Bandsplain - Lifter Puller & The Hold Steady with Darcie Wilder

Episode Date: December 2, 2021

From Lifter Puller’s scrappy Minneapolis origins to the Hold Steady’s reign as “America’s best bar band,” Yasi is joined by writer Darcie Wilder of Gawker to unpack this pair of critically beloved and certifiably cult bands who culled as much from Catholic symbolism and Springsteenian character studies as they did from the social milieu of the Brooklyn aughts zeitgeist. Follow Darcie Wilder on Twitter @333333333433333 and pick up her book, “literally show me a healthy person.” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's with this band anyway? I don't get it. Can you please explain? Wait, like, Bansplaine? Hello and welcome to Bansplaine. I'm your host, Yossi Salick. This is a show where I invite an expert guest on to explain a cult band or iconic artist to me and to you. Today's episode is a two-for-babe. Today's episode is about lifter-puller and the whole.

hold steady. If you've never heard Craig Finn's quote-unquote singing, hold steady, babe, this is what that sounds like. My guest today is Darcy Wilder. Darcy works at Gawker. She is from the internet. And she is the author of the book, Literally Show Me a Healthy Person. Welcome to the show, Darcy. Thank you. I'm really excited to talk to you. I'm so excited. Big fan. a long-time listener, first-time guest. You are a first-time guest. Darcy, tell the people, tell me and the people, why you wanted, demanded, if you will,

to talk about lift or puller in the whole today. I kindly requested and then escalated tactics to protesting, the sit-ins, the ticket line across your home address. all of that stuff. Lifter Puller Hold Steady as like my college professor would say part and parcel. Very linked and connected.

Lifter Puller died like, you know, no longer together but lives on in some way in the Hold Steady, which is a cult band, a very, I'd say, unique band close to my heart. And their fan base is very also a specific, very passionate fan base.

They have very passionate feelings about the band. And they're largely men. A lot of men. So I just said a lot of words just basically to say that a lot of men like this band. And I understand and I hear them. We hear you men who love the hold steady and just like in advance. You can start your own podcast, babe, anchor.fm slash music and talk. I, too, am excited to talk about lifter-puller and the hold steady.

Full disclosure, this is the world's most annoying opinion to have here, and I know maybe you share it. I'm a lifter-puller fan that I never really got into the hold steady, and it's not because I was like super plugged into the Minneapolis indie music scene of the 90s because I was like a teenager thousands of miles away listening to like sublime. but because my pal, Daniel Monick, I think it's Daniel. It's definitely Dan,

was the illustrious second drummer of Lyft or Pillar, but really the main drummer of Lifterpuller. And when I met him about a decade ago, I started listening to that band, and they're fucking good, babe. They're really good. The Holdsteady came out from the ashes of Lifterpuller,

maybe like a year or two later in 2004. And by 2004, I was drunk or just like off-grid, really. I was living in New York, even though I lived in Brooklyn in 2004, which is literally where the hold steady came into being. They did not register too much on my radar. We're getting a little ahead. And drunk in Brooklyn would be the perf. Like, that's like very in line with the whole.

hold steady's lyrics at least. Absolutely. I probably was at a bar with them multiple times, but I did not know much about the music or listen to the band. I did not read Spin Magazine at the time. I just wasn't up on this. Producer Dylan goes, what if all these songs are written

about you and you just don't know it? Possible. I think it was that I found out of them through Jessica Hopper's blog, and Jessica Hopper was a writer for Punk Planet, which was cool. which I read. And so I was like looking for stuff.

And so I was like, all right, this band is like cool, approved. Shout out Jessica Hopper, a former guest of this show, and ongoing spiritual advisor to band's plan. An angel. Let's start with lifter-puller. Formed in 1994, Minneapolis. According to the Wikipedia by way of Boston, but that's not really true.

However, I do believe there was some like meetups of the band in Austin. I believe Craig went to college there. Maybe some other people went to college there. Dan was there bumming around seeking, who knows. But they jelled together in Minneapolis. There was an earlier drummer named Dave, who actually never played on any of the recordings or anything, but he is the one that came up with the band name as he had a job where he said that he just lived and pulled stuff all day. And I guess there's like an actual tool that's called a lifter puller. So they named the band after that. Craig Finn, lead vocals and guitar. A Leo Virgo Cusp,

which I think is very important and we'll get into that later. Just like producer Dylan. Absolute psychopaths, just kidding. Steve Barone, guitar and keyboards, a Virgo. Dan Monick, drums, a torus. Tommy Roach was not able

able to find his birthday, the first basest. And Tad Kubler, the second basest, a cancer. So we have a lot of earth? A lot of earth. And then one cancer. Let me just do a quick dramatic rating of the old lifter-puller website, which I did find on the web archive, the band bio written by one again, Dan Monick. Everyone met in Liff, lifterpuller.com, pre-new lifterpuller.com, which does not have this information on it. Everyone met in Boston. Craig and Steve were roommates. They met Tommy through mutual friends. I then met Craig at what unbeknownst to me was Tommy's 21st birthday party. Everyone then floundered around for a while, and for one lame reason or another, Craig, Steve and I all ended up back in

Minneapolis. Ran into Craig at a party and asked him about his band. He was playing shows, but they just lost their bassist. He was trying to convince Tommy to move from Connecticut like it should be that hard and come and play bass. I buy a bass for lack of better things to do and start playing with Craig and Dave, the drummer at the time, and Steve marches and noodles along on guitar. Tommy moves to Minneapolis to go to grad school and Dave Bales. A couple of singles and an East Coast tour later, I decided to play drums instead because I can't play bass worse shit. Tommy signs up on bass and Skeen ships us off to Chicago and 30 below weather to make a record with Casey Rice at Idful in the lavish Wicker Park area. There's more, but that's a good little origin.

We're adjusted. We're settled. This is how Lifter Polar came into being. Nice foundation. Foundational text. A foundational text, if you will. The Boston makes sense. They have, oh, I don't know, a Midwestern. Is it because of the Catholicism? Well, every fact, everything is because of the Catholicism. But, They always seem like some sort of an East Coast vibe, even though they're like extremely Midwestern. Yeah, I think that's fair. So the first two singles were with Dave Garlock,

who was that first drummer. The very first single is not available on Spotify.com. It's called Prescription sunglasses. I think we should hear a clip because we can hear the really OG early, early lifter polar DNA. Already very, very in the spirit of it. Already in the spirit of it. Already had me at hello because if that's not some 90s-ass fucking sounding music,

I don't know what is. Craig Finn, it should be noted, is singing. Yes. He sometimes doesn't. But yeah. Also just like even from the first, I guess this is the first single, first line of it is like she walked inside. Like they're always talking about some unnamed or like later to be named.

character doing something. Totally. They're very like short story-esque the lyrics of Craig Finn. Very true. Throughout. Yeah. But yeah, very short story, like recurring things.

Characters pop, that's later, but characters popping up and out. Yeah. The influences of Lyft or Puller, I think, carry on through the hold steady in certain ways. but like, you know, it's Minneapolis. Like, I think Craig Fins talked a lot about the replacements. Then Husker Do, obviously.

But then also, like, there's clearly some, like, Bruce Springsteen reverence coming from, like, all band members. Yeah. That to me is, like, super interesting. I think we should play a song after this, but it was, like, not cool to, like, Bruce Springsteen. Extremely uncool. Yeah, not in the 90s.

is it there was not the Bruce Springsteen renaissance of cool people that we see today. Like it was... Yeah, very Americana, very confusing band to come out in the 2000. Well, I guess that's the whole study, but Lifter Puller still is like Springsteenie. But very strange that they have like both the Springsteenie, but like replacements and Dillinger Four and like kind of blending all these things together. Totally. And Craig Finn loved hardcore.

which is also interesting. And I believe they were from that sort of like, you know, just indie scene. It feels to me as someone who was absolutely not there that Minneapolis was very like, that was the vibe was just like, oh, like Dillinger for a lifterpuller, atmosphere. You know, like everyone just played shows together and it was sort of this like indie music, but like not really like. divided by genre in such like a meaningful way.

Someone told me that atmosphere would like open for lift or puller or something like that, which is very odd to think about now. Atmosphere for those listening who don't know, a hip-hop outfit. Underground hip-hop, you might call a backpack rap. Full disclosure, I was a massive atmosphere fan. We have a shared history. shared history. I do have a Rhymesayers T-shirt. My pen name in my creative writing class in college

was Lucy Ford. I'm not ashamed to say it. I have come out in front of all of you. I too have a Rhymes T-shirt that I think I got Velashtive high school or something. Very Aesop Rock. Oh, yeah. Defts up score for sure, totally. But yeah, Atmosphere and Lifter Puller were like bros. atmosphere has a song called Lifter Puller. I think that's how I found out about the band Lifter Puller. But I had already been listening to the Hold Steady. And so they're kind of like patching that together because also there was not a very good

internet source. There was like allmusic.com. Sure. It makes sense with like Atmosphere and the Hold Steady and Lifter Puller, all of this like storytelling and these characters that pop up, Lucy Ford is like this perpetual protagonist, ruining his life. No, he seems to be ruining her life, but whatever. But yeah, this like storytelling, word playing, very like clever, but also like kind of enjoying their cleverness too much.

Methinks the Sir does enjoy his cleverness too much. Well, let's hear a Lyft or Pillar song just to like get this party started, set the tone likely well I guess if you are if you're listening to those you probably have heard lift or puller but if you haven't let's play a song off their first record self-titled

I would hear anything I mean you chose Mission Viejo which I love should we hear that first unless you have a feel strongly otherwise I want to hear Star Wars hips also but let's hear both okay this is Mission Viejo

you are listening to a music and talk episode where full songs and talk segments live together in gorgeous harmony only on Spotify. Guess what? You can also create your own music and talk show for free with Anchor, Spotify's podcasting platform. Get started at anchor.fm slash music and talk. That's anchor.fm slash music and talk. That was Mission Viejo. Producer Dylan has said that this is Dinosaur Jr. I mean, it's not Not Dinosaur Jr. Craig Finn's singing style in the beginning was definitely, I mean, part of the reason I fucking love this album

is because it's like Archers of Loaf Chore. Arches of Loaf also kind of had that same. It's not the talk singing yet, but it's like really we're not effortfully singing either. It's not like a slurring, like it's not slurring, but it's kind of just like something. low... Just sort of really laid-back low-effort

delivery of vocals, I guess? Yeah, like if you were maybe at like a boring job, and then like singing along, I think of it, maybe like a... Not really hitting notes so much. It's like a solid album. It's great.

Very, very solid guitar indie thing. It's really great. There's like already like sort of sketches of these very specific things that happen, right? Like even in this song, it's like, behind the karaoke bar sitting in your brother's car. These are like scenes that are... We all drove back to Del Mar.

Yeah, like stories, visual stuff, truly short story-ish, more than... Vignettes, if you will. Vignettes, if you will. So this album came out on, like, as Dan Monick wrote beautifully in his band bio, Skeen Records, which Skeen famously, or maybe literally not so famously, I don't know, put out stuff like Green Day. Like they put out the third Green Day EP, like way pre-Green Day albums, Sweet Children.

They put out stuff from Trenchmouth, which was a Chicago band that Fred Armisen was in. They put out Crimpshrine singles, which was Jesse Michaels' old band before Operation Ivy with Aaron Kamisand. at bus when they were like teens. I think they put out like a jawbreaker Green Day or a jawbreaker crimpshrine like split seven inch. They were like a very cool label. Oh yeah. Which is by the way, part of the reason why it's like impossible to find.

Like I think lift or puller like vinyl goes for like $800 to this day on eBay because they've never reissued any of it and it's very like be rare. Thank God for streaming music. How else would we have found it? No, but truly I think it was when. the music began being streamed that I could find it finally. Totally. I mean, that's part of the reason that Lyft or Pollard didn't get big, you know?

I mean, they should have, but literally could not access their music. I have a conspiracy, like, Tin Hat theory that, like, had they gotten big, it would have been, like, kind of, like, jawbreaker where, you know, it would be a dear you situation, and then it would have kind of imploded. Oh, interesting. The album label, they were on, like, a non-derogatory pop pop. sort of like the seeds of like indie pop punk it sounds like when I think that was in my thought

but just how that term has changed. Oh yeah, how it's, well, this is way pre-warp tour babe. We don't have what we have now. This is just 90s slack rock, gorgeouso all over the place. I would love to play lazy eye, but I won't do that to everybody because it's almost eight minutes long. It's a fucking great thing.

song though. Yeah. But I do want to hear Star Wars Hips. I think Star Wars Hips is kind of important because it is the first appearance of the character Juanita, who does recur. Yes. Well into hold steady. I put Star Wars Hips on, I think of it as on the EP because yeah, would you read it? And I forgot. No, no, no, do, do that. I just forget that it's on the first one. We could literally do either. I tried to get. I, I tried to get some answers onto why it was, why it appears on two separate releases, but I could not. This is Star Wars Hips.

That was Star Wars Hips. It's really giving Archers of Loof, and I love it. I love it. I wanted to read this quote from Craig Finn that he did in a 2005 pitchfork interview talking about his influences, because, again, we're going to hear them throughout this. but like we said before,

like growing up in Minneapolis, Husker Do was a huge band. I always thought Grant Hart was the better songwriter and his lyrics were very specific. Bob Mould kind of favored vague lyrics. But as far as detail-oriented songwriters, more contemporary, certainly Bruce Springsteen, Jim Carroll,

John Darnell from the Mountain Goats. That was later. And then a lot of hip-hop really inspires me. My absolute favorite stuff is Brother Ali from Rhymes, atmosphere, obviously, things like Aesop Rock, sage rances, MERS, all those guys, even J-Z, hip-hop is so much about lyrics.

And as a lyric, it's hard not to be inspired by it. So, again, I'm getting ahead, but this is like, like you said, part and parcel, like, we're on a continuum. I think, you know, like you said, atmosphere comes around a little bit later, and they are opening for lift or puller. And you can maybe see a world where, like, Craig Finn is like, oh, I'm, I like this delivery. I like the you know could I? And like but he's not going to rap

but he is going to maybe do something else and it's kind of already happening on the second lifter puller album right? I think it happens pretty quickly especially with like NASA Coliseum that comes on the next one. Yeah. And it's almost kind of like slipping into it for me because

of that like slacker singing that becomes like kind of talking. I don't know. I feel like it's very fitting, so it doesn't, it doesn't seem like a strange choice. I don't like clock a lot of religious references, but then with the talking comes this like, I think beginning in like entertainment and arts EP, it starts like racking up these like references to like communion and this like sort of, you know, like Catholic references that then kind of explode in the hold steady. Totally. Well, so okay, so Lyftra Puller puts out half dead and dynamite in 1997. That's,

For weird reasons, which, again, Daniel Monach did note down in his bio, but I didn't read it. Skeen Records takes, like, forever to put this first album out. So the second album comes out the same year because they had already finished it. So the second album is called Half Dead and Dynamite. Let's play a Nassau Coliseum so people can hear what we were talking about. This is Nassau Coliseum. That was Nassau Coliseum. the cover of this album is really giving

like late 90s coffee shop mural do you know what I'm saying oh my gosh absolutely yeah for those at home do a quick a quick gogs it's a collage I was informed which also totally checks out I really like this album a lot too

I like that song The Bears which apparently was originally called Casey Rice's Brothers Bear Bar if that gives you any indication of what the song is about. Although, funny story, I wish we haven't gotten there yet. They do, Lentra Pillar does play on the Jenny Jones show. I think because they just knew someone that booker.

Yeah, 1999. This is like a total aside, but if you're out there and listening, or if you know this woman, I'm dying to interview the woman. who briefly booked the Jenny Jones show in the mid to late 90s because she had like Gwar on, she had the lemon heads on. She was an inspired artiste

and I need to know. I need to know the stories. But anyways, I don't want to get too ahead. The Bears is a good song is all I'm going to say about that. Cool, NYC's great. Hardware, love hardware. Took the hands job at the heart.

Great album. And it's like kind of the more like moving into that. They're like little grooves. Yeah. It starts to have like a, like it starts to be a little thematic though I don't think it's like obvious enough for people to like happen upon. But I think like Craig Finn is like venturing into a thing that becomes kind of his signature,

which is like doing these like thematic work. works. Yeah, the DNA. The DNA of the Hold Study is here, but also Hold Study, fuck aside, lifterpuller in and of itself, just a great band, and that's a great album. The next release, which I think you told me

was your favorite, is the Entertainment and Arts EP in 1998. I want to point out that I asked Dan, because I'm always curious about this, like, we obviously know what's happening in the mid to late 90s, elsewhere. But like, you know, they didn't really tour, so they didn't like tour with people. I think he told me that they kind of only toured later and it was with less savvy fav and love as

laughter. Rest in peace, Sam J. and great band. But it wasn't like, like they were so part of like any sort of like indie rock scene. They were just sort of like doing their thing, you know, in Minneapolis and putting out releases and playing a bunch of shows. in town. My partners from the Midwest and not their age, but a little younger, and said that they were just a band that was around.

They weren't like a cult. They didn't have whatever. I mean, I do think that they were probably cultish. I had a solid fan base, but like they were, you know, the band that played shows. The band that played shows. What else could you ask for? The working man's band.

But yeah, the entertainment arts favorite release for me, of lifter-puller, although it's my favorite, I think that Fies is probably the best. The Stephanie song, Sangre de Stephanie? San Gere de Cephani, yes.

They feel like they're all long on this one, and there's a recurring Star Wars Hips thing. Yeah. The Stephanie song starts getting, like, super Catholic, but then also with the Roaming the Foam. Roaming the Foam is my favorite song on here because it's so fucking weird.

It's so weird, it's so good. I didn't know what a foam party was until I heard this song. And I was like, what is happening? Yeah, apparently Craig said that at the time he lived with Steve and they saw a television program on foam dancing. He'd never heard of it before. It's when they spray the club like with soap suds, but it goes up really high, maybe your shoulders. You can't really see what people are doing under the foam. It's pretty weird.

It's very dirty. But all the sud sort of make you think you're taking a bath. I was fascinated by that. Yeah, the clean, Dicotomy and like you're in a bathtub in a club. The late 90s were also like literally like kind of a cursed time. Like it was like. Oh yeah.

Just like weird shit was happening. We should hear Roman the Foam because there's also, roaming the foam has a Guns and Roses direct quote as well as like a little keyboard like diddy of Salt and Peppa push it in it. Oh yeah. It's just like a gorgeous. just weird fucking song. This is roaming the foam.

That was roaming the foam. Why else, Darcy, is this your favorite release? Well, this is my favorite has Let's Get Incredible, which I think is like a very, not to be condescending, but I think it's adorable.

Like, it's not, I'm not condescending. I think it's like, honestly adorable because let's get incredible. It's just a shout-out song that I believe was inspired by like rap shoutouts to their friends and then they do it. And it's just a list of like people they want to like recognize and part of this thing that I think is with this band of like loving their friends.

I also like on this album, the live versions are very like sweet. The little times are like Craig Finn is speaking to the audience. This is a new one. As usual, it doesn't have a name. We're open for suggestions. We never get good ones. I think that's your fault, not ours. I think it encapsulates this little type of, you know, the vibes.

Yeah, it is very cute. Also, like, you know, it's not just, like, the singing that was, like, kind of loose, not in a bad way. But, like, the drumming was kind of loose. Like, it's all kind of, like, has this, like, swing. Like, I don't know. The vibe is good. I just want to, like, contextualize for, well, you, because you were, like, five. but also everyone else and producer Dylan.

1998 was like rock music was doing a thing. And the thing was Pretty Fly for a White Guy by the offspring. Slide by Goo Goo Goo Dolls. Inside Out by Eve Six. And then cake. And I only bring that up because Cake also kind of has that talk singing. That's a good thing to bring up.

Yeah, they did the talk singing, short skirt, long jacket, very, very similar describing, very visual. Yeah, they were less indie and like I think obviously more produced and and cleaner sounding in general. But like, you know, that, oh my God, it has like a German name. sprek gaseng spoken singing it is an expressionist vocal technique

between singing and speaking just for those of you at home who speak German I want to get into that for just one second before we get to the last lift or puller release and get into hold steady this is an ancient tradition sprucasing

according to a ringer article that actually came out this year by Zach Schoenfeld. Some sources trace sprucasing back to Wagner's music dramas of the 1800s.

One of the earliest recorded examples of talk singing was the Talking Blues, a hit record by a Talking Blues man Chris Bouchion from 1927.

Make up to bed, gal, make him up night. Old Preacher Johnson going to be here tonight. He's a chicken evening. However, talking blues

may have been heard at an African-American minstrel show as early as 1915, according to a journal article published by folk song scholar D.K. Wilgis. So it's happening, babe. This shit has been happening since the 1800s. In, like, popular music, it feels like it's like the 60s, Bob Dylan, Johnny Cash. Like, that starts, like, happening. But then Lou Reed, I feel like really drove this shit home. Shaved their legs and then he was a she.

She says, hey, babe. take a walk on the wild side. Yeah, that sounds right. Right? And obviously Jonathan Richmond. For dancing. Come with us. And soon I was dancing in the lesbian bar.

Oh. Oh. Because I think the modern lovers came out in the 70s too. Like they were like the king, the kings of talk singing. Have you heard this band dry cleaning? I have. And I really liked it.

And I meant to purchase their EP. and then I forgot. Yeah, so good. And it's a British band and the singer, quote unquote, again, it's like a woman who's doing this like really gorgeous, cool, like she just sounds so cool, talk singing. I was really into it. Anyways, that's just a little brief historical aside for everybody at home.

I mean, we're jumping all over the place, but like full disclosure, there's not, lifter-puller was not, was like a true cult band in the sense that there's like, people really only cared about them in a larger way after they were done. So there's not a ton to draw from. And I did annoy Daniel Monick with easily 600 texts over the last like three or four days. He was very gracious about it.

But that was my information source. But, you know, it is kind of interesting that they didn't get big or maybe they would have, but they broke up. because there was like stuff going on indie-wise. I mean, we talked about the big rock songs, but like, you know, 97, 98, there was also like Slater Kinney had put out, Dig Me Out. Yolotango, Modest Mouse, wasn't like big, big yet,

but they were like big indie world. Obviously, like built to spill, spoon, you know, stuff's happening. But it didn't happen for them. Real brief detour into Jenny Jones real quick before we go to the last release. I just have to talk about it. it because March of 1999, Lifter Puller, is on the Jenny Jones show.

Apparently, they were supposed to play roaming the foam, but they said that song is too hard. So they were like, okay, what about the bears? And they were like, okay, cool, awesome, that song's about bears. And it is about bears. But it's not about that kind of bears. It's not about the Charmin bear

or the bear in the backyard in Altadena where I live, it is about the other kind of bears. And the Jenny Jones people did not pick up on that. Also, the Jenny Jones episode was good strippers versus bad strippers. And I believe Jan told me at some point the strippers were like singing backing vocals. It was insane. Jessica Hopper aforementioned was in the audience. Just want to point out, a band that really had no notoriety or anything was on Jenny Jones

singing their song with strippers. And that brings us to the year 2000 and fiestas and fiascos. Yeah, this is, I think they're most popular, the most enigmatic, the most signature lifter-puller. Yeah, I guess I don't have any knowledge of that because I don't have any like comings and goings with lifter-puller fans besides yourself. So I don't, I don't know. I think that like fiestas came out when they were breaking up,

but it's a solid lineup of songs. Yeah, it's really great. We don't have to hear the whole thing, but I wanted to mention Katrina in the K-hole because I feel like it was very prescient. But also, you know, raves are starting to happen. I'm bringing it up to say that, like, Craig Finn's lyricism from the beginning

was, like, outward looking, right? Like, it was very, like, social commentary, observational of, like, what's happening around him. And, like, you know, raves are happening. the, you know, Katrina, like we said, we started to have named protagonists, which I want to get way deeper into

when we get into the hold steady, but like this is sort of my fucking sweet spot is like, as producer Dylan knows and people listen to this show know, I'm like deeply obsessed with this like trope of the 90s that was like this just canon of songs about mentally ill women. They never had a name.

It's always she. And like, but presented in some, a charming and like mysterious manic pixie dream girl way in in like a way that made it seem like that's the way to be the most alluring person you could possibly be is to be like a danger to yourself in some way or the other but that's not what Craig Finn did right. Craig Finn actually gave these women agency if you will. I don't want to sound too pink pussy hat right now. But like, you know, they had names. They had stories. They were sort of like, the center of attention and not

always in relation even to him. You know, they were, it was about their stories, which I always thought that was really fucking cool. And I was thinking, Jessica Hopper brought it up and then Dan brought it up, like, separately, that song, Candy's Room by Bruce Springsteen,

which is like also a really good example of, it is told from the point of view of Bruce Springsteen, but it's really about a fully formed character named Candy and how that might have been, I'm speculating, an influence maybe on Craig Finn because that's, really he does do Candy's Room a bunch of different times. Yeah. And his dog, I think, is named after a Bruce Springsteen song,

Rosa. And what? That's a little creepy detail. Why do you know that, babe? I'm just kidding. Someone did even more homework than me. Shout out Craig Finn's dog. What song do you want to hear of Fiasas and Fiatta?

fiascos before we carry on into the hold study. I would say Candy's Room is really good. Katrina and the K-hole is also very good. Lake Street is for lovers. Nice. I like, whatever. It's hard to pick your children, babe.

I know. You can pick too. I agree with Katrina and the K-hole. All right. Let's hear it. It's a good short song. I like it as opposed to like when they got into a bit of longer songs. This is Katrina and the K-hole, no dime square. That was Katrina and the Kehoe. This Fiestas and Fiasco's Lifter Puller album, maybe it's the most popular because I think it was more accessible.

This album came out on French Kiss Records, which was the label of less savvy fav. I could never really say that properly. Who were their buds? It got a Chris Gower review. I don't know if that was contemporary or in retrospect, but he said Postpunk E Street for fuckups

clocking E dollars. That's fair. Yeah, succinct. I mean, I think it was a decent score. Doesn't matter for us to speculate, I guess, but like Lyftorpler broke up, right? It was like, we don't do this anymore, bye-bye.

But you could kind of see a world where like they would have kept going and occupied a similar position as the whole study did. Because, you know, 2000 is when we're really starting to cook with gas with indie rock stuff is like coming back like Blonde Redhead. I think 2001 is when the Stroke's album came out.

And like miss shapes and stuff like that. Shout out at Boy Greg Kay, a listener of this show. I'm not sure if he's listening now, but I hope you are bit. But yeah, also like with the Katrina and the K-hole, like the nicknames of people and it's already like sort of like inside club type thing. Yeah, the threads begin to line up of like characters that come up in especially like separation Sunday, which is the most narrative I think they get as the hold steady. I wonder like how different the output would have been if they continued with lifter polar because like the inception of it was so different than like the hold steady, which is like a began New York and the odds and stuff like that versus like we got. together in Boston, in college, or right after that by way of, yeah.

It's worth pointing out that in the 90s secondary markets were still like the jam, Bibb. Like that was cool. You could live in a secondary market and like have a scene and make friends and be in bands and like, oh man. I know. Just falling by the way aside, babe. I do also want to say, sorry, before we do move on in that same vein of like, well, what could have what could have been. Dan did tell me this kind of crazy story that like around this time, like probably right before they broke up or in that year, they had played a show at the 400 Club.

That's called? The 400 bar and Billy Joe Armstrong was in town. And because his wife is from Minneapolis. And he was at this point, you know, it's 98. So, or 99. Green Day is already huge. They won Grand Prix. means the whole thing. So he's, Joe Strummer, I guess, had played in town that night with the mescaleros and, you know, Billy Joe and him are friendly. And he brings Joe Strummer. He's like,

you have to come see Lifter Puller. And so they're saying it's like a 200, 250 cap venue. And they're just like sitting in the corner, like loving the shit out of Lifter Puller, like Joe Strummer's cheering. Like they, Dan was like, we actually played so well. It was crazy. Like we did an encore. And he said like, Joe Strummer was just like gushing over them. He was like, you guys are amazing. You're going to be bigger than blur. You're going to be bigger than pavement. Dan did a really bad British accent, but I won't do that to you guys. Yeah, bigger than blur. And I guess like the next day he always interviewed for some paper or magazine. He was like, it's lift or puller's world and we're all just living in it. Which is like really fucking cool.

Like, I mean, if you're going to like, if your band's going to break up, that's like kind of a cool thing to happen. But that's so sweet. And then to like break up the confidence. It's great. Yeah. I think, I mean, I don't want to speculate, but, you know, there's a reason they were called a bar band. Yeah, that makes sense. I'll just leave it at that. So the hold steady forms in 2000, I meant maybe three, I'm not really sure, three or four.

Tad and Craig had decamped to New York, to Brooklyn, specifically. According to our friend Wikipedia, they had came up with the, idea for the hold steady while they were watching the band concert film The Last Waltz. And Craig asked Tad, dude, why aren't their bands like this anymore? And they were like, oh, we'll make one. And their very first show was actually playing as the house band for an upright Citizens Brigade comedy show. Oh my gosh. Because they had wanted like a Paul Schaefer type band to play a kiss song, a cheap trick song, and a David Bowie song. And Craig went to Tadden and was like, dude, this is like your fucking wheelhouse. You know all these already. And so that's

where they played. I guess it might have been Arlene's grocery. Shout out. Is that, did Arlene's grocery clothes? I don't know. No, no. It's still open. I just walked by it. Amazing. Yeah. Okay. So again, before we get into the first hold steady album, we should talk about what's happened in indie rock. And, particularly like what's happened in New York Indy Rock. Because like I said kind of before, the strokes had already come out. The Yay Yayaz came out. I want to say

2000. Feverita Tal came out in 2003. Interpol, I think, had come out. So like earlier part of the 2000s, there was this like strain of like, I don't know how to describe it. It was like, it's not the hold steady vein of indie rock. It was like more glamorous. It was less salt of the earth.

Obviously, it's not Midwestern. There's like electro-clash leanings. There's rich kids. There's cocaine. You know, like it's a... Last night's party or whatever. American apparel. But yeah, also in the state of...

Not even just in music, but like, sorry to bring up 9-11. But like we were in wars. There was the American flags everywhere. And so like... Right. the whole city is not like they're Americana but very much not in that type of

Americana but it was still a little bit it was still a little bit dangerous to be doing what they were doing Dangerous Yeah I don't know about dangerous I think like maybe like unpalatable Yeah no I don't be dangerous I just mean that like

I would not have expected that Like it was so it was so gross to have any sort of like reverence for America. Unless, you know. Yeah, they were just, I mean, there was like a vacuum. I don't even say that because there was still like, like I said, modest,

modest mouths had like fucking blown up, I think, by this point. Floodon was like 2004. Yeah. So it's like just this year Floodon. And they had already kind of gotten big with Moon and Antarctica because their song was a fucking van commercial or whatever. So there's like, there's other stuff happening. But like, you know, again, it's all very like fransfered in it.

Like it's all very LCD sound system. There's so much electro-clash. Like I think a lot of rock bands, quote-unquote rock bands, like the strokes is and the AAS, maybe we're like a little bit less like, I'm not going to say surface because they're good bands,

but it was a little bit like, our lyrics don't matter, you know, like whatever. Whereas like Craig Finn was like, I am Raymond Carver. You know, like, this is a short story and these like the centerpiece of this music is like my wit and my, you know, gorgeous storytelling. And extremely earnest in, like during a time that was, I don't think very earnest.

But also really like rye and kind of dickish, which I noted some of my favorite like those kinds of lyrics. Anyways, sorry, this is like a ton of, this is maybe too much. scene setting, but I think I just wanted to orient people. This is the sea from which the hold study was sprouted. There were still venues at this time in New York. There were still venues. Okay, so the hold study puts out almost killed me in 2004.

Darcy, how old were you in 2004? I turned 14 on May 1st. Incredible. And you knew about this album? I did not. So I found it. My first hold steady album was Separation Sunday. And almost killed me.

It was very difficult to get because of the aforementioned labels. Right. Unreliable. This was, again, still on French Kiss records. Les Savvy, Fav. I believe I can't, I can't speak French. So I don't care what people think. Great band, by the way.

Great band. Friends of the Lifter Pullers and then the Hold Steady. This album, it hit. Yes. I think the, like we kind of talked about the talk of lift or puller in the like circuits around the, you know, country, the Indy Rock circuits around the country, like their mythology had grown. And then so when the holds, they had kind of primed the pump for when the hold steady put out this album. But also a theory that I have, which kind of reinforces, I think, my understanding of why, like, I don't. didn't know too much about the Holtzzi at the time, is that they were really a rock critics band. According to Mr. Hoper, many Midwestern music critics were working at spin and stuff at this time,

and they obviously loved Lifterpuller. And so when the Holdstady came out, they were like, yes, like, we're going to review this. And if you look back, like, I mean, the Hold Study is one of the, like, most critically beloved bands of this time. Like, they have endless write-ups. It's very positive. Like, Pitchfork is losing their goddamn mind.

You know what I mean? The pitchfork scores are absurd. I don't mean they deserve them. They're just for pitchfork, very lauding. Yeah. And it's like, and if you were me, like, wearing your fucking, again, all overprint Nome Degera hoodie and your Nike dunks and like, you know, putting back your fifth Irish car bomb at Max Fish Bar before you like chased some skater

down the road and weren't reading Spin Magazine. And like, I just didn't know about it. Even though I did have some comings and goings with the lead singer of the bravery, totally incidentally, because he lived with one of my friends in Brooklyn. And so some chit chats there. All that to say, this album was really critically, like, off bat, like, beloved. And they got number 31 in the Paz and Job Critics poll in the Village Voice that year, which is a huge deal.

I think that the whole study had more of an organic, or not more of an organic start, but just had like an organic start in New York where they just started playing music again. And this seems like what it, like when they first got together and they were figuring out like the second phase. Totally. I like the story of like,

so the first song on this album, Positive Jam, which is a great song, is like the myth of the hold steady, right? It's like all the sniffling indie kids hold steady and all you clustered up clever kids hold steady. And I got bored when I didn't have a band. And so I started a band, man. we're going to start it with a positive jam, hold steady.

Gotta start it with a positive jam. Hold steady. And apparently they wrote that song like the day after their first show that they had played well before, obviously, this album and stuff. The best lyric of this entire album, Babe, from most people are DJs,

Baby Tuck Off Your Beret. Fucking drag me to hell, first of all. Secondly, everyone's a critic and most people are DJs. it's almost like too perfect I feel in some of these songs yeah I mean this line from bar fruit blues which is like so cutting

she said it's good to see you back in a bar band baby I said it's great to see you're still in the bars I did mention I like listened to that recently and hoped it was going to come up on here because that's one of my favorite who can say anything there was a murder a murder happened in that song

of this person. Why don't we play a song? So before we get to talking too much more about this album, do you want to hear most people are DJs? Do you want to hear Barfruit Blues? What do you want to hear? I feel like most people are DJs is probably the move even though if you want bar fruit. No, let's hear most people are DJs. That was most people are DJs. Guilty as Charge Bibb, especially during this time. You know, it's interesting because like that, that, that, was a perfect song to pick because it's like that 90s slack you know vibe it's gone babe it's left the goddamn building ibor city is already being mentioned which is like i have no uh understanding of uber city except for the hold steady but it's just a fun word to say it comes up so often and it's such a

like a weird thing to say is ibor city um a neighborhood in tampa florida i believe so. It comes up in Separation Sunday a little bit. But yeah, less slack rock. I think my favorite part is I was a teenage ice machine. I kept it cool and coolers and I drank until I dreamed. And when I dream, I always dream

about the scene. All these kids, they look like little lambs looking up at me. Yeah. Which is setting the setting, you know, I mean, they were. For the devoted fans. Like we said earlier, like it was really uncool to champion or like,

Bruce Springsteen in that time in the 90s, right? But like, as like every decade is sort of reactionary to the one that came before it, like in one sense, it's happening in a different way, right? Like people are shirking the like slack or apathy, blah, blah, blah. I mean, you can't say that like electro clash isn't like over the top, you know, and like all that stuff, right? Like, but then in their own way, the whole study is doing like their thin Lizzie, like, you know, Bruce Springsteen.

which was considered very uncool in the 90s and it's like okay let's fucking lean into this because we love it and it's good you know it works another band that like I would never have considered listening to until like maybe until I was in college when I started listening to them because it was uncool and like boomerish stuff like that yeah um and I think everything is flattened now and you can like whatever but back then it's at least for me it seemed like things were in little little compartments and you couldn't like two things

that were opposed to each other. Oh yeah, we talked about this a lot. I mean, that didn't, it kind of starts happening in the 2000s, but definitely in the 90s and prior, like, you didn't get to just like be part of multiple things.

Like you had to like, you had to be a thing. And that was like it, you know? Bruce or Dillon has pointed out a, a, um, thing from the pitchfork hold steady oral history, um,

where I guess they're talking about, it says, while everyone else tried on television and joy division, the hold steady dug up thin Lizzie. Okay, yeah. They were doing the riff rock thing. Okay. And yeah, like again, they're also,

he says, we weren't dressing the same as those bands. No, sir, you weren't. You guys were in their 30s. They were also older. Like I'm, the strokes were much younger. The yeah-e-e-e-as were younger.

Like these people weren't there like early, like early to mid-20s. The whole study was like white dudes wearing flannels by and large. Yes, extremely. And then the one guy with the handlebar mustache and the accordion or whatever.

The one guy with a bit of panache, if you will. Yeah. I want to talk a little bit more about this before I move on to Separation Sunday to use your professor's parlons, perhaps also part and parcel, these two albums. This album is considered to be a concept album.

It feels to me like maybe it was always building up to Craig wanting to do this, or maybe like that was the natural evolution of his craft of lyricism because it has these like, starts to have these fictional recurring characters, the Charlemagne. I can't remember if Charlemaid wore sweatpants on this album

or the next album, I believe it was the next album. and Holly, short for Hallelujah. I believe there's one more. There's Juanita and like Dwight. Oneita. Nightclub Dwight, stuff like that. Yeah. I'm going to read a couple of the reviews just to drive home my point that this was a beloved critics band.

Okay. Amanda Patrusers wrote this for pitchfork. Ernest without being sentimental and authentic without sounding contrived. The hold steady are one of the most convincing rock bands to emerge. in recent years, a can-crushing throwdown of unadulterated aggression and ear-splitting amps. They gave them an 8.0. You could almost hear that saying, like, you know,

this other stuff is fluffy. You know, but this is can-crushing, unadulterated. Rob Sheffield reviewed it for Rolling Stone, and he said, What kind of guy writes a song about how he tries to get people to call him Freddie Mercury? But everybody keeps calling him right-said Fred. Only one man, Craig Finn of the whole.

Steny. While the band bashes out friendly trash rock riffs, Finn goes off the deep end in surreal rants such as killer parties, sketchy metal, and positive jam. He spins hilarious, hyperactive tales about America. In the 90s, we were wired and well connected,

put it all down on technology and lost everything we invested, and romance. She tasted like those pickle chips. I love that pickle chips line. So good. It's a classic bar bar moment. He kind of says that they have like a perfect ratio of meatloaf to Billy Joel, which is interesting.

But I can kind of hear it when you say it. Yeah. Yeah, I would not have come up with that, but I agree. Should we play one more song off of it? Yes, let's do it. I want to hear Bar-Fruit Blues, even though I can barely pronounce the name. I just really like that song. This is Bar-Fruit Blues.

That was Bar-Fruit Blues. Went down with some crust punk junk and woke up with a straight-edge band. Oh, my gosh. Oh, wait. Yeah. Oh, there we go. Darcy's wearing a straight-edge hoodie for those of you who don't have eyes on her, which is everybody.

Yes. So, oh, also with that song, which I always forget, because I guess it's the second one, so I'm just used to hearing it when I put it on, or third one, whatever. Just how good musicians they are. Like, with lift or puller, I get, like, pulled into, like, the lyricism and the scene setting and the storytelling. And then with Almost Killed Me,

it's just like the compositions are very well done. It's very gratifying. Like the guitar noises that go like, I don't play music, so like whatever, but just very gratifying to listen to. This is a podcast for people who don't play music. We don't need that snobbery up in here. Yeah, it's great.

It's really good. I really love, also I just want to point out before I move on. I love that in the first two songs of this album, Craig shouts the hold steady, like several times. Which is like we are, you know, it's a rallying cry if I was that kind of music journalist. But you know what I mean? It's like, we're here, babe. So Separation Sunday comes out just one year later.

This is where young Darcy is introduced to the hold study. This is my, yes. It's your entry point, if you will. It's my entry point. I remember purchasing, I think it might have been. I'm purchasing it at Generation Records and listening to it on my little CD player. and I think I had heard your little hood rat friend first from the internet. So good.

And as a teen, I still didn't know, like, Hornets Hornets does the like, they go between the, you know, left and right speaker stereo headphones thing. So I was like, is this going to be a gimmick? And then it's all of these like biblical references in this narrative, which is like right after like Green Day, or maybe it's the same time as Green Day's, like a rock opera, so I, which I was not into. Oh, yeah, because Boulevard of Broken Dreams has already come out. I need to ask you a question. Okay. What was it about the hold study, separation Sunday in particular, that you as like a 14, 15 year old liked. Like, did you actually like it? Or was it like, okay, I really think Jessica Hopper and

Punk Planet is cool. I'm going to go pick this up. And that sort of like colored your listening experience of it. Or like, were you like, this is what adulthood's going to be like? But you were straight-ards? Maybe you weren't that interested in bopping around the bar. I earnestly liked it because of the turns of phrases he used. And it was like fun to listen to. And like, Holly is such a cool, I thought Holly was such a cool character. I didn't understand, like, I in no way thought that, like, being Catholic, like, I was raised Catholic and I no, no way thought it was, like, cool. But I thought that, like, this scene, it was this, like, kind of aspirational scene that I feel

didn't exist in the northern tip of Manhattan. There was, like, there were no punk shows. I had to, like, travel for that. I had to take the subway out of the neighborhood, whatever. And so I really, like, idolized the characters in them, the relationships. I thought that, like, it was, it was like, she was like a runaway. That was cool. And had these friends, even though they weren't really friends, you know, like, I was, you know, I was straight edge.

I was too scared to do, to do drugs or whatever. But I don't know, there was some sort of affinity. But what really kept me was, like, Craig Finn's writing. and these little catchy phrases that come up again and again, like the little lambs looking up at me, that's somewhere on this album. Okay, yeah, totally. I hear that. I hear you. But yeah, it's unlikely because it's very like a broie or like rock critic or whatever. I definitely like got the album because a punk planet thing.

But then I very quickly found out that they were not a punk planet fan. That's interesting that you bring that up, that they're not a punk planet band. It is, though, they are a band of people raised on Fugazi and punk and hardcore. And you know what I mean? Like, this is, these are people who did come up in that paradigm and through those channels kind of. So it is actually like, while like maybe like the expression of it in 2005,

isn't like punk per se. It's definitely spiritually punk. I mean, I think that you can feel that. But that's because it's like coming from Craig and Tad and people who were like steeped in hardcore and punk as they were growing up. There's a good quote that producer Dylan pulled up from our good pal Joe Gross, who was on this show,

his 2005 profile of Craig Finn. He says, Like many white suburban punks, Finn was hypnotized by hardcore's mixture of the raging and the trivial, which laid the groundwork of the band's weird mix of earnest storytelling and distancing irony. The interesting thing to me about hardcore in the late 80s is how worked up these guys would get, he says, take a band like youth of today. That guy was just enraged and it was all about the scene and backstabbing and your crew versus my crew, all these kind of minor things, and they would get so furious.

That's why hardcore appealed to me more than metal. I don't think you can be truly angry and play 64th notes. And it's like, he sounds kind of angry. You can feel like a bit of an anger, you know? Or like a biting thing. A biting, yeah. He's cranky. He's pissed off.

You know, like, it's interesting that that's like, that's how that ended up expressing. Yeah, there is like a biting thing. And the like direct references to like youth of today in seven seconds and stuff like that. I saw them a couple years ago. And I was very surprised at their current day fans being like pretty pretty different from that. But it was a great show. Yeah. I mean, we'll get into the fan base.

We'll get into the fan base a little bit. I think that makes sense to me that like you found out about them through Punk Planet and you were into punk. Yeah. But you still liked it even though it didn't, you know, present as what you were, you know, or what was like commonly accepted as punk. at the time. Yeah. It also reminds me of what you had said earlier about the characters, like the women have names and stuff like that. And I remember in Hoppers, just the Hopper's emo essay that was in Punk Planet, specifically a line. I remember because it rattled me to my

core as like a teen who loved the bands that were being criticized, rightfully so, about how like the woman in the songs is always like walking away or it's always just like the silhouette of a woman. And they really don't do that. There is like an anger there and like a criticism of the scene or just like the men in the songs are not great. Actually, I have a good quote about this.

This is literally the Lyftra Puller Hold Steady Jessica Hopper episode. But Jessica Hopper interviewed Craig in 2014 for Spin and she specifically asked him about these like writing female characters. And she said, while we're discussing characters, I want to talk about writing female characters because sometimes you have not just written female characters, you've written entire records around women who have names, who are doing things,

who aren't just a way to deepen or change the character of a man. You have made women the center to your records, and that's something that's actually fairly rare for contemporary male or female songwriting. How conscious are you of the way you present women in song? And he said, I'm really sensitive about it because, look, have you been to a hold steady show? How many women do you see in the audience?

a small percentage. Jessica says maybe 18%. And he laughs and he goes, yeah, so there's a lot that ends up scratched out. I'll put it that way. I'm very self-aware that things could go wrong. The way I write about women has to be right. So I want to create a sensitive character that has ups and downs, but ultimately it's a human, right? It's something that I pay attention to. But a lot of the way I use characters in general, men or women, is out of a desire for listening to rock music with characters. When I was growing up thinking about like born to run, he says, Wendy let me in. I want to be your friend. I always wanted to know more about Wendy. I think about that with the character Holly and the two guys, Charlemagne and Gideon.

She's running it. She is moving forward and they are in her orbit, so to speak. In that case, yeah, they're almost secondary to her. Gorgeous. Wonderful. Yeah. We stand. That's a great. That's a great quote. It's so good. And it's like, how thoughtful. It is. Can you pick a Holly song, like a very Holly specific song? for us to hear. Your little hood rat friend? This is your little hood rat friend.

That was your little hood rat friend. Producer Dylan has said, chimed in, popped in to say, I love that Roy Baton Keys, East Street keyboard player, because she needs to tell me what's up. And that she would love it in every song ever written. Because I did say off mic that this is truly just a Bruce Springsteen song

if he wrote songs about hood rats who put, you know, pens in their skin. I also, I just need, I need to bring up Hornets, Hornets because Hornets Hornets is, I believe this is also a song about Holly, or is it a song about me? Because she's got those Bones Brigade videos. She knew them back and forth. She slept with so many skaters.

And she mailed the words along to running up that hill. That song got scratched into her soul. Let me just tell you the fucking literal, the icy grip that running up that hill had on the bars of the mid-2000s, you could literally not walk

in to a fucking bar and not hear a DJ put on running up that hill. It was literally impossible. Producer's screaming in the chat that she told me that these songs are actually about me and I was Craig Fitton's character study. What have we've put together

that Craig Finn had been silently eyeing me around the bars of Brooklyn as I did my thing. Jessica, that's absolutely not true. He's going to be like, I have no idea who you are, but Horn and Tornis is also a good song, but despite its personal attack on me as a person. Yeah, and the scratch into her soul thing,

that's like a pretty, that's like one of the, the hold steady, like, lines that I always... The song got scratched into her soul. And then he says, he never heard that song before, but he still got the metaphor. Yeah, he knew some people that switched places before.

Loll. This album, again, it's like part and partial, like we said, same concept, same, the character universe, the Craig Finn Cinematic Universe. Charlemagne is a pimp, I believe. Gideon is a skinhead.

Holly is like a, like you said, maybe like some sort of like Mary Magdalene situation. sometimes addicts, sometimes prostitute, sometimes Catholic. I read that Tad had just become a father and wrote a lot of the music of these songs like on his couch alone, and it was like an emotionally heavy time. And so that's where this music came from.

I want to just correct that Franz Nicolet actually didn't join the band until this album. And they had also added the Rocket from the Crypt producer Dave Gardner to the lineup. This album does really well. It hits number eight on the 2005 Paz and Drop the Pole. The Village Voice loved this band. I believe they were on the cover of the Village Voice at some point.

It was number 10 on Spin's best albums of the year. An unnamed source did tell me that at this time, he was also a writer for Spin, and it was every critic at Spin wanted to write about the whole study. So only reinforcing my theory that they were the band of music critics far and wide in the 2000s. To your Catholicism point, I want to again quote our pal Joe Gross because he really called this out. Separation Sunday is the most egregiously American Catholic album since X is under the Big Black Sun, Springsteen's Tunnel of Love, or that Jewish new waiver, Billy Joel's The Stranger. And the latter two are clearly huge with Finn.

And Craig said, I think Catholic iconography is a cliche in punk. The candles, the tapestries, all that Jane's addiction, Santeria stuff. But so much of the ritual is still with me. Those Jesuits could just blow your mind. There's a lot of misinformation in Rock. There's a huge oral tradition that you become obsessed with. Information gets completely mixed up, and these stories just build and build. I think that fits in with the Catholic thing as well.

Early Christianity was an oral tradition to begin with, and a lot of mythology is built on the idea that the early Christians were a persecuted French group. Is he saying that Christians were punk? Yeah, man. Yeah, man. They're just, they're just, that's really true. Also, because, like, the speak singing stuff, it is kind of, it sounds so corny, but it is

kind of like, yeah. Yeah, and, like, prayer and, like, doing rosaries and stuff like that as, like, iconography, like, Catholicism, which I'm just, like, specific because, like, during that time, evangelical stuff was so much of a thing. thing that like I don't want to it's very different I feel yeah no totally I it's you know I just I want to bring up

a thing that's been kind of like nagging at me I think it's really worthy to like bring up the counterpoint of modest mouse because I do think they were like thriving at the same time and they were like these two massive sort of like critically

beloved and similar and different you know in so many ways I just keep coming back to it as like a counterpoint because like Modest Mouse very like pretty explicitly saying was anti-Christianity. And like there was, you know, a lot of lyrics. But both, you know, both Craig Finn and Isaac Brock raised pretty religious.

Craig Finn, Catholic, Isaac Brock, can't remember a bit of sect of Christianity. You know, both big drinking bands, you know. But like the hold steady was very out, like I I think I said this earlier, like very outward-looking, right? Like social commentary, storytelling. I mean, communal. Yeah.

And Isaac Brock was also social commentary, but like on a way more meta scale where like capitalism is bad. The malls are going to kill us as like kind of an expression of his own depression and angst. So it's just, it's so interesting how much was going on within these two bands. And also the music of modest mouse just getting like

increasingly buoyant. Like, again, the first. fucking float-on song, the ocean breathed salty, the song that they broke out with, like, as, you know, compared to, like, what's happening with the hold study where there's, like, they both have this, like, through line of, like, anger. That's so true. Yeah. I think that you're onto something.

And, like, Modest Mess is such a solitary band of, like, I'm just trying to sleep away the part of the day. I cannot drink away or, like, drink away the part of a way, whatever, whichever the line is. And, like, that sort of, and then the different coasts, even though, yeah, I mean, technically coasts, but then Midwest. Yeah, but like Midwest and then, you know, Issaquah, you know, like is not Issaquah the Midwest of the West Coast, if you will? You know what I mean? Like the most totally.

Like this is a long drive for someone with nothing to think about with these like long songs that are kind of, they're not meandering, but they're just building. It's truly like driving music. Yeah. As compared to like the entertainment and arts, which are these long songs that are all, that, similarly, but they're both pretty dark. But one of them, it's like one of them you're drinking alone, the other one, you're on some terrible couch

that's like gross and disgusting, and it's like 4 a.m. and people... Yeah, and some girl just put on running up that hill. And that girl was me, babe. She had her door knockers on and she was gonna dance. Oh, another thing that, like, another Catholicism point, but, you know, the Bible isn't like this one narrative thing.

It's like people write it, you know, that oral tradition, thing that he mentioned. Right. And then all these different books by the different people about what they remember happening. Yeah.

And the Holtstiti's narrative is not, like I at one point wanted, was like, all right, I'm going to, I'm going to follow the narrative. And it was not successful because it's all of these references. You can't really,

it's just like these stories and these mentions that kind of loop around and like they call back to each other. But it's like more concurrent than this actual, narrative structure, which I think is cool. But I also kind of wish that there was. But then, you know, I didn't want American Idiot for a reason.

If they wanted to write American Idiot, they would have. They would have. So this album, this second part in parcel, hold steady album, pitchfork loses their whole goddamn mind. I'll tell you that much right now. 8.7. Best new music. 8.7.

Can you believe? That's so funny. So Bitchwork says, The Hold Study's first album Last year's Almost Killed Me was a tangled mess of damaged character sketches and triumph at Bar Rock Thump.

Harold and Kumar go to White Castle reimagined as an epic of Russian literature. But Separation Sunday is something more, the elegiac, biblical, lost innocence, junkie odyssey

that Dennis Johnson never wrote. Oh man, Dennis Johnson reference? Yeah, that's... Pretty good. Yes, sure. Yeah. Yes, sure.

Okay. Entertainment Weekly reviewed this album, BIP? That's right. They gave it a B-plus, which is, that's a nice, that's a nice review. Yeah. This is my favorite Hold Steady. I don't think I mentioned that. Just want to say this is for me.

Why is it your favorite? Separation Sunday as an album, I think, stands itself so strongly, like, just putting it on. It's pretty short, too. I found myself just, like, in preparation for this, listening to it very often. It's very gratifying. It has, you know, it has all the ingredients that you want as the like the wordplay, the lyricism, the storytelling, the guitar going, those noises that feel really good to hear. Those good feeling noises. It has the, uh, you know, these like upbeat stuff and then it like cools down by the end of it, um, with this like moving thing.

the last three, I think, like, bring it home. Like Chicago seemed tired last night. Yeah, I'm sweet St. Paul. Oh, that must be the hardest like state of a law. Yeah, I think that it's like a pretty solid representation. Allow me to read you the Robert Criscoe, full review of this album.

Confession booths are for rosary twiddlers, but Bible lore is as American as Sunday school. So I take the scriptural references as tokens of Craig Finn's quality education. And since in my Sunday school, papists like my grandpa were going to burn forever because they never got born again. I'm glad Finn's guys and gals get born again too. At bottom, his people are my people, and I wish them the same shot at heaven my adolescent Billy Graham experience guarantees my reprobate ass, which is to say that this literature with power cords addresses not only the crucial

matter of vanishing bohemias as cultural myth, but also the crucial matter of re-emerging spiritualities as cultural fact. I fucking love this, by the way. I feel like this is literally like a bit timeless, this sentence. Because I think we're like in a constant state of the crucial matter of vanishing bohemias as thought of by the next generation about the last generation. And also the crucial matter of reemerging spiritualities as cultural fact. that is, you know, in a sense always happening, you know?

Yeah. And it's especially happening now. That review you just read is so good. Chris Gobind. So good. And it reminds me in the odds when like that came out, like yoga was like coming to, you know, it's like always been a thing. But like people were going to the, people were going to yoga and New Age.

Like maybe, maybe it was just when I found out that people were doing. these things, but maybe it was always there. But I feel... Winifaltrow had been doing it for a lot longer a bit, but I hope you know that. And like 2000? Okay. Like 2003? 2003?

Invented yoga. She invented the ashram too. Exactly. We are such a splintered and broken society because of the internet and everyone is so isolated and so alone that like the logical thing to happen is the return of church because church is first and foremost, although people would argue with this, is a community, right? Like that's, that was the purpose it served for people, like a really actually like meaningful purpose.

I mean, aside from control or, you know, rules or whatever you want to like get into, it was a place to gather. Yeah. So just to like sort of back up my own point about the whole. steady being like the critically renowned band that maybe wasn't actually, you know, had that many fans in real life. There's actually a quote from Craig where he says about this album, I feel critically acclaimed, but we still haven't sold that many records. A huge step in being in a band is getting to the point where you have actual fans. I think that's where we're at, which is exciting.

Which to me is like really fascinating, the idea that like you had pitchfork love. and then you had fans instead of the other way around, you know? Yeah, it's like, I think that later on they got more of a, their fan base got so different from the lift of polar fan base. Yeah, totally. And maybe just like getting old and their music changed a bit. But yeah, critically beloved musical darlings, they were also like in their 30s.

They were no, they like weren't, you know, young, young spry. dare. How dare. Look, I'm in my 30s now. I can say, but like, I assume that their peers, that their critics were their peers. Whereas Right. That's a really astute observation. Also, there was no critics

acclaiming lifter polar from what we could tell, right? We barely found anything. I mean, there was, they had an organic fan base, but like, in terms of like critical reception, it was like, you know, Jessica Hopper's zine. It wasn't, you There wasn't like a ton going on. Well, anyways, this all changes in terms of actual fans when we get to Boys and Girls in America

in the year of Our Lord 2006. I do feel that this album Boys and Girls in America is like a little different, right? Like, it feels like there's a lot more religious stuff on here, like nods to Catholicism. But there's also like it feels like a pulling back almost. from the named protagonist. Like, okay, for example, in the song that you chose, which is a chill-out tent,

that song has contributions from Soul Asylums, Dave Perner, and Elizabeth Elmore of the reputation. And at first I was like, oh, if there's a woman singing on here, she must be voicing Holly. But she's not. Like, this is a totally separate story, right?

What is a song about it? It's a meet, a cute at Coachella? It's, yeah, they're at a Coachella. Ballapalooza. It's completely, like, if the separation Sunday is like a novella, if you do it is more of a novella than like a novel, but boys and girls in America,

it is more back to this like short story thing where like maybe there's our current characters, but it seems like a different era. Like, I think there's a line between that. Before anyone screams at me, I know this song is not set at Coachella. I do realize the first lines are, there was a stage in a PA up in Western Massachusetts.

I just don't come and yell at me. You're so annoyed. Go on, D'Arcy's 6th. I can't imagine what your inbox is like doing this week after week. But yeah, chill out tent. It's also getting more elaborate. There are like more, you know, kind of elaborate things in separation Sunday with like, you know, piano and stuff like that. But chill out tent, it's even more.

It's like lifter-puller is so far behind now. Right. how much the evolution of Craig Finn's, specifically lyricism, has come. Yeah. I mean, the lyrics are still there, but like, it's like less punk, I believe. It's kind of like Spider-Man where they got bitten, like the DNA, starting Lifter-Puller, continued on through the whole steady. And I feel like there was a little change in the DNA where like it gets more elaborate.

I think you're really right. And I think like, you know, there's like really gorgeous. details in this song that are like backing up what you're saying. Like, you know, they gave me oranges and cigarettes in the chill out tent. You know, they're like really painting a picture. I found this interesting because at this point, I would assume the hold steady is playing a lot of festivals. And like, you know, if you're the kind of writer,

I mean, I guess if you're any kind of writer, Darcy and I ostensibly being writers, you're going to write what's around you, however that comes out. It's like going to be a bit of an I Love Lamp situation. And so like they're at festival, they're playing festivals. So they're going to, Craig's going to write a song set at a festival. You know, like it checks out. Yeah.

And there's still some songs on this album like Party Pit, I think is really good. That are kind of still in that They're still in that vein of separation sundae. Like teens getting together, these parties. Totally. Maybe back to like rolling the foam. Also, Citrus on this album, I think, stands out. I love.

Citrus is like total Yossi core. Because it's kind of like acoustic-y, right? It's like very like pretty beautiful. I feel Jesus in the clumsiness of young and awkward lovers. I guess there's like an acoustic song on Separation Sunday, but yeah, citrus, I was going to choose that, but then I thought it was like too unique. But that's also, I think, kind of a harbinger for the future, maybe of like Craig Finn's solo stuff. Let's hear Chill Out Tent, since we've talked about it a bunch.

This is Chill Out Tent. That was Chill Out Tent. I just want to say two things. One, never has there been a more perfectly cast female voice to go along with the lyrics. She looked just like a baby bird, all new and wet and trying to lie to Parliament. And also, the next lines, he quoted her some poetry. He's Tennyson and denim and sheepskin. He looked a lot like Izzy Stradlin.

Fucking come at me, babe. This is Yossi Kor. Do you look like Izzy Stradlin and Tennyson and denim and sheepskin? Bang my line, babe. Her voice is just so beautiful. I know, it is really beautiful. It's a cute song. Could be a little indie movie.

I think there's maybe a little hint of like, you know, adult men writing kids, young people, but, you know, what are you going to do? Listen, Garden State came out in 2004, babe. Like, what are you going to do? This is we're living in a post-Garden State world. Oh, my gosh. We are. and nothing was ever the same.

I did find this album to be like musically a little different. Again, I don't have the vocabulary to speak intelligently about how music sounds different. But, you know, to me it was like prettier, softer songs, like more beautiful songs. Craig said, I was kind of anti-chorus. I was like, I want to say more stuff. Boys and Girls might have been the first time that I accepted that a song was going to be stronger if it had something that was a little more memorable about it that people could grab onto.

It was definitely conscious because a lot more people were paying attention to the hold today at that point than anything I'd ever done. Yeah, because this album seems more, I don't want to say commercial, but definitely just more refined, more, like their fans, I think, they'd start changing from, like,

Lifter-Puller being more, an organic base to, like, critics, and then now, mass appeal. I really love First Night. I think First Night is, is like something that makes the case for Craig Finn is like, I mean, literally a true, a true poet. You know, like these lyrics are incredible.

Charlemagne, Gideon, and Holly are back, babe. We have the, everyone's in the building. The party is back. She was golden with bar light and beer on that first night. She slept like she'd never been scared. I'm sobbing. Aw. Me crying.

She's inconsolable. unhinged and uncontrollable. Holly's inconsolable. Unhinged and uncontrollable. Who can relate? I know, right? Yeah, just still great lyrics. As I've gotten further down

the rabbit hole of Holly throughout these albums, I do need to walk back a little, my assertion that this doesn't fit into the canon of beloved mentally ill-women because it does. Oh, yeah, she's totally.

Even though she has a name. I mean, Virginia had a name. Again, loved babies and surprises had a name. Loved babies and surprises. Didn't make that less of that thing. She's like a mess. She's like, as the memes would say, BPD girl. Producer Dylan doesn't like it when I bring up Virginia and meet Virginia.

And unfortunately, babe, it's never going to end because that song is, is an important song in my worldview. And I did just do it 20 times. Did I reference me in Virginia a thousand times during our live recording last week? Yes. Producer Dylan said, I've met Virginia. Well, aren't you fucking lucky to have done so?

Anyways, a first night is gorgeous. I really like Chips Ahoi. Also fits into the canon songs about Unwell Women. Yeah. And now when I saw them a couple years ago, they'll sign like Chips Ahoi boxes, which I think is indicative of the difference between present day hold steady

and like a lifter-puller punk scene. Like who's getting this Chips A-Hoy not vegan? I don't know when it was, but like at some point the Hold Steady tours with both Dave Matthews and Counting Crows. Which for me, gorgeous love. Happy, my kings,

my absolute kings. But maybe like we have gone We have fallen very far from the tree of Lifterpuller. Maybe we've just grown up. Maybe having some kids. I also just like, sorry, one last song that I would like to play, one song I want to reference, South Town Girls. I don't want to hear it in its entirety because it's actually not really my favorite song on this album.

But it's like we're doubling down on Bruce Springsteen. In fact, sometimes I'm like, is that a cover? Is that a cover of Bruce Springsteen song? That's how good the homage is. What I would like to hear is you can make him love you. It's such a good song. That song goes in the canon of Drag Yossi to Hell songs.

Let's hear it. This is You Can Make Him Like You. That was You Can Make Him Like You. Sorry, and I know this is sort of like dark, but like, how romantic you don't have to deal with the dealers, let your boyfriend deal with the dealers. And for me personally, you don't have to know how to get home, let your boyfriend tell the driver the best way to go.

As a person with no sense of direction, really spoke to me. This song also very much speaks to me. I won't get into the details. But it also reminds me of a Separation Sunday song. Like it kind of feels like it's like a holly universe thing. This song is probably about holly or a holly. You can wear his old sweatshirt. You can cover yourself like a bruise.

Probably one of the best lines. One of the best lines. It's so beautiful, so evocative. It only gets inconvenient when you want to get high alone. Man, it really sets the scene. Again, still on the canon. Okay, I want to read a quote from Craig Finn kind of about the shift to this album. Because Boys and Girls in America is the title on the road,

a Kerouac reference? Isn't that right? Yeah, and there's that lines. I think Sal Paradise was right. Exactly. Weird reference. Yeah, there are nights when I think that Sal Pyrodite is right. Boys and Girls in America have such a sad time together. It's from Stuck Between Stations, which incidentally is one of Craig Finn's favorite songs he's ever written. Again, like he's writing about the past.

Like he's writing about his 16-year-old self who, you know, then at the same time, I think that song, you know, he said that it was thinking a lot about the role of depression and art and how artists like often have problems with depression and he was writing a bunch when he was hungover so I feel like you can kind of hear that in the song like totally that nostalgia exactly that nostalgia and that sort of like the ability to look back from a place of depression

so it's even more like milky-eyed you know at the past where like it's that much more beautiful because you're just like this life sucks and that hungover morning it also reminds me like the caroac thing I think the town in the city by Carraweck, I read the first few pages of it and then abandoned it like a decade ago.

But I always remember this part where he's writing about how Friday is the best night of the weekend because all of this potential. And you get so excited about it. And then as a weekend goes on, it gets worse and worse because the opportunity is lost. Which very much reminds me.

Sunday scaries. The Sunday scaries are coming. Yeah. And the potential and then it gets squandered. wandered, totally. This quote from Craig Finn, he said, in the first two albums, almost killed me in Separation Sunday.

We were trying to capture the idea of driving around. Growing up in Minneapolis, 40 miles wasn't too far to drive to go to a party, which is kind of what we were saying. More times than not, the party wasn't even happening, but that's what you did.

You drove around, listen to the radio. I was trying to capture some of that feeling. But when he gets to boys and girls, he's like, in on the road, when Sal gets somewhere, there's still a chance that'll be a real place.

In Denver, there's sawdust on the floor and saloon doors. Now there's Petcoes and Home Depot's everywhere. Denver doesn't look much different than Minneapolis or Orlando. I try to capture that shift, too, the way places are no longer scaled to the human. I'm at a red roof inn and there's a Denny's and it looks close. I take a shortcut and I surprise a guy sleeping in the bushes. There's poverty on the fringes. It's very alienating.

And that alienation is something I want to capture. Beautiful. That could have been the lyrics. What we were saying about the festival also applies to like, I think, this whole album, which is that like the hold steady we're like a pretty heavy touring band. So it's like if you're, you're experiencing the world like he's saying from a red roof in and there's a Denny's that looks close.

Like anyone that's been on tour knows that like everywhere is the same. Every place is literally like the same amount of desolation and weirdness when you're in a red roof in and you're just like trying to like get some sort of like decent meal before you got in the van. Then titling your album Boys and Girls in America, it's like very truly like we're in all the states of American, we're seeing, like, the same stuff happening. It's very interesting that this episode is coming on the tale of the live Fountains

of Wayne episode we did, because, you know, Adam Schlesinger and Fountains of Wayne is another band, which, again, it's uncommon that wrote about fictional characters instead of writing about me and I feel this way and I'm sad and, you know, turn the lights out, it's less dangerous, here we are now entertain us, whatever, you know, like most, most, most, most, rock music is the personal, you know? But like, I just, timing-wise, I find it's interesting because we were talking about that a lot with Fountains of Wayne, who obviously make a very different kind of music,

but, like, are kind of capturing the same sentiment by putting it to these, like, really specific stories of people. I mean, Stacey's mom is extremely suburban, right? And one of the most suburban. Also, like, Adam Sussinger, rest in peace. what a brilliant person. Absolutely brilliant person. I mean, both him and Chris Collingwood wrote

so many songs about, you know, they focused a lot about like office workers and stuff. Like they have the album Welcome Interstatement and Drew's which Stacey's on. But anyways, it's, I just think it's like, it's rare that people write like that. But when they do and they do it well,

it's really effective. If there was a song that I could see Craig Finn writing from his perspective, it would be citrus. Right. Like, hey, citrus, hey, liquor, I love it when we come together. Lost in fog and love and faithless fear. I've had kisses that make Judas seem sincere.

Lost in fog and love and faithless fear. I've had kisses that make Judas seem sincere. I mean, maybe it's Holly. Maybe it's one of, but it's also, it just seems, if it's a character, then it's like, you know, a monologue. You're right. That one seems pretty first person. Like, it's a love song about alcohol.

which, God bless. Craig Finn said about what we had talked about before, like the people assume that songwriters are talking about personal experience, but no one ever thinks of a filmmaker in that same way. That's a kind of really astute reference, you know? That is. Well, I went to film school and everyone was just making fictionalized versions of their life. Oh, my God, I'm from Manhattan.

I went to film school. Just kidding. It was a state school. I went to state school. I mean, even I think Craig Finn would be the first to admit even though

that these are character sketches like they're still these songs are always they're still about him you know? It's not possible to write or create something that's not about you

even if it's about fictional people. Completely. But then also it's like you know, death of the author like whatever but then also like very much every novel you tell something about the author.

The reception of this album Boys and Girls in America was very, very very, very, very, very, very, very, very positive. NME loved it. They said something interesting that was like, this album suggested the hold study were the latest link in the chain

that connects Bruce Springsteen to the replacements. Pitchfork? I mean, lost their goddamn shit, Darcy. This was Wigs blown back. 9.4. What? That's right. That's unbelievable.

I had a thing I wanted to ask you about, Given your particular set of interest, I feel like you'll have an interesting take on this. So the writer of this review, Scott Plagenhoff, says, Finn is less a 21st century Springsteen than he is an American Jarvis Cocker. He's the poet laureate for the U.S.'s have-nots,

in much the same way the pulp singer was for the UK's common people in the 90s. Your thoughts? I feel like that's partially true, but then it's also kind of like, how is he that downtrodron? like he, like maybe emotionally downtrodden, but like socioeconomically. Yeah, I don't know that I agree.

Like, I almost feel like that comparison makes more sense for Isaac Brock, for a modest mouse, who's like more explicitly talking about the like woes of capitalism, whereas I think Craig Finn is not really doing that so explicitly. I mean, I think like it's a byproduct of like what he's talking about, but I don't think it's not what I hear, you know? Yeah, like there's a depression in the lyrics and the music and stuff like that, but I wouldn't say it's like I think that, I mean, it seems like most of the problems in the whole city universe are themselves and like, you know, depression, addiction, drugs, stuff like that.

Right. Yeah, it's like just because you're writing about Midwestern people doesn't mean you're writing about the common people. Yeah. I feel like that's a little. Most people are... A little reductive. Yeah, most people are like betting on horses

and running away from home. Yeah, this is exactly. In Scott Plagenhoff's defense, he also said, unlike Cocker, however, Finn doesn't write angrily, perhaps a telling indication that the stereotypically British self-loading is equitable to the colossal expectations

and lack of discipline of the boys and girls in America. He did say something else interesting in this review, though, that was this. Unlike many of those who've translated big arena-ready guitars into arena-sized audiences. Finn doesn't resort to confidently sung platitudes like, it's a beautiful day,

look at the stars, see how they shine for you, or I'm not okay. This man came for you two, cold play and my chemical romance in one sentence. First of fucking all, yellow is a gorgeous song, and how dare you? It really is. In no way derisive,

but it's like the lyrics that get you into the arenas are more often than not, it's a beautiful day. Onos Tres Cotorce, et cetera. And, you know, not so much, you know, she doesn't have to talk to the dealer. Her boyfriend will talk to the dealer. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, thinking of like red hot chili peppers

at like Madison Square Garden. Not as explicitly. Yeah. It's a big what are the red hot chili that we're talking about situation and I'm here for it. Yeah, but they're still very popular. Like they're not, they're not the, underdog.

No, no, no, no. They're getting nines and pitchfork. Yeah, 9.4. Sometimes music writers really go too hard, I'll tell you. Yeah. They don't have to go, don't have to go too hard, so hard. Let's move on to the next album.

The next album is called Stay Positive. The year of 2008, they had played 200 shows in 2007. Craig Finn is now 37. there's like a bunch of guests on these sessions, which I think wasn't really the case before. I mean, we had some guests at the vocalist, but now we have Jay Maskis,

Emmeline Brodsky, Doug Gillard, who played guitar and guided by voices. Was this like the peak of their fame and popularity, do you think, this album? I think so. It was number one on the UK indie chart, and in the U.S. it hit 30 on the Billboard 200, which is 30 is quite high,

for the hold study. I took a break. So I didn't listen to this until later. Based on like the NPR entire podcast on this, sure, sure, right. I would say that this is like truly beloved. It's also weird how like stay positive 2008, like Obama, you know, whatever.

Oh my God, totally hope, babe. Hope. Let's talk about the song, Stay Positive, because we're going to hear it. It references both, throwback to what we talked about before, the hardcore bands Youth of Today in Seven Second Second Second. Because most kids give me credit for being down with it when it was back in the day, back when things were way different

when the youth of today and the early seven seconds taught me some of life's most valuable lessons. And also references, I'm a sucker for this kind of thing, the first song on the first album in this lyric. Because it's one thing to start it with a positive jam, and it's another thing to see on through. And we couldn't even have done this if it wasn't for you. The fourth wall has been.

Has shattered, babe. Shattered. Sex and the City episode one. That's what's happening here. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I also think, I always think that, like, it's clearly referencing, like, PMA, like, DC, hardcore, whatever. And this is their least, to me, it's, like, their most commercial album.

Or up until then, they keep getting more commercial. Why don't we hear the song? Yeah. This song is called Stay Positive. That was Stay Positive. You know what? I will say at the age of 37, that's when PMA fucking kicks in, babe.

Like at some point, you have to have a better attitude. And it has to be when your hair is graying and your skin is sagging. Because what's to stop you? It's when people are getting back in contact with you when she's like singing about. you know, reminiscing. Right, like your old friends are like, what have you been up to? I would love to know

what Kevin Seconds thought of this song. Me too. I also wonder if they're fan base, not to harp on it too much. It's very, it's maturing and expanding. Producer Dylan said, not to harp on this accord.

Not to harps on this accord. She's fired. Really? Yeah, I mean, it's true. I mean, there's lyrics on here because the kids at the shows, they'll have kids of their own. I mean, we're talking about talking to a different crowd here. We're not talking about Charlemagne dealing drugs anymore. And now we're talking about, like, my high school friends have kids.

How cool. I'm putting words in Craig Finn's mouth. And that's why I wonder if the seven seconds reference is sort of like a... Yeah, but I'm still hip. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because literally, it's literally me 39 years old wearing my descendants t-shirt going to sleep at 9.30. That's the spiritual equivalent of that. I'm like, I'm still cool. Good night. Very much relate to it at age of 31.

Did you choose this song because it was like the most indicative of the album? Yeah. I mean, it is the title track, obviously. It's also, I think, is it my favorite? Maybe. I think it might be. Ask her for Adderall. I love the name of, but I can never remember. Ask her for Adol also feels like a bit of like, we're so cool. We know what the kids are up to. Hello, fellow kids. We know drugs. We know drugs. You're doing Adderall? We know about it.

Sequested in Memphis. That's a really good song. I really like that song. Yes. Some of them don't hit as much, not to be, but like, I, I never put that. on. But I do like that there are some references in it, like to Ivor City, which is a big thing in Separation Sunday. So it's like kind of calling back. Totally. We love a callback. Craig Finn said something in the LA Times that I think you'll enjoy, which is every time we make a record, it's to do something that's just more musical and it's more paying attention, listening more when we're playing. I say that because only one of us, Franz, is a trained musician. So there's stuff like, say, using a harpsichord, or maybe me singing a little more on the new record,

things that I'm not sure we'd have had the confidence to do on the first three records. It's just kind of trying to do something more musical and more ambitious each time, whatever shape that takes, which is kind of like, okay, this is maybe my most closely held opinions, is that this exact sensibility, while I 1,000% support it, because of course, as you go on as a musician, and get better and are more emboldened and more confident and you're going to take risks and try new things makes me dislike the music more as it goes along because what I love is that like tentative, cultish

first few albums energy. I don't know why. It's just what I connect with. I really, it's so hard. Like the beat happening type of like, I don't know. I like things that are more messy. Yeah, it's like, am I happy for you

that you learn to incorporate a saxophone? Absolutely. Like, I support your, I don't want you to not do that, but I, I'm probably not going to like it as much, and that's, like, simply my right as a fan.

Maybe we're not old enough. Maybe as we mature. I'm old enough. I can't wait till the fourth season of this podcast, where I'm like, producer Dylan, hit the harpsichord, babe. We are doing some different. different stuff here. We're podcasting from the forest. There is an orchestra. People

were going to be like, we hate this, but good on you. Speaking of aging, Craig Finn gave a interview to uncut around this year. The major theme of the record is attempting to age gracefully. It's about keeping your youthful ideals alive while the people around you are going through the typical 30-something stuff like having children, family members dying, or relationships ending. Essentially, it's about my struggle to be an adult while being in a rock band. Damn, we nailed it. Wow. Yeah. Who could have seen it coming?

Who could have seen it coming? Oh, I think he gets divorced while they were writing it because of Navy sheets or something? Maybe. I do know something very important happens at this time, which is Tad Kubler and Craig Finn's relationship

is starting to sort of like bear the strain of time and of change, which, you know, tale is old as time in like any band. This is a quote that Tad said, we're total opposites. I'm an open book. I'm very sociable and I like to hang out and enjoy myself.

Craig, on the other hand, is a very complicated guy. He's very private person. There are sometimes moments when I wonder whether we're even friends. Don't get me wrong, I'd walk in traffic with a guy, but we have this strange relationship where we won't say anything to each other for ages,

then suddenly he'll tell me something incredibly personal. At the same time, I think is like, Tad is starting to feel a bit underappreciated, I think, like in terms of like the press coverage about the band, how much it focuses on Craig and like, you know, never really mentions him. Like, he's writing music. And so there's some tensions are a brewing.

That makes sense. This is also maybe not coincidentally coincides with when Tad Kubler gets alcohol-induced pancreatitis. Yeah. Because they've been touring and drinking for, you know, 20 years at this point. It's very bad. And I'm pretty sure

this is when he gets sober. Oh, producer Dylan says he gets sober during the mixing of the next record. So I think this, just to correct ourselves, I think this was... Yeah, this was maybe... There's also a quote here that I think is important

because we talked about it a bit. Finn talks about how he sort of doesn't really name Charlemagne, Holly, and Gideon as much in the narratives on stay positive. I don't think they're ever mentioned at all. And he says, I made a conscious decision not to name them.

I've left it up to the listener to interpret whether they're on it or not. I like the idea of an unreliable narrator. It keeps things open-ended. Plus, I wanted to keep some distance from my characters. I reread a lot of Kerouac again recently. Why? Is there only one book? But like, honestly, is there?

And it reminded me he wasn't really involved in what he wrote about. He was just a recordist. He was a regular guy. That's how I see myself. I love baseball. At weekends, I get together with my friends. We watch sports, wear baseball caps, and eat chicken wings. Yeah, I mean, but you, this is something you've said since the beginning, Darcy.

So I just, like, I wanted to read that because, like, you talked about this juxtaposition of, like, them being, like, salt of the earth, Midwestern, like, exactly what he's saying. Like, I wear a baseball shirt. We watch sports, baseball caps and wings. But then also being this, like, indie rock band that talks about sort of, like, you know, intense. Like a DIY house show. Yeah. And talking about, you know, addiction and and foam parties and drug dealers. And, you know, like, it's an interesting juxtaposition.

Yeah, I mean, he would also wear like a jersey, I think, to shows, which is what tipped me off about the baseball. That's how you were like, hold on a minute. I know what a jersey means. The bravery to wear a sports jersey to a show. Oh, my God. Pitchfork gave this album an 8.4, which, like, still. incredibly high and beloved score.

I'm not going to read the fucking thing, but basically they liked it. Craig Finn does this interview with NPR ahead of the entire podcast, apparently that NPR did about the Holt City, where they talk about how this album is not the first whole study album to address themes of religion and spirituality.

And Finn says that Separation Sunday is like a prodigal daughter story. It's about a girl who grew up in a religious background and goes off to try to find something bigger and better or something that she's missing. So this is kind of like Holly. And you kind of said it earlier. Like the thing about Holly is that she was this person.

He says like he doesn't worry too much about their music becoming too religious or alienating fans. And he says, I think I'm more religious than spiritual. She found very interesting because people usually say the other way around. And then he says, I don't know if I'm that spiritual person. I just like going to church. I wonder if I might be the opposite of Kat Stevens and then be too normal and end up watching too many baseball games and eating too many wings.

Again, with the baseball games, the chicken wings. Well, I wanted to ask you what you think about that. I think as a person that has sort of a vested interest in religion and specifically Catholicism and this band and maybe the intersection of all those things, like, is that something that you get from the music? Because you've talked a lot about these, like, references to Catholicism.

Does it make total sense for you that he would say that he's more religious than spiritual? Yes. That's like a really interesting quote. You know, I'm surrounded by people that are always saying that they're spiritual but not religious. It's like, you know, new age, whatever. Catholicism is so weird. But yeah, it makes sense. It makes a lot of sense to me too because I...

Let's drop in. I hear a lot of the framework, like the scaffolding of religion in these songs, but I don't hear God. Oh, wow. I don't hear a relationship with God. Yeah. Do you? Do you know what I mean? Whereas, like, there's music for sure you hear a relationship with God.

Like, California Cation, back to the ding, dang, dang, dong, dong, ding. That's a fucking sobriety album. That's a higher power album. That's a relationship with God, you know? I think this is more about, as producer Dylan puts it, the tropes and the narratives, the storytelling that exists within religion, specifically Catholicism and Christianity. Totally.

I agree with you that I don't hear that much God in it. I don't hear like the connection and like, I'm thinking of like REMs kind of like stuff. I feel like, I don't know. You too? No, but I'm serious. But yeah, but the storytelling and like growing up in that type of thing and like your parents making you go to church

and you have to sit in the pew and stuff like that. The song that seems most close to God is like how a resurrection really feels. feels like that line where she's like, father, can I tell your congregation how a resurrection really feels? That feels like really, like you've been drinking all night and the sun is coming up and you feel terrible. Right.

Like stuff like that. But I think, you know, I feel like if these characters are conduits for Craig Finn, which like to our point earlier about like how art works, I think we can make that assumption. Like if anything like what I hear is like, like you said like the seeking of God, the search for God, the like absence of God and the wanting it, but like really misguided.

I'm hearing that tension between like the disillusionment of wait, religion let me down or like where is this? Where is God in my life? But then like almost like the hope. that you identified earlier around like maybe the next town will have some character, some soul, that hope

that like, even though there's so much disillusionment about, you know, religion, there's still this hope to connect with God. But it's not happening. You know? Yeah. Like I was told, like, generation after generation, religion has been passed down

and finding that it doesn't, it isn't doing what people say it will do. Like, you're not finding solace in it. I feel like a lot of people with drinking are like looking for that. Totally. Like drugs, for sure. God-sized whole, babe.

Oof, oof. And, like, searching for, like, the perfect combination of stuff, the perfect party, and, like, nothing, like, working is what it reminds to me. Totally. Well, I mean, I think this ties beautiful into the next album, which is called, I'm skipping over the live album, that is called Heaven is Whenever, comes out in 2010. Maybe this was the peak of their,

fame because I'm seeing that this album debuted at 26 on Billboard. Craig is like maybe between 39 and 40, my age. This album, like, what's happening here? Yeah, the Weekenders song. Ends up being the opening credits to some TV show. Also, I didn't mention, by the way, in between this record, the last record is when they actually did tour. with Counting Crows and David Matthews band.

Opening them up to maybe a large new audience. But this album is like less, Craig Finn called it less anthemic. It's very interesting to me because as the band is literally playing arenas now finally, like that's when their music dials down. Yeah. And I wonder if that was related, you know?

Ooh, I wonder. I wonder if it's like, that searching for like looking for like bringing in like writing an anthem and playing it in a small venue and it's a little bit too on the nose to play an anthem in an arena maybe yeah maybe only time can tell he's just a normal guy babe who likes baseball and chicken wings like what is he to do yeah and tours with the crying and crows i want to talk quickly about the sweet part of the city craig fin kind of identified that as a song on here that is like um his favorite song on record. He says, when I listen to Heaven is whenever, I personally get really hung up on like,

are we elder statesmen at this point? Again, they're like 40. A lot of bands don't get to their fifth record. A lot of the songs, they're these weird advice songs. I'm offering advice to people. And I don't really feel like at that time, nor now, nor any time, I'm in the position to have a lot of advice for people on how to live. But I thought I was this older brother kind of telling you how to do things. The shortcoming for me on that record is that tone. It came across preach your self-righteous. sometimes when it should have sounded more lighthearted. But sweet part of the city is one of those that isn't. Do you agree?

That sounds right. Also, I mean, sweet part of the city ends with, We like to pray for you. A little on the nose. Maybe a little condescending. I only, I feel like I only hear it condescendingly like I'm praying for you. Right. Bless your heart.

Bless your heart. I do love We Can Get Together, which is like a little bit calm. It's kind of similar to citrus for me, maybe just because acoustic. Why don't we hear it? we can get together. That was, we can get together. I don't think that was acoustic. I think it was just vibes.

Just vibes. Just the spiritually acoustic. Not religiously. I know, I know music so poorly that I don't even know. Same. Pritia Lund says no acoustic, just vibes. She's rehired. This, you know, we've touched on it here and there,

but like the whole study, again, a lot like Fountains of Wayne, does not shy away from cultural references in their songs. We just talked about it with the Seven Second Seconds and Youth of Today. There's a bunch more in the earlier ones. There's some in the lifter-puller. This one is fucking chalkful. Heaven isn't happening.

I think that's a reference to a Talking Heads song, which is actually just called Heaven, but the line is heaven is a place where nothing ever happens. Heaven is a truck is a pavement song. Heaven is a truck. It got stuck. You called it out, Heavenly, a British band, who did have one song about Pure and Simple Love called Our Love is Heavenly.

The Husker Do You Reference, she said Husker Do Got Huge, but they started in St. Paul, do you remember? Makes no sense at all. Do you remember is what Husker do means in Danish? And makes no sense at all is obviously a Husker do song. Utopia is a band. They sang Love is the answer. Like, this is just like full.

full of referencing other bands. They were really not afraid to do that. Yeah, which is, like, maybe they're doing it their whole time, but, like, I just found out that Charlemagne was an emperor during the schism. Like, maybe they're just stripping everything, like, more present day. I mean, it reminds me of how that quote that Ted said

about how Craig Finn is more private and, you know, reaching to citations instead of pulling from, like, an inside. Well, yeah, it makes sense why he would write about fictional characters as well, you know? Yeah. Speaking of Tad, this is, we said, the album where he gets sober. If things were fishy between the two of them before, this is really when it kind of comes to a head. Also, Franz Nicolet leaves the band in 2010.

He's just like, bye-bye. He says, I'm proud of the work we did together. In the end, I felt like I completed the work I needed. needed to do with them. I'd prefer to think of it as a closed book. He does come back later, but that's how he felt at the time. And they add Steve Selvage in 2011. Tad, by the way, if that was unclear, he didn't leave the band. It's just he's sober now. No one else's, things are getting a little strained. It might be like a growing pains album, maybe just because it's not my favorite album, but like they've been together for a while. It's really a

crap shit though, right? Because like actually a lot of the time when people in a band are not getting along, it yields amazing art. But like in this case, I'll leave it to Pitchfork who said 6.4, which for the pitchfork, towards the hold study is like, I wish you were never born. Trouble in Paradise. In the review they said, meanwhile, the band has graduated to larger venues, festival appearances, and an avid fan base that shouts along with every word. The distance between subject and band has never been greater than it is on this hour. album and these new songs just don't hit his heart. I gotta say I agree. Yeah. Okay, this is something I wanted to read to you a little quote that Craig Finn gave to pitchfork around this time.

Heaven is whenever the Christian version of reward, the ultimate reward of heaven. I guess what I'm trying to say is this is happening every day. We're blessed always. There is struggle and there is suffering in our lives, but understand that this is part of our lives, a part that just is. is a part of the joy of life. Ooh, I like it. Yeah.

I'm not sure if it's specifically Christian idea to me, but... Yeah, that suffering is part of life. I think Buddha has a... I would love to have a bone to pick. I think every religion... Is there something to say? Totally.

I wonder if that realization makes for maybe not as compelling music? I don't know. Ooh, because that means there's less... I would think it means less searching because you know that this like the paradise isn't going to happen and there's some sort of

like living in the present and staying with that which is less dynamic maybe like appreciating the small moment which is not to say it's less rewarding but in terms of what the band has been doing it does seem like

a very definitive change yeah and also just like the departure from what people came to the whole study for and loved about them, which was like these character sketches and this like seedy underbelly of the world, like this is obviously a departure from that. There's one other thing

I want to talk about before we move on, which is in the pitchfork oral history, Tad said this. It's hard for Craig to recognize other people. We were doing a radio show and he says, I'm really glad we got Steve in the band. And it's like, are you fucking kidding me? I love Steve, but I still wrote the songs.

It's so hard for him to recognize anything like that. He loves to withhold. There's humility with Craig, but I always wonder how genuine it is. He's sure to point out there's no animosity between the two, though, or like the Davies brothers. I fucking love that guy. It's just he's a very complex person. It's so interesting to me that like Craig Finn is so good at imagining the motivations and insecurities of fictional people, you know? Like really like making these three-dimensional people with like feelings and thoughts and, you know, dreams.

but apparently maybe has a hard time seeing these same motivations and insecurities in the real people in his life. I mean, like, what an Irish Catholic dad. With the withholding part? Totally. And like, you're at Christmas dinner and someone is like, oh, I'm so glad the cousins came

and you're like, I've been here the whole time. Totally. Yeah, also, like, we hit on this before, but I feel like all the press is about the lyrics and all these storytelling and stuff. And compositionally, the music is like really competent. It's like really good. Totally.

Yeah, it's not that. But he gets, you know, the frontman, stuff like that. It is a little unfortunate because like, yeah, he's the frontman and the lyrics do such heavy lifting in the band. But like they're not doing it alone. You know, like there's the music is something that people love too. Yeah. And the synchronicity between the two where like they write for each other and it works out well. Totally.

Okay, so in 2011, in between hold study records, Craig Finn records a solo album called Clear Heartful Eyes. I will point out that 2011 is also the year that Friday Night Lights ended. I think maybe no coincidence. Who knows? Just like one other note is that to sort of add to the strain, I believe that Craig Finn went to record this album right after they finished touring for Heaven is whenever.

but didn't tell anybody. I didn't tell the rest of the band. And it was supposed to just be a three-month break and it turned it into like a year and a half because he was finishing his album. The next thing that happens is in 2014, they put out the album Teeth Dreams.

Or about 43 years old now, not we, Craig, and Tad. I guess like while Craig was in Austin recording the solo record, Tad started writing songs on his own with the rest of the hold steady. So thusly, music on this album was written completely separately from Craig.

And once again, the like characters in the whole steady universe are sort of absent from this album. What do you feel about this album? Teeth Dreams? Teeth Dreams. It's not my favorite because I like storytelling. I like the references and stuff like this. And this is, you know, straight rock band. No offense, but it's just not my favorite.

That's okay. I think you're allowed. You did choose a song of this. album, On With the Business. Should we hear that song so just people can get a sense of like what you mean by like the more straightforward rock and like maybe you can tell us what you like about this song in particular? Yes. Okay.

This is On With the Business. That was On With the Business. What do you like about that song? I can really hear what you're saying about it being like a little more, even just production wise, a little more like straightforward like rock and roll. Yeah. And I remember when this came out, they had another album on Spotify that was just them talking about the song.

So for me, I was like, oh, they're like a popular band now. Like they're, you know, no longer. Directors cut, if you will. Yeah. And they got into all of it. But I like, there's still some stuff like the alliterations, like prick in the parking lot. Like sometimes I really love, but sometimes they like cringe so hard at this like Craig Finn's specific alliterations that are like trying too hard. Oh, I'll tell you what he did read twice while writing.

the lyrics for teeth dreams. Do you want to take a guess? Oh, did you read on the road? Infinite jest. Oh my God, no. Yeah, that makes sense. It only makes sense. Twice?

Two times. Yeah, but I still like, it's more together. I'm not sure I would have gotten into them if I heard teeth dreams first, but coming from, like, building up towards it and, like, these references,

is, I like it because it's new stuff that's similar to stuff that I like. Does that make sense? Totally. I don't think that as an introduction to them, it would have appealed to me that much. It's also, I think, I don't think the production does them any favors. Yeah. You know, that Foo Fighters type arena rock production, 2014 was again, like rock and roll was St. Vincent, the war on drugs, you know, Cloud Nothings.

This is kind of like what's going on in indie rock. at the time. We don't often talk about bands that are still active on here, so it's interesting to talk about, you know, I think maybe for our purposes we can talk about them, like you like to say, part and parcel, the last two albums, one which came out 2019, like

just pre-pandemic and one which actually came out this year. In 2016, right before, a couple years before, thrashing through the passion, Nikolai comes back, Franz. They start playing sort of residencies, which I think is like a gift

that a band that has that big of the following can have, you know, you don't have to fucking get in the van anymore or the bus or even like slog it through. You can be like, I'm going to sell out three nights at blah, blah, blah, blah, these blah, blah, blah cities. Thrashing through the passion, or in my head it keeps being thrashing through the passion of Christ, comes out in 2019. These last two albums, thrashing through the passion and open door policy,

did you spend much time with these albums? I have not. I just go back to Separation Sunday and almost killed me instead of trying out new things. T-shirt t-shirt t-shirts, there are parts of it that really remind me of their earlier stuff. Like, there are so many references to, like, Americana, like, T-shirts that have tuxedoes on them. Classic.

Classic. Again, the ugliest aesthetic time of my life being those mid-2000s where these were popular. Go on. Oh, yeah. But then I also feel like that's referencing, like, were they popular then? like nostalgically. I assume that like this stuff is like a 1980s,

90s-ish. But maybe I'm inventing that. It's interesting because Craig Finn talks about heaven is whenever and teeth dreams as creative low points for himself. This was in Rolling Stone. But Pitchfork really liked thrashing through the passion,

gave it an 8.0 and sort of like felt that it was like, you know, return to form sort of vibe. like very passionate. Who is this version of the Holt study for, right? Like are they still writing to along the age lines of themselves and they're like fan base who is like aging with them?

Or is this like back to being sort of about youth? Yeah, I feel like it's the former. And when I saw them semi recently, It was one of their shows at Brooklyn Bowl, and usually every year they have a residency or is a tech, I don't know, they play a week-long shows at Brooklyn Ball, and they all sell out. The audience I saw was like, well, first it was me and my friend Bridget, and then it was a bunch of like, I'd say teenagers, like, you know, white 16-year-olds.

And then it was the 30-year-old white men. Sure. It was white men and then some of them were 14 to 19 and then some of them were, I'd say, 40 up. I remember one of them was in a fleece, wearing like a North Face fleece and texting about his like flight the next morning or something. And I was like, wow, this is, and he was playing a lot of separation Sunday. So for me, I felt like a disconnect.

That's really interesting. It's funny that you say that because there is a spin profile in 2020 that specifically references this four show run in 2019 at Brooklyn Bowl that you're talking about. Craig Finn, a guest mentioned on say there's seven people there who had been to all 23 Hold Sedi shows that year. And that there was one guy who was 64 from Tennessee who had first seen the Hold Study live in 2018. So the 60, you know, a three-year-old man comes to the Hold City in 2018 and becomes obsessed, which maybe to our point of like how it's, the music is aging with the creators and the fans, like even more. But then it's like, who are these 14-year-olds? I think you and I, this is no, no feminism has left my body, but feminism has

left my body. Like you and I, I think as women, it's maybe not so enduring for us, right? Like, we have, or I can only speak for myself, I have the same reaction. I was never, you know, part of this, but like listening to the earlier albums, I feel I can connect and I feel like a thing with it. But like listening to the later albums, I don't so much and it's, you know, maybe because I'm not an aging man. I don't know.

I agree with you. I simply enjoy, you know, I'm not going to turn it off, but I'm not going to like go to it immediately. Why don't we hear a song off Open Door Policy, which was their song that came out, I mean, sorry, their album that came out in 2021. So this literally came out this year in February.

Craig's about to turn, 50 and this is really this is that album. You chose me and Magdalena. Just to give people a sense I think of what these last two albums kind of sound like as compared to the rest of the catalog.

This is me and Magdalena. That was me and Magdalena. A lot going on here, Darcy. I don't know. I want to hear what you think about it first before I pontificate. They feel like a different band kind of, but also the same band. Exactly. That's exactly what I was going to say.

It feels very much like like the nucleus of what the hold steady was and like what I liked about those first albums is like really present here. But now it's completely altered. It just, it sounds like 2021. Like there's no mistaking that that song. You couldn't hear that and be like, oh, that came off of Separation Sunday. Yeah. It just seems, I don't want to say mature, but it's like, I like the idea that a band doesn't break up and just keeps going. You know, I always. thought that good music was like a band that doesn't exist anymore. And I like people, you know, aging and continuing to make work and stuff like that.

Totally. So I feel like it's very much that, but then also references to stuff that is been constant throughout the whole discography. It's a very great way to, and I'm not saying N, because who knows if they're going to keep going, but like this might be like the expression that we see of what happens maybe of a band if they don't break up. You know? Yeah.

You're like, you're so yourself. And then you're like, a little bit, not yourself and a little bit over here. And then you're like, wait, we should go back to be ourselves. But then it's like, oh, you can never go, you can never go back.

You can never go home again. You can never go home again. But like you can return to form within a new context, which I feel like that's what open door policy sounds like to me, which is maybe the best possible outcome. That's,

I think that really hits the nail on the head. I will say that the last two albums, I think they're probably easier to put on in a social setting than like maybe Separation Sunday or Almost Killed Me. Because those are too emotionally jarring. They're too real. Not party music. Well, I think much like the whole study,

we've reached at least the conclusion of this discussion. A natural end. A natural end. before we wrap up the show, as always, I wanted to hear from some Hold Steady fans, lifterpillar and Hold Steady fans who are definitely still holding the torch today are very happy that the band is still putting out albums.

Let's hear what they had to say. The Hold Steady were like a one-stop encyclopedic blender of Arena Rock, IMDB, and Trouser Press. Who else? Maybe besides Bob Pollard. could name drop Kate Bush and Iggy Pop song titles, throw in a Minneapolis nod to Mary Tyler Moore, and casually, literally end a song with Tuscan Raiders.

Their sing-along songs have become my scriptures. Their music fills the role that, like, religion once did in my life. They offer songs and lyrics for like guidance, support, even just comfort on every occasion. Little Hood Rat Friend was my gateway drug into the hold steady. I was struck by their clever wordplay, contrasting with the hard riffs of the guitars. There was a story behind it.

There was a purpose to the songs. It all had a reason. The Swish, from Holdsteady's first album, pretty much embodied everything that got me into college radio in the first place. Power Pop Hooks? Clever wordplay? Slacker-esque speak singing? Not to mention a massive dash of arena-ready guitar chords.

Clever wordplay like the elusive tramps like us and we like tramps. Or I love the party favorites. but I hate the party people, continue a Minnesota tradition, a fabulous lyricists, and Craig is one of them. And there's just a sense of community at their shows, which is so beautiful.

People are throwing out confetti that they've brought themselves. People are bringing piano neckties to give to the band, and yelling arm and arm, smashing beers over their heads, just truly in love with the hour and a half of that music. Craig has always looked more like some mainstream straight-edge teacher or engineer than a rock star.

So when he bounces through a show, gesturing at the crowd for two hours, that seals the deal. And I remember when Hold Steady came back to Atlanta the first time, and I told everybody, and they played in front of like 30 people, but then, you know, a few years later, it was in front of hundreds of people. It was just really cool to see something that came from Lyftorpolar became such a huge, huge deal. A devoted fan base who they're there. They're smashing the beers on their heads.

They're bringing offerings of piano key neckties and that lives on. The chips-ahoy box or whatever. RIP brownies though, which I never went to but my boyfriend will talk about that venue. Rest in peace. Yeah.

Well, Darcy, thank you so much for joining me to discuss lifter-puller and the hold study. I'm sure it made many men extremely pleased and happy to listen to two gals goss it up about Girl talk projects. Well, girl talk. Before we close out, do you want to choose one last either lift or puller or hold steady song to carry us out into the night? You know what? I do. Cool NYC. Let's do cool NYC. Okay. Let's hear cool NYC. Okay. Let's hear cool NYC.

Come back every Thursday for a new episode of Bandsplain only on Spotify. This is Cool, NYC. If you liked what you heard today, subscribe for more episodes of Bandsplaine, only on Spotify. Our guest today was Darcy Wilder. Follow her on Twitter at 333333-34-33333333. And pick up her book, literally show me a healthy person. Anywhere fine books are sold. Huge, huge thanks to the hold steady and lifter-puller mega fans you heard on this episode.

Andy Holmoss, Brendan Hay, Paul Inge Brutson, Matthew Weaver, and Jeremy Levy. Bansplane is a Spotify original show. This episode was produced by The Puller to My Lifter, producer Dylan, aka Dylan Tupper Rupert, and edited by Nico Paolela with help from Casey Simonson and Tari Miller. Executive producers for Bansplaine are Gina Delvac and me, Yossi, Sala. Her gorgeous and catchy theme song was composed in Perkinson. performed by Bethany Costantino and Jennifer Claven and graciously recorded

by Carlos de la Garza in Los Angeles California. Special thanks to Philippe Giermino, Robert Adler, Leah Edwards, David McDenna, Dana Meyerson, Jessica Hopper, and Cinespace Circa 2004. If you know, you know. Come back every Thursday for a new

episode of Bansplain, only on Spotify. Okay, so I got your test results and it's going to be very difficult for you to work for anybody else like ever in your life and I was like baby I did not need an 80 page test to tell me that thanks for your feedback