Bandsplain - Rilo Kiley with Quinn Moreland

Episode Date: April 14, 2022

Pitchfork’s Quinn Moreland joins us to explain the reverberations of Jenny Lewis’s reign as the queen of 2000s indie rock with her band of Los Angeles darlings, Rilo Kiley. Follow Quinn Moreland on Twitter at @quinnmoreland. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's with this band anyway? I don't get it. Can you please explain? Wait, like, Bansplain? Hello and welcome to Bansplain. I am your host, Yossi Salick. This is a show where I invite an expert guest on to explain a cult band or iconic artist to me and to you. Today's episode is about Riloh Kiley.

If you've never heard Riloh Kiley, baby, it's bad news. This is what Riloh-Kiley sounds like. My guest today is Quinn Morland, staff writer at You Old Pitchfork. Welcome to the show, Quinn. Thanks for having me. I really liked that intro joke. Thank you. We've established off mic that you're younger than me, which you swiftly agreed to,

without knowing how old I was. And I'm still processing that. And we'll continue to do so throughout the course of this recording. And that's fine. That's between me and God. But Quinn, how old are you? I'm 29. I'm curious how old you thought I was.

I guess I assumed that you were like somewhere between 28 and 32 or something. I was interviewing someone and they asked if I was their age, which was around 50. Excuse? Yeah. So, you know, age, what is age? I would jail. I would go up be in prison. It was over the phone.

It was not a video thing. All right, okay, okay. That would be. She was like, you're so mature and well-spoken. Yeah. That's nice. Yeah. The reason I bring up age is because Riloh-Kiley is like a total blind spot for me, much like bright eyes and like a couple of other bands.

We kind of talked about it many moons ago on the My Chemical Romance episode. There's just like a grouping of artists that I did not know about. Priser Dillon says, interestingly modest mouse is this era. That's kind of true. Modus Malice was a little bit earlier. And I find that there's like three years below me all of a sudden, like, people are like, yes, Raleau Kelly changed my life. But once you get like to my age, and I'm sure people can call it and incorrect me, maybe it's simply me that didn't know about it. But I don't know.

So I didn't have a live journal. Do you know what I'm saying? Like there's just like some certain cultural things that I was not part of. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would say like Modest Mouse, for me, I definitely. became aware of both Riloh-Kiley and Modest Mass at the same time, but as we established before, I was a little younger. I feel like both of those bands I discovered when I was really just like

getting into music. So it doesn't even really matter if they were recent or not. Like they were just the cool bands. Sure. Sure. I think they're always going to be like the cool bands for high schoolers. I mean, 100%. I mean, I still think to this day, Nirvana, high school students and like teenagers still get into Nirvana. It's crazy. It's oldies at this point, but they're still legions of teens that are like, I love this. And you're like, amazing. Yeah. Tell me why you really are the person to talk about Riloh Kylie. Well, I was definitely a little surprised that you asked me, but while I haven't been able to write about a lot of their work for Pitchfork, because that was handled before my time in ways that I don't necessarily agree with, I was able to, you know,

Ooh, yeah, we can get into that. I was able to review the reissue of their self-titled, like, first album called the Initial Friend EP. And I think Rilkehkeye inspired, like, a lot of musicians who I care about deeply. I think a lot of the ways that Jenny Lewis was, like, writing have been really inspirational and, like, really forged a path for, like, young female artists. And that's definitely, like, what I write about a lot. But also, I just love Rilo Kiley. It's literally all you need, babe.

All you need is to direct me to a live journal entry that you made under, you know, your silver lining or whatever. Let's dive in. I'm sure you have a pretty solid sense of the pre-Rilo-Kiley existence of one Jenny Diane Lewis born January 8, 1976. Maybe not surprisingly a Capricorn. But let's break it down for the people who, like, maybe like me, did not. know this. Born in Las Vegas to entertain her parents. It's in the blood, babe. Tinseltown was always running through her veins. Her mom was a professional singer. Her father was a member of the harmonica gang. And they also sang covers together in a lounge act called Love's Way in the 1970s. I love that

for them. After she was born, I actually want to just preface this by saying I gained an extreme amount of respect for Jane of Louis after sort of learning about, like I obviously knew everybody knows that she was in Troop Beverly Hills and she was a child actress and I'd seen the Wizard many times and, you know, that's like also a fun generational thing. It's like, I remember how big of a deal of Troop Beverly Hills and the Wizard were because like I was a kid when those came out. I was like, oh my God, we're going to watch the Girl Scout movie again, you know? Yeah, I had no point of reference for that. Like, I feel like, yeah. Dylan said that too, but like for me, she was, that's who she was, you know, she was the girl from the Girl Scout movie.

She started acting, I guess her father left to continue his Harmonica career and her mom, moved them to the valley of Los Angeles. Van Nuys to be specific. Shoutout, 818. And she started acting after she was, I guess, discovered really young, like maybe like three by an agent at a restaurant. She was little. She was very little.

And she was like the breadwinner of the family. Like from that, like five-year-old supporting the family to me is so off-top already insane. And it only gets, I'd say it gets wilder from there, really. Right? Yeah, I mean, and then, you know, obviously there's the part about, you know, her mother being a lifelong heroin addict and funneling, you know, apparently some of this money that Jenny was making as a child actress into a drug dealing business that she would do out of the house. There was always like wild characters around, but also like interesting people because she was, you know, a musician and she was fun. In that sense, fun mom, fun drug dealer mom. I don't want to get too into the weeds and the details about her childhood and, you know, trauma and stuff.

But that's a lot to take on your shoulders as a small child. And like, sort of grow up. I can't imagine being the person with the job and your family when you're a child. It's like the undercurrent beneath, I feel like a lot of Rilokai Lai songs. Like her, I feel like she writes a lot about like survival. Right. And something that's kind of really important to me or like something that really struck me when I was thinking, about their first release was that this was like her second career.

This was like her starting over. She was like already very successful in her first career and chose to walk away. Yeah. And like had seen like a lot of presumably like ugly stuff. And it is pretty amazing that like off the bat, you know, her work is like really strong, I would say. Yeah. I mean, it's a little annoying to me that she was so good at two things. Yeah.

I would agree with that. When I think about, you know, that era of 80s child actors, it's like so, because she was, she was like besties with like Sarah Gilbert and Toby McGuire and Leonardo DiCaprio. I'm pretty sure she's in that Soleil Moon Fry documentary. Yeah, I was actually going to ask about that. What was that called? Kid 90. Yeah, kid 90. Yeah, she's in it because I watched it. And it's just like, I think of that. I'm like, what a nutso time. Also maybe like a blessed time, though, to be a child actor because there was no social media. Yeah. So like. you could go to a party and, like, be a normal teen and, like, smoke a joint or whatever, and no one was going to, like, blast you on page six or whatever. Yeah, especially, like, I mean, Jenny Lewis wasn't, like, Drew Barrymore or someone. Right. It's much smaller skit. I mean, she was famous, but, like, again, like, no child stars were that famous considering

that you didn't have the social media, right? Like, it was, like, there was the big, big ones. And then the rest of them were just like, yeah, I'm on Mr. Belvedere sometimes. It's chill, you know, like whatever. I can walk down the street. A lot of people say that, oh, don't you miss out on your childhood. But I don't know. This is my childhood.

And I'm learning a lot and I'm enjoying it very much. And I don't think there are any downsides. Okay. She was always into music, though. And I'm sure you also read this. But like besides her parents being musicians and singers and stuff, her mom had this like fantastic vinyl collection. And she was like always playing a female singer songwriting.

She said in like an interview, I think, with The Guardian later that that's how she like learned about classic song structures. And she was really into the musician. Lauren Niro particularly stood out because her voice was outside what you usually hear on the radio. I thought that was a really interesting detail because I will be honest, when I first heard Riloh Kiley, which was like a year ago or something, I was like, oh, this is what Gen Neel is. this is singing voices. I was like a little surprised. I don't know what I don't know what I expected it to be like, but it is a bit unusual, right? I would say so. I mean, she's an incredible singer, like we'll get into, and I feel like we'll probably stumble into some of these, like the ways she was perceived by like media and like the way she was kind of like talked down, like sexism. I think some of the

like weirdness of her voice like played into that because people could like project whatever ideas about like femininity they had onto it. Totally. But did you really? But did you read about her love of hip hop? Yeah, I thought it was really funny that the first record she ever bought was past the duchy by musical youth and she was like super like into it because she really liked the upbeat rhythm and she didn't know about reggae but like kind of got her into reggae. And then yeah, how she was like so obsessed with, was it three fate high and rising by Dela Soul?

Yeah, yeah, it was. She said that like specifically that album like really shaped. her idea of like songwriting, which is really interesting and like the stories and the characters. And that's never something I would have thought of. Yeah, I wonder like maybe as we go through the discography, something will strike us. So like, oh yeah, I can see the parallel here. Off top of my head, I don't see one. And then as we're charting the music that made Jenny Lewis, this is the one that made the most sense to me, which is that at 18 years old,

she found Liz Fair, specifically Exile and Guyville, because she was on a trip, I guess, to Thailand with a friend, like for a month, and she only had this one tape of Exile and Guyville. And she said, I was writing a lot of poetry, and she embodied a talky style of songwriting that I found very accessible. Holy shit, I hope one day I can make music like this. See, Liz Fair was my right, look highly. So I, like, totally can chart the course of, like,

Liz Fair to Riloh-Kiley, then obviously to Phoebe Bridgers, Waxahatchee, yeah, Phoebe Bridgers, Mitzke, Charlie Bliss. Like, everyone. And I'm sure we could go backward from that too. But for me, it definitely started with Liz Phair. And like, it made a lot of sense to me that that piece was in place for Jenny Lewis as well, given, especially given her lyricism, which I was really blown away by. She's such a sharp lyricist. Yeah. And I think that's like specifically when I said that she kind of like emerged as a songwriter, not fully formed, but like pretty well formed. And like her lyrics are already just like really interesting and really, really different from like mainstream

music at that time. Like obviously as we'll get into like she found her second family with like the Saddle Creek and like Connor Oberst and all that sort of stuff. But like for LA, like it's definitely different, I would say for that time. Yeah. Just rounding out what we're talking about in terms of like legacy and where she fits in the charting of that specific kind of female artists. Like, I think it was really important that, you know, all the big indie artists in the early 2000s were men. And to see a woman fronting a successful and cool indie rock band was like a big deal. Yeah, definitely, especially since, I mean, like, Liz Faire's like solo artist or like Alonis Morissette. Yeah, totally. Or like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, Carano didn't play good

You know, like, I mean, she might play guitar in her own time or she's But it's just, I'm talking more about like what's striking this younger generation. Like I saw a woman on stage holding a fucking guitar and fronting a band of men. You know, it's cool. Yeah, I think that that's definitely something that like Katie Crutchfield of Waxahatchee has said specifically. And like she has one of their album covers tattooed on her arm, like that that was a really mind-blowing thing. I can remember kind of having like a similar experience when I was younger.

But I do hope that now like there are so many more like. female fronted bands that are finding success and are not just, you know, small local bands that, like, hopefully that experience is less like, wow, no one, like, there's no one else like this, you know, does that make sense? Totally. You know, yeah, I mean, again, it can always be better, but I think that we've come leaps and fucking bounds. Definitely.

It's interesting because, like, in thinking of, like, it's not that there wasn't female fronted rock bands before this either, right? Yeah. It's like, whole. Yeah. comes to mind, Elastika, Veracol, you know. They weren't indie, right? They were like sort of agro in the best way possible and mainstream.

By the time, you know, Jenny Lewis got to them. But Liz Fair is probably a perfect example because she was more indie. Like even in the sound of what she made and the low fineness of what she produced, like I could see that being so much easier to grasp onto if you were going to eventually front an indie band. Yeah, also someone who I feel like her music was not critically. I mean, Exile and Guyville was one thing, but a lot of her music was not critically, or it didn't receive really like the respect that it does now. And I feel like that's kind of a similar thing with Rilkeye Lkeley. Like their fans have always found them.

And like people will always find Liz Phair because her work, it goes beyond that. It like really goes into like people's hearts. And I think that's kind of the other thing talking about like the female fronted bands. Like, yes, of course there were those. But I think Jenny Lewis's writing is so brave. And that's not to say that other female songwriters weren't writing brave music. But I think people really, I know I did, like latched on to the vulnerability and like the ugliness of things she was talking about, but also like the optimism. And it just is like, I don't know.

There's something for everyone, I would say. She definitely delivered it in more of a, here's the airplane. You know what I mean? I think that might have also helped, you know. Yeah. Like, this isn't, this is a nice, gorgeous music. Listen to what I'm saying. It's on underneath it.

Okay, lastly, before we get into the first release that you so beautifully wrote about, the name. Producer Dillon was able to uncover an episode of Loveline, shout out originally on K Rock, my favorite radio station of all time, that Blake Senate, who is the former boyfriend of Jenny Lewis, former bandmate of Jenny Lewis and Raleigh, Kylie, born September 22nd, 1976. a Virgo and a Capricorn walk into a bar, babe. They form a band, the work ethic. But he was also a teen actor, and he was most probably known for being Ronnie Pinsky on Salute Your Shorts, Fantastic Show. And also Joey the Rat Epstein on Boy Mates World.

Weirdly introduced by Tara Subcoff, loved that little detail, like really puts you in a place in time. Shout out imitation of Christ. Again, such a time. Anyways, they start this band together. I read somewhere, and I didn't, write it down where Blake originally wanted her to sing backup in his band. That was kind of the vibe.

Yeah, yeah. Maybe you read that in like there's a really great 2007 spin article that like, that's probably what it was. I definitely have a lot of quotes from in my notes because he and Pierre de Reeder, they were friends in high school and they had been playing music kind of concurrently like Jenny and Blake had become friends and they were writing songs. And in the spin piece, It says that, like, Jenny kind of, like, disappeared for a year. She attributed it to, like, depression. And Blake and Pierre formed a band. And, yeah, they, like, reached out to Jenny and we're, like, you can sing backup.

And she was like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, I'm going to sing lead and write lyrics. She was like, how about you go fuck yourself, actually. Yeah, just like, I don't care about that band. I don't care about the, like, Jenny Lewis backup singer band. Yeah, obviously, Jenny Lewis didn't care about that band either because she was not going to be part of it. but I think that's important for all of us. Yeah.

But also important, I think, for us to mention because it sets up from the beginning that there was an interesting dynamic. Yes, definitely. And I think you're pointing at the Capricorn and Virgo thing is, you know, very important. Right? I could not find the birthdays of Pierre de Rada.

I mean, that's not, it sounds French, I don't know. And the original drummer, Dave Rock. But sorry, guys, if anyone knows what their star signs are, I could not find it. But the most important dynamic, probably this Virgo Capricorn dynamic, which then they also started dating. So makes a whole other bag of chips. Yes. Anyways, I brought up K. Rock to say that Blake said that he had a dream in which he was being chased by a sports almanac.

And when it got him, he says, I lived through it and I came upon an Australian rules football player from the 19th century named Riloh Kylie. Interesting. That sounds like a lie to me. Yeah. I'm actually surprised there's an audio clip of him saying that because I've read so many different explanations for the name over the years. Like various types of athletes, there was one that was like two gay teens who committed suicide on like some railroad tracks and their last names were like Riloh and Kylie or something like that. And then another one I read was like the name appeared to Blake in a dream and like Riloh Kiley predict. the day of Jenny Lewis's death, which I don't know what day that would love to know that day.

I read that as well. Yeah. All of these sound like they're like fucking with people. Exactly. Yeah, it's a great name, but does it mean anything? Probably not. Probably not. As per your pitchfork piece, I'm going to read it right back to you and to everyone.

They played their first show in 1998 at Space Land. May it rest in peace. It's now known as, I believe, the satellite. Is that right, producer land? Yeah. Been to a lot of shows since Baseland. One David Foley was present. Kids in the Hall comedian, star of news radio.

And he loved them. He thought they were amazing and decided to pay for their demo. Yeah. Where are the comedians today? Why are like, why does not happen? Yeah, where are the patrons? Where are the comedians funding indie rock today, babe? Yeah.

Show yourselves. Yeah, he was like, wow, this band's great. Let me fund them. and he set them up with like some initial recording sessions. That's very cool. I mean, it's very cool and it's very weird and random and I love it. It seems very L.A. Yeah, very L.A., very 90s.

It's just very funny to me. This demo was this the initial, like did he basically pay for the initial friend? Yeah, I think more or less. I think definitely a good chunk of it was like recorded in those sessions. They probably finished up other songs at like one of their houses where they later recorded another album. But that was definitely their, big boost because like Blake and Jenny had been playing shows and I don't I don't know if um

Blake and I'm going to start calling him Pierre DR. PDR. I don't know if they had been playing shows but yeah this this is like their big boost towards being a real band. Okay so the initial friend now I believe known just as Rilo Kylie released independently in 1999. The first song is called frog. I have a little note for myself here that says despite myself I like this song. Shall we hear Frug and really just put us in the Riloh-Kiley universe? Yeah. Is it the Frug or the Frug?

I think it's the Frug. You're probably more right than I am. Is it, oh yeah, because she says in those all thousand times, Frug. Why do I want to say Frug? Shrug. Okay, let's hear the Frug. As some people call it, I've heard it both ways. This is the Frug.

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dot FM slash music and talk. That was The Frug, or as I've heard it also called The Frog. I've heard it both ways. Yeah, so I'm curious why what your little note to yourself meant. I mean, I think I understand what you meant, but I'm curious. Oh, yeah, none of this is usually for me. Like, it's, it's, I'm just going to say it. First drop of the episode, it's really fucking tweet.

Okay, yeah, yeah, no, definitely. You go to the dictionary and you're like, page through the T's, end of the T's, tweet. Oh, there it is, the fruque. If I was putting together a playlist of like my favorite Rilichaeli songs, this one would not be on it, because I think it is really catchy and it was like their first big song so I felt like it needed to be included but it is like a huge outlier

from their catalog so the Frug is like a dance from the 60s and in the song she's saying you know she can do all these little dances and then it's you know starts to get she starts to like invert that and say some kind of more dark things

and I think that is like more Ryle Lke highly than the other part I really liked that And not to bring up Liz Phair again, but it reminded me of like, okay, this is like a total Liz Phair thing, right? To like present songs in these sort of like girlish, lelting nursery rhymes singing type songs, but then say like them like pretty fucked up shit in them, you know? A lot of songs on here.

I am truly, I am in the smoking room at Spaceland. My hair is cut into a Janet from three. company haircut. I am probably wearing some sort of embarrassing footwear. Maybe it's saddle shoes. Do you know what I'm saying? I do. A Peter Pan collar might be present. I'll never admit or deny, but it's totally possible

that I was wearing one. And that's what this era is. Yes. It's definitely tweet. I mean, there's like the hand claps and like the video, Jenny Lewis has this like great, very 90s cropped haircut, like her bright red hair. Yeah, it's a great look, but also very like

cute. So the video was directed by a man named Morgan J. Freeman, no Shawshank Redemption, a different person. I don't know how he found Riloh Kylie if I had to stake a guess. Tinsel down, babe, you know. Jenny Lewis was just five minutes ago an actor and also Blake Senate. So maybe Friends of Friends. He included the song as well as the song 85 in the soundtrack to the film Desert Blue that he directed, starring Christina Ricci.

And he also directed, like I said, the music video. And it got onto 120 minutes. Yes. And I think there's a great quote from Blake where he's like pretty random to see the most independent of independent bands on MTV. Yeah.

Pretty random, I would say. Especially at that time. Yeah. And their music video has like clips from the film in it like Christina Ricci. And those two songs, 85 and Frug, were also featured in Dawson's Creek later. Gorgeous.

And I think, I think like kind of Rilu Kiley's like off the bat featuring in more mainstream media, I think was pretty, like people had strong feelings about that and people wrote them off for that. Like sellout stuff? Yeah, like the pitchwork review for their next album. It's like weirdly focused on the fact that they were on Dawson's Creek. The one that's in the format of a screenplay? Yes, that one. I wanted to walk into the ocean with rocks in my pocket.

I was like, who, whom's allowed this? I don't to be. That's Tweed. It's tweed, but in the worst way, the most embarrassing type of tweet. But it's still there for all to see. Every indie band was on Dawson's Creek at some point. Like, what are you talking about? Like the OC babe, made careers.

Absolutely made careers. You chose another song off this album. Is this a song that you would put on your favorite, Riloh-Kiley? Yes. Tell us about this song. Okay. Glendora. Yeah, Glendora.

Before I get into Glendora, I think. think like they haven't really found their sound on this EP, which is why, I mean, I guess like Frue and Glendora aren't like so far apart, but there are some songs on this album that are like, they're clearly trying things out. And that's cool. That's what, you know, you should do if you're a new band. But yeah, so Glendora is like a little more in line with like the sound people would identify with Raelkele-Kiley. Is Glendora in the valley? I kind of picture that like clueless valley scene when I hear the word Glendora. But I don't know California. No, Glendora is like east of L.A. Okay. It's like literally not L.A. It's like, yeah, it's the Persian. It's the Inland Empire. It's actually close to Sandemus.

Okay. San Dimas football, high school football rules, Bill and Ted. It's like pretty far away from L.A. Okay. You, I mean, I'm sure there's a reason to go there shows. Yeah. It seems like in this song, she's going there, like, for a guy, kind of. Yeah.

The song's about, like, this guy who's kind of playing games with her. and she's going along with it, and she knows that it's dumb that she's doing that, but that's life. And she has this great line that's like a silence of the lambs reference where she's like, would you fuck me because I'd fuck me? Because like I said, the initial friend EP is a little bit all over the place. But like the frug, this song also has those like hints of darkness that are really interesting

and show that Jenny Lewis as a songwriter is like really thinking. That sounds so dismissive. But she's thinking on a much more complex level than a lot of people. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. Okay, this is Glendora. That was Glendora. Glendora, a city in the San Gabriel Valley, 26 miles east of Los Angeles. I do love the, I must say, the quick shout out of Duarte, which she does pronounce

sort of strangely, but Duarte is where the closest Sonic is to Los Angeles. That is a good thing to know. For all of those looking for a sonic, it's in Dorte. This song is giving me like pop punk singer accent. Definitely the emphasis on the accent part of that. I left my promul. There's a lot, yeah, there's like songs in this album that are like more ballady and like a little bit more like country tinged. And this one is definitely the most pop punky.

And like the word that was coming up to me when we were listening to it just now was like, she's like an active participant in her life. like the things that she's describing are not just like happening to her. Like she is consciously choosing even if it's not like what she necessarily would like to do to get in bed with those like dancers or like, you know, driving around and like I cry, cry, and I complain and then like, but I do it all again. It is like this interesting admission of just imperfection. Right.

Do you feel like Riloh-Kiley at this time was paying attention to like what? else was going on contemporary indie rock wise. God, so it was 1999. There was like a bright eyes. Bright eyes I'd put out maybe like an album. And then an EP of Montreal. Oh God, of Montreal. There's some lit Tigray happening.

Built to Spill, Keep It Like a Secret came out in 1999. Wilco's Summer Teeth. Yeah, I was. definitely thinking Wilco. I might be very wrong about this, so hopefully I don't get a lot of angry at, but I don't think that the Riloh Kylie and Bright Eyes universe had like crossed over yet. Yeah, I don't think so. But I know she, I know they were like a big fan of like cursive. So maybe, maybe like loosely, but also like a big thing that I think is important and something that the band has said before back when they were still a band is that they really were like

outcasts. Yeah. Especially because I think of like Blake and Jenny's. Hollywood origins. I mean, they were like a scruffy indie band, but they were from Hollywood. They weren't part of a scene is what you mean. Yeah. That makes sense. I guess that was kind of my question. I don't get the sense that they were part of like what was going on with other kinds of indie rock. Yeah. I know that they became friendly with Elliott Smith a bit later, but I don't think that had happened yet exactly. In 1999, you know, we're still in the tail end of the 90s, which means like there's a lot of 90s bands that are still very popular and touring and stuff. And Riloh-Kiley, after this release, tours with NautaSurf and the Breeders.

Yeah. And toured with Superchunk. I'm so interested to know, like, how that happened. I also read that and was just like, okay, like that sounds like a great tour. But, yeah, I don't know. I mean, maybe like, what, if they already had like one semi-famous comedian in their, you know, fan list, maybe. That's true. And I guess, like, getting your song played on MTV is going to, you know, get a lot of

notice and industry notice, you know, so. Yeah, but notably they were not on a label, like still. Right. So that didn't happen for whatever reason immediately. Very interesting. The Superchunk thing apparently came about because Jim Wilbur from Superchunk, the guitarist saw them opening for Nata Surf in North Carolina. And I guess Jenny was a fan of Superchunk.

And so she made Blake go give him a copy of their CD. and Superchunk called them later and was like, we want you to open. CDs, you can't like hand someone a QR code. Yeah. What am I supposed to do with this? I have a CD player in my car. Good. CDs are back, baby. Yeah, I've heard this vibe shift.

Okay, yes. And then, like you said before, January 12, 2000, two Riloh-Kiley songs, the same two. The Frug and 85 show up in Dawson's Creek. Season 3 episode 11, Barefoot and Cape Fest. Which that also put a lot of people on to Riloh-Kiley because that was a time, I mean, that was really a thing that people would like hear a song on a TV show and then also it would appear on like soundtracks that they would put out. So I think that really like elevated them a level in terms of people knowing about them. You know like 120 minutes is one thing, but like being on Dawson's Creek is like, yeah, I've never, in my Dawson's Creek history, I don't think I've ever. actually got into season three. So I don't know what happens in that episode. I don't know if the

songs like soundtrack, some like romantic. I mean, I guess neither of those songs are like romantic, maybe 85, but I don't know what the frug would soundtrack in Dawson's Creek. I'll tell you what happens. There's a new kid in town. Dawson experiences an identity crisis when Principal Green's daughter, Nikki, emerges as another aspiring young director. And Joey experiences her own crisis when Dawson won't open up to her about the pain of his parents. Yes. Divorce. Meanwhile, Jack's first efforts to hit on another guy are rebuffed.

Pacey and Andy uncomfortably find themselves sharing the same after-school activity, and Jen realizes that she may have passed up a chance at something special with Henry. This all sounds like a Riley-Ciley song. Well, it looks like they put the most perfect music. Some other music that was in here, Imagine by John Lennon. Classic indie artist. So classic NARs and something called Angels in the Attic by someone named Deborah Davis. I've not heard of it.

Okay. Talk to me about takeoffs and landings. Okay. So takeoffs and landings, the first Riley album, like the self-titled slash the initial friend EP, it's technically their first album, but like takeoffs and landings is really considered their debut. And they recorded it at home in L. L.A. And then it was later released on a barsook. Yeah. So we actually, you know, talking about like who was around at that time,

Death Cat for Cutie, who were a big Barsook band. And I feel like maybe we'll get into like the Jenny Lewis, Ben Gibbard, like they were friends. Oh, we will in this Goddy apartment complex. You better believe it. Anyways, takeoffs and landings is already like, again, it is home produced, but they They sound like so tight on this album that they're already, I think a lot of people, when they think of Riloh Kiley, they think of Jenny Lewis and they think of her voice and they think of her lyrics. But like, Rilkele Kiley are a really good band. And I don't, you mean music really like tight music? They sound tight.

And yeah, for me, I used to always get this album confused because the artwork on it is like of the airplane seats and it isn't at all similar to like a death cab album cover. something about airplanes, yes. So takeoffs and landings came out in 2001 and a lot of it is like airplane flight themed and like 9-11 and like Wilco, a Yankee Hotel Fox Trot. Sure. What was in the air pre-9-11 that people were thinking so much about airplanes? People were really into trains, planes, birds, putting a bird on it. It brings us all back to tweet. Takeoffs and Landings, great album. It's not my favorite of their albums. if I was ranking them, you'd be like third. Okay.

I liked takeoffs and landings. Okay, the truth is, I liked pictures of success. My notes say, okay, this slaps. Goddamn gorgeous, beautiful song. This is actually where I wrote the I Am at Space Land in the smoking room. This is more that sound for me of like, I will be eating fries at the bright spot after wasted. This is that time.

Should we hear that song to sort of just set the vibe, set the mood? Yeah, yeah, let's do it. This is Pictures of Success. That was Pictures of Success, a goddamn gorgeous, beautiful song, dittalie do core. So much going on in this song, I am surprised. It's a very complex song. Like a one minute of intro. Yeah, so that's what I think, like, they're really taking their time on this album.

Taking their time, getting the vocal. And, yeah, I think that can sometimes not pay off. And I mean, if the band isn't good, then it's like not great. But they're really good. Right, right. Totally. Opening bit is really intricate, I think. I mean, I'm not a guitar player, but I'd call it intricate.

It's definitely interesting. It's gorgeous. Yeah. The bridge, babe. When you're like, okay, what if we just do this, like, quick bridge, ready to go, ready to go, 500 times? And then the outro? Yeah.

That's what I was about to say. having like a seven-minute song on your debut album, like that's pretty bold, but that you're self-releasing, like Riley-Chaly weren't playing around ever. That's so good. Mexico can fucking wait, babe, is what I'm saying. Lindsay Zollads wrote something about this song

in her Pretty When You Cry essay, which I think is ostensibly. Yeah, it's so good on the old pitchwork. I think it's ostensibly about Lana Del Rey, but there's a lot about Riley in it. She said, it is a song about lying around the house, waiting on an inattentive boyfriend, daydreaming about dying or else moving west. It's a song about being so terrified by the expectations the world has set for you

that you wish you could run to a place where nobody has ever heard your name. gorgeous. Lindsay's piece, I refer to it often in my head because I think that was a really great era of music writing from people like Lindsay and like Carrie Batten and Jen Pally. Shout out of Jen Polly. Who does not listen to this program? But specifically, I think Lindsay was talking about how how huge it was to hear. I think she says something along the lines of like a woman singing about being sad.

Just like straightforward. And yeah, the song is like morose and it's melancholy. It's like language. She's laying around the house. The bills are coming in. She's like staring down adulthood. And you know, it's but I think the line that really that people really, really relate to in the song is the like, I'm a modern girl, but I fold and have so easily when I put myself in the picture of success.

And I feel like I have so many different thoughts about that lyric. And I think it changes as I've gotten older. I was curious, like what your immediate thoughts were with that. Unfortunately, I'm still 14 years old. So for me, it all just really resonates. Now, yeah, I mean, I didn't ever hear it before. Like I said, like a year ago. So it's all new to me.

But I found it very relatable. I mean, still, even though things have changed, like, this idea of, like, the crushing expectations of the world and also, like, wishing you could just die. And not in a suey way, but in a, like, man, like, the only way I can see to be free of this, like, pressure that, you know, may or may not be self-imposed. I mean, we could argue if we're going to get you me. on it and everything is kind of self-imposed. But like I can't see any way out besides, you know, when you're dead, it must be nice to finish. You're just done. Yeah. That sounds great. Definitely relate. Big relate. Big mood. I love the line, but the bills keep changing colors because that to me is like peak Jenny Lewis sharpness, you know, where it's like she's talking about money and pressure,

you know, and like there's the line. I mean, I'd like some more spare time. Drag me. straight to fucking hell, babe. Break me over the goddamn coals to this day. Me begging, please put a little more spare time in my hand. To think about how she has experienced that level of pressure and also that level of financial responsibility since she could probably remember. Thinking of the song in that context.

But anyway, sorry, back to the... No, no, I think that is especially true. It's not just some random person singing about money. It's like someone who has seen a fair amount. money at a young age. Yeah. And from what I read here and there, I mean, there's like an insane LA Times article about how she like owned three houses when she was 16.

But then there's also like another article later like mid Riloh Kylie where they keep talking about how she has an $800 a month. Yeah. Silver Lake apartment. I think, do you remember this? I don't know if that's the spin article too, but I also read that. Is that like a lot? I don't know.

And no. And even in 2007, that wasn't that much money. I mean, it was like normal. But for someone that you would expect to have a lot of money, considering you had a super long career prior to becoming an indie artist, and then Riloh Kiley was like semi-successful by that 2007, right? I mean, I think they were already on a major label, or at least like tangentially on a major label.

They had like been on the billboard charts. Like they were definitely a legitimate band. I just struck me because I was like, oh, maybe she's just like kind of kept this frugal mentality. of like, well, I have to, I have to be in charge of my money. I always have to be in charge. There's no safety net. Like, I don't know. That was me projecting maybe, but like the bills are changing colors is such a smart way of

saying they're unpaid, right? Because that's what happens when you don't pay your bills. They start changing colors. They come and think and then it's red. And, you know, I really, I really just appreciated the wit of that line. And also, like, yeah, the level of detail in that, like, I don't know, there's probably a billion ways to say the bills are coming in. And yet, like, she chose that one.

Like, it's very poetic. To go back to that lyric, I fold in half so easily. Like, that's such a good line. I'm sure many a live journal post. Honestly, shout out Bethany Costantina, whose live journal name was Best Shoes on. That's incredible. Wow.

Yeah. See, I feel like, you know, I have a relationship with Riloh-Kiley, but I'm not from California. And I think the California Rilohy Lai Lai Laii fans are. I think that's allowed. Yeah. Right. They're like even they're even more. Definitely. Definitely. If you want. Yeah. So that song concludes for this great line like they say California is a recipe for a black hole and I say I've got my best shoes on. I'm ready to go. And that's like, ah, that's such a good line. Also a black hole. A black hole is not inherently

negative. It's just like kind of the unknown. That's true. I always wondered if that was a reference to earthquakes. I would love to read an essay about like Rilke Pyley and the environment because I think like there's a lot of anxiety in their music and, uh, there's a lot of references to earthquakes and just like land, like space oceans, like the melting earth. Like and I think, yeah, like Jenny Lewis, this is her second career. Like she's seen some ugly things. She has like a different perspective than a lot of people her age. But I think it's really great that that line, yeah, like she's got her best shoes on. She's ready to go. I'm going to do a spoiler alert here. This is my favorite song of Riloh, Kiley period throughout the entire time that we know the rest of this episode. Not to say that

there's not other songs I like, but this is this is the one I really, really, really, really, really. Yeah. Really loved it. And I hear a lot of as a California native, I like, can almost make the parallel of like there's a lot of space in the song right like we talked about like you take they took their time they literally take their time in the song to as much time as they want and to me that's such like an la feeling like it has this feeling of i said this on another show and i'm really sorry to say it again but it's like a little viscous yeah which is like a feeling that's a very cal to me a very california in la feeling where it's like endless open space with strict malls and it's just like hot and slow, you know? No, E. Babence. But yes, Eavabvats. I was like, dang, I definitely can't say that like Jenny Lewis is like the Joan Diddy enough, like indie rock because that's a stupid statement. But like, yeah, that image of California of like sprawling and there's not a lot going on sometimes. Yeah, Jenny Lewis does that really well. Yeah. What else about this album do you love enough to make it your third favorite? Well, I love Science versus Romance is a great song.

They're laying out like the Rilokyley thematic world here. And like Jenny Lewis is like the things on her mind that she'll continue to explore across their whole discography. Like science versus romance has another like really great intro. There's a lot of anxiety in it and talking about death. And she says like, I used to think if I could realize I'd die, then I'd be a lot nicer. which is a really, like, that's a great line. She needed to know about her own mortality and she didn't yet. Probably does now.

Probably. Yes. Maybe. Just judging that she's a couple of years older than me and I sure know about mine. Okay. It's here. It's knocking on the door. Hello. Ring ring, ring. Hello. It's me. Or mortality, please answer. What feelings, if any, do you have about Blake singing made songs, which is still happening a lot? You're already like, well,

We'll get to this later. I did throw one Blake song onto my playlist because I felt like I had to give the guy a bone. No hate to Blake. No hate to Blake. But we're choosing top-right. Like, Kylie's songs, like the ones Jenny's things on are the best, in my opinion. Live in your truth, babe. Yeah, I think his songs are good. They're definitely, I mean, Jenny Lewis's voice. I'm doing a lot of sighing right now. So I'm like talking about. So much deep size. Let me ask you a quick question. I'll be honest. This is not a criticism. anyway. I think there's certain things that truly just boil down to taste, right? Yeah. For me, Jenny Lewis's singing voice, particularly in these first two records, is not my favorite thing in the world. It's just not. It doesn't resonate with me that vocal quality because it is very twee and it's very forward produced. Yeah. Like on the mix and it's, it reminds me like how Drew Barrymore talks out of the side of her mouth, you know what I'm saying? It all comes back to Drew again. That's not a musical term, but like, it has the same vibe to me. For you, you love her voice. You love her singing voice. Yeah. And also, I mean, I like tweet things. So like guilty as charged. You're like Peter Pancaller, you say, have a whole fucking closet of them, babe, which one do you want to borrow? Exactly. Oh, God, literally. But anyways, I think a lot of people had and still have issues with Jenny Lewis's like, quote unquote, like whisper singing. And I think she does a lot of that on this album specifically. and on the next one too.

But like it is this interesting thing that's not quite like talk singing, but she definitely like explores her vocal range more, I would say on like some of the later albums. A hundred percent. I mean, her singing evolves a lot over the course of the albums. And it's really cool to see. And I'm sure it was partly a stylistic choice in the beginning.

But it seems like it's also like something to do with confidence, maybe something to do with like owning. that space of like taking up the singing space. And then maybe just something to do with your voice gets better over time. You know, a lot of, like, it gets fuller, you get older. I also wonder if that's at all related to like her later writing and singing her own songs instead of like the co-written songs also because she did have this good quote in Jen Pelley's pitchfork profile of Jenny Lewis where she said something to the effect

of like, she said I'm not fully myself when I'm co-writing. Oh, that makes a lot of sense. I hadn't like absorbed that quote the first handful of times I read the piece. Those of you who hate group project, hive, stand up. That's me. I'm there. I totally understand. I have one question for you and then I want to talk about that pitchwork review that we mentioned.

Oh, yeah. Oh, gosh, we haven't gotten into that yet. How old were you when you found Riloh, Kylie? I was probably a freshman in high school. So about 14, 13, 14. Yeah, that would have been in like 2017. 2008. So like actually like around the time they broke up. But is there something about the girlishness of her singing voice that spoke to you because you were a young girl in high school. Like when I

started high school, I like didn't really have a lot of friends. And it was like a really difficult time. And when I finally did find a group of friends, they all had like incredible music taste. And one of them, we traded iPods. And she like put all her music on my iPod. And I still have it on my iTunes this day. It wasn't like full albums, but it was like the, you know, the hits. Right. And none of the songs on this album were on that. Not even pictures of success, a goddamn gorgeous, beautiful song. Yeah, it was definitely like stuff off like more adventurous. But yeah, I think so. Like, so at that point, you know, the other things that she was putting on my iPod, shout out, Anna Jeter. She's in a great band called Ancient Pools. Very proud of her. Go look up Ancient Pools on the internet.

Yeah, but like modest mouse, great example. Like I had like modest mouse CDs and, you know, Sufian and animal collective. That's also like why I should be put to death because like there's no reason for me to like Isaac Brock's singing voice. If we're talking about off-putting singing voices, but I do. So again, it's just a taste thing. And maybe it's my own internalized misogyny. And we can get into that with my therapist later off-mic. but yeah, I've never found her voice off putting, I think, because it was just like, wow,

here's this like female, female, God, here's this woman. Female, female. Yeah, singing, and that was like really cool. Why is female the funniest word? It's so, like, in cell, like, ah, the female. Sorry, Jenny Lewis. But I feel like Riloh Kiley were really, like, the only female fronted band that, at that point was like in my realm.

Do you think this has anything to do with like the, I'm really stretching right now. I'm like fully like giving a college lecture. But the waves of feminism, it did just really, I mean, I made the joke about the internalized misogyny, but I do wonder if it's because my particular wave

of feminism and growing up and that was more like, you need to be like a guy. Mm-hmm. In some ways to be taking serious. You know, and like Courtney Love, who I worshipped, you know, and like, Hole was such an important band for me. She was wearing the Peter Pan collar and the baby doll dresses, but she was snarling in your face. And, like, there was such a masculine energy to everything and the way she's saying. Even though she was wearing these baby dollars, it was still grunge.

Everything was ripped up. It was dirty. Like, whatever. Yeah, the kindergarten. I really, that really resonated with me. And I think maybe, like, that was so deeply ingrained in me that things that were tweed. are so overtly feminine, I couldn't deal with it. I was just like, I don't know what to do with this, you know? And I wonder if because later on, that became more of a different feminism, right?

To like be overtly feminine was owning your femininity and without it being anything less than. I think this makes sense, especially, I mean, I wrote a piece on Tweet and TikTok and obviously the internet, say, around 2007, from 2007 to like 2011 to 2014, like, okay, I guess that's like a seven-year period. But there are levels to like the Tui, like femininity embrace thing that is really, that can be really painful. In what way? Painful. Like how it's painful for me. Yeah. Yeah. But also like, like, like, cringy, like, I don't want to say adult baby because like I dress I dress like a baby. But again, what, I guess like what's wrong with that, right? Like, what's wrong with being baby? What is wrong with being baby? The question I ask myself often. But no, I mean, I think people have really strong,

people have strong reactions to every aspect of like femininity, whether it's angry and aggressive and like whole or if it's... It's such a good point. None of it is a comfortable. Yeah, or if it's soft and delicate, which is not how I would describe Riloh-Kiley, but like certainly other stuff. Like, people are always going to be like, that's too much of whatever it is.

That's too much girl. Yeah, too much girl. Thank you. That's too much female, if you will. That's a really good point. I just keep thinking, like, but now how we're at Lana Del Rey, right? Yeah. Who somehow is like an interesting conclusion to what we've been dealing with and talking about.

Like, she's just full like, I'm baby. you know. Yeah. But like I'm dark baby. People have so many opinions on Lana and so there are so many different eras of Lana problematic. I love Lana Del Rey. I do too. I do too. Somehow I can't quit her. I can't quit. Yeah. So that piece that we talked about earlier that Lindsay wrote like pretty while you cry was about Riloh Kiley and like sadness. It was like the peak like when like sad girl was like just starting on the internet and she was talking about Lana in that. sense. There's so much to talk about in terms of like Lana and like performance of like girl. Performance of femininity. Okay. So this actually brings us back to like maybe it brings us back to

Frug. Or as some people say, the frog. These like these contradictions of like, yeah, it is in frog when she says like she likes to play the victim. There's power in being baby. So true, babe. It's not necessarily. It's not necessarily a sign of of weakness. It's just like what people associate with like softness of like fragility. Producer Dylan has made a really excellent point where she says it is really interesting how male rock stars are not segmented in the same way. Like they aren't sort of shoved into archetypes. No one's like, well, creed guy is this thing. And fucking Gavin Rosdale is this one thing. And I don't know why those are the only two people I can think of. There are so many men that play rock and roll music

that are different than that. But those are the two that came to my mind. But you know what I'm saying. I do. And I think we have reached, it's interesting because I mean, I know Dylan was like involved with like rookie magazine and I feel like she was baby. She was baby around like Tumblr rookie. Like I think that's that's kind of like when like the sad girl stuff like started. And I think however many years, I guess it really depends on when you start the date of the sad girl. But at any rate, we've reached like... When did the clock start on town, girl? We'll never know.

We've reached, like, overflow, like, everyone's a sad girl now. And I personally find it, like, really annoying that that has become, like, how we categorize women who write slightly emotional music, I guess. Like, I think there's a huge range in, like, a lot of the female songwriters that are, are, labeled with that like Mitzki and soccer mommy and Phoebe Bridgers and like you know all that sort of thing. So it's yeah. I mean I guess like men Connor Oberst definitely was like. Sad boy. People didn't like him because of his emotional side, which you know, maybe this is where we get into.

Is it because he sounds like he's crying while he's saying? At the same time. He's doing them both at the same time. I did have a topic that I wanted to discuss with you, which is the never-ending, because I touched on this a little bit in my review, but like the R. R. R. R. R. Riley-Kiley Emo question. Oh, yeah. Great. I have this on my dog, too. That's a really good question. Does that website not exist anymore? Wait. Do you remember the website that was like, is this band emo? And you can just like put in a band name and it would like tell you if it was email. I don't think it exists anymore. I haven't thought about that. in a really long time.

Producer Dylan has made her fucking, she has drawn a goddamn line in the sand. She says, I think no. I would agree with that. Okay. Oh, you also say no. Let's ask the website. Yeah, actually.

Is this band emo? Riloh Kylie is not an emo band. Riloh Kylie is indie period. Okay. It's indie period. Why do you guys say that they're not emo? I was never like a really big emo fan and I know people like, God, we're on like the fifth wave of emo now.

I don't really, I don't follow it that closely. I think a lot of music I like tends to kind of fall like adjacent to that because it's, because it's intelligent and I'm an intelligent person. No, no, I think like, you know, the kind of like proximity to like pop punk. But the reason I wanted to ask this question now is that like so around this time like after takeoffs and landings, Rilohke Lerilie fell in with like the Saddle Creek crew who like Connor Oberst, emo poster boy. And I think that is why they have been associated with emo for so long is like their music like is like emotionally candid and it can be sad and it can be heavy. But it's also like

poppy and like there's a lot of like country and like folk. And I think it kind of goes back to like those singer-songwriter's records that like her mom really loved Jenny Lewis's mom. I don't know if people really knew what to do with Rilohkely. I think you're right. I think there's, There's so much textural genre reference in Riloh-Kiley that maybe doesn't exist in more straight-up emo bands. Yeah. And so maybe that is sort of the distinction. They're, yeah.

I mean, like, Riloh-Kiley is not Sunny Day real estate. Like maybe I'd put them on a playlist together, but like, you know, I think they're very different. And I think especially considering like where Riloh-Kiley went with. their sound over their next few albums is very, it's very bombastic. It's very big. Not to say that emo can't be big, but it's Jenny Lewis's emphasis on like survival kind of, again, to go back to that, like always comes through. Right. Even when things are bleak, like there is a little bit of optimism there. She's said that there's always hope. Yeah. Didn't she say that? She starts with despair and like writes towards hope or something. It would make sense. I'm

butchering that. But I'm pretty sure I read her say that. I can't wait to get the letters from the R-Dash email. Yeah, I'm like, oh, gosh. Okay. Well, speaking of people not knowing what to do with Riloh-Kiley, why don't we talk about this pitchwork review? Oh, yes, yes. I guess to protect the person, the writer's name is remembered.

It is? Oh, that's interesting. That's recent. Prudson-Den says a lot of the archived ones don't have the names on it, so I don't think they were doing it to hide the person. But we'll call them hapless reviewer. Yeah, that's a good one. Tell me about this review.

We'll just start off. It's a 4.0, which is not a good. It's not a 4. No. For those of you not familiar with the pitchfork rating system. Yeah, it's not a 4 out of 5. It's a 4 out of 10. So this was, this reviews from like what, 2002?

Yeah, January 22nd, 2002. And I think the pitchfork of 2002 is very different from the pitchfork of now in so many ways, but especially in the like actual format of reviews. like people did a lot of experimenting. Yeah, we like to say it was it was the Wild West. So yeah, as mentioned earlier, this is written as like a fake screenplay

by hapless reviewer, a female, about each 26. And a lot of the reviews, like very focused on the whole, like, they were played on Dawson's Creek thing. Like, I feel like sell out. The idea of like selling out was very different in 2002

than it is now. Also, like, I don't know, music supervision, very different. But producer Dylan says this was peak music supervision. Oh, yeah, definitely. They were like, you actually are going to play live at the bar at the OSC. So come on down. This reviewer says Rilkeye is kind of a new band and all, but this sounds really amateurish.

They say Blake Senate sounds a lot like Elliot Smith, but not as good. Still, it's an improvement over the girl. I don't know about Blake Senate sounding like Elliot Smith. Yeah, that's not really what I would. I guess it's a vast generalization. But yeah, this review is like really dismissive. And I think all of our Riloh-Kiley reviews are really dismissive until maybe Carrie Batten reviewed like their demos and like archives reissue in 2013. And then not to toot my own horn, but my review. Your review is great. Toot-toot. Toot. We did a piece recently where we each like picked an album to rescore. And the obvious one to me was like a Riloh-Kiley one because. the scores are so low. And I don't think that speaks to the quality, or like the quality certainly deserves a higher score,

but also like the love people have for those albums, I think. Like, I don't know, they deserve it to be highly acclaimed. So the initial draft I filed for my blurb of like a re-evaluation of takeoffs and landings was really, really mean about this review. The hapless review. And I was told that was not the format of the piece, so I had to tone it down. But yeah, I think this review is like a blight. It's a huge blight.

Just for context, by the way, the bright eyes album that came out in 2002 got a 7.7. Yeah. So, I mean, I guess the other thing I didn't say is that, like, pitchfork at the time was pretty dismissive of women, to put it lightly, I would say. I forget which Liz Phair album, it is that we were like really awful. Did we give it like a... The zero point zero? Yeah. It was her self-titled album, the one where she went pop with Black, and I.

A goddamn gorgeous, beautiful song. Yeah. So it's very funny to me, well, if it's not funny, it's like upsetting that I think for like a lot of people on staff, Rilou Kylie is like a really fundamental band to them. And it makes me upset that they never got that respect that like someone like Connor Oberst did. Kind of important to point out that in 2012. to, and I say this with love, not that many people gave a fuck about it work. It was not the kingmaker that it became later.

It was a music blog. And there was a hundred of them. There was like tofu hut. And like I can, I don't even remember half of the name. There was literally a hundred of them. It's probably why doing the research for this was like low key easier because they're all defunct now.

And those, a lot of those music blogs loved Riloh-Kiley. And that's, and also Rialo Kiley was really spread. again, I don't know this firsthand, but was spread through the live journal community. You know, like it was a word of mouth band that people would be like, you have to hear this. Kind of like your friend did for you, right? But like in real time, like people making each other tapes and CDs and like emailing songs.

And, you know, it was a very, very like grassrootsy kind of spread of their music through the internet. Yeah, definitely. And the abundance of blogs definitely explains why, like, Pitchfork did not take itself very professionally and would publish a review set like a screenplay. It was a fun time. Yeah. We were, we were doing, we were a tremendous. Like, for all the love Jenny Lewis was getting from like listeners and fans, like,

she's basically immediately like sexualized and like objectified. And there's like this Robert Criscow review. I forget of what album it might be more adventurous, but he says like Lewis is such a wet dream for indie boys. And I feel like that's like how she was. was perceived for really, like, I don't even want to say like a long time and like I wasn't a fan at that point, but like that was like a really big thing. Like, oh, she can like hang with the boys like sort of mentality. Right. I mean, not to defend the dean, but maybe a little. I get what he's saying. Like it's like maybe 10% of that is like a literal sexual, you know,

look thing. But like, I think that he was paying her a compliment by being like, oh, like, this is like the coolest girl ever. And like they're going to lose. you know, for indie boys, like, she's like super cool and can play and write cool songs and like, you know, but you're right and hang with the boys because that is like a manic pixie dream girl, uh, explodes. Yeah, it's like a double-sided. She eats nachos. Can you even believe it?

Whoa. She loves sport. Well, do you want to play another song off this album? I think we can move on to the execution of all things if that's. Before we get to execution of all things, I will say, this is not a. review that came out at the time, but I think it was in a review for the execution of all things. But Kalefah Sana in the New York Times in 2002, so I was talking about the next album, but he of Take Offs and Landing said, the music was quiet and sketchy, and the singer sometimes

sounded tentative or even precious. But there was also an appealing undercurrent of bitterness. The group style was all sweetness and blight, which I thought was a really astute summing up of that. Did you say sweetness and blight? Blight, yeah. Yeah, I would agree. If you had said light, I'd be like, huh, but blight, yes.

Could be some blight. We don't know. No, it doesn't. It doesn't. Blight. And yeah, I think like a lot of what, okay, this is maybe a stretch, but like a lot of the crying on the dance floor, like pop, that peril and pop, like, that's kind of like Rilohy's Bread and Butter. Like, really sad or like emotionally heavy or emotionally charged songs that are also like really good rock. pop songs. Can you give me another example of an artist that's like that? Did I already say Robin?

No, that's a great. It's so weird that you said that and I'm telling you, I'm a psychic moment. It's happened a few times in the show. In my mind, I was like, this is dancing on my own. That's the immediate what I thought of. Yeah, like obviously they're very different. But when we were playing pictures of success earlier, we're both kind of like, you know, jamming out a little bit, swaying and thinking existential thoughts probably. That's one of my favorite genres of music that you can but bob to and also be real sad, which is why I like kid A by radio so much. That's a little more extreme.

And Robin dancing on my own because I like to just like dance it out, but then like cry dancing like you said and it's like, oh, it's so good. Yeah, I think people feel very comforted. by Riloh-Kiley, just like in the admission of like some things that are lonely or like difficult to talk about. Having those things to be verbalized. It's like really important. Pictures of success is a great song to drive your car too while you cry. I'm just going to let you guys know, California people that drive cars. Okay. So they get hooked up with Saddle Creek because they met Tim Casher from cursive at a show in San Francisco, right? And according to

to Jenny Lewis, she said that they were headed to Iowa for a gig, and he invited them to join their caravan as they traveled across country. This is when I learned that they were already huge bright ice fans because they really liked fevers and mirrors. Great problem. So the owner of Saddle Creek, Rob Nensel said that the first time he saw Riley Kyle play, it just seemed like she was someone who was going to be around for a while. She reminded me of a cat power or a Liz Phair type of figure, very attention demanding. He could have said. captivating, but attention demanding is fine, too. I think it's important this Saddle Creek moment for many reasons, right? And maybe not the least of all being a legitimizing factor. What do you

think about that? Yeah, 100% agree. I mean, I think to the point that we were talking about earlier, they maybe didn't really have like a scene in L.A. at that point. And I think they really found their people in Saddle Creek. And it makes so much sense to me that they would release albums with Saddle Creek can work very closely with the label because they're doing very similar things. They're writing smart, emotional songs that are also really good. Yeah. It's like L.A. goes to Nebraska kind of thing. There's some piece where Jenny Lewis talks about like how like L.A. was just people

trying to find fame and success and get signed to major labels and there was no scene. And I kind of like don't know if that's totally true. I do, I mean, the smell opened in 1998, for example. You know, like there was definitely some scene. If you come at it from a showbiz kid place, of course, it's a different thing. And like, you know, whether or not they were accepted by the DIY community or whether or not they even knew about the DIY community or tried to be part of it, we don't know. But they found maybe that community in Omaha is the point of the story. One of the songs that was put on my iPod in high school was duet between Jenny Lewis and Connor Oberst.

It was like the same time that I learned about bright eyes. So all these people are like bunched in together in my head. Naturally, I had no idea that they were actually working together at this point until later. Were you a cursive gal? Never lying in this bird again. Oh, Christ. I wasn't actually, which is interesting because, like, my friends at the time were. But I was never, I don't know.

I'll tell you what, 2002, things have changed, babe, okay? Things have changed. Interpol, turn on the bright lights, has come up. The Decembrists. Yes. That's right. Old-timey outfits. We do have a mom.

Monocle. Wales. There's top hats. Mustaches. Absolutely whales. Pretty soon every band is going to be named after a bear or a wolf or a fox. God, true. Or Pedro the Lion. Broken social scene has entered the chat. I'm painting you a picture. Like, this is what's going on. Yeah. Iron and wine, babe. Iron and wine. And it was a great time to be in high school. Like all these bands were very formative for me in a way that I'm grateful for, I guess, in retrospect, because a lot of it holds up. I'm an

unapologetic fan of some Decemberous music. You love Regina Spector. I, oh my God. Yes, another artist called it from two miles away. I was dismissed by a pitchfork. Yes, I did love Regina Spector, and she was another person who was put on my iPod. Like, I used to call Regina Specter, like Regina, and my high school boyfriend just thought that was like the worst thing ever. Like, she's not your friend. Babe, I'm listening to Regina. Can you keep her down? Like, I'm listening to Jenny. Please leave me alone. Can you put the Jenny on in the car?

Okay, the execution of all things. October 2002, produced by Mike Mogus. He had engineered and produced and honestly performed in many of the Saddle Creek bands, including Bright Eyes, the faint. Cursive, Tilly in the Wall. Tilly in the Wall. Tilly on the Wall is great. So that's probably why members of Curseve, play on this album, along with some other Saddle Creek musicians. Tell me about the execution

of all things. Is this widely believed to be the best Riley-Ciley album or the most beloved? That's controversial. This is just me talking to three people. So my sample size is skewed and small. Okay. Yeah, actually, yeah. I think, I think this is like their most beloved album. Now that I think about it. I mean, more adventurous is amazing, but there's some real hits. And I think the songs that are really important to people that are on this album are like really, really important and like huge. So there sounds like really expanded with this album mostly thanks to I think Mike Mogus. He really, like what you were saying earlier about some of the things you didn't really like about Jenny Lewis's voice. I think that changed probably a lot with this album and like.

Yeah, I have that in my notes. Yeah, it all got bigger and closer and like fuller. Yeah, totally. I loved that about this album. They take their time. They're indulging in some things, but there's this interesting thread through the album that's like some songs are bookended by like snippets of a song that like when piece together kind of like are about Jenny Lewis's parents divorce and it's like this like haunted music box like in an attic vibe like haunted doll. Totally.

So that's definitely interesting. Like that's weird. How fun. While I didn't particularly love how it sounded, because Haunted Doll is not my favorite genre, I thought it was very cool as a mechanism, like as a device. Yeah. Again, to your point, like, of Jenny Lewis sort of coming out as a fully formed artist, like I feel like this is a good indication of that too, right?

It's like you're ostensibly on your third album, but the first two could be just counted as one when you were just didn't know what you're doing. Yeah. And you're already written or co-written a song as complicated. as pictures of success. And then on this album, you're like weaving a narrative literally with music throughout the album. That's very cool and very like high level stuff, I think, to be doing when you're what, 25 years old or whatever. Yeah, definitely. I mean, most people probably never hit the level that they're at with this album, like musicians and stuff. But important to note that

Jenny and Blake had broken up by this point. Was that the 9-11 of Rilohle-Kiley fans? No, I feel like the 9-11 of Rilkeye-Kiley fans is when they actually just broke up. Right. But yeah, this album is full of bangers. And should we talk about the first one that I picked, The Good That Won't Come Out? Yes, let's talk about it. I really like that song. Yeah, should we play it first?

Let's play it and then we'll talk about it. This is The Good That Won't Come Out. That was The Good That Won't Come Out. Tell me why you love this song. Yeah, first of all, incredible opener. Like, definitely leading with a strong foot. on this album. I have that in my notes too. Yeah, they do that a lot, right? Yeah, silver lining is an opener. Yeah, the opener of more adventurous. I did not pick, but it was,

that was a hard, a hard one to cut because it's a great song. But yeah, so this song begins, you know, Jenny Lewis, a self-professed, like, modern girl, begins with her and her friends. It was a very modern scene for 2001, 2002, like, she's hanging out with her friends and they're talking about how the earth is disappearing and melting and who can relate, who can relate. Climate change group chat, if you will. Everything's going to turn to dust. And the song is like her voice, it sounds distant. She kind of sounds like she's.

There's like an effect put on it. Yeah, it's like soft. 2002-ass vocal effect, I will say. Yeah. And I think my favorite part of this song is definitely like that part when she's saying, I do this thing where I think I'm real sick, but I won't go to the doctor to find out about it because they make you stay real still in a real small space as they chart up your insides and put them on display. They'd see all of it, all of me, all of it. And that's like when the double track vocals start coming out.

And it still has that effect, but it's even like it gives it a lot of depth, I guess. But I love that that line because, you know, I think on one level you could think about it as like in terms of like a medical thing, like hypochondria, like literally not wanting to go to the doctor. and get checked out. But I think it's probably more likely. It's about, you know, not trusting the people around you or yourself, like, to be, to be vulnerable. Like, what an interesting way to put that. It's interesting that Jenny Lewis hasn't, like, written a book because I would read that book.

Yeah. No, she has such a way with words, for sure. Producer Dillon can corroborate that I message her while the song was playing. I love that. That's my favorite verse as well. Yeah. I think it's, you know, it's not like insanely clever, but it is a cool way to, talk about vulnerability.

Like even the like double thing of like not overtly talking about vulnerability and hiding it behind a metaphor about going to the doctor is like another layer of hiding. I hope they don't see me. I hope they don't see the ugly parts of me. Like it's very effective. And then the line that comes later in the song like

you say I choose sadness but it has never once chosen me like maybe you're right. Her lyrics are so they can be very poetic and verbose but they can also be so casual in terms of like just a little like throwaway acknowledgement. But that line is really interesting on like a bigger picture level, like thinking about depression and like mental illness and like whether people choose to be depressed.

Like the other person is essentially like shaming the narrator for their depression. And like of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That wouldn't want to make someone open up and show their insides to anyone. which I think is why people appreciate like, again, I said brave earlier, but like the bravery of

Jenny Lewis like doing that in songs like this. Absolutely. Even if it's in a little bit of a metaphorical way. Yeah. And it's nice that she sort of like balances these metaphors with like some really overt lyrics that are like, for example, like I think I'll go out and embarrass myself by getting drunk and falling down on the street. Like that's not a metaphor, you know?

And like, and it's an ugly thing. to put out there. But it's like, that's what makes it so striking and compelling, right? Like, she's just like, it's kind of like, would you fuck me? I'd fuck me. You know, like, it's, it's sort of balancing those like more surreal metaphors with these like just straight talk of things that are, I don't know, like visceral. No, it's funny because I was also thinking of Glendora when you were talking about that before you said it. Because yeah, I think again, like, she has been doing this kind of thing consistently since the start. And it's really exciting if you're going through it chronologically, through Ryla Kiley's music to see how it grows and evolves into something more powerful. I will say that song does

get a little heavy on the effects by the end. But again, it was 2002 and we can forgive it. Yeah. Shout out to Mike Mogus. He's playing like the pedal steel on that song. And they also have a lot more like session players like on this. There's tons on here. Yeah. So there's like strings and there's all sorts of things happening. Very, what year did Arcade Fire's funeral come out? 2004. Yeah.

Oh, interesting. 2004. Okay. I like the, she's not telling anyone what to do with themselves in these songs, but there is like, the song ends with like a little bit of an urgency to communicate. It goes full circle from like the beginning of the song where they're talking about like the earth melting to her essentially saying. saying like she needs to communicate before she like turns to dust before her mouth like crumbles.

Right. And she's standing on the frozen lake, right? It's going to melt. Yeah. Yeah. That's the implication. And that's very, it's very clever. Yeah. That full circle moment. A lot is happening in all these songs on this album specifically. You also had a better son slash daughter on your playlist. Yes. Yes. Should we hear that song and then talk a bit about it? Yeah, I think so. So that's an important Riloha Kylie song, right? Definitely. Okay. This is a better son slash daughter. That was a better son slash daughter. What was the obsession with marching bands in the mid-2000s? I must know. It is a good question. I feel like, I don't know if it all dates back, but the thing that

immediately comes into my head was the like Illinois tour with Sufion and the big band and they're all wearing like outfits. I don't know. Everyone loved a spectacle. It's just like this is. This pre-Black Parade, but it's giving, it's giving Black Parade as a producer-dalen, Black Parade for Girls. Oh, man. Wow, I love that. That's a really good way to frame it. That song is not for me, but interesting. Tell me why you love it. Okay. I might be the marching band thing. If I had never heard that song, and in 2022, I listened to it for the first time, I don't know what I'd think of it. But, right, I think that is probably my, my, my, my, favorite Riloh-Kiley's song, I think, of all time. I think it's the one that, like, has,

has the most, like, personal history or, like, nostalgia for me. But I also just never cease to be, like, kind of blown away by it and, like, blown away by how the song progresses and, like, blown away by the songwriting. I think, like, if Riloh Kiley hadn't made another album after this, they would have ended on a really high note. Right. The lyrics are really incredible. I will say that. They're like, they're so just like striking. Yeah, I think this is one of those songs that really, there's sometimes when you know, you're listening to a song and you're just like, dang, how do they do that? Like, how do they come up with this stuff? Like, it's really, it's really beautiful. But yeah, so it begins like kind of faint and then it grows into this huge, like,

marching band thing. And she, Jenny Lewis like really leans into her full voice, like, sometimes when you're on, you're really fucking on. Like, there's a lot of really good enunciation on this song. I liked that a lot too. Or a real good friend. Like, yes, Jenny Lewis, actress. Like, she's got that. She's a Fespian.

Yeah, like, obviously there are lots of great songwriters and vocalists who are maybe not theater or movie kids. But, like, I do wonder about that. For sure, in general. I mean, do you think that there's some theatricality in Riloha Kiley's music? Because I hear that from the beginning. Yeah. And I think that is also. kind of what has made them emo adjacent, I would say. The MCR comparison, like, yeah.

As I call them punk for theater kids. Yeah. Oh, man. God, that's so true. I know. This song is really about, like, survival. And it starts off. She's, like, literally, like, in bed.

You know, there's, like, familial drama happening. And she's, like, hiding away. And then it just, like, shifts immediately. and it just goes into this huge big anthemic song and she is pumping herself up well actually it shifts from first person to second person so she's like pumping up like the you

like you're going to like talking to herself in the mirror or something yeah and I think that's why saying that this is my favorite Rilochiley song is not like a controversial thing like this is so many people's favorite Rilok Kylie song for a big like you can get through this hard times will pass that sort of thing but what I like about the song is that it's not like instructive. It's more of like a mantra, which I think is really beautiful.

And like for me, I remember like distinctly like singing this song, driving in a car with like my best friends in high school. Probably a lot of people have a very similar association with this song because it's a great sing-along song. It's really fun. Yeah. And it ends with this like great. Your ship may be coming in your week, but not giving in. Like that's really a nice little advice, I guess. Nice little, a nice little lyrical moment. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely an interesting song. Like, that marching band thing does give it this like kind of sense of urgency.

And it's, it doesn't have the release of choruses, which I think is obviously by design. Yeah. So it's just building and building a verse upon verse. Yeah. So I do like appreciate what's being done there with the songwriting. I think it's very cool. I've always found it very funny, like the actual title, like a better son slash daughter. And the way she like says that.

line is really, she's like, and more grown up and a better daughter, like breath or son or a real good friend. Like that I just, she's growing more confident in like her, not even bringing to the table, but I guess bringing to the booth. Yeah, or just like saying what she wants to say, right? And like saying it with her full chest, if you will. Yes. Prudgeon Dillon's noted that in his review of more adventurous, Robert Criscow said that a better son

slash daughter should be licensed to the American Psychological Association for free downloading by depressives and their codependence. Oh my God. Yeah. Go off. Go off, King. That's really good. In general, like, you feel like this is the album where like things stepped up for Riloh Kylie. Yeah, I think so. I mean, no hate on their first two albums, which were self-produced. But I think when they started working with Mike Mogus, that was like a huge moment for them. Yeah. It's weird because, like, I mean, they were just working on it themselves. But they found like, a. third party or like an external person who really could help elevate them to this place that is their strongest. I got the sense as I was going along that like they always wanted to sound

bigger and more complex from the beginning, right? And it just wasn't really available to them. And you hear it as you go along the more it's available to them, the more they'll take it, you know? Yeah. And I think it reaches kind of like an extreme end. So it's definitely, definitely interesting. I mean, sometimes the limitations are good. But we'll get into that. Okay, here, this is when she did that interview that I was referencing before.

It was at the Washington Post, and she said, when I sit down to write a song, I'm not like, okay, I'm going to start out kind of dark and then let it evolve into a bit of hope. Yeah. But I think that's indicative of my personality a little bit. So she doesn't set up to do that, but it is indicative of her personality.

There's an underlying darkness, but somewhere there's hope. When I think of my favorite songwriters or even my favorite movies, there's always a bit of hope. Even in the darkest stories, you sort of see the light at the end of the tunnel. I mean, I think that is why I listen to Riley Riley. Okay. Tell me more about that. Is it like it speaks both to like maybe a sadness or something that you like to feel or see

express, but you also need that hopeful moment? Yeah, definitely. I mean, Ryle Wai Lkely definitely appeals to a lot of high schoolers, and I don't say this dismissively because teen girls are like the coolest. but like when you're really just like feeling everything to the extreme and here's this person who's like really digging into that like really digging into like these complicated feelings and you're like wow seen yeah but yeah like some people don't like to listen to people talk about like heavy emotions but i do and or those people they're on well wanting to talk to them they need help i don't listen to riloh kiley to mope i think i would I listened to like early bright eyes if I maybe wanted to moat. This is not wallowing music. Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, I don't think it's wallowing music at all, especially not that song. Right. But yeah, I mean, I think especially for me, since it was something that all my friends loved, like, it really, like, to me, it speaks of, like, connection. And I think a lot of people had that, have that association with Riloh-Kiley, whether or not it was, like, over the internet. Like, that's how they found, like, live journal or communities or, like, Tumblr communities, like, I think Rilkeli-Kiley fans find each other. I mean, that's extremely true. And they were able to find each other because that's the hallmark of the time, right?

Yeah. It was all about these like online communities and people sharing stuff through them. That's sort of really nice that their music was able to be shared so well by teens with internet connections, you know? Because that wasn't so much the case just 10 years prior. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess it should be noted. I grew up in the panhandle of Florida.

And like there is not a lot happening music-wise or like culture-wise. So it was like a huge light bulb moment to be exposed to bands like Ryle L Kylie. Like they really were like an entryway into so many things for me. And I think for a lot of people. From what I can tell my research, the band that launched a thousand other artists. Yeah. In a really very real way. Okay.

So this album was pretty well reviewed. the New York Times said the new album is just as sweet, but it's, you know, referring back to the last release, the new album is just sweet, but it's more self-assured, more adventurous, and much more appealing. The biggest change is in Ms. Lewis, who has learned to wield her sugary voice as a weapon. Most of the lyrics don't rhyme or scan, but Ms. Lewis finds inventive vocal lines to fit the catchy melodies. Sometimes her voice is nimble and conversational, and sometimes she stretches out words with falsetto. I guess this is kind of like underscoring what you were saying, right? There's like, I don't say a newfound confidence,

but like a very easy to hear strength to not just Gianna Lewis's lyrics, but the way she's delivering them. Yeah. This was not one of the songs I put on the playlist, but like I love that song Paints Peeling. Yeah, I like that song a lot too. It's so good. And it's also, there's a lot of like humor in that song

and some of the ways that she's like delivering line. I think there's always been humor in Riloh Kiley. I just feel like she's really like leaning into the like storytelling and all of that that entails. Like it's not just like a flat monologue. I'll tell you what, this blender review? Oh no. Let's read it. I'm just confused by it.

It says ready for the Gen X revival. The L.A. group Riloh Kiley make 20-something disillusionment sound ryer, sunnier, and more melodic than anyone has since Alanus Morris at ruined it with her angsty wine. Their second album starts with gloomy space rock, but can't keep its ebulence in check. Sentimental post-country tunes knock against acute lyrics about rent, overbearing parents, and other aspects of the pre-midlife crisis, as rock-out moments keep grimness at bay. If Natalie Merchant worked bad jobs in nowhere towns, she might be as much fun as singer Jenny Lewis. It proclaims planetary annihilation like it's the special of the day. It's a lot happening there. It made me think like it's really funny to review Ryle O'Kiley on the terms of Gen X

music. Yeah. I don't really understand that framework. It feels a little out of touch, right? It's like, it made me think like, what if there had been a rookie in 2002? Yeah. I ask myself that quite often. There were the blogs that we're talking about, but, you know, wasn't per se as much like teens writing about their own stuff. Pretty original and brought up Sassy, but no, Sassy was definitely not around in 2002 anymore. Jane magazine was around in 2002, probably. But I don't know if they covered Relickeye, I didn't find anything. Entertainment Weekly gave it an A-Minus.

Okay. Yeah, great. Yeah. They liked it. They mentioned that she has a Fespian's flare for drama and a record geek's appreciation of music's power to convey it, which that was a great line. I should also note that I was into theater in high school, if that wasn't already obvious, like, again. I'm not going to say it was obvious, but it's not. surprising. Yeah, I'll accept that. Like, I'm like, oh my God, you don't know. Not possible. I'll accept it. Love this. I just went to a high school theater production of Little Shop of Horrors. Shout out my little cousin Ruby. She was great. Me personally, not a musical theater person, makes me wildly uncomfortable. But I support the musical theater community. Yeah. And all their endeavors. Yeah, I have not much of a musical theater. I mean, I like musical theater, but I cannot sing to save my life. So to be. To be.

clear. I'm not out here like singing cats or something or like. Right, right. You're just, you're like, I said theater, babe. Yeah. R.E. Okay. It's not guys and dolls. No, no guys and dolls. This is, um, just to sort of compare and contrast with those like more, uh, establishment, you know, print magazine reviews. Drowned in sound. A blog. So your life is a Winona writer movie. You wear your clothes like a cutie slacker post-grunge skater kid from Mars or L.A. or wherever. The organized mess of your hair just about gives away the fact that you are a little concern about its gay abandon. You are the sunshine of a yellow t-shirt. You are to quote, so fucking on. Welcome to the world you've been missing since you were 14, 15, 16, or whenever. Producer Dylan says, oh, M.G. Drag little

Dylan to the pits of hell. Yeah, this is like, what if rookie reviewed. Oh, man. I thought that was cute. There's more, obviously. about the album. They say this thing, which I was surprised to read because it was something I asked Dylan. They say, Riloh Kylie could sound

a little like the breeders, but they don't. They could sound like the primitive Circa Crash, but they don't. I had asked this producer Dylan way before we started. I was like,

why do I like the breeders, but it's hard for me to get into Riloh Kylie. And she did point out that they're very different. They're very different. I meant more vocally, right?

Because you could say that Kim, deal also has sort of like a very girlish, I don't even know how to describe that vocal quality, but it's, you know, it's sugary. It is sugary. But yeah, there's a, you know, undeniable 90s sort of tinged grunginess. Yeah, and Julianna Hatfield is also another really good example. She also has a very sugary singing voice. But their music is so much more steeped in the kind of grungy type rock that I, you know, I'm the most comfortable and familiar with. That makes sense. And it's ironic, right? There's like a lot of posturing of irony in the readers and Juliana Hatfield and Liz Ferry even like, you know, Riloh Kiley, while, again, such a sharp lyricist, more earnest.

Oh, definitely. And people have very complicated feelings about earnestness, I would say. That's right. And especially people who are spiritually gen X. Oh, yeah. Very complicated emotional things about earnestness. Ernest goes to camp. Oh, man. So, yeah, again, I think that's the sugary aspect is, again, why I don't, I wouldn't say their emo. There were no female fronted emo bands, right? I mean, can you name one? No, not at that time. I think Haley Williams is sort of, like, crowned as the first female emo singer. Shout out to Paramore. I have a big fan. Yeah, I love Paramore. Love, love Halie Williams, love her solo music, love all of it.

So, pitchfork did give this a 7.5 on the tail of the 4.0. Okay, a little bit. I liked this one. Yeah. They said, it's always great to hear a band known for their so-so records, suddenly make one where everything clicks. Well, that is a matter of opinion, I would say. Call-that.

Call-that. I thought it was interesting, and I don't know if it was reactionary, but post this album and post-breakup, Jenny and Blake do separate projects. Yes. And this is when very famously, Jennifer Lewis joins the Postal Service. Ben Gibbard of Jeff Cab and Jimmy Tambarillo, aka D. Intel.

And we are going to such great heights. I loved the Postal Service so much for all the reasons. Honestly? Yeah. Me too, babe. Me, the Postal Service, right in the iPod. Oh, yeah. Depressed, wandering the streets of San Francisco, just bummed in real time, 2003.

I was living and dying for the Postal Service. For whatever reason, there's like one small window where like I have one death cab album that I love and I love that Postal Service album. But I never really participated in this music otherwise. Yeah, the Postal Service, I'm pretty sure where my entry went into Death Cab. And what a world. What a world awaited me. I really only got into Transatlantis as I'm going to listen to that album a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot. A lot, a lot.

I was a very sad. It was a very sad person. Great album. And yet you never got into Riley Kylie. It's like, dang. And, you know, here we are. I was mostly. listening to Pavement.

Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I would just, like, throw on the postal service, you know. Anyways, Blake and the new drummer. Oh, yeah, we haven't even mentioned Jason Bozell. So Blake's Anna and the new, new Riloha Palli drummer, who I think joined for this album, Jason Bousel. Yeah. They had a new band called The Elected. So in 2004, they released an album.

I have never listened to The Elected, to be honest. Me neither. Like I said, I don't care about the band that Jenny Lewis is singing backup vocal. Yeah, totally. And I have a hard time can even, I mean, this isn't my wheelhouse, but like the Blake's sung songs aren't ever my favorite either. And I don't know why. He's not a bad singer. You know, it's not that. But it's just like, I don't find them as interesting. One of the many mole hills that grew into a mountain, if you will, with Riloh Kylie is the Jenny Lewis of it all. And then the like afterthought of Blake. tale is all this time. Yeah. Like, hey, can you come sing back up in my band? No, actually, I'm going to be the star.

Yeah. And I'm really talented. Oh, everyone cares more about you. This is tough. Yeah. Not going to last. And I wouldn't be able to take it either. Oh, no.

Right out the door. Oh, definitely. And again, that's why, like, I do have empathy for Blake. I have empathy for everyone in that band on various levels. It seems tough to be in a band. Yeah. been in that profile they did in 2007. Blake, like, talked a little bit about their breakup, his and Jenny's breakup. And he said essentially that he felt like smothered in the relationship and that he felt

like their songwriting was like growing complacent. Hmm. That's interesting. Sounds to me, I mean, that essentially is like her star was shining really bright and it was making me feel small. But who knows, who knows? I mean, they stayed in a band together. So, but yeah, he was also like her first boyfriend. I think, which is not Jake Gyllenhaal, as is widely reported. Oh, my God. Jake Gyllenhaal. Because they went to like a premiere together or something when they were teens. Yeah, but then I think she said like, our parents were friends or something.

Yeah. No, who knows why they broke up. And there's a million reasons people break up. It's really easy to like use that narrative. And like I'm sure that was slightly part of it, but like we don't know we weren't part of it. But they do, like you said, they do keep making music together. And then we get to 2004. Oh boy.

The indie. The indie is indieing, babe. Fiery Furnaces. Franz Ferdinand. Good news for people who love bad news is out. Modest Mouse. Arcade Fire Funeral. Jujoo.

Elliot Smith from a basement on the hill after he's already died. Blonde Redhead, Misery is a Butterfly. That was a big album for me. Ted Leo and the pharmacist. Once again, Iron and Wine. Your friend Regina has put out her big Soviet Kitch album. Sufion. Joanna Newsom.

So I'm just saying, there's lots going on. Lots of indie rock is indie rocking in 2004. I'll say it again. I wasn't in high school in 2004, but. You're like, it's a great time to be 11 years old. Yeah, it was a great. I felt like when I was in high school, school. I was appreciating everything from 2004, like really hard. That was a big year for me in like

2008. But yeah, Rilke highly more adventurous. Before we like go, you know, dive had first into more adventurous. I would be remiss in not mentioning all these times that we've talked about, Johnny Lewis's voice, that many people find my voice annoying also. You're seen. The community that finds my voice annoying and yet cannot stop listening to this podcast, which is a personal choice. You are seen and I witness you. Okay, tell me about, tell me about more adventurous 2004. Yeah, so more adventurous is Riloh-Kiley's third album, if you're not counting the self-titled slash the initial friend EP, which I don't know.

I'm sure there's some purists out there who are going to be upset, but I think of it as the third album and they made it with the intention of releasing it on Saddle Creek, but they actually, like they produced it with Mike Mogus and all of that, but they actually ended up releasing it on an imprint of Warner. So it was like kind of their main major label debut. So earlier, I think I said that the execution of all things was my favorite album and I think that that wasn't true. I think more adventurous definitely is. I take it back. I take it back. Z's. Yeah, take it back to you. I think a Better Son Daughter still is my favorite song, but like if I'm going to throw on a Riloh-Kiley album, it's probably going to be more adventurous. This album was a really big breakthrough for them.

It was like it got them on the Billboard Hot 200. I mean, like low, but still. And then on the heat. Cracked in there. Yeah, like the Heat Seekers billboard list. I don't really, I've never really paid attention to that one, but that's a thing. That's seeking hate, babe. Like, I actually would be curious for your thoughts on this. Because our friends, the Postal Service, their album came out in 2003. And I wonder if the success of that album helped bring more of an audience to Riloh-Kiley. Yeah, I think the success of the Postal Service definitely probably had something to do with a boost in Riloh-Kiley. I mean, that's like a success for Jenny Lewis.

I also wanted to ask you, because this album was also produced by Mark Trombino from Drive-Like-Jahoo, and also Jimmy Tamborello, like a D. Entel, the producer of Social Service. Do you hear any of that? Like, I guess particularly in Jimmy Tamarillo, who is, you know, an electro pop guy. A little bit more than before. I mean, I know I said for the execution of all things that that sounded even bigger, but more adventurous is even bigger. And so I think like it sounds like on this album they're really taking advantage of everything

that is in front of them. I also wanted, I forgot to mention about the title track of the execution of all things. There's a line that Jenny Lewis sings and her tone is, it's a little sarcastic. She's, it's like very self-aware. Like, we'll go to Omaha to work and exploit the booming music scene and humility. And not to say that that's what they did because like I think what it probably would end up happening of them going to Warner, it wasn't exploited. But it is funny considering. I'm glad you brought that up because, again, I think that was a ton of. in cheek comment, obviously, or a lyric comment. But there was an interview with Rob Nansel of Seattle

Creek in Tweed magazine in 2004. I don't know if you read this. I did really. Yeah, kind of talking about why Riloh-Kiley didn't release more adventurous on Saddle Creek. And he, you know, he says it would would have been great to work on the Riloh-Kiley record, but there was just some things that we didn't see eye to eye on. Some things that they were interested in were not of interest to us. And rather than making compromises that inevitably would make one party feel uncomfortable or the other party feel shorted. The decision was made for them to do the record without us. And I'm really curious what those the next line says, this is not in the quote. It's just editorialization. But it says, further interviews reveal differences about the band's interests in commercial radio and music

marketing versus Saddle Creek's commitment to a community-centric indie approach. Yeah, that's what I figured that it probably was. And I think that goes back to what we were talking about before of like even from the start, they were DIY and since they were like self-recording and home recording. But I think their aspirations were always not to just, you know, make music and not make money.

Like I think they did want to be a career band. And so like there's nothing wrong with that. There's an interview that Jenny Lewis did with the LA Times. It's called Leaving Indy Life Behind. and I guess it was, you know, about this shift to sort of being distributed through a major label and leaving Saddle Creek. And she says, I think we're excited, but we're a little nervous as well because we've been completely independent up until this point. Once you start considering stockholders and the way these corporations are run, it isn't necessarily in line with experimental music and continuing to do things in a totally organic way. But at the same time, I feel like, you know, it's been eight years for us.

And if we're not going to do it now, then when? I think we owe it to ourselves to continue to grow. with the shift that's happening in music right now or bands like Modest Mouse and Franz Ferdinand and all these rock bands are trying to get played on the radio again, it just seemed like the appropriate time. Yeah, and that makes sense. And I mean, like as a fan, more adventurous is kind of like the perfect album because it has that Saddle Creek sound, but was given the publicity treatment and the exposure of a major label album, which is great. We'd be talking about a very different story had that not happened. I don't know if people would have been exposed to them nearly as much as they

have been now, for better or for worse. Yeah, that is interesting. I mean, I'm trying to think, like, good news for people who love bad news is the Modest Mouse album that, you know, was the one played on the radio. And that was on Epic, which is a major label. So maybe it was like even as easy as that for them to make the decision where it's like, well, there's bands that are like, in our, I don't say community, but like, you know, our colleagues who are, you know, not necessarily selling out, but seeing great success by signing to a major. Like, why can't, why shouldn't we? Why can't we? Yeah, I looked up, like, Teth Cab for Cutie's album Plans came out in 2005 on Atlantic. They were far from the only band in that scene or in that, like, a genre making that decision.

And so you feel like the main benefit from being the Sharmaid of Warner was more the after-album things like marketing and publicity, like not so much to do with the production or the sound of the record? I think it's hard to say because of knowing like what happens next and like how different their next album is. In the quote that you... The LA Times. The LA Times one with Jenny Lewis and she was kind of talking about how like there are some anxieties about moving to a major label and like their expectations and. things. And I don't feel like any of that is a part of more adventurous. And I don't think I could say it's part of under the black light too, because that would be like taking away the band's agency of like the sound that they wanted to explore. But yeah, I mean like the portions for Fox's video is like

that's a big budget production. It's like set in like a taxidermy studio. And like I don't know if that was played on like MTV or something, but I can totally see it being played on MTV. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I definitely was not watching MTV in 2004. Yeah, I don't think I was watching much. I don't think I had cable. Yeah. Producer Dylan, you were watching MTV in 2004. Was this video being played on TRL or whatever? No. Okay. Thank you so much for weighing in. I can see why it's hard for you to decide between this one and the execution of all things.

Yeah. You mentioned portions for foxes. Let's play that song. Yeah. And then we can talk a little more about that song in particular and also the album. This is Portions for Foxes. That was Portions for Foxes. You guys, we have a very special treat.

A very special treat for all of you. Producer Dylan, hi. I know you're out there. I know there's more of you actually than people that like or care about me. And that is fine. I've made my peace with it. Producer Dylan is going to come on the hot mic and street team. orally street team for Riloh-Kiley,

because this was also her favorite album. Come on down, produce Ritalin. Hello, crawling out of the shadows. Hello, and welcome to Banswain. Hello, welcome to Banspwain. Yalsie has passed away. I'm here to take up the door to. I don't know.

I love this. This was your album, Quinn. Right? Yeah, yeah. We're like exactly the same age. I think, like, if I'm being honest with myself, yes, this is definitely without a doubt. Yeah.

And what, how old are you guys here at 11? what's happening? Well, yeah, it's funny, I don't know, I guess just like... I'm walking into the sea. Like, Big Indy kind of became alternative in terms of like the exposure of like Death Cab and Modest Mouse and Riley and stuff. Like I feel like around the time we were in middle school and during high school. So this was kind of in the wave of like my musical discovery.

like seventh, eighth grade, which was a couple of years after this came out. So your 13-year-old ass is sitting there being like, and the talking leads to touching, and then the touching leads to sex. He-he, there's no mystery left. Like, did you know what this woman was talking about? But you're like, 11, 12-year-old self. I know. Fucking run. Literally. I was like, I know a babe had like literally never kissed him away in my life.

I was like, totally this hits, babe. It's the same. Wait, so Dylan, how did you discover Riley? Well, I think aforementioned I was a proud member of the Barsook street team around this time. I guess the whole process of that was like you gave them your address. They sent you posters and then you just like put up the posters. I think you earned tickets or something. How you even ended up on the Barsook Street team.

It's not like they came to your home and recruited you. Oh, no, I went to like Barsook Records.com because I like loved Death Cab. That's how you got there. Loved Death Cab. So, yeah, I think I just found out about Riloh Kiley through that Millia. I also, like, there were some music magazines at the time. Like, do you guys remember Filter? Duh.

I sent in a letter to the editor once when I was in seventh grade. And it literally read, I don't know if I told you this, YALC? The precociousness is actually like, like, like, Code red highs. Yeah, yeah, it's like red flags. I haven't seen. Is it in your box of things that we can't see? Oh, yeah, my lock and key. My zines you cannot see. I sent them a letter to the editor once because I, like, loved this one issue. And I was just starting to figure out music magazines and how they were so much cooler than like teen magazines. And I said as much in my letter and they published it with the headline restraining order, question mark. What? Oh my God. That was your first taste of being a bit of a stalker.

And that was my first taste of a, you know, the... The sweet, sweet rush of being published. Being a published author. Yeah, that was my first published. Yeah, I just, like, I loved this album, I think, because of all the really... Like, nothing that deep. Just she was, like, the Queen Bee of indie rock at the time. Yeah.

And you're a 12-year-old girl. she's pretty non-threatening. This album is like produced in such a way that it's like a really easy gateway from pop music to indie rock. Like there's nothing really like jarring or hard or difficult about listening to this album. And I just loved it. I loved Jenny. I knew I had none of the context of her being a child star before this. Like I wonder if it would have created a different sense of baggage. This begs a question for me. Like, It seems like 2004. And once again, you must forgive me. I was extremely checked out in 2004. I probably was deep in my backpack wrap bag and thusly not paying too much attention to contemporary indie rock. I had just like emerged from working at a record store all of college where I was, you know, ingrained in the white stripes deep, deep fandom. But past that, I was like, but were there a lot of women in rock at this time at the forefront? Because like, as per producer Dylan's little list that she makes for me for every year of releases. It's like Joanna Newsome, who was, I assume not as known as Riloh Kylie at that time, especially not by 12 or 13 year olds. Again, blonde redhead, I don't want to disparage you guys, but I have a feeling you weren't listening to Blonde Redhead. What else was kind of happening in the like women in rock space? It's hard for me to say because I didn't. Like, I was like, I was. Like, I was.

wasn't the panhandle of Florida. Yeah, no, I mean, honestly, like, yeah, my exposure to things was very limited. And especially, like, I didn't hear Rilkekeye, probably more until, like, 2007. But in 2004, I mean, like, I don't mean to, um, to, like, shit on anyone or, like, overlook anyone. But I think, like, to Dylan's point, like, Jenny Lewis was, like, the Queen Bee of Indy Rock. Like, she was definitely the most public, um, facing. when was the gossip a band? I mean, they were never...

Dude, exactly. That's like leaning into the point that I was going to bring up where this is like, Lord forgive me, but like peak indie slees and electro-clash and all that stuff. It wasn't called that then. It was called that then. Oh, no, it was called it. But it wasn't called indie slees.

We were just called it being a hipster. It's all we called it. Yeah, it was hipster. Like, hipster runoff. Like albums are leaking. We are downloading them. Yeah. And I feel like that's where a lot of the women were.

Yeah. Like in Rock, Indie Alternative. They were all Corey Kennedy. All the women in indie were all Corey Kennedy. We used to check Cobra Snake every morning. Oh my God, high school and see, like, who we knew was on the Cobra Snake. I guess I got iTunes in like 2008. And the things that are on here, there's a lot of like free iTunes downloads.

There's a lot of like bright eyes, shins, death cats. the Decembris, and then Jenny Lewis solo, Cat Power, St. Vincent. But also, I think, like, we were talking about earlier, there's a huge difference between, you know, someone like Cat Power, or St. Vincent. Jesus is saving. I'm spending. And a band of men punched by a woman.

Totally. With women in rock, it feels like this everlasting, dynamic that they have to be like an ingenue or something, like an ingenue leader of a band, which like you could argue Jenny Lewis kind of was in some ways, versus just like a regular person in a band. Does that make sense? Like it feels like the leaders of early mid-2000s indie music who were women, they kind of like stood alone as these like enigmatic figures. Yeah, 100%. Like carno. You know what I mean? Like we don't talk about. We don't talk about. about like Isaac Brock the way we do like Carineau or Jenny Lewis.

Oh yeah. I mean, that goes all the way back to like all women, like, you know, Courtney Love was like. It was like everlasting. Yeah, exactly. Like you had to be this sort of like totem. I'm interested in this is like a forward looking question, but like I am kind of interested in as much as we've made of the importance of Jenny Lewis fronting a band. a large portion of the artist that she inspired are not fronting a band, right? I mean, Waxahatchee, Best Coast, obviously.

But then it seems to splinter off into like many, many singer-songwriters. Yeah. And I don't say that disparagingly. I love a singer-songwriter. No, definitely. I mean, like Girl Pool, not singer-songwriters, but like that's a duo. Yeah, kind of a band. I'll get.

I'll love it. They're a band. I think like Charlie, Eva from Charlie Bliss is a fan. That's maybe like one person who is like fronting kind of a band. But also it is confusing to me as a writer when like singular and plural like snail mail. Stale mail is Lindsay Jordan,

but snail mail is also like she has her band. That's very confusing to me. But hard to make the subject on the verbity. But ultimately, like, snail mill is one person and Waxahatchie is one person. And even if they are joined by a backing band on albums or live, like, they are the person writing the song. So, yeah, that is interesting. I don't have a answer as to why that could be. We never answer anything here.

We simply pose questions and then let them hang in the air and mail. I think, I mean, I think a huge thing was how easy it's been to make and share music in, like, the past decade. because of the internet and because of band camp. And that kind of lends itself to solo work, I would say. Do you think Clero listened to Riloh Calli? Probably, yeah. I think, I mean, Riloh Kiley, we're inescapable. I'm still like so surprised you never.

I managed me escape from Riloh Kiley, no problem. Super easy, actually. Yeah. Well, right before this I was thinking about it, specifically in relation to portions for foxes, which is such a great song and it was really hard for Bible reference right

the name Psalm 63 but they have sought my soul in vain there shall go into the lower parts of the earth they shall be given over to the power of the sword they shall be portions for foxes Amen that's right it definitely makes me think of

not in terms of like melody or instruments or anything like that but like the soccer mommy song like still clean left me drowning once you've picked me out your blood Great song gorgeous

Yeah yeah and like The use kind of of like Bloody imagery Kind of the comparison of yourself To a piece of meat I suppose But also like I was thinking earlier About how I went and saw Duolipa My queen in concert the other day

And I feel like Duolipa Doolipa gives me exactly what I want from Duolipa, like, it's pop music. It's about, like, the most extreme form of, like, whatever emotion she's talking about. And I feel like Jenny Lewis kind of does that in her own way, in her own writing, although it's not, like, you know, duelipa pop music. It's like indie rock or folk or whatever. But her music, like, when she's talking about an emotion, it's always like, like it's like she's like pulling from like the elements of the world almost and I think that's like she is a pop star in that way right like she's she's doing something similar just in a different style this song was in was on rock band producer dylan has mentioned to me just kind of amazing you mentioned that you wish that you could play it's a hit we don't need to play it but we would you mind talking about it a little bit because that's kind of an interesting song it was extremely difficult and I think

Yeah, Living My Truth, more adventurous, favorite album. But the first three songs on this album are just like hit after hit after hit. And the opening song, oh God, the opening song is called It's a Hit. And it is interesting because it is, yeah, so this was in 2004 and like the invasion of Iraq started in 2003. And it's a little bit of a political song. It's not quite like Connor Oberst on when the president talks to God. When the president talks to God, does he ever think that maybe he's not? She's lampooning politics.

And I know I talked before about like Riluk highly and like the environment, but they are often looking like beyond these small interpersonal things to like a bigger picture, which I think is really cool. So you're sort of referring to the first verse, which is any chimp can play human for a day. use his opposable thumbs to iron his uniform and run for office on election day. Fancy himself a real decision maker. She's talking about George Bush Jr. Dylan, you mentioned this maybe on Twitter.

Again, you're so chatty. You're so chatty in the chat. And yet here we are, your favorite band late before you. This is not my favorite band. Okay. Excuse me. Excuse me. One of your favorite childhood bands.

is being discussed. You said something about a Joni Mitchell song that reminded you of this. Well, I was listening to the song and I was like, man, I still love this song. It's so good. And then I was like, I love the canon of songs that are meta about like writing a hit that come from some sort of like maybe like frustration with the label heads or some like cynicism towards having to have some sort of pop hit. And I think this falls in that. It's ironic to me that that would be the intention of this song, given that they quite literally left Saddle Creek to have poppits, to have the opportunity to have poppits. I don't think it's like,

I don't think this is like a lampooning song. I think like it starts off with the George Bush commentary. And then the refrain is like, if it's not a hit, it's a holiday for a hanging. Like if you don't have a hit, might as well kill yourself, I guess.

You know? Shubop, shhubop, shabab. Yeah, and then, like, add in the duop vocals, which I think is kind of like a fun conceptual move. I mean, none of these thoughts crossed my mind as a 12-year-old listener. I was just like, yes, shab-shab-shab. Let's fucking go, Jenny. And you guys felt the same way Shababab-Shab-Shab-go, go, Jenny, about does he love you? Oh, my God.

Yeah, disturbingly so. Yeah, wait, before we move on to Does he Love You? I also think that line on it's a hit, like, but it's a, to sin when success complains in your writer's block it don't mean shit yeah it's a great verse it's a great yeah it's a really good verse and it's also um yeah i mean it's kind of a humbling a humbling line about what she's doing in the grand scheme of the world i would say but yes uh does he love you is that's a real real anthem anthems for a 17 year old girl but right look highly who has not yet been there been the other

in like a emphatically singing along. It really is to like me 12 years old in my bedroom. A married man, he visits me. You're just screaming it in your room. Your mom's like, Dylan, what are you listening to? I told you all see this, but I remember I downloaded this album from Limewire, and this song was like a corrupted file, and it didn't download completely. So I only knew like the first two-thirds of the lyrics.

It's like it cut off right after to like, long. She will never leave you. I like cut off right after that. And I was like, all I guess that's all I get. Wow. Wow. Well, so yeah, I mean, that song is a great example of kind of the twists of Jenny

Lewis's songwriting and like her storytelling and the whole you've got to wait till the end for the big reveal. But yeah, like I had no idea. That line I'm flawed if I'm not free is like, you know, high school. Yeah, that's a really good. That's a really good lyric. It's a pretty, it's like a crazy song. And like, listen.

12 years old, the OC is like, I don't know what season we're on, but we're in it. Laguna Beach, like, mellow drama. That's really like as deep as it goes for me, you know? Yeah, mellow drama. Yeah. This song to me is like, what if Patsy Kline indie? Yeah. What if Patsy Kline but indie?

I mean, there's Tweed for you right there in like a sentence. Oh, man. Well, I feel like that's... Am I wrong? That's a good... No, no, no. I feel like that's a good segue into the next song that I picked. I never, because that's like a torch song.

Like that's like another like big dramatic moment. Yeah. I don't know if we want to talk about that. Let's play it. This is I never. That was I never. I've accidentally mentioned this at the incorrect time before. But by more adventurous, Jenny and Blake had broken up and Jenny was writing a lot more solo songs.

And like if you look at the credits for more adventurous, I Never is one of the songs she wrote on her own. And I feel like you can really tell just based on the song itself. There's like this urban legend, I suppose, that she like recorded it nude in the sound booth to like really get the power, get the bear at all emotions. She removed the tuxedo uni-tard, one of those. The tuxedo onesie was stripped right off, babe.

And it's a great time for me to mention that the producer Joan has a great photo of herself at age 12 wearing a sailor hat. And it's a Halloween costume. I don't believe you. It was the metadata of whatever, like, I did. I don't know that from my photo bucket will reveal. Oh, man. It was a Halloween costume. But it was Tweed's fuck.

Sorry. So you were saying she wrote this herself, she got naked in the sound booth to really allegedly. Supposedly, allegedly, yes. But honestly, like, I'd believe it. Like, that's pretty cool. I hear this song, like, and I don't know if this is true, but I hear in this song, maybe even just butterfly effect by existing, led to Dum Dum girls and Vivian girls. Ooh. There was a lot of bands that came like maybe four or five years later that were very like retro girl group but like fuzzy and fucked up.

Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic band. Shout out Kristen. We love you. Also probably does not listen to the show, but if you do, hello. Yeah, yeah. This song, it's just like a classic.

It sounds like a classic. And her voice is incredible. And I don't even think I've ever seen her perform this song live. like maybe on a video or something, but not an IRL. To me, like, this song is Jenny Lewis somehow. It's so soulful. It goes back to, like, her love of, like, female singer songwriters. She's just pouring her whole body and her whole heart into it.

You know, cheers for that. Should we talk a little bit about ripcourt? Yeah, so I think, as I said before, I felt like I had to throw in a Blake song. So there's two songs on this album that are, like, tributes to Elliot Smith, who passed away in 2003. The other one is called It Just Is. Yeah, there's like this great quote from Jenny Lewis from before his death, actually,

where like she talks about being a fan of his. And they played some of his last shows, I believe, Riloh Kiley did. But this quote is like, the other night I thought about that when we were playing with Elliot Smith, like, if this guy only knew how much we admire him and how important he is and how he gave us the force to play music. And then, like, very soon after he died, which is very, very sad. So sad. But people have feelings about Blake and Blake's singing and I think, you know, you said earlier

that he doesn't really sound like Elliot Smith, but that is the comparison that a lot of people say. But I really love the image of just, like, a rip chord failing. And this song's kind of about the realization of just, like, not valuing something when it's around and just like really morning. Let's do Blake a solid and play it. This is Ripcorn. That was Ripcord. Yeah.

It's not my favorite song. But I think it's a nice moment in like the scope of the album. It's also the only song that he writes solo on this album. And like over their discography, his songs have gotten really whittled down to here. And, you know, whether that's because like Jenny Lewis is stepping up or because he's putting his songwriting efforts towards his other band, like, who knows? Right. This, I feel like is a good lead in to, like, the spin cover story in 2007 that I feel like

a lot of, like, the Blake and Jenny relationship, like, the band starts to deteriorate around this time, I think, like, for real. And do you think that was, like, the pressure of taking things more seriously and trying to, like, have these, like, pop hits and then also wanting to go, in different directions, maybe songwriting-wise? Definitely the latter, I would assume, like, wanting to go in different directions and probably, like, communication wasn't great. I mean, Jenny was in the postal service. Like, I don't, I think her star was definitely, like, shining brighter. Jenny Lewis, in her solo career, I feel like she's never really, like, chased hits or cared about hits or

anything like that. I don't want to say that Riloh-Kiley was like focused on making a hit necessarily. I don't know if they would have had a spin cover story if they were still on Saddle Creek in 2007, but they had a spin cover story in 2007, which is really glued into my brain because I think that's the year I became aware of them. And I feel like I remember seeing it at an airport, but like Jenny and Blake are on the cover and they just, they look like so cool and amazing. and Jenny's hair is like so bright. But the piece is really interesting because, like, they really talk about their relationship and how they used to date and some of the problems

that led to their breakup. But there's this quote at the end. The headline, by the way, of this cover story was, Are They the New Fleetwood Mac just for everyone? Yeah, so it's around this time people started saying that, which is, I don't. It doesn't really make sense to me, I guess. But there's this quote in that article where Blake says, like, she's mediocre and I'm mediocre, which like, okay, wha, way, way. But it's true. I mean, like. I mean, doesn't you know you shouldn't talk about yourself like that? Oh, it's that, that article is really, I would love to have a print copy of that article content to anyone.

There's many, many copies on eBay. Oh, well, there you go. Well, before we jump to 2007 fully, I'm fully. I want to talk a little bit about, to your point earlier, like how I think having this Warner deal did get them larger, maybe press coverage, you know, put them in front of producer Dylan's eyes in the form of a filter magazine feature is what I'm assuming. There's like a great New York Times a night out with, which I won't read any of, but just to mention that they go to Edendale and then the Red Lion.

So real heads know, real LA heads know. what that means. Robert Criscow wrote like a big write-up in the Village voice, like separate from the album, which he loved it. He loved the album. He called it to hit The Song of the Year. He was a huge, huge fan. It got really a good press. The Guardian reviewed it, Rolling Stone reviewed it. John Perlis wrote it up for The New York Times also. He said, musically more adventurous is actually less adventurous than Riloh Kiley's previous albums. He's not wrong. The band doesn't try so hard to meld or twist genres,

choosing and said to polish one at a time. There's no lo-fi reverse snobbery in Riloh-Kiley. Each song on More Adventure sounds rich and well-plotted. While the strain is evident, it's a sign that Riloh-Kiley still has new ambitions. What is the strain that he's referring to? I don't know. Producer Dillon has put that after an ellipses,

and I don't know. Because there was definitely strain. I mean, they said often, like, every time they'd finish an album, they didn't know if it was going to be their last. What if he's calling them try-hards? He's like, oh, they're try-hards. British ones says, I think that was it. Oh, interesting.

Well, maybe he was calling them try-hards. They do sound like they're trying. And there's nothing wrong with that. No, no, no. It paid off. But, yeah, that's a big shift from the 90s of the 2000s, right? You can try. Pitchfork.

Uh-oh. Your friends. gave it a 6.7. And they, going in full defiance of Robert Criscoe, called It's a Hit the weakest song on the album. Polarizing. It's a polarizing song. Besides from takeoffs and landings, I try not to revisit the old pitchfork Rilkela Kiley reviews

because I have little to gain from them. But I would assume that that is due to the songs kind of like duwopi, like lighthearted, like, I don't know exactly what tone you would. used to describe those lyrics. It's not like playful. It's a little clever. It's a little like not cutesy in like a negative way, but it's yeah, it's like tongue and cheek and like smirking and silly about a serious thing. Yeah. So like I think that that definitely is probably why they didn't like it. Maybe they don't see it coming but they're about to lose their whole goddamn mind

over Vivian girls. Riloha Polly does play late night shows on the strength of this album, which is also probably a big deal. They play Conan O'Brien and Jimmy Kimmel Live. It's cute. I watched the Conan O'Brien performance. Do they do portions for foxes? They sure do. They sure do. It's good. And then they open for bright eyes on the international leg of the tour for I'm Wide Awake, It's Morning. And maybe more meaningfully, they are the opening out for the North American dates of Coldplay's Twisted Logic Tour in the fall of 2005. And they play in Madison Square Garden. They open for Coldplay at Madison Square Garden. Sounds very cool.

wish I had been there. I have to assume that really opened up a whole new, huge fan base. Now we are in 2007. So again, I mean, hard to say what impact, if any, really being on a major had, but it's sort of clear with like the late night stuff, the further press. I assume they would have opened for Bright Eyes on tour regardless. But, you know, being on a cold-played tour had to have maybe something to do with that. So everyone's stars rising.

Yeah, the stars rising. They're getting a boost to lift up. And Portions for Fox is a hit. And it's in TV shows and producer Dylan's iPod. Yes. So they put out under the black light in August of 2007. We have not mentioned Jenny Lewis's solo album, which came out 2006. We have not mentioned.

I can't believe we didn't mention it because I'm absolutely obsessed with the fact. that in messy bitches that live for drama hours, that Jenny Lewis released Rabbit for a Coat, and Blake Senate released his band's album, the elected son, son, son, on the exact same day. See, that's what I mean. I'm like, yeah, and I think that Spin article does a good job of kind of mentioning that in a way that is pointed.

It's so weird. It's really weird. And I think that's really rude. Like, I don't know which came first, but that just is really uncomfortable and, like, competitive in a way that seems very toxic and not great. I think it's also in that spin piece that someone else in the band maybe like Jason is like, I also have a solo album coming out and like no one says anything. Everyone's like really awkward. But yeah, Rabbit for Coat came out on Connor Obers label, Team Love. And that was, I don't know, I mean, I wouldn't necessarily call it like a hit, but it was a big record.

It's like trying to clean the ocean. What do you think you can drain it? I have the cover of the record burned in my brain. This is, yes. Wait, this is not the one with the Watson twins. No, it is. Okay, yeah, because why are they carrying purses? It's never left my mind.

It's, yes, the shining reference I got. why are they holding handbags? Why are their handbags on an album cover? It really got under my skin. I must tell you, it's very strange. Wow, I've never thought about that. It's a very striking visual, and then I'm just, I can't get over

why I'm looking at handbags on an album cover. You don't need your handbag in a photo shoot and an album cover. What's in there? Yeah, I guess I really like that. Neither here or another. I think also this is kind of an interesting point of, is this album cover done by Autumn DeWild? I feel like it is because they started working together. I don't know if it was around this time, but their next album cover, I'm pretty sure,

is shot by Autumn to Wild and some music videos. So they were really, like, leaning into the image. Right. Their earlier album covers, like, didn't have any photos of them. And, like, under the Blacklight does. They look very cool and very L.A. But yeah, rabbit fur coat definitely established Jenny, like, again, as, like, a really good songwriter. And on the, like, title track, she, like, weaves the mythology of, like, her upbringing, which is really great.

Like, talks about her mob. So, yeah, I think that's important context going into under the black light. And it's a real, like, rabbit for coat that is, is, like, a, you know, fokey soul, like that vibe. Yeah, I found it really interesting because this is the Riloha Ripping at the seams where it's, like, Jenny Lewis wants to make this kind of music, obviously, because she went and made it, you know? And like, I don't know if that was at odds with what was happening in Riley Riley. The elected, which is an indie rock band, is making indie rock music. And it's just, you know, the divergent paths of these, like, what started out as sort of two co-creators in a band, it's maybe like hitting a head.

And then add to it, you're kind of famous. now and there's probably a lot of expectation. This album is properly on Warner Brothers. It's no longer just distributed. We have the guy, the producer, Jason, I believe it's later, later, who had worked with Avril Levine, Maroon 5, and engineered some Red Hot Chili Pepper's albums, which I find delightful. And also this guy, Mike Elizondo,

who had had production for Rihanna on Good Girl Bad and Exhibit, and also Maroon 5. As a result, two members of Maroon 5 do play on this album, James Valentine and Mickey Madden and also Alex Greenwald of Phantom Planet. And Jackson Brown plays on this album. Classic LA vibes. The album credits do not state on which songs the guests appear, so I can't tell you. Yeah, I would love to have a CD copy of this album specifically because the photos on the inside are very cool.

But yeah, so actually, like this brings us up, like I am fairly certain that I definitely heard by Likiley around this album. Like, I am now caught up in the timeline. I am aware of indie music. So I think a lot of people around my age, this was how they were introduced to Riloh-Kiley. But I think for, actually, I don't think I know for longtime fans, it was like a hugely divisive album. Producer Dillon? Your thoughts? Your silence is definite.

Oh, under the black light. No, I don't think I've ever looked at or listened to this album. Oh, wow. I don't understand how you got so into just one Riloh-Kiley album. did not go backwards and did not continue on. It's like a bizarre fan behavior. You're a completest and I maybe just vibe. You wrote a letter to filter magazine expressing your love and adoration for the magazine.

But one album was just like enough for you for this. You know, I mean, maybe by 2007 I'm like a freshman sophomore in high school. I've moved on from Tui. I've like moved on. Not Quinn. No, no, no. I'm like Peter Quinn call around today. Quinn's only just now moved in.

She's brought her suitcases and she's like, okay, I found my new home. I'm going to unpack. And the suitcases are like vintage and have sort of like a tweed cover. Absolutely. I used to carry those vintage in this era. I sure did have some of those vintage suitcases that we used to get on. Oh, yeah, me too. Shout out St. Vincent's thrift store.

What a time. What a time to have been alive. Well, Pruderdinil and then your inside is no longer needed. since you have nothing to say about this album. Bye. Okay, bye. So, Quinn, because you sort of came in at this time anyway, so you didn't have the, like, how dare.

Yeah, no. They change feelings. But this wasn't the first album you heard. No. I don't think. Well, again, I heard a bunch of songs that had been put on my iPod that were not full albums. But I think silver lining definitely was probably

one of the first songs that I heard. And that's like a beautiful, lovely song. It's a gorgeous song. Why don't we play it? Get everyone, get everyone situated into Outer the Blacklight. This is Silver Linings. First song on the album, A Banger. That was Silver Lining. I mean, that's a straight-up pop song. Am I in fact? Yeah. And that song definitely, you know, you mentioned the Fleetwood Mac comparison earlier. Like, I get that with this song, definitely. And especially, you know, the interband drama. Like, sure, that's very Fleetwood Mac. the L.A., like whatever.

But yeah, Silver Linings is a perfect song, I would say. It's also pretty, I mean, it was great for a high schooler to discover a wonderful song. But like under the black light, so like the concept that they were kind of going for, like, they want to, you know, the black light like shows what's not typically seen in the normal conditions. And like, like come. Yeah. Yeah. Like come.

And it's always there, but you just might not see it. And so, yeah, like the seediness and like Riley, we're always an L.A. band, especially, you know, their Hollywood roots. And even when they were on Saddle Creek and kind of had their Midwestern dalliance, they were always very L.A. And I think they have that existentialism that a lot of California people have because of, you know, California. It's the recipe for a black hole bit.

Exactly. The big one's coming. this album is like really glossy and it's really poppy and it's a little it's a little all over the place but I thought like in 2008 there's this good quote from Jenny Lewis where she says like she turned herself into a fake pop star for this album she says people like to think Warner Brothers molded us into this pop band but that's what we really wanted to do and at the time I thought that is what I wanted for that record I was very capable of singing pop songs and strutting around in hot pants. That's one aspect of my personality. But do I think that personality best

suits the songs I write? No way. Queen of hot pants, honestly. Yeah. Then that's like, I mean, I think that maybe answers some of the questions you were asking earlier about like the major label stuff. Because like band signs to a major label, they make a huge pop album. Like, okay, perfect. Right. I guess I get the sense from this album. And honestly, even from the album before, for that there's it's kind of to what I was saying before about like the band splitting at the seams and again I do not want to speak for Jennifer Lewis but like given that solo album and then given like other songs on this album like for example the Angels hung around right that's just like a straight up country song and I feel the like these albums are a little uneven is not

even the right word. There's a lot going on, like, genre-wise and in a really sort of scattered way. And that's maybe like why it's hard for me to keep up with getting into the album, particularly this album, because I'm, you know, I'm like, oh my God, pop song. And then I don't know what's happening now. And then now we're singing in Spanish. Yes. And then the smoke detector song is like the Frug part two. You know what I mean? But just like glossier polish. And then like I said, the Angels hung around, which is a great song. Yeah. I really like that song and has a really cool little Liz Fair hat tip.

I don't know if it was on purpose, but the lyric is, I've been clubbed and I've been snubbed by the dogs of L.A. I have to assume that that's a Liz Phair reference. And if it's not, no one tell me. Yeah. Do you get what I'm saying? Oh, no, I definitely do. Especially I was really listening to this album earlier and the song where she is singing

in Spanish and she's kind of rapping. I feel like earlier we were like, where's that De La Sol reference? Or like, where's the rap influence? The Spanish really sent me. I was like, oh, no. Yeah, yeah, I definitely, that's not a song I just threw on to listen to. That song is when she, I don't know, you, you know, you guys probably followed Jenny Lewis's love lies closer than I did, but that song was co-written by Jonathan Rice.

Were they already dating? Yes, and I know they're dating because he's in that. that's been an article in 2007. Also, I mean, there was a Jenny and Johnny song was a free iTunes download at some point, probably around this time, which is, I don't know if Jenny and Johnny had started in 2007, but TBT to that.

But yeah, so Silver Lining, again, is like a really good song, but I think people, this album is a little all over the place. They're like, I guess they're like trying a lot. So the next song I think that I want to talk about is a really good example of. of some of the reactions to this album and some of the confusion around it. And that's The Moneymaker. Yeah, let's hear it.

Okay, this is The Moneymaker. That was The Moneymaker. Dude, the Electro is clashing, babe. Do you hear that? It is a collab. I'm a robot. Is on the phone. They'd like to speak to us.

And we can't talk to them right now. I was saying to producer Dylan in the private, the hallowed halls of the sacred chat, that it's giving the gossip and the y-I-I-I-A-As, but like much shinier. Yes, it's definitely very, very hip-thrusty. 2007-a song, if you will. Yeah, it really is. 2007 does the 70s slash 80s kind of vibe. Okay, the moneymaker versus science and romance.

That's a six-year period. Like, those songs could not be more different. Right. So that's really interesting. She's like, Tweed bitch, why don't you eat a dick? I'm this now. And I think, like, personally, the approach is a little heavy-handed on the song. But I think there are a lot of interesting ideas in The Moneymaker and in the video, which was filmed by Autumn DeWild, who filmed a lot of music videos.

I mean, like, Elliot Smith and I feel like Beck. I don't know. She's, like, worked with everyone. It seems like, anyways, the music video for the Moneymaker feature. like actual porn stars that they auditioned and then like got them to like talk about their lives and how they got into sex work. And then we're like, oh yeah, this is for a music video, which a lot of reporters really delighted in asking them about in this way. That's like very uncomfortable. But the video is like set in a sex shop and like Jenny Lewis is she's like really

embracing like her sexuality. Maybe it is to that point like she was performing the role of like a sexy pop star, but that's also part of her. I mean, now she rocks hot pants, the little tuxedo onesie. Like, wasn't she born in Las Vegas? Like, this is her birthright. Yeah. So I think people were definitely like, wow, Riloh Kiley has sold out. They're like singing about sex and like it's all really glossy. But she was always singing about sex since like day one. Yeah. And I mean, I think like the money maker, does that mean vagina? Yeah, it's a great music industry metaphor also. Oh, no. Okay.

And about the vagina. It could be both. Oh, it also means vagina. Okay. Just making sure that I wasn't misreading. No, no, no. Misreading the song. But yeah, that song, I mean, Silver Linings is the hit, but I feel like Moneymaker is like the real meat of under the black light. She's like playing bass in like a skimpy little outfit, which is so cool to me, in my opinion. But it reminded me a lot of all the Billy Elish stuff with like her on the Vogue cover and like people being like who's forcing you to be sexual essentially. And like no one was forcing Jenny Lewis to be sexual.

Yeah. Who put the gun to your head? Yeah. Like Warner was not like okay. We need at least one music video that's like hot. I think there were a lot of bad conversations about like agency probably around this time and people not thinking like. She's 31 years old. Yeah, exactly. Like, you know, she's, I'm sure making her own decisions and wanting to, like, embrace her sexuality and coming into her own.

And, you know, I'm sure at this time, like, you are on your fourth album. You've made a solo album. Again, there's some fame. There's some success. It must feel good to just, like, do what you want and be who you want to be and try on different people.

And, you know, it is, again, like, not to say this for the thousand times, she's a theater kid. So, like, trying on different personas and presenting them to the world is truly, like, I would assume, in her bones at this point. Yeah. And I like what she says about, you know, the hot pants. Wearing hot pants is one side of her. Right. Or being brawless. Wait, that's a one. I have to read this.

There's an LA Times profile by The Goat and Powers. Oh. It says, there's a girl on a table. Tank Toppo appears in the lyrics of Smoke Detector. She is not wearing a bra and she cries danger when she hits the dance floor. Jenny Lewis created this character, but she can't completely relate. It's not me. I always wear a bra.

Could it be. Folks could not be me. The girl without a bra is a real person. Jason Bosel. Rial O'Chaly's drummer quickly chimed in. We saw her dancing at a Paul Frank party on the grounds of Wild Rivers, the water park. She didn't seem cool. But at that moment, she was hot.

That's right. I said Paul Frank party. It's 2007. Wow. Wait, at a water park? That's right. Wild rivers. Interesting.

Interesting. L.A. is a crazy place. I don't know what the fuck was going on. Producer Dillon says it would have been the best day of her life. Wow. Ma'am. I need a, where is she now about this girl? Which one of your onesies would you have worn to that party, producer Dillon?

She laughed in the chat. She said, ha-ha. L-A-W? Full American apparel. Like the one, probably that American apparel, one that like had a halter neck. Do you remember I was a little rooshed in the front?

Yeah. With the shiny headband. I can see it for you guys. Those are the times. Those were the days. They were truly sometimes. It's really interesting to me, and I can't quite grasp it,

like where Riloh-Kiley lived on the spectrum of fame at this point. Because they're not, like these songs aren't on pop radio, right? I think silver linings was, I mean, no, I don't think this was on pop radio. Because I think this is also like Gwen Stefani solo slash Fergie solo era, you know, where they're making their Love Angel music baby. Fergolicious, my body stays vicious. I'm up in the gym.

I'm just working on my fitness. Those albums have come out. this is like she's definitely not and I say she which I mean Riloh Kiley she the band Rylokiley who is female is not that is not that level of famous right I mean there's no I guess like a good question be did you go see them play around this time no producer Dylan did you go see them play around this time I don't think I did because I think probably around the time that I was like going to shows I was maybe slightly over them. I have a hunch they were like, like theater big, you know, like slightly bigger than the big clothes.

No, they played the Greek theater. Their last show was at the Greek theater in 2008. But they're also L.A. They're in L.A. band. So I feel like that's true. Of course. The rest is like 930 club. I'm going to look up some Seattle touchdowns.

930 club, but just not that big Terminal 5. Terminal 5. Yeah. House of Blues, Cleveland. Okay, yeah. So they're not that big. They're big. Yeah.

they played like the showbox in Seattle, which is like the one kind of biggest club. They did play Coachella. In 2008. Okay. So, sorry, just situating myself because I guess I just can't quite understand. Yeah. No, I didn't see, I never saw Riley Kylie and I would have had to go to like Atlanta or I would have had to travel and I didn't have a driver's license at that point. Cue Olivia Rodriguez.

But apparently Silver Linings was on the alternative adult alternative airplay. hit number 30. What is that even, a doll of a train of airplay? I guess, I don't know. It was serious XM around at that point? I don't know if that's like a serious thing. It was a little hard.

They kind of came a little late to the part where they would have gotten famous. Like by 2005, six, we're once again in the no man's land of music and it's not, you know, I think it's like modest mouth eaked in

at the last moment. and death cab to a lesser extent, but like they didn't, I think it was just a little bit late. Yeah, it is kind of an awkward in between period. Like there are a lot of really good bands that are like just coming out around that time, but this is Riley's last album.

They clearly are moving on to different things. Like obviously we were talking earlier about they were a beloved live journal band, but like Tumblr wasn't like really as big of a thing at this point. They're a band that I think has really, really also,

as much as they were beloved by fans while they were around, especially once they broke up, I think people, like I said before, just like that Riley Kylie fans will always find each other. Yeah, I think that's true. Again, 2007 was not the year

that they were going to break through just a smattering for you of the top selling albums of 2007. Daughtry, big monster dominating record. Modest Mouse made it on the charts So did a lot of other people apparently The Fallout Boy album Infinity on High

The Avril Levine album The Best Damn Thing Lots of Michael Bublay Some people get their kiss Stomping on your dreams It was Kanye West graduation You should be honest by my lateness That I would even show up to this fake shit to go ahead go nuts, go 80.

Carrie Underwood. Josh Groban closed out the year with his Noel album. So it was a tough time for an Indygon pop rock band to break through. Yes, I mean, at this time, I was jamming to Rilu Kiley, but also the Pussy Cat Dolls. It was buttons, if you will. Good song. I was walking around my neighborhood the other day. to the pussycat dolls and I felt I felt wrong. I had to turn it off. I was like,

oh my god. Honestly, don't you wish your girlfriend was mentally ill like your favorite podcaster? Me? New theme song. We must get it hired. Um, okay. So you, you said it. This was the last Ril O'Kiley album. Yes, RIP. Page 4 gave it a 5.1. They didn't like it. Yeah. I read that review right before this. That was the only other one. I'm obsessed. Again, it's more, because it's an archived one. It doesn't have the name, but I'm dying to know who wrote it because there's one line that, yeah, exactly. Producer Dillon has highlighted. She reads my mind. It's actually quite freakish. There's a line in it that it's their Project Mersh, an alternate universe sellout move. Okay, Project Mersh is a Minuteman album.

And I just want to know who this person was writing for. who is both a huge Minuteman fan and a huge Riloh-Kiley fan in 2007. Again, I'm sure that person exists and I'm not trying to disparage the people that do share those two interests. Maybe that's Olivia Rodriguez. Maybe those are the posters on her wall.

But it is. It seems that maybe this person was not, producer John says, I don't get the sense of this person was a Ryl-O-Ciley fan to begin with. It seems like they were like given this to take it down. Yeah, and that's kind of how all of the pitchwork reviews are of Rilukyli.

Like, people are coming in with a, even on the first album, like a preconceived notion of what Rilkehle Kylie are going to be like. And I don't know if that's because of the, just the small detail that it's fronted by a female, a female, a woman. A female in a onesie. Or like, yeah, a female in a onesie with red hair. But yeah, no, I think there was just immediate inclination to find them. you know, incorrectly, I would say. I know. And you have said multiple times.

And that's why we brought you here. I will say, you know, one person who does love females, Robert Criscoe. I mean that more in the sense of he does seem to always get it and support women like Jenny Lewis and Riloh-Kiley. And, like, he, you know, we noticed it on the Liz Phair episode. Like he consistently, even against the grain of what other critics were like dying to take her down, was able to see through and really like understand and appreciate. Particularly I've noticed a lot of female artists do and I think that's really cool. And Rylot Kelly is no exception. You know, he loved under the black light.

He gave it an A. He said, Turs and Beattie with Dr. Ray referral, Mike Elizondo going half on the baby. Half on the baby. Yeah, the whole first sentence is, it's poetry, but it's hard for me to say. This isn't a pop record, but it does avoid guitar band shapes, sonics, and truisms. Now, that's a real music writer sentence. Yeah, he's like, just, I have a thesaurus. Yeah.

But anyways, all this to say, he gets it. He loves it. Yeah. Earlier, his comment about like she was a wet dream for indie boys and, like, that definitely, like, you know, offended me on some level, taking it on a face value of like, oh, he's like objectifying her or whatever. But to your point, like as you said, it's true. That's a very correct, it's a very correct observation. Literally objectify me, Daddy. I don't want, I want people to be like, yeah, she's also hot. She's hot. She's hot and she can play the guitar. I don't, I'm tired of people appreciating my mind.

Actually, I would prefer that you would stop objectifying my mind and start objectifying my gorgeous face and the perfect body. up here, nothing up here at all. Nothing smooth, only no thoughts. Chris Cowell also gave this album four stars in Rolling Stone. So, again, big fan. Enemy did call them Garden State indie. A tiny bit cookie with a country twang and a Dylan record framed on the wall, but ultimately safe, complacent music for safe, complacent people. Your thoughts, Quinn? I would not call the moneymaker a safe complacent song, I have to say. Yeah, suck it, enemy. Yeah, I know like Silver Linings has become kind of, I'm sure it's been licensed a lot and I feel like I saw some tweet. I was like looking up Riley Kylie tweets earlier that someone heard it like waiting to board a Delta plane or something. Like that song has,

that has that song has like long lasting appeal. But nothing wrong with that. I hear Best Coast songs at the fucking cheesecake factory all the time and I'm goddamn proud of it. I think it's a wonderful thing. That's so cool. I've never been to Cheesecake Factory, but that's like what I would want to hear anywhere, really. Quinn, what's happening? You've never been to the cheesecake factory, babe? No, there wasn't one where I grew up. Quinn, you've long since left where you grew up, babe. What's been happening in the last 15 years?

Nothing, apparently. I'm going to take you to a cheesecake factory. Please, please. I can't. I've simply gone to Olive Garden for the lobster. Unless salad and breadsticks. We've diverged a little bit from what we were talking about. I guess, like, part of that is right, though, right?

Like part of it, Ryle Lkela is Garden State indie. Yeah. I'm not saying that's not a value judgment. That's just simply true, right? It is true. In that milieu, I actually am curious because an Emmy then also calls it Americana Light indie. I wonder how well this kind of music did in the UK. Yeah, I remember reading.

Like were the shins big in the UK? Speaking of Garden State. I read an NMEE profile of Ryle L Kylie. I don't think it was, I don't know which album it was around now that I think of it, but, okay, meeting half of the LA Quartet, this is from 2005. Riloh Kylie in a London hotel room, my first thought is how much nicer this pair are. That doesn't make sense, pair. Oh, meeting half. As in more thoughtful, less preoccupied with their effect than most of their Brit rock equivalence. In fact, singer Jenny Lewis and drummer Jason Bozell admit to being a bit worried as to how their countryified story songs. songs will play over with the media circus over here. Okay. Yeah.

I mean, they're not, they're not France Ferdinand. Right. So this article says, because more adventurous didn't come out on Saddle Creek, chances are hardly anybody in the UK would ever have known of its release, much less actually heard it. So it did help them get a more international audience. It did not help them stay a band, though. No.

No. And, you know, I think, I don't know. I think that's for the best. Talk about that. Why do you think that's for the best? I mean, Jenny Lewis went on to write Acid Tongue, which is an incredible album. And I just feel like she has really flourished as a songwriter in the time since Riley Kylie broke up.

She's like maintained a level. Everyone respects Jenny Lewis. Everyone loves Jenny Lewis. She does her craft and she does it well. And she opened for Harry Styles. She sure did. Yeah. But specifically about the break.

I mean, I think like in 2010, they like said they were like on a hiatus or something. Classic. Classic pre-breakup statement. Yeah. And then like, oh, like who knows what's going to happen? And then in 2011, Blake, like, I think it was in an interview with consequence of sound, had this quote where they asked him about the state of Riloh-Kiley. And he said, quote, I would say that if Riloh-Kiley were a human being,

he's probably laying on his back in a morgue with a tag on his toe. Now I see movies where the dead get up and walk. And when they do that, rarely do good things happen. So that's, you know. It's a little dramatic. Yeah, it's definitely a little dramatic. And I think there's another quote where he said something to the effect of like Rilu Kiley was full of like deception and lies. Oh, yeah, it's this one.

I just felt like there was a lot of deception, disloyalty, greed and things I don't really want to submit myself to. I had related that frustration to music, but I just thought I'm not going to put myself in that position again. And so I said, fuck that. I can't do this anymore. I was mad at music. And it wasn't music's fault. It was our fault as band members or partners or friends. And that's really real.

I mean, I watched Get Back. I get it. It's hard to be in a group of people working together and collaborating. It's hard to be in a group of people. Yeah. It's what I always say at night when I put on psych and stay home. Yeah, for sure. It's hard.

I mean, it's a little easier to not give statements. about it to the media, but it's okay that, you know, who knows what all that means? It's kind of inevitable that it was gonna get a little acrimonious given to come full circle the intention of the formation of Ryle-O-Kiley being a Blake's project initially that, you know, Jenny Lewis grew more and more and more into and took over.

Yeah, she eclipsed it and, you know, I mean, thank God she did because we have these great albums. Obviously, the ending sounds tense and difficult, but it is kind of a nice full circle moment in the narrative, I would say. Do you prefer Jenny Lewis solo to Ryleau Kylie? No. Well, I think they're really different. I definitely prefer Riloh Kiley, I think.

But that is probably due to a lot more of the, like, nostalgia I associate with Riloh Kiley. But I've only seen Jenny Lewis once, and it was. was at Terminal 5, actually. And Girlpool were opening for her, and they had invited me to come through. This was like when they had, like, just released an EP. I don't think they had an album yet. And we went up and helped with the balloon drop at the end of the show. And I remember she played some Riloh Kiley songs. And it was like the coolest thing ever. That's nice. I mean, I'll always listen to a Jenny Lewis solo album. And I think she's like an incredible songwriter. But it's hard to replace Riloha Kiley in my heart. Yeah. I think you're not alone in that. I guess we've sort of. reached the end of the Riloha Phailly journey here. But I know like Blake came out with Jenny at Coachella to do portions for foxes in like some year. And then they released like that archives thing,

archives literally. And they, I know like Blake and Jenny performed a song on Linda Perry's like COVID live stream. So I don't know if I'd ever want a new Riloh Kylie album. I mean, I have really mixed feelings about like reunion stuff in general. Sure. I like when they reunite and play a show. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But I'm also like, go ahead and put out an album. I'm maybe not going to listen to it, but put it out.

So hopefully, you know, hopefully time has healed some wounds there. It sounds like it has. I mean, it's truly insane to me given, like, the idea of being in the same room as your ex-boyfriend, let alone in the same band as him for X amount of years and, like, your work and finances tied to each other. And there was some great Jenny Lewis quote where she talked about how she's always writing songs that are really personal. Do you remember this?

I did. When I was in Rialkeke-oldke, my boyfriend at the time, and then my ex-boyfriend, and then partner in crime in the band. I would just write these really mean songs about him and then sing them on the same stage as him and he would have no idea they were about him.

To me insane. Yeah. But also, I wonder if he didn't, like, did he not know that they were about him? I bet you think the song is about you. Don't you? Well, before we fully end this episode, I have brought you some of your people, your community,

some more Riloh Kylie fans to, I have to say this was perhaps the most responded to call for fans that we've ever experienced. It was producer Dylan's highest performing tweet ever, which is a cell phone for producer Dylan also. but let's hear all the people. We have to cut it off. Let's hear the people that got in before the caught off.

Oh, wow. I first heard Riloh Kiley, my freshman year of high school, and it was an instant obsession. From that moment on, I tried with all my might to basically become Jenny Lewis. I cut all of my skirts into micro minis, and I wore them over pants, and I cut all the collars off my vintage t-shirts from the thrift store.

I wore, like, ugly 80s pumps. I can't think of another band where the stylistic and sonic progression and maturity over time is so apparent without damaging or impacting the transparency and vulnerability that made them so accessible in the first place. When I at first discovered them, I was in pretty deep lows of depression and an eating disorder, and I found that I could really connect to the lyrics, and it really spoke to me. And I think for the first time, when I was in this really low place of, like, maybe I'm not totally alone. and maybe there's a little bit of hope as well.

I think they're the perfect band. They float somewhere between Chesterfield King and Only in Dreams and Silver Springs. There's a sweetness and a vulnerability to them, a grimy dime store poetry and a touch of intimacy. And that sounds great on paper, but it doesn't work unless you absolutely whip ass, and they do. I first came to Rilo Kylie's music when I was deep in my early bright eyes,

death cab phase. And aside from maybe Haley Williams, Jenny Lewis was probably the first woman I saw fronting a band that was otherwise all dudes. They were just like the quintessential Los Angeles band. When Jenny went to do her solo albums and everything, it just reminded me of home. Even though I'm out of musician myself, I work in a field that's often really overrun with male opinions. And I'm not sure I would have felt so confident in my career now if I hadn't seen Jenny be so confident herself. She also maintained a sort of femininity that was.

worked in conjunction with this really often gruesome honesty in her lyrics. She was my Beyonce. Like, she was my pop star. I was so obsessed with her. And I just felt like the obsession was really that she just seemed like such a regular girl. I would, like, ditch first period in high school. And I would, like, drive to the Starbucks in Pasadena and chain smoke and read Charles

Vakowski and listen to Riloh-Kiley and just feel truly seen. I feel like Rialo Kiley. Kylie is big sister rock because so many of my friends big sisters were the reason why I started listening to Riloh Kiley. And then I also in turn got my little sister into Riloh Kiley. I think Riloh Kiley reminds me of my friendship with my sister and just kind of like that age of like sitting in my grandparents' house and like discovering music online. Kind of like a group that like really early on show me like there's all these really cool bands that are fronted by women or have women members.

And, like, the writing is great and music's so great. I went to every single show, truly. I was, like, a deadhead for Rilkeye, where I followed them around. Every time I see her play those songs live, I just burst into tears. And she's just the best. Nobody can scream the word fuck as eloquently as Jenny Lewis. Truly, my queen, and the reason why I started making music. I would never have written a song or started to be.

best coast or done anything in my life musically had it not been for Jenny Lewis, truly the Beyonce to every indie girl. I mean, those are your people, Quinn. I feel like I'm going to cheer up. Literally, me too, from the information that Bethany sat at Starbucks reading Bikowsky and smoking cigarettes, I'm like on well from this information. She's like, she's like definitely like a guy I dated. was Bethany also the one who said like cutting her skirts into micromini's and wearing

moving jeans because that Jenny Lewis really rocked that look and that's coming back so you know she sure did wow there are so many beautiful beautiful comments that speak to just how much her work has impacted people and I think one of the things that's also really great is that she knows that and the fact that she still plays Riloh Kylie songs at her solo shows I mean she wrote them so like who's to say she can't. But like, you know, sometimes artists are like, I don't want to play things from my past or whatever, like my old band. But those songs are really important to people.

And like, she knows. And that's really cool as a fan. The Beyonce of Indy Girls, as Bethanya so eloquently said. Well, Quinn, thank you so much for taking all this time to talk about Riloha Kylie with me, to walk down memory lane, hand in hand, skipping in our saddle shoes. through the history of Rialo Kiley. To end the episode,

why don't you choose one last Rialo Kiley song to leave the listeners with? It can be any song that we haven't already played that is a really favorite of yours or something you really want to push home here as we end the episode. I think I'll pick with arms outstretched. I feel like that's a really good closing song to end on.

Good, gorgeous. Thank you. I know, I almost said with arms. With arms, right, oh, perhaps. It's a different song. Thank you again, Quinn. Come back next week for a new episode of Bandsplain, and this is with arms outstretched.

If you liked what you heard today, subscribe for more episodes of Bansplaine, only on Spotify. Our guest today was Quinn Morland. Follow her on Twitter at Quinn Morland. Huge, huge thanks to the Riloh-Kiley Mega fans you heard on this episode. Josephine Dunaway, Carolyn Hirsch,

Shane Degan, Matt Malayhos, Kelsey Goals, Abby Jones, and Bethany Kosentino of Bascos. This episode was produced by My Better Son slash daughter, producer Dylan, aka Dylan Tupper Rupert, and edited by Matthew Chellele with help from Casey Simonson, Shannon Cornett, and Kelly Kyle. Executive producers for Bansplain are Gina Dalbeck and me, Yossi Song. Our gorgeous and catchy theme song was composed and performed by Bethany Cozantino and Jennifer Clavin and graciously recorded by Carlos Dela Garza in Los Angeles, California. special thanks to Robert Adler, Leah Edwards, David McDonough, Dana Meyerson, Jessica Hopper, and snacks.

Come back every Thursday for a new episode of Bandsblane, only on Spotify. The best I could come on. Mood soda! We already thanked Mood Soda last time.