Bandsplain - Madonna: Part 1 With Mel Ottenberg

Episode Date: May 7, 2026

Yasi kicks off Bandsplain’s multipart Madonna epic with returning guest and fashion icon Mel Ottenberg. They discuss Madonna’s childhood and upbringing in Michigan, her dance career and the formative relationships that led her to New York City, her history playing in bands, her immersion in the club scene, the breakthrough singles that made her impossible to ignore, her first three albums, and all the major collaborators, major looks, and major breakthroughs along the way. Episode PlaylistListen to the Madonna: Part 1 playlist here. CREDITS:Host: Yasi Salek @yasisalekGuest: Mel Ottenberg @melzy917Producer: Rob SundermannEditor: Adrian BridgesAdditional Production Supervision: Justin SaylesTheme Song: Bethany Cosentino Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's with this band anyway? I don't get it. Can you please explain? Wait, like, Bansplain? Hello and welcome to Bandsplain. I am your host, Yossi Salik. This is a show where I invite an expert guest on to help me explain a cult band or iconic artist. Today's episode is part one of four episodes about maybe the most iconic artist of all, Madonna. If you've never heard Madonna, hey.

What? Listen. You guys, my guest today, repeat Bansplanner, legend in his own right. Third time on. Third time, three Pete. Editor-in-chief of the little magazine you might have heard of called Interview. It's Mill Ottenberg. Hello.

And thank you so much for having me on Bansplaine to talk about Madonna. I'm so happy to have you here. I'm so happy to be doing this in person for the first time. Yes. I flew out to Hollywood all. on the Concord this morning just for this, and I'm ready to go. They brought the Concord back for you just for this podcast. Yes, they did.

And we're really ready to party. Well, before we get into it, just have a quick... Is it a disclaimer? I don't know. It's a thing. It's a statement. Let's just be clear. This is not necessarily for the members card-carrying Madonna Brotherhood and Sisterhood,

the icons, the wannabes. I don't know what the Madonna fan base is. like officially called. I don't either. I don't think there is a name. You guys, I think probably already know all of this. And don't be fucking assholes

to Yasi Salick because you disagree with like some chronological thing she's doing. She worked her motherfucking ass off to get this podcast together. We were saying she's going to have to go, does she have to go into hiding after this podcast comes out?

No. Witness protection. Just this, this is for normal straight men. You guys made all the resources that I use to research this episode, the Madonna Van Arme, I'm gonna say it off the top. Today in Madonna history, thank you.

Madonnapedia, Madonna Underground, Madonna Tribe, the Inside the Groove podcast. Obviously, Encyclopedia, Madonna. My personal favorite. So just saying, thank you for your input. And of course, I couldn't have done this without Mary Gabriel's incredible book. Thank you, Mary Gabriel.

It is a great book. Madonna, a Rebel Life. If you guys haven't read it, it's like the war and peace of the life of Madonna. Before we like die, I really dive in, dive in, like, off the board of the pool of Madonna. Do you want to give it a little, like, brief story time of your, like, first encounters with Madonna as a young person? This isn't the first encounter, but the one that comes to mine.

I can visualize the Lucky Star video. I can visualize a borderline video. I can remember hearing a material girl for the first time. But the thing that really does it for me and makes me such a die hard forever I'm in Nantucket it's the summer of 1986 there's like a scratchy small television in front of a big like glass door as a sun setting and entertainment tonight is on and they're showing that Madonna's new video Papa Don't preach happen. So I just remember seeing like with everyone else in history seeing like a real legend be born when you like strip away the the one look and then you have have a whole new look and you change the world like that. You know what I'm saying?

That was our first major, I think, aesthetic change. Yes. And that to me was when she just went from really fucking cool to Godlike. And I remember it on this, it was like a really scratchy, like little TV. Like I don't think little TVs like that are even made any Moriossi. And it was scratchy, you know, local. Rabbit ears. No cable here.

Yeah. And I got it was on. No Hulu. But that, the power of that memory. is what has made me a lifelong Madonna obsessive. And also lots of great music and lots of great imagery and videos and not giving a fuck and just really, really, really making people mad. Yeah, I love it.

I don't want to be hyperbolic, but people who have listened to the podcast have heard me talk about this, Madonna was the first music I ever heard in my life. Wow. My mom was obsessed with Madonna. Okay. And my first memory of their being a music artist in the world is Madonna. We would watch the videos together. We would tape them off the VH1 and MTV onto VHS tapes.

We would listen to it in the car since I was like three years old. Like this was, it's in my DNA. It shaped my world. So I don't remember a world pre-Madonna. The world for me pre-Madonna doesn't really matter. Yeah. It's all BM and AM. Yes.

But yeah, I couldn't be more excited to talk about this. And also because my parents were kind of strict because they're like, you know, Iranian immigrants. But around Madonna, there was like no rules. There was weirdly like it was strict like you can't spend the night at your friend's house. But it was like, we're going to watch like basic instinct at home and you're nine. Then that's fine. And they also let me have the Madonna poster from the sex book where she's like hitchhiking. nude in the heels with like a cigarette like on my wall and again i'm like 10 years old like they're like

that's fine madonna was there don't know about my dad but definitely from my mother she was that's i worship at the she worshiped the altar of madonna that's beautiful thank you my shout out to my mom who i believe her favorite song is dress you up in my love wow that's that's not the title it's just called dress you up, but I can't do it without the full sentence. Okay, let's get into it. Let's. Madonna Louise, Veronica Chiconi. Wow. Veronica is her Catholic confirmation name after St. Veronica, who, quote, wiped the

face of Jesus and then carried around the cloth with his blood and sweat on it. She said, that was so passionate and weird. She loved it. She's born in Bay City, Michigan on August 16, 1958, a Leo son, a Virgo, moon, which makes total sense, given the work ethic. Rising, I think, is a point of contention, but she has self-reported in several interviews that she's in Aquarius Rising, which also kind of makes sense to me. Her chart to me is like the perfect pop star chart. Leo, obviously, like, you shine like the sun, you love attention, you're bright, you know.

Virgo is all about hard work and like results and ambition. And Aquarius is the one that is like, I do my own thing. I don't care what anyone thinks. Like, I marched to the beat of my own drum. Her father's name Silvio Tony, as he went by Chaconi, and her mother also named Madonna, Madonna Louise Fortin. They were 24 and 22 when they got married in 1955. They moved to Pontiac, Michigan.

Tony was born to Italian immigrant parents from Pachentro in Ebrzzo. I'm not good at Italian accents. He was one of only six kids who went to college. He joined the Air Force to go to college. Madonna, senior, her mother, was born of French-Canadian parents and raised in Bay City. It's so interesting to me because I would have thought an Italian person would be named Madonna,

but not a French-Canadian person, right? We don't think of Madonna as having Canadian in her. I know. French-Canadian. words they don't seem real but they are the italian part is really obviously part of the mythology but you don't get a lot of the quebecua or whatever i don't know if they're quebecua but french canadian it's pretty shocking anyways she our madonna was the first girl in the family she was born third after two elder brothers anthony and martin they called her nani as a little girl and her

sister paula was born a year later and then her little brother christopher a year after that by all accounts Their home was very loving, very chaotic, because there was lots of kids, and also very religious. Madonna said, I grew up with a mother who was devoutly Catholic, and I saw her doing things that really affected me. She would kneel on uncooked rice and pray during length. Sorry, quick sidebar, you need to tell you that back when I used to write things for magazines, RIP, my career, not magazines that are thriving in your life. I went to do a story about kink.com. It was a porn website that specialized in, like, kink. So, but they had bought this, like, armory in San Francisco where they recorded everything.

And it was, like, a castle with, it was just really crazy. And I went there to do this story. And we were going through the, like, supply room, the warehouse. And I was like, okay, they had an actual iron maiden. They had, like, all this crazy stuff. And then I just got to these bins of rice. And I was like, I'm so sorry. I don't.

What are these for? And they were like people, they make people kneel in them. Because kneeling in rice is like a devoutly Catholic thing. It's just painful. It's like it inflicts pain because the rice kernels are hard. And between you and your flesh and the hard ground, it just digs into your flesh. Madonna's senior sounds sort of like she's giving Carrie's mom. Oh, interesting.

You know what I'm saying? But for all the things that have been reported via Madonna and Christopher who have spoken with her mom, She was like very loving and kind and not like, you know, crazy strict with them or anything. She just was very pious. It is really interesting, though, and we're going to obviously get into the Catholicism throughout. But the like the sort of like juxtaposition of Catholic self-pane infliction as punishment or like a way to be close to God and like S&M. Interesting. She said that at home, Madonna said, the first records I used to listen to were twist.

like 1960s twist records. And I would do the limbo to chubby checkers records, you know, like go under a broom. And my mother and father used to twist all the time, believe it or not. When Madonna Sr. was 28 and pregnant with her sixth child, she was diagnosed with breast cancer. That sucks. I know. 28, so young. Six children already. Apparently, and this is like not proven or, you know, it's not canon, but she had worked for a long time as an x-ray. technician and apparently back then they didn't know the ramifications of being exposed to that much

radiation and so it's possible that was a cause but you know obviously that's terrible yeah so in december of 1962 she passed away um i think madonna was i think she was my head just turned five maybe she was very young she was very young yes i think madonna said i think she had a lot of strength i didn't notice that as much when i was younger but looking back on it she was ill for a long time and she never allowed herself any sort of self-pity, you know. And we really tortured her when she was sick because we wanted her to play with us. We wanted her to do things when she was tired.

We picked on her all the time because we just didn't understand. But I don't think she ever allowed herself to wallow in the tragedy of her situation. So in that respect, I think she gave me an incredible lesson. That was in trivia magazine in 1989. I think that's important. If you subscribe to the theory that, like, your whole personality and the way you view the world,

subconsciously is kind of set in stone by the time you're like 10 years old because of what you experience in your childhood, that's like a major thread of someone's subconscious to be like, you suffer and you don't complain. Like you just get on with it, you know? Yes. Right. Because she would always be like, how could Madonna do what she's done? Okay, she did it by watching this. Yeah, I think that was, that's like an important building block. Also, and she talks about this a lot throughout her career and we'll read quotes as they come up, but she said it here, like, what fuels my ambition is the desire to be heard and to find my mother, I suppose. I think this idea of wanting to be loved and this blank space of love in your life that would have or should

have been filled by your mother being removed creates this vacuum, right? And it's like, well, I'm going to be loved by everybody then. I hear that. All right. Her father, though, left to raise six kids. Madonna said, my father was very strong. I don't agree with some of his values, but he did have integrity, and if he told us not to do something, he didn't do it either. A lot of parents tell our kids not to smoke cigarettes, and they smoke cigarettes, or they give you some idea of sexual modesty.

But my father lived that way. He believed that making love to someone is a very sacred thing, and it shouldn't happen until after you're married. He stuck by those beliefs, and that represented a very strong person to me. He was my role model. It was in Time magazine. Oh, father. Oh, father. For months after her mom died, her father would, like, move the children around.

I mean, obviously, he was probably so overwhelmed, right? He's one guy. He's, like, 30 years old. He has a job. So he would move the children around, like, family members' homes, neighbors' homes. And then he started hiring housekeepers to help keep the house, but also raise the kids. According to a bunch of interviews, it was Madonna who had to kind of step up as the oldest daughter. and take care of the smaller kids.

I cried and cried and cried all day until the neighbors went away. It was very traumatizing. Okay, got it. Yeah, I'm sure it was trauma. Imagine being that young, and then not only, like, you don't understand death, you don't understand that your mother's not there anymore.

Also, now you're, like, have to dress smaller children and make sure they get to school, and you're, like, seven or eight years old. That sucks. and cried and cried until the neighbors went away. Here's another father. Oh, father.

Shaping this personality. In the Mary Gabriel book, there's a quote from her. I don't know where it came from, but she says, he didn't like us to have any idle time. If we didn't have schoolwork to do, he found work for us to do around the house.

He thought we should always be productive. Always be productive. The Madonna Chaconi story. Yes. Anyways, in 1966, Tony Shikoni ends up marrying one of the housekeepers, a 23-year-old woman named Joan Gustavson, and she became their stepmother. According to that Mary Gabriel book, Madonna's mother's side of the family, the Fortin family,

were very furious over this, and they always called her the maid, even when they were married. I think they are maybe still married. She just recently died. But Tony Shikone is alive. Tony Shikone is alive. It's wild. He must be like 98 years old. And, yeah, she was like the wicked set mother, right?

I mean, there's multiple accounts. That's how Madonna felt with her. She said, I never liked my stepmother. She was really hard, strict, and disciplined. And then in Time magazine she said, I don't really want to talk about my stepmother. I was the oldest girl, so I had a lot of adult responsibilities. I feel like my adolescence was spent taking care of babies and changing diapers and babysitting. I have to say I resented it.

Because when all my friends were out playing, I felt like I had all these adult responsibilities. That's when I really thought about how I wanted to do something else and get away. from all of that. I really saw myself as the quintessential Cinderella. You know, I have this stepmother, and I have all this work to do, and it's awful, and I never go out, and I don't have pretty dresses. The thing I hated about my sisters most was my

stepmother insisted on buying us the same dresses. I would do everything not to look like them. Another pinnacle of the personality. I want to have my own style. I want to look different. I would wear weird color knee socks or put bows on my hair

or anything. I also went to Catholic school, so I had to wear uniforms that were drab. I guess that was at the beginning of my style. Here we go. Here we fucking go, babe. Okay, another thing that I think is very interesting if we're building the cornerstone blocks of Madonna's, maybe, you know, driving forces,

as she said she learned early on how to use her femininity to get what she wanted. So she said from an early age, I knew that being a girl and being charming in a feminine way could get me many things. I squeezed everything I could out of it. She said that to the face. And then to record magazine, she said,

I really do remember from when I was very, very young, being really attracted to men and being real flirtatious. The power of my femininity and charm. I remember it was just something I had that I'd been given. You know what I mean? From the age of five, I remember being able to affect people that way. I felt something, but I didn't know what to do with it. I was just very aware of it.

She used that charm and her sense of humor and everything to, like, get what was in limited supply at her house, which is attention. You know, you have one dad, six children, about to be eight, because Joan also has two more children with her dad. Very little attention to go around. And so to get it, you have to kind of like put on a show, you know? And I think she would talk about that where she would have like,

would like stand on the table and like lift her dress and like whatever. And like, dad, you know, it's very, it's very keep it together, Bim. It's very, I got brothers. I got sisters too, stuck in the middle. Tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to get out of here. I'm going to leave this place so I can forget every single. When they were younger, as a family, they lived in a really, like, integrated neighborhood that had a bunch of African-American families in it as well.

And they were one of the only white families. And she said there was like all these yard dances in the backyards and all these little like 45 turntables and stacks of records and everyone was dancing and playing these Motown records, Supremes and girl groups. And like she was very like into that, which we'll hear obviously in some forthcoming music. And she studied piano because her father made everyone do a musical thing, but she hated it. All right. In 1969, Joan has another baby, Mario. There was, like, a lot of riots, urban, you know, conflict happening in the Detroit area at this time. And the family joined the White Flight to go out to Rochester Hills.

And they had been going to St. Andrews Catholic Elementary School, which obviously also deeply impacted young Madonna Catholic school because she had to read the uniform and all the stuff and the nuns. Actually, this was a great quote, probably around the same time as I began to rebel against the church and my family, my breasts started to grow. So right around that time was when I really started to think about sex, about its presence, not about what I was going to do about it. But in 1970, the state of Michigan banned state aid to private schools, which meant the Shikoni kids stopped going to Catholic school because there's six of them. And, That would cost too much money, so they went to public school.

West junior high, no uniforms. This was good for Madonna because she likes to wear cool clothes, but bad for Madonna because her family was not wealthy. And she said she started to really notice the differences between the rich kids and herself. She said the angriest time in my life, I'd have to say, was that in my teen years, like when I was out in junior high until I graduated from high school. Actually, I sort of meled out towards my last year because I finally figured out what I was going to do with my weird. old self. Did you read that that she had to, she was cleaning, oh maybe that's in high school, that she started cleaning

houses as a job, and she had to clean her, like, classmates' houses. Wow, I did read that. Really crazy. All right, Madonna's starting to get into more music now. She's in junior high. She loves Stevie Wonder. She loves Marvin Gay. She loves the Jackson Five. I love that she loves a letter by the box top. Shout out Alex Chilton.

Sugar, Sugar by the Archies. Oh, I love Sugar, Sugar. Who doesn't, babe? Oh. Honey, honey. Don, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. Yeah, she loved the carpenters, too. Yes, love the carpenter. So she loves the motel.

She loves the black sound. Yeah. She loves the schmaltzy, soft stuff. Same. It's all going to come into play, too. Okay, important moment in her performance career. The West Junior High 8th grade talent show. Oh, my God.

That all goes down. I would love if we had video of this, and unfortunately we don't. They wore tiny shorts and tank tops and covered their body and fluorescent body paint in neon green and pink with. flowers and hearts and did a fairly maybe, quote, sexual dance. And according to Christopher's book, their father was in the crowd. And he said, quote, according to his strict moral code, her appearance is utterly X-rated. And he puts down the camera he was filming in horror.

That was not good. Madonna got in trouble. He said that the performance was the most scandalous one that anyone has ever seen in this conservative community. serious reprimands happened yossi serious reprimands babe and then also after that christopher said all the kids would come up to him be like your sister's a slut yeah it's terrible grounded for two weeks that's right and then shipped off to grandma's house in bay city and this is when the fucking magic happened babe thank god they thought they were punishing her sending her to grandma's house no man grandma was chill grandma let her hang out with boys grandma let her drink beer okay grandma was like you could stay out late Her uncles had a rock and roll band and they practiced in the garage and smoked pot and chilled

and she would chill with them. So great. Thank God. I know. Start plucking her eyebrows. All right, it's time for high school. Rochester Adams High School in 1972, one of the best public high schools in the state,

a lot of rich kids. This is when she was cleaning the houses of the classmates and she really hated it. This is like a start of a thing that I think we're going to return to over and over again. when we talk about Madonna, she was two things at once. So she was a cheerleader, and she was obviously beautiful and, like, kind of, I guess, in a way of things that you would describe to the popular girl. But she also felt like a total weirdo and felt isolated. So she said,

in my school there were the hippies, the more free group, the guys who had long hair and took a lot of jewelry and shop classes and smoked a lot of pot during lunch hour. I didn't identify with them because I thought they were extremely lazy. Then there was the jock group, and they were drunk on beer every day. I was a cheerleader for a little while, but I couldn't get into it anymore. It wasn't that I wasn't interested in sports. It's just that I couldn't agree with the sensibilities of the cheerleaders and the athletes. See, I had this idea that everybody went to school with blinders on their eyes in junior high

in high school, and it really pissed me off. For some reason, don't ask me how, because my parents weren't worldly, and I didn't know many people who were. I was just sure everybody was missing something. I couldn't identify with anyone, so I just wandered around aimlessly. You think she was popular? She would never say she was popular. You think she was like closet popular? No, I mean, I just feel like if you're beautiful and a cheerleader, you have a modicum of social currency.

That's all. I don't think she was like an outcast. Right. And if she was an outcast, it sounds like it was self-imposed because she was like, y'all are lame. Yeah, your guys are losers. And I'm getting out of here. You're lazy pothead beer drinkers. Famously, Madonna was not really a participator.

Yes. Many vices like that. Right. She was in French club. She was a lifeguard. She sang in the school choir, and she volunteered in a program for disadvantaged children, and she got straight days. None of this is surprising. Nope.

It's that Virgo moon. Okay, this is so interesting to me. She had a classmate named Wyn Cooper. He, uh, remembers her taking herself more seriously than everyone did at our age. When she was a freshman, he wanted to make a film and asked her to be in it. It was called egg. It's one minute long.

It's 8mm silent and she eats a raw egg. It sounds so good. I wish we could see it. Me too. Well, Win Cooper, by the way, wrote a poem called Fun that was later turned into a song called All I Want to Do by Shell Crow. Oh, incredible. Isn't that amazing? Yeah, that is.

That was her classmate. All right. In 1974, she gets really into Joni Mitchell. I think this is important, right? Yeah, because there's, because us Madonna heads know there's many different types, there's always folksy stuff. We remember all the dancey stuff and the big stuff, but there was a lot of folksy stuff. A lot of folksy stuff. There's a lot of guitar stuff.

A lot of guitar stuff. And also, I think Joni Mitchell may be best known for being a very early confessional, I'm writing about myself songwriter. And you'll see from the beginning when we start talking about Madonna, like, obviously very early on she had some songs that were not touched by her hand. but pretty much as soon as she could, she's writing those lyrics, and those are her experiences and her words. I see a connection with, like, the songwriting types of stuff where you're, like, listening to the stuff,

and it's not, it's not, like, so clear what they're talking about. No, no, exactly. Because they're really on some trip, and they're just these really goddess women that are not basic bitches, you know, like we are. Speak for yourself, him. And so they're really, they're just on some really, high frequency talking about their lives.

Also, the thing that I think people should know about Madonna, if they don't know, is she was a really heavy reader. Yeah. Loved F. Scott Fitzgerald, loved Hemingway, Flannery O'Connor, J.D. Salinger. She later told Norman Mailer, which is one of the best interviews ever, it will be in part too because that's when it happened, but you guys should really read it. It was an Esquire. She told Norman Mailer that reading J.D. Salinger gave me license to behave

eccentricly in a way and made me feel comfortable in being precocious. That was one of my favorite quotes in this whole giant dossier that you put together. The 70-page Google Doc that I shared with you. It's so good, right? Because it's like, I love the idea of young Madonna reading Catcher in the Rye and being like, oh, like, I kind of feel like that too. Like it's right there in what she just said about her classmates, how she felt like, I don't, I don't fuck with you guys, I don't get you guys, you know?

Like, that's very Holden-Clawfield. All right, 1974, major alert, 911. Enter Christopher Flynn. That's right, babe. The gays have entered the room. The gays have entered the chat. Thank God. Life is about, life will never be the same.

Every woman remembers when their first gay came into their life. I love that. And if you haven't had a gay come into your life, babe. There's time. There's time. Yeah, that's true. Don't give up. It's dark, baby.

But it's like you're sitting in the dark and the light's going to be turned on. What do you know about? Christopher Flynn, Mel. He was a dancer. Yes. He was a dance teacher. Correct. He was cool.

Yeah. He was worldly. Like, he knew what was up, and he changed Madonna's life. Totally. I think he had been at Harvard, I believe. He was, like, quite, like, elevated, skilled. That was the same year she lost her virginity that she met Christopher Flynn. She said, the first boy I ever slept with had been my boyfriend for a long time, and I was in love with him.

so I didn't understand where it all came from. I would hear words like slut. I was called those names when I was still a virgin. I didn't fit in, and that's when I got into dancing. I shut off from all that, and I escaped. Okay, so Christopher Flynn had a dance studio in downtown Rochester Hills. He was her father's age. She discovered him through another girl in the 10th grade.

She said, when I was in the 10th grade, I knew a girl who was a serious ballet dancer. She looked really smarter than your average girl, but in an interesting offbeat way. So I attached myself to her, and she brought me to a ballet class. That's where I met Christopher Flynn, who saved me from my high school turmoil. She told her dad, I want to take value classes. And he was like, cool, get a job. And so she did. She got a job.

Paid for herself to go. There's a great TV documentary series called Naked Ambition. Have you ever seen it? I have not. Okay. It's pretty fab. It must be pretty early on. It looks like it's like maybe 1990 or late 80s.

They interview Christopher Flynn in it. And he's like, so he's just like sitting in a cool apartment, smoking a cigarette, like talking about this. But he's like, yeah, she was like barely out of adolescence, had like this dishwasher brought hair, nothing special. And he remembers her coming in carrying like a huge doll and just like looking really childlike. Yes. I write the two-foot doll. I really also like to see the doll. That is the quote that Mary Gabriel has in the book is from that documentary.

I would have liked to see the doll too. where are the photos? But he said she was a blank page, believe me, she desperately wanted to be filled in. She had this burning desire to learn. She had a thirst for learning that was insatiable. It was something that would not be denied. Yes. As you say, what do

you say? We used to be a... Proper country. Yeah, we used to be a proper country. That's so true. But she's talking... We're talking about real greatness here. We're talking about the beginning of real greatness. Right. Nothing's great anymore, Yassie. Oh.

No, we're... We suck. We're terrible. We're never going to be as good as Madonna, and that's okay. I just want you to know that I am drinking Celsius and have not left my computer for three and a half weeks. So, like, I, too, am pursuing greatness in perhaps a different realm than Madonna. Yes, you are. But I'm devoted. I work hard, too. Yeah.

She's on another level. Yeah, when we're reading about this, it's really interesting. Like, oh, my gosh, it really is interesting. It's so interesting. Yeah. But also, I like that she was like, I'm Cinderella, and I'm finding, I don't need a man to make me. Oh, yeah. The princess queen, I will be.

Yeah, right? She's just, she's, it's never about a man. It seems to me that men are auxiliary, you know, like, accessories to the story. They're not ever the main course. I'm not saying that it's not about. No, but it was like, I dream of, of like meeting Prince Charming and settling down.

Like that was not like a dream, as far as we know. It's never, none of these interviews talk about that. She wants to rule the world. She wants to rule the world, famously. Okay, so Christopher Flynn opens the world up for her, right? He's worldly, he's artistic, he takes her to museums, he tells her about art. She said, I'd say that after my father, the most powerful, important relationship of my life was with Christopher Flynn, who was my ballet teacher, who was gay. I didn't understand the concept of gay at that time.

I was probably 12 or 13 years old. All I knew was that my ballet teacher was different from everybody else. He was so alive. He had a certain theatricality about him. He made you proud of yourself, just the way he came up to me and put my face in his hand and said, You are beautiful. No one had woken up that part of me yet. She said in a different interview that no one had ever told her she was beautiful until that moment.

Maybe she, no, she looked so good. Any picture you see of her young. Stuner. She looks incredible. Yeah. Okay. So dance. Yes.

Dance opens her up, babe. We are, we have purpose. Harry Dean Stanton. This is the interview you were talking about with Harry Dean Stanton, 1985. He said, I think the dancing you did gave you tremendous discipline. And she said, exactly. That was the first thing, the devotion to that and realizing that I could go from being unmolded clay. And over time, and with a lot of work and with people helping me, I could turn myself into something else.

I have the chills. I could turn myself into something else. That's also part of the Madonna core principles, right? Absolutely. We'll talk about it later, but I think it's a famous thing that a lot of people know. Madonna's maybe most cherished Cherished Don't you dare fucking come for cherish

Piece of art is the Frida Kahlo My Birth, right? For a long time, I don't know if she still does would travel with it Like wherever she, because it's a small piece of art She'd take it everywhere. And my birth is this crazy piece of art

with It's Frida Kahlo being born as an adult. It's pretty unnerving But, like, there's a great interview with Grill Marcus. He's in this naked ambition documentary he's talking about. He was like, the idea that you couldn't be born as an adult means that you can continuously be reborn and reborn. And this was obviously something really important to Madonna. It makes so much sense that she has such a connection with that painting.

I could turn myself into something else. Amen. Before I started feeling devoted to dancing. I really didn't like myself that much. I didn't think I was beautiful or talented. I spent a lot of time loathing myself and not feeling like I fit in and hating the authority of my parents

like every adolescent does. When I started having a dream and working towards that goal, having tons of discipline, I started to really like myself for the first time. And that just carried over into everything. She also saw David Bowie for the first time this year. Imagine this is all in one year.

You lose your Virginia, you meet the most important gay man of your whole life, and you see David Bowie? Life change. And it's diamond dogs. And it's fucking diamond dogs. Yeah. And she said about that, I recognized myself in him somehow, and he gave me license to dream a different future for myself.

Ooh, she went with Win Cooper. All I want to do is have some fun guy. In 1975, she's a new girl, babe. It's all different. According to Christopher Chacon's, no more cute clothes. Black sweats. I'm a dancer. I'm serious.

I do not wear makeup. I do not shave my armpits. I am dedicated to dance. Incredible. Rochester Hills, Michigan. I am a dancer. Madonna said, I thought it was cooler

to not shave my legs or my under my arms. I mean, why did God give us hair there anyways? Why didn't guys have to shave there? Why was it accepted in Europe, but not in America? No one could answer my questions

in a satisfactory manner, so I pushed the envelope even further. I refused to wear makeup and tied scarves around my head like a Russian peasant. I did the opposite of what all the other girls were doing, and I turned myself into a real man repeller.

I dared people to like me and my nonconformity. Fabulous. So fucking cool. Okay, so she turns 16. She gets her driver's license and a 1966 Mustang. Nice. Can you fucking, that's so cool.

Although I was thinking about it and I was like a 1966 Mustang in the 70s is just like a 10 year old call. Probably it's like not so cool maybe. I don't know. I'm sure it was still cool. Let's look it up. Oh. God damn. Look at that thing.

Should we get one? I think it's cool. I think it's still cool. Even then it was cool. Yeah. It's just fucking cool. Yeah, I agree. It was red.

God damn, it's cool. So she's confident now. It's so fucking cool, man. There's nothing cooler than that. Her stepmother stopped making her do chores, according to Christopher, because she was like, no. I'm my own woman now. In one instance, again, Christopher's book said,

that they fought and Joan slapped her and Madonna slapped her ass right back. Damn. According to Christopher. Meanwhile, the other Christopher in her life, Christopher Flynn, was like, guess what? We're going to the disco, babe. You ever been to disco? We're going to Menjos.

First Detroit disco that featured a DJ mixing records. Wow. It was on Six Mile Road, and it was the epicenter of gay life in Detroit. Madonna said, I'd never been to a club and only been to high school dances, and no guys would ever ask me to dance because they thought I was insane. So I'd just go out and dance by myself. In school and in my neighborhood and everything, I felt like such an outsider, a misfit, a weirdo. And suddenly when I went to the gay club, I didn't feel that way anymore.

I just felt at home. I had a whole new sense of myself. This is the age that I started sneaking out and going to clubs, too. Gay clubs? Yeah, like 16. Amazing. This, I think, is another building block, right? Yeah.

I feel at home at the club. Yeah, a whole new sense of herself. Yeah. I started spending time with a lot of dancers, and almost every male dancer I knew was gay. So I went through another kind of feeling inadequate because I was constantly falling in love with gay men. Of course, I was so miserable that I wasn't a man. Her eyes are opened. Yeah, yeah.

She's cooking. She's cooking. She's seeing art. She's seeing the disco. Men were doing poppers and going crazy. They were all dressed really well and were more free about themselves than all the blockhead football players I met in high school. Babe, who amongst us? That's the other, again, if you haven't had a gay man into your life, I'm going to warn you.

The first thing that's going to happen is you're going to be like, what the fuck, man? And I have to date straight guys, like, have never seen a gym in their life and they dress like this. And then there's all these gorgeous gay men who are like so beautiful and so devoted to their physiques and how they look. And you're just like, this is stupid. Did she finish his high school? Finally. Yeah, a semester early because she's like, I want to devote myself full time to dance in my last semester. And Christopher Flynn had been hired to teach at the University of Michigan at the new dance department.

And they get Madonna to audition for the program. And she does. and she gets a four-year dance scholarship to the U of M. First one of her siblings to go to college. Apparently Martin and is it Anthony, the other older brother? I think so. Bad boys. Yeah.

They're partiers. So she goes to college and does the college thing. She's into film. She's into poetry. She's watching Pasolini. She's watching Buneo. She's watching English Kitchen Sink dramas. Shout out, Morrissey.

And reading Anne Sexton and Sylvia Plath. like very college, college hours. Again, not shaving your armpits. And she's on a mission to get attention. I was a real ham, she said. I did everything I could to get attention and be the opposite of everyone else. I'd rip my leotards and wear teeny little safety pins. And I'd run my tights.

I could have gone to a nightclub right after class. And she did. She found the Ann Arbor Gay Club, the Ribuat. They called the Rube. And then she auditioned for her dream summer program in New York. Did she get in? She did, babe. She got a scholarship, and then she had to figure out how to get there.

So a local hairdresser drove her there. Thank you. It's the summer of Sam murders summer, that summer, 1977. Crime is rampant. Unprecedented levels of crime. That's right. But what? She loved it.

You're reading my daughter. She loved it. She said, once I got a taste of New York, I knew I had to be there. You know the feeling. I do. I do. I know the feeling. But then she had to go back to Ann Arbor after the summer. And she got a new roommate, Whitney Stratrachian,

who was a girl who was actually from New York City, whose father was a stage actor named Ed. And they were broke, babe, but they were loving life. They're sweeping ice cream. They're modeling for life drawing classes. They're having a great time. In December of 1977, another really important man comes into her life. A 21-year-old bartender at the bar around the corner from their apartment

called the Blue Frog. His name was Stephen Bray. Yeah, Stephen Bray, you've never heard of him before, but he's really important and you know his work. You're going to hear about him a lot in the early half of this career, I think. Manana said, he was real cute. Someone all soulful and funky-lunky-lunkey, you couldn't help but notice. First time in my life, I asked a guy to buy me a drink, Rolling Stone, 1984. And Stephen Bray remembers, she stood out. Her energy was really apparent. I had an encounter to force of nature. He's gorgeous. He was a musician. He's planning to go to Berkeley College of of Music. He's in a band called The Cost of Living. And Madonna is like, I'm dating you and I'm going

to every cost of living show and dancing like a maniac in front of it. And what a time. Who amongst us hasn't dated a guy in a band and come to every show and dance like a maniac? Love it. But you know what? She was tired of Ann Arbor, babe. This romance is ill-fated because she's like, I got to get out of here. She said those were good days, but I knew my stay at Michigan was short term. I was just fine-tuning my technique. And Christopher Flynn was like, babe, go ahead, get the fuck out of here. You don't need to graduate.

This is not a direct quote, but I'm paraphrasing. Yeah, he was like, you're too big for this town already. Exactly, yeah. Madonna said, looking back, I think I probably did make Steve feel kind of bad. I was really insensitive in those days, and I was totally self-absorbed, leaving a bit of a string of broken hearts. Her father was like, no, you're not going to New York. Again, who amongst us has experienced a father saying,

no, you're not going to New York. And she was like, yes, I am. And she saved up money from all her jobs. And at the end of the school year, Christopher Flynn and her friend from dance class, Peter Kentis, drove her to the airport, waved her off. Her first time ever on an airplane. It's 1978.

She's 19 years old. Also her first taxi ride. She said, I didn't know anyone. I had nowhere to stay, and I only had $35 in my pocket. This is a core piece of Madonna mythology. Yes. I've heard multiple dollar amounts in multiple accounts by different people. But does it really matter?

No, she didn't have much. She didn't have much. Yeah. And she definitely didn't have anyone looking out for her. Yes. And this is my favorite part of the mythology, and I don't care if it's true or not, because it's too good. That she got out, got a taxi, and said, take me to the middle of everything. And the driver was like, bet.

And dropped her off in type of square. And also, like, again, I wasn't there because I wasn't born and you weren't there yet because It was two. You were two. But Times Square in 1978 was a fucking shithole. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like porn theaters and, like, disgusting. It wasn't like now where it's like the M&M store and like Olive Garden or whatever.

Like, you wouldn't go there. It was back. She said, I got out of the cab and I was overwhelmed because of all the buildings, you know, really high. I walked east on 42nd Street and then south on Lexington and there was a street fair. It was a summer and I had in a winter coat and was carrying a suitcase. This guy started following me around. He wasn't cute or anything, but he looked interesting. I said hi to him.

And he said, why are you walking around with a winter coat in a suitcase? And I said, I just got off the plane. And he said, well, why don't you go home and drop your fucking coat off? That's not what he said, but I'm just, I'm dramatizing. And I said, I don't live anywhere. He was dumbfounded. So he said, well, you can stay at my apartment. So I stayed there for the first two weeks.

He didn't try to rape me or anything. He showed me where everything was and he found. me breakfast. It was perfect. I relied on the kindness of strangers. This story is psychotic to me. That's insane. It is a little bit we used to be a proper country because I do feel that you used to be able to trust people more. Let me rephrase that. I don't know about able. I'm not talking about like what the outcome might be, but I think people did trust people more before and now you wouldn't even like ask a stranger at the time basically because you're too scared, you know? Yeah.

It was just like such a different, especially as a young woman. But what a wonderful man. I wonder if he like knows. Like that girl, that's a street urchin that he took care of in 1978 is a global superstar now? We'll never know. We'll never know. We'll never know. So she was scared.

She's excited. She said, I used to go down and sit in the fountain at Lincoln Center and watch all the people and cry. I'd write in my journal, well, I ever know anybody? it was pathetic. It was a scene in a bad movie. But I always say, if you can't say, I'll die if I don't do it, you should not do it.

I love it too. That part I really relate to all of that, just being like, I'll never make it in this town. I'll never have friends. I'll never get a job. I'll never be the editor of interview magazine. Or like, do something that there's a billboard or like, no understand which direction

is north, southeast, west. When I first moved to New York. It was so hard. First of all, I didn't have only $35. I'll be honest. I'm not afraid. I had $2,000, which is kind of a lot of money, but it was also $2,000. 2000 is like 35, you know.

It's a chunk of money, but it's not, it's New York and it was 2006, I think, which was like kind of peak. I spent it all, you guys, this is how soft I am. I spent almost all of it on car rides in the winter because I simply could not understand the weather. I was like, you want me to go on the train? You want me to walk to the train? It is negative. My tear froze to my beanie. I can't be, and also I was like kind of violently hung over all the time.

So it was like violently hung over plus like negative five degrees. I was like, Northside please hold, babe. Some of you will remember North Side Please Hold. That was the car service in Williamsburg. But this is pre-Ubers. Anyways, I didn't last. I only made it two years. She finds some other dance students.

She's back at Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater. She's living with some dance students. She got a work-study scholarship to be in the troops third-tier company. Every month or two she had moved. Rental, squat, rental. Someone told her at this time, if you really want to master Alvin Ailey's technique, you need to study at the Martha Graham School.

And she was like, okay, on my way. And she joined those beginners classes. Another dance teacher, she took classes from this time. Marcus Shulkind said of Madonna, she was a really brilliant dancer. She was musical, she had really strong technique, and she reeked of potential. What's holding her back is some of the attitude she had,

the unbelievable snippiness and comebacks that she would come up with in dealing with other people's power. The choreographer is God, and you should be happy to bow down to them, and there wasn't an atom of that in Madonna. Early on, babe, she was like, I'm not listening to you. She went to the legendary Pearl Lang,

and Pearl Lang said, of Madonna. She was very talented, very fragile but fierce. Many people can do the acrobatics required, but she had a poetic quality to her. I was fond of her arrogance, her hunger and her spunk. Nothing phased her. She was going to do something and nothing was going to

get in her way. Pearl Lang got her job at the Russian tea room, which she quickly got fired from because she wore fish nuts and they didn't like that. Okay, this is one of my favorite stories, which I know you remember from the Mary Gabriel. Do you want to tell it? Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay, so that fall, her and

Whitney, her roommate, came to New York for a family visit, and they met up with Whitney's father, Ed, who we knew was like some sort of actor. They went to Joe Allen's, an old school haunt, and he invited his old friend to meet them there, who, Al Pacino. And Madonna was flirting with

Al Pacino. You guys, Al Pacino. Yeah, Al Pacino. 1978 Al Pacino, one of the hottest men. Blowing bubbles all night with bubblegum. She's great at blowing bubbles. And at the end of the night when she was dropped off in Ed's car, Al Pacino turned to Whitley and said to her and Ed that friend of you stuck her tongue in my in my ear. Madonna stuck her tongue in Al Pacino's year in 1978.

Again, once again, if this story is not true, I don't care. It's a wonderful story. And who is going to make this up? She was spunky, man. She was funky, babe. She was going to stick that tongue right in Al Pacino's year. All right. It's the end of May 78.

Things are not going well despite a tongue in Al Pacino's year. It is dive apartments. It's squats. We're living on popcorn. Yeah. We're doing nude modeling. That's going to come back later in this. Well, or not oops.

I'm not ashamed. Yeah, I'm not ashamed. She said it was hard and it was lonely, and I had to dare myself every day to keep going. Sometimes I would play the victim and cry in my shoebox of a bedroom with a window that faced a wall, watching the pigeons shit on my window sill. And I wondered if it was all worth it.

Then I would pull myself together and look at a postcard of Frida Kahlo taped to my wall, and the side of her mustache consoled me. Beautiful. Because she was an artist who didn't care what people thought. I admired her. She was daring. People gave her a hard time.

Life gave her a hard time. If she could do it, then so could I. Great. Love it. All right. This is kind of a sad, serious moment, but I think it's important to the story. So I'm not sure the exact timing, but sometime in that first year of being in New York, Madonna was raped. According to her friend Whitley, this is what happened.

She was on her way to dance class and she needed money to make a call. to get into the locked door of the dance class. She asked a stranger for a coin, and he gave it to her and offered to walk her to the phone booth. No one picked up. He was like, oh, you can call for my apartment. She told Howard Stern much later,

I was like, oh, that's really nice of you. I trusted everybody. But he did not take her to his apartment. He put a knife to her back, and he forced her to the roof of the building, and he raped her. Horrible. In 1995, she told the journalist Barbara Allen

in an NME interview, Barbara Allen was like, I didn't know that you've been raped. And she said, you're the first person I've told. This is like the first time she mentions it in public or press. So that's, you know, we're talking 11 years after she's famous or whatever, 10 years after she's famous. And she said, was it a date rape situation? Someone you knew.

And she said, no, it was a complete stranger. And Barbara Allen said, did you get help afterwards? And she said, no, I was very young and I didn't know anybody. And then Barbara Ellen's like, would you rather stop talking about this? And she goes, I don't want to talk about it only in that. I don't want to get into this Oprah Winfrey, Schneid O'Connor thing of, oh, everything, oh, everybody, all these horrible things that have happened to me. I don't want to make it an issue. I think I've had what a lot of people would consider to be horrific experiences in my life, but I don't want people to feel sorry for me because I don't. Okay, I don't, I'm, I just want to be clear, you guys that when I'm, anything I'm bringing up in this podcast is only to inform her art. That's my purpose of it. This is not a salacious podcast. I'm not here to like, dish or gossip. It's like not interesting to me. I'm interested in this because of one, how it ties back to like watching her mother never victimize herself and be sick and dying and never

feel sorry for herself and how this came here. And it looks like a similar situation where she's not obviously similar to having cancer, but she's like, I don't want this to be about, oh, poor me. And I feel like that resilience and that view of herself comes through when we're going to get to all the kind of art she makes. Definitely a little bit in this episode, but a lot in the second episode through the 90s. By the way, this is all Madonna's quotes. Yeah, exactly. These are not, this isn't gossip or really. Yeah, I'm just, I'm not super, we're not sure interested in like speculating on someone's personal life because I don't, unless it's like about why or how we understand.

their art, I don't think it's that interesting. Okay, it's 979. She's a little over-dance, let's be honest. She was a little bit like... Dance schmance. She starts going to auditions for stage and film jobs, including musical theater,

which is when she had to start singing. She said most of the people auditioning were much more professional than I was. They brought sheet music, and they'd give it to the piano player, and I'll just wing it and sing songs I knew from the radio, like an Aretha Franklin song or some other ridiculous embarrassment.

In late April, she was dating a guy named Norris Burroughs. Side note about Norris Burroughs, but Norris Burroughs wrote an entire book. They've dated for three months. He wrote a book. Did you read it? I tried. It's really, again, love and respect to Norris Burroughs. It is really bad.

There's like all these sentences that are like, she was an incredibly sensual lover. And you're like, okay, cool. Amazing. There's just one quote where, and I'm sure she actually never. said this, but it's really funny that he wrote it that she talks about when she lived in the East Village, how she was like, it's so lively down here. It's not New York. It's Nueva York. But I don't think she ever said that. Right.

Anyways, that's Norseboros. But they dated a bit, and then he invited her. And he, he's been interviewed multiple times about it, and he kind of was like, she wasn't exactly dying to like settle to be my girlfriend. He invites her to a party in Tribeca on May Day at a guy called Dan Gilroy's house. This is another important introduction of a person. He was a painter and he was also in a band called the Acme band with his brother Ed.

And he and Madonna hit it off. She said, I fell in love with him and it turned out he was a guitar player in a band. What happened is I said, you have to teach me how to play an instrument. Sorry, real quick sidebar about Dan Gilroy, which I think is so interesting, is that he ended up

becoming Shelley Duvall's partner for 34 years until she died. Isn't that so interesting? It is. Yeah. Anyways. But just remind me why Dan Gilroy is so important? Okay, so Dan Gilroy is the person who, A, teaches her how to play instruments.

Yes. He's like, I'll show you chords on a guitar. I'll teach you how to play drums. And they have a band together. And this is when she really is like, I'm going to do music. And I'm going to like, you're going to show me. And she starts collaborating. She starts being in a band.

And it's all through this guy. Okay. Yeah. That's a lot. That's big. It's big. He lived in Queens in Flushing Meadows, and they actually, it's so amazing. They lived in a synagogue that, like, I guess the rabbi had died, and so the people that

owned the synagogue just rented it as is, and that's where they lived. Wow. And then practice and stuff. And so he taught her guitar, and she remembers being like, that really clicked something off in my brain, like learning guitar. Here's a reason I want to talk with this. I feel like there's such a misconception about Madonna not being a music, like a songwriter. you know

and I really feel we need to debunk that that's just stupid though it's I know but people are people are stupid you know she's a songwriter she's written like she's she writes songs

she writes songs but like very literally this we're gonna get into it and you guys need to understand how fucking cool she was but like she played she was a drummer in a band that played like

cool you know fucking CBGBs and stuff like go with the fucking program real quick though really important love this story because it's so fucking weird.

They're dating, they're hanging out. Two Belgian producers enter the story. Their names are Jan von Lu and Jean-Claude Pellerin. Are these the Born to Be Alive people? What's born to be alive? Born to be alive. That's the French singer Patrick Hernandez. Yes, yes, yes.

You don't know it? No, babe. It's so good. I love it. It sounded good the way you did it. It's an amazing song. Well, I guess they're iconic then. He's a one-hill wonder.

He's a one-hit wonder. Well, they came to town and they happened to, they went to see Dan and Ed's band, the Acme band, Dan Gilroy's. And they got a struggle with conversation. They were like, we're in town because we're having an open audition for backup dancers for Patrick Hernandez. And Dan goes home and tells Madonna like, well, you're a dancer, do you want to do this? She goes and tries out with it. And the Belgians become fucking obsessed with her, of course. And they're like, can you sing?

And Hernandez said, while she moved marvelously well, she said she didn't know how to sing at all. And to prove it to us, she hummed jingle bells. But we were already seduced. Yeah. They were like, she's got the look. She got the look. She got the charisma. She's got the moves, baby.

I got the motion. Right. I'm causing a commotion. They're like, we want you to come make an album in Paris on our label Aquarius. And Madonna, very smart, young, involves a lawyer. And then it's like, okay, let's go. They fly around the concord. To Paris.

Yes. She stays at Jan von Luz 10-room apartment. It's not awesome. At first, she's like, this is awesome. She hates it. She hates it. They give her a vocal coach, and she's like, I hate this man. So she doesn't do many sessions.

She does dance lessons, but she's just fucking bored. She's like, I'm unhappy. I can't be creative. I have nothing to do. Paris is fucking slow. Like, I went like, let's go, let's go. You know, she loves New York. She's writing all these letters to Dan Gilroy at home,

and they keep being like, we'll give you more money. Like, what can we do? She escaped. Yes. She basically got really sick. I think she got pneumonia or something. And she's like, I just need to go home to see my friends and I'll be back. And she literally left all her clothes because she was lying. And she was like, yeah, I'll be back. Never comes back.

Back in New York. Back in New York, left her shit. It was like, bye. Broke that contract. Back in the synagogue. Back to the Gog, babe. That's what they called it, the Gog. Did they?

Yeah. It's kind of amazing. And she gets right back to work, babe. She's like, oh, you guys are at work. I'm practicing music all day. Four hours of playing drums along to Elvis Costello Records. And then she'd switch to guitar and keyboards. And then Dan would come back home and they'd work on music together.

And she started to learn to write songs. This was like her, like, musical training boot camp. And she said, it was one of the happiest times of my life. I really felt loved. Sometimes I'd write sad songs and he'd sit there and cry. Very sweet. Beautiful. They would talk all the time about music.

music. They loved the police. They loved Blondie. We love Blondie. Manville. We love Blondie. And Prince. And then one day, their band, the Acme band's drummer, quits. And Madonna was like, I'll do it. I'll be the drummer. She's in Ben. And her first song she had written, it was called Tell the Truth. It's four chords. And she said writing it was a religious experience. Okay, I'm so sorry, quick side quest. Let's go. In August of 1979, she saw an ad in backstage. Does backstage magazine still exist? I don't think so. for a part in a low-budget film.

The ad was looking for a dominant woman who knows how to act and dance to play a dominatrix type. And she sends the director, Stephen John Lewicky, photos of herself, and a two-page handwritten letter. And the director was like,

I love this. You're gorgeous. I love this letter. Come audition. And she gets the part. The film is called a certain sacrifice. And they filmed it

for a while until he ran out of money. This is going to come back to bite her in the ass. But I just want to mark it here. I don't think that movie never really came out. until she got famous.

Okay, so then Madonna's like, okay, whatever, that was a fun experience. It's not coming out, back to music. They had this group that would practice all night. Dan and Ed Gilroy, Madonna, and their bass player friend Angie Smith, and they would jam all night, and then they would go to IHOP.

And they started being like, want to do Breakfast Club about going to IHop? And then that's what they called their band. The Breakfast Club. The Breakfast Club. Madonna's like so stoked. Like, she's in a band, and now she can fucking start making things happen.

She starts calling everyone in town. Let's book gigs. Let's get a deal. She moved into the Gogh full time. And they would play shows. And Madonna would only sing like one or two songs because she was a drummer, right? Yeah. But she said Dan Gilroy had created a monster.

I was always thinking in my mind, I want to be a singer in this group too. And they didn't need another singer. Well, wait, why is Dan Gilroy created the monster? I thought it would have been like the cheesy people in France. Well, I think she would have like you're a flop. I want to be a dancer. Because he taught her how to write songs. I think she was like, oh, I'm going to like, I want to get out there and sing my stuff and be my, yeah.

Yeah, seriously. She doesn't want to be like in the background playing drums. Yeah, but she's just doing it. Yeah, that was her only way in because the drummer quit. She said her inspirations singing back then were Patty Smith, Ricky Lee Jones, and Chrissy Hine. And the Pretenders. She said, I didn't see many concerts. I knew about Debbie Harry and Chrissy Hyne and the Talking Heads and David Bowie.

But there was no pressure for me to be in anything, to be any. anything specifically to sound a certain way, to look a certain way. That's an important thing because it allowed me to develop as an artist and to be pure without any influences. They had a big break, babe. It's a show at CBGB's. But Madonna's like, you know what? The show was cool, but I don't want to be in the back.

The more songs I wrote, the more I wanted to be the front person of the band, not just playing drums. I was an excellent drummer. I was really strong. And I had all this dance trading, so I had all this energy. well the old drummer of the breakfast club or of the acme band which is now the breakfast club comes back and is like I'm going to drum now so Madonna's like okay I'm on keys now closer to the front okay Dan also said he couldn't help but notice when she did sing her two songs

the crowd noticeably picked up and went wild because they loved her because she's Madonna then also the band starts to fall apart and I won't get too much into the weeds of this but half of the men and the band were in love with her okay yeah and she's comes to the band and she's like, I should be the lead singer, you guys. And they're like, no. And she's like, okay, I quit by. And the two members that were in love with her were like, we'll go with you. So they started new, their names are Gary Burke and Mike Monaghan. And they briefly had a band called Madonna in the Sky. Actually, I think played a couple shows. But then Mike had to go back to his day job. But don't worry, Mel.

Fate is back. Stepping in. Stephen Bray showed up in New York. Stephen Bray, is the gorgeous guy that she was dating before, which was like, I'm out of Michigan. Exactly. By a loser, but now he's back. The musician who had just, I guess, studied at Berkeley College of Music, no big deal, one of the best schools.

And he's like, hey, I'm coming to New York, babe. And she's like, great, I need a drummer. I have a full set of songs, and we have a gig. And he's like, oh, okay, I didn't even know you were playing music, babe. And he also said later, I don't think she actually did have a gig, but he was like, okay, I'm on my way. Yeah. So he meets up with Panana at this place called,

the music building, which were rehearsal studios on 38th and 8th, where she had been rehearsing with Gary Burke, and they jam, and Madonna had 14 songs she had written. She had to move out of the Gogg because she had broken up with Dan Gilroy when she left the breakfast club, and she couldn't stay at her current squat because she had set it on fire with an electric heater because there's no heat in the squats. Whoops. Whoops. So she moves into the rehearsal studios, which is really disgusting. And Stephen Bray lives there, too. So they look. live in a rehearsal room. There's one bathroom in the hallway. There's no shower. It's a toilet and a sink.

She really wanted it. I just want you guys to know. I don't know if you ever wanted anything that bad to live in a rehearsal space and use one bathroom that doesn't have a shower. It says here on your thing that she would go out to dinner with idiots so she could go home and use their bathroom.

I mean, she would fuck guys for showers. It just said dinner. Oh. Sorry. The reason I'm saying that I think it's like that is that I do know someone that lives in a loft in New York, and he doesn't have a shower, so he does fuck guys on Grindr and take showers. I think it's great.

I think it's great, too. Madonna said, Steve and I slept between amplifiers. We budgeted with little money we had to about $1 a day. We had credit in all the Korean delis within a five-lock radius of the music building with our dollar, and we get some yogurt and peanuts. And then Steve and I would fight over whether we should mix the peanuts with the yogurt. He liked to eat them together, and I like to eat them separately. When we'd run out of money, I'd pass by the garbage can, the lobby.

of the music building, and if it smelled really good, like if there was burger king sitting on the top, I'd open it up. And if I was lucky, there would be French fries that hadn't been eaten. I'm a vegetarian, which is why I didn't eat the burger. Yeah, see, if we were starving and we had to eat yogurt with peanuts, would you want to mix them or eat them separately? I would want to eat them separate because it would feel like it's like two meals. Yeah, I would definitely want to mix them.

Oh, my God. So we would also fight about this. It's interesting. Okay, well, good thing we've economically passed that place in our lives. Anyways, they love it. I know they're struggling, but they're like, this is the most creative time. We're, like, living in the rehearsal space. We're fucking writing music.

Madonna said, you know, I remember getting up with Steve, and he'd be doing drum exercise, and I'd be doing my yoga, and then I'd play a guitar, and I'd write a song, and he'd play something he had written, and I'd make up the words for it. Like, what a bliss, babe. Can you imagine? What, yours is 80? This is 1980. Yeah. This picture's crazy.

The Chrissy Hind of it all? I know. This is the picture of their new band, which they couldn't come up with a name. Madonna wanted to be Madonna and they were like no And they were like okay what about no name spelled backwards Which sounds because they the way they would say it sounded like Emmy They became Emmy and the Emmys although there's another story that Madonna says that was her nickname I'm not really sure anyways they're Emmy and the Emmys

I mean the Emmys is fucking cool you guys I need you to understand this I don't know anything about Emmy Emmy and the Emmys is the most realized pre-Madonna as solo pop star project. Madonna described it as quote, deranged punk with minimal funk. There are a lot of YouTube. They made

a lot of songs and there's videos on YouTube. It's good. They sound a bit like the talking heads. It is that sort of CBGB sound. But then there's also like a song called Do You that I'm obsessed with. There's only a clip online. They sound like the special. It's like two-tone scaw. It's good. There's a pretendersy song

called Laugh to Keep from crying. She was in a real fucking band. Some of these songs are on that pre-Madonna like compilation It's been put out Exactly So I just want you guys to know

Put some respect on Madonna's name Like she was Playing in a cool fucking band in New York Before you were born Right I'm so sorry This is

So important right now For the bands playing audience My core I think audience And for me This was deeply important Madonna at this time Was also involved In a band

called the Spinal Root Gang. Here's what Thurston Moore of Sonic Youth said. Madonna was actually in a couple of no-wave bands that nobody ever talks about. She was in a band with these two twins, Dan and Josh Braun, who were the first members of Swans. You guys, Madonna, I believe, dated Michael Gira of Swans. Emergency. Okay, two of the hottest people to ever exist in 1980 or 79 were dating,

and this to me is like just one of the most important things in the entire world. I'm sorry. Okay, 1981. We're in the music building. We're living there. We're making music. We're thriving. Things are about to happen.

Things are about to pop off, babe. Because there is a artist management company in residence at that building called Gotham Sound. It's owned by a 29-year-old gay woman named Camille Barboni. Madonna meets her, obviously. She's like, I know there's a manager in here, babe, and I'm going to find her. Yeah. She invites Barboni. I hope it's Barboni.

I don't know if it's Barbone or Barbone. Carbone. Yeah. Okay, Barbone. To watch her band Emmy and the Emmys perform at Max's Kansas City. So cool. This is one of my favorite anecdotes in Mary Gabriel's book. When Barbone goes to write the date of the show in her calendar, Madonna grabs it and

throws it aside. And she's like, if it's important enough to you, you'll remember. They don't make people like this anymore. Well, we don't know how to remember. That's so true. Because of their phones. But still. You couldn't do that.

that to anyone now. No, now it would be like, what the fuck are you talking about? But still, it seems like a lot to remember. I think it's really fucking amazing to be that confident. Yeah. I would love like 2% of that. Yes. So Barbonne went and she said, she'd been on stage for one and a half minutes with a lousy band. There was something about her that was sensational. She sparkled in a very street way. Do you think I sparkle in a very streetway? No, but you certainly sparkle. Thank you so much. Not in a streetway, though.

No. Okay, so she signs a contract with Gotham's house. How would you like a manager? How would you like a manager? And she was like, I would love it. Yeah. This is just a manager for Madonna, by the way. Not for the band.

Yeah. Emmy and the Emmys is no longer. We've never, never to be heard of again on this podcast. No, not really. This is kind of cool. The first thing Barbone does is like, okay, you're living on the floor of a rehearsal space, you clearly need help. I'm going to give you $100 a week to live on,

a rehearsal space. I'm going to fix your bike so you can get around town. And she moves her into the Star Motel, which actually, low-key was kind of worse than the music building because she shared a bathroom with, quote, two fat Colombians and this old Irish drunk who'd just been released from the insane asylum. Sounds dangerous.

I just, again, need to point out, I don't know if anyone's wanted anything this bad, you know? Like, I don't know if I've ever lived in a place called The Star. Motel sharing a bathroom with an Irish drunk from the mental asylum and two fat Colombians? Listen, same. Thank God she did it. Yeah.

This reminds me with this moment many years ago, probably like over 20 years ago when I was telling this guy about like my struggles and I'm never going to make it and blah, blah, blah. And he was like, you know, part of success is outlasting everybody else. And I feel like she also knows this. So there's a million chicks in New York City that want to make it. want to make it and be a big star and blah blah blah blah blah and she's like bitch I'm gonna outlast all those people like

two fat Colombians and some Irish man that just got out of the mental institution or not getting in the way of me being like the next Frida Kahlo no it's so true I think a corollary to your thing that I think about all the time is that truly like more than half of being successful is just doing

something because people are too embarrassed to do anything or put themselves out there and it's like do you know how many embarrassing things people have had to do before they hit it big, you know? God, yeah. All right, so she's got a manager. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

She moves out of the Star Motel because she got robbed. She's on the Upper West Side. Yeah. She calls up Christopher Shikoni, and she's like, babe, come to New York. He had studied, he, I forgot to mention, while, when she found Christopher Flynn, she also brought Christopher, her brother to study dance there. And there's a whole, mostly because this is Madonna's story and not Christopher's story, but Christopher talks about how, like, he was.

like, oh, I've also never seen a gay man, and I didn't, maybe, you know, maybe I'm gay. Yeah. He also talks about how, like, they learn dance from the same source, so they're, like, sort of, like, connected through dance. And why they were good in the early days, which we'll get to as him being her backup dancer, because they are, they had the same training. Well, that's what she calls him, and she's like, come to New York City, and he had, he was dancing with a company in Detroit, and so he did come, but he only stayed two months, and then

he came back for good a year later. Okay, Camille Barbone is like, listen, your band sucks. We're going to get you new people. But Madonna's like, Steve Bray has to stay. And she's like, okay. The demos that she's doing at the time

through Barbone's direction are really Pat Benatar, rock chick. Like, that was the vibe. And that obviously is not really a thing. One of these early demos, though, is Burning Up. Burning Up was an Emmy and the Emmy song as far as I can understand.

So it's a very old song. Okay. Which fits in with the rock chick thing, but when we get to it, I'm going to die on my sword for Burning Up. Burning Up is a severely underrated song. Love. Love. Okay. So it's the first ever Madonna show, babe. We're finally there. We're performing as Madonna, October 9th, 1981, at Chase Park

on Lower Broadway. I need an image, and unfortunately doesn't exist. If you have one, one of these Madonna fan sites or someone, please send it over, but she wore a cape made of dozens of fox tails and leather and fishnets. It sounds a little mad max. Yeah. Yeah.

But she gets booked into clubs from this. People are like, she's great. And she's just like, I don't want to be a Pat Benatar. You know, I'm not feeling this. I'm, again, paraphrasing, there's no quote about that. She's getting more into dance music. This is a quote from Rolling Stone, not her saying it. This is the writer.

It was the heyday of urban contemporary radio in New York, and Madonna was captivated by the funky sounds emanating from boom boxes all over town. She started writing material in that vein, but the band and her manager hated it. She said they weren't used to that kind of stuff, and I'd agreed with my manager to do rock, but my heart wasn't in it. And Steve Bray was really into it. So they start working on dance music. Barbone said, you're a rock chick. You're a rock chick. Near Eve, 1981, I thought this was extremely major.

actually, Madonna opened for David Johansson of the New York Dolls at a place called My Father's Place on Long Island. At a party that was thrown by a cable TV channel that had just launched, you might have heard of, called MTV. It's really amazing. It's really amazing. Have you ever seen this performance? No, have you?

No. According to Camille Barboni, she had gotten very, she was in talks with Columbia Records to get Madonna signed. But Madonna, somehow, we don't know how, got Billy Joel's lawyer. Jay Kramer to come and negotiate her right out of the contract with Camille Barbone. Barbone told an unauthorized biographer, I spent everything I had on Madonna's career. It bankrupted me.

She wasn't intentionally malicious, but just incapable of seeing life from anyone else's point of view. She wanted what she wanted, and if you didn't give it, she turned her back on you. I do feel like your manager was supposed to give you what you want because that's their job, but that's the end of Camille Barbone for now. And actually forever, she doesn't work with her anymore. Camille Barbone leaving

means the support left though no more rent paid no more rehearsal space the band is gone except for Stephen Bray and Stephen Bray's like fuck them we're going to do our demos we got this and you know what they did with those demos were not they more Madonna they took them to the clubs took them to the clubs

babe they were like Ann Ars they're not listening to a demo sent into them they're going to see what the DJ's play they want to see the look they want to see the vibe they want to see what cool people were doing exactly so they have this four-song demo. It has everybody stay. You love stay. Scoblady-bob-bo.

Scuba-bo. Don't you know and ain't no big deal. Paul Pesco, he's a guy who played on the four-track demo and actually plays on further Madonna recording and said, what I admired about Madonna and Steve Bray was that they had this very distinct approach or sound in mind, even in the way that she programmed her drum machine. I want you to listen to that. She

programmed her drum machine. Madonna programmed the drum machine. Okay, she is a musician. She is an artist. Boobit-scoop, scoop, booby-dib-bop, yeah. Okay, so Madonna, we're at The Roxy. We're at Dancateria. We're at Paradise Garage on Saturday nights. Friday nights was The Roxy. Wheels of Steel Night. Cool Lady Blue, a woman from London, would bring together the hip-hop scenes and the new wave kids and punk kids into one space. So cool. I don't have a lot of time to do a TLDR here because we'll be here all night about the history of

hip-hop, but just I needed to know 1982. It was a big year for hip-hop. It was a big year for hip-hop. Yeah. The world's changing. It's a big year for New York. I mean, New York's alive. Again, 82.

Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five put out the message, and Africa and Bobata puts out Planet Rock. These are major hip-hop moments. And also, Planet Rock is fully a dance club anthem. I was saying to my friend who never, I, my friend was around. He was at Dance Teteria. And I was like, remind me, I'm going on this podcast, remind me what you thought of her, like, at the very, very beginning.

You were at Dance Tierra and you thought she was cool. And he said she was cool. When I moved to New York in 1982, people were buzzing about her in the nightclub. She had worked at a few of the coolest bars as a bartender that everyone went to. You didn't have to be gay. It was all mixed. One was called Lucky Strike. That has nothing to do with the restaurant.

And it was on 3rd Avenue and 9th Street on the second floor. It was great. Another place was the red bar, which I think was on the corner of 1st Avenue, 7th Street. The East Village was dangerous and edgy and it had its own crew. The whole hip-hop thing and liking. Latin boys was just emerging for everyone liked just new wave or punk guys. She was super early and super hip. There was this great guy, a beautiful black kid with short dreads that would have been a star.

His name was Michael Stewart. He was my pot dealer, for instance. He did graffiti and the police beat him up on the subway one night and he died. But before he died, there was a benefit. Madonna came to sing after she had her first hit, which was everybody. Oh, my God. I'm getting ahead. I like that you just said the thing about the graffiti artist and doing the benefit.

Madonna was kind of really in that world and she was dating, this is around the time she's dating Futura. Yes, which is amazing. Who's also still around. Oh yeah, totally. Yeah. But like so major, like this is... She's just cool. She's doing it. She's cool.

We're not there yet. I don't think she's literally, she's not the queen of New York, by the way. But I think what's important to point out is she always has had the best instinct for what's happening and about to happen. Right. That's one of her greatest artistic skills. Yes, yes, yes. Right? It's like hip hop and graffiti are about to pop off and she's their front row, you know? Right, right. Everyone is kind of thinking Human League and she's thinking Futura.

And Fabi Freddie, exactly. And Five-Fri-Freddie. And Africa Bombada and all that stuff. Lucky Strike is very interesting. It's a little further down on my dock, but that's where she worked with Martin Bergoin. What are she going to get into. Got it. Okay. She would do graffiti, babe. And you know what her tag was? Boy toy. That's right. So good. So she has met Debbie Mazar at Dancetria. Dance Tria is so cool, you guys. Again, I didn't. experience it and you didn't experience it but LL Cool J worked there the Beastie worked there Shadee worked there Keith Herring worked there like it's deeply fabulous it's deeply

fabulous she her and Debbie multiple floors multiple floors there's an elevator that's where she met Debbie um they call her themselves the webo girls like wavos girls with balls this is where she meets DJ Mark Kamens super important um Mark Kamens and Madonna start dating Madonna gives them the tape, the demo tape, and at some point he starts playing it during his set, everybody, the song, and the crowd loves it. More importantly, Mark Kamens did A&R. I think for Island, and he brought the tape to Chris Blackwell of Island Records, who was like, no, thank you.

Apparently Chris Blackwell, according to Mark Kamens, didn't like Madonna, and he said that I'm not going to sign my A&R guy's girlfriend. So that kind of backfired. Yeah, well, he would be very, I mean, I think he probably was really rich anyway, but. But apparently Geffen also passed, but I don't have any proof of that. That's just sidelly mentioned in one of the books. How can anyone be passing on everybody? It's so good.

But we'll get there. She meets Michael Rosenblatt because he brought Wham to Dan Satria. Love. And then he's like, okay, I'll listen to your tape. And then he's like, okay, this is not amazing. But come meet with me. And he said, the girl sitting in my office was just radiating starvation. power. I knew that there was a star sitting right there. I always asked this question,

and I still do with any artists I'm interested in, which is, what do you want? What are you looking for? The wrong answer is, I want to get my art out there. The best answer was the one Madonna gave me, which was, I want to rule the world. And I thought that's a hell of an answer. Which she also famously gives that answer later. Dick Clark. Clark. Dick Clark American Bandstand. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We are a couple of weeks into the new year. What do you hope will happen not only in But for the rest of your professional life, what are your dreams?

What's left? To rule the world. There you go. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Madonna. So he's like, great, you're a star. Here's $5,000. Two 12-inch singles, and you'll get royalties and publishing fees of $1,000 for each song you write. Incredible.

Except not yet, because he has to get Seymour Stein to sign off. The legend, babe. The fucking icon that is Seymour Stein. He had signed the Ramones, the talking heads, the pretenders. And his label, Sire, had just become part of Warner Brothers. He's 40. He's in the hospital recovering from open heart surgery. And he describes it as encountering Florence Nightingale when Madonna comes.

He said in his book, as penicillin dropped into my heart, I lay there and listened. I liked the hook. I liked Madonna's voice. I liked the feel. I liked the name Madonna. I liked it all. And I played it again. So he hits up Mark Kamens and he's like, bring that Madonna to see me.

And he said, I could tell she wouldn't have cared if I was. was like Sarah Bernhard lying in a coffin. All she cared was that one of my arms moved and that I could sign a contract. What I saw there was even more important than the one song I heard. I saw a young woman who was so determined to be a star. This part of the story is so great

because just seeing her become a real success, like she really knew. Even if she was scared. It can be both things at the same time. I really admire that drive, though. Me too. I'm not letting it go. until I achieve this goal.

Like I'm coming to the hospital bedside of Seymour Stein, and I'm lifting his arm up to sign this signature. I don't care what happens. And you think this was all set in stone now? No, babe. Seymour Stein now has to get Mo Austin, the head of Warner Brothers, to sign off. And you know what?

Mo Austin said no, babe. He was like, I don't want this. I don't know what exactly he said, but I know he said no. And Seymour Stein pulled a very Yossi and Madonna move, which was like, okay, babe. and then went right around him to the head of Warner's

International Division, Nesuhi Ertugin. And Ertugan was like, all right, I'll back the deal. So actually Madonna's initial contract was Sire or was with Sire and Warner International. Very interesting. Now it's time to record everybody,

for real. But who's going to produce it, Mel? Well, she has to decide between Kamens and Steve Bray. I know. And she ultimately chose her boyfriend Kamens. Not because he was her boyfriend, but because he had more experience. Here's the thing, I think, and this is

just my personal opinion. Madonna would never choose someone because of a personal allegiance. She would always choose the person that she thought would have the best outcome. Yeah. Yeah. She said, I was really scared. I thought I had been given a golden egg. In my mind, I thought, okay, Mark can produce the album, Steve can play the instruments.

Uh-oh, Steve wanted to produce. It was really awful, but I just didn't trust him enough. Steve was mad. Yeah. Steve left. I got it. I got it. Didn't talk to her anymore for two years. October 1982, the everybody single comes out. I'm very interested in this right now because the cover art was Madonna one of the most gorgeous woman to exist?

Yes. Is there a picture of her on the cover of the single? No. No. It's a colorful street scene, a collage of downtown New York City by a Michigan-raised illustrator named Lou Beach, who had actually done stuff for the Carpenters and the police. this is a time where there was black radio and there was white radio

it was bifurcated like that and Madonna's music as hard as maybe to wrap your mind around now was in the R&B tradition they didn't know where to put it because they were like well we can't it's not white radio music and so they serviced it to black radio

and I think they didn't want to really reveal what she looked like because then people could imagine she was Puerto Rican or she was black, you know, like, even Michael Rosenbach was like, I thought I could get a lot of R&B play on that record because a lot of people thought she was black. Isn't that interesting? Just not the misleading building and things she's black, but the more of the idea that like in this era of pop music, what we now consider to just all pop music is rooted in black music, you know, like it's wouldn't even think to make the distinction. But back then it was like, you're, you're

one or the other. Yeah. Everybody popped off, Bibb. The clubs loved it. You know, I said it's serviced to Black Radio, and that's important. But what's really important is Mark Kamens takes it to a guy named Larry Levant, who is a legendary DJ from Paradise Garage, and he loved it. He would play the nine-minute dub version.

So sick, man. We used to be a proper fucking society with nine-minute dub versions of songs. And he played it for Frankie Crocker, who was a DJ at the R&B station, WBLS. Fun fact, Shep Petty Bone also was a DJ there. a little bit later though. And Frankie Crocker is the first person to put Madonna on the radio. He puts everybody on the radio and within a month, it's number one on their playlist and number three on the Billboard Dance Charts. Here's what Fav by Freddie said about the song. He was like, I was walking down Avenue A and about 20 steps ahead of me were these three young Puerto Rican

girls. They were really hot and sexy. I was watching them walk down the street and they had a little boombox with them. And I remember, I was like, whatever this record is, these girls are really into it. They were singing and walking and switching down the street. And as I get a little closer to them, I realized it was Madonna's record. It's a hard song. It's so fucking cool. Okay, so Madonna's like, I have a song on the fucking radio

babe. It's number three on the dance charts. I'm going to move out of my place because Futurea did graffiti all over the apartment and I have to leave. And she gets her own place on fourth between Avenue A and B. Right next door to a 19 year old guy called Martin Bergoin.

Hell yeah. Another important figure. Yes. An important gay. Yeah, her first gay bestie. Her first, like, yeah, not gay mentor, but gay besty. They're inseparable. Christopher Chaconi said that Martin Burgoyne was very influential on the way Madonna dressed

because he would always wear like a little boy's jacket and kneeling shorts and, like, flat shoes with little socks. And I'm like, oh, I could see that, you know? He was British, I believe. He is the one that introduced her to your friend. Maripole. Maripole. Moroccan-born French-raised jewelry designer Maripole, who was the art director at the Fioreucci store.

Yeah. Anyway, Maripole invented the rubber bracelet. Which is so crazy. Huge. Also, I just want to say something that's really fucked up. I called Hot Topping today in the Burbank Mall to try to procure some rubber bracelets for this podcast, and they were like, we don't have any.

And I was like, what has happened to our country? We're in shambles. Yeah, well, you know, the 80s are inching back. So maybe they'll come back. Maybe the rubber bracelet comes in and out of fashion. It's been back, babe. Like, gorped tortines wore it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I just feel if we can't count on hot topic to stock black rubber bracelets, what are we doing? Is it the tariffs? God, I love rubber bracelets so much. They're so cool. I love, I style, and I never use rubber bracelets. I should. You know where they're they?

have them. I hate to say it, but Jeff Bezos, he does have plenty of them. I saw them on his website. Oh. Yeah. He personally has it in his closet, but also on his website. So this is when she's bartending at Lucky Strike, like your friend mentioned, with Martin and Erica Bell. They apparently saved up money and or stole money from the register, unclear, and went to England for the first time. And I loved this story because Martin was best friends with Mark Allman from Soft Cell. So cool. It's so cool. And he was out of town and they stated it as like bed sit that apparently What does that mean? Bedcids were like a room you could rent, apparently.

Like it was like these like shitty like dorm style things. If I'm getting it wrong, I'm sorry because I'm not British. But like from what I understand, they were like very low cost rental rooms. Okay. He said it was a hellhole, Mark Allman. He said there were prostitutes upstairs, junkies downstairs, and it was a bare room with a bed, nylon sheets, and a kitchenette with dirty plates and a lamp. I've always felt a shame that she stayed in such a pit.

If I had known in 1983 how huge she'd become, I'd have cut up the sheets and sold them on. eBay. Mark Goldman, amazing. Then she starts dating Jean-Michel Baskillot in late 1982. Kind of incredible, no? It is. Yeah. I mean, 1982 is great in New York City.

And just like she really had a knack for being drawn to really cool, talented people. Like, she could identify them before the world had, you know? Yes. They're together for a while, but it was a bit rocky because he, had a drug problem. Yeah, he's a heroin addict. Yeah. All right, 1983.

Okay, now we're like really cooking with gas. Like full in flames. In fuego, babe, because we're burning up. We're on fire. We're on fire. Hot, hot, hot, hot, hot, hot. Burning Up single comes out March 9th, 1992. Come on, let go.

What a great song. Come on. Who wrote this shit? Madonna! Veronica Shikoni, bitch. She wrote this song, okay? Only credited songwriter. It's such a great song.

It is produced by Reggie Lucas, I believe. It was a heavyweight R&B producer. Come on, let go. I'm sorry. I'm trying not to sing yet. Because we've got to keep this movie. But this song is fucking great. I really feel it is unfairly slept on.

And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe people are wide awake about it. I don't hear it talked about enough. I feel like when people talk about it, they're like, oh, that's her, that's like the weird rock song. Because it is kind of a rock song. It's incredible. It's so catchy the fucking baseline. It's like, also, I think it's important to point out this is pretty much, I think, the first really sexually explicit lyrical song.

By Madonna? Yeah. And we've only put out one song. She's just. But also, even on the first album, the rest are great. She wrote it. She wrote it. The lyrics are great.

You can tell she wrote it. This is a great. song, I love it so much. I have no shame. I'm on fire. I'm not the same. I have no shame. I'm on fire.

This song is very autobiographical. Do you want me down on my knees or bending over backwards now? Would you please? Yeah. Like, is she desperate? Get used to it. It's fucking Madonna and takes no prisoners, you know? I love it so much.

She's alive and she knows that she wants that you want to want her. You want to want me, but you can't let go. Come on, let go. It's just great. It's great. Okay, Stephen Bray and Paul Pasco play guitar and do programming. Fred Zarr, Butch Jones and Ed Walsh on synth and Bobby Moloch on tenor saxophone, all produced by Reggie Lucas, who once Sire was like, everybody fucking popped off.

Like, we can invest a little more money. That's enough. Mark Kamens, thank you so much. We need a real producer now. And Reggie Lucas had worked with Roberta Flack. He produced, I think he helped write the song or wrote the song, Never New Love Like This Before? Yeah, that sounds good.

Reggie Lucas said, when Warner Brothers called me about working with Nana, I was the big score. It seemed ridiculous in retrospect, but I was an established professional and she was a nobody. I met with her in a tiny little apartment she had in the Lower East Side. I thought she was vivacious and sexy and interesting and had a lot of energy. I was obsessed with this quote. Most of the people around Madonna at the corporate level did not get her, and for the most part did not like her. You could see them recoil from her bohemianism. Everybody thought she was crazy and gross.

What? They thought she was crazy and gross. Josie Grosy. People are always going to find Madonna disgusting from this moment. Right. Until now. They'll always be people that will recoil. Yeah.

By Madonna. You're so right. And that's part of like the most insane appeal. The B side of burning up is physical attraction written. I love physical attraction. Roger Lucas wrote it. We need to talk about it as the artwork. Cover art.

Martin Bergoin designed it. Yeah. He was inspired by Andy Warhol and the cover of the Rolling Stones, Some Girls, in 1978. But again, interestingly, because of the color palette, an author named Mark Bego, who wrote Madonna, colon, blonde ambition, he observed that the design obscures her skin tone, so she could still be mixed racer of Puerto Rican. I have heard from many a friend who was around at this time, like black and Puerto Rican friends of New York. Yeah. But it was very that.

Like you didn't know, you just assumed that Madonna was black or Puerto Rican or mixed race, yeah, yeah. Because it is, that's like where it is. And then it was really cool and it was very of that thing. Okay. Great video too, by the way. I got to point out, directed by Steve Barron. Yeah.

He had done Toto Africa and Billy Jean by Michael Jackson. I never heard of it. It's a fine video. She's just so pretty. Yeah, she's so pretty in it. And she's writhing. around. I actually can feel myself right now as a seven-year-old

being like just her in the middle of the street maybe. There's a car. Yeah, like on concrete and there's a car and she's sort of bending over backwards. Now would you please? Yeah. Okay, now I need to talk about Shikoni Youth because again, pertinent to the Bandsplain audience.

Like we said, Sonic, Thurston and more Kim Gordon and Madonna were names. Shikoni Youth is a Sonic Youth side project that featured Mike Watt and Jay Mascus and it was actually Mike Watt, as you guys know, from the Minutemen and Firehose. When Dee Boone from the Minutemen passed away, he was very depressed and he visited Sonic Youth,

and they were like, okay, let's start a side project, let's like get him doing music again. And so in 1986, a 7-inch singles released in the United States on New Alliance Records under the name of Chikoni Youth, and it was Mike Watt performing Madonna's Burning Up. Well, also the B side of that, just so you know, is a cover of Into the Groovee,

called Into the Groovy. Nice. Just wonderful, wonderful, fucking. stuff. Again, this is not until 86, but just know that that exists, you guys. And just like comfort yourself in your heart that that exists. All right, Burning Up is doing well. We have two singles out. Madonna and her crew, Erica Bell, Bags Riley, Martin, and her brother Christopher fly to the UK for two weeks of little shows. They had a name for them, track shows. Is that what, do you remember them being called? I don't know, but I just remember that they

didn't have a good time. They didn't have a good time. They basically, I think the track show is like, There's no band, there's no music. It's just like... Oh, track, right, right. Yeah, they're playing the track and then they're dancing and maybe lip-thinking. Yeah. They played the Hacienda in Manchester,

which I'm just like absolutely deceased, dying, imagining a fan fiction where her and Sean Ryder from the Happy Monday's Cross Pass, which they would have, because that's the exact Happy Monday's time. Right. She gets into some British music magazines.

There's a quote for her and a thing called Flexi Pop where she's like, I think it's really important to exude sexuality on stage, but I don't think I have to entice men. I don't think people have to be aroused sexually by what you wear. I get over that by way of being sexy just by the way I sing and move on stage. All right, they get back. It's time to keep working on the album. Madonna's a little feeling, if I'm, should be so bold to say,

a little hemmed in by Reggie Lucas's production style. She said, it wasn't until my first album was three-quarters the way done that I realized, hey, I know a lot more about this than I'm allowing myself to speak out about. So I started going backward and stripping the songs down and making them more sparse. Until then, they'd been layered with a lot of stuff. I mean, I never knew love like this before, guy is coming in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can imagine,

yes, and this album, Madonna's production is very sparse, so she clearly got what she wanted to a certain extent. Totally, which again makes so much sense because she comes out of the, she's just come out of Emmy and the Emmys, like, playing kind of post-punk new wave, which is kind of sparse, you know? Okay, so ain't no fun.

Anyways, it doesn't even know that phone. It doesn't matter. Yeah, because that song doesn't exist because it got sold to another artist. Oh, okay, got it. And it couldn't be on the album. And they were like, fuck, we need a song. So Rosenbot, the A&R, takes Madonna out to L.A. To meet with Warner Brothers to try to be like, hey, can you give us more money?

Hey. Because they needed another song to finish the album. They're out of money. And he remembers going to his mom's house. And he's like, my mom pulls me aside before we leave and goes, do you think you should tell Madonna to take the rags out of her hair before you go meet Warner Brothers? The rags are so good.

Also, I want a positive thing, which I didn't find any direct correlation, but I'm so interested to know, because I don't know if you remember, but Viv Albertine and the slits and Ariup did that with their hair. Okay. And also, Vivalbertine really had kind of a similar style of, like, little like lacy tights and like shoot you know i'm wondering if madonna ever saw that because or if it just trickled its way down anyways he brings her importantly to freddie demand okay or seymour stein does who at the time was managing michael jackson right and he was like okay i'll come

see you flies out how long does freddie become her manager for for a really long time yeah yeah i think it's a really long time until he's like retiring because he's old. Okay. Yeah. Because they start Maverick together. Like, it's quite a, quite a long time. He flew out to Sierra Studio 54 for Fury's 50th anniversary party on my birthday, May 19th.

I was one. Performance is a hit. Freddy Demand is in. However, Michael Jackson is no longer his client. And they thought that she would be bummed about that, but she was actually apparently thrilled because she was like, you can pay more attention to me. I'm the most important now. This is the part that you liked when she goes to the Seder.

Yeah, oh my God So Michael Rosenblatt in L.A. I brought her to a singer. Rosenblatt. You guys, I know you understand what that means. Well, Seymour Stein, Mo Austin. These are all Jewish people. These are my people.

They go to Chasin's restaurant and she sings verses of the Haggada. Oh, God. Can you sing a couple verses of the Haggada? Di, die anew. Oh, oh, shit. The Hagata. I'm sorry, am I saying it wrong?

Well, no. You know. Let my people go. But Madonna vibes It's great It's fucking great She's wearing her crosses It's so good

That's great But guess what Everyone loved her They loved it That she was so charming And they're like Yep Here's 10 grand

Go make another song Yeah Madonna has a new boyfriend I'm not laughing It's so cool She should I should be so lucky She's had more

boyfriends in one year than I've had in my life And this new boyfriend is named John Jelly Bean Benitez Yeah one of the main Boyfriends You might have heard of him

Yeah He was I guess at the the time one of the most important deities in New York City. He was raised in the South Bronx by his mother who had emigrated from Puerto Rico. The place he did here is called Fun House, which had originally opened as a gay club, and was kind of struggling, but Jelly Bean came and brought in like a Latin music scene and audience. So she's like, my album's almost done. Can you please remix these three songs, which were burning up and Lucky Star? And Michael

Rosenblatt told him, listen, if you can find an eighth song for the album, you can produce it or whatever, I'll give you a bonus. I don't know. And he's like, guess what, bitch? I have one right here. What's it called? It's called a holiday. Good, thank you.

First, one more piece of information, then we're going to talk about the album, and the piece of information is a woman named Liz Rosenberg ever heard of her bitch. She's the gatekeeper of Madonna and press. Yeah. Madonna Press. Press. Like, remember, this is like, you know. I just have to say that this is like 40 years before the Internet.

And like she is gate kept, but she's also everywhere and hugely famous beyond belief. So it all has to go through Liz Rosenberg. So she really is famous in her own right. I think she was really crucial. Yeah, I do so. Her other clients share Prince Rod Stewart and Van Halen at the time. Incredible. All right.

Madonna. The album. The album. It is released July 27, 1983. Look at it. Look at it. Gorgeous. Look at that fucking motherfucking album.

What a face. What a great album, guys. The sleeve is designed by Martin Burgoyne. No. The Martin Borgoin one didn't work out. It's sort of like she's wearing a yellow outfit. Right, right. She said it wasn't iconic enough.

So he initially designed one. Yeah. Madonna was like, no, no, no, this wasn't iconic enough. And it's not, it's not this. This is really, really good. So this one is actually shot by Gary Heary and art directed by Karen Goldberg. Okay. I'm assuming that Maripole styled it.

Well, I'm judging. Because of the mix of rubber bracelets and chains and all that. She invented the rubber bracelet. I think Marypole was styling her this whole time. Like for the Furrici party. Like she's, once they kind of met, and I didn't really, we didn't talk about it. But yeah, she's like really in the mix. And Christopher Chaconi said in his book that, like, she had the greatest influence, at least in the early look of Madonna.

Well, you already know it went five times platinum and sold 10 million copies worldwide. But let's go through the songs. Yeah. Oh, my God. Let's do it. Lucky Star. I love Lucky Star. I want you to know that she wrote it on a Cassie.

tone keyboard that apparently Michael Rosen bought or Seymour Stein, if two different stories gave her, and written by Madonna. And she clearly loves it because she's still playing it now. Yeah. I think, well, again, she wrote it. So I think that's a tell-tale sign of, you know, I'm going to love this song. It's one of the first songs I wrote and it was a hit. Lucky Star does have a video.

The Lucky Star video is cute, by the way. Yeah, Lucky Star is a cute video. Burning Up is a cute video. Borderline is a Madonna video. Well, let's talk about the song first. Reggie Lucas Borland. I want to talk really briefly at the Lynn Drum Machine, which is used all over this album. I just think it's interesting for people that maybe did not remember a time before Ableton or whatever.

Before the LM1, which was the precursor of the Lynn Drum Machine, created by American Engineering guitarist Roger Lynn. He was like, you know what, drum machine sound like shit. I want a machine that really sounds good. and the keyboardist of Toto, Steve Procaro, was like, why don't you record samples of real drums? Because before that, that's not what drum machines were. They were like synthesized, made of synthesized sound. What's so crazy is there's a guy named Art Wood,

who I don't know if he's still alive, played most of the drums on this Lynn Drum Machine, and this limb drum machine was used on like every song in the 80s. So every song you've ever heard in the 80s is Artwood playing drums. That's so interesting. And the hand claps were by Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers. And the first song ever to hit the top 10, using the one, well, the first one, I think,

was Human League's love action. Great song. Great song. Anyways, that's what... Also, I would assume Toto, the keyboardist of Toto would have been a good person to get the advice from, because Toto's keyboardist was incredible.

It was a fucking major player. Yeah. They used the Linn drum on this album a bunch. They also use some live drums, but it's mostly Lind Drum. And then the piano you hear on board. borderline, which I think gives it like that beautiful bit of melancholy is a Fender Woods. Let's talk about the video.

I think what's really important to note is who directed it. Mary Lambert. This is going to be a long time creative collaboration. Absolutely. She was art school friends with Tina Weymouth and Chris France from the Talking Heads. And she had tried to direct a video for the TomTom Club. But I guess Sire didn't want to do it or didn't want to hire her. And instead, they were like, why don't you do this Madonna video?

and that's how it happened. I can't. This video, the story, the arc, she's caught between her Latin boyfriend and this rich British photographer. I don't really know how you're supposed to know he's British because he never speaks and obviously it's a music video,

but in the description it says he's British. Did you get that from him? All I can see is her at the photo shoot spray painting, but his car. Yeah, with that big bow on her head. It's just life-changing. Anyway, she's so beautiful, even with that fuck-ass striped hat with the bow. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Yes. If you could look good in that fuck-ass striped hat with the big bow, you're the most beautiful person on earth. If I wore that right now, absolute clown ours. Recently, I saw some like restored high-res. I wish I knew where they were on my phone. Pictures of like the fluorescent green pumps and the leggings and stuff, and it just goes so crazy. Orange. All right, we talked about burning up already because it was a single.

What about I know it? newsflash, I'll go on bandsplay and talk shit about stuff and be like, I'm not interested in that. Yeah. But that's not going to happen on this episode. I have nothing to say, but, but like, love. I love I know it. There are a couple songs where I'm going to come out and say this is not for me, but this is not one of them. No, sorry.

There is not a song on this album that I don't love. I love them all. Obviously, I know it is an album track. The thing about that song is it sounds very dated now. Holiday. Now it's time. Okay, I got to say, I don't give a shit about holiday anymore, but obviously it's amazing. Do you think it's because you heard it too many times?

I think I've heard it too many times. But if I am listening to this album, I'm going to skip holiday, but it's great. Holiday's great. It's great. Okay, I'm going to tell you the story of it real quick. This is the one jelly bean benedas brought in. It was written by Curtis Hudson and Lisa Stevens that were in a band called Pure Energy. The original sounds a bit different, obviously, because Madonna, Madonna,

it up and jelly bean jelly bean jellybidden it up madonna plays cowbell that cowbell on there that's madonna ding ding um the background vocals were norman jean wright and Tina baker and this also has Rhodes piano which also gives it a bit of melanchise why holiday is so good because holidays it's like celebratory song but it has an undercurrent of like a bit of sadness it really is the song of like oh you can go out saturday bitch but sunday's gonna come yeah yeah you know so it actually came out at first as a double a side with lucky star it hit number 31 on the dance Club songs. But then, a month later, it hit number one and stayed there for five weeks.

Yeah. Hey, do we know what it got to on the Hot 100? It peaked at number 16. This makes sense with my punk palace memory of, like, it's pre-super stardom. I remember ripping out from Star Hits magazine a picture of Madonna from Holiday and putting it on the wall in the basement where I created a punk palace. punk house. And it was dreadlocks.

It was like pre this hair. There's only a few photos of that on the internet. Yeah. Oh, interesting. They seem to be like temporary dreads, like not like real, real dreads, you know what I mean? Maybe. It was just like somehow...

Like gel or something, you know? I think of Holiday as being the dreads, and it's right before she really pops. Holiday is the crossover song, for sure. Think of me, I just, for some reason, have no notes on, even though I like the song. I love it. Next?

Physical attraction. I love it. You said you don't love it. I think burning up is stronger. I was just making the point that I understand why burning up is the A side and as a B said. I do like it. I can't stress you enough that these first three albums, I can forget everything on earth. And the last things when I have dementia and I'm going out will be the lyrics to all of these songs.

I realize I hadn't put on, and this is my bad because what the fuck am I doing with my dumb life? I hadn't put on true blue in so long. And I put it on and I was like, every word right here. Top of the fact of mine, I'm catching my whole. If I'm walking my dog, I'm singing in the top of my lungs, I know every word from point one to the end of the fucking CD. Yeah, me too. It's never going to leave. It's never going to leave.

I feel the same way. And everybody is the best. Where is it? Come on dance and sing. So, okay, she gets offered her first, I mean, if we don't count a certain sacrifice or the egg, raw egg eating movie. Which we don't. She gets her first role in a small, or the film is not small. The role is small.

Vision Quest. I don't know who's directed by it, but produced by John Peters. Yeah, which we love. I caught it's shot in Spokane, Washington. She plays herself a club singer. This is important not because of her acting art, because she's just singing songs, but because what do we get from this?

A little song. Gambler! That's the one you went to first? No, I was just heating you up. I was gassing you up. What's the song? Crazy for you, babe. Crazy for you.

But, ba, ba. Crazy for you. Okay, I'm going to paint you a picture. I'm in the first grade Yes you are I'm in love with Ryan Yamamoto Yes you are I'm sitting on the monkey bars

Yes Singing this to myself Gazing lovingly upon Oh wow Yes Yearning Yes If you're out there

Ryan Yamoto Who went to Arnold Elementary school in Torrens California Just know that I was singing Crazier for you on the monkey bars Gazing lovingly at you Across the Playground

Written by John Bettis and John Lind Breakout Song of the film The gambler is fine. Yeah, it doesn't matter. Gambler doesn't matter, but Crazy for you is one of the greats, yeah. And there was a third song, apparently, that she had just reconciled with Stephen Bray. It's called Warning Signs.

It is not used. I've never heard it. Okay. I'm sure you could, but I have not. Yeah, me neither. Jelly Bean produced both these songs. Now it's 84. In January, it's when she starts to hit the circuits, Babe, to do holiday press.

And that includes Dick Clark's American bandstand, from which, A, we get a very iconic look. just a few layers of studded belts looking cool as hell and we get the best little interview clip. Yes. What does he say to her? What do you want to do, I think?

And what does she say? To rule the world. Yeah. Yeah. I want to rule the world. That's great. Then she goes on top of the pops in the UK with Christopher and Erica Bell

and then she does the Tube live special back at the Hacienda in Manchester, Christopher Erica Bell. She does Burning Up also. This is an insane tidbit. I previously said about the Hacienda that I was imagining fan fiction of Sean Ryder from Happy Mondays.

Oh, but don't worry. A real thing actually happened. Not with Sean Ryder. Apparently, Peter Hook from New Order came backstage during this time and was like, here's 50 quid, can you give me a private dance?

And she was like, fuck off. Yeah, wow. I live for this detail. I don't know if it happened, but it was in Q magazine in 2003, so I must do my intubre to report it. This is when Holiday breaks into the top. 20 like we said 16 because of all these press appearances.

Also one thing I want to point out, Madonna's early look was very midriff forward. Yes. It wasn't anything else in terms of like being revealing except belly button, which I thought was really interesting. People were really fixated on it. And again, I don't remember, so I don't know fashion-wise, but it sounds like the way people talk about it, that was just not a thing.

Like she was kind of a pioneer of that in the like mainstream. mainstream, I guess, and which is why all these little girls started copying her to do it. It's also very rags, you know, it's not, it's a different kind of glamour. Totally, totally. I love it. I love a midriff bearing. Okay, so this is, we're, we're, I don't know if we're like in flames and fuego cooking with gas in terms of career, but like, things are, things are going well. Yeah, things are going well. She's like, I want to do my next album, and I know just who the fuck I want to produce it.

And his name is Nell Rogers. Yes. kind of an incredibly cool choice. Yes. Sheik. Yes, the co-founder of the band Sheik and who had just produced David Bowie's highest selling album, Let's Dance.

And she loved Bowie and more importantly she wanted to make dance music. Yeah. In his book, Nile Rogers recalls meeting her and he says that he expected a young Puerto Rican girl. But he was startled by what he saw, a toothsome white girl stepping Stepping was what R&B bands like the Jackson 5 and most others used to do,

until the likes of Prince moved the scene to more rock-like performance. Now here was a white girl doing intricate choreography, all while crooning holiday, celebrate. She was akin to a young, sexually aggressive white Gladys Knight. But he, I guess, wasn't, like, fully sold until he, like, really saw her, like, charisma and her ambition and stuff. So now Rogers is on board, babe. but another important piece of the puzzle is about to fall into place.

Mo Austin's son, Michael, not a fail son, a success son. He was an ANR at Warner Brothers, and he found a song they thought was perfect for Madonna. It was called like a virgin. They do it. They make it, and it's ready to go.

Right. But Warner Brothers is like, nope, borderline is doing really well. They probably wanted to, like, move the sophomore album to 1985. They just wanted to give the first album time to keep selling, especially because MTV's playing the hell out of Borough line, which I literally three years old remember this.

I really remember it. They were really slucky star, as it's a stand-alone single, like we talked about, as the fourth single. And Madonna's like, I don't care. Many people in interviews have said Madonna was the most impatient person that's ever lived, and I love that for her. But she was like, okay, I'm going to perform my song and another new song, Dress You Up at my good friend Keith Herring's first.

annual party of life celebration at Paradise Garage. Yes. So cool. When they do put out Lucky Star as a standalone single, it's her first song to break into the Hot 100's Top 5. It's happening. The debut album is still really going. And it has a video, but it's just like old dance track dancing.

Yeah, it's great. It's great because you can see that, you can see Christopher and Erica Bell on their dance moves and like, all right, kind of incredibly important. moment right now. Desperately seeking Susan. So good. It's not coming out right now. Five stars.

Five stars. If you haven't seen that movie, just stop the podcast. It's great. Go watch it. Just go watch it. Come back to the podcast. So desperately seeking Susan was written by Leora Barish and directed by Susan Sidelman. Susan Sidelman said 200 actors had read for the part of Susan.

But Sitalman actually knew of Madonna because she lived nearby to her and she was like at Dan Cetria, like seeing her around. So she's like, I want Madonna to screen test for this. Like, I just feel, I have a feeling. I love this. She remembers Madonna coming to the audition, and she gets out of the cab, and she's like, I don't have any money to pay for it. And she said, so here she is meeting a bunch of movie people for a job.

And the first thing she does is hit us up for cab fare. It was exactly what Susan would have done. She felt like she did it on purpose, right? To be like, I method. I really love this part of your thing, this quote. Will you read it to us? Okay. Even when I was testing the other actresses, people like Melanie Griffith and Kelly McGillis, I just couldn't get Madonna out of my mind.

She seemed more secure about who she was than anyone I'd seen. She was somebody who thought she was special and she made you feel special. The key to the character of Susan was that she had to be so magnetic that people were irrevocably drawn to her. Madonna has that quality. It leaps out at you. I think it's so right. She's so great in this role. Few stars have ever erupted like Madonna during the time that this was being filmed and you just feel that energy in a way that Melanie

Melanie Griffith. She's cool. Melinda Griffith is really cool at this time, and so is Kelly McGillis. But there's something about Madonna in that role that it's just so spectacular. I think it's just genius because, like, you can't actually extract one from the other. Like, you buy it because that probably was exactly what Madonna was like. She was, as everyone describes her, she's this magnetic, charismatic girl that's really cool and does her own thing, which is exactly what Susan is. And it's so amazing that we have a document. Like, if you watch Desperleasing and Susan, you can see what everyone else saw. in this early time of this like woman

that you cannot take your eyes off of. Yes. Then she performs with the VMAs, babe, the first ever VMAs. 1984, hosted by Bet Midler and Dan Aykroyd. She was nominated for Best New Artist in a video for Borderline,

but she wanted to perform like a virgin instead. You can watch this on YouTube. Have you ever watched it? Oh, I've watched it 80s. It's so amazing. It's the best thing. It's amazing. It's really her Elvis Presley moment.

What show was he on when he moved his hips and everyone was like, It's sort of like a mix of like Elvis Presley doing his like crotch dance. Yes, exactly. And Miley Cyrus, we don't stop debacle. Because I guess people don't like it. Every adult is horrified.

And they're like, this is the end of your career because you're a garbage pale slut. And you're going like you're going to the dump. Yeah. But actually. But actually it's the best. It's also the best thing ever. I love it so much. Her shoe falls off.

Yeah, she tries to go get it and it shows her underwear. It's just so great. Yeah, she climbs out of the cake and that iconic, like, the Boustier with the skirt with the hearts and the veil and the, you know, takes her hair down and she has the boy toy bell. Maybe a light simulation of masturbation if you wanted to see it that way, if your fear mind is in the daughter. She's gringing.

She's humping the floor, right? Yes, yeah. Okay. Annie Lennox called it very, very horish. It is very, very horrid. It was like fucking the music industry. Yeah. I love that.

I do too. I think she meant that as a diss, but actually it's like such a huge compliment. Cindy Lopper on the other hand said, I loved it. It was performance art. Madonna later told Howard Stern that her manager, Friday, New Man, came up to her after and was like, your career is over. Like, do you know what you just did? Like, you just said, right? And she said, I wasn't that apologetic.

I said, well, fuck it. I made a mistake. I love it so much. It's so great. Don't worry. It wasn't a mistake. It made her even more famous. Also, it made the VMAs matter because apparently one of the founders of MTV was like, we had to beg people to come to the first VMAs.

Like, nobody wanted to show up. And then the next year, everybody was like dying for an indict. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because it was a spectacle. It was a spectacle. It was like, must see TV. Oh, I remember. I remember it.

Mario Poll said, because she styled her for it. And she was like, I watched her as we got into the limousine. She looked at the kids and wondered why she was there. She wanted to be with them on the street, cheering for herself. I looked at her face. There was pure innocence and joy. Guess who else was in the audience for that? Jean-Paul Gautier.

You ever heard of him? I have. I wonder why he was there, but he said he even remembered he was surrounded by mostly business people who were horrified, and there were just a few young fans and me who absolutely loved it. That is when I realized

that she couldn't care less what others thought of her, and I also saw how powerful she was. Yes, Madonna. Let's go. Now it's time for sidewalk talk. Justice for Sidewalk Talk. Comes out before like a virgin.

Yeah. Same month. And that is a jelly bean Benita song. Is that right? It is. She sings the chorus. It's not a Madonna song. I just love it.

Even though Sadwalk Talk didn't take off quite maybe as the way it should have, like a virgin does, the single that is released October 31st, 1984. I just want to say before we get into this, I am really sad we don't call people fine anymore. My whole youth, we were like, oh, that guy's so fine. Yeah. Nobody says that anymore.

It's gone. It's so sad. Yeah. It's such a nice way to describe someone being attractive. He's so fine. So fine. Yeah. Okay.

So, Billy Steinberg, who, who wrote the lyrics of this song, the music was by Tom Kelly, said, I was saying, I've been battered romantically and emotionally, but I'm starting a new relationship, and it just feels so good. It's healing all the wounds

and making me feel like I've never done this before. Hence, like a virgin. Nile Rogers was like, I don't know about this song, babe. But Madonna was like, look, at a certain age, all young girls talk about is losing their virginity, which I think is very true. And she really had, again,

her instinct is so good. Like how many myself amongst them Like young girls are going to hear this and be like So like intrigued by it So great Do you like the video? I do like the video Directed by Mary Lambert

She just looks so hot and it's the most 80s thing ever And it's it's They shot it in Venice Italy Yeah It's just very horny and hot It's horny It's horny it's hot And what's in it besides a lion

A gondola Madonna writhing around in a gondola But two madonnas There's like, there's like a street sassy Madonna, and then there's this like sort of like bridal Madonna in the like Palazzo or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The two Madonna. I'm obsessed with the line. We used to just bring a lion and make a video.

We used to bring a panther and make a movie. Who's that girl? What the fuck? Now we use CGI? Yeah, it's just horrible. Rough. I want to just talk about things that's so important to me personally. Literally the first words of Reservoir Dogs is Quentin Tarantino.

saying, it's all about a girl who digs a guy with a big dick. The entire song, it's a metaphor for big dicks. I totally agree with that. It's a metaphor for a big Italian uncut cock in Italy in Rome. That's the lion. You and Quentin Tarantino think the same thing. I'm more of a Mr. Blonde, which he said, no, it's about a girl who's very vulnerable. She's been fucked over a few times, and she meets a guy who's very sensitive.

I think he might be sensitive and very, very, very home. Also have a big cock. Yeah. Quentin Tarantino goes, whoa, whoa, whoa, time out. Green Bay. Tell that to the fucking tourists. Like a Virgin is not about some sensitive girl who meets a nice fella. That's what True Blue is about.

Everything, everything that this is so good. It's so perfect. It's so amazing. It's so good. They talk about Mononor for another like four minutes. Wonderful show. Can we please flash the Like a Virgin album cover shot by a baby Stephen Mizele on the screen? I believe it was style by.

Paul Kovaco. Madonna once told me that Paul Kovaco was the person that put her in a Bustier for the first time. Oh, so it wasn't Maripole. And she was like,

no, Paul Kovaco put me in a Bustier for the first time. I'm not trying to start fights. I'm just telling you what Madonna told me. This is the way she looks. This is the way

you guys, this is the way she's giving. Look at this. The boy toy, the baby's breath. The skirt with the heart embroidery on it? A huge pearl ear. hanging.

Oh, yeah, two Look at those earrings. Yeah, she has a pearl and a cross. All right, let's talk about November 12th, 1984. Nile Rogers produced this. When they first got to work, Madonna was like, I have five songs that I wrote. Four of them were with Stephen Bray, one me,

and four others that other people wrote, and I want them on the album. And if you don't love all these songs, we can't work together. And he was like, well, to be honest, I don't love all of them. But I can promise you this. By the time we're finished with them, I will.

It's a good answer. It's a good answer. And they worked out of the loft that she lived in with Jelly Bean on Broom and West Broadway. They were living together. Yeah. I like who you called it baby Stephen Mizzle, but he was 30. Yeah. Mizel, sorry, Stephen Mizel was 30.

Yeah. She said, before I worked with Stephen, I just showed up in the clothes I was wearing, stood in for the lights, and got my picture taken. With Stephen, a team of people descended on me, started to undress me. Someone grabbed my hair. Another grabbed my face. Another started helping me try on bits of clothes. And they all seemed to be speaking a language I didn't understand.

The language of Stephen Meisel. They had actually worked together one time before this in 83 in a photo shoot published an Island magazine. Got to see that. I've never heard of such a thing. Yeah. Do you know about that Island magazine? No. In my notes, it says styled by Maripole.

Yeah. But who knows? Maybe it was both because she just talked about that team of people coming and descending upon her. Yeah. That look is the same look she wore at the V. maze, which was styled by Maripolis, so maybe there were tweaks made by call-B- I don't, I don't know. You're trying to start fights.

All I know is that it's great. The reviews were not great. They were not great, babe. The enemy said Madonna isn't a musician and doesn't wish to be a singer. It's rude. Shut your damn motherfucking holes. I think it's a good time to get into Madonna's voice. Okay.

I actually have thought about this quite a bit. I love the early Madonna recordings or the way her voice sounds. It has this very girlish quality to it. And also, it's so unique. And also, I don't think that she's a bad singer, the way people say. I've also thought about it recently. And also when I was preparing to be on Bansplain, listening to Madonna, as if I don't

listen to it all the time anyway. But sometimes you're like, oh, wow, that isn't. And then you're like, yeah, it's Madonna. But that's also what's so great about Madonna is it's Madonna. It's just truly Madonna. And I know that sounds like I'm not saying it right, but like that is literally what it is. And that's what makes it so irresistible. It's not classically trained or something.

It's just truly Madonna. Well, yeah. And I do you think, I think that's kind of crucial in my opinion to being a pop star is like being a pop star is about having a unique identity. Right? It's a good voice and it's very distinctive. And I love the girlish quality because she's reaching young women. And you hear it and you're like, that's my girl, you know? Yeah.

Anyways, that's my little sidebar. I'm with you. Who cares? That's not important. What's important is the LA Times called her a sheep in pain. And they're wrong. Don't worry, the fans, they loved it. Yeah.

It hit number one in the USA, this album. Yes, it did. Triple platinum by February of 1985. Yes. Couple months. This, I loved this fact. Nail Rogers, at first, wasn't buying what was Madonna was selling, right? And then he was like, okay, I'm in.

Not only am I so in, I will reject Warner Brothers' offer of 3% royalty on the album, which was pretty standard, in favor of 2% on the first 2 million sold and 6% retroactive after that. And Madonna's first album had only sold 300,000 copies. So Warner Brothers was like, yeah, you're nuts, okay, you're never going to get that. and then they were really mad and they tried to make Madonna pay that percentage and Madonna's lawyer was like bitch you thought

no and Seymour Stein said in his book because like it hit six million copies by the end of 1985 Seymour Stein was like from here on and Warner was pretty much going to accept whatever Madonna wanted she was in charge now yes 10 times platinum

10 times platinum what a jump right like from holiday not even breaking the top 10, but then borderline picked up steam on MTV, like, kind of the label was right to delay it, because, like, they really let this, like, thing build. And then when, like, a Virgin hit, it was, like, off to the races. Yeah. Let's talk about the songs.

Okay. Like a Virgin, we love. Well, it's not on Material Girl. Wow. It's the first song on the... Material Girl is one of my early memories. And just, I remember hearing it in the kitchen on a kitchen radio and being like, what's so fun.

And I didn't know what campy meant, but I got it. I got the humor. Yeah. I got the campiness and like the fun humor and like the sort of jokey vibe that she was going for. I really locked in on her point of view. And I loved it. You've identified something really important about Madonna going forward that I think we all, we need to really identify, which is Madonna is a comedic person. She's a comedic actress.

She is a comedic, her like positioning is often one of comedy. and it's really true here. What a fucking jam. It's a great song, and it's such a great video. Oh, my God. When they cut my heart open on the autopsy when I'm dead,

it's just going to be a tiny Madonna and that pink dress walking down the red stairs with all the men behind her like this. First of all, I had never seen... Gentleman Prefer Blonde. Gentleman Perf Blonde? I don't know what that was.

This was what that was to me. It's like how I saw space balls before I saw Star Wars. Like I loved it, but I were like, what are we referencing? I don't know what you're talking about. It's a great video

whether or not you know what's going on and now that I know what's going on and watched it again last week it's it's just so great so great also really cool that there are multi-ethnic men in that movie like there's like a prominently featured hot Asian guy pretty early on for that to be a thing thank you Madonna yeah thank you Madonna Michael Austin brought that song by the way okay and Mary Lambert directed the video okay yeah Angel we had we've been having heated not even heated but like yeah the the the Madonna Ana Splain group chat where it's all the people that are lucky enough to be on this podcast as a guest like myself have been talking about it today. People are like, we don't like it.

Madonna apparently doesn't like it. No, we do like it. But I think someone was saying Madonna doesn't like it. Madonna doesn't like it. I like it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. It's so cute. I think this song bink. Stephen Bray wrote it with her. It was the third single. we already talked about like a virgin over and over over

you don't give a shit about this right I feel the song is mid but I think the lyrics are really important because it's very Madonna thesis statement Oh you're right Hurry up I just can't wait I gotta do it now I can't be late

You try to criticize my drive If I lose I don't feel paralyzed It's not the game It's how you play and if I fall I get up again now You're right This is the thesis Right?

Yeah you're right Love don't live Love don't live. If you want to know what I'm listening to full blast and a rental car in Los Angeles, it might be love to live here anymore. I just, I love it. I love it. Okay, let's talk about dress you up, which I have such a soft spot for because of my mother's soft spot.

And my mom says she remembers hearing it how crazy in a movie theater. Like, not in a movie. Just like they would play a song before as a preview almost. of a movie. And she was like, what is this? And she was, like, obsessed with it.

I love this song. I remember as a child, she was obsessed with this. And I remember the videos, we would watch it over and over again. It almost didn't make it on the record. Really? Why not?

So this is written by two songwriters named Andrea LaRuso and Peggy Stonazale. I'm so sorry if I butcher that. And he asked them, can you write a song for Madonna in the style of chic? And they took a really fucking long time. And Roder was like, okay, we don't have time to do the song anymore.

But Madonna loved it. loved it and she was like we want more putting this on the album um it's funny because i don't consider this song at all like provocative or offensive but in that summer of 85 um the parents music resource center uh pm rc you might know them for being responsible for putting those um parental warning things spearheaded by tipper gore included dress you up on its filthy 15 list Now I'm like, damn, can you make a comp CD of that? I want the filthy 15 of every year. That would be like the sickest songs.

She said it was very offensive. Well, she's wrong. Why do you think? I'm going to dress you up in my love. Dress you up in my love all over your body. I guess, I don't know. It doesn't matter. It's a fuck them.

I think do you want me to get down on my knees bending over backwards now? Would you please more qualify for the filthy 15? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they hadn't noticed her yet. Right, right, totally, because she wasn't so famous. Okay. Let's talk about Shubidu. This is Yassi's notes.

Shubi do written by Madonna. This is nice, but moving on. Listen, I always say justice for Shubi do. But I guess we don't need to get stuck on this. In what kind of justice you love for Shubu. It's my life and I'll do what I want and I'll listen to Shubi do. Pretender. This feels to me a very Emmy in the Emmys era song.

It's kind of in that post-punk vein. Don't you feel like that sort of like new wavy? It's like a new wavy song. I like it. I like it too. Yeah. He's a richard, regenta. Stay.

Dude, I love stay. Scooby-d-scubid la-bo-a-bop, yeah. I love it, too. Don't be afraid. It's going to be all right. I don't think that, like, a virgin sounds like today. The kids in my office are always talking to me about different things that their generations are rediscovering, or discovering for the first time of Madonna.

But, like, no one's ever talking about this album, but I love it. I think, and if you're a young, person, please contact me, but I go to bed at 8, so do it within the hours of 6 a.m. to 8 p.m. I feel that these first two albums are, like, illegible for young people. It's too 80s sounding. Like, it's too distinctive of that time that they, like, are like, I don't like this. I assume. I don't know. I would understand that. I just, I don't care. I don't care. I love it. I'm kidding. This makes me feel, like, safe and at home. You know, like, I feel like that, yeah. But I could see them connecting with True Blue because of the production

value is completely different. And while obviously it does sound a bit of its time, it sounds, there's less like obvious, like, lucky star synth and like things that are like really put you back into a different time. I want to talk about the cover of Rolling Stone. It's her first Rolling Stone cover. It's great. It's called Madonna goes all the way. She looks so gorgeous.

So gorgeous. Written by Chris Connolly. Although it's kind of a shitty profile and this is not going to be the first time, babe. It's going to be the first time. What do they talk about the whole time? It basically focuses on how she like, I don't know if it, yes. I don't know if it like explicitly says this, but it's kind of like the implication in my opinion

is that she used men to get where she is. Yeah. Again, this is only my subjective view. It didn't seem at all like she was like, oh, I'm going to fuck that guy to get ahead. Also, poor is the man whose pleasures depend on the permission of another. She don't care. She's hot.

They're hot. She wants to fucking have a good time and get ahead. It's just like she's a fun. girl who has one goal and it's not to marry you. Yeah. You know? And like she had like, you're not the one. You're not the one.

The one is the career, you know? Yeah. You guys, do you remember desperately seeking Susan that we brought up earlier, five hours ago? Remember that. That's been filming this whole time that we've been putting out like a virgin and skyrocketing in fame. So keep in mind, she got cast in this movie as like, you know, a sort of like cult dance hit artist. and now she's like an international superstar and people are starting to come to set being like

is this a Madonna movie? Is Madonna here? During the prep for the launch of the movie is when she meets her Brits. Important Gay Alert. Yes. He's hired to shoot an ad for the film and he remembers that she arrived very early and marched into the studio with all her boy toy belts

and black lace, very definite. She said, I've seen all your work in Leia magazine. You're good. Just like that. She knew who I was, even though I'd only been shooting for a couple of years. She always did her homework. So in the memory of the editor of Tatler magazine, Herberts was actually hired to shoot Rosanna Arquette.

And during the shoot, Herb was like, oh, there's this other girl in the next room. She's going to be a star. She really, she's the singer of the film. She's going to be a star. And I imagine Rosanna Arquette might have been a little annoyed by this. I bet you. I'm only imagining because later on there are some quotes from Susan Sidelman about Rosanna Arquette being a little annoyed about Madonna's like sort of skyrocketing fame and how it compromised maybe. her being the star and her being the second lead.

All right, January 1985. We already talked about Material Girl in the single song and the video, but this is actually when the video comes out. It didn't come out when the album came out. One important thing about this video. Big part. Not one important, huge important, majorly important. Yeah.

A 24-year-old man named Sean Penn was lurking around the set during the making in this video. He had been in some big movies, Taps, Fast Times, at Ridgemont High. here's why he was here. He had an assistant named Megan, Megan, Megan, Ocks, who had played a cassette tape of like a virgin in the car while she was driving it around. And apparently in his biography by Richard Kelly, the story is that the tape would be playing, and Sean would be like, Megan, who do you think I should marry?

And she was like, well, I think you should marry Madonna. And he was like, who is that? And she was like, this is the singer-rule listening to. And after that, every time he'd get in the car, he'd be like, okay, play my wife now. And then as fate would have it, you guys, Megan was hired to work on the material. Girl video shoot and she called Sean and she was like, guess what? I'm working with your wife. And so the story goes, Sean was watching MTV with his friend, the director James Foley, and the like a Virgin video came on. And they were like, you know what? Let's go check that

girl out. And they were close to where Material Girl was filming. So they went to rehearsals. And I guess during those rehearsals, the videos producer was like on the walkie-talkie telling Madonna, Sean Penn wants to come visit the set. And she yelled, only if he'll go out, with me after her. And he did come to set, but he didn't talk to her. Madonna said, so I was standing up the top. Played it cool. Yeah, he played it. Or too shy. I think he was shy. Yeah.

Madonna said, so I was standing up at the top of these steps waiting. They were doing some lighting. And I looked down and noticed this guy in a leather jacket and sunglasses kind of staying in the corner looking at me. And I realized it was Sean Penn. And I immediately had this fantasy that we're going to meet and fall in love and get married, which is exactly what happened. It's beautiful. She gave him a flower, basically, before he left. And then Sean said, afterward, I was.

was over at a friend's house and he had a book of quotations. He picked it up and turned to a random page and read the following. She had the innocence of a child and the wit of a man. I looked at my friend and he just said, go get her. Wow. So beautiful. So they start dating in February and just before that I just needed to know that she went on a very odd date with Prince at a restaurant that I assumed Yelma Shira because she said it was a Japanese restaurant in the Hills. Okay. And he doesn't eat the whole meal. And then he's like, will you be my girl? And allegedly she replied, now that's food for thought. She did not want to be his girl, I guess.

But don't worry, she wants to be Sean Penn's girl. And they have a storied and passionate and loving and tumultuous relationship. Okay, desperately seeking season comes out. March 29, 1985. What a fucking film. We just talked about how much we loved it. Has the coolest cameos, John Lurray, Richard Hell, Anne Magnuson. And then one thing that blew my mind, which nobody would have cared about.

back then because no one knew who they were yet but when I saw it a couple years ago at Brain Dead do you remember the documentary about the three those triplets that were separated at birth and all adopted by different families they're in this film oh wow they're just standing outside the police station when her Rosanna Arquette's character's husband and sister go to get her oh wow and obviously like they put them there on purpose because the camera lingers on them and they just probably thought it was cool there was three triplets in the same outfit, but they're the fucking triplets

from the documentary. Oh, wow. So nuts. By the way, desperately seeking Susan did really well, I think, probably on the back of Madonna's fame. Yes. It was a great movie, but it was a small movie. I think it wouldn't have done probably as well. It's an amazing movie because like something, there's a seismic shift going on in the universe and that is Madonna

and she happens to be in it as she's changing the world. Totally. Or starting to like rule the world. And it's just really interesting. It's really well put. It's an unbelievable time capsule of history. that she's in it, and like the energy of that still feels very fresh to me. Totally.

I think you really nailed it. Like, it's like, it's amazing that we have a document of this. Yeah, it's truly incredible. You know the part where she is in the bathroom at Port Authority and flips the, and dries her hair, the hand dryer? That was improvised by Madonna. Incredible. So good. I guess Rosanna Arquette said as an actress, I felt cheated.

I get that. Yeah. She is more airtime, but it is all about Susan. Yeah. She got really good reviews for Madonna did for Susan. Pauline Kale, the icon said she moves regally, an indolent trampy goddess. She has dumbfounding a plumb. And a really important part of just desperately seeking Susan is obviously the song into the groove.

Incredible. Let's talk about it real quick. It became a huge hit on the back of this movie. Yes, but it was not a real song. I don't know how to say this. It was not a commercially released song. This movie did not have a commercially raised soundtrack. This wasn't out anywhere to purchase.

But while they were filming, Susan Sondland was like, oh, we need a song for the club scene. And she was like, do you have anything? And her and Steve Ray had just recorded a demo of this song. By the way, at his apartment, no soundproofing. Like dogs barking in the East Village, rough, SM58 microphone. Actually, they had meant to give it to a French singer named, Natalie Gabe, but she couldn't sing it and turned it down.

And a girl named Reggie, do you know this one? Last Night of DeJ Save My Life? I know that song, yeah. She actually recorded a version of this, but ended up not being her song. Anyways, the point is, they bring this tape in, and Madonna was like, okay, I wanted to test it on the extras, and they were dancing to it, and it was a good song. I had no intention of using it in the movie, but I brought it in and we played it, and we had to do take after take, and pretty soon everyone was starting to like the song, and they were saying, what's the song? Where's it coming from? And I said, it's just a song.

And as the film got nearer to the end And they were doing the final cuts Susan called me up and said look Yeah that comes from interview magazine That's right babe The demo becomes the iconic famous Very famous song And apparently Steve Ray was like we should re-record it

Madonna was like no it sounds fine Yeah which is she's right That's perfect Which is great And so yeah like you said it became a major success Off the back of there's a video given to MTV With footage from desperately seeking Susan And it was so popular that DJs were

recording the video to play at the club. Yes. So sick. And this is the very first song. Madonna has a production credit on. It's into the groove. All right.

First Madonna tour. Did you go? I did it. The Virgin tour? I didn't go. Me neither. I've never seen Madonna Live. What's your first concert?

Ever? Yeah. Like that my parents took me to or the of my own volition? No, that your parents took you too. Gypsy Kings, I think. Okay. Mine was the purple rain. tour. Okay, that's a lot cooler. But I wish

we had gone to the Virgin Tour too. The Purple Rang I do want to say that my parents, Jane and Richard took me and my siblings, Daniel, Kate, and Emma to Blonde Ambition. I hate you so much. Isn't that amazing? I've never seen Madonna. I was 14. Maybe it had been 13. You guys,

if anyone's listening in the team Madonna, I'm sure at least one person's listening, I really worked hard here. I really killed. I'm drinking a Celsius at 8 p.m. If Madonna is going to tour again, could we just extend one small invite to Asi Sallic who's going to have to go to mental hospital from the amount of research I've done here. I've just loved to see her one time.

I've never seen her. It's not fair for me. I am so. I do think that Blan Ambition is the greatest thing I've ever seen in my entire life in any medium. All right. Let's talk about the Virgin tour. 27 city, 38 show tour starts in Seattle, ends in New York. Madonna hired the Purple Rain Tour set designer Ian Knight.

Also, two musicians from Michael Jackson's Victory Tour, the drummer, Jonathan P. Moffitt. And very importantly, Mel, no yawning. The keyboardist Patrick Lent. Excuse me, everyone. I was yawning. The keyboardist Patrick Leonard, who would become one of the most important collaborators of her career. I was going to do it. Oh, but Patrick Leonard's straight. He has as a family. So he's not important gay guy alert. But he's a very important collaborator alert. She makes him the musical director of sorts. And for the choreography, she hires a 24-year-old guy named Brad Jeffries. I just loved this tidbit from Mary Gabriel book

where Jeffreys said he remembered during prep for this tour, he was at Madonna's house and she got a phone call from her business manager telling her she had just made her first million dollars and she was like totally unbothered. She was like, okay, cool, bye, do we have pizza? Wow.

She said in a quote somewhere, but I couldn't find it that she always wanted to be famous but never cared about being rich. Interesting. Which is interesting. And then she got two dancers who would also be backup singers, Lyndon B. Johnson,

who had been on Hill Street Blues. It's 80s, ours. And Michael Perea, who had toured the share. And for the costuming, she hired Marlene Stewart, L.A. based designer. And as her dresser, an emotional support animal. Christopher Chaconne. Marlene Stewart works with her for a while and does a lot of iconic stuff with her. Designed her wedding dress.

Yeah. Well, yeah. It's a little ahead. Style, style the Vogue VMA performance. Yes. With the... Come on. Come on.

Literally. Literally come on. The Beastie Boys open this tour. They have not put out an album yet. And that's such a cool choice. So cool. Total unknown. So,

come on. Yes, they had put out one single called Cookie Puss. Such a good song. They nearly get booed off stage every night. Because all these Madonna girls are like, who the fuck are these? And Freddie Demand actually wanted to kick them off.

But Madonna was like, absolutely not they're staying. Here's what Madonna said about her very first, like, non-track. This is her first real show, right? Yeah. It's actually I found it very moving. I remember the first concert I did on the Virgin Tour in Seattle when everything became big and I had no way of being prepared for it. It literally sucked the life out of me, sucked the air out of my lungs when I walked on stage.

I sort of had an out-of-body experience. Not a bad feeling, not an out-of-control feeling, but an otherworldly feeling that nothing could prepare you for. Teen girls were losing their minds, babe. They're filming the shows. They're losing their minds. A 17-year-old girl at the Houston show told Time magazine, I like the way she handled herself, sort of take it or leave. it. She's sexy, but she doesn't need

men, really. She's kind of there by herself. It's really women's lib not being afraid of what guys think. I love that. I love it, too. It's crazy. It is hard to overstate how important I think Madonna was for young women. Wait, wait, I have to go to this text

that my friend Peter. Shout out to Peter Curry, who's a huge Madonna fan. He, because he was saying, you know what I've been thinking about? Do you know that voiceover introduction where she speaks before the video of the Virgin Tour starts? I want to sing. I want to a dance. I want to be real famous. I want to make people happy. I want people to love me. I worked real, real, real hard. My dream came true. Yeah, I worked real, real hard and my dream came true.

She does in some voice like that. Yeah, yeah. It's like, it's like kind of a cartoony voice. paraphrasing, like, ditsy, blonde voice. But that part, she does say, I worked real, real hard, and my dream came true. Oh, it's so, I have my arm hair standing. I'm so sweet. Okay, here are the songs in order, just so you guys need to know. I do this for all the tours. I think it's important. Dress you up, holiday. into the groove and then she sits on her boom box and says, I want to introduce you to my special friend, my box. Everybody has a box, right? You see, mine is different from other people's. Mine makes music, but you have to turn it on. Do you think that's the first documented usage of the

word box as a vagina? Or do you think that was already in the slang at the time? I think it was in the slang. Okay. Then it's everybody. She made it mass. She made it mass. She made it mass. Yeah. Then Angel. Okay. We love Angel. Hundreds of balloons were released with the message dreams come true from the rafters when Madonna

played Angel. Can you believe? I love it. Then the gambler. Okay, random. I'm sorry, it's random. It's a weird song. And then borderline, lucky star, crazy for you, over and over and burning up. She does get down on her knees during that in front of Paul Pasco, the guitar player. And then

she closed the show with Material Girl. And this I also really liked it. And there was a tape of a man's voice meant to be her father that would be like, get down off of that stage this instant. And she'd be like, Daddy, do I have to? So cute. See, she's doing theater. Yes, she is. This is the beginning of the wannabes, the young girls that would dress up like Madonna.

And it was a sensation. It was like a real worldwide. I just want you to know I was one of them. At 100%, oh my God, I'll never forget you guys. L.A. used to be so cool. So on Fairfax, there was a store called Four Kids Only, was a four. and I had the coolest clothes and my mom would bring me

and I got to like buy whatever one outfit a year and I remember getting this like denim skirt with patches of leopard on it and I would wear white lace tites underneath like footless

and I had a denim jacket that had like white lace in it I thought it was the coolest fucking bitch on the planet in that outfit yeah it sounds fucking cool to me once again I'm like seven or eight years old

but I'm like styling it up I feel it and those little oh my gosh salmon libby little ballet flats with the with the bow. Oh, what was living? A Rolling Stone review of the Seattle show said this. Madonna's clumsy dance steps, funky costumes, and camped-up come-ons made her appealing and

surprise likable. She's not some perfect unattainable sexual icon. She's a real person like her fans. A lot of the press at the time focused on her looks and her style and the exposed midriff. It's like they'd never, this is why I was saying, was this not a thing? Because it's like they'd never seen this before. Share had her fucking belly button out all the time. She did.

This is what Madonna said to record magazine. I think people want to see me as a little tart bimbo who sells records because I'm cute and record companies push them because they know they can make a quick buck on my image. People don't want to like me. And that's because you're not supposed to be flirty unless you're an airhead. And they say, I do all this stuff to my appearance and look the way I do because I want to please men. I'm doing it because I like it. If I don't like it, no one's going to. I do it because it turns me on.

That's right, Madonna. That's right. This tour is targeted by the religious riot who pickets outside her shows, and also she receives death threats. She's called The Daughter of Satan. The daughter of Satan's so sick. Can you imagine this is like how different 1985 is that you got death threats for showing your belly button and kneeling down on stage? Yeah. Can you imagine if those people could be transported to 2026 and see what the fuck is going on at Coachella?

Yes. well, I mean, they're just, they're equally horrible, if not even worse now, but that doesn't bother that necessarily. They have other things on their minds. Let's remember. You're so right. Yeah, they haven't gone away. Even more conservative, nightmareish time. But being naked doesn't, doesn't, being naked doesn't register as like the problem.

Yeah, you're so right. You're so right. All right. In June, she plays a bunch of shows at Radio City, and there's a Madonna lookalike contest at the Macy's and Harold Square. Andy Warhol is a judge and Maripole. How cool is that? Because they had a Macy's

Madonna Land Department. It's just, I bring this up a... Wow, Madonna Land Department. It's so fucking cool. But also, every pop star that's come after has walked in a path that Madonna carved out. Yes. When you now see the way merch

is merchandised by pop stars and the way they create collaborations or whatever, this is all rooted. Madonna was selling like crazy amounts of people. T-shirts and like it was kind of really like she's the one that created the blueprint she did and it's huge all right in june the tour wraps madonna goes down to tennessee where sean is filming at close range good movie honestly really good movie oh oh oh big news big news big news what is it they got engaged oh yeah okay Sean and madonna so they get engaged in Tennessee she told harry

Dean sand Sean asked me to marry him but he didn't say it out loud I read his mind I read his mine back to him. Where were you? And she said in Tennessee at the something in. We were out in the middle of nowhere and 7-11 was the high point of interest there. It was a Sunday morning and I was jumping up and down on the bed performing one of my morning rituals and all of a sudden he got this look in his eye. And I felt like I just knew what he was thinking. And I said, whatever you're thinking, I'll say yes to. That was his chance. So he popped it. Then we went to 7-11 and bought a whole bunch of jawbreakers and celebrated. Sean is my hero and my best friend. Remember when I cried thinking about them getting divorced

40 years ago. 30 years ago. I'm not doing well. Okay, so the paparazzi are nonstop around them. It's already started. I don't know if this is the first time, but this is one of many times that Sean Penn does throw a rock

at a photographer and rips his camera off and beats him with it. Sean is ill-prepared for the media onslaught. And the like imposition and the like no boundary and the craziness. And he also, I think, very famously, was, like, kind of a method actor and was playing all these parts where he was sort of an aggressive, angry person.

And so while he was filming these roles, he was that person, you know? Yes. All right. In July, Playboy published a 14-page spread of nude photos of Madonna. Remember we talked about the art class posing? Okay, well, these people sold the photos to Playboy. Cool, cool story of Playboy. very nice job for you to do that.

Yeah, they did it. And then Pennhouse did it the next week, right? Yes, they definitely had both. I don't know if they were trying to beat each other, but yeah, they didn't do it the next week. It was like a different batch of pictures. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, because she had to eat popcorn to make money.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Listen, you don't have to sell me on the fact that. Also, by the way, if you've seen these photos, they're so not scandal. They're literally, like, kind of like beautiful art photos and like it's like not anything, but this is the 80s, so it's a big deal. And this is the kind of thing. that will take down a star. Vanessa Williams had just had to give her crown back.

Yes. Because the same thing happened to her after she won Miss America. Someone sold these old nude photos of her. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The first black woman to win the Miss America pageant. And then her dreams are dashed. Yes. So it could have been bad, I think.

But in the story, Liz Rosenberg is like, you know what, babe? We're not letting this. This is not going to go bad because fuck them. We're not letting it. And she gets a story in the New York Post. and this is what it says, Madonna on nude picks.

So what? And then the headline was Madonna, I'm not ashamed. One of the best Madonna in New York Post covers of all time. Madonna told Rolling Stone in 1986, I can't say I wasn't devastated by the experience. Sean kept saying, look, this is all going to blow over,

but nobody wants their skeletons to come out of the closet. I think when I first found out about it, the thing that annoyed me most wasn't so much that they were nude photographs, but that I felt really out of control. For the first time, in what I thought to be several years of careful planning and knowing what was going to happen, it took me by surprise. Yes.

I think that's an interesting point because she really was. One thing is, she's going to do his plan. Yes. Do you remember live aid going on TV? I do. Yeah. Did you like sit and like you made it like a point? Yeah, yeah.

I can see the television that I'm watching her perform holiday. Yeah, she did into the group of holiday and love makes the world go around. Okay. Which hadn't come out yet, but she had already written it with her. I can see it. And then she's wearing, like, she's dressed in, like, a, she's making a point to be, like, extremely covered from the neck down. Yeah, she was wearing, like, a long jacket. It was hot and she wouldn't take it off.

Yeah, like, she's wearing, like, a brocade embroidered baby blue jacket. It's giving sort of Sergeant Pepper rock royalty prince vibes. That makes sense because it was Bob Geldof, put it together to raise funds for the famine in Ethiopia. She said it was the first time since the pictures came out I was making a public appearance. Part of me felt about this big. And another part of me was saying, I'll be damned if I'm going to let them make me feel down.

I'm going to get out there and kick ass. Get this dark cloud up from over my head. Fuck yeah, Madonna. She triumphed, babe. Okay, I've been included in the doc the Madonna and Sean Penn wedding invitation. Yes. Drawn by Sean Penn's brother.

Wow. It's an American Gothic type drawing, but like Edward Gorey style. Madonna has a boy toy belt on. She does. Madonna was so famous at this point that they actually could not write the address on the invite They had to like call people on the phone the day of and tell them where it was Because the paparazzi would find out which they found out anyways

They get married on Madonna's birthday August 16th and Sean's is August 17th So they really wanted to do it at midnight but it didn't work out in Malibu at the home of Elda and Dan Unger Sean's parents friends do you want to talk about with Madonna war? Yes, Madonna wore address by Marlene Stewart with a 10-foot train and a pink sash plus a little black bowler hat. Another detail that I love that I'm so glad that you have here is that Sean wore a $695 Versacee suit off the rack. It's kind of crazy to think now, but I think that was like really normal back then. Like not every, not every actor was like outfitted by the Dior Atelier for like everything

they did. It was just like, I'm just going to go get a fucking suit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sure he looked great. He did look great. photos. Wolfgang Puck catered. And Her Brits took the pictures. This is great. The best man was

James Foley, who plays into this whole story, much more with his films and his music video directing. And made of honor was Madonna's sister Paula. Their first dance was to Chariots of Fire. I don't know how... Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun,

it feels corny as hell. It feels corny as hell. It's just weird. Like, what a weird. It's not really to me it's not a romantic song. It feels like nails on a chalkboard. It's just like... And what was going on? That's like having your first dance to the Rocky theme song.

Like, does it... I mean, good for them. Okay, do you want to have an abbreviated guest list? I'd love one. Keith Herring, Debbie Mazar, Mari Pohl, Mo Austin, David Geffen, Christopher Flynn, Diane Keaton, Susan Sidelman, and Rosanna Arquette, Tom Cruise, Harry Dean Stanton, Robert Duval,

Christopher Walken, Carrie Fisher, Charlie Sheen, Emilio Estavis, Judd Nelson, Roblo, Timothy Hutton, Cameron Crow, share and Martin Bergoin who brought Andy Warhol as his tape. Okay, you guys, I want to read this because I was like, oh, wait, I remember this thing that Andy Warhol had said in the Andy Warhol Diaries about the wedding. It was just the most exciting weekend of my life. Martin went down to the hairdresser earlier in the day to have his hair done.

We rode in a limo out to Malibu, and when we saw helicopters in the distance, we knew we were at the wedding. Someone had tipped the reporters off about where the wedding was, and about 10 helicopters were hovering. It was like an apocalypse now. And one helicopter had a girl hanging off with a camera, and they were all trying to get in close. And the security people found camouflage outfitted photographers in the bushes. And I looked really close to Madonna, and she is beautiful. And she and Sean are just so in love. She wore white and a black bowler hat. I don't know what that was supposed to mean. And someone said that Sean had shot at the helicopters the night before. The only

boring celebrity there was Diane Keaton, really. He always hated Diane Keaton. Why? I don't know. He just thought she was such a bitch. And it was the right mixture of nobody's and celebrities. Sean came over to say hello, and the good-looking family of Madonna was there, all the brothers. And you could see Madonna and Sean love each other so much. Really, it was the most exciting thing ever.

Boom, said Andy Warhol. You know what? Madonna's family is really hot. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All the brothers, like everyone's good genes. All got it, yeah. The other fun fact about this wedding, which didn't work,

but Sean had written fuck off in 12 foot high letters on the beach below trying to think like they couldn't take pictures but they were like we'll just crop it babe

they took their honeymoon in Carmel Sean got Madonna 1957 Thunderbird convertible that's the one that's in the true blue video is a wedding gift

this is what Sean said to Vanity Fair in March of 86 nothing I've said so far nothing that I could possibly come up with is as important as her

no movie nothing is as important as her and that's the best answer I can give 19806 is sort of I'm just going to say it's kind of my

It's your jam? It's my jam You're really into 1986? Yeah, Madonna-wise Because that's that's That's 1986 is we're getting to my I'm 10 4 hours ago

And True Blue comes out And you love Shanghai Surprise It's your favorite movie No I've I've only I watched part of it The other day I've never seen it It's clearly not good

Sean is really not working for me Even more than Madonna You'd think it was the other way around I just really don't like Sean's haircut. His beard? His mullet. No, I know, but the beard that they put on in the beginning, it's obviously put on

with, like, a mascara wand. Like, it's so horrible. Right, right, right, right. Also, her glam is all wrong for the movie, but she looks so good. So stunning. She looks beautiful. It's almost worth watching just to look at her. Yeah.

Because she's so stunning. Yeah, she looks incredible. This movie is garbage. It's filmed in Asia. It ruined their marriage. I think it was a contributing factor. And it was really sweet because, like, I think she really wanted to do it. and he did it as a gift to her kind of,

like, I'll be in this movie with you. Right. And I think they both thought the script was good upon looking at it. George Harrison was the producer. It had good signs. Yeah. The making of it is a disaster.

The paparots here hounding them. The British crew hates them. They hated the director, Jim Goddard. It's freezing because they're filming in the winter, but it's supposed to be summer, so she's always in these thin dresses being cold. Sean, by his own admission, was just drunk the entire time. Yeah.

Which is probably why his performance is not top-notch. Yeah. She said, we were on a ship without a captain. We were so miserable while we were working on it. And I'm sure it shows. There's like a physical altercation with a paparazzi with Sean. And I think he goes to jail in Hong Kong. But then they leave jail?

I can't remember the exact story from Mary Gabriel's book. It's a mess and things happen and it's a disaster. Every day is a disaster. Every day is a disaster. Obviously, overtime, and unfortunately, this is not part of your purview, but I'm happy for you to weigh in on it. Because we're going to talk about Madonna's film career as we go forward because it's part of the story.

Some bad shakes, like some unfortunate choices that I think unfairly now characterize her acting career. Would you agree? What do you mean? Can you go a little further with that? Like, Desperately Seeking Susan, like everyone's like, you know. yes, amazing. And then, she had a surprise. And everyone's like, this sucks. Actually, you weren't that good and desperately. You know what I mean? They're like, oh, that was a fluke. This is,

this is what you are on. This movie sucks. So that comes. And then it doesn't really get better. She choose, there's a lot of movies that I like body of evidence. I think it's good and kind of unfairly maligned. She looks so good in that movie. It's crazy. Bye. Yeah. Goodbye. You know what? She has two great movies, desperately seeking Susan and truth or dare. And you know what? That's more than many people have. Truth or dare is a documentary. I know, but it's still a movie. Yeah.

You like, who's that girl? I love who's that girl. I love who's that girl. That's a flop. But... But it's a great movie. It's not a great movie, but I understand why you love it.

I love it. There's something about it that I really love too. It's very charming. But first, true blue. But first, I'm sorry. True love baby. So basically, everything's on the rocks when she... When she lays down True Blue, right?

I don't know. No, I think... I think there's... holes, there's just tiny holes in the boat, but it's not like we're getting divorced. Right, right, right, right. That's like a prayer. Okay. Like, the songs written for this album were written in the spirit of true love. Yes, and you can hear it.

Like, it's bliss. True love, baby, yeah. Yeah. She writes some of the songs on set at Shanghai Surprise. Like, they're still like, I think, I think this is very much in love, you know? Bro, this album didn't have to go so hard. It's so good. It's produced by Madonna, Stephen Bray, and Patrick Leonard.

They were like, we don't need a big name producer. We can do it ourselves. Stephen Bray remembers we were working with this big label, and she had gotten to the point where she didn't really have to answer to them creatively. Like we said, she sold, sell whatever 10 million copies of triple diamond or whatever, like a version was. So we were left on our own to make this whole album. Doing whatever we wanted and letting them in the room we finished was great. So, you know, she's got the disco guy.

I never knew love like this before. and she's kind of up and down with it. Reggie Lucas for the first album. And then she's got Nile Rogers for the second one. And then she really comes into the Madonna sound with True Blue. Yeah, because I think at first, obviously, she's like, well, I don't know how to do it. And obviously, the label, the first album is not going to let her do it.

So they're like, you have this guy. And she's like, okay, great. But then she's like, I don't like how it. Let's strip it back. And then even Nile Rogers, who she chose, she liked it to an extent. But, like, ultimately, she knows what she wants all the time. And also Stephen Bray and Patrick Leonard are her boys, and now she's just like,

let me just do it with my boys. Yeah. The title, which is obviously a song, but also the title, comes from one of Sean's favorite expressions. That's beautiful. The cover is shot by Herbrids. Great, great, great cover. Psychotic.

Also, I think it's interesting to point out that the cover actually didn't have text on it. It was on the shrink wrap, but they didn't want to like sully the image, which is such a cool thing. Yeah. Yeah, and it's one of the defining record covers of the 1980s. It's just so beautiful. It is interesting to think about how hard it was to make album covers back then because there's no Photoshop, man, like you had to type set to bring the types.

It was like you couldn't, there was a limited amount of stuff you could do. Here's what the LA Times said. Some people will never take Madonna seriously, just as many never took Marilyn Monroe seriously. Novelty images, especially that of a sex symbol, are hard to erase. but talent far outshines novelty in Madonna's new LP. The most obvious growth is in the control and character in Madonna's singing, where she previously seemed dependent on clever record production.

Her vocals are so finely tailored that she actually extends the punch and appeal of the production touches. I love it. And they compare her David Bowie. Not all the reviews were positive. The Chicago Sun-Times said this album just isn't as fun as her previous to, which is like... Shut up.

Literally shut up, and also, yes, it is. I think what the LA Times is saying is true, because, like, you and I both love the novelty of Madonna and, like, a virgin, and they feel like a warm bath, I think, to both of us, and we just enjoy it very much. But then True Blue really is, it's just talent. It's objectively good. It's blind ambition. Yeah. It's incredible. It's starting to get to this God-tier thing.

The first single, live to tell. Which is a crazy first single. Yeah. Given that this woman has made her career off, like, fun, damn. dance music. I just, I think the story is really interesting. So Patrick Leonard had already written the, the music part of it in 1985 for a film. It was supposed to be an instrumental in a film called Fire with Fire. The studio was like, we don't want it. And so he shows it to Madonna, and she's like, well, I love this. And he's like, well, we write lyrics. And she's like, yeah,

and you said, you point out, she wrote it in like what? 31 minutes, perhaps, something like that. And I think, I think she already had in my, I don't know exactly, but I think she already had in mind at close range because the lyrics are kind of inspired by the sort of complicated relationship of father and son and at close range. Christopher Walken is the father. Really great movie.

And Madonna's like, okay, well, let me just take it to Sean for the new movie or whatever. And James Foley, who we talked about earlier, the best man, the director, he loved it. He was like, well, he was like, he's like, I want it. And I was like, okay, who's going to sing it?

Because she had written it from the perspective of a man. And she assumed the register was low. She was like, a man just sing this. And they were like, no, you're singing. This is your song. You're singing it. And she was like, okay. And then Foley ended up asking Patrick Leonard to score the entire film.

And the song, once again, just like Into the Rube, the one they use in the film is just that demo. It's just so great. It's just so good. When you got it, you got it. When you got it, you got it. And then they're like, It's going to be the first single.

And Warner Brothers is like, please no seven minute long, um, sad song for first single, please. And she was like, yes, it is. And guess what? It went straight to motherfucking number one on the charts because it's one of the best songs that has ever been written. This. It's incredible.

I'm going to go ahead and say it. I think obviously there's a few production touches that are 80s, but like, I think this sounds so modern, this song when you play it now. Just the construction of the song. Am I wrong? Am I just old? I just love it so much. I just think it's really great. And it always sounds great. It's a forever kind of song.

Her voice sounds so good. It does. Okay, absolute fucking jam. Absolute fucking binger. So good. Second single is the first song on the album so we can go through it. It's your big memory. The drama, babe.

The string opening. of Papa don't preach. Come on. It's so good. Then the fat bass drops. The song is so good. This song is so good. This was written by a man named Brian Elliott.

So this is so interesting to me. Brian Elliott had like a mirror, like a window, a front window that teenage girls would use as a mirror. They would just stand outside of putting on lipstick and he would overhear them talking. And that's how he was inspired to write this song. Okay. It's kind of cool. I love it.

In North Hollywood. Was this controversial? I feel like I remember it being controversial. Okay, so it's very interesting because, like, it's, the song is like so cool to me, and it makes so much, even though she didn't write the lyrics, I think she tweaked them maybe a little bit, but, like, it's a perfect in the hands of Madonna, because this is not an anti-abortion song. This is not a pro-abortion song. This is a song about a young girl's agency, about her right to choose for herself what to do with her life,

which is like a perfect Madonna conceit. But there was controversy because the right wing people were like, this is glamorizing teen pregnancy. And then the pro-choice people were like, you're encouraging people, teenagers to have babies and not get abortions. And she was like, oh, this is just a story. Right. What she actually said was immediately they're going to say,

I'm advising every young girl to go out and get pregnant. When I first heard the song, I thought that was silly. But I thought, wait a minute, this song is really about a girl who's making a decision in her life. She has a very close relationship with her father and wants to maintain that closeness. To me, it's a celebration of life. It says, I love you, father, and I love this man and this child that is growing inside of me. Of course, who knows how it'll end, but at least it starts off positive.

Rolling Stone, this caused them to call her the pop poet of the lower middle class of America, which I loved. Bruce Springsteen moment, babe. The video? Directed by James Foley, who we just talked about. The motherfucking video. Wait, remind me, James Foley is friends with Sean Pazte. Best friends with Jean Pan directed at close range. Got it.

Yeah. And was also hanging out with her. Who's that girl? And was like, right, and directed who's that girl. Yeah. And fear. And fear. I think he's done a lot of stuff.

He's done multiple music videos for her. This is filmed in Staten Island. Alex MacArthur, who I looked up because he was so fucking hot. Right. He's so hot, this man. And Danny A. Yellow as her father. As her father. Just one.

Okay. This is the life-changing moment for Mel Ottenberg. Okay. As a creative anything. as a human being. But like no one in the world is famous like Madonna is right now because she's really,

well, no, no, no, in modern culture, not to diss on everyone in modern culture. Oh, you mean currently. But no one is currently as famous as Madonna and as fashionable as Madonna. No one at this moment

is that famous that is as fashionable or like their actual style as being ripped to struts and copied by the masses and blah, blah, blah. And what she sees is that it's time to change it. So she, whatever she does,

with her gays or with her brother or with her stylist friends or whatever. She goes in inwardly and figures out this whole new thing for herself and then she blasts it with this video. And it's like there's no jewelry. You know, she's got this Gene Seberg thing going on with the hair. The curls are gone.

It's like a cropped hair, the stripes, the leather jacket. Yeah, the leather jacket. The high-waisted black pant with like the belt. It's like very, very, very simple. It's a whole new look. And then she's also in the studio with the sort of like old Hollywood 50s thing with the pedal pusher pants and the Bousier.

Yeah. But again, it's like, it's very like, you know, Madonna land at, at, uh... Macy's? That shit is over, bitch. That shit's all tired. That's old news. This is the new thing.

Throw your bracelets in the trash. You thought Madonna looked like this, bitch? You're a fucking fool. Madonna looks like this. Oh, boy. And that, that is like a thing. That is like, It's not just me saying that.

This is a moment. This is like an incredible thing to study till the end of time is this moment. Yeah, her first major reinvention of her look. Yeah. You sobbed. You sobbed when watching this video. I did not. I think the end is so corny and funny, but I love it.

You love it a different way. You're a woman. I love my dad. I love my dad too. I know, but I just really love my dad. And I'm just like, oh my God, what would my dad do? And then when he's like, I can't look at your talk to you. but then at the end he comes and accepts her and hugs her.

I know in her bedroom with like the pink panther stuffed animal and stuff. It's a great video. I'm hanging on my thread though, as you know. So my mental health is not good. So take it with a grain of salt. But yeah, it's a fucking great video. I love it. Debbie Mazars in it and Erica Bell in the beginning.

Those are her girlfriends. Yes. You know? All right. Are you ready to talk about the fucking one of the best songs ever existed on the history of the world? Yes. I am. Open your heart to me. This, this, I'm gonna say that this is my favorite Madonna song.

It's really up there for me. Yeah. It's really, I want you guys, I just challenge you, you're in a bad mood, you wake up in the morning, maybe you need to walk your dog around a quiet neighborhood, put your headphones in, throw on open your heart, your whole life will change. It's such a great song. It's the best Madonna song. This always makes me feel close to myself too.

Like, I feel like I'm like, I'm close to like every version of me. the human being, the man. I always thought she was saying wudja, wudja, wudja, but it's watch out. That's my favorite. A wichah, a wichia, a wich. Fun story time. Especially for my vegans.

Shout out my vegans. I mean, I'm not a vegan, but shout out my vegans. This was written by, originally, by Gardner Cole and Peter Raffielsen for Cindy Loper. Oh, wow. They lived in Canoga Park.

It was called Follow Your Heart. and why is that? Vegans will understand. There was a health food store in Canoga Park. It's actually, I think, still there, called Follow Your Heart. You might know them now from their mass-produced vegan products that you can find in grocery stores. And one of the guys was in love with a waitress there named Lisa. So the song was actually Follow Your Heart.

Follow Your Heart. It doesn't work as well. I'll make you love me. Madonna changed it to make it better. But what's really important also is that Gardner Cole had a girlfriend. that he asked to record the demo, and her name was Donna Delori. Incredible. Donald Delory is important to the story.

So major. And that's how she gets in the mix and becomes one of Madonna's backup singers. And the guitar is by the guy who played guitar on Billy Jean, David Williams. And Patrick Leonard produced this with her. Correct. Correct. And it's just...

I'm telling you, it is my favorite. It hit number seven. It will always be number one in my mind. The video rips. Bro, we got a really... get into it, Jean-Baptiste Mondino. It's so good. Mondino's first video with her.

Maybe he had shot her, I don't know, but like this is a genius video. It's got so much style. It's very international. It's very world. It's very big. It's very explosive. The style is so sick. I don't know who style it.

Did Marlene Stewart style it? It's very well. The clothes are made by Marlene's. Made by her. Yeah. It's so good. It's so. It's so chic.

It's just, she's, she just looks so nuts, too. She also doesn't look human anymore. This is the moment where, where she's a goddess level. She's goddess level. And I don't mean that it's like, she's no longer just a human.

She's like, real, her body is like really taught and everything about her is changed. I should point out, the like Virgin tour, the Virgin tour, is when she realized, she's like, oh, I can't do this.

Like, I can't, sustain performing for this long and dancing. So she started working out really heavily. She was always a dancer, obviously, but she started like doing more like concentrated, working out for stamina. And this is why she starts to lean out when you get here, you know? I mean, yeah, this is a cabaret, right?

This is a cabaret inspired situation. She even starts out in that little black wig like Liza, which is Mondina's idea. Genius. He said, I said to her, you know, it would be nice if maybe, if you wear a black wig, She was known as being the blonde with short hair. So a few days for the shoot, we had the meeting with hair and makeup, and they work on her, and they prepare her with the outfit and the wig and stuff.

And then she turns around, looks at me with the wig and says, okay, Mondino, tell me what you think. And I look at her and say, well, you look great, but to be honest, I prefer you blonde. She looked at me, and that day she trusted me because she knew more than anyone else that she was better in blonde. Yeah, she's a great blonde. She's an incredible blonde. Obviously, like, it's a music video. So we're getting a bit of story, but it's all you kind of have to stretch your. your imagination to understand the story.

But it's pretty obvious that, okay, this is like a porn-esque theater where, like, a woman is dancing sexy. So the people watching her through these windows, one is a woman and one is two men that I think are, seem to be too gay men. I don't know. There's no real explicit. Yes. But I've read a bunch of things that are like, okay, this is like the first overt

reference to homosexuality and her work, and it was on MTV. Right. Did you notice that when you watch? No, what I noticed when I watched it the other day is just how amazing it is and how well, it's so eccentric and it's such a tight vision and it's amazing. And every single person is dressed so interestingly. Like every detail. And every face is interesting. Like they were cast really well.

And we didn't even talk about the young boy. The boy is like a very specific boy who'd been shot for the face and stuff. Oh, she was one of those buffaloes like nannitary. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's like pictures that you've seen pictures of that boy in like Buffalo. Stiling and stuff. Wow. Yeah.

He's a really specifically cast incredible face. One of the theories about the styling of this boy and also Madonna is that he represented Martin Bergoin because that little hat and the little boy, because that's how he dressed, you know? Right. Martin Bergoin gets sick with AIDS quite early. Yes. I don't know if it's happened yet, but...

I think it probably has. I think it has. Yeah, so that might be why this, like, homage to him in the thing. Because he dies really early. He's, like, 24 or something, I think, when he died. It was so sad. And also Madonna's, like, a real early and fearless pioneer of, like, not being afraid of gay people and people with AIDS. And raising awareness about...

And money. And money, yeah. She's a hero. Okay. White heat. I love it. As I said, the ACAB left my body, babe. I love cops, actually.

It's great I love it I'm sorry I also cried walking I can't explain This one I can't actually explain Again maybe I'm just really unwell But I just

That's like so beautiful Where's the party Like this innocence That's like I love when I love how her voice gets a little ragged Which is like Where's the party You know like it gets a little

Okay well True Blue babe third single Okay um true blue Is a big hit Hey What? Listen I love that song

Yeah I love it Whatever. You don't want you, whatever? I can't, no, no, no, I love it. I love it. I love it. No more sadness. I kiss it goodbye.

The sun was bursting. Right out of the sky. I searched my whole world for someone like you. Don't you know, don't you know that it's fucking good. You can't know more sadness. That like just at my heart opens right up. You just reminded me that. The sunshine.

right through. You just reminded me that I love it so much. Thank you. I mean, this, their love, their love inspired us. Yeah. This is the first instance of her working with Shep Pettybone. Just want to point that out because that's important. He does the remix. He

had worked with Africa Bombada. Did you know that? That's really cool. The video? It's not my favorite video. It's too... Which one are you thinking of? The black and white one? No, the color one. Okay, so do you know the story? It's so interesting. No. That one was never shown in America. Oh. Okay, because. It's so interesting. Because I don't remember it. And then I

watched it the other day and I was like, oh, James Foley directed this. It shot outside of the United States because Sire Records in the United States team of the MTV for a competition called Madonna's Make My Video Contest. And they had fans make videos and submit them for a huge contest. And there was a whole day on MTV where she played all these videos. And they got $25,000, $3,000 people entered, and this is actually really funny. Most of them were like love videos, but one had schoolgirls overpowering and tying up a teacher who spoke badly of Madonna. And another one, an American girl and a Russian boy grow up to become president of the United States and the USSR. Anyways, I would have loved to see that one.

A Venezuelan-born Miami-based college student named Angel Garcia won. And there's a black and white sepia-toned clip, and that became the video. in America. I don't remember this at all. So she's not in it? No. Oh wow. I don't remember this at all.

I don't remember this at all either. But that's just from my research. That lore is lost on me. Mel, y'all mind if a white girl speaks some as Spanol? It's time for Lisona Thomas. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What is she saying in Spanish in this video? Didio, what, how can say,

when I was listening to it on the way here, I was like, do I fuck with this song anymore? I'm like, yeah, I'm like, yeah, motherfucking fuck with this song. The song goes crazy. The song goes crazy. The song goes crazy. Yeah, it goes crazy. My mom was obsessed with the song.

My mom loves a little Spanish guitar moment, and this is like, it's like the best thing that ever happened to her is that Madonna plus Spanish guitar music. Did she write the song? Yes, written by Madonna and Patrick Leonard and Bruce Gage, who I assume probably did the guitar part, and I'm not really sure. This quote's really interesting. So it's very funny because, okay, so obviously the quote or the, The lyric is, I fell in love with San Pedro.

Okay. And everyone was like, oh, San Pedro. Like, is it the island in Belize, the Dominican Republic, Cuba? She's rolling stone. She's like, yeah, I don't know where that came from. And the interviewer goes, are you telling me you never dreamt of San Pedro? She goes, I don't know where San Pedro is. At that point, I wasn't a person who went on holidays to beautiful islands.

I may have been on the way to the studio and seen an exit ramp for San Pedro. I don't know if you guys have been to San Pedro, babe. I actually have just for one photo shoot, but it's not this. Love and respect to San Pedro, but it is not the thing that would inspire. It is not a beautiful island. What's the highway that you're on if you see the... The 110 maybe? Yeah, you're on the 110 going south and you see the signs for San Pedro.

Yeah, it's like, San Pedro's kind of close to Torrance where I grew up, and I remember there, there was like, I remember I still there, was like a bridge or like an underground thing near the beach that was all graffeted and we would go smoke pot in there. You love Jimmy Jimmy, I don't care. Wow. Oh, it's about James Dean. But I feel like the lyrics are so about herself. You're much too wild for this town.

Not a lot here that's going to hold you down. You've got a lot of style to take you far. Take you further than my backyard. I like a new wave song. You're getting me kind of into it. Okay. What do you think about love makes the world go around? Okay, I'm sorry, I love it.

Oh, my God. You don't love it? No, but I mean like... Okay, I mean, yes. Is the lyrical can see a little cheesy? Yes. I don't really like it. But I just, to me, this true blue is just no skips.

Pretty like all kind of in a band of goodness. Like yes, okay, love makes the world go around and Jimmy Jimmy are on the lower band. But they're still, I never skip them. I'm always happy when they come on. I love the like, do-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-of-jim-I. I just love it. I love it. It's fucking, to me,

were perfect. I love, I love this album. I love Madonna in 1986. It's really good. Okay, but AIDS is going on. It's good to remind ourselves, because there's a lot of hard stuff going on in these days, too,

and ain't no one talking about it. No, I think, you know, authoritarianism and like this motherfucking war mongering. War mongering and fear mongering and blah, blah, no one's touching this with a 10-foot pole because everyone just wants the likes and the streams.

We were just talking to my friend Sam about this where he was talking to me from Coachella and he was like, it's so crazy. He's like, there's barely anyone with any sort of political messaging here. Like people in T-shirts, even in the bands. Like, I was like, that's the whole point of art, especially music, as counterculture,

is to like speak up, you know? Like, the strokes did it at Coachella. I just saw clips of it. Like, that was really cool. They were like, they had this whole visual thing about all the heads of foreign states that the CIA allegedly killed, which I thought was really fucking cool of them. But yeah, like, what, everyone, like, people are just, I don't think it's everyone's fault.

I think the way that information is delivered to us now is so psychotic. No, I think it's just like we've given up. We're just like, oh, we're sliding into authoritarianism, and, like, we all love, we all love the dopamine. Right. We've been lulled. Like, Instagram was a sigh-up of the CIA to get us to stop paying an engine. I do believe that. I mean, not no.

I mean, not no. And also, like, being a liberal, being anti-fascism is lame. But you know what? How is it lame? Why, is it cool to be pro-fascist? No, that's the thing. It's, like, seems lamer to me. But anyway, that's just the way it is.

I just think it's crazy that we are delivered, like, 60 different fucked up things that you read about. And not only do you read about it, it's delivered to you in a psychotic meme format from jump. Like, I wake up, open my eyes, and there's an AI video of Donald Trump made by Iran. It's already a joke. Everything's immediately a joke. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's too crazy, and I think people are just like, I don't, my, our brains are short-circuited. Well, the crazy thing about the 80s that we're way too young to, like, really understand. It's easy. Forget is that AIDS is happening, so all these amazing, cool, creative people are dying all the time. and there's all this Christians and the moral majority

and Jerry Falwell and shit and then AIDS deaths are happening and like the president never mentions it doesn't even say a word it's like it's like as if COVID happened and no one talked about it but Madonna and anyway we're bringing it up because Madonna is really talking about it

and she you know not only is connecting with like paying for Martin Burgone and stuff but I feel like she did all this cool stuff about that right 100%. So, okay, so like you're talking about this is going on. Christopher Flynn and Martin Bergoin contract aides and Madonna finds out about her on the same time. She flies to New York and like you said, paid for all of Martin's medical bills and life costs. Madonna and Sean Penn do a play together with David Rape called Goose and Tom Tom. Just want to point that up. She's a serious actor.

She's trying to be a serious actor. And I think she is. And she gets really good reviews for this, even though not that many people apparently saw it, it was kind of a limited run rehearsal type thing. There's also a really great story, which I didn't include in the doc, but you might remember from the book where Martin comes. She makes sure Martin can come and see her and brings him backstage after.

And he's pretty sick then, and his whole face has, like, lesions and stuff on it. And she is, like, arms around him. They're sharing a candy bar. She's like, like, really showing, like, I'm not scared, you know? And it was, like, I think, a pretty big deal, you know? It's a big deal.

I also remember from the Annie Warhol Diaries that she had done like a fundraiser for him just so he could like live really well. He was like living really well. He was living very comfortably in his last moments. Yeah. Pretty awesome. Yeah. Okay, Goose and Tom Tom, second night, Shanghai surprise comes out. And guess what?

To terrible reviews. People are like, this is trash. Yeah. This is one of the worst things we've ever seen. I felt really sad that the paparazzi. were dragging Martin into their like shenanigans and like saying that like Sean is terrified and furious because Martin, you know, Madonna's friend has AIDS

and she's hanging out with her and whatever and he was like, oh my God, like so devastated. Yes. And then they go back to Malibu where they live. Poperazzi is once again destroying them. Not helping. Another thing not helping is that Sean has a new bestie and his name is Charles Bikowski

and he's hanging around the house just being absolutely wasted hammered pants all the time. MC hammered pants. Would you be? one of the most like notorious drunks I mean obviously iconic legend Also like what is Sean not getting wasted With Charles Bukowski

No one ever says that part but it's like hello like I would assume you're not gonna let Charles Buccauci drink alone Yeah anyways it's really it's not the vibe But Madonna is busy So she has other things to focus on Primarily her next movie with James Foley Who's That Girl? Who's that girl?

Okay I just learned it was originally called Slammer Slamma. Slamma. She plays Nikki Fenn, a young woman accused of murder. She did not commit. And she's released on parole. She sets out to clear her name. She sets out to clear her name.

Alongside Loudon Trot. What is it? What does she say his last name is when they're in the hospital? Loud and Clear. Loud and Clear. Oh, Loud and Clear. Mr. Clear. I'm played by Griffin Dunn, which I'm going to, I'm sorry.

I just have to say because I'm kind of obsessed with Griffin Dunn because I love after hours. And they just feel like we don't have this kind of. of actor anymore. Yeah, he's kind of like a sexy, like, not well accustomed to like late nights, you know? Yeah, but not like a Jacob Alluredy. Like, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong. He's also sort of like an indie leading man, isn't he? Yeah. Indy. I mean, after hours was Scorsesey. I know, I know, but there's something very indie about after hours to me too. That's true. And I like After Hours. I do too. I like Griffin Dunn, Son of Dominic Don. Son of Dominic. Anyways, it's great. It's not great.

I love it. I love it. Okay. Oh, you said we weren't going to fight, but we have something to fight about. Anyways, this is not out yet. So the reason the movie became called Who's That Girl is because she had the song, and she couldn't rhyme anything with Slammer. That's what I read. And so she's like, we're changing it to Who's That Girl and you're changing the movie name.

And he did. And then it named the tour. Well, Slamer would have been a horrible name for this movie. I mean, who's that girl? The name, it's a great name. It's a great name. Who's that girl World Tour in 1987? Shabadoo, a 32-year-old choreographer.

Actually, his name is Alfred Kinyonis. He was in the movie Bracon. Oh, you better fucking believe it. I saw Braykin in the movie theater in 1984. Did you? Yeah, and then Bracken to Electric Boogaloo? Fuck, yeah. So he's major.

Angel Ferrara from L.A. is a dancer that dances with her. and then a 13-year-old dancer named Chris Finch because he plays the Open Your Heart character. Donna DeLory is now in the mix. She's 22, and then also Nikki Harris, 24. That's incredible. Donna and Nikki. Donna and Nikki.

She sang with Whitney Houston. They're going to be with her for several decades. There's also Deborah Parsons. This is a third singer. Christopher comes back as dresser. Debbie Mazar is doing makeup. Marlene Stewart does wardrobe. And also her little brother Mario

was hired to do props and ambiance. That's very nice. Here are the songs. Open Your Heart. Lucky Star, True Blue. Poppin don't preach. Dress you up. Material girl like a virgin.

Where's the party? Live to tell. Into the groove. Lais Laisle Bonita, who's that girl and holiday. I'm going to say it all to wall bingers. It's really good. Know the gambler here, you know?

No the gambler. It's all. Hold on. I'm sorry. What? The look of love is in there. Is it? Yes.

Did I miss it? Yeah. It's on there. I mean, I just watched Madonna Chavitalia. I believe you. You know what really struck me with Madonna Chalotalia? And I say this with like the utmost respect of my heart to Sterling Stewart, but it's just so insane to me that you can watch the

the blonde ambition tour. Yeah. And it could be today. Yeah. And it doesn't look dated. Like, it looks so modern and cool and perfect. All the people, like, we were watching Truthor Day last night with my friend, Brianna, we were like, that guy looks like he'd be in Bushwick right now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Like at the cool bar or whatever. Chow would tell you? It's the most 80s thing on her. She's absolutely wearing a gold lame blaser. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's like some show where you're like, what is this?

It says at the end, costumes by Marlene Stewart. I will also say that I love Chowatelia. I love, first of all, I just want to say, I want to make a plug for chair dancing. Madonna does chair dancing. Chair dancing is like a thing of the 80s. It's so amazing when you're dancing and driving on a chair. She does it in human nature too. But I just mean like, you know, it's happening.

Totally. Like Janet Jackson's doing it. Madonna's doing it. Open your heart video obviously has it. Open your heart video has it. And then, oh my God, Madonna, chair dancing at the beginning of the Who's That Girl tour, with the, like, just basking in the energy of the adoring giant crowd screaming for her. It's just really amazing.

It's just pop heaven. It's wonderful. But you're right. It's also sort of dated. Yeah, it's super cute. I love how she looks. I love her leather jacket over the cute little, like, fauncey dress. Yeah, yeah.

I love it. She uses the Madison Square Garden date. of this tour to raise money for Amfar for AIDS, $400,000, and then dedicates Live to Tell to Martin. Beautiful. But here's the most interesting thing to me about that. She distributes a brochure at this tour that describes how AIDS is spread

and how it can be prevented with a handwritten note that says, right now there's no cure for AIDS, but there is a way to stop it from spreading. Don't let fear keep you from knowing the facts. Read this booklet, then give it to your best friend. It just might save his or her life. it might save your own. This is a year before the United States government

creates a brochure about AIDS and save sex. Madonna did it first, babe. Incredible. It's just so cool. Rave reviews, babe. J.D. Constantine of the Baltimore Sunset. I've seen the Springsteen Stadium tour. I've seen Dylan the Grateful Dead,

and I was at LiveAid. Out of all those shows, Madonna is the only one I want to see again. You need a larger-than-life show if you want to come off in a stadium, and Madonna does. She's not that large physically, your attention. There's an energy

about Madonna and Who's That Girl Tour that is so unbelievable. Like she is explosive. She is infectious. She is like she's truly larger than life. It's very remarkable. She looks so cool too. It's that short

bleached hair I think is really, anyways. Okay. In the midst of the tour, Who's That Girl film came out that I love, but it flopped. So, I guess I was wrong. Meanwhile, Sean is in jail. I don't remember why. It was another one of the paparazzi altercations. It was like, yeah, it was, it was a paparazzi what got on his, the set of his new movie in L.A., and he beat him up or something. Yes. He's in jail for a while,

like several months, right? Right. It says here that he's in jail with Richard R. That's right. Is that true? That's true. Yeah, and Richard Mirrors really, like, wanted to, like, like, wrote him a note. Wow. And Sean Penn, like, where I guess wrote him a note back and was like, I find everyone interesting except I found the exception. I want nothing to do. with you. Yeah, I mean, that's the right move. And he asked for his autograph and Sean was like, no, thank you. All right, should we talk about who's that girl's soundtrack? Yeah, I'd love to. To bring it home. Yeah, I'd love to. This is credited as a Madonna album, although it's only four of her songs because it is kind of a traditional soundtrack. Do you mind if a white girl speaks a little

more Español? No. Who's that girl? I love this song. I do too, babe. It's a fucking banger. Are you kidding? I love this song. Nah, nah, nah. Causing a commotion. I've got the moves, baby. You got the motion. If we got together, we'd be causing a commotion.

Okay, I said this with the chat earlier, but I am a little bit dead about why I'm in the Madonna Reddit, R-Dash Madonna, and why someone, three smooth years ago. That would have been 2023. This came out in 1987, came on to Reddit, angry as hell one day, and was like, what's her problem with causing a commotion? Or this person? This person.

Oh, I'm like that. I'm part of this. I'm mad as fucking hell and I'm not going to take it anymore. I've actually complained. I've been on, I've been, I've responded to, to, to this kind of shenanigans. I don't mind that it's not on a Macca collection. We're 39 years out from this. I just want you to know.

I understand, but I'm mad as I'm not going to take it anymore. Okay, okay. It's okay. It's not on a Macaahole collection. Many songs aren't and a Maca Collection is perfect. You'll get to that. In next episode. Next episode.

Yeah. It's really great. And it's fine that it's not on the celebration tour. It's just, she took it out of the 30 number one hits and added something like Jimmy Jimmy. I could be mistaken, but I don't think I am mistaken. And you know what? I didn't like that, Madonna. I was just upset about that.

As a big fan, I just love it. Do you feel like it's... It's my only complaint. No, you also said, who's that girl isn't that good in the movie, and I'm going to remind you that you're wrong. Okay. She's very charismatic in it. The story is fun. No, it's pretty good.

There's a panther. Oh, yeah. There's a panther with a cardiac necklace on. Oh, my, are you kidding? Fucking fabulous. The way they desecrate the fucking Rolls Royce by the end is so fucking cool. They're rolling around town and a hoopty covered in graffiti that used to be a Rolls Royce. And it's a Warner Brothers movie and they have this, which I've always loved.

The opening credits, which you can see on YouTube are just so great. The cartoon Madonna? The cartoon Madonna? That's what I'm talking about. It's so wonderful. I've always been inspired by the cartoon Madonna. I'm sorry. This is,

people need to reassess. We used to have fun in this country. Yeah, yeah. I do, I do not know if I'd ever seen who's that girl before a few days ago because I feel like I was swayed by the bad press and didn't see it. You were poisoned. I don't feel like I insisted on going to see it because of all the bad reviews and I was reading reviews, you know?

Yeah. At 11 years old? Definitely. You were checking variety. You were like, I have like, Dad, open up the Hollywood reporter. I need to see what they said.

I definitely had a people magazine subscription, so I feel like I got a lot of news from that. I know, at 11 years old. How else am I supposed to be, like, part of culture? You were meant to be in magazines in the beginning. Okay, you sang the look of love a little bit earlier. You know what? I've never cared about it, but somehow in 2026, I've been fucking with it. It's really wonderful.

And I feel this song could have, it almost feels like a lost ray of light track almost. Like, it's that kind of ahead of its time. I love it. Just bear with me. Can't stop. Forgetable. Sorry. I don't know if I've ever heard it before. Yeah, I don't know. Sorry. Maybe you have and you forgot it because it's forgettable. And then some other great songs on here. There's a Scrutti-Politi song.

Street-Politi is going to play into later Madonna music, but I won't spoil that. I just want to say that on the note of my People magazine subscription, I can remember exactly where I was in the week of December 14th. I see here where I get the mail and I get the People magazine with Diary of a Mad Mad Marriage on the cover. I remember the moment. I remember the feeling I felt about Diary of a Mademmage. I sent it to the Madonna Splian. Yeah, you did. I love it.

It's just so powerful. I think that's a great place for us to end. So we'll wrap it up right here. Champagne gets out of jail in September after whose that girl comes out. The marriage is pretty bad. in late November, Liz Rosenberg issues a statement saying that she has called off the marriage. They're getting divorced. McDonald's lawyer's file papers December 4th.

Diary of a Mad Marriage comes out, December 14th. Oh, shit. But then on December 18th, it's announced that actually she's withdrawn her petition and they're going to stay together. Yassi, thank you so much for allowing me to do the first 29 years of Madonna's life. Thank you so much, Mel. This has been a real pleasure. You are a wonderful guest and a great, just a stand-up man. You're an officer and also a gentleman.

And thank you for going on this journey with me. Come back next week. We're going to start off with going into 1988. We're going to talk about you can dance and we're going to talk about the next several Madonna albums. So please don't miss it. If you liked what you heard today, subscribe for more episodes of Bansplain. Our guest today was Mel Ottenberg.

This episode was produced by Rob Sunderman and edited by age. and Bridges with help from Justin Sales. Video production by Kevin Corrigan. Executive producers for Vansplaine are Gina Dalvak and me, Yossi-Sallick. Our gorgeous and catchy theme song was composed and performed by Bethany Cocentino and Jennifer Claven, and graciously recorded by Carlos Velgarza in Los Angeles, California. Special thanks to our producer emeritus, producer Dylan, aka Dylan Tupper Rupert. And also Sean Fennessey, Sarah Nattoff, and my new best friend, Salsias.

Come back every Thursday for a new episode of Vansplaine on Spotify or wherever you. listen to podcasts. I think we might make it to who's that girl. How are you feeling? You're going to pass out? It's 9 p.m. I will do it.

I've got the stamina of Madonna tonight. My work ethic is insane.