Bandsplain - The-Dream with Rob Harvilla

Episode Date: May 6, 2021

Superproducer The-Dream, aka Terius Nash, was behind some of the 2000s biggest pop hits: Umbrella by Rihanna, Single Ladies by Beyonce, even Baby by Justin Beiber. What’s lesser known is the intensity of the cult following that his solo R&B output amassed around the late 2000s. The Ringer’s Rob Harvilla comes on the pod to explain The-Dream’s influence and dissect his “lascivious, pristine R&B sex jams” (his words). Follow Rob Harvilla at @harvilla on Twitter and listen to his The Ringer podcast, 60 Songs That Explain the 90s, only on Spotify. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's with this band anyway? I don't get it. Can you please explain? Wait, like, Bansplaine? I am Yassie Sallek, and this is Bandsplaine, a show where we explain cult artists with the help of pedigreed experts who talk real good while I talk real bad. Today's episode is about The Dream. If you don't know who the dream is, I do not blame you because I don't really know either.

This is what The Dream sounds like. Today's guest is a man with a cult fandom all his own, writer and podcaster Rob Harvilla of The Ringer Fame. You may also know him from his gorgeous, wonderful podcast, 60 songs that explain the 90s. Welcome to the show, Rob. How you doing? It's an honor to be here. I have to tell you, I've been listening to your show for months. I've been preparing to be on your show for weeks, and I realized last night that our shows both have spleen in the name. I had not made that connection previously.

It's very exciting. It's like name a more iconic explanatory duo than the two of us. Name a more iconic crossover moment. Absolutely. Full disclosure. I have very minimal familiarity with the dream. We are really doing this episode because you pitched a couple of ideas. I sent them over to my right hand, the wind beneath my wings,

without whose support I could not live, producer Dylan, and producer Dylan was like, we have to do the dream. The dream is the best. I love the dream. And because like she's young and hip, and I was like, well, I'm kind of old and out of touch. I'll listen to producer Dylan.

So that's why we're doing the dream. And I'm here to be educated. I'm going to do my best. It's a great task that I've set for myself. I am old and hip. Definitely old, questionably hip. I'm going to do my very best for you today. Tragically.

hip precisely. Okay. So why don't you start from the beginning? Tell us who is the hyphen dream. Right. This is a very long answer. So whenever, if you want to just hit a gong, whenever you want me to stop explaining, yes, the hyphen dream for copyright reasons.

The dream is an R&B singer and songwriter from Atlanta who emerged in the mid to late 2000. His name is Terius Nash. He was born in North Carolina, but he moved to a. Atlanta when he was two. He's from Atlanta. He sort of works at the nexus of R&B and rap and pop. I would say he is a superstar A-list game-changing songwriter and producer. He works often with a guy named Christopher Tricky Stewart. You know, pop songwriting is a group effort, like sort of a mysterious realm for We Immortals. But like if you know nothing about the dream, the first three songs, you should know that he had a hand in writing and producing our real.

Diana's umbrella in 2007. Beyonce's single ladies put a ring on it in 2008. And Justin Bieber's baby in 2010. Just like three little songs that no one's ever heard. Precisely. I did not make anyone's careers. Yeah, they made his career. I mean, these three songs alone comprise like just a full worldview, like a grand.

unified theory of R&B and rap and pop. And he's got credits on hundreds of songs, Me Against the World by Britney Spears, Sierra's Ride, Mariah Carey's Touch My Body, Beyonce's Countdown and Partition. All of these songs together made him very rich and very powerful. And he parlayed this into sort of a cult solo career as the dream, which began in 2007 and continues to this day.

But his first three albums, love hate in 2007, love versus money in 2009, and Love King in 2010, sort of stand apart as just these stupendous, vibrant, ridiculous, lascivious, pristine, like, R&B, sex jam pantions. You know, I can dance around it, but I'm just, I wish that you and I had had a prior face-to-face conversation before I just jumped on Zoom and just said sex jams to you. Sex jams, I know, that's true. I'm calling the police. I'm Midwestern. I was raised Catholic. This is a very unnatural mode for me. It's him. It's not me. It's him. Everything, everything from this point forward is him. As a solo artist, he's never had a hit remotely commensurate with Rihanna or Beyonce or Kanye or Drake or any of these people that he still works with. There's like a pretty sharp low ceiling to his fame as a pop star in his own right. And it has this weird dichotomy of making him both like this superstar A-lister sort of. pop star whisperer, but also like an underdog.

You know, there, and as a musician, there's just this profound buoyant lightness to him, but also these glimpses of like a vast personal darkness, which we ought to address at some point. Like he sings so tenderly and generously, but he is also like Kanye West caliber full of himself. You know, there's all this light and shadow to him that's really fascinating if you buy into him. Why, besides maybe the obvious, do you think that he wanted to be a solo artist? Like, do you feel that there was some artistic impulse that he was like, I have songs that I want to

own, that these are really my songs, and I want to sing them, and I want them to be my songs? I mean, everyone, I guess, not everyone, a lot of people want to be famous, so that's low-hanging fruit, but, like, to put that much of your heart and soul into it for this long, and, and, you know, and to be an artist. Like there has to be some impulse past fame, right? No, I think so. His mother died when he was a teenager, I believe, somewhere in the mid-90s. And he talks a lot about how she played him, like Al Green and Sam Cook.

If I'm not mistaken, he did like a Sam Cook covers album. It might have been like a title-only deal. I'm not quite sure the deal. But I think instilled in him at that point was like respect for the greats. And this is, of course, Michael and Prince and R. Kelly and stuff like that. But it was instilled in him that he wanted to be great like that. And I think that did get tied up with his mother and what his mother had taught him and played for him. And he started writing songs when his mother died is how he puts it.

And I believe the last song on his first record on Love, Hate, is about his mother. And it's very touching and beautiful. And so if you're looking for motivation, yes, beyond the obvious, I think that's it. Why don't we play a song? Sometimes we would say, hey, here's the song you know. But do you think there is one of those? And if not, why don't we hear a song to start? I definitely don't think there is a solo The Dream song that you know.

I think we should start with a song that he wrote and made popular. And I am operating under the assumption that nobody needs to hear umbrella again. Rihanna's umbrella. But yes, but that is the key, I think, to his whole career. Ella, Ella, Ella, Ella, A, A, A, A, A, A, unlocks his whole career. Like, the idea that perfect pop songs arrive as Thunderbolts to you, the listener, and you want to believe that they arrive that way to the songwriter as well.

But, like, the way songs are written is, like, somebody in a studio, you know, just speaking, singing nonsense syllables for 12 hours over a drum loop until they get like the right thing in their head. And so Ella, Ella, Ella, Ella, you're left wondering, like, is this song done? You know, like, did he do this on purpose? Like a crucial feeling to have during a song that involves the dream is just, what? And so that was so perfectly encapsulated on umbrella, but I think everybody has heard umbrella. And so I want to play you a song called Bed by an artist named Jay Holliday, an R&B singer from D.C.

This was in 2007. Jay Holliday is a better singer than The Dream, which feels important to say. He has more range. There's more flamboyance. He just sounds more like an aspiring pop star. But this is Jay Holliday's big moment. I don't want to denigrate him at all. I'm sure he's doing great.

But I saw Jay Holliday sing this song in a J&R music and computer world in Lower Manhattan in 2009. It was a big moment for me. He never quite made it the way the dream would go on to make it. The bed was my favorite song for three years from the moment it came out. 2007 to the end of the decade, this was my favorite song. It's just such a beautiful and witty and hilarious and ridiculous sex jam. And I still, I listened to it. You said it again.

I did. I'm going to, oh, God. This is one of my favorite songs of all time. It is Bed by Jay Holliday, co-written and co-produced by The Dream. You are listening to a music and talk episode where full songs and talk segments live together in gorgeous harmony only on Spotify. Guess what? You can also create your own music and talk show for free with Anchor, Spotify's podcasting platform. Get started at anchor.fm slash music and talk.

That's anchor.com. slash music and talk. Okay, that was Bed by Jay Holliday. As a woman who also likes to be infantilized because it makes me feel small. And as a person who does work 9 to 5 and stay cute, this song did speak to me. I'm really glad. I'm really relieved to hear that. It's good.

I could hear the Ella Ella Ella A in the Just AAA. He does that. I see that that's a technique. It's a motif. It will reoccur for the rest of his career, the dream's career, whether he's singing or not, like these melodies and these riffs. And it's it's him reminding you of his past successes more than anything else. But yeah, it is a nice through line to all the ridiculousness to come. I've said this on the show before, but I just need to bring it up again, that like after dating several musicians and learning that all the,

the words they put into songs are not 1,000% deeply felt and meaned. And they're just kind of trying to shoehorn what sounds good into the song. I've never been able to look at music the same. It's all a lie.

You're kind of just been dating the wrong musicians. That's another podcast. Talk to me about bed. Bed. The key to that song, the other key to that song is the line I'm going to send you out into the world with my love, which I have always found absurd,

but also like legitimately touching because the woman gets to leave at the end of the song. And I think that's really nice. If these songs do not grant the woman involved like an interior life, at least she gets an exterior life. You know what I'm saying? Like she's not like a cardboard cutout that the singer is singing to or humping. You know what I'm saying? like there's there's actual I am granting you some level of agency at least theoretically. And I've always found that enormously touching and I have just always fantasized about singing this song at karaoke.

But then I like, I picture the faces of the other people in the room as I'm singing this song and as they're grasping the lyrics and the concept of this song. And I'm like, no, I should never do this even if I was, you know, vocally capable of doing this. It's a very complex series of reactions I have. But yeah, I just, I loved this song. They would be extremely upset. It would be an HR situation, whether I worked with those people or not. They would go talk to their personal HR. So I don't know.

I just, this was the iTunes era, you know, where I would click on my top 25 played iTunes songs and just be like, yes, this is my personality. And bed was number one again from, you know, for three to four to five years. and I don't know what that says about me. It's alarmed. You know what it says about me, and I'm glad that you know, though I am a little alarmed to find out that you are alarmed. I'm learning this now.

13, 14 years later, this has all been a terrible mistake. Well, I think that's a really generous read that he's giving the woman agency and not that he's like sending her on her way because his wife will be home soon. Or would have. That would be another interpretation.

Can you go now back to your 9 to 5 job? Bye-bye. Okay. Well, I think one thing I was thinking while I was listening to that song was that like, because that song came out what in like 2007? I think I looked it up. Yeah. How much R&B and not all R&B, but like R&B was at one time like kind of one of the most popular

genres in pop and on the radio and stuff and it kind of fell away. for a while. And I think while it fell away, I'm riffing here. I have no facts to base this. While it fell away, it kind of got freed up to become weirder. I think that's very true.

And that song is kind of weird. Like it's kind of a weird R&B song. It's kind of spare. Like there's lots of drums. No, I know what you're saying. It sounds, again, like the Ella, Ella, Ella, Ella, it sounds half finished. It sounds like 70 to 80% done.

It sounds skeletal. you know sometimes he'll use like presets on garage band or whatever for his drum patterns and people are like how can you do that and he's like you make a hit song with this like he's it's he works so fast the dream does it is as a writer and as a as a star and he's so prolific and he's just pounding these songs out and he's doing them so incredibly fast and part of the reason is because they are allowed to emerge into the world and sometimes be huge hits sounding like not I think incomplete, but incomplete in a way that feels right. And weird is definitely, it's very weird. Everything the dream does, good, bad, or ill is very weird.

Which might explain why he never got a pop star famous, but we'll get there. Why don't we hear a song that is by the hyphen dream himself, just as a comparison. Absolutely. Also in 2007, he put out his first album, which was called Love, Hate. He had a couple minor hits off this album that I could play for you but won't. There was one called Shawty is the Shit. There was one called I Love Your Girl. I feel ridiculous saying both of those titles to you, but I've committed.

You know, the whole album is incredible. It's hooky and it's bawdy and it's silly. I wish I didn't have to say this, but the truth is I don't think there is a single artist more important as a precedent for the dream than R. Kelly. I think that the dream took a great deal from R. Kelly in terms of making these sort of boudoir situations, but making them silly and making them witty and making them fun. The dream will go on to write a song, I think it's on his third album, called Kelly's 12 play, which is about having sex to the first R. Kelly's album. And, you know, it's still on streaming today. Like, he is committed to this. And so there's two songs on Lerkelly's.

love hates that stay with me. And the first one is called falsetto. And the premise of falsetto is, I am going to make love to you with such vigor that you're going to sing in falsetto. And for the chorus of this song, I will demonstrate how you're going to sing in falsetto. And so the chorus of this song is the dream simulating having sex with a dream. And at this point, the woman ain't even got to be there. I like how you're just like barreling through this. as if, like, I don't need time to process. I feel like if I... Like, what you're saying to me right now.

I could pack a lot of HR violations into a small space and just sort of blow past you is the idea. Like, I'm just inundating you. So this is an auto sex anthem. I don't think that he intended it that way. But I find sometimes with the dreams, loopier, boudoir situations that they're so detailed and designed and art directed and stage direct. and stage directed, you think, like, if the woman left the room, would he even notice? You know, like, you just go, youep, and you take the woman out of the room, and he's still in there, like, yes, look at this. Look at these candles.

Like, there's a point where the staging becomes more erotic than the act itself. And this is where the dream seems to thrive. Should we hear the clip of this auto sex chorus that you speak of? Please, please, please play falsetto. And I'm going to go dig a hole and lie in it for a while. Okay. This is as ridiculous as I have ever felt in my whole entire life. You did this to yourself.

I just want you. I'm going to need a great deal of therapy. You think you're going to need therapy after this. But I lost my original to a juggalo, babe. There's never going to be enough therapy to save me. Don't you worry about me. Okay. what's a really good song off of love, hate?

And maybe do you want to pick one that's like, here's where you really hear the R. Kelly homage? Or do you just want to pick one that's like really, really good? I think Nikki hits both. I think Nikki is one of the dream's signature songs. And it's sort of the flip side to falsetto. It's like a breakup song. It's wounded.

It's resentful. It's about his new woman. I've been making love to Nikki. And there's plenty of. resentful are Kelly songs too. And I as the dreams career and personal life in the public eye evolves, like it's a battle between the bliss of falsetto and sort of the fury of this song of Nikki. It's like it's a very satisfying, insolent, resentful song. And Nikki as a character and as an idea will pop up in his work from now on. I, I don't remember who said it, but I saw something once that like someone

said that this song directly fuels Kanye West's 808s and heartbreak, which came out in 2008 and just had a very similar sound and a very similar vibe. It's just like, I am a sad, wronged, disgruntled man, slowly fusing with my computer. And that's all conveyed by Nikki, which is definitely one of the dreams. Very best songs. You're going to love it. I guarantee you you're going to love this song. Okay, let's hear Nikki off love hate. Okay, I don't know how to say this, so I'll just say it. This song has the energy of like when a guy comes up to you at the bar and is like, hey, you're so beautiful, you know, what's up?

And you're like, oh, you know, I'm not really interested. He's like, whatever, you're fucking ugly anyway. Is that bad? That's what this song sounds like to me. Is that bad? When someone like that comes? That's fair. Babe, why are you so mad?

Why are you so mad, babe, at the person that you seem to say that you don't care? You said you erased them from your mind. You wrote a whole angry song about them. Like many thousands of songs. I would be very upset. Arguably, yes. The way he keeps singing, she loves me back and it's degrading. Like, yeah, I don't think it's hard to tell what's actually happening here.

Yeah. Okay, I have a question here. I assume that the dreams, you know, a formidable power, it may be being a hip, hitmaker is what got him, you know, the license and ability to make his own album, right? Like someone was like, okay, we'll put on your solo album. How was it received? It was received very well, but as a cult phenomenon, as a critical phenomenon. These first three records were very well reviewed, you know, and like year-end lists and stuff

like that by men like myself who rule the world. Or at least did at this time. But the streets did not get us what you're saying. In terms of like chart placement, no, they were not. Why do you think, I'd like to you to speculate on why the dream did not get the radio and top 40 love that you and your critic friends believe he richly deserved. That's sort of the fascinating thing about him is that he has both you. liquidous and sort of unknown. You know, he was, when he started out, people would write things like he's going to be the next

neo or the next usher or something. And it just, it was never, ever going to happen like that. And I, that's the weirdness and sort of the scabrousness of his music. If that's, he's just not, he just doesn't have the look. He just doesn't have the vibe. He just did not have the intangible, you know, overpowering star power that Ariana has, that it'd Beyonce has, Kanye has, JZ, Usher, whoever you want to name, all these people who still work with the dream to this day, Mariah Carey. He is capable of singing through them, using them as

his mouthpiece, or singing alongside them, helping them. But he just, he cannot stand up there by himself and be that guy. And I do think at the bottom, it is just an intangible thing. I mean, he's not like a, he's a fine-looking handsome enough dude, you know, he's not like a troll or anything, but it's just, he was on the cover of vibe, I believe the last cover of vibe with Christina Million. And it's like, it's like a sexy shoot, you know, like modeled after the Janet Jackson Rolling Stone cover. And he just, he has a look on his face that's just not quite comfortable. You know, he's comfortable with the nudity. but he's not quite comfortable with the magazine cover aspect. It's just, I, you know, I can't speak for everyone else who loved the dream critics and otherwise, you know, at the time that he was at his height. But I don't think it's that we were upset or we were rooting for him to sort of break that ceiling and become this huge star.

I think part of what was so appealing about him is that he'd made it as far as he'd made it. And he could filter a song as weird as umbrella. you know, to the right A-lister who could make it a huge pop smash. And I don't think there was anyone other than Rihanna who was going to be able to do that. But there was no one else but the dream who would have written, co-written that song in the first place. Like he's just weird enough to make it big, but not big enough. That sort of weirdness subsides. I thought only women had to be hot to be famous. And it turns out I was wrong.

You know, it helps to look like Usher or at least a day. dance like Usher if you want, you know, he has songs where he talks about not being able to dance like Usher, you know, as much rubbing as we do, we can start a fire. Like he's self-deprecating about these things. He seems to know his ceiling as like any kind of sex symbol, you know, in purely the magazine cover sense. But it was pretty clear even from this record that if you buy into this, like here's somebody you can get behind who's never going to rise above.

a certain level who is always going to be yours and is never going to be folded into the mainstream as like a pop star in his own right. Yeah. You know how the thing of artists who own singing one word, you know, like Trent Rezner is the best at rhyming whole and soul. For example, the dream is the best at singing the word Patron. This constant references to Patron. In interviews, he's drinking.

making Patron and Sprite like 75% of the time. This is his thing. And it's, it's, is he sponsor? I assume. I have never looked into that, but like he had better be. He's left a lot of money on the table if he is not. But it's just I have always admired his commitments to Patron. You know, and I just, he finds a new way, a new emphasis, a new way to sing it every time.

And it's a lovely thing to me. And I have to mention here that producer Dylan has told me that she used to buy. patron when she was living in a punk house in West Oakland and got ready to go to the dream show and blacked out on it when she was 19. It just felt important. That's very important. I'm dying to say that there's also Tom DeLange says, where are you the best out of anyone else? Where are you? I'm glad that you said that. It's true. Okay. Why don't you play me a song? You know what? Why don't you play us a song? We're all in this together. That you think, is the one that you're like,

I can't believe this wasn't a hit though. Like, this is a hit. This should have been a hit. I would love to live in a world where Sweated out had been a big hit. I don't, I can't, I don't have an answer to the question of what's a song that should have been? Because I think sort of key to

his appeal is there's no song, you know, like, oh, that definitely should have been a number one hit. Like, I love that this tried, but didn't quite make it. I think it's perfect for what it is, which is a very weird, but very sweet. Again, sort of sex jam.

It's called Sweat It Out. It is on his second album, 2009's Love versus Money. And it is about having sex with a woman who just got her hair done and thereby ruining her new hairdo. This is the concept of the song. He is apologetic.

Who hasn't been? About this set of circumstances. And again, my favorite part of this song is right at the end when he sings, so go on about your day. And I know it's coming. it's not like an ad lib, it's not like a major part of the song. But again, it is sung so tenderly, so disarmingly,

that it gets me every time. And again, it's this idea that he's at least trying to humanize these women that he's singing to and about. As you say, it's like, it's the difference between, I will now permit you to leave so you can go on with your life and like, get out of my house. You know, there's another woman coming in 10 minutes. Like you can decide his motivations.

but it's a very, it's just such a sweet and weird and tender song about a very, very specific thing. And it is Sweat It Out by the Dream. That was Sweat It Out. I do hear what you're saying. This song is, I think it's quite rare. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'll just say it because that's how we roll here on Bansplane. You don't hear that many. extremely specific R-V songs, like, or pop songs in general, right?

They tend to be pretty general because that's the whole thing about pop. Like, you know, you want all your listeners to be able to apply it to their life. But this song is extremely specific, and that makes it so cool and interesting. Yes, he's got a concept. And again, that's a very R. Kelly conceit is to find some very specific and silly way to come at it, but still in keeping with like an R&B song, with a pop song, with at least theoretically, a radio song.

As you can hear in almost every song, he does, The Dream refers to himself as the Radio Killer and the R&B guerrilla. And there are many more people who would be, who would more aptly refer to themselves as the radio killer.

And so I, he was referring to his songwriting when he says that, but he's saying it on his solo. songs. And I like that he is imagining a world where these very specific and bizarre R&B songs are actually killing it on the radio. That's a very lovely sentiment. Rob, at this time, we're going to tap in producer Dylan because she would like to challenge your choice for a song that should have been a pop smash.

All right, let's do it. Come on down, producer Dylan. here I am coming down to the rodeo producer Dylan here um you know sweat it out is cool yeah um but it's wrong I feel like there is a spirit of joy in so many of his songs and we haven't hit the ones that tap into that most I you heard I think what really contributed to his like cult status was right when he came out it was kind of like this moment of peak hipster pop-timism yeah and it was also this peak moment of like indie dance pop was like hot or just sort of like tapering off choway was just coming in and like the drive soundtrack was huge you know and like there's songs like mostly off of his second album love king

where he brings in these sounds and they're kind of just like irresistible pop songs. Like at the dream shows, I feel like that's what people go crazy for. Yamaha, fall in love again, Love King. Yes, his actual radio minor, very minor,

like scraping the bottom of the top 40 radio hits are, what are they? Love King, probably show him as the shit. Yeah, yeah. And it's, yes, joy. is a major factor in what makes him so great. Of those, I think Yamaha, Yamaha is the best of those. It's flawless. Let's just point out that there was utility to bringing producer Dylan in here because producer Dylan, as she pointed out, was 19 years old during this time, as horrifying as that fact is.

For myself, and probably even more horrifying, yeah, for Rob, who's older than me if I haven't pointed that up. Yeah, I think you have. significantly older than me. Not significantly. Okay. And while they were both paying close attention to the dream, you know, Dylan was like a cool young girl that was hip and with it. Rob was a critic and I was really drunk. And so I don't remember any music that came out during this time.

I was simply talking to the weekend and playing Ride It My Pony by Genuine weekly at the Chachau. Weekly. So weekly. I don't have a dog in this race is what I'm saying. So it's nice to hear the two, the two genders, if you will, of the dream fandom. Yeah. Well, do you want to keep making the people wait?

I will not make a sex joke for Yamaha or can you just give it to them? Yamaha is on, I believe, his third record, Love King. It should be illegal to compare people to Prince, I think, as someone who does it all the time. but as whimsical megalomaniacal one-man band Sex Jam Virtuosos go, the dream is working in that lineage. This is Little Red Corvette. This is a loving homage to Little Red Corvette right down to, you know, shall I compare thee to a motor vehicle?

And I, yes, if there are, yes, producer Dylan has answered your question that I flubbed. If there is one dream song that might have conceivably been a number one song, sung by the dream. It is Yamaha, Offa Love King. Let's hear it. Let's hear it. I love to be compared to a motor vehicle.

I think it is legal to compare people to Prince when the songs sounds like they were heavily inspired by a specific Prince song. Right. That's like they just, he broke into Paisley Park

and just use all of Prince's equipment and rewrote a Prince song. slightly. I can really hear what producer Dylan was saying about the time of the drive soundtrack and how that may have had some influence or vice versa on this type of music coming from the dream. Yes, yes, absolutely. Dance music that you can theoretically intellectualize, you know, that seems to be smarter, seems to be wittier, seems to be funnier, seems to be more thoughtful. in some way, I think there's definitely a throughline there in terms of, you know, teaching the indie kids to dance again.

I blacked out this period of time, both literally and figuratively, for specific reasons, because I feel that culture was like literally abominable during this time. It was like the ugliest versions of everything. I mean, people started wearing Japanese souvenir jackets because of the, film. Do you know what I'm saying? It was... Yeah, is it a cobra or a scorpion? I forget. Somebody was talking about something on the internet where their boyfriend based their entire lifestyle and personality after the dude in drive and just didn't say anything and she only

realized in retrospect that that's what he had done. But yes, there was a lot of that happening and through a certain prism, abominable is not the wrong word. It was just a gross time. I think for fashion, for culture. It was hipster. It was peak hipster. And as somebody who did have a Janet from Three's Company haircut in 2000, I don't know, two, three, four, I want to say. I'm into it.

Okay. The first song was angry and I didn't like it. This song was really fun. I don't know. how to his voice isn't engaging me and that's what I was gonna

kind of point out when we were talking about maybe why he didn't make it crossover wise like looks might have had to do with it but like you know I think Usher is attractive and Neo is attractive but like they're not like

Tyrese right right but their voices are honier they're warmer they're what I think of when I think of R&B and maybe the dream's voice isn't. Is that unfair? Am I just no, that is absolutely fair.

I mean, it goes all the way back to like Jay Holiday. If Jay Holiday could write songs like bed, then this would be Jay Holiday's career. And maybe there would be a higher ceiling for that version of the person who wrote and sung these songs. But the dream has a very limited vocal range in a very limited emotional range. It's very flat, it's very consistent,

and if you buy into sort of the extended universe of it, then you buy into it. But here's what I want to do. I want to play you a Mariah Carey song. Let's cleanse the mouth. Because something that people, at least critics, said a lot about the dream in this era is that there was a New York Times thing that said

he helped define the sound of female R&B. specifically that he had a specific acumen as a songwriter to speak to and about and through women and that applies to Rihanna and Beyonce it's like the thing like people on Twitter start dunking on Jonathan Franzen because he can't write female characters or whatever it's just the person who had a hand at least in writing the line

if you like it then you should have put a ring on it has somehow sort of zeroed in on how to really push the sound and the idea and the concept of female R&B forward. And the 2009 Mariah Carey album Memoirs of an Imperfect Angel, The Dream and Christopher Tricky Stewart wrote, co-wrote and produced the whole of it. It's not Mariah's best album, but she sounds loose. She sounds like she's having fun. She sounds liberated in a way she doesn't necessarily sound on other albums

where she's specifically talking about being liberated. And the song is called Up Out My Face. There's a moment late in this song where she talks about two Lego blocks being separated by the Harvard University graduating class of 2010. And somebody laughs in the background. And I'm almost sure that that's the dream. And you can hear the dream so clearly just the voice,

the inner voice, the songwriting voice in that moment. And it's very refreshing to have it sung by someone who can sing as well as Mariah King. Let's do it. Okay, I just have to say that part that you referenced before gave me very, uh, the men at the music business conference. If we were two, leg on blocks, sleeping the hall of an university graduating class of 2010, couldn't put his back to kill again. Right, right. Yes.

Absolutely. Lana Delray. So maybe Lana heard that. Also, I was thinking about what you said about the dream writing for women. That's it. What was occurring to me is that his brand of like burning resentment is more palatable when delivered by a woman, maybe, just more delightful when delivered by a woman. Like the same voice that says, like, if you like, then you should put a fucking ring on it, bitch. And this song that's like, get the fuck out of my face is very fun when you hear a woman say.

But then when you hear the dream say it, it's alarming. No, it is 8,000, if not 80,000 percent more fun to hear Mariah or anyone sing it. And yeah, and it's just if you were put off by the resentment, if you were put off by Nikki, then it's going to get darker from here. But yes, that it is absolutely true that he can be fun and he can be silly, but he can also be just hugely full of himself and hugely. insolent and resentful, and that's going to continue to color his music. Drake is somebody who I think he influenced a lot. Like, The Dream has the best song in the first official Drake record. Thank me later, in my opinion. And Drake is someone who went on to write many, many, many, many insolent, resentful songs, you know, about the women who wronged him, you know, and plenty of people are turned on by that,

and plenty of people are turned off by that. But there's just some tangible quality that Drake had that made that marginally more palatable coming from Drake than it did from the dream. Who is allowed to be angry is the question. Kanye is allowed to be angry. Lana Del Rey on Instagram is allowed. This is the point roundabouts 2011 where the dream, where the fact that the dream has put out three albums and doofy critics like me liked them, but they did not sell, this is going to start being a problem.

Like his next album is one of these deals where it's delay. made 500 times. It is retitled and given a new track list 500 times and becomes this arduous sort of industry fiasco. And it does eventually come out, but his personal life is also sort of darkening. And so the next big thing that he does is in 2011, he releases, I don't know how it was termed. It's a free download. I don't think he wanted it called a mixtape, but it was a free album called 1977 that he released as Terius Nash, which I'm sure was

some sort of stick to the industry people who wouldn't let him release the next dream album. And it's dark. It's beautiful and it's melodic and it's recognizably him and has the recognizable appeal of him. But it's like there's a song called Wedding Crashers,

right? And you're like, oh man, this is going to be great. I love this movie. And it's like, I'm sorry I crashed your wedding. Let me sing you my drunk song. I'm alone. with my bottle of Patron. And it's like, oh, no, like even the Patron, you know, has turned against him. There is one song on this record that I do need, I think, that you should play. It is unpleasant in a very enjoyable way, if that makes any sense.

It is called Real. I have a feeling this is not the actual title of the song, but as far as streaming services are concerned, it's called Real. It features Farrell. It is brash. It is boisterous. They are listing their possessions, and it includes the line, and I am paraphrasing slightly, but the dream sings, ever seen somebody buy a house from the toilet.

And this image, this image is a lot to take in. You know, take your time. If you want to take a walk, whatever you got to do, it's like, it's awesome that he can do that. It's very sad that he did that, and it is hilarious that he is bragging. about doing that. Like laughing with you, not at you, hilarious.

Like this is, it's, it's just a line that stops you in your tracks every single time. And it's like, I am worried about this person,

but this person can still delight me. What does that say about me? What does that say about him? The Yossi-Solic story. Okay, let's hear the song. Okay, well, that's a departure.

How'd that go for you? That's not how you buy a boat. I'm almost positive. I have never bought a boat, but you can't put a boat in a cart. That's ridiculous. I think maybe you can't. I mean, you can put a lot of things in the cart. You can buy a car on eBay.

That's true. Have you done that? You know what I'm saying? Why not a boat? All right, you convince me. How'd that go for you? How are you feeling? That was fun.

Okay, that was fun. Yeah, totally, totally fun for everyone involved. Yes. Here's the thing. angry works here this like defiant anger sort of petulance like works in this context yes it's another great subject of dream songs going forward is all all his imitators you know and all all his detractors all his haters etc etc yes that is as a sex neutral area of grievance for him it is a relief you know at least that he is emerging from the bedroom you know to yell at people

from his porch this time, I suppose, or his boat or his toilet. I, yes. No, I understand, I understand completely what you're saying. Unfortunately, most of the resentful songs to come are romantic, our sexual still, but yes, this is a departure in that sense and a blessed one, I suppose.

It bears saying that, I think it was in 2015. he was brought up on domestic abuse charges. He was accused of assaulting his pregnant then-girlfriend. He went to court and those charges were dismissed in 2015. In the realm, most of like the reporting on this is in the realm of sort of TMZ and gossip blogs. It gets sort of nebulous. But like that he went to court, that he was charged with these things and that those charges were dismissed is a matter of public record. and it didn't seem really to affect his standing,

you know, that he's on, you know, a Megan the Stalian and Beyonce song, you know, six years later that he's putting out, you know, four-volume sex tapes, you know, a couple years later, I, it's, it's hard to say if this is something that just didn't get the play that it should have, or people just dismissed it. You never quite know what people are thinking,

but that did happen and just, it does not harm it, well with just the resentment, the bleakness, the anger, the constant lashing out, and all of his exes in, you know, 40% of his songs, you know, and more like 60% of his songs in the last five years or so. This is both an easy person to root for and a hard person to root for. Got it. I think you have to have completely bought in at this point to still be on this journey with him. I think his last official record at this point was SXT. P4, which is Sex Tape 4.

Of course, that was 2020. Don't you think most artists, like, if you're not totally obsessed with them, by the time they hit their fourth or fifth album, like, you're either in it or you're not? Yes, but I think that this is somehow an extreme case, because he just keeps burrowing further

inward, you know? And again, he started out as a person who could be both buoyant and sort of off-puttingly resentful, and it's just he's leaning far more to the resentful side now. He said once, like in a New York Times interview, it's like, the only person touching me is Kanye. And he meant as an artist. But what like what he really means is

like as an ego. Right. And I, you know, if we want to put a positive, a loving spin on in that, then it goes all the way back, you know, to his mother. And his mother's saying, these are the greats. These are the songs that endure. And these are the songs that still endure today. And like, that's what he wanted to do and that's what he wanted to be and he's more doing it than being it and you know whether he's come to grips with that or not you know he's buying houses off the toilet i guess he doesn't care at this point you know how okay you know how you know there's people that you know that are like i'm so weird and you're like no damn you're not do you know what i mean like you you went to urban outfiters and you have a cool exi store that you have like bookmarked

But then there's people that are so deeply actually weird that they're not even aware of it. And you know that that's the authentic. There's authentically weird people. And the hallmark usually of that is that they don't know or care about it's just not something that even occurs to them. Like they think that's normal. Right. And it seems for how you're describing him and also from the music that we've been listening to that the dream cannot help but be weird. It's not an affectation.

It's not a hipster thing. Like we could make the argument like the weekend, whether or not it's authentic. He's very self-aware of what image he's portraying and what his songs are about. The dream is singing about sweating out someone's hairdo and, you know, I'll take you to the beautician after. Like, that's really genuine, but it's weird. You know, and I don't, I think the self-aware kind of hipster tied in weirdness just hits better. culturally because people are also not weird. So they're able to, you know, connect with that. And I think weird, you know, I think you could make the argument that Kanye West is also one of the people who are

authentically, deeply weird. But it works better in rap music. For whatever reason, couching in our, in our day and age, couching that genuine weirdness in rap music, that flies. You know, we have odd future. We have, it works now and people like it. But R&B is still kind of, it's a very, it's an old school music, you know, that like, like you're saying, like, its roots are always going to be, it's traditional. It's in like Sam Cook and, you know, later Michael Jackson and Prince. And while, like, they were all weird in their own ways and in a lot of ways that we haven't talked about yet, and maybe don't need to get into, it doesn't leave a lot of room for that sort of nuanced weirdness. So it makes sense to me that he didn't make it in that way. Right.

I would be curious beneath all the bravado if he really did feel at the bottom of his heart that like Yamaha should have been a number one song. Like if he feels like with the right industry push, you know, if the world had not wronged him, then the dream, the hyphen dream would be the biggest pop star in America. Like does he actually believe that he should be that? understand, like, as you say, that he's just, he can only be himself. And you're right, that, like, people would rather listen to DeAngelo. Yeah. I do think that you're right, that it's, from the beginning, it's, the dream was sort of a mixture of pure R&B sonically, but with, with a rap attitude. And it is this swagger and almost this ugliness and this fullness of yourself and just this discomfort, you know, and I do think that there's a hard ceiling on how far you can go as a pop.

star with the constant grievances that the dream has. And I do have to think at some level he has to be aware of that. It's also what you're saying, the inverse exists in Drake, and it worked in Drake, right? The inverse of a rapper who has an R&B sensibility, and that went, you know, but an R&B artist with a rap sensibility, that didn't go. Producer Dylan is screaming that she must have us know that at his shows, he'd, does go off on monologues about how he's been wrong. I'm sure. I'm sure that's true. He does feel he has.

What do you love most about the dream? And what song is that for you? He makes silliness feel profound. I think that might be it. And I think that is a genre-free idea that I continually return to. I believe that they might be giants were another band that I pitched to you. I would not have said sex jams one time had you

picked they might be giants there is no sonic or emotional or otherwise connection between they might be giants and the dream other than me first of all and most importantly me

but second of all they can only be themselves they know it's not that you're as you say I think you said it very well that they don't know they're weird that you can't be weird on purpose.

It's weird if you're trying to be weird on purpose. They can only be themselves. They can only do what they want to do and they can only have the people come to them if the people are going to come to them. And they do. And they make silliness feel profound. It goes all the way back to Ella, Ella, Ella.

The first time you hear Umbrella, you're just like, what is happening? And by the end of the song, it's clear to you that this is a, smash hits that you're going to be talking about for the rest of your life. And you don't know why. And you can't understand how something that started that ridiculous ended up, you know, that's stratospheric.

And I think that is a singular talent that can't be taught and can't be manifested. It's just, it has to be a very weird guy just doing the very weird thing that he does and trying to make it as mainstream as, palatable as pop star as possible and like failing in a way that is itself like beautiful and triumphant okay rob what's a song then that you think best you know embodies what you've just this the silliness that we hear but i don't think is intended right it's not an intentional silliness let's go with makeup bag which is a song off his third record off of love king the one with Yamaha on its, you know, he released his song as a single. I believe Ti is on this song.

Like he, this is intended to be a pop hit. And it was a minor hit. I don't, you know, not in any chart sense, but like he tried. And it sounds like he tried. And it fits with the music that charted far higher than it. But like the concept of this song is that like if you screw up and piss off your girlfriend, buy her a $5,000 bag. And the dream implies, he doesn't imply. he says explicitly that he does this all the time. He uses patroning as a verb in this song. It's two in the morning. I've been all out patroning.

You know, it's, I feel like the signature dream song has to include, uh, Petron. And it's. He's contractually oblocated with his deal with Petron. Venmo's him $15 every time. He sings it. This is another candidate for his signature dream song, another candidate. another candidate for a song that could have, you know, in a perfect world, you know, been a number one hits, but you understand why it wasn't, but you love it for what it is. And I can't be is a great

way to describe it. Silly is a great way to describe it. But I love it for that, not in spite of that. So makeup bag is my answer. Let's hear makeup bag. Um, a man who is known, first and foremost for being hot and secondly for being an artist is on that song. That's true. T.I. This is a weirdly specific song. It's weirdly specific to say that I will spend $5,000 on a makeup bag for you. Not a purse. You could have just said a purse, but a makeup bag. Also, I noticed in one of the other songs, he, oh.

it's about making up. You're realizing the double entangra. Yeah, yes. I didn't realize it. Producer Dylan told me. I didn't catch it. Smooth brain. That's all right.

That's all right. I'm a little too fashion where I was like, ooh, you could get a really nice makeup bag for $5,000, especially for Hermes. Like a gorgeous leather makeup bag from Hermes probably is $5,000.

It is not about cosmetics. It can be. You can put whatever you want in the bag. Any bag can be a makeup bag. Well, honestly, in that sense, then, listen. dream. 5Ks, I mean, from what you're talking about, out all night patroning and

it sounds like you were cheating, you put a pony up 10K and get that burkin. 10 stacks is what you're so we're negotiating now. This is interesting. If you could buy a boat at a house from the toilet, maybe you could get your woman. It's a valid point.

A burkin bag. A makeup boat. How about that? Yeah. A makeup burkin is what I'm saying. That was a fun song. I enjoyed that. Yes. Yes. What is it mean when hipster media makes you famous, but the industry doesn't. Like, the industry doesn't

support it, but, but it's pushed through by the failing. Right. I mean, what complicates the dream is that he was a huge industry success, just not as himself. But he must, but he must not have had the support. Right. Like, you have to think that like, people pulling the strings could have gotten him on the radio. They easily could have, right? Like, that's, we hear what gets on the radio, you know, but they chose not to. Yes. They were like, keep making us hits, babe, but we're not going to let you be famous. No, I think that's a good read of it. I mean, it's cocky is indisputable, you know, awful is on the table. I don't think the dream ever had visible, audible discomfort with who liked him and why and in what guys. I don't think, you know, it's. I don't think, you know,

if he was bothered by the idea of being a more hipster, a more critical phenomenon, you know, I don't think that made his list of grievances, which are many, of course. You know, it's just what he, he would just default to what has always sounded to me, like just the pure Kanye West, like I am a genius and I am not fully respected as a genius.

You know, again, for driving the sound of R&B in general, and female R&B in particular. Like he's not getting the credit for what he did for the culture as a whole. And whether you hail him as a songwriter or hail him as a solo artist, that's not as important as just hailing him,

praising him, deifying him all the time. And there's been plenty of deification, but just it's never going to be enough. It's never going to be commensurate. You're never going to love him as much as he loves him. Okay, Rob. Well, we spoke to

some fans who actually love the dream as much as the dream loves the dream. Do you want to hear from them? I'm very excited. Please. Let's roll that beautiful beaten footage. Dream. Radio Killer, ATL. I'm a

very, very serious fan of the dream. One of the greatest underrated singer-songwriter producers of our time, who's been keeping the R&B torch burning. He's a modern-day prince, As far as an artist, he should be considered magic.

So I've been a fan of the dream since I heard Shardy as a shit in 2007. I was living in a basement with two other guys in college, and that sound came out and became kind of an anthem for everything we did. So when I think of the dream, I think of the virtue of pettiness, the artistic power of pettiness. But I think that pettiness, when you break it down, the actual appeal is that the man is funny. He's conversational. He's fucking real.

He's not bullshitting you most of the time. But this, of course, is in addition to being precise and meta and just being a complete fucking pro when it comes to songwriting. I wasn't as open-minded to pop music when I was in my mid-teens. and by the time that, you know, like, Umbrella came out, I think that the amount of substance in his production and his writing gave me a new open mind to things that are going on in the pop world that can evoke serious feeling. The dream is one of the most important artists of a generation.

Now, I don't really know where kids are discovering the dream at this point. Wherever you discover the dream from is going to do. change your life. So on one hand, he's kind of like this, this like ratchet sex hero who's like, you know, swaggering around the club with his fucking fedora on with like a Patron bottle on his hands. But then there's this other side to him that comes through on albums like 1977 or like Love versus Money where, you know, he's kind of hurt and he's lost and he's spiteful and he's still drunk on Patron and he's missing his mom. But, you know, it's fucking complicated. It's real. He gave R&B and hip hop a shot in the arm.

He was on everything. He brought a southern edge to R&B music. He brought that street credibility. He brought that edge. You know, he brought some funk to it. I mean, the dude just does it all. Like, every song he is on, is a banger. He just kind of, like, makes everything better, you know?

He's like the hot sauce of music. Like, just add him. to every track, and the track will always be better. The cool thing about Terius is that, like, he could have easily just sat back, wrote his hits for the Rianas and Beyonce's The World, and just counted his money. But he's like, no, I'm going to give you an album album.

I'm going to give you a bunch of album albums, fully integrated top to bottom with the narrative, with, like, DJ blends, and with a bunch of fucking curveballs that are constantly deconstructing your idea of what, like, the dream sound is, something like fancy being a great example. At the height of the Obama years, there was a lot of excitement and a lot of positivity and hopefulness, just period, in the political environment and all others.

And with a lot of the Dreams music, I kind of found like a very kind of celebratory, obviously, sexual vibe. I really appreciate what he did for me as a DJ because he slowed to. things down in the club. And, you know, for that period between like 2008, 2011, you know, people didn't really want to slow things down. People didn't want to slow dance in the club. They didn't want to grind in the club the way they used to back in the day. And I'm talking about like, you know, the 70s and 80s, your parents' generation. So listening to the dream really brought a connection back to the club where you really wanted to spend that time with that person that you were with on the dance floor. One of my best friends, their wedding song, was for

which is like a deep cut of his that a lot of people really don't know. That was great to experience. I've been so lucky to see him in these small venues where the crowd is just like we're all there for him. We are singing along dancing in a sweaty small room, just the biggest smiles on our face. I started putting together mixtapes and celebrating just his music. And then one day I get some random DM from a guy named Shiv who, claimed to be Dreams manager who said, oh, DREAM's going on tour, and he loves what you're doing with his work and your mixes. And he says, clearly, you know his music better than he does and all

these sort of like one-liners. And I thought, yeah, right, there's no way. This is a cold call like this from an artist that I respect so much. No way. Well, it turns out it was true. Dream and I ended up going on tour two weeks later. And we continued to tour for years. He's trying to feel love and make art, fuck the other shit. What's really the difference between writing a catchy melody and having great sex? You know, like, I remember listening to Love, Hate when I was writing about it a few years back, and this Eve Babbitt's quote came to mind. This is from Slow Days Fast Company, and she's bringing this dude to this restaurant with, like, kind of set a fucking vibe. And she says, here's a quote, I thought that going there with Sean with the rain outside

would be an opportunity for high art if you believe, as I do, that sex. are. I think that Terry's Nash would agree with that. Do you think I could become David Matthews' DJ in a similar way? Well, you've got to start on those mega mixes, but yes, the answer is yes. You just got to reach out to Dave's manager, Shiv. Dave, Matthews' manager is also named Shiv. And you just, you got to do your best. You got to put two-step into ants marching, just seamlessly. Pants Marsing, mash up. There you go.

How did you feel about those fans' thoughts? Rob, did they kind of mirror your own? Did you learn about new aspects of fandom that you yourself do not possess? I believe so. Megan Garvey is one of my favorite writers. And so I was thrilled. Shout out Megan Garvey. From her.

I had aired and not mentioning the fedora previously. The fedora very important. Eve Babbitt's also very important. Yeah, I can't believe you didn't even. bring in Eve Baptist. Yeah, I screwed that up. I screwed up. But the virtue of pettiness, I really like that phrase, the celebration of imperfection,

the confidence of being human. Yes, this mirrored my own thoughts, but clarified them. I had never thought about like the Obama hopefulness. They sort of, the timeline sort of match up that the dream emerged during this period. No, Shepard Ferry. Yes, Shepard Ferry. Right. You know, it's sort of a smokescreen that that was a pure and simple and joyful time now, obviously. But there was a certain hopefulness in the air. Let's not talk about rock-gism or pop-timism, but like the idea of the dream showing you that like pop music could be good or pop music could be pure or could be stylish in a way that you'd never considered pop music before. I think that was a common feeling at the time, right? there in the late 2000s when he emerged.

That just he was showing like actually pop can be good. Actually R&B can be pop. You know, so those, that resonates with me, but they all said it better than I've been saying it. So you just, you can kick me out of here and replace me with Megan Garby. You don't get to leave until we talk about if you feel that sex is art.

Rob just, Rob just spit out his tea. You waited until I took a sip of tea before. I did. You said that. I don't appreciate that. I think I've discussed sex enough at this point. I'm retiring from that topic. We're going to make a super cut of every time you said sex jam.

And release it as the promo for this episode. And put it to the snare drum of ants marching, you know, just eight minutes. That's my mix that's going to get me hired. Sex jam. Sex jam. Sex jam. Sex jam. It's called sex jams to you. Sex jams. I know. Send it to Shiv. Shiv.

Shiv, hook it up, bro. You're a genius. Well, I feel moved. I guess, like, it's sadly for me, not for you, probably, blessedly and happily for you. It's time to wrap up the episode. I've learned a lot today. And that's a rare, esplaining moment for me. And I, um, now that I feel.

like a wild animal ready to hit the streets this summer. I think I'll have a better appreciation for the dreams oeuvre. As before when I spent every evening on the couch watching my medical dramas, there wasn't a lot of need for the dream. But now, mentally old girl summer, I think, will involve a lot of soundtracking by the dream. And also I learned about a numeric carry song that I deeply love. So I think net. Oh, I'm thrilled. I'm thrilled to hear that. That's good. Net net, this was a success. I'm very relieved to hear that. But yes, the dream is the soundtrack to Hot Vax summer. That makes a lot of sense.

Well, Rob, you're going to, you're not quite done yet. What song would you like to leave all of our listeners who've made it this far? Who knows how many people are still here, six to seven. Five. My wife. Shiv is definitely severe. And Shiv and my wife. And Zach for sure. Shout out Zach. What song do you want to leave everyone with to wrap this gorgeous episode up?

I think the smart play here is Fall in Love Again, Phila, which is another thing about the dream is like the first 10 to 30 seconds of a dream song are just this joyous burst of energy. It just immediately just hit you, just the ad libs, the exuberance. In the first 10 seconds of this song, it just has some quality that just you fall in love with it immediately. Like you're on board, you buy in immediately. And this happens constantly in his catalog for me. But I do think just as a pure, joyous affair, I think Fila might be the purest song in his catalog.

And so we should have played it at the beginning. Maybe, but we might as well just play it at the end for Shiv. Okay, last sex jam, y'all. Thanks so much, Rob, for joining us on Bandsblane today. Yeah, no problem. Go listen to 60 songs that made the 90s, which is a much better show than this one. And we'll see you next week on Bansplaine. Thank you so much.

If you liked what you heard today, subscribe for more episodes of Bansplaine only on Spotify. Our sex jam loving guest today was Rob Harvilla. You can read his brilliant writing on The Ringer and listen to his excellent show, 60 songs that explain the 90s, right here on Spotify. Follow him on Twitter at Harvilla. Huge thanks to the dream mega fans you heard on this episode. Megan Garvey, Four Color Zach, Sarah Stewart, Sky,

Jason Scott, Richard Treats Dryden, and Braden King. Bansplain is a Spotify original show. This episode was produced by the Wind My Wings, Producer Dylan, aka Dylan Tupper Rupert, and edited by Michael Hardman, with help from Casey Simonson and Tari Miller.