Bandsplain - Metallica Part 2 with Joe Gross

Episode Date: October 21, 2021

Here is part two of our Metallica episode, because nothing else matters. Journalist Joe Gross takes us through the latter years of Metallica. We investigate the ups and downs of their musical explorations, personnel changes, and famously documented self-help odyssey, all of which follows their 16x platinum blockbuster, the self-titled Black Album. Follow Joe Gross on Twitter at @joegross and pick up his 33 ⅓ book on Fugazi’s In On the Killtaker wherever fine books are sold. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's with this band anyway? I don't get it. Can you please explain? Wait, like, Bansplain? Hello and welcome to Bandsblane. I am your host, Yossi Salick. This is a show where I invite an expert guest on to explain a cult band or iconic artist to me and to you. Today's episode is once again about Metallica. If you've still never heard Metallica, get ready to be madly in anger with me.

This is what Metallica sounds like. Our guest today is known Gen X-Man, Joe Gross. Since 1997, Joe has written about culture, popular, and not for outlets such as The New York Times, the village voice, Rolling Stone, Decibel, and other places. He was a music, books, and film critic at the Austin American statesman for 18 years, because he's a Gen X-Man, and wrote a 33 and a third book about Fugazi. Welcome to the show, Joe Gross. Thank you so much.

I feel now I'm representing an entire generation. So, yeah, it's a good look. So this is part two of our Metallica epic, and we are now, as you know, since I briefed you, in P.B, post-Black album, PBA. Yes. We should just pick up with the Black album. Absolutely.

Joe Gross. Yes, ma'am. We've established that you're a known Gen X-Man, that you've written for the paper of record and other papers of various other records. What is your expertise or experience in the realm of Metallica? Like a lot of artsy, nerdy kids, when I was in high school, I was absolutely terrified of the serious Metallica fans in the woodshop, which should give you an idea of how old I am. since I used the words wood shop in a sentence about school. I remember the first time I heard Orion, the song Orion, was in that wood shop. And I thought, this is fantastic. What is it? And like five guys in the room said, it's Orion. It's the best.

And I started, you know, fuzzling around with Metallica for, you know, which was a big step for someone who was who was more punk guy. You didn't say this, but I'm going to agree that maybe any guy who took wood shop with Hesher's is a Metallica expert. I like to think so. Yeah. I mean, I think it was just sort of this ambient thing in the air. And then it's funny, I didn't skate. I had every other sort of punk affectation, but I wasn't a skater. Are you just not a particularly athletic person?

Well, it was more of a, do I want to spend time trying to learn this? or do I just want to go buy more records and work in a record store? And it ended up being the latter. And I was just never a skater. So I never got the thrash part of that punk thrash crossover, a trifecta that skaters thrived on. So I didn't have Metallica from a punk perspective either. It wasn't until I actually,

it wasn't until I actually started a record store with a guy who was a very, very serious metal nerd, you know, he was like, okay, let's, you know, let's just start with kill them all and go from there. And that was a massive education very quickly. I hesitate to say this to not give the reply guys more fodder, but I did skateboard. Do with that information, what you will reply guys. I can, you know, I can see it. Yeah, totally. Were you a slayer person? Was that, what was that? I loved Slayer. Yeah. I love Slayer. Also, but like discharge like you know right yeah anyways that makes me sound way cooler than I was I was not cool I had like no friends and I you know I had my like one little skateboard and my acne and my frizzy hair

and my unibrow and I was just viving that's why you skated sure to skate away from my feelings exactly yes okay Metallica so we've handled kill them all the way through the black album but I'd like to still pick up with the black album because I think, and I want to hear your thoughts on it, that this is like the turning point in the story of Metallica in many ways. Oh, yeah. I don't want to sound Captain Obvious, but it's the first, like, big musical departure that they do from their original invention of thrash through like kind of making more straightforward metal. Do you have a favorite song on the black album that is not one of the major three?

No. Did you like the Black album? It's complicated. I thought it was fine. It's one of those records that if you were in high school at the time, it's a little bit difficult to be objective about because I didn't really have any emotional investment in it. But suddenly this thing that was underground in a very particular way was suddenly everywhere. Like church people bought the Black album. And it, you know, people who went to Young Light. bought the Black album.

And it was just like, wow, this is really, this is a completely different context for these guys. And, you know, it's very much the flip side of Nirvana. That was a band that had a very particular context. And then that context was just blown up by becoming extremely popular, extremely fast. Now, obviously, they were not as popular as Metallica. but as we will soon see Nirvana's popularity and the popularity of bands that sort of came in their wake was this moment of reckoning for Metallica.

We sort of talked about this a bit on part one, but upon examination of the timing, the radio, all of this, it does really seem to me that the Black album in many ways, made it possible for nirvana's nevermind to break through. What do you think about that? It's interesting you say that. I think something that I think Cobain found kind of horrifying and I mean, I'm not going to speak for the guy, you know, whatever's going on in his head. But, I mean, he said in various places that he really wasn't expecting the jock element to to start appearing at his shows and buying his records.

Whereas, and he was really ambivalent about it, whereas Metallica was thrilled to make their audience, you know, find a larger audience for their music. Right. And, you know, I think that, you know, Nevermind is definitely one of those records where guys who, men and women, who were, you know, big Metallica nerds,

crossed over and picked up, nevermind, and we're like, oh, this is pretty great. I wonder who these guys are. Whereas I don't necessarily think it went the other way. Right. If you were already a Metallica guy and you were already a Nirvana guy, you sort of looked at the Black album with a little bit of skepticism, but I think it definitely went the other way. Speaking of Jocs, Dave Grohl, huge Metallica fan. Oh yeah. Even back then, like on record. I've never really heard, anything about how the black album impacted him? Because he came into it, like a Metallica guy.

I'm quite curious. He was, you know, a guy with long hair from suburban Virginia. Like, those guys owned a lot of Metallica records. Yeah. Well, I did read that all of Nirvana were fans of Metallica actually going in.

I don't think I wouldn't count the black album because obviously that hadn't come out yet and I don't think when people were saying at that time that they were Metallica fans. They were talking about the Black album. They were not. I wanted to talk about that and talk about Nirvana

and then talk about this rise of grunge, which seemed to last five minutes before it gave way to Alt Rock. Would you agree? That was sort of a kind of a different thing. Yeah, I think those terms get pretty fluid, pretty fast. And especially because we're only talking about

maybe five years between Nirvana blowing up and the bloom being kind of off the rows and all of these bands getting signed and putting out records and then big labels having absolutely no idea what to do with them. Yeah, totally.

So we're not talking about a very long period of time. And but yeah, I think you're... It went zero to sponge real fast. Exactly. That's a very good way of putting it. Yes, which I do, I do love sponge and we will say that. of three out of one. Yeah.

Third, wait, let's not count third-eye blind in this conversation. Let's leave them out of it. Anyways, I bring all this up to say that Metallica took a long time between the Black album and Lode, which wasn't really normal for them. I don't know why. They toured pretty extensively, and maybe they were just sort of dealing with the emotional fallout of people's criticism or, conversely, the emotional, just like what the fuck of like oh my God we're the biggest band ever now because it kind of did make them

the biggest band ever so for whatever reason I think the black album is what pushed them into megastardom and being mega rich but at 1996 an important thing happens before I think the writing

and recording of load which is that James Hatfield's father dies Yes. Virgil Hatfield. And he had gotten back in touch with Virgil. Those of you who listened to Part 1 know that James Hatfield's dad left his family when he was like 13, didn't talk to him for many, many, many, many, many years. And then reconnected with him.

Not that long, I don't think, before he passed away. He also had cancer like the mother. And he was still a Christian scientist, so he didn't take treatment. But for me, knowing that information and going into Lode, I kind of hear it differently. Yeah. It's Lowe is an interesting record. And I mean, the story of this band is really the story of the relationship between Hetfield and Lars, right? Sure. Everybody else is kind of just, you know, just there. And I don't mean that as a slight. Let's not do Kirk Erezier. That poor guy. The, uh, it's not even that as much as like he's, you know, he's the Ron Wood. Uh, and I don't even mean that in a mean way. I mean it kind of literally. You know, the story of Hetfield and Ulrich is the story of this band.

The thing I'm probably most grateful for is the fact that we're still together and Lars and I got through some really horrible times. You know, James wasn't sober at this point, and he was dealing with his dad and dealing with the context in which they existed as a band, suddenly changing overnight. And that's a lot. It's a lot, babe. Especially for men who, as you pointed out off mic in a different conversation, who, you know, sort of stopped maturing or trying to grow at the tender age of like 18. So these are middle-aged 18-year-old men. Yeah.

That's going to become a much bigger problem about five years into the future. But yes. Yeah, for Phil Towell. Okay, let's play a song offload. Here's the thing. You thought we were probably only going to play one song offload. I've become load-pilled, so we're going to play a couple songs off-load. But you tell me first what song you want to play.

No, I mean, I think we can't not play until it sleeps. That's the vestiges of old Natalca, which is probably why everyone likes that song. Okay, let's hit it, until it sleeps, a slapper. You are listening to a music and talk episode, where full songs and talks segments live together in gorgeous harmony only on Spotify. Guess what? You can also create your own music and talk show for free with Anchor, Spotify's podcasting platform.

Get started at anchor.fm slash music and talk. That's anchor. dot FM slash music and talk. Okay, that was until it sleeps. Where do I take this pain of mine, Joe? I do want to point out one thing that you said that's like the vestibes. of old Metallica. That guitar sound at the very beginning, that is not.

That is a sound that says we are starting to listen to... Allison Chains. Yes, we're starting to listen to Allison Chains. We're starting to listen to that kind of, you know, swampy chorus sound. And we're thinking about it a lot. I agree with you. I think I'm more mean, like, structurally, this song... Oh, totally.

Yeah, yeah. has like the rhythm of an older Metallica song, whereas we'll see other songs on this album do not. You know, that's kind of more what I went. No, they totally don't. It's hard to say, right? Because I think if you ask them, they would be like, oh no, we were like the Rolling Stones or whatever.

Like that's the vibe we were going for. But it can't help but sound like 1996 and who knows why. But it just sounds. And they were great friends with Allison Chains. there's a lot of evidence here that there was some like commingling of, you know, juices, excuse me, disgustingness. That song is, you know, one of many James Hatfield songs as he's trying to unpack his deep-seated pain and trauma. And if you look at it that way, it's quite a sad song. I mean, that's sort of the story of his lyrics is, you know, at some point, it's, I feel horrible.

and, you know, I'm going to take it out on everybody else. And then eventually it turns into, I feel horrible, I'm going to take it out on myself. Totally. And this is sort of the start of that. Yeah. I mean, classic, which we won't get, we're not there yet, but classic addict stuff. Totally. Let me just paint the picture of 1996, babes.

Again, all of you are above the age of 40. You were there, but just humor me. The top selling albums on the Billboard charts of 1996, Alanus Morissette's jagged little pill Number one of the year Mariah Carey's Daydream Celine Dion's falling into you Fugis the score

The only rock that cracked the top ten Fresh Horses by Garthbrook Once again I must reiterate that everyone thinks the 90s were 110% grunge the 90s were 110% Garth Brooks. Yeah. A Beatles anthology, which doesn't even count.

And melancholy and the infinite sadness, a slapper of a double album and deserves all the respect and do that it gets. That's what was happening on the charts. And rock-wise, it was very much like Smashing Pumpkins, Allison Chains, you know, Sound Garden. I'm not sure I would consider Smashing Pumpkins Rock, but okay. Hey, this is the world, you know, I think prime K-Rock hours, for those of you from L.A. Like, it was like, alt-rock radio is like on the rise. Oasis is huge.

Like, it's just, it's all rock times. I'll tell you who Metallica has said they took inspiration for in the writing of load and reload. Allison Chains, Soundgarden. Primus. ZZ Top. Pantera. Arrowsmith. And then, I'm sorry, hold on to your hat.

Oasis, what? Alanus Morissette? Sorry, what now? And Garth Brooks. Do you hear the Alanus Morissette in this album? And if so, can you point me in the direction? I certainly hear the sound across. many, many dorm rooms of people putting this album into a five-CD changer along with Alonis Morset.

Sure. It's interesting because I was telling someone this morning, and I'll say it again, just for your producer that I've become load-pilled. She doesn't like that. I don't literally have any recollection aside from, like, seeing the cover art of this album. Like, it did not break through into what I was listening to in 1996. I could have fucking cared less. didn't pick it up. I never listened to it. But I guess other people did. Apparently so. And I think

part of that was, I mean, it's interesting. The Black album comes out, changes their lives, changes other people's lives. And then there's this long break. And Lode comes out in June 96 when the grunge thing or the the grunge thing sort of transitioning into these major labels snatching up smaller bands or starting like the bubble grunge wave is starting. And so they kind of skip the important part of the Nirvana years. Sure. Like, 1996, Cobain's already dead. And so they, they, yeah, and so they're sort of coming in, you know, kind of wisely after all of that weird chaos. And people who bought the Black album, which is a whole lot of them saw a load and thought, oh, hey, there's a new Metallica record. Let's pick it up. Sure. But you know what did exist around this time? Corns.

Well, that becomes a problem later. But I'm just saying, so there was this, the strain of alt rock that wasn't bubble grunge. It was much harder. The like end expression of this hard music kind of was like nickel back and shit in the early 2000s. Yeah, and then you have corn that was the most Baker's Field band that ever existed. I love corn so much.

Yeah, that, I mean, yeah, we're going to get into corn later. Like, this is, this is a whole thing. But I'll just say that corn at this time, I was occupying a similar space as Metallica did when their early career. And I only am saying that anecdotally, but I believe it to be true because Little Yossi,

was picking up her warp magazine, and with it came a cassingle of Blind by Corn. Like they were like the cool underground skateboard culture band at the time, which was kind of what Metallica started out as as well. Yep. There's a song on load that I would like to play, and Bethany, if you're listening, I'm not going to play two by four, but I hear you and I believe in your love for this song. I want to play Hero of the Day, because did you know that Hero of the Day? Because did you know that Hero of the Day was originally titled Moldy with a U after Bob Mold?

Because James was or is currently a huge Fisker Doe fan. Did you know this? I did not know that, but I can absolutely see it because the drumming on Husker Doe Records is pretty incredible. You know, Grant Hart could sing while he drummed. Not something that anyone has ever really accused Lars of and probably some. something that he would like to have in his skill set. And I really hope that the U had an umlaut over it. The U in Moldy. Well, it didn't end up becoming the name of the songs. Well, I know, but I'm just, you know, I'm just imagining it on the on the track listing.

And, you know, somebody has to put a little two dots over the U because it is Metallica. Sure. Why don't we hear a hero of the day? That was hero of the day. I just need to point out a little bit of foreshadowing in the lyrics of this song, which the lyric is, excuse me while I tend to how I feel. Amazing. Amazing. And that's definitely a, you know, that's definitely a Husker-Duce sentiment. It's also just like, this is a beautiful song, sorry, come at me, Rose. It's like, we're getting tender in a different way from Hatfield. And I really like it. And the refrain at the end, Mama, they try and break me. Yeah, it's heavy.

And, you know, he's, the thing that's, you know, like you said, the story sort of starts to get really interesting at the Black album. At this point, I think there's a level of, oh, something like Allison Chains or Nirvana or Alonis is very big now. We can start playing with sounds that we'd love to have played with before, maybe, but Now we have permission to from the radio. Yeah. And I think that's like, you know, I said it on part one, but Lars is the member of Metallica who like watches the zeitgeist and reports back and is like, okay, we can do this now because he's so, he's very outwardly aware, whereas I think James Hatfield is very like, okay, going camping, see you in two years.

You know, like, I don't think he's like reading the rags or paying attention. Exactly. No, Lars is definitely, you know, listening to the radio and reading the business page while it's feel. Bill Ward Business. Yeah, exactly. A really fucking important thing that we haven't even mentioned yet is, babe, the hair is gone. 1996 Metallica emerges and not only do they sound different, everyone's like, who are you? They all have cut their hair. Two members are wearing full eyeliner.

Kirk Hammond is starting to resemble Dave Navarro in a really alarming way. Like, what's going on here? Yeah, the Hammett thing I was just sort of figured was a like sort of an L.A. rocker in joke that he's been waiting for this his entire life to, you know. I think he's just a weirdo. Like I'll give him the good faith. You know what I mean? I think he was just like, he was like, yeah. This is like around the black album, I think, or after.

you know, he starts to get really into like meditation, spirituality, yoga. He becomes a vegetarian. He's like surfing. He's like really communing with his spirit. I've spent a large amount of my time trying to like downplay my ego and get it even smaller and smaller. It's part of my beliefs. If you're at home, hit the Google bar. Look up the Anton Corbjian photos of Metallica that accompanies.

this album. And you'll really see, like, Kirk, he's just owning it, babe. He's, like, working it. He's got the eyeliner. I believe he got a librette piercing around this time. He has really leather pants, whatever you want, babe. He's in it. He's working

it. He's modeling. Lars also, it's like, you know, you can tell he wants it, so he's just doing it. James and Jason look like they want to die. Yeah, I don't. Well, I mean, Jason, You know, the epic ballad of Jason Newsted in that band, like, I just, I don't know if anyone has been less happy being in a band that big.

But I don't know if that's true, Joe. You don't think so? I think that for Jason, yes, was he violently abused in psychological ways? Absolutely. I was going to say, where are you going? But was he able to be in his number one most favorite? idol band in the world? Yeah. Could he have quit?

Of course. He was in the band for like 14 years. I think he he was willing to be the punching bag and he you know, the rest of the band finally admits it later on what we're getting ahead. But like he was like the sacrificial lamb. Like they've kind of fed off

of him and without him and without his departure they wouldn't still be a band. And I think he's never sounded bitter about it. I mean he's obviously like you guys suck. Why you do that but he's he still will always go and do interviews about them he's still a number one mega metallica fan and i think for him the tradeoff was worth it he got to play with his heroes that's a very good point he'll put up with a lot yeah ma'am i would do it i want james james's hair is

really it's the hair thing as much as anything else was the moment where heshers that i knew were like okay it's over like they're yeah they're They're done. Like, people forget that they still had long hair during the Black album. Like, people think their hair was short during the Black album. It was not. Luxurious locks during that time, all of them. Beautiful.

Jason a little ahead of the game, actually, I think, cut his hair before load and then was kind of growing it back out. Just a little. Just a little tidbit for you. Big, huge Jason fans at home. It also feels like, I mean, just hiring Anton Corbjian to shoot your photo. known U2 photographer. like it's like, okay,

we got a little taste of like world domination on the black album to the moon, babe. You know, like, why can't we be U2? Yeah. Right? I don't want to put words in the mouths of the babes of Metallica about.

Well, I mean, there's a, there's an interview with Hetfield where he talks about you know, you two and his sort of mixed feelings about them and his mixed feelings about Bono and his whole weird image thing when they became a serious stadium act.

Sure, when he was like the fly and he was playing characters and stuff. Yeah. I liked it. We can talk about that later. But it's very, yeah, I mean, it's, I don't think it's admitting defeat on his part or anything, but, you know, he is well aware that I'm sure it would not surprise me if there was a conversation somewhere with Lars saying, you know, you two are the biggest band on the planet. I'm like the hugest you two fan.

I would borderline call myself a goopy. And they use this one guy for a lot of their photography. What if we did this? What if we, you know, looking at the art for Octong Baby and being like, what if we did this? Like I don't know if I want to, you know, come out here in a dress. Sure. But it's a leather pants. Let's do it.

You could imagine that James probably wasn't like super concerned with the aesthetical aspects of the music as much as he is with the music. Again, speculation. Totally. The cover art, it's so funny because like I know people often are like spinal tap, but like there are so many moments where I'm like, this is too funny. The cover art is by an artist named Andre Serrano who have made famous for his work Piss Christ

which I believe is just like a little statue of Jesus in urine and people didn't like that. They did not. It's a bovine blood and his own semen. Unclear to me why the line was drawn at the blood had to come from a sheep and not from himself or bovine as cow or whatever. I was going to say, yeah, that's a very specific...

Like, was it too gross for him to mix his blood and his semen? You know, that's between Andre and his butcher, I would assume. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, it's, yeah, I'm sure he... Actually, that was probably it. He probably, you know, called his guy Merle at the shop and said, look, just save a bunch of blood for me. Don't ask why.

And the guy was like, for you, Andre, whatever. It reminds me of that quote from Tari. You always say it, the one from the ice skating movie with Will Ferrell. I don't know what it means, but it's provocative. That's kind of like the vibe of this to me. I'm like, I don't know what the statement per se was, but it's provocative. But you know what? It looks cool.

We know that Lars being the upper class European that he is knows visual art. And he's a patron of the arts, babe. Yeah, he was probably a fan and said, what have we got Andre Serrano to do the cover? And I can just see like blank looks from the other three guys, been like, I'm sorry, who? And Lars just being like, it just trust me on this. It's gorgeous.

The idea, I just like wish I could have been a fly on the wall during the photo shoot of this where they're like, okay, James, come over here. We're going to put you in this like silky. And he's like, what? No, please. It's just, it's so good. They're wearing Cuban suits.

Like, they really, like, pushed it. This is also, they went in. This is also the first album where they changed the logo. Mm-hmm. From the, what do they used to call it, the Ninja Star Ms or whatever? We're like, you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. They kind of, like, lopped that off.

And I think that was Lars is doing also. He, like, didn't want to be associated with, an image. Too bad, Lars. Yeah. Well, I think they thought of that as like old metal things like Iron Maiden's mascot whose name I can't remember.

And like, you know, these like vestiges of old metal where it's like the same thing visually is attached to every album. And they were, you know, if anything Metallica is trying to change every album, that's something we've learned. Okay, before I move on from Lode, I would like to mention I love bleeding me.

Because it does sound like a really long Allison Chains song, and I like Allison Chains. And the outlawed horn sounds like a really good nine minutes don't know a pilot song. Yeah, absolutely. They're in it. I mean, they're in it, man. Yeah. They had to cut that song off because you guys might remember. CDs had a limiting.

You could only put, what, 80 minutes, 79 minutes. I can't remember on a CD. And they like literally hit 78, 59 on this. to further my theories around all rock and grunge or whatever they toured with Hull and Varucasalt which is actually very cool around this album

as well as Soundgarden and who corn so James said to guitar world in 1996 a lot of bands get stuck staring at their own belly buttons they're like wow we made such a good record last time we've got to keep doing this we won't do that the whole point of

Metallica is to come up with fresh shit and you know what I kind of respect this because the black album was so massive. They could have easily been like, oh, we found the formula. Let's just make a kind of like another black album, but with like different songs. And they didn't do that. No, they sure didn't. To their credit, they, you know, looked at, I mean, I think, you know, as we said earlier, I think they both looked at the marketplace and looked at, you know, what they were doing and looked at the fact that they had been together for so long and, and, you know, switched it up. But they still really.

really, really liked very long songs. Yeah, that doesn't go away for a while. No. Kirk also says in this interview, in the time between albums, meaning the black album in this one, we wondered,

how does Metallica fit into this? And then we realized that we didn't fit into it at all. Never have and never really will. If you think so, man. Yeah. They also asked if they were influenced by Grunge or Alternative. And Kirk says,

the only real influence that music I've been hearing has had is that it sparked my interest in all the old shitty sounding electroharmonics and MXR FX pedals. Sorry, this was for a guitar magazine. I used to use when I was younger. But I listened to a lot of that Seattle stuff before it became mega popular. When it got that big, I stopped. And James goes, why?

Did they suddenly get shitty when they got popular? And Kirk goes, no, I just felt that I couldn't get away from it. The fact that James is the one with the refined sense of irony is something that I've always liked about that band. It's like Lars, there's nothing ironic about that guy at all. No, he's pure earnest. That dude is who he is, period. You must respect it. Oh, yeah.

I mean, whereas James is like, I got to deal with this guy all the time, so I have to develop some sort of sense of humor about it. Yeah, but I feel like, honestly, it's unfair to Lars. We'll get into it, but I just want to prime the pump as producer Dylan has mentioned that I do have an overarching theory about the codependency of this relationship. and also the idea that Lars in what he does is like very European. Like he's very like the band, we, the collective. And James is a very American, individualistic.

I matter. My needs. You know, like my voice. That's a very good. Yes. But they can't function without each other because while that that's like maybe the animating principle of James consciously, subconsciously, subconsciously. subconsciously, he's, you know, again, this is storytime fanfic, but take from it what you will.

Someone who lost his family at 16 years old, basically when his mother died and his father was gone, and the first family he found after that a year or two later was Metallica, this is his family, you know? And I would imagine that probably has some abandonment issues. And he's not going to leave Lars because Lars is his family. And I think ultimately there is a we here, you know? And for Lars, again, speculation, you know, it might be a similar thing, whereas like, you know, Lars grew up in a family, but they were so cosmopolitan and European that they were just like, do whatever you want, babe. Isn't Lars an only child? Lars is an only child with like super like bohemian rich parents who from interviews I read were like, you can do whatever you want. want. If you want to go to the Black Sabbath concert at nine years old, Godspeed to you, but I don't know

how you're going to pay for it or how you're going to get there. Yeah, that is a very specific type of upbringing. Lars was as thrilled in his own way to find a family as James was. And I think you're absolutely right. It's not, it can't just be that they both own the name or whatever. Totally. So the reception of this album. I just want to start with one review from one Mr. Carrey King to Kerrang in which he says the new record is so lame and I'm not just saying that

because of the way they look now I just hate the record because it has no attitude no fire no nothing it sucks Carrie King Very direct but you have to imagine

like why are you so obsessed with me babe do you know what I mean it's like why do you even care Carrie King like just the fact that you still this many years later Carrie King of Slayer who, you know, they held the thrash mantle and kept it going forever, is still orienting

himself around what Metallica does is very telling, no? Oh, yeah. Metallica was, I mean, they were the guys that won commercially. Totally. And Slayer never made a record like the Black Album. I'm sure they could have. I would not surprise me if it was discussed at some point. And they decided not to or didn't want to or thought it was not something they could write or whatever the reason.

They didn't do that. And, you know, jealousy can't not be a part of that on some level. Well, yeah. I mean, who knows? Again, I don't want to put words in Carrie King's mouth also. I'm scared of him. But it just is interesting to me that he could have been asked what he thought of it. and he could have been like, oh, I haven't heard it, or I don't care, you know?

But instead, you know. Yeah, totally. Okay. Other reviews by actual journalists. Rolling Stone gave it four stars because, as we know, Rolling Stone gives everything four stars. David Frick, long-time champion of Metallica, David Frick, come on the program. He kind of says that this album is about the advent of middle age of Metallica, even though they're like 33 years old, which seems a little rude to me to call them middle age.

But he liked it. He says you've got to be dead from the neck up and the waist down, not to swing with the tangled riffing and blast off choruses and ain't my bitch and king nothing. What do you think about that? I think that using the word swing and metallic in the same sentence, well, using swing and metallica in the same sentence, given that Lars is their drummer, is extremely generous indeed. I bring up this quote in here because I wanted to pose a question that I have.

around honestly metal in general, but then also specifically Metallica, he says you've got to be dead from the neck up and the waist down. Now let me ask you something. Is there a sexuality or a sex appeal to heavy metal? Because I don't know that there is or that there's meant to be. Like, it's not like Led Zeppelin or like, you know, Rolling Stones or whatever traditional. Even like, you got to give it to it. Stone table pilots. Allison Chains. Very sexual music.

I don't, definitely not in early Metallica, and I just don't know if maybe it doesn't exist in Thrash. What do you think? I think that your boy Bono had a really good quote about this. And I'm going to try and get it right off the top of my head. He said something once about how if rock gets too masculine, it ceases to be rock music, that there's something else happening.

And I think with, yeah, well, yeah, or hardcore. And so, yeah, I think that there is something that, is it a sexuality the way that, you know, music that actually swings has a sexuality or doesn't thrash? No, probably not, but I think that's one of the things that, you know, makes load and dare I say reload. Gross. Kind of great is that they're like, what if we just like wrote rock songs? Totally. And just, you know, saw what, you know, let's see what happens.

And, you know, a lot of a lot of folks said, yeah, this is all right by me. And then a lot of their older fans said absolutely not. Yeah, they were like, no, thank you. I'm going to make a counterpoint back to myself that actually thrash and speed metal does have a sexuality, but it's the sexuality of anger. It's the sexuality of violence.

Do you know what I mean? Totally. Absolutely. I won't name names. But there's some sects of late stage garage rock that to me are devoid of femininity in a way that I literally can't bear it. Like I can't listen to it.

It's like a dog whistle that only men here. Do you know what I mean? And this is not that to me. Like Metallica has never been that to me. I mean, maybe a little bit later. But not these like first six albums, you know, like I do think that there is, again, that sexuality of violence. And here, you know, there is something. Something's happening.

There's semen in the cover. There is semen on the cover. They want to tell you something about, you know, blood and semen. I think you're right. You can't deny that. Okay. Why would you? Okay.

Producer Dylan says we have to move on from Lode despite my protestation because I do like Lode, but she's right. And guess where are we going, Producer Dillon? Relo! Because once was not enough. Twice as nice.

Yeah. I'm going to say something about load and reload that are important. Well, maybe I'll save it for St. Anger. But it starts to become very present on Reload. Reload comes out November 19. 1997, one and a half years after Lode, which is kind of weird because they were supposed to be a double album, so not unclear why it took so long. But I guess there was some problems recording, yada, yada, who knows?

Bob Rock, I didn't mention, did produce Lode. It's also producing Reload. This debut is at number one on the Billboard charts. What is on Reload that makes it different from Lode? A smash it single? Fuel. Give me fuel. give me fire, give me that which I desire.

Let's hear it because we haven't heard a song in a while. And then it really is so good. It really has no business being this good. And also not to be like one of those fucking guys, but like why didn't you just put the good songs of both albums into one? Okay, this is fuel. That was fuel. Let me tell you what, Joe Gross.

I will listen to James Hetfield sing anything if he sings it in the way he goes, give me fuel, give me fire, give me that what I desire. Ooh, yeah. Because that is really his forte. Totally. He is very good at yelling at you in a very specific way. And by you, I mean, you personally. I think there's like a super cut on the internet somewhere of him going, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I certainly hope so. What else is the internet for? What is the internet for? And you know what? People make fun of it, but it's fucking gorgeous. Oh, yeah. It's great. Yeah.

Fuel is a goddamn banger, a slaper, bop. No one can deny it. It is, it's just awesome. Then there's the rest of this album. I think you are extremely underrating Marianne Faithful on this record. Okay, yes. D is the memory remains a gorgeous song. Yes.

And then Marianne kicks in and you're like, I can't decide if this is absolutely amazing or kind of mean. It's a little like pre-cursor to Lulu, if you will. Yes, very much so. These two things. But I do like that song. And I think, again, it's cool. Like, did the experiment succeed?

Unclear. The jury is still out. Yeah, but it's so cool that they were like, apparently they also considered Patty Smith, Joni Mitchell, and Courtney Love for this song. You have to imagine that they. considered Joni Mitchell, but I'm sure Joni Mitchell did not consider them.

It's perfect that they went with Marianne Faithful because while I would love to hear a version that song with Courtney Love, it's a little bit too on the nose. And Patty Smith would have been cool too. It's kind of the same as a Marianne Faithful, but it's like, wow, okay. Well, yeah, I mean, I can very easily see James sitting, you know, just like

you're, okay, you know, two, three takes, done. And then like, so Marianne, you're booked for another hour and a half. Can we just talk about Nick? Totally. And she was like, I have to go, babe. I like that she did this. And again, the song is cool.

I have a question for you, though. Sure. Why Unforgiven Part 2? That's all my notes say. Why? I just assumed somebody lost a bet. And then they lost a bet again on Unforgiven Part 3. It's not that it's a bad song.

It's more that it's like a, again, I don't like to play that people like to play where they're like, okay, let's move around the songs and then make the perfect album. But in this load reload case, it really perplexes me why they didn't just wait and make it one album and sort of like not do Unforgiven Part 2. Because it almost feels like they were like, we've got to put some songs on this, babe. Well, I think there's also an element of, I'm sure you discussed this last episode, the Guns and Roses factor. Oh, yes. in that they, you know, Guns and Roses put out this double CD back when people just didn't do that. And there was this period of time where suddenly a lot of people did that, which is one of the worst ideas in human history, is the double CD.

Do you know who is the only other artist to release two CDs? And I'm talking two different albums that took number one and number two after Guns and Roses. I'm embarrassed to say I'm drawing a total blank right now. Yeah, well, you should be embarrassed because it was a young man named Nelly, and the albums were sweat and suit. Oh, that's right. Oh, man. Oh, Nelly. Anyways, not to detour us from, yes, I hear you.

Like, they were probably trying to, you know, we did talk about it before Lars was infatuated with Axel Rose and with Guns and Roses in general. And I think there was also a, we need to give fans as much material as humanly possible on these things. so we can, you know, so we can justify charging 1899 for them retail. And maybe also because Metallica is a touring band. First and foremost, Metallica trades in live shows. So maybe just to like keep the live show train going, they felt they needed to keep releasing music. I don't know.

Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, the Rolling Stones are a good example of that of, you know, the record is a flyer for the show. Right. And it's, you know, let's just put on another record. I want to hear the beginning of Slither. Not a sentence to hear much, but okay. I'm sorry, is this not Enter Sandman?

Oh, totally. Oh, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like, I didn't see that written anywhere in any of the reviews, but like all I hear when I hear Slither is like, oh, we did Enter Sandman a little different. Yeah. Yeah, and I don't, you know, there's a moment in every band's life where nobody is going to say no to them. And I'm sure somebody in this, I'm sure Bob Brock was perfectly happy to do on her Sandman again. And, you know, nobody in their circle was going to say, you know.

Yeah, I don't not like Slyther because I like Enter Sandman, but I was just interested. Yeah. We can move on from Reload only after I tell you that the artwork is once again, Andres Serrano with a twist, babe, bovine blood and his own urine. So we've changed a bit, the vibe of the art. Rolling Stone gave this three stars, which I've said a couple of times on this show, means they wish you were never born.

As somebody who recently gave something three stars and thought it was a perfectly good grade in Rolling Stone and then received an absolute torrent of angry tweets, you are clearly correct. and I was not. I understand that three stars in like any other universe is like totally acceptable,

but Rolling Stone gives everything four stars as far as I can tell. And when it's three stars, it's like alarm bells. It's like, do not. And if something has two stars, it's like basically them giving a zero in pitchfork problems.

The finger. So Lorraine Allie reviewed this for Rolling Stone and she, you know, she says more or less what we say, but then at the end, she says metal fans should still be grateful for Metallica. Wherever the band may roam musically, it presents hard rock fortification

against SoCal Scallite, first of all how dare, and scary pop phenomena such as the Spice Girls. It's a, okay, I just wanted to read that because like, let's get our heads back in the fucking game. This is 1997. I don't know, I'm assuming she's talking about sublime when SoCal Scalite. Who wasn't talking about?

at Sublime, man, really. I was every day, babe. I'm from California and sublime. I'll live it until I die. I don't care what anyone says. Do you have a no doubt shirt? How many is the quite more accurate question? Fair, fair.

That's my bad. Anyways, it's like that's what people were framing things against. Like, oh, thank God Metallica put out an album because it gives us a respite from the spice girls, which is like, what? And the, well, the funny thing is you read that and you're just like, oh, Oh, just wait. Just wait 20 years and then look at a chart. And then look at a chart.

Yeah, totally. Just in terms of the total absence of anything that you would refer to as rock music. Oh, yeah. Just wait until guitars don't exist anymore as far as the charts are concerned. Right. Okay. So anyway, she was like, these are basically stepping stones in the ongoing Metallica legacy. Not untrue.

Now it's 1998. again, these people just do not stop. No, they don't. Did we visit the garage back in the 80s? Yes. Did we revisit the garage in the 80s? Correct. Did we revisit the garage in the 80s?

Or maybe it was the early 90s? We did. But now we're just garage ink. We've dropped the, I think probably it would have been clunky to re-re-re-visit the garage. So Garage Inc. November 1998. I love this album title. Me too. I fucking love it too.

Every time I look at it. Listen, but like, Metallica is really good at covers. And not every band is. Oh, man. No, they, again, thrilled to play music that is different from what they have been playing for 20 years. Totally. Yes. Much like another beloved band's playing.

hero Evan Dando. They're great at transforming music. This double disc covers album includes the 598 EP Garage Days Revisited, before mentioned, because it had gone out of print, except now the cover of this album is Anton Corbynian photograph of them dressed as mechanics because get it in the garage. Yes. Low hanging fruit. What are going to do? It's fine. I'll always. I'll accept it. It's kind of a cool cover. I'm not going to lie. No, it's great. Like, Jason Neustead looks scary and mean. And, you know, I think you have to, you have to imagine that maybe after like eyeliner debacle, they're like, no, no, don't worry, guys, we're man, you know? Yeah. This is, it'll, it'll be fine. Just getting the suit.

It'll be fine. James has like a, what looks like a hunting hat on. So what is on this record that is your favorite. I know you're going to say whiskey in the jar. I know you're going to say whiskey in the jar. Absolutely going to say whiskey in the jar because it's whiskey in the jar. I have a really complicated relationship with this cover. I believe to my soul that there are very few bad versions of this song. For those people that don't know, whiskey in the jar is like a traditional song. I mean, Irish traditional song. Totally.

Yes. It dates back. God knows how long there are, you know, canonical versus non-canonical verses, non-canonical versus things people make up. Everyone has done this song in some fashion. Jerry Garcia is famous for an acoustic version of it. Finn Lizzie is famous for the rock version of it that everybody knows. Metallica was 100% paying tribute to when they cut this.

And I also think this is kind of, it's also kind of hard to separate from the video, which is very easily my favorite Metallica video of them playing a house party and everybody getting fucked up. It's great. It is great. It is great. Well, let's, let's hear whiskey in the jar. Hit it, Tari. That was whiskey in the jar. I would be remiss if I didn't point out that at this point, there's still a lot of whiskey in the jar. for this band.

The whiskey is still in a jar. The whiskey has not left the jar. No. There's other covers, new covers on this record. We won't hear them, but there's, like you said, another Diamond Head cover of its electric. A cover of Black Sabbath song, Sabra Cadabra. My personal favorite, oh, it's a tie.

The cover of Nick Cave's Lover Man. Or the cover of Dan Zig's Die Die Die Die, Die, Die, My Darling. Because James Hetfield's same. like Glenn Danzig, so funny. But also, so cool. Love it. They're also, they all sound so happy doing this. It's so great. Yeah, well, they're freed from the prison of the Unforgiven Seven or whatever. Yes, exactly. Who cares how this was reviewed. Everyone bought it. It doesn't matter. We need to talk about the S&M album, 1999. Tell me about. Yes, we do. Symphony and Metallica cleverly shortened to S&M. There's really no logical way to explain this,

except to note that metal guys are very good at their instruments. Sure. That's a hallmark, hallmark of the genre. Hallmark of the genre. You know, I'm sure Kirk could sit down with these players in the, it's the San Francisco Philharmonic, right? San Francisco Symphony, yeah. Conducted by Michael Kamen, correct?

Yeah. And, you know, and just start, you know, start shredding with them. you know, I think it's another example of them saying, you know, why the hell not? That's, sure, let's do it. This is fun. I'm going to add a more profound layer to it. I hope so. I think this was, you know, however it came to them, because Michael came and had worked on the Black album, right?

Isn't that correct that he had arranged some strings for. That sounds right. Well, producer Dylan can fact check that. But he came to them about this. But I think the real. reason they said yes has something to do with what you said but also a lot to do with the fact that you know cliff burton you know what was cliff burton's classic refrain bach is god cliff burton loved classical music he loved you know he studied music theory and i think you know

ultimately what a cool way to pay homage to cliff and like you have to think that he would have been fucking stoked to do this you know and so it's like they're not going to say no Yeah, no, I think you're absolutely right. Something that I think people sort of forget about them sometimes is you automatically, because they're a metal band and because they're from California, you automatically associate them with Los Angeles. And they're not. They're good San Franciscans, like they're old school.

Well, listen. Listen, should we pick this apart? Yes. Kirk is from San Francisco. Jason Neustadt is from Arizona. James Hetfield is from Downey, which is like far east of Los Angeles and is like a, you know, desolate suburb, much like the one I grew up in Torrance, California. Shout out. And Lars aforementioned, as we know, is literally European and then spent his high school years in Newport Beach.

So are they spiritually San Franciscan? Sure. But deep down in their bones, no. Yeah, this isn't good at that. Cliff, though. Cliff was. Cliff was born and raised in the Bay Area. This isn't the dead we're talking about. That's a very, no, that's a very good point. They are, they are definitely, you know, drop-ins from elsewhere. But, you know, I think they're good. Kirk is from the Bay Area, too. Oh, that's right.

He studied with Satriani, didn't they? He sure did, babe. Joe Satriani. Shout out Joe Satriani. Oh, man. Patrons say it of the solo player at the guitar center. I was good. Is this a success?

Sure. It's one of those records where you're, like, I don't know if I'm ever going to be in the mood to put this on. If I'm in the mood to hear a symphony orchestra, I'm probably going to put that on. If I'm in the mood to hear Metallica, I'm probably going to put that on. Am I ever specifically going to want to hear this? Yes, right now. We specifically want to hear this right now.

What song would you like to hear? Master of Puppets live with the SFSOs, which you've chosen. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I think that's a good song to play as Master of Puppets, as you really want to know how one of their most iconic thrash songs manifests with the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra. Yes, absolutely. Let's hear Master of Puppets' S&M version.

Not what you think. That was Master of Puppets, Symphonic Version. Listen, it's fun. There will always be a part of me that listens, that hears something like that and thinks of the, you know, the Simpsons episode where they sneak in a god of the, where Bart sneaks in a god of the Vita to the organ player at church. And she's just like, you know, playing as fast as humanly possible and collapses at the end. It's so good. I think a thing that is sort of like a defining character. of Metallica from here on out, which is who asked for this, but also who cares?

You know, like, it's kind of cool. It's like, was there any sort of demand for this? The answer is no. Is it so cool that they did it because it's a cool and weird thing to do? Yeah, it is. This is their nobody colon, absolutely nobody colon, meme era for the band. Yes, yes. Kaman said Metallica's music has often had elements of composers like

Wagner and Brahms, which I just will trust him on that because I don't have any understanding of composers or music or theory. Rolling Stone gave this three stars. You know, I haven't, there is not a doubt in my mind that whomever reviewed it thought they were doing something nice. No, but it says, I mean, the words are nice. It's like the effect is one of timelessness. That's a nice words. Overall, it was reviewed pretty well. I think people gave them credit for trying something, which I think they should have gotten. Totally. Going against what you said, Spin says, freed from ritualized superhuman extremism.

It builds a soundtrack to everyday life, which I don't believe you, Spinn. I wonder what kind of life you lead where S&M is the record of choice. I'm just trying to imagine your commute. Probably one healthier than mine, which has been Lulu every day. Again, we're not there yet. I think you're doing great. I approve of this life choice. Okay.

It's now the year 2000. We hit Y2K. We were all scared. The computers were going to take over, but they didn't. Everything was fine. A little invention of the year 2000 was a computer program called Napster. For me, Napster was a big deal because 2000 also happened to be the one and only year for a long time after this that I had high speed. I'm heavy air quotes, you know, internet because I was in a dorm in 2000.

The dorms had the best internet possible, which again, wasn't that good, but it was better than what anyone else had. So I would just sit there in my dorm with my big honk in PC, hardwired into that Ethernet, and I would download songs for free. It took 60 to 90 to six hours per song, and it was worth it. And you know what? The Statue of Limitations is up. and everyone else, you can't come for me.

But much like me, many people around the nation and globe were using Napster to freely download music. It came to Metallica's attention because they had turned in a demo of a song called I Disappear, which was supposed to be, I think, on the Mission Impossible 2 soundtrack. And they heard it on the radio. And they were like, why is this on the way? Yeah, somebody flew too close to the sun there. Yeah, it's like, okay, take it off Napster, babe, but did you have to give it to the radio? You ruined it for everyone.

Exactly. Anyways, they used their detective work. They find out it came from Napster, and then they're like, oh, our whole catalog seems to be on here. They file a lawsuit. Specifically, Lars seems to take up this more than anyone, or at least he's comfortable to be the face of it, which I think is credit to him. because you have to imagine the rest of the band was probably annoyed too, but he was the one that was like, I'll go to fucking Congress. Well, he was the business guy.

He was the guy who was like, you're fucking with my cash. Here's the thing. This is where I start to be like, okay, Lars is deeply misunderstood. Because now people looking back, I think, interpret this situation much differently. But before I get to that, let's talk about how it was interpreted at the time. Yes, Lars is a millionaire. They're all, Metallica's millionaires many times over. And they will not drop this.

And it was, you know, this was like the height of the music industry being rich. Like CDs are blown off the shelves. Like, you know, concerts are doing well. Musicians are thriving. So it wasn't, I think, in anyone's imagination or understanding that that would ever go away. But it was in Larses, you know? Yeah, no, he saw the writing on the ball. Yeah.

Exactly. And I think he made some missteps in terms of, you know, and for better or for worse, like he made missteps because he's so earnest and he thought that everyone could see what he saw, but they couldn't. But he did try to include the individuals who downloaded the Metallica songs in his lawsuit. And people were like, oh, really? You're suing your fans? Well, yeah. And yeah, no, you make an excellent point. And he, they were just such bad spokespeople for this. Yeah. Like if somebody in their camp had said, look, why don't we do this? Why don't we find a much smaller artist and make this case? Like we can we can go before Congress. You can file a lawsuit. You can do whatever you want to do. But find a smaller artist that's able to say, look, I'm a middle class musician. I rely on income from CD sales to make my rent.

And if you do this, you know, you wouldn't, I think it was Closterman in something that was, said some, said something like, well, of course it's stealing. Just because you, you know, if you could wish a blender into your house, it doesn't mean that you haven't taken the blender. And I take issue with that for a couple of reasons. But, you know, I get what he's saying. And yeah, I mean, Lars definitely saw what was coming, as did, you know, somebody like Gene Simmons, another. terrible spokesperson for this. But he was also like, you should kill these people. This is something with Lars that I really actually have come to admire in my deep research,

which is that he seems to be so radically self-acceptant. Is that a word acceptant? Self-accepting. Let's do it. That he can't fathom that other people misinterpret his intentions. And so while he's quite savvy in the sense of like watching the market and whatever, it's not contrived. Like Lars was loved guns and roses earnestly. And that's why he was like, oh, we could sound like this a little bit because just the way he loved Diamondhead and wanted to sound like them.

He loved corn, you know? This is all pure. It's not contrived. It's not like trying to fill a hole in the market just to make money. And I think that's a misconception about Lars that makes people dislike him. And it's because he doesn't, it's kind of ironic because he doesn't try to pretend to be what he's not. I guarantee you, babe, that Carrie King, who lives in, by the way, a $4 million house in Las Vegas, has that house filled with $90 diptee candles, maybe Baez, maybe foie, I don't know.

You know he sends his daughter to private school. You know he buys his wife Chanel or whatever. Like, he's rich. They're all rich, you know? But he is, he's more savvy to not ever show that. Whereas Lars is like, well, this is who I am. Like, I'm rich. And even James, to a certain extent, you know, he's like met the infamous.

And I don't remember with the timing of that. It might be a little after this. Do you remember? Maybe it was before this. It was around Lode where he was photograph shopping at Armani. I love that photo. I think it's just like, well, what do you think he's going to shop? Like, this is none of our business, frankly.

Not to be a little bitch, but like people losing their minds over Armani. Okay, it's not even like that fucking expensive. Sorry, not to be rude. This is absolutely the most L.A. joke you've made so far. Yeah. I mean, people should have more been like, look at our man of the people strolling through Beverly Hills and flip-flops. Because that was disturbing to me. Unacceptable.

You know, you have to imagine the staff in Armani being like, well, he is in Metallica. Anyways, this Napstergate, you know, culminates in. And one thing that I have to mention, which is that Lars appears on the 2000 MTV Video Music Awards in a skit with Marlon Wands, who was the host, Marlon plays a college student in a dorm room. He's listening to Metallica's I disappear. Flat boy. Lars busts in and asks, he's like, what the fuck, basically without saying fuck? Because it was MTV. And, you know, there's like a whole little back and forth where, like, Marlon Wands is like, but it's sharing.

We're sharing. And then he, like, Lars is like, come on. in boys and like the Metallica road crew comes in and starts taking all of rleynne wayans's stuff hey boys it's so cringe and so embarrassing and at the end he's like hey frat boy what do you think you're doing sharing's only fun when it's not your stuff at this MTV Awards he introduced the last musical act our beloved Blinquin A2 and he was booed Let's get on with this. Every year MTV likes to end the show with a musical performance that is classy, sophisticated, and elegant.

People did not like this thing. But he said, okay, I just want to quote him a couple of things he said, which are so, it's like, I can't believe people didn't see this. He said, this is not about a lot of money right now. It's about the principle of the thing. And it's about what could happen if this kind of thing is like, allowed to exist and run as rampant and out of control for the next five years as it has been for the last six months. I can guarantee you it's costing us tenfold to fight it in lawyers fees.

Not really helping this case, but he's right, you know, that it is for the pennies and royalties. Where it can affect people, where it is about money, is for a band that sells 600 copies of their CD. So back to your point. And he's right. And he and then he further says, he's like, this is not a service they're offering for the good of mankind to spread love and music. He's right. It's not like Napster was like, hey, babe, like, we're anarchist. Go ahead and take everything. Like, they were a capitalist construct that wanted to eventually sell their company and make money. Doyle Wolfgang von Frankenstein in 2019. He was like, everyone thought Lars was a dick. He didn't do it for him. He's got the fucking money. He did it for fucking jerkoffs like me. And now when everyone's up in arms every day

about the music industry and, you know, fairness and payments and stuff. It's like, Lars was, you know, he had a bit of a GP, as we say on this show. Good point. Yeah. I think, again, it comes back to Lars. You know, there was nobody in their camp that I think was probably able to say, look, you're not the best choice for the face of this. Right.

I understand why you want to be. but just step back. Let's find a band that does sell 600 copies of their CDs or does now or, you know, says, if this keeps going, I'm going to have to tour nine months out of the year instead of six. And I'm getting older and that's less safe. And I want to be there to see my kids graduate, et cetera.

Yeah. I mean, look, for better or for worse, like I said before, this wasn't a contrived PR thing. it was just he meant it. And it didn't go well. We bring this up to say there's a lot leading up to some chaos in the Metallica land. 2001 is the first year ever since their existence that Metallica didn't play a show, which is kind of you have to note that that's meaningful.

Ugh, we've gotten to my favorite part, I think. Oh, is your favorite part also my favorite part? Playboy interview with Rob Tannenbaum. Rob Tanenbaum, who either wisely or through constraints, interviewed each member separately, because you have to assume at the time they're basically not talking to each other. There is a piece I read once about, after David Foster Wallace died, there was a piece about his editor at Harper's getting that first essay. I think it was a supposedly fun thing. I think it was the cruise ship essay. Yeah.

And reading it and saying, and the editor was like, all I'd think was, I have received liquid cocaine. This is absolutely incredible. And I suspect that Rob felt the same way. Like, listening back is just like, oh, my God. Do yourselves a favor and look up this entire interview. Because as Joe was kind of saying, it's insane how honest they are. Yeah.

And what they say, and it's just gorgeous. This, again, kind of a foreshadowing, both a foreshadowing and, like, I think, proof of my earlier statement that they never really tried to hide who they were. You know, whatever was going on. For better or not. Yeah. I mean, we'll get there, but we're not at the monster yet. I do want to say one more thing about the Playboy interview. Sure.

There's anybody. No, no, no, no, no. Just about the concept that if there's anybody listening to this who is under, say, I don't know, 35, that the Playboy, there, yeah, I know. But no, the Playboy interview was a big deal. Like it was a, they were very long. They were, when somebody said. Are you listening? Producer Dylan? Producer Dylan is under the age of 35.

You're speaking directly to her, basically. Well, they were, they were. they were incredibly long interviews and the longer an interview gets, the more honest your subject is, you hope. And they get into, it was a prestige gig, like it was a prestige thing

to have a Playboy interview because you could, you knew on some level that a, whoever is buying this magazine might not give a shit that this interview is there. They wanted to see boobs.

Exactly. But it's also this. They came here for the boobs. Yeah. But they'll stay around for the Metallica drama. Exactly. Exactly. And so this was a, this was still kind of a big deal. And, you know, Playboy had a circulation in the millions. And, you know, you never knew who was going to read this. And so it was a big, it was a big deal to have, you know, the Playboy interview. And they went all in. This is one of the best interviews I read in my Godgiven life. Let me, let me just pull out a few choice. You know what? I'll start with the Napster stuff since we were just talking about it.

Rob Tannenbaum asks, what did you accomplish by going after Napster? Lars says, what we've accomplished most is to bring an awareness to the American public. It turned into the first big issue of the 21st century. People seem to be more passionate about it than the presidential thing. Okay. Yeah, I was going to say, Lars, I have got some bad news for you around September, but go ahead. Playboy's like, some of your fans took Napster's side instead of Metallicas. Now he's talking to James.

It's kind of confusing because he does say that the interviews are done separately, but he smartly arranges it in a way that seems like it's all one conversation. Hetfield says, because they're lazy bastards and they want everything for free, I think Napster won the press war. True. It hurt the fans' perceptions of us. They see Metallica some big bad guys who wanted to take their free stuff away. I like playing music because it's a good living and I get satisfaction from it.

but I can't feed my family with satisfaction. Again, Metallica willfully doesn't ever get political, but it doesn't matter because it's impossible to not know their politics, whereas James Hatfield is so clearly like a tried and drew libertarian, so of course he feels this way. Yeah. So Rob kind of smartly follows up,

and he's like, so Napster damaged Metallica, and James is like, well, I don't want it to read Napster has damaged Metallica. It's pretty difficult to hurt us. they did damage to how Metallica fans perceive us. And then Lars comes in, again, separately, but it seems like the same conversation. I don't agree.

We've taken hits from day one between haircuts and using Motley crew Bon Jovi producer Bob Rock to headlining Lollapalooza. Oh, we forgot about the headlined Lollapalooza, to writing ballads, to making records with a symphony orchestra. It's all part of being an instigator and a forerunner. Yeah, Lars, see, that's the thing. And I think you alluded to this is that a more self-aware man,

a more self-aware human being would have ended this paragraph after symphony orchestra. He didn't really need to say that's part of being an instigator and a forerunner. That's the part where people were just like, oh, God. I want to push against you and say that that's not self-awareness. That's outer awareness. That's awareness of what other people will think of you, which is different than self-awareness. Again, that's one of the things I admire about Lars is that for better or for worse, he doesn't think about what other people think about him.

No, and I think there are probably very specific reasons for that, but yes, he does not care. I think he's incapable. It's very interesting to me as someone who's like literally constantly thinking about what other people think of me. Hi, I reply guys. It's really moving. Hetfield answers your question that was like, why is Lars the spokesperson? person where he's just like me and my wife were having our second child and my family's number one. And he was like, go with God Lars, basically.

That's not a direct quote. So in 2001, I haven't left this interview yet, but I need to contextualize what happens after to then go back and really give the gorgeousness of the Jason Neustead parts of this. In 2001, I think two seconds after this interview, or maybe the interview came out after he left, but he hadn't left yet. I don't know the exact timeline. Jason Newssted leaves the band. He publicly said it was for private and personal reasons

and because of the physical damage he had done to his body over the years. However, if you read the Playboy interview and then obviously later in some kind of monster, it becomes confirmed, it's impossible to see or not see why he left, where they're so mean to him. And all he wants to do, first of all, they're like on a hiatus. They're not doing anything. And he's like, wants to play with his little band Echo Brain and he wants to put out an album.

And they're just like, no. And not they, James Hatfield is just like, you cannot. And it's so interesting to me psychologically, why? What do you feel that that speaks to psychologically about James Heffield? Because obviously I have theories that I'm dying to say. Two quick things and then go in hard. One, this is a genuinely uncool thing for them to do because if Newstead isn't getting writing credits on these records, then he's missing out, which he's not, he's missing out on a

giant hunk of money. And he knows that. And he just wants to get some publishing somewhere. And Echo Brain, you know, God bless you Jason, but that's a terrible band name. The, you know, is. The early 2000s, babe. But can you, you have to forgive it. That's a reasonable point.

No, you're right. System of a down. Okay. Yeah, that's fine. You're right. But no, yeah, he just wants to do a little, and they're not giving him like the George Harrison two songs a record. They're giving him nothing.

I don't even think it was primarily financial. I think he's a creative person and he wanted to creatively contribute to a project where they wouldn't let him. Like you're saying, there's no writing credits. He's not able to like. really like influence or impact the music of Metallica and maybe the way he wants to. And he probably is just dying to be creative. And they're like, no.

Here's the thing. Bring it. It's like really sad when you think about James Hatfield and you're like, man, back to my like earlier point of like this is his family. Like it's not even like loosely hidden that that's what it is where he's just like he says, where would it end? Does he start touring with it? Does he sell shirts? Is it his band? That's the part I don't like. It's like cheating on your wife in a way. We're all married to Metallica, married to each other. I think he lived in fear of Metallica not existing anymore because this is his family and also of something taking priority over Metallica, which to him was the most important thing. It's like keeping him alive. And in that sense, you have to have some compassion, right? You're just like, That's really sad. Oh, totally. Yeah.

No, this is a man who clearly has very serious abandonment issues that he's not quite close to working through yet, at least not in public. Yeah, totally. Yeah, and we're just about there. I have to say, was he a dick, though? Yes, because then Playboy is like, so what is Jason supposed to do during this hiatus? And he goes, I don't fucking know. I'm not his travel agent. gorgeous. Well, yeah, no, that's amazing. But I think there's also, there's also another moment in here

that I think, you know, he goes into rehab right after this, right? Right. Almost right after, like a couple months after, yeah. Yeah, I've always wondered if he was drunk during this and how drunk, because he says some things that. Yeah, he's a little loose lip, if you will. Well, yeah, I mean, I I remember reading this the first time, and the quote that jumped out at me, I mean, this is 20 years ago now, was him talking about Lars saying he was really not a good drummer. To this day, he is not drummer of the year. We all know that. And it's like, you have said the thing that you cannot say in being in this band is that Lars is a bad drummer. And fans can say it. Critics can debate it. drummers can punch each other in the face over it, but you can't say it if you are married to Lars already. Well, yeah. It's not a healthy marriage, babe.

No one said it was. No, not in the slightest. And I can very easily see Lars being like, so how fucked up were you when you did this? Right. Like literally fuck you, bitch. Yeah. Yeah.

There's a gorgeous similar dig, though, that Jason gets in, Whereas where Jason says it, I kind of feel a little like, you go, Bill. Whereas Playboy Rob is like, are there any tricks to writing a Metallica song? And he goes, Jason goes, about 90% of Metallica songs are an E minor because James's vocal range is limited, although he's developed by leaps and bounds, which is such a cunty thing to say. Yeah, there are a couple. Again, it's not untrue, just like Larges drumming, but like he really had to get his dig in. And I approve. I appreciate it.

There is a, you could, you can make an entire document of just passive aggressive comments from both this interview and later when Bob Rock becomes a problem that Bob, that Bob says at one point that, like, my jaw legitimately dropped when I saw that. It's like, God, damn, man. It's so funny. You know, to quote, to quote Black Francis, Frank Black, Charles Thompson, whatever you want to refer to him to of the pixies, either bands, break up or they don't. That's all bands. Either you break up or you don't. It's just simply that simple, which he's not wrong. There's very few bands that don't break up. And if you're not going to break up for 40 years, you're going to have some fucking shit like this happen for sure. People might not know about it. You think Bono and the Edge haven't said the world's fucking

shittiest stuff to each other, I guarantee it. We'll never know about it because they're a different kind of band. I agree. The one thing I would say to that, and when you, when we're talking about Metallica in this particular context, I think we need to kind of specifically say Lars and James. And Lars and James, yes, of course. Yeah, because at the end of the day, the other two don't matter. The thing about U-2, which is also the thing about REM, the thing about your beloved Sonic Youth, that they all shared writing credits. And so everybody got it, you know, everybody and you two got a castle. if they wanted to live in a castle. Like, they could afford a castle.

You get a castle. You get a castle. Exactly. You get a castle. And that is not true in Metallica. It wasn't true for Jason Newssted. But it was true for everyone else. Kirk got writing credit.

That's true. I'm sorry. You're right. And Cliff got writing credit. And later, I don't want to get ahead, but they learned their fucking, they learned their goddamn lesson from Jason. Robert Trujillo gets a sweet-ass deal

when he joins the band. it's just Jason that got fucked. No, that's a very good point. He got totally screwed. And I forgot that Kirk does have a lot of writing credits on stuff. You're right. Yeah. Jason is just punished for not being cliff.

For 14 years, Jason is punished for not being cliff. And Jason is punished for the tension between Lars and James. He's just the, he's the punching bag. He's the scapegoat. And he takes it like a fucking chance. because he loves Metallica. Yeah, he's the guy who gets punished for the shirts that say should have been large. I know, Jesus Christ.

That's so dark. I can't believe people made those shirts. That's really fucking uncalled for. It's like, come on. Very intense. It's also honestly, like, disrespectful to Cliff's family. Oh, yeah, totally. It's rude as hell.

Yeah. So Jason leaves the band causing all sorts of. causing all sorts of things to domino throughout. Total chaos. Total chaos. I don't know how we should talk about this. You tell me. I think we have to talk about St. Anger at least first or set it up first

because for the public consciousness, St. Anger came out a year before some kind of monster, which is the infamous documentary of the making of St. Anger. But I think we can maybe talk about them in tandem. since it's hard to talk about the making of St. Anger without what we know. Let's just play a song off St. Anger to just set the goddamn tone,

the mood, the vibe, and get this party started because... It's frantic o'clock, isn't it? It's fucking... You know what, babe? We're in. We're here. We've parked our car.

We've put the parking break up. Let's fucking get madly in anger with you, babe. What's all I'm doing here? What's your frantic? Let's do it. This is frantic. that was frantic. Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick,

take, tick, tick, take, take, take, take, take. We are doing something here. And we're, you know, the first thing we're doing is apparently turning off our snares and saying, oh, yeah, this sounds fine. A lot has been made of the drumming on this album, and we will talk about it. It's the most boring aspect to me, because who cares? But obviously, we care because you can't not hear it. But I'm so much more interested in the...

content of these songs. So to back up, you said it earlier. James Hetfield, a month into recording this album, they have no bassist. What could be the straw that breaks James Hetfield's like fiercely individualist, addicted to alcohol back? It's someone leaving him. And that person was Jason Newsdad. I had a proposition.

That's how the meeting started. Let's just take one year off. Don't you think that'd be cool and ever again have their time? I can go and make my Echo Brain record. So I said, okay, well, I'm not to step off. I'm walking. And so he goes a month into this recording where Bob Rock, Boberd Rockard, is playing bass for them. He goes, he's like, you know what, guys, actually, I have to go to rehab by.

And he just goes to rehab. I was ripping my family apart. There was some ultimatums, you know, being thrown out of the house. It took that for me to realize what a problem it was and, you know, what I could lose with it. They've already started filming this documentary that you have to imagine was meant to be something very different. It was meant to be like a lionization of this greatest metal band of history. And it turns into something so much more glorious than that. So Hetfield goes to rehab.

I bring this up to say this song, Frantic, is full of... I have filled the god-sized hole inside of me lyrics. This is a man who was sat around group therapy and, you know, done the work, as they say. The lyrics are very, very much. Can I take it back? You can take anything you like. I'm taking it back. This album is actually the middle part between I have accepted that I'm powerless.

and the godsize whole. Because these lyrics are really fucking freaked out. They're admitting powerlessness, right? My lifestyle determines my death style. Could I have my wasted days back? Yeah. I mean, they sound like things that you would say that, you know, as an addict is working through why they're addicted,

how it works, which, you know, was very well known in 2001 and is even well, you know, is even well or is even better known now, you know, what alcohol does to your brain, how you have to rewire it. Totally. I mean, the constant fear and anxiety that people who are addicted to alcohol live in as the alcohol leaves your body and you have to replenish it, it's really a horrible way to live. Yeah, it is not fun. And, you know, something that we took, you know, we talked about earlier, how these were, you know, some kind of monsters about is this sort of visual record of these guys who have never had to mature past the age of 19, is that what we know much better now than we ever did before is the extent to which alcohol really aids you

in not feeling your feelings. And I know that sounds cliched, but like it can't be emphasized enough that if you're somebody like James, I would bet money that when he went into rehab, someone was like, you have been drinking since you were X years old because you don't want to feel the following. And so there was not having to mature because you're in a rock band that's very successful and they have a lot of money. And there's not having to mature because you're drunk all the time. Because you refuse. And you just don't need to.

Yeah. And you refuse. And yeah. I mean, my lifestyle determines my death style. That is, I don't mean to take anything away from James Hadfield, but somebody said that to him or he said that in therapy. But there was, you know, a shrink was somehow involved in the construction of that lyric. Oh, totally.

I mean, the lyrics of this album, I'm glad you brought that up. as we became aware of it through some kind of monster, were largely written as a group, which is not ever how metallic lyrics were written. They were all written by James. So these are from James, but they're also like the result of this like activity that Dr. Phil Towell, major player in this album,

would have them all like sit with a notebook and sort of like freestyle lyrics and just share them and sort of work. workshop and that's where a lot of the lyrics of frantic as well as like other songs on this album came from. I just have to point out the end of this song that is my lifestyle, birth is pain, determines my death style, life is pain, a rising tide, death is pain that pushes to the other side. It's all the same. We have not filled the godsized home. No, this is definitely mid therapy. The group writing of lyrics thing is kind of interesting. This is something that I often

talk about with, you know, fellow rock dork friends of mine is that bands will collaborate on every aspect of songwriting except for this. And I've always been kind of curious, you know, why not? Why not start writing as a group just to see what happens? And, you know, this is maybe not an ideal example of what can happen. But, you know, you look at a band like the Minutemen or something like that, where, you know, the two, well, the three now that I think about it, songwriters, would write for each other all the time. It's like, hey, I wrote this for you to sing, like, what do you think? And, like, they might change some words or whatever.

And it's like, oh, yeah, this is great. And I think there's, you know, lyrics are still this, like, a tour-driven thing in rock bands in a way that it's not true of any other aspect of being in a band. So, yeah, the collective writing, it also gives a chance for Dr. Phil. to weigh in. Dr. Philthal. What a legend. A sweater wearing legend.

I got so nervous whenever he would come on screen. God. He really made me anxious. I wonder if that was his purpose, if you will. I mean, at some point in the movie, if I'm recalling this correctly, James or Lars or the guys collectively kind of put their foot down and they're like, okay, you're not actually in the band, man. Yeah.

Yeah, it's near the end. It's a really uncomfortable scene. Yeah, this has gone on. And the entire audience is, you know, sitting there with their arms folded going, when is this guy going to leave? When is this guy going to leave? Like, there's being communication aid. And then there's like looking at a future platinum record being made and thinking, ooh, I could get it on that. I'm not saying that is what Dr. Philthal did. I'm saying it was very much in the, in the consciousness of people watching that movie. Something really interesting about Dr. Phil Tal is that, A, he's not a doctor. He's just not. He, I believe, has a master's in social work or something. Okay. So he's a therapist. He's a therapist and a performance enhancement coach. But he's not a doctor. He clearly does understand therapy and therapeutizing. And you can see. And I don't think it's up for debate that he helped. Oh, totally. I mean, it couldn't have gotten worse. You have to imagine that if James didn't go to rehab, this wouldn't be abandoned anymore. No, I think that's absolutely correct. And I mean, I think James, as he said, he went to rehab because his wife kicked him out. And that's a very powerful thing to have happened, especially if you have kids. Totally. And yeah, totally.

Yeah, I mean, I'm sure at that point he was like, I just. I got to save my marriage. I can't. There was another year before this, like in the late 90s, mid-90s that he took a year off from drinking, but it was more of like a white knuckling situation. So it's like it's not enough to remove the numbing out if you're not going to like then deal with what's underneath. Yeah, this is what folks in recovery refer to as abstinence versus sobriety. Sure.

You know, the reason I keep bringing up God's crystal is, I and producer Dylan can back me up on this. We usually love a higher power album, which is this is not that. This is. No, it's not. I agree. This is like, like, you know, it's not Californication, for example, which is a total higher power album.

Like that's like, we got sober, babe, we saw the light. Everything is, look, God is everywhere. I absolutely believe you. This is more of like a, we're realizing our faults. And we are frustrated about them, but we're at least acknowledging them. And we're going to make the effort to get to the other side. Producer Dillon made a good point of like, she thinks that Lars comes off actually very sympathetic in the documentary in the sense that you can kind of see how hard he's been working.

Like, again, to my earlier point, how hard he's been working for the collective and to like raise Metallica his whole life. And he's just kept coming up against the difficulty of dealing with an addict who anyone who's dealt with addicts know they like suck all the air out of a room. I don't tell you, it's pretty difficult to respect a four-clin thing. When you show up at 1225, it should look at 1235. It starts right there. Even when he got sober, which as we, you know, we all know, anyone who's dealt with sobriety or any aspect of it or anyone who's had it, it has to be selfish. So the irony is like you're selfish when you're an addict. And then when you get sober, you have to be selfish to stay sober in the beginning.

So then Lars is having to deal with this like new selfishness that is like, I can only record four hours a day. I can't deal with you. And he rightfully so, I don't want to say rightfully so because there's no right or wrong here, but like understandably so kind of fucking loses it. I think there are a couple things going on. I think he is, and this just his. me sitting here. He's very much the McCartney at the end of the Beatles, where McCartney is like, look, I'm the guy trying to keep this afloat. And why do you hate me for doing that? And he's the guy who's like, you know, checking if there's toilet paper in the studio bathroom

and in the Apple office bathroom, stuff like that. And Lars is like, I'm holding this band together with both hands. Why can't you step up? And, you know, Lars's relationship to drinking is completely different from James's. Yeah, he's just like a partier. It's different. Well, he's European. He can hold it.

And in a way that, and, you know, there's also like upbringing involved and all that. There's also what you use it for, right? You said it earlier. It's like substance in and of itself, you know, for better or for worse, isn't necessarily the problem. The problem is what are you using it for? Anything can be a problem. Someone once

says to me, it's not what you do, but how you do it. And it's like Lars just partied because it's fun. James drank to not feel. That's addiction. Yeah. Absolutely. And I also think we sort of alluded to it earlier

that you know, Lars is maybe not the best communicator in the world because he is extremely direct. I don't know where this is going. I just wish I had some clarity in my life. I don't know right now. It fucking annoys me.

In a way that... European? Well, in a way that our society is probably a little more used to now that we know more about how brains work. But, you know, and he cannot understand why, if I'm recalling this correctly, and I think I am, that he can't really. understand why James can't meet him halfway. Is that the only two options?

Is it either Metallica is number one and then everything else is fucked? Or I and my family number one and then everything else gets fucked? Is that the only two options that are left? And what you said about the selfish thing is like, and James is like, I literally can't. Exactly. Yeah. I can't do this because if I do this. Yeah.

house of cards will collapse. Exactly. In a way that you're not going to get. And I feel bad about that. Maybe, but I have to do this. Right. This is first and foremost. This is first and foremost. The resentment towards Lars for keeping the band together,

like I could almost see it being a subconscious thing where like James knew that this band was an enabler. You know, like this band enabled him. to stay exactly the way he was. And maybe deep down, he didn't want to. And I'm sure he didn't want to, but he, there's no out, you know? No, I think you're right. Why don't we play another song off St. Anger?

Sure. And we can talk a bit more about the musicality of it. And then maybe some of our favorite LOLs from the doc. What song do you want to hear? I mean, do we need to hear I'm madly in anger with you? It feels like, yes. I think you should bust it out, sure. Yeah.

It can't hurt. Certainly can't hurt. Okay, this is Saint Anger. That was St. Anger. Titular track, St. Anger. What to say about this song. Fuck it all in fucking no regrets. I hit the lights on those dark sets.

Little nod. A little nod. A shout out to hit the lights. I want my anger to be healthy. I want my anger just for me. I want to talk about anger. proceed yeah we talked about a little earlier right that this is the bread and butter of metallic music from the beginning kirk said to classic rock magazine there's a lot of fucking residual anger that came

from our childhoods and it's something that fame money and celebrity is not an antidote for we were very angry young men and now we're very angry middle-aged men this is maybe to me why people connect with Metallica so much, particularly men, who I think are very angry as people, for multiple reasons because just that's how emotion is synthesized in the masculine sense. Kirk had a really rough childhood. You know, he was abused. It was horrible. Yeah, his story is horrific, yeah.

Horrific. Lars has rights to have a lot of anger, too. I mean, we didn't even talk about Torben in the documentary. But like... That was heavy. That's, you know, that's tough. That's a tough dad to have. His dad was good at everything, you know, was probably had some pretty high standards for him.

Who can relate? Not me. There's this like tender moment in the documentary where they play a song for him and he just like, inscrutable, shakes his head. He literally says, I think you should delete that. That's it. I think you should delete that. the first time I saw that movie I was like wait a minute is he talking about the footage they just shot no no he was talking about the song no he's talking about the song just like it's kind of like extra dark

because if I remember correctly the management is there as well and I think they share the sentiment so they kind of like high five or something you know they're they're like ganging up on Lars and it's really sad especially if you imagine 40-year-old Lars or whatever late 30s as a 16-year-old, which these men should be viewed at this point in their, you know, as like kind of like running around as these like tender 16-year-olds. So anyway, all that to say is like, of course they're angry. And James says, and he said in 2017,

anger has kind of been this part of me that I've tried to embrace, I've tried to hide, I've tried to do everything with, and it's just a part of me, so I celebrate it. I think that's a good approach. Like, you know, it's kind of like the thing of like, there's nothing worse than trying to excise a part of yourself because it will only yield pain and disenfranchisement of yours. You know, like you can't get rid of parts of yourself. They're there. They're begging you to accept them.

And I think James had a ton of anger and he needed to accept it. Yeah, I think. And I'm going to assume that this interview was around this time. Is that correct? No, it was from like 10, 14 years later. Oh, okay. Well, then even better. Yeah.

I could, I would bet you money that part of his recovery was like, you have to sit with uncomfortable feelings. You have to figure out how to do that without drinking. Totally. And so he's in a position of saying like, all right, you know, I need to process anger in a way that doesn't make my liver want to leap out the side of my body. Totally. Just for the sake of posterity, discuss the critical reception of St. Anger. You know what?

I'll start with Rolling Stone just to level set, and then we'll go to a piece by someone we both know. You. Okay, Rolling Stone gave it four stars. Gorgeous. Truly a wonderful publication that is very supportive. by Barry Walters, he said, No wonder there's an authenticity

to St. Angers' fury that none of the band's rap metal followers can touch. I don't know about that. Across 75 plus minutes of savage but intricate structures that recall those pre-black glory days, Metallica go back to their brutal essence. There's no radio-sized four-minute rock here,

no pop-friendly choruses, no ballads, no solos, no wayward experimentation. Recorded with longtime producer, Bob rock on bass. This is loud, expansive, unrepentant Metallica. Hmm. Yeah. Unrepentantin is certainly correct. I've come around to this album and I don't know, Stockholm syndrome, whatever it is, it's just different.

The man just turned his snares off. That's it. He just turned his snares off and everybody yelled at them. They were upset about the drums and it's like, you know. Bunker, bonka, bonca, bonca, bonca, bonca, bonca. Why can't we try new things? Totally. What did Joe Gross say in the village voice? Oh my God. After spending the rest of the 90s,

fine-tuning your crossover sound, making a covers album, speaking of deforming the past, hanging out with the San Francisco Philharmonic to prove it's all Wagner anyway, abusing Napster and entering rehab, a certain been-there drink that sued that guy with the P2P software

might stifle the creative impulse. Okay, so you didn't like it. I mean, no, I didn't. I was frustrated on a couple of levels by that record. One, I thought the lyrics were ridiculous. They seem less ridiculous now because I am older and understand things like drinking too much and trying not to drink too much,

much more than I did then. That record was very frustrating because it was, to me, it sounded so flagrantly, hey, let's listen to Limp Biscuit and corn and disturbed and try and figure out why they're selling and that it just seemed, there were a lot of things about that record and about the way the music was made. And I'm sorry, the songs themselves, not the way the music was.

I mean, the way the music was made was its own issue and there's a whole movie and you can watch it and everything. But there was so much new metal as an NU metal, songwriting trappings in there that it just seemed very cynical. And, you know, more cynical somehow than the load thing where, you know, it was like, let's put a swampy bass in there. And it'll sound kind of like, you know, third tier grunge. But this was just, this was just not great. And it's funny. It's aged, you know, like a lot of things, it's aged fine. Like it could no longer hurt you. So. So it's a perfectly cromulent record now. But then it was just like, why are you ripping off this when metal is insanely healthy right now? Yes, you did say that in your piece. 20 different subgenres and you could have ripped off much more interesting people.

Okay, that's interesting. Isn't that part of evolving as an artist is to sort of like take your image. inputs and put them out. I mean, was Metallica listening to Sunno? Probably not. I mean, who knows why? Like, I don't know who puts them onto new music, but they're not in the world of Sunno. They're in the world of corn. They're in the world of Limbiscuit or whoever you want to say. And so, I mean, to me, it makes sense that they would take in what they were taking in. I mean, they had taken corn on tour as early as like, you know, years, five years before that. So it's like, I don't know.

I kind of don't knock them for being influenced, you know. And also, I want to say about St. Anger, for better, for worse, a thing about Metallica that starts happening around Lode and Forward is that, like, they're just really honest all the time. Like, they're like, this is how the sausage is made, babe. Playboy interview, this is how the sausage is made, that documentary, this is how the sausage is made. And like, I can't help but respect that. I think what people really like about rock and roll, or at least I can speak for myself, and it's like across the board is like there's a fantasy that you get to participate in, you know, between this band and what they're presenting and what you put into it. But Metallica lays it so bare, like that you can't hold your fantasy anymore. It's impossible.

And you brought up the lyrics and it's like, okay, yes. And like, do I want someone to make an album out of my like early therapy? No, I do not. But they did. And it's like props to you for being so just willing to like let it all hang out there. Yeah, no, absolutely. they made they made some very very interesting choices you know i think at that point people you know metal fans and metallic fans in particular were sort of holding out hope that the next one is going to be awesome

and they did that for a long time and then when it just stopped happening and by awesome i mean sounds like master of puppets uh you know when that just didn't happen I think there was sort of a defeated like, all right, I mean, I guess this is just what they are now. The difference between ripping off and being influenced by is sometimes pretty indistinguishable. And, you know, I think it was, I think it was, it was tough for a lot of fans. Between the, between the movie and the record, it was just like, this is a lot, guys. In looking back, it's like the utility of this album and this documentary was not for the fans, you know? I think this album and documentary, I'm serious, but I'm very serious.

I think this was for the band. Like, I think they needed this. Definitely James Hepfield. Like, you could see a world where, like, in his work and self-work and, you know, embarking on recovery and, you know, trying to be who he actually is and vulnerable for the first time in, you know, whatever 35 years. it could feel really important to put out this like really vulnerable work. Not necessarily for the end game of it being good or well received, but for the end game of being like, here's who I am, I accept myself, you accept me now too.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, people in recovery, you know, like talking about it, especially at first because they're getting, used to it themselves. Totally. And they just want to make sure everybody is sort of on the same page. And Metallica just happened to do it on a grand scale and made a movie and a record about it. And it was just like, well, this is a lot.

They were on a grand scale. They live on a grand scale. I mean, I can just see it just being really freeing. Like, you know, when you first have a taste of radical self-acceptance, it's awesome, you know? They are cringe, but they are free. This is their, they are cringe, but they are free turning point. And again, is it good? Does it matter?

You know, like, yeah, to fans probably, but like to the band as a way to like keep going and keep existing as a band. You see really clearly in that documentary. I mean, you see a lot of things really clearly in that documentary. Holy moly. But that they were about to break up. I mean. Yeah, they were pretty well done with each other. Yeah, Jason Neustad had left, you know, which like we talked about earlier,

that actually did sort of pour some glue back into the band because, you know, the clinging of James and Lars to each other was like sort of firmed up by that. He fucking left the band! He fucking left! There's a review, and I want to talk about the documentary. That might be in a little more detail, but... Sure. There's a review of it by Roger Ebert, where he says,

says what Dr. Phil Towell should probably advise Metallica is to call it a day. Why work with people you can't stand doing work you're sick of and that may be killing you? Lots of people have jobs like that, but Metallica has a choice. And to him, I say, does Metallica have a choice? Like, because I don't think they did have a choice. I'm not sure that's, I mean, I'm not going to, I'm not going to stomp on Roger, but since he's very much not here to defend himself, you know, I don't know how long they had on their contract at that point. I don't know what their management was telling them. I don't know what their agents were telling them.

But when you're a band of that size, you feel responsible for a lot of people. You know, there's a crew counting on you. Oh, totally. But I don't even mean, I don't even mean. I don't even mean in such a practical sense. Like, I think the implication of this review is like, you're rich. So you have, you don't, you have a choice. But I'm more speaking psychologically.

I don't think they psych, like, back to the God-sized whole babes, money doesn't fill that. And, you know, even Kirk said it in a quote that I quoted earlier. Like, there's no amount of fame or money or accolades. that is going to heal you. And this band, like we've talked about, is a family for these two people, at the very least, James and Lars, who have spent their life since they were 17 within it.

I don't think ending it felt like a choice to them. I think it very much felt like this is my life. I'm not going to end my life. And I don't think all bands are like that, but this band really seems like it was like that, you know? Yeah. Who are they, if not members of Metallica? And you can imagine that being what animates them, you know?

And so, like, that's kind of what I mean where, like, I don't know that as far as they are concerned, they have a choice. And it's not to make more money. It's to, like, maintain the outline of themselves as they understand themselves. Yeah, maintain a significant portion of their identity. Exactly. You know, you've got this movie where the, you know, you've got this movie where the, guys are trying to make a record. Heffield comes back from rehab and it's like, I can only record four hours a day.

And Lars is like, I don't understand why you have to do that. And you get just, you know, little episode of psychodrama after a little episode of psycho drama up to and including Dave Mustaine popping in on one of the band therapy meetings. And you're just like, what on earth? I think he cries. He absolutely cries. And it's, you know, it's wild because you sort of forget. I mean, I found it pretty easy to forget that he started Megadeth as kind of a, you know,

fuck you to Metallica after getting a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. And he's still, and it's just like, wow, you are still taking this personally. I watched people around the world say, what a great guitar player Kirk is and what a piece of shit I am. And that I got kicked out of Metallica. And that I wasn't good enough for them and that I was a loser. I mean, how could you not?

Can you imagine if you were an original member of what went on to become the biggest metal band in the history of the world? And then they kicked you out right before all of that happened. 40 years of therapy for me, if that happened. For me, it seems like yesterday I woke up and I look up and I see the guys that I love that are my extended family. I wonder if Dave has done the work. He came off well, honestly, in the documentary, as far as I'm concerned, he was very honest. He expressed his feelings. He cried, you know.

The other members seemed most more uncomfortable. Obviously, James wasn't present because he was at rehab. But you have to wonder what sort of such scene that would have been if James Hatfield had been there. Yeah, that was just wild. I mean, of course. Do people make fun of this documentary? Yes. all the live long day.

I love it. I think it's amazing. I love it too. It's amazing. Overarchingly, it's incredible that Metallica released it. You know, that they were so like,

we don't care about our image, which again, this is the point I keep trying to make where like, I think Lars has always been like that, but I think through the process of like making this album, they all sort of got on board

with like, this is who we are, who cares, you know, which is, again, so admirable. There's a moment where Lars and James are having like one of their many confrontations. And Lars says something to the effect of like, you control everything about this band. Do you even control us with your absence? Which is like such a sharply insightful thing to say and to, that's a hot take.

Oh, yeah. Lars is not a dope. Yeah, I mean. No, absolutely not. It is a very, very smart thing to say. And it's a recognition that if James isn't there, there's no Metallica. If James is there, at the moment, Metallica can only exist for, you know, four hours at a stretch. Four hours a day, totally.

While they figure out how to do this, you know, sing bands and process is always going to be awkward. Seeing bands and process with an interloper is like, yeah. I don't want to see it. Once I learned up close and personal that sometimes lyric writing is just what word fits here best, my whole universe was fucking shattered. I was like, I've been sold a lie, like the amount of faith and belief and emotion I've put into the lyrics of the songs that I love. And again, I don't think every single person writes lyrics that way, but it truly... Trust me, a shocking number of them, too.

I was upset for weeks. Like, it really hurt something inside of me. But anyways, all that to say is, like, how different is passing around a pen and pad to get my lifestyle as my death style and madly in anger with you? Like, not that different. I mean, you make a good point about seeing how the sausage is made that you're just like, does this happen more than we think it does? and someone just doesn't take credit for it, or there's just a quiet, like, yeah, just give me a third of the publishing on that,

and we'll call it a day. Yes, absolutely. But, yeah, the Kirk thing, the passing knee, the notebook around thing, the... The weird, like, unsurfaced intentions of both Dr. Phil and Bob Rock, where they're both, like, subtly vying for more place in the band, like Bob is clearly like maybe wanting to like be like I could be your bass player and Dr. Phil wanting to be like the official therapist of the band forever, you know, like.

I think the word we're looking for here is dazzlingly creepy. Bob Rock has spent years helping craft the sound of Metallica kind of makes sense that he'd want maybe to feel more part of it. Like I don't judge that, you know. And for Dr. Phil, it's like you spend. spend that much time with anybody, you're going to start, it's like summer camp, you know, you're going to start to feel like you're more part of it. And that's, it's true. You know, like, we're all, we're all besties here.

He went, both of them went to band Sleepaway Camp and Bob was the counselor who got a little too close to one of the campers. And, you know, Mr. Tell was the new camper who thought he was part of the group. There's also like some like amazingly humanizing moments. with like James Hepfield going to his daughter's ballet class and like just being a dad who supports his ballerina daughter, which, you know, in sharp contrast to Mr. Angry, you know, Metallica Man, which I think people, he got some, people really knocked him for that, you know? Yeah.

As producer Dylan's father said, this movie goes to show that even if you're in a heavy metal band, you are human too. Amen. Men. People had a fantasy about Metallica, and James Hetfield wearing flip-flops and going to his daughter's ballet recital or whatever, does not fit in with the fantasy. No. And that, that, you know, I love that scene, too. And it's just like, well, what do you think they're going to be like? Like, you know, these people aren't. They're middle-aged men with children. They're dads. Yeah, they're dads. And, you know, Hetfield knows. Would you rather they just, like, ignored their children and were, like, shitty?

But that's the thing is that, you know, Hetfield, you know, a man who has grown up without a father or with a father from whom he is quite estranged, if things break right and they get, you know, a couple of lucky breaks and are able to, I don't really like this term, but I'm going to use it anyway, and they're able to break that cycle, you know, those are some of the best dads you will ever meet in your life, is people who are like, yeah, I know what it's like to grow up without one. Yeah, so I'm going to be the best dad possible. Yeah. Producer Dylan says that another humanizing moment was Lars and his art collection, including the quote, it's not an investment. It's just

where I put my money. I will say, they're all rich. All these bands are very rich. Carrie King, with his dipteak candles, I believe it, speculation, but you know that that bitch is out there fucking dropping money on expensive things.

No one came for Ozzy Osbourne when his television show about how wealthy him and his family were in Beverly Hills was on MTV. This is the man of the Prince of Darkness, and he's literally like sitting on a $7,000 sofa or whatever. I mean, the thing about Lars and the art is like he's a rich European guy. Of course he's going to collect art. That shouldn't have been a surprise to anybody. Kirk built himself a haunted house to live in. James bought seven ranches to like hunt deer on or whatever. They all spent their money in the ways in keeping with their personalities.

And to your point, Lars grew up a cosmopolitan European person. He loves art and he's into it. And like it's just radical self-acceptance on a level that I deeply admire. And also, last thing I want to say about the documentary, how much they learned from the Jason Newsstud situation and obviously the therapy when they hire Robert Trujillo from suicidal tendencies. And they give this man a million dollars and then they overturned their lawyer and is like, no, he's going to be a equal member. Yeah, really, really, really smart. Robert Trujillo should tie some of that to Jason Newsstand. as Jason News said was essentially his agent in securing the bag.

Well, yeah. I mean, it's, you know, you and I talked about this. You know, bands that share writing credits stay together. Period. Totally. Like, you know, if everybody is, if the music is by R.E.M., if the music is by you too, if the music's by your beloved Sonic Youth, they're going to stay together. Or something is going to break them up that has nothing to do with music and nothing to do with money.

Look to the Metallica inspiration, The Misfits, who I think had six drummers in less than seven years or whatever, and the writing credits became enduring lawsuit. Yeah, the Misfits are a Russian novel. I mean, that's just... Tolstoy could never, honestly, babe. Okay, so some kind of monster, that happened, and we can all watch it again and again as many times as we want. A little fun tid, Robert Trujillo was playing bass for Ozzie, and who replaced him? Jason Newsdened. I just thought that was funny.

I was like, small pool. So in February of 2006, like two years after some kind of monster comes out, Metallica announces that after 15 years, they would not be working with Bob Rock on the next album. Around the same time, apparently there was a petition signed by 1,500 fans online. in an attempt to encourage the band to prohibit Bob Rock from producing Metallica albums, saying that he had too much influence on the band's sound and musical direction. Bob Rock said that the petition hurt his children's feelings.

You know, Bob, I don't know what to tell you, man. Why did your children know about the petition in the first place? Yeah. Anyways. I understand that that's like, I'm sure there's like a school yard. taunt that I don't know about that like nobody wants your dad to produce Metallica like how great would that be if somebody just like straight up came up the bully comes up and is like I heard yeah exactly

yeah I heard Metallica doesn't want to work with your dad anymore because he's lame so Bob Rock says sometimes even with a great coach a team keeps losing he got to dig in there you have to get new blood in there and the new blood that Metallica got in there was none other than one Richard Rubin Yeah, it was their turn to make a Rick Rubin record. Everybody's going to get one. You can't be a band for X amount of years without having a little dance with Rick Rubin. Yeah. And so we get Death Magnetic, September 2008.

Tell us a little about Death Magnetic, Joe. It was apparently inspired by Lane Staley. We didn't talk about it. Metall got a very tight relationship with Allison James. like starting after the black album basically or around the black album. Yeah. I'm not going to lie. This was news to me.

I did not know that they were so tight. It's just, it's an odd relationship. I can't lie. Death Magnetic stands out to me more for what it, how it sounded than the, than the songs on it. You mean how they were like, can we compress this anymore? No, how about a little more? More? A little more.

Could it be compressed a little bit more? Okay, just keep, oh no, keep going, turn it to 11, and then here you go. I mean, at the very height of these brick-walled records, they turn in something that was almost, in my opinion, physically unlistenable. And I remember putting it on in my car and turning it up and thinking, I can take about first. five minutes of this. And then my head's going to explode because this is just too much. And I think a lot of the bad reviews came from these brickwalled records and nobody told them, well, maybe it was because, you know, the brain physically can't stand that kind of music and will send signals to your, you know, around the brain saying, I can't handle this anymore.

I don't want to listen to this. And it's not a qualitative decision, even though you might think it is. It's a I can't physically deal with this decision. Totally. Let's hear a song so people get what we're talking about. Also, I'll just note that the reason to do this is to make it louder. It was like a thing that happened around this time where the people realized that if you obviously digitally music, if you compress it to a a certain level, it could be louder, played louder, heard louder. And loud is metal. I see here that you have chosen the song, the day that never comes.

So let's hear that off-death magnetic. That was the day that never comes. Joe Gross, why did you choose this song? It's interesting because I wouldn't have chosen that song. I just think it was a good example of what they were doing at this point, how they were approaching songwriting. you know, what a Rick Rubin record sounds like in whatever it was, 2008, and what they were going after. And quite frankly, how terrible it sounded.

It's just, I mean, there's no getting around it. It's weird how this was such a thing for so long. Yeah. Again, it's not just Metallica. This was like a trend. Oh, no, no. This was a problem. And, you know, there are all sorts of, yeah, there were all, and not a problem in the fun hip-hop sense, a problem in the like, this is a goddamn nightmare sense.

And, you know, there are charts you can find on the internet of just how bad a lot of various reissues sounded. And, you know, people would buy these things, you know, digitally remastered, special, you know, deluxe remastering. And then, you know, sit there and try and figure out why their favorite records. didn't sound good anymore. Right. It's a hard thing to explain to your average listener. It's a hard thing to explain to a lot of people. I don't really get it either because I'm dumb,

but I do understand that it sounds not the way I want to do. Okay, putting aside the sonic issues for a second. Sure. Let's talk about the content, right? Listening to this album made me have a thought, okay, it sounds like they were going back to basics. Like, let's make, you said it before. Like, the fans want you to make Master of Puppets again.

It sounds like they tried a little bit to make Masters of Puppets again. Do you know what I mean? Like, content-wise. It's like, you can't ever go home again. It doesn't really work the way I think maybe they wanted it to, right? It ends up sounding a bit like a Xerox of a fax of a copy of like a, you know, stencil tracing of the original thing. And that goes more to, I think, the idea that like when people say like, I wish you still sounded like X, Y, Z, no, you don't. You know, that's not how it works.

You don't want your favorite band to try to relive the past because it's never going to satisfy you. I mean, I think, you know, part of the whole late stage myth of Rick Rubin is that he will take you, quote unquote, back to basics. And there will be a purity about the record you make with Mr. Rubin that is unachievable in other context with other producers. I think that started with the Johnny Cash records that he did and sort of kept going. I mean, his relationship with the red hot chili peppers is a little bit different, but that's sort of beside the point. King shit. Yeah, I mean, he, you know, people go to him for, to reclaim something they think they lost. And the result is sometimes, you know, hurt.

And the result is sometimes death magnetic. And, you know, this time around it was death magnetic. You can't blame them for trying to give the fans what they want. wanted at this point. No, of course not. Absolutely not. They gave it a shot, man. Kirk had said, like, to your point that apparently there was a photo of Lane Staley of

Allison Chains hanging in the studio where Metallica was recording. And Kirk says he thinks that photo pervaded James's psyche and sort of like influenced a lot of the song writing and lyric writing. Hetfield said, uh, Death Magnetic, at least the title to me, started out as a kind of tribute to the people that have fallen in our business, like Lane Staley and a lot of people that have died, basically. Rock and roll martyrs of sorts. And then it kind of grew from there thinking about death. Some people are drawn towards it and just like a magnet. And other people are afraid of it and push. Also, the concept that we're all going to die sometimes is over talked about. And then a

lot of times never talked about. No one wants to bring it up. It's the big white elephant in the living room. That elephant doesn't have to be white. That's the game where you trade gifts. But we all have to deal with it at some point. I'm a little bum. This record isn't called some kind of magnetic, to be honest. No. No, Joe. We're pondering mortality, babe. And this was the result of pondering mortality, which makes sense. You think about if, you know, we've drank ourselves away from feelings and thoughts for many years. And then we've, we've, We've gotten sober. We've started to work through feelings.

Now we're going to ponder mortality. Yeah. In keeping. I mean, pretty logical. The problem is just that people didn't, you know, we hear a bunch of long songs that should make us feel like old school Metallica. And it just kind of didn't. Yeah.

That's not where they want to be right now. 2008, the state of rock music. Not great, Bob. Not great, Bob. Just not extant. It was just That wasn't a high point in rock music. 6 a.m. a band I've never heard of

Theory of a Dead Man. This was like, you know. That's grim. Kings of Leon, producer Dylan says, but they're not even in this, they're not even the top 20. Motley crew somehow broke into the top 20. It was hinder.

if you'll remember, Metallica did hit number 16. But imagine in a world, Metallica, the biggest metal rock band of the time, only hit number 16 of the top rock songs of 2008. Not ideal. Anyways, all that to say, that's what was going on in 2008. Sorry to bum everyone out. Predictably, this album didn't get great reviews. Although, interestingly, Rob Harvilla, our friend, my best friend, friend of the show, reviewed it for

the Village Voice through the game guitar hero because in an interesting twist of events, the version of Death Magnetic that was in Guitar Hero didn't sound as bad, didn't have the same production issues, which is so weird. Yeah, it got mastered completely differently. I don't know why that was, but it would not surprise me that they just sent. I mean, it might have been a slightly different mix. It certainly wasn't mastered the same. Yeah. But it sounded way, way better.

It's one of those weird little historical blips that remember that time that like playing a video game made music sound better? Crazy. I would be remiss if I did not mention there is another unforgiven song on here, the third. They're just going to keep going with this. They're going to keep going with it to annoy you. You personally. Forever.

And I'm like, you know what? Go off kings. Rolling Stone did give this four stars, just in keeping with the tradition of Rolling Stone giving almost everything four stars. Death Magnetic, again, in Metallica too big to fail, you know, an American story did hit number one on the Billboard chart. So they're the first band to achieve five consecutive number one studio albums on the Billboard 200. God bless them. I know. That's what we do around here.

Pitchfork gave it a 4.9. Not a good score. They did not revise it recently. The guy says, which I think is kind of true, Metallica aren't good at being bluesy or unpredictable. They're best at heavy metal thunder, and they've forgotten that. Yeah, all true.

Yeah. It's a tough record to find interesting stuff to say about, quite frankly. That's really fine because we're about to get to the next stuff. album that I have a lot to say about, a lot. A lot of things to say. It's going down. April of 2009, Metallica is inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

Congratulations, Metallica. Thank you to everybody out there. We love you. Metallica is in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fucking Fame. Take that with you. October of 2009, Metallica plays the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame 25th anniversary concert,

joined by none other than Mr. Lewis Reed. Say it James. Reed. The result of this chance meeting is a collaboration called Lulu. Hell yes. Lulu comes out October 2011. I think originally the idea of this collaboration was that they want was going to be cover songs. I think there was like a lot of back and forth around what kind of collaboration they were going to do.

They just apparently really enjoyed playing together, which is very cool. What it ended up being was Lou Reed, I think he was asked to do this, I'm not totally sure, but to write music based on the Lulu plays by the German playwright Frank Whitakind, who died in 1918. These plays are weird, is a good word. They're surrealist. It's two plays that make up one work called Lulu,

and it's the continuous story of, I'm quoting here, a sexually enticing young dancer who rises in German society through her relationships with wealthy men, but who later falls into poverty and prostitution. I think she's also killed by Jack the Ripper at the end. So, of course, Lou Reed would be like, yes. Bring it on. Bring it on.

people were mean about Lulu and I'm going to go on record right now and say I like Lulu. Yeah. This is not a bit. I really do like Lulu. I'm right there with you. I put it on last week for the first time since it came out and it's not a record I've thought about much. It's a record of friends of mine who are also enormous Lou Reed nerds like I am have talked about over the years and it's just one of those records where I'm like, if I'm in the mood to hear Uncle Lou, I'm not going to put this on. I'm going to put on one of 15 other records or, you know, the annoying, nerdy shelf of Velvet Underground bootlegs. Like, I've got a lot to choose from.

But this week I was like, all right, let's do this. And I was kind of blown away at points. And it's good. D. It is, as they say, actually good. I think there are a couple things. I think there are a couple things going on. Number one, there is a musical precedence for this. I mean, you put on rock and roll animal, and it's not that far afield from this. You know, with Dick Wagner and Steve Hunter from Alice Cooper's band playing just like glam metal, like turning all these velvets and Lou Reed songs into glam metal, it's just like, well, this is not too far afield. There's that story of Laurie Anderson saying that Bowie, actually both Laurie Anderson and James Murphy from LCD sound system, said that Bowie thought it was a masterpiece. And, you know, I remember reading something in the British press where they're like, that's just Bowie's cheeky sense of humor. And I'm like, you know. Give the man some credit. Well, and also Bowie joked about a lot of stuff.

Lou Reed wasn't one of those things. Famous jokester. Yeah. Noted stand-up comedian. David Bowie. Yeah. And the lyrics are really, really good. And in a very Lou kind of way.

No, they're incredible. It's poetry. And it's like, it's pretty exceptional thinking. The fact that Lou Reed is like embodying a. disgrace, like basically a disgraced but sexually voracious and unapologetic woman, which, you know, as we know, like sort of doomed women wore his metier in terms of, I love that word, sorry, you guys, I learned a new word and I'm going to use it all the time. He loved to write about that kind of woman and he did it well, you know, and while this one is a little bit different, I was really struck by how good of a job he did. Like how sort of like relatable and powerful his lyrics are. I am the table, babe.

I just want you to know. I am the table. Yeah, I mean, given the weird knot that is, you know, famously lose sexuality, either publicly admitted or in his, you know, in biographical material or, you know, the stuff about his parents and his relationship to his own sexuality and sexuality of other people, you know, I'm worried. I'm not terribly surprised that he was able to embody this particular character. Like, for me, that was the least surprising of, I mean, I'm not surprised. I'll put it this way. I am not surprised he did a great job. Just like, you know, that character's in there somewhere.

That's definitely part of him. You know, musicians at that level love the opportunity to play something that they're not known for. And this was a chance for these guys to play, you know, Velvet Underground-ish drones. Is it something that I've been playing every morning at 6 a.m. Because I'm totally fine and no one needs to check up on me. Yes. Let's hear your song off of Lulu.

I love that you chose iced honey, a gorgeous song. It would have been easy to choose The View. Because, like I said, I am the table, babe. I am the view. the table, yeah. But this song is Gorge. Let's hear Iced Honey by Lou Reed and Metallica off Lulu. That was Ice Honey.

You chose a song that's sort of like on the down swing of Lulu's narrative arc. I also chose one that sounds very, very Lou. Like that's a much more Lou song than a Metallica song. Like that, that song you can vary east. that chord structure, the way it's played, you can very easily hear on something like Set the Twilight Reeling or New York or The Raven or Ecstasy, a record like that.

It's very much a loose song. Although, you know, it's something else about this record that these are two bands that have made moves that absolutely in, or two groups or two entities, that made moves that completely infuriated their fan bases. Yeah. And have a history of it. And I remember after Lou Reed died, there was this wonderful quote by, I think it was Steve Albini, and I think I'm going to get this right.

We literally can't make it through one episode of this show without mentioning Steve Albini. And today it's now. Go ahead. And today it's now. Yeah. And he, the quote was something like, you know, people, think I you know I have this weird public image of somebody who doesn't give a fuck but I wish I couldn't give a tenth of a fuck that Lou Reed did like that guy just did not care what you thought of his work

Steve Albany did the best possible job on every album that he produced whether or not he liked it see pixies where he was like this is trash but I did I did what I had to do I mean he didn't give a fuck about being a dick in print and publicly. But when it came to making music, he definitely seemingly cared. He always tried his best. Yeah, yeah. I don't mean that. I mean, he didn't care what people thought of the work that he did.

Oh, I see. I see. Yeah. And, you know, he just, he did his work and presents it. And it's just like, this is it. I wish I didn't care as much as Lou Reed truly did not give a shit what you thought of his latest whatever. That guy did exactly what he wanted to do all the time.

That's the outcome, I think, of constantly trying new things, which, as we've, like, firmly established at this point, that was Metallica's, like, job as far as they were concerned, is that sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And when it does work, again, were people able to accept this gorgeous work of art? No, because people are stupid and short-sighted. But it really did work here, and it's so cool. And it's like the idea that Metallica of all bands, you know, not Slayer or like maybe a more, maybe considered cooler or progressive at this stage of the game band is the one that collaborated with Lou Reed and made this like epic story.

The music works so perfectly. like Lou Reed is such a genius to think this, that like this woman that he's talking about was violent in her sexuality. And of course, it kind of harks back to what we were saying earlier, like the violence of sexuality that is presented in thrash music or in metal. You know, it's a perfect marriage for the subject matter. And I think it comes off perfect. But people didn't think so at the time. I remember exactly where I was the first time I heard the Velvet Underground. And I can tell you that I was like I remember exactly where I was the first time I heard Lulu.

No, but I mean, I remember reading about it and and thinking like, I have no idea where he's going with this, where either of them are going with this. But it's, you know, it was a collaboration. It was almost like it was a collaboration designed to piss off the exact fan bases that both of these groups had cultivated. these are not artists that either fan base would think, oh yeah, this is a great idea. You know, records age in interesting ways, and I think Lulu has aged great. I agree.

Reception-wise, like we said, Rolling Stone gave it three stars. They actually were like, this is, you know, they walked the wild side together. It's kind of positive, you know, like a Metallica are Prague metal maximists at heart, but on Lulu, they meet Reed halfway, often, favoring the high decibeled droning, the velvet underground lured from avant minimalized composers, repetition, atonal overtones, traffic jam, audio verite. Agreed. It's good.

Yeah. Chuck Klostrum and hated it. He really hated it. He said, I'll just say it just for the record. If the red hot chili peppers acoustically covered the 12 worst primus songs for Starbucks, it would still be slightly better than this. Rough chuckles. Producer Dylan is wheezing from laughing.

but it's a funny sentence, but it doesn't hold water. So, sorry, Klosterman. I don't agree with you. It's much better than whatever that description was. And actually, Starbucks is a gorgeous place, and I love their drinks. They're very consistent, and I would much rather get a beautiful drink from Starbucks than many other places. I just want to say one last thing about Lulu, which is that for Metallica, it was a crashing failure

in terms of charting. It hit 36 on the Billboard 200. But that made it Lou Reed's highest charting release since Sally can't dance. Yeah, which is hilarious. Like I just, uh, playing those two records back to back, you would get very extreme views of Lou Reed. So after Lulu, Metallica celebrates their 30th anniversary. They played some shows at the Fillmore, a little underplay. Jason Neustad, Dave Mustaine, and Ozzy Osbourne shown them on stage.

So we have healed in some ways. And then in 2012, Metallica leaves Warner Brothers and launches their own independent label. And then in 2016, they put out what is to date their last real original release, right? I mean, because unless we're not going to really count the Black Album situation that happened this year on the anniversary with like 6 million covers. But hardwired to self-destruct came out in 2016. First record in eight years, the longest they've ever taken before making another album. It did enter the charts at number one. What do you have to say about hardwired to self-destruct?

I will give them all of the money in my pockets to go back in time and take away the to self-destruct from that album title. Hard-wired, perfectly reasonable title. Love it. Totally great. hardwired dot, dot, dot, dot, to self-destruct is, I mean, we could have told you that, guys. Yeah. I don't have one way or the other take on the title or an ellipses, but I don't not like this album. No, it's pretty good.

Yeah, it's, as these things go, it's fine. It certainly sounds better than death magnetic. Right. The sleeve's a little goofy, but, you know, you can have a lot of. all the heads on one head screaming. Yeah. This is the one with the story where Kirk lost all the riffs, right? You know, the way I look at it is that it's just this is the way it was meant to be.

You know, whatever happens in the next recording, touring cycle is what was what's meant to be. That poor man, like, I can't. Yeah, I think this is the record where Kirk doesn't have any credits on it because he lost his phone and his phone had all these riff ideas on it and they were not in the cloud and uh you know there goes kirk's writing credits for this record damn a classic bono losing the briefcase of his lyrics situation what song do you want to play off this album i hope that you chose hardwired because it's a damn good song yes i chose hardwired okay let's hear hardwired off hardwired dot dot dot dot to self M dash destruct.

That was hardwired just showing us that Metallica has mellowed and found an optimism in their later age. That's not at all true. The lyrics of the song are literally, in the name of desperation, in the name of wretched pain, in the name of all creation, gone insane. We're so fucked. Shit out of luck. Hardwired to self-destruct. Go.

Classic. A plus, no notes. No, no notes. Do you feel that hope is fading? Sometimes. This is a great song. Like, you said off mic that it sounds like ministry. Great thing to sound like.

Yeah, I mean, the opening certainly does. That's just me showing my age, kiddo. Mm-hmm. Gen X. I like this album. As a last offering from Metallica, it's a good one. I don't know if there's going to be more. TBD.

I haven't heard anything. I don't know if you have, but if this is what we go out on, great. As far as studio records, yeah. Yeah. You could certainly do worse. It got pretty good reviews. Pitchfork gave it a 6.5, which, you know, as far as they're concerned, is good. And David Frick reviewed it.

They brought back David Frick to review it for Rolling Stone, four stars. this is also the first album that they put out firmly in the streaming age so I always wonder if that at all influenced the writing of it or anything you know like I was thinking about that

with a lot of bands that predated streaming and then you know we're sort of putting out something in peak Spotify and other streaming times you know some of the Like Hardwired is about three minutes long. That's like a hardcore song for these guys.

And it is one record where the physical presentation I found a little confusing, just in that, you know, why is this a double CD? If you cut literally 20 seconds off of every song, you could fit it onto a single CD. And it's just, it's a little confusing in that regard where they're trying to make an aesthetic statement in terms of Like, here's one half of traditional stuff. Here's one half something else. I think, you know, this all could have been safely on one compact disc. But, you know, maybe they didn't, weren't really thinking that way in terms of this is a streaming collection more than it's anything else. Sure.

I hear you. That's a good take. Apparently, in March of 2019, Robert Trujillo did tell an Australian magazine called The Music that Metaels. Alka had begun jamming on new material for its next studio album. So far, no sign of that. It's rumored that James Hatfield relapsed. I don't want to speculate on that, but I just want to mention because it has come up in the news. And then the last, you know, meaningful thing was they put out the blacklist to celebrate the 30-year anniversary of the black album.

It included 53 covers of Black Album songs, released in conjunction with the anniversary, including songs by Mac DeMarcos, St. Vincent, Pup, Cage the Elephant, Jay Balvin, Darius Rucker, shout out Hooty and the Blowfish, Kamasi, Washington, and many more. The Kamasi Washington song is dope. It's really great. I wish they had gotten Danzig. It would have been a really cool full circle moment

considering how inspired by the misfits they were. That's a very good point. And how they've covered many misfits songs. I think it would have been so sick if then they had Danzig or even all of the misfits come cover a Metallica song. I thought it was very interesting. I don't know how they went about picking the people. Dave Gahan does a song.

Portugal demand, that makes sense. John Pardy. There's a lot going on here. Lot, lot, lot, Corey Taylor. That seems like an expected off. Our man's Keith Morris is in the building. We have gathered together for you. A bunch of diehard Metallica fans

so we could hear what they had to say about this band. Let's hear it. Hello, this is Brian Tatler from Diamond Head. First, I didn't get Metallica. It was all a bit fast and aggressive. I'd grown up listening to bands that were more bluesy, with more melody. And then slowly I got into certain songs like Fahunda Beltholes

and creeping death. And I began to appreciate the craft in their songwriting. Metallica paved the path for what my life would become to me. People call them an entry-level metal band because they are the most popular metal band out there, and they're likely like the first metal band that people hear, but nothing compares to the excellence of those first four records. You know, I felt like I was a very misunderstood kid,

and I heard Sanitarium for the first time, and it just spoke to me. You know, James is very angsty, I feel, and someone like me can totally relate to that. I started bands in Venezuela, metal bands covering Metallica, and writing our original music because I wanted to be like James Hepfield. I learned how to write lyrics because I wanted to learn how to write like James Hepfield.

I actually learned English because of Metallica. It's not easy to write a really heavy song that is a big chorus and appeals to millions of people. When I first heard Master of Puppets, I couldn't believe that music could be so heavy, so beautiful, so complex, and especially all three of those things at once. Cliff, just his finger-picking style as well playing bass, it's never been seen. He just brought that unique this to Metallica, the same thing with Rob. I think each and every player in the band has their own uniqueness.

Years and years later, I have two Metallica tattoos on my body, and I still consider him the greatest band on Earth and my favorite band. It's incredible what Metallica would achieve. I take my hat off to them. Long may they rain. Gorgeous words from Metallica's mega fans, including one Uncle Brian, Brian Tatler of Diamondhead,

who does happen to be one of our editor, Michael Hardman's uncle. And thusly, we had the great pleasure of having him chime in on this episode. And you know what? What a gracious man with what a gorgeous accent. Absolutely. Well, we've reached the end of our Metallica journey.

It's been a long and winding road. There's been ups, there's been downs, there's been emotions, there's been pain, there's been anger. But all in all, I think it wasn't really the point. The point was the friends we made along the way. Thank you everyone for listening. Joe Gross, thank you so, so much for coming on. It has been a great pleasure to discuss the back half of the Metallica's catalog with you.

My pleasure. Thank you. Oh, you're welcome. It is now time for us to fade to black, if you will. But before we do, let's play one last song to take the listeners out with so they can continue their... Metall journey? Their Metala journey. They can continue to seek.

and destroy if they should want to. What should we hear at the end here? The Unforgiven Seven. You know, I'm all for Junior Dad, but I can understand if that's not, you know, exactly what you want to go out on. No, let's play Junior Dad. It's a great song.

I think it's a beautiful representation of what Metallica has achieved in the later half of their career. So, listen, let's hear Junior Dad. come back next week for a brand new episode of Bansplaine. And listen, age withered and changed him into a junior dad. If you liked what you heard today, subscribe for more episodes of Bandsplaine, only on Spotify. Our Gen X man guest today was Joe Gross.

Follow him on Twitter at Joe Gross. Huge, huge things to the Metallica mega fans you heard on this episode. Uncle Brian, aka Brian Tatler from Diamondhead, Andre Rodriguez, Andy O'Connor, Christina Castrejohn Valley, and Bella Bari. Bansplain is a Spotify original show. This episode was produced by my own personal $40,000 a month performance enhancement coach, Dr. Dylan, aka Dylan Tupper Rupert, and edited by Nico Paolela,

with help from Casey Simonson and Tari Miller. Executive producers for Bansplaine are Gina Delback and me, Yassie Sinclair. Salih. Our gorgeous and catchy theme song was composed and performed by Bethany Cozantino and Jennifer Claven and graciously recorded by Carlos Delagas in Los Angeles, California. Special thanks to Philippe Biggie Hermino, Robert Adler, Leah Edwards, David McDunna, Dana Mearsson, Jessica Hopper, and Lulu. Come back every Thursday for a new episode of Bandsplain, only on Spotify. You can't nod at a podcast, Joe.

I can try. You sure can, but no one's going to hear you.