Bandsplain - Madonna: Part 4 With Caryn Ganz

Episode Date: May 28, 2026

Yasi is joined by journalist and critic Caryn Ganz as the Madonna series enters the modern era. They discuss the glittering revival of 'Confessions on a Dance Floor,' the superstar collaborations and pop maximalism of 'Hard Candy,' the spectacle and chaos of 'MDNA,' the leaks, vulnerability, and often misunderstood ambition of 'Rebel Heart,' and the globetrotting experimentation of 'Madame X.' Plus: The Super Bowl, the ageism, the collaborators, and the globe-spanning Celebration Tour that celebrated 40 years of Madonna, along with what they feel is coming next as 'Confessions 2' looms on the horizon. Episode PlaylistListen to the Madonna: Part 4 playlist here. CREDITS:Host: Yasi Salek @yasisalekGuests: Caryn Ganz @mehpatrolProducer: Rob SundermannEditor: Adrian BridgesAdditional Production Supervision: Justin SaylesTheme Song: Bethany Cosentino Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's with this band anyway? I don't get it. Can you please explain? Wait, like, Bansplain? Hello and welcome to Bandsplain. I am your host, Yossi Saling. This is a show where I invite an expert guest on to help me explain the cult band or iconic artist. Today's episode is part four of four about, again, maybe the most iconic artist of all time, Madonna.

You guys, my guest today is a lot of the best. the one, the only, Karen Gans, the former pop music editor of the New York Times, their loss. On her very first day of freedom, she's joining us. I basically, I quit my job to become a full-time Madonnaologist with you, Yassie. Karen was like, I'm not going on vacation. I'm going straight to my new job as Madonna scholar on the bandplain podcast. And I so, I so appreciate it. Thank you. How are you feeling? I feel good. This is like exactly where I would want to be right now. It's actually, it's just like it's all happening. Yeah, I do find that this happens to me while I research almost any subject,

but I really start to map myself onto their trajectory. And I'm like, me too, ma'am. I too took the road less traveled by, you know. Got to get ready to jump. Got to get ready to jump, exactly. Okay, before we get into part four, unfortunately the last part, for now, I just want to once again thank all of the resources that I use to research these episodes. Today in Madonna history, Madonnapedia, Madonna Underground, Madonna Tribe, the Inside of the Groove podcast, the Encyclopedia Medanica, the 2023, Mary Gabriel, Madonna biography, countless Instagram accounts, Webo Girl, Madonna Burnett, all of them.

Thank you for all of your tireless work. You've helped me. That's all. All right, you guys, well, in episode three, we left off. with the Reinvention Tour, which, based on Billboard Statistics, was the highest grossing tour of 2004, earning a cool $125 million. Did you go to that tour? I did. So we're starting with the part of the Madonna Journey where I've been, like, covering her this whole time and attending. So I have a live experience for everything.

I will say, Reinvention Tour, not my favorite. Interesting. Go on. Well, it's coming off the Round World, which I think, like, really reset the bar for her super high. Yeah. So it was just a little bit of a low. It's so interesting because, like, you talk to different people, and there's so many opinions, right? I've talked to some people who thought Drowned World was like, that wasn't their favorite.

Like, they were off put by it. And I love Drown World. Again, I did not attend any of these, as you guys famously know, but I haven't watched them all on my television. And I'm like, this one was like, I guess, like, I can see how maybe given the, like, tense landscape. of cops in our midst that some of it maybe hasn't aged a while. But I think it's beautiful and brilliant. Drown World was pre-9-11. I know.

And I think I saw it in July or August, 2001. I did not have a care in the world. I was the happiest person on earth with my first full arena-Madonna show. And I was just like, life is amazing. And a couple of months later, I was like, oh, no. Life is terrible. Yeah. Yeah.

And then she made a record kind of about it. And then we got the reinvention tour. So, yeah, it tells the story. You guys, not a peek behind the curtain, but I think in my state of psychosis that I've been in, me podcasting right now is Madonna Crown of Thorns coming down off the cross at the confessions tort. Normal. I feel persecuted by my own behavior. All right. So we're kicking off at 2004. Sometime after the reinvention tour, there's kind of a major shakeup in Madonna's, you know, world of team where her, manager, Koresh Henry, is let go. Reportedly, allegedly, this was due to an affair that she

allegedly reportedly had with one of Madonna's security guards, and they both had partners, and allegedly reportedly Madonna felt that that violated the Kabbalah teachings of faithfulness. I don't know. It wasn't there. I'm just alleging and reporting. And then, okay, this is where I'm going to need to help piecing it together, because this is when I was like full a beautiful mind, full red string murder board, like math. Madonna starts working on two musicals around this time. I'm actually not that up on the musical. So you're not going to need me for this.

I absolutely did watch a fan-made video that's like an hour long by a gay man with a Lisp who traveled around the world to tell us about this background story. I will be learning along with the audience on this one. And I trust him. And I did a little fact-checking with Courtney Love, which is interesting, and you'll see why. Okay. So one of the musicals was a – they're both meant to be films, so musicals, not like stage musicals. One was ten and a little bit called Hello Suckers, and the other was one with Luke Bison, the director who had previously directed her video for Love Profusion.

Great video, great stuff. So Hello Sucker centered on the life of this 1920s prohibition era, speakeasy. Queen named Texas Gweenan, I think is how you say it? She was like good friends with May West. Okay. Apparently from the digging I did, Martin Scorsese found like some footage of this woman from back in the day and was like,

oh, we need to make a film about her. So he was originally tied on as the executive producer. There was a book by Louise Berliner about her life. Okay. And so there was already a thing that was going, Bonnie Bruckheimer and Bet Midler apparently had developed this story. and Courtney Love was tied to it to star, which makes so much sense that she would have been amazing.

Also, interestingly, just another little layer. There was a film from 1945 called Incendiary Blonde, directed by George Marshall, starring Betty Hutton, who Madonna loved, where she played Texas Queen and Gannon. I'm sorry, I don't know how to pronounce her last name. Incidentally, Betty Hutton also performed a song called Papa Don't Preach to Me in the 1947 film, The Perils of Pauline, which I didn't know when we were doing episode one, but I'm telling you now.

You've really, you've gone down the cable. I went down, oh, man, beyond. The M-hole? I live there now. Back to this, Hello Suckers. So I don't know what happened with the original construction of the, you know, Bonnie and Brunk, I remember Bett Miller, Courtney Love situation, but it kind of fell apart. And then Maverick films acquired the rights in 2001.

But then this also fell apart, I think partially due to Madonna selling her stake in Maverick in 2004. But she had started working on some songs for it. Secondly, the Luke Basin musical, this is actually where it gets kind of really interesting. This was apparently Madonna's idea, and the concept was that she would portray a woman on her deathbed, looking back on the life, she thought she had lived, but twist. She had very bad dementia and was senile and therefore did not actually experience any of the memories she was speaking of. That would have been interesting. And it was apparently based on candy darling.

Really? It would have been a candy darling. This is pretty cool. Yeah, pretty cool. Because I think she had seen the Peter Hoosier photo Candy Darling on her deathbed. And anyways, she had gotten with Luke Besant, there was going to be a sci-fi element because she's like thinking back to these unlived times. There was going to be a disco scene that was kind of like tying into fifth element, Luke Besant. So it's very cool, right?

And so she had also started working on music for that while Luke Besson was like hard at work writing the script. This is classic Madonna multitasking here. Exactly. I bring it all up because she got with Mirways, Patrick Leonard, and Stewart Price to write the music. And it was going to be from all these different eras, 20s, big band, 40s, stuff, 60s, folk music punk, and, of course, disco. And she went to Stewart to work on the disco music for this film, and that led to Hung Up. Hung Up was actually originally written to be part of this, from what I understand, sci-fi musical about Candy Darling's Life.

So, yeah, is that not crazy? That is crazy. I didn't know that. Even though I did scan through your document. I didn't retain this. This is all, like, I don't have proof of any of this. I mean, there are, like, a bunch of corroborations if you can corroborate via, like, just various sites saying it. I definitely have proof that the hello suckers was real because I spoke to Courtney Love about it.

It makes a lot of sense, actually. She had come to Stewart because I guess she was imagining this disco scene and she was like, I want something that sounds like Abba on acid. And he was like – I mean, that is kind of what they did. Yeah, well, apparently he was like, funny you should say that. Because about six months prior – and again, I don't have proof of any of this. This is just like stuff I piece together from the Internet.

if it's not real, Stuart Price, call me. Call me anyway, honestly, babe. I'm available for calls. Apparently, he had to. Also, Karen. So, six months prior to this situation happening, he had been DJing Liverpool. And I guess, like, at, like, 5 a.m. when he was done, he was listening to the radio, and he heard, give me, give me a man after midnight.

And he was like, you know what, this song fucks? This is my editorializing. I don't know what he said. So he went home and quickly cut a sample of the piano bit to put back into his DJ set the next week and the people on the dance floor obviously went nuts for it. And so he was just like DJing that for a while and had fun with them but then forgot about it. And then when she was like, do you have anything that sounds like Abon Acid? He was like, actually right here I have something that sounds like Abel on Acid.

And then they made that song in three days. I'll just say I went to the Abba musical. I had never seen it. Mama Mia. Mama Mia. Yeah. I finally saw Mama Mia. And I was just like waiting for Gimme, Gimme, Gimme.

And I was just like, this is one of the best pop songs ever. I've never seen Mamma Mia. Is it? Give me in there? Oh, it is? Is it? It is? It is. Well, it's like all the hits.

Okay. That makes sense. It is one of the best songs ever. It is. Abba kind of snapped back then. Love Abba. Yeah, really good. Just like to circle around about this musical about Candy Darling, she ended up apparently

getting a 300-page script from Luke Bisson and she, I guess, allegedly reportedly did not like it. So that sort of died. But now they had hung up. And I think there's a couple other songs on confessions that. are rooted in this Candy Darling sci-fi musical. That's wild. So if that's not real, I don't want to know. For the purposes of this conversation, it's real.

Yeah. It makes sense. But who knows? So Madonna had been, also kind of explains to me a little bit, even though I think Madonna loves to do this, why she was working with Stewart in his like two room flat and made a veil instead of like, oh, we're making an album, let's go to the studio.

You know, and that kind of checks out too. I'll say it for the record. All the best Madonna music seems to come from me and my lad in a room together. I don't want to skip ahead too far. Yeah. But the one time I interviewed her was for Rebel Heart, which we will get to. Yeah. And she said that her favorite way to make a record is just with one producer.

And I think it shows. It's like all she needs is one producer and a coffee and a dream, babe. Like one Patrick Leonard and a dream. One surer price in a dream. It just happens to line up that Warner Brothers is like TikTok, TikTok. We needed a fucking album, babe. And she was like, I don't want to write an album.

But this just happened. She was like, okay, well, I guess we could like pull this thread. I don't want to go into it too much, but she talked a bit about choosing Stuart Price ultimately over Mirway. I mean, there's some Mirway songs on confessions. And she said that, we met Mirway. John Paul Sartre comes to mind. He's very intellectual, very analytical, very cerebral, very. very intellectual, very philosophical. You have to be in the mood for it. I didn't want to

overthink things too much. I don't want to be complicated right now. That's kind of going back to like American Life, right, which is a very like political record. And a little bit overthought. Yeah. I love tortured. I'm an American Life truther. I love it. I love like 60%. I think it's great. But I think she was unfairly maligned once again for the 80th time on that one. American Life was so ahead of its time. But, you know, I get it. She was probably like, can we just have some fun? Yes.

We've been in a dark place. Yeah, there was like a whole conversation where they're like, so it's like just fuck art, let's dance. And she's like, it's fuck everything, let's dance. That's how we get into. Do you know much about Stuart Price in his prior life? Not a ton. So I feel like we didn't really do it on the last episode where Stewart Price comes into the story. but he had like had his own band called Zoot Woman and produced a bunch of music under these like various personas.

I know Jacques LeCantte-Lacant Le Rhythm Digital, paperface his name with the guitar, thin white duke. And he's quite young still here, but he had already done a bunch, including I guess he had a song called Born This Way. Did you know about this? I did not. Which sampled controversy. Carl Bean's disco anthem that's like, I'm happy. carefree, I'm gay. It's a little...

Do what you will with that information, normal Madonna fans. We'll come back to that. We'll come back to that. In 2005, she turns 47. On her birthday, her husband, at the time, Guy Ritchie organizes for her a horse riding party. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. And one of the horses was a polo horse, a thoroughbred. And her friends were like, babe, you've got to try this horse. He's so lovely. He's like a deer bit. Just get on this horse and she was like, great. He was not like a deer.

He threw her right off. And she broke multiple bones. I remember hearing about this and being devastated. I was like, what will happen to Madonna? What will happen to Madonna? Yeah. But what happened to Madonna is whatever happened, what always happens to Madonna. She came back stronger.

Totally. Like a broken bone often does. Well, I think it's, I mean, she broke up her collarbone. Like, it was pretty intense. Yeah. But it's worth saying, and this is one of my favorite aspects of Madonna, is Madonna is like a professional athlete. Like she is on a level of a professional athlete. Her body is a temple.

She's so strong. She's so flexible. She's been doing professional dance aside from running, weightlifting, yoga to the max. Like she is, her body is so, so strong that I think a normal person would not have recovered from this the way she did where she's just like, you know, one smooth year later, but that was me dancing for those who aren't on audio only. And

but she had to slow down. She did. Are we going to talk about the David Letterman appearance when she came back? No, I didn't write about it. You tell me about it. Oh, so she has a famously fraught, you know, very fun relationship with Letterman. I don't know if you talked about it. We talked about her saying fuck 48 times

or whatever on that. Yeah, when he made fun of her hair and he was like, but he wearing a swim cap. Absolutely epic back and forth. I love them sparring, but to show her love, because he truly did love and appreciate her. He had her on as one of her first appearances back, and she wrote a horse down like Broadway or wherever the studio was in a show of strength. Amazing. Amazing. And then of course, she made horses an opening theme of this tour. Which I love. We will get there. Yeah, we'll get there. Oh, my God. My arm hair is standing. I love it. She was like, I still love horses. Horses can't get me down.

Also very funny. When she was in the hospital, I read this that apparently, allegedly, reportedly, Guy Ritchie was in the room, but she screamed at him so much for morphine that he left. I could see that. Be a man. Yeah. You stay. No, I'm going to get into that. Next month, Guy Ritchie puts out his new film, Revolver, with Jason Statham.

I don't know her. No. It was a flop, apparently. I don't think of him came out in America. One critic said, after Revolver swept away now looks like Citizen Kane. It's rough. That's really just twisting the knife. It's hard.

Yeah. Madonna biographer Lucy O'Brien quoted one of her friends, Anon, please, as saying deep down he blames her for his career nosedive. Because she got injured? Maybe because it's swept away. Oh, okay. I mean, I don't know. There's no further... Okay, that would make a little bit more sense.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, I mean, you were the director. Yeah. I saw that movie. She can be excellent on film. Don't blame her. You could have directed. She looked hot.

Yeah. She did her job. Okay. All of this is kind of the background into which Confessions on a Dance Floor is released into the world on November 9th, 2005. My first question is a top line question for you, Karen. Yeah. Do you feel that Confessions on a Dance Floor felt as lauded and appreciated at the time of its release as it does now where it's obviously considered one of her great albums? I think it became canon later.

Right. But it was definitely well received. Yeah. But it was not necessarily well received by me. I reviewed this album, and I did not love it. Karen, prison. I know. This is one of my biggest regrets.

I've said this before, but now I will say it one more time. Back then, when they worried about albums leaking, they would make you come to an office and listen to it once. It's not possible to it. It's not. I listen to it once. I will say Liz Rosenberg. I don't know how much you've talked about Liz Rosenberg. Quite a bit.

Absolute icon. Yeah, what a lot of them. She was dancing to Sari in the room while I was listening to it. A little distracting, I have to say, because I love her so much. I was like, holy crap. I just, like, I did not fully get it. I was like, okay, this is a corrective to American life, right? She's going back to the thing that she knows she has, the dance floor.

She has gay men. She has this. She has that. I mean, I thought it was fine. Yeah. But I did not fully get it until after it came out. And then I started experiencing it because I went to the Roxy. We'll get there.

Right. But I was there for one of her appearances. And I was like, oh, now I understand. This is like a thing. This is like one of, I mean, I don't have to tell you. Yeah. Because you're the, you have lived this and I have only observed it. But, like, one of the great.

greatest tragedies of music writing, which is why it's largely dead, is because they're like, oh, the internet's here. You need to write your review in six and a half minutes. Oh, you can't even listen to the whole album, actually. You have to put it out before you listen to the whole album. And then you get these like unhinged reviews, which is not even their fault. Because it takes me like weeks for some album. I mean, some hit you right away, sure. No, this has definitely been a major drawback. Also, just, I don't know how much you've discussed this, but Madonna's entire career arc has traced, like the entire rise and fall of music journalism and artist's relationship to the press. She gave so many interviews in the early days. Just think about how few

interviews of Beyonce, for example, gives now, right? Madonna talked to everyone all the time. And thank God. She had that giant aperture interview. She was talking to Time magazine. She was talking to local papers. She was on TV. All that. She just talked. So you had all this insight into what she was thinking. And she had a lot, you know, obviously there was a lot of thought behind it. Super interesting. But yes, yes, also with the review cycle. You can go through this. But she's had a lot of woes with the Internet. A lot of woes starting around American Life and footwork.

Who amongst us has not had a lot of woes around the Internet? It's true. But anyway, I do think it was seen as very solid, but I don't think it became like true canon until a little bit later. Which I do think has happened with quite a few of her songs and albums. It's funny. It just reminds me of like when we did in Part 3, Ray of Light, famously Rob Sheffield gave it a bad review. and then the next, like, day or two came back and was like, I'm so sorry, I'm just kidding. I didn't get it.

Was that his famous, she gets knocked up and she gets up again, lead? Shamba Wamba quoting? I do love you, Rob. But I thought, I doffed my cap to that because I was like, it takes a strong person to, like, admit they were wrong and come back and republish. I recently came around on Mayhem. I've heard a lot about it on the Internet. It happens. Sometimes we make mistakes.

It happens. Okay. So it did hit number one on Billboard. So, you know, obviously it was... She's still Madonna. Platinum, yeah. Also, 2005 is like... This is one of my areas of interest,

not because I like it, because as you guys know famously, I think the decade of the 2000s is very ugly and disgusting and terrible. But because it's the no-man's land of people aren't totally fully buying cities. They are and they aren't. Yeah.

They are downloading songs for 99 cents off of the iTunes. store. There is not proper streaming yet. Napster has come and kind of gone, but there's like lime wire and all these kind of like freaky will give you a disease to your computer's like ripping sites. So like it's a very strange time for trying to understand charting. Right? No, I agree with you. Yeah. This came up only once and I don't know if it was a complete like misunderstanding or someone was just lying, but I felt like I would ask you if you had any information on it. Someone said that this album was meant to be made with the Pet Shop Boys at one point.

I also saw one other thing that said that she had worked with Martin Gore from Depeche Mode. These were the things that I was not able to find more information about. I don't know a lot about that, but I know that she had like a great appreciation for Pet Shop Boys. And obviously there is not sampling per se, but there is like a sort of homage. I was going to use that word. Yeah. To some synthy. I just liked my mind went to a nice place where I was like, what would a pet shop quiz Madonna album sound like?

There's still time. There's still time, babe. Okay, Madonna said, even though I didn't know I wanted to make a record, I just thought this is what I would want to do with my free time at the moment. She did not mention that there was a lupus-a-sand-sci-can-do darling musical, and that's fine. I was working with other people as well. I worked with Mirways, but not eventually in the same capacity I had before because I wanted to do this quickly. He's great, but there's always the angst of collaborating with somebody. He's very intellectual, cerebral, and I wanted an easy time.

That's not to be a little Stewart, but he's so relaxed and easy to work with, and I really needed that. It came out of not trying too hard. I never planned to make my whole record with him, honestly. It was just going to be a few tracks. And then we... I liked the little details. I don't think I wrote them in Doc, but, like... Again, I think Stuart Price is, like, what, 26 or something?

Yeah, yeah. And she would come to his house, and he'd be, like, just woke up, like, in his socks. And she'd be like, do you have food here? And then she would, like, send for someone to bring... food from her like palatial estate or whatever and like feed him and then they would like work all night. She is mother. She's mother. Yeah. So this whole time, as you mentioned earlier, Madonna, the ultimate multitasker is also or has just come off of or it's a bit overlapping with editing, I'm going to tell you a secret. That's sort of a lesser known tour document. For the tour that I in love.

So yeah. Yes. It's kind of a great tour documentary. If, It's no truth or dare. Yeah. Nothing is ever going to be truth or dare. But it's quite a feast for the senses, and it's a lot of insight into what's going on with Madonna at that time. Yes. And Guy Ritchie's in it. Which is a better for worse.

A source of stress. Yes. It's a fuck-ass hat. What is this hat? He's English. I will defend the hat. But yes, he's English. I don't know why I came away from this with just like, that man to me dead on site.

Love and respect. I say that with love and respect. Allegedly. Allegedly. Allegedly. Okay. So, but I think it was very stressful because she had done 350 hours of filming for this. The narrative is, it's interesting, right?

It's like she's in such a different place in her career. 2005, 44? No. American Life, she was 45. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Sorry, I was doing math on the fly. 47.

So, you know, we're coming towards 50. people are dying, I know, same. People are dying to point that out at every fucking left, right. They've been pointing out since she was 30, though. I think I read a quote in episode two where someone like the Guardian was like, 35, she's better fucking think about packing it up. And you're like, are you fucked? And then you remember, and I don't want you guys to remember,

that without Madonna ignoring people saying you're 35 pack it up, We have Taylor Swift's, what, 37 now? Yeah, I think. I don't know. I just said off of it. She's definitely at least 35, I think. Yes. We, that's not even, no one looks at Taylor Swift and says you're too old to this.

It wouldn't even cross one person's mind. And that's because of Madonna. Because she kept going when people were like questioning her age. And so she's not going to stop now. But I'm just saying it's, it's there in the ether. Yep. Talk to me about the sound and the theme of this album. It's like falling.

in love, falling out of love, loving New York. Laving, Candy Darling. Controversial. That's a song. That is a song that they said is from, which makes a lot of sense. Really? Okay, that does make sense. Because I mean. Warhol. Yeah. Candy Darling, New York. And, you know, just like the lesson

she's learned in life and during her career and reflecting on that and her relationship to fame. So it's a very classic Madonna-themed album. But, you know, in the songs and also as reflecting the music, it's like, Madonna's always at her best when she's singing about the dance floor. Or, like, being on the dance floor.

the thing. This is like, this is the place of her true origin. Yeah, it's true. I think, I agree. I think Madonna's at her best when she's singing about truth, like about her truth, you know, without obscuring it or without, because there are later songs where it's kind of, in my opinion, feels like there was like a letdown to like a previous vulnerability. And so now it's like, This, it's just vibes. Yeah. And that's fine. But I think she's such an evocative singer.

She's such an open book when she wants to be. And that's so easy to connect with for a fan like me. And then when she's kind of not doing that, I find those songs harder for me to relate to. That totally makes sense. I feel like this is a very open-hearted record. There's not a song in here where I'm like, I can't find a way into this lyrically. Yeah. I can crawl inside all of them.

Totally. Yeah. There's, like, a sense of escapism to me in this record, which, like, everyone, I think, can relate to. Yeah. And also, like, not to speculate. But I'm like, I mean, you're living in London, but you're writing an ode to how much you love New York. You know, these are, it's like. Cracks on the foundation.

And later, she will say words, like, I felt trapped. Yeah. I was in prison or whatever. And you're like, okay, so putting two and two together. In that vein, David Brown and Entertainment Weekly from his review said this one line, which I really thought was interesting. He said, Madonna without the marriage, the children, the British estate, such as the fantasy world conjured up in confessions on the dance. I mean, I don't think she was like wishing that she didn't have kids. No, but that's, I mean, the dance lore represents all this carefree, escape, freedom, no cares.

You know, every dance song is like, just dance around your cares. You got no worries. You know, just go dance. You know, Jesse Ware, who makes awesome disco album, is always like, yeah, I've got kids and a husband, but I'm dreaming up like. life is a gay man just twirling around under a disco ball and dreaming the dream. It's like that is the dream. And gay men, you live the dream. Well, they also have children and-

they do. They do. And responsibilities and pay taxes. All of it, babe. We all need a little escape. It's true. Richard Cromlin in the L.A. Times, who actually usually really love, said, Confessions has a brady owed to New York City, tales of forbidden love, and futuristic

love, empowerment anthems, and an ethno-trans diversion into cabala-centric interspection. We'll get to that. I like that song. I'm sorry. I don't care what anyone says. That's a good song. But it's actually pretty short on confessions. When she does go into self-serious mode, the album loses its charm. I don't need her to confess. I think she is confessing. I mean, she is in some ways, but like she's, you know, she's naked all the time. She's confessed a lot, babe. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So she promoted this. Were you there by any chance? She promoted this album at Miss Shapes. Shout out Miss Shapes at Luke and Leroy's. I skipped Miss Shapes because I went to the Roxy. Okay, okay. So you have to choose one. How was the Roxy? Oh my God. It was insane. My girlfriend at the time and all of their friends, they were at the Roxy every Saturday anyway. And it was like Madonna's going to be at the rocks. It was just like everyone's head was exploding. I think I got there at like 1.45 a.m. and she came out at 2. And Fernando from Warner Brothers, shout out Fernando, went out for cigarette, missed the entire thing. Came back in. I was like. Yeah, it was like 20 minutes. I was like, you miss the entire thing. I don't have any footage from this. I don't know if I didn't take any. Or if I lost it, I might have had a digital camera. But I might have actually been enjoying myself because it was like 2005.

And I was living. It was amazing. She looked so good. This is like a peak Madonna appearance era. We're going to talk about the hung up video, but like absolute peak hotness. She looks so good. Also, just like the fashion of it. Like Patrick's not here, unfortunately, so I have to do my best.

But, you know, this is she's wearing in multiple appearances, press appearances, tour stuff, versions of the same leather bomber jacket. Love it. It's Gucci Resort 2006, designed by Frida Giannini, and these lace-up knee-high Salon boots. And it's just like, perfect. She looks perfect. She does.

Like, I have a thing that's just like Madonna walking. You know what I mean? Like, she's just strutting in a very specific way. And in the hung-up video, she is strutting in that jacket at one point. It's just like, is there anything better than Madonna simply walking? No. Not much. Not much, baby.

I don't know. I can't walk like that. This album broke some records. It charted in 40 countries, which put it in the Guinness Book of World Records for the most charts topped around the world by the same album. Okay. Not bad. I think Hung Up also had the same records, like topped the charts in 41 countries.

Pretty good reviews across the board, you know? Nobody really missed it except for pitchfork, respectfully. 6.2. Get fucked. I'm glad you didn't find my spin review because it's not really on the internet because it was not overwhelmingly positive. Okay. Well, we'll put you next to the Pitchfork.

I'm in, I'm in a confession's jail for that one. Pittsburgh was busy being like Animal Collective is the second coming of God. And Madonna, get out of here. She wins a Grammy. Yes. For the album, but Dan's Electronic. Yeah. I love to put her in a little hole.

She's in a genre category. Yeah. Also, I alluded to this, but I need to talk about it because I want to publicly shame. We're definitely still doing ageism. Oh, I mean, we're always. She's too much. This is from the pitchwork review, which I once again got it completely wrong. 20 years ago, Madonna was a post-modernist's dream.

Her ability to transform herself from song to song and from album to album became a proclamation of self-nullifying empowerment. I don't like that word self-nullifying. I think it's wrong. Giving her the ability to create a stationary persona out of shifting identities. However, by the start of the 1990s, Madonna's transformations appeared more calculated as she aged and fell behind the curve, trying to predict the next dominant style instead of confidently setting it. No. Incorrect.

That is not right. That's not right. With confessions on a dance for her 14th album, Madonna again reinvents herself and appears she's nearly laughed herself. Her latest iteration is a pre-Madonna. Then it makes a little joke for himself, pre-Madonna. Disco vixen, basking in a 70s musical style that she herself, among others, helped to morph and displace in the 80s. Allowing her to accessorize creatively, love that wrap around top. This new persona has the potential to be immensely entertaining.

There's something a little sad about it, too. At 47, Madonna is playing the role of someone 25 years younger, and those retro space leotards and that feathered hair only make her look more mature and matronly, like your friend's mom dressed up embarrassingly for Halloween. I will fucking kill you, reportedly, allegedly. I mean, she's really, it's again, peak hotness. This is a misread. Looking at this, honey, you don't like, if you're not attracted to women, that's okay.

You can just say you're not attracted to women. We don't have to write a 6,000-word pitchfork piece. I feel like pitchfork at that era felt like they had to position themselves against her. Well, you don't have to say she looks old. Well, obviously, I agree, but yes, I can... Matronly? Yeah. Honey, have you seen a matron?

Actually, I don't know what a matron is. Have you seen a matron? I'm like, the women who work in the bathrooms at the Roxy. Also, this makes me want to kill myself. I'm like, I've never looked that good. And so, am I matronly? Okay, let's get into the music. Okay.

The first single was obviously hung up October 17, 2005. Did you know that it was first heard in a TV spot for Motorola's iTunes enhanced rocker mobile phone? I don't even remember. You guys were... I remember the rocker. If you're young, which we have some young audience, I don't think I can express to you that before iPhone was basically the only phone besides, I guess, like some people have an Android. There was a new cell phone every six minutes. You had a...

I had one. I had a trio. I had a sidekick. I had a razor. I had several razors because I kept getting drunk and leaving them in cabs. Right? Like the rocker. There was just nonstop Motorola StarTack.

That was when I think it was so little. And I have all these purses from the 2000s where they have the special pocket. That's that size. And the rocker was, you remember it. I don't remember it. I do remember it. But also this is sort of like people were promoting things for phones. Yeah.

Like people were doing that. Oh, yeah. I mean Madonna's ever been. Ringtones were a thing. Like this was a real era. Ringtones were like a billion dollars. industry. I made that number up, but I think it's right. I actually did have hung up as a ringtone now that I just said that out loud. On your Motorola Star Trek? No, on a Samsung. But I did have it on my Samsung flip phone. Wow. Yeah. It was a different time. Also, I think the first Madonna song ever available to iTunes store. Even though iTunes had been around for two years. She was skeptical.

Well, she said that the money wasn't good enough. She said the deal was not good before that. That's very proto Taylor, who fought for everyone's rights on Spotify. Hello Spotify. Hi, sorry. And Apple Music. Apple Music. It was Apple Music. It was out. Yeah. Don't remove me. You're removed. This podcast is actually just going to be me talking to myself. This was her 36th top 10 hit. So she tied with Elvis Presley. Wow. I mean, this is like a career-making banger. It's so good.

I love this song so much. How could you not? Impossible not. Also, just like the sample. So inventively used. It's like reinvented completely in a new context. If you force yourself, you can hear the original song in it. But like it so naturally fits into the new song. I just like so often with samples, I'm like, this makes no sense why you're jamming this. You're just trying to make an illusion to that song.

It was like, no, I am inventing something new with dance music. Stuart Price is an absolute genius. Also just need to point out, this is only the second time ever. Because Abba is notoriously like, no. No, I recall that she had to ask herself. She had to ask herself. You know what the first sample was? I mean, you know because it's my dog.

But I'll tell you. It's the Fugis. Rumble in the jungle from 1996. They sampled the name of the game, the Abba song. I'm surprised they let that go. The Fugis were very big then, though. Yeah. And, you know, Abba has good taste.

Yep. They were like, these people are cool. Madonna said, we were writing and we were like, okay, we want to make the ultimate pop dance record. We listened to lots of Abba records and lots of Georgia Maroder, which we'll get into also. We kept going through stuff and soaking it all up, and ultimately Abba found its way.

into our psyches. I think they might have had doubts about letting us sample their record. I had to send my emissary to Stockholm with a letter and the record begging them and imploring them and telling them how much I worship their music, telling them it was an homage to them, which is all true. And they had to think about it. Benny and Bjorn, they didn't say yes right away. They never let anyone sample their music.

They could have said, no, thank God they didn't. And I saw an interview with them when they were like, well, we had to hear the song, and the song was amazing. Right. I mean, these are real deal. Yeah. He didn't just sample the piano. also does like a synth version of it.

Like, it's just, it's so cool what Stuart Price did with this song. And then the three layers of vocals, which are like Madonna, Madonna, and then vocoder, which is also Madonna. And I love that it's about impatience, which is like a classic Madonna hallmark. This woman does not like to wait. No. No. How do you think she got this career?

She does not wait. TikTok, tick top. I also like, this is, I mean, she's done it kind of her whole career, but we really get into an era of Madonna referencing back. to herself. And so the first verse references her, one of my favorite Madonna songs, the 1989 song with Prince Love Song.

Time goes by slow slowly for those who wait. Well hung up is incredible. Yeah. So the video directed by Johan Rink, it's kind of a tribute to John Travolta in his various dance films, obviously, most famously, probably Saturday Night Fever. Here's a thing. There's no one on Earth. that I can identify at the level of Madonna, who is a bigger proponent of crumping and parkour.

Mostly parkour. She is the world's leading parkour advocate. Her and Michael Scott from the office, yes. So this video features famed crumper, Moss Prissy. I did dig up, don't worry, a 2005 AOL chat between Anthony Ketus and Madonna in promotion of this album. They used to do that. This was like AOL.com presents an aim chat between Madonna confesses with a K and R.H. Anthony C.P. Here's just a snippet.

Madonna confesses said there's something raw and theatrical, something Shakespearean about crumping. R.H. Anthony Cp. Anthony Kedis. Crumping is a great way to communicate with spirits of love. I don't know what that means. I don't either been. But you know what? there's something Shakespearean about crumping is what my takeaway was from that. Okay, the next song is on the album is actually the third single, Get Together.

There are some like Swedish pop wizards on this album, and they emerge first here. Do you know much about Pierre Ostromen Anders Bage? I don't. They're not the Swedish pop wizards I know the most about. Right. They did. They facken snapped on this shit. Yeah.

So this I thought was very interesting. This song, which is perfect and I love it so much, originally actually featured an interpolation of the baseline from future lovers, which itself is sort of an homage or sample or whatever of I feel love. But because once they were like finalizing the album, they had two songs that had this same sort of baseline. One had to be dropped. And it was obviously not going to be... Now I'm trying to picture this song with that bass line. That's interesting. And so Stuart, so I think, I don't know what happened. All I know is they didn't remix it. Stuart Price remixed it. Okay. And he remixed it with that stardust music sounds better with you baseline sample that he had actually also used on the Drown World Tour when they reimagined Holiday, which itself samples Chaka Khan's faith.

But anyway, so that's what Stewart did with this song. Bless Stewart. I know. I love this. song. So great. I like it with that. I think it's really cool. Yeah, I love that effect of her voice harmonizing with herself all over the place. Obviously, I love Adana and a Nikki, but there is something very special about Madonna, just stacked. The next song is the second single, sorry. I mean, I'm just going to say the same thing. I love every song. Almost every song, actually, hold on. I'm going to say that y'all mind if a white girl speaks some Espanel. Just sweet desolet. Part seven. Well, I'm just saying, this is one of my

greatest theories. Ekebendrovic. It's not a Madonna album. She doesn't speak a little bit of Spanish. Yeah. Yeah, there's a bunch of languages on here. Thank you for asking. French, Spanish, Italian, Dutch, Hebrew, Hindi, Polish, and Japanese.

Although, actually, the Dutch that she uses, I'm sorry, roughly translates to I am sad and is not actually a correct way to say. I'm sorry. Who told her? Who told her that? Some Dutch person. During that same AOL interview with Anthony Kedis, Madonna justified the usage of the other languages by saying everything sounds better in another language.

I would disagree because I don't think things sound better in Dutch. It's a little global tourism-y. No, I think something sound better in some ways. It just depends on the language. Yeah. Dutch, respectfully. You just lost your entire Dutch listenership. All six of you are like out of here.

I don't know. The Australians still listen and I'm quite unfair to them. This baseline was inspired by a can you feel it by the Jackson 5, allegedly reportedly. Can you hear it? Interesting. Yeah. It's a killer baseline. Are you familiar with Stuart Price's 2004 remix of What You Waiting for by Gwen Stefani,

one of the greatest songs of all time? I'm not familiar with the remix. God, do I love that song, though. That's so good. Another TikTok. TikTok. I love that. You see on my running playlist.

It's a really good running song. Anyways, on this song and on that song, he uses the same sort of cracking noise like a baseball hitting a bat. So it's a 244 mark on this song if you guys want to shh ahead. This song has a Pet Shop Boys remix, which is incredibly good. It's incredibly good not just because the Pet Shop Boys remix it because Neil Tenon put himself on it because he said he always wanted to do a duo with Madonna. Okay, that's adorable.

I love that. And the video, the video is fun. I don't remember the video as much. We're in a van. Oh, I do, I do. We're picking up some cool men. She likes to be in a car picking people up. That's just like a definite recurring Madonna video thing.

Madonna as Uber driver. Yeah. Yeah. They have a boombox. They end up at a roller ring. She also loves the boom box. These are, yeah, we're there. And she loves a roller ring.

Okay. The next song is Future Lovers. This is an example of like, Madonna could put out an album and I'll be like, okay. And then I see the show. And I'm like, oh. It's so true. So many songs were transformed for me in this particular era by watching them performed live, where I was like, didn't really grab me when I listened to the album.

And so this is one for you. 100%. Making this the opener of the Confessions Tour when she's in this gigantic disco ball and it claws itself open and she's standing there holding a riding crop. And on the official video she put out with like a cute little evil smile, oh my God, I thought I was going to die. And then they mix it right into Donna Summers I feel love. Like they literally, the mixes for this tour were unbelievably epic. But you know, Madonna always had unique mixes.

for tour because she does not like to repeat herself. She wants to be interesting, interested in her own work. Yeah, she's not doing a greatest hits review. Which is why celebration really was interesting and we will eventually get there. But yeah, no, this song is so killer. Here's a fun one.

This one also, I believe, reportedly allegedly, written for the Candy Darling unmade musical sci-fi. I can actually see that because it's got this like really long spoken word intro where it's like almost like It's theatrical, and then it really has a drop when the verse comes in. Totally. The baseline, we talked about, DeDonna Summer, I feel. But also inspired by the score, a part of the score of the Luke Bisson 2003 film District 13, which is about, that's right, parkour.

Oh, my God. Stars David Bell, the founder of Parkour. But the point back to District 13 is that there is a dotted baseline line. sin in the score by this guy de octopus. And this also has that dotted baseline. Yes, pixelated kind of like Oh, it's so good.

Okay, the next song is I don't like cities. I don't like cities. I like New York. Other places make me feel like a dork. Los Angeles is for people who sleep. Paris and London, baby, you can keep. Here's the thing. She's right about Los Angeles and I do love to sleep and I will stay there because I love

sleeping. She's not wrong. I remember hearing this. So to me, Madonna Cringe era begins with American Life with the rap on the song. I love that rap. I love it, but there is an element of cringe to it. I feel, okay. My argument would be the American Life rap is meant to be cringe because it's satire.

Because she is satirizing a kind of person who would say those things. That's my view of it. That is very Axel Rose's excuse for saying some really bad slurs on one in a million. I was playing a character. Sure. She didn't say slurs. No, I know, I know. She said Minnie Cooper and soy latte.

I know. No, yes. Soy latte. I thought it was very proto-Keshah TikTok, which is also what I said. I feel like when Kesha did it on TikTok, everyone loved it. I don't mind her rapping, but I do think that it was, it introduced for the first time to me. I had never cringed at her before. I'd never seen her be like a little bit outside the cool box.

Right. And I was actually, when I thought I was talking about American life, I was mapping how old she was when she was. when she made that to Robin's existential rap. Okay. They're only a year apart. That's the one that just came out. Yes.

Yeah. Anyway. I had a hard time. Just with that. Just like a little bit of cringe from a person who was just so perennially cool. Yeah. So I love New York.

It just took me so aback because I was like, what are you doing? It has grown on me. I love it. It's a favorite now. But I remember when I was reviewing this album, I was like, what the hell is she thinking? I kind of feel like if she just had not said the word dork.

Yeah, dork is a mere word. We wouldn't have had this conversation. Yeah. But other places always make me mad at the places it's sad. I never love it. Yeah. I mean, that really is that's the word. You don't want that word.

Yeah. What I'll always go back to is that I do think that Madonna at her heart is a comedian. She has a very specific sense of humor. I did see you speaking about this in prior episodes and I do agree. There was a very funny line in Christopher Chaconi's book where he like mentions that like she's constantly making bad jokes and everyone has to laugh at them because they're scared of her. And I was like, that's relatable. Me too. She is funny, but she's so, she has a very specific sense of humor.

But I would put this more in cringe than humor. Okay. But, again, great song. But it's, yeah, it's, listen, it's Candy Darling musical biopic. I mean, she's playing a character. It's Candy Darling. Candy Darling feels like a dork or felt like a dork when she was in other cities. I mean, I can see that.

And this is a song, you know, Madonna loves to play electric guitar starting around this era, and she plays electric guitar to this a lot. I've been getting into a new hobby of mine, parkour. Just kidding. No, it's responding to mean comments or corrective comments on Instagram. It used to raise my blood pressure and now I just enjoy it. I was going to say, don't read the comments. No, but sometimes now it's fun because I'm like, don't try me.

You think I didn't do, you think I didn't make 600-page Google document? You think I don't know what I'm talking about? Because they want a well-actually mean-to-death. Well, you know, just like Madonna. It's sexism and ageism. So someone came and was like, oh, really? I had talked about her prior pre-Madonna era bands. And, oh, I think this is fake news because she famously had to learn guitar in the 2000s.

And I was like... She, like, relearned guitar. No. I was like... Brushed up, yes. Just because she knows how to play guitar. I know many friends who play guitar who need to get better at it, guitar is an incredibly difficult instrument.

You can play remedial guitar and make plenty of music that way. I don't... Have you ever heard of power chords, base? You've heard pop punk? Those people can't shred. No. So she wanted to play at a level that she could perform in concert. Bitch.

Okay, anyways, that was my... Just aside. Here's what Madonna said about I love New York. The person was like, oh, it's very funny. And she said, oh, I don't mean that. I love London and Paris. And hello, I live in London. It just sounded cool.

I wrote the song when I was in New York on tour. I have a history with New York that I don't have anywhere else in the world. Even though I grew up in Michigan, I really grew up in New York. That's true. Then she goes on in a part where she's like actually it was an homage to the police and then I had to skip that because of ACAP. There's sirens, police sirens on that song and I'm often driving to that song and I'm immediately looking at my mirror. You're like I'm here pulled over. Yeah.

Every time. Alexis Pedritis and The Guardian said, I love New York maybe the most agreeably ridiculous thing Madonna has ever released. Timpani, a riff stolen from the stoojures, I want to be your dog and a Lou Reed deadpan. Those all sound good to me. I mean, it works. I like it. Yeah. The next song is Let It Will Be.

This one is a Mirway song, but also written with Stuart Price. I actually really like this song. I do, too. Yeah. Someone was trying to criticize her, I don't want to use the word preoccupation, because that's not the right word, but her sort of like dealing with the theme of fame not being satisfying or fame being elected. It's like, if you heard of any pop star contemporary pop star, this is all people sing about. This Drake's entire career. They're like, oh, as if she invented it.

And I'm like, okay, fucking pick something. Do you want an artist to write honestly about their experience or do you not? Because that's what happens when that's your experience. Also, very few people were and has ever been as famous as Madonna. No. And also, actually, whoever it was whose name I can't remember, in 2005, not so much, but now, I think that's an incredibly relatable sentiment for a lot of people who have, you know, micro to minimal amounts of fame via the internet, you know?

and more people than ever are chasing it. And I don't think it's a bad thing to hear. Guess what? It sucks. Although sometimes it doesn't suck. Sometimes someone buys you a nice thing and sends it to you. Like the sex book, I believe, right? Thank you so much, Andrew Garrison.

I love you, babe. I would not forget that. He said I could use his full name. I know. It inspired me to buy my own. I'd never had it. I went on eBay and I started, like, frantically scouting them after you received yours as a gift. It's a gift.

Can you even believe? I love it so much. I was paging through it actually the other day in bed. It's so wonderful. I did not open mine. It's sealed. I had to. I'm going to have to buy a second one.

I was like, I'm not doing this. I'm not leaving it open. I'm not leaving it unopened. I want to go and look at it. Yeah. Maybe I'll buy it. We used to look it on the bus in middle school. It was salacious.

Who had it in middle school? I cannot remember. Someone's dad probably. Somebody had it and I was like, oh my God. Yeah. My uncle had it and I remember we were all like, what's going on here. But then when I revisited it now, and I don't want to, maybe like I'm too porn-brained or whatever, but like I was like, this is not that bad. Like, this is actually like so tame compared to like what I was imagining.

One thing about Let It Will be, Madonna said it's kind of expressing the same theme of the opening of my film. There's more to life than fame and fortune. After all the years I've been famous, 22 years or something, I don't remember. I know that sounds like a really stupid thing to say, but I like I can't remember, but it's just been this immensely long ride. and I just feel like I've earned the right to be able to step back and look at it and say it is what it is. I don't feel cynical about it. I don't feel overjoyed by it. I don't feel let down by it.

It just is what it is. That's the road I took, less traveled by. And hopefully I've made the best of it. It's a very thoughtful statement. I think so too. Forbidden love. Isn't it so interesting that she used the same title of one of her existing songs off bedtime stories? She can do whatever she wants.

As she said, I did all of that on purpose. If I'm going to plagiarize somebody, it might as well be me me, right? I feel like I've earned the right to rip myself off. That's funny. Yeah. I like this song a lot. I don't love this song. I liked the choreography at the tour.

I like it. Where they were like doing like the arm tango. Yeah. Representing peace in the Middle East. I'll be Islam. Listen, the thing is about this is this was still, and I think for Madonna always, but maybe changes a little bit when we get further on. This is an album that's meant to be consumed as a whole.

Yeah. And so you need pacing. No, you do. This is a beautiful song to have the pacing. Like kind of catch your breath for a second. We're taking a smoke break. Yeah, we are on the dance floor, but we need to get a drink, you know, we have fits our hair, powder our nose.

Okay, the next is the Karen Gans. Oh, my God. Peak, the apex of. Honestly, jump is like one of, it's not my number one. It might be my number one. my top three Madonna songs ever. This is my opportunity to be like unsung hero of a lot of Madonna tracks that I love, Joseph Henry, babe. Joseph Henry, what a weapon. Your brother-in-law? A relative. I know. I mean, like right there. Oh, my God. I literally, I listened to this song so much

before I quit my job recently that I can't even tell you. Here I go. Yeah, it's a fantastic song. It has a great message. Also, obviously, I'm me, so anything that has a little guitar on, and I'm like, you had me a hello. I thought you're going to say parkour because it's a parkour video. As you know, I'm the second biggest advocate of farcore in the world. And behind the guy who invented it? Yeah. No, behind Madonna. He's third.

This is the song that I was talking about that the strings are inspired by West End Girls from Petro Boys. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. It really has a very similar shimmering strings. I'm right in it. Yeah. It's so good. It's just, there's always so much you can learn in one place, as you said.

Yeah. The longer I wait, the more time that I waste. I have heard this song in the wild twice in the past month. Once at Zanadu Rollerink at my friend Metrix album release party, coincidentally. And then at Club Coming recently. And I was like, this song is literally, it's like speaking to me directly. I'm going to tell you what. You need to follow Karen Gans on Instagram.com because this woman is out here in these streets. Every day I'm like, Karen, amazing. She's having a different kind of martini and going to a different musical event.

And I'm like, I haven't been outside in six days. This is the difference between New York and L.A., literally at the table. I feel like a dork. Yeah, jump is great. Also, I think you can read the messaging in several ways, right? It's like it can be leaving a thing or it can be entering a thing together. You know, like let's jump into. So you got to take a risk.

You have to make change in your life. You have to go all in. I love every message of the song. Love it. Yeah. Right now. Joe Henry, let's fucking go. Yeah.

Also very clever. I'm sorry, I like it to go straight into How High. I know. And I also love How High. It's one of my favorites. These are your Swedes that you were talking about before. Bloodshy and Avant who famously won a Grammy for writing Toxic with Britney. For Britney?

With Britney? I'm not sure. I don't know if she has writing. I'm going to go with four. Yeah. They actually were not there at the Grammy to accept it because they were with Madonna working on this album. I didn't know that. That's amazing.

Madonna said, although she obviously. was familiar with Brittany because they did a song together. Me Against the Music. I bring that up to say because she had said she had found Bloodshy and Avant because Lordis was listening to a lot of Rachel Stevens and ours I'm not familiar with. I did not know. Who Bloodshy and Vaughanavant also produced and Brittany and she liked what she heard. But she obviously already knew Britney.

So maybe she was talking about Rachel Stevens. Man. When I went to review that Britney album for Spinn a million years ago, I heard a version of that song without Madonna on it and they were like, oh, we're going to add a guest. So then when I heard the real thing, I was like, oh my God. Also, that video with the two of them peak. It's wonderful.

It's a great song. Yeah. Yeah. I was just, this is a cute moment I had this morning with the barista at my hotel coffee shop. There was two barista. One walked by just singing Britney Spears. And then he walked away and I was like, he was bump in and sing that Britney. He was like, oh, I know, right?

A bop. And then I forgot I was wearing this Madonna t-shirt. And he goes, by the way, I love your t-shirt. And I was like, I know. And at the same time, we'd love your t-shirt. I'm not joking. We said, she's the blueprint. And he was like, I was like. Wow. I love New York. I love New York. So true.

But I love this. It's funny. I spent my whole life wanting to be talked about. I did just about anything to see my name in lights. Yeah. Was it all worth it? You know, I can relate. And then nobody's perfect. I guess I deserve it. Once again, quoting herself. Quoting herself from Nobody's Perfect and I deserve it. Very direct here. Yeah.

This is not about age in the sense of like what you can and can do. I think it's more about like the arc of someone's life. This is around the time where you might start to look back and assess what's happened. Well, she's also like, can I do more? Is there more for me? What will I accomplish? And this is again with the blueprint thing. It's like almost everything in pop music, she pioneered.

People were not making albums like this at her age. I mean, I'm not ageous, but like, it's just no one had really done it, women. They weren't allowed. No. So she's like, she's carving the past. She's trying to figure out what is left for me to do. Will there be room for me? How will I make it happen?

And thank God this happened because, again, like we kind of touched on this, but she didn't want to make another album. Not, maybe ever. But at this time, she was like, she was busy. I'm making a sci-fi musical about Candy Darling's dementia, which I really, can someone just make that anyways? It's going to happen now. It's going to happen now. Let's spar. I love it. I love Isaac.

I don't love Isaac. I think, okay, I'm not to be like whatever. I'm Middle Eastern. So to me, this is like... They're just going to make me feel like crap for me. No, no, I don't like this sign. I just think it like, no, that's fine. It's just like, for me there's a familiarity and this shit hits for me. Like, I love how, I love the music.

I love the melody. I just like this, it's giving to me. It feels like it would have fit really well in like Ray of Light. I agree with that. Yeah. I just found it jarring to hear another person's voice, like, suddenly because it's so deep in her. It's like the whole album is so throbby and womb-like and you're in the club or whatever.

And then suddenly it's like you're not. One of the songs, one of the bonus tracks was meant to be in that spot, but they end up removing it for some reason. And this was the last song to be added to the album. So I can see what you mean that it feels lightly out of place. But also, just like a white girl's going to speak some Espaniel, Madonna's going to put some god up in this bitch. Not opposed to that. But it does feel like this is the turning point where the album changes direction a little bit. And the last three songs are kind of like a little bit.

You're taken out of the vibe, a teeny teeny bit. It's not a bad song. I just, it's jarring for me. I'll put it, like primal screams scream medallica. You know, perhaps it's in the arc of a night out, you know. And the night out doesn't continue. At some point, it winds down. Never ends.

Never ends. At the Roxy till 10 a.m. That's all. That's all I'm saying. I will mention Isaac, you know, had some controversy, I think, because there also is no Madonna album without controversy. There was a group of rabbis in Israel saying it was blasphemous before they even heard the record. The song is named after Yitzhak Sinwani, who is the singer singing in Yemenite. And it's a popular Yemeni song called Im Ninnalu.

for you. And he's saying if all of the doors of all the generous people's homes are closed to you the gates of heaven will always be open. I mean that's nice.

That's nice. Yeah. The next song is push. I really don't have too much to say about that song. Me neither. I didn't write one note on it. I wrote eh.

It's not, it's again, like I like it while I'm listening to the album there's not a part where I'm like, you know, like, it's like a nice way to like sort of like

wind the album down. It's just there. And then the last album on the regular release is Like It or Not, which is also written with Stewart and Bloodshy and Avant. This song always reminds – I really like this song, actually. I don't know maybe that's a controversial. It reminds me of her version of fever off of erotica.

That is what I wrote in the review. Right? That is like a fever-biting closer. Yeah. But I said it offered a neutered retread of her raison d'etre. This is who I am. You can like it or not. I guess I like the other songs in that vein a little bit more.

But I do appreciate her, like, never going to stop. I mean, like, this is – she's relentless. Yeah. Madonna is impatient and she is relentless. I love these qualities. I do think also like the framework of like this is who I like, who I am you can like it or not. You can love me or livy because I'm never going to stop becomes like way more sharpened in focus by like what we hear about later with the ending of her marriage and how she said she felt and how she like kind of had to fight to like be herself and do what she wanted. You know?

And I just like how it sounds. I like the sound of it. I like it. This is who I am. Okay. And then the bonus tracks are Fighting Spirit, which, again, the instrumentals of that one was maybe from Hello Suckers. Super Pop, also maybe from Hello Suckers, originally called Funny Game and History, which was maybe written for that Candy Darling musical. Personally, I'm not that into bonus tracks.

Okay. On this one, me know, but on some of the other albums, I'm like, I need to re-sequence this album. And you guys fucked up. Definitely Rebel Heart. We'll get there. All right. So, on the, you know, Madonna's back on top of the world. I've seen people refer to this as her third imperial phase.

I could do that. Yeah. It's definitely the third, I mean, her whole career is littered with peaks, but I think this is one of the third major peaks. There was, like, genuine excitement about this when it actually started to get out in the world. Yeah. So then 2006, when she shows up at Coachella, it was like the place went off. Yeah, and you were there. So right before that, she did the Grammys.

Yes. Which I want to just mention because it's fucking so cool because it's with the gorillas as holograms and then herself as a hologram dancing around them until she appears in that purple Dolceangabana course. It's so sick. You can watch it on YouTube. And I'm also like, I love those gorillas cartoons. I just think it was a cool. But yes. And then in April she surprised everyone at Coachella in the Sahara tent.

Well, I think it was announced. Oh, it wasn't announced. Because I was out there. I was interviewing people for some photo shoot for GQ. I had just gotten fired from Spin, I think. yes. Because you weren't mean to Madonna. No, no, no, because someone bought it and fired all of us.

Again, the story of media in this era. And everyone I interviewed, I was like, we were excited to see. And everybody, I was like, Seelow, like everyone was like, Madonna, we all got to see Madonna. And I was like, this is going to be crazy. I got to get over. And it was a dance tent. She was not headlining. She was not on the main stage.

It was like, it was dark, but it was not, it was not like, you know, the last night. The last set of the night. And I could not even get anywhere near the tent. I was watching it on a big screen. I sent you some of my grainy one megapixel. I literally was like, was this filmed on a BlackBerry? I don't understand. Definitely looks like that.

I have like seven more clips that look like that and it is insane. And I mean like, you hear screaming. I'm like, is it me? Who's screaming? There's just screaming. She looks unbelievable. I remember at one point someone spilled water on the stage and she yelled at them because she's like, I'm going to break my neck.

You're going to spill water on my stage and then people were like, you know, drying it off. It was actually insane. But like the energy everywhere was just nuts. It was like it was Madonna Chella. It just happened. It just happened. Also, 2005 was still like the salad days of Coachella. It was like really a wonderful time.

I didn't go that year, but it was still like normal. Oh, God, it was so much fun. It was two days. It was one weekend. Yeah. I personally saw Groove Armada in that same tent in 2003 and I did lose my ever-living mind to super silent. But yeah, that tent is not big. No.

It really, it felt like a true moment. And it felt like Madonna owned everything once again. And I was so excited. So cool. Yeah, I think, again, I think this is another apex. And then you get into the tour. Yes. Which you want to.

Oh, my God. I love this tour so much. This is my favorite Madonna tour. It's so well done. Again, I wasn't there, but I've watched it multiple times on the TV and computer. It starts May 21st, 2006, and ends September 21st, 2006, grossed nearly $200 million. Deserved every penny. That point is the most ever for a tour by a woman artist, second only to the Rolling Stones that year.

She just keeps breaking that record over and over and over again. Stuart Price is back as a musical director. Donna DeLorey came back. She had a three-year-old child, and she said, I'll only come if you give me a car for my nanny and my child. Madonna was like, done. And then Nikki Richards is doing McIvill's because our other Nikki, no longer touring with Madonna.

She replaced her with another Nikki. She doesn't want to remember another name, which I actually understand as someone who can't remember anyone's names. This, I love, Yossi's Fashion Corner. Sorry, Patrick's not here, so I have to do it. For the first time since Blonde Ambition, Jean-Paul Gautier would be the sole designer of this show, which is very cool because at the time he's the creative director, Hermes. He made that shoulder broken that I love him and if anyone wants to gift me, I'm here to receive.

But this is very cool because it fits perfectly with the equestrian themes of the new show. I mean, what's more equestrian than Hermes, you know? Like, ugh. Even I love. Even I will say yes. I love that that coming together. There's a bunch of new dancers, but I'll just point out one or two of them. One, Charmaine Jordan, also known as Charm Ladana.

She was 17 years old when she was recruited to join this tour. There was a former ballerina turned break dancer named Sophia Boutella, and then Sebastian Foucahn, who does parkour. Okay, I know. He's the one who does parkour in the hung up video. I love in all of the Madonna tour movies where you see. the scenes of her casting the dancers and how seriously she's like studying them. And how good she is at it is.

Her eye is so good. She doesn't choose the best possible dancers. She chooses the most interesting people, which is so major. Also, I just want to point out Sebastian Foucahn. I don't know if you guys have seen Casino Royale. He is the parkurer, the man parkouring in the opening chase scene.

Parkour was really big for a second around this time. There's two parkour dancers on the tour. Anyways, not important. So tell me more about the tour. Can I talk to you about some of my favorite moments? Yes. I have a list of them because I rewatched it. Of course.

Okay, obviously I already referenced when the disco ball splits open and she's there. I was just like, I mean, I think the entire place levitated. Also, the disco ball came down from the ceiling and I was like, I don't know what I was on, but I was like, oh my God, was she up there the entire time? No, she was probably below the stage and popped up into the disco ball. But for like an hour, I was like, she was up there the entire time. She's on her phone. She's on her rocker listening to some tunes. Yeah, I was like, oh my God.

Okay, so that was one of them. Lived Arucifax, which made the Vatican so mad. When I watched that, I was like, what? With her arms. It's amazing. Pinned. The crown of thorns. And the crown.

But they got the mic just, like, coming out because she has no hands because they're pinned. Because she's crucified. Being crucified. I love guitar Madonna. So she does, I love New York, and she does Ray of Light. Which I couldn't, you know, I didn't love it on Ray of Light. This starts her doing Ray of Light only on guitar. Yeah, which is like kind of pisses me.

me off because that to me is not a guitar song. I kind of like it. We disagree there. Yeah. You me and Madonna. We all are going to disagree. That's just the one thing. I'm like, no.

Brea ofite is just like a shimmery disco-y song today. But it's a guitary song. I mean, obviously it could be. You just want to see her do this. I do. Oh my God. You know I do. Which is actually at least the exact next one.

The unhinged dancing on Let It Will Be where she's just kind of like stuttering around with just the mic. She's in like a black t-shirt and jeans. And I'm like pure. It's wonderful. There's a couple more. I'm sorry. No, please. But the next one is key, music inferno.

It's so good. Where she is literally the dancers are roller skating to music. Then she comes out in like a white Saturday Night Fever suit with Donna and Nikki. What, now I know the other one is in Nikki too. Didn't know. And then she's just like literally like disco pointing and like bopping down. And then that's when she removes the suit. She opens it.

Yeah. Oh my God. One of the, I, when I worked at Rolling Stone, I literally would make people come into my office and watch this on YouTube. I'd be like, have you seen music infirmative? You can't be my friend until you've watched music. No, people from Rolling Stone, if you remember this moment, I would literally bring people into my office and close the door and be like, we're watching this. It's important. It's indoctrination.

This is canon. That's amazing. Oh, my God. I love that moment. And then it ends with a hung up Lucky Star mix where she is blending Lucky Star with the hung up baseline and track. It's so good. I mean, tours do not get better than this. I also just love, I'm such a Stuart Price Stand.

I like because he's hot. But, like, just him in the background, he's always kind of, like, doing something while smirking. Yeah. He's like, DJing while smirking, playing guitar, smirking. Also, he can do everything. Yeah. He's a big fan. God, this tour, epic, epic epic epic.

It's really great. If you could time travel and see one Madonna tour, what would it be? Oh, Blonde ambition. Same. Yeah. Obviously, I think that's the only correct answer. Yeah. Oh, good.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're all good, obviously. No, I mean, that's the one that does, like, reinvent's what a pop show is. Yes, exactly. Well, I think, like, again, blueprint. Blueprinted it. Yeah, I mean 100%. Grand zero. All right. So she's high. She's not off drugs. She's famously quite sober as a judge during this time. But she takes her second trip to Malawi.

The previous fall, she had received a phone call from a businesswoman from Malawi named Victoria Keelan, who had heard about Madonna's program, spirituality for kids. I believe this was a cabala-related situation. It kind of sounds like a racket, but yeah. It sounds like, well, it sounds like, well, $100,800 cars for kids, which recently had a bit of scandal. I don't know if you know that a judge allegedly reportedly, because I'm now paraphrasing a tweet, but find them because they present the ads with eight children of various ethnicities, and actually they only give the money to Jewish children, to Orthodox Jewish children. Oh, I didn't know that.

Nothing to see there. $100 cars for kids, spirituality for kids. Madonna said that this woman, Victoria Killian, was. was like, if you're in the business of helping children, we have over a million orphans here in Malawi, and the problem is insane. I believe she also said, and then Madonna was like, I don't even know where Malawi is. And the lady was like, look it up on a map and hung her up, hung her up, hung up on her. Which is kind of sick. I mean, who talks to Madonna like that like, Victoria Killen, which is like, I don't care about you right now. We have a billion orphans. So that is Madonna went ahead and looked at a map and did some research and ended up creating a foundation called Raising Malawi. I'm like really speeding this because this is, you know, I mean, it's part of the story, but I don't think it's, like, incredibly pertinent to the music.

It's all good. With a focus on supporting Malawi's orphans and vulnerable children, and she had gone one time that passed April to visit the country. So at this time on her second visit, the Kabbalah Center in Los Angeles, which she was heavily involved in, was undergoing some pretty intense scrutiny over mismanaged funds, I believe, reportedly allegedly. and critics were using this as a way to devalue Madonna's charitable efforts. This I'll never understand. I'm like, why are you coming for a person's charitable efforts? She literally is just giving millions of dollars to try to help things. And you're like, can you believe this fucking bitch?

This is how people treated Madonna. Like even the kindest things were seen with skepticism. And then the press picked up on a news story, which was that there was a potential adoption of it. On October 4th, a Malawi government spokeswoman announced a Madonna intended to adopt a baby boy. She'd been making a documentary in Malawi directed by Nathan Ristman. This I love. Is this? I am because we are.

I just need to know Nathan Risman had been her gardener. And the reason that she had tapped him. I love Madonna for this. Is that just like L.A. though? Like everyone in L.A. is like... This is London, I think. Oh, it is. Okay.

He had made movies of Lourdes and Rocco while Madonna was away and sent them to her. so to cheer her up. And she's like, these are good. You should direct a movie? I just feel like this is Madonna's one of her greatest talents. Scouting and tapping people. Like, Alec Chichinian was a, hadn't basically done anything, you know? Like he was a Harvard graduate with a thesis and a couple of things.

And she was like, you will do my biggest tour documentary. You will set the tone for every music documentary ever made. Exactly. Yes. So that Nathan Rispin was hired for I Am Because We Are, which I'm so sorry. I did not watch. I mean, I saw it a million years ago, but I just love saying I am because we are. I've said that for years, and it's fun.

I believe it's a translation of a Malawi sentiment or whatever. I'm sure it's something very serious, and I am making a mockery of it. But it's... That's fine, Karen. It's fine. You already said you don't like Middle Eastern music, and now you're mocking the Malawi language. Here to be canceled. Okay, so anyways, she had watched all these videos that were coming from Nathan Risman from Malawi over and over,

and she had become really feeling a connection to the children of them, particularly a baby boy called David Banda. So she finally goes there and meets the 13-month-old at Home of Hope Orphanage, where he had already survived malaria and tuberculosis, and at the time was having active pneumonia. He had been born into a family that lost two of his three children to malaria, and his mother, Marita, had died six days after giving birth to him. And his father, Johann Bonda, was basically had no money and was desperate and was like, I can't care for this five-week-old child.

And so he placed them in the orphanage. In October 12th, the courts gave him to honor. mission to assume temporary custody of David and take him out of the country while the adoption process continued. This also caused some controversy. I just remember this was like a shit show. Yeah. Because human rights activists were saying that Madonna and Guy were circumventing the laws that they had in place in Malawi, which was like that people had to live there for 18 months before they adopted a child, which I think is a good thing to prevent trafficking. Yeah. But obviously Madonna was not trafficking a child. She was like, I can't stay. I can't live in Malawi for 18 months.

and Madonna have stuff to do. The point is they really dragged her through the mud. There was like an ABC news story called Black Babies. Are they Hollywood's newest accessory? My God. Rude. I think because I didn't write it down, but I'm sure it's around the time. Also, that maybe Angelina Jolie, adopted her first child.

It was all kind of in the same time frame. Yes. Madonna said the blowback crushed her. She said, I have to say it was one of life's great disappointments. However, the ray of light, if you will, is that because she's Madonna, it raised a shit ton of awareness for a situation that probably people had no idea what was happening or didn't pay attention to you, which was this crisis of orphans in Malawi. Right. People really didn't know Malawi. I remember being like, that country is new to me. Right. Yeah. As Catlin Moran put it in the London Times that year, in a single act of altruism, she has managed to ignite a debate that encompasses immigration, Africa, working mothers, modern parenting, international adoption law, race, money. in fame.

Yeah, that's right. Madonna Bibb. Also around the same time she met David. She met a little girl named Mercy, who was just a few months younger than David. She'll ultimately adopt both of them. I'm just not going to get into the whole details of the timeline. She also starts to make a film around this time. Not I am because we are.

Filth and Wisdom. Oh. I did not see this film because it's pretty much impossible to watch. I don't think I've seen it. Yeah. But when that's done, it's time to make another album because she has one that she's owed to Warner Brothers. Mm-hmm. 2007, February, Timbaland.

You know him? I do. Yeah. He announces that he's working with Madonna on her next album, which she had already begun with Farrell Williams, but wanted additional songs that had more of a groove. I'm just going to give you guys a quick Timbaland sidebar for those of my rockerhead slash young people. People who just are not familiar. And Karen's going to help me with this because Karen was a very active music journalist at this time.

I needed you to understand how massive Timbaland is. in music and culture and the sound of music of this time. I'm going to say he was like the Jack Antonoff of pop at that moment. This is not to shit on Jack Antonov. Just in terms of omnipresence. Except to me, I can't. I, and maybe, again, I'm not a music journalist, so don't, you know, come from me. But unless someone tells me Jack Antonoff produced it,

you don't hear it? Maybe a little bit. There's no way that you can't hear a Timbaland song and not know it's fucking Timbaland. First of all, mostly because he puts himself on a lot of them. But also it's just such a specific sound. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, he's one of the producers where there's, like, a sonic signature. And you aren't going to hear, I guess.

Probably there is about Jack Gantanom, too, but I'm probably talking about it. There is. Some artists let him do it more than others. Yeah, okay. So Tim Alana had started, you know, producing for R&BX. He had done Jodd's sister. He kind of had his big breakthrough producing the majority of Alia's one in a million album, which is a god tear, and Ginny Wein's Album,

We're Writing the Pony. Close collaborator with Missy Elliott. Super close collaborator with Missy Elliott. Elliot. And then they started doing tons of hip-hop, Jay Z. Naus, The Locks, UGK, Big Pimpin, ever fucking heard of it? He's just done so much. But then by here, he had done Justin Timberlake's second solo studio album, Future Sex Love Sounds. Yeah, this was massive. Sexy Back. Mm-hmm. That song, because I checked, 1.4 billion streams on Spotify. I've rarely seen the billion. Yeah. Billion. Do you do the Arctic Monkey?

have like 8 billion stream songs. Really? Yeah. Fun fact for you. Yeah, you'll check that out around. Fun fact for you. Yeah, that's a massive song. What Goes Around Comes Around.

There's so much. He also, I think kind of importantly, maybe to our purposes, just in terms of like, very important, but also Nellie Furtado's 2006 album Loose. Fucking banger after banger on that one. Amazing album. I love, I love Nellie Fertado. She's also a little Canadian queen? She's Canadian, right? Yes, she's definitely very Canadian.

I also love I'm like a bird. I love it. Sorry, so wonderful. He worked with Cole Play, whatever. He is, would you agree that he is, like, one of the most major architects of the sounds of this era? Absolutely massive. And Justin Timberlake, you know, when this album comes out in 2008, so they're making in 2007. He's just one year removed from, like, this massive pivot where everyone's like, oh, my God, he's a genius. He figured out how to go from being kind of like a cheesy boy band guy to, like, this sort of, like, futuristic, you know, like, sonic engineer, you know, like this clever pop star.

This is the highest that Justin Timberl ever rode. And also, sorry, not to discount Frell. Obviously, the Neptunes had had a major moment all through the early 2000s, and they had done some of the greatest songs, and were continuing to do. So, like... I mean, Neptune's just, their popularity seemed to never wane. They kind of like always had their fingers in something. But also I was going to say another of the collaborators with Justin and Timberlin

was Dangea, who goes on to make Britney Spears as black. Actually, it might have been even simultaneous. Yeah. And he's all over this album. Yeah. So apparently, so she started with Frell. She wanted to seek out Timberland, who also at the same time was wanting to work with her. So it kind of worked out perfectly.

And then apparently, Gai Osiri was like, you guys should also bring in Justin Timberlake. This I didn't love. So she does an interview with John Norris. I think this was in public, right? It was like a – not in public, but it was like at an event. Like people were there. Yeah. About why she wanted to work with these big producers in Justin Timberlake.

And she was like, because they're good and I like their shit. I mean, I don't like to repeat myself, and I was sitting around thinking, what music do I love right now? And it was actually your record, and she points to Justin Timberlake. And she goes, I was listening to it obsessively, and he touched his heart. I would be touched if Madonna was listening to my album obsessively. I know, I know. You're never not going to be in Mickey Mouse Club. You know what I mean?

Wow. But this is the part I didn't like, not that part. Okay. Justin Timberlake has asked, like, oh, well, how did you, you know, Farrell's already here, Timbaland, now you're in. like what are, how are you going to do this? And he goes, we decided to co-produce together and just throw, you know, Madonna into the mix. Yeah, I don't like that. Nobody throws Madonna into the mix.

That's kind of what they did on this album. Well, okay, so my analog for this album, from this perspective now, was like, this is kind of like her Taylor Swift reputation, where it was like she's going to engage with the actual sound and aesthetics of pop music at the moment. Because she never really did that. She was always kind of doing her own thing. It was like her version of disco, her version of dance music, her version of like whatever, you know, erotica. That's true. All those things. So I felt like this was the first time where she was like, you know what, I am listening

to the radio, this is what's happening. I'm going to see how I insert myself into this. But she was certainly not their play thing, although. I feel like you're a hard candy truther. I am because I reviewed this album. This is my first lead review for Rolling Stone. I took this so seriously. Like I, you know, you get Stockholm syndrome.

Sometimes when you listen to, obviously. I sure do. Yes, this album. I was completely indoctrinated. Go on. Okay. So right before this album comes out, Madonna is inducted into the rock and roll of Fame right alongside Leonard Cohen, John Mellencamp, the Dave Clark Five, and The Ventures.

And because she's the coolest ever, she chooses Iggy Pop and the Stooges to perform her songs, Burning Up and Ray of Light. It's so cool. I couldn't find the Burning Up, but you couldn't watch the Ray of Light performance on YouTube. So cool. He's just shirtless. To introduce her, she chose Justin Timberlake. She was a little album promo.

That's right. Guy Ritchie does not attend this. Further cracks in the foundation. And then Hard Candy comes out April 18th, 2008. I've come around to some of this album. I think, okay, this is a total me thing and not a Madonna and this album quality thing. I just have aversion to this time period and things that sound like this time period. And it's because I was a miserable person in 2008.

There I am in my Gucci bucket hat, you know, just trying to live. It's just also like She swung so far from like I feel like the last few albums were like very European Sensibility with the producers you know mirrorway you have Stuart Price and then she goes so American Yeah which is great She's American. Well she was shaking the accent at that point but yes yeah No you're 100% right and it was it was like I think I even said in my review that was like unusual for her to make herself so available to these American hitmakers

Yeah I mean, this was a swerve, but, like, you know, you want Madonna to swerve. Sure, of course. I guess, like, okay, we'll get into it. Okay. I love four minutes. I surprised myself by how much I love four minutes. This is my favorite of the Timberland-Timbledek ones.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's the best one. Yeah. I do, okay, it's awesome. Yeah. Danger also, a writer on this song. Apparently this is the first Madonna single to ever have a feature on it. I believe that.

Which, that opened a real Pandora's box. Yes. Yeah. I love this song. I think it's a banger. The bridge is a little corny. I wish they had, the brass was real and live. Yeah.

Because once you hear, and these words will never again come out of my mouth, but once you hear the Glee version where they did use a marching band, like, it sounds so fucking good. And I just kind of wish it had been on here. But even without I, this is a great song. I love a marching band song. I actually, I did a story of spin on unhinged, experimental marching. bands.

Yeah. And one of the examples was Feral, just ironic since he's the other half of this album. Well, she did. This shit is bananas. Yes. And he was like, we made Hollaback Girl specifically for the marching bands. My favorite story I mean that is that that's about Courtney Love. Interesting.

Courtney Love, you're all over this up. She's all over my heart and mind and culture. Yeah. And also literally pop culture because she did inspire that song. I look. Four Minutes is apparently, it was the first single. She said it was about having a sense of urgency and living on bar. road time, especially regarding the environment.

This is where I'm going to go into like my thing where I'm like, I don't know what this album is about. Can I quote my review? Yes, please. Please. To remind myself, I called it her midlife meditation on her own relevance. I think that's probably like an overarching theme. But it's like I don't, you know, there's stuff about, oh, God.

I mean, there's, okay, there's that environmental song. There's stuff about her being sort of relentless. There's stuff about her escaping on the dance floor, stuff about people loving her when they're far away, being jealous of others biting her or perhaps taking her place in her relationship. Then there's a song that's literally pure chaos will get there. She's back in the disco. You know, okay, it's not coherent. I think it's not explicitly autobiographical. It's like unconsciously autobiographical, which is totally fine.

It just makes it a little harder for me to like, choo-ch-ch. But there's high moments on here for me. I think that the songs with Farrell are just like sizzling. Just like they had some sort of wild creative tension and that they're really, really good. And the other songs are like, okay. Some of them are okay. Some of them are not so great. It feels like a little retrading the themes that you just mentioned, though.

Like we've kind of like, that's okay. Yeah. She was experimenting because she was working with these pop producers. And she was like, you know. I think it's interesting to like try something different in. the way she's making an album, you know? She's, to this point, kind of mostly worked with producers

who the power imbalance is quite strong, you know? Whereas it not to say that these people are more powerful than Madonna because they're obviously not, but it's a little different of attention, you know? And she was saying when she was making it that they were so busy working with so many people that she was kind of ping ponging back and forth trying to get into their schedules. It's like, you know.

Which happens a lot more when we get to the next couple of albums as well. But the visual theme boxing, championship, candy. Yeah. All of those. A little incoherent.

Yes. I think from what I understand, listen, I love this cover image. I think she looks so fucking cool. From what I understand, it was actually meant to be completely this boxing. I'm the champion thing. And then the candy was a late, I don't say afterthought, but a later thought, which is why it's sort of just like photoshopped into the background of this. They didn't redo the imagery. You know?

I kind of would have preferred, it's not up to me, but... Just the boxing? It's such a cool image. Yeah. Yeah. Like, it's almost like... And she loves putting boxing in her live shows. It's a total Madonna thing.

And she looks fucking cool. She does. But yeah, but then a lot of the songs reference candy, so it kind of makes sense. Also, did you know that she wanted to call this album The Black Madonna? So I learned this from your Google dog. That's right. And I was like, thank God she didn't because there was a Black Madonna, the artist. And she ended up changing her name to the Blessed Madonna in 2020 when it was like,

That's not so cool. Well, you know, I don't want to. No, I'll get canceled, but it's a real thing. The Black. Of course. It's a reference. You know, it's not. But people don't.

Not now. Yes. It might have went okay then, but by now it would not have. No. And she said it. She was like, I thought 25% of the world might get this. Probably less. It's not worth it.

And she was right. That's a wise calculation, Madonna. Liz Rosenberg said to Entertainment Weekly. She loves candy. The title is about the juxtaposition of tough and sweetness, or as Madonna so eloquently expressed, I'm going to kick your ass. But it's going to make you feel good. I have to tell you how I heard this album.

Please. In Liz Rosenberg's office. Okay. At Warner Brothers Records. At Warner Brothers Records. Sitting on a piece of, I think it's the girly show set with the hairdriers. Oh, yeah. She had them in her office.

And I was sitting at a hairdrier listening to this album in her office. And I was like, I think this is my peak. That might have been it, actually. Did it hit you right away? I liked it, but I was like a little like, hmm. And I might. It's just so, it's such a different sound for me. Yeah, it was hard to get my head around all of it.

Again, I've come around a lot of it. I guess my thing is like, I don't want, I don't want to go to a Madonna album and hear someone else so strongly. And I hear Timbaland so strongly on here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I love Timbaland. It's just, you know, okay, but let's go through the actual tracks. Let's do it. I didn't mention the cover image, by the way,

shot by the fabulous Stephen Klein, obviously, because he's been doing most of her imagery at this around this time. Candy Shop is the first song. The lyrics are not amazing. It's a tried and true sex as candy metaphor. This one was produced by Farrell, or sorry, written by Farrell and Madonna and produced by the Neptunes. I like the sticky and sweet refrain.

My sugar is raw. Sticky and sweet. My sugar is raw. I like it. That part I like. We already kind of We already kind of discussed four minutes Fucking banger

Again, the Junkie XL remix is my fucking shit I'll spend time with that I love it There's also someone put me on to like a house remix that's on YouTube And that's fucking amazing too Just shows how good the song is, you know Karen Gans take it away second single This is your dream

Give it to me To me All time. Bangor. I was listening to this on the way over. It's another one of these just like relentless. It's like jump. It's like I'm going to take what I want.

Life is for the taking. I'm like, you know, I am powerful. I love this song so much. And I have two for L points on this. So one was I went to Southwest as we used to do. Oh, this year. Oh, that year. That year.

The year of this album. And I had just heard just like five songs at that point. Yeah. One of them was give it to me, and I was like, oh, my God. I remember I think I still have the notebook where I just, like, wrote the name of the song. I was like, oh my God. It immediately grabbed you. Immediately. So I go to interview Farrell. I cannot remember the circumstance. Like, why? What he was promoting. And he's in a hotel room with a bunch of men. I walk in. And I walk in,

and they were telling some sort of crude sex story. And I walked in every movie's like, and I was like, oh, no, woman in the room. This is going to be terrible. And I sat down across from him and I was like, this man is not taking me seriously. And I was like, you know, I just heard some of the Madonna music that you worked on. He was like, no, I did. You're like, I'm Karen, motherfucking dance. Well, no, but he was like, how would you have heard it? And I was like, I worked for Rolling Stone, and they played it for me. He's like, okay, what do you like?

And I was like, give it to me. And he was like, oh, and he knew that I had actually heard it. And he was like, okay. And then we had, like, a real interview. And he took me seriously. You could have afforded you the respect of being a human. I know. At that moment, he was not.

Anyway, oh, my God, I love this song. It's just I love the synth stuttering. I mean, Pharrell is a fucking God. I will say this is a song that I didn't fully appreciate it until I saw. the tour footage. Yes. Bro. But that, the energy that she brings to that song, because it's the closer, right?

It is. Yeah. It's astonishing. Yeah. She's been dancing for two and a half hours. That's been on a peak athlete time. And again, I mean, I think this is the year she turns 50. Yeah.

Don't need to hold my breath. I can't go on and on and on. However, one drawback. Tell me. Explain to me how Farrell convinced her to say, get stupid, get stupid, get stupid. get stupid. I overlook it because I like the song that much. It's bothersome. You know, she talks about being stupid on American life. I mean, she talks like stupid. It feels like a different get stupid. But then he does the panning with it to the left to the right,

to the left to the right. I'm sorry, don't forget this is also the era where we're involving LMFAO. It was just 2008. It was a terrible time. It was. It was an era of foolishness, let's say. Yeah. There were a lot of things that maybe felt that felt good in the moment that we all deeply regret. I won't even show anyone photos of what I looked like during that time. Well, I was evidently using a digital camera other than two pixels. Absolutely. You know, God knows what I look like. I was wearing all over print hoodies and like it was just a bad time. But the next song also, which I do love, heartbeat, he somehow also gets her to say,

see my booty get down. And then she goes, get down. It fits in with the music. Oh, God. I mean, but... It's American pop music at this time. We're seeing booties get down. But I do love that song. It's another, don't you know, can't you see when I dance. I feel free. M. Dala. These are, yeah.

That's a good song. I do like heartbeat. It kind of encapsulates just like the vibe of confessions. It just like ports it over to this record. Yeah. With a totally different like sensibility. Yes. Miles away is my favorite song on here.

But of course, I mean, you. That's my second favorite. A little guitar and you have me like catnip. I love Miles Away. Oh my God. Just will come from a fuzzy dream. That is a reference to I'm so stupid. I'm so stupid.

I used to live in a fuzzy dream. Oh, that makes sense. Yeah, from American Life. It's a wonderful song. Yeah. To me, it's the high of this album, besides four minutes. Those are my two highs. This is my, it's my second favorite.

Also, not a great sign for her marriage. Again. If somebody is only loving her when she's 6,000 miles apart, is that the distance? There is, like, a couple parts in, I'm going to tell you a secret when I'm like, where it's like, she does the London show and he didn't come. because he was at the pub and I was like, that's not a good sign. Sir.

Yeah. But this song is just so melodic. It's got that little shuffling beat. It's just like, ugh. It is. It's not a ballad. It's like a mid tempo. It's a mid tempo, but it's like, it's the most emotionally.

Yes. Explicit or like evocative song on here. This is Madonna and Timberland and Timberlake and Danger wrote this song altogether. Love it. She's not me, written by Madonna. for all. So things start to get a little weird at this point of the album. You know, it's got that little funky chic bass line.

This album, all of these sort of like tut, tut, beep, beep, disco references are on this record. It's chaotic. And it leads into something that's even infinitely more chaotic. I guess it's like in the vein of Thief of Hearts, which is also sort of a jarring moment on erotica. Yeah. She said that they were listening to a lot of Debbie Harry records and Gloria. and Gloria Gainer, I will survive. I mean, I guess I can kind of hear that.

It's more about the subject matter. Like, at the time, I remember trying to parse, like, is this about, like, another woman in her husband's life, or is this about another pop star? I know. And I was like, is it Brittany? Is it Gaga? Like, I remember, like, going through.

I was trying to have been. Gaga. Although I don't think Gaga existed yet. It must have been Britney. She just put out the fame in 2008 also, so I don't know that she had been. I think I referenced Brittany in my review. Yeah. I mean, but then she was, she spent her whole confessions

press tour keeping for Brittany, like she had the shirts. And so I don't know. I mean, maybe that part of the song that's cool is that it could be read both ways. The less said about this, the better. It's just chaos. Yeah. Beat goes on featuring your close personal friend, Kanye West. Why don't you want everyone to know that you guys are best friends?

We did meet at Rolling Stone because we tweeted in him and we got him to come to the office. Those were really, there were wild days back then. I met him a thousand years ago. How was he? You know what? It was it 2012 or 2013? Whatever the first year was that he was showing his collection at Paris Fashion Week? And I had like, this was like peak party, Yossie, and I had somehow, like, talked my win to Karin-Roytfeld's black tie.

Paris Fashion Week ball. Amazing. I'm hammered. I'm wearing, like, a leather jacket and a football jersey, a black tie ball. So everyone thought I was, like, a rock star. And they kept taking photos of me, but they didn't know who I was. And then I just kind of sidled. He was the only person in there with a bodyguard, even though it was all only, like, famous people.

And I was like, hey, what's up, Kanye? And then I don't know. I just started chatting to him. And I was like, how are you feeling about showing a collection? He was like, it's like trying to Ollie in front of the whole world. I'll never forget it. Oh, man, that's weak. Well, he came to Rolling Stone.

He did like a Q&A session, and he talked about loving Billy Joel and stuff. It was actually really interesting. Listen, problematic. Yes. Many bad things. I don't hate him on this song, actually. to be honest with you. In fact, I think it's just like what he's saying is silly. I have beef. I'm going to tell you what I have beef. I know you do. Okay, you tell me, but I like the

vibe. I like the vibe of his flow. I'm like a vampire under a full moon now. I mean, he's technically a vampire could be under a full moon, just like any of us could be under a full moon. But that's a warwolf thing. He's conflating. Get your occult right. You know what I mean? That's all. He thinks he's going to do something new now. See what to do now. Let me see what it do now. This song is fine. He's going from E to F now. Yeah. I don't. This is a special. I mean, this. I mean, this. This is deeply embedded. This is dangerous.

You love hard candy. I do. I really. I went very in. I don't hate it. I don't hate it. We're back in the disco. We're back in the disco for dance tonight.

It's just harmless. These are harmless songs. Y'all mind if a white girl speaks some Espaniel, part 487? I actually do not like this song. You like this one? I just welcome Madonna speaking Español on one of her albums as she is wont to do. No, I don't like this song. I don't ever think about this song. I don't put it on.

I think live it was okay. If I'm remembering, like, I didn't hate it live. I mean, again, I really hate any of these things live. But it's just like, it's kind of like an unnecessary song. Yote caro means I love you. Mucha gusto means I'm welcome to you. The next song is devil wouldn't recognize you. Literally what goes around comes around. I find it's a bit Crimea River. We have it at home. We have Crimea River at home. Okay. Yeah, it's maybe either one of those. The rain sounds, I think, is what. kind of.

Yeah, yeah. I believe they were asked about that, and Justin Timberlake was like, no, just because they're both mid-tempo. It's like, no, that sounds exactly like that song. This illustrates my kind of ongoing thing with this. I'm like, it sounds too much like other people. No, I agree with you. I'm glad we have it, and I love four minutes.

This devil wouldn't recognize you, by the way, was, again, a song that was written for Hello Suckers, the musical about the woman. I wouldn't have guessed that. That's interesting. With Joe Henry, because Joe Henry's a co-writer on this song. And then it was reworked. by Timberland and Justin Timberlake in Danger. It's not a bad song.

It's not. This is not. I like it. It's just it's a little we have Justin Timberlake at home. And then the last song is voices. I don't need it. This is also a song that was written for Hello Suckers. Or the other Luke Besant. I actually don't know.

It was definitely written for one or the other. I made like the theme of my review of this album to be about like Madonna is like a dominant. She's a dom. She likes to be in charge. Totally. And the interesting thing to me about this record was this sort of like the tension between her allowing herself. to be a little bit played with. But she is both the master and the slave.

I mean, it's not like she's not fully either one of them here. The criticism that I saw lobbying against this album was that it sounds like she is doing a feature on the album that should be her album, which I think is unfair, but I get the kernel of that. Yeah. It has less of her signatures and more of theirs. I agree with everything you were saying about that. But it still yielded some great songs, some great amazing imagery, some good videos. we should talk about the reviews. They were not that good.

I think that was the most positive one. Well, no, it's across the gamut. I think it's kind of polarizing because, like, for example, Blender, which had good writers. RIP, love Blender. Yeah. So Blender gave it four stars. Entertainment Weekly gave it a B Plus. The Guardian gave it four stars.

And then me gave it a five out of ten. Oh. Pop Matters gave it a five out of ten. I always forget about Pop Matters, respectively. Rolling Stone. Was that? That was me. four stars. Good job. I gave it four stars.

That's what it says. Slant magazine, three and a half. The Times London three. So it's like Metacritic is 65. Okay, so it's like meh. Yeah, that's like a D plus. But I like it better than that. But that doesn't tell the whole story because it's polarizing. It's like

a lot of people were like four stars and a lot of people were like, no, thank you. That alone for me, it makes this album so worth it because like I'm glad Madonna was still doing something that was unexpected and push buttons and made people feel comfortable, exactly, because that's fucking cool. 100%. And then she takes it on the road and she reinvents it and you're like, oh, and it just

starts clicking again. 100. I, watching that sticky and sweet tour, I was like, okay, you know what? Let's fucking go to the candy shop. Honestly, even some of these songs, I was just like, whatever. Like, they really, they do pop live. And she just, she just figures it out. So she emerges for the first song, it's Candy Shop, and she's on a throne with a cane.

She loves a throne. I use this as an inspiration. What is the cane about, do you think? It's just a prop. She likes holding something. She likes twirling it. Yeah, Madonna with object. You know, she could poke you with it.

It's powerful. This was inspiration for my 40th birthday party where I had a throne in a cane. FYI. I also had a step and repeat with a cardboard cutout of Madonna that people posed with. That's really good stuff. True inspiration for my life. Thank you, Madonna. Human nature with the electric guitar and then later borderline.

Okay, is this the first borderline? Is this the first borderline appearance in a tour? It's the first I've seen. So this is a contemporary era. Yeah. She hadn't done it in ages. And then she also did guitar Ray of Light and also hung up. And then I was like, okay, you know what?

That was actually a little too much guitar. I don't like Ray of Light with guitar. As previously mentioned and hung up, no. That's a hard no. I like that she tried something different. I mean, you can do it. That just proves, you know, again, the strength of the songwriting and everything. But it's like, I don't want that.

And then she did miles away on acoustic guitar. And I cried. Yeah. I recall crying. It's so lovely. I did. Okay, but then we've got to talk about her jumping rope, which I wrote in all caps, with Keith Herring figures on the screens behind her. So cool. Then she gets on a pole and she does into the groove. Then she gets back down and she jumps double dutch. I mean, my knees. But just like the degree of difficulty, if you fuck up on double dutch, like you're in the ropes and then the whole thing is over.

Well, famously Madonna rehearses things to an inch of their life, so it was not going to happen. But you're talking about a woman, how old is she? 50. Yeah. But she's in. I know. Incredible shade. She is. But I'm not jumping double-dutch. That's all I'll say. She does music.

You need music in the set. She does on the sort of like subway car set. She does like a prayer. That was the first time I had seen that. And then she ends on give it to me. It's so great. I also like the rain. Here comes the rain again.

Intriloid with the video. It was nice. Rain is one of my favorite song. Oh, my God. My one drawback on Sticky and Sweet Tour, the blonde wig with the bangs. I can't talk about it. I can't get into the fuck-ass bangs.

and the fuck-ass wig. That wig... I can't get into it. Damaged me. I was upset. It's the weakest part of that entire tour. What's happening? Why is... I don't know.

It's just, okay, it's bad. Okay. It's really bad. Especially, like, at one part, it's like a skew. In the film's one. In the film version, yes. Yeah. Just after this tour, I think, or during, Christopher Chaconney's book, Life with My Sister

Madonna comes out. I did read it when I came out. Madonna didn't like it. Why would she? She was quite mad. I think that effectively ended their friendship. But they reconciled before his death, I believe. Yes, I do believe because, I mean, of course, right?

It's a fun read. I don't know if I'm allowed to say that, but it's... There's a lot of tea. You know, look, you have to, like, triangulate everything, knowing that everyone's living their own story. Everyone's the main character around their own story. Everyone's understanding things through their own. own prism and then you kind of just be like, okay, you know, this is more his story of what she was to him and his life than it is like fact-based.

Yes, but you do get a sense of what a critical role he played a lot of creative, creatively. Which I think he deserves a lot of credit for personally. Yes. I think he was amazing. In the midst of the tour also Madonna announces her divorce from Guy Ritchie. Not a surprise. Not a surprise.

And also, again, I don't want to speculate on people's personal lives, but obviously I'm just about to do it right now. It seems like perhaps the adoption needed to be finalized of David Banda and then we could divorce, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So according to a statement, this I thought was very interesting, according to a statement from Liz Rosenberg, he walked away with $92 million of her money, which was, I guess, the most any man. had ever received in a divorce settlement from a woman. Fuck that man. Proud badge of honor for you, Guy Ritchie. Mr. Mr. I'm the man's man.

Also, I think he, like, pretty explicitly said in the beginning of their marriage that he would never take a dollar from her. He was like, I won't take a dollar. I will take only $92 million. Yeah. But this led to one of my favorite Madonna quotes of all time, which is apparently joking about the settlement years later, she said, if I think about it for even five seconds, it's more than I can take.

Did he deserve $100 million for putting up with me? Hell, if I thought he was going to get that much, I would have been a much bigger bitch, much bigger. That's my queen. Amazing. That's my fucking queen. So they share custody of Rocco and David. Obviously, Lordus is Madonna's daughter, so.

And then, unfortunately, their divorce put the adoption of Mercy, which was still pending a bit in jeopardy, but it ends up getting, it's fine. Mercy, my favorite of the non-da children. Interesting, how come? There's like a quiet intelligence to her. Okay, okay. I love them all equally. Okay.

No, I just, I don't have a favorite. And she played piano on the celebration tour, which now you're going to say, you didn't know because I didn't take you. I didn't have to say it just you said it for me. She did a 2017 interview with Roxanne Gay for Bazaar. It was a different time. Yeah. And she said, that is one of the arguments I would get into with my ex-husband.

used to say to me, but why do you have to go do this again? Why do you have to make another record? Why do you have to go on tour? Why do you have to make a movie? And I'm like, why don't have to explain myself. I feel like that's a very sexist thing to say. Does somebody ask Steven Spielberg why he's still making movies? Hasn't he had enough success? Hasn't he made enough money? Hasn't he made a name for himself? Did somebody go to Pablo Picasso and say, okay, you're 80 years old. Haven't you painted enough paintings? She's making points. Yes. No, and I'm tired of that question. I just don't understand it. I'll stop doing everything I do when I don't want to do it anymore.

I'll stop when I run out of ideas. I'll stop when you fucking kill me. How about that? Don't tell her to stop, period. Don't tell her to stop. Don't tell anyone to stop. She also told the son in 2015, I did sometimes find myself in a state of conflict. There were times where I wanted to express myself as an artist in ways that I don't think my ex-husband was comfortable with.

There were times I felt incarcerated. I really wasn't allowed to be myself. Happens to the best of us. Even Madonna, babe. Even Madonna. All right. In December of 2008, she goes to shoot a two-day photo shoot with Stephen Klein in Rio for W. Magazine. She's 50. She's radiant. She's stunning. She's gorgeous. She's gorgeous young men,

including one especially a gorgeous 22-year-old named Jesus Luz. I forgot about him. One of my top Madonna boyfriends. Tony Ward and Jesus Luz are right here for me. He was an aspiring DJ who had also studied Kabbalah for two years prior to their meeting. Very compatible. God is good. You know?

She said later to a tabloid, once you reach a certain age, you're not allowed to be adventurous. You're not allowed to be sexual. I mean, is there a rule? Are you supposed to die? Go off. Again, good quotes, yeah. We don't put out music for a while. Yeah.

2009, she works on her first, I guess, her second directorial film, because Filth and Wisdom, which no one has seen. But the next one is W.E. Oh, yeah. So that's what she's doing for most of 2009. She also puts out the greatest hits album, the third one, Celebration. I actually like the song Celebration. I don't have any thoughts about celebration. It's like, you know, B-minus Holiday.

Yeah, so we have a holiday at home. But it's good, it's fine. The video is kind of fun. It's directed by Jonas Ackerland and has Madonna dancing and posing provocatively and Lordus is in it and says, Jesus lives so hot. Jesus lives is so hot. I like Revolver featuring Lowell-Wain. I had forgotten about it.

I like it. I don't know that I like it. I'm a little way in, and I think it's a fun song. I'm glad Cherish made it on here because I have an ongoing debate with many people about Cherish. Cherish is a fucking good song. Pro Cherish, and I recently met someone named Terish named after the song. All right. In 2010, so you guys remember, she's out of her Warner Brothers contract now.

She signs with Interscope. This wasn't the Live Nation 360 thing? Yes, I missed that. It was right before the Sticking and Sweet Tour. So she signs Live Nation, but not for music. It's a 360 deal, $120 million for 10 years, plus a $17.5 million signing bonus. She's just making back that guy Ritchie money. She was like, oh, really, bitch, don't worry, I made it in space.

This is for, but this is 360 touring merch, right? Yeah, but not music. Yes. Music, she signs within her scope. And then she took to her Facebook page, her official artist Facebook page announced, it's official. I need to move. I need to sweat.

I need to make new music, music I can dance to. I'm on the lookout for the maddest, sickest, most badass people to collaborate with. You don't find that cringe? Hello? As a 44-year-old woman who absolutely uses slang that is not appropriate to my age because I'm so chronically and terminally online, I can relate. I mean, but relate, but isn't it a tad cringe? Yes, when both of us do it, it's cringe. But as I've said about myself, and I will apply to Madonna, we are cringe, but we are free.

I don't know why she posted that because obviously she's not going to, like, go on Craigslist and get producers. But it was a fun announcement. So she reconnected with William Orbit, which she had already, I think, not even related to this album. Guy who Siri had basically been like, okay, I'm glad you're making this movie, but you need to put a song in it. And just like, I don't want to thought, I'm busy. I'm an autore. And he was like, you need to put a song in it. And he pushed her and pushed her until she teamed up with William Orbit, who brought in some songwriters, and they did masterpiece, which I fucking love.

I love that song. And it's in the closing credits of W.E. A movie that is uneven. But cool. And I'm glad she did it. It's visually at moments, very captivating. She also recruits then, so she has William Orbit on deck and has, you know, started working. Three Europeans.

So we're leaving America again. Italian DJ Benny Benasie, who had won a Grammy for the best remixed recording of Public Enemies, Bring the Noise, the Pumpkin remix. and he had opened for her on the Sticking Suite tour in Rome. And he did a remix of celebration. His cousin Alessandro Benassi and the French producer Martin Solvig. W.E. premiered at con. Can. When was that?

2011. Okay. That's the next year. Didn't get great reviews. All right. February of 2012. You already know we have an album coming because we're doing the Super Bowl. by we, I mean Madonna.

Because you know the last time a woman had headlined the Super Bowl prior to this was 1996? That's absurd. So she tasked B. Ackerlund, who's Jonas Ackrelin's wife. By the way, it might be Yonis, and I'm so sorry for my cultural insensivity, but I'm just going to keep saying Jonas because I've said it for three episodes. He can't stop now. Can't stop now.

So she was tasked with the costuming of 100 drumline performers, 150 gladiators, and 200 hundred choir members. In addition to Madonna's guest artists, LMFAO, Nikki Minaj, MIA, and Ciloch Green. It was 2012. Only one of those acts has not been canceled. And it's LMFAO.

And it's LMFAO. That is correct. 100% rate. Listen, I kind of ride for LMFA. I'm not going to lie. When I was kind of revisiting, I was like, that shit was fun.

I recalled it being cringy, and then when I rewatched it, the part that was cringy was the guy balancing with a loot on the string. I didn't understand what was happening. I was like, is he? I thought he was LMFA for a second. And then I saw them over on the side.

And I was like, oh, they're fine. They were just, they were party rocking. What are you going to do? They were party rocking in the house tonight. Everybody was having a good time. Yeah. They're rich as hell babe, and they mind their own business and keep their noses clean. And I have nothing more respect for them.

I kind of forgot how big those songs were. Massive. She did not need to do I'm sexy and I know it with them and do the little like shuffle. It was a little bit of a bummer to work. watch her do that. But then, you know, I mean, it was for a pop spectacle of that order on the Super Bowl field, like she had like a million of those gladiators. It was mega. By the way, she arrived on a throne. I just want to point that out. You know, I hope this is what the Odyssey looks like, Christopher Nolan's film. I hope it's taking some strong visual inspiration from

Madonna's 2012 Super Bowl performance. That would be a film that I would then see. Just before the game, the first single from MDNA had come out. Give me all your loving. I like it. Okay. We'll come back to it. The Vogue performance in the Super Bowl is fabuloso. It is. It is gorgeous. I live. I think it's one of the best Vogue performances, live ones. It is. And it's got like sort of like the magazine font on the floor. You've got the overhead shot and stuff. It's really good. And I don't hate the LMFA or Cilo bits. No. Sealo does like a prayer. Makes total sense. Yeah. Yeah.

She told Howard Stern that she was so nervous before and during the performance that she collapsed in the bathroom when it was over. She said, I laid down on the floor and cried because I got through it and I knew everything went off without a hitch. It's hard to imagine her getting nervous for anything. I know. That's kind of crazy. One incongruous, but a little bit bizarre thing. Do you remember at the very end she, like, gets sucked out of the stage? And then they show the overhead from the stadium.

It just says, world peace. Well, yeah. That reminds me of when I went and saw you two at the sphere to do Octum Baby, and there was like a whole part where they're just like flashing words on the screen that's like feminist. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Black Lives Matter. People just, they're just saying words.

I'm just saying words. Everything didn't go off without a hitch, though. Oh, no, it didn't. But she didn't know that yet. She didn't know that yet. Yeah. MIA and Nikki Minaj, who were obviously there to perform the song with her head flipped off the audience. Just MIA.

Just MIA. Yeah. Nikki was fine. Nikki was minding her own business. She wasn't, she hadn't. She actually looks great in that performance. It's like peak Nikki. Peak Nikki.

Honestly, MIA looks amazing too. She does. And they're both in little gladiator outfits with like their first initial on the crotch. It's very cute. It's not bad. 222 of the 114 million people who watched the Super Bowl called the FCC to complain about MIA flipping them. Because she showed her fucking middle finger. Yeah.

And the NFL was like, no problem. We'll find her 17 million. dollars. Except she's M.I.A. and she doesn't have a dime. I mean, I would imagine. I don't know paper planes money. A little money. Yeah. Madonna was not happy about this because something had happened that was unplanned. Yeah, that she doesn't like that. No. And like controversial, but not in a way that she would want it to be. Yeah. She told Ryan Seacrest. I was really surprised. I didn't know anything about it. I wasn't happy about it. I understand it's punk rock and everything. But to me, there's such a feeling of love and good energy and positivity and world peace. It seemed negative. It's such a teenager or a

relevant thing to do. What was the point? It was just out of place. I mean, yeah, but it was on the lyric, I don't give a shit. Yeah. So it wasn't like, you know, it wasn't like a kiddie show. But you're right. It was censored. She said, I don't give a sh. Yeah. But she flips the bird. Come on, M. I.A. You're right that M.A. didn't maybe have money and she didn't end up paying this. There was some undisclosed settlement. She had not yet made her money from her tinfoil hat clothing line. Oh, God. Amaya did point out something, again, a good point, that there was a quarterback who flipped the bird. on TV and he only got fined $12,000.

And she was like, that's interesting. It is. And this leads us into MDNA, March 23, 2012, produced by the aforementioned Benasi Brothers, the Demolition Crew, Michael Mali, Hardy, Indigo, Mwanza, William Orbit and Martin Solvig. Lots of collaborators on this one, not just producers, writers.

someone pointed out that Ray of Light had 26 people credited on it and this one has 92. Yeah. Which is quite common in pop music now. Okay, so this is like her foray into contemporary pop hit making where every song has like eight or nine writers and producers. And it does make the music a little more anonymous. It is a little bit of a, there are some issues with this record, but I actually do like it on balance. Evidently, I gave it a seven out of ten. Okay.

You know who didn't like it that much? Uh-oh. William Orbit. Well, he said later, if it was up to me to executive produce an overview the whole process of Madonna's MDNA, I do feel like I could have done an absolutely exceptional job. Something as powerful as Ray of Light, but I guess I don't have the ability to inspire this kind of managerial level of confidence. On MDNA, it's important to say that I jumped on the project later. She had already started it. She had a lot of stuff going on.

I honestly don't know how any human being could cope with making an album directing and preemptive. producing a movie, launching products, and everything that comes with just being her. Anyway, we were just not really able to lock the door and everybody out for MDNA, which, as we pointed out, is kind of the best way to make music if you're Madonna. She was having such a great time at first, but it somehow became very complex for everybody. I would have mixed it myself if I could, or only together with Madonna in front of the mixing decks because she's a great mixer. We have spirited debates about things, but we always end up in the same direction.

I would have dropped three of the six tracks that she had already made with the other guys. They were not good enough, in my opinion. Too puerile. I like that he's talking real shit. Yeah, he was quite honest about this. I thought that was kind of interesting. I don't disagree with him on maybe that some of the tracks could be stronger and some could be excised. Also, something I just absolutely loved when I learned is that he said he showed Madonna.

You see, they didn't listen to any contemporary music while making this album, except that he showed Madonna that. the recently released Craychon song, Gucci, Gucci. Now we're really of a moment. I'm putting you, we're putting us in. Because it had the lyric, Gucci, Gucci, Louis, Fendi, Fendi, Prada. I'm looking like Madonna, but I'm flossing like Ivana. MIA apparently came up with an album title, MDNA, which has multiple meanings. I like MDMA, like Madonna.

Also like mitochondrial DNA. I hadn't thought of that one. It only is transferred from the mother to the child. Did you do scientific research for this? A little bit. We do all kinds of research in this house. The artwork, it's, again, for me, like, with hard candy where, like, I love aspects of it. And part of it, I'm like, I don't know about this.

The photo is shot by Merton Marcus. I like the photo. Photos is great. Directed by Giovanni Bianco. And I like the kind of obscuring, as if looking through, like, panels of glass. But it's the typeface that I don't really understand. because it's also in that vein. So you kind of gets lost a little bit, you know.

I love the colors, though. It's a striking album, cover. I like the cover. Would you agree that this is a very divorced album? Yes. Exceptionally divorced album. Which is great. I love that.

I love that we're mining, like we're really like putting it on Front Street, like how we're feeling about this relationship and divorce. Oh, yeah. And like I had forgotten some of this, like what she was going through. So I had not obviously revisited my own. review of this album in quite some time. Apparently, I said she was staring down a unique triad of crappitude.

Oh, wow. Look at you. Not bad, 2012, me, right? Fucking Yates over here. Not bad. Writing for spin. A little looser. Public divorce.

There was shit going on with her schools in Africa. Yeah. Poorly reviewed film. And Lady Gaga had arrived and was kind of biting her shit. Yeah. And I was like, she was sort of like, where do I fit in? And I think this is like a little, this is like a maybe a little bit of a little panicky of an album. When does

Born This Way come out later than this? No, before. Right, okay. 2011. Okay, so yeah. And obviously, for my part, when I heard Alessandro, Alejandro, I was like... Oh, my God. Alessoroh, one of, I mean, God tier, one of the best pop songs ever made. Sure, but we, it's a little we have Lice La Bonita at home. I know, I know, I know, but... It's a great song. It's a great song.

Yeah. And I'm, I love Lady Gaga. I'm not here to choose science. No, no, it's all good. It's fair. One of my most wonderful experiences was the Monster Ball Tour with my mother in which I did wrap Diet Coke cans in my hair. Oh, my God. But I mean, literally, Madonna walked here so she could run. We all know this. But I think at this point in Madonna's career, she didn't have like a – the album before was not a hit. Yeah.

The tour was huge, obviously. It was record-breaking once again. But, like, you know, she's kind of like, where do I fit into this stuff? And then we end up with MDNA. Yeah. I love Girl Gone Wild. I love Girl Gone Wild. I listened to on the way over.

I was like, I forgot how good this is. Girls, they just want to have some fun. This one's written by Madonna, Jensen Vaughn, and the Benassi brothers. I think the song, the opening, which is like the spoken God. Yes. Oh, my God. And it's a reference to active contrition, right? Yes.

Love active contrition. I love when Madonna says God. Honestly, that's one of my absolute favorite example. I'm hardly sorry for him. And I detest all my sins. It's a good song It is, it is It bangs

It was the second single Which I kind of low-key Think it should have been the first single Did you remember the beef She had with 50 Cent At this time? I didn't I was reminded when I was reading it

This made me laugh I guess 50 Cent was mad At Interscope Because of something They had leaked Some album artwork of his It was like the same name or something But yeah

And then he's like These people are gonna make me kill one of them Now Madonna's single Is called Girls Gone Wild This is some bullshit Because I guess his song was called Girls Gone Wild The first of all right is called Girl Gone Wild, singular.

I also think what's his name, The Girl's Gone Wild guy? Yeah, yeah. Try to sue her. Joe? It was Joe. No, he didn't try to sue her, but he did try to block her from performing it at the Super Bowl, and she didn't perform her on the Super Bowl. So I don't know if it was because he said so or probably not, but I love the video.

I do too. Directed by Martin Marcus, it features this Ukrainian synth pop band called Kazaki, who actually, if you can go watch, I can't remember the name of the song. I'm sorry, I didn't write down, but they made a video just like this. And that's why they're in the video. Yeah. YouTube thought this video was really provocative. Did they censor her?

Apparently they made it available only to people over 18. It's not that crazy. What it feels like for a girl was not crazy either when MTV banned it. I mean, I made absolutely no sense. Gang bang. I don't mind that either. I don't either, actually. It's written by Madonna and William Orbit with Mika, Priscilla Hamilton, Keith Harris, Jean-Pubteist,

Don Juan Demo Casanova I'm sorry I got some of these names wrong which were so many and I was like copying and pasting

there were a lot of names on this one the song also has just so you're 100% certain as 2012 it has a dubstep

wobble drop in it yeah she was like I like Spilix too but you know what it doesn't it does no harm it does no harm I like that

she said she cited that Quentin Tarantino was an inspiration for this song which is a very full circle moment because if you guys remember from episode one,

the opening of the first film of Quentin Tarantino Reservoir Dogs starts with the words, let me tell you what like a virgin's about. I didn't remember them. Oh, so it's Quentin Tarantino at the table telling them what like a verdon's about. She had actually wanted him to direct the video, but I guess when he was asked about it, he said,

I don't know, I've been asked to direct commercials and music videos. Madonna and Jay-Z asked me, but I refuse I'm not interested. I'm just not as interested. I was like, well, I could see them clashing. Yeah, yeah, totally. My thought on this, and just stay with me, stick with me. Had we dropped a little of the dubstep, produced it maybe like a little differently.

It's giving to me like murder ballad in the PJ Harvey style, which I love. 100%. Right? Yes, I'm with you. That's what I like about it. It's like Nick KVy PJ Harvey murder ballad. Yes. Super dark.

Yeah. Grindy. It's great. Narrative. I'm addicted as the next song. I like that. the texture of that synth kind of arpeggiating all over the place. I don't know. I'm into it. I find it engrossing. The bridge that gets like super just sort of like lush. Something happens to me.

When I hear your voice, something happens to me. I have no choice. And it's like do, do, do, do, do, do. It's like a club moment. Yeah. Okay. I thought I actually really like this one. Okay. I feel like it, this is like the really, the only kind of deep club moment on this record. I'm like, I could have, I could have done like five more of these. Turn up the radio. I like this too. And I was not Stockholm syndrome by this record. I was like her little like, it's a beautiful stranger kind of throwback to me. I love beautiful stranger. That is, I mean, one of the best songs in her catalog.

This has like an element of that. It's kind of like a kicky 60s thing a little bit. You know, it's kind of harmless. You know, I would love to turn up the radio. Yeah. I don't know why there's just something about this song that doesn't resonate with me, but I can see why people like it. Okay.

It's not like special, but like, I don't know. I have a soft spot for it. Okay. I'll give it to you. You let's... I'm opening the floor. Give me all your love in featuring M.I.A. and Nikki Minaj. I mean, there's parts of it sounds like a novelty song.

It has that kind of like, oh, Mickey. You know, hey Mickey. Oh, Mickey. Hey, Mickey. Hey, Mickey. Yeah, it has that kind of a vibe to it. I don't know. I kind of like the cheerleadery vibe of it.

Those are aspects in general that I like, but I just don't know why this song, it's not for me. It didn't offend me. I will introduce an idea here that will carry on through further songs. I like her songs with Nikki Minaj. I really do. I like every single one of them. Okay. Obviously, I have, like, complicated feelings about Nikki Minaj now.

She's made some unique choices. Yes. But when she was good, she was good. And I feel like she and Madonna were bizarrely compatible. I remember reading a couple of quotes from Madonna is just like, oh, I love when I get in this studio with Nikki. Like she really wants to hear the song. She wants to know what's about. She wants to really dig into it.

It makes sense. I feel like in some ways there's similar types of artists where, like, they're very disciplined and very, like, controlling and thoughtful and, like, really want to do, like, an excellent and perfect job, you know? Yeah. I mean, just when Nikki was good, you know, like, she's articulate, you know, she's, like literate. There's just interesting word choices and stuff like that. You know, more than one flow. I don't know. I like her. I like her on Madonna songs. This was the first, and I was like, I dig it. I'm glad that you like it. You're like, I'm glad that's good for you. I just feel, listen, I know everyone's afraid to criticize Madonna, but I don't think me and Madonna are ever going to be friends. So I just don't like this song. I am not. I'm not doing this to be friendly with Madonna.

No, I know you're not. You are a pure of heart. I just want to be honest to my experience, which is, you know, music is subjective, and I just don't like this one. I like some girls, too. Karen loves MDA. I can't help it. You know who worked on this song was Robin's Secret Weapon, class. Klaus

Allend Also the original demo sang by B.Rexa. Did you know that? I didn't know that. That's cool. I think you can still hear it somewhere out there.

I don't mind the song. I like it. It's harmless. It's sing-songy. It has that kind of Swedish poppy quality to it. It wasn't in my head. I forgot that Klaus had done it

and I looked it up. I was like, oh yeah. I really want to like superstar. I want to. And I don't understand why it's not happening for me. It's generic. I think there's really not much going on there.

Yeah. I like, you know, I like her songs where she talks about old Hollywood stars. That happens a lot. So you love I Don't Givea featuring Nikki Minaj. I do. Now I've introduced the idea and I'm going to carry it through to the end of the episode, but it's 100% true. This is a very explicit divorce song.

Yeah. Wake up ex-wife. This is your life. I'm going to be okay. I don't care what the people say. Didn't have a pre-up. $92 million. Yep. But she's going to be okay. She already made it back. She made that deal. Yeah. You know, I like the production on that song. It's kind of glitchy. I don't mind it.

I'm a sinner. I kind of like this one, too. I'm sorry. This is going to be us when we get to Madame X where the tables are turned. Oh, yeah, yeah, because I do that. I quite like Madame X. Oh, my God. I really, we'll get there.

This isn't the same camp to me as turn up the radio and give me all your love. And it's kind of like one of those 60s, just like poppy songs. Okay, well, that's an interesting thing. I kind of feel one of my like little secret theories is that maybe she wanted to to make a lot of songs like that on this album and was kind of pulled in a different direction. Not that she could be pulled or whatever. Like pulled between two to different directions.

Because then you get to like masterpiece and falling free. And I don't want to skip Love Spend. We can skip it. Okay. There's an illusion to hung up there. The only reason to talk about Love Spent for me is that randomly one of the writers is Alan White, who is Morrissey's main songwriting partner and guitarist

and has been since 1991. How did they meet? I don't know. I couldn't figure it out. I'm dying to know. That's weird. And what maybe, you know, it's possible that, again, it's hard to find this information, but it's possible that they sampled one of his guitars.

I was wondering about that. And that's why he's accredited writer. So that makes a little more sense than like he got in the stew with William Orbit and Madonna. But I think it's worth pointing out that he's a credited writer on here. The problem with that with Love Spent is that it's trying to like make six songs. in seven genres and it doesn't work. But then I do agree with you.

Masterpiece is great. Masterpiece is wonderful. Written by Madonna, Julie Frost and Jimmy Harry, which were the two people that William Orbit introduced her to when Gaius Siri was like, you need to make a song for this thing. It won Best Original Song of the Golden Globes. I love this song.

It's one of the only Madonna songs in which she spans two octaves, like hitting that upper register, like she does in Ray of Light. And it's thought that William Orbit really likes that. So he's the one that always kind of pushes her to do that. It's really cool.

I wish she had written a whole album of songs like Masterpiece and Falling Free. I really like Falling Free, too. I like Falling Free, too. It's kind of like dreamy. It has synth, but it's like piano and violin. It's just, I like, I'm only speculating. But I'm like it almost feels like she wanted to make these kinds of songs. Or maybe like, maybe not wanted to, but was more attuned to making these kinds of songs.

Because to me, these are the highlights of the album. They are. And I'm like, why are you sticking them all at the end? because they don't fit in with the like, they don't. You know, MDMA club, Mickey Minaj, MIA theme of the album. True. I think falling free is just like a really vulnerable moment that you're not finding anywhere else on this record.

It's one of those sorrowful songs on this record. It's so open. Yeah, exactly. It's, yeah, it's really beautiful. Then there are some songs on the deluxe in which you say. you don't fuck with deluxe. Not really. I love birthday song.

I know this is a bizarre take. Birthday song. It's kind of like what you were saying about one of the other songs. I can't remember which one. To me, this is the hey, make. This is like a new wavy, punky, the headcoatsy, kind of like simple, cute song. And it's just catchy and I love it with MIA. I think it's nice.

I also like I fucked up a lot. I think it could have been produced a little differently. Yeah. But it's also like really also vulnerable and honest. And I love the lyrics. And I don't know. To me, these two songs are better than some of the other songs. No, no, I agree.

And I'll bring a beautiful killer just to mention that they name check Alon Dilan on this because her and Martin Solvig were like really into French films and La Samurai and stuff. Best friend also, again, not my favorite song, but I think the lyrics are incredible. I don't remember. She's like, I miss your brain the way you think, but I don't miss the way you used to drink. I miss our talk. She's really, really honest here, you know, about her marriage and about, you know, there's a part where she says, maybe I challenge you a little too much.

We couldn't have two drivers on the clutch. Or as Patrick would say, you can't have two miss piggies in a relationship. That'll be karate. That's my thoughts on those bonus tracks. Yeah, MDNA. Listen, has some high points. I love how vulnerable she is. some of it. She's dealing with a lot.

She's dealing with a lot. She's all over the place. She's spread thin, as William Orbit said. Yeah. It's interesting. After going through and talking about all the songs, I think what he said is true. Like, he could have brought a coherence to it if he had just rearranged some things. And in fairness, he disses himself to. I left that part off the quote

where he says, I would have also wanted to go back and, like, strengthen my songs. It did okay. I mean, it charted at number one. Remember bundling? Yes. Yeah. So this sold its most in the first week, $350,000, which was actually more than she had the last several albums. Because it was like with tickets.

Because it was bundled. Yeah. By the end of the year, it only sold 2 million copies. Again, no one's really buying CDs at this time, so it's kind of a hard metric. But it was not a commercial success. No. Highest grossing tour of the year, again, $300 million this time. Ariane Phillips, the queen, doing the costumes.

More Gautier, more costumes just by. by Ariane Phillips, plus some from Jeremy Scott, Alexander Wang, Dulcangabana created the suits for the band. Prada did the high-heeled boots for the male dancers to wear during Vogue. A lot of good fashion. All her children are at work. Lourdes is working in the costume department. Rocco is dancing on stage. David and Mercer were with her, but with nannies.

One notable thing about this, and then I want to hear the full Karen Gans breakdown, is that there's a few dates in Russia. Another thing to put us in a place in time. They were just after the Pussy Riot. Oh, yeah. Protests and arrests. And she spoke up for them at the Moscow show. And then during her St. Petersburg show, the city had passed a law that banned the promotion of non-traditional sexual relations. She had received death threats.

But she spoke out against that legislation from stage. She passed out pink armbands and rainbow flags for the crowd to, like, really, like, support and race solidarity. And actually 87 people were arrested after. I didn't know that. For showing support of gay rights. and also three Russian groups sued her for $10 million for damaging morals. Madonna's still doing her Madonna thing. Yep.

Yeah. Okay, tell me about Karen Gans' experience. I have less to say about this tour. I don't know why. Are you going to talk about the express yourself? I am, of course, yeah, yeah. Let's go. This is literally the only moment that I noted.

So we did note moments ago that Lady Gaga's born this way had come out, and there was a bit of a controversy about whether it sounded too much, like express yourself. So Madonna. It does sound a bit like express yourself. It does. And it was also like, why did nobody notice this before? Like, how could you get through the entire process?

Somebody must have noticed. Yeah. I would like to think that somebody noticed, but like, did you think that it wasn't going to be a thing? Right. They wanted to be a thing. I don't know what the thinking was. But Madonna, bless her, mashes them up and even adds a dash of she's not me. It's so shady.

And it was so fun live. I remember being like, I can't believe this is happening. this is so shady. I love her. And it sounded great. And you can sing it directly right over it. It works perfectly. Yeah. And she was like, interesting how it works perfectly. Yeah. But this is like a boss bitch move. I loved it. Like I'm going to take you out on stage in front of millions of people. Liz Rosenberg, God bless. Icon. Came out to, you know, she was asked about it and she was like, whether it's an homage or a smack in the face or just being funny, I don't know. People can decide what it means. Madonna isn't one to explain herself. God bless. Really, Liz Rosenberg, one of one. What a job.

It does not get better than that. Yeah. That was really fucking cool. Yeah. The thing, and we've kind of talked about it throughout, but I think it's worth mentioning. And if you haven't watched all of these tours, you need to watch them. They are incredible. What Madonna and her team do with these tours, how thought out they are, how incredibly every piece goes together, how it's one work of art.

even though it's containing all songs from different eras, she makes it into the most cohesive experience. And I think that's so cool. And the video segments are like so high-end and so well-produced. And, you know, fans were always bitching. Like, I came here to hear into the group. It's like, she's not going to do that. She is touring the album.

She's still making new music. She will give you versions of old songs in ways that you might not like. I've never been to one of these Madonna Tours without hearing, like, a middle-aged person, I am now, next to me being like, oh, there's all these new songs, whatever. It's like, she's not the Eagles bit, you know? You've come to see? This is the whole entire point.

But yeah, just again, you were saying before about her being an athlete, just the level of athleticism that is involved, but just all the singing and dancing, the costume changes, the acrobatics, the stage design, all of it. You know, her little fingerprints on every piece of it. I know. It's incredible. Still really at her peak, this and the next tour.

Yeah, and she looks fab. Amazing. In 2013, Forbes ranks Madonna, the high. paid musician in the world and number five in their list of most powerful celebrities did you watch

Secret Project Revolution the Stephen Klein film? No. It's kind of cool. It's cool. I should go back to that. Yeah, it's cool. At the New York premiere

of Secret Project Revolution, this is really important to me and for the bands-planned audience, Madonna sang the Elliot Smith song between the bars. Oh, I mean, that's very important to me as well.

While a dancer in a balaclava spun behind her, Pussy, right? Were you there? No. No, that's really, don't worry. There's a YouTube.

video. This is the one thing I missed. I was like the biggest Elliott Smith fan. I still am, obviously. Oh, interesting. I found out he died when I was at Roseland seeing Interpol. God. It really puts her finger on a moment, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I loved that she did that. I thought that was, you know, you think. Just proves her taste. Exactly. All right, 2014 in February. She's joined on stage by the two newly freed members of Pussy Riot, Maria Alokina and Nadia Tolokonikon. Kovah on stage at an amnesty international sponsored event called Bringing Human Rights Home on the E of the Sochi Olympics. She's still supporting.

Yeah. She's still supporting human rights, rights to protest, pussy riot. You guys don't remember how big pussy riot was for a second there. Oh, huge. The ball of clavas were everywhere. Even I believe I put on a Pussy Riot benefit at the smell. And if I'm correct. Wow.

And you guys need to, I'm almost positive high and performed. They were. It's believable. It's 2012. So they hadn't, you know, they weren't... They weren't... I don't even think they've put out their first album yet. Okay, so now it's time to start thinking about her new album

because she has a three album deal with Interscope and they're like TikTok. So Guy O'Series like, well, what if you work with Tim Burling, 24 years old, also known as Avici, who had risen to prominence in 2011 with his single levels? One of the best songs ever created. I'm sorry, I'll say it. That song is fucking God-tier. He's great. And you know what?

Whenever wake me up when it's all over comes on, I will be slapping my fucking knee and living my life. And I don't care what anyone says. I told my roommate who's like 10 years younger me, she was like horrified. And I was like... It was a moment though. You're wrong, honey. We all did it.

It's a good song. It holds up the test of time. It's like Mumford Hop. And I love... It's famously I love the Lemonaires and Mumford and Son. So it really brought together some... Anyways, he's fucking killing it. Madonna had worked with him actually prior to this.

in Miami at the Ultra Music Festival. He had remixed Girl Gone Wild, and then he had opened the L.A. shows on the MD&A tour. This is really when we get into, like, songwriting camp writing of an album. There are a lot of names. Avici would work with groups of songwriters. And I guess you correct me if I'm wrong,

but I think it's like the idea was like some introspective songs, some bops. We were going for Rebel and Heart. Yes. And Madonna was, like, going between these two songwriting groups to, like, put in her ideas. However, I don't know if this – okay, I want to ask you, because you might know better since you were covering this beat at the time. In the Mary Gabriel book, she says the reason that the Avici of it all was toned down or pulled back was because he got very sick. I don't know if that is the reason, but, you know, he – poor Evici, you know, he really struggled.

And this was the era of like the superstar DJ Globetrotting, playing everywhere, Vegas Residencies. And it was like, all the drugs and alcohol were a lot for him. If you haven't seen the documentary, it's really good and really sad. I mean, they basically, from what I understand, it's like, the management was like, I'm sorry, you have to be on tour 360 days a year. And he was like, well, I'm going to die. Yeah. I mean, and he did.

And it was really, really tragic. So I think he pulled back because he was not well. Yeah. And yeah, I think he had some, he was having some drug problems. Anyways, to me, this is the most Tragique. Besides, obviously, it's my rest and peace, because I love the Avisi parts of this album. Yes, I'd been a full-ass-Avici album, but it's not.

So what you're saying is you don't like the Diplo parts of the album? I think you should go to prison. Okay, let's move on. She does turn to Diplo. Yes. Wesley Pence. Who is, you know, at a peak of his own at this time. He was also too busy because, you know, Vegas.

residency, making money, to sit with Madonna in the style that she was accustomed to. So she, quote, had to catch him on the fly and try and create in the moment. Madonna told Karen Gans, you know when you meet somebody and you work with them and you recognize that you both look at life the same way? I'm one of those people. I travel the world also and I engage in other cultures. And I absorb and see the beauty in other cultures from many different perspectives through art, through literature, through music, and reference a lot of those things that inspire me

through my work. And I think Dipload does the same thing. So we recognize Kind of Spirit. I don't know what his baby loves. She was just explaining. It's like this Spider-Man meme with a cultural appropriation. I know. They're not, I don't think it is, but it's very funny because they were both kind of like,

oh, hold my beer. They were curious. They were curious. They were easily inspired. Yeah. But because Dipl is so busy, you know, globetrotting. Yeah. She got even more collaborators.

She told Cosmo, magazine. The whole writing process was like a train that kept running. I kept picking people up. Some stayed on the train longer than others. We're living in an age when these DJs and producers are working with lots of artists. So I was going crazy thinking, can't I just have you for a whole week? Why do I just get you for two days? There was a constant battle and it drove me bonkers. I could see that. I can hear it too. I like Rebel Heart. We're going to get into it. Okay. I think there's, I'm like, I'm just imagining what could have been. In December of 2014, so this is a pivotal time.

Yeah. Because this is when I first physically cross paths with Madonna. Oh, yeah, because we just read your interview quote. That was after the leak, obviously. So this is, I have Liz Rosenberg emails in my Google Doc. I stopped. Saved dead. So I was at Rolling Stone then.

And December 10th, a handful of us went to hear a few of these songs at Jungle Studios, which is Alicia Keys' studio on the west side. And no one told me anything other than like, you're going to go hear a couple of songs. I'm like, okay, so we go, we sit down. They played us like two or three versions of Living for Love. And they're like, which ones do you like? And, you know, we're going to play two or three other songs. I'm taking notes on my little pad.

Yeah. And then somebody, I think it was Liz, goes, cool, she'll be here in five. So you weren't even prepared. So no one told me she was coming. It was like a surprise. Bless my colleagues. They knew that I was going to lose my mind. So I was just like, I don't even know what you do.

You're like hyperventility. No, I was like legitimately freaking out. I was like, I don't know what that. I mean, there are other people there from other magazines, too. They were like eight people. Is there anyone we know? There was someone from Spin. I cannot remember who it was.

I apologize. And like maybe somebody from Billboard. Got it. And she just like entered. And she like shook everyone's hand. And she was like, which version of living for love do you like? And I was like, duh, the housey one. Obviously, the right choice.

Yeah. And she like, she chatted for a few minutes. She left. And then like literally November, December 19th. It's a lot of detail, but I'm telling you that's worth it. I was at a Jay Giles band. Bob Seeger show. I just want, again, back to my former statement, Karen Gans will go and see music.

Is it Jay Giles? Yes. Is it whoever is playing, Karen Gans is going to slam back a martini and be in that audience? The reason I was at the show was that I had recently returned to Rolling Stone and Jan Wenner was walking the aisle looking for somebody to come with him and everyone said no. And he got to my office and I was like, I have to say yes. Like I just started working here again. So I was like, Cheryl will come.

He apparently had seats at MSG. He's like, just go meet me at my seats. Somebody came and brought me a glass of champagne when I sent down. Okay, I would go that way to. You're right. I take it back. So I'm sitting there at the show. 10.31 p.m.

I get an email from Liz Rosenberg. And I'm, I mean, because I... That's how entranced you were by Jake Giles band that you were like... I was looking at my phone constantly. And they were opening for Bob Seager. I'm not a huge fan. Hi, Karen. Sorry to bother you on the weekend.

I don't think it was the weekend. But due to the leaking of the early demos, of Madonna's new album, we're considering releasing some songs via pre-order. This is tentative and confidential. If it happens, I would like Madonna to speak with you. And I was like, they handpicked you. Well, I was just like, this is ridiculous. So I remember I was like, what?

Then the next day, December 20th, Liz Rosenberg email, would you like to speak to Madonna tomorrow at approximately 1230 for 15 minutes about the new music? I have a feeling I know the answer. She fucking clocked your ass right there. She was like, but if you were like, no, I'm busy, I'm sorry. Sorry. So this was the first time I ever interviewed Madonna, and it was just about the six songs that were, like, leaked basically. That was, that's the one that quote I read.

Yeah. So I basically milked. I mean, every single thing she said to me went into that interview. And it was just like extremely exciting. It's so cool. I thought, okay, so this ties into what happened because it's interesting that you say this. This is not a normal behavior, but Madonna was so furious and so upset and so violated. Yes.

Because the songs that leaked were not finished. No. They were, like, in various states of, you know, being done. And so her solution was, like, I'm just going to release six of them before Christmas. Which that was, like, not a common thing to do. No, and they had to get the music to iTunes. It was apparently like a whole. Yeah, the guy was going on vacation for Christmas break or whatever.

Yeah. Guy O'Siri was like, we had to make it. I mean, I could imagine Madonna was freaking out. They had to make it happen. And it did. And apparently that six song album hit number one in 41 countries. Yeah. In January, they did arrest that hacker.

He was in Tel Aviv, Adelaunderbin. He had access to Madonna's staff emails for years. That's crazy. Yeah. But then they released the whole thing, which is, I guess, when we will acknowledge the release of the album. Yeah. This, I mean, ultimately, this was a mistake. You know, I feel...

You think to pre-release. Yeah. I think that, like, this was not... It was not representative of the whole album that gave people a false idea of what it was all going to sound like. I think that she's been way too reactive to these least. leaks and stuff. I don't know if you discussed this during American life, but file sharing was so big then, so she, like, populated

a bunch of, like, fake songs that said, like, just kind of amazing. What the fuck do you think you're doing? It's kind of amazing. But then that hacker, who, like, took that and hacked her whole website and then put this is what the fuck I think I'm doing. Tusha. I know. I mean, also kind of epic. But, like, she, I just feel like she's,

obviously, we know she's into control, she's into dominance. She clearly wants to be in charge of how this music gets out and who gets what and what it sounds like. But I feel like this was just like a snap decision that she probably should have made. Also, don't forget, she described this as artistic rape and terrorism. That did not go over well either. There are a lot of like actual terrible things happening in the world. Obviously, having your art stolen is not great, but poor choice of words. I do think that people go too hard in the relativism pain. Like, okay, yes, there's always going to be a worse thing happening to a worse person. Like, it doesn't mean someone

can't feel away. I know. But, you know, because everything she says is blown out of proportion. Yeah. You know, so of course it was. But, yeah. So those songs arrived. I feel for her because I do, again, she spent most of her career with this not being a going concern at all. Yeah. And then all of a sudden. And it is fucking, it's invasive to know that someone's spying on your shit.

And taking your things that, like, that you've worked really hard on. Like, what if they released Bansplayed episodes before they were done? Artistic rape. Okay. Let's get into Rebel Heart. Okay. In full. Just a few cooks in the kitchen, like we mentioned.

Just a couple of... Just a few... Raditudes and writers. I've been here. She said, everyone I worked with is tremendously talented. There's no question. It's just everybody I worked with also had agreed to work with 5,000 other people.

I just had to get in where I could fit in. I know. Bitch, you're Madonna. To paraphrase. Literally. I was like, this is not. Toby Gad is one of the main songwriters on here, and he wrote, if I were a boy for Beyonce in 2008.

I think that's what kind of capital... Yeah. catapulted him into. She also said, I never leave the room. Sometimes I think that makes them mad. Like, don't you have to go to the bathroom? Don't you have somewhere to go? Don't you want to go make some calls?

But Madonna famously is a very hands-on. It's another reason which I fell into a full Reddit K-hole about your former employer's incendiary list of the top songwriters, which I'm not even going to engage with that. But these people were like, you left Madonna off. I did not work on the list, and they did leave Madonna off. It's really funny, actually, because I'm not. you don't have to go to it, but just knowing the people that did work on the list,

it's so easy to go through and be like, that's this person, that's this person, that's this person. If Karen had been on, this person would have been on. Yes, Madonna has had a writing credit on my core producing credit on every song since like 1986. Which, I mean, I know all pop singers, so is Beyonce. But it's a different thing with the Beyonce's been. Exactly. And like, she's, it's documented. Yes, so there's what she's writing.

It's not vibing. It's just that she's never cared to like go on the PR campaign. of presenting herself as a songwriter. And Mariah has, and she ended up on the list. Mariah has been very important to me that I'm a writer. They both are. Yeah. I just, I thought that was interesting.

Yeah. She told Karen Gans. This is the best part of the podcast. 15 minute interview. Karen Gans said, this album focuses on two themes, listening to your heart and being a rebel. When you sat down to write where you guided by these ideas above any musical plans. Madonna said, I never sit down and consciously think I want to write a song about a subject.

music leads me to ideas and to where I want to go emotionally. When I first started, I was writing with Avici's team of writers, and they were separated to two different groups. One of them had a much more upbeat approach to songwriting, sonically speaking, and the other team chose darker chords. The music leads me, so I get lost in the sound of the music, and that creates an emotional power. I'll just say when she started saying these things, I was like, holy shit, she's so smart.

I was so blown away. It was the briefest conversation, but she, I mean, I always knew she was smart. It was leveling up. She's incredibly intellectual. I think that it always, I'm always astonished by the blessings that God bestowed upon Madonna. Yeah. Because everything coincided to make the world's perfect pop star. Like, she's so ambitious.

Yep. She has a mother wound. So she needs attention and love, which she's said herself. So I'm not, you know, she is incredibly beautiful. She's incredibly driven. She's all of the things. She can dance. She cares about fashion and presentation.

Totally. Like everything that you need, and she's incredibly, like we said, intellectual and creative, so she's going to push things forward. Audacious, cares about the right social issues, friend of the gays. I mean, it's like, you literally, it's designed from the heavens. Yeah. This album did not hit number one, hit number two, which is kind of interesting. Yeah.

Also mixed reviews, here's Karen's review. I know, I can't believe it. Review by Karen Hans. For many years, Madonna avoided the internet like gluten. I thought that was really funny. It was a world 2015. Yeah, totally. Now it would be seed oils.

It would. Yeah. Okay, I'm not going to read the whole thing. But I liked this passage. Rebel Heart is a long, passionate, self-referential meditation on losing love and finding purpose in chilling times. It's also a chance for the Queen of Pop to floss a bit and reflect on how she painstakingly carved a path.

Others have happily twerk down in the years since her 1983 debut. True. Good stuff, babe. Thank you. That was good stuff. You did point out the unfortunate line Yeezes loves my pussy best. Oh, God. There's some cringe Madonna on this record.

Do you want to go track by track? Yeah, but I want to read your last great line. The album is at its strongest when Madonna shoves everyone to the side and just tells it to us straight. That's what we've been saying. Okay, let's go track by a crack. Living for Love. Written by Madonna Diplow, Maureen McDonald, all over this album, she wrote Recking Ball from Miley Cyrus. Also goes by Mozilla.

Love Reckin Ball. One of the greatest songs of all time. Toby Gad and Ariel Rekstad. Hime. Hime associate. Sky Ferreira. Sky Ferreira, yeah. He's worked with tons of people.

You love... I love it because it's like a housey, you know, there's a house piano. It's a jam. I like how it's a jam breakup song, which we love those. Like, what's the great Kelly Clarkson one? Since you've been gone?

Oh! Heroin. Oh, I mean, it obviously. Pump it in my fucking veins. Anyways, love that kind of. When you do Kelly Clarkson, you have not right. No. Do you not laugh?

I love the... I will be... I am claiming it right now. It's mostly a pearl jam type podcast. I'm aware I did do the breeders with you, yes. You can have Kelly Clarkson. Come by for Kelly. I love it.

Living for love is good. The video is quite cool because she plays a bullfighter, which is sort of an inversion of take a bow. Bullfighting, boxing. She likes like these hyper-masculine pseudo-sport. Yeah. Parkour. You forgot parkour.

I'll point out that that video was directed by French directors Julian Choucard and Camille Hirogian, who had done a video that was very similar in 2014 for Christine and the Queens. Oh. The song St. Claude and Bad don't love that, and so they kind of applied this. I can't believe Devil Pray wasn't a single because that's my favorite song of the actual album tracks. It's a fucking good. I know. It's really, really good. I'm happy that you like it that much.

I really like it. But you really like these Avichi songs. I love the Evichy songs. I love, because they have a lot of heart and soul and like, but they're still bang, you know? It's like such a great. And that was kind of his magic trick, I think. A lot of writers on this song. A lot of writers on this song.

There are a lot of writers. Madonna said about it, it's about how people take drugs to connect to God or to a higher level of consciousness. I keep saying plugging into the Matrix. If you get high, you can do that. Which is why a lot of people drop acid or do drugs because they want to get close. closer to God. But there's going to be a short circuit, and that's the illusion of drugs, because they give you the illusion of getting closer to God, but ultimately they kill you. They destroy you. It's sad when you think about ultimately Avichi's arc.

Obviously, these quotes were given before he passed. Of course, of course. Well, it's funny because, like, if you don't take a time to think about it, and you just take, like, a surface level, like, people could think this song is promoting drug use. Yeah. Because that's kind of what she's saying, right? all. But then she said, no. We can get high and we can get stone and we can sniff glue and we can do Ian. We can drop acid. We can sniff glue is really funny sticking that in there. I know. She's like the message of the song, it's not about the drugs. It's about like togetherness and unity. Yeah. It's about how you actually find God through other people. Yeah. Through love and

connection and world peace. I fucking love Ghost Town, too. Here's a fun fact about... All-time favorite. Ghost Town written by Madonna, Jason Evigan, Sean Douglas, and Evan Bogart, whose brother Joyce used to manage Kiss. I have an Evan Bogart story for you. Do you? Yes.

Via MNDR, who I took to the show. Instead of me. Yes. Heartful. They're very good friends. They've worked together for years. Like five years ago, maybe. I went to a, like, murder mystery dinner in L.A. with him.

He apparently was very into this. Okay. And Amanda M&R was like, we got to go. We brought another one of our friends, baby daddy, from Cesar Sisters. And it was like one of these things where you're running around the house and there was like, you know, clues and stuff. I was hiding under a bed with strangers hiding from like somebody banging on the door. It was fun, actually. It was fun.

It was in some mansion somewhere. You know, I do not know L.A. very well. I know you do. And it was really, it was like absolutely nuts. And then, yeah, at the end, it was like revealed who the killer was. And it was our friend. It was baby daddy. And we went back in the house and they had him at the table.

a ball gag. And I was like, I didn't know him that well at that point. I was like, this is really freaking weird. But that was my night with Evan Bogart. And I did not realize at the time that he had written this song where I would have said something. You would have been like, I didn't talk to you about this. I love Ghost Town. I cried during this, during the show, too. I think it wasn't an every night song. I think it was a surprise where she did

one of the nights I came. That's amazing. But I'm a sucker for one of these. If the world is ending, we're going to be together. And I love these songs. It's just so good. I just, yeah, I love it. I can see, like, so I guess like, Jason Navigant and Sean Douglas had written Jason Derulo's Talk Dirty. And she really liked that. That's why she taxed that with it.

That's completely random. Also, Evan wrote Halo with Beyonce. Kind of a big song. Yeah. Yeah, a big song. Yeah, I love it. I don't know what else to say. It's dramatic.

It's just a good. This isn't, like, this is an all-timer. This is like in the Madonna canon. Yeah. Ghost Town was a single. Second single. Yes. Should have been bigger.

The video is pretty cool, too. Really high production value. I don't remember the video. Yeah. It's like really gothy, like Anne Ricey. Okay. She looks gorgeous. Terrence Howard, isn't it? Okay.

There's a real wolf. It's really cool. Big budget. Thanks, Interscope. The next song is unapologetic bitch. I love this song so much. I can't even tell you. Go off.

I listen to it on the way here. Go ahead. I mean, it's Diplo, obviously. And Ariel. Jill. It's a, it's a super fun, you know. She's flipping everyone off. Right.

Rumored to be about her breakup with the dancer, Brahim's about... I could see it. It was her dancer on the last tour. This was near the end of the tour, of the Robillard tour. And she kind of skanked offstage. It's got, you know, it's like a reggae dance hall, whatever. Because one thing Diplo is going to do. Well, it's a Diplos song.

There's an air horn. He's going to take you to the fucking dance hall or he's going to fucking take you to the favela. And you know what, babe? You don't need to take everyone to the dance hall or the favela. There's something about unapologetic bitch. the vibe, the lyrics, and the track of the song that just like, it's a perfect marriage for me. And when she was skanking off and then the last image on the screen, it just said, bye, bitches, I loved it. This is for me.

I love this. I think also she said it was partly inspired by the mid-80s Playboy Penhouse nude nudes debacle. Not debacle because she didn't care, but then printing her nudes against her will. Absolutely no regrets. Absolutely no regrets. Don't forget it. Absolutely no regrets. I'm not ashamed.

Illuminati. That is a song. That is on here. That's a song. It's a Kanye, Mike Dean. Travis Scott somehow is a writer on the song. I'm involved in this song. Also 800 other people.

And it has like a painful Madonna rap. Although I will say when she wraps, she's like Gaga. When she speaks, like this low register. Yeah, yeah. It always cracks me up. It's very interesting. It's not Jay Z or, you know. Yeah.

So the song is about how. people are misusing the word Illuminati. Well, she educated me on this. I did not know what she was talking about. She's not wrong. No. But when she started saying this stuff during the interview, I was literally like Googling. I had no idea what she was talking about.

She's like, I know the real Illuminati. And I'm like, oh, well. And it's Shakespeare and Linerard Da Vinci. Yeah, who knew? I'll just move on from this song. Okay, that's fine. Thank you. It's Bichamadana with Nikki Minaj.

I'm sorry, but I like this too. And Sophie. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. has credits on the song.

The line, bitch I'm Madonna. Yeah. Originally appeared in the 2013 cool AD song, Eroika. He said, bitch, I'm Kevin Sorbo, bitch I'm Madonna. It's a great song, actually. Diplo, I guess, showed that to her. He also explained to Interview Magazine that they were, like, drinking one night at the studio,

and he played Madonna a Japanese pizocado melody with a drop, and she liked that, so they kind of build a song around that. Sophie comes in when there's a full demo. And what she did, she added the arpeggio synth in the chorus. That's like that ethereal. Yep. That's to me one of the only good parts of the song. She talked to the face in 2020 about it and about like her different working styles,

like how Diplo works so different and she works so different, how you could hear so clearly their same. signatures and stuff. Yeah. She also said that this song was written on acoustic guitar originally because Madonna likes guitar, and so Wes went on added some guitar. That's cool. Yeah. I don't know.

I really like it. You know, and maybe this is just like a taste thing. I wonder how this song could have sounded produced completely differently because it has really catchy elements and like, I just want to have fun tonight. Like, okay, I could see that being a completely different song. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. But, I mean, again, it's just a taste thing.

Whatever. I mean, you're not going to take me to Madonna jail? Sorry, I don't like it. I don't like bitch I'm Madonna. Fucking put me in prison. It went off. Put me in prison next to what Diplo. The end of the...

In Brazil. But it really went off at the end of the celebration tour. And all the dancers were just dressed in different Madonna guises over the years. And it was like, bitch I am Madonna. I'm all these people. Oh, it was good. The video... There were famous people in this video?

This is directed by Jonas Hackerland, the standard highline, and it has tons of cameos. Chris Rock, Katie Perry, Rita Ora, Kanye West, Nikki Minaj, but on a TV, so I think she wasn't actually there. Miley Cyrus Diplo Beyonce Beyonce is in this video That's a get

Beyonce doesn't show up I know That was surprised Alexander Wang also Queen's Remed Break My Soul Madonna came to the Beyonce show

I was at to see the other queen That's very cool I love that they like each other I know That's actually very important to me Yeah The video is crazy

The video is like What are we wearing It was a different time David does David Banda does a little solo dance Rocko's in it I hate the, I hate the, I hate the, um, I hate the aesthetic.

It's not their fault. I just hate the aesthetic. We did not talk about the album cover. Oh my God, we did not talk about the album cover. Because when you said the aesthetic of this time, I'm picturing her face all scrunched up and bondage. We really need to talk. I like it. You like it?

I do really like it. Is that bad? No. I think it's cool. I like that it is a little bit ugly and that she let that be. Yeah. I like that aspect of it. I think it's very striking.

Yeah. It's very memorable. I'm not sure I love the font of the, this is kind of an ongoing thing for me with these. The fonts? Yeah, just like I'm like, this is an unusual choice. Yeah. But I love the imagery I actually really love it. It caused a little controversy.

Yeah. When she was posting it on other people's faces on Instagram.com. Sometimes we make mistakes with filters and things like that. Martin Luther King, I believe, was one of them. Yeah, that was not good. Yeah. Yeah. One move past that. Listen, you know, that's a bad faith reading of what she was doing. I'll say it.

Yeah. Hold tight. It's very unremarkable. I'm like, if you're going to do that song, just make it ghost town and delete this one. I'm okay on this song. Okay. Joan of Arc. I really like this song. I do too. I'm so glad we finally agree. Do you feel like we like it because it sounds like a Taylor Swift song? How could you say that? To me, it sounds like it could totally be a Taylor Swift song. But you don't feel like it? Yeah. It's strummy. It's super melodic. Yeah.

I could absolutely hear Taylor Swift singing this song and writing it. Not that I'm saying she wrote it. Yeah, no, no, no, no. I could see it. I could see it. I love it. Again, of course I'm going to love it because this is like a... Well, so it's one for vulnerable.

It's an analog. Yeah, it's guitar. It's vulnerable. Like people say shit about me my entire career. But you know what? Sometimes it hurts. She does not admit that all the time. No, and I think that's really...

You know, it's a nice counterpoint to bitch I'm Madonna. Okay. Well, it's a nice... Inside you, there are two wolves, you know? Okay. Toby Gad, I think being the leadful word, dragging my soul into the dirt. Toby Gad, I think being the lead songwriter on this one,

makes a lot of sense because of the wrecking ball of it all, you know? Totally. Okay, iconic. I'm going to say it. I kind of like Mike Tyson. Because I think it's cool. Oh, my God. I do not like this.

I was going to say the less said about this, the better is literally what I wrote in my notes. But I don't. I didn't say I like the song. I just think it's cool. I think it's cool. I think it was cool that she, like, went and saw Mike Tyson's show and was like, I do believe he's iconic. He's one of the people that survived so much has been to Helen back, and there's no one like him. She's not wrong.

She's not wrong, but she loves a boxer. She loves a boxer. She loves it a controversial figure. I just have a softball for Mike Tyson, so much like Madonna. The song is fine. It's fine. It's actually a pretty good chance to rap or verse. I don't believe in that.

Okay. The next song is Heartbreak City. they're notable because it has 22 writers It's not 22 I think it's like 9 Madonna Avici Arash Pornuri Tobias Jimson

Tobias Jimson and Michael Fly Gar from the Swedish band No No No Paloma Stalker A.khae Alfaqa Magnus Little Hall

and Vincent Pontare That's a lot of writers A lot of writers Yeah I don't know It's kind of heartbreaking It's fine A little dramatic

Yeah it's good I said it's good But it's fine Okay I like Body Shop I like body shop And actually, it was really great live, too, on the Rebel Heart tour. I watched it.

Okay. I thought it was very cute. Very charming. Again, it goes into True Blue, because I wrote here before I saw that it's very true bluish to me. It was a little bit of a sock hop part of the show. It was just like kind of cutesy. Totally. But it's like, and again, the lyrics are a little literal, you know, a little.

It's a little candy shop. It's a little on the nose with these metaphors, but it's actually very cute. Holy Water. That's your favorite. Yeezeses loves my pussy best. No. But bitch get off my pole. Yes.

Yeah, okay. I'm okay with that. Get off my dick. Yep. I can give you everything that you want. Bitch, get off my pole. Bitch, get off my pole. Natalia Kills is on this song?

Yes, I was going to say, do you remember Natalia Kemp? I do, but most people won't. Respectfully. Dan Kripps from Rolling Stone, if you were watching her listening, I remember going with him to see Natalia Kills. She had a big moment around this time. She did. Yeah.

Very fun. But then nothing happened. No. It's a song about. kind of ninglingus. I think it is. Holy Water. Yeah.

And that's fine. Next song is inside out. Yeah, it's another one from the Ghost Town crew. Yeah, but this one is... It's not really a winner. This one's not for me. Wash all over me. My note on this is that it's sort of like a classic Madonna closer where she's going to,

you know, an emotional place. It's an Avechi one, so I assume you like it. Yeah, I like it okay. It's not the best of the Avechi bunch, but I think it's okay. Yeah. This is where I'm like What in the fuck Is going on?

Because now we've entered deluxe This album has three versions Yeah Regular deluxe and super deluxe Which I presume was for Sales purposes, right? Yeah, and I was like keep in mind Proto Taylor Swift has 17 versions

of the voice memos or whatever Yes, but remember again Going back to the beginning of this album That there was the leak and the six songs released So I think everything about the way this album came out And where the songs are and everything They're all impacted by that. Yeah, and it's like it fucked up the record.

Yeah. Because I know there's other songs you're going to want to talk about. But Rebel Heart, the title track. I need to scream it from the rooftops. This is the best song on here. It's the number one best song on here. It might not be my number one, but it's very up there. I love this song.

Your number one is Holy Water. We've already established that. You're killing me. Rebel Heart is the fucking God-tier jam. Yeah. Yeah, fine. Is it a little barn court? Yeah, and I like barncore.

But, come on. I took the Rolla's traveled by. And I barely made it out alive. It's like anthemic. It's like it has the entire, like it's so Madonna. It has all the themes she's trying to talk about. I've spent some time as a narcissist. Narcissists generally don't say that.

No. It's nice to hear it. Talking about how much she was dying to be seen and how maybe it didn't fulfill her. Or her the way she wanted. Or maybe there were sacrifices she made in other elements of her life in her single-minded focus. Oh, it's a great song. It's so, so, so good.

It's so good. And it's like, I feel sad because I think it's not, it will not be remembered because it wasn't a single or put out in that way. I know. It was good on the tour, though. And it went over big. From what I understand, and you correct me if I'm wrong, Madonna fans really love Veni Vidi Vidi Viti Vichie featuring Nause. Yeah, they do. I don't like this song.

It's not really my favorite. I like it in the sense that she's celebrating herself, and it's like, it's basically bands playing Madonna parts one through three. She's like, like reflecting and celebrating her own career. But we are like, this album begins a slippery slope that continues on Madame X where it's like how many rappers need to be on the record? Not this many. No offense to Nas, who I do like in general. A little offense to Nas. It's a little.

A little. A little offense to us. Great rapper, perhaps not a great person. S-E-X. This is going to be a nice. know for me. No. That's a no. I'm an open door let you come inside of me. No. I just want you to know there's a genius comment, and I live for genius commenters because they are the most demented mutants alive. And this one just says, Madonna here is playing with the word come, for it sounds like CUM, that has an entirely

sexual meaning. As a 57-year-old woman, the material girl still has a very active sexual life, but she no longer has to worry about getting pregnant. Wow. Do you think that this... Also, making some assumptions. Okay, yeah. I mean, listen, it do be happening. I think Janet Jackson was like 55 when she had her baby. Yeah.

I just like the idea of this genius annotator like Googling menopause. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? No, it's not a good song. I need to ask you a really important question and we need to be honest with each other. Okay. What's with the Lisp? I think she's wearing the grill.

On purpose. And it makes me insane. Take the grill out. You know, once we got to Madam X and she has that song. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. And then I'm like, okay, maybe this was also a stylistic choice. It must have been. She doesn't do anything by accident.

It's not like she didn't notice she was lisping with the grill in. Yeah. I just don't get it. It's a little distracting the lisp. It's a little, it's not good. It's also like singing extremely sexual innuendo with a lisp is so funny. This is cringe Madonna. It's so funny.

It's cringe. Messiah. I like it. I'm sorry. I don't care. Take me to the fucking favela prison. I like it. It's not a favela song.

It's an amici song. That's why I like it. Auto tune, baby. I don't like it. Again, you can take me to the favela prison. That's no good. God, there's so many songs. Yeah, there's four more that I actually don't have a lot of thoughts on.

Beautiful Scars, Borrow Time, Addicted, and Graffiti Heart. Graffiti Heart means well. I honestly don't remember any of these songs. It's not the I'm addicted from MDNA. presume. No. Okay. Okay.

Well, all right. That was Rebel Heart. But we could talk about the tour. Yes. So I think I saw this one three times. I really loved it. I think this was, I mean. You went three times.

Yeah. But you went seven to celebration. Right. One of them was in Atlantic City, which was a wonderful opportunity to go gamble before the show. Seven times you went to celebration and not one of them. I do. I did.

I did. There's a lot to talk about the celebration. But I really, really, really did love the Rebel Heart tour. I thought it was great. Iconic, a song that we both sort of dismissed from the album, really worked as the opener of the show. I don't know why, but it did. It just, I still don't think it's a good song, but it worked as the opener, which just proves she can pretty much save everything alive. She's back with the electric guitar. Yeah. Burning up. Yes. Really good.

Which she poured that over to the celebration tour. I'm sorry. She's spinning on a pole for Holy Water. Yeah. And then she's doing Vogue while she is spinning. It's incredible. She does deeper and deeper, dressed like a naughty cup, and she turned it into a line dance. everyone should be line dancing to deeper and deeper. I just like this is a thing that should be happening. Heartbreak City while she's climbing up a giant staircase. Like a virgin, she's prancing down the catwalk. She looks like she's 20.

I know. It's crazy. I love those moments. There are moments like that in celebration too, which I absolutely loved. Rebel Heart on acoustic guitar. So heartfelt. It's really good. Really just like amazing moment.

And then she did this sort of old-timey black and white gangster movie thing for a candy shop into Material Girl. I don't know. I liked it. She's a bust out lovey on. Rose. Why not? Why not? And then unapologetic bitch That's when

There's one thing I did not like about this. This is when she started having a gimmick every night Was that the word on the back of her? No, when she had people come up and like eat a banana. Amy Schumer opened the first show as a comic. So did Madonna event this as well? The like, yes. They're like picking someone from a crowd like the I'll put you in jail or whatever. I mean this was like 20

16? Okay, back to the blueprint. Yeah. So yeah, she did. It made me crazy. But there's a montage of them in the live thing of all the people she brought up. I was just dumb. But then she skanked down.

She came back for holiday. Holiday killer ending. Great to go back to the roots, you know. God, I really love that show. Is this when Liz Rosenberg left? It was around now, yes. Because, yes. I was going to say,

it's been a litany of public since then. My friend Brian Bumbery took over around now. And he was kind enough to invite me to Miami. So that's why I was at Art Basel for her tears of a clown show. So Rebel Heart was the one in Australia or was that the tour before where she had that like really weird? So she did that and then she replicated it at Art Basel with a couple days. So this was the Rebel Heart dress like a clown. It was a meltdown.

But it was like an unplanned tears of a clown show that people were like, what are we doing here? Yes. That did happen during this tour. People were very confounded. Yes. But then she did it purposefully. as a fundraiser at Art Basel. I think it's so cool.

It was super cool, and she did toxic. She did Britney Spears toxic. Like in a grindy, weird way. It was an epic experience. I can't even believe I experienced it. It was crazy. I love that. Yeah.

This is very cool. We forgot to mention one quick thing before the tour. I noticed what it was. I'm ready. You're like, I don't want to talk about it. Well, two things. She appears with Taylor Swift unannounced at the I Heart Radio Awards. That was cool.

They do Ghost Town. Then in April, I remember this very well. Yeah. She goes on stage with Drake. at Coachella. Drake had a song called Madonna on that album where you promised to make a girl as big as Madonna.

So she wore a shirt that said big as Madonna and her hat that says Threat. She thinks she's also wearing in the bitch-at-Madonna video. And she sang human nature and hung up. And then she kissed him. So I'd be honest with you.

I had eternal sunshine to this from my memory. I'm sorry. And I had to rewatch it this morning. Yeah. Not church tongue. No. He grimaced.

And then later said it was because of her lipstick. So I disagree. You think he didn't grimace? So first, he kind of reached up to touch her hair, and she was like, no, and she pushes him away. Love that. Yeah. I think he was like, damn.

Oh, yeah. I didn't read his agreements. I read it as like, can you believe this just happened? Yeah. Yeah, I could see that. Like, what? Madonna just made out with me. Come on.

So, yes, I read it as a positive thing, but I know that all the press was like, oh, Drake was turned off. Probably an Aegis thing where they like, oh, he had to kiss an older woman. Of course. He should be so fucking lucky. Mm-hmm. All right. So we just talked about the Haiti fundraiser in which she started doing a couple of Haiti fundraisers around here. She also performed at the Billboard Awards in May and honored Prince and did nothing compares to you in Purple Rain with Stevie Wonder.

So at this point, the big three from the 1980s, she's the only one left. I know. And she makes a big point of this on the celebration tour. And then she raises, okay, this is the one you went to. In Art Basel, $7.5 million from Malawi during Art Basel. Oh, that's what it was, yeah. By auctioning off pieces from her own art collection, a costume from her tour, bottled by Ariana Grande, black and white photos from her wedding to Sean Penn. And then she's named Billboard's Woman of the Year at the end of that year.

And that's what she gives this incredible speech that I have quoted a billion times. Because Donald Trump had just been elected president. We need to remember the month before. And the night before the election, Madonna did a pop-up, like, Hillary thing in Washington Square Park. And I was down there with all my friends. And I was like, wow, this is really a moment. History is going to be made tomorrow.

I'm seeing Madonna right before it happens. And then obviously that did not happen. Yeah, we all thought something different. Yeah. But I believe, I might be wrong. But I believe that was the Billboard speech where she said, like, the most controversial thing I ever did was, like, stick around. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's one of my, like, the things that is so interesting. inspiring to me about her and so such a point of interest for me how much it infuriates people. Yes. I mean, we obviously haven't talked much about the plastic surgery. I don't want to like get too into the weeds about it because, you know, on one hand, I am sort of of the mind of like, okay, well, we don't need to like criticize or like assess people's looks. but I'm also of the other mind of like, well, this is a person who has her whole career kind of invited discussion and attention of her looks. So I guess could continue or should continue.

I'm still working out how I feel about it, but I think maybe the most compelling thing to me is that it is like a cipher for thought. Like you can't help but like – and I know some people have knee-jerk reactions one way or the other, but you can't help. But you can't help, for me, I can't help but think about what it means on like every level. Like, what does it mean to be a woman of a certain age in the public eye? What does it mean to be beautiful? What does it mean to be beautiful as one of your defining characteristics for over two decades of your life? What does it mean to let that go? What does it mean to not let that go?

What does it mean to try to be part of a beauty standard that was not set by you? You know, why are women criticized for aspiring to a beauty standard that they did not architect, you know? Like, it's just, it's a really interesting, and like, why is there a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it? Why is it okay if you get tasteful surgery and not okay if you get different surgery? Like, it's such a labyrinth that for me, it's just like, it gives you a lot, again, my pink pussy hat right back on my head. But, like, I do find it really interesting. And as like a woman who is like, of course, I'm afraid to age. Every day of my life I'm afraid to age because I see, you know, there was a great quote in Mary Gabriel's book that's from Germain Greer who wrote a book about menopause.

And she talks about how one of the greatest horror monsters in a culture is aging women. People, there's nothing more off-putting and fear inspiring to people than a woman who is aged. Yes. 100% to everything you said. I'm of like 60 minds of this myself. Yeah, it makes me like schizophrenic, right? It's so hard because like one thing that I wish is that like, you know, Madonna broke every mold and she set every trend and she set every bar. And it would have been super cool if there was a world in which she could also set the bar for aging naturally. Sure. And that it wouldn't matter. But it's her choice. But it does matter. It is her choice.

Yeah. And yeah, we're about to enter an era where, you know, something started to look different. And it was hard not to notice. It's hard on to do. It became very, like, people were going for quotes to her publicist all the time. You know, like, oh, did she get butt on plants? Did she do this? And it's like, people are always going to be talking about her. That's part of the whole thing.

It's like a shame that it overshadowed everything else because, like, that's not the art. That's not the art of Madonna. And I completely understand she's literally, she exists to be looked at. Yeah. And she's choosing how she wants to be looked at, how she wants to be regarded. I can go a million ways on it. I think it would have been amazing if there was a way. Sure.

But I don't know that there's a way. Not in this world, maybe in 100 years. Probably not. Yeah, I just don't know what the alternative. I mean, I'm sure there's many alternatives. I also think it's worth pointing out that, like, a person who's a meticulous planner like this, there's some things you can't meticulously plan. And plastic surgery is one of them. Like, there are so many ways that it can go.

There are so many advances that will happen later, you know? Like, it's a constantly changing field. Like, there's also so many elements of getting older that there's absolutely no way to rewind, you know, like her muscles will weaken at a certain point. They have not yet, like, solved. She's had this knee injury, you know, that happened around Madame X time that, you know, plagues her to this day.

You can see her wearing the tape under her outfits and stuff. It's like there's something she's not going to be able to control, but she can control this. And we have discussed how much she likes to control things. I just think she is unfairly made the like target of all of the ire around

plastic surgery. I mean, obviously everyone gets it, but like, she's just seems to get it more than anyone else. She gets everything more than everybody else. There was a video montage. I apologize again at the end of the celebration tour where it was like, I think Patrick actually mentioned this during his episode, where it was like a look back to all the time. She was a headline every second.

And it's like, you know, it's another day. And there's a new Madonna controversy. Like every day she was the nightly news. Yeah. Every day she was from page news. Everything she does will always be a little bonus controversy. I'm just, I'm really tired of like, it's usually men, but it's like this puritanical like I can't, she shouldn't do that. I can't believe she should do that. When like there are women up in

your face. Yeah. If you see a woman on television, she's had plastic surgery. I will lay down my life. Oh, since HGTV developed. 98%. No, even once that you do, even I'm, like, I'm not going to dox people, but like you name an actress, she's done something to her face. Yeah. All of them. Every single one, except for like with the very few exceptions, and you can tell when they have it. You just can't tell what the ones who have because the way they do it. And then you think that that's the beauty standard. You think, no, Anne Hathaway just looks amazing. She sleeps well. Okay.

You know, like, but there's no criticism of that. It really infuriates me, and I'm sure it's infuriates me because I'm a woman that has to live under the gaze for now, you know. Cher has taken it for Dolly Parton, though. I mean, because Dolly turned it into the joke. Yeah. You know, she's approached it differently. Madonna just doesn't want to talk about it. Yeah.

She's not putting it, you know, front and center. And she doesn't have to. She can do it over the fuck. she wants. All right. Speaking of pink pussy hats, Madonna attends the Women's March on Washington.

I was also there. Were you there? Yeah. Oh, cool. Welcome to the Revolution of Love, to the rebellion, to our refusal as women to accept this new age of tyranny where not just women are in danger,

but all marginalized people where being uniquely different right now might be truly considered a crime. It took this horrific moment of darkness to wake us the fuck up. She told the crowd of 500,000 and performed to express yourself in human nature.

Remember back then when we thought I'm moving Smartville is going to fix stuff. Oh. Were we ever so young? The next one, she adopts the twins from Malawi, Esther and Stella. They were four at the time. And then that September, she picks up the whole family and moves to Portugal, which I understand. Many people.

Well, she, under the guise that she had become a soccer mom and that David was like a budding soccer star. Why, I don't know if it was a guys. I mean, he is. He's a gifted athlete. He's very... I think it was a one-two punch. situation. It was like, I don't want to be in America anymore. This shit sucks, which like, who can fucking relate? And my son, and also I'm, and one of the richest people in the world

I can live wherever I would not live in. Why not go to Lisbon? Yeah. This is, and then Lisbon is where the seeds are definitely planted for Madame X. I'm going to, I'm going to stand up when no one else will. Please, because I'm not going to. I'll read this little quote. In 2000, from Billboard. In 2017, Madonna thought she was moving to Portugal to be a soccer mom, but instead, the 61-year-old icon found inspiration for her then upcoming album, Madame X, thanks to a friend, she calls her musical plug, Dino de Santiago. One night, the Cape Verdi-born, Lisbon-based singer, who coached Madonna on how to speak Portuguese and sing in Portuguese and Creole, had arranged a concert for her by Batucca Deras Orchestra,

a group of female drummers specializing in Batuka, a rhythmic call-and-response style created in Cape Verdi during the early days of the slave trade. I'd never seen anything like it, never heard anything like it, so of course I couldn't get it out of my head, says Madonna. respect. She loves to be inspired. She does. It's 2018.

Now, she debuts her new song, Beautiful Game at the Met Gala. Oh, I forgot about that. Yeah. Yeah. People tell me to shut my mouth that I might get burned. She sang during the religious theme set

to coincide with the event's heavenly body scene. That was one of my favorite, My Gala themes. Keep your beautiful lies because I'm not concerned. That's not bad. Not bad. Do you remember the tribute to Aretha Franklin at the VMAs?

Yeah, no, I do remember that. It was not, that did not go over well. People didn't like it, but I was kind of like, well, frankly, from what I read, they had asked her to come talk about how Aretha inspired her in her career. And that's basically what she did. And they were like, you talked about yourself too much. Well, also, fun fact. So for Madonna's 60th birthday, I did a, please, every, no. Everyone please find the feature we did the New York Times called 60 Ways.

Madonna changed our culture. It's like one of my favorite things we ever did as a team. And we published it on Madonna's birthday. And it had like five hours on the home page. and then Aretha Franklin died. You were like, God damn that Aretha. Well, first of all, devastating news because she's another queen. It was a very day for queens.

And a very inspirational queen, too, Madonna, who she talked about a lot in the early days. Incredibly so. But it meant that 60 ways Madonna changed our culture left the homepage. And all the Aretha stuff rolled out. So I was like, Madonna, I understand why you're a little bit sensitive about Aretha. Totally. And again, she just did what they were.

They asked her to you. She did. In 2018, she collaborated. In October 2018, she collaborates with Cuevo and Cardi B for the song Champagne Rose. Forget about that. Yeah, me too, honestly. Because it's kind of a forgettable song. Yeah.

Drink me up, champagne rosé, it's my game. Please fill my cup, champagne rosé, it's my name. It's important because this is how she meets Cuevo. Yeah. Well. Okay. In 2019, it's now time for the full Madame X album to come out June 14th. Listen, Mary Gabriel said that this represents a marker in.

Madonna's career as important as like a prayer or ray of light, and I say yes. I say no. Okay. Oh my God. But also keep in mind, we are on the other side of 60 here. Yeah. I, one of my longest held beliefs is that I want Madonna to go Bjork mode. Yes. Now. You know? And I think this is kind of in a way going Bjork mode, you know. Go on. We've left the candy shop and the like, here. Here's what's hip right now. I'm part of it. We've left songwriter camp, which I think, in my opinion, Rebel Heart has so much good stuff,

and I think it could have been so much better. No, no, totally true. Okay, listen, stay with me. Yeah. And then she was like, I'm just going to go back to what I like, which is doing whatever the fuck lights me up and working with one producer. Well, I don't know if it was actually in the end one producer, but, well, you know, there was some leftover songs, so we have credits the way credit is them.

But really, I think the primary architect of this album with her was Mirway, right? Yeah. She sent that Batu Kera things. She sent up to Mirway and said, I don't know if I'm crazy, but is there something here? And he started working on tracks. I like that she made a character? Okay. Yes.

I like the eye patch. I'll say it. Okay. I like that she's sort of like a global detective, you know, an international woman of mystery. But she had to wear that freaking eye patch for the entire. I think it weakened her eyes on. thing and like it obviously was not working out for her. She weren't on stage during the show.

You could tell that she was like worried about getting up and down a lot of these steps. Yeah. I thought it was cool. I think visually is very striking. Is every song on here good? No. Okay. I'm not deaf.

You can ride for this. We're going to have to go track by track though. There are some tracks that I'm like, okay, I would love to die. But we'll get into them. Okay. So the Madame X alter ego is named after the 1908 play written by Alexander Bissan, as well as the 1884 portrait by John Singer-Sargent. She said in the album teaser,

I decided to call my record Madame X. Madam X is a secret agent, traveling around the world, changing identities, fighting for freedom, bringing light to dark places. She is a dancer, a professor, a head of state, a housekeeper, an equestrian, a prisoner, a student, a mother, a child, a bitch, I'm just kidding, a teacher, a nun, a singer, a saint, a whore,

a spy in the house of love. I am Madame X. Housekeeper really threw me out there, but I am also a housekeeper in my house. So she also said that Martha Graham, one of her early dance teachers, would call her Madame X because every day you come to school and I don't recognize you. Every day you change your identity. I like that. That's the best thing I like about this.

Yeah. The artwork is, again, by Stephen Klein. She's wearing diamond art deco earrings by Pinesi jewelry, black hair, pale skin, arched eyebrows, thin smile, red lipstick. I think the Frida Callow knot is cool. Her icon. Of course. I like that. where the lettering is.

And again, like you said about Rebel Heart, it's not flattering. Yeah. Which I think is really cool. It is. That is. That is. And the lips shown shut. You know, we already know what that is.

I'm not, if you want me to shut up, I'm not shutting up, bitch. But Median is a good song. Mediation is a good thing. I can't even say it. Medellin. Medellin. Medellin. Medellin is a fucking banger.

And Maluma is hot as hell. Yeah. She put him on two songs with this album so she could hang out with Maluma. You mind if a white girl speak a little espalianal. And I love it. I love it. I love it. Yeah, I would put Malema.

I'll put Malema wherever he wants to go. He can be the second chair of this podcast. But let's hit a little bit of cringe here. We built a cartel just for love. No. But the rest of the song is okay. And Edgar Barrera, who works on this song, is a writer. It's like a total, you know, like bonafide Latin music,

mega producer, superstar. I didn't experience this in real time. Like, I told you this before. Kind of like after confessions, like I was like, who? Madonna, who? Unfortunately, that's my bad. But I was like busy doing all their stuff. Well, now you're really back. And now I'm so, I'm so back.

Of course, I heard four minutes. I mean, things break through, but I didn't sit with the albums. I was working here at Spotify.com at that, at this time. And Viva Latino playlist was huge. And there was so much around those artists. And I feel like she was quite early in adopting collaboration with these big artists. Yes, because Anita is on this record. It was very early for Anita, which is super fucking cool.

But, you know, Madonna's had a taste for Latin things her entire life. Jesus, loose. Yes. I also have a taste for Jesus Luz. I think that's cool. It's not a bad song. I like it. When it came out, I was excited. I went to some premiere event at MTV.

With a video? Yeah. A video's great. I mean, if you, listen, if you invite me to a Madonna event 99 times out of 100, I will show up. I showed up at that. Yeah. But I thought she was going to be there, and she was, like, in another country. And I was like, oh.

being Carmen San Diego. Yeah. They get married in the video. Yeah. No, it's cute. They bonded over their love of horse writing at the MTV Awards. But then after this, things get really... Okay, you know what?

I like dark ballet. I'll say it with my whole chest. I like dark ballet. Upon first listen, I was like, I did the full kombucha meme. Camoocha meme. Oh, yeah, that's one of my favorites, yes. And I'm here. I'm like, you know what?

It uses the dance of the reed flutes from Tchaikovsky's the Nutcracker, iconic. Okay. At first I was like, did you just say Supreme Hoodie? But that's my personal trauma that jumped out. I have nothing to do with Madonna. No. But she can dress like a boy. She can dress like a girl.

We've been there before. We're talking about Joan of Arc. Okay. She's talking about Joan of Arc who fought the English and she won. And still the French were not happy. Still they judged her, she said. They said she was a man. They said she was a lesbian.

They said she was a witch. And in the end, they burned her at the stake. And she feared nothing. But she has a song called Joan of Arc that's good. Well, why can't we have faith? favorites that we mine, you know, she's been talking about Frida Kahlo since fucking 1988, too. I know. I like it.

I think it's, okay, here's. It's also, it's too slow for me. It's so weird. Yeah. I like how fucking weird it is. Nobody is making a Chikovsky referencing kind of rap about Joan of Arc in the year 2019. I give you all that. So, yes.

They are so naive. They think. We are not aware of their crime. And she put Mickey Blanco in the video to play Joan of Arc so fucking cool. That's cool. That's cool. Mickey Blanco, in the culture at the moment, had... Was kind of on the way out, but yes.

Had done the Beyonce stuff, yeah. It starts with the Jonah Vark, Quoke the video. One life is all we have, and we live it as we believe in living it. But to sacrifice what you are and to live without belief, that is a fate more terrible than dying. And then it ends with one from Mickey Blanco. I have walked this earth, black, queer, and HIV positive, and no transgression against me has been as powerful as the hope I hold with him. I find a very moving, supreme hoodie and all. A powerful quote.

T'gala, bald wing quotes in the live show for this. She knows what she's talking about. This song is like seven minutes long. This song is such a no for me. I'm sorry. I love that you love it. I love it. That's cute.

I think it's cool. God control. Okay, so I will say this. This is where I'm not. This is rough, but Madonna played pride. Yeah. Like two weeks after the album came out. And it was like...

The LA one or the one here? No, the one here. It was on Pride Island on the west side of Manhattan. Got it. God. Getting into this thing, I have a lot of issues with like gay men at pride, not like letting anybody else have any space. Got it.

Like I was literally being punched in the face as I was trying to get through the crowd to this thing. It was like an actual nightmare. But she did, she did Vogue, which was like epic. And it was like preview of the Madame X show, but she did the song. And it was good. And I was like, okay, this works live in a way that it really doesn't. not work on the record. She's singing like through clenched teeth. Perhaps the grill is in. I'm not

100% sure. It's a very didactic song about gun violence. I wanted to sing as if someone had wired my jaw shut and I wasn't allowed to speak and that's why she sounds like that. Okay. Well, yes, that tracks. That's what she sounds like. But there's some really cringy rap in here that includes that's why I don't smoke that dope. That's really bad. That dope is a little. I felt like a dork of. It is. And it ends with some sort of Dr. Susie thing. And it's just like very processed. It's not my favorite song on here. I don't know. I'm just going to say that it did work live. Everything I'm saying sounds very negative, but it really did work live.

This song has... It kind of had like, it had a choir, it had like a vibe. Yeah. Even when she said, that's why I don't smoke that? It did. Even, even, yeah. And this song is Madonna and Mirway and Casey Spooner. Oh, yeah.

Which I'm not going to get again into the weeds, but there was not give any oxygen to that. Some drama, but it was very funny. That at one point he posted that he was poor in Berlin. Because Madonna had not paid him for his track. I know. I'm poor in Berlin. A lot of people try to talk to me about this. It feels like a result of your own choices.

Yeah. But anyways, I love Fisher Spooner. We're not going to shit on Casey Spooner. But I just thought that was very funny. The video is very controversial. Well, it's a gun violence thing. I understand what she was trying to do. I agree that I don't think it was successful.

But I think I have to give it to her that she's constantly trying to provoke people into thinking about things differently. and to paying attention to things. Again, it's not maybe with the kiddest of gloves. Yes. And I think a lot of people were very upset by this. Yes. And I personally don't also enjoy watching it.

Yeah. But I think it's cool that she was really passionate about gun control and was trying to, like, make a statement in some way about it. Yes. Post nightclub shooting. Yes. There are a lot of things that she was referencing here. Again, it works live.

That's all I'll say. It did not work in many other contexts, but it did work live. Future. No. Yeah, it's also kind of a know for me. This is how I learned, though, that Cuevo's name is Quavius Marshall. I did know that for some reason. But yeah, this album is just like larded with rapper features.

And I'm just like, I hate features in general. I don't want to point fingers, but there's a writer on this song and his name is Diplah. Okay, moving along. I know. And Stara, who was coming up at that time. Do you feel like this was a leftover from Rebel Heart? Yeah, because it sounds like unapologized bitch. Yeah.

That's why I kind of go. I think it's cool. Again, I'm not going to like listen to it for pleasure per se. I'm like physically uncomfortable with this record. Yeah, I can see that. Listen, I think for me always I would prefer something completely off the Richter scale than something mid. I just have a fucking, like all these, I listened to them for the past two weeks. We just talked about them.

I couldn't gun to my head. I couldn't name you one of those songs that we just. If you were like, what does addictive? It didn't sound like. I don't know. I've never heard that song. See, all those I can. These, I've literally just, like, I've erased them from my memory. How could you forget Batuka? I know. I know there's a troop of drummers, but then she's got her vocals or, like, mega-processed, and I don't like the sort of, like, natural sound of the organic drumming with the extra processing. Yeah. It doesn't work for me. I just, I like how striking it is.

It is striking. Killers who are partying is very It's like I want to like it I wrote I have fully forgotten this song And I think that's okay I'll be Islam You don't remember

I do now If Islam is hated I'll be Israel if they're incarcerated Apparently at the Madame X door She said Palestine instead of Israel I don't remember that But I believe you Good for you, good for you, Minna

I can't I know listen we don't have to This is Crave with Sway Lee I like Crave You don't like Crave? What I wrote was these songs have no tempo. I hate the singing style. It's like she's wearing her grill.

I know the singing style is polarizing for some fans on this song. I just think she sounds fabulous. I think the song is really... These songs have no shape to me. They're like... Okay. To me, they're just sort of like blobs. I go.

I guess I'm like... I have a really high tolerance for that. Okay. Like I don't need it. We're learning a lot about each other. Yeah. I mean, you're a pop music person, right? I'm not really.

Like, I like pop music, but not because it's pop music. So I don't really care about the contours of pop music. I don't care that things have song structure. You know, like, obviously, I like, I like, you know, punk and weird. You know, like. I mean, I like that stuff, too, you know. Sure. But I contain multitudes.

I know you do, but I know you do. I guess I'm just, yeah, this is fine for, I just, I think Sway Lee has a really cool voice. It's an interesting pick. I find crazy to be very whatever. I don't get it. That's a y'all mind if a white girl's. some Portuguese. And it has like sort of like, it's another like a doo-wop tempo thing where I'm like, I don't know,

I don't know what you're doing. It's not my favorite. No. Okay. I have a lot to say about Come Alive. This was so incredible at the show. I think I cried. Because of the like North African kind of.

It was, there was so much energy to it. It actually does have a great melody. It was like, I think it's a binger. It's good. Yeah. It does work on record. But like seriously, like everybody was on stage. Like a lot of people, a lot of musicians all wearing like very colorful garb.

everyone really just singing their hearts out it was very euphoric and powerful and stirring it was a peak moment of that show I think it was really good song Tough show by the way because it was a no phone show We were locked in yonder pouches

And she did go on like two hours late So I was sitting there without my phone For two hours like losing my mind She was trying to teach you once again To be in the moment Be present with yourself and your thoughts I know I filmed so much of the celebration I can't tell you I can actually put together

A super cut on YouTube I bet you could I'm sorry But yeah, this was, and also on the album, I'm like, okay, so finally there's some momentum. Like, something is building here. Yeah, yeah. I really love the song. I think it's great. I also really like the song with Anita, Faz Gustoso.

I think it's cool. Yep. I thought it was interesting that she had to kind of relearn. Oh, no, I don't think Madonna speaks fluent Portuguese, but because Anita wanted to do it for her which is a very different style of Portuguese than Portugal Portuguese. And so she kind of did that to do it with her. I think it's a pretty cool song. And Anita's cool.

I'm totally okay with it. I also really like bitch I'm loka because I love Maluma and I think it's fun. It bangs. I'm afraid to say it bangs. I said not bad. I fear it bangs. It's a sequel to the opener. I don't hate it.

I know you just love Maluma. I really like I don't search I find. This is the winner. I mean, this is an all-time Madonna banger. I mean, this is on the list. This is an amazing song. She did this at Pride too. And I was just like, oh my God, it's happening.

It is a high point of the album. The only. I mean, come alive in my number. too. But like, I remember when I was listening to this and I was, I had it early. I was playing it for like just a handful of gay men. And we were just like, oh, God, oh, God, oh, God. Then we hit the song and it was like, oh, well, it's very much like.

Like water in a desert. Back to Roots. Like, it's a housey, clubby, vogie kind of sounding song. And it's wonderful. It becomes her record-breaking 50th, number one on Billboard's Hot Dance. It's a fun fact for you. The Spoken Interlude. It's our Gypsy Blood.

We live between life and death. waiting to move on and in the end we accept it. That's actually an adapted version of a speech in full from a character from Peaky Blinders named Polly Gray. Really? Literally almost exactly. Did not know. Yeah. That is a great song though. I mean like... It's wonderful. It does not justify all of Madamex, but it's really, really good because then we have another no tempo song looking for mercy. And then, I'm sorry, I'm skipping to the end. I hate I arise. I hate iris. It makes me legitimately angry and she ended the show with it and I wanted to leave. I was like... It's kind of like the video that we just talked about where it's like the intention is good.

The road to hell, though, paved with those. Yeah. Yeah, this song is not good. That's not good. I like Extreme Occident, which is from the deluxe. I think it's quite good. I think when Madonna and Merways are left to cook, we get some cool and interesting stuff. Back that up to the beat is just bad.

It's clearly a leftover from... I thought all the other extras were really rough. Yeah. Funana, kind of bad. Child Bella, not bad. with Akimi Jabutei, and that's kind of interesting. I like Matamex as a whole. There are some low points, but I just find it,

I find it far more interesting than the last three albums that we talked about, even though maybe the last three albums have some better songs. I just as a project, I find it more compelling. I just me. Cannot agree with you. That's so okay. We're all, there's many flavors. We're a debate.

It's room for debate. In the world. I think everyone should have their personal opinion, and they don't have. have to convert other people. Okay. That's what art is for. It's for enjoyment. Artists are here to disturb the piece. Was the following quote she opened the Madame X show with? Where I actually really like the show. People hate the show. People were rioting. I thought it was visually very stunning. People were angry. I kind of like how she was like, oh, did you think Brown-rolled was culture appropriation? Here's my fan.

But I like that she was like, I'm going to make a cabaret, basically. Like a lot of crowdwork. A lot of it, like I saw it twice so I knew that some of it was repeated, but like a lot of crowd work, interaction. It felt so accessible. It was like, you know, sort of like it was she did opera houses and theaters. It's like when you see a Broadway show. And you're like, wow, I'm really close

to these performers. Like, I thought that was really cool. John Perelis, reviewing for the New York Times. I was his editor. Yeah. Yeah. Her Madame X show reimagines pop spectacle for a theater stage. Merging her newest music and calls for political awareness with striking intimacy. That actually was the deck. I might have written that. him, but it was great. John's review of the show was so good, as they always were.

John Perelis on Madonna, by the way, unheralded, but he is one of the best critics on her ever. I quote him a bunch of times throughout our art, because as I like to always say to John, other John Carmonica, like, if there's someone I'm looking up, guess who interviewed them? Yeah, every time. John Perlis. Every time I feel like, oh, have we written about this before? Yes, and then John did. Anyway. Amazing. But just a couple of moments from that tour, if you don't mind. Please. Just a couple. Okay. Well, the real, I mean, the one everybody talked about,

because it was, was frozen. Unbelievable moment. She is standing, singing, delivering unbelievably great vocals, and behind her, massive on screens with Lordus dancing. Oh, and it's like this big, huge Lordus, right? And she's kind of like small. It's so awesome. Really powerful.

And it was just, I love that song. Especially given that Ray of Light was such a song about motherhood and her first child was Lord. It's like so beautiful. And Batucca was great with all the drummers and singers. There were so many staircases. and she really started messing up her knees and stuff. And by the end of this tour, COVID had hit.

So, like, it was impacting the end of it. Which was, I mean, again, everything about this was like, Jesus. You know, it was a little cringe. We're all going there. Yeah. I'm cringe as hell already. And I'm going to keep going there. There's no way to age and not become cringe.

This is what, it was one of her biggest experiments. So when you say you love this, I'm like, I love it from the perspective of like she really put herself out there. It was very, it was ultimately a vulnerable thing. left a lot of money on the table. Yeah. Well, she made it all back on the celebration tour, but yeah. Still, she could have made double, you know?

Yeah, yeah. It was brave, which is not always a compliment, but I do think it was brave. It was just like, at this point she's performed in every size venue and every kind of place, and then she sets up these little weird residences. I just, that to me is old Madonna, not old, sorry, old school Madonna, is like going back to like following. I think she's at her strongest when she followed. her interests and whims and desires and no matter how weird they are and like and still picks collaborators but I thought again the collaborators on Madame X you know short of

Cuevo or whatever we're just far more interesting I just like I really I'm just like anti-feature in general I get it like whenever I see an album larded with features I'm just like you don't need these it's you well the good news is that our arc is not done because as of obviously about what a month or two ago. I don't remember the time of what day is it. It actually was almost exactly four weeks ago. And then by the time this comes out, I'll be like a month and a half or two months or whatever. But Madonna surprised us all. Well, we knew she was working on it.

Yes, that's true. I wasn't actually that surprised. Although I didn't know she was working on it when I first conceived of this Madonna month because I'm just a witch. You are a very powerful witch. Thank you. You know, the dream of a confessions too had long been, you know. In the ether. Yes. I think I tweeted about it.

a couple of million times, just like give us confessions too. And then when it seemed like it was actually coming to pass, then I started to panic. Because I was like, what if it isn't as good as confessions one, and I got worried? But then we did get something and it was great. I think I feel so free is really good. I genuinely like it. Also an iconic song for my new era.

Yes. Yeah, exactly. Jump, I feel so free. I actually, also I kind of like the Sabrina Carpenter song. It's not as strong as I feel so free to me, and I'm not a huge personally a Sabrina Carpenter fan. But I think, again, I like the messaging and it's kind of subtle, but it's very much like,

oh, sorry, you wanted me to lay down and die. I'm not doing that. And she returns to Coachella with Sabrina and you sort of show everyone how it's done. Totally. We both heard some songs off the new album, and I thought they were very good. I was really relieved.

I'm stoked. Which seems obnoxious. It's not relieved. I'm happy. You know, like, I'm just like, I relieved us up for a personal thing because I didn't want to set myself up for disappointment. But this is like, this is truly Madonna's milieu.

And if, like, confessions was seen as a little bit of a corrective after American life, to me, Confessions, too, will definitely be a corrective after Madame X. Which makes sense. No, I mean, I think just also, like, spiritually, it makes sense. Like, it's very similar where, like, you know, Madame X is austere and, like, making kind of statements, whereas, like, we're back to having fun, you know. We're back to the dance for where it really all begins for her. Yeah, so I can't wait. And then if I could be so greedy. I think I would love to hear one more Madonna album with, I want to reunite with Patrick Leonard. To me, some of the best music she's ever made in life is with Patrick Leonard. And I would just love a couple more songs. Well, I would say it's not an impossibility because also remember that Confessions, too, she's returning to Warner Brothers.

Oh. She's home. So maybe we'll get some bonus tracks, super deluxe or whatever. Anyways, I would take it. Let's close out by me asking you, because I think it's all. only fair. What's your number one favorite Madonna album? Oh, God. And I'm very sorry to do that to you. I didn't prepare. You should know it. I know. It's confessions or music. Wow. Interesting. Yeah. Interesting. I am later. Our friend Cody,

Crisletoe, who is an incredible artist and director and creative director and songwriter and artist all in one. Also his favorite is music. He thinks it's the best Madonna album. What is your favorite? It's hard. I kind of oscillate back and forth between Like a Prayer and True Blue. Oh, yeah. Those are like the two I listen to, probably the most. But I love, I mean, I fucking love erotica. I fucking love bedtime story. That era is kind of my favorite, like that time period.

I mean, I obviously love these records. Yeah, yeah. My favorite. Yeah. I've been listening to a lot of True Blue. Like, even though I'm like up to here with Madonna, some days I'm like, I don't put on true Blue. Because it's just wall-to-ball hits.

Yeah. Karen Gans, this has been an honor and a pleasure to spend your first day of freedom, indulging ourselves in Madonnaology. It's a dream come true. I hope people enjoyed it. I hope we don't go to jail, Madonna prison for... Cancelation. For saying that some things we don't like. but I think that if you're honest with yourself about an artist that you love,

you're allowed to like and don't like some stuff. And I hope you guys really enjoyed this 77-hour, four-part history of Madonna Ark. And we can't wait for confessions, too. Oh, my God, yes. All right, come back next week for a new episode of Bandsplaine. If you liked what you heard today, subscribe for more episodes of Bandsplaine. Our guest today was Karen Gans. episode was produced by Rob Sunderman and edited by Adrian Bridges with help from Justin Sales,

video production by Olivia Creary. Thanks to Bell Roman, executive producers for Bansplaine are Gina Delback and me, Yossi Solid. Our gorgeous and catchy theme song was composed and performed by Bethany Costantino and Jennifer Clavin and graciously recorded by Carlos Delagazza in Los Angeles, California. Special thanks to our producer emeritus, producer Dylan, aka Dylan Tupper Rupert, and also Sean Fennacy and Sugarfish. Come back everything. Thursday for a new episode of Bansplane on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. You know what, Manana, you can dance for two hours, but come podcasts for four hours. We'll see how that goes.