Bandsplain - The Music of Skateboard Videos with Jerry Hsu

Episode Date: January 29, 2026

Yasi is joined by skater, photographer, and Sci-Fi Fantasy proprietor Jerry Hsu to break down how music has shaped skate videos, from their DIY, skit-filled ’80s roots to today’s high-budget, cinematic productions.They dig into Jerry’s iconic part in Enjoi’s 'Bag of Suck' video, make the case for Dinosaur Jr. as a timeless skate soundtrack, and reflect on skate videos’ long-standing role in music discovery.Host: Yasi Salek @yasisalekGuest: Jerry Hsu @internetfamousProducer: Rob SundermannEditor: Adrian BridgesAdditional Production Supervision: Justin SaylesTheme Song: Bethany Cosentino Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi guys, it's Yossi. Just wanted to pop on here real quick for the episode to tell you in case you haven't heard yet that Fansplain is doing a live show in Boston. We are joining the incredible Something in the Way Festival. Chris Ryan and I will be joined by Patrick Flynn of the Godtier Band Fiddlehead at the Sinclair in Cambridge on Friday, January 30th at 8 p.m. tickets are on sale right now. And there's a little bit more, Bibb. There's a little more because we're also doing a late-night movie screening of one of our favorite movies of all time. Repo Man, CR and I will be doing a gorgeous little intro of that film at the Coolidge Corner Theater on Saturday, January 31st. All the information and where to buy tickets, you can find that at the ringer.com slash events.

So please, if you're in the Boston general area, come out and join us. It's going to be really fun. Friday, January 30th for Bandsplan Live. at the Sinclair and Cambridge and Saturday, January 31st, for the screening of Repo Man at the Coolidge Corner Theater. And the tickets again are at the ringer.com slash events. Hope to see you there.

What's with this band anyway? I don't get it. Can you please explain? Wait, like Bansplain? Hello and welcome to Bansplane. I am your host, Yossi Sallick. This is usually a show where I invite an expert guest on to help me explain a cult band or iconic artist.

Today's episode is a little different. Today's episode, you guys, it's about the music of skateboarding videos. Hello, fellow kids. My guest today is Stormflip Pioneer, Dark Slide Prodigy, and sci-fi fantasy CEO, Gerald Sue. Is your full name Gerald?

Have we ever talked about this? I don't think we've ever talked about it, but it's just Jerry. It's just Jerry. Maybe we have. Maybe we have. Just Jerry. It's total like just immigrant kind of like, oh, we'll just pick a name.

Did we figure out, did your parent, were they had early exposure to Tom and Jerry? Like, where did this name come into their consciousness? I have no idea. I feel like I asked them one time, and the story was so boring that it didn't even register. Like, I think they just kind of randomly chose like an American name or whatever. It's funny, and I say this with all the love in my heart for you. It is kind of a cartoonish name, and not just because of time. So it is very funny that your parents were like, here's a serious American name we're going to give our son.

Yeah, it's kind of on brand, actually, but like, yeah, like it is kind of a... Well, it's not that it's on brand. It's nominative determinism. It determined your personality. Yeah, that might also be true. Because your brother has a more normal name, doesn't he? My brother's name is Jason. Yeah, and he turned out quite normal. Yes. Oh, Jason, Jason's kind of like an 80s hot guy name. That's true. But he definitely, like the determinism, yeah, he's like totally he's Jason and I'm Jerry.

You're Jerry. I mean people try to tell me like, oh, Jerry, no, it totally fits. It's great. And I'm just like, that doesn't make me feel better. Yeah. Jerry is a very strange name. That's a great name. Like, what are unique?

You could, like people could say, at least in this world, Jerry. And no last name needed. You're like Madonna. I mean, there's a couple other juries. Who? Are you just talking, like in my world? Yeah. Oh, then yes.

In the world, there are a couple other Jerry Lewis. Oh, okay. But yeah, then I'm the one. Jerry, thank you so much for coming on today to talk about the music of skateboarding films. My pleasure. I'm so happy to be here. We talk about them a lot on the show because, well, for obvious reasons, because I think that, especially in the early to mid-90s, but you know what?

I did a little recon with some younger friends. And I think it was sort of an enduring thing that it was just a really big way for people to discover music they had never heard of, whether or not it was new or old. Like, it was just like, not only is it like you wouldn't have heard this song before, but it comes wrapped in this like cool package where it's like co-signed by something. You're like, oh. Yeah. You know? Totally. Yeah.

So I thought it was really interesting. And you, when we first chat about this, you really blew my mind with how much you knew about it, which I guess, I mean, I guess it is your bread of butter. Yeah, but I would also say, like, I am not really an expert on this stuff compared to, like, the diehards out there. Yeah, well, I didn't ask John Minor to come on or whatever, but, like, you know, shout out John Minor. But I asked you because you're my friend and I knew you would do it. Okay. And also because you're a smart, erudite, well-spoken, and graceful man. Well, I don't know about erudite, but...

This is it just because you don't know what the word means? It means learned. Exactly. So you are. You got me there. There you go. Sorry. Jerry, you're now in the echelon of, like, top five guests in terms of the level of commitment and research that you've done for this episode.

Yeah, I mean, that really comes from a place of, like, my, like, raging insecurity. I was just like, I should probably be pretty prepared for this one. I do apologize. I forgot about the kind of the main thing is that you were, like, a really beautiful and, talented artist. Oh, well. Stormflip Pioneer. There it is. Yeah, there it is. Jerry, do you want to, before we like dive in, do you want to walk me through, what was your

intro to skate videos in general? Like, do you remember the first one you ever saw? Were you already skateboarding when you saw a skate video, or was it sort of like, you saw a skate video and you're like, I want to do that? So I started skating, I think, like Christmas 92. I was 11. I just turned 11. And then I didn't know anything about like anything. Like it was just this mysterious like culture or whatever that was like kind of hidden, but it was like right there. And I didn't know anything. I got my skateboard.

Me and my friend got skateboards for Christmas and we just like just rode around and we knew what Ollie's were. We knew what Kicklips were. Were there no other skateboarders in your town? No, I grew up. I mean, at that time, skateboarding was was really small, a very, very small. We started the same time, isn't that weird? I didn't progress to the levels that you did. But you guys, just so you know, that's my original skateboard from when I was 11 years old.

From the CSS? CCS. CCS catalog. I don't remember. 30 years ago, that skateboard is 30 years old. Anyways, gone. That's a great choice. Thank you.

I thought it was really cool. I wanted that board when I was, I never got it. Oh, but yeah, so just didn't know anything. Going into the skate shop was extremely scary. Yeah, so intimidating. Like, skateboard, kids don't, I mean, like, no one understands if you weren't there, like, how scary it was to go. Yeah, there was, like, a 17-year-old guy in there who was like, what are you doing here? Or just like, you would just pick something out and they'd be like, nice or something.

You know, like, oh, cool, nice choice. You know, just like, so brutal. Anyways, I didn't even know skateboard videos existed when we started. We had, like, Thrasher at, like, the supermarket and we would get that. And we didn't know about videos. And we kind of didn't know what. skateboarding looked like kind of. I mean, besides like movies, like Back to the Future,

gleaming the cube or something like that, or whatever was just like in popular culture, but like we didn't really like know what it was actually like. And I remember my mom took me to the skate shop and then... Shout out to Sue. She really acclimated to America. She was like, I'm taking my son Jerry.

To the skate shop. I don't know what this is. I used to tell so many stories about like all the like horrible parts of growing up with them, but like looking back, they were so supportive. Oh my God, they were like the best. But so you go to the skate shop and you want to get in and out as quick as possible. And so I just go up to the video.

Yeah. So you just want to like, I just pick the first, when I tell people this, sometimes they trip out. But the first video I ever saw was 4-1-1 number three because I just picked one that I thought looked cool. From the skate shop. From the skate shop. Okay. And brought it home and watched my first skate video. And that's the first skate video I ever saw.

And that experience obviously was mind-blowing. Best of 4-1-1-1-Volume 3? No, it's just 4-1-1-1-3. Okay, because that would have been earlier than Best of 4-1-R-1-1-3. Yeah, those best-tuff ones came out later. What do you remember from the video?

Who was in it? Scott Johnston, Eric Koston, like people that I ended up knowing later in life. And, yeah, like, because it was a video magazine, that was kind of strange, too, because I didn't pick a, like, a company video where it was just like part, part, part.

credits. It was like this whole, like there's like articles about cities. There's like these things called profiles where it was just like basically a video part for a pro. These things called Wheels of Fortunes, which were like little like two minute video parts of like ams and stuff. So yeah, it was it was a weird way to be introduced to skate videos. But 401 became such a like ubiquitous part of skateboard video culture for like from then until, you know, however many years later. Do you remember anything about the music and the 411-3? Well, I'll just say that the intro music to 4-1-1, the boxcar song, was so... It just became...

Like, I think for skateboarders, like, of a certain age, when they hear that song, it's, like, visceral. You know, like, they... Right, it's like a little... You feel like, oh, wow, I'm about to see something really new and impressive, you know? Like, so... Soul, the box car. Yeah. Yeah.

That was the first thing I heard, and then it immediately just goes in. to the Scott Johnson part where it's hip hop. And I think like that was important for me to be like, oh, like, skaters like hip hop. Right. And I... What were you listening to at a tender age of 11 in San Jose?

So my parents didn't really listen to music. So I was here stories about people like, oh, my parents listen to this and this is what I grew up with. And I'm just like... Like my parents listen to Persian music. Actually, my mom was really into Madonna. So I did have some pop music. But like other, like pop music. But I'm like...

Yeah. Everyone was like, oh, yeah, my dad put me on a black Sabbath. I'm like, must be fucking nice. Yeah, that's totally insane. Like, because in my house, there was, we didn't have a record player, but there was like four records. There was like an Elvis record, a Beatles record. And then probably like two like Tchaikovsky records. I was like it.

Like my mom ended up getting into classical music more when I became a teenager. Yeah. But there was no music in my house. Like when we got in the car, it was like NPR. That's it. This is 92. So, right? You said 11.

Yeah. Because we're the same age. So, I mean, that was peak kind of like MTV and Grudge. Like, were you, were you fucking with MTV? So we didn't have MTV. Okay. We didn't have cable. Like, I had to go to my friend's house to watch MTV.

Wow. Yeah, like, we had, like, this is so classic, but we had a satellite in the backyard so my dad could watch his, like, Chinese shows or whatever, you know, like, or whatever sports or whatever. Like, we didn't have cable. And so, but at that time, I think, like, I was just starting to be like, okay, like, music is probably, you know, a way for me to, you know, to. create some kind of identity or something. And so I was like, okay, like, what's going on here? And then at that time, I was

sort of into like, just like radio hip hop and probably like, like I had Metallica the Black album. Right. You know, I just kind of like was like, what is the most easily accessible stuff? I guess radio hip hop at that time would have been pretty good

because it's like Dr. Dre the chronic Snoop Dog Tail End. So like I didn't even get that far into it. I feel like it was like, it was like naughty by nature and Chris Cross. Yeah, it was just like stuff. Yeah, yeah, totally. But at the same time as skating,

I sort of like started sort of exploring and getting really into certain things. Like I went through this total like death metal phase in seventh grade. Like where it was like morbid angel carcass. Wow. And Sepulterra. I love Sepulterra.

And then like pants. Pantara. Pantara was the first show I ever went to at San Jose State where I, like, lied to my mom and, like, was like, I'm sleeping over at John's house. Classic immigrant kid, first-gen kid move is I'm sleeping over at so-and-so's house. Yeah. As my dad once said, that's a loophole in the system. True. And we exploited the hell out of it.

We exploited the fuck out of that loophole, babe. They don't have us a curfew. And his dad took us. His dad just, like, put in earplugs and just sat there while his, like, White kids don't know. These old 12-year-olds. I don't know. The hoops we had to jump through to become culture.

Yeah. Do you, I mean, it's funny that you say this because it's making me think of something that I think is pretty like an impenetrable truth or whatever. But like, I feel the reason that skateboarding is such a culture, you know, is because it's so intrinsically tied to things like music and clothing. You know, it's like, it's really like beyond a. sport, it's like a subculture. And I can't, like, I can't separate for myself skateboarding from music because I have so many memories of, like, the videos and the songs, but also I feel like, and you know better because you know more of them, but it seems like skateboarders like are also, you know, tend to be into, like, cool music or like be into punk or be into a rap or like

be into like things a little bit under the surface. Would you agree with that? Yeah, in general, that's like totally true and especially of like that time. Of that era. Yeah, because, Because, like, I think, like, you know, skateboarding today is, like, way more accessible and accepted and kind of cool. And back then it was, like, I mean, if you wanted to skate and if you wanted to present as a skater, like, you had to be prepared to be bullied and made fun of, et cetera, et cetera. And also just, like, unattractive. You know, it's like just wasn't an attractive thing at that time. And so I think, yeah, so the people who were drawn to it, like, they really, you know, they had to kind of work for it. They really had to love it. And they tended to just be more creative, like, outsider people.

Yeah, weirdos. Yeah, I think they're just like is this. It's like a chicken or the egg situation. Well, it was just like, I think like, you know, if you're just like into transgressive stuff, like, you know, skateboarding kind of kind of checked a lot of the boxes, you know. Like as far as like, you know, that's why so many skaters I feel like end up becoming musicians. and painters, photographers, artists in general, writers, like, all that stuff, drug addicts. Well, it is the only sport that you can get fucked up all the time. Yeah.

And still kind of do. Still really do a high level of athleticism. Yeah. I think, like, the lack of structure is also very attractive. I think, like, when I was a kid, like, basically the whole, like, no rules aspect, you know, like, because, like, people were playing organized sports, like, soccer, baseball, all this stuff. And I never was interested in doing any of that stuff. So, but I was still sort of, like, athletic. Right.

And so, like, finding skateboarding was kind of perfect. Yeah, it's, like, even beyond no rules, like, breaking rules. Like, there's no rules and you're not allowed to go here, we're going to go there, you know? So, like, does appeal, maybe, like, you're saying, to the transgressive element in some people who are like, I want to do the thing I'm not allowed to do. Yeah, I think at the time, too, it sort of overlaps with that, like, 12-year-old kind of, like, stand-by-me age where you are kind of discovering. who you are and there is this like need for rebellion and like you're sort of like you know you're sort testing the boundaries of your environment and like what's what can you do like what and so when you start skating and you start being around other people who are also kind of like want to take

risks it's exciting so you know like like trespassing jumping fences like you know just basic destruction all that stuff it was just kind of like it all was so like seductive and guess what Even if you can't skateboard well, you can just hang out with skateboarders and jump the fence and drink beers like I did. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of like the- I did my best. Look at that. No, there's some scratches. I tried. Yeah, there are some scratches there. I could do an awly. Not always. I don't doubt it. I was just not good at it. Okay, I'm sorry.

But that is sort of the nice thing about skateboarding is, yeah, even if you weren't good at it, like, you know, there's still like a lot of ways to fit in. Yeah. You know, like, pick up a camera. Or like just also just like hang out. Like it's just if you were cool, like it didn't really matter. Like we didn't, not all my friends were good at skating. Right. But it was, you know, it was just like the best to hang out with them every day.

Okay. Well, because obviously this is a band plan. I'm said so I'm going to do my band plan thing, which is talk about the first ever skate video in 1965. It's called Skater Dator. Have you seen it? No. It doesn't have any music actually, but it is interesting. I watched it. It's honestly kind of cool

because the way that it's cool just to see a period of time that you weren't there for, and you can even see that the earliest skateboarders were still cool, against their environment of the 60s. It's worth a watch. It's pretty cool. It's like 17 minutes long. It's on YouTube. But then maybe the more

the next more major thing was the Bones Brigade video show, which obviously you know about from 1984, Powell Peralta. So it was pretty fun too. Yeah. Yeah, they're weird. That's what, like, even, again, even in Skater Data, you notice this.

There's, like, an outsider art element to these videos. Like, we were texting last night, and I was, like, telling you how, like, I watched the intro to Mouse and start crying. But I was just, like, I missed the time of feeling, like, this connection to this thing where, like, you didn't feel a connection to something before that, and it was so exciting. Like, I felt the same way when I went to my first Lollapalooza when I was. like 12. It was just like, oh my God, these people are kind of like me, you know? And like, and you hadn't maybe felt that way before because like this was still very much the time

of like jocks and cheerleaders were cool. And like, like having sort of these sort of interest wasn't how you fit in. Yeah. Right? Yeah, totally. I think like an interesting part about those bones, some of those Bones Brigade videos is like sort of they're not like, they're not like hypermasculine in any way. They're like goofy and there's skits and like the way that like Stacey like made those things it was sort of it was just so like the production value was pretty high but it was also very like homemade feeling yeah loose yeah and uh but they're definitely like strange yeah um like definitely not until like 8th Street comes along where like then it sort of starts to feel like okay this is more of a like this is kind of more feels right to me that's 1988 8th Street's shackled me now I actually had never

seen it and I was like, this is really fucking cool for 1988. Like, this is the one that starts with those twin ladies. It's still fucking lynchy. And they're like, what do you guys think about skateboard? There's like just these twin women and these insane outfits like walking down the street. Maybe in San Francisco, I couldn't

tell where it was. They are in San Francisco. Yeah. They've been in like so many skate videos. Those ladies? Yeah. Those two sisters. But I was just like, wow, this is like, immediately I was like, oh, let's fucking go. Like this is so we're being weird. What do you think about skateboarding? Well, I think it's a little dangerous.

I wouldn't try it. But you look like you're having fun and estimating. I think, like, once it starts getting into that sort of, like, low-fi, more DIY, more punk-type feeling, that's when it starts to get good to me. Yeah. But it's before my time, like, you know, like, so I like, but once I saw that stuff, I started to realize, I started to realize, like, okay, like, I understand the sort of the sequence in which. which this influences this and then this influences and then that's how we're at where we're at now. Yeah. So that was cool.

We'll get into where we're at now. I wanted to ask you, like, just to break it down, like, what are the different types of skate videos just to like put the landscape out there? In case there's someone listening to this who's like, I don't, I've never seen a skateboarding video. I just like bandsby, I don't want to listen to this. We're going to give you the information. Well, so I guess I'll just say that like there are videos that like a skateboard company will put out. Right. Like a board company, shoe company, whatever.

And typically it's just like intro, part of a skater, like they're individual skating for a few minutes, and then like a bunch of those. And then the credits. This is a very rudimentary question. But what is the point of these? Is it like pure marketing? Is it like to make money on the product of the video? Is it kind of both? Is it just expected?

It just became expected. Like at some point that like that's what you do if you have a company? I mean, I can't really speak for like a real. originally why they started, but like it is essentially your most powerful marketing tool as a skateboard company. It's like the way that you like, you can like show the people that you sponsor and your brand identity like all at the same time. And and I think as, you know, because skateboarders make these things, like outsiders don't come in and make these things. Like skateboarders make them. It did like pretty instantly become like a medium. You know, it's like a, it's like an art form within skateboarding. And I think it just sort of naturally was probably like instantly that way. But at the end of the day, yeah, it is just a marketing tool. Well, it makes sense because like on even another level where it's like skateboarding is not a typical sport in the sense where the other sports like you watch these people on television, these things are televised. So like you're like, oh shit, you see, you know, LeBron James sink those whatever.

Like to see a skateboard athlete do what they do best, like this was this was the way. Except for photos in print magazines, which maybe are not as impactful as seeing a moving image of a moving sort. Yeah, there's no – because, like, we had magazines with sequences in them. But, yeah, but, like, you know, they're like 9, 10, 11, 12 frames. And it's like, I mean, like, it is – it can't compare to what, like, watching a video. It's like the talkies. And also, I will say that, like, the videos typically were, filled with things you had never seen before.

You mean tricks. Tricks. Yeah. Like, there was just things that you, like you didn't think were possible or, you know, like that happened all the time.

Sometimes something would come out and you would be like, I cannot believe what I just saw. That's what I read about your stormflip. I didn't, I mean, also, I didn't invent that or anything. It just said it was the first time it was seen in a video. Is that wrong?

Probably. Okay, well, I just read it off. I don't know. You need to have a chat with your Wikipedia person. I know. Especially about that photo I hate the photo

Someone please change it for me I'm partial to this photo It feels very 2012 I don't know what years 2008 No that's probably like Yeah like 06

It's like white sunglasses This is really like such a time And a place You know This is like yeah like American apparel Like Like That was you one time, and my therapist would say that you should put your arm around that, Jerry, and embrace him into your heart and soul.

Yeah. Sometimes there's just nothing you can do. There's nothing you can do. That was you. You wore those white sunglasses. I actually, okay, just, we were out of, spanking drove me to a place. Those were the only sunglasses in his car. I didn't choose those.

Okay, you're clearing up, like, set in the record straight on the white sunglasses. I'm acting so desperate about this photo. Anyway, let's move on. Okay. Okay, so company ones. Those are maybe the most typical ones. Yeah. Right.

And then what about video magazines? Yeah, so there's video magazines like 411 and like, I guess static was one of them. Puzzle is one from Europe. And those are basically like, it's a video, which was typically about 45 to 60 minutes, and they just had all these sections that was like kind of just based on a magazine. Right. And I actually talked to Josh Friedberg, who created for. When you were doing your deep research.

Yeah, when I was doing my deep dive, and it was actually so fascinating because he, I was like, how did this even come about? And basically he was working at New Deal and he was doing artwork. And Steve Douglas asked him to like, hey, can you like make this zine that's going to come with one of the boards? And in the zine was going to be, like they were trying to take screen grabs of video footage of the right. and like put them, like Xerox them into this Xerox scene. And it was just becoming this huge nightmare. And then I don't know who, who like posited this, but someone's like, well, why don't we just make a video magazine or something?

Or someone said like, or someone maybe called the zine a video magazine. And then someone just clicked somewhere that was like video magazine. Well, why don't we just make a video magazine? So that's kind of like where they started it. Invented the form. And then they invented. 411, the video magazine form. And I find that, like, so fascinating.

And then even, and then with the music in the video, like, I guess Josh told me that Steve Douglas, like, through his connections or whatever, just went out there and just found music that was, like, grotes or whatever, that they could use without paying for it. So you would just, like, ask people or artists or labels or whatever. I think they would just go straight to a label and be like, hey, is there anything that you have that we can use? And they would be like, well, you know, we have this. And actually, like, I found out that a lot of music in skateboard videos did end up in videos because of, like, actions like that. Where people just straight up just called epitaph and was like, hey, like, do you have anything lying around?

Maybe it's not out yet that we could use. And they would just kind of like sell it like, hey, it's going to be in this skateboard video. And a lot of skaters are going to see it. Yeah, yeah. You're hitting your target demo. Yeah. Okay. Okay, then what about the, like, trans world and thrasher videos?

So those are, like, a secret third thing. Yeah, so those trans world videos were actually, like, really important. Okay. They put together a lot of, like, very talented people to make those videos. And so those would be, they're formatted, like, just a company video, but they're basically, like, a magazine who decided, like, oh, we want to make videos, too. Like, we have the resources to make videos, so we're going to do it. And they were very successful with it.

I have a dumb question. Yeah. So obviously, in a company video, the company is the one that pays for, like, you guys to go on trips and go out and get footage. Where is the footage for the other videos coming from? For 4-1, it's really, they, once it got to a certain, like, level, they could just pay people's salary to go out and film people. So they would film like, um, they would pay like, uh, like Anthony Clarival as a filmmaker. They paid Anthony to like basically go out into the

world and find people to like, hey, like, do you want to film a part for four and one? And, and then as the skater, you don't get paid. Like, was there any politics where like your company would be like, well, why are you like, why are you burning like what we could have used for our video, landing tricks for that video. Yeah, so like... Look at me trying to understand sports. You pulled it off. Thank you so much.

No, but like I think I never heard of anything like that happening, but in theory, like that could happen. But I think at that time, there weren't that many company videos coming out. Right. It was just like all exposure is good exposure. And the exposure of 4-1-1 was so vast that like, if I was like, hey, I'm going to film, I'm going to film this 4-1 part. Right. Like my sponsors would be really happy about that.

You're famously in Issue 20 Wheels of Fortune. Yeah. 1997. Yeah. That was me. So in terms of like, they're not that different from company videos. It was like, but I feel like there was more of like an artistic flare. I think like the art, like a certain type of artistic, there's many artistic flares in Skaper videos, but like whatever became the norm in like the mid, like the from.

2000 to 2010, like those Transylville videos, I think really, because the people who made those videos really influenced how Scapeware videos were made for like the next 10 years. Got that. I have another sort of like in the weeds question. So you're like, okay, 411 had these like filmers. Are they the ones that decide who they go to ask to film? Like is there an editor? This is what I'm saying. Is there a curator of these videos who's like, here's my list of guys and women and everyone else.

go ask them if you can film with them for this issue. I feel like I don't know exactly how it worked, but I would say Josh Friedberg was probably like the editor-in-chief. And then he has all these filmers all over the world that are, you know, some are on salaries, some are probably just freelance. And like they're just like, they just probably pitch stuff to him. Right. And then he'll just choose like where it goes.

And it doesn't have to be like if you're filming like this guy for the next month and you get like an adequate amount of footage, it's like you don't have to put it in the next station. It was just wherever it's going to fit, we'll put it there. Okay, that makes sense. Okay, and then the other one is like independent videos. Right. So I guess that would be like when like a shop in like Kansas City or Amherst, Massachusetts or whatever,

when they want to like make their regional team video thing, that's sort of another style of video. Did any of those like really take off? Yeah, I think probably the most notable ones would be like the PJ Ladd one for Coliseum. And, I mean, those Tildmode videos started out as NC Boardshop videos. FTC penal code that Aaron Mazen made. Yeah, there's a bunch, actually. But those are the ones that come to mind that, like, were really, that really, like, broke out into, like, sort of global recognition. Okay, cool.

Now that we've painted the landscape, this, I feel like maybe most people already know, but I didn't know this. can you tell people how a song is chosen for a skate video for an individual part? So it's honestly kind of all over the place. There's many different avenues. There's many. So I think like you've got to kind of have to think about it like first think about it like there are all these different eras of how skateboard videos are made. Right. But there is a through line.

But I would just say that like basically there is. There's usually like one guy who is like making the video. He's like out there filming. He is the John Minor, the Jacob Rosenberg, like the Greg Hunt, the, you know, Mike Tarnatsky, the Dave Schlossbach or whatever. And like he's sort of the director of the whole thing. Okay. And basically like I asked a lot of people about this and just from my personal experience, like they're generally the ones who like kind of find the music and choose the music. Unless the skater is sort of more, like, wants to be more involved.

The skater, like, kind of chooses how much involvement they want. Right. Like, there's... I would have thought that the skaters, given what we talked about earlier, would want to be involved heavily in what their song was. Some skaters don't care at all. Some skaters are just like, no, you, you deal with it. It's just not their thing.

Yeah. And then other skaters, like, I feel like, sort of Heath, Courchard. Heath Courchard, like, Kareem, Mike Carroll, like, Kareem, Mike Carroll. Those are examples of people that are very involved. Don't forget my guy Pat, who loves Primus. Oh, I looked into that. Pat, what's his last name? Duffy.

Pat Duffy. Yeah, I looked into that and I found out, like, that there's more of a primus connection than I previously realized. I'm really obsessed with that because I even was talking to my best friend, Sarah Natoff. Shout out, Sarah Tav. And she was like, it's crazy that you say that because I, like, viscerally remember watching skate videos when I was, like, in high school. Primus song coming on being so fucking mad about it and being like, ugh. And I was like, well, you can write a letter to Pat Duffy. I can just drop it right here.

Like, so yeah, obviously like as a kid, I was like, wow, this guy really likes Primus. But it turns out he does really like Primus and but his sister was dating a member of the band. And so there was like this. And so like the music was like it was like a slam dunk. It's like, oh, you're dating Larry. So it's not just free, but it's all. also like, and we're promoting my sister's boyfriend's band, and we don't have to pay for it. Exactly.

And who cares if people hate it? And even at that time, like, they didn't pay for rights at that time. But, like, it was, like, this total immediate connection to the band. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. And Pat's personality because, like, he just loved the band. He loves the Sloppings.

Yeah. He loves, yeah. Slopp, a slap into bass. You were saying there's some skaters, like, Heath. and Kareem and Mike Carroll who are very invested in what their song choice is and so they have a lot of

say in it. Yeah, but there's also situations where the guy who's making the video is just like like... Honestly, shout out Heath's retirement part in the All-White with the fucking Joy Division song. Oh my God. Stay cold. Drama. Love it. I loved it. With that song, man.

I... Yeah. I kind of like cried a little bit at the premiere. At the end. Does MegaRamp trick? Because, like, he tricked us. He told us he broke his collarbone and he didn't do it. He lied to us. Oh, he really wanted to up the drama.

Yeah. He was like, really priming the pump for you guys. Like, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he knew what he was doing. I'm pretty sure I was at that premiere. I have zero memory of it because as you'll remember, as we hung out a lot during this time, I drank very heavily.

And I don't remember this premiere. I remember my brother, Jason, was there. and I remember it was at the fourth theater. Yes. That's just about it. And I almost cried. And you almost cried. At Heath's last trick.

Yeah, that's beautiful trick. Okay, sorry, so I cut you off. But then, okay, so apart from these, like, several very involved skateboarders, the rest of the music is sort of chosen by the editor? Yeah, I think, like, they kind of just, like, pick stuff and they show it to you. And then they kind of make, maybe they'll make like a little bit of an edit just to kind of like grease it, grease the gears a little bit and be like, hey, like, what do you think of this? But ultimately it doesn't really matter. Like the skater could like kind of be like, like, I don't know.

But like at the end of the day, I think, you know, the guy making the video is just going to. Does the guy making the video also edit the video is just one guy? It's usually just one guy. Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty intense. Films it, directs it, cuts it, picks the songs. Yeah. And like, during the time that I grew up.

there's a lot of classic rock there's a lot of like they just went out and basically just bought like a bunch of like best of records and they just you know because there's like a lot of and when you say bought you're talking about like literally just the record they did not license Led Zeppelin or

no they just went to like they literally just went to the warehouse and spent like shout out warehouse music in Torrance California I love you rest in peace I got a lot of great and they would just spend like hundreds of dollars and then just go listen to the music and then you know like those plan B videos like there's just all there's like all this like

Zeppelin and Steve Miller band and it's so funny because like when you find out that they just kind of like went and bought just these greatest hits records. Like the kind that we're like on like TV commercials. And they have a hard job trying to like figure out what's going to work like what is going to work with Mike Carroll what is going to work with Pat Duffy or not

Pat Duffy was. Primus all the way. It was going to be Primus. But like yeah like you know. We had a great this mortal coil part too on a video that I can't remember the name off off my head. It's very interesting. Very interesting choice.

I hope he chose it. I don't know if he did. You said something really interesting to me, though, when we were texting, which I wanted to bring up, which is you mentioned that there is this, like, great sense. And I don't know if it was just in you personally or if you feel it's like a widespread thing among skateboarders, but about the idea of the song being a song you can live up to. Like your part lives up to. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about that? I don't know if this is something that a lot of skateboarders feel.

but this is just something that like where I'm from and who I am, I feel, because like there's this, there's this like, so many skaters and people in general, they just have this like imposter syndrome feeling. And like, there are songs that like, like very powerful, dramatic, like a song like, like, like creep by radio head or some, or like, like, even songs I've skated to that are just like these powerful, powerful pieces of music and you're kind of kind of. afraid if you use it in your part that your skating won't really match up to it, even though like it kind of doesn't matter at all. But I think like during the time that I was in big skate videos, it did matter. But like, but in like in like 1992 when skateboarding was a little bit more carefree, like I feel like that sort of thought process, it didn't really matter. No one was trying to make like the most dramatic video part of all time. But like, you know, during a certain period, I feel like when I was doing it, I did get that feeling all the time. From like kind of a more, in a shitty way, like, I would watch a video part that used a song that I considered to be at a certain level.

And then the skating would be like at this kind of like lower level and be like, oh, damn, they didn't pull it off. I would have those feelings. You don't have to name their names. No. But I can see that. I just did a cursory search to see who has skis. skateboarded to Radiohead in general. And then I was like, well, of course Tony Hawkins skateboard to the national anthem.

I haven't seen that part, but I'm just going to go ahead. It's from what is that from? ADO, one step beyond. Oh. Jason Jones, Radiohead Karma Police. That one, I don't know. I haven't seen it. I have no memory of it. Jason Jones. I was a guy I went to middle school with named Jason Jones who literally gave me my first thrashore magazine and then disappeared into the night. I wonder what's the same person. Do you have long blonde hair? He did have blonde hair. Like blonde blonde blonde? Yeah, blonde blonde.

He was like a white blonde guy. Oh. Is he from John? Is he from? Is he from John? Is he from Jones? I don't know where he's from. Jason Jones.

If you're listening and you are at Cali Mayor Middle School in 1993 and you gave a young Persian girl her first thrashner magazine, get in touch. Truly died. I remember he got kicked out of class and then I never saw him again. Whoa. No. That happened to kids at my school. They just like disappeared. Where did they go?

Like my friend Alex that we skated with, one that he just didn't come to school. ever again. You're going to the continuation school. Well, the rumor was that his parents who were probably kind of like hardcore Mormon or something. I grew up running a lot of Mormons. Took them out of school. Took him out of school and probably like just sent him somewhere. Right.

You know, to the farm or whatever. That's where dogs go to now. You mean probably more like a military school or like a boarding school. I'll just point out a song, choice, and skate part that I do feel lived up to it. Jamie Thomas, skating to Bobo O'Reilly. in his zero video I mean

Like let's fucking go Because that's a fucking That's a song Yes Like you better fucking Knock that shit out of the part No he brought it He definitely brought it for that

And he's good at that Like his Do you feel like he picked that song? I would say 100% It really it really hits He's like He's like a very like In charge guy

Kind of guy Yeah so like there's no I mean someone might have suggested it to him But I doubt it He probably was in control He was probably thinking about that song. While he was skateboarding. That's so cool.

See, that is so cool. That idea to me is very like. Yeah, actually, like, Mark Johnson-O has told me that his dream, one of his dreams was to pick the song first and then try to create the skating to go with the song. And I don't think that's ever been done. Do you think you're too past your prime to do it? It sounds like a cool idea, but honestly, like, what would it look like? And would it even be noticeable?

And who would care? Yeah. You don't know what I mean? Like, how would you convey, communicate that that was happening? Yeah, that's just like a weird, like... I mean, you know how you could see it? I'm not me, like, but like if... It maybe wouldn't lend itself to, like, the most ornate tricks,

but, like, you could, like, land on the beat, you know? Which is very cool, but it's already something that you can just do through that... Do with editing. Yeah, exactly. So, I don't know. Interesting idea. That's right. We're just spitball.

But, you know, yeah. No one do it. Keep it. I mean, these kids, these kids today are not alright. I don't think they're going to be doing it respectfully. Now I want to talk about the eras. Because I feel like, for me personally, the more formative music discovery ones were the very early ones. Like, even though like in 91 I was like nine, but it didn't matter because the guy you hung out with who was four years older than you when you're 11,

there's only so many fucking skate video. So you're just watching the same ones from four years ago. So it doesn't matter when it came out. So like, like I said, mouse crying. Like those ones, like video days, blind video days. I wanted to ask you, do you think they put Guy Mariano's part to the Jackson 5 song because he's so young? Because he's the youngest one in the video. I was really thinking out.

I was like, oh, is that kind of like a little, like, stylistic choice because he's the baby? Absolutely. Yeah. And I found out recently that Mark Gonzalez actually chose that song for Guy. Like he was like, guy should skate to this song. And it's definitely because, like, it's the child prodigy. I looked it up and he wasn't that young. He was like 15, but he looks like he's nine.

Yeah, he looks extremely young. Yeah. I was like, okay. I'm almost positive. That's the first time I heard Black Flag. Because of my war is Jordan Richter's part. Let's fucking go. It's one of the best soundtracks.

It's Dinah Jr. doing the cover of Just Like Heaven. I've never heard that before. And then we talked about this on text, but I didn't know until last night because I had never, like, why would I go back and look into this something from 40 years ago? But Jason Lee, one of my early faves. What a beautiful career Jason Lee has had for himself. I know. So it's pretty golden. Yeah.

His song, well, he has two songs, but one is obviously who's good to fucking real world off metal circus. Like, let's fucking go. I don't know if he chose that. I want to believe it, but I don't know. But the other song, and you knew this, and I didn't, is credited to a band called Milk, which was Jeff Tremaine's band. But did this band exist in real life. So it did exist in real life.

It was Jeff Tremaine, Andy Howell, and, forgive me, but like two other people that are... Carl Osborne, Mark Lumen. Yeah. And, yeah, they just never released anything. And they were just kind of like, as far as I know, they were just kind of like friends with those guys, Spike, and they were just like, yeah, like we'll make a song or use this song. They made like five songs and it came out in 2002 allegedly,

but you can't find, I think it might be on YouTube, but it's not on streaming or anything. The album is called Jason's song, and I believe Jason Lee actually sings on that one. On what they released? Yeah. Which is not the song. The song that he states to is called The Knife song, yeah.

Also, fucking slaps that song. Very cool. Very cool. Anyways, so we're talking about that early era. So it's like the Alien Workshop one that had a bunch of Dinosaur Jr. in it. Memory screen. Yeah. Yeah, I think like once people saw video days, I think.

Right. And even like, yeah, and even like, you know, like the GNS video footage, like I think once people saw, like, once that whole DIY lofi thing started to happen. And then like Dinosaur Jr. is kind of like a no-brainer. choice. Let's talk about this. I think, and it's kind of impossible to tell, but I'm willing to bet money that the most used artists in skateboard videos is dinosaur Jr. Probably. I think so. It seems it comes up a lot. Yeah, no, it comes up all, like throughout. On interstitials, on parts. Yeah, like, because it's even, I mean, it's even in this video called Ohio Skateout, which is like, yeah, it's like just, it's just an independent video based on like a,

contest in Ohio. And there is a Dinosaur Jr. song in it. And I think from that point, it's just, until this day, like, there's just people to just keep using Dinosaur Jr. And why do we think that Dinosaur Jr. is the most used artist, if it is so, which I think it is, in skateboard videos. I'm not really sure. I have, like, I have, like, zero, like, I'm just all for it. You know, I love Dinosaur Jr. But I think, like, it just perfectly fits with skateboarding because and especially during that like pocket like that like 90 to 93 pocket and it's just like that like sort of lo-fi Midwest East Coast sort of artistic yeah um like do-it-yourself immersed message yeah just I think that the sound and the skating especially in like alien

workshop videos like the the sound the the the the visual aspects of those videos and skateboarding it's it is kind of like perfect together and it has stood the test of time And I think so that's why there's no way to really like say exactly why, but because it is still being used and because I never get sick of it, I feel like, oh, this is just the way it's supposed to be. Yeah. And it can go and, you know, it goes for other stuff too, but I don't know, Dinosaurs Jr. It goes for Sonic Youth too. I was going to say, I felt the next closest runner-up is Sonic Youth, which Sonic Youth makes a lot of sense to me, though, because it does feel like Sonic Youth has like California roots, but also New York roots. and like Kim Gordon was friends with Mike Kelly. It just feels like there's like a lot of connections

kind of back to the skateboarding world. And maybe those exist for Dinocon's Junior Show. I just don't know. Yeah. In order to get these songs and not fear that like someone's going to come and sue your ass. Yeah, I think there's just like an innate sort of connection you feel to these artists as skaters.

Like there's just like this like subculture need to like, that sounds stupid. But you know what I mean. Like there's the connection. is kind of obvious. Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever skateboarded to a Dennis or Jr. song?

No. But famously, you have skateboarded to a Sonic Youth cover of a carpenter song. Superstar. Yeah. That's good stuff. Yeah. I was made very sad in my research because I had not watched the behind the scenes making of Injoys Bag of Suck. Yeah.

And you fall down something. much. Yeah. I felt very worried for you. I was like, Jerry falling down really hard so many times. Hit your head multiple times. Yeah, I've hit my head a lot. Feels like it might have lasting implications.

Probably. Probably. Do you, this is a genuine, serious question. Do you fall more than other skaters? And is that why there's a focus on how much, maybe not how much, but how hard you fall? Is that like a, is it? part of your persona as a skateboarder? It's how I've been, well, there's two things.

It's, it's A, how I've been presented, but it's also an accurate representation. So, like, I don't know why, but, like, yeah, like, I do slam hard. And... Listen, go bigger, go home is what they say. Yeah, I mean, I don't know what it... I don't know what my relationship is to... Self-harming. Yeah, but...

Or just, like, the... The like, there's just, it's funny because when I'm, when I'm skating and I'm about to do something that's like scary or hard or whatever, there is like, like, it's just all this fear and anxiety and like hesitation. And then out of nowhere comes this like, well, just, just jump on it. And that's got, and I either make it out alive or, you know, it just, it's, it's sort of hit or miss. But yeah, there's just this moment where I'm just like, all right, I'm just going to be stupid right now. And sometimes it pays off. And sometimes. it is like a total disaster. Total disaster. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes you're borderline uninsurable. Yeah, I guess it just paid off enough times to where I was like, well, I'm just going to like keep gambling.

Yeah. It is kind of like a weird gambling mentality. Yeah. Or like the risk reward thing, I just kind of like, well, we'll just see. Right. I might make it. Man, it hits so much harder when you see them fall a bunch of times and then see them land. And then they did that for you in the American.

Yeah. It's a half you falling and then half not falling. Yeah. I mean, I've talked about this a lot, but like it is. But like, I mean, that video part is only about 15 tricks that I land. And then the whole first half is just slamming. And like, John Minor just, he just took it all and created this, like, drama. Yeah, it's so cool.

And it builds up because then you're like, then you're really rude. You're like, you got this Jerry. You can do it. Yeah, it's so funny. It's so manipulative. You get this, you become like emotionally invested in it. But that's how it is.

That's the reality of what you're doing, actually, though. You are falling a bunch of times before you land usually, right? Yeah. I guess like people have told me, yeah, it's like humanizing or whatever. Yeah. But, I mean, I can't watch it. It's kind of just like embarrassing. Too cringe.

It's like how I can't listen to this podcast. It is a little bit. It is a little bit. That in particular. Oh, yourself falling on. Yeah. Because there's like screaming. You're really, you're really vocal.

Yeah. Which I would be too. It looks painful and frustrating. It's a combo of frustration and pain. One time I was at a bar and someone who didn't skate was like, I feel like I saw you, I saw your blooper reel on YouTube. Called it a blooper reel. I was like, that's so funny.

This actually leads me another question, which I can't believe I hadn't thought about, even though we already talked about how skaters should skate to a song that they're going to feature. But do you, do you guys, are you guys skating to music? music in general, or is it just like dead silent and people sitting there? Oh, like when we're just actually skated? Yeah. It's, I mean, generally it's just dead silent. It's just really weird.

You wouldn't feel more like pumped up if you had some like Pantera. I mean, maybe. I mean, like, Muska used to bring his like, you know, his boom box around it. But honestly, like, the people that I've skated with, it, people barely use music. I imagine it would adversely affect the edit too because then you'd have to try to like cut around. Because you need to hear the diagetic sounds of the skateboard, and then you're putting a song. If there's already a song, you know what I mean?

Yeah, but even when people aren't filming, like, it's just music's just rarely a thing. I mean, sometimes, you know. Yeah, we are just sort of doing that. But, I mean, like, sometimes someone will put a little speaker down or whatever, but, like, it's just not very normal. Yeah. We don't really usually skate to music in real life. Given all the, well, anyways, back to our,

But sometimes actually, like, you know what's actually really annoying is kids at skate parks who have, like, AirPods in. Well, that seems crazy because that's like driving with AirPods in. You're like, no, yeah. Don't you need to have some spatial awareness? Yeah, it's like actually. Someone's going to slam into you. Yeah, it's like dangerous. It's dangerous.

That's when you're like kids. Yeah. It's like, hey, like, you're skating dangerously. That's who you are now. Yeah. You're a cop now. Basically, the point I was trying to make, which I think you can speak more to is like this first era, which where would you say it ends. Because in my little list of ones that were important to me,

oh my God, foundation, tentacles of destruction. Featuring my heartthrob, my pictures on my wall, Heath Carchard and Steve Barra. Steve Barra is going to melt with you by Modern English. Great choice. Phenoms. There's just a lot. Toy Machine, Welcome to Hell. Love that one.

Mouse, like I told you, Craig. Do you want to talk about a 20-shot sequence? Sure. Yeah. Because I've been talking a lot about more, I guess, like rock-focused things. But there was a ton of hip-hop and skate videos, too. Yeah, so, like, 20 shot sequence was a World Industries video, and World Industries was down in Torrance.

And I think it was in Torrance at that time. But it was just basically, like, all L.A.s, mostly L.A. skaters. And also kind of mostly non-white. So, like, Hispanic and black skaters. And so they brought kind of, like, and this is also sort of the time. Because that was 94. 94. And, like, they were using stuff, like, red,

Red Man Method Band and like basically like and too short and then like so that was very cool because they chose the music really well and it went with the skating really well it really complimented their whole identity and also Wu Tang was like a pretty new group at the time like Uteng was like 92 and so like combining these skaters this company with this music it was super impactful for me because like I I mean I didn't I wasn't like really into hip hop but like it's when I saw these videos I understood like the like the sort of like visceral nature of like early 90s hip hop which like you know that type of music is not really being made anymore I like how it's like specifically so much red man yeah there's such good songs no yeah they really chose well and I I found out that

Karim actually had a lot to do with a lot of the music that was in those world videos. In all of them. Yeah. In this one also. Like New World Order, Twain shot, and trilogy. I feel like Kareem was sort of, I mean, I think he was kind of like a fatherly figure to a lot of these guys where he would kind of like, you know, he would choose his own music and he would also help the other skaters. Like, hey, I think you should skate to this. Yeah, that is very interesting.

And then I was super interested in New York mixtape, which, again, I didn't really watch it in real time because, you know, we were West Coast and we didn't, I don't remember ever seeing it. I'm sure it was, you know, making its way around here, but I didn't sit down and smoke weed in some guys fucking living room and watch it. So this was made by Eli Gensler and R.B.Molly, filmers, and editors. What I thought was so interesting, you watched this one, obviously. Only once. Okay. What's so interesting about this one with. the music is that it is

all rappers' freestyles taken from Stretch and Bobbito's radio show because that was like their friends. So it's such an interesting and there's all these sort of like, you know, it's like Fat Joe and Buster Rhymes and like that to me was so cool because I'm like, I can't imagine

you're like watching this and then you're hearing these like incredible freestyles by these rappers that are sort of like really up and coming. Like what an interesting form of exposing people to music. It's a one-of-a-kind video. Yeah, exactly. Because that's not something, like,

the other ones are very just straightforward. Like, we put this song on top of this. Yeah. Like, nothing like that has ever been done again. I can see why, because apparently matching up the audio from the radio show recordings, which was, like, analog,

and then syncing it to, like, the digital and analog video was, like, incredibly difficult. and they kept losing the sink and they had to like speed up and slow down the tapes by hand as they went and that's actually why the second half of it is just one song

because they were sick of editing they were like we can't do this anymore they were going to kill themselves yeah and then RB had gotten a bunch more footage they just shoved all the extra footage into that second half with the one song that was kind of interesting yeah I'm not too familiar

with like the mixtape video like I think was incredible, but it didn't, like, it just didn't resonate with me. Yeah. So I only watched it once. Yeah. But like, it feels really East Coast. So it's like the most East Coast. Like it's this stretch, like, you know, Zoo York.

It's like, yeah. But what's funny about, like, East Coast-wise is like Eastern Exposure 3, which is like one of the most important East Coast videos. Yeah. They were still using like, like, Dinosauri, Sebedo. Right. You know, like a lot of. I know exactly the video you're talking about. a great Cevado song.

It starts with the dinosaur and then goes... I think it's rebound, maybe. And then goes into a seven-o song. Yeah. I want you to correct me because you know better

because I'm just looking at it like from looking through the lists and like I remember kind of just watching up until maybe Baker 2G. I remember watching Baker 2G in college. And then I kind of maybe came back and then it felt like a different era. But is that where would you put the delineation?

Because like Baker 2G still feels very much like the like the like logical expression. It's almost like kind of like a beautiful pinnacle because it has so many good songs in it and it's so wild and fun to watch. But it still feels of this like first chunk. Yes, I would agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because it's still, it had like top tier skaters, but it was just made in such a like sort of DIY and sort of thoughtfully chosen music. It was just, how old was this Knox child at this point? I don't know. He's young. He looks like he's literally eight years old. Yeah, he's probably like 13. And he has the best songs, I have to say, if I'm allowed to say.

In this one, like Nation of Ulysses, bad brains, like, locust. Yeah, the bad brain song. Yeah, bad brains. It's big takeover. And then Jim Griko has good songs, too, obviously. He has another Locus song. And Gloria, very good. Anyways, so then would you say...

The Gloria song is one of my favorites. It's one of my favorite. combinations. Is that Gloria song with that era of Jim? It's such like an elegant he's just an elegant skater and then the song is so like elegant I mean this is me not understanding skateboarding

like you do but it's just the one I watch it that's what the song makes me feel is happening. Yeah I feel like that was a perfect match. He's actually chosen a lot of good songs for himself. I mean he wears a lot of jackets you know he likes sick. Yeah but that's only yeah but that's only like one era. He has like

six different eras I feel like the tail end of this, which is like we're at 2009, skateboarding has reached a different level in culture, maybe not like the crazy level that it's going to reach, but it starts to kind of influence. We're not quite at skinny jeans. We're about to be at skinny jeans. We're almost there.

We're probably like three years away or two years away maybe. But then like I remember skateboarders kind of switching to skinnier jeans. and then seeing it really like go into the culture, you know? Yeah, I think just like people had their eye on it for years. And then just through the cycle of like, I'm just saying like mood board wise. Right, right, totally. Like whatever is happening in skateboarding has always been on mood boards. Right.

From. Well, but that's how we got streetwear. Yeah. One of the ways we got streetwear. Yeah, but even like in the APC up into the higher levels of fashion, I feel like there's always at least, you know, a couple photos of like. I don't know, whatever, like, the Baker guys were doing or whatever, you know, was going on and skating. Man, this is why I know I'm, like, sick in my heart and soul, but, like, watching the earlier ones, like, because that was more my era, like, pre, pre, like, 96, 98. I'm like, I still think this is peak male dressing.

I still think men should all dress like this. That's hilarious. They look cool as hell. They'll never not look cool to me. I mean, we haven't gotten quite into giant pants. Giant Pants is like late 90s. Like blind gene, Goofy Boy type pants? Yeah.

Yeah, that's like 92. And then it comes back much later. Not quite in the same way. Right. Like that like that Jenko style of pant, like has never fully come back in like a very accepted cool way. But, you know, it gets, it comes back here and there in sort of like peripheral cultures to skating. But in terms of like straight up like chinkgo gene, blind jeans things, I feel like it just lives in this like 92-3 zone where your heart also lives.

Where would you say that first era sort of ends and the next era begins? Just like obviously in your estimation of the way we're talking about with the music at least. I mean it's hard to say because like there are really really no hard. lines in terms of like where music totally changes. There are trends. There are trends that come in and out. Like I would say that like early 2000s in these trans world videos when like Ty Evans was making Trans World videos, like he introduced, him and John Holland introduced a lot of electronic music and like kind of like house techno style music because of the because of the, I feel like because of the way that Thai wanted to edit. He wanted to edit the skating to these songs.

Like he wanted quicker, like more energetic editing. Yeah, like quicker energetic editing and like kind of like a lot of like zz-z-z-like back-and-forth type stuff that he did. Like he really did do sort of like DJ-esque like kind of editing. And he wasn't the only one, but I feel like he was the most prominent and the most influential. And I feel like he kind of like he did change the way skate videos were made for a while. What are some examples that come off the top of your head? like modus operandi or probably like the reason and then and then he ended up making like yeah right and like girl videos and like i think like the the whole like spectacular skateboard video he was a big part of

um like so the genesis of that that type of skateboard video like those girl videos those production values um the way that like the skaters were pushed to a certain like the like he pushed them like really, really hard. And he basically pushed everything and changed the way skateboarding videos were made for a second. Yarrid is such a good example of where you can see, like, musically, like, it's so all over the place. But there's also, like, more contemporary music. Like block party? Yeah, and like Interpol and a Lady Tron song.

Is that sound right? That sounds right. A litigre. Yeah. But then also there's like, you know, there's still Michael Jackson. There's still Guns and Roses, you know. It's like David Bowie, Joy Division. It's like all happy Mondays.

Pixies. Yeah. So it's like very interesting. It's like it's really establishing like obviously we like live in the zone of indie, like cool indie music like dinosaur music like Dinosonic Youth. Back to like Happy Mondays Joy Division like all that shit. And then also classic rock is there, like you pointed out. And now, and then hip hop is in this one a lot. There's a ghost face.

There's so California, Charlie Tuna and Fatlip. So fucking California. And then death in Vegas. Like you're saying, more like electronic music. This one is really interesting. There's also a lot of songs on here. Morrissey song, Smashing Pumpkin's song. Are there more budgets now?

Like now that we're in 2003-4. Is skateboarding more profitable? And thus there's more money to put into things like videos. Absolutely. Okay. Yeah, like I would say 100%, the amount of budget that became available during this time affected how skateboard videos were made and it affected what music was available. Are they clearing it at this time? At this time, I feel like this is the beginning of the time where like skateboard videos were being produced.

Like there were 75,000, 100,000 copies of these videos being. made. So yes, they did have to go through the process of licensing music, whether it would be like a one time in perpetuity type deal or if it's like a per unit type thing. Like I don't know what all the rules are with licensing. But yes, this is the time when you had to, if you were a company that was a certain size and selling a certain amount of videos. And this is also before YouTube or anything like that, like you did have to, you know, attain the rights. And that became a real hassle. That became a real hassle. And it also, what it takes to like get the rights

is pretty insane because it's not just the artist. Like you could like know the artist. You could like know Lars Ulrich or whatever. But that doesn't mean you can attain the rights because like who owns the publishing rights is, it can be very complicated. What I'm hearing is that you don't think musicians

should be paid for their work. Is that what you're saying? No, that's not what I'm saying. It feels like what you're saying is it should just, they should just give it to you. No, I'm just saying. No, please, don't. Don't say that. Don't get me canceled.

No, no, I get what you're saying. Yeah, of course, it's like Byzantine level of trying to undo who's the, like, who owns the, you know, publishing, the song publishing. Who owns this? Who played on, like, what label owns it? Like, it's a whole situation. Yeah. But, I mean, it makes sense to me at this point. It's like jackasses on MTV, right?

And pretty thriving. Like, so you have Spike Jones directing a video for girl or being involved in, like, of course they're going to be like, put the money in my hand. Yeah. You can't just go make this, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But again, I think, like, sometimes they understand the reach that a skateboard video will have. Because there's a promotional element. Also, just like a cool, like it's like a cool thing to be aligned with element.

I totally understand the perspective of like, no, we're not going to. Yeah. Unless they pay. Right. Type thing. But this is pre like even the idea that this is going to be like daily available on the internet for you to click as much as you want. This was still just like we're selling VHS tapes. Yeah.

And we're buying CDs. Yeah. Yeah. And tapes. I think like I know that I'm like very biased in this situation. but like if your song hits and is in a really good video part, like, I mean, I don't know, obviously, but like the, like, just think about, like, how many Dinosaur Jr. albums that I've bought because I just heard it that one time in the beginning, I mean, times like thousands. Can I just say this is insane? I just want to do Dinosaur Jr. role.

Okay. Dinosaur Jr. Freaksing. Mike Vilelli, Speed Freaks, 1989. Dinosaur Jr., they always come. David Nielsen, Speed Freaks, 1989. Dinosaur, just like Heaven, we said, Rudy Johnson, blind. Jay Maskis, a little ethnic song, memory screen. Dinosaur, The Lung. Rob Diedrich, memory screen. Dinosaur, feel a whole lot better. Steve Clare, memory screen.

Dinosaur Jr., Budge, Dway Petre? Petrie. Memory screen. Start chopping. Rockman Chung? Powell Play, 93. Puk and Cry, Hideo Sarkaraghi, El Numero Trace, 1993. We're only in the 90s here.

On the brink, Donnie Barley, Eastern Exposure 3. Yeah, we know, Brian Anderson, jumping off a building, toy machine, 1998. This is just the 90s. There's way more. This is crazy. Yeah, it's so, it's just, I don't know. It's just... What goes better?

Wine and cheese, Dinosaur Jr. and Skae videos. What's the next? Because I do feel like if you watch a 2016 skate video, we're real far from 1996 skate video. What do you think changed about the tone and vibe you're going for with music and a skate video? Because I assume that changes over time with like all of culture changing. And I'm thinking of like the animal collectivization of skate video. that happens sort of like, I guess that's like what, mid-2000s?

Yeah. The pitchfork dot comification of music in music, you know, in skate videos. I don't know. I mean, I don't really know what to say about it other than that there were just like, during that time there were just very, very powerful like skateboard filmmakers who were really pushing like their narrative and their choices. They were like atoors now. Yeah, kind of.

Yeah. I think like during this time, there are, like, the companies have budgets and they're able to hire these sort of, like, relatively insane skateboard filmmakers who have a lot of experience coming up to this point. Now they're the guys, and they are the people that are just like sort of, they're like sort of like the directors and they want to, and they're hired for their vision, their musical tastes, their everything. and it sort of just drove how skateboard videos were made for a really long time. And their musical choices really did dictate the landscape for a while. And there's major exceptions like we talked about earlier. Like there's all kinds of things going on at the same time. You know, like there isn't just one type of skateboard video that's happening.

Like there are shot videos. There's, you know, there's all types of things that are going on. But I feel like at the top in terms of like the sort of like, like mainstream culture of skateboarding. Like there were these guys making like the DC video and like minefield photosynthesis and, you know, state gold and this is skateboarding and like all these sort of like, you know, cream of the crop sort of videos or whatever.

And I guess my follow up question would be like, how important do you think music is in skate videos now as opposed to maybe how important it was before? Do you think equally important or something has changed? It's hard because the full-length skateboard video is sort of dead. It still exists here and there. It's short-form content. Like everything else, like everyone has ADD and you just like see a part.

Where do they go Instagram? YouTube, short. YouTube, yeah. I am older too, so that has something to do with it. We can't separate ourselves from old man shaking fist at clouds. It's true. But because of the context of like a full-length video like back in the day and how long you waited for it and how few videos there were and how there was just less of everything. Yeah.

And also less ability to discover music. Yeah. And, you know, for our conversation. Because because there were so fewer resources, everything was more special. So it's just like it's really hard to compare. content, whatever you want to call it, from back then versus today. Because today it just feels like there's so much stuff that comes out all the time in short form, in short form that like everything feels so unimportant.

It's just every once in a while something comes out. And, you know, that time you were just talking about, like, you know, like 2016 or whatever. Like that 1617 era. Yeah. I think like something that's worth mentioning is when Cherry comes out. Right. So when Cherry comes out, that is sort of a...

Bill Strobeck. Bill Strobeck. That kind of is a sort of sea change where it is a breath of fresh air. Everybody sees the video and it's just like, whoa, like, this is a feeling that we haven't seen in a long time. Because it was like a full length that was like meant to be experienced that way. It was kind of like, oh, like, we're so back? First of all, it's very low production value. It's a very like on the ground skateboard video.

There's no bells and whistles. It's just Bill in the streets with these kids. And you can also tell that his relationship with all these kids and Dylan and Alex and everybody, they are very tight. And that is something that cannot. Alex Olson. And that cannot be faked. And you really feel it. And then on top of that, on top of that is the soundtrack.

You know, like the soundtrack is very good. Bill did a really good job. Yeah. It's great taste of music. And he like really put together like things that wouldn't necessarily make sense at first, but he really did make it make sense. Like Dylan Skating in excess, like the Jane's Addiction song in the beginning. All those things are very, at first you're like, huh? And then he mixes it in with like hip hop and, you know, it's just like Rayquan or whatever.

And you're just like, like, Dill and Aves skating at Rayquan is like such a nice compliment to everything else that's going on. Yeah. Because there is like a juxtaposition between like their personalities and skating with the music and some. And that cannot always be pulled off. Right. But he really did it. So yeah, that's sort of like a video that I wanted to shout out as like, you know, things were sort of sort of going in this like direction where I feel like people were like, ah, you know, it's getting kind of who cares. It's getting a little like, I hope something new comes along and something did.

And luckily like, you know, with with Supreme, you can. Do they have money? I think they have a little stash. Yeah. I think they have like, I don't know, they have something going on. Yeah. Yeah, but they could basically, you know, they can get whatever. And cool for their whatever to be something really authentic.

Like you're saying, like something not like super bells and wizzlesy in terms of the filmmaking, but then having all this incredible music that they obviously were able to pay for to like soundtrack it. Yeah, and I think it was, yeah, it was just a great move to make that video. I'm interested. I mean, I didn't. have a chance to interview any 12-year-olds if you're 12 and you're listening. What if I had just gone to the skate park, like, lurking around, like, asking to speak to 12-year-old boys? Jeanne telephone police, I think, is what would have happened. Yeah, it might have been looked

a little weird. But I did, I did speak to a friend who is turning, he's 27, turning 28 this year, so obviously kind of a full generation minimum past ours. I was curious. I was like, did Did you discover music through skate videos? And he was like, yeah. And I was like, oh, that's cool that it was like still happening. And he like pointed in specifically actually to Dead Meadow. Okay. Which was used in a lot of skate videos, but I think maybe most famously in Stakeold, Colin

Provost Bar, which I love Dev Meadow. But it makes sense. Like I knew about Dev Meadow because by that time I was like in the world of music and knowing things. But like if you're 2010, I mean, he's like 10 years old, you know, like that's so cool. Like you're like, why would you ever hear Dead Meadow, you know? So I was like, oh, I hope that, again, I don't know because I'm so far removed from it now, but like me weeping, watching old skate videos. I just like hope that that is still a thing.

I like, because it was, again, for me that was the most important part in the end. Like I loved watching skate videos because I liked skateboarding, but the music is what meant so much to me. And then I wouldn't have found some of this stuff without it. And I really just hope it's still happening. Yeah, I think it definitely still happens. Yeah. Because, like, my, the very first time, it hit me that, like, the music was just doing something to me. Yeah.

Was when I saw Jeremy Klein's part in Ravers where he skates to cocto twins. Yes. And when I, when that. Jeremy Klein, kind of a goat right now of, like, what songs he's skated to. If I had time, I would have sat and made some rankings. No, absolutely. Like, when that song comes on, I had never heard the band before. Yeah.

And mixed with his skating and the way it's edited with all the like weird anime B-sides and like the goofy side. Like I was like, this is, I don't even know what's going on, but you just feel it. You're just like, whoa, like this. I love this. Like I love skateboard videos. That's the moment where I was like, I love skateboard videos and I want to see as many as possible. Like another example of that would be like in tentacles of destruction when it's like when Steve Olson's. part with QuickSand, with David Boy, QuickSand, where it's all slow-mo, and he's just this weird stoner nerd who's just destroying everything.

And you're like, what? Like, I, like, it was so funny because I was like, what are skaters? Like, I don't understand who this group of people is. Right. There's so, like, there's so many different kinds of them. There's many ways to be a skisable. Because you watch, yeah, you watch that stuff. And then you watch, like, you know, and then you watch, like, world videos with Kareem and all these, all these guys in, like, East L.A.

And then you watch like, you know, in New York and Philadelphia. And then there's just so many. And then it's not even counting like the world. You know, like the rest of the, when you start like visiting. When you leave America. Yeah, we leave America. There's this whole, there's like whole other genres of people. There's always French dudes skating to trip hop.

Yeah. And then there's like even like a reggae phase in skateboarding, like the iPath guys. Interesting. Yeah. And like, oh, I also wanted to shout out John Cardiel for skating to Sizzla in this like trans world video. And it fits. so well. It's really cool.

It's very good. I'm going to tell you, technical's a discretion up there in my top five, maybe for music choices. Melvins? I would say technical's... Failure? Yeah, the failure song is so good.

I love that song so much. Great soundtrack. Welcome to Hell might be the best, though. It's really good. Welcome to Hell might be the best soundtrack. Well, Elisa Steamers skating to the Sundays? Bitch. Also being introduced to the world with that Sunday song.

Yeah, yeah. Like really, really, because no one had ever heard of her. Like this video was the first time anyone had ever seen anything ever. Man, I was obsessed with her. Obviously, my little young female feminist. And I was just like, there's a girl pro skater. I had such a crush on her. I wrote her a fan letter.

No, you did it. I mailed it to toy machine. And I think, like, with, and I had also been taking photo classes at school, and I, like, printed a photo. of my mom. You mailed her a photo of your mother of Su Su that you took? Yeah, she was cooking dinner. And I took a photo of my mom. And, yeah, I was just like, oh, I'll just throw this in there.

Did you ever ask her if she received it? Because obviously, you've been in touch with her sense. I did ask her, and she's like, oh, yeah, I think I saw that. And then I asked. Through it directly in the trash. No, I think Ed has it. Oh, my God. Ed is waiting to blackmailies.

It's going to show up in an art show. I'm so curious what it says. That's really sweet. You know what else was really good? Sorry, this is just a fun thing. This is like what, I mean, it's the end of the episode so we can devolve into doing this. The Geron Wilson part in Mouse

where he skates to Magic Mountain, which is such an iconic song that is for sampling. So if you hear it, you'll recognize it because it was like sampled by Portis Head and Wandering Star, and it was sampled in a couple of De La Sol songs, but it's such a cool song to skate to.

I had forgotten about that because I didn't know what that song was when I watched Mouse in 96 and now I'm like oh, okay. And actually very interesting because the Portis had album had come out in 94

and all these samples had already been done. So I'm sure like that's how this song was kind of introduced into the world was like anyways, I just, that one really struck me.

This was a really fun episode to research. I know. I did a lot of research too. Yeah. It was really nice to just like go back and kind of like because is it not fun

to watch 30 skate videos? for me it was super fun. It was fun. It was also fun to just like talk. Like I called some friends too and just asked them a lot of questions. Yeah, what did Spike Jones say? He said that. Well, he told me, like I said earlier, that Mark picked his own song, the Coltrane song,

and he picked Guy's song, the Jackson Five song. What did that ending of that? I mean, that's the other thing. I'm like, man, we used to have fun around here. Yeah. Like the fucking drinking in the car when Guy Mariano is nine years old or whatever, and then they drive the car off the cliff. Or even the mouse, when I cried.

I'm sorry, it always got me. A man in a mouse costume skateboarding. 12, 15, 18, 21, 24, 27. 30. 369. 1215. Still hits. Spike told me that, like, they made the video in six months,

and it was just the most casual thing ever. And, you know, him and Mark made the video, and they chose all the music. Do you think it was casual because there was no precedent? So it was like, like, you're really kind of, like, what are you compete? Like, you know, now you're making, you're making a company video

against the, like, annals of time. And you're like, or even, or even, like, five years later. But, like. I think, I think the no stakes aspect is very important in that time. And sort of the birth of the modern skate video is sort of, is as a direct result of these, like, very, very talented, like, artistic people that were just kind of like, like yeah let's let's make this let's just let's just with no like not thinking about that they're making

a skateboard video right not thinking about like oh we're about to make some fucking timeless choices here they just didn't they're just like well this works let's just do it like making i the sense that i got from spike was just that like making video days was just like yeah i don't know like let's let's just make something cool together right and like having no no pressure or feeling And what's so funny is, like, it ends up becoming, like, one of the most important videos. Yeah, like, they didn't think that one day, Yassi Sal, like, 43 years old, is going to watch Rudy Johnson skate to a dinosaur junior's cover of just like Heaven, like seven times in a row. Yeah, like, it's like the one.

Yeah. I mean, I talk to people, because it came up before I started skating, and I talked to people that are a little bit older and just like, and they just tell me that when that came out, it, like, changed their own. lives. Like, can you believe it? Like, they were just like, I've never seen anything like this before. And I don't know. That's not going to happen again in skating. No. Maybe in some, maybe in a new form of something else. Not in skateboard. I remember some other new shit that will, but we won't get it. Yeah, maybe. We won't get it. It's not for us. You know, just the way this wasn't for 43 year olds when it, when it came out. Maybe the next best thing will just be like, just plug into something and

just direct, like a new. memory experience will just be downloaded, and it's like the closest thing to being like, whoa, that was new. What is the politics or the manners, the decorum of choosing a song that somebody else has already used? Does that ever happen?

It feels like it must. It's happened. It's happened a few times. It's happened like famously. Does it cause beef? Tell me. I've never heard of it causing beef, but it's just like a total faux pa.

Right. It's just like what? Especially if you choose a song that is like famously. someone else's song. I think like the first example, Nottis skated to this fire hose song in the Santa Cruz video famously.

Like it's one of his most well-known part. And then this guy, Joe McClellan, skated to it in a Maple video. And I think a lot of... You skated from Maple. Yeah, and I think a lot of people were like, what the fuck? Like, you cannot use Nottis's song.

Like, what? I don't know. I don't know what the decision. Do you feel like it was like an accident? No, it was not an accident because I know who made the video and there's just no way that that was an accident. I think another weird example is Paul Rodriguez skated to the Jackson 5 song that Guy Marriana skated to.

Was he kind of trying to be like, I'm also this young prodigy? Yes, it was kind of like a nod, you know, but also like what? I'll probably pick your own song. Well, I mean, like, there is no doubt that Paul Rodriguez was a complete child prodigy. But it's just like, you're going to use guys' song. And it wasn't, I'm sure it wasn't his choice. But like, it's just like, what? Right.

That is a little bit crazy. Yeah, a little craven. Because I don't know what you're essentially saying is like you're the next guy, Mariano. Right. And it's not him. It's not him. It was not Paul. It was probably someone else.

It's someone else. It's also just like, what? Like that, I don't know about that. Because there's just two different, you know. And I'm trying to think of another, you know, the fun, that block party song that I meant, that was used four times. And that's kind of weird. It's a good song. I don't know.

That was kind of a famously like overused song during that time. That song does go hard. Damn, it was used a lot. I can't think of... There's like six different videos that this is in. I can't think of another example of when a song was... It's happened though. And I think like, I don't know, it's never really caused like a huge stir.

But I think just like to the audience who cares about it, they're just like, wait a minute, this has already been used. Do you feel like there are some songs that worked really well in the moment? like because it was 2008. But now when that video is watched in the present day, it like did not stand the test of time or like. Like definitely. Yeah. But it's hard to talk about because you like you don't really want to call out.

No, no, sure. You don't have to point to anything. I'm just curious if like that's, that's a consideration. Maybe that's part of the reason you see so much classic rock or even like now dinosaur, even to this day, maybe like Sonic Youth Dinosurigenia, because you know that it's never going to be embarrassing later. It's the safe choice. But yeah, it fits.

It's DNA-wise, it's correct, you know. Timelessness is a very, like, it's a difficult target to hit and to predict. And definitely there's, like, there are some, like, video parts that have come out in the last 20 years where the skating itself is just so, so, so mind-blowing. But the music was, it just didn't, like, it might have hit the first time you watched it. But then the more you watch it, you're just like... Must really hurt that that's like your big skate part. And like, then forever you have to be like, damn, it's associated with this, like, kind of corny song now.

I mean, the video parts that I can think of, like, yeah, that's like four years of work. Yeah. You know, so, I mean, also, and it's also subjective whether a song works or it doesn't. but like in my opinion when I like think about these video parts that I'm thinking of I'm just like ooh I'm that would be devastating and what is your favorite of your own parts just in terms of the musical pairing probably superstar the the sonic youth cover just because second half of your part and bag of sex yeah just because it I don't know it was just sort of a dream of mind to use that song and it was a like it wasn't until it was suggested to me by Matt who made the video that I was like yeah yeah

like you know because I didn't want to say it right you know what I mean because it was one of those things where it's like this song is so good that you know I was afraid like oh like I can't skate to this song and but he convinced me it was fine and I think it turned out fine but I think it turned out more than fine judging by some listicles I saw on the internet I skated to some Like, I skated to subject to change by New Order, and that was a shared part with Louis Barletta. And, like, I love that song. I think that really. It's a wonderful song.

I think it really went well with our personalities and our skating at the time. I like that you did a love and rocket song. I don't even remember what that is. Osiris. Oh, my God. Lazy. This is a song. But, yeah, I don't know.

You're like, I don't know. And Magway. Maybe your last. Oh. Was that the last one that you did? Free America Made Chapter 2 Yeah, that was the, I think that was my last video part Before the sci-fi one

Okay, well this has been A real delight, Jerry, I've had such a great time This has been extremely delightful I don't think in our 17 year friendship That I've talked this much to you about your job And I'm sorry about that But now I feel I've made up for it

We really dove deep into your your industry and your work background. I'm happy we did this dive. I am too. It made me really happy to watch that enjoy a bag of suck behind the scenes because I was like, oh, that's like right around when I met you. And I was like, oh, that's like, that's my friend. That time was fun, you know? We had fun.

And then I was like, damn, he had the coolest job in the world. Yeah. I was just drinking beers with a bunch of very random people. Getting concussions. Not that they're random, but just like, that one was like, wow, So many different kinds of skateboarders. Like in that thing? Shapes and sizes, styles.

Yeah. Okay, well, Jerry, thank you so much. This was a real treat and a delight. Come back next week for a new episode of Bansplaine. If you liked what you heard today, subscribe for more episodes of Bansplaine. Our guest today was Jerry Sue. You can find him on Instagram at Internet Famous

and find out more about sci-fi fantasy at sci-fi-fantasy.co. This episode was produced by Rob Sunderman and edited by Adrian Bridges with help from Justin Sales. Video production by Jacob Corbett and Sarah Reddy. Executive producers for Bansplaine are Gina Del Vak and me, Yossi-Sulloch. Our gorgeous and catchy theme song was composed and performed by Bethany Costantino and Jennifer Clavin and graciously recorded by Carlos Dela Garza in Los Angeles, California. Special thanks to our producer emeritus, producer Dylan, aka Dylan Tupper Rupert,

and also Sean Fennessey and Torrance, California. Come back every Thursday for a new episode of Bansplaine on Spotify wherever you listen to podcasts. They leave us alone, all alone? You worry? Call HR.