Bandsplain - Radiohead with Cole Cuchna, Part 1

Episode Date: March 31, 2022

Cole Cuchna, host of Dissect and Key Notes, brings his keyboard to Bandsplain for Part 1 of our deep dive into the history, music theory, and immense, innovative impact Radiohead has had on music at large. Covering their first era, Cole and Yasi take us through the band’s Oxford origins, to how they grappled with and later defied Creep’s one-hit-wonder status, all the way up to their groundbreaking work on OK Computer. Stay tuned next week for Part 2 of Radiohead. Follow Cole Cuchna on Twitter at @dissectpodcast and check out his podcasts Dissect and Key Notes, only on Spotify. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's with this band anyway? I don't get it. Can you please explain? Wait, like, Bansplaine? Hello and welcome to Bandsplaine. I am your host, Yossi Salick. This is a show where I invite an expert guest on to explain a cult band or iconic artist to me and to you. Today's episode is part one of our two-part episode about Radiohead. If you've never heard Radiohead, I will call the karma police to arrest this man.

This is what Radiohead sounds like. My guest today is the one and only, Cole Kuchna, host of the glorious podcast, Dissect. Welcome to the show, Cole. Hey, I see. You know, I was thinking today, Cole, because sometimes I read the mean comments about me on the internet when I'm self-harming. And someone was like, it's just so monotone. and I was like, secretly, they don't know that I'm like so happy about that because in my mind, I sound like a mentally ill clown, like a truly excreaching clown. And then I was like, well, they're about to hear Cole.

Maybe it'll put it into perspective. This is like a titans collide here, monotone Titans collide. Yeah, this is a rise-up monotone community. Tell me Cole and the listeners, why are you the radiohead guy? Why did you want to do Radiohead? Tell me about Radiohead in your life. Give us the spiel. Yeah, I'm not exactly sure I'm the right person. There's so many people that love... There are men on the internet that will thank you for this. Oh, I know. I'm very scared, to be honest, because, yeah, you elected me to do this very big episode. It's a privilege, but it's also very intimidating. But yeah, I don't know. I mean, my obsession, I guess, goes back to, I guess, OK, computer. But as we'll probably talk about, Kid A was what really, really had me falling in love with Radiohead to the point where I was obsessive.

I've been a lifelong musician, so as many musicians are around my age, Radiohead is like the pinnacle of everything you would want to do in a band but can't because you're not as talented as them. They take incredible risks in their music and are very experimental and very musically adept, but it's always accessible. which I think is one of the hardest balances to find in music. And they've been able to do that throughout their career somehow while also simultaneously reinventing themselves essentially with every single record. So I think I've been probably, I would say, more than any other band or artist, Radiohead is inspired. Just how I write music, very inspired by Radiohead,

how I think about music, what I think is possible in music, especially within like the restraints of pop culture. I think they are my favorite band of all time. I think they're objectively one of the best bands of all time. I mean, just to kind of give you an idea where I put them in the echelon of bands, I think they are like our Beatles or as close as you can get in terms of like modern impact legacy, I think will prove out that Radiohead will be a Beatles like, I don't know, representation of now. Cool, why don't you marry them then?

I do have like the biggest crush on Johnny too. Musician crush. I mean, I think you just proved a point that I wanted to make, which is that I think they're in the Venn diagram of Radiohead fans. There's like four who are like, yeah, radio head's good. And then everyone else is like, they are the fucking second coming. The day that, you know, played the chord in Jesus wept, and, you know, this is Radiohead.

Like, I will fucking fight you and your mother if you don't understand. And that is why they're a perfect bands playing band. I love Radiohead, but I don't think I have the same gusto and fervor as you do. Well, I'm also fulfilling, like, the cliche white guy in their 30s. No, I love it. Favorite band is Radiohead, favorite directors, P.T. Anderson. Of course. Favorite authors, Cormick McCarthy.

The bingo card, babe. Bingo! We won. I got a prize. Also, you didn't mention, but probably because you are humble. But Cole is a trained musician. I know you did that later in life, but you studied music and music theory, right? So you're the person that's going to come on here and be like arpeggio and I'm going to be like, go on, babe. What is that? And you're going to actually explain it. Yeah, I think I'm uniquely suited only in that I started playing in bands essentially when I was like 13 and played in bands for like 12 years or something. I was self-taught and then I went to college in my mid-20s to study classical music, which is not unlike Radiohead where they play quote-unquote popular music, rock music, but also are very influenced by Costco music, particularly Johnny Greenwood, Tony Essential. classical music in particular. And so they kind of have that kind of same hybrid style as I guess I came into as a musician. So again, another reason why I identify with them so much. Gorgeous.

Well, I can't wait to go on this journey. All right, Cole. Let's just take it from the fucking top. Usually I'll do this part. But if you know more than me interject, I'll also ask a couple of questions. But Radiohead, a gang of lads. who met at Abingdon School in Oxfordshire, England. Just a gang of lads, gang of pals.

Sounds like they were all kind of nerdy. I couldn't really gauge. Tom York born October 7th, 1968, a Libra. Famously was born, I think, with one eye closed. Had to have like five, I think, major operations on his eyelid before he was even six years old. to wear an eye patch to school. He was, I say this to say he was mercilessly bullied. This is all setting up to put us into Tom York's state of mine.

But he said at the age of eight years old that he knew he would be a rock star. And he decided that when he saw Brian May from Queen on TV. Which I find interesting because, and we'll get into it as we like unravel the radio head thing, there's no real sense to me that Radiohead makes music because they want to be famous. I think they want to be appreciated for sure. And I think they want to be their work to be known and their work to be connecting with people who appreciate it. But they're not rock stars or seem to in any way aspire to that. Would you agree?

Yes and no. Because I know I know that's our understanding of them, especially now, having seen most of their career play out. Right. But you look, I mean, even researching this podcast, you go back to those early videos. And it's like, Tom especially, I feel like he was, he had some rock star in him, whether he wanted to admit it or not. And that was kind of the thing with them, even from day one was like, and we'll get into

this. I won't step on it too much. But like, Crete became this big hit. And it was like, for years, they're trying to essentially just get as far away and remove from that song as possible because it, you know, they felt like sellouts. and they weren't contained to this one song. And so I think there was always that tendency and I think that speaks to like 90s culture a lot

where being a rock star was like, it was not cool to aspire to be one, but it was also very cool to be one. I don't know. It was cool to aspire to be one if you were like Oasis. They clearly wanted to be famous and they had no shame about it. You know, like...

Sure. Okay, I'll agree with you, but I think this is where I get into amateur psychology theory about Tom York. probably in the beginning it was because like I can imagine if you're like, you know, a small bullied kid and you're like, oh, everybody respects Brian May from Queen. You know, like rock stars get respect. Like I'm going to fucking show you. I'm going to be a fucking rock star. And I can kind of see that like that motivation like fueled by revenge fantasy motivation, which I am fucking

here for. And largely I think everybody starts a band to either get girls. or punish somebody else. There's really only two reasons just for men to start a band. There's a lot of truth in that. Especially at that young age. I don't know. I guess you can rewrite your own history.

But I remember being that age and looking at people on stage and being very envious and thinking, I want to be you. As a kid, I don't know if it's anything more complicated than like you look fucking cool and you're on stage

and everyone's watching you. It's like, as a kid, like what else? you want? I still want that now. Still, four years old. Podcast does, yeah. Yeah, hence I hide behind a podcast. So Tom York was in a punk band called TNT with Colin Greenwood, the future bassist of Radiohead. Born June 26, 1969, a Gemini.

When that dissolved, this is one of my favorite parts of the Radiohead lore. Tom asked Colin, he was like, okay, will you be in this new band that I'm going to form with at O'Brien, born April 15th, 1968 in Ares? and Phil Selway, born May 23rd, 1967, another Gemini. Now, it feels like Ed O'Brien was recruited because he was hot. He kind of looked like Morrissey and he was very tall. And I feel like in the 80s, if you're going to start a band and there's a guy at your school that kind of looks like Morrissey, he is fucking hired bit. I mean, and it turned out great for Ed O'Brien, but I'm just saying, like, that really works for him, handsome man.

And I loved this little detail. Phil Solway remembered it in a later interview. review, he said Tom's very first words to him, like in the band room at school, were, can't you play it a bit faster? So, like, from the beginning, the man had a vision. He was going to tell you about it. And then your number one man crush, Johnny Greenwood, born November 5th, 1971, a little bit younger than the rest. He is a Collins younger brother, a Scorpio. He basically had to beg to be in the band, which is kind of interesting because he was like a musical prodigy basically.

He could play any instrument. He was just like this like freak genius basically. But you can you can kind of see he's also the younger brother and they're like fuck off, you know? Right. Didn't he originally play harmonica in the band? Yeah. The band was first, we need to say, was called on a Friday, perhaps in the canon of

world's worst band names that have ever existed because they, I guess, practiced on Friday. Which like, could I just say is as someone who also made any, stupid name in high school, in my high school band that was totally arbitrary and was just like as obvious of on a Friday. So my first band I was ever in was called Red Top Road because there was, we were trying to think of band names and we were on the freeway and then we saw a sign that said Red Top Road. Sure. It's the I Love Lamp School of naming bands. It's either that or you do something clever with your initials. I think those are your two options in high school. Totally. Totally. Red Top Road is funny.

On a Friday, did play their first show at Jericho Tavern, which was apparently the fucking hotspot in Oxford, in 1987. And Johnny was like basically just showed up with his harmonica and sat on the side of the stage waiting for like any opportunity to just play a few bars on the harmons, which is really cute. We should note, because I think it's important, it'll come into play later.

I think a big part of the story of Radiohead, maybe not so much of interest to you, Cole, but I think of interest to me. And definitely, I think important to mention is how they're perceived specifically by the media. And Oxford is a posh, posh place. It's a posh part of the UK. It has two of the big, most fancy schools there, Oxford and Cambridge. There's a lot of money there. Tom York said insisted that they were like firmly middle class, the members of the band. Their school was a private school. But I think like the perception of a band from Oxford was that they were like fancy. And they were very educated because, you know, they went to this private school and we'll talk about it.

But they turned down a record deal to go to college. Which is when I read that, I didn't know that. How insane is that? How impossible is that? I know. It's pretty, it's pretty interesting because like from the beginning you see that this like streak of wanting to make their own decisions, like, kind of at all costs is there, which is really cool. But then sometimes it's not there, and we'll get into around Creep. I think there was like a little confusion that happened around Pablo Honey and Creep, which you can't blame them because they got famous so fast, where there was like, there was probably some decisions they'd like to take back involving hair extensions and stuff,

but we'll get into it. I did task a British reply guy from Twitter to tell me what Oxford was. like a shout out Chris Hidden. He said, I'd say it's predominantly middle to upper middle class. It's like central southern London. So automatically there's a level of wealth there compared to the other generally more northern parts of the country. He mentions the university and he says that brings an influx of wealth and privilege as well. I mean, you've seen it. Cole and we'll get into it. Like they get a lot of flack for being purposely obtuse or like opaque rather and like overcomplicating things.

too intellectual, too serious, overly serious, which I don't think they're overly serious at all. Like, I think they take making music seriously, but I don't think they're like overly serious as people. I don't know them. Yeah, I'm trying to think of any like comedic moments I've seen with them. Most of the comedic moments that come to my head are like very unintentional. I think Tom York jumping into the pool on MTV comes to my... We'll get into that. Yeah, I don't know if that was meant to be funny.

Lighthearted is not the adjective I would use. Okay. It's not the first one that comes to mind about Tom York specifically and radio more generally. Nobody's like My Bloody Valentine LOL is so lighthearted, but no one like really dragged them through the goals for being too serious. Do you know what I mean? Right, right. Protect Radiohead at all costs. Okay.

Okay. So we mentioned this. They got some attention for on a Friday because they had made a demo. I think it was the manic hedgehog demo. Is that right? which was like named after a record store that was in in Oxford. Pretty Dylan says, according to your own doc,

that's true. There's a lot of words on the doc, Dylan, I'm doing my best. There was like other bands that were from Oxford, like ride and slow dive and swerve driver. So like there are other cool bands from there. And I think the men that eventually ended up producing Radiohead's demo

and being their longtime managers, also produced slow dive, Chris Hufford and Bryce Edge, but I'm getting ahead of myself. Okay, so they have a little buzz around Oxford. They are offered a record deal. Island records. Island, that's right, which is really cool because I think Island was, wasn't Island the label that also signed U-2? They were like big fans of U-2. And I mean, if you were in, again, in the 80s, if you were trying to be in a band in England, like, and U-2's label comes to sign you, and you're like, I want to go to college. Incredible. It's unfathomable. I don't understand how anyone in high school,

one person, let alone all five of them, agreeing to turn down a very significant record label like that. I don't know. I couldn't find anything about the reasons why. I don't know if you found anything, but it's baffling. All I saw was that they just like didn't want to not go to college. And they were like, well, we're going to go to college. I didn't. I think it really came up in interview. So if this is incorrect, Tom York, bang my line. But, like, I don't, you know, it sounds right. Let's say yes.

So one, just one tiny footnote. I think, I mean, they would basically come home from college. They don't call it college. They're from uni. They would come home from uni on the weekends and practice. They were like, so they were very serious about their band. So Tom York in 1991 performed in this like experimental sound performance called Flickernold. which was composed by John Matthews and Simon Shackleton,

who put on this thing called the Exeter Contemporary Music Festival. Did you know this? I did not know that, actually. Just know he was dabbling in experimental music way back then. That's called foreshadowing, babe. Yeah. So in 1991, they moved back because they all graduate, except for Johnny, who I think just ends up dropping out

because he's younger than them. They are seen at Jericho Tavern again. The fucking Roxy, the sunset strip of Oxford. And Chris Hufford, who I mentioned earlier, owned a studio called Courtyard Studios. And he and his partner, who had been in this band, who was actually signed to a major called Aerial Effects. They produced Radiohead's demo because they had seen the play, and they ended up managing them.

And Colin, shout out Colin, was working on a record store called Our Price. And he gave that demo to Keith Wazencroft. Shout out the Waws. I hope people called them that. If they didn't, that's a missed opportunity. Who was like a sales rep for EMI, which is why he was coming into the record store,

but he was just moving to be an ANR. And so he got that tape and he was like, oh, I love them. But I thought this was interesting. I don't know if you saw this in your personal research call. And once again, thank you for doing your own personal research. something happened. Like, there was just a buzz around them automatically because once, like, I guess, EMI came to see them play at their next Jericho Tavern show.

There's one place in Oxford, but every other, like, major label was also there, like, waiting to be like, let's do this. But apparently Keith the Waz, he had convinced his boss Nick Gatfield. Fun fact, the former saxophone player of Dexie's Midnight Runners. Come on, I mean. And they made a really good offer. And also Parlophone, which is the subsidiary that they ended up being on, that was the Beatles label, right?

And they owned Abbey Road. Right. Yes. Okay. So Parlophone signed the Beatles in 1962, and they owned Abby Road. And they were also the label of Pink Floyd, which Pink Floyd comes up a bunch later. Radiohead did not actually like Pink Floyd, but Tom York said in a later interview that he loved that Pink Floyd was allowed to do whatever the fuck they wanted, which is true. And he ascribed that to Parlophone supporting them. So they were like down to sign with Parlophone. Parlophone's a funny word, isn't it? It is. It just sounds like an old-timey fax machine or something. The fact that Radiohead had played eight shows, I presume all at Jericho's Tavern and got a major label record deal, to me is for so insane. It is looking back, but kind of being in that world a little bit around that time,

a little bit later than Radiohead, but being in bands, it's kind of a common scenario. I mean, obviously all this takes place in L.A. in the States, but I remember just even in my high school band, it was like that was always, always the goal was like, we need to get to a point where we can go to L.A. and showcase, like these showcase shows that would happen. And I feel like, especially back then if you got the attention of one, it was such a small circle that it was just, then you had the attention of everyone. Right, because they didn't want to miss out.

Yeah, exactly. And this was also the era, at least what I remember of like, I mean, it was obviously difficult to get a record deal, but I don't think it was anything like today. The difficulty, I remember,

I mean, even like three or four of the bands that I came up with, just here in Sacramento, where I live, like got signed, major labels and nothing ever really came of it like they did but it was just like the labels wanted to get claim you know they just wanted to be signing as many people as possible totally essentially low risk i don't think they're obligated to fulfill the full contract they end up signing but also you know

they have them if they are successful for that that amount of album so you know when radio head gets signed it's a six album recording deal which kind of is crazy now i'm not sure they are that long at the these days. Totally. Yeah. It's just such a, I mean, we talk about it ad nauseum on the show, but it's like remembering that like the mid-80s to the mid-90s or mid-to-late 90s was like the most fruitful period for the music industry and they were rich as fuck. So like they had plenty of money to go sign whoever the fuck from Jericho's Tavern. And it doesn't even matter if like nothing happens with it because who cares? We have so much money. And for every five Jericho's Tavern bands, one of them is going to be radio. I didn't make you super rich. It's just a

members game, yeah. What if five bands from Jericho's Tavern did get signed? Wouldn't that be amazing? I want to go to Jericho's Jabber. I wonder if it's still there. They did change their name. Thankfully, yeah. Spoiler alert, they changed their name. I think they were beseeched by many people. Please do not have this as your name. And they chose Radiohead, which is the Talking Head song off the fantastic album, True Stories, produced by Brian Eno, foreshadowing. Because Talking Heads were a major inspiration for them, along with the Smiths, Aram, and the Pixies.

And then also, and I'm sure Cole, you saw this, Tom York was like radicalized basically by Elvis Costello and the attractions, the one album, Blood and Chocolate. Okay, have you ever listened to that album? Are you an Elvis Costello guy? Not really. Very interesting for my armchair psychology. It's a great album.

Elvis Costello is a goddamn genius. But that album in particular is like the most vengeful album because it was like a post-divorce album. And it's just like the vitriol in these songs about a person and just like it's really good. And it's like the vocals are kind of very crazy and upfront. The fact that Tom York was so inspired by an album of punishment. Just saying. I'm just saying. And I think I saw that.

He really loved Hatful of Hollow, which is a goddamn all-time Smith. I don't know if they put all that many albums, but that one, just banger after banger. William, it was really nothing, but so many good songs. This is the last thing I'm going to read here. This is from a later article, but someone said this in an article. I can't remember who I'm so sorry. It was a, oh, Stephen Dalton in Uncut. Radiohead don't look like rock stars.

More like Edwardian grave robbers, pre-Raphaelite, Loddenham addicts. Dickensian consumptives or World War I flying aces. He's not wrong. It is a strange lot. Yeah. Especially the assembly of them is, I mean, you have like Tom, obviously, he looks a little weird. Johnny looks like an alien.

Same with his brother Colin. And then you have like, you know, Phil's like middle-aged. Phil's just a normal bloke. Just a normal bloke at the pub. Jericho's Tavern. He's sitting there. Hello. He came for the football match.

His shirt's always tucked. in. Yeah. And then Ed O'Brien's hot and tall. Edd O'Brien's like six foot five and Tom York is five, seven. It's such a weird assembly of people. Like there's no, all their promo photos just look so awkward and strange always. To this day, it's just, it's just such a strange assortment of people. Yeah. It's real British, I must say. Also, I'm just going to say, Tom York got the fucking raw end of this deal because if he and his band I mean if he and his band had come out 10 years later

probably they wouldn't be rich and successful because of many reasons including the fall of the music industry but if they had come out 10 years later he would have been considered extremely hot because he has that perfect like emo boy like I'd love to save you

rescue you vibe he's hot He really got fucked, I have to say. Producer Dylan says, Cole is like, why am I here? Why did I appreciate this podcast? This podcast covers all the territory, including aesthetics.

No, I love it. And hotness. It's actually mostly about hotness and then 10% about arpeggios. Okay. So I thought it was cool. I mean, again, this is like to back up what you were saying

about like how different the music industry was done. Also probably particularly in the UK and England, because it's so small. And also they're so, they're so, at that time, especially, so big on rock music. You know, that was like the bread and butter of fucking music in England. They were so into it.

There was 18,000 music magazines in like one square mile. The melody maker in 92 wrote them up. Like even before they had put, I think, anything out in February of 1992 because they didn't even put out their first EP until May of 1992. I'm just saying. The streets was watching. Well, we don't have to talk much about drill, the EP, only to say that there's four songs on it.

Three of them ended up on Pablo Honey. The only one that's not is that song, Stupid Car. And two of the songs were on the original demo. Did you listen to the OG on a Friday demo? I didn't. It's interesting. It really jumps all over the place. There's some like real U2 core.

And then like, you know, it's just like listening to that. And then coming back to what radiohead became, you really see, like, wow, like, this is like, there was always something good there. Like, there's, like, a song called Fragile Friend that's pretty good. And then everybody knows, which I feel is a very YouTube song. But wow, like, the amount that they, like, grew in such a short time is really crazy. Yeah, I think I'll definitely have a lot of thoughts on the public honey specifically about that. Because when you do return to the early work, it's.

in my mind there's not a lot of like seeds there to predict whatsoever what became of them. Interesting. Interesting. Like for me there's not much differentiation between early radiohead and kind of what was generally going on at the time. Aside from like Tom's voice, which obviously is always kind of the standout, just the quality of the voice and obviously kind of a natural gift for melody. Yeah, totally. In terms of musically, like you look back and it's definitely not clear the amount of talent that was in the band, especially knowing what happened, you know, in subsequent years. And again, it's like there wasn't, there wasn't much differentiation between them and everyone else.

Let's just for the goddamn record make it clear that I am a Pablo Honey apologist. Are you? I love Pablo Honey. Yeah, we'll talk about it. Okay. We'll get into it. Real quick, I just have to mention. because Creep came out as a single

before the album came out, before the Creep single comes out, Radiohead does go on tour supporting Kingmaker. They went on before a juggler. That's all, just an intervention. It's kind of like when I was doing stand-up comedy, we don't need to talk about it,

and I had to do a show with both a man who did comedy with a guitar and then also a man who did comedy with a puppet. And that's when I was like, I can't do this anymore. Okay, so Creep comes out as a single, in September of 1992. It is produced by Paul Coldery and Sean Slade,

two motherfucking kings, if you don't know, from Boston. They were the founders of the iconic studio of Fort Apache. They produced the Pixies, which again, we said radio has a big fan, Dinosaur Jr., fucking Buffalo Tom, babe. Shout out Buffalo Tom. There's five songs on here.

Shall we just, let's get it out of the way. Let's fucking hear creep. And by get it out of the way, I mean, bring it on. I've listened to it 100 times in this podcast. week in prepping, and I'm still not tired of it. I've probably heard it two million times in my life. It's a great song. It's a great song. I don't care what anyone says. Tom York, I don't care what you say, babe. It is a great song. This is creep. You are listening to a music and talk episode where full songs and talk segments live together in gorgeous harmony only on Spotify.

Guess what? You can also create your own music and talk show for free with English. Anchor, Spotify's podcasting platform. Get started at anchor.fm slash music and talk. That's anchor.com slash music and talk. That was creep. Goddam gorgeous, beautiful fucking song. That's right. Your skin makes me cry. That's what I aspire to in my skincare routine. Cole, besides this man's fucking angelic heavenly voice, is there something about the construction of this song or anything that you think makes it so good or makes it so earwormy or makes it so like just stuck in your head compelling? Yes, definitely. So I think of all the songs on Pablo Honey creep ironically because they came to despise the song so much. I think foreshadows what would

become radiohead the most. I don't want to give them too much credit on the core progression because I'm sure as you read, they kind of lifted it from the Holly song. The air that I breathe. Yeah, yeah. Which is like a direct rip-off. To be fair to him, he wrote it like 1987, I think. So he was like still young and they kind of had this song just kind of lying around and it kind of spontaneously came up in between sessions in the studio,

which is also ironic because it ends up like becoming obviously their biggest hit and they can never outlive it. Yeah. But like specifically the chord progression, to me is super interesting. I'm going to really try to like keep this as quick as possible because I can go on like these huge music theory challenge. But essentially it's in this like in a key G major. There's only four chords, a four chord progression that repeats literally the entire song. So there's like it just repeats over and over and over.

But within the four chords, two of them are what are called borrowed chords, which are chords that are not in the key signature. that they're in. So I can even just play them right now. So it starts with G major, which is like the home chord, we call it the tonic chord, which is like the chord of resolution. If you're in G major,

nine times out of 10, your G major is going to be the first chord that you hear in the song. The second chord is a B major. It's a borrowed chord. So it doesn't technically belong in the key signature. And it leads us to where we wanted to go is E minor. But instead they play C major.

So it's a little like, kind of clever. And then the last chord is a C minor. And it's another borrowed chord. So what's cool about this and what I find super fascinating is that when Tom says, I don't belong here, he's singing over this minor four chord. So he's saying, I don't belong over a chord that doesn't belong. And then when he says the actual word belong,

he hits a note that doesn't belong in the key signature. So he's singing. note that doesn't belong. That note right there is where he sings belong and it's a B flat doesn't belong in the key signature over a chord that also doesn't belong in the key signature. So this is what we call text painting. That's the kind of stuff I think is really cool. Okay, I have two questions. Number one, were any of those, the secret chord that David played in it, please do. Actually, hallelujah does use the same borrowed minor four chord. For the fifth, the minor fall.

Oh, so that, we figured it out. That's the chord. It's actually the secret court. You guys, we've done some fucking investigative journalism on this podcast. Okay, my second question is, do you think that was on purpose? The sending the message through the chord that doesn't belong here while saying, I don't belong here. This is, okay, so this is like a very interesting musical philosophical conversation. Because one, we don't know.

No. If I were to guess, probably not. I would say it's probably more intuitive than anything. Yeah, that's just God, babe. And my question is like, does it matter? Like, it's there. It fits. Doesn't matter. And then with someone like Radiohead especially, who has shown that they actually actively think about maybe not this and maybe not this early. But in subsequent albums, you know, they're doing all sorts of Easterer cool stuff. Totally. So it's like with someone like Radiohead, I might give them more of the benefit of the doubt than other. where it might be just intuitive or accidental. But this is like this to me is like the magic of music, these kind of moments.

And it's like maybe you can't point specifically to like, oh, that's why the song's popular. But I don't know, there's a there's, you know, something indescribable and transcendent about a song like, creep. Totally.

It's lasted this long. It's aged beautifully. As much as they might hate it, which maybe has changed over the years, it's stood the test of time. And to me, like these small details all kind of add up. to like, why is this song good?

Why does what he's saying resonate so accurately and emotionally with us? It's like, to me, like these kind of things don't fully explain it, but they help to explain like the mystery of like a song like this. Totally. That's very cool. There's a couple of things that I think not just rescue this song from just being like melodramatic fucking slush, you know, that that I just learned right now. And classically, you know, as a.

story goes, Johnny did not like the song. They did not like this. Even from the beginning, I think they were just trying to play the song because they were kind of stuck in the studio and they had this song, which they called their Scott Walker song, which is kind of funny because Scott Walker does make sort of, not as catchy, but similar music. And they were just trying to like, kind of like, you know, I can loosen up or whatever. And they played the song and Johnny hated it. And so he tried to ruin it with that fucking iconic, you know, the beginning, which is like absolutely makes the song.

Right. And as well as famously pointed out by scholars of our time, Beavis and Butthead. Better start rocking or I'll really give them something to cry about. Shut up, buddy. It gets cool. Check it up. Check it up. Here it come.

Yeah. Yes. Rock. How it goes from this, like, beautiful thing into like, greg, grong, you know, like the, like, heavy crunchiness of the guitars that come in. it fucking slays. And it adds this like, I don't know, because it's both plaintive and menacing, you know? Like it's not delivered straight. And I think that's the thing that makes it so compelling, you know? It's also perfect. Like what a way to introduce these, you know,

assembly of creeps. Like you just look at them. And it's like, you know, the first thing, the first thing we hear out of Tom's mouth is I'm a creep and you like look at his face and, you know, it's a little creepy. Sure. So, I don't know, it's just like a very fitting introduction to Radiohead. Totally. Aesthetically. I do agree, like, the chorus is so big.

It's executed so well. And it's like the mileage they get out of that core progression too is like pretty amazing because the song has like a lot of dynamic range, way more dynamic range than anything else on Pablo Honey, which is my main complaint about that album, is that it's just one note, like one dynamic the entire time. where creep kind of goes a lot of places in a short amount of time. What I thought was really interesting was like the piano that comes in and only at the end was an accident. Like they forgot to mix in the piano until the very end.

And so it just remained. And also, we didn't even mention creep was recorded in one take on the first take. Like what? Insane. And then famously, Sean Slade walked out of the studio and was like, too bad their best songs a cover because he literally misunderstood and thought it was a Scott Walker song and thought that they couldn't release it. Like think about like Bill Simmons on his podcast, I'm going to steal from it. He always asked like what if, like the greatest what ifs of history. Like to me,

this is like one of the biggest what if moments of music history. What if they didn't randomly show their producers this song? Where is radio head now? You know, it's like a sliding doors I love sliding. Shout out, Kenneth Boulter, a gorgeous movie. No, totally. Because I think a lot of what Radiohead has accomplished has been the result of absolutely

of course their artistry and desire and drive and motivation, but also the immense goodwill that they built up from one having a huge hit song, which they had to make Pablo Honey in three weeks or something. Right. Which to your point

is probably why it's not known as one of their best albums. And they were like kids and they were just like, you know, they were in their early 20s. Yeah. Whereas they got like a much longer period to make the bends and then longer and longer. You know, they had more and more leeway and freedom

as they went on. But, you know, on the flip side of that, and I think Tom York talks a lot about this about why he hates creep. It's partially probably because the song is kind of reductive of like what kind of artists they are. And also like it is as, you know, juxtaposed with later Radiohead lyrically extremely sincere.

Right. Which isn't a thing that sticks around too much further than the bends. Yeah. But, you know, you make a fucking hit song that big. Often it ruins your career because we're going to talk about it endlessly. You can't escape the shadow of it. You've basically promised people this. And if you don't make that again, they're mad.

But if you make that again, they don't probably want it because they already had one. You know, like. Yeah. All the kind of cards were there for them to be a one-hit wonder. Like, it's all there. I think nine times out of ten, that's what happens in this scenario,

is that pressure mounts, expectations, dealing with fame at a young, you know, relatively young age and very fast. And also not being proud of the work. Right. That they're putting forward.

That's just such a cocktail. It's hard enough to keep a band together like a year, let alone many years. So I think, yeah, again, it's like another what-if moment because more often than not, you know, a band like Radiohead with this first album, this first hit just kind of deteriorates, never lives up to the first rise and kind of just fades over time. And we remember him as, oh, that one band that had that one song. Like how many bands, you know, how many bands are there like that from this era? There's a ton of them.

We're not, we won't show shadow toadies. I have a counter argument. I think that putting out creep in the time that it was put out earned them the legion of devoted teenage fans, right? Who then were willing to give the Ben's time. Because the Ben's does not strike you the way Creep does, right? It takes a little more work. And if you didn't have the investment of the creep people, it might have come and gone. even though it's a fucking brilliant record, you know?

And I think that's really important. Yes, the creep people, myself included, and all the insoles who love Radiohead. Shout out the Encel community. Before we move on from creep and get into Pablo Honey, to your point about the air that I breathe, which is actually originally written by Albert Hammond, father of Albert Hammond Jr. from the Strokes and Mike Hazelwood,

they did receive co-writing credits on it. And they, I guess they were very nice about it. They said that Radiohead was very honest. about having reused the composition, and so they agreed to take only a little piece of the money, and they noticed it right away. Ed O'Brien pointed it out, which, I mean, shout out to him for being like, that sounds like the air that I breathe.

Something crazy, I mean, we jumped ahead to this being the biggest song ever. This was not the biggest song ever at first. Like, in the UK, fucking tanked, babe. Didn't even hit the top 75. BBC Radio 1 was like, this song is too depressing, would not play it, which is kind of crazy. In 1992, though, this is right, before Tom York started, I think, to hate the song because it wasn't big yet,

but he said to an ME, that song will always be there. And in five, six, ten years time, people will be saying that creep is a fucking classic record. We know that. So I'm just saying the lady doth protest too much, because I think he knew it was a fucking banger from day one. He just didn't like what it did to him. I think we have a sort of manic, um, pathological, I mean, almost to the point of extreme unhealthiness, really, of thinking everything

we do is shit all the time. It's very Tom York to like, whatever the scenario, he's going to push back. So if like creep doesn't blow up, then he's pissed. And then when it does blow up, he's pissed. Who can really? It's very Tom York. Shout out of my king. Shout out my own thing. Q Magazine called them as imageless as a police identity parade. In American English, that's like a police lineup. I thought that was funny. That's amazing. Yeah, that is a big thing about Radiohead.

Although now looking back, I thought they looked fucking cool. Yeah, they do. Yeah. It aged way better than I remember. Yeah, but I think everything in the 90s looks cool. It's my God-given right to say that. So they don't, again, nothing's really happening. Here's what fucking happened, guys.

Are you ready to strap it? Toward the end of 1992, an Israeli DJ named DJ Yolv Cutner played creep a bunch on Israeli radio, particularly an Israeli army radio station called, I think, Ghalai Tazal. He had been introduced to the song by an EMI rep. It became a huge hit in Israel, huge, massive.

The first show radio had ever played outside of England was in Israel, which they were treated like the fucking Rolling Stones. Suddenly you found out that you're very famous and very popular in the Middle East in Israel? Yeah, that was weird. Maybe we've tapped a nerve or something,

I don't know, but we'll just go anywhere we want, anywhere that people want us really. Then they had to come back and play the Jericho Chauvern. Then, in America, now we're in America. Berkeley, California, in fact, there's a record store called Mod Lang. There is an employee named

Aaron Axelson. He brings the Live 105 DJ Steve Masters. Live 105, K-I-T-S, San Francisco, Oakland, San Jose, Steve Masters with the new music challenge. Import copies of the new radio head single creep.

And that guy is like, you know what? I like this song. Starts playing it. That would be important-ish. No shade to Live 105. But because of this, I'm just presuming that alt radio stations pay attention to each other.

One K-R-O-Q-FM rock of the 90s does start programming it quite soon after this. And then it's over for these hosebib. They get an American radio deal. K-R-Rocs are it is they're massive. It gets in the MTV buzz bin. It's over. Huge. Yeah, it was like unavoidable, right? I mean, we remember it for a reason. It's like ingrained in when you think 90s is just, it's in the tier of like smells like teen spirit to me. I don't know if that's blasphemous for some.

No, I think that's totally true. It's one of the most, I think, iconic songs of the 90s, especially the early 90s. I mean, it's perfect. It encapsulates so much. of what I remember of that era. Even what I was feeling at the time, too, I mean, I was like a skater kid. You were feeling that you didn't belong here. Much like Radiohead coming from like middle class, I was like also middle class suburb kid,

also a skater that, you know, wanted to be an outcast more than he was an outcast, if that makes sense. Well, I was ugly, Cole. So I 1,000% related to this song, me scream singing in my house. I'm a weirder. Gorgeous.

So Pablo Honey comes out finally. There's some crazy press that Radiohead do around this time. We won't talk about it. We'll just say that Tom York did have hair extensions. He was a bleach blonde. He did do an iceberg jeans ad in which he is a model. Yeah. I'll send it to you.

You can find it on the internet. There's a show review just right before we get to Pablo Hutting coming out. There's a show review in NME in December of 19. by one Keith Cameron, where he says, were I an A&R type, I'd say something terminally crass, like sack the band, give the singer a publishing deal. As things stand, however, Radiohead are a pitiful lily-livered excuse for a rock and roll group. I wonder if he stands by this. If he was the A&R and he had dumped them. Yeah, I don't know. If I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. No, but you're right. I mean, based on the body of work of public, I mean, I kind of understand.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's easy to look back and say, oh, you're wrong. but also if you think about Pablo Honey, at least in the way I do, I can see maybe someone, I wouldn't be as harsh as that, but I can see one maybe thinking in those terms. Let's get into Pablo Honey. I love Pablo Honey.

You do, okay. I'm really interested to hear why. It's not Rocket Science why I love Pablo Honey. Pablo Honey is a gin blossom's album. It just is. It's eight-tenths of this album could be gin. It's like it really answers the question.

what if the gin blossoms were British, you know? And for me, I've asked that question and to have the answer delivered in Pablo Honey, Gourge's. A couple of things about Pablo Honey before I play another song. The album name came from a jerky boys bit. So for those of you calling them humorless and not lighthearted. Right. Come on. They loved fucking the jerky boys.

There's also, I think, one of the sketches. It's like hidden on one of the songs, right? Yeah. It's in How Do You, the third song. Yeah. Tom said something interesting much later in an interview that I wanted to read to you. He said, when people rip each other off but don't add anything original with the equation, it's painful because you can hear the anxiety of the creator wanting to be loved. I'm not going to say any names, but you know what I'm on about. That desire to be loved rather than fuck you, this is all I got.

And the interviewer goes, where you like that when radio head began? And he goes, that's how everybody starts out. Everybody goes to that period of imitating other things because you're worried. you want to be liked. Everybody does it. It's just how soon you realize that it's not very pleasant to listen to and nobody wants to hear it anyway. Wow, that's so spot on. Right. It kind of validates everything I kind of feel about the album. Yeah. And that I kind of touched on before, but it's, you know, there's moments. I'm not going to totally shit on it. You know, there's moments that come through that stand out. But just hearing that actually makes a ton of sense. And it's actually really cool to see him be so transparent about it.

I mean, I'm not going to say they listen to the gin blossoms because the blossoms came out later. Right, right. But yes, it has the general alt music of the early 90s feel, which as you know, I love. The first song, some real U2 style bellowing on there from Tom. I'll take it. It was from the demo. Can I say something about this song?

Because this was my actually favorite about you. Yeah, for you. So this is my favorite part about the album actually in retrospect. And only because it's like a very symbolic kind of thing. but so the opening song is in six eight time which is not like unheard of it's like okay uh it's like the swing one two three four five six one two three four five six like more of a swing dance waltzy type feel okay but every four measures they mysteriously without really a reason why cut one beat off of the fourth measure of every repetition so there's one measure of five eight

Every four bars. So it's like one, two, three, four, five, six, one, two, three, four, five, six, one, two, three, four, five, six. So if you listen and you try to count along or like just even like snap your fingers to the, to the beat, every four measures, you're going to get thrown off. And there's like just a little, it's almost like a little glitch. And there's not, to me, like, a clear reason why, except that they just probably wanted to be different and a little bit cool. And at that point, that's like kind of what they came up with. But again, like this, the symbolism of just that weird addition to what is otherwise a kind of more basic song, to me in my mind, it's like, oh, cool, like that's a seed. That's a seed that's going to, you know, blossom as extravagantly as possible because it's like, yeah, that's the foundation of what they came to be known for, which was very unique, experimental.

Making shit weird. Yeah, yeah. And I think here it's like weird for weird sake. To me, it doesn't function all that. just it kind of makes it kind of off every once in a while. Yeah. But the way that they are able to kind of cultivate that weirdness, I guess, and make it actually functional and make songs way more interesting and unpredictable.

Yeah, it's just a cool symbolic moment. And it being like the first song and the first, within the first 10 seconds, there's this weird music thing happening. I think it's like really cool and very fitting. That's really interesting. And we'll, I think we'll probably get into this more and more. A thing I love about Radiohead is for dumb moron idiots like me, who by the way would never have known what you're talking about in that song,

I can't even hear it, right? Because I don't listen to music that way. Like, I think when they do that stuff, it does make the song more interesting, but without making it unlistenable. Do you know what I mean? I think like there's ways that you can like get weird in a song that other musicians will be like, cool.

And then other people will be like, I don't, I hate this. why did you do this to this song? Whereas like it seems like they do it in ways that never sacrifice. I mean, some people might argue, but I don't think it ever sacrifices the listenability because that's not what they're after, right? They're after just making the song better. Right, yeah.

I think that's why I admire them so much as a musician who knows that has tried writing songs and writing interesting songs. I think one of the hardest things to do in music, especially within kind of the world of what I call popular music, everyday people listen to, like finding the balance between, you know, musically interesting and still accessible,

I think is one of the hardest things to accomplish in music. Totally. They do it so well. And that's another reason why I kind of compare them to like the Beatles a lot in my head just because the Beatles ended up doing that in their own way later in their career. And they kind of came in with their own versions of creep, right? like songs that were fulfilling the sound of that day, very good songs, but also like kind of typical for the era. And then like you alluded to, they use their audience and they kind of

leverage their audience and the attention and the time that their audience are going to be willing to give them to challenge the listener, experiment without totally going overboard. And to me, that's like I'm kind of maybe stepping on later conversations here, but that's why I think radio is so important. Because when you're a very powerful, popular band and you have an audience and then you start doing experimental things that most people haven't heard before. That's what pushes music forward, I think. Totally. It's a really good point. That's why I consider them like on the forefront, all of the Beatles, because what the Beatles did for music at that time, I feel like Radiohead did in their own era and that we'll probably talk about

a lot, like the offshoots of Radiohead where everyone was for a while trying to be Radiohead, but couldn't quite reach their level. It was all yellow. It was all yellow. You know, people were inspired to be them because they did push the genre forward. Totally. Venn diagram of men who love the Beatles and Radiohead. One circle. Solid. A solid, gorgeous circle.

Yes, no? Yes. Since this isn't your fave, I'll pick the song to play off of this, but I'm going to do a quick rundown on the songs. Okay. How do you? This song is very British. I will not explain further. Stop whispering.

A goddamn gorgeous beautiful song. This is the oldest one on there. It was on the demo. thinking about you. Sorry, I fucking love that song. It's gorgeous. It's pretty. I like it.

Anyone can play guitar is very interesting to me because the beginning is totally different than what it becomes, which is a gin-bossom song, which I love. But the beginning is more challenging and kind of harder. Right. And then it gives way to Jinball some song, which I'm like, kind of a cool trick. Ripcord. My note just says, sorry, but I love this song. I like that I'm preemptively apologizing in my own Google Doc for sorry I love this song. I can't is fucking amazing. I love it. But really, to me, the standout track on this album and it's, I'm not, I don't think reinventing new ground here is Lurgy. And I do think Lurgy is kind of an interesting song. Yeah, I think so. Well, for me, the thing that stands out. Let's play it first before you get out your fucking keyboard, babe. Okay.

This is Lurgy. That was Lurgy, a goddamn gorgeous, beautiful song. I take it back. It's not that interesting. But you know what it is? Just stunning. Because the vocal performance is so beautiful. It is, yeah.

And this is what's funny when I actually looked into this song more because you're like, oh, Tom York is saying things like, I feel better. I got strong. And then he realized the song is called Lurgy, which is a illness. A highly infectious disease. And that he's a very infectious disease. he's talking about, he's essentially calling this past lover, I guess, lurgy. And so it's like, even though he's positive, he's still like shitting on someone, which is

very fitting for Tom York. But yeah, I mean. Totally. I feel like it's in conversation with creep, maybe, in a certain way. Right, right, right, right. It's a nice song, I guess. It's not something I would. Okay.

All right. Cool. Okay. Okay. Let's keep it moving then. I think if you listen to Pablo Honey without comparing it to the rest of Radiohead's catalog. You can very much enjoy it. They go on tours, really grueling tours. This is what happens after Pablo Honey. This is a point I want to make throughout, but I'll make it now. It struck

me in researching Radiohead, and I think it hadn't struck me that much before, but the 90s were probably the best and worst time to be in a popular band. Because A, there was so much available to you in terms of success. But B, it was like no one toured like this before. Like advances in technology, globalization, all this stuff allowed now for you tour the whole goddamn world and you do it all year. And you have to because the label makes you because you have to support your album. And also, you know, the 90s, I would argue and I think people would agree with me was the peak of music journalism.

There was six million music magazines and outlets and they all fucking wanted to talk. talk to you and you had to because your label made you. Yeah, it's like, wow, wow, but also that's fucking harrowing. Especially when you're 23 years old, you know, you're from Oxfordshire or whatever and all of a sudden you're like, you know, in a bus every day and people are screaming at you and saying you are ugly and look weird, which happens in a lot of the magazines, which is insane. Right. Yeah. And I mean, it's obviously like pre-internet, right? So the only way to get your name around was to actually travel and get your name around because, you know, now it's kind of like the inverse. You get your name on the internet and then you and then you're allowed

to tour. Exactly. Exactly. And I also think Atali's back into what we said before, which was like, these bands were cash cows and they were overworked and exactly. Yeah, how many times can you answer the same shitty question from the same type of journalist in the next city every day? Like, it's like Groundhogs Day and there's obviously worse things that you could be doing. But I mean, we've all traveled. We know how exhausting just traveling alone is, let us. alone performing and then talking to people. Yeah. One thing I always think about just with artists in general,

and especially someone like Tom York, who's not your typical, like, frontman. Yeah. It's like, you get into music because you like playing music and you express yourself most accurately through music, then all of a sudden people are wanting to hear what you actually have to say. They want to hear you talk, which is so different than, like, expressing yourself through music.

I think that really challenges a lot of, people where, especially when you're young and maybe don't have that much to say, and everyone's starting to look at you and like this kind of like as an idol or an icon. And that's just a weird psychological flip where you see, I mean, it's like not surprising so many, you know, huge pop stars or famous people go crazy because like the psychology of people looking at you as if what you say. Oh yeah. Fame is an illness. It's a disease. And most people can't recover from it. And I think what was interesting returning to this information was just how fast they got jaded. You know, usually I think there's like a honeymoon period in the beginning where it's like,

oh my God, we're a big band. Like our dreams are come true and you kind of put up with some of the challenges because you've just fulfilled what I assume is a lifelong dream. But just how instant it seemed like their kind of turmoil with this dynamic of fame, touring, expectations. plays a big part after, you know, the creep and Popple Honey and, you know, just the weight of the pressure so early, I think it kind of changes the course of their entire career, right? Like, again, it's like the what if moment. If there was no creep, like, do we get the reaction album, the bends, right? Like, it seemed like a lot of what they ended up doing with their first albums was a reaction to what happened in the past, right? Like, even to the point where, like,

my iron lung is about creep. It's like it gets meta really quickly. It's really meta. Totally. And it's like, I don't know. It's just, it's interesting. It was interesting to see how quickly the shift occurred. Yeah. I mean, I honestly think it goes back to my original point where I think it was a be careful what you wish for a moment. I think like ultimately they didn't want to be famous. And ultimately they're a band of merry introverts. Right. Who hid in the music room for all of high school or whatever. and like they also don't party, which like, if anyone who's been on tour, this is also why so many musicians become addicts. Like a lot of people dissociate through partying. And they didn't do that. I mean, they drank. But like, they didn't do drugs. Like they were like, and you know, I'll say another

sort of controversial opinion. I think they were too smart. I do really. I mean, I do. I think they were like too smart and too introverted to deal with like the dumb shit day in and day out. And also, we'll get into it later and I think it becomes very clear like as much as like Tom moved more and more away from being very like how do I say this? Like extremely open and honest in his lyrics and got more opaque.

He was never dishonest. And like I think as a band, Radiohead's kind of allergic to fakeness. And there's so much fake bullshit that you have to deal with when like people are kissing your ass. The label saying this. The like you said, the dumb fucking questions that don't even have an answer.

Like oh, are you excited to like Yeah, yes, I'm fucking excited. You know what? Yeah, I think them being smart, I think is a really good point. Because, yeah, they understood the charade and they understood that they were just like a chess piece being moved around where they didn't have much autonomy where they were just like kind of puppets moving from city to city giving journalists content. You know, they were just providing so much for everyone while like quote unquote getting their name out there or whatever. And it's like, yeah, at some point it's like you're going to get the bends. You're going to get a reaction to all that shit.

Yeah. So I thought it was cool. Their grueling tours were supporting PJ Harvey and Belly, women. Yeah, that's right. Cool. And they cancel. There was a play Reading and they canceled it. First Reading appearance, they canceled it because Tom was unwell.

Yeah. He was like, I can't do this. Which is, again, kind of a crazy thing for a band to do in their first fucking time playing writing because it's a big deal to play Reading. I just want to read a couple of the reviews of Pablo Honey before we go on to the best. Vox gave it a five, I believe, out of ten. Oh, Keith Cameron, he's back. He didn't like them. Ultimately, Pablo Honey founders on a misconceived desire to be something rather more than the sum of its parts.

Okay. The LA Times says, this English quintet's debut doesn't really deliver anything you haven't heard before, steering too close to a Smith-like melodies and trying ever so hard to be depressed in the way the cure popularest. Occasionally, though, it does offer clever lyrics and good hooks. And then Melody Maker said, Radiohead aren't the new Swade. But if Swade are the new Smiths and if we must play these games,

this is the music press. So I suppose we must. I'd hesitantly put Radiohead down as the new jam. I only wanted to read this to say like, again, it was a whole different world, the British music press. Swade was such a huge band. Swade did not make one fucking blip

of an impact in America. Do you remember hearing a Swade song in the 90s? If I'm being totally honest, I thought you were talking about Swade the material. Okay, well, now I found and Swade is a great band, but like they were massive in the UK

and like nobody fucking cared about them in America. But they were constantly, Radiohead versus Swade was like a big, a big thing. They love to do that there. Oasis versus Blur. It's the gym in the UK. Right, right, yeah.

Also, sorry, so quickly before we go on. I sent this to you, but Radiohead does play the MTV Beach House. Iconic. You've got an open invite to crash at our place. Stay tuned for details. Plug into MTV's summer and feel the burn. Whoever was like programming that shit was like, you know it would be amazing.

If during the MTV Beach House where everyone's in bikinis and dancing with like, you know, floaties and pool balls, we have radio head come and sing the world's most depressing song. Wouldn't that be really cool? And they do come and do that. I think everyone can play guitar, which by the way, I didn't even mention, I feel it's like a personal affront to me who has been trying to learn guitar for several years now. And it's hard. Actually, everyone can't play guitar. It's quite hard. At the end of the MTV Beach House performance, Tom York does jump in the pool like you mentioned earlier and he does nearly drown. Oh, really? Allegedly because his Doc Martin's filled with water and were too high. And he had to be pulled out.

He definitely jumped in without an end game because I was like, it looks cool the moment you jump in. But how do you get out of a pool like in a cool way? I mean, I guess you pray that the video camera is not on you. But if you watch it, if you watch it, it kind of goes away and then it comes back and he's kind of just like dog paddling around. It's like and then it cuts away again and then you see him and he's just on the side of the pool standing there talking to this like 12 year old kid. And then, yeah, the rest of the band's like on stage still rocking out. It's, it's perfectly weird and I love it. I love it so much.

It's like a visual, if you want a visual like explanation of the dynamics of Radiohead and pop culture, just watch that video. Hop on over to YouTube and pull that shit up. Okay. So we get to 1995. 1995, we're still in the early to mid-90s of music. So, you know, it's like Alanus Morissette. Smashing Pumpkins has put out melancholy and infinite sadness.

Allison Chain's self-title has come out. Bush, 16 Stone. I'm bringing these up to talk about, like, what alt radio sounded like around this time. Garbage. PJ Harvey put out to bring you my love that year, a great fucking album. Pulps, different class. So the Benz comes out in March 1999. They chose producer John Lecky.

Are you a big magazine guy? Not really. So they chose him because of his work with the band magazine, specifically for the album Real Life, which is a great fucking album. But he had also. work with the Stone Roses, an XTC in the fall. The fall also always think of them as an interesting

comparison point to Radiohead in some ways. I won't elaborate further. That's it, period. Go ahead and imagine what I'm thinking. But most importantly, Nigel Godrich is the other producer in this album. He had done mixing and engineering before this for Susie Sue

and Ride and Big Country. And he was the in-house engineer at Rack Studios, where they recorded The Bends. Tell me about the Bends. Well, yeah, I mean, when we're thinking about the trajectory of their career, I think the leap from Pablo Honey to the Bens is extraordinary. Totally.

I know that's not breaking new ground. It's like evident from the moment you press play, just the sound quality alone, actually having some dynamic range on most of the songs. But I think what I found most interesting, just kind of returning to it and contextualizing it was, it just was so much a reaction to Pablo Honey, even down to the title where it's like they're titling, you know, the bends is this term for decompression sickness. And Tom saying like,

we just came up too fast and like famous too fast, babe. I'm unwell. I'm sick. Right. And I think like if we're looking at positives that might have came out of the Pablo Honey experience and especially the tour is like they were kind of a band for a while, but they left for university. So I don't know how much they're actually practicing and developing during those years. We said they played eight shows before they got signed. So it's not like they were like, you know, a seasoned live performing band. Right. And I think the experience on tour playing every night, I think went a long way.

Play creep like that. Right. Play creep again. I mean, just in terms of like just getting reps in. Totally. You know, putting in the 10,000 hours. I think a lot of that, the polish of the bends is probably due to that. But yeah, I mean, other than that, it's really hard.

to like pinpoint exactly why from pablo honey to the bends then to okay computer is just like I mean we are talking leaps and bounds of musical evolution in a you know just a few years um so I think you know first thoughts on the bends is is just that leap it's just it's an extraordinary kind of unexplainable leap I think the Nigel Godrich aspect is another kind of what if moment because obviously he becomes like the quote unquote six member of radiohead a la george martin with the beetles where it's like yeah i don't know obviously i think radio head would be going on to do big things regardless but i think Nigel being there along the way is super critical to the point where they tried to produce i think in rainbows without him and then

came back to him because it was just like it's the dynamics not quite there so i think that's kind of my first my first thoughts on the bends totally i think one thing which we kind of mentioned earlier, but they were given nine weeks to finish this album, as opposed to like the two and a half they had for Pablo Honey. I think that added a lot because they had some time. And I think it took even more than nine weeks. I think the album almost got shelved. They did not go into making this album like, good vibes. Going to this album, it was like, but I'll even make the argument. I mean, no one likes this, but I think radio had music benefits greatly from Tom York's misery. And I think the misery that accumulated over the tour cycle of two years of Pablo Honey gave us the bends in many ways, you know?

Plus the time to like release that out and work with, you know, we haven't mentioned it, but Radiohead is like maybe the most democratic band I've ever heard of. Like they all have to agree on everything. Everything is credited to the whole band. They split the royalties equally, which is insane to me. One of the best ways I think to get a band to stay together though. Right. Right. Right. Over time. Yeah. They clearly have the utmost respect for each other.

I mean, from what I can tell, the dynamic is like Tom is the songwriter. Johnny is the genius. Although Johnny writes some songs too. And everyone else like brings something to each song to the table. Like works on it. It brings apart, whatever. But that's like the vibe. Tom York also said that they very quickly banned all the A&Rs and management from the studio

because they would just come in and be a. annoying and be like, where's the hits? And they were like, you can't come in here anymore. And they pulled out the phones and they kind of got rid of that anxiety and like had a lot of more choice. Yeah, I thought it was interesting that, yeah, particularly early on in the sessions, there was so much pressure that's obviously not great, but also them, apparently reworking so many of the songs, not thinking it's good enough, trying different arrangements of particular songs, which in my ears is a total kind of shift from Pablo Honey

where it feels like everyone's like a lot of the time they're just playing the same guitar parts you know all three of them are playing the exact same guitar parts right three guitars yeah exactly all playing the same chords

so I think the pressure while obviously awful and probably very anxiety inducing probably helped because I don't know if they rework some of these songs to the point that they ended up doing without that pressure, but then also making it a very definitive kind of effort to, you know,

midway through or whatever it was to say, okay, no, actually we're just going to do what we want to do, which was, of course, the right decision. Totally. I think also they were having a lot of problems, I think, getting the songs to work and stuff in the studio. And they end up leaving the studio to go on tour and play the songs live and work them out that way. And then they came back and finish the album in like two weeks. Yeah. Which I think is a thing that they started doing a lot later.

It's like it sounds like Radiohead often needs to work out songs while playing them together live. Right. Which is very interesting. Kind of goes back to the Pablo thing. Like right? Like not being so experienced

and then kind of finding their pocket together on tour in real time. I think maybe that informs some of that. I feel like at this point, everyone started to kind of solidify the roles that you just laid out. I think was very accurate kind of prognosis of their roles. Because, yeah, like, for me, like, one of the biggest things, aside from, like, Tom York,

I think really improving as a songwriter is, like, this album to me is Johnny's moment. Like, you really start to feel his voice. And to me, so much of Radiohead is Johnny's voice through the music, obviously. But, you know, we're getting, like, very unusual core progressions at this point. He's starting to get into his, like, weird, modal, like, harmonies. and riffs and guitar solos and a lot of the stuff that sound like if you don't like have musical training you said like that sounds like radiohead like there's reasons for that there's technical reasons for that I think a lot of that has to do with Johnny's impression and him like you know really honing

his guitar sound to like where we can hear a song like Just and be like that's Johnny like he became one of those guitarists on this album where it's like you hear the guitar and you know that's Johnny Greenwood. He became one of those guitarists. And so I think musically, that's one big thing that jumps out. I would say another thing is dynamic range. They really worked that out. I think Ed said something to the point of like, we realize that you know, if the song sounded great with just Tom, we're not going to try to like just add stuff to add stuff. Right. So it's,

there's a lot of like air and breath on this album where again, Pavel Honey was like just, they're just strumming distorted guitars and there's not really much differentiation between the roles where now it's like, yeah, I think they establish the roles that become the roles for the rest of their career. And so I feel like, yeah, this is like, this is kind of their, I don't know, coming of age album, I guess, so to speak, where they really kind of find themselves individually and as a collective. I mean, well put him. Why don't we hear Just and then you can explain to us a bit about how. we hear that and just.

Sure. This is just. That was just, God damn, gorgeous, beautiful song. Oh, my God, it is amazing. So good. I'm glad we played this song because this is Johnny's song. Like, he wrote the chord progression for this song. Apparently, I didn't know this.

It came out of a competition that him and Tom had about who can use the most amount of chords in a song. Fucking nerds. I know. But obviously Johnny wins that battle. Every time. There's a total of 15 chords in the song, which is insane. There's too much to go into.

But one thing I do want... I sound the piano, ma'am. I do want to nerd out. I'm busting out right now is, okay, so that iconic ascending guitar riff in the beginning. So why that sounds so unique and like identifiable is that he's using a scale. So usually scales are like, you'll recognize this. Yeah, do remi, fosol, lat, de. I know. I know that's not.

So, like, half the songs you hear are in that major scale, the other half are going to, in a minor scale. So nine times out of ten, even maybe more than that, like, songs are going to use those scales pretty much, like, exclusively. Okay. So what Johnny is doing here, and the chords are fucking wild and don't make sense and are perfect. But the scale specifically that he's using for that ascending guitar part is what's called an octatonic scale. There's this French composer, Olivier Messian, that Johnny was obsessed with. It really informs, like, Kid A, some of, okay, computer,

but like, Kid A is when Johnny really starts to get into his Olivier Messian bag, which is a French 20th century composer. And he developed these, what are called, modes of limited transposition. And essentially, they're just these kind of weird, nerdy scales. And so this scale, the tonic scale sounds like this, like, just kind of weird. Okay, okay. So essentially all he's doing is go,

using this scale, but just kind of spacing out the notes. So he used like the whole scale and that's why there's 15 chords? It doesn't really so much have to do with this the chords more than just the guitar riff. So like it's just

so you just use up and up and up the same scale. But I point that out just to kind of showcase what he does a lot which is using these really like established but like very unconventional music, I guess, tools that you would learn in, like, college or studying classical composition, specifically 20th century music, which was kind of very experimental,

atonal stuff. And it works. That's the important part, right? It's like, it's one thing to, like, nerd out and be like, I'm going to use Olivia Mession mode of limited transportation in a song. And it's like, just sounds, you know, weird and doesn't work, especially not in a pop song. But to have it in a song like just that you don't need a musical explanation. to know it's good. It's just a fucking good song. But then, you know, to have these little kind of very unique characteristics and be able to point to them and say that sounds like Radiohead,

like that's where I feel like the Ben's is like a very good representation of like radiohead finding themselves because this is where we can point to them and they have a very unique sound that kind of carries with them throughout their entire career. And we can point to a song like Just and say, oh, it starts here. Like, very definitively starts here. That's actually really interesting, I must say, even though my feeble brain can only understand part of it.

I want to play the game where I play a song also. But I want to play fake plastic trees. Is that allowed? Oh my God. This song is so good. It's so good. It's so good. Clueless.

Shout out Clueless movie. The model music of the university station. Wow, wow, wow. What is it about? College and private music. Oh my God, yeah. I was raised on Clueless. Me too.

I told producer Dylan that I am the sad college granola stepbrother in the movie because he's remember he's listening to it in the car and she's like, ugh, I can't stand your college rock. It's so depressing. Is that Paul Rudd's character? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay.

I always identified with the skater stoner guy. Oh, sure. Love him. Breckenmeyer is his real name. I can't remember his name in the movie. Yeah. He draws Marvin the Marshall. or she draws Marvin and the Martian.

Can't remember. They both row Marvin of the Martian. Anyways, this is fake plastic trees. That was fake plastic trees. I fucking love the goddamn gorgeous, beautiful song. Yeah. It makes me cry every time or makes me want to cry at least. It's so good.

Okay, so I just like kind of like laid out what I think, you know, just is kind of like this coming of age moment for Johnny. You can point to this song as Tom's, maybe in a way, or at least make a case for it. One thing I read I didn't know, like Tom, he saw Jeff Buckley. Yes, that night he saw Jeff Buckley play. And then was inspired to use falsetto. And then I went back to Pablo Honey.

I was like, oh, Tom York came to be known for his falsetto voice. Right. But you realize he's not actually using it in Pablo Honey. That alone, I feel like, is so huge. Literally, what a fucking cunt that he can just, he can sing in any place in the rain. Like, his voice is incredible, which we'll get to later when he sings in like 17 different ways. Like he's in the different way

on every song because he just can and he wants it to be interesting. I hate him. It's not fair. It's like finding a new instrument. Yeah, it's like picking up a new color or something. Like it's such a transformative little nugget, I think, of him getting inspired enough

to use his falsetto voice and maybe being comfortable enough to use it on a song and record it. I think that allows, at least in my mind, like, yeah, it is a new instrument. It allows the song. to go in much more dynamic places. I think fake plastic trees for me, why I look at it is like a very pivotal song as well.

It's like an Odyssey. You don't think about it in those turns because it's such an intimate song, but people just heard, like from start to finish, like it's a huge emotional and musical arc. It starts very soft and then the chorus somehow gets even softer.

And then each subsequent verse is louder and louder. Yeah, you saw me. Whereas my arms wants to do surgery. Exactly. Yeah. And so you get these grand moments in what is essentially a very intimate ballad. They didn't have that talent with Pablo Honey. Right.

They didn't really understand how to develop a song in this way. And I think a lot of that speaks to what Ed said about, you know, if the song sounded good with Tom alone, why are we going to add anything? And so there's there's an intimacy to fake plastic trees that there is not a song anywhere near this level on Pablo Honey in terms of intimacy, dynamic arc, musical arc. Interesting that you wouldn't say that. I find fake plastic trees to be very much an extension of creep. Okay, yeah, I was going to say, that's the only song you can point to, I think.

Because it's very much the Pixies thing, right? We haven't talked about it yet. But the Pixies change music also, and they don't get enough credit. But this loud, quiet, loud thing, this was Pixie's signature thing. And many bands heard it and we're like, we want to do that. That's fucking cool, namely Nirvana. But very much obviously hear radio. head, you know? Like that loud, quiet, loud thing, they did that obviously to lesser

interesting extent probably in creep. But it's kind of happening here too. It's just more interesting. It's cooler. No, I agree. Yeah. That's a musical term cooler. No, I totally agree. And I think, you know, it's one thing to like want to do something and it's another thing to like actually be able to do it. Right. Like we can all listen to the pixies and say, oh, I want to do that. But how many people can. Right. And so like them finding the ability to do that, I think, was huge for them. And in their own way. Right.

That doesn't sound like a pixel song at all. You know, that sounds very much like a radio head song. But it's cool that they took, where they took that to. God damn. The ending, the fucking, yeah. If I could be who you wanted. And the strings. Oh my God.

That part, especially the come down after the climax of the bridge. And he's just kind of like whispering in his falsetto voice. And it's just like, so it sounds sincere, which I just don't really associate sincerity with Tom. And I guess that sounds like a negative thing. But that's interesting. You don't. That sounds like one of the things that I connect the most with Radio Hadon is that I feel that Tom means it whenever he's singing. Maybe I need to rephrase that.

It's not a lack of sincerity. It's a, it's a vulnerability, I would say. There you go. That's the right word. Yes, yes, yes. I mean, after the best. bends. You don't, you get, you get vulnerability, but not quite in the same very transparent way as a fake classic trees where everything becomes more cryptic and you can feel it, but it's not so

clear. Yeah, I totally agree. I think you still definitely have it. Like, I think vulnerability is like a hallmark of radio head, but I totally agree with you. Like, this is just like cut and dry. Here it is vulnerability. Whereas later, like, it's just a feeling. Like, it's just something what you're like, oh, I can feel your inks. I can feel your panic and feel your yearning. But what you're saying is yesterday, I woke up sucking a lemon. Yeah. It's like, yeah, it's like modern art, you know, quote unquote modern art versus classical art type of thing, right?

Where it's like you're going to abstract expressionist. You're going to get, you know, paint thrown on the canvas in a very expressive way that's going to emote something in you that you can't quite describe. I feel like that's where radio it ends up. But here it's like more classical painting where it's very, very much. very much easily understood on first listen. I fucking love it. I mean, are we as a society allowed to play one more song off of the Ben before we move on? I'll talk about it a little more before we play one more song.

But I find this to be the first in a series of two fuck you albums. Okay, Computer, obviously being a fuck you album. But these are the fuck you capitalism, fuck you fame. fuck you fake-fak-ness albums. Fake plastic trees being a very literal example, the bends, like we talked about. Although the bends, oddly, was written before they finished Pablo Honey, so they didn't actually know that that was going to happen, but Tom said it was prophetic. And one note I would say I read, which I didn't know, Tom cites fake plastic tree, specifically that lyric as him finding his voice as a writer. I think is like very telling, right?

Because it's exactly what we just talked about. Fake plastic trees, like what is that kind of abstract, we also understand what he means. It's like... Also, do you have to say fake if they're plastic? It is really funny to me, but that's a stylistic thing, right? Right, right, right. It's like overkill. It's kind of interesting.

Right, right, right. It's embodying the same principle as the thing he's talking about. Right. And also sounds good, probably. I know that the words sound good within the song, but there was apparently a version of fake plastic trees that Ed O'Brien said sounded like November rain. And I'm dying to hear it. He said it was bad.

This album called... I mean, creep started it, but this album really cemented the press being like, why are you such a miserable fuck? You know what I mean? It was just like, that was the thing with like, why are you? And Tom York, it's interesting because maybe because of that quality of his voice that really makes you feel like he means it and that vulnerability, he can't get away from people being like, this is you.

And that happens a lot with a lot of artists and we want it to be them. But he said this to Melodymaker in 1995. He was like, it's not my fucking day to day. It's not my life. These lyrics aren't self-fulfilling. The Ben's isn't my confessional. And I don't want it used as an aid to stupidity and fuckwittery. He was talking about a lot of suicides were apparently linked to the Benz.

Ludgely, I don't know how letters were sent, stuff like that. Right. And he was like, it's not an excuse to wallow. I don't want to know about your depression. If you write to me, I'll write back angrily telling you not to give in to all that shit. Shut up. fuck off and go buy the Smith's back catalog instead. Gorgeous.

Gorgiosso. I love that in interviews, he did not care about what he was going to say. It seemed they made him very uncomfortable. We've had a year. We've pretty burnt out. Actually, the fuses are going. So we're ready to do the next one.

You're ready to do the next one? Yes, this is sort of the end of the stint. Yeah. So if we can't tell me to say, it's because we're burnt out. Yeah, I get it. But it is such a, especially, the bends compared to just what you laid out or that quote. Yeah.

Because I'm trying to think about my mom, like, listening to like fake plastic trees and then hearing that quote. It's such a contrast of like what you feel in fake plastic trees and what his attitude was outside of his art, essentially. Yeah, there was that great, there's in the documentary, making friends is easy. A tour documentary, basically. But there's a part where they show like a British television. It looks like a morning show news presenter like playing.

I can't remember with high and dryer fake plastic trees. And afterwards, they're like, oh, yeah, that's depressed. I don't, would not want to listen to the. Who wants to listen to that? That is so very depressing. It's really funny. Right. It reminds me of actually like Bob Dylan in the mid-60s when he became like the poster

boy for like protest music and then really want to know part of it. And like that informed his stylistic choice to get way more abstract. I feel a parallel between because Dylan, especially during that, era was very onry in the same way I feel like that York was in that they wrote these songs that kind of transcended even the song itself they became these symbols for the culture and it's like not every artist wants that pressure they don't you know they just are expressing what they feel not

necessarily well then don't write such beautiful music it's the yeah it's the prison but I don't know I just feel like especially preluding to okay computer I feel like some of that oneriness some of that not wanting to be an idol informs his decision to get a little bit more abstract. Yeah, I mean, this is a little reductive, but I'll stand by it.

I think the central tension of Tom York, which producer Dylan has said is a central tension of every artist. But again, I really think it's pronounced here is, please love me. Don't look at me. Do not perceive me, fuck you. You know?

Like, it's very just like the push and pull between that. I would love if you're so amenable that we could hear Street Spirit fade out before I move on because that is a fucking stunning song. I would love to hear Street Spirit. It's one of my favorite songs on the Ben's and we'll talk about it after

but it's so haunting. It's so haunting. It's so good. It has a real weird music video too. We haven't even started talking about the music videos but this one's real weird. Okay, this is Street Spirit parentheses fade out.

That was Street Spirit Fade Out. Do not think I know, goddamn gorgeous, beautiful song, stamp of approval. Do you not feel this is in its way foreshadowing some of KDAYA? It is to me. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Right?

Yeah. I mean, there's a minimal quality that I think a lot of KDA has just like in terms of stripped down instrumentation. And it's kind of dancy. It's like I do a little sad dance when I hear it. Do you know what I? Yeah, yeah. It's so dark. It's such a dark song.

I feel like so is Idiotac. You know? Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, okay, but in verse three, I have to really intentionally try to listen to the radio head lyrics that always get so lost in just melody and music. But he says, cracked eggs, dead birds, scream as they fight for life. I can feel death. See its beady eyes.

All these things into position. All these things will one day swallow. All these things into position. He's an incredible lyricist. It's so dark. But then, okay, this is what I didn't realize what he said at the end. And what he essentially ends the album on is, he says, immerse your soul and love.

Yeah. Which is like such a beautiful way to end, but also that's not the sentiment I really feel at the end of that song. Right. I mean, it's there. Tomarke has said this and all the other members of radio have said this. And I really, I think I get it. What they're saying is that they actually don't think the music is that dark. Like, they actually think that it has hope baked into it and has like a good message baked into it.

There's a really telling, really beautiful part of meeting people as easy that documentary, which is, have you watched it, cool? I used to own it. I haven't watched it in years. It's kind of like an art fuck project, essentially, but I thought it was very, for my purposes, really interesting because it did really show the, like, they really drive home the headspace of being on tour and being pummeled with all that. stuff. But there's just one part where Tom is talking in a taxi. And he's like, I'm paraphrasing, but like, it's like, I know what it feels like to have an album makes so much sense to you,

and imprints on your heart. And like, that's so important for you. And so like, he's talking about playing shows for his fans or whatever. And he's like, I've been that person. And he like, he talks about the Smith's hatful of Apollo and an R.E.M. album. And he's like, that's why we do this. Like, we do this because we can do that for someone else the way. it was done for us. It being imprinted on your heart, you know, it's like every note of it. So I think every time I meet someone who's like that age, it comes to one of our shows, it's a big deal for me.

Because I can I remember how much of what big deal it was? You know, I never met at the time. But I know how much of a big deal it is because I haven't since. And I really do think I give myself the chills just there, babe, just so you know. And just like that to me is like the little like egg of what Radiohead thinks about how they're giving hope. It's like they're providing connection, right? Right. And people do feel seen by these songs.

I felt seen by these songs. And I don't know. I just think that makes sense to me. And the people be like, well, it's too sad. It's like, well, some people are fucking sad, bitch. Right. Yeah, yeah. And like sometimes the best like anecdote to the sadness or even isolation or alienation is to know that you aren't alone.

So when you see or hear someone like Tom York who is ascended to this place of stardom, also feeling this way, it does capture, even if the music itself is not traditionally uplifting or hopeful sounding. Right. You do connect. There's like a conversation. The audience and the artist are kind of uniting through the music. It's a big tangent for me. But like that's the, that is music. That is why it exists, right?

Like that because there are things that are inexpressible, there are feeling. feelings that we have that are inexpressible that are only, we can keep it to music. I think other arts obviously apply, but it exists for a reason because we aren't able to articulate it with words. I think the sound, the frequencies, the union of all these things. We identify with the abstract feeling of it, which is like so much of what emotion is. It's like words can only express so much. And I feel like that's why we really identify with musicians particularly, because

we point to that and we said, that's how I'm feeling. Right. Like they give us like a new language to sort of like, yeah. I totally agree. The last thing I'll say about street spirit fade out is like I think, again, the lyrics here get really opaque. Yeah. But I feel like the major shift, I obviously can't speak too intelligently to the musical

shift between this and OK computer. But like I think one of the major shifts thematically and I'll say it spiritually is is that like the Benz is largely about the inner self of Tom York. And OK Computer is largely about the world around him. Right. And I think Street Spirit Fade Out is sort of a bridge between those two. Like it is kind of talking about the world and like, you know, there's this line that's like be a world child, form a circle before we all go under.

And this is like a thing that he's brought up a lot where it's like the only thing important in life is connection. And when he gets to OK computer, it's talking about like that disconnection that we are suffering at the hands of technology globalization, blah, blah, blah. So anyways, just want to point that out, a gorgeous last song to lead us in. Don't know if that was intentional. Does it matter? I don't think so. He also said, uh, Street Spirit was like the purest song, or at least, like the pure song you ever wrote up until that point at least, which you can feel that. He says it was inspired by R.M., which is interesting because I don't totally hear it, but I love that because I love R.M. And I think that while they don't have sonic similarities as much, I do think they have a lot of, like, career arc and just like the way they approached music and the industry and stuff, similarities.

Yeah, and Brazil says endurance. No, nobody's put out more albums than RIM. R&M, U2, and Weezer, just neck and neck for the most albums ever. There's a line I must read you, Rolling Stone 1995 5. Tom 26 is so thin and sharp-edged you'd cut yourself if you touched him. He looks like a spiny amphibian who, if kissed by a beautiful maiden, would turn into a hamster. Jesus. What the fuck, bitch?

Some of these, I have a complicated relationship with music journalists. Like, where do they get the audacity to write that about someone? Like, what? It's a person. Yeah, it's crazy. especially because he probably gave you some of his time too. Yeah. Also, again, he was hot and you were wrong.

Okay. Let's talk about the reviews. They start to get pretty good reviews around this time. Like, the Ben doesn't sell as well as Pablo Honey, I don't think. Pablo Honey sold really well off the back of creep. Yeah. Right. But it's better reviewed.

We didn't even mention my iron lung. That's okay. You kind of mentioned it before how it's like it's commenting on creep and how, you Robert Criscow gave it a C, so he didn't love it in the village voice. He said, admired by Brit Crits, who can't tell whether they're pop or rock and their record company, which pushed and shoved this 1995 follow-up until it went gold offspring. They tried to prove Creep wasn't an immortal one-shot by pretending that it wasn't a joke. Not that there's anything deeply phony about Tom York's angst, it's just a social given,

a mindset that comes as naturally to a 90s guy as the skilled guitar noises that frame it. Thus, the words achieved precisely the same pitch of aesthetic necessity as the music, which is none at all. The arrogance of some of these reviews is astounding. I mean, Chris Scott, we love the gene on this show, but sometimes he gets it wrong. I get it. I love the Benz. I think the Benz is an incredible album, especially given what rock music was doing in 1995. I think it was definitely in many ways, like, super interesting. Yeah, that's my, it's my hot take on that. Don't worry. In England, Caitlin Moran for the time said, the Ben's is easily the greatest rock album since Nevermind. Oh, wow. It possibly overshadows, nevermind, is what she said.

Wow. So, you know, don't you worry. People were loving it. It got good reviews many places, but Chris Cow didn't like it. And producer Dylan has pointed out that, as is the classic move, in retrospective, it got a million fantastic reviews. All of a sudden it was the best album that ever came out. Right, right, right. Okay. So in 1990, they tour on the back of this album, opening for REM on the Monster Tour. Here's an important moment. Midway through that tour,

Brian Eno commissions them to contribute to the Help album, which was a charity compilation organized by War Child International, an organization that provided aid to like war-stricken areas like Bosnia. They had to record one song. They only had one day because they were on tour. They recorded Lucky in five hours with Nigel. Did we point out yet that Nigel is, maybe the most British name that's ever existed.

Nigel. Nigel, this was a big deal because they got really inspired by the making of Lucky and they said that Lucky shaped the sound and mood of OK Computer. Like, it sort of set the tone for them. Right.

In 1996, they tore opening for Alainas Morrisa. This will become important later. I just want everyone to know. In 1997, prior to, OK computer coming out. One could argue that Britpop died. RAP Britpop, it was over. Cause of death, we don't know.

People say Euro 96, which is the football tourney that England spectacularly lost badly badly within early rounds. I'm not a football person, soccer for Americans. Some might say it was because be here now by Oasis was actually not that good. The sub might say it was because Blur and Paul put out non sort of Brit pop albums. They kind of grew out of it. Princess Diana died. That might have had something to do with it.

Who knows? Brit pop died. I'm bringing this up to say that Radiohead sort of loitered alongside Britpop and was sometimes lumped in with it erroneously, but they didn't have much to do with it, right? And famously Oasis hated them. Radiohead in particular, they're just miserable. sitting in back of limousines you know to tail off the camera

about how bored it they are being in the group it's like well if you don't fucking enjoy it retire do us all a fucking favour you know and go and live in a fucking mansion in Oxford so we don't have to listen to your miserable fucking bleatings about how shit your life is and I think the feeling was semi-mutual I believe that I read one quote where Tom York

says they write primitive songs in their fashion Noel Gallagher was funnier he said I'm aware that radio I've never had a fucking bad review I reckon if Tom you were fucking shit into a light bulb and started blowing it like an empty beer bottle, it'd probably get nine out of ten fucking mojo. I'm aware of that. Technically, they're better songwriters than I am.

Have other people's songs ever really touched a generation, though? Radiohead? When do people listen to them? Is it when they go out or is it when they come in? Because I'm struggling to think. No, babe, it's people who don't go outside. Come on, what's wrong with you? It's not going out or coming in.

It's those of us who stay inside all the time. Anyways, I thought that was funny. I just wanted to bring that up. And another kind of important thing that I was thinking about a lot during this time is that particularly in the UK and a little bit later in America, the predominant music going alongside Brit Pop was electronic music, right? They had a really strong electronic music, DJ culture, massive attack, Apex Twin, warp records. All that shit was like, kind of like late 80s basically came into the. mix and that was huge there. Which of course informs.

Yes. So much of, I mean, obviously the big jump is kid A, but I think it's obvious that that was starting to creep in with OK computer, where if we're comparing, we're saying Ben's OK computer, Kid A, although I don't know if anyone predicts the huge leap of Kid A and how much, you know, Apex Twin specifically is going to influence an album like that. OK Computer is a very logical bridge between the bends and Kidae. Other sort of important releases in 1997 for me to point out are Prodigy, put out the fat of the land. Chemical Brothers dig your own hole. Chemical Brothers had gotten a big following

after producing the Beastie Boys album, Paul's Boutique, and then working with Beck. Also, Bjork put out homogenic. Which in my mind related. No, yeah, yeah. The parallels, I think, I feel like Bjork's a huge influence on Radiohead and vice versa. I always saw them as parallel figures kind of. Yeah, I always kind of put them, Bjork, them, and PJ Harvey and sort of a similar container, even though I don't know that they followed similar trajectories.

But like, I do think that like their willingness to change sound all the time was very similar. And I know they all kind of really respected each other. Oh, and also, sorry, lastly, StereoLab Dots and Loops. Sterellab important, I think, for the shifting sound of, you know, popularity of sort of electronic e music. The number one records of 1997, though, were like things like No Doubt, Smith's Nine Lives, Spice Girls. Also a cause of death of Rip Pop, probably, Spice Girls. So, OK Computer comes out in May of 1997. Happy Birthday, Yossi, Year 15, here is OK Computer, produced by Nigel Godrich.

and Radiohead. He didn't actually produce the Benz. I didn't really mention this. He was a producer on the Benz, but I think he only produced one song, which was Black Star. Yeah. Yeah, it was one song. I forgot the circumstances under which why there's some unique circumstances where he ended up producing the one song, but yeah, he was an engineer at that point. Yeah, but he gets a production credit obviously because he did that one. Right. But they made lucky with him that song that I just mentioned for the Brianino compilation. Then they hired him to build a building. them a mobile studio. Amazing.

Love this. I also love that they started at this place called the fruit farm, which is a converted Apple store, not the iPhones, babe. Apples, actual apples that you eat. But then they moved on to Jane Seymour's Elizabethan Mansion outside of Bath. Jane Seymour famously, Dr. Quinn, the Medicine Woman, amongst other gorgeous roles, a very famous British actress. The mansion is incredible.

Yeah. I'm sure you saw the photos of it. She did good. Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman paid well. And I love how they didn't just record the album in there. They recorded it like in hallways and they really like utilize the space

in a very unique way that I don't, I'm not sure, okay, computer sounds the way it does without being in this very unique space to record an album. Totally. Yeah. I mean like kind of like in the way that like

I think Albini famously recorded some Pixies stuff. like in stairwells to get the sound of vocals. Like there's like one particular song on here that they recorded, I think. I mean, you must have read this too on like a big, a room that was like a big stone floor. Exit music for. Exit music. Okay.

Yeah. Which makes sense because that sounds so like roomy. Yeah. Did you play this game while you were prepping to? I always play this game where I'm like, what's my favorite album? Oh my God. Yeah. What's my favorite album?

It's hard to even know. to start with this album. And yeah, in terms of favorites, I mean, mine's Kid A only for kind of sentimental reasons, but it's like, take your pick, Jesus. I think mine's OK Computer. We'll revisit, but I think I landed back on OK Computer. I love Kid A too, but like start to finish. Okay, Computer is goddamn gorgeous, beautiful album. Let's just say before we get into it, Tom York said, I think people feel sick when they hear OK Computer. Nausea was part of what we were trying to create. the thematic shift here you mentioned it before where it's i mean i guess the simplest way is you know from interior to exterior right i think there's a quote where he says something like i'm

just recording what i see around right yeah this is like really the shift of like not really talking about relationship stuff talking about alienation still but in a much more i guess more universal way, not specific to like a relationship or just an individual, individual experience, but more like, what is the culture of today doing to us as individuals? And so much of OK computers thematically is addressing exactly that. It's like, what is consumer culture doing to us? What is like proliferation of technology doing to us? What is the globalization doing to us? And it's like, while there might have been kind of political tendencies, seeds of political stuff and like past work, like obviously politics, you could kind of draw the line here.

where Tom is very much more open about, you know, political matters or wars even. And it's also weird because, like, he doesn't explicitly say it, right? Like, it's all very cryptic, but the feeling of it, like, it makes sense that the nausea thing because the feeling of it is a little,

even from the opening guitar riff into like this weird sample drum loop that's, like, kind of off and, like, little just, like, don't quite know, where the pocket is and like I'm talking about airbag the opening song. Right.

There is a kind of like tension throughout that I think yeah was kind of I think part of why this album resonates so much and really is

I think a very timeless record is like a cliche but I do think like there's something about okay computer that it doesn't sound like music in 1997 it's aged so well

because it doesn't sound like music anywhere right? It's like it's singular they nailed it It's like start front to back, you know, easily one of the greatest albums of all time, which is, again, maybe a cliche, but I think in this case, it's like very true to the point where it's, yeah, it's hard to even know where to start with something this good because it almost feels trying to articulate it. It's just like, we're just never going to do it justice.

I know. It's, it's really good. No surprises is like overtly political. I mean, there's a line that says bring down the government, you know. Right. I think you're right. I think the shift from the bends to OK Computer is the problem is with me to the problem is with you. Right. And the you being the world. Right.

Let's hear paranoid Android. What do you think? I think that's probably the, I would argue maybe the centerpiece of the album. Do albums have centerpieces? Yes. Yeah. I'm not arguing with that take. Let's hear it.

Okay. Sorry, strap in, babe. This song's long. This is Paranoid Android. That was Paranoid Android. goddam gorgeous beautiful five songs in one. Yeah, it's a master. I mean, literally three songs stitched together.

Right? Was the concept of it. It doesn't feel like it doesn't feel disjointed or anything. I mean, it kind of does in the sense that they want it to. But like I said it to you off mic when the song was playing like the beginning like one third of the song comes in and it's like good. But then I'm like I'm always waiting for like that second part to come in. where it's like kind of pissed off and it's like, you know, the ambition makes you look pretty ugly, kicking, squealing, Gucci little piggy.

It's like just this like epileptic anger, you know? Right. I think it works because they understood the arc of the song. And like, yeah, the beginning relative to everything else that comes is like there's not much going on. And you're just, it's kind of building and building and building. And it's like this huge cathartic release that you can only get when you build that long and you take the time to feel the pressure, right? and it pays off so well

and like, I don't know how many times you get like that cathartic payoff where you, it builds, builds and it just explodes. There's a really cool thing I have to point out, sorry. Yeah, no, please. About the third part specifically before the kind of crazy outro, there's like a,

you know the dream sequences in old movies where like there's this like a foggy wash that goes over the screen. There's like the like harps. Yes. The harps kind of play and transition. So there's like that moment. into like the rain down section.

Yeah. Or the song just like all of a sudden stops. And then we get this very long. There's like these low choir voices. So Johnny Greenwood writes this part of the song. And he uses this technique called the lament bass. It's like a Baroque music trope. Okay.

So it's classical. If it ain't Baroque, you know, you don't need to fix it. Think Bach. And essentially what a lament bass is, it's just an extended descending bass. So a baseline that goes lower and lower and lower. It's another crazy 14 chord sequence. So this, just this part, this third part alone is 14 chords long.

And it's descending essentially the entire time. And of course, Tom is singing, rain down, rain down, rain down, rain down from a great height. Just like a cool, very cool detail in like a song that has a million details. Like, for instance, around the three minute mark where the Gucci little piggy part comes they switch to 7-8 time all of a sudden, which is a very odd time signature, especially one that you just don't switch to in the middle of the song, but they do when it somehow works.

And it's like a big differentiation if we're trying to look at a kind of overarching progression of the band musically, where the Benz was a huge leap in terms of just quality of songwriting, quality of sound, distinct individual parts, everyone coming to know their roles, more dynamics. I think where OK Computer really makes a leap is,

in song structure. So the bends is mostly traditional song structure, verse chorus, verse chorus, bridge chorus, like, you know, typical pop formula. The things that they do within those individual sections are very interesting, but more or less, they're kind of sticking to like standard song structure. But when you get to OK computer,

I mean, there's so many instances of them veering off this kind of typical song structure. I think Paranoid Android is like the most extreme example of whatever six or seven minute song, three very unique like sweets I kind of call them that are all stitched together in like a very creative way that works

but like it's very hard to do a song like Paranoid and Android I love it because it's popular and like songs like this six minute seven minute epic songs like this don't always get popular and I love that about this song speaks again to the balance of like

pushing limits but staying accessible I think this is a great case of that but just the willingness to even try this, I think is huge. I think Tom said he was inspired partly by a day in the life, not specifically of this song, but just generally of the album by the Beatles, which is like the last song on Sartre Pepper, which stitches together two, three songs and has that big orchestral moment in the middle of it. So I think that's one thing I would say about this album, musically, is like the forms are, I don't know what we might talk about karma police later, but that's a very

interesting form that also parallels the Beatles. But that's, that's one thing that when I'm listening through this album is all the songs are very interesting structurally and I think that's what makes it very singular or contributes to like the singular quality of this where it's like we're still getting the catchy melodies but they're also like positioned in a way that we're not used to hearing and it works and I think that's the most important part is that you can try these things and it can fail but they obviously nailed it. To me like the decision to make paranoid Android the first single of your album like your point being almost seven minutes long and being fucking weird, that's a cool decision.

You could have put Karma Police as the first single. Like if you wanted to like really just like, who cares to be successful? Karma Police is very accessible as a song. But Paranoid Android, a little bit less accessible. But it fucking worked. Also, I have to say about Paranoid Android. It was apparently written by Tom York after an unpleasant night at a Los Angeles bar. I don't know if it was Los Angeles because he called it a pub,

but maybe British people call all bars pubs. He also in an interview in reference to the interviewer asking, him about cocaine. He said, I can't bring myself to take a drug that people get killed for. Besides, the only people I've seen on it are just the dullest fucking people on Earth. That's what we wrote Paranoid Android about. Wow. I didn't know that. He also said in the documentary that it's a funny song, which I kind of, like, I kind of get what he's saying. Like, he's like kind of like mocking people. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And Paranoid Android is definitely a joke. You can't possibly take that song completely seriously unless, of course, you're a critic.

There was also a thing I read that an interviewer asked him about all the pig imagery. And he talked about, he was like, oh, I was dating a woman. And the Gucci little piggy is like... It's such a great line. Talking about like a woman he was dating. Like those lines, ambition makes you pretty ugly, Gucci little piggy. It's like, ooh, drag me to hell. But we know exactly.

We know like I can picture that person in my mind just on that abstract description. No ambition, just fives. But yes. because I like close. Also, just back to the Alainus Morissette tour. They did play a 10-minute version of Paranoid Android

testing it out on the Alanis-Mor-Sat audience. And that just for some reason really sentence me. It's so perfect. Yeah, the idea of the people who came to see Alanus Morset one hand in our pocket,

thank you, India. We love Liannus-Morset, but then are subjected to a 10-minute version of Paranoid Anderet, with like a super long like organ outro like is really if they're like oh we're gonna go get a beer right and we'll be back right and I

saw an Emmy review that called it Bohemian Rhapsody for morbid introverts love it I love it if I'm remembering correctly it was also a stitch together of a few songs scraps

how do you not remember it correctly I see a little son but I'm pretty sure it was like separate songs that came together which was what paranoid android was as well. Oh, yeah. Okay. It sounds like it. Like, just stitched together. Yeah.

Apparently during the writing process or whatever of this song, they had been listening to a bunch of Ennio Morricone and Can. Can you hear that in the songs? Particularly the Morconi. I never know what I say is. You were probably right, Morconi. Okay. He does movie soundtracks, right?

Yeah. Spaghetti Westerns. They're like orchestral. They're very atmospheric. They're very like emotionally driven. As we're talking about where it's like there's abstraction, but we kind of we understand the feeling. And it's also very cinematic.

I feel like this album is a very cinematic album. There's images and descriptions of things like a girl, Gucci Little Piggy and various kind of, I think he called him. Yeah, you said on this album, The outside world became all there was. I was just taking Polaroids of things around me moving too fast, which is like a very cinematic approach to lyricism and to the album itself.

So I definitely hear where those influences it. I know that he also said like Miles Davis Bitches Brew was an influence. Which is not something I had thought about listening to OK, compare, but when you hear something like that, you kind of start to see where maybe some of that influence kind of was attempted. to be kind of grasp. I think Johnny even said, okay, computer was a product of being in love with all these brilliant records,

trying to recreate them and missing. So I think that's very telling to the process of, I think they had a handful of songs, specific songs. Again, A Day in the Life by the Beatles is one. They named specifically. Yeah, they were also like really into DJ Shadow.

They said the airbag was them trying to make a DJ Shadow song. But they were like, oh, we failed at it, but it's still a really cool song. Right, yeah. I mean, yeah, even like a quote-unquote rock band attempting to sample their drummer is a very odd move. I mean, within the framework of what was going on and what was the rise of electronic music at the time, it does make sense in retrospect. But even a band attempting that at that time is kind of unusual, like a band. Like usually electronic producers were singular or a duo. And obviously most of the work was like, you know, made on computers. But here you have a live band. where even I think Ed said 80% of this album was recorded live, which is actually kind of mind-blowing for how kind of complex and like how many timbers there are on this record. But very much all these disparate influences,

none that you can very like point your finger to and say this sounds exactly like this, but all of them kind of homogenizing into what became an OK computer. Yeah, I saw this interesting tweet the other day that was like, it's kind of sad that George Lucas took all the like westerns and different, you know, whatever, different kinds of films that he saw growing up and made Star Wars. And then everyone who saw Star Wars growing up just made another Star Wars. Right. I get the parallel though.

Yeah, it was interesting. Right. You know, I think I think that we suffer from a lot of people who saw Star Wars, which is Radiohead and made another Star Wars, you know, but it's just not as good. Whereas I think Radiohead was really trying to like incorporate like you're saying all these like sort of really interesting influences as they perceived them. Right. Parts of them or whatever.

God, there's so many good songs on this fucking album that I want to talk about. We won't play it, but I just want to give a special shout out to Letdown. Even though I know it's probably not one of the most interesting songs on the album because it's kind of more of a straight rock song. But I love it. No? Okay, great. Great.

I love it. Okay, I'm dying to talk about this. I've glad you brought it up. I love Lettown. It's one of my faves. as one of my favorites as well. And it's another music nerdy thing, but hopefully it's kind of, uh, I never know if these are like interesting to other people.

They're interesting. So the very, very cool part about Letdown is that the very first thing you hear is Johnny's guitar riff. It's kind of like this noodly, meandering, arpeggio, as you like your favorite word. What is an arpeggia for the people listening who are not as like smart and sophisticated as me and you? It's just a chord A chord is just essentially three notes played simultaneously An arpeggio is just playing a chord

individual with individual notes instead Oh okay An arpeggio of this chord Wait that makes so much sense It's not as complicated I always thought I couldn't possibly understand This group of violin Because they're all Italian names

And like they sound intimidating But they're really very simple They're sexist, honestly. They're against the people of minds of women. I'm just kidding. The main guitar riff is in 5-4-time. So typically songs are in 4-4-time, which means there's four beats per measure.

You count 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4. You can clap your hands very easily. Like everyone, even if you don't know how to describe 4-4-time, you know exactly what it is and you can clap along to it. That's why we can dance to music. It's like, because we, it's like a language we understand that everyone understands, at least in the West. But this one's in five, four times. So there's an extra beat and it's an odd time singing sure you don't often hear, especially non-popular music.

So it's odd in that way. But then when the band comes in, they come in four-four time. So everyone's playing in four-four time, all playing in the same tempo. So it lines up. But the way that the parts overlap, the guitar doesn't repeat in the same spots as everyone else repeats. So like if just think of the difference between five and four and then you know multiply four plus four four and then five plus five plus five. If you can imagine those, I guess those lines of numbers on a graph like they're not going to line up symmetrically. And that's what happens in the song. And all that to say, if you listen to the song, it feels like the guitar part is like a part of but separate from everyone else. It's like isolated and like alienated, but it's also in it, if that makes sense. And if you listen to like what Tom is talking about, it's about isolation. It's about specifically transit.

It was the metaphor that he was talking about and, you know, people like commuting to work. So there's like there's a correlation between the alienation of the guitar with everyone else expressing the alienation of being alive while simultaneously with everyone. Yeah. Which was a very common critique Tom made over and over. And like this is where I know some of this stuff was in. intentional because Johnny talks about this specifically. He says, quote, the theme of transport and movement and anonymity works with the music. It's about that feeling you get when you're in transit, but you're not in control of it.

You just go past thousands of places and thousands of people and you're completely removed from it. So it's like what a better metaphor for a musical metaphor for exactly what Tom York is expressing. To have this disassociated guitar part amongst the band but also separated from it. Like so cool. That's really fucking cool. Most of the time you were talking, I was the meme of the lady doing math, you know? But then I understood. Then it clicked it to place.

Yeah, that is really fucking cool. And the fact that it's intentional and like it's like a giant Easter egg for people like you who understand this kind of stuff. And the rest of us are just like, what a cool song. I love it. I think whether or not you can describe it. Do you think I could perceive it? you can perceive it intuitively and it doesn't quite matter that you can describe it. It's like when you're trying to describe an album, I'm like, okay, computer, again, it's like, it transcends words.

We just hear it and we know it's fucking amazing. This is my passion to believe in why I actually do what I do on dissect is like there are reasons for it. There's a reason why Radiohead stands above the rest and we can point to moments like this and say, that's a reason. And then it's accumulation of all these details, right? that it all accumulates to this overarching feeling of like, this is amazing. That's so true because like oftentimes, and I've said it on the show a million times, and I'm like, this song makes me feel like this and I can't explain why, you know? And it's not just like whatever the lyrics.

And clearly like this song does really drive that aloneness feeling home. And now you have kind of explained why, even if it's on a level that I don't intellectually grasp while listening. you know, it doesn't matter because like my emotional intuition grasps it. And like, that's so cool. I think it's cool because like, I don't think it needs justification or explanation, but it is kind of nice to like have it, you know? Like you can listen to Radiohead and know it's very, very good without like having to describe it in the way that I tend to try to describe things because we just feel it.

But there are reasons why we feel it. Man, that's so good. Well, you brought up something that I think we should just like unpack a little bit, which was how letdown is about using a transportation and transit as, you know, a jumping off point to talk about alienation. And largely this album sort of does that because we talked about earlier. It's like born of like the, you know, dissociation that comes from endless touring, which is the place that Tom was writing from. And there is a article that producer Dylan found by Amanda Petrus. and the New Yorker. It's more recently, it's in the last couple of years, but kind of talking about how while this album wasn't about computers, even though it's called OK Computer. Every time I'm here at OK Computer, I'm like, OK, computer, you know?

Go off. It's giving computer. That it has become to be about that. And I kind of feel like it was also about that. Like, I kind of feel like you can't pull the two apart, right? Like the alienation and isolation at the hands of what is, you know, in the most specific and individual sense in terms of Tom York touring. But zoomed out is about like what is the touring? It's the result of capitalism, right?

It's the result of like sucking the blood dry out of these cash cows like you said. And what is, you know, what makes it possible globalization and what makes, you know, people feel more and more isolated and alienating? these things, you know, and technology, you know, even though it was like rudimentary technology. 97, there's plenty of technology. There's plenty of computers, you know, like there's a lot of people connecting online. There's a lot of, you know, it was a happier and safer space and Twitter wasn't there to addle my mind and leave me incapacitated as a person. But, you know, it was happening. And I think while this album is prescient, it was also like really a reflection of the time. ultimately it can all be boiled back down to consumerism and capitalism and how that's just

increasingly made people feel alone. Yeah. And I think the reason why we revere it so much thematically and maybe we give it more credit than the intent because they've been pretty open about this is not a concept album. Johnny Green one album title and one computer voice do not make a concept album. This is a bit of a red herring. So it's like as much as they want to distance themselves, I think why we think about it. in the ways that you just laid out

is because it's aged so damn well in terms of what technology has become and the parallel scale of like increasing technology and the universal disassociation and it's like we're all connected but alone like that feeling they were so early on that

and I think a lot of that has to do with just Tom's general feeling of being disconnected yeah totally paired with this emphasis on you know him taking polar pictures looking around in what he sees and what he sees is now people, you know, in masses, I think, you know, cars come a lot, a lot as like a metaphor in their early work.

Because I think it's like when you zoom out like bird's eye above 9 a.m. commute. It's like you just see like ants hurting towards. Ants marching, if you will. Making money for big corporations that are sitting behind, you know, behind computers. He did. Dave Matthews been saying about that in ants marching. It's literally about that. Go on. Oh, really? Yeah.

So I think like they were early on it and it's only kind of like exponentially grown to a place that we, no matter what your job is, we're all feeling. I think that way even like obviously the pandemic like exasperated that and accelerated that process even more. Yeah. So when you do look back on an album like this, it's more than the words. It's the feeling that he captured, that juxtaposition between isolation yet being connected, being around people online in real life. but also feeling very detached from it. I think it just aged so well. And it's obviously they couldn't have predicted it fully,

but it's just it panned out kind of perfectly. Totally. And it's not a song, but I mean, fit or happier is crazy in how much it is still the exact same. Like I listen to, I don't often sit and listen to it

because I don't think that's the point of it, but because it's the one that's the computer voice just the whole way through. Yeah, yeah. better, happier, more productive, comfortable, not drinking too much. You know, this is a thing about optimization, right? It's like all the things that everywhere around you is telling you how to optimize. And optimization is ultimately for more productivity, right?

That's the reason that's behind it. It's not to make you happier. It's to make you more productive. And that was already a thing. you know, capitalism really fucking, the 80s, obviously, but the 90s, it's like, babe, Starbucks is here. We are going to sell you only Starbucks coffee.

Brands have this huge rise and, like, outsourcing is really happening. We'll get into it more with Kid A, because obviously that book, No Logo, comes out a little bit later and they get really into the evils of branding and stuff. But, like, I just thought that that track is just like, whoof, like the fucking, you know, fit or happier, you're more productive, comfortable, not drinking too much, regular exercise at the gym, three days a week.

I was like, drag me again straight to hell. Like, car wash also on Sundays. Like, it's just like a list of how to be the most productive you can be. And it gets so crazy at the end where it's like no longer empty and frantic like a cat tied to a stick, like a pig in a cage on antibiotic. Tom York also is vegan. And I'm not sure he was vegan then, but a lot of these lyrics do sound like the lyrics of a vegan person. And what's crazy?

And this is like, I guess maybe outside the context of okay computer because it was not really clear back then. But it's like the way that cooperative like optimization towards making more money and more productivity like has been individualized with social media where we're like. Totally. We're all brands now, babe. We're all brands. We're all optimizing for the algorithm. Like we're all serving this God algorithm. We're all selling flat tummy tea.

But holler at me flat tummy tea if you want me to celebrate it's really it's really crazy like it's really crazy like what if tom you're sold flat tummy tea I would literally might die there's so many other songs I want to talk about on here oh I don't even know where like let's talk about karma police but we are not leaving this fucking recording until we also discuss no surprises tell me you started to say it like what is it about Karma place that musically is so, well, maybe I should play it first and then I'll ask you.

Sure. This is Karma Police. That was Karma Police. A goddamn gorgeous, beautiful song. Amazing. Yeah, the thing I would point out,

as you guys just heard, song structure again, like that's a big thing that jumps out to me for this album specifically. This is in what's called terminally climactic form, which is like a really fancy

word, all it means is like the last section of the song. Terminally climactic? Yeah. I love it. I love that. So it starts out as a typical song verse chorus versus. Kind of strange that the chorus is quieter than the verses, although that's not, you know, people do do that. You know, this is what you get is like the chorus and that's like the soft part of the song. But it all builds up towards what what is called the terminal climax. and that's when after we get to what feels like the bridge and the song really explodes there at the end, it never looks back.

So we've reached the terminal climax. We're not going to go back to the chorus. We're not going to go back to the verse. It's essentially identical to Hey Jude. So if you think about Hey Jude, there's verse chorus, verse chorus, and then when it gets to the na-n-na-na part, it never looks back and they do the na-n-na-na part for like,

I forgot that three minutes. Right. And that's a terminal climax. There's no going back from that section. It's really enjoyable for me. And what's kind of cool, too, is like, I don't know if the structure was modeled after Hey Jude, but certainly the piano part,

and I don't know if there's a way to play these two back-to-back, but the song, Seity by the Beatles, is interpolated as basically they ripped it off in the piano part of Karma Police. And if you play the two back-to-back, it's like very clear that it's nearly identical. Cole's there to tell you the smart stuff about the song. I'm there to tell you,

have you ever done drugs and just spun around in a circle going for a minute there. I lost myself. I lost my... It's the best. Highly recommend. That's the terminal climate. That's me terminally climaxing on drugs.

Exactly. Exactly. Like the way that you just like people that can see you, which is everyone, like you just had your arms in the air and it was like a euphoric, cathartic moment. Like that it is that because of the structure of the song. Ugh, it's gorgeous. Also, I want to point out, radio head becomes a bit like pavement to me. Hear me out in the opakness of the lyrics where there's always, there's always a couple of lyrics, though, that you could hang your fucking hat on, which is what we said in pavement.

Like, this is what you'll get when you mess with us, universal. Right. I've given all I can. It's not enough. Right. Universal. You know, like, there's other stuff that doesn't make any sense. Karma plays a restless girl.

Her Hitler hairdo is making me feel ill. I mean, you can see that, but it's maybe. maybe not a universe. I want to say also there's a line in the beginning, the very first verse, he buzzes like a fridge. He's like a detuned radio. This lyric is about alt radio,

literally, like he said it multiple times, that it got to a point where every time alt radio was on, all he heard was buzzing because it all to him, in his estimation, sounded the same. And so that's where that lyric came from, which I thought was kind of interesting.

I don't agree, Tom York, but. That's a really great point. just made because I think it's like indicative of radiohead overall in terms of lyricism where it's like abstract but accessible which is like radio head in a nutshell right like it's yeah it's challenging but there's there's just enough to like grasp on to and it's again it's like this impressionistic visuals that the feeling is there you might not know exactly what he's talking about specifically but you understand the sentiment and that's really all that matters yeah it's like it reinforces the feeling of the song which we kind of talked about the musical feeling of the song but

There's those lyrics are there to also like back it up. You know, like, there's a desperation in this song. And like it's also in those lyrics. It's also kind of like cynical. Some of the phrases he uses, it's almost like tongue and cheek. Like, because he'll use very colloquial common phrases, but the way that they're positioned in the song or sung, it's like it's always a little ironic cynical.

It's almost like, again, like the fake plastic trees thing, like where he's kind of poking fun simultaneously. Totally. This video is really cool too. The video that's most. stuck in my head of radio head as fake plastic trees because it's Tom York being pushed around in a grocery shopping cart in the grocery store. Which the director said was an allegory for death and like reincarnation.

I was like, okay, cool. Sure, bro. Okay, as promised, we don't need to play it, but exit music for a film is an incredibly important song. Yeah. They've said it was kind of the most meaningful song, I think, on the album to them. Tom said, we did this song in five hours and took it home and put it home and played it and cried. I thought, whoa. And I think it was because we've been on the road for a while

and we were really comfortable with each other. And it just really expressed an excitement and happiness that we felt. And it was written around the time that we first met REM and everything was changing shape. And it was really exciting and terrifying. And that feeling was sort of the feeling that was there all the way through the record. Yeah. It's on part to as, um, with street spirit. Totally. Totally. It evokes the same kind of emotional quality to me. Yeah. It's a song that was commissioned to be in Baz Luhrmann's Romeo and Juliet

goddamn gorgeous movie with a perfect soundtrack. It's not on the soundtrack. It just plays at the end like over the end credits. Exit music. Yeah, exit music for a film. The lyrics are obviously

referential of Romeo and Juliet. Tom York, famously a Romeo and Juliet Stan. He loved the film, the old film from the 60s. And he said he just couldn't believe why Romeo and Juliet after they made love didn't run away together.

He doesn't understand why didn't end up together. He's questioning Shakespeare? Yes, he sure is. I just wanted to bring up exit music for a film because I think it's an important song on the record. We'll play it later, but there is a Radiohead song on the Romeo and Juliet soundtrack, one of my fucking favorite radiohead songs, which is talk show host. The Nelly Hooper version, which gets you into the definitely the vibe of OK computer coming forward because it's sort of trip hop, obviously. But we need to talk about. We need to talk about Nigel, just kidding.

We need to talk about no surprises. Every time I think of no surprises, I just think of his head in that. Oh, in the water. The water. Yeah. For those of you that haven't seen, the music video is really crazy. It's just like Tom York is in a thing and water is slowly rising around him. And it gets, by the end, he's fully immersed in it.

In the documentary, you see how many times that he had to like pull the cord and spit out the water. He couldn't get it because his face doesn't move. the whole time, seemed it was really hard to do. Because he's singing, his eyes are open. Yeah, right. Tell me, cool. I just feel, this was the first song to be recorded for the album, by the way, besides Lucky, obviously.

I love this, and this is any moron can understand it, but like, I love that how they juxtapose the sound of like a lullaby. Right. Like this childish kind of, you know, lullaby music, which, you know, a little bit like how consumerism lulls you into submission, if you will. Uh-oh. For this song that is like pretty overtly anti-capitalist, right?

I just think that was so cool. Yeah, I love this song. It just so nostalgic for me because it was one of the first, it's another guitar song. Like if you grew up in the 90s and played guitar, like this was a song you learned. This like Today by Smashing Pumpkins. God damn gorgeous, beautiful song. Obviously like teen spear was when everyone learned. No, I think you nailed it though.

It's again the fake plastic tree thing where it's like a kind of an innocent image. Yeah. Lullaby is. a very accurate description of the guitar part. Even the melody is drawn out and like very fluid and very almost like sweet sounding. And then you like obviously look at the lyrics and you're just like, oh, this is very, yeah, anti-capitalist. I feel like there's like a lot of that kind of juxtaposition on the album.

And again, I think it speaks to that dissociation of like being amongst but also separate from and kind of like this disintegration of self through. consumer culture. I love it. I fucking love it. Let's hear it. This is no surprises. That was no surprises. God damn gorgeous. You know it. Beautiful song. Beautiful. Beautiful. Prist Jelans pointed out that it has a wouldn't it be nice-esque beach boys moment intro with I think it's the bells. What to say. I mean, we've already talked about it so much. I just love that like the fifth line is bring down the government. With that thing, ding.

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's perfect. Yeah, it's really, it's really, it's really is like, I mean, we already said it. It's just really is like the quiet desperation of being trapped by capitalism and consumerism into a life that like you may not like or want and you can't get out of it. Right. And there's a catchiness to it that's kind of eerie.

Yeah, it's definitely eerie. It's like Truman Showass song. Right, right, right, right. Yeah. There's a definitely, yeah, there's kind of meta. Pleasantville or whatever. Yeah, Pleasantville is actually a great metaphor, right? You have to remind yourself sometimes with listening to these songs.

It's like, think about the bends and then think about these songs. And it's just like, that leap is just so phenomenal. It's like most bands don't have these leaps. So it's really hard to explain exactly why, aside from that, they're just really talented. And they, I think at this point, we're confident enough to like try all these things. I think the aspiration was probably always there. I mean, again, like not all bands start as like, music, you know, nerds together in the band room. And I know Tom apparently can't even read music

and has no interest in doing so. But like, you know, they are Tom and Johnny are clearly like both kind of competitive and also like really like interested in the form and function of music. That's not the same with all bands. But they got that confidence from people being like increasingly, oh, we love the Ben's. Okay, you love the Benz? Let me. I have other ideas. Allow me to try them. Yeah, I think Ed was like said that the bends was because they made the decision to do what they wanted and then it worked led to OK Computer. Right. Like if it had failed, they probably, we probably wouldn't have made another album. I would be like, bye.

No, yeah. Okay. One last thing I want to say before I move on to the reviews is that I sort of said it earlier. But if you go back and listen, you the audience, not you call. I know you listen many times to OK Computer. just think about how Tom York purposely set out to sing in a different way on every song. Because that's crazy. And it's really challenging and it's really interesting.

And to your point, you were saying, like, he started to treat his voice like an instrument as opposed to, like, just singing. And I think that probably adds to the overall feeling of the album feeling kind of like purposely a little disjointed to make you feel a little uncomfortable. Yeah. And I think it's a perfect kind of segue when we get to Kid A in terms of like his voice as an instrument. Like it literally becomes an instrument in terms of like very abstract and just part of the texture more than like the main driving force of a song. And so you can see the early sign of that throughout OKA computer.

Definitely not obviously as extreme as what Kidae comes to be. But the seeds are there. Like again, like the bend has has the seeds that then kind of blossom or whatever into OKa computer. It's like we're seeing those signs here with the. computer that you can start to see what happens with Kida. It makes sense. Totally. This is also like, I thought interesting. They start to like get these fan sites popping up because the internet is kind of happening and they become really important later. There's a little interview about how like they're talking about their own website, but it sucks, but they're saying that

there's like fan sites. These are better. Let me get to the reviews. Where are the reviews? The Guardian. So the Guardian says there should be a health warning printed on the sleeve. Do not play if you are feeling fragile, L.O.L. Radiohead's attempt to capture the so-called miserable human condition in 12 songs is surprising and sometimes inspiring, but its intensity makes for a demanding listen. That's kind of what

we were saying earlier. I'm not going to read all the reviews because there's a lot. This album was like the best reviewed. Like people lost their goddamn minds. Like, this was, you know, amazing, perfect, gorgeous, wonderful. We love

it. Chris Gostell gave it a B-minus. but you know what, it's okay. It's okay. It's okay. He gets on board. He gets on board when we get to kidding. You know, four stars from Rolling Stone. It went a bunch of awards. It sells super well.

And I think it's really funny because this is important to say because that also informs kiddie. How universally beloved this album was, how many awards they win. It lands on a bunch of like best album of the year. lists, it lands on a bunch of best album ever lists, like the next year, like right under the Beatles or sometimes above the Beatles. And it's like kind of insane. Producer Dylan says that in 2014, it was included in the Library of Congress in the National Recording Registry as

culturally, historically, or aesthetically significant. Huge. You know what's not there? It wasn't made by Shaggy, which I believe also came out in 1927. Didn't make it. Did I make it into the library of Congress? Yeah. Just fucking huge. Which is so cool. I love moments like this because they took a wild risk and it worked. Totally.

And people loved it. And it's not an obvious album that people would love, especially not like quote unquote masses because it is different. It is singular. And I don't think anything else sounds like it before or since. And to recognize that in the moment in such a universal way, I think is really, really cool. Yeah. Because that doesn't always happen, obviously.

So it's like when it does happen, like I feel like we need to acknowledge it, that it was a great kind of cultural moment. We are at a place in culture where an album like this could be accepted. It's the Beatles effect to me because they had attention. They had a very strong fan base. They ended up taking another risk and it paid off. I mean, how many bands were started because of this, you know, because of this record alone, and how many bands strived to reach somewhere close to an okay computer. Where did it get us is my question?

No, but honestly. Oh, it's cold play, I think. And I love yellow. A goddamn gorgeous, beautiful song. I have a sauce spot for early cold play in my heart too, but it's like you can see the striving of trying to ascend in a similar way and just not coming close. But yeah, the importance of this album, I think, is just kind of speaks for itself. Anyone that has any awareness of music and music history,

understands the importance of this album. I think it's a singular work. I think to their credit, they did not try to repeat it. I know we'll probably say most of that conversation for Kidae, but I mean, how many bands are going to do an OK computer and they take another risk,

arguably the biggest risk of their career, and just totally flip. And I know there's certain reasons for that, among them, like kind of survival and a way to keep the band together. But in terms of its reception and then its effect on the band, I think in terms of a segue to KD,

I think it's almost in a weird way like another creep in that it propelled them from, I forgot, there's some story where Tom said we were playing to this many people every night and all of a sudden we're playing to like whatever it was, like 30,000 people. Yeah.

And that shock, just that overnight bump, which it was literally overnight after a computer came out, really sent Tom specifically into like a spiral that does lead to what Kitt A becomes. But I think yeah, it's a lot of pressure to follow up an album like that and it's a lot of pressure to then now be performing headlining shows that, you know, tens of thousands of people that are coming to to see you. Totally. No longer Alanis Morris says. Right, exactly. Or PJ Hartley. We'll talk about it more after Kitt A, which we will talk about obviously next. But I do want to just make a point to bring this up because I do want to revisit it when we get to Kitt A. There's a great piece about this by Barry Walters later.

on that talks about how important it was to remember that throughout the 90s, rock stopped being futuristic because electronic music kind of handled that. And I would argue hip hop, obviously. And I think it's so cool that Radiohead did it. And I think it's very cool, obviously, even more extent in Kite. And I think it's very cool that the world listeners, audience, media celebrated them for it, you know, rewarded them for it. But I can't work out my feelings about it. And I think maybe after Kittay, we can figure it out. But like, It didn't push the genre forward as much as it should of. And I don't know why.

I think it was because if I had to say now before we get to the end and don't hold me to this because I can have new thoughts. It's that what they did was really interesting within their own context. Within the context of rock music, it was very interesting. But in the context of music at large, it was maybe not that progressive. I don't know. I'm still working this out in my mind. Maybe you're saying like there were other genres now taking the lead in terms of innovation where they were still working within kind of the general parameters of rock music of whatever like post. I forgot.

I'm not terrible at the post grunge stuff. Right, right. I mean, I'll call radio had post rock, right? That was the whole thing about OK computer and kid A. But I think I know what you're saying if I'm hearing you correctly is that it wasn't, rock could kind of come in this is kind of the beginning of the end is this the final form like did we did radiohead embody the final form of rock music and is that why it died i mean obviously it's a big statement but like you think about what kind of bands come after you think about like the killers or white stripes or blip biscuit or that too but it's like all kind of either looking backwards and like white stripes famously or or imitating radio head imitating radio head imitating radio or like limpiscuit like the fusion of rap rock. Right. Fusion, which is essentially what Radiohead's kind of doing more more beautifully and subtly.

Right, right, right. Listen, I love New Metal too, you know. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. We'll get into it. Thank you so much, cool. We're going to leave off here. Big cliffhanger, babe. The kid, he is coming. Come back next week for part two of Radiohead. If you liked what you heard today, subscribe for more episodes of Fansplain, only on Spotify. Our guest today was Cole Kuchner. Follow him on Twitter at Dissect Podcasts and check out his shows, Dissect and Keynotes on Spotify. Bansplane is a Spotify original show.

This episode was produced by my Just Okay computer, producer Dylan, aka Dylan Tupper Rupert, and edited by Cheryl Crosby with help from Casey Simonson, Shannon Cornett, Tari Miller, and Kelly Kyle. Executive producers for Bandsplain are Yossi Sallek, me, and Gina Delved. Our gorgeous and catchy theme song,

was composed and performed by Bethany Cocentino and Jennifer Clavin, and graciously recorded by Carlos Delagarsa in Los Angeles, California. Special thanks to Robert Adler, Leah Edwards, David McDonough, Dana Mearsson, Desco Hopper, and The Crows I Have Been Feeding Peanets to in the mornings trying to win their love. Come back every Thursday for a new episode of Vansplay, only on Spotify. I don't know, is this like nerdy, like music stuff working? No, I love it. It's so interesting. Okay.