Jane's a

of the world. I mean, it's all speculation, right? Part of me thinks that they really enjoy what they're doing. Sure. Whereas some Jane's addiction shows at that time you didn't know were going to happen because they were so fucked up backstage. Like, you know, Red Hot Chili Peppers were in and out of drug use, you know, around that time. Like, I'm sure they're, like, every band has their problems. I think to some degree, there's probably a sort of pocket of comfort for Fishbone knowing that they're very, very, very comfortable in their identity and who they are and what they do and what they play. I think my, again, pure speculation, the frustration comes from, for any creative endeavor,

you think that if you're authentic and you're true and you're honest about everything, good things will happen. And there's probably a sense from Fishbone that they are, we're doing things our way, we're doing things honestly, you know, we're trying to be true to ourselves. Why isn't that enough? Right. Yeah. It's an existential frustration. It's what I was going to, yeah. And I mean, whomst can relate, honestly. Yeah. This is the closest they flew to the sun.

You know, Entertainment Weekly gives it an A-minus. People magazine. People magazine called this Fishbone's most impressive album. Now something happens in 92. Now that we're on the other side of the other side of Fishbone, right? We've hit the top of the hill. We're about to go down the hill. What happens in 92?

And California people will remember in L.A. people specifically. In April of 1992, the Rodney King verdict is delivered. And the L.A. riots happen. Okay, here we are back again in front of Parker Center here. And this protest is growing. It's not the block long yet. I don't want to exaggerate this. There are about 200 people here.

That's just culturally a huge thing. And it reverberates, I think, through music, through art. I mean, just through everything. Yeah, and I think, you know, again, being black in L.A., how can you not be political being young, black, and living in L.A.? I don't even think, right? It's not even a choice. For people to act like it's a choice is offensive. It's just existing. And I think that. And for anybody really in different ways and to different degrees, right? I think that to anybody who believe, especially non-white folks who believe in justice and a system that works for them, like to be young and to see that reality happen.

And it's just, it was a gut punch for a lot of people. And I think that, again, I think it adds to the existential dread that this band is feeling. Exactly. Okay. So the next album, which I think we sort of mistakenly said is Chim Chim's Badass Revest. The next album is give a monkey a brain and he'll swear he's the center of the universe. The next next one is Chim Chim's Badass Revenge.

Right. So this is May 1993. Okay, I was really interested to come and talk to you about this particular album. There's a lot of songs on this album I really like. And it's because it goes really fucking hard. You know, right? Like, this is the album where they are like, we're going hard.

I love this album. And it's probably my third. most listened to Fishbone album. Okay. Why is that? Because it's, like you said, it goes hard. It's the first Fishbone album where they didn't play in the middle. Yeah, totally.

They played at the extremes. Yeah. And it's fucking good. It's like, they were just like, there's that routine from, what's his name? From the comedy. Damon Wands. Brother got into his shit,

ran and jumped off the stage into the audience. And they caught him. And passed them around like a, joint. And it's funny because he, when he does the routine, he describes Fishbone as a metal band. He's some brothers that play that heavy metal, that man, the stuff you see on MTV and turn from. To that point, they were not.

They were not a metal band, right? It was sort of like, this sort of like ignorance, but it works in the bit as the premise for the joke. And so it's almost like they were like, oh, you think of us as a metal band, we'll show you what a metal band sounds like. Yeah, and I think, you know, I think it was maybe a little bit less reactionary and more like

we talked about earlier, like Kendall had started getting really into like metal and harder music. They purposely chose the producer Terry Date who had produced metal church album, Blessing in Disguise. He had produced three Sound Garden albums, as you know, they fucking go hard.

A Pantera record. This was, you know, a man that trafficked in hard music. Also, the first Screaming Trees album, which is a gorgeous and beautiful album, and the single soundtrack, formative for Young Nossi. Terry Day, shout out. Come on, Mansplaine.

But you said something interesting just now that I wanted to kind of open up a little bit, which is they don't play in the middle. This album is a little bipolar, right? That's the thing about it. It's bipolar, right? Yeah, because it's like, you have like the songs like Swim, which fucking a jam

and like Black Flats. flowers. Drunk schizo. There's these really hard, medley songs. And then you have songs like Lemon Moraine. It's a great song. It's a great song, and it's on the other end of that spectrum, right? Exactly.

They all have abandoned their hopes, which really made me think of what you said about Wingo Boingo, because to me that's like very Danny Elfman core because it's a kind of buoyant nightmare before Christmasy song. Let's play a song, and then we'll go through and kind of talk about this album. We should obviously play swim, right? Sure. Let's hear Swim.

That was Swim. Okay, so you would have wanted to hear Servitude. I think Servitude is a weaker song than Swim. I think it proves the point of the metal more, but it's not as good of a song as Swim. It's a great song. Okay, it's a good song, but it's not as good at Swim. Swim is very strong, in my opinion. You talked about the bipolarness of the record, I think then

we should also play lemon meringue or unyielding conditioning, which is also a phenomenal song. Yeah, let's hear it. And then people, I think they'll have the exact frame of reference where we're talking about. Which one do you want to hear? Unyielding conditioning. This is unyielding conditioning. That was unyielding conditioning. How are those songs on the same album?

What's going on? What's going on here with a fishbone? I mean, that's the thing is like in previous Fishbone albums, sometimes they're mixing styles within the same song, right? And on this album, they sort of split them apart, fission, if you will, and it becomes, you know, the more metal-sounding songs, and then songs like unyielding conditioning and lemon meringue, which are basically, they're technically proficient, they are musically proficient. I think they're incredibly produced songs.

Yeah. But they are on that sort of Scott influenced, Sly and the Family Stone influenced end of the spectrum that is also part of Fishbone's DNA. Yeah. Here's what I've always posited with that album is that some producer came in and said, or someone at the label came in and said, listen, you've tried it this way for a number of years and we're not nailing it. You should try it this way.

And they were probably open to the idea. I think that's probably true. I also have a theory now having gone deep in the fishbone story, given what happens right after this with Kendall Jones. and the dissolution of the nucleus of the band while this was being recorded, which we see them talk about it a bit. And there's actually like footage of it in the documentary.

You know, it feels like there's like warring factions almost within Fishbone. And maybe that had something to do with like how there's like these totally different styles of music happening. And I don't know if that was like intentional. or it's just like a byproduct of what's going on with like when your songwriters are maybe not getting along. Right. That is that is also a good theory because you can see that playing out in the room where it's like, fine, we'll do what you want to do. Yeah, exactly. And then fine, we'll do what I want to do. And it's just like.

Instead of the collaboration from before. Yeah, yeah. That's a good theory. Because right after this album, the wheels fall off. The wheels fall off. Yeah. So Fishbone has gone on the 1999 three Lollah Blues tour like we talked about. but just before that, this shit goes down, you guys.

Okay. Kendall Jones starts to a little bit lose it. From what we gathered from the documentary and what's been sort of pieced together, like he had some personal stuff going on. You know, his mother had passed away. Apparently, again, this is all alleged, was maybe abusing alcohol a little bit

or like was drinking a lot. He had this girlfriend that he was very serious about. He wanted to propose to her. And she basically, again, according to some stories, was like, if you quit drinking, I'll marry you. And he quits drinking. And then I think there's like a pretty telling LA Weekly story where Norwood kind of like is gossiping.

Or maybe not gossiping, but you know. And saying like, oh, she played a dirty trick on him because he got sober. And then, you know, he tried to propose to her. And she said, okay, let's drink to that. and this motherfucker takes a sip of wine and she says, ain't no way I can marry you.

And so he lost it. This is from an LA Weekly piece. I don't know if that's obviously true or not. That's, I'm simply reporting what I read. But long story short, Kendall is like hanging on by a thread. And his father was kind of estranged, right?

His father was not really in the picture and was not in a cult per se, but was like a real, maybe. I mean, it was kind of a religious cult. Depends how you define. called, I don't know, he was definitely kind of an extremely religious man. He had multiple wives. He was kind of living

in a compound, I believe, up north. A commune up in Nevada. Yeah, and he gets, he kind of starts to communicate with Kendall. And I mean, weren't you kind of blown away by the details of how, like, Kendall was, like, talking to him on the phone for, like, 12 hours a day?

And, like, his dad told him, like, you need to, like, purify yourself by not sleeping or eating, apparently. And so he was, like, already kind of mentally hanging by a thread and then no sleep, no food, 12 hour a day conversation. It's like sounds a bit like brainwashing. So when this was actually happening, I had heard a little bit of it coming out in, you know, music gossip circles at the time. Oh, yeah? And the way it was understood was that Kendall joined a cult

and that and then the second part of the story, which we'll get to. So Kendall joined a cult. left the band and joined a cult. The way the documentary frames the story, which is fascinating to me, because I didn't know the whole story, is that when his mother dies, he basically loses his foundation as bedrock. Totally.

And it's incredibly traumatic for him. And so he feels alone, which is ironic, considering he's in this band of brothers, right? Right. Like they had always described themselves as a band of brothers. And because they had been in a band at that point

for almost, what, 15 years? Yeah. again, since they were children. And his need for some sort of familial connection causes him to propose to his girlfriend. Well, first causes his alcoholism, causes his desire to propose to his then girlfriend. And then ultimately, he reaches back out to his father.

And his father in this religious, extreme religious cult, basically starts to brainwash him by taking advantage of his sort of vulnerability at the time and talking him on the phone and having him go through these sort of rituals to cleanse himself. And he, like a lot of people

in those vulnerable positions, succumbs to it. Sure, of course. And goes to join his father's cult in Nevada, California. And that's mind-blowing to me. Isn't it like, it seems like pretty, I think like

you've described all of the circumstances that, you know, you feel the ground beneath you doesn't exist anymore. You're beefing with your brothers. So like, yeah, he has this band of brothers. But A, they failed for all intents and purposes. They came very close to a dream situation that never happened. And that's wildly disappointing, you know? And then everyone's fighting. And 15 years in the same band with anyone, you probably want to fucking murder them. And then this is all swirling around. Again, this is pure speculation. But like,

listening back to the album on those metal songs like that's got to be Kendall right that's got to be like the psyche of Kendall songwriting coming out in this like anger and disillusion and you know

just being lost and probably others in the group too right like I can totally see Norwood you know buying into that you know Norwood who seems to be the sort of spiritual center

of the man right the backbone yeah yeah and yeah and it's it's wild though because I think so you know, we've talked a lot about like Fishbone never quite making it, right? And I imagine that after three shots at it,

I'm sure their label is talking to them differently. Their management is talking to them differently. People are talking to them. They're seeing, you know, the Red Hot Chili Peppers and then no doubt. And groups that used to open up for them making it huge. And I think that's not only the,

it's traumatic. And I think it causes a lot of anxiety. not only because of the business side of it, but because everyone sort of probably understands the sort of racial component to that, right? Oh my God, absolutely. And the other thing about this album, right, give a monkey a brain is, first of all, the title.

Yeah, totally. Let's not forget also this is coming off the tail end of the Rodney King verdict as well. So like this added layer also, you know. Yeah, and those songs are, they are probably fish bones most political songs. And I think really well-crafted politically, right? Right.

It's not like collegiate poetry. It's actually really kind of clever politically. Totally. Yeah, I just can't imagine what it was like for them to, I'm probably recording the album was cathartic to some degree and getting these songs out. I think these songs really are heavy psychically. But I was really attracted to this album

Because it sort of grabbed a hold of me, and I really couldn't stop listening to it once I started the single. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, it's very raw, like very gripping. Well, this story takes a turn. Basically, yes, Kendall leaves. Norwood and the girlfriend, who unfortunately has a name. I cannot remember. And maybe Kendall had two brothers, I think, are like, they go and talk about, they talk to, like,

Cedar Sinai, I think, psych department, because they're, like, very convinced that Kendall's had, like, a mental breakdown. And the psych department apparently advises them, you need to go bring him in,

like, involuntary hold style. Like, he needs help. They called it a something intervention? Adult intervention. Adult intervention, right, yeah. So Anna, that's her name, the ex-girlfriend. So they literally pile in a van, Norwood, the brothers, and Anna,

drive all the way up to, is it Novato, you said? Nevada. And, you know, this is in the documentary, so we're, but they, you know, Kendall, like, is put in a chokehold by Norwood. And they're like basically trying to get him in the car. But something happens where they realize, like, he seems so serene and happy. And he's, I mean, he doesn't want to go.

He's, like, kicking and screaming. And he's like, I'm happy. I'm happy. Like, I'm at peace here. I'm happy. And they see that. And they're like, okay. You know, like, you're right. Well, the brother, the brothers basically, right?

The brothers are the ones that realize how hard he's fighting back and how happy and serene he looked because they were casing the joint, right? They go up there in the band and they're casing the compound. It's an insane story. Yeah. And at some point the brothers just say let him go. Totally. And Norwood acquiesces.

Yeah. And you think that's the crazy part of the story? No, babe, it's not because what does Kendall turn around and do? This man presses charges. And they went to court. Like, it was on, it's a whole. on MTV News. Next Wednesday in Marin County Municipal Court,

Fishbone basis, Norwood Fisher, will be arraigned on felony charges of attempted kidnapping and assault, along with Kendall Jones' brothers, Jones's fiance, and others. Shout out Tabitha Soren. Yeah, exactly. Perry Fair, there's a clip of Perry Farrell talking about it,

I think on MTV News we could play it here. It's really funny. I just think Kendall's going to wake up a morning. They just wake up, like literally just go, yeah. Oh, wow. And they straight up had to go to court and were like,

being prosecuted by the DA, like up to 11 years. For kidnapping. For kidnapping. For kidnapping. And that to me like blew my mind. Like the idea of like, yes,

okay, fine. Was it a little insane to get in the van and come and try to take someone by force to, sure. But like, they didn't even do anything and let him go. And like,

I mean, I was really struck by Norwood being like, this man, Kendall. sat in the court every day, look me in my eye, and was like, yes, they should go to jail.

It's crazy. It's really, it's heartbreaking to hear that story. And it was just like, it was wild. Because if you were Norwood, what would you do? I probably would have done the same thing.

Oh my God, for sure. My rider died long time friend who like I know so well and I know that he's not this person who's all of a sudden like who never had a relationship with his dad and is now all of a sudden living in a cult with his dad and quit my band. Like I would be like, let me help you.

It is the perfect story to just slam the door shut on that band. Yeah, exactly. But I mean, it doesn't, but yes. It doesn't, but it's like, spiritually. Fishbone as we know it as fans and Fishbone as probably themselves knew it, is that that chapter of the band is done when Kendall leaves the band. So just to wrap that story up, obviously, Norwood and. and them did not go to jail.

Kendall apparently took the stand and I'm just going to paraphrase here. Sounded insane. And the judge was like, yeah, no. Like, this is not a thing. This is dismissed. So they did not go to jail. Obviously, he left the band.

Chris Dowd leaves the band one year later in 94. And he later puts out his own album called Puzzle that has Jeff Buckley on it. also has apparently an anti-fishbone song called Flog Your Dead Horse. Yeah, which is funny because he creates it in the style of fishbone, right? I mean...

It sounds like a fishbone song. So I don't want to breeze over Chris Dowd leaving the band. Of course not, yeah. Because to me, Chris and Angelo are the two fulcrums of the band. Right, right. When Chris leaves the band,

and it's always been that tension that has, I think, made Fishbone so good, right? And we talked about it with the Give a Monkey a Brain album is in previous albums, that tension exists within one song, and on Give a Monkey A Brain, that tension is split amongst different songs. And so I think Chris leaving the band is, again,

Kendall leaving, he's a founding member, but he's not one of the songwriters. Chris is the other primary songwriter in Fishbone, and him leaving, I think, that really shuts the door on the band as we know it. Totally. It's interesting, though, because they, this is, this really is the band of nine lives or like nine a million chances again.

You know, like this, the next album, which they, they get dropped. Their label finally drops them, right? Because they turn in Chim Chim's Badass Revenge and it's now Sony and they're like, no, thank you. Correct me if I'm wrong. But I was under the impression they get dropped before they record the album. No, I'm pretty sure they record. ported it, or at least had demos,

and the reason, or whatever, like the straw that broke the camel's back is, like, they turn this in, and Sony is like, we don't want this. Like, this isn't going to work anymore. That's what I read. So the next album, it doesn't come out until 1996. They get,

it's released by Rowdy Records. My thing about the chances, though, is that one Mr. Dallas Austin comes in to produce it. And that's a huge deal. Because at this point... In 96, 95, 96, that's a huge deal. Like, this man has produced boys to men.

This man has produced TLC. This man has done Madonna's bedtime stories. Gorgeous album. 10 out of 10, no notes. That's so cool that he was a fan and came in and wanted to do this. Like, I didn't know this, right, until I was doing this issue. And I found that, I don't know, really, like, heartening. I was like, that's sick.

It is the fulfillment of a fantasy of theirs. to some extent that they've been chasing for a long time, which is here is a black producer at the top of his game in the hip hop and R&B world. And he is a fishbone fan and he thinks he can make something out of us. I don't know if this occurred to Dallas Austin or not. It probably did because he's a brilliant producer.

Yeah. But he's buying fishbone and not quite getting fishbone, right? It's like buying a box of Cracker Jacks and there's no prize in the box. Right, because Kendall and Chris are gone. Kendall and Chris are gone. So it's not quite fishbone that he's signed up to produce. And actually, when that album came out,

I think they teased it with a song on the fled soundtrack, right? And then the album comes out. And at the time, I actually didn't love that album. Yeah. But in hindsight, having gone back to listen to it in the intervening years and then again for this podcast, Like, it's not a bad album. It's actually pretty good.

It has some bangers. Yeah. But what it doesn't have is that tension that was central to the band, right? And so I feel like it was a great idea and not quite fulfilled on everyone's part. But also, you know, what Dallas Austin does is puts them out on his own label, Rowdy Records, and also takes them out on the road to tour with De Lausole and Goodie. And Goody Mom. Yeah, exactly. And he puts Buster Rhymes on this album. So this is maybe the closest Fishbone got to really actively courting a black audience. Would you agree? Like in that sense.

Like it was, you know, we have Buster Rhymes on here. Dallas Austin's producing it. Let's play a song so people can get a sense of what this sounds like. What song do you want to hear? I think Nutmeg. And I'll explain why on the other side of it. All right. This is Nutmeg. that was Nutmeg Tell me why you chose this song It sounds like what could have been a fishbone song on any previous album When the song starts

In my head it's a Chris Dowd song And it goes in a different direction Than what it actually is It's got that fishbone DNA in it And it's a little heavier It's like a heavier funk sound to it It's called Nutmeg Which is in the fishbone lexicon

Right? It just does It feels like as what a Dallas Austin produced fishbone song should sound like. And it's not bad. It's pretty good. No, it's good.

That's a really enjoyable song. And it's a very long, it's like a long song. It's like a kind of a, I don't know how long it is, but it's a long song. It's like a song. 10 minutes long. It's like a jam, right?

It's the last, it's the last song on the album. 10 minutes long, 10 minutes and 30 seconds. That is a good example. We've lost everyone in the podcast now 10 minutes later, but just kidding. This album, A, visually, it's the one I remember the most for the cover.

It must just be the timing of it, because I was seeing, I was like of age and, you know, in looking at CDs all the time, but I so remember this cover. It's a really striking, like, cartoon cover. Listening to, like, psychologically overcast with Buster Rhymes, which is basically like a punk song, right? But with Busta. What's you going to do when situations get sick and you ain't got a player, big yeah, you got to move quick.

It made me think, and I know this is one of our shared interests, why wasn't Fishbone on the fucking Judgment Night soundtrack? Who the fuck missed that? I know. I know. And that's the thing is like it really,

it is, it goes back to that thing that Norwood said, right? Like people weren't checking for him like that for whatever reason, which is why Dallas Austin producing them makes so much sense. But that, God, you have to do a whole episode on that judgment night sound time. No, I want to. I actually really want to do like a soundtrack show.

But yeah, that's like one of my deepest obsessions. Another important thing, which is like I found so interesting, it's like while at the same time they have, you know, Dallas Austin, they have Busta on here, they're touring with De La Sol and Goody Mob. They also joined the 1996 Warp Tour. Yeah. Which is very cool, very cool. It's cool. And it makes sense, right? It's sort of like, you know, it's funny.

I have a lot of musician friends who, one of the things that really just is. an indictment about the music industry. I have a lot of musician friends who are brilliant musicians, great songwriters, have had moments in their career that have connected with broader audiences. Sure. And they have not been able to eke out a living. Right. It is the most scathing indictment of the music industry, I think, is that you can be a

moderately successful musician and not able to eke out a living. And that was true in the late 90s as much as it is now, if not more so now. But I think, you know, one of the things that fished never figured out, or maybe they did and it just didn't work out for them because there's six members and ultimately less and more. But it's like, you can, Fishbone is a band that never had to write or record another album. Like they didn't really need to. Because they were just touring.

They weren't making money off albums. They really should have just become a touring band, right? It is the jam band model of music survival. Totally. But I think getting on the work tour is smart for a lot of reasons because, one, it gives them access to an audience that is predisposed to like them, right? Because they've always had white audiences. Yeah.

Two, I think it gives them a template to follow forever. They just have to tour all the time. Yeah. And they can earn a living. But I'm sure it's easy to say as someone who doesn't leave their apartment. You know what I mean? Like, it's going to tour for 280 days a year. From what I can tell from the interviews and also from that documentary, they love touring, right? It's just they feel a little that they should be touring at a higher level. Like the cap of the rooms they're playing is too small. You know, for the legacy that they've created, it should, and they're not wrong. There's that idea that like, if you make yourself too available, no one really appreciates you as a commodity, right? And maybe that's the flip side to touring all the time.

and being so accessible is that no one really values going to see a fish bun show as much as they should. No, I mean, again, we've brought it up already in this podcast, what we can bring up again?

Like, what do people lose their minds for bands that existed for three years? And then all of a sudden, like, fucking minor threat played a show tomorrow. Goodbye. $60 million. Do you know what I mean?

Or whatever. Like bands that had like a three-year run, but the misfits, you know? I mean, it worked for them when Danzig came back to the misfits. it was huge, you know, because they didn't have that. Fishbone never went away. So didn't give people a chance to miss them per se.

Not that they should have to, but, you know, they just didn't. No, but I think that's a really interesting point because, like, Chim Chim's badass revenge is where I stopped listening to Fishbone. Sure, yeah. New material. I couldn't tell you what albums they released after that. Well, they don't put out any more, they don't put out another album for four more years. They just tour.

Like they're, like you said, they were. were touring. They toured with Biohazard and Kiosk. Their touring was, they're doing warped tour. They're doing all kinds of touring. They don't have a contract. So, you know, it's not like Dallas Austin kept them on. This album didn't perform well. It didn't get particularly well reviewed. I just wanted to read this as we talked about this Bunby in review. I was very struck by the fact that they toured with Biohazard and Bunby was like, well, did you guys ever have a problem with like the skinheads? Like racist skinheads? And Nord was like, yeah, we personally never had a problem with racist skinheads.

Really the sharp skins, the skinheads against racism, they made up a large portion of our audience at any given time, and it really wasn't a problem. The only time is when we took out biohazard. And the racist skinheads, they liked biohazard. What they didn't know was the drummer was as Jewish as it gets. His father was a rabbi. But it was cool.

He talks about how these racist skinheads would congregate outside of the backstage, and every single member of Biohazard would go outside and they would fight them. Wow. Which is sick. You know? Like, I loved that story. the band doesn't put out another album until 2000. 2000 is the album where they get all their friends to come guest on that.

It's called Fishbone and the Familyhood Next Appearance, present the psychotic friends networks. It is put out by Hollywood Records and produced by Steve Lindsay, who, as far as I could tell before then, had done a bunch of Aaron Neville albums and a Celine Dion album called The Color of My Love. I just want to point out, The year 2000, not a great year to put out a comeback album.

This is, you know, Britney Spears. This is limp biscuit nookie. This is corn's issues. And also Creed and Nickelback. Like, it's not exactly the most receptive time for Fishbone. You know what I mean to, like, have a comeback. I mean, California can also came out that year, but the Red Hardsleyfers are obviously exempt from trends in music.

But everyone's on here. I mean, HR from Bad Brains is on here, Gwen Stefani. Rick James. Rick James, Flea, Frasanti, Chad Smith. But, you know, it doesn't do anything. It's funny. I've heard it was described as Fishbone's most accessible album, right? Right.

Because of those guest stars. But I don't know. There's something about that album that feels too engineered. Yeah, totally. Too scripted. Yeah. It didn't feel like Fishbone at all. for reasons that we talked about already,

but also just it felt like it was like, it felt like a pity album. Yeah, like we talk, yeah, like, let's help them or whatever. Like, let's make it pop off. Should we play one song from here? Do you like any of them? There's the,

everybody's a star sly cover. Yeah, with Gwen. Which is pretty good, um, in theory. Because it just tap into the sly, slyness of the band, right? The vocals on it are really good. Yeah.

But it just, you know, I don't know. There's something about it that just doesn't work. Well, let's hear it so people can judge for themselves. That was Everybody is a Star featuring Miss Gwendolyn Stefani, who at this point, no doubt is massive. Used to open Fishbone to your point. I think Traged Kingdom came out in 95, so they are huge. 2003 Walter Kirby, Dirty Walt, leaves the band.

then there were two. But what's interesting about him leaving the band is that you see it in the documentary and he's got a point. He's like, without Chris, without Kendall, it's the Angelo Moore show. Yeah, totally. And he just can't

fucking stand Angelo Moore at that point being Angelo because Angelo is, you know, doesn't have any natural tension left in the band. Right. And Norwood is sort of an enabler for Angelo in a good and Walt's just like, fuck this.

Yeah, absolutely. And at this point, Angela's like also going through some personal struggles. I think he's gotten divorced. I don't even know if he got married, but he's split up from the mother of his child. This is, I think, around the point that we point out that documentary's moved back in with his mother. So the band's a little on the rocks here.

They restart Fishbone with Rocky George from suicidal tendencies. and Tori Ruffin of the time, although he leaves actually shortly thereafter. And then there's kind of like a revolving cast of people. And then they put out their last album, as far as I can tell to date, which is 2007 years later, they put out still stuck in your throat. David Cain came back to produce this. Right, which is crazy that they would call them up again.

I know, after a lot. But also like kind of like a gorgeous little bow on the story, like a little like, you know, bury the hatchet. This happened with another another band that we did literally. Was it Weezer, producer, Dylan?

I can't remember where they went back to their first. Anyways, doesn't matter. This album is okay. It starts with the Jackass Brigade, which is a song that joins the canon of songs that have donkey singing. You know, like the Kate Bush song?

Yeah. There's a cover of Sublime's Date Rape. Crazy. Kind of weird. It's actually a good cover. I don't know. What do you think about this album? I haven't listened to it.

Great. Why don't we hear that cover of Sublime's Date Rape? This is Date Rape by Fishbone. That was Date Rape Fishbone's version. Sublime, obviously, also a band incredibly indebted to Fishbone. So kind of a sly little cover, a little wink. From the documentary, I'll just say about this album,

seemed like once again they were sort of thwarted by bad luck. There was like distribution issues and stuff around this album. And since then, as far as I can tell, they've just still have been touring. They never stopped touring.

So there's an image in the documentary. I think it's, when was it shot like 2014-15? There's footage in the documentary of this album coming out. So I think it might have been shot over a period of time, right? Yeah.

Because remember, they have that, they have them doing the in-store signing of this album, which is 2007. Yeah, so I think it might have, I think it came out in 2014, and I think maybe they took some time filming it over time. So there's, but there's a moment where they're, they're touring overseas,

and they are, Norwood and Angela are sharing a room. Yes. With two twin beds. Yeah. And they're playing to a crowd in some European city that it's like 25 people. Yeah.

It really is just so sad to me. And it's like, if there's any band in the world I can say if it would be them. Yeah. I don't know how to say this, but I feel like there's something like noble in it, right? It's like they're not going to stop touring and this is what they love and they want to do it

and they keep doing it. And that's just who they are. But I agree. Like, it's sad in the sense that like the world wronged them in a way. Like in a more just world. they would be much bigger and they wouldn't have to play for 25 people or share a room with twin beds

and they would be, you know, maybe on or around the level of a Red Hot Chili Peppers who's like still to this day selling out stadiums. They don't even have to be that big. Right. Like revered and, you know, having to do 25 shows a year

that can pay all their bills. Right? Angelo gets evicted in this talk like Angelo gets evicted from his home in North Hollywood. Yeah. He goes to live back with his mother. Yeah. It's just all these things that you think that a band of this much influence and this many years in the game that have inspired so many other musicians would just be able to survive better. And there is nobility in the fact that they just love to play.

It forms a sort of defiance for Norwood and Angelo, right? Like, defiantly they are going to just keep playing and do what makes them happy without any strategy to it, without any sort of plan. and in place. It's not enough to sustain an adult lifestyle, I guess. We say this a lot on the show, but if, like, if talent was enough, then we'd have a lot more big artists, you know, but... Yeah. I wanted to wrap up the show before we move on to fan voices with this thing that Bundy

said in the interview that he did with them. He says, in the black community, we have this thing. Like, if you accept or embrace certain things, you're, quote, acting white. but y'all was black. You might have not looked like every other black man looked. We sat there and see y'all like they're just like us. They just make different music. And it's a different world we're living in now, too.

They were as afraid of your black faces and rock music as they were with Chuck D and rap music. They didn't want worlds coming together. And y'all were people who were in a position to bridge gaps. I found that very affecting. Yeah, and Bun B backs up his words because him and Pimsy thank Fishbow to the credits of their... their 1996 album, you know, riding dirty.

He said that was Pimp C's doing in that interview. Yeah, which is totally believable. Like Pim C was an incredible music head. And he could listen to anything and find the thing in it that he responded to. And Bun B is one of the smartest people I've ever met my life. One of the most thoughtful, intelligent people I've ever met my life. You know, it's one of those things where Fishbone is in the, tradition of really great black rock bands.

Totally. Right? You've, parliament, funkadelic, sign the family stone. Like, it's just, it is, bad brains. It is, it is like, they are part of that canon. And I want them to have the reverence that those bands have. Absolutely. And I don't know if that will ever come.

And I don't know if that's enough. Is that enough for them? I would have liked for them to happen. Anyways. Well, I mean, the documentary, so the documentary from a technical filmmaking perspective is not not great. But they captured on film some things that nobody

the access that documentary shows is amazing. And the band was so open and forthright and just like not, there was no veneer where they were just, you know, being honest. I mean, they have nothing to lose. Yeah.

All right. Well, you know, there are still diehard fishbone fans. Maybe not enough, but there's diehard ones and we gathered a couple of them. to hear why they love Fishbone, so we're going to hear from them right now.

Fishbone was ubiquitous growing up in Southern California. L.A., like, it seemed like they were part of the punk scene, the rock scene, alternative scoff course, and they seemed to be everywhere. And going to their shows made me feel like I always had a place where I felt like I could relate to the people around me. When I was a kid, maybe 12. 1213 just getting into punk rock and getting into cool music and records and stuff. Genres were very in their lane. There wasn't a lot of genre mixing.

Punk rock bands just played punk. Metal bands just played metal. It blew my mind. At the time I had been in ska bands in New York City, so it totally touched all the spots that I wanted for a band. And I was just amazed. that there was even a band that was being played on the radio that had those kinds of influences. I think I went to Tower Records, and I spent $35 or however much it cost to get a CD on their album, give a monkey a brain.

And I took it home, and it was relevatory. It wasn't just punk. It wasn't just metal. It was all of those things, plus ska, plus funk, plus soul. And the songs were written so beautifully. And it really opened my mind to what music could be. They're unstoppable.

They're magical. They're amazing. They're charismatic. And Angelo is one of the best frontmen of all time. Fishbone are undisputed legends. And I will always look them. Remember, Angelo would do this thing where he would have the crowd, crowd surfing from the stage all the way to the back of the venue.

and then back up. And all the while, singing, not missing a note. And I think as a guy who was in a band, seeing a band doing that and having that kind of a performance blew my mind. They were my Beatles. They showed me what music, songwriting, and creativity could be. And as I got older, I went to go see them live,

and I seen them live about, you know, it has to be a hundred times. To this day, they still bring up to the music. bring me that magic and make me feel that relevatory feeling that I did when I first played Give a Monkey a Brain when I brought it home from Tower Records that day. They were my Beatles. He said that. He said that.

Wow. And he meant it. Wow. Not everyone wants the Beatles. I was just going to say, you know, one of the things that these music services don't do with their algorithms is the big brother or big sister effect. Sure. Right?

When you have a cooler, older brother or. cooler older sister or a babysitter or somebody like that who your mind is following one track with your interests and then you you have like the cooler older sister who gives you the fucking fishbone album yeah and it just sends you down a different path because it just it connects with you and it blows your mind and then you go down this different path totally and and that's the one thing that music algorithms have never been able to replicate and i think fishbone is one of those bands that when you're on a path and you get you hear them for the first time like this like the guy that we just heard, boom, it just ignites something and sends you down this

different road. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I hope this episode helps people find fishbone. Producer Tari has said Bansplan is everyone's older sister. I have an older sister energy. I am an older sister. And I'm cool. And I'm cooler than you guys. So I will happily put you on to things. Just kidding. I'm a huge loser. Joseph, thank you so much for taking the time, come on here and talk at length about fishbone with me. Thank you for having me. This was exhausting. Okay, well, I mean, sorry, this was fun.

I think we need to work on your cardio, maybe, and your fitness, and perhaps we need to incorporate some antioxidants and some smoothies or something. It's not that hard, babe. I do it multiple times a week. Joseph, what song do you want to leave everyone with? What's like one beloved fishbone song?

It doesn't have to be a deep cut. It can be that you want to end up. with. How about It's a Wonderful Life? Okay, great. Come back next week for a new episode of Bansplain and this is, It's a Wonderful Life, gonna have a good time.

If you liked what you heard today, subscribe for more episodes of Bansplaine, only on Spotify. Our guest today was Joseph Patel. Follow him on Twitter at Jazz Beazeezy and watch Summer of Soul now streaming on Hulu. Huge, huge thanks to the Fishbone Megafans we heard on this episode.

Adam Mays, Corey Sclar, and John Matheson. Bandsplain is a Spotify original show. This episode was produced by Producer Dylan, aka Dylan Tupper Rupert, and edited by Nico Paolela, with help from Casey Simonson, Tari Miller, and Shannon Cornett. Executive producers for Bansplaine are Gina Delvac and me, Yossi Salach. Our gorgeous and catchy theme song was composed and performed by Bethany Kossentino and Jennifer Clavin and graciously recorded by Carlos Delagarza in Los Angeles, California.

Special thanks to Philippa Guillermo, Robert Adams, Leah Edwards, David McDonough, Dana Meyerson, Jessica Hopper, and Taco Bell. Come back every Thursday for a new episode of Vansplain, only on Spotify. Here's a thing you need to know about me. I didn't talk to anyone and read books my entire life, and so I have really poor pronunciation of a lot of words because I was like a loner who learned them all from books and never heard them set out loud. Okay?

It's true.