Bandsplain - The Get Up Kids with Arielle Gordon

Episode Date: March 12, 2026

Yasi is joined by music writer Arielle Gordon to tell the story of the Get Up Kids, the Kansas City emo band that transformed the genre. They get into the mix of punk energy and big feelings that made the band so influential, the sliding-door moments of what almost was, and the bands that emerged (and dominated) in the third wave of emo that the Get Up Kids helped create.Listen to the Get Up Kids playlist here.Host: Yasi Salek @yasisalekGuest: Arielle Gordon @reallygordonProducer: Rob SundermannEditor: Adrian BridgesAdditional Production Supervision: Justin SaylesTheme Song: Bethany Cosentino Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's with this band anyway? I don't get it. Can you please explain? Wait, like, Bansplaine? Hello and welcome to Bansplaine. I am your host, Yossi Salick. This is a show where we invite an expert guest on to help me explain a cult band or iconic artist. Today's episode is about the Get Up Kids. My guest today, you guys, is esteemed music journalist, and I'll say it, emo expert.

Ariel Gordon, welcome to the program, Ariel. Hello, thanks. Yesy. Big shoes to fill for you. Yeah. Big emo shoes. Clown shoes. But, yeah.

You said it. Big checkered vans for you to fill. That's the way of emo that I'm not familiar with, which is why we brought you here to educate and edify. Happy to do so. How are you? I'm doing great. I love the get-up kids. That's the thing about me that you should all know.

Yes. I was listening to your Jimmy Eat World episode, and you were talking about. I believe, I don't want to put words in the north, a college lover introducing you. You know what? Let's just get it out of the way. Let's get it right out of the way. A college lover, that makes me sound so like French. No, absolutely, here's how I found the get-up kids.

And then I want to ask you how you found the get-up kids, Kansas City, Missouri's finest. There I was, bright out and busheled, my first year at UC Santa Barbara, ready to, you know, embrace all that life has to offer. and I'm in my dorm, Tropicana Gardens. May it rest in peace, I don't think it exists anymore. And I'm wearing my diesel mini skirt and my diesel slip-on shoes

that had a little fur in them. You guys weren't there. I had probably a Puma wristband on. Cool. Again, this was another time. My hair is flat-ironed, and I'm just like, let's joie de vivre.

And I meet a guy in the dorm pretty early on named Josh. and I said this on the Jimmy World Pod, and I'll say it again. I would absolutely love to dox him, but it cannot for the life of me remember his last name. To be fair, his name might not even be Josh. Well, Josh is a pretty rare name. It's so rare. I tried to Google, Josh's Tropicanagarden Gardens.

And Josh get up kids abuser. He's not an abuser. Anyways, so Josh, East Coast, like, you know, kind of preppy. We have a little vibe. He invites me into his dorm room. Also in Tropic Kindergarten. That's right. Simply downstairs and, you know, down the hall.

And he puts on get-up kids. That's right. Bown-chicaw-W-W-A, if you will. And I was like, okay, the mood has absolutely sad. Also, I was like, this is amazing. Because I had sort of checked out maybe. This is like I had started transitioning at that point. I was like still really into punk and stuff, but I love Jimmy World.

I just wasn't really aware of get-up kids. and I was blown away. And then we had a moment, you know, as you do, young 18-year-olds. And then at the end, he was like, don't tell anyone, okay? About the get-up kids? No, I think he would have been fine for me to tell people about the get-up kids about what had transpired between us. Oh, my God.

And I was like, well, yeah, I wasn't going to tell. Why would I tell anyone? And then I have had 13 years of therapy. Since then, just kidding. But I'm not just kidding. Anyways, Josh can rot in hell. But thankfully, he brought me the get-up kids. And I was texting Namdrop with Rich Egan of vagrant Records fame to get some.

I was doing journalism, if you guys will, like boots on the ground. And he said he had also heard that story. And he said, fuck Josh. And he probably didn't even really actually like the get-up kids. He's probably just using it to ensnare a vulnerable young woman. And look at you. No. And look at us, like, talking, you know. Well, you think Josh is still talking about the get-up kids? Probably. Josh is probably working and, like, finance, like, destroying, like, emerging nations or something.

Yeah, true, true. How did you come to the get-up kids, Ariel? So, we were talking that I'm 30, in my 30s, 30. Oh, you're exactly 30. So you've just entered your 30s. And so I actually came into life the same year the get-up kids did, and it's been beautiful to watch our stars rise together. And so, yeah, I was 95, so I can't say that I was listening, unfortunately. Right. I was actually listening a lot to Seal, but anyway. Like Kiss from a Rose? That's the song I was born too, allegedly in the hospital.

That's pretty cool. Lifted me out of my mom. Yeah. But so I found them, frankly, if I could be so honest with you, from Fall Out Boy. I believe that Fall Out Boy, either in their Wikipedia page, if that existed at the time, or in an interview, was like, they're like, who are your influences? And it was like, and there's just a list, you know, amazing bands. And you were like, and I was like, on my way. Yeah.

You know. That's actually so great because I know that some people will probably be like, oh, we want to hear, you know, from people that were really like there. And it's like, that's fine. And I can get into that. But like, I'm actually very interested in what the get-up kids rot because they are one of those unique bands that, I don't want to say the Velvet Underground of Emo in some ways. But not no, like a very specific strain of emo comes directly from the womb of the get-up kids. And to be frank, exceeded them vastly in terms of commercial success. They say everyone who listened to something to write home about put 12 pixels on their next record.

And I said more. You said actually more. Yeah. But no, I think I was going to ask you. I was actually going through like R-slash-E-mo as one's want to do just to be like, what are they talking about in there? Yeah. And there's- What are they in 20-6? Yeah.

What's up at R-slash-Emo? And it's more lively than ever. But I think like the post I saw like was making me tear up this morning as I was drinking my coffee. It was just somebody being like, hey, for anybody who was like a teenager in the 90s, like, what was it like? Did you know you were like in the middle of the most special time in music? It's like how I feel about like L.A. in the 70s or like 90s Seattle. They're like, what was the war? tour like in 1994.

I'll tell you, babe, I was there. We can talk about it. So, yeah, I always find it interesting that I was... Paris in the 20s. Yeah, and so that's my introduction. And then I, like, went back and listened after I, you know, like I wasn't listening at the moment. But then I put away emo for a bit,

but then around 2017, when all that we were, when we were young stuff, was boiling back to the service. I was kind of like, let me check these guys out again, see if this particular band holds up. And I would say, even better than I remembered. Fucking slaps. Fallout Boy, you would have been, man, like prime age. Yeah, I would say I missed take this to your grave.

That's the one. You just said you don't really know much about. Sugar, I'm going down spinning. That's my place with Ball Out Boy, and I will learn more when it is time. And lovely men, I've interviewed them actually in the past. I just like, it's all kind of past my time. and I just have never really like dived deep in there. But sugar, I'm going on spinning, is a god tear banger.

And so that, to me, I feel like I knew as the Antler song, or like that was colloquially. Donald from the Virgins, you guys, for the heads that know, is Antler Boy in the video directed by the great Matt Lensky. If you're listening, Matt, you did a wonderful job on that. It's a real, it's a real a felini moment. in the emo canon. I still think about it to thank you every day. So I was like really into them by that sugar we're going down album, which is

I couldn't tell you. I was in college, I think. No, I've been in high school. It was 2005 from under the quirk tree. I wasn't even in college anymore. Yeah, so you were the exact audience from under the quirk tree. But yeah, I feel like then from there

I was on a lot of like live journal forums and people would just talk about the get-up kids all the time. And I feel like I was getting, well, we'll get into some. the drama, but some of the interpersonal band dramas of that era. Oh, yeah, because that's exactly when the band fell apart. It was like 2005-ish. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, great. I kind of like this, though. We're going to meet in different places. All right, let's take it from the top with one Matthew Pryor, born March 16th, 1978. He has a Pice's, which is, I think, zero surprise. That's a Pyssey's man. I was looking enough.

I think there's multiple Pyses in the band. I know that there's an Ares and a cancer. The popes. That's crazy. And Jim Subt takes a Libra. It's really hard to do research, by the way, on the Pope brothers, because it just comes up with Pope stuff. They keep saying, oh, like, you mean the Holy Father? The Holy Father.

And I'm like, that's different, less influential Pope to me. You think the Holy Father is less influential than the two Pope brothers? Yeah. Okay. I think that's a fair take to all the Catholic listeners, to the Catholic monk who listens to this podcast. Sorry. He might disagree with you. you, and that's okay. There's a wealth of different opinions in the world. So Matt Pryor,

he's born in Kansas City, Missouri. His father is a lawyer, and his parents get divorced when he's fairly young. Goes to Catholic school, speaking of the Pope, and gets really into hair metal as a man who is born in 1978 is wanted to do. Because, you know, you're 10, 8, 10 years old and, like, Molly Crew and Guns and Roses is fucking popping the fuck off. He said, I am a young metalhead, a white trash poser because I actually come from money. The one outlier in my record collection is pump up the volume. He's talking in present tense as a child. Catholic school dress codes won't allow boys to have hair past their collars. So I have sort of a mini-mullet, business in the front, Christian mingle in the back. This is from Red Letter Day's Day or Days,

his memoir, which is actually quite good. At 12, he's diagnosed with type 1 diabetes. I didn't know that. Yeah, there's a real big chunk of it in the book. It's actually, I think, pertinent to the story, but I'll mention it for now. Within a year of that, his mother remarries, he says, my new stepfather is significantly older than my mother, but this doesn't bother me. That he and I are wholly incompatible will become bothersome, but it isn't an issue we need to address yet. So we have a couple wounds starting. We have divorce. We have stepfather we don't get along with.

And we have early diagnosis of type 1 diabetes, which is pretty gnarly when you're 12. years old and have to like all of a sudden monitor your insulin intake and stuff. Yeah, he didn't have any sugar going down at all. No sugar was going down spinning. Or maybe too much sugar going down spinning. It depends. I think either one can cause a crash. Yeah, but that's destabilizing no matter what. Right. Yeah. I'm not a doctor. So he starts playing guitar at 13, but he also, I think he played drums first. He started going to a support group for teenagers with diabetes. And this is where he meets the girl who will eventually become his wife and also the subject.

of a great deal of the get-up kids songs that we love at the diabetes support group. That's fascinating because I was glancing his Wikipedia, and it says, if I can read it from it now, that he met his wife at high school, at the high school. So I wonder. I think they got it wrong, because according to his own words in his memoir, I'm going to update the Wikipedia. They were at this support group, which is kind of difficult for me to discern, but I'm pretty sure it was a teens with diabetes support group.

So I assume she also had diabetes. Or it might have just been a support group for, like, teenagers experiencing difficulties. Either way, I'm glad that they got the support they needed. Yes, and found love. He also meets another girl there who becomes a close friend and teaches him about cool music. He said, above her bed, she's got a subway poster of the Red Hot Chili Peppers, all wearing socks and their penises. Hell, yeah. And another of the nude twin women from that Jane's Addiction album cover before it got censored.

She's the one who first turned me on to punk rock on the local public radio station. So thank you, other woman. She's not named in the book. I think he gives her a nickname, but I can't remember what it is. Their first date, not him and this girl, but him and future wife, is going to a concert with that other girl to see red hot chili peppers with smashing pumpkins and pearl jam opening. What the fuck?

We used to be a proper country. He was wearing a mother-love-bone shirt because he was like, I'm a fucking real one. Oh, you guys aren't even up on Mother Lovebone. You don't even know. This girl also gets him into poetry. important, I think, trajectory. This is the 90s, babe. We're talking coffee shops with giant, like, ugly purple couches.

Like, you don't even understand. Like, you can't walk into Blank Street today with the minimal aesthetic and the scent of Sontal and understand what a vibe we had with these, like, the fonts they would use on these menus. It's, like, the curls, it's just you can't ever know. Global Cafe.

Global Cafe. Yeah. It was really beautiful. It was a really beautiful time. Mismatching chairs. It was wonderful. So we're doing open mic nights. And by way I mean Matt Pryor, I also probably did some open mic nights, but this is not about me. They meet a local adult poet who goes by the name Black and start hanging out with him at his house. This is the 90s and that was normal. He had a signed replacements poster on his fridge. I just liked that detail so I want him to include it. Matt Pryor said, I decided to try writing myself. I start journaling, but I'm fearful.

of it being read by my mother, so I find myself censoring the words that come out of my brain. Eventually, with my friend's encouragement, I developed the courage to read at one of Black's events, but I decided to perform a song instead. I'd been playing drums, but you can't really write songs on that instrument, so I switched to guitar. I have a rudimentary understanding of the guitar, but I figured it out enough to craft songs and learn some simple covers. There's no chance in hell that I could begin to understand the tablature featured in the metal-centric guitar rags, but luckily punk rock requires very little musical virtuosity to play. It's a lot of one of the genre's superpowers, and it's a game changer for me.

Wow. He played Pixie's Whip of Mutilation, if you wanted to know what the cover song was. We'll get into it, but there's another great Pixies cover they do. Incredible Pixies cover. Really? Yeah, it's really good. I really liked this thing that he also said. He said, even though I'm terrible and terrified, I'm still encouraged.

These adults know that the will to perform is the first step towards actually being a performer. The same way the will to write or compose is the first step to becoming a writer or composer. They see that will in me, even though it scares me to death, and they encourage it. It doesn't look beautiful. I'm very touched. Yeah. So then he starts playing in a band with another guy from this maybe diabetes, maybe not support group. It's called Take a Joke.

Take A Joke has a great cassette. Like one. I mean, I've never listened to it, but the name of it. What is it? I think it's bicycles for Afghanistan. Oh, yeah, it's a reference to Kervonica's Cat's Cradle. Yeah, that's so great. People used to read books, you guys.

Take a joke. The singer, he's a hippie. He's named his car after Amy Ray of the Indigo Girls. Hell yeah. Sometime around there, he sees Fugazi for the first time. Really, maybe Fugazi is the Velvet Underground that launched a thousand ships. I mean, whatever. We can take it back to many different bands.

Right. A lot of bands stem from learning about or seeing Fugazi. 311 is a good example. They're both valid undergrath for different, like different types, like entirely different. Yeah, but it is interesting when, I mean, we're not going to chart the entire history of emo. Like, I don't have a whiteboard or anything. But, like, if you wanted to go to the whole way of Rites of Spring coming off of the original... Embrace.

Coming off of the original DC hardcore scene around Discord and then we have... You know, like, it's all feeding into a similar well. I'm pretty sure American football has. had a pretty strong influence from hearing Fugazi as well. Did I do that episode three weeks ago? Should I know? Yeah, but brain damage. Matt said, it's impossible to overstate the impact that Ian and Guy and Brendan and Joe have

had it all my life, the members of Fugazi, even at this young age, especially at this young age. Their ethos and musical adventurousness becomes the foundation of both my songwriting and my humanity. Fuck Catholic school. I learned how to be a good person from repeater. I will copy their lyrical cryptology, writing songs with verses up. obtuse enough that people will never seem to know what they're actually about.

It's like decoding a message in a bottle every time you learn the actual meaning of one of their songs, which is how I felt when I learned that Dave Matthews band's song number 41 was about their lawyer. Wow. It was devastating. Sometimes when you sing the words, you don't really hear what they are. Most people don't really care, but I do. I care a lot. He cared a lot.

He does care a lot. Like, that's one thing you can definitely say about him. One thing you can say about Matt Pryor is he cares quite a bit. Okay, the next band is called Second. theme. Great name. Yeah. It's very like I'm in Catholic school. You know, like, and so.

That's the most rebellious thing you could think of at the time. It's a noise band, and I was like dying, laughing how Matt described it in his book, which is it's music for people who don't enjoy melody or song structure, which is exactly how I feel about noise music. Sure. It's like, good. If you don't want any of those things. But you do enjoy those things. You want that. Yeah, I would prefer if music had melody or song structure.

I get that. Listen, different strokes. different folks, but they were suits and skinny ties, and they have a saxophone player who does not know how to play saxophone. Know how to play. Right, yeah, come on. Sure, it's punk. An all-ages warehouse venue opens up in downtown Kansas City.

Errol, I didn't even ask you. Where are you from? Long Island. Okay, so not Kansas. This venue opens up in downtown one of the Kansas cities. Just a fun tidbit about that all-ages venue, besides the fact that it gives a place to see and play, you know, in bands, is that there's a local performance artist named Scully, and he's like, you guys, my cousin is coming to play, we should all go.

And that cousin's name was Beck Hansen. Wow. What? Yep. So they got to have a little Beck show. It was right around when Beck was blowing up with a loser. So Matt Pryor at this point is living in a house that his stepdad, he's moved into this house that the stepdad owns. It has a wine cellar that they don't use.

which they let him convert into a rehearsal space. This is coming back to the, what did he call himself? Like, poser white trash. Yeah, it comes up a lot, which I thought was interesting, which makes a lot of sense, like, coming up in punk, like, the idea that he was, like, too privileged. He's, like, ashamed of it. Yeah, of being, like, sort of...

Although, I mean, a lot of emo music later comes sort of from suburban. Maybe not privileged, but sure, just, like, suburban landscape. So I remember when Joe Biden, remember Joe Biden, by the way? Okay. Hard to describe where to start. But like he... Is he related to Hunter Biden? Yes.

Okay. Love that guy. They're actually his dad. Yeah. Yeah. But he's like less cool. Yeah. Everybody really less cool than Hunter Biden.

And I don't know if he's ever like even seen an exotic dancer. Yeah. Jinks. But so like Joe Biden. Oh, so when he was running, you know, I remember Pete Wentz posted on on Instagram, like, you know, kind of being like, I owe my life to Joe Biden because Pete Wentz's parents met campaigning for Joe Biden for, I believe, Senate. That's cute.

And so just to speak to the level of, like, connections and wealth of the emoes that came after. Sure, sure. I'd say that it only got more and more kind of connected. It's a diverse group, you know? Sure. But, yeah, I could see why he would be like, it's interesting. I could see why he made me not tell people at the time that his band formed in a wine cellar. Yeah, totally.

in an underused wine cellar in his stepfather's house. He works at the library and an adult video store. I believe this is now sort of after high school. He's playing in bands, something decoder ring. Yes. Secret decodering, yeah. He pretends to be in college and uses the money that his father sends him for classes and living expenses to buy a Ford Econnelline van.

for band stuff. We jammy Kano, as you know, if you're a Minuteman person. He says, I do not inform my father of this action. Instead, I create a fake curriculum of classes culminating in a notarized and completely counterfeit report card. The notarized is such a nice touch. He went the whole way. It's a little of the Lady Dolph protest too much because, like, wouldn't your dad be like, why is your report card notarized? Is that normal? I never had a notarized report card. I never, yeah. I also am wondering what kind of classes he was making up. No, it's so curious. Yeah.

Like, is that not going to call the professor? You know what I mean? No. Clearly. It worked out. Yeah. He meets Jim Septic, a Libra, and Rob and Ryan Pope and Aries in Cancer, respectively, brothers. When their high school band, which was called Kingpin, plays with, like, one of his various bands, he said,

they're from the suburbs and don't seem bothered by that pedigree. They, like, abstract feedback-based. noise rock even more than me. They all wore glasses and are much more fashionable than me and my mechanic chic. He was really into wearing like a boiler suit?

Like workwear, workman wear. It was very like Rocket from the crypt admiration club, you know? And like the greaser hair. Cool. Yeah. That really comes from like the guy from Rocket on the crypt. Fun fact about Jim's object.

The first show he ever went to that he paid for with his own money was a helmet, the Jesus lizard, and therapy. Fuck. I know. It was pretty cool. Jim Subtick, you're a real one. So then in 1995, they got up kids form. That's time. It's time. It's time. They have a guy called Thomas Becker on bass, and actually Ryan Pope is not in the band yet. Becker leaves for college, so then they need to replace the drummer. And now that's this guy called Nathan Shea, who went to art school with Jim Subtick. But this is a bit later. The timeline's a little confusing. So their first practice takes place October 14th, 1995. This is Jim Septic's 18th birthday.

I believe he was still in high. They're still in high school, him and the Pope brothers. Definitely Ryan, because he's young. But I think they're all still in high school. There's a lot of lore about their first show. There's several ones that are their first show. But the actual, actual first show is takes place by accident. It is at a venue called Pat the Head's house.

This is the basement of the house of a man called Pat the Head. Cool. Just in case you're like a music head. It's confusing too because Pat the Head? Yeah, totally. And he might have also had just like a large head. It's not, there's no detail given. It's his basement.

Use your imagination. Yeah, it's his basement. He would have shows there. And that day, Texas is the reason and shift or, meant to play. But somehow, both their bands had technical issues, and they were not able to come. Matt Pryor said, this, I assume, is horse shit. I know I wouldn't be excited to get a tour itinerary with a door deal at Pat the Head's basement. So anyway, those guys don't show up. Their friend Rambo's band is playing already on the bill. It's like the third opener. And their whole band is

already just like in attendance at the show. So they're like, I guess we could play a few songs. So they play a few songs. Jim Subdick said that he's sure they played Woodson and Shorty and then they played some covers. And then actually years later, he talked to Texas is the reason. And they were like, yes, we canceled because we did not want to waste the gas to come play and pat the head's basement. Smart.

That's allowing for the first get-up show. I mean, Texas is the reason must be kicking themselves, you know? They could have played Pat the Head's basement. So then they're like, fuck yeah, we're a band. We need what we need is a single and a tour. Also, just a quick sidebar about the get-up kids' name. Matt said that an old band of his in high school had a song, I don't know, one of those old bands,

that the song was about whenever they'd play at this one coffee shop in the suburbs, all these punk kids would only come to that show. So it was like these suburban get-up. kids that would only come to the suburb shows. So that's what they would call them, suburban get up kids. So the name was meant to be suburban get up kids. But A, it's a bad name. But B, I think Matt Pryor was like all my prior band names were started with an S and they

didn't pan out. And I don't want to do another S name. So we'll just go with get up kids. I like that, a bit of magical thinking. Yeah. Yeah. Let's shift the energy. Yeah.

All right. Let's get into the first seven inch, 1996. shorthy B-side the breathing method Like what's interesting to me about their earlier stuff is I think they get a lot of

hate for we'll talk about like the emo subgenres and the classifications they're in but I think You will and I will listen Yeah and I have my whiteboard so it's good

but I just think it is you can hear more clearly the connection between those sounds of like when people call second wave Midwest emo right whatever the kind of

more experimental is like a broad term but, you know, more less just melodic and like playing more with rhythm and having all these other things going on. Alternative tuning. Alternative tuning. Sure, a little jazz. A little jazz. Yeah.

I think the earliest stuff kind of speaks more to that. And like I think then we'll get into it. But they then usher in a kind of a third wave, if you will, that is much more like melodically driven. And I think sounds got a lot more criticism later on. Yeah. They really do occupy kind of like a weird. space because they predate American football, or at least the first American football release. Right.

I guess they would have been sort of in a similar timeline as Captain Jazz. Yeah. Though there's no real evidence that they knew of or played with each other. Like, I don't know. I know that, like, braid and mineral and some of the other prominent Midwest emo bands, although Mineral is not from the Midwest. but, you know, lumped into that category were in this, like, kind of burgeoning scene with them as they would play shows with them. So, that being said, Shorty is great, and the breathing method is actually really beautiful. And these are kind of crazy to be your first two songs.

Yes. I agree. That's what I feel when I'm, like, if I see early videos of them or if I hear these early songs, it's that they're, like, musicians and they're very, like, ambitious composers, I would say. This is still Nathan Shea by the way on the first 7-inch he's a sculptor so Matt Breyer

calls him the sculptor in the book and he says we record three songs and the sculptor insist that he

scream on each one. We are not crazy about this but he seems adamant so we let it go. It's not really

the sound we're going for and I have no fucking idea what he's saying in any of these songs and you can

still hear it in the background so they bang out the 7-inch they pay for it with their own money, some studio in Nebraska

that charges by the song rather than the hour, great deal. And they mail that seven inch out to everyone that they can find on earth. Band friends, you know, they hit that maximum rock and roll, book your own fucking life Bible, which has done a great deal of good

in the punk and emo community. And they start getting some interest when they start signing up some shows for that summer. However, Nathan Shea, the sculptor, is like, I'm not going to tour. I have a sculpting internship or something. And so that's when they draft Ryan Pope up from high school, onto drums. According to Matt Pryor, the sculptor threw a spectacular tantrum and ceremonially broke a copy of the seven inch over his knee. That's awesome. I just thought it was really funny. Well, I don't know. It's so small. How do you

maybe it had a really skinny, skinny, skinny. Yeah. Okay. Now, now, this is May of 96, the second first show takes place in the lore of the get-up kids, which is the night of Jim, Rob, and Ryan Pope's high school prom, because they're still in high school. I think Jim and Rob were probably seniors. They play a show at a place called The Daily Grind. They took their dates out to dinner in a limo, popped into the gig, played in their tuxedos, high-tailed it to the prom. Very cool. Matt Pryor did load out because he was not in high school. anymore.

Yeah. And then they tour over the summer. They're like, let's go. A bunch of little places, including their third

first show, which is at the slant house in Madison with mineral and the promise ring. Fuck. We used to be a

proper country. Although, according to Matt Pryor, this show actually wasn't that great or well attended. So even though in

our imagination that's like a magic and miracle show, he was like, it was like whatever. But he said, later I catch the Promise Ring playing a mixtape on their van stereo. I'm surprised by their unironic love for top 40 pop radio and the hits of today,

which makes so much tons when you listen to The Promise Ring. He said, it leaves an impression on me. I've been so steeped in the indie rock underground and noise scene that I forgot what a joy of pop music is. And I get that. Yeah. It is joyful. Totally. And I think that does seep in to the shift in Get Up Kids music that starts to take place.

I mean, this is very early, so they only put two songs. But, you know, you can kind of see this arc is forming. He also mentions in his book being heavily influenced by the Kansas City very early. I don't even think would have been called emo because that wasn't super minted quite in that way yet with the band Boys Life. I was going to say, that feels like the other big Kansas City. I'm not really up on Boys Life, but I did listen some quite good, got to say. And also, hilariously, I just couldn't help but notice that the Spotify bio of, Boys Life starts with

While the Get Up Kids were still in braces Kansas City's Boys' Life were setting the pace for local post-hardcore shift towards emo That's not nice Well, isn't it? I mean, they're just setting the record straight Do they even have braces, you know? I don't know if they were doing it to have all the kids back then Such a good point. Anyway. There's no right There's no... Nothing wrong with orthotentiary. But anyway. I, myself, had headgear, and braces.

Boys Life got the Numero treatment. That's why I feel like they have a second life in a nice way. was really doing the heavy lifting of emo from that era, for sure. Bringing it be like, hey, you have ever heard of this shit? No? Okay, well, you're going to listen to it now. I imagine the email, the offices of Numero, they have like a big whiteboard and someone comes in, rolls in another whiteboard.

Yeah. And it's like, and all it has on it is a band, and the band is, what is it? Somebody asked about you. And they're like, perfect. Perfect. You've done it. We're putting it out. We're putting it out.

But yeah. So Boy's Life is the other. Kansas City, like, I feel like they were kind of putting them on the emo map a little bit before. And, but yeah, they set the stage in a way. Well, he also, this is just nerd shit, but I was quite delighted by it. In his book, Matt Pryor mentions two other local Lawrence bands that I've never heard of, and he describes them. Like, he's like two of the very best bands of the world are from Lawrence, Kansas.

One is called Kill Creek. They have 532 monthly listeners on Spotify. However, they are so good. I love when I find something like that. Thank you, Matt Pryor. It's really, really good. And then there's another one called Vitreous Humor. Also quite good.

That one is a little more, I think, well-known. But thank you, Matt Pryor. And if you guys at home, go listen to those because they're really good. Kiel Creek, I really enjoyed. His love of those bands aside, Matt Pryor says that the Get Up Kids are not part of the Kansas City music scene and pretty much are ignored. until they get noticed by Jackie Becker, who's the booker of the bottleneck in Lawrence, honestly one of the best venues.

I've been there somehow. It's really great. Matt Pryor calls it the troubadour of the Midwest. It's a big deal to be booked there. And then another really important biographical note is at the end of this summer, we're touring, we're playing with the Promiserian Mineral.

We are getting noticed by the Lawrence, Kansas, troubadour of the Midwest, the bottleneck. And then I actually literally don't know her name because he calls her something else in the book. He calls her Honey White in the book. I don't know what Matt Pryor's wife's name is. I'm sorry, don't blame me Matt Pryor's wife. I love to name people by name, but it's not in the book. She moves to Boston for school, starting along this relationship that will be incredibly inspirational for many songs.

I think when I first found the get-up kids, I thought they were from Boston. Many people because of the Mass Pikes song. And there's also, there's multiple, well, then there's that single they have the newfound interest in Massachusetts, after which I believe a band that's real called a newfound interest in Connecticut formed. But like, I think, based on that name, I think. Amazing. Yeah, this is all rooted in early wife guy, Matt Pryor, being absolutely devoted to his childhood sweetheart. who moved to Boston.

So much so that people think his band is from Boston. That's love. It's really beautiful. All right. So in the fall, they're like, let's send this seven inch to some labels. Like, let's get this popping. They do not get it popping. They're mostly rejected or ignored, except for two offers.

One, Matt Pryor calls a one-man kitchen table sort of affair that one takes on in their college years, which I, like, couldn't help but wonder Carrie Broucho voice if that was polyvinyl. since that's a college-based sort of one-man-ish thing, but that's just me speculating. And a hardcore label called Doghouse, formed by Dirk Hemsath in 1987. So this label wasn't exactly maybe like a genre fit,

but they had their own distribution. That was like a big part of the company and a partnership with an agency in Europe. And so they were like, well, we would have distro and we could play Europe. Yeah, it's a safe bet. It's a safe bet. The contract was for two albums and two EPs. So in 1997, first EP.

Woodson. I just want to quickly paint a picture of the music of 1997 that this is emerging into. You are not born. I'm two. You're two years old. Okay. So maybe you're enjoying some Spice Girls. It was.

At the house, yeah. Wallflowers, great band, put up bringing down the horse this year. Perhaps the only thing is just radio heads, okay, computer, huge deal. Modest mouse. I was going to say, yes.

That's a big deal. Another, like, are we Mar-O-in-O-Mo? What do we call them? Elliot Smith, either or. Sorry, I'm doing ASMR. Elliot Smith. Well, the promise ring. Nothing feels good.

Yeah, come on. Rainer Maria. Pass one. Static Prevails, Jimmy Orald, at the Drive-In, EP, I believe Cursive, another band that I'm not super familiar with, the ice cream party. Oh, you must. Jonah Vark. Cool. A portable model of Napsack.

Honestly, a really good band. Okay, so stuff's happening. Stuff's popping off. And Woodson comes into this world. They had promised two of these tracks to a tiny label in Rhode Island called Contract Records. So actually a newfound interest in Massachusetts, which you just referred to, and off the wagon initially came out that in a seven-inch. How do you feel about these songs? I mean, I'm like one of those people who loves their earlier stuff.

Yeah, unfortunately. Or like, or just, not just there. You're a music journalist? I have that tendency in all the bands to be like, I love their scrappy kind of homespun, rawness that you just miss. But so, yeah, I do really enjoy them. And I feel like I don't like go back as much because they're not as replayable. like they are a bit more, I don't know. Yeah.

Abasive maybe, but I think you can just hear a lot of the things that will come later, I think. Right, like the DNA. Yes. I mean, I'm with you. I have a kind of a long-held theory that rock music is like the sound of youth, you know. So there's a reason that we always like the earlier stuff. It's just, it's more visceral. It's more at the surface of what it's trying to get to.

It's just like right there. Like the veil is thin, if you will, whereas, like, unfortunately, the older you get, you'll make great music, but it's not going to have the immediacy. Nobody likes it when I say that. By nobody, I mean musicians. But I generally agree with that. And I'm sorry. I really like what's happening here on Woodson.

Like, second place, let's go fucking clapping. Let's fucking go. And a newfound interest in Massachusetts is actually a really beautiful song. It is. Not actually. Why would I say actually? It's a really beautiful song, period. They're building a fan base.

People are starting to kind of get into it. Woodson ups that fan base a little bit. They also go on a national tour with a braid and Ethel Miserve. You got it. The first date takes place after their high school graduation. Which ones? Well, it has to be because Ryan's still in high school. Ryan still in high school when they record four-minute mile.

Yeah. So it's Rob and Jim. Jim. Yeah. It's on this tour that they're. me James Dewey's. Huge. Huge.

He is the drummer for Coales, which is a pretty incredible post-hardcore band, and they played together at a show, which yields their split with Coalas. This split has

the Get Up Kids song Burned Bridges and the Coalas song, I'm giving up on this one. Split 7 inches were so cool. Such a marker of the burgeoning emo community. It's awesome. It really traces,

like, you know, they'll later, we'll talk about like they're split with, or they have the anniversary, and I'm like, were we ever so young? Were we ever so young and naive? This idea of community and this idea of, like, teaming up with a band that you feel a kinship with to, like, expose your audiences to each other's music. It's, like, so tender.

I agree. I love it. So the next, what they do is with Braid. It's called Postmark Stamps Number Four. The Get Up Kids put, I'm a loner, doughty, a rebel on this one. Crazy. I know. It's crazy.

I'm assuming not a ton of people heard it at that time, but that's going to become an important get-up kid's song. Yeah. Yeah. And then Braide's song is forever got shorter. And then September of that year, they put out their first album, Four Minute Mile, produced by the bassist of Schlaq, Bob Weston. Yeah. It's 28 minutes long. And how many?

It's like four, not four, it's 11 songs. Yeah, tight. I read later that they thought because they could record four songs in a day. They thought they could record 11 songs in two days, which is awesome math. Like you're like, I'm just going to get better. And actually I'm going to keep. Yeah, because it's not even correct because it would be eight songs. Right.

But I guess they had two and a half days because they started Friday, like afternoon. Basically, yeah, Ryan's in high school. So they like pick them up from school, high tail it over to Chicago. I think I was in Chicago that they recorded. And spend the entire weekend and then Sunday late night drive home. and they bang this thing out. I don't think they were very happy with the result. Yeah, later, I read like a Jim Subdick interview

where he called the Bob Weston collaboration, like a missed opportunity because, of course, you know, you're not going to know what to do with that. I feel like you wouldn't appreciate that as much when you have, like, until later in your career and also like two and a half days, you know. Yeah, I mean, they're children. I mean, knowing their taste,

I'm sure they could respect and valorize and venerate Bob Weston at the time, but I feel like at the same time, you just, you're there to make 11 songs in two days. Yeah. Matt Pryor said we spent every moment of those two and a half days at the studio, only breaking to eat pizza, watch The Simpsons in sleep. Sounds cool. I mean, yeah.

Apparently at the time they were listening, they asked much later, like, what were you listening to while you're making this? And they said, Boy's Life, Christie Front Drive, the first Jimmy World Record, because I come out earlier that year, and stuff like Unwound, but also a lot of pop music, like Weezer, and that whole synthy thing at the end of the song Don't Hate Me is very Rentals Friends of P. Love that song. Yeah, really great song. So good.

The first Rentals record was a big one for them at the time. I thought that was interesting. That's fascinating. I wonder how many other bands have ever mentioned the side project of Weezer, The Rentals. Yeah. I mean, Weezer has a pretty big influence on the Get Up Kids, which you can really. here, you know, which I think is kind of maybe is what differentiates them a little from, like, what's going on in the braid mineral, you know, the sort of Texas is the reason is a little more

esoteric. Sure. They seem to be driven more back to that, like, hearing the promiss ring, listen to radio pop. Like, I think they are drawn a little bit more to, like, pop elements and also, like, kind of 80s-easy, like synthy elements. Yeah, no, I think it's a bass station synth on that song and it's like, I think you just hear the things of band to come. That's how you say it. Starting a song with the words, forgive me is so emo. Like, you're just not going to beat those allegations.

Forgive me. What else sticks out to you on four-minute mile? I mean, it's a pretty, it's a lot talk about. It's a lot of other, I mean, I again, like, I honestly listen to this record almost as much as the one that comes after it, I would say, just because I enjoy, like, how they're really going for it. I think Michelle with 1Ls goes back to also the, also the, like, Midwest emo allegations, I think, can be

put to rest that they were a Midwest emo band. It's very beautiful. It's very slow. I mean, there's just a lot there that I think you could hear that they were going to be a massively popular. I do think this. I mean, you always look back in retrospect, but I feel like they must have

At least, I hope, drove back from Chicago being, like, we have, like, one or two. I mean, there's, there's an absolute bad. Better half? Come on. That's a god tear song. Come on. You could just tell he's an old soul, which I really appreciate. It's also a band across the board where you could tell that they are writing the lyrics down and, like, editing them, like, erasing.

And, like, you know what I mean? I think it kind of goes back to, like, what we were talking about with, like, the background of Matt Pryor, like, being exposed to, like, coffee shop poetry and sort of, like, trying his hand at poetry. You know? Like, I really love that. Matt said, I remember we had 10 songs and we felt like we needed one more. So the song that's called Lowercase West Thomas, we wrote randomly in the studio. That song is our friends, I guess about our friends, Brian Case and Robert Lowe, not the actor. So that's Lowe and Case and they lived on West Thomas, which was the apartment that we stayed in when we were making the record.

Okay. There you go. A little lore, a little bit of lore. It's funny. I feel like this is like they also have a very Jimmy World situation in which like some people are like four minute mile truther. Like that is the, that's the album. And then some people are something to write home about truthers. Right.

Just the same way like clarity and Bleed American. Yeah. Yeah. Where do you fall? Something to write home about is to me a categorically better record for many reasons that we'll talk about. Something to write home about is me standing outside, love actually style, with the sign. to me you're perfect. That's how I feel about something to write home about. It's an

absolutely, you know, it's an album many have used to woo a lover or even to put on a mixtape. It's also just, it's trick, a dorm mate. Yeah, many uses for that. But of course I feel like, you know, also I think I listened to something to write home about, frankly, first. It wasn't

like I wasn't going in order. That was your own true point. You know, a 12 year old finding this band. But I feel that four minute mile Yeah, it definitely, as far as, like, debut LPs goes, is tremendous. And it's like, you know, especially knowing. They really kind of popped out fully formed in some ways, you know, like, and maybe it's just like, which is crazy giving, like, their teenagers or 19. But they've been in so many bands at this point.

They've been in a bunch of bands. They start with us. That start with us. And they're, you know, they didn't come here to play a bit. No. Well, they came to play music. They came here to play music, but not to play. But yeah, and then they toured with Braid again after.

And I think you're also just like you're seeing bands that are all like very professional. I have to imagine that those tours were quite tame. You know what I mean? Even like they're not partying. They're rock star vibes. Yeah, I don't think they're Mali Crew, even though they like Mali Crew. Who knows? It's true.

Because there is some messiness, but it's like the kind of messiness that like is very. Well, they couldn't legally drink at bars, which obviously, you know, stops everyone and no one drinks. And no wine cellar because it's a recording studio. Right. No erasure of J-June, by the way. toured with Jay June. Oh, well, that's really cool. Did you do it?

Great. Yeah, we don't do Jay June or Arasure on this podcast. They also toured with Jimmy Eat World that year in December, and that's, I love this, Tid. So they're touring with Jimmy Eat World in December, and this is when the get-up kids first hear Clarity. Because remember, clarity was floating around for a long time before it came out. And I read that they were like, well, we better fucking up our game. Jim's update called, like, he said, there's an air of friendly competition.

which is really fun. I can't imagine hearing clarity. I mean, like, motherfucker. Yeah. Back to the drawing board. Not that form it is an amazing, but I mean, clarity is. Yeah. You're going to step it up.

Yeah. So Ryan Pope is meant to go to college because he's graduating high school. But the get-up kids get offered a tour in Europe with Braid. That's what you're talking about. And he's like, never mind. I'll go to college later. I'm going to go to Europe with Braid. So they do that.

And then at some point in this, in 1998, James from COOLUS moves in with the Pope brothers and becomes their roommate. And he and Matt are hanging out a bunch because they are the only ones who are now 21 years old and can legally drink up bars. So they're doing that. And they bond over singing. And music theory. Apparently Matt said that James taught him about music theory and how to sing harmonies and stuff. This is also the same year that James recorded his first solo album under the name. Reggie and the Full Effect.

As a joke, he says, which is, I'm like, how do you record an album as a joke? Like, what's the joke? It's really good. Maybe the name? That's funny, and he's funny, and... Greatest hits 1984 to 1987, I believe, is the album title. Well, and then, like, his next record was called promotional copy. Confusing.

Funny. It's so great. But, like, laugh out loud funny. I don't want to besmirch anyone, but I'm not a Reggie girl. I understand. But I'm happy for everyone. I'm not turn into it, but I actually... like from that era of just like first of all I'm very impressed by him because he it's like

he's like oh what are you guys doing sorry I'm just making a joke record that's actually quite polished and incredibly advanced and I'm gonna play every instrument on it yeah all the time um I was I looked into it obviously I'm not or maybe not obviously but I'm not checking in on Reggie that much but obviously before this to see what they're up to these days you mean what he's up to yeah and he released a record I want to say in 2017 called 41 and if you look at it I'll try to pull it up, but he was parodying Adele's 21 on the cover. Because he was 41. Because he was 41.

And it's like, that's actually funny now because, you know, that's a different age. And you're a man. That's really good. He nails it. It's really good. You know, listeners at home, but I really recommend. And it opens with like an Italian kind of like operatic. Forty one does?

Yeah. Incredible. First, yeah. He's clearly like very talented. And I think part of the thing that I'm, I read that I enjoyed was like they had a piano in this house, the Pope House, and they would just be like, play Eternal Flame by the Bengals, and he could just play anything? I believe it.

Yeah. He's a highly talented guy. Yeah. Is it too funny? Is it too goofy for you? Like, is that where you come down? I just, like, it's not for me. That's okay.

Yeah. They end up, like, after all this hanging and this, like, music theory talk and bonding over singing, they're like, well, actually, maybe we should have a keyboardist in the band, like, we should have James in the band. but he has to tour with Kola first so that doesn't happen quite yet. Now the band is getting bigger and bigger, right? They are, like, rightfully so. People are hearing four-minute mile

and being like, holy shit. Yes, I fuck with this heavy. And they start getting label interest, you know, including from subpop and Geffen, which I thought was interesting. And Mojo.

And Mojo. Or they briefly even say maybe. Yeah. Mojo's such a weird one. to be, I think they just really like the ANR guy is what I read. And that's, because Mojo was home to real big fish and goldfinger at the time. So it's not exactly like a stylistic fit per se. And Cherry Pop and Daddies.

Of course, how could I forget Cherry Pop and Daddies? So we have a bit of Scott, we have a bit of swing, you know, we have everything going on. The Spirit of the 90s is alive at Mojo Records. They also had a joint venture at this time with Universal. So they were like arguably both in D&A major, like they had the power to. But remember, like, the get-up kids are still signed to Doghouse. They have not fulfilled their contract. They've put out one EP and one album.

They're signed for two EPs and two albums. The reason that they were unhappy with Doghouse is because Doghouse could not or would not, I don't know, keep up with their growth. And I think it was partially to do with the fact that the did. distribution system was in-house in the sense that, like, they prioritized the vinyl that they were able to print up to distribute it because that's their bread and butter, not sending it to the band to be able to sell on tour. And, like, there's just some other things, I think, that, like, they were feeling, like, okay, you can't keep up with what we're trying to do here.

Yeah, there's an article I read from, I want to say, yeah, 2000 CMJ article that's like, they sold 40,000, which is great. First of all, it's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah. And they would have sold more, if not, for. for issues with doghouse. Keeping in mind that they're not on the radio or MTV

or anything that would, you know, promote the selling of so many records. Okay. So, they're in talks with Mojo, but it's, like, extremely difficult and contentious. Mojo also had requested that they re-record don't hate me

for the next record because they were like, that's a single, it just needs to sound better. Like, your voice is out of key or something? To be fair, it's a huge bop. It's a huge bop, but they were like, that's offensive. You think that's the best we can do. We can do better. They also wanted to own merchandising rights, which is like when you're selling T-shirts on the road. Also, this is just a sidebar, but Alex Ross Perry and I were talking about this on last week's episode, and I can't stop thinking about it because it's so right. What happened in this specific genre where people were like,

black and white T-shirts? We're done with that. Well, we need as maroon, yellow, navy, baby blue, and it was just a bunch of men wearing two small, baby blue and yellow t-shirts. And you're mad about that? It's ugly. It's interesting. I am mad about it. I'm going to be mad about it in the newspaper. I remember I was super into panic at the disco, and I was, like, looking up old photos of Ryan Ross, because you're a 12-year-old girl.

He's the primary songwriter. I know who that is, but not me when I was 12. We were looking at photos of Kirk Cobain. It was a different. Oh, well, that's better. That's better. But there's like a picture of him. He took, like, a digital camera selfie.

Anyways, wearing a yellow... Of course he did. From here. Tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny yellow modest mouse with, I think, a water buffalo on it. I'm, like, this is why I can't be trusted to finish my deadlines on time because I will spend, like, six hours going in a rabbit hole of, like, who did this? Who decided we need maroon T-shirts now? I think it's probably also because we were talking about, if I can, you know, just pontificate, like, the, or just, my guess is, you know, the prepiness. of like, you know, they rejected it because all these kids are like suburban kids who are in like, not all, but many are growing up in that time. And I feel like it bleated into maybe their desire to have some color and like separate themselves also as well. Like they're, you know, they're emotional. And weirdly, I feel like the black was like too tough for them. I see. Yeah. They were too, they were pussies. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding you guys.

Sweeties. I'm really happy for them, but I don't want any of those issues. and I'll never wear them. Good for them. Yeah, throw mine away. Yeah, no, you guys can do whatever you want to do. I just think black and white t-shirts were great if it ain't broke. So maybe the most pressing issue was that whatever label signed get-up kids would have to pay $50,000 to buy them out of their doghouse contract. Around this time is when our pal Rich Egan approaches them to become their manager.

I asked him, I was like, how did you, like, what did you, like, how did you, like, how did you even find, because he approached that. He was just like, and he was just like, yeah, I heard four-minute mile, like, I heard the music, it was incredible. Like, someone brought it into the office and was like, you got to hear this? I mean, they had one band at that time. I think Vagrant had face-to-face. Like, they were not, it's not exactly like a huge operation at the time. Maybe they had one. I think they had put out also, like, one seven-inch before that of another band that I can't remember respectfully to Vagrant Records.

So it's not like they were like a huge label, but what he said was that he heard newfound interest in Massachusetts for the first time on a mixtape. And he said it was the best song he'd heard in forever, and he made it his mission to hunt them down. So he approached them not to sign them at first just to be their manager. Rich Egan said in the oral history, they're fighting with Doghouse. They want to go to Mojo. And I'm like, really? The cherry popin daddies and the get-up kids? So Ridge Egan is like, you guys, I'm your manager.

I've been trying to work this stuff out for you, but it's not working. Why don't we just put it on a vagrant? You have the songs done, because they already had most of the songs written for something right at home about. And he's like, you guys are going nuts, we've got to get it on the road, let's just put it on a vagrant. Meanwhile, unbeknownst to the get-up kids, they're like, yeah, okay. John Cohen's parents had to take a mortgage out on their house in order to get the money together to buy that contract out. How do you think he explained that to his parents? Do you think he showed them?

In what? He was like, I need you to hear, I'm a loner, I'm a rebel, and I know you're going to understand that you need to go to the bank right now. Yeah.

My parents would be like, you need to go to law school. Get out of my face. Yeah. Well, that's the kind of, that's the other end, maybe, of the middle class, like, you know,

punk middle class. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's very cool. The Santa Monica Boys. right before they record something to write home about, Matt Pryor lost an entire notebook full of lyrics he had written for these songs, and he had to start from scratch. Or I was stolen, I guess.

Oh, wow. Yeah. Are the demos from that notebook? Is that? I think it was even prior to them recording demos. Yeah. Because he said, like, a lot of the songs he had to start over completely from scratch. So it must have been prior to the demos.

He said maybe it made them worse, but having the time and honestly hyperfixing on it and rewriting and rewriting and rewriting was beneficial. So maybe that's why the words are so sort of good. Well, one of my favorite sliding doors of emo history is that, you know, Holiday was supposed to start totally differently. Like the lyric, well, because the demos are now out. They did this reissue for 25, so that would have been, whatever, so I went 20, 2004. Yeah, yeah, on polyvinyl.

Yeah, beautiful reissue. But I... Written about by one Ariel Gordon on pitchfork. Oh. But yeah, so the original lyrics are, see you every year and yet we don't embrace, which would be a different start to the song. I don't like it as much.

Oh, you like what they landed on? Much better, I think. See you every year and yet we don't embrace. You're right. What is this? Talking about Grandma? I know. At Christmas time?

Who are you not embracing? Once a year, you see it. You're right. I can't argue with it. So it makes sense that they did a lot of rewriting, is what I'm saying. Yeah, many versions. Love that. Love that James is finally in the band, Dewees. I keep not saying his last name because I feel like I'm saying it wrong. And then they head on over to Tintill Town, babe. Los Angeles, California, actually Silver Lake, to start recording something to write home about.

Do you think it sounds like a Silver Lake record? No. Angelina? No. I don't think so. Do you think so? Well, I've only been to Silver Lake a couple times, and it doesn't sound like the two places I've been there, which is the Silver Lake Lounge, and the Aeroon there. If I heard that song in either of those places, I'd be very confused. I don't want to hear any music that sounds like the Aeron and Silver Lake. Oh.

They should, whatever that music is, they should use it at Guantanamo. It's like Believer by a Magic. No, that's not it either. It's kind of... No, it's something else. Something else, I'll think about it. Father John Misty? I don't know.

We don't want to go down this road. They stay at Kevin Kusatsu's house, who's their friend. This is only for like some real heads in the audience because Kevin Kusatsuu was the first intern at Vagrant Records at like 13 or 15 years old or something, and later became Diplos manager. Huge. Yeah. I see the connection.

The arc. Yeah. And they bring along their tour manager, Alex Brawl, and they go ahead and record, well, they had already recorded Red Letter Days, the EP, because they needed to fulfill part of the rest of the doghouse contract. So they didn't need more mortgage? No more mortgage.

simply one mortgage of John Cohn's parents' house. This was produced by Ed Rose. It had James on it. I want to talk about it first, obviously, because it comes out first, even though it's within the same year. And there's overlap, which, you know, I am curious about if they didn't want to re-record, don't hate me.

It was when they wanted them to re-record. And then Red Letter Day. Okay, I have so many questions here. Number one, it's not that I don't like Red Letter Day. It's a good song. You have motherfucking mass pike in your hands. You have a treasure. You have a winning lottery ticket.

And you're like, no, we'll just leave that on that AP and we won't put it on the album. I just like, that's my sliding doors moment. What happens? What's the alternate history of the get-up kids if Mass Pike is on something to write a hell about? Don't you feel like that could have been a radio hit? Like, that could have been like, now we're death cab for cutie, you know? But they were for a moment. Not really.

Yeah, I guess they never... They never hit. Really, really hit. But they were... They didn't have radio hit. I mean, Death Cab for... Come on. No, of course.

You know? They never got to that level. Well, I think the Death Cab for Cutie single level is like what... Or Jimmy Whorles is a good example. True. They didn't have the middle on there. But, I mean, I wonder if unnamed wife was kind of like, I don't know. Like, I'm a little nervous about having a song about me on there.

I mean, all the songs are about her. That's true. Every song on something to write home about her. It's either about her or about the label boss, so. True. Yeah. And you can't tell sometimes. You can't tell sometimes.

Sorry, that's just my, that's my hill all die on. I'm just like, I'm so curious what the alternate history is if Mass Pike is on something to write home about. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, Ann Arbor also something I think about where I'm like, you left it there. You could have done more in that song, really beautiful. Also a fun pun because it's spelled like a name. Like a name.

Yeah. And there's some rumors that it might, question mark, be question mark about Adrian from the anniversary? Oh, right, because that's maybe starting at that time. Rob Pope and Adrian, who was... I didn't need her last name. I wouldn't pull it up. Verhoven. Thank you.

Who got married and later quite quickly divorced. And part of the deal with Vagrant, the get-up kids had an imprint and heroes and villains, I think it was called. Yeah. And then one of the bands, maybe the first band they put out was the anniversary. Yes. Yeah. Also a Kansas City Bend? I believe so.

Yeah, I think so too. Well, Red Letter Days is amazing. It's kind of a crazy collection of songs to use, to fulfill an obligation. Again, and I don't know what they were trying to do, but it's just, there's really good songs on there, and not limited to Mass Pike, which is a God tier, a God tier song. Yes. It's got Twinkle Daddy energy. You know, it's the song that makes people sing there from Boston.

It's so catchy. It's like a sing-along, anthemic. Yes. I read for that song. It's okay. We have a different, we have a different timeline. A different history, yeah. Pitchwork, give this a 5.1.

How do you feel about that as someone who is associated with pitchwork.com? The EP? That that was very generous of them at the time. At the time, that was probably the nicest that they could have ever been. That was essentially them being like, this is a 10. This is a 9.5. I'm being like, okay, like, good job, you know. But, because, you know, I think they only got harsher and meaner.

And maybe that also speaks to, like, if I could bring myself to be a pitchwork editor in 1997. Mm-hmm. He could occupy the mind and heart. Yeah, I'm dressed awesome. Are you, though? Are you, though? I'm wearing a button-up shirt. And I'm sitting in Chicago, and I'm listening, and I don't know where these guys fit in.

I might think maybe that they're lit. Like, I don't know if I know what emo is, or I know what emo is coming up at my pitchfork, but maybe I think emo is like actually kind of cool still because I'm still like, embrace. And then also, you know, thinking about American football, things that maybe more critically pleasing. Yeah. Or felt more mature adults, question mark. And then I think what we hear as amazing pop sugar success on the next record may be a critic at pitchfork.com in 1999 would hear as a sellout. Yeah, yeah. is turned off by.

So 5.1 I say I was expecting lower. Amazing stuff. Amazing stuff. Amazing commentary. Yeah, so that was July of 99. Also insanely they had to forfeit their vinyl rights

to get out of the doghouse contract, which is really nuts. All right. September 28, 1999, something to write home about, is birthed into this world. They recorded it this producer named Chad Blinman?

Yes, who I was looking at his, like, discography, and it's all the bands that you love that you say really loving. Saves a day, senses fail. This is all after this. Yes, after.

Yeah, I think prior to that, he had... Face to Face to Face. I'm a huge face-to-face fan. I'm a young Warpedor child, so... What was it like? It was fun. Yeah, I bet. Yeah, it was really fun.

Yeah, cool. Yeah. I remember the first year I went, Eminem played. That's fun. That kind of matches the energy. He was boot off stage, but yeah. Really? It was when he had only put out real slim shady.

But also ICTM Body Count played that year, and they were universally beloved. Okay. It was really fun. It was like, you know, the vandal. It was a great time, less than Jake. Yeah. Good, fun times. Yeah, so Chad Linman is not trusted by the get-up kids.

They bring Alex Brawl, their tour manager, and they say, said that they basically brought him because they were like, we want to ensure this Chad person doesn't fuck up our sound. Matt Pryor said the only thing we knew of Blimman was that he was an industrial goth who'd worked with face-to-face. We don't want to sound like either of those things. It's a bit rude. Would you agree with that?

Yeah, I think that's probably right. They succeeded, yeah. Yeah. I don't think this record sounds like either of those things. It took six weeks to make. I thought this was interesting. What Matt Pryor was listening to a lot. But when they were doing the record was Wilco's summer teeth, which is one of my favorite

Wilco records because I like in the parlance of the, I like the earlier stuff. It is the best. I really think that. I just like that kind of Wilco better than the later kind of Wilco, but I know that I'll be like flailed in the town square by certain men for saying that. And that's fine. We all have our opinions. Okay.

Yeah. And then clarity. Right. So they had been inspired by clarity, now clarity's out. They've purchased it. They're listening. And the Wilco thing makes a lot of sense. Like, it does sound like if I'm always in love, like the sense there?

Come on. Yeah, yeah. Totally. Ripped and torn from there. And then they wanted the guitars to sound like the foo fighters, the color and shape, which had just come out. And do you think they succeeded? You know what? Whenever I talk about how guitars sound, I'm doing cosplay, because that's like shit, I don't really understand.

Yeah. No, we're not supposed to call them crunchy. Well, sometimes they are crunchy. Yeah. Like, what are we supposed to do? I'm going to tell you something, though. Color and Shape is maybe the only food fighters I'll make with. Okay. Interesting. I mean, the first one as well.

Yeah. But ever long, bro? Yeah. I get it. 1999 was crazy. Everlong. Everlong. Everlong God-tier song to this day.

When I was doing research for this, I found an interview. from 2024, I think, so it must have been from the reissues at Jim. Jimmy Septic, do you think he was by Jimmy ever? I think you should. Maybe it was too confusing with Jimmy in the world.

And also James is also in the band, too. A lot of Jims and Jimmy's and Jameses. But Jim, Subdick was talking about right after they had recorded. He was showing some of the demos to Chris Schifflett, who was the guitarist, I believe, for Foo Fighters or one of them at the time.

Food Fighters had just played a small show in Kansas City. And he showed them the demos. And before he showed them, Chris said, are there a bunch of pick slides on it? As a joke, you know, because every band these days has pics slides. It's kind of like read him for a filth, as they said. Do you have much of pic slides? And he's like, just two.

Just two. Just the two. Just the two. Just the two back-to-back. Yeah. That's really funny. I thought this was interesting. Ian Cohen said Ian Cohen, the expert.

Good friend. Yeah, great. of me. Talk about emo expert. He had said in a piece, I think probably about, I don't know if it was about the rea or not, I didn't write it down, but he said, I think of it this way.

Something to write home about is to super chunk, what never mind was to the pixies. Okay, wow, that's a lot. It makes a lot of sense, actually, if you think about it. It's like Nirvana took inspiration from a lot of what the pixies were doing. Obviously, the quiet, loud thing comes from the pixies, you know. But then what they did with it, kind of helped to mint a whole new genre, which was grunge.

Sure. This is not what Ian's saying. I'm just taking that and extrapolating on it. And, like, in many ways, something to write home about, like, is very rooted in the kind of indie rock, melodic indie rock that superchunk made. But then they kind of used that with the other things they had going on. And also, you can't get away from Matt Pryor's voice. Yeah. Not that you would want to.

I'm just saying, like, that, I think his vocal quality alone pushes it a little into the email. space. Would you not agree? Or the punk space? I mean, that pitch and the, like, slight measliness is very associated with, like, emo and punk music. Yeah, Super Chunk is funny to me because Max's voice is, can be that at times. Like, I would say that there are songs that I, they actually sound quite similar to me, but also they get classified in as more, well, because merge. I think Merge Records has a lot of the kind of classification based on who's on that label.

I think it, like, retroactively makes people think about Supertrunk a little bit differently is my theory where it's like any, you know, interesting. saying, like, if you're destroyer's on your label, then, like, maybe you're not actually emo or something. Even though I think some of their songs do sound quite similar, too. And, yeah, I think they also toured together on some of my Superchunk and The Get Up Kids. I guess, like, that's what I wanted to ask you, like, maybe to back up. Like, you are a woman in M. Music.

A woman in emo music. An expert on this. What elements do you think the Get Up Kids, and in particular something to write home about, have that sort of earned them their place, like whether they wanted or not, in the canon of, like, second wave emo. Yeah, I think, well, they also, I think they were, like, the progenitors of, they bridged this, this gap really well, I think. Between second and third wave, which I would consider to be, like, third wave is where

you're getting just, like, any teenager in the world who knows how to play three chords or whatever is making a band. And I think it, even though the get-up kids are, like, skilled musicians and have a lot going on, You know, there's a lot of power chords. They make it seem, I think, a little bit more effortless. And also, I think the lyrical content is a big thing people talk about a lot. Right. The shift anyway of just being so unabashedly kind of.

The yearning. Yarning and not afraid to sound like you're crying as you're singing, kind of. And the suburban kind of woes. Like, you know, how the actual record starts, as we know, famously. A, two pick slides. Right. And then what became of everyone I used to know, which is everyone.

can see him reading that at the coffee house, you know. And what do you think about that part about his vocal tone, Matt Pryor's vocal tone? Like, do you think that is an element that sort of helps shift them? Well, it just sort of helps place them within the emo genre, again, whether they want to or not. Like, it's... Yeah, I think then you get saves the day and, you know, you also, I guess we're kind of, through being cool was 99, 2000. I should know this.

But it's about around the same time. I think you get this wave of disaffected suburban kids who all channel this nasly thing. And I also think that you then move away from this more like post-hardcore low. Right. Like quiet, not actually even. I feel like a lot of early emo is a bit more subdued, if you could say. Yeah, like this is the bridge between their. sort of tourmates and friends in braid and mineral and stuff and also what came a little bit

before sunny day real estate that's this kind of a very different value proposition within the same genre and this sort of begets the more pop punk-esque version is that about right i think that's correct yeah because i think that's exactly what it is you know it's pop-driven uh they're going for Like, I think it wouldn't sound out of place in, I don't know, like a Hanson. There's like a Hansen quality almost. Well, yeah, because it is, it's incredibly catchy and fast-paced and pop. And pop, ultimately. That's why I'm kind of surprised I didn't have bigger radio crossover in that way,

especially what was happening at the time. And I think it was also just like younger sounding. I don't know how to really quantify that than something like in circles or something like this. where like if you're a 12-year-old kid, you are probably going to prefer the kind of... Yeah, in circles is quite heavy. I mean, in circles kind of seamlessly fit in with the back half of the 90s. The Seattle thing. Coming out of sort of grunge into that, it made a lot of sense.

Although I wouldn't call it grunge at all. But, you know, it's more of a mucky sound in the best way. It's thick, you know. This is not that. Yeah. In terms of what then creates the fallout boys of the world, like what I think they were hearing. It's, you know, I think the, like, Fall Out Boy, for example, they were playing in groups called, like, P.O. He once was in a hardcore group called, or screamo group called race trader, where there was just, like, very hard and very, like, screaming vocals, whatever.

And I think that this allowed a whole generation to kind of soften a little bit also and be like, we can write pop song. It's okay, guys, you know? Like, don't be scared. It's going to be fine. And actually, it's great. And, like, that, I think, is a bigger shift that they helped usher in. Totally. Matt Pryor said about the title that it came from Jim talking to his mom on the phone.

He said he was telling about the record and all the shows they were going to do and they were having so much fun. And she said, well, you definitely have something to write home about. And they were like, oh, well, all our lyrics are really about leaving home, singing the world, being a bunch of kids who dropped out of school to be in a rock band. Like, that's the core of the album. So that's how the name got minted. I love that. Thanks, Mom.

Thanks, Mom. Should we talk about the artwork real quickly before we get into the music? Do you know who did it? I should have... Yeah, Travis Millard, who at the time went by the name Fudge. He's an amazing artist. He's, I think, has done a lot of, like, skateboard artwork sense. I mean, he's a real fine artist.

But at the time, he was just, like, their pal, fudge, that Jim, you know, famously went to art school. So went with him. And they were, like, really on a deadline. Like, they were like, we need art. And so they hit a fudge. And they're like, it's going to be a threefold gatefold record. We want one painting that's going to go across the entire front cover. And on the inside, it's another painting.

Two really long paintings. And it needs to be in Santa Monica by next Friday. Yeah. And he was like, I felt sick to my stomach. I was like, I have to go home. I didn't even finish my beer. They were at a bar. And so he finishes.

And then I guess, so they're back in Kansas Town or Kansas City. And Rob Pope's like, he invites me to his studio in this weird little barn, and he shows me the drawings of these punk dudes playing guitars, and their faces are all fucked up, and they have horns. It's like bearded ladies having a beer, like, side show stuff, basically. Sounds cool. He sounds really cool. And Rob Pope was like, have we listened to the record?

It's not this aggressive. I just feel like this isn't really match. And Ryan Pope was like, can we just do something a little softer? So he was like, oh, I'm fucked, man. I'm totally fucked. He said I was sitting around my room wondering what I was going to do. I had this toy that my dad had had that was his from the 50s on a shelf of knickknacks. It's like a wind-up toy.

I started to draw that robot, and then I thought of robots caring for each other. I liked that. A dichotomy of these robotic things that have feelings for each other, and they're sharing this tender moment on the couch. And I think that makes a lot of sense with the record much more sense than the period. It's so funny. You do think that? You know who did not think that was Matt Pryor. He was like, okay, so he sees it at the end.

like, what the fuck do robots have to do with anything? The songs, the lyrics, the album title, none of them indicate robots. Fine, fuck it. There's no time to debate it. I think he's come around to it since. And he said that he kind of thinks that maybe Travis Mallard invented this, like, retroactively invented this story about the finding the kids. Yeah.

But anyways, either way, I think I can't think of the album without thinking of the artwork. Sorry, I know. I'm laughing because I'm trying to imagine the record, but it's just about robots. Right. It's just like actually about robots. And it's different. But it is kind of like who what fall in love? Who fall in love?

Who fall in love? Who are mad about how their label had treated them? Very granddaddy, that record to me. But I feel, yeah, like, that's interesting. I also think that also helps all the record, frankly. Like, if you're a young woman, that's a nice cover. You're like, that says pink in it? You think that it's appealing to women?

I think it was their appeal to women to make the cover pink and purple. Got it. No, and also just... Female colors. feet for ladies sure sure it also just sets it apart

in this like it is a little yeah like again the youth thing I think it's a very like because their other covers are kind of classic emo

it's definitely more exactly I think I was going to say it's more legible like it's like a very like memorable it's figurative

I think so that's the joke about emo covers right it's like okay this is a roof with snow on it that's the American

football like they're all just like this very like sort of illegible landscape type. That was kind of the going thing for album artwork at the time. And they were like, oh, here's these two cartoon robots who love each other. And people were like, oh. Interesting. Yeah, it's softer. It's sweeter. Yeah. And it's also to me does sound like it because, not to get too much in the cover, but yeah, just in terms of not a lot of bands were incorporating that much like kind of mogi sounding synth. And I think that is

a little bit like a robot. That's a great point. Well, like, you know, the anniversary also did that. And I feel like their cover to that record, like the in Detroit record, is all things ordinary. It's all pixelated because it sounds, because, you know, MoG has, anyway,

it's cute. Computer. Computer. All right, let's talk about the music. Let's. You already said, it starts with holiday, pick slides. We did not fucking come to play, babe. We have two pick slides, let's fucking go. It really is a way of being like, I'm tired wasting time. Right. I've been

enough bands. Yeah. They all, have failed to launch is like my one shot. We have more time and 10 times as much money. And let's record. I think it was, I think the budget was 40. That's what I heard that they got from the big grant at the end of the day. I'm not sure. I'm not sure, but that sounds, I mean, they definitely had six weeks instead of two and a half days.

Much better. Yeah. But then also all new notebook, I guess. And an all new notebook. It's so interesting that the like lyrical considerations of these songs sort of go back and forth between love of my life, I'm separated from you, and label head you've, at two Brute, you've stabbed me in my back and I hate you, but they still sound like love songs. Yeah.

Yes. Like, even, it's very much Dave Matthews singing about his lawyer in number 41, which I thought was the most beautiful love song on earth, and then I'm like, that's about your lawyer. And Holiday is about, from what I can tell, the situation with doghouse. Yeah. No, I mean, it's also just, I think anger was a very, was in, you know. in terms of, and like, maybe you could push it on to, of course, being angry at the world or angry at your hometown. And I think that kind of vagueness, even though it is about doghouse, clearly, yeah.

I mean, it could also be about, that's kind of the magic trick of it. It could be about the relationship. It's really difficult to tell, you know? I guess I do talk about seeing you once a year because maybe I will see you on holiday. So the original opening lyric of see you at once a year and yet we don't embrace comes back. And it's maybe when they go through town on tour, you know? Right. And they're like, all right, fuck what?

probably is how they talk. And yeah, I think it's very... What I think about this record, and I think Matt Pryor has spoken to, is like it's difficult, it must be so difficult to sing on tour. Like, I'm not a singer or a guitarist, but these are like, in terms of the pitch

and also the amount of syllables, like, I feel like that's also what Emo gets, like a lot of hate for, like at least third wave, where it's these very poetic, bookishly, like overridden. Not overridden, in this case, but it can be overridden.

They really fit a lot of words. in there. The evidence presents itself accusingly. I can't even say it, like, speak it, you know? And then he, I think in future interviews, or later interviews, as we would say, would say that he wished that they recorded the record like half a step down. Like, they tuned it down a little bit, because it's hard

to hit that every week, even him. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It's funny. I never thought about that, but that is sort of such a tentpole thing about emo is, like, the wordiness. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just going to tell you a Valentine is one of the best songs that's ever been written, and I will cry, and constance aren't so constant anymore, and I love it so much.

It's beautiful. That's my journalism. It's, and that's really, I all agree with you wholeheartedly, and they don't, I think, play it anymore. Why? Because I think it's about Adrian from the anniversary. So. In words you forget to anniversary songs. Yeah.

That's okay. There you go. But, uh. That's it very interesting. So. again, I don't know if it is about her or not, but if it is an early version of Matt writing from the perspective of Rob, right? Because Rob didn't write these lyrics. Right. Matt wrote them. Yeah. Which is an interesting thing to do, right? I think that's, shows speak to his talent, you know? Because I'm just like, he can write love songs for himself. He can write them for other people. And also, I think that they probably were just spending so much time together that they were just heavily bouncing around ideas.

And it doesn't really matter, right? Because it's like, what it really is about is, like, being on tour and being away from someone you love, right? I'm, you know, we're gone all the time. I'm a world away. Yeah. You know? They do repeat a lot of lyrics, I guess, here, because even saying world away, like,

that's on two of their biggest hits, you know? But I think that's also part of why it was easy to probably learn and easy for kids to learn because they're like, there's not that many. And, yeah, no, Valentine, I wish they still played live. I like what Nico Stratis said about it and spin. She said, this is a perfect snapshot of the way any distance, emotional or physical feels oceanic in scope.

Beautiful. Here's Red Letter Day, the wrong song off the EP. But a great song. A real, like, fuck you, you know? I wonder if that, I mean, pure speculation fanfic on my part, I wonder if that's why they wanted to put this on here because they were like, you know what? It wasn't enough to put it on the EP.

Fuck you twice. It's on the album that we left and went on another label to do. Yeah, that's 100. 100% why they did it if I can get in their minds. We're loyal like brothers, just us versus all the others. You're the one. You're the one for me. I trusted misleading promises worth repeating.

How could you do this to me? Loyal like brothers was very sweet and very like that must have hurt. Like now I understand. And also opening it with you've got some nerve. You've got some nerve. I have these are really imprinted on my soul. Out of reach, ma'am. Yeah.

I mean. Sobing. Come on. Weeping. I've smiled. I've smuggled myself into new nationalities. You'd be proud of me. I don't really know what that means, but I love it.

It's beautiful. I think he's probably just talking about tour. And he's like, you know what? This is smuggling myself. Myself into new nationalities. Right, right, right. European tour. Yeah, there was a lot made in the book about, like,

again, we have to keep remembering they're like 21 years old. And 18 and 19 and 21. It's like a huge deal to go to Europe, you know? I've read this interview from like just after it came out where they're like, it's with Ryan. And he's like, I think 20. at the time. He's like, well, we're old now, so I don't know what comes next. I was just like, oh, baby, you're 20.

Yeah, I really, I just, there's room to believe out of sight, out of mind, out of reach. Start over is no way to begin. Come on. Come on. When we talk about third wave emo, it's like the people get embarrassed by it because it's so vulnerable and because it's just so overly indulgent of like self-pitying. And I think this struck a balance of like this is maybe, it's not something. self-pitying, but it opens up that door to that, if that makes sense.

I think it's so wonderful because it's like unrepentantly, like, I love my girlfriend, and I'm sad that I'm away from her, and there's, like, no real posturing or, you know. You're not trying to be funny. Yeah. I do think it must be difficult to write these songs when you're 21 years old, and then that's, like, who you are for the rest of your life, and that's what everyone wants from you. Yeah, I mean, we'll talk about their later discogs. I think they went through a kind of classic band transformation that we see often of just kind of becoming adults really, growing up because they grew up.

And then their fan base is still young or wants to feel young. Outer-reach, just a fun fact also is that in the middle of making the record, they got on the guest list to see Ben Folds 5. Cool, abortion song. And Sarah Michelle Geller was there. Jim Subject just pointed that out because he was like, oh, my God, we're in Hollywood. but Ben Folds did a song where the bass player instead of playing the bass, played the Moog as a bass, and so that's what inspired them to have Rob Pope play the Moog on out of reach instead of the bass. Wow.

Ben Folds 5. That's a great sliding door. There you go. Ten Minutes is a song that had actually already come out as a subpop singles. They had a seven-inch singles club thing, and that was on there. 10 minutes to downtown. Yeah. That's,

how many is too far? But I get it. Like not in Los Angeles, babe. Yeah. Nothing is it downtown Kansas City, you think? Who knows?

Who knows? Who knows? Who knows? Who knows? It's a fun song. It's fun. I like it. I think the drum,

the drum is good. That's my music criticism. Yeah, the drum is good. My apology is constantly in my head. Fascinating. You'll be accepting my apology for taking things to see. Seriously.

Right. Well, of course you're taking things too seriously. Like, this is the most serious thing you could do. It's just like, it's very, I feel for him. You'll be accepting my apology for taking things too serious. Yeah, I'm alone or dotty is probably my favorite. Sorry, just. Gone, yeah.

Apology's also great. Sing it, babe. Say it too fast. I can't even sing it because it's too high. Oh, sing the praises. You can do it. You can do it. Come tomorrow.

But, like, they really attack that. And I also just find any kind of, I'm very compelled with whenever a vocal kind of starts before. I know there's one of my favorite things in the world is when the song starts with the vocal first and then the music comes in. Yeah. I mean, you have to do it sparingly, obviously. You can't just have it all over the record. But when it works, it's so effective. It's so effective.

My apology has that too. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, it's very, that also is, I think, yeah, the one I come back to the most, and does get. stuck in my head. This one is an interesting one because Matt Pryor has said that he actually was one of his first attempts to write lyrics from someone else's perspective because this is not about him. He said, there are plenty of songs about other people, but this is the first one where I inhabit a different individual. It couldn't be any less meet. The song is about a one-night

stand that a friend had, thus the immortal line from Pee-Wey Herman becoming the title, even though it doesn't appear in the song. There was some controversy when the song came out. Some thought the subject matter was misogynistic, but that's misguided. Songs about two consenting adults who are having a fairly mature discussion about whether they want to make the previous evening into a broader relationship and ultimately decided they don't want to. That some people thought I was singing about myself was hilarious. I think in the book he says I was way too obsessed with Honeywhite to ever like have any one-night sandwich.

He was like, again, wife guy. But yeah, that's like one night doesn't mean the rest of my life. Sure. Right. Yeah. Also, in the morning, you know, it was a nice thing he's going to call after from a roadside telephone. Yeah. I didn't have cell phone.

Well, they did, but it was different. Did they? 2000 or 1999? Yeah, I guess. I guess. I remember in 99 I would have been borrowing my mom's cell phone on the weekend when I went out. Right. But I did not have my own.

Just for emergencies. Yeah, exactly. Like you go to a party, take my cell phone. Right. I had a pager. Long good night. Long good night. She's weeping again.

This is a tear-jurker of this album. But the thing is it's so fun and it also sounds like, like, Like it sounds like a pop song in a way that all pop songs are sad, you know, or like many of the best. But again, good night. It's a word that comes up so much in this record. Well, it makes so much sense when you have all this background, right? It's like you're constantly on the phone to a person you love and you're never in the same place because they live in a different city and you're always on tour. So regardless, it's constant phone calls.

Right. And so you're always saying good night and being far away and having distance. So, I mean, I can't fault him for writing about that over and over again. That's what he's experiencing. Yeah. But the nice thing is that I feel like you can read into that if you want, but you can also just, you know. Take it at face value.

Yeah. Or just reply it to your not long-distance relationship and just be like it's hard to, I want the old days. What does he say on this? But back to the good old times before I won. This whole album is like so well-paced, I think also. And it goes from like kind of like up-tempo to like. like, more like sad songs really well.

And then brings it right home with God tear. I'll catch you. Amazing. I also really like close to home, which also does the thing we were talking about of starting song, starting song. They really love to do that, starting the song with the vocal. They do it well. They do it well.

And I'll catch you. Matt Pryor said that he remembered James, like, walked into a door and almost passed out. and then went ahead and played the piano line to all catch you when he was fully concussed. Yeah, that makes sense. Jim Subdick, by the way, or not, James. Sorry, sorry. James Dewey, Jimmy Dewey.

Like, loves, like, Mozart. And, like, I know, like, is classically trained as a pianist. And, like, I don't think, I think that is worth mentioning, maybe. He is that he is just coming to this record with so much background that it's almost, like, I feel like it must be, like, child's play for him to be, like, adding this amazing. He's, like, I'm concussed. No problem. No problem.

I don't know why, but the, I don't know why, but the, A song that is constantly on loop in my head, a lot of these, but that I should stare at receivers to receive her isn't fair, is always looping in my mind. I just like, I know it's like kind of a simple wordplay, but I just love that wordplay. No, it's brilliant. That I should stare at receivers.

To receive her isn't fair. It's crazy. In his book, he talks about being on the phone with her. At one point, he's, like, expressing his fears about something feeling off in the relationship. And he's like, I feel like you're hiding something from me. And she's like, well, I am, but I can't tell you what it is. But it's not bad. She just have to trust me.

And he says, I tell her that I feel like this is one of those trust-building exercises and that I'm going to fall over backwards and she's going to drop me. And she said, don't worry, I'll catch you. And he said, you'll catch me. And she said, yeah, babe, I'll catch you. So I think that's all this song comes from. My arm hair stood up. Anyways, got to your album.

Just really incredible. Can't, you know, I can't recreate what it felt like to hear it for the first time, but it was like, it's really magical. It was really like... Even with Josh there. Well, I didn't hear that. I don't think I heard the entire album during that time. But, you know, when I was alone and spending time with the album, I was just like, man, what a...

You know what? I didn't really get into Jimmy World until Bleed American, so I actually heard Get Up Kids first. Crazy. Yeah. So, to me, it was pretty, like, it felt familiar as a fat records and, what? warp tour girlie because like I said the vocal texture and tone is reminiscent of a lot of you know even fat mic a little bit you know and I love fat mic so not to be surge but like but then this whole other thing was happening and all this like kind of emotionality and this like

it was just like really I don't know really great to hear at the tender age of 18 years old yeah I guess we should say that there was like pop punk happening in the 90s I mean that was a huge blink one age yeah so again like that's so again like That was my first favorite band. So I was also, you know, able to sort of piece that together. Again, I'm a warped ritual. And so this kind of, I think for people who found, I mean, love Link 182, also one of my first favorite bands. But I feel like maybe in terms of the next wave, it's like, this is more serious than that.

You know what I mean? Yeah. But it's... It reminded me a little more of my, what was my favorite Blink 1282 album, which was the first one. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because that's the first one I found, because that's when that was when I found them. And it is, obviously, there are more jokesters, but it has that of a similar, I think,

um, love-lorn songs that are on there that play with the pop-punk sensibility. I mean, it's not quite what Get Up Kids is doing here, but there was sort of a comp that my brain was able to make. I think the album does really well in an indie sense, right? Yeah. Is that what you sort of piece together? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, you should talk to Egan, a vagrant, and make sure I'm not lying, but I was reading, like, an excerpt from our noise, which is that book about Merge Records.

Because they talk about, like, touring with Superchunk and how weird it was that they were headlining and Superchunk was opening. And it's like a band that, which must be so crazy when you're like, I'm opening for my childhood hero. Yeah. So that, and on that, I don't know why they even include this, but yeah, just the success of something to write home about, which I think sold 150, I think, is a number. 150,000, to be clear, not just 150, which doesn't feel like that much to me, but I don't know. It is a lot. But the success of that is in part why Interscope took a minority stake in vagrant after in 2001. Yeah.

Which that spoke to me about like the level of interest and also success that has brought for a really, an even smaller label. Yeah. I mean, I would think at that time people were like trawling for the next Blinkpoint 82 because Blink22 is sort of crossing over by the end by 2000. Right. You know, I don't know if it was because they were on an indie or what happened, but they don't have a radio song, you know. And Jimmy World gets on the radio the next year, but again, they're on a major. So it makes sense, a little more sense why they were able to do that. And obviously those songs were much more radio-friendly.

Right. Like the middle and sweetness are incredibly radio-friendly. Yeah. in a way that maybe as much as we love, something right at home about isn't just immediately. It's more complicated, maybe. Sweetness also, and one of the best songs to ever do the vocal thing of starting.

If you're listening. Really hard for karaoke for that reason. You have to really commit and trust yourself to do sweetness on karaoke. To when you come in. Yeah. Yeah. So that was beautiful. Thank you so much.

But yeah, I think... I'm a singer. Like, it's, yeah, it's pretty wordy. It's pretty specific. away. I also think it's the vocal tone. Like, again, I don't think that's become mainstream yet. Like, you get into the 2000s, you get into the third wave emo bands, and that is what you're signing up to get. But it's not yet, and you're not really hearing that on the radio. And you think people thought it was a little, like, nerdy? Yeah, I just think it wasn't,

maybe it wasn't, I don't want to speak for, like, the radio program or at K Rock, but I could imagine that coming across their desk and that, I mean, like, I don't know about this. Like, this is too, to like subculture. It's not, it's not, you know, we're still coming out of the era of

big alternative music, like smashing pumpkins and like, and then also, obviously Green Day is very huge, and offspring are very huge in the mid-90s, but they also have a much

cleaner and bigger sound, you know? Yeah, yeah, the hooks are hooks. And I think like the thing, there are hooks, obviously like, say goodnightly,

mean goodbye. Yeah. No, you think my life will stop when you're away. The only song I could think of as Mass Pike. I really thought,

I think MassPike could have been a radio hit. Yeah. No, that's true because of that reason. It is catchy pop punk in the way that, like, would have sort of fit in with the green days of the world. Yeah. So I'm a mass bike truther. I love your commitment to it. We didn't even talk about action and action.

But I think it's also a song that it starts huge, it goes small. Like, it doesn't necessarily be quiet loud, but it has different modes that might be harder to sell and be like, this is a consistent thing we're doing on the radio. Right. I have no idea. I don't know. I don't know. C-100 was playing. That's my...

Like you said, they did okay. They hit 31 on the Billboard Heat Seekers, so it's charting. It got okay reviews. Pitchfork did give it a two. Pitchfork did not like it. Brent, Dekresenzo. He said, is it so much to ask for a shred of originality and music? That's what he said.

He didn't like it. He didn't like it. It's one of my favorite things when the review that lives on pitchfork now is by you, 25 years later in which it gets a 7.6. And they think that I don't know this stuff, but the wayback machine, it is a dangerous thing for a woman like me to have. But she has it.

But I have it. And I will unearth the two review. It is still up there, I think. But there is something in here that speaks to maybe what we were talking about, how it's being received, which is, he says, these flaws would be easier. He's talking about lyrical stuff. He's like these laws would be easier to swallow if deliver with solar conviction.

Instead, we're left with the nasal whining of another pompadjured youth who recently received his degree from the brady school of Caucasian nostril singing, along with his classmates, the guy from lit, the guy from smash mouth, the guy from Blink 122, and the guy from showoff. I don't even know what show off is. Well, Blinkwintery 2 did fine, but I, like, maybe that was where they were getting placed into a category of, oh, where a new thing is. happening. It's kind of emo. Oh, well, lit, I mean, lit and smashmouth were on the radio, so I don't know. Also, smash mouth? I don't see any similarities. Zero.

What are you talking about? Zero. That guy doesn't, I don't think he has a nasally voice. Zero. Also, the guy from lit doesn't really have a nasally voice either. Yeah. Lit. Can you forget about the things I said when I was drunk?

Whenever I downloaded that song, my own worst enemy from, like, LimeWire. To call you that. Yeah. It was classified as a Blinquity two song. Classic thing that could happen if you're downloading stuff from LimeWire. in 2005 is that things would just be like wrong. As well as you giving yourself an irreversible virus to your computer. Yeah, well, that's fine.

But I needed to know that lit song, that song took me too. It was embarrassing. It got otherwise good reviews. Like, Eddemy gave it a seven. The reviews that it got outside of pitchwork were pretty positive. And then they toured for three years nonstop to promote this record. Europe, Japan, Australia, they toured with Green Day. They toured at the anniversary.

They toured with Hodrodt Surrogate. Hot Rod Sergat? I don't know that man. They're so good. Really? They're the best, yeah. Weezer, importantly. Whoa.

And Jebediah. So they pounded the pavement. They were out here in these streets. It must have been so exhausting. I can't imagine, because they had been on tour already, like, for, you know. You're 21, baby. You're right. It probably is really fun.

Go out there. I like a lot of the articles I read from this time were, like, including even that Merge Records book, were just like, they had a bus. Like, that was how people knew they were, like, big time. I feel like they were kind of projecting this energy of being a big band because they had a tour bus. Yeah, I think I read something about that. It's like they either got a good deal on it, but also, yeah, it was like some sort of like weird, like very good deal they got in. And also a lot, they were touring so much that it was like people were getting into pretty bad car accidents on these kinds of tour circuits with overnight drives and stuff.

And so they were trying to just like be safe as well. And I think Vagrant was able to help them out with it. Maybe thanks to the 10% stake from Interscope, I don't know. It doesn't truly matter. I think they deserve a tour of us. I'm just funny that all the articles are like sellouts. Sellouts. And yeah, even then there's that article that, yeah, the CMJ 2000 articles, they're like talking to Ryan.

And he's like, personal always like, I'm 20 and I'm old. And then they're like, what do you think about emo core, was what they were calling it. Like, emo core, the one on everyone's lips. and Ryan's like getting labeled emo we're over it call us when you want to call us already a discourse like before the you know what I mean

Nobody wanted to be called emo no and nobody He does now I mean the people do now I guess Yeah I think now people are pretty Because I mean so much more things They're expansive Back then I think it felt like a slur

Yeah I'm sure And you know they're already over it Like you know Two albums in or whatever Which I really like And before it even They knew what it would become You know

And what they would roll I mean I think I read something. I can't, I don't, I won't write the quote down, but it was something to the effect of like, yeah, like, we knew those other bands and we played with them, but it's not like we were like, oh, we're like Andy Warhol's factory. We must like capture the magic of the scene. Like it wasn't that, you know? Yeah. Well, the next year, in 2000, not the next year, two years later, they put out arguably one of their best releases in my humble opinion, which is Eudora, the B-Sides compilation. Because this has, like, a bunch of their covers, which you mentioned it earlier, but their cover of Alec Eiffel by The Pixies is really so good. It's so good. And it's, again, I'm not a musician, but it sounds like it would be a very difficult song to choose the cover just in terms of how fast. And also his, again, voice is higher and faster than Black Francis. Black Francis, Frank.

Yeah. There's also a cover of Suffragette City. Yeah, that one I don't like quite as much, but I like the cover of Close to Me by The Cure. I like it a lot, too. It makes perfect sense for them with the synth, you know? Yeah, it's really nice. And also regret, the new order to cover. Anyway, it's a great, also they're choosing really good songs.

Really good songs, yeah. And it's just, this is a great, it's a great. Their B-sides are great. So like 10 minutes is on here, Ann Arbor is on here. I'm alone or doughty, Shorty, the breathing method from the first seven-year. Newfound interest in Massachusetts. You found interest in Massachusetts. It's great.

Also somewhere in here, Matt Pryor, I think it was in 2000, he really, his first album with the New Amsterdam's, which is like a side project that he wanted to do. Yeah, what do you think about the New Amsterdam's? I like it. I like folk music, folk-y type music. I wouldn't call it folk music per se, but it's definitely folkier. Yeah. You know. I quite like it, but it does kind of start to, I feel like show you like, oh, maybe there's like inside me there are two wolves situation is happening, you know? The accordion. Right. Is a distinct sound. It has a specific sound.

Yeah. I don't mind it. So in 2002, also, he puts out another new Amsterdam's album called Parato Tota Vida. That same year, the hotly anticipated third get-up kids album comes out. It's called On a Wire. It was produced by Scott Litt. They had, I guess, wanted some, they had put this list of producers together. They wanted Stephen Street, who famously worked with the Smiths, John Lecky, who, I mean, what a legend had done maybe most recently probably Radiohead, but also, you know, the Stone Roses and just an amazing producer.

Nigel Godridge also had worked with Radiohead, Gil Norton with Pixies. None of these ones panned out, but they did end up going with Scott Litt, who had basically produced a lot of R.E.M. albums and also kind of famously and, like, in some ways, contentiously been tapped. I think he did the mixing on in-udra for Nirvana, but he'd also been tapped to re-produce the two singles and make them, like, more radio-friendly. So Al-Bini taking Albini's production and, like, sort of polishing it up. Rob Pope said, I remember we were like,

we want to make the biggest record ever. And in our heads at that point, we wanted to be on the radio. Scottlett had a pretty good success rate with that. This album is their promise rings Woodwater. who I think was a similar trajectory, right? Everyone loved promised rings, nothing feels good, and then they sort of...

Woodwater comes out and they... Took a departure in sound. Although I think now people have reassessed Woodwater. It's still not one I returned to as much, but I'll be honest here. I'm nothing, if not a completely honest person. I never listened to the get-up kids after something to write home about

until I was doing this podcast. Yeah. Things just changed. interest changed. They changed, but it wasn't, I just like, by this point, I'd like, I'm leaving college, I'm very interested in the Smiths and dipset and partying, and I'm not really checking for new music, arguably for 10 more years. Perfect combo. So I can't speak to what it was like to experience this album in real time as a get-up kids fan, but I think I can kind of have a sense of it given how it went. How it went. Yeah. And also just like using my

my two brain cells, which is that something to write at home about was really beloved, really celebrated, and this album sounds just completely different. And I think if that's what the fans, it sounds completely different that pretty much everything that came before it.

So I can see kind of diehard fans being like, oh, I don't know what to do with this. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I just feel bad for the fan, because I'm like, well, they're probably going to shows and getting so bummed out by all these bands. Because that's what you're talking about is like you want to feel young or like capture that youthful energy.

And certainly on a wire is the, I would say the direct opposite. And it's like not an album you can like escape your misery through. It's more of a like let's take it slow and actually be really miserable. Yeah. What I found really interesting is that like, which makes so much sense is like these are kids, still kind of kids. but that had like grown up in Indian punk and like had never really actually had the chance to discover classic bands that sort of like maybe other young people would have already gone through their phase with like literally like the Beatles and Led Zeppelin and that is informing a lot of like what they do with this album. So Matt said, we knew that we needed to do something different. We knew that we were starting to get very formulaic with stuff.

We were touring on something to write home about for two and a half years, and we were sick of it. We were all listening to different music. I got into Steve Earle, Wilco, and a lot of troubadour like alternative country and singer-songwriter stuff. So on a wire, it probably felt a little folkier than it necessarily needed to be. To be completely honest, we just assumed that everyone was on the same page as us. We thought, yeah, this is different, but it's good. So when we got a negative reaction, we didn't see where it was coming from. Yeah.

And they really created a scene around them at that point that sounded like their first, you know. They had wrought all these other bands, and Vagrant had signed a lot of the dashboard confessional. Yeah. Saves the day. Saves the day. It's very funny because Matt Pryor and I respect it so much. At every stage has kind of had the same thing about this album, which is that at the time, like, kind of right away, we really didn't give two shits if anyone liked the record. or not, we were really confident that we were going to kill this emo stigma that we had and take the people with open minds with us and leave everyone else in the dust. And later, he was like,

I love that record. And so ultimately, I don't give two fucks if anyone else likes it. People snapped a lot of judgments about that record. And then even later, 2011, he's like, it's certainly not a perfect record. There's some filler on there that would not be there if I had looked at it with a clear head. I think the songs that are on that record are good and some of the best songs I've ever written and we've ever recorded. So he's like, I love this record and fuck you guys. And in 2024, he talked to The Ringer and was talking about this. Oh, I know them. Yeah, he just said some of the songs on On a Wire are some of the best songs I've ever written. But he thought the heavier rock aspect got neutered in the production of it.

Well, okay, that's a great. I'm glad you said that because they had, they really, they did not mesh well with Scotland. So that was kind of a contentious working relationship. They just didn't see eye to eye about how they wanted the album to sound like. And I think it caused a lot of problems and probably negatively affected the sound of the album in terms of what I presume they might have wanted it to sound like. I don't know what that is, but what we got was the result of sort of like not being on the same page with the producer. Yeah, that makes sense to me. And it's a very downer, not even downer in the same way of, like, emo downer, but the, like, lyrically, it's very existential. It's very, like, there's a, that song, I was, like, listening through it.

And I was, like, all that I know. And I don't want to just make fun of somebody's lyrics. But there's, like, I want to say making fun. It just, there are a lot of, like, zen cones in there where it's, like, all we are is part of everything. All you need to know is anything that's happening is happening, where it's a bit like, I can picture like Edward Sharpie. Like, you know, it's a bit more. Little totality. Yeah, for sure, a little circular.

Well, you know, look, I think there's a couple good songs on here. Like, I actually really like walking on a wire. Yes, I was going to say. And Campire, Kansas, I quite like too. But, again, I like acoustic-foki stuff. But I, by and large, for me, this is not a... I'm not a new grunge pig. No.

No. And I understand perhaps why the fan base was like... we're all set on that. We're good. Not because it's not good, but again, because, like, you're going to the 7-Eleven to get a slurpy, and they're like, well, sorry, what we have now is wheatgrass shot, you know? Like, it's just like, both are good, but that's not what you want. You want a slurpy, you know?

Exactly. That's a good way of putting it. I don't know if that's a correct metaphor, but you got what I'm saying. It's more adult. It's more adult. Yeah, and they're, you know, they found Led Zeppelin, and they decided, to go here. I'm sure it was probably pretty depressing. And it's, again, it's like a lot of sliding doors

on the trajectory of this band because, like, what if they did make another? What if they had made Gilt Show? Exactly, as their next one. As their next one. It would have been totally different, I think, about this all the time. Because Gilt Show's really good. Gilchow's bangers.

It's more in line with what they were doing, but also is a growth and maturity. It's not something to write home about part two. Yeah. But also by this time it's 2004, and I think the momentum around them has been sort of severely impeded by the reaction to Onowire, which, by the way, got really good critical reviews. On the Wire. On a wire did? Yeah.

Interesting. Yeah. I mean, it is more critically, like, catnip kind of, like has a lot of extra. It was like a real sharp difference between the critical reception and the people's reception. But so, okay, well, let's talk about a guilt show. So that's 2007 4. It's a couple years later. They decided to just go back to Ed Rose, so they had sort of made their prior, you know, 4-minute mile. And he also was recorded with Reggie.

He's kind of the, they're a guy. He's like their guy. They're like secret other member, basically. Oh, this was really funny. Apparently they, so they were, it was less collaborative. Like, Matt Pryor really, like, wrote and demoed most of the songs, and then they fleshed it out. he said the point of every record you make is to try to make all the other ones obsolete and that's the goal with this one.

I would say by far it's the best record we've ever done. I think that's really interesting. I don't know if that's every musician's goal, but I think it was their goal. And that does sort of contextualize what you hear, especially with On a Wire. Yes. Like they were trying to get so far away from something to write home about. Vaporized their past, yeah. And they kind of did.

And it's also, Guild Show is like they're adults. So there's like adults. Sorry, I keep saying that. No, that's true. I mean, they're now and they're like early to mid-20s. Some of the members are married already, I think. And maybe about to not be married anymore. And about to be not married.

And that's why maybe there's some deeper. That's right. That's the divorce record to me. Matt, right, because Rob Pope is in the process of divorcing Adrian Verhoeven, right, from the main anniversary. Or maybe has just divorced him. Yes, of going through. I think James maybe also going through a divorce, I believe. Okay.

Jim on his honeymoon and Matt happily married. I thought this was really funny. Matt, so they also did this in a studio that they had purchased and renamed Black Lodge. They actually sold their imprint back to Vagrant to buy it. Matt said in 2011, I think this is a good, solid record. We weren't getting along very well at the time. Rob Ryan and I wrote a lot of it. Some of it while Jim was on his honeymoon.

James was M.A. because he was doing Reggie and a lot of Coke. Okay. We would have practice scheduled for noon, and we wouldn't see James for three days. Then he'd come in the studio, song was totally written, he wasn't involved at all, and then just slay it on the keys and say, later, I'm going to go smoke. He was like slash or something. I love that. That was really funny. I like how all these piano parts that we've talked about are kind of seemingly added in states of, like, altered states.

Right. James was going through a door. He was having a rough time of it, so he was just doing it. He was doing him. Yeah. That's why the next dredging the full effect album was called songs to not to get married to. Yes. Yeah.

But yeah, to your point, this is kind of the divorce album. And it was very intentional because Matt Pryor said, my personal life is great, and it was great at the time of the record. I don't think that would translate into a good song. So he sort of like, sounds like mostly wrote from the perspective of Rob and his divorce. Yeah, it's a good divorce record. Like, it's a good divorce rock record. Another really good divorce rock record, cursive domestica, if you ever go through a divorce. You can listen to that.

I like the Beck one. Nice. Yeah. Because it's hard to make that sound like not vengeful, but I feel like there's a lot of genuinely real feelings being expressed in this album, you know, of going through that. And also it's funny to think that this was also somewhat media fodder as well, the idea of like the anniversary and the get-up kids kind of... I'm like, what alternative press? Like what media? Yeah, like I guess like there's probably some foreign, like live journal.

Sure. Oh, no, they didn't probably was talking about this. Totally, totally. Well, also that I thought I was like, oh, maybe that's why part of the reason they sold their. imprint too because like the anniversary's on the imprint that's got to be confusing. I think it kind of ended up, I don't know, I'm not there, but the anniversary never really came back, I think, from this event because it was to me. I think they also kind of broke up really after, but yeah, I think it had a big impact on both fans, you can say. Interesting.

Yeah. This album was very critically, well, not very, but like decently reviewed. I think it's better than On a Wire personally, or like, or at least I'm getting more of what I want out of it. From jump, it starts out more, like, more energetic and upbeat. Hot Rod Circuit guy, Jason Russell, actually does vocals on the first song. Yes. Man of Conviction. I love the one you want. I think it's such a great song. Yes, it's one of also highlighted. Yeah. And it's as catchy, I would say, also, as, I don't know, there are other something to write home about. I don't know. It feels like we are getting more

to songs that you could actually sing and dance along, too. Yeah. But my favorite on this is sick in her skin. I love that song. Interesting. Yeah, I just feel like it's like a really vibey song that sort of like explodes into something like really powerful. I really love it. It's kind of like they really succeeded there for me and if what they were trying to do is make something really different from what they did before, but still have it be accessible and emotionally evocative because I didn't really feel that way about the songs on a wire. And again, maybe it's just, I haven't spent enough time because, again, this was all sort of recent for me. Anyways, that's a guilt show.

I think it's a good return-esque to form or to a form that was more similar to their form before. They go on a big tour for this to open for Dashboard Confessional. Yes. On the Honda Civic Tour, again, already kind of eclipsed. With thrice as well. Okay, so sorry to thrice, also with thrice. I just think it's interesting, and I think you can speak to it more probably, but, like, this is, like, the time where they're really being eclipsed and overshadowed by the bands that they inspired.

What's coming up from behind, yeah. Yeah, which in a lot of them that they inspired, like, the Fallout Boys of the world. I don't know if they inspired dashboard or not, but, like, you know, that's their label mate that came after them for sure. Yeah. I think we were also getting, like, it's funny because the pettiness of the label stuff, like, that's how I define third wave emo when I think about it. Like, I think lyrically, it's a lot about score settling and scene settling and being the idea of fame itself. Right. Naval gazing, yeah, totally.

Yeah. Like, so I think that set the tone for this almost a bit more, not like, yeah, Petty's the wrong word, but those kind of lyrical concerns, I think, really bled into that next generation. And that's why people is often derided. Right. But, yeah, that is probably really eerie to watch these people rise. Yeah, I can't imagine it's good for morale. especially if you're already having a lot of inner band turmoil. Around this time, Rob Pope said in an alternative press interview,

if Emo Rock is remembered for all these brand-new upstart bands that get signed to drive-through records, then yeah, that would bump us out a little since we have been pigeonholed into that whole thing. Yeah, they're having a bad time. The vibes are bad. The live shows are deteriorating. Rob Pope and Jim Subtick both threatened to quit multiple times on this tour. after that tour they go on their own world tour and finally at some point in Australia

Matt Pryor has like a full breakdown he's stressed he has children two babies yeah two babies a two year old and I think like or about to be born I think maybe one is about to be born yeah she's back home and he's just like I don't want to be here like I want to be home with my family

I don't want to do this so he I think from what I understood he sort of was like oh I want to pull back on touring and the rest of the band was like either we should do it or not do it And they were like, okay, well, this will be our last tour. Yeah. They wait up.

They announced on the website in 2005, we're broken up. All the little kids go crazy. Yes. And, you know, I think that it was like around the same time also that these other bands, like the anniversary, were breaking up. And I think people just kind of laid onto it a bit more of that narrative. But yeah, it did feel, they did tour, I guess, not that long after, which is funny. Like, they did some briefs. They did a farewell tour.

Yeah. Yeah, in July of 2005. But yeah, no. It felt like the end cap. And that makes sense in terms of like the arc of their original lineup, in terms of ending with Gilt Show. It feels like they did what they had. Like they came home, you know?

Yeah. And then again, like they've been, everything supplanted them, right? Like, Fallout Boy, Panic at the Disco, Paramour has come out. Field by Ramen is blowing up. Yeah. And then we also had like My Chem. the U's, Death Cab, Taking Back Sunday. Like, there's a whole swell of massive emo bands, like getting radio hits.

Exactly. Insane to think that, like, sugar were going down. And also, God, what can't think of Panic of the Disco songs anymore? But I so know. Why are you people heard of? That one? You got it. I write since not tragedies.

Is that what it's called? Yes. Closing the goddamn door. That one I know against my will, to be honest. Yeah. Because we've played so much on the radio. But yeah, it must have been a very weird time to be in that band and, like, also feel like you can't really, like you can't be more mature because the market is not letting you. The market doesn't want that.

So, yeah, they call it quits. More New Amsterdam's albums come out. Rob Pope joined Spoon. Maybe 10 years ago, I was backstage at some random festival in like Pomona or something with my friends of Black Lips. And I was quite drunk. and I somehow, I think I'm smoking a cigarette with, like, striking him a conversation with this guy in a suit backstage. And somehow emo comes up, no idea how, again, I was quite drunk. And I think I said something to the effect of, like, yeah, but you don't fuck with get-up kids.

I love get-up kids. And he goes, that was my band. I started that band, because it was Rob Pope, because Spoon was playing. But I had no idea because I don't know what Rob Pope looks like. And then I screamed, and he was like, oh, my God. And I was like, oh, my God. And then we hugged. I love that.

It was a really beautiful moment for me. I'm sure he also thought it was a beautiful moment. I hope so. I think he was quite drunk, too. But I don't remember his merch's name. You know, when you're quite drunk, you remember everyone else being quite drunk. Yes. But yeah, that was a fun moment for me.

Then in 2009, they did a 10-year anniversary tour. They got back together to tour something to write home about. And I guess they had so much fun. They were like, actually... We're going to self-fund a record. We're going to make another record, yeah. We're going to get back into it. 2011's there are rules.

It's fun. Yeah. It's fun. I think they wanted more, especially when you're putting your own money, because I don't think vaguer, I think that is, did they self-release that? Yeah, it's on their Quality Hill album. Label. Label, yeah.

Yeah, good name. But yeah, I feel like it sounds good for what that budget is. And also for guys who hadn't played together in a while writing music for the first time. And it sounds exciting. Like it sounds like they're excited to be back in the band is what I think when I listen to that record Because you know even like Dewey's Was he in the band at that point or did he?

It's a look But he had recorded other stuff with like Reggie In the meantime that like hadn't involved the band So I'm sure They were just You can hear I think The excitement to be recording again But I don't think it did very well

It didn't really pick up 2011 we're talking Now we're talking actual Edward Sharp probably Or like It's just a different many Edward Sharp Are Sharps being brought up on this year. Sorry for the choice. I don't know.

I'll tell you what. I really like that song, Shatter Your Lungs. Is it an extremely 2011-ass song? Yes. Yeah. But I actually kind of really like this album. Yeah. It's very not get-up kidsy if you've only heard something to write home about.

But it's good. It's very 2011. And there's a lot of use of like, it sounds more electronic. It's good. I like, yeah, automatic, if you're down for that, automatic can be fun. And it's also his, it's cool to see Matt Pryor's writing evolve over these records. And I think he gets much more experimental in the stories he's telling. And, you know, is writing kind of poetry, if you will, about, like, modern society when you read the lyrics of automatic or whatever.

Like, the kids alone just watching static. Yeah. It's very evocative. I think it's good. I genuinely think it's good. I really enjoyed listening to it. And I was like, I think it's cool that they like kind of tapped back in. And again, like, they're not going to try to make what they made 10 years ago or 12 years ago.

So, like, they do make something that's more of its time, which I think is cool. And I liked it. And then they go back on hiatus because it didn't do well. It's tough. It's tough, yeah. They do various other months. Pursuits, you know, I think musical and non-musical, I believe I read Matt Pryor, became a farmhand. He also became a huge foodie over the years, and he's very into cooking and food.

I'd watch his cooking show. Yeah, he knows a lot about it. I interviewed him for the now defunct 24-question party people that was on this feed, and he was really great. Really smart guy. Jim Subdick worked at a nonprofit for amputees. For amputees, correct. Called Steps for Faith, which is, anyway. That's nice.

Yeah, they were doing, you know, they were doing their business. a thing. James Dewey was in My Chemical Romance. Oh yes, of course. I played keys. Yeah.

So he was doing probably quite well. He was like pretty good, I think, like post band kind of filling in for keyboard on various. Yeah.

Him and Rob Pope, I think, kind of did the best music way afterwards. And the new Amster James was still going. Totally. But it was like full time.

Yeah. And in 2017, so then Get Up Kids played when we were young. So now they're sort of a revival, you know, nostalgia band. Did you go to this?

I did not. Vegas scares me. I have to be honest. Understandable. I'm really intimidated by Vegas. And I wish, and also I was feeling at this time a bit personally distanced from the scene and felt a bit like it was a bit cosplay. It's how kind of I feel still about these massive festivals, but I'm very happy that these bands are getting opportunities to play. I would have really loved to go to the last one because of Jimmy World's set list was really fucking out of this world.

But Morrissey performed at this one. Yeah. That's crazy. So strange. I just brought it up because it's crazy, and they had no meat, because Morrissey will not allow meat anywhere he performs. So the entire festival was not allowed to sell any meat. The band was at the bar before they were playing, and they were like,

should we do it again? Let's run this back. Should we run this back? Should we get-up kids again? So they do, and they signed to polyvinyl, and they put out an EP in 2018 called, kicker and an album in 2019 called Problems. Right around then, Matt Pryor said that he divides the Get Up Kids.

It was kind of a weird year to put out their first album in a while because it was also the 20-year anniversary of something right now about. I'm like, what are you promoting? So they're kind of doing both. Yeah. But he said, I divided the Get Up Kids fan base into people who only like the first two albums, drag my ass to hell, and a smaller contingent of ones who've stuck with them the whole time, and Problems isn't a return to form that will immediately placate the former group,

which is true. But Problems is good. Yeah. The Problem is me, which is a funny song to have on an album called Problems, is really, really catchy. And it just sounds like people who are like experts at writing hooks at this point, which they kind of are, you know. Do you think Taylor Swift heard that and it inspired her? Because you know Taylor Swift, a known Jimmy World fan? I didn't know that actually.

Where did she encounter it? Like from youth? Yeah, from youth, she put a Jimmy World song on one of her like playlists of like love songs and thing. Like she's talked about how she likes them, which makes a lot of sense. Actually, we talk about it in the Jimmy World episode. Sure. It's similar like confessional songwriting stuff.

Yes. But yeah, I mean, like if you fuck with Jimmy World, there's, it's not a leap to think that you would like maybe check out the new get-up kids. I'm just saying the problem is me. I'm the problem with me. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. The anti-hero song. I feel also, yeah. Just a couple years later, so. Yeah, that's true. I don't you credit them, though. That's what Get Up Kids have gotten up to. Again, Peter Katz's produces.

I think it's, I don't want to say surprisingly good because that's rude, but that's not what I, but, you know, for later era music from a band that has gone through a lot of shifts in sound. Yeah. For better or for worse. I think where they've landed here is, like, quite satisfied. I agree. Yeah, I think, well, I think what maybe you're just your gesture. to is that a lot of bands that are around this long feel like they need to read as they said like I forget how we put it but make the other albums obsolete and continuously kind of reinvent the wheel every time in a way that's a bit exhausting sometimes as a fan because you like a band because you like what they are doing on the current um record and obviously there's massive exceptions to that but i think it's nice that they make new songs that they know their fans are gonna like or i don't know if that's why they're doing it but they i maybe you saw i you know this is the way the last thing i'll say in fanfic mode it's like i assume the need to distance from your popular past self is extremely intense when you're young

and quite close to it. And then the older and further away you get, you sort of assimilate all of the versions of yourself, right? You kind of put your arms around all of the parts that you were and they all become one thing and you're more able to tap into all of it at once without feeling any sort of way about them. That's just what I hope happens as we age. That would be really nice.

Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I think it's just as, it's interesting. Like, I can't, you know, like, as we were talking with James Dewey's amazing new record, 41, and by new, I mean, almost a decade old. Right. Yeah, I think there's a lot of reckoning with age on this record, but also a lot that can be still applied to, like, a 14-year-old who's listening to it at home or something like this, which I think they're really good at. Totally. Yeah.

And that, my friends, concludes, for now, I don't know what they're up to right now. Maybe they're working on another album. The Story of the Good Up Kids. Yeah. They toured in 2024, I think, in support. It was great. I'm also extremely sad that I missed the something to write at home about touring because... It was really good, I have to be honest.

Well, Ariel, happy for you, it should have been me. You guys, thank you so much for listening. Ariel, thank you so much for being a wonderful guest. Come back next week for a new episode of Bansplaine. If you liked what you heard today, subscribe for more episodes of Bansplaine. Our guest today was Ariel Gordon. This episode was produced by Rob Sunderman and edited by Adrian Bridges with help from Justin Sales. Video production by Bell Roman.

Executive producers for Bansplaine are Gina Delvec and me, Yossi Sallick. Our gorgeous and catchy theme song was composed and performed by Bethany Costantino and Jennifer Clavin and graciously recorded by Carlos de la Garza in Los Angeles, California. Special thanks to our producer emeritus, producer Dylan, aka Dylan Tupper Rupert, and also Sean Fennessey and those Archer beef jerkeys, the long sticks. Come back every Thursday for a new episode of Bandsblane on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. I did not know that about Taylor Swift and Jimmy Eat World. Yeah.

I'm changing everything, I think.