Bandsplain - PERFECT SONG: ‘Boys On the Radio’ with Patrik Sandberg, Plus An Interview With Hole Bassist and Author Melissa Auf der Maur

Episode Date: April 16, 2026

Yasi is joined by writer Patrik Sandberg to break down one of Hole’s (many) perfect songs “Boys on the Radio.” They talk Courtney Love’s evolution, her relationship with critics, and the inspirations, intentions, and alternative culture of the 90’s that influenced it all.Then, Melissa Auf der Maur stops by to discuss her new book, Even the Good Girls Will Cry. She discusses her time in Hole, her friendship with Courtney Love, and her wide-ranging life as an artist.CREDITS:Host: Yasi Salek @yasisalekGuests: Patrik Sandberg @patriksandberg, Melissa Auf der Maur @xmadmxProducer: Rob SundermannEditor: Adrian BridgesAdditional Production Supervision: Justin SaylesTheme Song: Bethany Cosentino Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's with this band anyway? I don't get it. Can you please explain? Wait, like, Bansplain? Hello and welcome to Bandsplane. I am your host, Yossi Salick. This is usually a show where I invite an expert guest on to help me explain a cult band or iconic artist. Today's episode is a little different. Today's episode is about just one perfect song, and that song is Boys on the Radio by Whole.

Also, please stick around after our talk about Boys on the Radio for my interview with Whole Basis Melissa Oftramar about her book, Even the Good Girls Will Cry. My guest today is one perfect man, the triumphant return of Patrick Sandberg. Wow. Welcome back, Patrick. I'm so happy to have you. Thrill to be back. Newly meant to substackenista, Patrick Sambrugh. Back where we belong. Yes.

It's called the paraphernalia, and you guys should really get involved with it. I won't lie. I'm like of two minds about it. I'm like, this is so great for everyone else. But like, you know when you're like gatekeeping? Because you're like,

but that's my perfect friend who sends me his perfect thoughts in voice memos. And now everyone's going to know his perfect thoughts. Well, gatekeeping is also like kind of the originating principle of the subsect itself

because I am paywalling it. It's true. I just figured someone will pay. I also know that some of your more fringe thoughts will be left just to the group chats, and I can feel happy about that. Oh, yeah. All the mean ones. Okay, Patrick, before we get started and try to keep it brief, but can you tell me your relationship to this song slash album slash band?

How did we think to do this song? You chose it. I did? That's right. Yeah, I said we should do, I mean, it was a while ago, we were crafting the idea. You guys famously, or maybe infamously, I don't know if you don't follow me on social media, it's a bit of your loss. But we get asked to do the whole episode quite frequently, and I hear you, you're heard,

but Ms. Courtney Love herself has strongly requested that we do not do the whole episode until she releases her forthcoming solo album, and who am I to go against that? And how do you even do a whole episode? Like, would you bring her on? If she wants to, but maybe not as the main guest, because we don't really do that. Right, because that's a lot to go through.

Well, we just, it's an outside lens, usually, you know? Mm-hmm. But we will be doing that eventually. But in the meantime, we have this interview with Melissa Offdramar. Please stick around. Wow, the gingers are taking over. The genders are taking over. The invasion.

And then we were like, oh, we can, we're allowed at the very least to do a perfect song on whole to pair perfectly with the Melissa Offtermark interview. And I was like, well, Patrick, dealer's choice. And you chose Boys on the Radio. I thought I chose Malibu. No. But Malibu would be my choice. Maybe. I have to think about this.

Boys on the Radio is a perfect song. Well, it's a little late now. I've done the research on this one. So don't we, I mean, look, we will obviously talk. It was you and me and our friend Cody. Right. Did Cody, did Cody choose boys on the radio? Consensus became boys on the radio.

Right. Listen, we're obviously going to talk about the other songs, touch on them on the album Celebrity Skin, also from 1998. But I think this is actually a great song to kind of dive into because I do think it has a really interesting backstress. story as well as being like a really cool song, which makes a good episode, you know? It feels like it kind of represents a turning point for Courtney in terms of songwriting, in terms of what she was aspiring toward.

It kind of, and if you listen to the Celebrity Skin album, there's sort of moments that really peak, and this feels kind of like a woe moment on the record. Totally. And I also think it represents like almost a slight moment of personal softening. Do you know what I mean? In like a really cool way which we can get into. Especially when you hold live through this next to celebrity skin, which. Pre-y yoga, post-y yoga.

But two, to me, kind of perfect albums, both in, you know, they both really 10 out of 10. Absolutely. But in kind of really different ways. I think celebrity is going to get to bad rap. 100%. I mean, we're going to get into that a lot. I have a lot to say about that. But I think partially the reason why is because Live Through this is such a seismic album.

It was such like an insane moment that catapulted this person to ubiquity and stardom on like a world stage. Yeah. And it also was kind of like this open wound of an album. That was, we had never seen somebody express grief like that before in that way. But it's, what's so interesting to me is that this is the grief album. Celebrity Skin is the grief album. Live through this was written pre. I mean, of course, there's plenty to grieve and be angry.

But the way that it played out, you know. Yeah, but the way that it played out for sure. And also it is just such a beautiful and intense album. I think a lot of people consider it the best album of the 90s or it's, it's like very, very high up there. Smart people. Yeah, smart people. But even like the idiots, you know, like Rolling Stone.

Which camera do I look at when I'm insulting somebody? It's like, I think even like the kind of, you know, the like mainstream media lists tend to rank it very highly even at this point. I was talking to someone else about this. I can't remember who, but it's one of my greatest litmus tests, especially of men, not to put my pink, Pussy hat right back on. But like, I feel like you can tell a lot about a straight man by how they speak about Courtney Love and how they speak about Whole. And even like, I think if you're, if you're a straight man at home, maybe just like do a little soul searching because you might not even notice your deeply internalized misogyny jumping right out, you know, because also it's

just like you have shit taste also. Like if you can't hear how phenomenal live through this, is. Even shitheads at this point, admit it. Hang it up. I think that's the power of live through this and where it is, where it kind of like lives and situates in the kind of like great American songbook at this point. Not Rogers and Hammers. And maybe sometimes it takes 40 years.

You know what I mean? Well, and obviously to address. The golden oldies are what we're talking about today. It's really crazy. To be clear. To like also get out in front of it, you know, one of the many injustices and indignity that Courtney Love had to bear was being accused of not writing her own album and, you know, the accusation being that Kurt Cobain wrote it.

And I actually loved in Melissa Offtermar's book, she says it really well where she's like, these songs are really simple. Like, we didn't need Kurt Cobain. Like, or not we because she wasn't part of the band, but like she didn't, like, they're not difficult, like, complicated songs. Like Courtney said it in an interview too. She was like, he would have done it something better. This is not him.

Well, they definitely had a shared outlook. And his sense of humor, sense of irony, all those things. Put some respect on Eric Erlinson's name, babe. They were married. That man wrote these songs, too. I don't know. But also, simple songs can be the hardest ones to write, especially the good simple songs. Yeah.

Well, let's do a little whole TLDR before we get, just to bring us up. Because I think the context is. Correct. The context is obviously really important. So formed in Los Angeles in 1989 by Courtney Love and Eric Erlinson, we will not go through each and every personnel change. But at the time of celebrity skin, the lineup was Courtney, Eric, bassist Melissa Offermar, and drummer Patty Shemel.

First album, pretty on the inside, was produced by Kim Gordon and put out by Caroline record in September of 19-19. We found out recently. No. Just kidding. And also just importantly about pretty on the inside, like this wasn't some like nobody heard it who cares album. Like within the world of like elevated indie music, like it was voted album of the year by the Village Voice that year. It made Spin's top 20.

Like it wasn't, you know, nobody's ever heard of these people. The band toured in sport of that record. They had line with mud honey in Europe. In the United States, they opened for Smashing Pumpkins, which is I believe where Courtney may be first met Billy or, you know, sometime around here. And they briefly dated. And then later, she started dating Kurt Cobain, whom she married in February of 1982.

Nevermind had been released. Nirvana's Nevermind. Okay, record scratch. Yes. For the younger listeners. Sure. In the 90s, rock music was like a really big deal. Alternative music was the dominant culture.

But really not till 92. Not until 92. And so what I'm trying to say is like indie culture, as we know it now, didn't exist in the same way back then. It looked a little bit different. But Holes renown around pretty on the inside would be the equivalent of like an indie record now that's pretty big. Right. Yes. That does well within the indie space, but hasn't like broken through.

So that was sort of where Hull was at back then, like opening for the pumpkins. The pumpkins were also like kind of like the best indie band from Chicago. Right. That then blew up. At this point they put out yish but not. Siamese stream. Yeah. So this is like the incubation period of what is going to become known as like the best of the brightest of MTV 90s, you know, glitter oddie.

But they're not there yet. And even never mind didn't sort of blow up. up until the top of 92. Like, it was, like, through the Christmas shopping period of December, 1991, and CD buying that, like, kind of pushed them over the top, and they'd dethrone Michael Jackson. It was a whole huge show. So, anyways, by this point... But that was, like, smash hit record, kind of changed everything.

Change everything. So, at this point, Kurt and Courtney are incredibly famous due to the fact of Nirvana being this, like, massive situation. they have their first child in August of 92, Francis Bean Cobain, Hull signed to a Geffen subsidiary called DGC with an eight album contract in late 1992. Wow, they used to do it serious, you guys. I don't have access to the contract, but that's what it was at.

Draconian. And then in 93, they were wrote and recorded, their next album, lived through this. On April 7, 1994. Can I add one thing? Yes. So Francis is born in August, 1992. Right.

That month is when the September 1992 issue of Vanity Fair comes out. Right. I remember the photos were by Michelle Comte. The article was by Lynn Hersberg. And the article was called Strange Love. It opened with the sentence, Courtney Love is late. And it goes pretty downhill from there.

In the article, Lynn Hershberg, articulates an accusation that Courtney was on heroin while pregnant with Frances. Yeah. Which, of course, became a lynchpin in a lot of later drama. Also, like, unsubstantiated. Yeah. Unproven. Just kind of a reckless thing for a journalist to do, in my personal opinion,

given what's at stake, given that it's Vanity Fair, not Star Magazine, you know, kind of crazy. I know I'm obviously a Stan. Of course, but it's also... But I think I would say that about anyone. Like, I think a publication at the level of Vanity Fair would not maybe toss around things that are pretty criminal accusations.

Libellists? Yeah. Well, I think that there was a kernel of truth to it in the sense that Kurt and Courtney were on heroin and she stopped using heroin when she got pregnant or when she found out she was pregnant. Right. So she said,

she found out she was pregnant she was. How many girls do I know that have been like doing cocaine in Miami whilst pregnant without knowing, you know, like, okay, well. Smoking cigarettes at China Shelle. Yeah. Sorry inside a joke. People do a lot of things when they don't know that they're pregnant. Or when they do know.

Right. And also like just to point out like going through hell and high water because when you put in Vanity Fair that someone uses drugs during their pregnancy, child protective services will show up at your door. And they did. Mm-hmm. So we're going the fuck through it already. Before April 7th, 1994, which is the day that Kurt Cobain dies by suicide.

April 14th, 1994, which is one single week later, is the day that holes lived through this came out. I want to talk to David Geffen about this decision. I am curious about it. Would that happen now? No, I don't think so. It's crazy. Yeah. There's something that feels deeply cynical about it.

Like, oh, we better capitalize on this. Yeah. It was all over MTV all day, every day, you know? And MTV was a big deal back then in ways that are probably impossible to fathom now. I don't even know. Like, MTV was Instagram. It was like what everyone was looking at. It was like you would go to school, you would come home, you would-

You would park yourself. Fused to do your homework and you would turn on MTV and it was like face TV screen glued. What was going on in the world? I wasn't going to know if there was a war honey unless Kurt Loder was going to tell me about it. Yeah. How would we have known about freeing Tibet? Yeah.

Would never. Then would never. The live through this coming out a week after Kurt died was very insane. And not to mention there was a televised memorial. Yes. Where Courtney read the suicide note that is like deeply tattooed on my subconsciousness.

One million percent. I mean, it was an insane cluster of time. And forget about the, like, album coming out, all of the professional obligations around the album coming out that fell to the shoulders of a person who is grieving the loss of their husband. kind of insane, but also as like a workaholic, I kind of understand

at least the impetus from her perspective to be like, well, what am I going to do, sit at home and think about how he's dead? That's not what I would also want to go just do something. She did a little bit. I think it's, and that's, it's something, it all blurs together in our memory

because it was such a kind of insane spectacle at the time. Right. But Hull didn't make, didn't do a public performance in support of it through this until the Redding Festival that August. Right. So it was, it was, there was some time, some downtime. Yeah. And it was sort of like, it's crazy what, like with everything that we're about to talk about, it's like if you look, there's like a two-year period of time where Courtney Love's Life changed irrevocably.

It was like from nevermind until lived through this becoming like a platinum selling album. and she became super, super famous. Lost Kurt, lost Kristen, which is the next thing that's probably on your... Kristen Faf, yeah. She passes away in June. So June 16th, 1994, the basest of whole Kristen Faff

died of a heroin overdose in Seattle. So just like two months after... The hits keep coming. But it's like, never mind. Marriage, baby. Right. Like... Like Kurt's suicide.

Kristen dies, live through this comes out, all of this is happening in such a short span of time that it would drive any sane person crazy. And this is where they pick up Melissa, which will talk about more

in the interview with Melissa, so again, stick around for that, and it's very well detailed in her book. I think I heard Courtney once describe it as like, it was like seeing opera

to see Whole perform in this time span, which I did twice, and it was, she's right. Like it was like, because she was very publicly grieving. I'm so jealous that you saw them.

Yeah. I was too young. My father took me, thanks dad, to the K. Rock Ween Roast. And then they also played Lollapalooza. That was one of the best sets I've ever seen.

Both 95, so I would have been like 12 and 13 years old or whatever. If I can like set the stage for my Courtney love fandom, if you will, apart from the fact that I'm a gay man which it will all make sense but I was extremely young when pretty on the inside came out

and I was telling you that like looking back when I was like very very young like from age three until like six I was heavily into like hip hop and R&B not age three to six no but like you remember what music you loved when you were like really really little and it was like besides it being like

Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston, and Madonna. It was like TLC, like it was Envogue. It was things like that. And it was all like cassette tapes that were my sisters that I would listen to because they were like, what was around the house? And then I just remember really vividly, I must have been like seven years old. My sister was listening to some music that was like kind of unlistenable to my childlike ears. And my mother was really upset about it and was like, pounded.

on her bedroom door, which my sister had, like, locked or barricaded, so now. And was like, turn that off. And she was very upset by it because it was, like, teenage horror. And my sister was probably 10 at the time. How did your sister get a hold of pretty on the inside of 10? From Courtney Nissen, who made a copy of the tape for her. Back in those days when this is before CDs even, there would be cassette tapes, and you could put them in a double cassette tape stereo and tape the tape onto a blank tape.

And so people would pass around records that way. And that was how my sister got it. And because one of her friends, her bad friend gave it to her. And then as soon as I knew my mother hated it, I was like, what the fuck is this? I need it. Give it to me and put it straight into my fucking veins. In my veins. And so that was like how I learned about Courtney.

Nirvana, I kind of, what's really funny looking back is like my dad loved Nirvana. Really? So I actually thought Nirvana was like a little bit. Right. It's like dad music. Lamer or something or like more palatable But that's also because like My dad loved the

And this is probably years later even Because I don't know when all of these releases came out But he loved the unplugged Nirvana That came out I'm pretty positive in 90 I want to say 95 It was definitely after he died Because I remember they played it nonstop on MTV

And it felt like you were watching Someone play their own funeral Because of just the way It was so Candles It was so gorgeous, but also like really kind of gothic and sad. There was a melancholic quality to it. And like the way it's lit and it was just like, it was such a jarring experience to just watch that over and over again.

And it is such a good album. It's an album. It's amazing. It's like kind of underrated. But yeah. And it was all over the radio. Nirvana was and the whole wasn't. But then she started kind of appearing in the culture and becoming famous.

and I was, of course, just, like, glued to her. Like, he was invisible to me, honest. Like, because she was there. Right. And so, like, when I remember when he died, all I cared about was Courtney. You're like, how was my girl? Exactly. It was like, oh, no.

Courtney's husband died. It was really that. I kind of remember all of this. Like, it was yesterday. It was just so meaningful and impactful. It's so strange to talk about it because it's someone's life, you know? But for us, it was, like, these, like, larger-than-life figures that also, like, the music of these people and the place they occupied in culture changed my life.

Like they changed the wiring of my brain. Like I was, you know, 12 years old and was like, I've never heard anything like this. With Nirvana, I became so obsessed and like, you know, everything. And people who listened to this podcast have heard me tell this story a million times. But like, I found so many bands through Nirvana because of a book I read about Nirvana. But Hull did come to me after because I didn't know about Priy on the inside. I wasn't cool enough. And I, but I knew about Hull, obviously, because I was obsessed.

Ravana and I found lived through this in a trash can at middle school. Can you believe it? Who threw it away? I have no idea, but like an angel put it right on top of the trash can for me and I went by and I remember listening to it. You just saw it. It's like when you would go to the video store and it's like you don't know what welcome to the dollhouses with the cover is staring out at you and you're like, well, I have to watch whatever that is. And it was, it sounds fake, but that's literally exactly what happened. And I went home and I was like, well, there's life before lived through this and there's life after live through this. You were seduced by

Ellen von Unworth. Ellen von Unworth photo. Well, what young girl doesn't... Of course. Like the image of a beauty queen, you know, just like, oh, of course we all want that. But then the crying and it was just so alluring and then putting the album on and I, again,

I'm sorry if I'm like in reruns, but we are here to talk about whole. So I just never, I had no conception prior to that point that you could be a woman and be like this. Like all we had, even on MTV, really, you know, were pop stars. And I hadn't, you know, obviously so much existed, but I'm 12.

Remember, I don't have access to, like, Kim Gordon or Bikini Kill or whatever is going on. And I see this and I'm like, oh, you can be hyperfeminine, but also a complete, like, ravaging, angry monster. And you can be messy. but like glamorous, like all of these things in like one, I didn't know that that was even allowed. Well, what's so funny is like, of course, because I was so young at the time, when I was older,

and I'm not even saying much older because I was very precocious and I was ahead of my, ahead of the curve for someone my age when it came to like music and culture stuff, I was very like hell bent on being an adult from a very young age and wanting to know everything about music and fashion

and pop culture and all of that. So, of course, I got really into, like, Bikini Kill and modest mouse and all of these, like, bands that were sort of, like, from around the Pacific Northwest. I grew up in Northern California. It was all very, like, near, but far away to me. And all my friends were older, and they were, like, throwing shows at, like, punk houses and stuff like that. So I had sort of an access to, like, zine culture and all these things like that. But as I sort of metabolized all of those artists, it made me love Nirvana and whole more. And I feel like I got into it much later.

Well, Modisness is amazing. Because I just related more to their sort of nihilism, their sense of humor, their kind of what they were poking fun at and talking shit about in their songs, like, resonated with me. Whereas there was sort of like more of a kind of tweeness or like earnestness to some of these other. other bands that wore very thin for me quickly. I also got really into like Bay Area Punk, which is the whole other whole other

podcast. Shout out Jesse Michaels. Yeah. Rancid was big in my bedroom. But yeah, like I remember one, like a formative moment of my childhood was that I had started going to local shows. There's a

theater in my town called the Phoenix Theater in Petaluma, California. Where like all the bad kids hung out and parents would be like, you're not allowed to go there. So of course I like just walked straight over there after school and like was really annoying and like inserted myself in the Phoenix

theater like scene. And that was where I would see like Blink 1282 would come through and like no doubt and all these bands would like big bands would play the Phoenix because it's kind of a legendary little theater. And like you it's like you play the Phoenix if you're kind of on the punk touring circuit but you would play Gilman if you like are

like legit and then you would play like the film war if you were famous basically it was sort of the like my conception of that stuff I had been sneaking and going to shows at the phoenix theater but my parents would tell me that I was like too young to go to concerts right which drove me crazy because I was like you don't even fucking know what I'm up to behind your back and then um there was a live 105 which was the modern rock radio station in san francisica north yeah which it still is I think they're still playing a sublime song if you probably turn it on right now playing those of limbs. They never left the 90s. It's very eerie. They threw a Christmas show, which was, there's an L.A. one, too, that happened. Almost a ghost at Christmas.

So it's the equivalent of that. And it used to be called green Christmas or something. And then they changed it to Not So Silent Night. And I guess they thought it was better branding or thought it was a better pun. And there was one year that the lineup was like, rancid, whole, smashing pumpkins, The Cure. It was like all my favorite bands. My parents wouldn't let me go, and I locked myself in my bedroom and threatened to kill myself

if they wouldn't let me go. And they didn't let me go. But Live 105, yeah. Live 105 broadcast the entire show live on the radio, and I taped it. And so, like, one of the things that I listened to the most from whenever that was for the next, like, few years, was this cassette tape that I taped off the radio.

By 96. Yeah. Because Wild mood swings came out of that year, so that it would have made sense that the cure would have played. And again, you still back. The point I think that's really interesting is that once this started, this like 91, 92 of like alternative music, you could be a kid in that era and get it all mixed up. Like you reference Blink 22. I mean, that's a bit later. But it all kind of, the long tale of the fame of these bands.

really pushed it all the way until basically the end of the century, you know, which is actually a great way for us to get to celebrity skin. Anyways, real quick, big tour for Live Through This. Corny Love goes back to acting. She'd already done some acting in the 80s and some wonderful sitting Nancy. And what was the other one? the other Alex Cox movie Straight to hell

Straight to hell Fantastic film And then she does Basquiat And she does Filling Minnesota And then most importantly She does

A starring role in Milos Schwormons critically acclaimed Larry Flint biopic An incredible movie The People versus Larry Flint Run Don't Walk And this makes her a movie star

Like a full-on One of the greatest scripts ever written By Scott Alexander Larry Karsuski A devastating heartbreaking performance from Courtney Love

in that movie She should have been nominated Yeah she was nominated for Golden Globe, but not for an Oscar, and she did win the New York Film Critics Circle Award for Best Supporting Actress. I mean, it's an

incredible performance. She's an incredible actress. She's able to be vulnerable on screen, I think, in a way that is, like, really important to being a good actress. And funny, and, like... And charismatic and all of the things, but I think the vulnerability is what kind of, like, puts her a notch above, you know? Well, like, when you look at the kind of what...

The magnetism that drew us to her during the entire period that we just talked about. It's like, at that time, I knew it was like atomically, clairvoyantly. I knew that like I had never seen a rock star like this before my life. Totally. And that I probably on some level knew that I would never see something like that again. You know, it was like truly like a phoenix rising from the ashes moment.

Like that's like a phrase that gets thrown around. It's like a myth. But with her, it became manifest in this way that was like it was hardcore. It was scary. Because she was so powerful. She had so much raw, unbridled power, and it wasn't manicured. And it wasn't under control. It wasn't under control.

And it wasn't made pretty for, you know, purposes of commodification. It was just, it was incredible to, like, kind of behold. Again, I don't want to harp on it. And because it was a woman, you know, you might have seen that in a man, but I had not seen it in a woman. And this was probably very telling. that the thought that came to me was like, I hadn't fallen in love with a woman like that since I saw Margaret Hamilton and the Wizard of Oz.

Amazing. It's the gayest thing you've ever said. But like, here's the thing about the vulnerability is that I was worried about her. I was like deeply, profoundly worried. And like, I think that's because, like, she has that characteristic where when she's being funny, it's fucking funny.

When she laughs, you laugh. When she cries, you cry. Right. And like, that's a, People talk about John Belushi having that quality. I read this book once that said, like, he was this sort of person where if you got into the elevator with him and he was crying, you would be crying by the time you got off the elevator. You know what I mean? That's how powerful their emotional field is.

Yeah. And like, you know, whether people couldn't stand her at the time, like, didn't like her. You know, and she had approved. She had all this disapproval and misogyny kind of leveled at her. You couldn't take your eyes off her. Totally. Which is what made her a movie star. You couldn't deny the meteor that was her.

She's very famous, is what I'm saying. Right. It's movie star famous and then there's elements of like, when she did the People v. Larry Flint, they drug tested her on that movie, so she had to get clean for it. So it was also very like Courtney's cleaning up her act. Totally.

Yeah, she's like leveling up in a way. And she's in the Versace ad campaign, which is a huge thing. she starts you know she was always to me a fashion icon but she starts entering like high fashion world in a really like meaningful way Yeah and then also

She's being shot by Avidin She's makeup by Kevin Acquois She's being styled by Ariane Phillips Like Stephen Mizelle is shooting her for vogue And like she starts dating Ed Norton Yes it's all it's all very Hollywood It's all very Hollywood She signs with CAA

She's like in the belly of the beast You know And she's having a good time She's having a great time She's loving it. And people hated that. People hated it. This is sort of the rich, fertile world from which celebrity skin comes.

And then the last thing, because obviously everything is kind of tinged by the shadow of the past, is earlier in 1998, the filmmaker Nick Broomfield releases his documentary Curtain Courtney that doesn't outright say that she murdered him. But definitely. People in the documentary say she. insinuates that takes that point of view in a way. And I would just bring that up because it's like, fuck you. But also, that demon is not going away. You know, like even when she's on top of the world, that demon's not going away.

And also, it's only been four years since she lost her husband, you know? And this is sort of like all this is going on. The high, high glam, I'm in Hollywood. I'm, you know, I'm on the red carpet in that. remember the white stunning, was that Versace? Yes. With the little Bob just like

so glam. The Oscars. But then you have also all this darkness still swirling and that's what celebrity's skin kind of marries the two. Which is so cinematic and impossible to look away from also.

It's like she's always had this kind of subtext of just like drama and unpredictability that is part of what makes her so compelling. Yeah. But people were jealous.

Sure. Like straight up. It's like they couldn't believe it because it was their worst nightmare because it was secretly their dream for themselves. It was happening for somebody else and it was happening for her. Well, she couldn't take it. In my, you know, young opinion, I wasn't, you know, there in a meaningful way. But like, looking back on it, I'm like, okay, like, you're between two worlds, right?

You're between this world of, like, devotedly indie punk haters who are like, you sold out or whatever. And then you have the like, you know, gilded world of Hollywood who's like, you're not, you don't belong here, you know? Like, I don't know if everyone was saying that, but like, I'm sure she was getting a lot. There was a split, I'm sure. You read, you would read things, you know, where it's like living in between those two places. And I really feel like that's a reason celebrity skin is so impactful emotionally because it has all of that, like, in the soil of the songwriting.

And we said it earlier, this is the grief album. If you listen to these songs, these are the songs that are overtly and directly about grief and loss. It's a grief album, but also Courtney, one of her kind of defining characteristics is that she's so honest. Totally. Like she will always, she will say something about herself so you can't pin it on her. Yeah. Which is part of like, it's something that I can't get enough of. I really love it.

There's like, and I hate, and this is not a judgment. This is just how I'm describing it. There's like a little bit of a criminal mindset to someone who was like once ever a dope fiend. Like when you're a dope fiend, like dope fiends are very like manipulative people. They are always looking for like their next opportunity. They're always charming their way around people and with people. And there's this quality of like entertaining people while trying to like sort of get one over. And I'm not saying that's what Courtney was doing, but I think that she has a little bit of that in her.

her, which I find irresistible personally. Yeah. It's like a Bugs Bunny quality. Going Bugs Bunny. If that makes sense. Yeah, I just, I think they don't make them like this, I would say anymore, but ever. Like, it's just like this sort of like unbridled and sort of like unmitigated honesty to the point that it's like sometimes doesn't benefit her, you know?

Yeah. And also this like galaxy brain level way of thinking that like you hear her talk. and you're like, I'm too stupid to even like maybe even understand what you're saying. Or like there's all these instances where like you look back at these interview clips of her talking about something that's so prescient that now we're all talking about very openly. But she was talking about it nine years ago, you know, or 12 years ago. I was sending you that, of course, my favorite interview with her, everyone can go watch it. It's like seven minutes long.

It's the junket or the kind of the press, what do you call it? Yeah, like the scrum when you go backstage in an award show with. and Hull was at the 1998 VMAs during Celebrity Skin. Yeah. She's being grilled about the Lewinsky scandal, which is just so bizarre that like you're at the VMAs.

This is a KFC. You know, like we're at They're like, do you think the president should be impeached? And like she's giving these hysterical. She said, she basically says no right up front. But then later there's a part where they're, the reporters are upset that she said no and kind of dismissed the conversation.

And they're coming back at her. And they're trying to, like, impugn her for, like, saying that she didn't think that Clinton should be impeached. And she snaps back at them. And she's just, like, we make our own opinions and you don't decide them for us. And that's a good thing. And, like, who the fuck talks to the press like that now? No one has the balls. No one has the cahones, babe.

No one has their canhounds. But, like, Courtney, like, with the kind of honesty she has, she was admitting that she was ambitious. and it's like almost impossible to fathom now because of the way that pop culture is and the way that everybody's an influencer, everyone's securing the bag all the time. Oh yeah. It's like there's no such thing as selling out anymore. Yeah. Like I just want to get to the point where I can sell skincare or whatever. Exactly.

And so it's like, but she at that time was willing to admit her own ambition, which like kind of put a target on her back. Especially among these like grunge purists, whoever the fuck that is, like Caucasian guys that. hang out at coffee shops who like certainly have an opinion. Do you know what I mean? It was like, and in that same interview, she kind of gives this, it's gone viral and it's like a very popular clip of her where she's talking about how like proletariat male rock critics have real denim boomer Springsteen issues when it comes to fashion. So good.

And she kind of just like, defends and explains herself in the most like genius way in like a five second screed she's hands down the smartest person I've ever talked to in my life like I'm just like

I can't even so that's celebrity skin celebrity skin is coming at that exact moment and it's like because what the fuck else is she going to write about she's writing about grief and loss

but she's also writing about this world that she's coming to and also interesting to me is how it's like she was in L.A. in the beginning so it's she's experienced every version of

LA, you know? She's a California legend. She knows the gutter depths of like, you know, the late 80s, like, sunset strip, Jane's addiction ass L.A., you know? Yeah. She's going to laugh if she sees this, but like, when I was in high school, my best friend was 10 years older than me, she was a heroin addict, ex-junkey. She married this older hair metal glam rocker named Ron Yocum.

Carly's going to kill me for bringing this up. Who was roommates with Courtney Love in San Francisco. During Courtney's like San Francisco era. And it's like there was always stories about her and things like that because people knew her because she had been sort of this itinerant like omnipresent. Because she's always doing. Urban legend. She was always doing music stuff and being part of things.

And again, she's in Santa Nancy way prior to any of this. She was briefly the lead singer of Faith No More. Right. There's a lot of lore that we're not going to get into here. It's over the whole episode. The UK era. The UK, exactly. Liverpool, I believe it was Liverpool.

Before we talk about the song, I just want to talk also briefly about, like, what is going on in music in 1998. Because I think that's also an interesting thing to talk about. Because to me, the 90s are, like, the decade that things change the most and the most rapidly in. Like, you start on life as a highway, and you end on fucking limpiscuit. You know, like, it's just really, like, zero to 60 in fucking 10 years with the internet and everything that happened. We're pretty firmly post grunge at this point. Like, by 94, it's like, it's the Weasur Blue album. It's Green Day.

Like, things have supplanted grunge and kind of pushed it aside. Brighter, more pop-punk-y type things. Blink 128 comes along. We talked about this in the Depeche Mode episode that I was on where, like, you know, garbage was, like, getting very electronic. And, like, Depeche Mode was doing, like, this kind of electronic thing. like that people were moving into these other sonic directions. And you have also, I mean, even the pop punk is sort of like, has like an also ran next to it, which is new metal and rap rock because Marilyn Manson and Kid Rock have big albums in 98.

Limbiscuit's first album came out in 97. Corn's big commercial breakthrough life as Peachy was 96. TRL also officially launched September of 98. So this same year is where like MTV's kind of changing into this new thing. But we're still a couple years away. from Christina Aguilera, Brittany, like the pop-domism.

Destiny's Child. Yeah, although Spice World has come out in 97, so that's a kind of an important... The Spice Girls were the canary and the coal mine.

Right, totally. Of TRL Pop. And the biggest selling alternative, like rock albums of 98 were the offspring kid rock Matchbox 20. Oh, dear.

Beastie Boys Hello Nasty. Cornfall of the leader. Garbage version 2.0. Love. Smashing Pumpkin's Adore came out that year, too, which I actually also. the thing is unfairly maligned.

Interesting. And it's interesting that these records hit at the same time. But then the top selling music in general, by a country mile, music from the most motion picture, Titanic. Okay. Fucking number one. I'm going to say that doesn't count, but I understand. The miseducation of Lauren Hill. Believe.

Who can argue with that? Share. Who can argue with that? Who can argue with that? Brandy, never say never. Ray of Light by Madonna. These are all amazing albums. The double live album by Garth Brooks because one thing you bitches and hoes will never fucking forget is that Garth Brooks dominated the 90s. I don't care how much we're going to sit here and talk about alternative rock music. It was flawless until Garth Brooks's name came. My man Garth Brooks was

cashing checks all the whole decade of the 90s. You will never forget. Chris Gaines. I don't know if that one did that well, but and even the videos that top videos on MTV, they're not rock ones. It's Brandy and Monica, the boy is mine. It's Aaliyah, are you that somebody? Arrowsmith. I don't want to miss a thing. It was like the big rock video. Dian Warren, big shouts. You have one garbage video, push it, but it's in sync. It's Will Smith. It's next. It's Puff Daddy and Faith Evans and 112. Great song. I'll be missing you.

Great song. Born of Evil. So Celebrity Skin is, again, in between two places, kind of like Courtney was. It's in between this like a little lightly dying alternative rock world and this new shinier what is going to be more pop, right? I mean, it's certainly not going into new metal. But I also remember it was really dominating MTV when the album came out.

Yeah. Because they were running, I remember they ran a promotion because they're, I feel like a broken record sometimes because I bring up the same things over and over. But, and Fanatic on MTV is one of them. It's just a B in my bonnet. Like, I feel like they need to take all those old MTV Fanatic episodes and put them on Paramount Plus because they're crazy. it's crazy if you look back at everyone did one. But when Holt did theirs, it was when Celebrity Skin was coming out. And there were these amazing promo commercials that aired on MTV

where it was like Hull writing in the back of a limousine and like teaching like a fan how to like avoid paparazzi. And like you can look it up and watch it. But I remember seeing that on TV all the time. And I entered the MTV Fanatic competition to be Holes fanatic. And I was not chosen. They blew it, babe. The wrong person was pegged.

The wrong. They did forecasting there. Celebrity Skin did well. Okay, it debuted at number nine on the Billboard 200. That's not nothing. It was their first top ten album in the U.S. Even lived through this, didn't do that. Hit Platinum.

Produced by Michael Beinhorn, who famously or infamously, I guess, replaced Patty Shummel's drums with a session drummer because he was sort of a meticulous and exacting and maybe awful man. I don't know, I wasn't there, but I'm team Patty Shummel over here, so. I'm definitely team Patty, but also, like, the results. Like, the album is...

She's an incredible drummer. She could have done that, too. Yeah, of course. Yeah, I don't hear something where I'm like, Patty couldn't have done that. Anyways, that doesn't matter. but it does sort of push Patty out of the band at that point she she leaves and if you haven't seen Patty's documentary hit so hard you got it named after one of the songs on celebrity skin a great song we were talking great documentary we were banding back and forth about the songs on here and I was like man there's so like if I had to pick my favorite like maybe it's awful I don't know awful goes real hard

hit so hard is a really good drug song they were nominated for some grammies Incredible. But I'm going to tell you what happened. Adding to the war chest of awards, accolades. Yeah, they didn't win, though. They were nominated for Best Rock album. They lost to Cheryl Crow's The Globe Sessions. Big mistake.

But also look how insane the other nominees were. Cheryl Crow, Dave Matthews band, my beloved, and John Fogarty. I'm like, who programmed this? Rock is dead by 1998. This is what I'm saying. The Grammys have never gotten Rock, correct? I feel like they've never gotten an alternative, correct.

when that became a category. It's like, it's all a shame to me. This album was critically beloved. You pointed it out. Never gone to a bad review. Well, I tell you one person who is dead wrong in Entertainment Weekly, David Brown, he said. She brought that up. In the press, someone brings up the reviews and that there were three bad reviews,

and she's like, it's all personal shit. Like one of them. David Brown. Honestly play the clip. I can't paraphrase it. But she cites each of the critics and why they gave her a bad review. Like nine out of ten are good. The only ones that are bad are like personal weird shit.

Like all three bad reviews were just the EW guy. David White. I went to my first shit. He had a huge crush on me and I rejected him. She goes off and just like, I'm sorry, I win. This guy says the instruments are boisterous and brawny, but they're as conventional as those on a third-eye blind single. First of all, not the diss you think it is because third-eye blind, a phenomenal band. It's a compliment to say that.

Similarly, loves voices less blemished and technically more melodious than the box. Cut her roar, she brandished on Live Through This, but she sounds less razor-edged, more anonymous. First of all, that woman couldn't sound anonymous. What? What? Please. If she wasn't singing on pitch, they would fault her for that, too. David Brown, Retire Bitch.

But all the other ones are like, this album teams with sonic knockouts that make you see all sorts of stars. It's accessible, fiery and intimate, almost at the same time. That's a really good summation. Overflowing with commentary and bite, this is a far more complex work than the invigorating mainstream coding would lead you to believe. It is the most ambitious

and quite possibly the most revealing album Love is made. Robert Hilburn, my king, at the LA Times, fucking four stars, knocked out of park. Anyways, this is wonderful. We are getting out to the song, but this is, I'm sorry, this is what I do. I like to, I like context.

Yeah. Big themes of, well, there's lots of themes, obviously, of celebrity skin, but one that's a little more esoteric that I want to talk about is water and drowning. Water, drowning, angels. Angel stars, for sure. So awful has, he's so deep, like dirty water.

God, he's awful. Little water. What a banger that song. Hit So Hard has, he's cold, give him a candy coat. He can't swim, but he can float. One by one, they all fall down. I look at him and drown. Malibu, you already know.

Cry to the angels and let them swallow you. Go and part the sea. Oceans of angels, oceans of stars. Exactly. Down by the sea is where you drown your scars. Reasons to be beautiful. Talks about how it rains and rains. I weep at your feet and it rains and rains. Dying.

Just that song. Why don't you just take a spoon that's rusty and put it here and just carve... Put a lighter under it? Get a straw. Just carve my heart right out with that song. It's so... so... Just crack pipe

for me. But in that one she says Our love is quicksand so easy to drown. And then Heaven Tonight, which is also an incredible song. I love that song and I love that it comes

right after Boys on the radio. This is like the Ronettes portion of the album. This is about horses galloping in the summer rain and there's a storm in the form of a girl. So lots of water and drowning.

I love the dedication on that album. It's so funny to me. To all the songs. stolen water of Los Angeles and anyone who ever drowned. To all the stolen water of Los Angeles and anyone who ever drowned again. Gorgeous. Drowning theme.

To anyone who ever drowned is actually I think pretty specific because drowning feels like a metaphor also for Well also Jeff Buckley drowned. Pretty, you know, a year or two before this I think. Althea drowns in the People versus Larry Flint. Isn't there also

an Ophelia image on the back of this album? Is that right? drowned. But it is also an apt metaphor for drug overdoses. Totally. Well, and Kristen Faf died in a bathtub. Mm-hmm. She didn't.

It must have been really on her mind. I mean, after playing Althea in that movie, and there's the drowning scene at the end. It's not, sorry, spoiler. Spoiler for a 30-something-year-old movie. That's based on a true story that also you could have known what happened. But, like, truly, I feel like it's not as often brought up as, like, Amadeus or his other films, you know. So I feel like you...

It's an incredible film. It's so gorgeous. If anyone hasn't seen it or they haven't seen it in a long time, revisiting it is just, it feels so expensive. It's a good pairing with this podcast, I think, because we're talking about that era and you'll really see, you really see kind of the vibes we're coming from. Okay, boys on the radio that we didn't pick, but we are going to go with. We did pick it.

We picked it. Again, I think it's a good one. And I stand by it. It is a perfect song. We talk, it is a perfect song. Honestly, so perfect that Courtney told me that Jimmy Iveen told her that it shouldn't be a single because it has too many hooks. That song has too many hooks. And she was like, that's the greatest compliment I've ever received.

Well, we're going to, obviously we're going to get into how it started a sugar coma. Right. So, okay. So 1994, the song was originally a song called Sugarcoma, which had much sadder and darker lyrics. because... Which was in holes unplugged, which was not... Was not commercially released. I think it was aired, but it was not released.

You couldn't watch a bunch of it on YouTube. Can they commercially release it? Like, I'm so curious about these things. Who owns the recording of that? It was recorded. Well, I would... Again, I'm not a music lawyer. I assume that the actual recording is owned by MTV,

but the rights to the songs are owned by... by the label, right? But if Hull was on Interscope, like, who released the Nirvana unplugged? I'm just saying we could still get this as an album. Should we start when I was online petitions? And if you look at like the whole Reddit community, the Reddit community, the Reddit community,

with a clipboard. And by the way, which camera, where do I look? Yours is right there. Interscope records get your shit together. Like, where is the celebrity skin vinyl? That's such a great point. You can't buy the celebrity skin vinyl, babe. I walked over to Amoeba, they laughed at me.

How dare. I was laughed out of the building asking for the Celebrity Skin vinyl. It's like you have no problem reissuing Pinkerton every six months. Pinkerton is a good album. It's a good album, but I mean, celebrity skin sold more. I'm sure there's some sort of draconian, like Byzantine, you know, contractual things that we're not aware of that is, like, binding this from happening. because I'm sure they would want to make the money off of it. We want the Celebrity Skin Vinyl and we want the whole MTV unplugged, released as an album.

Free whole MTV unplugged. You're leaving money on the table. I will go stand outside the Twitter Joe. I will shove over the man who's trying to get signatures for affordable housing and be like, this is more important. Exactly. Who were some of the, like, cited influences on Celebrity Skin, the album? I remember maybe it was Howard Stern or something.

She brought up the Eagles, which I don't hear the... Oh, interesting. But like, well, I get, I couldn't get that. Like she was like, I want to do this. California.

Yeah. I don't know. I get what she's saying. Mm-hmm. Like a song like Malibu or even like, like, it obviously doesn't sound like, you know,

peaceful, easy feeling or whatever, but like I see what she means. I thought it was interesting and it didn't occur to me until I read this, but I was like, oh, I totally, this clicked for me.

Courtney said to Melody maker in 1998 that she played boys on the radio for Kim Cobain, Kurt's sister, and she said it sounded like Teenage Fan Club. And I was like, oh, that is interesting because Teenage Fan Club made similarly like shimmering beautiful songs like this. And I was like, oh, that's such a great comp. Well, according to a little website called Wikipedia. Oh, wow.

You're really going deep. Deep diving. According to Love, her vision for the album was to deconstruct the California sound in the LA tradition of bands like the doors, the beach boys, and the birds. But then she was struggling with the composition and then that was she sent the songs to Billy Corgan

and he decided to come to the studio to help. I think, yeah, I think she achieved that but in like a contemporary 1998 way and also in a very whole way. Like it sounds like a whole record. We were texting

about this before but like I hadn't put it on in a while And I was like, kind of in my head was swimming the criticisms of like, it's so shiny, it's so glossy. Like, what is this? And I was like, really expecting. I know because I hadn't heard it in a while. I was like, okay. And I put it on, I was like, this is a fucking rock record.

Like, what are you talking about? It's really just a matter of production, I think. Because, like, there's also songs on Live Through this that are straight up pop songs that are just grimyer guitar and grimeier production. Again, I'm not great about speaking about, you know, super musical. things. When you love a songwriter, you can hear their songwriting and all of their songs. You can hear their voice and their things that they return to. So maybe there's a little bit of that happening.

But I also think there's a little bit of like almost a tongue and cheek thing happening where she's going back to certain sounds of live through this being like, oh, this is what you want for me. This is what you think I'm going to do. And then she kind of subverts it into something that's a little more like pop. And that happens on all of these songs. because like there is like definitely a more kind of unhingedness about live through this. And she screams a lot more on that album that she does on this one.

It's so interesting to me because I'm like, okay, what do you people fucking want? Do you want authenticity or do you not? Because what is more inauthentic making this album or pretending to still be the for your prior version of yourself that hasn't changed and isn't occupying this? this new space? Like, is that not more inauthentic to try to fake it's so real you're beyond fake or whatever to fake this like, oh, I'm still like a fucking hard rocker, babe, I'm still, you know, like, to me that would be far, that would ring way more hollow than writing exactly from where you are.

I mean, that really gets at the crux of why I love celebrity skin so much, because, like, being that kid that was worried about Courtney Love or that was scared. of what was going to happen to her. It was like seeing her kind of actualize as this like glamorous figure and to be like have the freedom and the support and the money and all of that to like create this album that was actually about something that meant something to her and to do it in this very like grandiose way. You know, like there's a little bit of Stevie Nix, especially on this song I feel like.

Like there's Fleetwood Mac vibe to it. It just feels like she's kind of ascended. and then there were people that either celebrated it or that resented her for it. Yeah. You know, it was like she did what no other like fat, loud, hatchet-faced, punk bitch, punk rock gutter snife had ever done before, which is she became the most beautiful woman in the world.

Right. Like, she crashed the Golden Gates. Hollywood genuflected for her. It was like, She was like a lightning bolt from God to me when this was happening. I couldn't believe it. I was like, oh my God, she made it. It was like, we all made it.

Everything's going to be okay. That was like how this album felt. And it sort of felt like a victory lap. Like even as like profound and sad as the record can be at times, it was such an accomplishment to me. Well, and also everything you're saying I firmly and strongly agree with, I think like, you know, people. famously and endlessly, I don't know why this is such a human condition, they don't want you to ever be more than one thing. Yeah. You can only ever be the one thing, right?

And they wanted her to be that angry, grieving widow forever. That's who you are. Yeah. And how fucking dare you all slap your hand away if you try to do something different or be something else? That's like a tension that I think makes someone a really good celebrity or a really good. public figure or pop star or whatever it is because it's like the thing that pisses off one sect of people

is the thing that attracts another. You know, it creates kind of like an alchemy of a moment. Like imagine being a gay kid or like a 13 year old girl in the fucking suburbs. Yeah. And you turn on entertainment tonight and like that's who's staring at you from the TV.

it's fucking major. Like, it was fucking major. It's incredibly major. And there's just no, there's no way I can, like, overstate how important it was. And I can't know. I don't know what teens now have, like, in, for the currency of, you know, soothing their soul or seeing what's possible. But I hope it's not just pop stars, you know, who are like, by and large,

pretty safe and tame, and that's fine. They make good music, it's okay. Well, you get frightened that the entertainment industry might try to package something like this or that someone really canny will try and fake it, because also what was amazing about it was that it was so real. It was like you remember the Barbara Walters interview with her, and it's just brutal.

We had a little bit of this with Amy Winehouse, I think, of like someone that was being very self-destrored, and emotional and raw on this world stage. And it was like, are they going to make it? You know, like there's something to that that I think is very compelling. But it's not something to be, this is not something to be like sought after. I think we get maybe not in a way that we're like worried for their safety.

But like I think in the way that they're like an unusual pop star that does not conform to the standards. I think we have it with a lot of adult. I mean, she's kind of constantly... We have it with Kanye. Well, yeah, but we're not gonna... No. Right down that rabbit hole today, that rabbit hole is closed for business. Courtney's old friend, Kanye.

All of our old friend, no. Okay, so Sugarcoma. The lyrics, it's... I didn't ask about this, but I'm assuming it was written very close to the wake of the death of Kurt Cobain because the lyrics are, he said, I'll never, ever go away. He said he'd always, always, he would always stay.

You know, it's pretty tragic. And it's a sadder arrangement. It's really beautiful. It's really beautiful. It's a fan favorite, I think. It's a fan favorite. And I also want to poke a hole in this a little bit because I just think it is such a kind of common refrain

for people to complain when someone changes something that they love. You get demoitis, so to speak. Right. And if you go online, everyone is like, it was so much better as sugar coma. I wish they never changed it. I wish boys on the radio never happened. Fuck off.

First of all, we get to have both. No one's stopping you from listening to Sugarcoma. There's also tonally another song on Celebrity Skin that to me takes that place, which is dying, you know? Yeah. And also it's like when you listen to Sugarcoma, the chorus feels work in progress to me. It feels kind of like an unformed song. It feels a little like placeholder lyrics. We're going to get into it, but what Boys on the Radio became about is very different than what Sugarcoma was about in terms of like the theatrical consideration.

And it's so much catchier. I think the chorus of Boys on the Radio is one of my favorite choruses. It has maybe, I can't. Too many hooks, babe. Maybe the best bridge on the album. There's a lot of really good bridge. But the Malibu Bridge is like iconic, but. You don't have to choose.

We don't have to choose here on there. Melissa said about this song, it is an example of one of the songs on the record that took four years, basically, from the moment I joined the band the first time that we rehearsed together. When we put it live, it was the song called Sugarcoma

that we did for MTV Unplugged. And that was kind of a country, sad love song. Or sappy, no, sugary, love, beautiful, whatever. And when we got to the studio, we wanted to take it one step further. So we had our friend Evan Dando from the Lemonheads, who's a, you know. Yeah.

So, okay, this is on, you guys. Learn something new every day. I did listen to it, but I think she gets cut off. They made an interview CD. Do you remember this? They made a CD of the interviews. They have a couple copies on discogs, where it's just them talking about celebrity skin,

and that's from this. Dando does not have a writing credit on this song, but I don't know if he, like, juzed it a little. Again, I'm not really sure, and I didn't ask, but there's some Evan Dando moment. Melissa alludes to.

What Courtney said to me is, okay, well, during a block of songs on K-Rock in 1997, Edward and me were in the car, and I was astonished because there were four songs about me in a row. And after the ads, two more, plus glycerin. She's like every girl I've ever been friends with, I swear to God. I mean, I'm sorry. I don't know if any girl you've ever been friends with has had

four songs back to back on K-Rock about them. If you ask them, I'm sure they would say they have. She said, after the ads, I just blurted it out. And I'm not crazy. I know all these guys. Then I, of course, went ahead and did my FBI work where I was like, what songs could these have been? What songs would have been in rotation in 1997?

Let's find out. It's not that hard, actually, to piece together. Obviously, Heart Shape Box by Nirvana was still in very heavy rotation. Although, as we just recently, learned from the Billy Corgan podcast that Courtney appeared on, which was full of learnings. Learnings. Yes, full of amazing learnings. That the chorus of Heart-shaped Box is apparently about Kim Gordon.

Hey, wait, I got a new complaint forever in debt to your priceless advice. And the rest of the song is obviously about Courtney's heart-shaped box. Food Fighters all stick around is, was for many years allegedly about Courtney. But Dave Grohl wrote in his book, I don't think it's any secret that I'll stick around is about Courtney. I've denied it for 15 years. Yeah. I'll stick around.

Right, right. It's a mean song about Courtney. Swallowed by Bush, I would imagine, would be on the radio at this time. To me, arguably the best Bush song. I love that song. Now I know why. Everything but my love swallowed. Yeah, so that's a little Courtney moment.

Crush with eyeliner by R.E.M. Q. Courtney has said, and I believe her, that this is at least partially about her. I believe it's also partially about just clam rock and the New York Dolls. But I think she is a muse of this song. There's one Smashing Pumpkin song off Siamese Dream that is about her, but I don't think it would have been on the radio, which was Luna, one of the most beautiful songs. Just fucking, what? Imagine that song's about you.

If I just that one song about me, could die happy. there's some speculation that there are multiple other Smashing Pumpkin songs about Courtney. Probably. Zero and Tonight Tonight in particular, which also would have been on the radio in 1997. But what I love about the Smashing Pumpkins is that their lyrics are so not didactic in that way.

You never know what they're talking about. Yeah, he's always talking about some bitch named June who doesn't exist. Yeah, his lyricism is very like phonetic and kind of abstract. Right. But I do like there's like a little, little like FBI moment of, of tonight tonight because smashing pumpkins were like, that's not about her, it's about himself.

He says, you know, in your city by the lake, the place you were born, he was born in Chicago by the lake. But there is some footage of him in different recordings saying City by the Bay instead of City by the Lake, which Courtney was born in the City by the Bay. So was I.

Yeah. Other songs just for funsies, you guys, that are about Courtney Love but did not come out until after 1997. That was like the new radicals you get what you get. The new radicals, which is not even about Courtney, but go to their mansions, rob their mansions, kick their asses. Courtney Love and Marilyn Manson. Yeah, you get what you give by the New Radicals.

Hall a Back Girl by Gwen Stefani. Wait, what? Wait, have we never talked about this? That's her like shots fired song at Courtney. Yeah. Oh my God, that's so corny. Because she was like, Courtney did an interview with like 17, some sort of teen magazine and was like, basically like, I'm not,

like, Gwen Stefani's like the cheerle. leader at the high school and I'm the girl smoking cigarettes in the bathroom. She wasn't even like taking shots. She was just being like she's the popular pretty girl and I'm like the bad girl and Well, that was a little bit like she's not really rock. Well, yeah. That it's. I think she might have also been mad about some interactions between Courtney and Gavin.

I believe earlier we talked about how Courtney doesn't lie. No, yeah. She's not lying. Did she lie? No lies to detected. Anyway, that's what Hallow Back. So thank you, Courtney Love that you, if you like Hollaback Girl, you can thank Courtney Love.

Everyone loves Hollaback Girl, to be clear. Yes, it's a great song. Good job for all. Good job, once off of honey. Starfuckers Inc. by Nine Inch Nails off the Fragile. I fucking love that song, too. Courtney Love and Marilyn Manson also very much like the new radical song.

Yeah. The Strokes Meet Me in the Bathroom is allegedly about Courtney Love. Well, then she in turn wrote Julian, I'm a little bit older than you. Exactly. So anyways, that's the basics. I can't wait for her song about Cameron Winter. We all know it's good. coming. Oh, dear. Oh, my. So that was the impetus, right, hearing these songs on the radio.

And then she also said, and I loved this, Courtney said, those songs on the radio were the, that was the basis of the song. But as I wrote it, I decided to make it an empathy song, the best ones, no longer about staking a claim for myself. It's about all those boys. One of the songs was one of the two Scott Weiland wrote, I kind of remember, who was never a lover, a drug buddy probably closer than a lover. But I busted him on why the fuck he was writing a snark about me. And he said, you're just too easy and I was tired. Anyways, the whole, my point being that it was, she decided to make boys on the radio. She shifted the perspective to having empathy for these boys on the radio. And I think

that's where you also get the line about Jeff Buckley. In your endless summer night, that lyric is about Jeff Buckley. Because he died, he drowned on a summer night, you know, when the water is too deep. I saw someone say something that I thought was so beautiful on Reddit, my favorite website. It's the only place the truth exists. Honestly, I mean, there's some real poetry to be found there, but somebody had said something, and I don't even really feel like this is accurate, but I was like, what a beautiful thought, that they were talking about how, in that lyric on Boys on the Radio,

endless summer night being about depression and death and whatever else. And she says, I'll be on the other. side, of course, meaning like, I'll be here living while you're gone, but that you can flip it around and it's like she's singing to the listener of the song who might be feeling that way, that she's on the other side. She's on the other side of like the radio speaker. Like that I'm over here. And I was like, that's so moving that someone would like receive it like that.

I love that. I know. I'm going to cry. She put the empathy in and it was received whether, you know, whether it was in a different way. And I just love how she sings that chorus. It sounds like me, nah, man, it's like Corgan-esque a bit. This song, by the way, to be clear, does not have a Corgan writing credit on it. I think it's another reason why I'm glad we did this particular song off of celebrity skin

because even though I think it's pretty stupid and unfair the way people talk about Corgan's involvement on this album them and give him like the lion's share of the credit for it, at least, at the very least on this song, you can't say he had anything to do with it because he didn't. But also, isn't that because I'm like, Jane, don't use this? No. Like, isn't that because there was some dispute where he said that, like, she wasn't crediting him enough or, like, that she was downplaying his credit. So then everyone then reacted by giving him too much credit. There was, like, a whole feud afterwards that I, like, didn't dip my toes into. But I think he said something publicly about how it's like he has a bad taste in his mouth about the album or like, and then Eric was like,

but he just came in and kind of like vibe tweaked some songs. So it's unclear what happened, but that aside, nothing here. So she said she heard these, this rock block. Courtney is the muse rock block. You've heard of a cock block. Right. Have you heard of a rock block? Inspired by Courtney.

She wrote the lyrics to the song to Boys on the Radio and she said she decided to make it an empathy song because those are the best ones. That's the divine feminine coming in. That's the divine feminine. 100%. Like truly. That is the divine feminine. That's the difference.

And this song has this like beautiful feeling of like warmth and tenderness and safety in it and sadness and sort of like all in there. And a little bit of like obsession. Yeah. And adulation. Well yeah. And the fandom. idolatry.

Yes, of course. The idea of being a fan. One of my favorite things about the song is, like, how it ends. Because she goes into the chorus again, but then she changes the lyrics. And there's this lyric where she says, When the water is too deep, I will ease your suffering. When the glitter fades in mourning, turn away and you will find my empty eyes. Which is, like, insane to me.

That's the most genius insane lyric, because it's like, I'm done crying for you, actually. It's like, you know. know, like, you're not here anymore. Like, when the glitter fades in mourning, I've had it, you know? It's like sort of like, you left me here. Yeah. And then she goes into, I know that you're right into the core. Yeah.

It's like that it's eating you alive, actually, how much you love these men. Yeah. Like that it's actually toxic in a way. It's so smart. The lyrics are brilliant. The song is brilliant. It feels so good. I love that Courtney told me she was like, I prefer to lie about songs because I think it's

more interesting. So she's had multiple. other stories about the song, meaning she told Spin that it started all peppy and poppy, but then Jeff Buckley died, and it became an homage to Evan Dando and Jeff and Brian Wilson. So I guess that's the Evendando of it, right? They were just thinking of the sort of tragic Evendando in 1998. It's about self-destructive pop boys. And I can't help just because it's Courtney to think that she's like twisting the knife a little bit in the song of like,

oh, you're so miserable. You're suffering. You're so beautiful. Like, oh, we care because, like, she is a little, like, jealous and competitive. Also, it's, like, the luxury of this pink pussy had a better if I can get a nice one because to keep putting it back on my head is a luxury of men to wallow to feel sorry for yourself and to make that beautiful and glamorous and seductive. It's not beautiful and glamorous and seductive when women do it.

Courtney was like, I have to get on with fucking business over here. Like, for me to achieve what I've achieved, I can't sit around and feel sorry for myself. But she's like, I'm going to be here for you. And she's like putting herself in the position of like the adoring fan. But she's also being like the mother that's caring for them. She's being like all of these sort of like feminine archetypes within this song in this way. And it comes across like really sincere and really sweet. But then if you think about it, it's kind of funny.

as with like a lot of I think things that Courtney does always has like a streak of humor in it I like this other interpretation which came from that whole interview CD she said it became about a girl who sits alone in her room and listens to the radio the boys on the radio sing to her and promise her that when she gets to heaven they'll be there

she thinks all the songs are about her so not that different from the actual spark of inspiration but then that's such like and that's some pretty literal meaning but it's such a funny thing to make a song about. Yeah. And she did say this one thing which I wanted to ask you about. She said,

a song like Boys on the radio is really pretty, but there's subversion going on. And I think that's what you just kind of nailed with the way the lyrics twist at the end. And like, if you're not listening closely, you won't catch that subversion. Exactly. And the bridge that I brought up earlier that is my favorite

is when she says, like, if I let you in under my skin and risen every angel slain, he said he'd never ever ever go. The heavens, heavens, heavens no. Yeah. Kept that a bit from sugar coma. Yeah. And then never, ever, ever go

away and she goes, baby, I've gone away, which is the most like gut punch like sugar-coated like sugar-rush of a lyric, I think on this entire album. It's like so like you know, it's like euphoric when you hear her say that line. But it's also histrionic and it's hilarious because that's the point in the song where she's

like, I've died. Like I'm dying with you. I'm going with you. It's like the extreme devotion moment of like she's like so she feels it so much that she could just die. And like fans feel that with artists. Which is how I felt about Kurt Cobain when I was 11 years old. It was like, take me with me with.

Kind of, like, speaking of being history on it. Don't leave me here. Just like hormonally miserable, 12-year-old, like, misunderstood, ugly braces, one, one eyebrow, okay? Acne, like, frizzballs, this childbearing hips. It was-fat, sunburn, Catholic school uniform, calic, crooked teeth. Pick a struggle, but I had nine. Gay. And I'm just, these were my saviors.

and I was like taking me with you and this song really gets to the heart of that and not until I was 43 would I understand the rest of it? I mean, thank you for forcing me to pay this much attention to this song. You know? You know, we don't do this enough.

You just hear it in the car and you kind of sing along ambiently and like certain things hit sometimes and some things don't. I'll close it out by saying a quote from the Spin magazine cover story in 1998.

about Boys on the Radio by the writer Isabel Castro Cota. Not this one. This one's 95. She said, I just really loved how she said it, and I think it kind of sums up everything we've been talking about. I'm really glad we chose this song,

because I think in the end it really was the perfect choice. Well, you are the subject of the song, and all the boys on the radio are all the bands that you're explaining. That's so true. I'm just mooning by the radio. This is your theme song. So Isabel Castro Cocha said,

there was undying anger and love and contempt in boys on the radio, mythic poetic images of vanity and self-loathing, all interwoven in a pop melody. And that's the magic trick of the song, right? That it is a sugary pop song that contains within it all of this depth and barbs and no Nikki Manage and intellectualism and mythology. It's just like what's crammed in and complex. complicated emotions into this beautiful, like, mew, medicine. Well, what else do you expect from a genius?

Amen, brother. I hope that everyone that wished that it would have stayed sugar coma can now appreciate this song in a different way. Right. Because it's obviously, there's more to it than some people. It definitely was elevated, I think, from, while sugar coma is a great song, and that feels sort of just like a raw, emotional missive, this is something like, far more intricate and interesting.

Agree. Well, Patrick Samir, thank you so much for taking time out of your busy life to... It's my pleasure. Talk about boys on the radio. Please stick around for my interview with Melissa Oftermar right after this. You guys, I'm so excited to be talking to musician, artist, and author, Melissa Oftermar. Did I pronounce that correctly? Perfect.

It's a little German studies. over here, whose new book, Even the Good Girls Will Cry, colon, my 90s rock memoir, just recently came out. And you guys, this is, you got to, you got to, look at what I did here. You got to get into this.

Very curious. There is all of my favorite things. There is goss. There is tea, but there is also spirituality. There is philosophy. There is reflection. It's good stuff. Melissa, am I see it?

Oh, yes. I'm going to flip through while you. Well, you asked me questions. I'm just so excited to be talking to you, obviously. Thank you. I've heard amazing things about you. Los Angeles, you know, is a far away sister city for me. And I'm very excited to be here for a weekend occupation.

And you're a new music woman to meet. So nice to meet you. So nice to me. Well, you know, you lived here, right? You've had your time in the trenches. Serious chapter, which the book, yeah, ends in my, you know, towards the end of that celebrity skin. an ode to California and then I eject and leave once I leave Whole.

Yes. But yes, I had a very deep chapter here. Just in case for like the three people who are watching this who don't know who Melissa Offermore is because like you're just obviously kind of on the wrong podcast. I'll be honest. We welcome you all. Absolutely. She was one of the bassists of Whole, but in my young life and in many people's eyes,

the most iconic and memorable basis. I was there the longest. You were there the longest. Not the competition, but it is the fact that I was there the longest of any of the other base players. And at the height, you know, like really at the breakthrough period. Post lived through this coming out and all the sort of real MTV moments and the touring, the fan, the Lollapalooza, that young 12-year-old. Actually, I would have been 13, 13-year-old, the Aussie attended. And I feel like, did you guys play the Karaok Weenie Roast that year, too?

Yes. Yes, I was there as well. My dad brought me to that. Yeah, yeah. Manager. And also she played in smashing pumpkins. So no big deal, just. Back to back.

For the music at all, I feel that's actually a good entry point for me to say. Like, one thing that I really loved about the book that you did is, and this was just you being honest and being authentic, but you're very good at reminding people through the story that these were bands in a subculture. These were underground bands that were playing these small places and it was word of mouth. Because I think, you know,

for people in 2026 who weren't there at the time, these are massive, iconic. It's impossible to imagine that they didn't come fully formed right on to MTV on a major label. That they were playing for $1 in front of 20 people, which is one.

Looney Night. Looney Tuesdays. Lunary Tuesdays. Lunary Tuesdays. Canada, which is how I was exposed to all these bands. Yeah, as like a ticket girl DJ. I watched. And the book is an ode to the decade that defined me in my generation, 91 to 2001. So the listeners know it's a very specific arc of that 10 years and what I witnessed as a girl obsessed with music and then who joined the big bands. But as a just comment on general what happened in that decade, how suburb. culture went to mainstream and the hijacking of visceral zeitgeist youth power into corporate hellzone. So I'm very clear that that's what I want the reader to join me on is when something so magical and innocent slash demonic, the cool, like the way that the explosion from 90 to 94 was phenomenal.

And then very quickly we got bought and sold and everything just went to pretty, you know, literally death, drugs, you know, soul-sucking situation in the second half of our 90s music things. So, yeah, I really wanted to do a lot of things with this book, but I wanted to make sure that I brought the reader into the innocent place of me as a teenager who fell in love with the music, who then somehow joined her favorite bands. But it's, yeah, it's a ride of, it's a telling tale of what happened and how we got here now with the corporate tentacle techie creepyzoids. Yeah. It's a common theme on Bansplan actually where I talk a lot about how, in my estimation, the 90s were the most, like, change crammed into one decade. Like from the way the world was in the turn of 1990 and the way the world was when the clock struck. 2000, two different universes. Well, we went through the portal of the 21st century and we were the generation that

and the youth culture that birthed the painful, I mean, I see us like literally screaming through the birth canal of the 21st century. We were arrived in a new universe between Y2K and 9-11, which is where my book ends, it's simply clear that we no longer live in the same world. And it's not that the 90s music is like the best, but it is the last of that analog reality and that our generation, like all artists of any generation, have a psychic premonition of what's around the bend. Just like the turn of the last century. I look at things in hundreds of years, not in decades. And I studied photography and art history.

And I'm looking at, you know, what were the turn of the century, romantic movements in the industrial. revolution a hundred years before and we were just a reflection of the the brave and terrifying shift of a clock that was more dramatic and most artists kind of had kind of had lived in a certain similar analog way for hundreds of years until the digital arrival yeah I also think one thing that like it was a real be careful what you wish for protect me from what I want if you want to have a Jenny Holder moment is like the minute the subculture became mainstream, it was like one year of like, yes, this is so cool. And then with it, like you said, comes so much shitstorm and terrible. And now I think I talk a lot to like younger people

where I'm like, I can't, if I could bottle the feeling of being 13 years old and going to Lollapalooza and being like, oh my God, there's other kids like me who like this weird stuff. Like it wasn't everywhere, you know? And now it's like impossible, in a good way. Like I just came back this morning from Boise, Idaho, going to a Tree Fort Music Festival. And I just looked around and it was like every kind of subculture represented often in multiple ways in one person, you know. It is very different. It is cool.

The mix, and you hear it in the music. The cool new music is like not one kind. And we were still in a more black and white, not. 1900s categorization. Even me as a multimedia artist, I was a photographer, musician, and I remember it's sort of being suggested, like, well, you have to pick one. No, I'm a renaissance person, I'm going to pick all. And that's what's so exciting. And I'm so grateful is that in my 50s, in this decade, I get, and this year, 2026, I get to present myself to the world as an author and as a photographer. And I'm forever a music fan first.

in music is what is the subject of so much of these, this new creative force I have decided I want to share with the world, but it is a, it is because I want to connect with people about that innocent subculture moment that that we are still trying to unpack of like we, you know, we did see a lot of, um, the greed kind of ruin. And I love that there is alternative, everything everywhere all the time. But because it's all done through so many corporate stamps, every single platform. Well, I'm not sure it's alternative anymore. Well, exactly.

Just like it's baked into the word. It's alternative to what. What's alternative now is the alt-right, you know, unfortunately. Exactly. It's true. That's true. But they're not saying that at urban. Yeah.

It's more that the corporate tentacles are everywhere and everything is monetized through a corporate platform. and that even the coolest musicians at this point are branded and associated to some giant. You know, we were trying to resist that. Like I remember so clearly, you know, the beginning of being offered like fashion campaigns for Courtney and just it being shocking that, you know, now every band, but I don't blame them. They literally need sponsorship because you can't make money in any other way. I don't even. It's just such a different beast, yeah. No, we always pinpoint it back to the, I think, the shins.

in a McDonald's commercial or something. I always have a triangulation of like the point we're selling out stopped existing and this is no shade to the shins. Like 100% take that McDonald's chip because that came basically on the heels of pirated music.

So like CDs stopped selling, you know? You stopped being able to make money and now everyone's like, yeah, we'll be in a Taco Bell ad. Yeah, exactly. Or else I can't pay rent. It's not the artist's fault. I'm just saying that our creative communities reflect the evolution of the corporate takeover

of everything. And that's what I'm also. so really desperate to want to be in dialogue with cross-generational music, art people on this tour of this book. It's like, was there something like particular about this timing? I presume it took you like a year or two to write the book. But this timing that you were like, oh, I need to do this. Yeah.

Like it's getting to a fever pitch. I need to write this now. Definitely fever pitch exploded out of me like a weird waterfall volcano of just, blah, downloaded the whole book in a year. It was a combination of very, very personal, about to turn 50, daughter going to be a teenager, me wanting to unpack my coming of age story for myself and healing, but for also my daughter to like not have to carry my garbage. Like we have a job to do as parents to like move through our big lessons. And a lot of what happened in the night, I definitely went running from a lot of the 90s when I ejected my.

myself from that big machine. Yeah. So there was a lot of unresolved stuff. My father died really young during the in the 90s. I needed to like heal unpack that. And there was just enough time that had passed that I felt like I could objectively look at it. But it was also mainly to participate in the cultural reflection that a quarter of a century passed is exactly when you can start pinpointing the ripple effect. And what is still my hope is to hunt, what is missing, what is still.

what is still alive between what made the 90s magical. And it's not a nostalgic thing. It's just a humanist thing. Like, what are we missing now that we had then? What can we learn from the 90s? What can we bring back? And then what is still intact? So it's a way for me to participate in the dialogue

because the world has gone to a pretty garbage crap. And I want to be able to be part of the solution. Yeah. I don't want to just sit back. And I mean, that's not just not the type of person I am, but I want to be able to be out there and learn from this dialogue with you, with the Q&A tomorrow when we talk to an audience. I just want to, like, better understand, take the temperature and bring my lens to it. This book is my mission statement of the lens and perspective of my experience riding that end of the analog era.

And now that it's out in the world, what's going to come back? I'm just going to learn a lot. I want to learn about where we're at so that my daughter and her teenage friends can have a cooler future if possible. Totally. Yeah. I'm so interested in that project because I like, I go back and forth all the time where I'm like, I don't want to be like old man shaking my fist at the clouds, you know, because I'm like,

okay, well, I'm sure my parents looked at me at 15 and was like, what are you doing? This is dumb. Weirdly, though, in my book, it's clear. I don't come from. I come from super progressive countercultural parents. So, like, that's why I am convinced that the counterculture people who are born from counterculture people, I'm pretty progressive and I am concerned about what the youth have today. They are being dealt a very bizarre way of interfacing with the world and art and each other.

And I'm pretty pissed at the corporate tentacle creeps that have come, between youth and life experience. Of course there's good shit in the internet. I'm not saying the internet is evil. Right. But the mechanism of the internet is evil. I mean, think whatever just happened this week, the meta is officially held accountable for making an addictive product. I would love to throw my lawsuit in the ring here.

That's how I kind of know that it's not 100% me being out of touch because I'm like, well, whatever like 16 year olds are suffering from, I'm also sick with it. You know, like I promise, like, I'm ill as well, like, on my phone in the same way. Absolutely. It's not the young people's fault. That's why my daughter and her friends, they know me as, like, the super cool but unbelievably annoying mother that's like, oh, you see that? And then the new joke lately has been like, Melissa, River's never going to fall in love because she's on her phone because I'll, like, storming.

I'm like, you are not going to fall in love on that. You know that, right? You are not going to find the magic of music there. You have to get out into the world and find that person. and find the band. So I'm both the cool, fun, and really direct. This thing will get in between you and happiness. Yeah. So, but yeah, me too. Of course, I have like all fractured. My brain is like in 17 places. I have no attention span anymore. I'm like, wow, that's interesting. So it's not their fault. It's like we're all suffering from this. And every single thing is like an app, like every friggin like

check in, every bank. I get it. There's conveniences that we need, but we also need to be super aware and that's what my book is trying to be part of, is aware of how we got here. Yeah. And also where we're going. I mean, don't get me started, like, that it came out,

that Pokemon Go was actually just a way to gather. It's like the most nefarious thing is that not only are they, are they, like, profiting and benefiting off our addictions, they are, they are, we work for them for free.

These kids walked around catching Pokemon, like they were playing a game. And what they were doing was mapping the world. for these, now they have maps. I have not heard of this, but I'm not surprised. Now this company has gathered like complete maps of all places in different weather, in different times of the day, because kids were filming to catch these Pokemon goats. Unbelievable. No, I mean, they were just all pawns in the big, like it's like the Wizard of Oz, the big, you know, this weird wizard behind the curtain.

I mean, they're just manipulating. We know this. And it's not that it's always been like this. It's just that the tools are way more infiltrated in our daily life. And like living a pre-surveillance era, which I talk about in the book in the 80s when I was like a teenager coming up in like goth clubs and just nobody watching and like that whole thing of dance like nobody's watching. Yeah. That's how free life was. The self-consciousness of youth not being able to just be free alone in their room, bored, finding things to do.

It was weirdly safer. I was having a conversation with a girlfriend of mine. is a musician. She's about 29. And I was trying to explain to her. I was like, I don't think you understand like every decade has gotten harder for people to have fun in a free way. Like, it's in your book a lot and I was really struck by it every time. Like, you know, there's like, people are just doing fun things. You're out till four in the morning. You might do one line of cocaine here. Like, you can't do a line of cocaine here now. You need a testing strip and a lab. You know, like. And I'm not saying go do cocaine. That's not what I'm saying. But it's just like,

you used to be able to just have a kind of a fun and free existence. And then you think back, it's like the 70s were even more like that and it was more pre-AIDS, you know? It's just every decade brings with it these like new restrictions on how unsafe it is to just be a person in the world. And then I'm going to bring it even more specific to women. So like women's safety, which I always say to my teenage daughter and her friends, never take women's. safety for granted, never take your, you know, your body rights for granted and that we all know about the predatory nature of social media and the likes and the self-consciousness. But what I'm more freaked out about is that there's an illusion that you're safe because you have

a phone. Like people are not being trained to actually, like, when I was a young girl walking alone at night. Yeah, you were. Yeah, exactly. Aware. Exactly. Aware. It's like the, and so they don't even have, they're not even being trained to use their 360 like protection. Like it's, it's not only more dangerous because you could be, have a predator in your bedroom alone with your parents or driving you home in an Uber. That happens all the time. I just cannot believe that it is more dangerous and the sense of protection is being lost. So I don't know. I feel like as just like a woman out there, I've got to go out not to just like only reframe the fact that Courtney was burnt at the stake and holds legacy is in the gutter and it shouldn't be, but also to just talk to young women today

about how they move through the world. Right. Yeah. I'm so glad you brought that up because I read this that you said something to the fact that you wanted this to be a full-throated defense of Courtney Love and as you know, I'm a Courtney Love truther. I will, to anyone who will listen. I'm like, I don't think you understand that you'll never meet a more intelligent person as long as you live, like. Nor a more punk powerhouse person. Right, right. Not male or female. I think you, in the book you referred to, she was like, something about her, like, dignity and her, her, like, morality. Noble. And she's extremely noble, you know, like, and always, there's a clips very cleaning out. I think I saw she actually posted it as well. Oh, yeah. She's

always predicting fascism. predicting the future. Always. No, for monopolies, taking up. And no one listens. And then 10 years later, they're like, oh, Courtney Love said that. And we're like, yeah, Courtney Love said that. So that, I think is great. I was curious. Like you, you had a firsthand view. You're what, about 22, 23 years old. You had a first hand view of how Courtney Love's fame was intertwined with how she was treated. You know, the more famous she got, the worst, I think, people treated her and the media was horrible. Did that affect your personal relationship with fame and your interest in having it?

or not having it? Well, I never wanted it to begin with. So I was horrified from the moment I stepped into Hull. It's like why I said no is I didn't. I want a life as an artist. I want a life of integrity. I'm not in it for fame, fortune anything. So when I reluctantly joined Hull, I was doing it for women's progress and for women's right to be at the table and be part of rock history. I never did it for fame. I reluctantly dealt with the fact that she grew more famous mixed with her own ambition because she also is unapologetic of her power. Her plan was always more power to have more of a platform. And I'm, that's just not who I am, but we were a good counterbalance because that was not my style of change. But I also benefited from her brave. And so I get to put it this book out

because I was a long side for the ride. But, no, I was pretty much appalled by the whole thing, you know, and she put herself out there in such a, I mean, she actually, like, sent me a note this week. It's so sweet. We're closer than we've ever been. We were close then, but when I left the band, we lost touch for about a decade. But she sent me the sweetest, you know, congratulations.

It seems like the book is going great. I'm so happy you're out there. You're so diplomatic. I have to lock myself up or I'll be canceled every day. And it's just, we were just always the opposite of each other. And I watched her just, she did what she had to do to survive. And she needed quite literally to scream and stay agive and be received by the audience, received by the press, get clean, become a Hollywood movie.

All of that is what kept her alive. She just needed to move forward. It's so much more complicated than ambition. It's like, this is survival. This woman just needed to be alive. And all of the superficial idiots are like, she's just ambitious and wants to be famous or just looking for attention.

Yeah, have you ever thought about why? Why would this woman need to have attention? And that's why I was always of a defender too, but I like that I now have a quarter century and my own understanding of my very private perspective to the, you know, six feet to the right of her every night and seeing the shotgun shells being thrown at her, seeing the mixed bag of the audience that are,

some desperate teens who love her, some haters, some just like what we received from the audience and from the press and from the industry taught me everything about humanity. And she was the avatar of the wild Medusa woman. And I learned so much by being next to her. And I now have the privileged quarter century perspective where I feel like I actually, I need to join this conversation and tell anyone who wants to think about the arc of women and the demonization of women, I have a valuable opinion that I want. And she was the one who

sacrificed herself, and we all witnessed it. And benefit. I mean, I... Yes, and benefited. My arm is up because I've cried on this podcast talking about it for. I was 12 years old and found, lived through this CD in a trash can and it changed my whole life. Amazing. And I guess I've heard that, yeah.

It was obviously because of the music, but also because I never I had never seen that it was possible to be a pop. What Corny was was a pop star, really, you know, by that point. But she was messy and chaotic and imperfect. And that had not been presented to me as a possibility of a way to be a woman. And it made me, who had messy and complicated and angry feelings, feel like, oh, it's okay. You know, like, there's a path for, like, you can also be glamorous.

Absolutely. And, you know, like, all these things can exist. one package. Yeah. Yeah, we were pushing, we were pushing it forward, pushing what women can be, which we were only at that point, like 50 years or 60 years into the rights to votes, the right to have our own credit cards. You know, it's so new, this movement of women having autonomy over their own anything. There's still like all biology of our sexual experiences. Everything's been written by men, four men, with no understanding of women. We are still They just invented perimenopause two years ago.

Exactly. I was like, oh, sorry, have we not known about this? This existed forever and you guys just found out about this. And that's all because they want us to buy the drugs. It's all just pharmaceuticals. They want us to buy gummies for our hair growth. And I'm like, no, but can I have some real medicine? You guys, I don't know what I mean?

Science. Oh, my, yeah. Anyway, yes, it's a, we're so early in the game of what should be happening as women running the world, you know? It frustrates me to know because I'm like, it shouldn't be, like, it shouldn't even have to be a feminist act to exist and to be who you are. And it's such a litmus test for me, especially with men, the way they speak about Courtney Love. Like, it's an immediate tell for me. I know what kind of man you are, you know? And even like men who I think they've interrogated their own misogyny, think it's okay to be misogynistic against Courtney Love. And they don't really understand that that's what's going on there. You know? No, I like it when I, um, meet men and it's not that often but younger ones I'm now seeing have said I've heard it a couple times the last couple years oh whole was the better band well that's a big deal when a man says that yeah about you know and it's funny yeah and then the opposite ones were like well I was

a Nirvana fan so I'm like so what so that means you couldn't be a whole fan you know like it's like it's just like it's such a it's so telling yes okay well just to take it back to a slightly different subject. So you talked about just now, like you're not interested in fame. I wonder, though, does being seen have value for you? Absolutely, yes. Which is definitely where I'm at at this moment. Right.

And the joy and profound gratitude I have that I released a book a week ago, and I have been received obviously here, but Drew Barrymore's show. My book events have been selling out, and second nights are added. And that feels incredible, not just because I worked really hard and I want to spread the message of what I'm trying to, you know, lift the hood on. But it is that I stepped away from public eye for a long time for a reason to become a mother,

but also to experience life outside of what had been 17 years of touring and playing on stages. as a performer, but also as a young girl, I grew up in the shadow of my politician father. I grew up in the spotlight of a small city, and I needed to just inner world. And I did that, and I learned a lot, obviously, becoming a mother, biggest transformation a person can ever experience. But there was a missing part of what I'd always had, which is this dialogue with the outside world. you know, so some people maybe are satisfied to be seen by their parents or their husband, wife, their partner. There's something in my like lifetime, this, however I came into this lifetime and the destiny I have with Courtney and Billy and whatever my father's destiny was of being in the public eye, that I do actually, it's not fame.

It is a recognition in this sort of public, private conversation between my inner world and the big outer world of people. who need art and archetypes to understand themselves. I am someone who found myself through Robert Smith and Morrissey and I found myself through Botticelli's birth of Venus and art. I needed, that's how I got, that's how I developed. And I like participating in being that archetype for a young person who is looking for themselves. So I step back to become a mother to make sure I provided my daughter, a real human mother. But I'm excited for her to go out now. She's 14 to find herself, and I'm excited to come back out and talk to anyone who needs to hear from a weird archetype avatar, the bass player who disappeared, the redhead, the Canadian, whoever I am, if I can help

somebody find their way like so many people did for me in the public and art world. So it's not obviously fame, it's being seen in a strange, like, other dimension. You know, you find yourself in other people, just like everyone says, like a marriage or a close, close relationship, you are a mirror to each other. But there's something about strangers and public performers that are mirrors to each other. Yeah, we need someone or something to project. Yeah, to learn. Yeah.

To grow. To learn about ourselves. Yeah. And I do think it's really. interesting because, you know, in your book, we learn a lot about you, but it's not the common archetype you learn about, right? Because like, most people would learn about a Courtney or a Billy, right? It's the from person that you kind of learn about. And I thought it was, it was really interesting to read about the bass. Literally, I mean, like, being like, I played bass for two seconds in a

band, I'm terrible at it. And it was literally only because, like, my friend was like, like you look cool. I want you to be in my band. And I was like, I would love to be a band. I have zero musical talent. He was like, you couldn't do the bass. And I was like, like, Sid Vicious. I can't even like unplug it.

But I do feel like someone, I think someone said it to you in the book. I can't remember who it was, but that like nobody's first choice is the base. But that was your first choice. Because you knew yourself really well. Even at that young of an age that you were like, I don't really want to be out front. I just want to be part of it. Exactly. I'm a team player.

I'm a collaborator. I wanted to join my generation's movement, and I was obviously in love of music, and I had been lucky to grow up on my mother's record collection and went to art school as a kid. So I was already in, like, the magic of music and art, and I wanted, and I could feel something bubbling in my generation, and when I got to see Hole in the pumpkins and Sonic Youth and everyone in, like, 90, 91, I felt, I could feel the wave. Anyone that was there just knew, whoa, and I wanted to keep. catch it. So I had to pick the most subtle position on the stage to do it. And I, you know,

I get crap for this all the time. But, you know, the bass is the easier entry. It's easier to fake it. Sure. And people have, yeah, I mean, like, drumming is like a sport. You know, lead singer, you can't be shy. You got to have something to say. You have to be able to scream shredding guitar players. So it was like an easy way for me. I also go from like A to Z. I went from A to Z. I had a base for a year. then I joined whole. But I think that does diminish your musical talent because you obviously were a really good bass player. I mean, I clearly have a natural feel for it. And recently, Billy actually broke it down on his podcast. It was the first time I've ever been told by my musical mentor, what my feel is as a bass player. Yeah, I watched that. He was saying about how you're more aggressive

than all the other. I got my head of the beat. And I was like, like, John Bonham and John Paul Jones, it's like a particular thing where some bass is laid back, some basis is on, and I guess mine is ahead, and there is like a push, a pulse or something. And that just, I do believe, comes innately. Like, bass is you either feel it or you don't. And I definitely felt it. But I am, and which is how I got in so quick to bands, yeah. So cool. Do you think it's too late for me to be in a band?

No. Okay, good. I'm polling. I'm polling people. Once again, Fender, Corporates, if you're listening, you want to send me. me a guitar. I'm right here. You can be part of the feminist movement. Kim Gordon has an album in her separates. She did start a little earlier than me, but you know what, Fender, hear me out. We can do some sort of perimenopause gummies and guitar package. The return of me.

I was a Fender. I've only ever played Fender and I was sponsored by them. We could start a band together. available for the perimenopause special marketing project. I have sort of a personal question. Okay. For people that don't know, and again, you're going to read this book because it's great, but you come from two parents. You said they were countercultural, but they were also both writers and artists, and your father was this big personality, you know, activists, like really interesting

people. But you didn't have a stable home life. They were not really together when you were growing up by just one year, I guess, right? You lived in some caravanning situations with your mother. You called your father by his first name and hung out with him at the bar. All amazing. But I was, I'm just, I'm so not like this. Like the self-possession that you seem to have at such a young age to be like,

I don't want to be in home. That seems too much for me. Or like, I'm not going to do those drugs. Me, it was like, do you want to do drugs? Yes. Whatever. It was like, whatever everyone else was. I was just kind of like down to clans.

not even because I wanted to, but more because I didn't know myself well enough to know I didn't want to. I guess the question is, this is a long way of asking, how did you develop that given that you, it's not that you came maybe from so much stability? Well, I definitely credit. So I am someone, which you can tell my book, I reflect constantly. One of the things I've always reflected on is innate versus nurture. What are you born with? and what is your environment doing?

So I believe very much so that you're born with a certain... Are you temperament? Temperament, exactly. You come to this earth with a... My daughter goes to Waldorf school, and they basically, they can read, even in a kindergarten child, a temperament. Totally. Are you sanguine?

And I'm definitely a melancholic, reflective, and I always have been... And I've been sort of daydreaming into the, you know, infinity universe for as long as I can remember about what is the meaning. of life. So I've just always been like that. So I think the combination of what you, what you come into this world with, and then I fully credit my parents, talk about self-possession. My parents, I mean, they just, they knew who they were from some, they did not, they broke away from where they came from, you know, son of immigrants, daughter of like super suburban American milk toast. Like, they went like charging far.

and wide away from what they came from. So for me, it is a combination of however I came into this, which I think is more of a stargazing, tripping out person. And then they were these like super... They modeled for you. They modeled just, I was in awe of both my parents for as long as I can remember of how clear it was that they were going to work for themselves.

They were going to be freelancers. They were going to do only things that they believed in and work their asses off to. make the outside world what they wanted to be, fight for, you know, civil rights or for, they were just so clearly who they were. So for me, the modeling of my parents who just like new and it's also, I credit a lot. They're maybe even healthy neglect raising of me, which was really like, you tell us, Melissa, what do you want? Like, I, I like photography. Oh, borrow my camera. I like music. Please buy me a bass. And they,

I didn't come from money. I came from that, but they would listen when I had an inkling of who I am, and they empowered me to believe that my instincts were right, but mainly I saw that their instincts made them happy and fulfilled. They, like, thrived as people. They weren't, like, sitting around depressed smoking pot watching TV. No, it doesn't sound like it. I'm really into the theory that your soul, like, chooses your parents based on, like, the growth

that it wants to experience in this lifestyle. What did I suggest in the book? And at one point my mother thought that seemed pretentious. I was like, I don't know. I'm just telling you what I feel. Before I even read it, that's like a belief that I hold. I feel that that's everyone's thing, you know. And so like as much as we have to work through certain things, core wounding or whatever, that's the arc of your life.

And it's believing in the reason you're here and having like a bigger than you, bigger than this lifetime. belief system that you dropped down at this time for a reason and that these are the lessons you are meant to learn and I mean I was a one-night stand my mother hates that I start the book with that she's like well we were together a couple of times playing out three times like just she was a promiscuous wild independent woman who wanted to have a daughter alone who only had sex with bachelors so that she could be a single mother that was her plan knowing what you want, you know. Yeah, that was pretty radical in the 70s. So, and I'm proud of that. Like, I'm proud of her that she knew to do that. That's, you know, but so that's how chance my arrival was.

You know, I'm not a product of, like, people who got married and had sex hundreds of times and, like, fell in love. Like, no, I would just came for that one moment for these two radical weirdos to have me. So, yeah. Do you feel that you were able to distill, like, your core wound, by the end of writing this book. Oh my God. I talk about therapy times 10,000 years. I am the most light and healed because of this process. I think there's still a big journey up ahead right now that the book is out. And I think the healing will take on a new, but phase one of mega healing has happened with me alone in this manuscript for the last few years. So much of the the difficult things in this book that I unpacked for myself and for anyone who's ever dealt

with addiction or death. It's a real Alon vibe. Yes. Yes. But I, yes, I couldn't recommend it enough to anyone, even if you don't publish it, just write your memoir. If you've got crap to deal with, write it. It's, yeah, it is like self-therapy or self-soothing, I guess.

You wrote something in the book that I was like really like kind of held on to because I thought it was so interesting that you noticed that while you were playing, I think you were maybe still playing Basin Hole, I'm not sure, but that you felt that this was like being in a loveless relationship, making art for hire basically. Even though you loved it for like a multitude of other reasons, you realized that you needed to be creative yourself on the side to have a balance. Yeah.

Yeah, like the equivalent of intimacy with sex, of like just sex without intimacy, or love without sex. Yes, it was like a lacking, yeah, yeah, I had to. And again, that's probably where I'm unpacking this base player perspective in the shadow of the big front people more than most memoirs go into. Because, yeah, it's a very kind of like, that's a very subtle. I'm glad you picked up on it because when I was writing,

that was part of my reflection of like why I felt so alone. in that band and why I felt so and why when I left the band Courtney accused me of like withholding my talent when I publish in the book the letter to her reaction to my departure of the band and it's a brilliant writer

yeah incredible incredible I'm happy that she gets to have her own words in my book you know she gets to say but when I reread that letter and her accusing that I didn't give all of myself to the band it actually kind of stimulating these kinds of reflections of did I withhold? I wonder just oh well yes actually because I didn't

feel safe and I didn't feel seen and I didn't feel all of these things so I was able to in the book you know go that deep into this and I was like I mean I was you know now everybody's like trauma bonding new age you know Instagram therapy I have been living that in my mind since the day I was born you know, it's kind of cool that everybody is now reflecting on that. Sure. Or not, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Or they could tote it down a bit.

It's like what you, not everyone's a narcissist. That's not possible. Maybe you're the narcissist. Exactly. If everyone in your life is a narcissist. But in the 90s, people were not thinking like that. I was kind of like the only one in the band like, is this going to hurt people's feelings?

Is this, you know, why are they trying to kill themselves? This is like a very complicated situation to be in. So, yeah, I feel like maybe now is my time. like people maybe relate to this kind of processing. The world was very black and white back then. And people were much less compassionate for troubled, difficult people like a Courtney, but also much less sensitive to a sensitive person like me who was just trying to like take care of herself.

That's all I was trying to do is protect myself from a big, bad world, even though, of course, I'm the lucky one. We don't have bombs over her heads. I had roof over my head and all that. But within like going out on the road in a giant rock band alone at 22 is not like a safe space. Right. Maybe that's what we traded. Maybe we traded the analog beauty stuff for people being more therapist and more accepting of addiction.

I wonder if that was sort of like the Faustian bargain that had to be made. I believe that yes. In fact, it is a spiritual growth that is happening while the earthly world gets worse. I definitely see that in my like long game, thousand year vision of what's happening, this destruction that is happening to our planet Earth with the fossil fuel addiction and then the mining of our souls

through the algorithm addictions. There's really bad, non-sustainable things happening there, but I do ultimately believe in the spirit of existence and I think that there is progress happening on other planes, which is more of an awareness of what is life beyond here. Right. That's, like, exciting. And organized religion have had some bad raps lately.

So we're not going to, like, go running to the church. It's really funny to say that. But that's all. I always do say that because I just, I talk about God on here a lot. And some people really don't like that. Yeah, yeah. And I'm always like, I know bad reputation, God. But, like, let's just separate that out of, you know, the contacts.

And shout out to the clergy members who listen to bands play. I love you guys. Oh. I mean, the higher power, there is and there better be belief in it. I believe in it. It's a matter of, I talk a lot on the book about how I found my own way to the higher power of self, of beyond self, of the universe. And that my parents who were really like anti-religion, understandably, because they were from another generation that were good. And they were progressive people who wanted to live in like the power of political action here and now, intellectual.

but I was lacking, I was starving, which is how I fell in love with music. I was starving for a spiritual outlet. All songs are about God, as I always say. So bad rap, God, because it is a higher universal power that is there that I'm very clear about in the book that I followed and listened to. And it is potentially where we could all go a little deeper

now while we watch total criminals take over the earthly plane. Do illegal wars. Yeah. Yeah, it's cool. Yeah, it is cool. It's really cool. Yeah, there's actually, I'm not going to say what it is because I want you to read the book. There's an incredible exchange between you and Dave Navarro in the book, kind of about this, that like pretty much distills down the difference between addicts and non-addicts, and it's so good. And you're the first person who's brought up that chapter, Dance with Death in my, of all. I've done about 80 interviews in the last six weeks. You're the first person. Like I was like, wait. And it's like, I don't know if it's like an L.A. addict thing. But you picked up on it. Like that that was just like a perfect distillation of exactly like you don't need any more information. Exactly. Exactly. And I'm very self-aware of him to say it to you like that.

That's why I wanted to honor him. And the book is he taught me something even though I'm not in touch with him. I'm in meaning to say, hi, Dave Navarro, you're in my book. He loves to live Moss, Dave Navarro, famously. Yeah? Yeah. He lived Moss. Yeah.

Interesting. Pretty sure. Yeah. Yeah. Did I miss that? But he taught me something when I was lost in the maze. of all these addicts about it. So we were talking about being seen,

and I was going to be like, oh, is this like the biggest and scariest being seen so far? But then I was like, well, what about when you did your solo albums? Yeah. I think back to what you asked about, like, how to was I so self-assured that I don't want to join whole? Right. I do have some, I guess it's kind of my superpower,

that I'm not too concerned about what people think. Must be good. Must be. I mean, it's not that I don't care. I do. I care about people. It's more that I'm going to have to do what I have to do. And that's how I feel about it. I grant that to other people, too. Courtney's got to do what she's got to do. Everyone's got to do what they've got to do to get in themselves. So I'm not. So, you know, yes, in some ways, horrific. Like, I cannot believe that my first orgasm is in this book. Like, what am I doing? You couldn't pull that information out of me with a gun to my head. I'm so sorry. So I want you to know that I wrote it without ever thinking about that it was going to go out into the outside world. I wrote it because I needed to write it and needed to write it. But you could have edited that out. My husband actually wanted me to.

But I was like, no, this is about women and like this whole fact that the mystery of sex and orgasms isn't even like properly talked about. So there's a lot of things that could have been edited that I didn't. But I ultimately decided to choose my most personal truths to put forward for better. for worse. And it was because I wanted honest, but then it wasn't until I read the audio book that I actually had a shudder of terror of what have I just done. I hadn't even, it's almost like maybe my superpowers, I don't think about it. Until it's too late. Until it's too late. Truly. Like I'm walking on stage and 20,000 people. Oh, 20 years later it occurred to me. That could have been scary. Yeah. I don't think about it. Your story really reminds.

reminds me of a thing I like to call going trawola mode, where you're just like, okay, I guess I'll join hole, fine, you called so many times. And then you're like, no, I'm in whole. Okay. Exactly. I'm in hole. Okay, I'm going to go here. We're going to be amazed. That's fun. That's fun. That's funny. It's definitely the way I do it. And this is the way I've done this. And it wasn't until I walked out of the audio booth that I thought, oh, God, there is going to be some uncomfortable moments that I'm about to walk into. but so far I've been six weeks into this chatty chat and I'm on this book tour and because I can

stand behind that all of this is my my version of the story. Right. There's not much that, you know, I don't want to hurt people and I don't think I do. I did, you know, check in. People trust me, like the main people in the book, you know, that, but I don't know. I'm a diplomatic person so I don't think I'm like. Canadian? So canadian. So, yeah, I But it is bizarre that I

And in fact, my family I only really have like my mother and my half brother And they over the holidays when they, you know, thought like, okay, well, she's really doing this. And they had a conversation that my mother shared like, I guess this is the way Melissa needs to deal with her stuff like in public. I was like, that is weird. But that's back to this like I was so moved by

heroes of the 80s of music and art history heroes. And I benefited so much from other people putting their hearts out there. Robert Smith really unpacked it for all of us, for sure. Seriously. Morris said things that I would never have said publicly as well. Yes, unfortunately. But I, yeah, I just participate in that strange dialogue of put yourself out there publicly and help somebody.

I think it can be really cleansing. Like, I have a weird practice lately. Thanks to it. psychic we want to get into it. Shout out Eric, if you're listening. Where I'm like, I actually, like, need to post more of myself on the internet in, like a really, but in a way that I'm like, I don't care. Because it's like, it was a lifelong practice for me to not care what people think of me. Having a podcast will really help you because people will be like, your voice is so annoying.

And you're like, oh my God, who are you? Why are you knocking out? I don't even, don't listen then. But it's just like a barrage and then you just like go through like the galaxy brain levels. It's a good practice. Yeah. And I wonder if it's the same psychic Eric that I've spoken to. New York-based channeler.

Yes. Oh, hi, Eric. I don't think Eric listens on the podcast. But maybe our guides who are different are circling. Just know I'm doing it. Bips. Yeah. Interesting.

So, but I also, in the realm of the internet, not giving a crap, like I had to start using Instagram. For the book, sure. And I just, I'm like, hello, internet. This is not natural for me, but I want to connect with you. So it's also in that mode, I just go into like, I want to find these people and I want these people to find me. So I will do, I will use this channel. Yeah.

And also like being as my favorite quote, which I haven't said lately, is to be cringes, to be free, you know? Yeah. Like, whatever you feel embarrassed to do is probably your like highest and truest self and you feel vulnerable. That's what cringes. It's vulnerability. It's good.

It's good. And it's like, and it's like a lifelong job. journey into vulnerability. I'm like this morning was crying my ass off. I've not like, it's not about the book. It's just like, oh, this book is helping me identify the other kernel of vulnerability that I'm always going to be dealing with. You know, we can only, it's just, it is a lifelong journey and you better make the most out of it. You've got to maximize. You've got to take risks, put yourself out there, tell people you love them. Got a vulnerability max, babe.

Yes. Seriously. It's the only way to grow. My therapist always says that vulnerability is the currency that you use to buy intimacy, which I think is very on point. But it also even extends to the currents you used to buy intimacy with yourself. Yeah. Interesting.

I haven't heard that line. Because how can you have intimacy with another person if you're not vulnerable to them? Yeah. It's not possible, right? I know. I mean, exactly. But also with yourself. Like if you're going to be with yourself,

you have to be able to not live a version of your. yourself that isn't actually you because you're trying to please some audience. Exactly. Yes, I am currently vulnerable. Hello. How are you? I'm actually dying to know your human design because there's a human design that has to be invited to do stuff.

Do you know which one that is? Interesting. I don't remember. I mean, I've had it done my chart before and I have it somewhere in a screenshot. That is interesting because I don't know that particular has to be invited. But someone who's, I guess, it's a Jewish mythology thing. Knock three times or ask three times.

Well, you didn't mean to become Jewish. You have to ask three times. Right. Well, someone said they noticed in my, I had to be asked three times to join whole. I wonder if you are this human, because I just, I can't remember the one because I'm not that one. I'm like, absolutely not that one. I'm like, hi, I'm here. Right.

But it's one that's like life path is dictated by people and have to invite you, like a vampire. You have to be invited in all the time. Let the right one in that amazing film and that I get interested. because, yes, this is a reoccurring theme. And it's great. The right people seem to come and invite you at the right time. It works out beautifully. Because that's what's cool about the fable fairies tale side of my book is that I never went to try to do any of this.

They found me. And that is also what makes me have the luxury to feel destined. Like, they found me. I didn't ask. They didn't. So maybe. Yeah, you're probably right. Well, who knows?

We'll never know until we Google it later. This book is such a celebration of how, I don't know how to say it without sounding corny, but like, I am a hippie, corny person. Just like how soulful it is, how much import there is to friction. Authenticity or analog things require friction, right? That's part of what makes them, I think, valuable. Like you spoke about it a little bit early on finding music. I'm really obsessed with this idea now that we lack friction in our society. The ease and ridiculous convenience of everything. And it's like a good example that I can't stop bringing up because I don't understand it is that these songs go viral on TikTok and it'll be like a pavement song or whatever. And these 20 year old kids or 18 year old kids will be like, I love harness your hopes. And you'll be like amazing. And then they never listen to one other pavement song in their life.

They don't find a song that they love and it doesn't inspire them to dig deeper. Whereas, like, the minute I heard, I mean, I remember, shout out one more time to my hero, Gina Arnold, who wrote a book called Route 666 on the road to Nirvana. I was obsessed with Nirvana, like as 11-year-olds in 1990, whatever were, bought this book and she had broken down all the, like, bands and movements that led up to allowing Nirvana to break through. And I was, and I was, it's amazing. It's out of print now, but you can get the copies. It's wonderful. And it's from a, I never knew you could be a woman and talk about things, talk about. talk about rock music from a personal lens.

Like she basically made this possible. But she'd write her off the replacement. She wrote about Fugazi. And I would take my little allowance money to the warehouse music and buy those records. Yeah. Because friction. Like I dug.

I wanted to find it. And it meant so much to me. And now I'm just like, so sorry, there is a question in here. My question is, do you feel that we can regain any of what we've lost? Of course. But you have to be conscious and sense. aware of how you are living. And by reading this book and understanding how all these chance wild things happen to me,

the ease of the phone and the connectivity of just through here is not going to get you to that magic carpet ride. Yes, I think that people can make conscious decisions on how to like follow an analog gut and not follow the algorithm. So I think that people just, but obviously the concern is if people are like raised with the dependency on the machine. it's hard to But I think

I believe the analog is so deep, deep, deep within for thousands and thousands of years that yeah you know there and there's a rise of like awareness of it and there's like hopefully some crooks will go to prison

for destroying kids' lives with this but yeah I think that what's funny is I thought you were going to go somewhere else with the friction which is the astrology parallels as I describe, again, because we went into psychic things and I'm not, don't want to alienate

the non-astrology, non-hosty people out there. Every episode of this podcast, like, they're here for the red. What sign are you? I'm a tourist. Oh, cool. Double tourist, actually. Yeah, love. But I'm going to read you this simple line.

I'm a Pisces. Kurt Cobain was a Pisces. Billy Corgan and I share the same birthday. And later I would learn that Pisces represents the end of the law. life cycle, connecting the material world to the afterlife and divine. The sign is symbolized by two fish tied to each other's tail, one swimming upstream and the one other one swimming downstream. This duality would come to define me even more than the narratives and details of my mortal life. I have always been torn between the mortal and ethereal sides of myself. How to live on both sides.

This inner conflict has always defined me, and I was beginning to believe. it defined my generation. That's what I thought you meant by the conflict because it was the before and after the way we lived. That our earthly way of living pre-digital takeover and then the crossover and our generation being the ones who have lived at half and half, we are embodying two ways of living.

And I see that as a very similar thing that I just naturally resonate with is like, how do you try to do both and how do you find the peace between, but that that tension is what made our youth movement exciting and is what makes me both a seeker and a futurist and a past like nostalgia person. Like I have high hopes of where we can go, but I also really love where we were. Yeah. And I rely on that duality to give me good perspective of where we are right now. Yeah. No, I agree. I think. think that, you know, it's all pendulum stuff, you know, like we're gonna, you already see it

happening, like, with the rise in people getting those bricks for their phones and these apps. The light phones and the people. Yeah, exactly. So you can tell people are hungry for freedom from the way they're living. And so I'm interested to see what's going to happen. I'm just, I guess I'm a little sad at like the casualties along the way, but. Tragic. Yeah, but. Not to mentioned the casualties of kids who got drugs on Snapchat that died. Like all, I mean, you know, the combination of tech and this terrible drug thing is like a real deal. It's crazy. Yeah.

It's going to be interesting to see now what also what happens with AI because I have an interesting take on AI that I don't think a lot of people like. But I kind of feel like the train has left the station and it's going to be like if you were in 1994 being like I won't use, I'll just not be using email. I'll see you at the post office. Okay. That's like not, you know, but I think like with everything else, it's a good, I think where we always go wrong is we stick our head in the sand. And it's like actually what you have to do is be rigorous. Like you have to rigorously check in with yourself and what are your motivations? What are you doing?

Are you going to use AI to what end? Like there's that crazy study that they did that people that used AI for five days, these study subjects, had demonstrated. For a creative task specifically, had diminished creativity for months afterwards. It's incredibly damaging in that way. So again, if you're going to use it that way, do whatever you want, right? Social media, just like normal, not even AI, is diminishing people's ability to function. To focus, exactly. Like, brains are being scanned and seeing like.

So it's like be aware, know what you're doing, and be disciplined and with yourself. But I do think it's like opting out is almost not having to self-examine. and it's better always whatever we can self-examine up against something it's better yeah we absolutely function within what the current society is adapt exactly like we're not like being like go be a ludite and live in off the grid or whatever and I support that and I'm sounds cool to be honest yeah would love to grow my own food or whatever and I and I have friends to do that and I'm all for and I like that I like that back to the the tension I like both I want to be adaptable and be able to see the beauty in both sides. And I am also a dual citizen of Canadian and American heritage.

It's always the two fish. Yes, exactly. Melissa Offermar, this was so wonderful. Thank you for coming on the pod and talking about your book and all the cool things that you experience. It was a big honor for me. Yep. I'll be back one day. Come back next week for a new episode of Bansplain. If you liked what you heard today, subscribe for more episodes of Bansplaine. Our guests today were Patrick Sandberg and Melissa Offtermar. This episode was produced by Rob Sunderman and edited by Adrian Bridges with help from Justin Sales. Video production by Jacob Hornet. Executive producers for Bansplaine are Gina Delvac and me, Yossi Salick.

Our gorgeous and catchy theme song was composed and performed by Bethany Costantino and Jennifer Clavin. And graciously recorded by Carlos Delaguerza in Los Angeles, California. Special thanks to our producer emeritus, producer Dylan, aka Dylan Tupper Rupert, and also Sean Fennacy and the Goop Kitchen. Come back every Thursday for a new episode of Bandsplaine on Spotify or World. wherever you listen to podcasts. I would support there being more Dunkins in the Los Angeles region. Do you think there's like a Starbucks, like, lobby? Fatwa.

Yeah, that's like, we won't allow it because we know we'll lose business. Probably.