Bandsplain - Gin Blossoms with Bob Mehr

Episode Date: December 9, 2021

Bob Mehr returns to Bandsplain for an in-depth look at oft overlooked stalwarts of the 90s rock charts, Gin Blossoms. Looking at the history before a slew of hit singles brought the band into the realm of grocery store soundtrack ubiquity (Hey Jealousy, Found Out About You, Follow You Down), Bob leads us through their origins in Tempe, Arizona’s fruitful scene of the late 80s and the tragic story of songwriter Doug Hopkins to the admirable longevity of some of their best-crafted rock songs. Content warning: this episode addresses suicide and substance abuse. Follow Bob Mehr on Twitter at @BobMehr and find Trouble Boys: the True Story of the Replacements wherever books are sold. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, everyone, just popping in quickly here to let you guys know that we are taking a month off of releasing episodes so that I can take a nap, have a gorgeous holiday, and we will be back with a new episode of Bandsplaine January 13th. Enjoy the Jen Wossom's episode. What's with this band anyway? I don't get it. Can you please explain? Wait, like, Bansplain? Oh, and welcome to Bansplane. I am your host, Yossi Salick. This is a show where I invite an expert guest on to explain a cult band or iconic artist to me and to you. Today's episode is about the gin blossoms. If you've never heard the gin blossoms, let us drive you around this town and let the cops chase us around. This is what Jib Blossom sounds like. My guest today is Repeat Bansplainer and my sort of cousin, journalist, author and Grammy Award winner, Bob Mayer. Welcome to the show, Bob. Thank you for having me back, Yossi. You're welcome anytime, babe. Your family. Bob, why don't you tell us, first off, just to get

started, I mean, why are you, Mr. Gin Blossoms? Why are you the man to be here to Jin Blossoms as up over here? Well, in the, to the extent that I actually spent a good part of my growing up in Arizona, where the gin blossoms are from and specifically got my first job as a music critic in Phoenix where the gin blossoms hail from, specifically Tempe, the college town suburb. And in fact, I would not have a career,

I mean, to the extent that I do, if not for the gin blossoms, because I... Grammy Award winner, Bob Mayer, to the extent that you do. And New York Times bestseller, if you're going to list credits. If we're going to, you know, go there.

But really, I had no intention of being a journalist or a music journalist anyway, but for the fact that I had as a young man underage in a bar met Doug Hopkins, the sort of chief songwriter and architect of the gin blossoms, and had a sort of encounter with him that sort of had a pretty big impact on my life. And within a year or so, he had died, committed suicide. And it was a sort of tragedy that sort of carries over and overshadows the story of the gin blossoms in a large way. But five years after his death, I wrote a story, the first story I ever wrote, which was really about Doug and his music and all the music he had done sort of leading up to the gin blossoms

and even after. And that's essentially what got me a job and launched my career and sort of put me on the path of gainful employment as a music critic. So everything really I do and everything I've done in a way comes back. to the blossoms and sort of I've been thinking and talking about them and and sort of living with them really all of my adult life. So I guess that's as good enough as any for me to be talking about them here. Yeah, gin blossoms started my career. Pretty good reason. It may end it too after this. Who knows? Listen, we're going to do a good job here because as you know,

I am a massive gin blossom's fan very excited to talk about the canon well and I think like you say this show is about cult acts and also iconic artists and the gin blossoms really fall somewhere in between there I mean certainly commercially they were

and are historically have been you know a successful band there is a kind of cult about them or at least a certainly a cult about Doug and his contributions to the group and I think over time coming up on now the 30th anniversary of the release of New Miserable Experience, their classic album, they are attaining, if not iconic status, a certain kind of status that, you know, I think has

eluded them for much of the last 30 years. So they sort of tick all the bandsplain boxes, I think. I agree. And they take the most important box, which is I want to talk about them. Really the only important one. Okay. Well, you'd agree that everything starts with Doug Hawks. I'd like to go through, as you said that you wrote about in your piece, the many bands of Doug Hopkins that predated Jen Bossoms. Because I do think it's worthy and interesting. I think Jen Bossom is one of those bands, and I don't mean any disrespect saying this, that the most interesting, I think part of their story takes place largely leading up and into. their first album. So I think that's where I want to, you know, start and not skimp over anything. Yeah, I mean, in a funny way, they were, the blossoms, the band itself and their success was

kind of like this 10-year overnight sensation kind of thing. But really it was the progress of Doug Hopkins, who basically was born in Seattle, born in 1960, born in Seattle, raised in Tempe, which is one of the cities that make up the Phoenix Metro. area. And he started in bands basically in the late 70s, along with his best friend, Bill Lean, who would figure in most of his bands, including the gin blossoms. I read that he didn't speak till he was four years old. So, yeah, which is funny because he talked and talked well and was an incredibly intelligent man, one of those guys who, you know, like another person I've written about Paul Westover,

was probably too intelligent for this world and got bored easily. I was going to say another reason that you're a perfect guess. is that many people do draw parallels between the gin blossoms, or at least, very least, Doug Hopkins and Paul Westroberg and the gin blossoms and the replacement. It's interesting in a funny way. It's almost like Doug was a combination of Paul Westerberg and Bob Stinson and one person, sort of.

But yeah, so I mean, they're roughly the same age, too, and same generation. I think they're born just a few months apart. That's not to say, you know, like it's a one-for-one comparison, but certainly came out of the same era and the same kind of world of growing up on classic rock, prog rock, playing different things and sort of finding punk rock, which is what Doug did and along with Bill, through Bill, really, in the late 70s. And their first band was a group called the Moral Majority, which was sort of named in mock tribute of the Jerry Falwell religious organization or moral organization that was, you know,

sort of prevalent at the time at the dawn of Reagan era America. And that was a punk band. Yeah, essentially a punk band. None of that stuff was ever released, although I've heard it. I mean, it was sort of very much in the Sex Pistols vein, dead. Kennedy's vein, you know, kind of suburban guys sort of using punked and their and their sort of inborn cynicism to kind of make fun of the world and straight culture and jock culture and high school culture. You know, there was a song called Jerry Doesn't Like it, which is sort of definitely

about Jerry Falwell and all the things he doesn't like. They had a, they had a song called Eddie's Going Faggot, which was sort of making fun of the jocks who made fun of the gays. Right. And it's funny because they all went to McClintock High School and McClintock was a very jockey high school at that time. But I think, you know, initially he was like a lot of people was still kind of mired in the classic rock, Prague rock world, you know, or maybe not even that, but like pop rocks, the sort of what was on the air and in the radio in the 70s, which was really all of it was available to most people, you know, in the suburbs, quote unquote. But I think, you know, like a lot of people, they found punk rock at that point in the late 70s and sort of really embraced it as a vehicle for

their own ideas and their own expression. And so, yeah, so the moral majority was a shrew. relatively short-lived a year or two and didn't really release any recordings. Bob, can you tell me about what, like, I know you're not, you're a little bit young, but what was going on in the music scene of like Tempe Phoenix, Tucson in this like early 80s? I read about this band, the Jet Zons that was apparently like the big toast of the town at that time. I went and listened to their music as a very like new wave. Yeah, well, it's interesting because Phoenix, when you know, like a lot of cities in the U.S. around the time of punk a new wave. It had its own scene. And, you know, I think because of what the

gin blossoms eventually became and sort of the scene they spawned in Tempe, people think of it as a, you know, real pop rock scene kind of mainstream. In fact, the Phoenix scene at the time was really kind of weird and almost art punk provocateur. I mean, you had bands like killer pussy. You had bands like the feeders who eventually went to L.A. who were like really like crazy provocative bands. And even like the meat puppets to a certain extent sort of came out of that. you know, sort of weird sunscores deserty, Sun City girls. There's a lot of weird stuff in Phoenix, but that was more sort of Phoenix itself. Tempe, again, even though it's not a true suburb, was a little bit, became a little bit more poppy in mainstream. There was a group initially

that was called Billy Clon in the same. That was a group that was kind of the first roots of what would become the sort of tempi scene in the late 70s, early 80s. That band was short-lived because the singer Mike Court died of a heroin overdose. But out of that group came. the Jetsons, who became a really big kind of band in Tempe. Local band with aspirations of being a big mainstream band. I think they were, you know, flirted with maybe sign, but it didn't really happen. But, you know, when you think about the kind of scene that the gin blossoms came out of, and certainly the kind of bands that Doug was at least influenced by in a kind of, as models that were immediate models,

it was Billy Colon the same and really the Jetsons. Right, yeah. I was just very interested in that because I was like, you know, kind of, it makes sense that they were so sort of new wavy sounding, but the Jetsons came up a bunch as like being sort of the like cool band of Tempe that like everyone was like excited to open for. And that kind of carried over it even when the Psalms formed, right? That's the next band. Right, which is the next band that Doug had was a kind of again, you know, he went from this straight sort of punk, joky, tongue and cheek, you know, circle jerksy, dead Kennedy's kind of thing into a more sort of ornate. And again,

as time went on, this is probably 82, 83 now, kind of more pop, British influence. certainly new wave and you know keyboard some sense but really at its core he was always writing pop songs you know even the moral majority stuff is really catchy and very sort of immediate and filled with hooks and i think um with the psalms it became a little bit more ornate a little bit more broad and again these bands that sort of precede the blossoms are kind of like a laboratory for doug's ideas and his approach and eventually sort of stumbles onto the formula um with a later band that kind of came dead set in the middle of the 80s called the Algebra Ranch. And that's really where the gin blossom sound, the Doug Hopkins sound sort of coalesces and comes together.

Let's hear a clip of the Psalms just so we can like sort of start to hear that like blueprint. Which song should we play a clip of? The procession from the Psalms. Okay, great. Let's hear a clip of the procession. I mean, yeah, the 80s, babe. I'm so interested, Well, I'm so interested in like the leap from, you know, like you're saying, like, sort of like joky circle jerksy punk to like this like very poppy pretty music. I'm wondering like, I mean, is that like a classic thing of like, oh, you can kind of play music now and you don't have to play like LOL punk and you can like actually start to construct songs? I also read that Doug had unusually large hands. and was discouraged from learning guitar

because his instructor told him that he would never be good at it and he should actually pick up the bass. Well, which I think he did initially. He had a bass and like a Rick Mbach, 4001, his Bill, his good friend and partner said he looked like Getty Lee, you know, at the time. And yeah, no, he was, he switched over eventually,

you know, and moved Bill to bass. And he said, I don't know how to play guitar, but I'll learn. And so that was the start of the moral majority. And I think, you know, like a lot of people, that first wave of punk, it was really just about attitude and I think Doug realized

pretty quickly that he could write songs and I think once you get past the sort of you know snotty pop punk stuff writing real songs, real chords, real melodies sort of becomes more interesting and more of a challenge so I think that was the progression into what the Psalms did and I think also it was the influence

to a certain extent of the Jetsons who were the big band and they were more new wavy keyboard based and it was the times in the era. Totally. I I read that they opened for REM ones. Yeah, I believe so. They did.

And, you know, that sort of segues into Doug's next band, Algebra Ranch. And I think what happened really is the influence of REM, Peter Buck specifically, that sort of jangley, Rickenbocker sound, was a real big influence on him. But also, I think he, Doug started seeking out the sort of roots and antecedents in Buck's playing style. And I think he went back even to, like, Zaliyanofsky in The Love and Spoonful. I think he idealized that sound. that sort of chiming ringing sound with the kind of warmth,

rubbery kind of thing as the ideal thing. And again, it becomes, you know, it becomes an evolution, you know, for him getting to the blossom sound. And so...

Why wasn't Bill Lean in Algebra Ranch? Because he did get two members of the jet zones, right? Jim Swofford and another guy. Yeah, Jim, I mean, Jim was in, basically Bill and Jim Swofford were in, you know, a lot of those early bands. And actually, Algebra Ranch was the only band that Bill wasn't in.

Initially, there was, I believe, Jim was going to be the singer, but didn't happen. And then they actually, Algebra Ranch was kind of a union of Doug and his thing and Damon Dorn, who had been the bass player in the Jetsons. And so Damon became the singer and bass player. And again, that was like a real short-lived band, but I think it was sort of the crucible from which Doug would pluck the sort of sound of. of the blossoms and what he was doing. Again, it's a kind of combination of his evolving songwriting,

the influence of things like REM, and going back to the Loving Spoonful and Jangle Pop and even, you know, things like Badfinger and the sort of 70s pop that I think was, again, okay to like, you know, in the aftermath of punk. But, you know, some of the really key songs that would become cornerstones of the gin Blossom's stuff were written around the time of Algebra Ranch, 1985 or so.

You know, something like Dream with you, and of course Angels Tonight, which the Blossoms did record. And those were just written at the time, but they weren't performed by Algebra Ranch or cut by Algebra. They were performed, but Algebra Ranch never really went into the studio, like in that way. And so no, I mean, the versions that we have of those songs are the later Jen Blossom's versions.

Yeah. So that band broke up, I read because of Doug's antics and Unserious Manor on stage. I don't know if that's true or not, but that's what I read. And then he started the last bit, the last pre-gen-Bossom's band, the 10 o'clock scholars, and Bill Lean is back in the picture. Back in the band and the band sort of, I think after kicking around two, three different bands in Arizona and in Tempe and not quite clicking, they thought, well, let's make a go of it somewhere else. So they sort of move the band up to Portland, kind of continuing a little bit of what they had started, the algebra ranch.

I think there was a different singer in that band, McKay. Yeah, oh yeah, David McKay, it is because they appear on a TV, a Portland local TV show called Night Zoo, where they perform Angels Tonight and Dream With You, and David McKay is singing, and I believe Doug does a little interview in between, and he kind of makes fun of David. And the guy with the long hair, the old hippie is David. Well, and they're also, like, miming, obviously, to these tracks they recorded in Bill, instead of being plugged in, has a coat hanger and his jack. Also, their hair is, like, insane.

It's like super 80s hair. But, you know, it's funny. It's like they, McKay was such a different singer than Swofford, Jim Swofford, who'd sang in the earlier bands or Richard Flowers, and Richard Flowered sang in the later period of the Psalms or Damon. And I think, you know, he was more rootsy. I think, you know, Doug was, I could be imagining this, but a lot of, as a guy who was a songwriter, but not really a singer,

I think he was very adept at writing for who the singer was. And I think that sort of guided some of his evolution. too in what he was doing. I mean, I think it's funny to be a songwriter, but not a singer, and Doug really wasn't a singer. He might occasionally sing a Jokey Cover song. Was he a bad singer? Is that what you're saying? No, he wasn't, he wasn't bad, but I don't think he was a vocalist in that sense. You know, I mean, you can hear him. There's clips of him kind of singing the Scooby-Doo theme, having fun with stuff, but obviously he was not the vocalist and probably wouldn't have wanted to have been in that kind of spotlight. I mean, he was the

guitar player, even though he was very much in the spotlight and kind of the star of the stage show, just my virtue of his sort of persona on stage and his height and everything. He wasn't a singer. So I think, you know, it's an interesting thing to see his evolution as a songwriter does go hand in hand with who the singers are. And of course, that sort of pays off ultimately when he hooks up with Robin Wilson later in the gin blossoms. Totally. But, but yeah, so they went up to Portland and tried to give it a go in another environment

with a different group of guys or a slightly different group of guys. It didn't happen. But again, Doug's songs were just getting better and better. and I think the tendency was after every band would break up, he would have this incredible sort of creative spurt where there would be more songs and a further sort of refinement of what he was doing. And so by the time they came back early 87, as Bill Lean recalls, you know, the night he got back,

he was hanging out at McKay's house and was flipping through the copy of Kenneth Angers, Hollywood Babylon, too, and saw the famous photo of WC. Fields with the gin blossoms on his nose. And so that was the sort of... Severe case of Rosetia for the... Maybe that don't know what gin blossoms are. It's alcohol or sugar-induced rosacea, but obviously the sugar is from the alcohol.

The booze. The booze, yeah. And so 87 was kind of the sort of lead-up, again, trying to figure out the right combination of parts and people and, again, bringing, you know, Bill into the next band. And, you know, at some point, Jim Swofford was maybe going to be in the gin blossoms too. Again, you know, he's kind of with the same people in different permutations. But ultimately, that Chris Wofford.

December of 87. There's a week, there's an announcement in the alternative weekly, the Phoenix New Times, about Doug Hopkins new band. And it is Bill, Doug, a guy by the name of Jesse Valenzuela, who had been in a group called the Photos as the singer, and then a drummer by the name of Chris McCann and another guitar player by the name of Richard Taylor. And they are... Again, those of you guys counting at home, Doug Hopkins, Aries, Bill Lean, Pisces,

Jesse Valenzuela, Gemini. I do not know what Richard Taylor and Chris McCann were, unfortunately, I'm sorry. They're probably off the sign chart. But so they announced this band, which was, again, Doug had kind of been a big sort of somewhat, you know, a successful local guy. So it was news that he was launching this new band the week of Christmas.

And what's interesting to me is they're posed on the roof of a house very much in sort of tribute to the replacements. And I think there was a sense because by this point, Doug and Bill had seen the replacements play on the Let It Be tour and subsequent to that. And I think there was a sense of he had been, Doug had been doing a lot of sort of formalist pop stuff, you know, that it was,

whether it was the kind of the Psalms or Algebra Ranch or 10 o'clock scholars, there was still a kind of component of organization, traditional kind of band thing, making it. And when I think they sort of saw and interpreted and understood what the replacements were doing, which was you can still be kind of anything you want, anything goes, behave how you want, play how you want. There was a kind of liberation there.

And I think, in a way the blossoms were modeled or self-styled after the replacements. That was, I think, his idea in terms of the stage show, in terms of how they were going to approach this music, even though fundamentally Doug was writing pop songs that were, you know, potentially could be on the radio. But wasn't Paul Westerberg also? Yes, that is fair to say as well. But yeah, so they make his announcement, picture on the roof. First show is at Edsel's Attic, a long defunct venue in Tempe.

The first song they play actually is Lost Horizons, a new Doug song. Weren't they billed as Captain Crunch for this show, or is that wrong? I read that somewhere. I believe that's true. There's some dispute, how serious that name was against sort of residue of a kind of 70s upbringing. But yeah, a Saturday morning cereal type thing. Why was, do you remember like the chokehold that cereal had on the 90s?

I mean, we're not at the 90s yet, but like early 90s, I remember like it was the coolest thing to have like a metal lunchbox that had like some sort of serial reference or serial characters on it. I guess that's like you're saying the residue of growing up with the 70s. I didn't have been born them, but anyways, just a little note for you guys,

pop culture note. But yeah, so that was kind of the start of essentially what would become the gin blossoms. You know, that version, that first version of the group was sort of short-lived. Doug obviously, Bill and Jesse sort of remained And over the course of a few months or a year, there was a sort of switch where Doug had run into this guy, Robin Wilson, who was working at Tower Records in Tempe, a young guy with a really pretty voice, heard him playing at a party, just an acoustic ditty. They were kind of playing together.

And he's one of those, anyway, here's Wonderwall moments. I mean, Wonderwall is not yet, but you know what I mean. It was kind of like that. Proto, anyway, here's Wonderwall. And then, and so he brought him in initially to replace Taylor on guitar. Pretty soon it became clear that Robin was the better singer. So he became the singer. Jesse kind of went to rhythm guitar and vocals.

And then also Chris McCann, the drummer, had to leave. The story was he went off to Haiti to live with his girlfriend. So then Dan Henserly comes in on drums. Eventually, Dan Henserling leaves because he was really more of a guitarist and a singer and wanted to have his own band. Philip Rhodes, a young sort of Navy veteran. He was like 19, right? a 19-year-old Navy veteran. A veteran came in

and hence, and thus is born the classic gin blossoms lineup of Doug Hopkins, Bill Lean, Jesse Valenzuela, Robin Wilson on vocals, Philip Rhodes on drums. Sorry, just real quick, Robin Wilson,

a cancer, Phil Rhodes, a Gemini. Oh, okay. I don't know how you get to have to do a chart after all this to sort of see how this. So a lot going on here, babe. There's two Gemini's, which is two too many,

if you ask me. A very sensitive segment of the band, the Pisces and the cancer, and then the Ares, who is like the bold, you know, sort of impulsive leader. I read that this

version of the gin blossoms, very early version, got very popular, very quickly, locally. Like, they were like a very popular local band that were they were getting kind of like write-ups and like the Tempe Daily News Tribune and like lots of people were coming out to see their shows.

They were playing tons of local shows. Is that true? Yeah. Well, basically, like I say, Doug had been kind of, and Bill had been in these bands. It had been fairly popular. They'd gone away to Portland for a while, kind of came back, not certainly as conquering heroes, but a notable thing, as I say, you know, the announcement of the band forming was a story in and of itself.

And, you know, Tempe at that point, you know, was always a college town, and there was always stuff happening there, but really the kind of scene that would emerge, sort of, that the blossoms helped create or certainly fostered, was really sort of starting to pop at that point. And it became kind of a real hub for live music. were playing to, you know, very thirsty Arizona college students, you know, immediately. And they were playing so much, in fact. And one of the things, again, sort of mirroring the replacements in a strange way is they played a lot of covers. You know, sometimes their sets would devolve into covers completely, you know, everything from, like I say, the theme to the Jeffersons or

Scooby-Doo TV themes, weird, you know, thin Lizzie songs, all that kind of stuff. And eventually, they sort of formed that alter ego. And they would just do the nights of covers. And so they were playing very frequently, very often. And yeah, growing certainly their reputation, but also the reputation and the kind of scene within the city. So it really kind of, you know, in their wake after they got signed, all these other bands would get signed.

And, you know, Tempe would sort of be seen as the next Seattle potentially. What is the Mill Avenue sound? It's funny because of all the bands that sort of came up in, as I say, the Blossoms Wake. None of them really sounded exactly like them. And I think that's probably because Doug was a unique songwriter and had a unique set of influences. I think it was more just everything was so close-knit and sort of incestuous in that sort of environment. It was a small town essentially inside of a big city. Right. It's kind of like how the smell had all those bands, but they didn't sound the same. They had very different sounds, but they were like a community.

Right. And I think just, you know, there was a certain kind of, a certain kind of approach to what you had to do. You were essentially those bands, there were rock clubs like the Sun Club and Edsels and whatever, but mostly they were playing in bars. Bar bands, you say. We just did a hold steady episode. This is the original bar band.

Right, it really was. They were, you know, selling drinks, playing hot, sweaty, Arizona summer nights. People would drink and dance and it was a kind of, it was that environment. There was nothing sort of pretentious about, we're doing a show here, you know, a local band doing this show.

It was kind of very, very, functional and yet there was a lot of creativity and a lot of talent you know it was kind of a cycle there they were big and doing great and so the bands were sort of sensing that and forming you know behind them this quote i read i think it was attributed to chris mccann that he got everyone to quit their jobs because he was like there's a shitty job like 15 minutes away or whatever five miles away i don't remember what the thing was like you know 15 feet away i think yeah 15 feet away that's right i was like if you want another shitty job. It's 15 feet away, so just quit. And I really enjoyed that. It really spoke to me. Funny, within, you know, off, just off of Mill Avenue, within a few hundred feet,

there was an amazing tower records that Robin, the singer from the Jim Blossom's worked at. There was also an incredibly wonderful, independent record store chain in Arizona at time called Zia Records is still there. Brad Singer was a guy who founded that later. He had a record label called Epiphany and was kind of a real catalyst for the scene. But, you know, you have a lot of, had two incredible record stores, basically walking distance from all these bars and clubs on Mill Avenue where all this stuff was happening. And so it was kind of that perfect, you know, combination of factors that goes to make a scene. It feels like I should move to Tempe. We'll put a pin in that right now. I do love EG's. Is EG's still there? Does EGES exist in Tempe?

They'd open once in Phoenix and it closed, but they have recently reopened. But yeah, no, EGES is a Tucson institution for some reason didn't translate. Shout out EG's. EG's. EG's for those. those of you listening that don't know, is a gorgeous independent fast food restaurant that is, I think, most known for their, like, variety of hundreds of flavors of ice drink. What would you call it? Well, they are ice drink. I will correct you. It's not hundreds of flavors.

They have three standing flavors and they have a flavor of the month. Okay. Well, I remember it being hundreds because I have glorified this place in my mind. Currently, it's cherry cider. And we're waiting for sweet tangerine, which is my favorite flavor. But, yeah, no, EG's is actually part of the reason why I was so happy to grow up in Tucson, Arizona. So good. I'm going to road trip just to have the sweet tangent.

Anyways, that's a bit of a diversion. I wanted to ask you a question about this early Tempe Daily News Tribune piece on the gin blossoms titled Epidemic of Gin Blossoms Fever hits Valley. Arizona has a severe case of the gin blossoms. They got a fever and there's only one cure. It's only one cure, and it's hey jealousy. This writer says, their sound has been compared to that of the folk rock band REM,

a comparison that the band despises. We don't sound like REM, argued Doug Hopkins, opinionated outspoken lead guitars for the band, more like the replacements or the smithereens. Other influences that popped up during the interview were Cheap Trick and the Beatles. All pointing the finger toward a sound best described by Doug as simplicity, real, simple, driving, propulsive pop music.

Yes. I think that was before that, you know, Power Pop was quite in vogue as a term. But I think essentially that's what the gin blossoms are and were. Jangle Pop, you know, I think it's funny because so much of what the bands intended to be. And then I think what happened when Robin the singer sort of came in, you know, obviously the voice of the band is such a dominant thing. And I think it sort of changed a little bit, even though it was sort of heading that direction. I think it was kind of the perfect marriage. I think he's a little disingenuous there as far as R.E.M. But, I mean, they didn't sound like R.M.

They weren't as obtuse, let's say, as R.E.M. But it's funny if you listen to when Hey, Jealousy came out, I remember reading something where they said, oh, this just sounds like beginning of losing my religion, you know, that sort of mandolin part or whatever. But actually it was, Hey, Jealousy, the original version was recorded several years before and faster. And it actually really does kind of sound like,

you know, there's a certainly, a, as I say, Buck was certainly an influence of the idea of that Jangley, Rick and Mocker sound and the kind of picky sort of stuff. But I think Doug was a far different kind of guitar player. I also feel like at this time, everyone was compared to R.E.M. Like, this was the time where they were like, oh, are you an indie guitar rock band? You sound like R.m. Yeah, 1989 would sort of be the peak of that, really. And I'm sure it got probably annoying for them. It's funny to me in that, you know, People ask, like, what is the Tempe sound? And I guess it's not a uniform sound.

I mean, the band's like Dead Hot Workshop, completely different than the Jim Blossoms, you know, refreshments. Even the Jetsons and Billy Colon the same, they didn't really sound like the gin blossoms. I think what Doug developed was sort of original, you know, and it was this pocket that sort of was a sweet spot between sort of pop stuff, you know, power pop stuff and rock stuff. But there was also, I think, the thing that's consistent.

in his songwriting and what the Blossom's doing. I think why it connects with a lot of people is it's sort of sad, isn't the right word, but wistful. There's a kind of wistfulness to a lot of that stuff that is really sort of from him and he sort of imbued all the songs with that, certainly the ones he wrote and even some of the ones he sort of co-wrote. Doug's sensibility is so much in those songs and in the DNA of the band, his intelligence, emotional intelligence, his wit, his sort of cynicism,

and also his, you know, his depression and his sadness, which was a sort of major thing in his life and in his being. Yeah, totally. Producer Dylan has made a good point where the wistfulness is sort of often a hallmark of power pop. And I think that's probably to make it palatable, right? It's like no one wants to listen to optimistic power pop. Like it's too much of one note, you know? So that's sort of the balance of people like, I want to get us to a song because I feel like we've talked a lot about

but we do have to talk about a few other things before we can actually get to a real release that is available for us to play a full song. Angels Tonight is available. The Blossoms version, you know, which is on the EP, up and crumbling. That will be the first song we play. I just want to quickly breeze through the fact

that they actually recorded their real first album, the album, Dusted, which is not available for us to listen to. Not in full, right? Or is some of it on... On the New Miserable Experience 10th anniversary, the songs Fireworks and Slave Dealer's Daughter are both from Dusted. They're the Dusted version. So you could sort of represent Dusted with those if you want to.

Oh, why don't we hear one of those? Which one do you like about it? Fireworks, that's a Doug song sung by Jesse. So it's kind of really harkens back to the first incarnation of the band. Okay, amazing. Let's heal fireworks off Dusted, the Dusted sessions here in this, fireworks. You are listening to a music and talk episode where full songs and talk segments

live together in gorgeous harmony only on Spotify. Guess what? You can also create your own music and talk show for free with Anchor, Spotify's podcasting platform. Get started at anchor.fm. slash music and talk. That's

anchor.fm. slash music and talk. That was fireworks. You set off mic, that's not that far from the lemon heads. I was going to point out, I feel like there's an interesting sort of through line or, I don't know,

like string of their DNA that you hear, you can really hear in that song and that you hear a little bit in some of the songs, just a couple of the songs on New Miserable Experience, which is like,

did you have a bit of an affection for country music? Yeah. I think, you know, Doug's probably take on country was a little bit sort of spoofish or mocking, but I think there was a genuine aspect to it too.

I mean, Cheaton is the song at the end of that's a real, straight country song. I think he co-wrote with Jesse. But there is a kind of natural twang to the desert, I think, and maybe more pronounced in the kind of scene in Tucson than it was in Phoenix. But there was a very, actually, you know, before the blossoms really kicked off the Tempe scene, the only scene that was really happening was a kind of Roots Rock scene, you know, bands like Hellfire and some of these groups that were kind of in the midst of the 80s after the punk thing, it sort of died down. There were kind of psychobilly bands and rockabilly bands and roots bands and and you know even

straight country bands, you know, which is pretty common to Phoenix. I mean, Will and Jennings got to start playing in Phoenix and that kind of stuff. Arizona is cowboy country. Cowboy country, the whole state. You can't go in that state and not feel cowboyish yourself. Right. And I think the sort of vistas of the desert and sort of just the landscape also kind of gives you that feeling. But, you know, there's always a little bit of a twang. And I think that's what, you know, another element of You talk about the desert rock or desert sound or even the tempi sound. It's pop music with a little sort of undercarriage of twang and country in there, too. Totally.

So this album, they recorded it in Tucson. I read that they were named, they played like South by Southwest. They were touring a bunch. And then they were named Best Unigned Band in America by CMJ. Does CMJ still exist? The College Music Journal? I think in some iterations. But they don't do the thing every, the New York thing that they did every year.

Not the way they did. And, you know, that was a big, a big, the CMJ, you know, annual in the fall, college music festival or college music journal festival or whatever the conference, I guess it was. That was a big, at the time, particularly in the 80s, big place for major labels to sort of seek out and sign bands. And it was a kind of breakout and would turn out to be a big breakout moment for the Jim Blossoms. You know, they had recorded, they had, they were kind of reached, I think. think a peak, in a sense in Phoenix, you know, when Tempee playing the bars doing what they could, made this record. And then, you know, it came out, but it didn't really do anything.

I don't think they were totally pleased with it. If you listen to it now, it's actually sounds very cool because it's a lot of the same songs that were on their major label debut, played much faster and rougher. And I think, again, it's a really good time capsule of what they sounded like probably in the bars of Tempee around 88, 89. They were kind of after, I think, at this point. Doug and Bill in particular had been in bands 10 years. And so they were looking and hoping that, you know, something was going to happen.

And so come that fall of 89, they do make an appearance at CMJ. I guess it was kind of a conference awards show. And there was a sort of an opportunity, sort of best unsigned band. And they performed. And I think there's actually video of it, which is one of the only really good videos of Doug playing with the band. I believe Penn Gillette introduces them. The featured band Hales still unsigned. So heads up, you jaded suits.

In a kind of funny way. Gordress. And that was really kind of a showcase moment for them. And sort of in fairly short order, they had several labels. I think Polygram was one, A&M, the other that were courting them pretty seriously. And ultimately they signed with A&M. I think it's 1990 that they got signed. Just to point out that this is like pre-Nirvana Nevermind guitar band Gold Rush,

you know, that sort of like so many of the 90s alt rock. bands were signed because of. So this was just purely because they were good and because they won that best unsigned band in America. Their A&R was named Brian Huttenhower. And David Anderly, who was the head of, I think, A&M's A&R and was a key supporter of them. And he had a real history going back and pop music going back to working with the Beach Boys. That's where he got his start.

So, you know, they were in pretty good hands A&M being a small boutique label who had a kind of both a foot in kind of that college indie rock world historically, but also really it had big pop success. So I think it was a good, good fit for them. Yeah, that makes it all sense. I read that Boutique label or not, I was very interested in the fact that like A&M put them with this producer Albi Gluten for their first album, who from what I can tell was most famous for producing the Saturday Night Fever soundtrack and some BGs and Andy Gibbs records. Yeah, I mean, he was a, he was a Beech's guy the Saturday Night thing. And he kind of was weird. he was in that recent Beegee's documentary

and it was a real kind of let's say he looked like he was a member of or could have been a member of the Manson family he kind of had that blondeed out hippie dude look which for producers at the time was a little odd but from what I understand they went to L.A. to work with him

and did some recording wasn't really happening. They convinced the label to let them record their own stuff in Phoenix and that material ended up being coming their first release for an A&M, which is an EP called Up and Crumbling. And that had, you know, Angels Tonight, Kelly Richards and a couple other things that would end up on the album.

And of course, Kelly Richards is a, it was a song about a famous porn star of that era of the late 80s, Kelly Richards. An homage, if you will. An homage, if you will. And interestingly enough, I recently found out that the Blossom's current drummer, Scott Hessel, who's a good guy and, let's say, historically a porn connoisseur, is actually writing the forward to Kelly Richards memoir soon to be published. So, you know, everything comes full circle 30 years later. Honestly, good for him.

And good for her. Can't wait to read it. One thing I want to point out before we play a song is like something that I was kind of struck with as I was like researching. I guess I just never really dug too deep around this. Because I think like the sort of myth of Doug Hopkins grew in prevalence or like

maybe it's always just coming back around to like new people that learn it. It's like sort of always like hovering in the background of when people talk about the gin-bossoms. Like I remember the first time I heard about him was like, did you know? You know, like that kind of thing. And I think maybe what's not like what's kind of unfair about that myth

is that like from the beginning while Doug was like the, I think a primary songwriter and a brilliant talent. Obviously like we'll get through it like how many, you know, classic gin-bossom songs are the ones that he wrote. there's also a lot of, I mean, everyone in that band wrote, not everyone, but like, you know, almost everyone, though. Almost everyone wrote songs, like Allison Road, which is one of my favorite Jen Wassam songs. Robin Olson wrote that song. Mrs. Rita.

Jesse wrote that with Jim Swofford. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because there aren't a lot of, I mean, there's a lot of groups maybe that sort of say they split the writing, but it's within a band. It's interesting to have multiple writers and multiple writing teams. And I think the Blossoms had that. I mean, certainly Doug was the. kind of dominant songwriting figure and architect in a way, but certainly Jesse was, would prove to be a great songwriter. Robin, in a way, he's kind of the Robin Zander.

It's like Robin Zander doesn't write a lot of songs, but when he does, they're blinding pop numbers. And I think that's what, you know, Robin Wilson did too. Even Bill was, you know, early on, a co-writer on a lot of Doug stuff and even into the Blossoms. I mean, I think Angels Tonight and or at least certainly Kelly Richards was was a Bill co-write. So it's rare. There aren't a lot of bands that have that, not just one, key writer, but also multiple writers who wrote really great songs and successful songs,

and then also kind of weird combinations of people working together. So yeah, I mean, Doug tends to, you know, overshadow a lot of it, certainly both what he did and his talent. And obviously his passing, as, you know, Robin put it, he's sort of the ghostly anvil that they carry around. But it's true. And in fact, you know, some of the best stuff around that time never got on the record. and there's stuff like, you know, that Robin wrote like Hardaway,

which is just kind of an irresistible little ditty, you know, a little number. Or Jesse's Christine Irene, you know, I think him and Robin wrote that together, I believe. You know, so those are a couple songs where, you know, you hear them and it's like a really cool, this other side, completely other side of the band, you know, in terms of the songwriting. Totally. Well, why don't we hear Angels Tonight from the Up and Crumbly EP? Because that didn't make it onto a miserable experience.

So I think we should hear it. this is Angels Tonight. That was Angels Tonight. That's an awesome song that probably most people haven't heard. Gorgeous song. Definitely hear the DNA of the new visual experience. Yeah, and like I said, that's a song that kind of predated the blossoms that had been in the repertoire and Doug's repertoire for a while. But I think it really kind of finds its ultimate form there with Robbins lead vocal and Jesse's beautiful harmony.

And it's, you talk about the set of Doug's whistle. and depression and obviously the alcoholism, all these things that kind of were so swirling in his mix of things. I mean, that's such a perfect line. It's like party girls between the sheets. She can't show that much to me. I'd rather drink until I dream, you know, angels tonight, or I'd rather drink until I see angels tonight. You know, there's always this kind of, like I say, alcoholic wistfulness, wishing for something else, but sort of facing the reality of the sort of drinker's dilemma, I think, of, you know, existing in the real world or existing in this kind of beautiful oblivion, you know, so it's, I don't know, they're pop songs, but there's,

when you know the story and know Doug's story in his life, it's that there's kind of additional layers of meaning that come to the fore. Totally. And there's a lot of references to drinking in the songs. Yes, there was. Well, there was a lot of drinking going on on stage and offstage too. So I think that's, you know, funny that I have someone who is, I'm not teetotal, but I have spent the majority of my life writing about people who are really heavy

drinkers. Or I saw maybe like a video where Robin was saying like back pre, you know, this time they were like, they would order like 50 shots to the stage and like drink them all and, you know, they don't name your bandion blossoms for nothing.

I want to talk about it more, maybe when we get into new visual experience, but now is a good time too. It's really interesting to me the idea that someone would write such personal songs and be totally okay with someone else singing them.

Yeah, I mean, that is kind of the interesting thing. You don't really, usually, when you have that sort of really autobiographical or introspective kind of thing, it's you don't usually hand those songs off to somebody else, but, you know, not everyone has the pipes. And certainly Robin, like I say, Robin gets a lot of stick and maybe gets a lot of, you know,

in the kind of the Doug story and how things sort of went bad eventually. And also just because Robin's a real chirpy peppy guy and isn't like an edgy, dangerous rock and roller. He's, for all intents and purposes, kind of like a comic book nerd. You know, he loves his comic books and his fantasy stuff and video games. And, you know, he's even made an album of like, you know, kind of, had a cartoon that he was going to do. So like he's not in a funny way. He was like this complete counter to Doug

who was like a walking, talking, you know, sort of rock and roll Keith Richards sort of character. And so I think, but I think that contrast in a way of Doug writing these sort of, you know, really heavily lived in painful, kind of dark, cynical, romantic, you know, philosophical songs. And then being sung by Robin, he realized, you know, that's a, that's a,

that's a hit voice. That's a hit-making voice that Robin had. And I think that's why very quickly when Robin came in, Jesse, was willing to kind of go to the side because I think they all saw the potential in Robin as a singer and as an instrument, another instrument for Doug to sort of play and play with and as the medium by which he sort of expressed his songs through. Totally. And I really can't imagine those songs sung by anyone besides Robin. Like it works so perfectly and it's just like what it is. I can't remember where I read this. It might have been in the piece in the Detroit Metro Times by Brian Smith,

who was like one of Doug's best friends that came out later after he passed away. But he said something to the effect of like how Doug just could, he, I just had these visions for songs and all of the parts. Like kind of what you're saying. Like the vocals of Robin were something else for him to play with because it helped him like achieve his vision

of what he wanted his song to sound like. Yeah, I think he had a, like, a lot of great, really great songwriters and also people who made great records because I think he, even though he didn't have as obviously live long enough to and have the opportunity to make a lot of records, I think he saw the big picture. It was, you know, some people just write songs, but they don't think of them as kind of compositions or as tracks or as, you know, recordings. Whereas I think he had a, he was one of the expression goes, he had the whole equation in his head. He could see it from sort of the melody and the lyrics, but also, how the arrangements would go and how the sort of vocals and the backing parts, you know, he kind of had that big picture view of it. And I think he actually thought that way. You know, and there's always people telling stories about how he'd sort of be tapping on the car, you know, on the windshield of the car or on the dashboard of the car. And sort of almost like sort of you could see him kind of working out the songs, you know, in his head.

Yeah. Very impressive. This EP comes out since they're fully signed to ANM now, they're like doing their thing. they fired in December of 1991 their longtime manager and booking agent Laura Lee went yeah I only bring it up because there was an interview with Doug I think in 1992

in a magazine called What's Hot where he said that was the beginning of the end for us really we were like a family there were six of us and Laura was one the whole atmosphere went from being the most fantastic job in the world to being a grind you know like real depressing that was the saddest thing

day the night we fired her. I only bring that up to kind of like demonstrate that like Doug's disillusionment maybe with being in this band was like kind of already starting around this time. Well, the thing with Doug and the band and his

disillusionment, I think the closer they got to achieving success, to being successful. And there was I think a sense of destiny or inevitability certainly inherent in Doug's songs that these were songs that were going to be big. that they could be a big band.

You know, as they got closer to that, he became more sort of disillusioned, more self-destructive. You know, he'd always had that streak in him, I think. And, you know, there's certainly, I mean, you can get into the psychology of self-loathing, of having sort of lifelong depression, of exacerbating that with alcohol.

But I think there was a, you know, people, and Lord knows I know this from sort of writing about the replacements, too, is there is a kind of self-sabotage that, you know, comes from a place of insecurity of not wanting to be judged or not wanting to be put your best foot forward. I think in Doug's case maybe differently than Paul Westberg, I think he knew that this, that he was going to be on the cover of Rolling Stone and probably was uncomfortable and scared by that and not really comfortable in his own skin, you know, to a certain extent. And so I think, you know, as they got signed, as they got popular, as they

got signed as they got, you know, closer to making the, the record or, you know, to being something, you know, I think Robin even said is, you know, it kind of was step, lockstep with the band's growth and the band's sort of heading towards the success that he became more sort of dissolution and more difficult, ultimately sort of resulting at the point that things really came to a crossroads. Yeah, as things got realer and realer and also, and also just change, you know, it's one thing to spend 10 years being the, like, in the, like, top. of the Tempe scene and like, you know, no, and I don't say that dismissively. Like, it's, it's, that's like its own good life that's like one life, you know, and, and as things start

to like really rapidly change, which is like, tale is old as time, that's, you know, signed to a major and it's like overnight your whole life changes in many big ways and small. Like, I can see how that started to feel very uncomfortable or weird and it's sometimes more comfortable to be a big fish in a small pond and, you know, the other thing. I think, you know, in a weird way, Doug was kind of a personality-wise, it was a combination of Paul and Westberg and Bob Stinson. I think Bob Stinson had that too. You know, as the band became bigger and became owned by more people and was going out into the world, he wanted to stay home more. I think Doug had a little bit of that too, you know,

where it was, and I don't know what exactly that was the fear of success or the fear of failure. I think it was, in Westbrook's case, it might have been the fear of failure. I think in Doug's case, it really was a fear of success because I think there was, those songs were were pretty undeniable, particularly once they got to the point where they were recording the album and working with a real producer and a great producer. I think it became more and more clear that like, and this thing's going to, this thing's going to be big. And then, you know, with that comes a lot of pressure, particularly if you're the chief songwriter and the architect and all that stuff. And I think, you know, that was, that was where a lot of the problems sort of began or started to

kind of really become untenable in terms of being in the band. And the intersection of that with like alcohol abuse is like, you know, the recipe for disaster. My story is old as time, unfortunately. I was old as time, as we like to say on this show. You mentioned, so they did start to record New Miserables Experience at Arden Studios, Memphis, Tennessee, Big Star Central, if you will,

with producer John Hampton, who had engineered the replacements album, please to meet me. Also recorded Arden Studios. Well, yeah, you know, Arden at that time was a, real happening place, you know, a lot of major label projects coming through there. I think, you know, again, after the galutin sessions and after trying to do stuff on their own, they, you know, like a lot of bands, major label wasn't going to let them produce themselves. So they needed a producer and the right producer.

I think A&M and their A&R guy, Brian Hutt, now had a relationship with Arden, had a relationship with Hampton, probably through a band called Toro Tora, which was kind of a, you know, Memphis-based hard rock band that was on A&M. You know, a lot of credit for the success of this record, and I think the longevity of this record has to go to Hampton. Hampton was a drummer, a guy who played drums from Memphis and ended up working at Arden, you know, kind of came through the ranks there. And Artin was a really great place for engineers. It was started by John Frye, who, you know, produced and engineered a lot of the big star records. And so it was a real kind of learning lab. You learned the fundamental things.

And so from John Fry, Hampton really learned the technical side, but also the first people he was working with was Jim Dickinson, you know, who produced a replacement in Alex Chilton. And I think the first session Hampton did was like a was working with the cramps. Wow. And Alex Chilton. So, you know, he had, he had that kind of experience. He knew how to handle things. But he had done by the, by this point in early 90s, he was, you know, he's produced some

things, but was doing a lot of engineering for, for, for, for, for Dickinson was producing stuff with Joe Hardy. He was another engineer there. And he got the call to do this project and wanted, you know, they wanted to see if you wanted to take it on. And I think originally maybe he was going to do it with with, with Joe Hardy, because they had done a record for Tommy Kean, who was signed to Geffen,

who was a favorite of the Jim Blossoms, and they would end up touring together and working together. But I think the Tommy Kean record and having them already having worked on the replacement, or rather Hampton having worked on the replacements, that kind of was the lure and also the relationship with A&M. So they went out to Arden to Memphis. Like a lot of things, I think when you have a kind of classic record,

which is what I think, Memeasurable experience is it has a lot to do with the producer and the engineers and who's, you know, handling it because there's a lot of great songs that sort of get lost in that process, particularly in that time in that era. It was a kind of producer's era and a label era. And our guys had, you know, and producers had all the power. Less so with the bands now. Everybody has their own studio and that kind of thing. So I think with Hampton, they found the right mix. And he was a kind of easygoing guy and could get the right sound.

So it turned out to be on, at least on paper, a good thing. obviously things went south fairly quickly in the studio with Doug, which is the sort of famous or infamous sort of point in the story. Yeah, it's, I mean, now that you're saying the thing about like maybe, you know, similar to Bobston's and wanted to stay home, it is sort of like meaningful that like as they're shipped off to away from home, things devolve very quickly for Doug. Apparently, I mean, just it's plain, plain speaking. he was just drinking really crazily

during the recording and basically like couldn't get it together. I think he recorded, you know, it's funny thing, it's like that was his thing. He was a pretty functional as an alcoholic. I think there was, he recorded a lot of his tracks and a lot of solos or him. He got the work done, but obviously his, his longevity

and his like sort of presence was becoming disruptive, you know, because of the drinking. Yeah, I think Hampton said, like, so he did, he recorded most of his guitar while they were tracking drums, but he couldn't re-record anything. And apparently, you know, they basically, like you said, like he was becoming disruptive and bumming the rest of the band out and it was like kind of dark. So they sent him home.

Hampton said that Jesse really stepped up when he left. And, you know, there's parts on the album where there's like nine Jesse's playing guitar and three Jesse's singing because he had to sort of double and triple and things like fill in the holes. Yeah, I mean, that's true. But I do think like a lot of the, you know, certainly the, the solos and things are Doug and that sound is Doug. But yeah, I mean, it was kind of that thing of like... Right, he's playing on the album.

Yeah, quite a time, though, to, you know, sort of abdicate your leadership, you know, of the band, essentially. And I think, you know, it wasn't that, you know, certainly having worked with the cramps and Alice Chilton and the replacements. It wasn't like Hampton was, like, thrown by this. I think a lot of producers would have just been completely freaked out and it would have halted the sessions, but they kind of powered through because Hampton was so adept at sort of handling that stuff.

But eventually I basically had to put Doug on a plane. and send him back home. And as the story goes, he, like, came back and sort of snapped out of his thing and was, like, listening to the demos or the tape or the mixes and was, like, making notes and stuff. But by that point, you know, I think the label was saying, you know, this is a pretty untenable situation. And it clearly from to the outside, people on the outside, had been seeming to become untenable for quite a while.

And obviously things came to a head in Memphis. I mean, we weren't there, but, I mean, Hampton did say, have you ever seen? seen the movie leaving Las Vegas. It's like that, which is, that's, it's a picture. The part that's hard to reconcile is, you know, Doug had worked so hard for so long to get to this point. And at the point that, you know, you're in this world-class studio with this really great engineer producer and you've got these songs and the label behind you, and this is the

moment to kind of shine. This is, you know, what you've spent all those 10 years before laboring for. And I, you know, I mean, it's obviously. not coincidental that that's where things sort of collapsed and in such a sort of spectacular and, you know, tragic way, unfortunately. Yeah, it's, you know, I was like meditating a lot on this as I was, you know, reprocessing the story and stuff because they do, you know, I think sort of at the behest of the label,

though Hutton Howard denies this to this day, but the rest of the band members are sort of like, no, it was really like the straw that pushed us over was the label encouraging us to kick Doug out. It's very easy for people to just casually, like, villainize the Jin boss and be like, how could they, especially with the timing of Doug's death by suicide. But, you know, I would love to ask those people, like, have you ever known an alcoholic? Have you ever been in a relationship with an alcoholic?

Like, it's not so black and white or so easy to, like, say who's the, you know, who's the the bad guy and who's the good guy in any of those situations. It's extremely complicated. It's extremely emotional. It's very difficult. It's something that I don't think people who weren't part of this situation have any right to judge or can really understand. Well, and again, not to keep coming back to replacements, but they had the same thing, you know, in the middle of with Bob, right. With Bob, where it was like, faced with pretty much the same thing. It was like, it was untenable as it was. There was sort of outside pressure saying, you know, you can't kind of continue like this from the label or management or whatever. And it was like the choice was well,

we either keep going or we break up. You know, we either fire the, you know, Bob or Fire Doug or we break up. And, you know, at that point, you could sort of say, oh, you know, this honorable thing would have been to break up the band. But it's like also these guys had sort of put several years of their lives into this. And they were at a point where, you know, this is the opportunity. The rub, I think, you know, the difference, you know, with Bob is that he wasn't the chief songwriter. And, and. and had written half of the material and the songs that eventually ended up becoming the single. So it's even more complicated, I think, in the gin Blossom's case, as complicated as those situations usually are, this is probably complicated tenfold because of, you know, Doug had started

the band, his best friend Bill was in the band. You know, he had sort of brought everyone in. Totally. He wrote the most enduring gin Blossom song to this day. So it's sort of like, yeah, I mean, it was a bad, impossible situation. and I don't think there would have been any right answers. But, you know, things played out the way it did. And so that's what ultimately, you know, will endure. And was the thing that has sort of connected people with the band is like, as chaotic and tragic as a scenario was in Memphis at Arden,

they ended up making a really great record and a record that, you know, has kind of, I think, endured over the last 30 years. Well, guess what? We're going to hear a little song called Hey, Jealousy. And I don't care what you think at home. This song, to the day I die, I don't care if it's on it every C of ES in America every time I step into it.

I don't care if I hear it 22 times a day. It still slaps. It's still gorgeous. It still moves me. Let's go. This is Hey Jealousy. That was Hey Jealousy, a goddamn gorgeous, beautiful song if I've ever heard one.

You know, as they can listen to that, and I may have mentioned this earlier, you know, Tempe was kind of this small town and very incestuous sort of scene. I think I have this right that that song, Hey, Jealousy, was really kind of about a woman by the name of Kathy Swofford who Doug dated. The sister

of Jim Swofford. Sister of Jim Swofford who was in all these bands with Doug's and wrote Mrs. Rita on New Misdrable, co-wrote Mrs. Rita on New Miserable Experience. And then of course, Kathy Swofford later married the brother of Jim Blossom's drummer Philip Rhodes. So that has that for... Excuse? Excuse?

Sorry, Tempe is truly a village, apparently. It is a village. It's a soap, long as long as running soap opera in the West. I need to point out, I mean, first of all, what a beautiful song. This is like an early indication to me. Doug was a really clever lyricist and a really sharp lyricist. I want to point out a thing, I don't love this. I'll tell you. I'll go on record and say I don't love it. That they changed the lyrics after Doug had, you know, not been, was not in the band anymore, that they changed the lyric that was in originally and you can trust me not to drink and not to sleep around

which makes a lot of sense as he is trying to convince his ex-girlfriend to give him another chance and he has a you know he drinks too much to and you can trust me not to think and not to sleep around um i i saw a video where robin says that he was just really tired of singing about drinking and you know it wasn't his thing anymore by this stage i was so sick of singing about drinking And so I asked him if I could change the lyric from drink to think. But it's better as drink. Can we all agree? The lyric is better as drink.

Let's spend some time together and spend the night together, right? Like the Rolling Stones thing that Sullivan made him change. Not quite the same punch. And you can trust me not to think. Nobody wants that, babe. We want you to think. We don't want a boyfriend who no thoughts, just vibes. So this was the first single.

It came out in advance of the album in July of 1992. to might surprise people because this song is like omnipresent to this day. It did not do well when it first came out. It took over a year before it actually was like

on the radio charting like the massive thing that we know it today. Like it just kind of fell flat when it first came out. It's a funny thing about that record too. It's like actually it was released with a completely different cover

this kind of weird generic looking cactus cover before it has the sort of famous cover of the band on the van. And hey jealousy, I think There was two different cuts of the video edits of the video. I mean, they shot it twice, I believe. There was three.

The third one is the one that finally got, I guess the first two were rejected by MTV. So the third one is what got them on MTV. But again, that took a lot of time. A lot of time. And there was also a sense that I think, you know, the story goes, people at A&M believed in the song. And there was some kind of like interest, but it never quite, but they kept working. It kept working. It sort of gave up, came back.

But it's like it had several lives ultimately until it caught on. And it was sort of weirdly, even though I think it peaked maybe in, at 25 on the top 40, it was on for, you know, it was on the charts or a chart or another for like a period of two years almost as it was kind of first released and didn't do anything and then kind of caught on and then it caught this bigger wave and eventually became a sort of hit, you know, became a top 40 hit. The version I have heard is that they were ready to kind of move on from the record, A&M was in terms of their promo department. The radio people were like, let's give it one more kind of thing. And that's when it caught on and kind of saved the record

and saved the project and turned it into, you know, the hit it became. And by the, you know, I think once that was a hit, it started selling a lot. And it was selling them, you know, by that first, by 93, by the fall of 93, it was like it sold a million or a million and a half records. But it had been out, you know, quite a while. So it had a weird sort of root and life to becoming a hit that was very unusual. Totally. I mean, thank God, because that also gave way this album has four hits on it.

ultimately, like, until I fall away, found out about you, which is one of my other absolute favorite song, and Allison Rose, which to this day you can hear all of those on the radio. Yeah, those are radio staples, modern rock radio staples. Found out about you, Doug Hopkins song has one of my favorite lines of all time. Is there a line that I could write that's sad enough to make you cry? The songs are loaded with gems. like that.

You know what I mean? Yes. Mrs. Rita that we talked about earlier, I really love that song. I didn't get enough shine. I don't think, but it's a great song written by Jesse and Jim. Allison wrote, as we mentioned, Robin. I also really love that song Hands Tied. I feel like that could have been a hit as well written by Jesse.

And Lost Horizons, which opens the album was kind of like, this is the first song The Blossoms ever played on stage, and it was a song they played at the CMJ thing where they got their big break. And that's like, there really is not a duff song on this record. which is, you know, you almost can't say that about any album. But again, I think the variety of it, even though Doug wrote, I think, or co-wrote six of the whatever, 11-12 songs, but the variety of voices, the variety of writers, the variety of sort of combinations and kind of things that sort of, it gives it this sort of differing feel. And yet, everything's really good on it.

So, yeah, it's kind of the unique element of the band, too, I think. Let's hear another song. Let's hear Found out about you, because I'm in charge and I love that song. this is Found Out About You. That was Found Out About You, another goddamn gorgeous beautiful song, if you will. You know, one of the things in listening to that, and that is another song that you mention that you hear in CVS is and everywhere. I've heard that got so many different places. I don't know, hang out at the CVS, just wait for it to come on.

But one of the things, one of the reasons why I think those songs became hits and why they've endured is because they sound so good. And I think that's down to Hampton and Arden. And I was actually talking with a guy not that long ago who worked at Arden guy named Jeff Powell, who was very close to Hampton. And I was like, I always thought there's something about the, you know, I'm not articulate enough in terms of my technical acumen to sort of express it. But I was like, there's something weird about the compression on that, on these records that like, there's, what is it?

And he sort of explained it to me. And it makes sense is they actually recorded that in Arden Studio A, which is the big room where big star did all their stuff on the Neve, you know. And then they mixed it in Studio B, which is actually. you were the replacements did. Pleased to meet me, recorded that. But the board that they mixed it on was called an SSL E-series, and it had a built-in thing called a bus compressor.

And I guess the way he explained it is it had a slowest attack and fastest release on that compressor, which is kind of the opposite of what everyone was doing. So it kind of brings up the low end and makes everything sound really full. That's the iconic alt-rock sound is what you're talking about. The iconic alt-rock power pop sound. This is a good, okay, I'm keeping. please keep going, but you have sparked a thought.

And I was going to say also, you know, like Hampton, who I was fortunate to see him work in the studio, I mean, being a drummer, he got great drum sounds, he knew how to balance and pan things. I mean, he, it's funny, when you listen to some of the things he was mixing, like, you know, totally unrelated, like country stuff, like Little Texas or Travis Tritt.

They sound, even though you might not like the music, they sound really great. And I think a lot of it was because he was, he had figured out this sort of, you know, this perfect kind of chain of things of recording on the Neve and mixing on the SSL and the sort of sound of the bus compressor and how he used it. And so, you know, nobody ever thinks of stuff like that, but sometimes why songs become hits and why they endure is it has a pleasing sort of quality that to the layperson, you know, it doesn't, you don't, it doesn't register,

but it is pleasing in that sense, you know, on a kind of just purely visceral, you know, level as you absorb the song. And I think that's why this stuff still sounds pretty good on the radio or out of the tinny speakers at a CVS, you know? Totally. It's funny that you bring this up because I think like, ironically, that sound is also what puts off a lot of people.

You know, like people who are dismissive of the gin blossoms, I think really are reacting to the production because it's so clean and poppy and they just lump it in to this group of sort of like 90s pop rock music. And I, okay, I'll bring this up to say, let's hear a clip of the normal Allison Road. Now I want to play for the canon, the cover of Allison Road by White Fence, is just to demonstrate like how gorgeous and well-constructed these songs are and how beautifully written they are. even without that production,

you can just hear them in a different way and you can see how good they are. This is a very stripped down rendition that kind of sounds 60s, but it's so good. So here is Allison Road cover by White Fence. That was Allison Road by White Fence. Shout out Tim Presley. What a gorgeous version.

That is very, very good. I've never heard that. I don't think that blossoms are banned as far as I know that have been covered a whole bunch. Which is crazy. Yeah, but that's a song that really harkens back. I think that song probably has its roots in kind of, you know, 60s garage pop, you know, Nugget style kind of thing.

And so it's interesting to hear an interpretation that sort of really takes it back to that, that style and that aesthetic. So it really does work. It's so good. Can't wait to make my band where I just do various gin blossoms covers amongst some original material. Watch out for it. 2022, Babes. Let's talk about the receptionist album.

And then I want to circle back to like when the, album actually gets huge, which again is not right when it comes out, like we said. So Chicago Tribune, I couldn't find the actual write-up, but from what I can tell they did not like it, unless two stars is out of three stars. But I have a feeling two stars is out of five stars. And so I don't think they liked it. Anyways, I couldn't find any other reviews of this album. So I don't, I don't know. The Phoenix New Times were really excited about it. They had hometown love, but they were not, you know, a critics band, and even in that year before they got popular, I don't think they were, you know, there were some people like, you know, liked it and there was good reviews or decent

reviews, but it wasn't like treated like an indie band on a major label who most critics would root for or give a break to kind of thing. And I don't know if because the music was so out of step with what was happening then. I mean, think about 1992, 1993, what was being released was Nirvana's never mind was, did not release, 191, but 1992 is when it really broke through and was dominating the, I just,

yes, for those drinking at home, I did already mention it, but here's the big mention. Just as pervasive was Gin Blossom's Hay Jealousy. Like, on the same radio stations,

like K-Rock played both Nirvana and Hay Jealousy. You know, like it was all sort of jumbled into one. But I don't think, you know, I'm just, kind of thinking back to the time. I don't think people knew what to make of it. It wasn't because they

weren't a band that had this sort of indie label history where they put out three, four albums and before they got signed. And so they had, you know, kind of had credited the bank with critics. It was like, you know, they put this one sort of small regional album out that nobody ever heard, really. And then they got signed to A&M. So they were just seeing this sort of this major label band. And then, you know, what people knew about them. And the Doug thing was kind of vague at that time, you know, before he passed and everything. So it was sort of. like they were a little unknown. A&M maybe didn't, wasn't the hippest label at that moment probably, you know, because the stuff that was big was on Geffen or Columbia or whatever. Totally. It was like in utero.

Siamese Dream by the Smashing Pumpkins. Pearl Jams versus like sort of all the like cool rock of 1993 that was also. But counting crows. Counting Crows was August and everything after. Well, this was a little ahead of that, I think. And I think, you know, the counting crows, the matchbox 20. those beings, I think, sort of came, I don't want to say in the wake, but certainly kind of parallel or a little bit later.

But doesn't it make sense to you that Hey, jealousy didn't take a foothold until 1993 when counting crows and all that stuff came out? I feel like it was like ahead of its time,

but then managed to like join that wave, which was like rising in 1993. Yeah, I think, you know, like all things, it's like when Nirvana breaks, then everybody goes to, signed stuff that's in Seattle or sounds like that, which was certainly heavier. And some people might say more plotting if you're comparing it to Pearl Jam or the Pearl Jam

or the Pearl Jam knockoff. So it takes like a while for that stuff to filter. And I think it was probably my recollection of it is there was a lot of stuff that sounded like that. And while the ginbloss was certainly didn't sound like that, this was more poppy, more open. The production was certainly different. At first, it probably didn't fit. And maybe that's what the problem was with Hey, jealousy kind of breaking or taking so long to break. But yeah, maybe it took that year for it to sort of really happen. It needed Mr. Jones. Or, you know, I think they did their first tour with like,

I can't remember it was like Toad the Wets Brocket and things like that. I mean, there's always pop stuff. There's always pop stuff on the radio. But I think, you know, their timing. I mean, that's why it's funny that it succeeded because this record and this sound at that time could have very, very easily been kind of swept away by the sort of tidal wave of, you know,

grunge and post grunge and Seattle stuff that was sort of dominating at that time. But somehow, like I say, that song was a little song that could, and this record was a record that kind of maybe was an alternative to what was sort of so pervasively alternative, which was all that kind of heavier, you know, drop-tuned Seattle, grunge stuff. I'm obsessed with the fact that Chicago Tribune was like, no, thank you. Because they were actually huge in Chicago. But it makes sense.

Chicago is a snobby place. That's maybe one of the... Marks of Chicago. However, the Phoenix New Times was like, this is the goddamn best rock album that's come out this entire year. This is amazing five stars go by it. So I really love that. Hometown love. A producer, Jill has pointed out that in the Rolling Stone album guide, they called it pottery barn rock, that as good as pottery barn rock could get. Hmm. Damning with praise. You know, and that's funny. I think that's part of why, among many reasons, why the, you know, this record. I bet if this, if they had been a band that had put out three records on, I don't know, you know, Tang or Matt, whatever, the label would have been indie label at that time that would have alias or whatever. And they had graduated to the major labels. I think the perception and the response would have been different. I think they were seen because people didn't really know the history in the 10 years before and, you know, any of that stuff. I think they were just seen

as like some major label band that was, you know. It's absolutely that and it's the production. Like, For example, Tari, can you please play a clip of, yes, that's right, Nirvana, drain you? I mean, like, A, Kurt Cobain does not sing, like Robin. So that's one stark difference. But, I mean, and I was arguing about this with producer Dylan in the chat earlier, where I feel like a hallmark of Power Pop is also this sort of, like, thin white man voice that is, I love, but is like sort of like higher in tone.

I don't know. You know, I'm not good with. the words of music. But you know what I'm saying, like a little bit, just like higher in the register, a little bit less deep, a little, you know, it's a very classic power pop voice, whereas like Kurt Cobain was like scratchy gargly. And also that album is produced totally different. I mean, that album is like, Butch Vig was like, let's make it sound like a vacuum cleaner here and let's, you know, like, or whatever. But then they let Andy Wallace mix it. I mean, that's like, it's funny because I remember being in Arizona at the time, that didn't, you know, it sounded like

pretty polished record, but I guess, you know, when it's on the radio, you're kind of thinking, never mind, I mean. And when you listen to the Blossom's record, it doesn't lack for, it isn't as polished, certainly as like Matchbox 20 or even kind of counting crows, but I guess there is a certain sound. But I, you know, I think in a funny way, the Arden thing, if it had been done in New York or L.A. or with some other producers, the Arden way and the Hampton way and that sound is actually more in line with a lot of kind of classic American rock and roll records. It's more in line with a kind of Tom Petty sound

or even in a weird way with their replacements, please to meet me. If you listen to the sort of certain elements, that is not to say the music sounds like that or the singer sounds like that, but from a purely sort of production aspect and sonic aspect, you know, it shouldn't have been perceived as so

like weak or Craven or pottery barn rock. And I think, you know, time has sort of been the Great Equalizer in that that record sounds as good as any and probably better than a lot of stuff that was considered heavier and cooler out in 1993. Totally. Yeah, I have to agree with you. I feel like there's some shared pop referential DNA across a lot of these bands and it's just the presentation and the sound is different.

And so people equate presentation and sound with coolness. And it doesn't so much have to do. with the actual like guts of the music. Because it's not like they didn't have the like credentials like you're saying. Like drunk in a bar for 10 years in flannels, check and check and check, babe.

Like they had it in spades. Producer Dylan under a review in musician magazine that says Arizona's gin blossoms don't sound like big star the way say teenage fan club Xerox them. The similarities are more subtle. When vocalist Robin Wilson

sings a line in Hey, Jealousy that could have fallen out of Big Stars 13. He sounds less like Alex Chilton than he does. The grassroots is Rob Grill. That's fine by me. Dylan, who wrote that? Who wrote that review? Perceptive review. Dave DeMartino.

Cream Magazine legend. Shout out Dave DiMartino. I thought it was very, I thought that was very good. But, you know, that's interesting. You read that review and that's a really perceptive and accurate review from somebody who's actually listening, you know, Dave D. Martino being a cream guy, he has reference points. He understands. he knows Big Star, he knows sort of the sees the through line there and can hear and listen

and write empathetically and correctly, I think. Whereas I think at that time, everybody else was in this sort of, you know, post-Nirvana kind of poserdom of its own where it was just like anything that didn't sound a certain way, we're going to dismiss it, you know. Yeah. They're not that far, you know, when you listen to those two records, they're teenage fan called Banwagonesque and New Mystery Experience have a lot more in common than the Nirvana record. I think, you know, even though probably at that point,

Teenage Fan Club was much cooler. What didn't they finish ahead of Nirvana? It was, never mind in the spin pole that year. You know, so like it was a cool factor that I think was missing. Your mind is full of trivia. Yeah. Some of that was some of that, again, like you say, is the voice, is Robin's voice.

It's a very specific kind of instrument. And again, it's people not knowing sort of the history of the band and who and really what they were, you know, in the lead up to this. Totally. And I think maybe also like while we have determined that there was a Tempe scene, it wasn't really a big thing like the way maybe a Seattle scene was or whatever, you know? Well, no. When the Blossoms hit, it kind of became a thing of every A&R guy came looking for the next scene. And so they came to Tempe in in quick succession. You know, Atlantic signed this band dead out workshop. I think Mercury signed the band won. The refreshments got signed also by Polygram or Mercury. You know, so it was like bam, bam, bam. none of those being sort of broke quite the way the Blossoms did. But I think, yeah, there was no hip association with the scene.

The Blossoms had created the scene and the major sort of came to Tempe after that. I remember the real world, L.A., the one woman, Rachel, I think, was her name, who's kind of like a closet Republican or maybe she's not a closet Republican, her audition tape. She was standing outside of Long Wong's, the Gin Blossom's home, singing, miming to Hey, Jealousy. That was her audition. So that was probably the coolest, cool.

coolest association that the Bossum's had at that time. Yeah, that didn't help them. Did not help them. You know, it's all marketing, babe. So, like we said, Hey Jealousy does not become a huge hit until the summer of 1993.

But once it, like, sort of crawls up and, like, powers through and becomes, like, huge, it's everywhere. I mean, I think they're playing, I don't know the exact timeline, but, like, you know, they play Letterman, I think, around this time. From their new miserable, experience album. Ladies and gentlemen, here they are, the gin blossoms.

Well, they played actually twice. I think they played Letterman's old show in 92, you know, kind of when it was at 1230. And then in that interim, when he went to, Letterman went to CBS in the fall of 93, which was a very big deal. They also reappeared there in a much more heightened sort of circumstance. And I think that really kind of blew them up as well. That was over in October, I think, in 93. There's a classic tale of them coming back to town. I don't know. the exact timing after touring a bunch and at Long Wong Wong's Robin walking out of the bathroom and being met

by Doug's fist square into his face. He himself told the story on this VH1 video that I found on the internet. I come out of the bathroom and all of a sudden pow, right across my face and he hits me and he grabs me and exeathing son of a bitch. He was punching down because Doug was a pretty big guy

eventually Doug was fired from the band and had some hard feelings about it. Initially, I think when the record was going to, when it looked like the Jim Blossom's record was going to sort of fail, his feelings weren't that hard, you know, which is sort of strange because, I mean, he stood to gain a lot from the album of it was a success. But then in this weird way, it started to become a success. And I think the success nagged that they were becoming successful off of, as he perceived at the back of his work, you know, nagged at him. So there was some real ill will.

and there was a lot of sort of newspaper articles in the local press, a lot of back and forth, and them trying to minimize what he did and him trying to sort of, you know, calling them coattail riding sons of bitches or whatever it was. So I think, you know, it got kind of ugly there. But then Doug went actually pretty quickly and formed an, you know, was looking for the next thing.

I think he was convinced he could, you know, make lightning strike twice in terms of having a band. And so he hooked up with the Zubia brothers, Mark and Lawrence Zubia, who had been in a group called the Chimeras and or live nudes and different bands. town and Tempe and they sort of formed a band together, recruited a rhythm section from the sort of blues band in town that was real rock solid. And Doug started writing songs. And again, we talked about

that thing of Doug having this really chameleon-like quality, not being a singer, but writing for different singers. When he started that new band, Chimeras in 93, he started at Lawrence Zubia, late great Lawrence Zubia was a completely different singer, throaty, roots rock, kind of chican, His nickname was the Chicano Bono, and he was a kind of very rootsy-thrody singer. And so then Doug starts writing completely different songs, you know, different types of songs. Like Unos dos-Tres Cotorze type song. Well, in a way, in a way. And it's funny, they again, they started looking like they were going to do something.

They played South by Southwest in 93. You know, Doug had a kind of reputation. It had signed a deal. People were kind of sniffing around them again. And sort of the repeat of the ball. Blossom's thing before it even got, they got signed or got to the studio. He sort of self-destructed and they had to kind of let him go from the band. So, you know, that would have been towards, you know, in 93 and ultimately led sadly in December of 93 to a point where Doug was just, you know,

I think it exhausted a lot of the options in his life and was sort of not seeing things and the alcoholism was worse. And obviously the tragic ending of his life where he committed suicide in December of 93, which obviously was a pretty big deal for the blossoms who were, you know, just really starting to explode at that point. Yeah. It's a weird thing. And I think, again, that in a funny way, it adds to the story of that record and of this band, but it also unfortunately kind of dooms them, I think, in a way too.

You know, it does more probably for Doug's reputation as this sort of tragic figure than it it did for the band, you know. Yeah. No, I mean, it's so. sad. It's definitely not like it's a, what's the term, correlation is not causation situation. You know, like, whereas like, of course you'd have to imagine that the circumstances of, you know, being asked to leave your band and then watching a song you wrote become the biggest song in the country contributes to your despondency. But like, I think it's really reductive to, uh,

boil it down to like this happens so then this happened and I think that is sort of what people you know maybe have made the case for and it's it's not really fair I think that's what people took in the most simplistic way which was obviously it but obviously his problems and you know anything that drives somebody to that point it's not about it's not about that I mean it wasn't about money it wasn't even really about credit I think those problems sort of were lifelong problems of issues of depression and alcoholism and that sort of found the sort of you know ultimately that kind of came down to that kind of that ending. I don't think you can sort of point the blame,

although certainly a lot of people did try and point the blame it directly at the band. Fair or not, you know. Yeah, it's very sad. I wanted to read this portion of this article that I mentioned earlier in the Detroit Metro Times called Jesus of Suburbia by Brian Smith, who I think was one of Doug's best friends.

And a great musician himself and songwriter himself, actually. Yeah, because they played music together, right? Yeah, Brian. had a band called the Beat Angels. It was actually produced by Gilby Clark, had two incredible power pop records that are available on Spotify. People should check those out, the Beat Angels. So he wrote, we knew Doug Hopkins, fucking Hopkins. He had these long, flat boat feet attached to long legs. His arms were long, fingers to, everything long. He was tall in every way. His mind moved faster than his feet could take him. Clumsy as hell. His hasty gate got him tripping, running into things.

And the guy couldn't see too well, had this giant nose like Pete Townsend, and a cleft in one eye that split the iris into two parts, sometimes into different colors, depending on the sun, so that when you looked into it, you immediately wanted to know more about the guy. It was weird like that. He hated it. Girls loved it. He'd keep his bangs in his eyes, maybe because of the eye, but mostly because he was shy. Doug was the funniest man alive, we'd say. And he was. He'd slay anyone in five words, maybe four. His command of the king's English was humbling. His intellect, like his boozing, knew few limits. I figured he had a good mother. He went, once told me that she gave him Catcher in the Rye when he was a boy. Who'd give their preteen son

Catcher in the Rye? She walked on water. I just thought that was so beautiful. I wanted to read it. And it's a beautiful story. Jesus Suburbey in the Detroit Metro Times. And I believe there's actually an attempt to kind of translate that Brian and his wife written a screenplay that supposedly they're going to make into a into a film about Doug's life and parts of Doug life. Yeah. It's a real Brian is a gorgeous writer. It's a really, really, like, well-written, like impactful piece. But I just, you hear a lot of of stories about Doug Hopkins, but you don't ever really hear much about what he was like as a person besides that he was a terrible drunk and he wrote really good songs. But I mean, he was a lot of other things because he was a human being that had many layers. And I just, I liked that sort of

bringing him to life and a couple of paragraphs there. Yeah, my favorite story is that he got a, you know, he eventually graduated from ASU with a degree in sociology. And, you know, the perfect thing Doug said. He's like, yeah, I did that so I could get a job. at Vickers, which was the gas station, the thing is like a sociology degree probably wasn't worth much than, as it probably is not now. But anyway, I digress.

Shout out college. Pradesh of Dillon also gathered some remembrances from some of his friends that they published in the Phoenix New Times in 1993. One was from Lori Natarro, who's an author. He had to eat cat food one time because they were so damn broke, and he ended up giving half of it to the cat,

because the cat just kept looking at him. The way he told it, it was so funny. This was like two weeks ago. I was laughing and I was crying. And then Lauren Subia, his former bandmate, May he rest in peace, said, no one feels any guilt. I tried to do everything I could.

Everyone did. All the dead hot workshop guys who were his best friends, Sandra, his girlfriend, the chimeras. If there was anything else we could have done for Doug, we had already done it. You know what I mean? You can tell me this better

as you have a relationship with the gin blossoms. But it felt like that was sort of, while they were like obviously devastated and it was like a horrible loss and tragedy, like it felt like that was sort of the sentiment of the gin blossoms too. It wasn't like, you know, they had not done everything they could.

Yeah, but I mean, that relationship of dug in the blossoms was so complicated by, you know, what had transpired and the sort of weirdness of what was going on. You know, it's hard to speculate, but I think if that record had died a quiet death, would things have been different?

I don't know. I think you can see the repetition and the patterns in Doug's life from, you know, Algebra Ranch to, you know, blossoms to the chimeras and how he sort of, I think he was headed on his path no matter what it was. One way or another, it would have ended that way, unfortunately, when you have addiction and mental health issues that go unaddressed. You know, like you say, have you ever tried helping an addict? Yeah, exactly.

I mean, it goes, it's extremely. This is the Al-Anon episode of Van Flynn. Yeah. No, it's rough. Why don't we hear a song that Doug wrote for the chimeras that later became the Pistalleros? This is My Guardian Angel. That was My Guardian Angel by the Pistalleros,

written by the late Doug Hopkins. Okay, well, Bob, before we move on to the musical output of the Jin Bossam's post Doug's untimely death, I wanted to ask a question that kind of, applies to new miserable experience and then also to what we are going to talk about after, which is, until I hear it from you, congratulations, I'm sorry. Who was the fan base of the Jinbossoms?

I was just, I guess I was trying to figure out because it's like when you have that like one major hit but you don't have a lot of mythology, like what is the makeup of that kind of fan base? Because I was like, I was like, okay, is this like a vampire weekend A-Py? situation where it's like, yeah, they're a band that has like a lot going on and a lot of different layers, but like many, many people came to them as like kind of casual music listeners who heard A Punk on the radio and they're like, oh, I've heard this band. I'll go see the concert. Well, I think that's, it's probably fair to say that the majority of their fan base came to them

from the radio play they were getting and the MTV played to a certain extent. But when you look at New Miserable experience, it's not just Hey, Jealousy, but all the other sort of singles that followed found out about you alison road till i fall away and those not only sort of penetrated you know what was then alternative radio or and modern rock radio but they also got into almost some kind of like adult contemporary radio with the ballads and stuff sure they were products of a of a success a song based success that was radio driven primarily you know again mtv to a certain extent and i think that becomes a little bit more crystallizes a little bit more with the second album. I don't think somehow that they had enough time for a kind of image or a hierarchy, I suppose,

to crystallize. So it felt like they were somewhat faceless group to a certain extent. And they're regular-looking guys. Obviously, they dressed in a post-replacements, post-grunge style, you know, ripped up jeans and flannels and that kind of thing was, although I don't know who wears flannels in Tempe. It's hot as blazes out there. They all wore flannels, babe. Every video I saw of them performing live involved at least three to five flannels. shirts on the stage. So I'll tell you what. There wasn't a person, you know, a kind of solid look. There wasn't a solid sort of face or frontman, you know, other than Robin to a certain extent. And so I think, you know, in that vacuum, some something got lost in terms of what audience they

could connect with or how the audience would identify them. So I think it really just became, this is a band that's about the songs, about the singles primarily. You know, unfortunately, people didn't have a whole lot to sink their teeth into, I suppose. And in a way, when those songs were no longer new or being played on the radio, the vision of the band or the attachment to the band, you know, went away or became a very kind of

slippery thing, I think. Yeah, you know, it's interesting, though, because, like, I remember seeing them on TV. They were on TV a lot, post New Miserable Experience. Like, you know, late night shows, they're on Letterman. They were on...

Letterman, John Stewart, Saturday Live. John Stewart is a great... Yeah, they played Saturday Night Live, which was, like, a huge deal. I couldn't find any footage of it. apparently it's not on YouTube, but I did find the John Stewart one, which was very good. They had some cultural cashier, is what I mean, because they were also like, you know, they show up at the ending of Wayne's World 2.

For those who don't remember, Wayne's World 2 ends with Wayne Stock, which is a music festival, you know, featuring Crucial Taunt, which was Cassandra's band, Aerosmith, Pearl Jam, Van Halen. Gin Blossoms do not perform. They are just being escorted out of a limo with Nash Cady. of urge overkill at the very end. So, like, I mean, they were, they were somebody's enough

to, like, you know, show up in pop culture. They also appeared on this, like, very bizarre album called Kiss My Ass, classic Kiss re-groved, which was like, sort of a album of covers

for the 20th anniversary of Kiss. And also appeared on Letterman with Kiss to perform this in 1994. Yeah. It's funny, the life cycle of new miserable experience because it was so long, you know,

It came out in 92, didn't really start hitting until 93. They toured relentlessly for another two years off the back of that. So the life cycle of that album from, you know, recording to the end of the tour, it was like four, almost five years, really, when you look at it, before they really start making the second record. And in that interim, obviously, the singles had this incredible lifespan and longevity. And so a lot of this stuff sort of came to them. They were a hot band for a long time in that sort of pocket of, you know,

92 to 94, 95, even into 96 when the second record comes out. This kind of brings us to like their appearance on the Empire Records soundtrack, which I think we talked about a little bit before, but just this is like the next meaningful release of music for them, till I hear it from you, which is a huge hit. Before we move on, let's hear till I hear it from you, because it's a goddamn gorgeous, beautiful song that goes in the canon. This is, till I hear it from you.

That was till I hear it from you. they wrote this with an outside writer Marshall Crenshaw and that's why they didn't want to put it on New Miserables. Oh, sorry, congratulations, I'm sorry. Yeah, I mean, as this story goes, you know, and also to think back that era, it was an era of really big and potent soundtracks and where original songs on soundtracks

could become very big hits. Huge. This is a whole other podcast, the, like, massive impact of soundtracks in the 90s in terms of, like, breaking songs and music. Right. So they wrote this song, co-wrote it with Marshall Crenshaw for the Empire Records soundtrack, which is kind of perfect because half the guys in Jim Blossom's worked at record stores.

And so there was a kind of connection there. But I think the idea was Marshall Crenshaw was a hero of the guys, Robin, Jesse in particular, great pop songwriter, craftsman, you know, important for them. They connected with him, wrote this song, was a big hit for Empire Records. I think the thinking was, at least at that time, they were working with the outside writer. they wanted to, I think in the wake of Doug's, you know, sort of leaving the band and his passing subsequently, they wanted to not appear to be, you know, using outside riders that they were a self-sustaining, self-contained entity. Totally.

And so they chose not to include what was, you know, your lead-off monster hit, really, even though, again, it was written for the soundtrack and they certainly could have included on the album. They chose not to put it on the album, at least initially, there were some later CD bonus versions that did have it on there. but I think that was one sort of strategic decision that, you know, that song was so massive and it came so kind of close, relatively speaking, you know, before the album was released, before the Blossom Second album was released. It sort of would have been just logical for it to be on there. And people, I'm sure a lot of people went expecting it by that record that it would be on there and it wasn't or it would turn up on there.

So, you know, that was probably, again, the complications of losing your chief songwriter and the circumstances of his passing, I think sort of led to some decisions, you know, practical decisions that probably weren't the best for the success of that second record. Leaving that song off the album was one of them. Here's what people don't remember, though. Congratulations, I'm sorry, Slaps.

It's a good album that has great songs on it. Follow You Down was a huge hit. I quite love Not Only Numb. I love Not Only Numb. It's a beautiful song. There's many gorgeous songs on here. It's like a solid album. It's not exactly as good as numerous as a bowl experience,

but it's not like a huge like departure in quality. No, I mean, they went back to Memphis. They worked with John Hampton again. They got off to tour off that, which was as I say, like two, three years of solid touring. And, you know, they were ready to go right back in the studio. I think if there's, the reason the record maybe isn't as good is not because of the typical reasons of a sophomore slump where, you know,

you're on the road, don't have time. you know, you have your whole lifetime to write your first record. But there's a lot going on. You know, I mean, I think these miserable experience is a combination of factors. It really is the kind of evolution of the band of songwriting, of Doug songwriting. In the case of congratulations, I'm sorry, they are now, this is a band that's completely sort of not rudderless, but having to reconstitute itself creatively. You know, when you lose your main songwriter, the guy who wrote half or co-wrote half of the songs on the first album,

you're still having to sort of start from scratch in a sense. And so I think it's a transitional record in a weird way because they're sort of re, they're trying to replicate, you know, something they did, but you're trying to do it without, you know, everybody who was involved the first time. If not for the comparison of New Mesrael experiences where that record sold three, four million copies

and spawned all these hits, it would be seen as a huge success, you know. The shame of it is as, you know, history sort of goes on, here that they didn't get a chance really in that first incarnation to follow it up and make a third album because I think that would have been, you know, the point where they would have continued that success. Well, Bob, why don't we hear a song off congratulations? I'm sorry. You know, I want to play not only numb, but then I'm like, do we need to hear follow you down? Well, I think this whole album in a kind of inescapable way is tinged with everything that had happened to the band in the sort of

years before. Right. I think everything for the blossoms was pretty bittersweet. And I think Follow You Down to that extent in that it was, I believe, the first single off that album, you know, proper, it really is about, or certainly tinged or colored by what had happened with Doug and their whole band's history, you know, and up to that point. Yeah. Well, you know what?

I'm the boss. We're going to hear both. Let's hear Follow You Down. That was Follow You Down. Producer Dillon has pointed out that this song did appear on the soundtrack of how to lose a guy in 10 days, a fine film. So they were doing okay with at least sinks and placements.

I mean, in classic Grammys are going to do as Grammys want. There's a song on this album that was not Follow You Down, was nominated for a Grammy for Best Pop performance as long as it matters. They did not win. where it's like, really?

Like, that's the gin blossom song that got nominated for a Grammy of all the gin blossom songs and the gorgeous gin blossoms canon. The reviews of this album were kind of mixed. The LA Times gave it three stars and it's like kind of a positive review. Like, I think the main salient point

that's made there is that they're talking everything in the way that then gin blossoms are talked about after Doug's death is like post-Dug. It's always kind of through that lens. So, you know, this writer is saying, without Hopkins, the musicianship remains, and the overall mood is a bit lighter. Which I guess is honestly kind of true. Yes, but just a bit, I think. Not totally.

It's still a, there's a kind of melancholy sort of baked into Robin's voice and I think the way those guys write. But yes, I mean, there's less, the imagery is less sort of alcohol drenched and alcoholism. I was really trying to distill, like, as I. I listen to the subsequent gin bosom's releases, like what that one like sort of like unnameable quality of the Doug songs is that kind of sets them apart from the other gin bassem songs, there's just like a desperation that I think isn't really present in other ginbossom songs and not that songs need to have desperation in them. But I think that's maybe the like thing that people really react to in particular in the Doug songs.

And I think almost on an unknowing or unconscious level, it's not that that stuff, that desperation is spelled out, although sometimes I suppose it is in some of the songs. But I think it's just, it's imbued into, you know, the melodies, the chords, the progressions. It's just something, you know, the great songwriters have the ability to convey that without being sort of obvious about it, it's just part and parcel of what they do. Yeah, there's just like there's that extra, I don't want to say urgency, but yeah, desperation. Well, this seems like a great time to play my other favorite song off of Congratulations. I'm sorry, which is Not Only Numb. It's a beautiful song, so you should all hear it. This is Not Only Numb. That was Not Only Numb. Bob, what about the

song Seeing Stars that was left off of this album? Because I found that very interesting, I think it's a good song. But this song was like written pretty explicitly about Doug, but then they left it off the album. But then it also, it shows up on a, I think, the B side of the follow you down single. Right. It's weird to say because I have kind of a local perspective on it. And, you know, after Doug was fired from the band and then and then the band became successful and then Doug killed himself. And then the band had to sort of deal with that. There was a, there had been a lot of kind of back and forth in the local press after Doug's firing that was pretty negative. And as you mentioned, you know, Doug came in Cole Cockrobs. So they were, there was a lot of,

which at the time probably seemed sort of trivial and catty, but obviously in the wake of Doug's passing, all that became sort of intensified and magnified meaning of all that stuff. And so I think there was a tendency in the aftermath of that and their success to try and leave any of those associations and the Doug stuff. I mean, you know, there's interviews from 96 where they won't talk about him or they'll only talk in passing. And it was, I think, a protective impulse, you know, in a sense.

And a thing that made sense they were trying to move on. Here's that we're a multi-platinum band. And so I think that probably the decision to leave that off is part of it. We won't play all of seeing stars, but I did want to clip it because there's just like, I just found it so interesting given, and I totally understand what you're saying of like, they kind of wanted to maybe distance themselves

or at the very least not be defined by this, you know, situation that had happened. But, you know, considering Robin wrote seeing stars and like, you know, the mythology around like Doug punching, Robin when he got back from tour and like maybe that sort of like back and forth between the two of them where like this is like a really beautiful sort of eulogy song and like there's a lyric that's like with a little luck one night we'll drink together in a different light our heads down our ears ring we only see angels when we both believe it's just like a really really beautiful

song about a friend that's gone um I just I was very touched by it yeah and Robin was always I think going back and a lot of these songs, he wrote these kind of personal acoustic ditties that maybe in some cases made the record, but in a lot of records, a lot of cases they didn't. I think this falls into that. And so I think in a way, him and Doug, that's how they first started playing, kind of was sort of

playing songs and writing songs together. And so this is kind of the capper of that relationship in a sad and beautiful way. Totally. Well, this album, again, it didn't do badly. Like, it went platinum, which is like pretty good. And, you know, again,

Kind of mixed reviews, but like, you know, People magazine wrote about it, Entertainment Weekly, like gave it a whole huge write-up and gave it a B. I mean, New Miserable Experience went four times platinum, so I guess maybe just one platinum was like not enough. I don't really know. I don't really know like what were the circumstances around the breakup. Like I'm so curious because I'm like, was the label pushing for a third album? Did they kind of just decide we can't do this? We're done. I think, again, it all kind of goes back to this weird sort of bittersweet sort of feeling

surrounding the band's success and the loss of Doug. I think by the time they went back to Memphis to make the second record, you know, the bloom was already a little bit off the rose. I think Robin in particular was feeling a lot of the weight of expectation and the pressure of things and still dealing with the aftermath of becoming successful but also losing Doug and the way they were being perceived. So I think by the time, you know, he always described the band as kind of a moving train from the time that he joined, the band had already been going maybe a year to the time that he got off. It was impossible to get off. And I think he knew even during the making and certainly by the time they were promoting the record that he wanted to leave the band. And, you know,

that's a luxury that elite singer always has because you've read the voice, you can take that with you. The way Robin told it, by the time they were even promoting that album, he was ready to move on. And I think he wanted a situation where he wanted to get with the guys he had been playing with even before the Blossoms as guys who were, you know, record store buddies, Dan Henseling, who had played in the Blossoms briefly as a drummer, G. Brian Scott, who'd work with him at Tau record. And I think he was already hatching that idea and had confided, in fact, to the Blossoms drummer, Phil Rhodes, that he was, you know, basically after this album, it was it. And I think Phil advised him, said, don't say that, don't tell anyone that, or we'll break up immediately.

And so they kept the secret, I think, essentially, for a period of months. and I think things between Bill and Robin were coming to a head, possibly with Jesse and Robin as well. What was that coming from? Well, I think, I don't know, it would be speculation on my part, but Doug's passing certainly weighed heaviest on Bill. Yeah, because they were like best friends. Right.

And I think, you know, when the band started, it was one thing, sort of, it was being led one way as they became successful. certainly more of the power consolidated in a sense with Robin, I think, you know, as the singer, as the front man, as the voice of the group. The only thing about them breaking up that it was surprising is that it didn't happen sooner in a sense because of the success. If they hadn't been successful, I'm quite convinced they would have, you know,

in the wake of Doug's passing, it would have fallen apart. Oh, 1,000 percent. The success kind of created an artificial life, you know, for the band and kept it going, although strangely, not that much longer. By the time they got to the end of 96 and the end of, that album cycle, which was a much shorter support and touring cycle than they'd had put behind new miserable experience, the band basically broke up everybody in Phoenix kind of knew by the end of the year of 96 that it was over. And so into 97, what essentially happens is the gin blossom sort of

splits up into two groups. Robin takes Philip the drummer and starts a new group initially called the Faro's, then Farrow's 2000 and then the gas giants, they had a lot of name trouble. So it's Robin, then Phil from the Jim Blossoms, the drummer, Dan Henserling, former member of the Jim Blossom is G. Brian Scott. And they start making an album for A&M. You know, obviously, in a way, the label was probably thinking, well, now we've got two groups out of the Jim Blossom's. You know, we're hedging our bets. One of them are both will be successful, we'll sell more records. The other segment of the group, essentially Jesse, who was the rhythm guitarist, and had previously been the original lead singer, the Jim Blossoms. He took Scott Johnson, the guitarist, and they went and formed another band with a guy named Winston Watson. And, and, some other folks, drummer, who Winston had played with Bob Dylan, had been in some local Phoenix groups, gentlemen after dark. And so they both started essentially making albums around that time for A&M. And Bill basically retired from the stage,

started selling books, antiquarian books or whatever. And so you've got kind of the within a year of the release of congratulations. I'm sorry, the band's over, split into two groups making albums for A&M. Unfortunately, what happened is the record business and reality and true. in the form of the Seagram's merger, which basically swallowed up A&M records and kind of cut the legs out from both groups. The Gas Giants had already, Robin's group had already finished a record, which went through various labels and eventually came out in 1999, the fall of 1999, a couple years later. The Low Watts record never really got made. Jesse ended up making kind of a solo

record, which was released belatedly. But in the sort of vestiges of those two albums, Jesse's solo album and the Gas Giants records, you have kind of what would have been a third gin blossoms album. And I think, strangely enough, that album might have been a bigger hit than Congratulations, I'm sorry, and it might have kind of continued, you know,

what the band had built. And sort of in the absence of the gin blossoms, you get a lot of bands like Matchbox 20. And the third eye blind kind of came in with a radio ready, accessible pop sound that had massive success, obviously. in that era. But the Blossoms, you know, they were ahead of those groups. They had a foundation.

I just think, you know, it's an unfortunate thing that kind of the specter of Doug and their own internal things sort of collapsed the band. And Robin's desires to do his own thing. And Jesse, you know, I think it's like anything. They were in, by that point, the band had been around 10 years. People change. They grow. They get older. They're once we have a success. You're not the same thing. But I think those records, even though they're pretty much lost to history, Jesse's solo record and the Gas Giants record, they had some really good stuff on them. you can almost kind of reconstruct a gin blossom's record, third record out of that. Well, I noticed that you point out that there is one gas giant song that we could hear called Quitter.

Yeah, that was kind of the first single off the record. Maybe not the best song, but in some ways very representative and you give you an idea what that would have sounded like. Yeah, let's hear it. I love to hear that. This is Quitter by the Gas Giants Robbins Band. That was Quitter. Yeah, that's a, I mean, I definitely hear what you're saying of like, this is definitely feels in like the lineage of gin blossoms. Yeah, and it's funny, both those records, I think,

more or less were produced by John Hampton and recorded art. And so it should, it was really like this weird kind of divorce where, you know, the family got split and one kid's kids went to different houses. But, you know, everything's kind of the same. I don't know. It was a very strange breakup. Honestly, if any band could have benefited from Dr. Phil Towell. Life is a cloudy day with occasional sunshine. Life is a permanent limp dick with an occasional blow job.

I like that. Where was Dr. Phil Towel here? I mean, Metallica was just mad at each other because, like, I don't know, James Hetfield was too quiet and withholding and they didn't like the way Lars looked at them or whatever. This band had some real ass shit to deal with, babe. They could have really used a feature-length document.

elementary therapy session. Where is Dr. Pelton? You need him, is what I'm saying. Again, this is pure speculation. But you would truly have to question the, like, character of people who could just robot through dealing with such, like, a devastating and also, like, morally complicated situation that, like, brings up a lot of, like, you know, not to get Jungi in here, but, like, a lot of shadow elements of everybody and just, like, have to concentrate.

constantly think about it, have to constantly be asked about it, have to constantly live it. Like, I can't imagine a set of people and play the songs. Exactly. Like, it's truly like being haunted. Like they, like, as long as, you know, they were going to keep playing as the gin bossoms, they were like effectively going to be haunted, you know? And so I can't imagine, again, any group of people that wouldn't be like, you know what, I'm more going to stop doing life. No, I mean, I think at the end of the day, there was a lot of lip service given to, oh, creative of reasons or, you know, the band's felt tired or we just wanted to try something. At the end of the day, you know what it was.

There was this, you know, Robin said it pretty succinctly I may have mentioned. It was like traveling around with this ghostly anvil, you know, weighing us down. And I think it was, again, if they hadn't been successful, the band probably would have broken up in 1992. Obviously, it wouldn't last because they did fairly soon after get back together. After about three years apart, they played a show on their last show, you know, in the original original incarnation was New Year's Eve 96 and come New Year's Eve of the Millennium, 99 into 2000. Chairs, the countdown's going to start as soon as we're out of here, all right?

Good night, everybody. Happy New Year! Y2K. Yeah, Y2K. They did play a one-off show. For those of you that celebrate. They did play a one-off show in Phoenix, and that started a kind of slow, you know, resolve in terms of their relationships and what the band was and kind of. started gin blossoms mock two, I guess, or three or four or five, depending on how you count the line of changes.

But then they didn't put out an album until 2006. So there was like kind of six years of just messing about. Yeah, I mean, I think it wasn't a full-time thing probably for a few years in terms of the full-scale reunion. Robin was still doing solo and other projects. Jesse was doing the same songwriting and that kind of stuff. I think for a period of time, they were just playing. And frankly, you know, I don't want to say they were playing for money,

but they joked they were the kings of the soft ticket, you know, playing fairs and festivals and Steve. It's very interesting to me. I mean, I love a soft ticket band. Are you kidding? Are you playing the county fair? You're probably in my top 10 favorite bands. The first song, congratulations, I'm sorry, about having a day job.

Day job, yeah. Babe, not to be rude, but you went four times platinum on your first album. Like, you don't need a day job. You might never need to work again. I don't know again. I don't have any insight into the financial situations of the gin blossoms. But like, I guarantee you. that nobody needed a day job come congratulations, I'm sorry.

Who knows what happens after? But like that's, again, we, there is, I don't know if this is like a public knowledge, but it's, you know, been talked about in various articles. Like Doug's estate is worth seven figures, like to this day, you know? Well, and of course, recently they did a deal with primary wave, the company that's buying all the catalogs and publishing rights. And I think just a few months ago, the gin blossoms and Doug's estate kind of did a deal where they packaged that stuff up.

So, you know, they're in, should be indecently. in shape. But I think those first years touring, it was, you know, there's practical considerations. I mean, none of them could do anything better than being the gin blossoms in terms of a financial reward. But I think it took a while until they made a first album in 2006, kind of reunited with John Hampton, Major Lodge Victory, and recorded that in Memphis. And I think, you know, that record, which I guess we're probably not going to play anything off of, I think, again, trying to figure out who they were as a band because it was very well defined. You know, from 1987 and 1992 when Doug was involved and they had that first version of the band, it was a very concrete thing. They were playing,

writing. They were together all the time. It was sort of pulling in one direction. After Doug gets pulled out, then they enjoy the success, but they have to kind of start figuring things out on congratulations. I'm sorry. And then in the later years when they reunite, they're really reuniting as a live act, you know, they're not a creative unit. They're playing the hits. They're doing the the road show. Okay, so we can't really hear a song in its entirety off Major Lodge victory. But just to give people a sense, like, is there a song that you want to point to on the album and we can play a clip just so people can kind of situate themselves with like what this first album back 10 years later sounds like? Well, between us, I think this is one of those records

where it's just like they just took solo songs. They're like, we have to put out a record. And this is not really like a band written thing. In fact, if you get it, there's almost no band. There's one. I would say, I guess, learning the hard way, that's kind of the single, you know. Let's hear a clip of learning the hard way. Yeah, I mean, I, we got a couple of reviews,

rounded up. Rolling Stone, Rolling Stone was not super nice about it, honestly. I believe they said something like, learning the hard way is the single and the high point. The rest is subpar, adult alternative that fails to invoke the spirit of 1994 top 40 radio, which in fairness, Rolling Stone,

it's 2006. This, you know, it's not 94 anymore. Entertainment Weekly gave it a B. They say that actually compared to Clinton-era hits from contemporaries like counting crows and spin doctors, the gin blossoms, REM light jingles

hold up surprisingly well. So calling their first seed in a decade more of the same isn't a knock. Good. Okay. Fair. So not that bad. No chocolate cake

2010 and this is really not meant to offend anyone but the album art of this album is horrifying what's going on here do you think it was just 2010 because I do often make the point

that this is like one of the ugliest aesthetic eras that we've ever had the displeasure of living through the beginning of the tens honestly like a good decade like 2005, 2015, we just slogged through some disgusting hideousness. Well, you know, in fairness, most people never saw the original cover of, because I think they may have made 100,000 copies of the original cover of New Miserable Experience,

which is literally like a brochure for a desert botanical garden. It's just not a good cover. The subsequent cover with the band, you know, with Scott Johnson-Dug's replacement in front of the van, them smoking, kind of captures the essence of them. It's actually a really good album cover. But that aside, their album covers have never been very good, which is funny because Robin is a graphics guy, he's a big comic book guy.

And the cover art for some of his side projects have been really great. But I don't know why the Blossoms have made some really good records, but mostly with not great covers. And this would certainly be the low point, I think, cover-wise. Yeah. Producer Gillen has uncovered a quote from Robin. in a 2018 interview in Forbes where he says,

the only problem we ever really had with A&M records when we were recording with them in the 90s was on the first album when they shoved a really lousy album cover down our throats. We protested and I'll never forget the day our product manager said, well, you don't understand marketing. And I was just like, I've been working my whole life to make this record. I have thousands of records. I've worked in a record store. I know what an album cover is supposed to look like, you know.

And it's not like a desert botanic garden, I assure you. Or like whatever is happening on the cover of, chocolate cake. I can't. Honestly, I can't even talk about it. I can't even talk about it. It makes me upset. And I don't think it's their fault. I agree. It's probably somebody at the label was like, you know what would be amazing? If you look at it, it is so of this era. It's literally, the woman is straight up wearing something that is akin to true religion jeans. I can't tell if they actually are true religion jeans, but they're like that vibe and holding a piece of chocolate cake behind her back. Which even the physics of that is hard to fathom.

It's also like clearly just very poorly photoshopped. It is. Oh, you don't think that's an original model holding of real life. Her hand is a strange, like either this is the largest piece of chocolate cake that's ever existed, or she's a child, or she has like some freakishly small hands. Anyways, that's really neither here nor there. There's like a couple of good songs on this album. I feel like it's definitely not my favorite Gin Blossoms album, I'll put it.

way. Well, and it's also the first record they made without John Hampton involved. As far as I know, I think there was a kind of blueprint there, I think, sonically and kind of in terms aesthetically that they had figured out with John and working at Arden. So I think, again, it's one of those things it's like, I love those guys, but sometimes I think the decision-making process in terms of like how are we going to make a great record, probably by this point they're figuring out the songwriting and how to work as a band again, but then you're sort of taking it in another direction, production-wise,

and I think it suffers from that. Totally. Also, I'm just going to blame it on the year. The year, 2010. An ugly year full of ugly things. This will give you the year vibe, the album hit number one on Amazon.com, mp3 album charts.

The other funny thing here is, if you last long enough, the perception of you is bound to change over time. Of course. I think this was the kind of wilderness years in a sense of, you know, the Blossomists figuring out what it is. We're still a band, but what are we? Are we just an oldies act? Are we just playing the hits on the casinos?

Are we a new creative entity? I think for them, it's taken a long time to figure it out. And I think with the first two records post reunion, they were figuring all that stuff out. And the world around them was sort of refiguring itself, the music industry around them. And I think it wasn't until the next album released just a couple of years ago, or now three years ago, 2018, that I think they've stumbled upon something and it kind of was the start of resurgence for them creatively. But also I think the world is starting to catch up to the fact that, hey, 30 years later,

Jim Blossoms actually have something, you know, worthwhile as a group. And maybe those records need to be reexamined and the band needs to be reassessed. Totally. I will say I have no chocolate cake. They really doubled down on the jangling. for better or for worse, you have to hats off to them for like, you know, sticking to their guns. I like the song Wave Bye Bye a lot. Shall we hear that before we move on to the 2018 release? Sure.

Okay, this is Wave Bye Bye Bye. I mostly picked it because I like the name. That was Wave Bye Bye Bye or as producer Dylan put it, Mommy's Wave Bye Bye song. Longtime listeners will get the reference the rest of you. Welcome to the show. It got OK reviews. Billboard liked it, mentioned that, you know, that the gin blossoms have primarily showcased the songwriting of members,

Robin Wilson and Jesse Valenzuela, you know, since Doug's death and revealing an uncommon depth to the group's talents. Very nice. So, you know, it did okay. I was going to ask the question of, like, when did they fully lean into their, like,

90s soft alt-rock hero status? But it seems like it was 2012, when they joined the Summerland Tour, the very first inaugural Summerland Tour put on by Everclear. Shout out Everclear, a fantastic band. The lineup being Everclear, Gin Blossoms, lit, Marcy Playground,

and Sugar Ray. Gorgeous. Yeah, they've always, it's funny, they've always even going way back to when they were breaking in the 90s, they were part of a lot of those kinds of package tours. I remember it was like, you know, the DeShawas of the world and the...

Counting blue cars, you say? Counting blue cars, you say? Counting blue. You know, there was like a lot of, they were always, and I think that was the weird thing about radio at that time. It's like you could get these bands that could fill sheds, a lot of these sort of radio making bands that didn't have, you know, that weren't quite as established. But if you put enough of them on the same bill, you could sell out an arena or a or an amphitheater or whatever. So they've kind of historically, that's been there, that's been their thing. But, you know, they've, the funny thing about the boss, they've opened up for some good people too.

I remember asking Bill, the bass player, they opened up shows for Neil Young and Crazy Horse. which you would think of the Jim Blossoms. And I remember I asked, I think at the forum, maybe even in L.A. years ago. And I remember I was like, what was that like? He's like, well, it's good if you like seeing old guys in Flannel stomp around. And I said, well. Who doesn't like that? And that is them now, probably.

I'm going to find out. Can't wait, you guys, San Juan Capistrano, come find me. I will be in the Gin Blossom's audience. Just kidding. Don't come find me. That's weird. But yeah, I think there's, again, like, a band that lasts five years might be one thing. a band that last 25, 30 years now,

your perceptions change over time and the people you play with, like it's funny to think of the gin blossoms in Everclear. I almost think of those, you know, I think by the time Everclear had a hit,

the gin blossoms had already broken up. You know what I mean? Totally. So they're kind of linked in a weird way by the fact that they are these bands that are sort of forever in the cultural stratosphere because they get played on

what is the equivalent of oldies radio, kind of oldies alt radio these days. And they're always, in circulation and, you know, at your better CVS is across the country. Also, just a quick correction. Sparkle and Fade was released in 1995. So there was at least like two years of overlap. A little overlap. A little bit of overlap.

Okay. When we had heroin girl happening at Santa Monica, was bumping on the radio at the same time. My apology. You're right. You're right. You're right. I'm a scholar of the time, this music of the time, an alternative radio. And I will tell you, I remember there was an overlap.

Okay, so they probably, I would assume, between 2012 and 2018, like you said, did spend the time touring the, what did you call it, soft tickets? Yeah, but I think that's changed too a little bit. I think when they first came back, you know, it was a lot more soft ticket shows. I think now they've been doing more, you know, your audience changes and sort of maybe rediscovers you in a weird way. The people that heard you on the radio now have disposable income. They get babysitters because they have kids and they come out and see you play. at a theater or venue of a sit-down venue as opposed to a street fair? People need to not knock this soft ticket.

There is no more gorgeous experience than getting a fucking fried stick of food, whatever the food is that is fried and on a stick, and going and standing outside in the beautiful summer night next to a Ferris wheel, hearing a band that you love play. What's wrong with this? This is a wonderful way to experience live music. Agreed. Nighttime is I'm tired time, you know?

But like a nice, gorgeous 6 p.m. fried food time, perfect. Anyways, you've alluded to a couple of times about mixed reality, which is their most recent album, which came out in 2018. I'll be honest, I hadn't actually heard it. And I was blown away on the stair climber, just living my best life because it's so good. There's so many good songs. Like it starts off so strong.

The very first track. Break, I believe. Yes, the very first track break from, minute one, we are fucking in it. This shit is slapping. Why do you think? I think they, like I say, I think it was a process for them. You know, I've seen this having dealt with and written about a lot of bands who reunite, you know, there's a kind of figuring things out, kind of trying to understand who you are again. I think with the first couple records that Gin Blossoms made, they were doing that. And then the post-reunion with Major Lodge Victory and no chocolate cake,

trying to figure out what it is we're doing here and finding the right sort of compliments. You know, obviously they'd work with John Hampton a long time in this interim. He passed away. They sort of connected with Don Dixon, Southern pop producer had done most famous for R.E.M., but had done a lot of stuff. And they worked basically with Dixon and Mitch Easter, you know, the kind of team that it did the early R&M stuff. And I think they were determined, I think, in part because they were working with those guys working out of their comfort zone a little bit. they recorded at the Fidelitorium studios in North Carolina where those guys work. And I think there was a lot more focus on, hey, let's, you know, we're doing this now.

We are the gin blossoms. We're a continuing entity. We're not just like this sort of periodic roadshow that we do as a paycheck between our other solo projects or whatever. So like if we're going to keep being the gin blossoms, let's refocus and make a great record. And I think that's what they did here. So I think there was a lot more intent and intention behind this record and the songwriting. And again, I think if you look at the credits of this record, the songwriting credits, I mean, there's still a couple outside writers, but it's much more of a band thing.

I think those other two previous records, it's a lot of outside stuff, a lot of people, Jesse was working with separately or Robin was working with separately. And it didn't really feel fully like a Blossom's record in terms of the songs. I think with this one, I think the relationships within the band have kind of been sort of re-solidified. I think you also really nailed it just talking about the production. because I think like one thing I didn't mention about the previous two albums, specifically no chocolate cake, there was something about the production that felt flat to me.

Like it felt two-dimensional in this way, and I didn't really understand why. And maybe because I was listening to them back to back, I was so pleasantly surprised when I got to mixed reality because there was like all of a sudden it was like so much more textural, so much more alive, like a little more sparkly, just like all in the sound. And I think that, like, to your point is like a credit to Don Dixon, as you mentioned,

who had worked with REM, right? Right, the REM and the Smytherines and Tommy Keen, all these people that I think the Jim Blossoms, you know, it's really leaning into that jangle pop, indie pop kind of thing that Dixon and Easter sort of represent. And that the Blossoms did in their own way, but obviously much more of a West Coast. It wasn't a sort of southern or southeastern thing. But I think those guys as producers sort of get what in 2020. one makes the group sort of viable and special and what makes those songs good and how to bring

that stuff out in terms of the production. So, you know, it's a pretty, like I say, it's sort of like peanut butter and chocolate. I mean, you don't necessarily think of Don Dixon and Mitch Easter as being sort of, you know, Gin Blossom's guys. They needed something sort of a different approach, a different perspective on who they were. I think that coupled with the fact that there's a lot more, I think, intent and work that went into the songwriting. It's never going to have the light on it that, you know, congratulations, I'm sorry, did, or even Major Lodge Victory, you know, like probably had more people expect expectation because it's like, oh, here's a new Jim Blossoms album after 10 years. So I think this one sort of slipped under the

radar a little bit. But in terms of a creative thing, I mean, I think you could argue it's after new miserable experience, you know, maybe their best record, and right up there, certainly with congratulations. But in a truer way, I think it's like, okay, this is what this band is now. They've figured it out again after third. years almost and it's kind of interesting to hear it and sort of leaves you wondering, you know, where is it going to go next? And it must be very gratifying for them. I just want to say before we play a song off of this and sort of close out the episode,

I told producer Dylan that I thought she would like this album because to my ears, produced slightly differently, a lot of these songs sound like modern country songs. Like they would kind of fit in the over of modern country. I don't know why. Modern country is essentially pop. So that might be why it just might be like that the Venn diagrams have so collapsed on each other of what jangle pop and modern country kind of are.

But anyways, that was just what I thought. But there's less trucks and less painted on jeans in these songs, fair and fairs. No painted on jeans, no fiddle. But like add a few painted on jeans and a few fiddles and we're like fucking in business, babe. Okay, let's hear break. That was Break, a goddamn gorgeous, beautiful song.

say it. I'll stamp that on there. It deserves it. Bob, before I wrap up this episode, I wanted, you know, kind of hearkening back to my question earlier, bringing it back to present day, like, who's today's Jen Blossom's fan? And I think it is like kind of a healthy mix of like, you know, people who found the band in the 90s and then maybe people have discovered the band throughout the years because, you know, this is one of those bands that their songs really do live on in the CVSs of the world, but also in the... Like, you know, in radio and playlists and places that you would find jangle pop, alt pop, that kind of stuff. So although I will say my coordinator for my other show, who is 27, had literally didn't know what I meant when I said, hey, jealousy.

And I was like, how possible? Time marches on. Well, and I think the other thing that is, has allowed the Blosson to be, you know, rediscovered and maybe reappraised a little bit is the album tracks are quite good. I mean, you know, again, we're really talking about a pretty limited discography in their original thing, original version of one EP, two LPs before these reunion records, which I think, you know, somewhat mixed bag up until this most recent one. But if you dig into the up-and-crumbley EP or the album tracks, you know, the non-singles on New Miserable Experience, or even some of this stuff on congratulations, I'm sorry, there's a lot more sort of substance there than I think somebody would just knows them from the radio would ever assume.

And then once you, if you actually are curious enough to kind of find out a little bit about, the band. I mean, it's a story as sort of complicated and tragic as anything in the sort of big star mythology or the replacement's mythology or anything like that. Totally. After 30 years, you know, new miserable experience stands as a really remarkable record, a record that kind of has withstood time and sort of trends and still is a great pop record with a lot of great pop songs. And I think there's probably more to discover for people who, you know, only know them as the band that did Hey, Jealousy. If they know, Is that at all? I guess if you're 25 or 26, you may not even know that. But there's,

I wouldn't say universes or worlds to discover, but there's a lot of great songs here that I think, particularly the Doug stuff, but even beyond the Doug stuff, has a kind of depth and power and melody and beauty that is unique. Damn. I mean, we almost don't even have to hear from the fans because you are the number one biggest Jen Blossoms fan, but, you know, in keeping with the tradition of Bandsblum, we will. here are some gin blossoms mega fans the gin blossoms are like

undisputably a band that gets written off because of the ubiquity of that hit hey jealousy and that's a great song and you listen that song and you like that song and then you don't hear a lot else from them but if you listen to that first album new miserable experience

you A every song on that album is just as good B you definitely know more of their music than you think you do I was just completely completely floored the first time that I heard those vocals. So here I am listening to this album and the songwriting that Doug Hopkins did. Self-deprecating, depressive about love and loss and hope, inspiration, alcoholism, all things that a 14-year-old me was on the cusp of experiencing myself but hadn't yet.

And it painted this almost artistic picture of what might be to come. I saw them play an acoustic set in the appliances section of the Best Buy. So the lead singer, you know, is shaking his tambourine next to a fridge. And then that night I saw them at a particularly wild concert at the Arizona State Fair, which was kind of this unhinged sort of like homecoming. Like the people that were excited to see them, and I was amongst them, were very, very excited. It was unlike anything else that was out at the time. When everything was just guitar driven and loud, heavy people yelling, screaming,

You know, someone's going to start, they're going to hear a song on Spotify and they're going to go down that rabbit hole and they're going to realize just as I did with albums from the 70s and the early 80s, you know, where you hear little specks on the radio on classic rock radio and you go down the rabbit hole of finding this music and you realize just how good it was and how good it can be. Well, man, I mean, the Best Buy. There was a lot to unpack there, but I'm still, I'm still. still processing, just walking into a Best Buy, and the Gin Blossoms are playing in the electronic section. Or that there's music at a Best Buy, really? I want to say one thing, and then maybe read this quote from Robin that I think is a great way to end the show. I feel like, you know, we talked about the reasons why they broke up and the reasons why it

makes sense that they couldn't keep going. And I think, you know, time, here's me dropping wisdom that nobody has ever heard. Time heals all wounds, babe. But, you know, like having 20 years. between, you know, something that was really devastating to you in your 20s and having the perspective of being in your 40s or 50s, that might be another reason, like, this album is so good, this last album. It's like all this perspective is gained and maybe like, not that this band could ever

be free of what happened, but at least they were able to really process and probably in their own ways assimilate and deal with what happened and come to a new person. perspective on it and then come and meet each other from that place. And this is, again, me just really laying it on thick. But I feel like that is a possible reason this album is so good because it really feels like a cohesive album. Yeah. And I think like I say, the complications of their career and lives were so deep and naughty.

Not naughty Santa Claus. Notty like a big tree. K-N-O-T-T-T-E. why that kind of naughty. But, you know, I really do think like it was so weird everything that happened to them, both, you know, Doug, and their success, you know, completely unexpected, totally unlikely, just that record was dead and it sort of rose and became this success. And then everything happened. And I think, you know, like you say, it's just, it took that long, you know, three albums, 15 years or whatever of touring, for them to get back to the place that almost they were

at, you know, in 1991 when they recorded new miserable experience. And so it's a kind of interesting bookend here almost 30 years later, or, you know, 25 years later or whatever when I was released, that, that they've come to that place. But yeah, I think that's a very acute assessment of who and what this band is. And I think in a, just in a funny way, I find them in the ether a lot more. I find people on, you know, in social media, you kind of get a sense of people's opinions, do you? But, you know what I mean? Like every time now when you see the gin Blossons mentioned, there's always a defender or somebody saying, you know, like that record is. It's me. It's me. Literally, I have an alert set on Twitter. And I'm like, what did you say? Take it fucking back.

Also, the Dinnbossoms are on Twitter and they're quite often. Yeah, but you know, like just my thing, like I'm the replacements guy. And so people would assume like, oh, you don't like the gym loss. I was like, no, actually, I have kind of a history with them. And I do like him. And it's like from that vantage point, I see so many people like getting, you know, what Dave DiMartino said in that cream piece. They're much closer to Big Star than they are to third eye blind, I would argue. And I think people are kind of recognizing that, both in terms of the music and the story and everything that sort of went with it. And so I think they're having their, I don't know if we're in a full scale blossom's asance, but we're getting close to, you know, next year. Hey, jellisance, if you will. Maybe a hey jellisance.

Yeah, 30 year anniversary next year of the miserable experience. And they're going to play that record, I think, in its entirety and do that. you know, maybe the stars are lining up for them. Sorry, no bands playing episodes next year. This is the quote I wanted to read that Robin gave the Cleveland scene in 2018. He said, the early days were really fun.

They're exactly the sort of experience you should have is a 23-year-old in a rock band. We were playing four and five nights a week in our hometown and driving all over the Southwest. It was the real band experience. For the first few years, Doug and I were inseparable. We'd go riding skateboards and go to the water park. We always drove together in the car to Flagstaff, Tucson, and Los Angeles.

We were together a lot. I have really cool memories from those days, and we had no real concept of where this was headed. There was no possible way to imagine that we would be in our 50s and still be together as a group. It was just about being the best band in Arizona and trying to live up to our heroes like REM and the replacements. It was a very organic, real rock experience. Gorgeous. Beautiful. Beautiful.

Well, Bob, thank you so, so much. for coming on to talk about gin blossoms. I couldn't have thought of a better person. You are so, so informed, and you knew so much, and you, you know, more importantly, I think, treated this band with the seriousness that they deserve as they are incredible songwriters and, like, they should be hailed as such.

I'm going to pick the last song. Please do. Spoiler alert. Because we never played the real Allison Road. And that is, that's canon. That's gin bosom's canon. Thanks to Bob. Come back next week for a new episode of Bandsplain.

This is Allison Road. If you liked what you heard today, subscribe for more episodes of Bansplaine, only on Spotify. Our guest today was Bob Mayer. Follow him on Twitter at B-O-B-M-E-H-R and pick up his book, Trouble Boys, The True Story of the Replacements, Anywhere Fine Books are sold. Huge, huge things to the Gin Blossoms mega fans you heard on this. episode. Nato Coles and Sonia Mews, Jason Martinoff, Kyle Wade, and Polly Breed. Bansplain is a Spotify original show. This episode was produced by The Hay to My Jealousy,

producer Dylan, aka Dylan Tupper Rupert, and edited by Nico Palela, with help from Casey Simonson and Tari Miller. Executive producers for Bansplaine are Gina Delvac and me, Yossi Salon. Our gorgeous and catchy theme song was composed and performed by Bethany Cozentino and Jennifer Claven and graciously recorded by Carlos de la Garza in Los Angeles, California. Special thanks to Philippe Ghermino, Robert Adler, Leah Edwards, David McDonough, Dana Meyerson, Jessica Hopper, and Tuna Fish. There's no new episodes of Bansplaine for a couple of weeks. We're taking a break for the holidays, but come back January 13th for a new episode of Bansplaine,

only on Spotify. Are you really not doing shows next year? No, I was lying. I just meant that I was going to follow which in Blossoms on tour. and red hot chili peppers. And there's someone else during that I just have to quit my job.