Bandsplain - Jawbreaker with Leor Galil

Episode Date: May 13, 2021

Jawbreaker is one of those highly mythologized bands, the kind that feel perfectly cast in the amber of cult band-om. Yasi dissects the lore, the albums, the break-up, and the ahead-of-their-time songwriting with Jawbreaker oral historian Leor Galil, featuring a very special guest appearance by Dear You producer Rob Cavallo. Follow Leor Galil on Twitter at @imLeor and find his collection of music writing, “Best of Leor Galil,” at store.chicagoreader.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's with this band anyway? I don't get it. Can you please explain? Wait, like, Bansplaine? Hello, this is Bandsplane, and I am your host, Yossi Salick. This is a show where we bring on smart writers to talk to me, a dumb but hot podcaster, about cult bands and iconic artists. Today's episode is about Jawbreaker. If you've never heard Jawbreaker, you'll never heard Jawbreaker,

you are not punk and I am telling everyone. Here's what Jawbreaker sounds like. Our guest today is music writer, Lior Galeel, of the storied Chicago Reader. Welcome to the show, Leor. Thanks for having me. It's really nice to be here. Great. What if we were like, it's not nice to be here and I'm doing it against my will? I don't think anyone talks about Jawbreaker against their will.

I'm sure there's bands that people do talk about against their will, but like anyone who wants to talk about Jawbreaker, like I think really wants to talk about Jobbreaker. Would you agree? Oh, absolutely. I don't think it's a band that you have to. I think it's a band that you have to tell people to stop talking about after a while. It's really easy to get wrapped up in what they do. Leor, you, besides being a music critic of the Story of Chicago Reader, you also wrote a definitive oral history of

24-hour revenge therapy, is that right? That's correct. Yeah, Jawbreaker's third album. For the Pitchfork Review, the defunct quarterly that Pitchfork used to make, which is... RIP print media. Yeah. It is, I mean, I still have a few copies. It is beautiful to hold.

Yeah, it was like 17,000 words, down from 31,000 words. A lot of detail about the scene in the Bay Area that Jawbreaker kind of emerged from and also informed in the early 90s and just really molecular details about the recording process with Steve Albini and Billy Anderson, Albini in Chicago, Anderson, and the Bay Area for some tie-ups there. But yeah, that was a thing that came out around 2014 and when the band reunited in 2017, Pitchfork put it online. So you could find a slightly abridged version of it online. Yeah, use your Google.

So, Learer, why don't we start with an off-the-top bio of Jobbreaker? Like, where are they from? What's their deal? Sure. Jobbreaker is sort of from everywhere. Blake Schwarzenbach, who is the frontman and Adam Fowler, who's the drummer, their childhood friends from California, they went to NYU together, and they took out an ad for a bass player, which is how they found Chris Ballermeister. Eventually, they moved to LA around 86, 87, where they hooked up with John Liu, who was a childhood friend of Adams to make rise. That didn't work out once Blake wrote, shield your eyes, which ended up coming out on Bivouac. So Jawbreaker emerged from that. They put out four records.

Their fourth and final record, Dear You, came out on DGC. It was not loved by the punk community that they came from because they were seen as selling. out largely because they were seen as sort of the voice of the punk scene at a time when politics was really so crucial to how the scene operated. And any move was bandied about and debated publicly. So signing to a major label after Green Day broke out in 1994 with Duky was a really bad thing at the time. Yeah. That was before it was okay to sell out. That was before everyone just wholeheartedly accepted selling out. And Jawbreaker is a band whose music just seems to, I mean, I didn't grow up.

I wasn't in my 20s in 1994 and 1995. I wasn't a part of the scene in the same way that Jawbreaker was or anyone in the Bay Area at that time was. But the music that they captured exemplified what it means to be part of the community, I think still to the stay, but specifically during that era in that place when the Bay Area, was everything to punk internationally. So them going to a major label and cleaning up their sound a little bit really ticked off a lot of people. Nobody liked it. Well, I like it now.

A lot of people like the album now after, you know, 20 years of being able to kind of look at your loose. It's great. It's great. Yeah. Makes you wonder what would have happened if they didn't break up. But it seems like that was also something that was going to happen eventually anyway. and the reception to dear you both from the label and from fans kind of sped up the process of their demise. Yeah, I don't know about you, but I like it when bands break up early because they sort of like keep their history and their legend, like crystallized in an amber, like a fossil of gorgeous beauty instead of like going on to become embarrassing, which is a fate many bands before. It's also nice when Bancena realized that, you know, oh, we did everything that we could do together at this moment.

It's good to know when to stop. Yeah. It was all I'm saying. A fun fact about Jawbreaker is that if I remember correctly, Blake and Adam met at an L.A. private school, which I think is just a cute tidbit. A little tid for the heads. Which also produced like so many artists from that era. So many punk and underground artists kind of went on to, you know, make an impression. Like who out?

I mean, I don't remember if Adam's older sister, Kembra, went there. Oh, yeah. That's the thing we always forget about that Adam's sister is Kembra Fowler of the voluptuous horror of Karen Black. Legend, icon. Total legend. So cool. Okay. So Jawbreaker, sort of from all over the place.

punk legends, sellout kings. Where should we start musically? Musically, the first song on Unfund, their 1990 album, Want, is always a great introduction, I think, especially if you're into pop punk, which I think Jawbreaker is kind of a definitive pop punk band. Let's hear Want by Jawbreaker. You're listening to a music.

and talk episode where full songs and talk segments come together in gorgeous harmony, only on Spotify. Guess what? You too can create your own music and talk show for free with Anchor, Spotify's podcasting platform. Get started at anchor.fm slash music and talk. That's anchor.fm slash music and talk. Okay, that was Want by Jobbreaker off their first album, Unfund. Um, to me, that's a perfect love song. So if you want to know what I'm like, that will tell you. I think this is a really good song to start with. I know you're the expert, but I just want to say two things about it. One is that I think if you haven't heard Jawbreaker, you're immediately struck by Blake Schwarton Box's kind of unique singing voice, which is, you know, I think one of the most central parts of

jawbreaker because no one really saying like that. And secondly, that he's like a literal poet. Like, you know, those lyrics are, you know, they're kind of like light years beyond a lot of, for sure, pop punk, but like punk in general. I mean, you still let rumors do my work. They got around real well. Now they only hurt. It's a liar's quirk. Like these are like really beautiful, beautiful lyrics. Also, I must say, just for the record, my favorite thing in songs, and it happens a lot, actually, is when people say, I'm calling out your name or I call out your name. No one says it in real life, but it makes its way into so many songs, and I love it. That's perfect. I mean, yeah, the kind of grit that Blake exemplifies both as a singer and as a writer is so evident in just a few minutes.

and coming out of a period where hardcore was still, even after it kind of collapsed in the mid-80s, still kind of the rule that people followed. And there was a sort of declamatory aspect to a lot of punk. You will do this, I do this, you do this, I do this, to have Blake kind of expand beyond that and create a language that you can live in and that kind of reflects your feelings.

That's ambiguous enough to feel like he is telling. your story is really powerful. Yeah, there's a lot of yearning in this song. Not unlike the classic David Matthews band song crash into me. Yeah, that's right. I did draw that parallel. And I hear it. I never thought of that before.

You're wrong. Also, huge shouts to the baseline of this song, because it is fire. Chris is one of the best bass players in punk, if not, you know, rock music. He is such an innovative and clean and driving bass player. There's so much energy that that band gets specifically from him. And his sense of melodies is really what helps make a lot of these job breakers songs pop. Okay. So let's talk about unfun.

You know, where did they record this band? Who did they record it with? Were they in San Francisco yet? They were still living in L.A. at the time. Okay. This is right before they re-enfondon. relocated to San Francisco. They recorded two days in Valencia. It feels it feels cobbled together in a lot of ways. As much as I enjoy it, it's also my least favorite jawbreaker album.

Wow. Shots fired. Which is also, I mean, that's also just like, you know, this is my least favorite masterpiece. Like, you know, it's not a band that I have a lot. Yeah. I don't, I don't dislike a lot of what they do. Also, shout out to the guy on Twitter who, much in this vein, tweeted at me to let me know the Gougu Dolls episode of Bandsplain was the least awesome. He didn't say it wasn't awesome. He just said it's least awesome, which is I'm just drawing a parallel to how you feel about the first Jawbreaker album. Exactly. It's still a masterpiece. Exactly. Just like the Gougu dolls episode of this program. Yes. Please continue, Lear. You know, to me, this is a band that's still figuring out what they're trying to do. They had

reformed after being a four piece. They were still kind of a unit that was working together. And the, you know, the last Jawbreaker album in particular is very much like a Blake project. And he took over more of the songwriting duties with 24-hour revenge therapy. But with this and with the follow-up, Bivouac, it's still much more of a collaborative effort. And you could see kind of the gears turning into them figuring out what the magic that they hold in their hands is really capable of. Lear, why do you think they left L.A.? The punk scene had kind of petered out to a certain extent. It, you know, obviously like bad religion was still going, but a lot of the, a lot of the kind of DIY stuff wasn't really around.

There was, you know, there was a club. I believe the Jabberjaw is what it's called. Oh, the Jabber Jha, yeah. Yeah, but if you were a new punk band, you had to do pay to play. Like, that's jawbreakers, if they wanted to do a show, like, that wasn't at the Jabber Jha. They didn't really have any ends. It wasn't a welcoming place, especially for a band that, again, largely formed elsewhere. rerouted and was trying to find its place in a large city like LA. The Bay Area was full of,

you know, misfits from all over the country who moved there, in part to specifically participate in this community where you had, you know, a volunteer run record store in the epicenter where you had all these punk mail order places where you had more than records. Gilman Street. Yeah, all of it. There was a huge infrastructure that, you know, was at the same time it was created in a lot of part by Tim Yonahan at maximum rock and roll and by the maximum rock and roll crew, but with the intention that the community would be responsible for making it work. So as much as maximum rock and roll is kind of this, this totem in punk in general and specifically

in the Bay Area, because you could see its influence everywhere, there's a sense that the kids had a say in the way that the culture ran and that the culture actually had a place, had a life beyond just a club. Did Jobbreaker have a connection with maximum rock and roll? With this first album? Like, how was it received in general? I mean, they were almost immediately a, you know,

a phenomenon in underground punk to the degree that there were bands that were already ripping them off. Nanab brothers who would end up creating sinker and then later Indian summer in Oakland, their first band was a jawbreaker rip-off. You know, it was by their own omission, you could find a lot of ads in maximum rocker roll and other zines that describe their first band, which I believe was also called Jabberjaw as, you know, like Jawbreaker.

You know, Jawbreaker almost immediately became shorthand for a very specific style of gritty pop punk that few other bands were really able to exemplify at the time, which is saying something. Do you have any insight into, like, what was it about the members of the band, like, primarily the songwriting that, like, lent itself to making pop? Like, was that a conscious choice to make pop punk? Or was it just kind of, like, the only punk they were able to make? I don't mean able, like, they weren't capable of anything more. But, like, that was sort of, like, the, you know, alchemy of the members that created this kind of punk.

It seems much more of a reflection of who they were surrounding themselves with. and who they were at home with as it was their, you know, their own tastes and interests. I mean, with 24-hour revenge therapy, Blake told me how he was trying to channel Doug Marsh when he was when Doug was in tree people. You know, he was listening to a lot of tree people. Yeah. But they were surrounded by bands that were, you know, toying with pop punk and taking in different directions.

Like who? They did split with Crimpshrine. Oh, yes. Famed famous of Crimpshine. Huge cult band in, you know, an underground punk at the time. They were doing something that, you know, Green Day would end up taking, making it. Adopting. Taking it to a different place.

Exactly. And transforming the culture with very much kind of the rubrics that Crimpshrine made. And, you know, Crimpshrine put out a split with Jawbreaker. At the beginning, Jawbreaker was cranking out seven inches like no other. And then they focused more on albums. Let's hear a song off the next album. Yeah. I think the next song we should go to is Shield Your Eyes, which is actually the first song that Blake wrote before kind of taking over as frontman for the band that became Jobbreaker.

It was like an old song that resurfaced when they were making their second album. Exactly. Okay. Let's hear it. Okay. That was Shield Your Eyes by Jawbreaker off Vivouac. That album came out in, I think, 1992. It did, yeah.

I think we have to talk about the E word now. You know what it is. Oh, Emo. That's right. Yeah. That's right. What side of the fence do you stand on is Jawbreaker Emo? And if so, why or why not?

I think it's, you can't argue with the fact that they absolutely influenced emo and kind of the co-mingling of Pop Punk and Emo in, you know, a few years after their breakup. It's a direct result of Jawbreaker's influence. I think including them in the narrative. of emo kind of expands the basic idea of what it is and what it can be. And I like that because emo is such a strange, constantly shifting concept and the more that you can push back against it being this very small linear thing. I think the greater benefit for all the bands that are tagged with it. So I'm still on the fence about calling them emo specifically. To me, they are a punk band.

They are the ideal punk band, but as far as their relationship to it, it's, you know, it's unquestionable that they're important to emo as a concept. I just want to point out that there is a website called is this bandemo.com, and you can type in bands, and I typed in Jobbreaker, and it said Jobbreaker is email. Well, I think that's a good way for us to introduce, like, the members of the band and, like, what they contribute, because I don't think it would be wrong to say a lot of that emotion comes from Blake Schwarzenbach. I think there's also part of what ended up breaking up the band was just personal conflict.

Right. And part of, I think, what allowed this band to do so well is the chemistry between the members and kind of the tension that they would bring to their songs. All of them are, you know, kind of not hard-in-sleeve emotional, but they, They play like they mean it. Everything that you hear on there just feels like they gave every, every ounce of their being to this music, however much it took out of them and took away from them.

Because it, you know, it was rough going for them by the end. Can you talk a little bit about, like, each member and, like, their vibe? Sure. Adam is, like, the friendliest person in, I think, in probably any punk band that I've met. He's just like a caring dad. He brought his daughter to ride fest and he was out on the crowd watching his sister perform on the small stage, which I wish, you know, Kemper Fowler had been on the big stage and just. In a better world.

Totally. In a better world. Exactly. Yeah. He's jawbreaker's biggest fan as much as he's a member of that band. He loves that, you know, he's given so much of his life to it. And I think it really comes through in his work. His drumming is fantastic.

He doesn't get talked about nearly as much as he should, but I would also argue that about Chris, who pursued academia through a PhD program in, I believe, I forget what specific type of medieval history he was studying. But he and his wife moved to Germany, I want to say. So he could pursue his degree. They're all, all these guys are sharp as a tech. Yeah, they're a very intelligent band. Yes. Jason White from Pennad Gunpowder and, you know, is part of Green Day's live band. You know, he's as much of a member as anyone else in that band, said that when I was talking

him about Job Breakers, he was just like, we didn't, they were a mysterious test. They were like college guys. They went to college. You know, they're like, they're book smart in a way that wasn't really represented in the scene at the time. Totally. Yeah, all those guys are, are disarmingly smart and forthright. Chris keeps himself a little bit more, I noticed.

But, yeah, he's tatted up and really. least, you know, uh, sweet guy. And Blake, uh, you know, you can make an entire podcast about Blake. Um, clearly, you know, people have, have lived through his lyrics and unpack them like, it's a mystery. It's, uh, he is one of the most interesting frontmen in rock history in the past, you know, a few decades. Uh, and that goes beyond his lyricism and, and kind of the, the grit in his voice. I think what he's able to do as a person leading this band is really sell you on this idea that this is more than just a record and more than a song, that it is a reflection of what it means to be alive and to express yourself through what a lot of people might consider as a very limited form of music. But he, more than anyone, really shows how deep and wide punk can be. What do you think are some of their shared sensibilities?

And on the flip side, what do you think are some of their places that they didn't align or see I die? That's tough. I mean, I think they all. This is a hard hitting podcast. Yeah. Tough questions. They all, all of them seem interested in melody first. The, you know, they are pop as much as punk.

And that comes through so clearly even when the recordings are gross and kind of broken down. You know, unfung is not to knock it. I think it's part of its strengths. It sounds like it was made in a garage on, you know, cheap equipment, which... Yeah, here at Bansplan, we love that. Yeah, yeah. And I love that too, but it's still, it's amazing just on want, specifically. I keep going back to that song, how immediate it hits.

and how sweet it is beneath all that grit. And that becomes more and more evident as the band grew. And that seems to be a shared sensibility among them, especially because they, you know, again, they were writing this stuff together that they were a unit as much as you possibly could be, at least for the first couple records. And still a little bit on the third record. I think it's also interesting and like how may be kind of important to point out that this is 1992, which means growing up.

is also emerged, emerged, not even emerging, it's like happening. And you can kind of, I mean, it's famously, Nirvana was huge fans of Jawbreaker. They took them on tour, I believe. Is that right? Yeah, the In Utero Tour, they filled it in for, I think it was the wipers. They did a string of dates with Nirvana shortly before 24-hour revenge therapy came out. And Kurt, on a couple of those dates, actually requested that Jawbreaker played the title track for Bivouac. Apparently, that was his favorite. Nirvana was interested in the bands that they brought on tour and certainly in Jawbreaker.

Well, I think I guess what I was, like, getting at is, like, you can really hear, you can really hear how the same elements mixed together differently produced those two bands. you know, like they do have, you know, like Kurt Cobain is a pop writer as well, like it's very clearly and obviously a lot of emotion there and a deep, you know, punk respect. But it just, it's different, you know, the elements mixed differently and the music is different. But they're, you know, I would argue they're coming from the same place. Absolutely. And from different regions. Like you wonder if what would have happened if Jobbreaker was in Seattle, you know, instead of the Bay Area. Yeah, or Nirvana was in L.A. Right.

Should we hear Bivouac? Kurt Cobain's fave? Yeah, let's do it. Okay, that was Bivowack by Jawbreaker off the album of the same name. That album only has nine songs, but is one hour long, owing in large part to that song being 10 minutes long. I think you could really, it's pretty obvious why that was Kurt Cobain's favorite song. Like, it's really stretching to say that's even a punk song, you know? Right. And I think it really showed how much more jawbreaker was capable of.

Totally. I also wonder if Kurt was trolling them, asking them to play a 10-minute song in their 30-minute set. That is really funny, actually. So Bivouac was recorded. That was the first album they recorded after relocating to San Francisco. They had already broken up once, which I think we didn't mention. after like a pretty like a particularly harrowing first or second tour or something that I think you know maybe they weren't prepared for how

hard it is to tour as a baby band with no money. Right. With a conal Christ of all bands. Yes. Yeah. But you know, Akano Christ having relocated to the Bay Area from Little Rock, I wonder how much of their friendship and relationship helped contribute to their deep connection with other punks in the Bay Area before they even move there. A little, I would imagine, at least.

But yeah, the fact that that tour briefly broke them up and they regrouped in San Francisco, helped kind of build them up into the band that they became, made them seem more rooted in the Bay Area than time-wise they were. Yeah. And they lived in the mission. I mean, I don't, again, for the youth listening to this show, San Francisco was a very different place. And it was also really gritty. for lack of a better word. Extremely great.

Yeah. At one point, these guys were living in a fan in the Bay Area after a tour because their housing was just taken from under them. But yeah, you could live on next to nothing in the Bay Area. It's why all these punk, you know, volunteer-run punk places were able to survive on Valencia Street, you know, in the heart of that place. It's because it was inexpensive, which is, yeah, it feels like another universe. at this point. Now Bivowack is out and they were touring kind of more extensively, right? Like they were pretty popular by this point. Right.

They, I mean, they were getting at the point where they could not really, not like live, live off of their music, but it was their source of income. Like Blake, prior to all three of them really devoting themselves to the band full-time, Blake was a librarian. Chris was a toyologist, if I recall. He studied toys. He worked at like a toy shop. And Adam worked at a movie store, you know, like a movie rental place.

And continue to do that for a while afterwards. Classic 90s jobs. Yeah. And, you know, a bunch of their friends all worked at the call center that employed all of the punks that ended up inspiring. Sorry to bother you. Oh, God, amazing. Because boots also worked there. But, yeah, you know, you could live on X-N-N-N-N-Nothing.

And by the time that Bivouac came out and was hit locally and Jawbreaker were touring nonstop, you know, they were able to transition into being a full-time band in a way that few punks were able to transcend that. Who was the fan base? Like, what was the makeup of the fan base? The fan base were other people like that, people who were involved in punk who were going to shows, who were, you know, writing scenes who were booking the shows, were working at bars who were dedicating themselves to the art and working shit job to make up for it. Totally.

This was passing the tape, passing the zine era. Exactly. This was not the internet. This was you're going to word of mouth yourself around the country and then, you know, eventually overseas, but that took a bit longer. And this was a level of, you know, renowned within the national and international scene that by the time they recorded 24-hour revenge therapy, cassette copies began circulating months before

it came out. They had a cult that only got bigger after their third record, but they were kind of on the edge at that point. They did tour this album.

I think they went to Europe because there is like kind of like a famous story, right? Yeah. We haven't talked about that Blake sings like this and it's hard. Like I don't think it was like

like it's just how he sings. Like it took effort to sing this way. And if I remember correctly, they went to Europe and he was having a lot of pain and was like really sick and was having trouble singing. Didn't they ask the roadie to fill in and sing? We couldn't remember the words. On their tour to Europe, Blake had developed a polyp on his vocal cords. Right. And on their way to get to Europe, they decided to fly from the East Coast because it was.

cheaper so they tour their way to the east coast and it was in the middle of that tour that Blake was just like I can't say like I can't do this right so they had rural Reyes their their roadie kind of fill in for Blake along the way and they flew to Europe and in Dublin on stage Blake was spitting up blood like hacking up blood sick in the middle of the set so he flew to London right after that show and ended up getting throat surgery that, I mean, that that, that, that, that polyp could have, if I'm remembering correctly, it could have been life ending. It certainly could, would have ended his singing career, you know, his ability to sing. Yeah. I vaguely remember that the stakes were quite high from the Jawbreaker documentary, which is excellent if you haven't seen it.

It's a great documentary, too, because it captures this moment at which Jobbreaker's cult is so massive after their breakup and they aren't communicate. Like, you know, Chris doesn't want to be in the same room as Blake. Like the animosity between those two is still as strong as it was when they broke up. And it's interesting to see the way that they thaw to each other because they're, you know, I think it's evident how much they mean to each other as much as they were meeting to each other. Totally. And it does come through in that documentary really, really beautifully.

It's a complex, it's a wonderfully complex portrait. All right. So they have built up this cult following with their relentless and harrowing touring. And they come back to the Bay. And now it's time for many people's favorite album, 24-hour revenge therapy. Yes. It's my favorite album, certainly. Do you know, like, how Steve Albini got involved? Because I think that's obviously, like, a big part of this album and the lore of this album and the sound of this album and, like, the whole. you know, kid and caboodle. Adam looked him up and called him up and Steve answered, and they scheduled a date for the band to go to Chicago and record this. Yeah.

Famously, Steve Albini will record anyone's album. I think he says that in the documentary, that he's simply just available for hire. And if I remember correctly in the documentary, he confuses them with jawbox. Yes. Which is an exquisite moment. That was a period where electrical audio, he had just been. brought in a whole lot of new equipment. And in order to cover the costs of expanding his studio, he was just booking bands nonstop.

There were no days off. It was band a band, band, a band, so, you know, Jobbreaker was one of many acts. And they just happened to be who they are. Like his memories of those sessions are blurred together with others. But he does. When I spoke to Steve, he does remember. like he's able to he was able to understand what makes that band special and remember the character of who they are as a you know as a unit yes so this was in 1993 that they worked with steve albany just going to point out it was in fact after he had already worked with the queen the goddess p.J harvey i'm not saying it's related but it's not not related and it was you know a handful of months before job breaker joined nirvana on tour well nirvana also so famously hired Steve Albini because of PJ Harvey.

Right. So I'm just saying this probably all roots back to PJ Harvey. We can thank her for 24-hour revenge therapy. Is there a song off 24-hour revenge therapy that you feel is like, okay, we fucking did it, Joe. We got Steve Albini together with the glorious magic of jawbreaker, and we have made a smash, a banger, a bop. Boxcar. That's right. That's the correct answer and the only acceptable one for that question. Let's hear box car off 24 hour revenge therapy. That was box car by Jawbreaker off 24 hour revenge therapy. I want to point out that producer Dylan has messaged me to say, my jawbreaker phase is starting right now, 1112 a.m. on 422 2021. So Bansplan is working while it's being recorded. We did it, Joe. This is a fucking. smash. This song is undeniably amazing. Also, I need to point out that you don't know what I'm all

about killing cops and reading Kerouac. Like, what's hotter than that? Nothing. Like, that should be a like literally slap that on a dating profile, babe. And the girls will line up. The punk girls will line up. What's this song about Leo? Let's tell the people. It's what it means to exist in a punk community. It's very much a reflection and rejection and reaction to the community. community that Jobbreaker came from. And it couldn't have been written from any other place and by anyone else. And under the specific circumstances that created that song, Blake wrote the very beginning of that on the side of the road in France, after, you know, during their tour after his throat

surgery, where he was just feeling the intensity of their home in a place so far away from it. So it's this sense of like being unable to escape where the place that's the place that's the that you love and hate at the same time is so crucial that it's a perfect song in that also trying to describe it just doesn't quite get at what makes it so special. Yeah. And it still has this power and shows what it means to be a part of a community and disagree with people and understand what is wrong and good about it at the same time too.

There's an optimism to it as much as it is, you know, kind of a retort to the rules of the scene. Yeah. There is this sense that I'm part of this, that I'm here to participate and make it better my way. Totally. Part of any scene was rules, even punk, especially punk. Like, punk was maybe one of the most rule-bound scenes of all. And like, we talked about this a bit on the Blink 12 episode. which was that like this was a different time where like you were in one scene and you were not

allowed to have other interests you weren't allowed to like we were saying break the rules um i mean kids don't say even they don't even say poser anymore like that shit is gone like selling out is gone poser is gone like everything gets like a free for all now and i think again, we can make the argument that it's probably because of the internet, but this wasn't that. You know, this was, and also, like, I think it's kind of interesting that this is even prior to, like, their real sellout moment. I have the air quotes. I don't believe in selling out.

But, you know, you're not punk and I'm telling everyone. And he's like, I'm telling on myself, I'm not punk, fuck you. Like, if that's what being punk is. It's also one of those things where if box card didn't come out, would people have hated them for signing to a major? Like it's as much as it is a reaction to the rule-bound nature of punk, it sort of paints them as these iconic class who aren't going to do what people are going to tell them. But at the same time, they are exemplifying the very best nature of punk. And so when you see the best of your community, do something that is at the time the worst taboo that you can pull, of course people are going to. to come out. So part of me is just like, yeah, if box garden was never written, would

what the reaction had been quite as intense as it was. A fun fact about this album, that the album's production apparently on the liner notes is credited to a Steve Albini's cat whose name was Fluss. Fluss, yeah. And you know, I love cats. Studio Cat. I love cat related mythology in music, or in general. I just love cats. It's for the record. I believe Fluss died around the time that Strom Thurman did because in Albini's tribute to Fluss, he had this whole piece about how Fluss is better than Strom Thurman. Maybe Floss died of a broken heart because Trom Thurman left the world. We can't know the inner nature of cats. Some of them are Republicans. Okay, so 24-hour revenge therapy is big. Like the cult is only growing. It's only getting bigger. And it's big in part because not even a week before

Duky dropped. Like Green Day came out with Duky and that changed everything for punk and specifically in the Bay Area. It changed everything. What was the relationship between Jawbreaker and Green Day? Like did they have a relationship? Do they play shows together? Were they friends? They were friendly. I mean, they both contributed to this community. They were aware of each other. It's not to say that they were the closest of friends at all. You know, one of Adam's closest friends was, um, Lance Hahn of J. Church. It was a huge community. But at the same time, it was a place where all of these overlapping friendships brought everyone together, regardless of whether or not they wanted to. So there are obviously connections there. And, you know, it seems like Billy in particular had an admiration for them. And, you know, Jason White was more than aware of them. Like, the nature of that connection seems to be much more of a curiosity in retrospect than at the moment.

Totally. Tangentially related, since we're talking about punk intellectuals of the Bay Area, Jesse Michaels of Operation Ivy was also a storied intellectual and has since written several books. Yeah, yeah. I just want to speak. And Aaron Cometbus of who was in a band with Jesse for a minute. Aaron who also was in a band with Blake for a minute. You know, these connections don't stop the minute the bands do. Totally. Okay. So now it's 1993 and we are opening for Nirvana. I don't even think that the album had come out when they were asked to open for Nirvana. Is that right?

That's correct. Yeah. They'd been waiting for months at that point for the album to come out. That album, they would tour with Nirvana the fall and the album would come out in February 94. Nirvana was massive at this. Like, there's no way. to overstate how they were the biggest band in the world at this time, I would say. Like, this is the in utero tour. So, you know, never mind has already come out. And like, they were huge. They were huge in reacting to their hugeness with bookings like Jawbreaker. And the wipers.

Amazing. Imagine, like, the fans that were like, I love heart-shaped box. And then they just show up and the wipers are like opening. Would have loved to see some of those faces. Would have loved to be in the room, personally. but I was 11 years old and not allowed to go to Nirvana shows. Okay. The fans also didn't like that they went on tour with Nirvana.

Is that true? That is correct, yeah. And that was kind of a flare-up of the rules of punk that, you know, the band was just sort of like, what, I don't get why this is a big deal. Slash, they totally knew that people were going to react negatively with, you know, with them touring with the largest band in the world, who was on a major label. And part of that is also just the fear that they would be signed to a major label. And that tour is where they met Mark Cates, who would eventually sign them to a major label.

We talked about this a little earlier when we were talking about the dynamic of the band, but was Jawbreaker an ambitious band? It sounds like yes and no, right? Like Adam, like you're saying, the biggest fan of the band and maybe the engine that kept pushing it forward, right? But I don't know about the rest of the band. Like I don't, Chris, maybe not so much. maybe a little more on the side of keeping it punk? I think they are very much, you know, this is one of those ways that they're part of a punk community and that like this was an expression of theirs.

They were going to take it to the end, whatever that meant, but they didn't have any compunction about signing to a major if it meant that they were able to extend the lifespan of this. You know, they were aware that there were limitations to what they could do. And if it meant having a little more. life in this thing that they build together, why not take it? That's true. I mean, it's kind of like a fucking, you know, like it's an insane thing of your fans to ask of

you. Please keep making music for me, but do not dare make any money so that you may live comfortably because I don't want you to do that. Right. If memory serves, it was Christy Cole Court who worked for Lookout UK, who, who told me about having a Sam I am, a shirt that said like Sam I am will only play for $500, fuck them, along those lines, you know, screw this band for wanting to get paid for their labor, essentially. And isn't that like a strange thing that that was a, that was not only a sentiment,

but somebody went ahead and put that on a shirt and sold it to other people or gave it to other people. Yeah. I mean, but like this was sort of inevitable, you know, like they, were really popular. Like you said, Green Day had signed to a major and was blowing up. Jawbox was also signed to a major, which history does not remember Jobbox as much as it remembers Green Day, but Jobbox was a great band. And Jawbox not only toured with Jawbreaker, but toured with Jawbreaker as Jarbreaker was considering signing to a major and helped tell them what it was like to be on a major. I think that they contributed to the decision that Jawbreaker eventually made. It's funny how like during every like time period in music, one word seems to make its way into like every corner and aspect in here its jaw. And then later like in the 2000s it was like wolf. I remember like every band was like black wolf, wolf mother wolf eyes. That's just a bit of an aside. How do you feel the band internally was dealing with signing to a major? You know, because they did sign to a DGC,

David Geffen, shout out David Geffen, for like a million dollars, like the classic one million dollar deal. What was the vibe within the band? It seemed to be very much a thing of like, well, this is it. It's either this or we break up because we can't continue to function the way we are. They were playing, you know, after 24-hour revenge therapy came out. They were playing clubs to 500-person capacities, you know. They were getting big, but only in a way that that sort of the scene as it was built at that point allowed them to be.

They couldn't quite cross the threshold that would allow them to make the kind of creative decisions that they wanted to make or really survive as a touring band at that point. So talking to all the members, it was very much like this is kind of the only way forward or we break up. And there was also this hint of like, yeah, we know, we know that people are not going to react well, but we're going to do it anyway because like when else are we going to get this opportunity? Which is such a jawbreaker sentiment, like doing the thing that you know is going to end up hurting. But just to see what happens and something good could come out of it. Totally. Well, okay, let's play another song off 24-hour revenge therapy that you think shows, yeah, this band is going to blow up. You know, like, this is a band, like, that the major labels are going to listen to this and be like, we have to have you.

Like, what do you think is maybe one of the songs besides Boxcar that really, like, sends that message? I think Boat, the first song, it is, I mean, it's a perfect pop punk song. It is, it is driving. It is where Chris really shows off his sensibility and shines in more than a lot of their other songs. And it is so imaginative and forceful. And if, I mean, if there's any Jawbreaker song that is reminiscent of pop punk and that era of Pop Punk and Green Day anyway, it's this one. And it's the one that's finding optimism in a boat that isn't living up to its full potential, which is really, really funny. This is The Boat Dreams from the Hill.

That was The Boat Dreams from the Hill by Dawbreaker. off 24-hour revenge therapy. That title sort of leaves no room for a debate on the emo question, and also that these songs are poems. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, it's so melancholic and urnsome, just right, right on its face. We've all felt like a beat-up, fucked up boat at one time or another in our lives. Right.

And Jawbreaker is the band to sound like that. Before we move on to Dear You, I do want to selfishly hear one more song off of 24-hour revenge therapy, which is, do you still hate me? I just think it's like, I don't know, it's such like to me a quintessential jawbreaker song where it's like there's like, like we talked about the emotion, the anger, the sadness, but it's upbeat. Like the song is like so catchy and upbeat. Yeah, let's hear Do You Still Hate Me? that was do you still hate me you know a lot is made of like's lyrics and lyricism and how you know big of a deal that is to all the songs but i feel like here it's like really like the just like the lilting hey i miss you is doing so much work you know and then the drum

the symbol crashing at that time like that is like just manufacturing so much emotion so it's not always these like extremely you know overcomplicated poetic lyrics that do the work. Like sometimes, it's just something as simple as, hey, I miss you. That part gets me every time. The first time, it's like being like punched in the stomach. And we've all been there.

We've all been in that point, just kind of struggling within her turmoil and wanting to reach out to somebody. Some of us are still there, babe. Some of us live there. That's our address. We have our packages delivered there and it's fine. Okay, let's talk about dear you.

So now we're on a major label, babe. We're cooking with gas. Everyone hates us. Most notably, Ben Weasel of the band Scroaching Weasel is very mad. He was very mad. Very mad.

So mad he eats his hat. Literally? I think it was a prank, but I'm still trying to find this photo in allegedly Maxima Rock and Roll printed a photo of Ben eating his hat because he said he would, if Jawbreaker signed to a major.

That's so embarrassing. Like, way to clown your own self. Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about Dear You, because that is the major label album and the last album. Yeah. Maybe not coincidentally. And the album that got a horrible reaction from the community that, you know, felt that

Jawbreaker reflected them and reflected their best selves. But yeah, they recorded this with Rob Kavalo who produced Green Day's Duky. And which is also just... And many other classic classic that we will talk about here on Bandsblane. Fantastic producer. But also having him follow up Duky with a band from the Bay Area that the label clearly wanted to make Green Day. Right. It's sort of like Jawbreaker was constrained by something beyond what they were capable of wanting to.

to do beyond what they wanted to do in the first place. They were being put in a box that they just never fit in the first place. Right. So what you're saying is you think that like they didn't have much say in the matter and the label just wanted them to be the next green day and whatever that would take to make that happen they were going to do. I think the label still gave them a lot of room to do whatever they wanted because clearly the results don't sound anything like Green Day. And to a lot of Jawbreaker fans, they didn't, at the time, they didn't even necessarily sound like Jawbreaker. But they were able to make a lot of creative decisions that they only would have been able to with those circumstances with that budget with that producer. And it is, it is such a

clean and ambitious and in a lot of places, anthemic album that I'm glad, exists. that I don't think would have been able to exist under other circumstances, but that clearly the label did not know what they were getting into. And when they heard it, kind of gave up on the band. Yeah, I feel like Rob Cavallo doesn't get enough credit, to be honest. Like, I feel like he is the producer that is like the equivalent of, you know, the type of movie in the 90s where like there was like a dorky girl that no one looked at. And then she would remove her glasses and ponytail and all of a sudden she was hot.

Like, he would do that with bands. Like, by giving them, you know, clean sound like you're saying, high quality equipment and, like, really seeing what they had, but just excavating it and making it shinier and prettier. And that's a really, that's a really useful skill for a lot of these bands. And the outcome is not bad. No, it's great. In fact, history smiles upon this album in a way that it did not at the time. And that's sort of the big debate among Jawbreaker fans is it's got to be 24-hour or dear you. I don't think that that is necessarily a great idea.

Like, that is not a debate that I like to enter into. I think they're both great records that have strengths that make them so distinctive and that don't, you know, you can't measure them in the same way, even though it's by the same band. But yeah, there are a lot of dear diehards who would make huge claims that it is there. It is better than 24-hour. I think they're both great. Well, Lear, speaking of Rob Cavallo, I have a little treat for you. Awesome. We went and talked to Rob Cavallo, the epic producer of many gorgeous albums, including Dear You,

and asked him a bunch of questions about the record. Do you want to hear it? Absolutely. Okay. Roll that beautiful bean footage. So the entirety of the album, they let us do exactly what we wanted to do. They give us full rain. Yeah.

And I'll say this. I mean, I'm actually super proud of that record. There's some moments on that record I think could be some of the best shit I ever did. Like the chorus in accident prone. Yeah. The way those guitars come in, we actually started naming the guitar sounds. You know, Blake and I were looking for something that. that we thought would be explosive.

And, you know, we actually ended up naming that guitar sound, the white hot guitar sound. We started naming these other. We had the nemesis guitar sound and even others. And I still actually have all the amps and the equipment that makes those sounds. So you guys were allowed to do whatever you wanted, except or besides this one directive. So the one directive, sort of came at the end, and it really had to do with this song called Boxcar.

And Boxcar was a song that I knew I wanted to cut and I knew that it would be good because we, you know, I mean, Green Day had done Welcome to Paradise. Right. You know, on Karpunk and we did it again. We even recorded other things like 2,000 light years away or whatever that didn't make it. Yeah. And Christie wrote and things like that. But we, in the case of Jawbreaker, they were like, the band was like adamant. They were like, we don't, well, okay, we'll cut it.

but they didn't want it on the record they didn't want it on the record and so now we're like heading to mastering and the label and the management came back to me and said it can you try one more time talking them into putting boxcar on the record because that sounds like a single to us and that sounds like it's going to work for them and i said you know what i think that the band is going to tell me no but to be a team player on everyone's thing i will go back in and i will talk to them and i'm And I made this case to them. I said, guys are, you know, look, it's proven you won't get hurt for doing a song again. Right.

It's a different version of the song. And you're going to have all these new, right now you have like, you know, 20 or 30,000 fans that actually buy your records and know who you are. That's like the real hardcore. But there could be millions of fans out there. They've never heard the old box car. And they're not going to unless this album becomes a hit. And they go back and check out who your new stuff. is. And I said, you know, we have precedent that this works. And I also said this to them. I said,

you know, this is a complicated record. This is a demanding record. It's very true. It's heavy. Yeah, it's like, it's heavy on the musical side. It's heavy on the lyrical side. Yeah, it's emotionally dense. Yeah. Yeah, you could just probably describe it better than I can. Well, no. I mean, I think there's both, it's both musically complicated and emotionally like, not inaccessible, but like hard to access. Because it's Yeah, it's hard access. Also because

like even the core, all the chord changes are like really sophisticated. He's jumping keys all over

the place. He's doing these angular progressions. It's just fucking awesome, right? But it's also not normal for like

what they just normally play on the radio. And box car, both in terms of its lyric and its chord structure is the most,

it's about as normal as like, you know, Blake's going to get. Totally. Yeah. It's a, it's a,

it's a classic pop-pong song. Yeah. And, So I was really saying, I do think that, you know, I gave this analogy. I said, this is like, imagine you have this like really heavy suitcase. And you got to get it up on the bed before you can check out what's in it. Otherwise, it's like it's kind of bulky. You know, it's kind of tough to get into.

Boxcar is the perfect handle to get that suitcase up on the bed. So you could look what's inside, you know. Yeah. And they were like, oh, wow. Okay, you know what? We're going to think about it. You may be right. Wow. Okay. Rob Cavallo, Metaphor King, first of all. What do you think about that? Like, I actually didn't know that was a thing. Like, I didn't know that, like, it was ever even a question that they would maybe put Boxcar on Dear You.

I knew that there was at least one A&R that Mark Cates told me was so gung-ho about that song. The minute he heard it, he was just like, this needs to be on the album. Why, like, why? Why? Why is it on their other album? Why isn't it on this album? Like, this can make a record. I didn't realize it came to the point of Rob Cavalla recording a new version of it. Yeah. But I mean, it's funny. Like, it feels both like, wow, what a sliding door's moment where, like, that song would have been an alternative radio, like, smash for sure.

Like, it's kind of like, especially because remember, again, shout out Rob Cavallo one more time. That was also Green Day time. So it's like Green Day was blowing up. And that song is more analogous to like a Green Day song in its, you know, pop punkiness and accessibility. But they, you know, chose obviously not to. And that's that's on integrity period. You know what I'm saying? It's, I mean, it's also such a jawbreaker move, like to not take the easiest route.

I mean, even though they're on a major label at this point, they aren't going to do the obvious thing. It feels almost reactionary that they ended up choosing their. for a single to be Fireman, which is so not the opposite of what boxcar is, but it feels like a reaction to this very clean, straightforward driving pop punk anthem to have this complicated, I don't want to say mess of a song, but it doesn't move in a direction that you necessarily expect it to. It doesn't feel like a single even now. And there are obviously better single songs on Dear You, accident prone being the obvious. Okay, that's an, I was going to ask you that question. I have to disagree.

Accident prone is too depressing to be a single. Interesting. I think it's the strongest song for sure. Yes. But like it's the least punk song also. And so to like lead a punk band marketing situation with that song, I can see why that wasn't the choice. Oh, sure. Yeah.

Maybe save your generation. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Would have been a like interesting. But anyways, we should hear, let's hear Fireman, because I think we need to hear it to understand, like, you've heard Boxcar. Now let's hear like what the actual single from Dear You was. Okay, that was Fireman off Dear You. See, no, I think that's a pretty catchy song.

It is, it is. It's just, it doesn't scream single to me still. Yeah, I mean, it's an extremely sort of angry, scorned lover song. Did Rob tell you what guitar tone may make you? came up with for that one. He didn't mention it. Again, like, box car would have made a different impact. This song even had a video that went on MTV. It did, yeah. They look so static in that video. It just sort of like switches angles on them a few times, but otherwise they seem like very still and not

the kind of energetic presence that made them such a powerful force in the underground to begin with. Totally. I mean, it makes sense that this record sounds the way it does to me. Like, given everything we've talked about, right? And I think we should hear a song right after this because I'm just saying what it sounds like we haven't heard it. But like, you know, these songs are introspective and, you know, sort of beautiful and poetic.

And that's always been kind of the vibe of Blake at least, you know, and so it makes sense to me that that's how once given sort of the opportunity to spread his wings. That's what kind of songs this band ended up making. Right. And this is such a Blake album. He spent a lot of time with Rob finessing it after recording it. And the detail in this is so evident. Yeah, they wouldn't have been able to do this otherwise. Let's hear the song. That kind of sums up what we're saying. I want to go with accident prone. Okay, great.

Yeah, let's hear accident prone off of Dear You. Okay, that was Accident Prone by Jawbreaker. That's one of the most beautiful songs that's ever been written. I don't care what anyone says. Come fight me. It makes me cry almost every time. It's just beautiful. It's wrenching.

And I think you did choose kind of a perfect. song to talk about what, I mean, we can speculate anyways of what was going on with the band at this time. Like, it's not weird that they're making songs like this. They're like 28 or 29 years old now, you know? Like, they're not the same young kids playing that pop punk that they were when they first started. They're, you know, they're maturing.

Life has taken its toll as it fucking does. And you can hear it. And it's really beautiful and sad and just real. Yeah, there's something about giving yourself to this life force that doesn't give back and only takes away and keeps taking. And, you know, here you are at a crossroads aware that there really aren't any good places to go or decisions you can make that won't hurt. I couldn't wait to breathe your breath. I cut in line. I bled to death.

I got to you. There was nothing left. Show me, show me better lyrics. I'll wait. I mean, and you want to talk about Jobbreaker and Emo? This is, this is kind of the root of a lot of that. Like, this is one of the songs that people who are deep into emo, if they want to make the argument that Jobbreaker is of that world, that's it. Yeah, this song got a big resurgence actually recently. Julian Baker covered it, like maybe 2016. And her version is like, like, maybe 2016. And her version is like, like, like, like, fuck, like, even like different, just in different levels of gutting because she has that just beautiful voice. Yeah, it is, she makes it her own, which is such a hard thing to do. Yeah, because, I mean, Blake songs are so Blake songs.

And that voice is really specific. But on this album, and I think that was one of the criticism, right, criticisms, is that his, vocals were cleaned up a bit. Yeah. Like a bit smoother. They were smoother. It didn't sound like he was fighting off every other, every other member of the band and every other sound that they were throwing in there.

You know, he sounds calm and collected in a way that is almost reactive to the grit of what people at that time considered to be Blake. Do you think that was a personal choice in addition to a production choice? Yeah. He's somebody who he's a thinker. Like he's, to me, doesn't ever seem to be, want to be trapped into a certain place. And that's part of what makes Jawbreaker so mythical and special is that as much as they exemplified a form, they, for lack of a better term, transcended it. And, you know, he's been playing and doing kind of the same thing for a while up until this point. And suddenly he has the ability to do something slightly different and to show some growth and express himself differently.

And he's somebody who definitely takes advantage of the full range of emotions at his disposal. Why wouldn't he do this? Yeah. I mean, there's a quote from Cavallo on Wikipedia. Shout out Wikipedia. That says Blake really wanted to be heard. I think he wanted his voice to be heard for the first time. and he decided to sing differently.

So it, you know, kind of backing up what we were saying, like he wanted to be heard in a different way. You said a bit earlier that like this was a very much a Blake album. Do you think that contributed to some of the strife within the band? Oh, absolutely. His bandmates weren't hired guns. Right. This is sort of tipping it. This album, some of the stuff that Blake was doing, particularly making him.

more of his project, it'd be hard not to feel like you were a hired gun at that point because, you know, Adam and Chris were contributing a lot of ideas prior to that. And here suddenly it's sounding like, you know, it's the Blake show with, with Jobbreaker, which isn't to say that it's bad. But the equality that drove the ban for so long was that, you know, the balance was off. Yeah. And I just not to bring Ben Weasel back into the conversation, but it just after. to note that in the Wikipedia does also say that he really hated the album so much that he wrote a letter. He wrote a mean letter to Adam. What a dork.

Yeah, which if you're going to be mean to anyone, don't be mean to Adam. He's such a nice guy. He was probably scared of like, the reception, like we talked about, the reception for this album was not good. Not just amongst the community, which in the community it was just bad. They did not like it. They did not want it. It also didn't, it failed to cross over the way that I think I would assume Gaffin wanted it to and Mark Cates thought it would. It didn't land, right? Right. Callie DeWitt, who, who. Shout out Callie DeWitt. Shout out to Callie. He was the babysitter for the Cobain's. And is now a world-renowned visual artist. And introduced them to Jawbreaker in the first place and broad Jawbreaker, you know, help bring Jawbreaker.

or board at DGC and was working there for a bit. He said within a week of its release, it was just people forgot it existed there. Yeah. And it's done at that point. That's why people don't like major labels. That's where people are a little bit right about that kind of thing. How did that affect the band? I mean, they had no support from, you know, from the people who were providing them this,

you know, this great opportunity at first. It's, it was like turning off a light switch. Meanwhile, you know, their fans were showing up and turning their back to the stage or sitting on the floor whenever they were played Dear You songs, which is a very specific. So crazy. Yeah. Fucking little bitches. And yet it's not like their money didn't go to the band. Yeah, but they were like, just so you know, I will not look at you while you play these songs.

I want to hear another song off, Dear You, because again, like, now that so much time has passed, like, the interpretation of this album is completely different. Like, it's recognized to be one of the best Jawbreaker albums. So, Lear, what's another song off, Dear You? Maybe one in particular that you think people now are like, this is one of the best job breaker songs of all time. Oh, God. I keep going back.

Sorry to put you in that position. No, no, no, no, no. Because it's like I have three choices. So what am I going to choose? It's a toss-up between bad scene, everyone's fault. and Slettering May 4th, you know, the May 4th being Jawbreaker Day now, I kind of lean to that direction. And I've certainly warmed up to this song in ways that I didn't, you know, it's not written off, but it wasn't, it wasn't one of my favorites before. Okay, let's hear Sledtering May 4th.

Okay, that was Sledtering May 4th off of Dear You. I think you can really hear, I mean, that's a fucking phenomenal song, but you can hear why Green Day made it and Jawbreaker didn't. Like, Jobbreaker did not write songs about jerking off and whatever else, you know? And like, as we can see with like the arc of pop punk, like, that's what pop punk fans want. Like they want not stupider songs, just like maybe a little more accessible music and songs. And, you know, bands like Green Day and later Blink 12, you know, these massive pop punk bands, like that fit, you know. And Jawbreaker was just like a little too inaccessible, I think, for the general population of fans that were getting into pop punk. Right.

There's a clarity of emotion in the most popular pop punk that Jobbreaker refused to even try. Yeah. And not to say that those aren't good songs. I mean, like, when I come around is like, I think in its own right, like a gorgeous, emotional, moving song. But to your point, it's not as obscure. Like, the emotion isn't as obscure. It's pretty, like, simple and laid out. Whereas, like, you have to do a little more work to get into the jawbreaker.

And, you know, as we know from everything in life, people are not willing to do more work intellectually. I also do think Savior Generation is like a really important song off this album. Yeah, it is. I also just think Jobbreaker is like one of the best bands at kicking off an album. Every, almost every song that I wanted to listen to is like, oh, wait, this is the first song on this album. What am I doing here? Yeah, totally. And this one in particular being the first song on the quote-unquote sellout album is really interesting.

I think let's hear it. Awesome. This is Save your Generation. Okay, that was Save Your Generation by Jawbreaker. Show me another punk song that name checks Finnegan's Week by James Joyce. I will simply wait. So will I, to be honest. I love the idea of Blake being like, I'm going to put this in here.

No one's going to fucking understand it. But like, here it is. It's interesting, too. I mean, this song is really, I guess they all are, but this one in particular, and the reason I wanted to, like, put it in here is that, like, funnily enough, Finnegan's Wake is also known for, like, kind of being very open to interpretation. Like, every sentence is, like, not vague, but, like, it's meant to be, like, difficult to follow. It's like a dream narrative. It's a stream of consciousness. This song also, I think, kind of takes that in the lyricism where, you know, you don't totally know what he's talking about.

But then if you, like, zoom out, you kind of exactly know what he's talking about, you know, which is don't kill yourself. This is the don't kill yourself anthem. Which is quite a choice to open an album with. Well, he's not saying kill yourself. He's saying, don't kill yourself. It's a positive message. It's PMA. I didn't actually, Rob pointed this out.

I didn't get it because I guess I wasn't paying close enough attention. the million open windows I'm passing these open windows, it's like I'm not jumping out. I didn't get that. Did you get that before? No, not at all. Isn't that crazy? This is Rob said that that's what Blake said. He asked him.

And I'm kind of like right now even my arm hair is standing up. Like it didn't occur to me. But like now thinking about it, I'm like it like clicks so much into place. And still, I would argue that this is a pretty good suitcase handle. Yeah, totally. I mean, again, I do think this could have been the single, but, you know, I wasn't in charge because I was 13 years old. Okay, since this was the first song on the album, I think it was probably also the first time that people came to it and were like, what the fuck is Blake's singing voice all of a sudden? And we talked about this a bit earlier. And you also, earlier in the episode mentioned, you know, Blake had these polyps on. his throat and all this, but we talked to Rob and he, he was like, this was just his singing voice. Like he had had, he had these polyps and he had like, I think, surgery.

And when he, when it was time to come do dear you, like, this is literally just how he sang. And everyone thought it was like this overproduced thing or like Rob had done something in the recording, but it was simply just how he sings now. His voice had changed. Yeah. And he's also singing. not like fighting to catch up with, you know, with the pace of each song. There's a lot more room for him to sing and to do so with the kind of patience that his lyrics demand.

1,000 percent. He talked about how this, this I loved, he talked about how he knew even while they were recording that this was really ahead of its time and that it wasn't going to land. Dan Ozzy wrote like about the most famous punk sellout albums of all time or most Sponsored Albums of All Time. And I just read up the paragraph about Jawbreaker where I was like, oh, now we all can realize the old album sound like they were recorded through a tin can. And this album is their like smartest, most mature record ever, basically was the gist of. And it influenced like Texas as the reason and all these other album. You know, he says the prior records were recorded through a tin can.

You know, I don't, I would never be that harsh on those records there. I think they sound good. They sound great because they are, they are what they are. They're recorded in two or three days. And they're recorded in a different way that what a major label gives you, you know, you don't get like three grand or four grand to make the record quick. You get like a hundred grand to go in and set up some mics and see what you really like. And then at the same time, the band actually evolved. And my point to all this is that the band evolved faster than their audience.

And it took them a long time to catch the fuck up. That's really smart. They did. And I knew that they were, I knew they were ahead of their time. I just knew it. And it actually worried the shit out of me, but at the same time, I loved it. Like, I remember being in my little Durant hotel, whatever was called, this cheapy little fucking hotel, it didn't even have a TV, you know, and I would go to sleep there and

thinking, oh, damn, we're ahead. We're ahead. Yeah. And then how do I feel about the fact that we're ahead as a producer? and I'm going like, fuck it, this is great. Like, so what? If you're ahead of the curve,

it might mean something one day. I mean, it's literally the conversations I'd have in myself, you know, right before I'd fall asleep, I'd be like, it doesn't matter because I think it's a badass.

As long as I think it's badass and I can back it, it doesn't matter what happens, like, you know, in terms of sales or reviews or any of that stuff. Because, and just the fact that I'm having those conversations to myself means I knew that we were,

we might be getting our heads chopped off in a few months, which we did. So when you're talking to yourself before sleep, it's usually a bad sign is what you're saying. Well, it depends on the conversation. This particular conversation was rough, you know, because, and I would, Ella will admit that the thing that I did, but in terms of, you know, having the fear of like, wow, I could see that that could happen, my response to it personally was like to like strap on my fucking football helmet. Run as fast as I can straight through it. Break it to fucking pieces and say, band, let's fucking go kill them.

Let's go fucking do it because anything less than that is weak, I think. And then I truly believed in what they were saying and what they were doing. I thought that was so interesting, Lior, that like even while making it, like before it even got it even into the hands of the label or out into the world, at the very least Rob Caballo was thinking to himself like oh this is way ahead of its time like it's not gonna land the way it should he's also obviously a smart producer he knows what's gonna hit he's like you know he's coming off Green Day at this point uh like he's aware of of how powerful uh and on target a you know a single and an album can be totally fun fact though he also was only like one or two years older than them while they were making this album. Which, like, in your mind, don't you imagine the producer to be, like, much older and some, like, dad figure? Like, he was, like, basically their age.

Which, you know, I imagine also being, uh, being in a room with, with a band that you admire that much for their, for their skills and for their vision and being around the same age can be pretty intimidating. Totally. Just me as a huge fan of Ropuvalu and, like, almost everything that he has touched. I just wanted to make it clear because I think, again, The misconception was that, you know, this major label and their big shot major label producer was responsible for this new sound that the old fans hated and would like turn their back on. And in reality, like, he just helped them achieve their vision. And this was their vision.

Like whether they like those kids liked it at the time or not, like doesn't change the fact that it was exactly what they wanted to sound like. Yeah, he's good at helping He was good at helping them figure that out Even though nobody else seemed to appreciate that I just want to know what sport he was thinking of With strap on your helmets and go kill him That doesn't sound like any sport I know Gladiators

Oh yeah yeah Yeah didn't they they wore like those like gold kind of helmets Yeah Put Pierce Dillon says football I think the killing in football is accidental Okay well Cool. That's the narrative has continued. Rob also told us that his favorite gun to his head,

favorite songs on the album were accident prone and jet black. Great, great songs. Just him saying like, it's going to take a while for the fans to catch up. And they did catch up, right? You know? And he also said something to the effect of, fuck, if only they hadn't broken up.

And I don't agree. and I know that it's not that I like wish bands to break up but it couldn't have been any other way right you know like it had to be this way and there's no guarantee that they would have stayed together and made who knows what they would have made you know I mean there's no guarantee would have been good if they had stayed together because it was increasingly like a job which was not entirely what they had signed up for sort of antithetical to their you know their predileged To their vibe. To their vibe, exactly. It was becoming something that, well, maybe Adam aside, but, you know, Blake and Chris were not really invested in in the same way that they had been for years up to that point. And is that really an album that you want to hear? Totally. Totally.

Yeah, like a forced. However, you know, again, like Dan Ozzie pointed out that we read here and also, like Rob pointed out. you know, history has completely changed its view of Dear You. And when Jawbreaker reunited, I guess that was what, like four years ago? 2017, yeah. Yeah, 2017. And played Riot Fest. It was a huge deal.

And I think not only were like the original batch of fans biding their time waiting for this, they just continued to amass fans over the years because, you know, your older brother was like love Jawbreaker and passed it down or you started to research some other bands and they led you back to Jawbreaker. Rob talks about it that like my chemical romance and Paramore directly came to work with him because of Dear You, you, you know? So it was, there was a lot of roads leading back to Jawbreaker. funny because when Jawbreaker headline Riot Fest, Paramar was scheduled at the exact same time and managed to, I believe, I don't know if they convinced the festival, I don't know what was going on there, but they ended their set earlier, I think, so that they could go see Jawbreaker. Yeah, that makes total sense because I think Jawbreaker is a huge influence on Paramour.

So, like, Haley Williams is like 32 now, right? You know, there's several generations of fan have now been introduced to and influence. influenced by Jawbreaker. We actually, you know what time it is, it's Fan Voice's time. We talked to a couple of generations of fans ourselves for this show. Leor, do you want to hear it? Absolutely. Okay, let's hear it.

The narrative around Jawbreaker always seems to revolve around their last two albums, especially their last album, and with this idea of whether they sold out or not. And I never cared. My narrative with them started long before that. I think about the first time I heard Jobbreaker, I heard this really tender person who really understood sadness in a way that for me didn't feel sad. It actually felt kind of uplifting. Like, I don't know, even lyrics like it hasn't been my day in a couple years. What's a couple more?

Something about that made sadness feel manageable, not heavy or unmovable, but maybe dynamic and maybe even special. Like, if you've gone through this and you know these feelings, you have insight into a part of life that sparkles and has some quality to it that not everyone understands, but he understood. There's this part on Unfong where Blake says, sorry, we're not hard enough to piss your parents off. And it was this first time that Blake was kind of saying, I don't know where I fit in the mess of this world. I don't even know where I fit in this scene. And that spoke to me because I felt the exact same way. The fandom for me revolves around Dear You because that album is for me and for many and subjectively their best album.

But you can see it through a different lens. To mean a band like Jawbreaker, Blake Shores and Buck I really see it as like the 90s version of Morse. And I don't mean Morsey, obviously in the sense of the deeply problematic things that are associated with him and the things he says and does. But just more so in the sense that he has this. sort of poetry and way of talking about mental health and depression and feeling misunderstood in a way that I don't think many other artists or songwriters are capable of doing. It just makes me happy that maybe those guys are getting what they deserve and just finding the camaraderie that exists between the three of them and their audience.

And everybody has this idea that Jobbreaker was his emo Dower Band, but they were funny. Like nothing about the band was a turnoff. and they were the band that you wanted to root for. Seeing Jawbreaker in Chicago, I had a couple friends with me, and my one friend to this day talks about seeing accent prone being played and looking around. There's a bunch of 50-year-old men just bursting into tears. No one had ever seen anything like that. The anticipation before they went on stage, everything.

The songs emotes so powerfully, but they never feel like they are whiny or weak or melodramatic. Bivouac is my album. It was just like this intelligent punkish rock that you could sing along, you could think along, and you could rock out to. It had a little bit of everything. I listened to it the other day, and I almost started crying because I realized that there's no music today that I love as much as I love that album. To me, Blake Schwarzenbach is very much like the 90s version of a guy like Paul Westerberg, romanticizing kind of these behaviors that are very like self-sabotaging and self-abbitaging.

abusive, but then also being incredibly sincere at times. Without a doubt, Jawbreaker is my favorite band, and it's not even close. They're just the best. Yeah, I feel like, you know, these fans pretty much echoed a lot of what we were saying. And also, you know, I think the comparisons were pretty spot on, you know, like I, obviously, the Paul Westerberg comparison, I stand. You know, I love Mia Paul Westerberg. Yeah, I think that's a fair comparison, like romanticizing bad behavior, self-destructive behavior.

And then, you know what, I'll even give them the Morrissey comparison. While Blake is not problematic in those ways, you know, they were both really poetic. Like I will once again use this opportunity to mention that I do have a Smith's tattoo that is actually an Oscar Wild quote on my side because, you know, that's a line from Cemetery Gates. So he too had the thing of referencing Keats and Yates and, you know, kind of like literature and music and that, that's pretty direct parallel to Blake. The fans get it. Again, the one's like kind of like a low key light jawbreaker fan.

Like you're either like a fan fan or you're like, I don't care about this fan. Or you're dead. You're dead. Or you've died. Yeah. It passed away. Well, we are sadly. we have reached the end of our time together.

Thank you for having me. This is fun. It was very fun. Now is the time that you have the immense power of choosing the last song that we will leave the people with to really like push home the jawbreaker story. I'm going to go with Kiss the Bottle. Oh, okay. Yeah. Do you want to talk about why before we wrap out?

I think that was the first jawbreaker. or song to sell me. I'm a pretty late period devotee or late period in my life, late teenagers, I think. And that I found so captivating and really captures that, not nostalgia, but it does capture that Westerbergian sense of romanticizing the things that are awful for you and being self-aware of how you're living through the consequences of your terrible decisions and still taking another step in the bad direction. And the emotion that Blake is able to project through this is really powerful. And this is at a time right before his polyps were removed for him.

So his throat is just beaten to hell, which makes it sound way more lived in, just like he sounds like he's been around way longer than he had at that point. Okay, amazing. Kiss the Bottle is a great song. Well, thank you again, Leor. be sure to check out Lior's writing at The Chicago Reader and come back next week for another episode of Bansplain and here's Kiss the Bottle by Jopricker. If you liked what you heard today,

subscribe for more episodes of Bansplaine, only on Spotify. Our brilliant guest today was Lior Gileil. You can read his writing at the Chicago Reader and follow him on Twitter at I-M-L-E-O-R. I'm Lear. And huge shouts. To the man, Rob Cavallo, for talking to us about Dear You. You are a king amongst men. Huge thanks to the many Jawbreaker mega fans you heard on this episode.

Benjamin Locke, Marty Thompson, Meredith Alling, Michael Kent, and Rob Black. Bansplain is a Spotify original show. This episode was produced by The Wind Beneath My Wings, producer Dylan, aka Dylan Tupper Rupert, and edited by Michael Hardman with help from Casey Simonson and Tari Miller. Executive producers for Bansplain are Gina Delvac and me, Yossi Salad. Our gorgeous and catchy theme song was composed and performed by Bethany Cozantino and Jennifer Clavin and graciously recorded by Carlos Delagarsa in Los Angeles, California. Special thanks to Felipe Guillermo, Robert Adler, Leah Edwards, David McDonough, Dana Meyerson,

and Greg Rupert for producing Producer Dylan Rupert, The Wind Beneath My Wings. come back every Thursday for a new episode of Bansplain only on Spotify. Okay, that's the end. We did it, Joe.