Bandsplain - The Replacements with Bob Mehr, Part 2

Episode Date: April 1, 2021

So...what happens to the Replacements? Bob Mehr returns for the rest of the band’s story, and we hear about their indelible influence on the future of rock bands and those who love ‘em. Follow Bob Mehr on Twitter at @BobMehr and find Trouble Boys: the True Story of the Replacements wherever books are sold. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's with this band anyway? I don't get it. Can you please explain? Wait, like, Bansplaine? Welcome to Bandsplane. This is part two of the replacement's epic two-part episode. I'm still here with Bob Mare. We've never left. We've been here for two weeks.

Bob, last episode, you started to hint at the band Fraying, Bob leaving. Paul feeling trapped or frustrated within the clutches of the evil music industry. Let's talk about this. When did the replacements get signed to a major label? So the replacements were signed in, well, in December of 84, they played a very famous label showcase. They'd been on the cover of the Village Voice, let it be, had been out a couple months. They were sort of cresting and very buzzed about. So they came to New York to play this showcase for a bunch of labels.

It was supposed to be a secret show at CBGBs. and of course it was a drunken mess and drove away most of the prospective labelheads who had come to see them except for Seymour Stein of Sire Records who had famously signed the Ramones and the Pretenders and all these other, all these great punk bands, Richard Hell and the Voidoids, Seymour was not scared off by the replacements and he had enough power induced to sign them. And if he hadn't, I don't know at that point, you know, if the replacements would have been signed. But he signed them, signed them to Sire, which put them in the kind of world. of Warner Brothers, which owns Sire. And they released in the fall of 1985, their first major label album, Tim.

They recorded it with Tommy Ramon, of the Ramones producing in Minneapolis. And it's a weird record in that it was mostly cut as a trio. Bob Stinson was already starting his kind of move away from the band. He came in and laid down his solos, you know, over the course of a couple days at the end of the session. And it's still a very powerful, wonderful record. And I think it does contain probably five or six of, what, Westerberg's best known songs. You know, we play Bastards of Young, Left of the Dial.

Here comes a regular swinging party and so on. But it's an album of a band that's sort of in transition but doesn't know it yet. The sort of dynamics are shifting internally, externally, they're now on this major label. And even though it's in some ways a less produced record than let it be, weirdly enough, for a major label album, It is a record that I think, you know, they were never probably satisfied with the sound of it. It's maybe not as big or powerful as records that would come. But I think it's considered, again, right alongside Let It Be is their best because the sort of strength of the songwriting and the sort of anthemic quality, the real signature songs, I think in Paul's catalog are on this record. They were so, they were so unsatisfied at the production.

Tim is Tim is also, I think, alongside Let It Be from like the replacement's fans that I commune with like kind of right up there. Like I feel like everyone's favorite album is either Let It Be or Tim. Like those are the top contenders.

Yeah and it's funny because, you know, you'd play that game of what would have been. There's a couple songs on there like Laydown Clown and Dosa Thunder that were songs that, you know, they're not top shelf material, but they were kind of written as showcases for Bob because it felt like Paul's songwriting otherwise was moving in this different direction that he didn't fit in. So they threw a couple of, you know, Bob's showcase real stomper numbers on their forum.

And I think maybe the album suffers for it because they could have put on Can't Hardly Wait, which they actually did record for the sessions. And they could have put on Nowhere's My Home, which was a song that they had demoed actually with Alex Chilton producing a few months prior. And you imagine that record with Tim, as great as it is with Can't Hardly Wait, nowhere is my home on there. It would have been, you know, I think that would have catapulted it, probably even, past let it be in terms of of, you know, just how great every song on that record is. Totally. Let's hear a clip from Dose of Thunder because I think before we go into the song

that we're going to play off of Tim, it's a really good way to hear what Bob is talking about how wildly different like the tone of this song is from like what the rest of the album is. Dose of Thunder sucks. That song sucks. The only time Dose of Thunder is good is actually on the live record that might help produce. You're right. I love every, replays him song. I love dose of thunder as well, but it's just like in comparison. Producer Dylan is screaming at me. She's like, no, I love it. It's a good song. It is a good song. But it just, it doesn't, it diminishes Tim. Yeah. And I think it comes alive on that live record from 86 because you can sort of hear how maybe it would have been more intended. I think Tim is weirdly the production mute some of some of the aspects of what was power.

about Bob in the band, but I think he was sort of on his way out anyway. So it's, you know, when you know the backstory, you're more conflicted about Tim as a record. But for me, it's, it's kind of the, it's the one that was the cassette of it was in my car and that I still have my original copy of. So it's nearest and dearest to my heart. But, but in a historical sense, I think it could have been a different record had the sort of internal politics within a replacement's been, been not so strained at the time. Yeah. And also it's interesting to point out, which producer Dylan pointed out, that dose of thunder does sound like Kiss, which they did cover Kiss also on Let It Be.

They cover Black Diamond. And Kiss is a quintessential, I mean, I guess 70s, 80s band. And that was maybe the only times the replacement sounded of their era was like songs like Dose of Thunder. Right. That's true. And in a way, I think they did cover Kisses Black Diamond. I think actually transformed it on Let It Be.

but I think the attempt on Dose of Thunder was really more attribute to one of Paul's favorite bands and one of Bob's Slade, you know, with the kind of stomping, clapping, clapping, foot stomping thing, which Kiss probably stole certain aspects of for their own, you know, kind of sound in the 70s. So yeah, there is a kind of weird,

you know, like you say, as RJ Smith very famously put it in his village voice piece, you know, this kind of the detritus of 70s, classic rock, arena rock, was present in the replacement sound. or certainly in their awareness, sometimes it was very obvious, like them covering Kisses Black Diamond,

and sometimes it's more of a sort of subtle tribute with the sort of stomping feel of dose of thunder, which is a knot to Slade. For me, I think one of the great songs in terms of showing Westerberg's evolution is something like Swing and Party. That's a song that really sounds, is inspired by a bunch of different influences

from Frank Sinatra's Where or When to Neil Young's Buffalo Springfield flying on the ground is wrong to Brian Highland. Brian Highland is the Joker's Wild. As Paul said, you know, if you steal from everything, no one can catch you or put a finger on you. And that's kind of where I think his genius lies and his ability to sort of take from different things

and make it something new and original. So I think that's best exemplified by Swinging Party off of Tim. I love Swinging Party. You're listening to a music and talk episode. What's that? It's where full songs and talk segments can live together in gorgeous harmony.

on Spotify. Do you dream of making your own music and talk show? Well, guess what? You too can create one for free with Anchor, Spotify's podcasting platform. Get started today at anchor.fm slash music and talk. That's anchor.com slash music and talk. And of course, that song, Swing and Party has kind of taken on a new life because Lord covered it a few years ago, I think on an EP or some kind of one-off thing, but naturally, I think all the Lord fans being interested in that has made Swinging Party the Replacement's most popular song on Spotify as a result. Yeah, on the Pure Heroin EP. Let's hear a little bit about that too.

Why not? If being the fate is a crime, we hang side by side. She kind of turns it into a drone, but hey, it's good for Paul's pocketbook, I guess. Totally, yeah. I think that introduced the replacements to a... a huge Gen Z audience who I'm honestly not sure of the reception. It's really interesting to me. Gen Z obviously obsessed with Nirvana.

Like Nirvana is just a band that aesthetically lore-wise just really appeals to like, I guess, teenagers forever. Like I'm interested to see when we stop having teenagers who are obsessed with this band. But I don't know that they may. the same connection with the band like the replacements, even though it's so clear that, again, no Gina Arnold, but yes, Gina Arnold, the Nirvana would never even exist without the replacements. You know, the Nirvana thing is so funny because there's a song called Nevermind on Please to Meet Me, which people want to say, oh, you know, Nirvana took that title.

And there is actually an interview with Kurt Cobain where he sort of denies having listened to or having had much of an influence from the replacements. And from a purely musical perspective, I think that's true. And I think Paul maybe once said maybe uncharitably that Nirvana sounds like Boston with a hair up its ass. So maybe there was a little bit of a sort of friction there. But, you know, I think Nirvana's roots were from a different place. You know, there's a lot more rock and a lot less role, whereas the replacements had a kind of, you know, rooting in, you know, they're from a different generation. Those guys were born, you know, in the 50s.

I think they had older siblings or Paul did anyway. So I think they kind of go back to the Chuck Berry Rolling Stone sort of lineage and thread. And yes, they detour into the sex pistols, although you could make an argument that the sex pistols are, you know, Chuck Barry influenced as well in their own way. I mean, what isn't Chuck Barry influence? But there's a, I think there's more of a through line through the kind of classic rock and roll bands and even these detours into the punk bands to the replacements. Whereas I think Nirvana, you know, they, they. draw from a slightly different well. And so they sound different, but I don't think you can argue that the world that Nirvana succeeded in and sort of exploded in a sense was not in some ways

created, certainly the music business, certainly how alternative bands are perceived, how they tour, you know, the replacements were part of that thing that established the world for Nirvana to be able to exist in. That's exactly right. And whether they actually sound like them or were influenced by them, you know, it's almost beside the point. you know, certainly the timing of it is pretty funny as the replacements break up and then the world goes gaga for Nirvana and alternative music in general, you know. I think you could even make like, again, I'm not a music critic, so I'm not going to do this eloquently. You could even make an argument that like the replacements, you know, impacted the trajectory of punk. Like while they weren't a punk band in some senses, in some senses they very much were.

Like spiritually, they were a punk band, maybe not musically. But, you know, we don't get a direct line from, like, minor threat to nirvana without the replacements coming in there and kind of squiggling up that fucking line. And if you want to look at it in terms of the world at large, you know, the mainstream world really being affected by the replacements. You know, go talk to Billy Joe from Green Day, who actually, when the replacements were reunited, he had fantasy camp. He was on stage playing extra rhythm guitar. And Billy Joe has said, you know, I was into metal. I was into Metallica. And then my sister took me to see the replacements on the pleas to meet me tour.

and I started listening to the, you know, sorry I'm on those records. And I think if you look at, you know, the first couple Green Day records, certainly they harken back to the first couple replacements records. There is a, there is a smart, intelligent, literate songwriter working in this kind of snotty punk milieu. And that's Paul Westberg and that's also Billy Joe. And you can't, you know, if you look at the success Green Day's had, it's not necessarily on the back of the replacements, but without question, there's a direct line there. So, you know, their influence, Like I say, because of the replacements, you know, they weren't the Ramones where they had this sort of 20-year sound and they weren't the sex pistols where they were sort of won and done. They lasted remarkably pretty long for a band that never had any tangible commercial success.

And because they lasted that long, they were able to sort of morph and shift and grow. And so I think they created a body of work that different artists, different types of artists and different generations of artists can tap into and draw from and be influenced from. So yeah, it's a kind of a weird thing in that their influence is not monolithic in terms of a sound or style, but it is ever present, I think, in a lot of the most important and biggest bands of the last 20 years. Definitely present in an attitude. No, that's that's that. And also a look. I mean, we haven't talked much about this, but like the replacements had a look, you know. I mean, I'm not talking when they started wearing those weird plaid suits because we can have a whole situation about that.

But, like, you know, they didn't care. They wore jeans and flannels and t-shirts. I mean, this was pre-grunge. It wasn't cool to dress like that. And I know there's a meme that's like, if you dress like this, hit me up. And I just want to put that out here. If you dress like the replacement circa 1988, 1986 or four, please holler at your girl. But, you know, that is one of those things.

And I also think that was a, the replacement story, too, there's a lot of class consciousness. involved in it. I mean, they were all mostly from lower working class backgrounds of some, you know, Paul, maybe you could sort of claim was middle class, although that was somewhat of an illusion. And, you know, he was a janitor when he formed the replacements. I mean, he was a high school dropout working as a janitor during the recession, no prospects, no nothing, but he obviously had this incredible talent. And at that point, certainly had a drive to find other people who were as desperate as him. And that's how he found the replacements. And together they made this sound. And one of the things they were not going to do, unlike some of their contemporaries or whatever may have been, you know, popular at the time, whether it was dressing up like punks or dressing up uniformly like the Ramones or dressing up like new romantics or whatever was happening in, you know, 80, 81, they dressed kind of how they dressed, which was like high school dropout jan or working class people, you know. And so that became its own kind of style and aesthetic. And then later on, of course, once they got bigger and more into the sort of world of show business, they almost made fun of it by dressing up outrageous.

wearing, you know, plaids like their parents or their dads who were golfers would wear or wearing boiler suits or mechanic suits or whatever, you know, so I think, but when they started, the whole sort of aesthetic conceit was, this is who we are, this is how we dress. And of course, much later it becomes a kind of style in and of itself. Which they couldn't stomach, of course. Like, if anything became cool, they had to shed it and become uncool because that was who they were. Right. Okay, back to the music. You know, Tim, like you mentioned, was their first major label album. I think each consequential major label album, there was always like, okay, it's about to be this one. Like, here's the song off this one. It's going to break the band. This is when it's going to

happen. So what came next? Well, what came next really was the sort of split with Bob that was formalized as they were getting ready to make pleas to meet me. And, you know, that was a pretty seismic shift. There was a point where rather than fire Bob Paul thought, well, I'll just quit the band. and then Chris and Tommy decided, well, if you quit, don't you need a bass player, don't you need a drummer? And so they wanted to really stick together and go with Paul. And so inevitably they fired Bob. They replaced him with Slim Dunlap, who was a steadying, wiser, older presence. He was a kind of journeyman guitarist in Minneapolis.

They made pleased to meet me, which was, I think, very successful creatively, thanks in part to Jim Dickinson, the producer, who made it down in Memphis. but that record didn't do, as you said, what it was what it was supposed to. I think there was always, and in some ways they were shackled and weighted down by expectations of replacements, because they were signed because Seymour Stein, Warner Brothers thought, well, this could be the next great American band, you know, the next Tom Petty and the Art Breakers or the next, you know, the American Rolling Stones. And it didn't quite happen on Tim. They were still kind of, you know, figuring things out. The sort of marketing of alternative music was still in its infancy. with Pleased to Meet Me, they tried to make a somewhat more concerted effort, but it was, of course, a little bit sort of weird.

They made that record as a three piece without Bob. Slim joined the band, they steadied, and then they went and made Don't Tell a Soul, which was probably their most all-out attempt at having a hit record, a commercially sort of successful project. Can we talk a little bit, like back up a little bit and just talk about the circumstances around Bob leaving the band, only because, like, I think, as producer Dylan has pointed out, that directly impacted a lot of songs, actually. Like, not just that he left, but why he left and how he left.

And, you know, what course Bob Stinson's life took after he left the band. Bob Stinson leaving the band, I think, was a result of largely of a kind of creative conflict. You know, when the band started, it was Paul and Bob's band. By the time they had signed to Warner Brothers, it was much more Paul's band and maybe even Tommy's band. Bob was an amazing musician, a kind of musical savant on the guitar, but he was somebody who had come through very difficult childhood. In fact, the reason the replacement started is Bob basically had gone through all kinds of abuse and difficulties ended up in the state juvenile system. He got out, was essentially saved by music. And when he got out, he saw his younger brother Tommy going down the sort of same road, getting in trouble, headed for jail, and basically put the base in Tommy's hands so that they could sort of avoid that kind of face.

together. And eventually they hooked up with Paul and Chris and the replacements were sort of born. But I don't think Bob really ever left the sort of the problems, the demons of his childhood behind. And I think when the replacements started feeling pressure, started going into this major label world of lawyers and A&R men and television shows and real expectations, it became very hard for him. And so he started to lose interest in that part of the game and lose interest in sort of being sort of set off to the side and maybe sort of not seen as the main force in the band any longer. And I think the reality was that Paul's songs were evolving maybe faster

than or in a way that Bob wasn't comfortable with. And so they kind of had to make a pretty tough decision to move on, to either break up or move on without him. And they chose the latter. And that sort of really, I think it was very difficult because Tommy had to fire his brother from the band, essentially, and sort of, it certainly damaged their relationship. And it was a pretty traumatic experience,

not just for Tommy, but I think for all of them. And so it couldn't help. You know, the replacements were never operated in a vacuum. Whatever was going on was going to impact their music. And I think Bob's departure in a psychic and spiritual way sort of colored the rest of their career in a sense. And you can hear that certainly on things like, a pleased to meet me on a song like Nevermind,

which is really kind of about, you know, their relationship with Bob to a certain extent. IOU is a kind of shedding of old ties. And you can sort of perceive that as being about Bob. So I think, you know, like everything that happened in the replacement's real life, it ended up being coming out in the music. Totally. I think like you could even say like this is an oversimplification,

but I think it kind of works. Like while Paul was like might have been addicted to failing, he was also addicted to trying. And Bob didn't even, did not want to try. Bob was happy with the level of the band that it had reached, playing, you know, being the hometown heroes, playing at First Avenue and, you know, filling the place. That's absolutely true.

And I think, you know, Bob, because of his own sort of problems, which ended up being, you know, kind of melt a health, mental health and addiction, and ultimately were the things that sort of fell to him. He died at the age of 35 in 1995, you know, know, I think he had reached a kind of limit. And in fact, being out of the replacements might have been some kind of relief to him. That at the same time, he did feel like it was his band.

And it certainly was his band in a sense. And he had helped start it. So I think there was, you know, it was an ugly and messy divorce on a lot of levels because there was family involved and friendship involved and business involved. And so it was tough. And I think, you know, in a way, the replacements maybe never got over Bob leaving the band. but I think they also felt compelled, Paul did, and I think Tommy did, to carry on, that they maybe were made of the stuff that was bigger than just being in Minneapolis or in Minnesota

or an indie band. Like they felt, you know, as much as they sort of had this, oh, we're losers and we don't try and we don't care, they really did have a sense of self that they knew they were an exceptional band, maybe not a great band. they wouldn't admit to that, but a unique one. And their power was unique. And, you know, when you're that age and you have no other prospects, you know, it was, as Paul O's always used to say, every time a record, you know, they were making a record,

well, either this one flies or it's back to the brooms, you know, the reality for them was that they needed to succeed at least on some level. And yet, you know, there was a lot of reasons why they weren't sort of suited for success either or allowed themselves for that. So it's a very complicated kind of psychological kind of thing going on there in terms of what their music was, why it reached the people it did, and why it didn't reach a whole mass of other people. Where is the behind the music? Bob, do you, can you pinpoint like a very good example of a post Bob song that we could play? So yeah, I mean, there's a lot of stuff that I think followed Bob's departure that wouldn't have happened.

I mean, there's a song like Nightclub Jitters, which is this cocktail jazz nocturn. There's a song like The Ledge off, Please to Meet Me as well. And that's, you know, that's much more a polished kind of rock and roll song. It was a kind of in the spirit of blue oyster cult. It was a kind of minor key song about teenage suicide, ultimately, which in a way was weirdly enough picked as the first single off, Please to Meet Me, and kind of the reaction to it at MTV and Radio. They got cold feet because there was a sort of rash of teen suicide. So that kind of cut the legs out from under Pleased to Meet Me.

But I think if you listen to that song or Nightclub jitters or even the version of Can't Hardly Wait on Pleased to Meet Me, it's hard to conceive of those songs existing in the form they did if Bob had been in the band. I think things just, you know, it's like making a record is sort of like a pie. You know, it's a zero-sum game. If one person isn't there, the other people have to step up more. And I think with Pleased to Meet Me and moving forward, each of the guys stepped up more so there was more of their sort of personalities,

more of their sort of tastes in the band than had been when Bob was there. And I think, you know, you start to see that unpleased to meet me and certainly going into Don't Tell a Soul as well. All right, why don't we hear The Ledge? So that was the ledge by the replacements off of 1987's, pleased to meet me. They were robbed.

That song should have been a universal smash hit. I cannot believe. But again, the dumb luck of the replacements, you know, there was just the universe did not want. to not want that song to be the single. And it was a great song. I always say the replacements made a lot of their own bad luck, but in that case, you know, releasing the first single off your sort of much anticipated second major label album and the song happens to be about teen suicide. Well, there's a rash of teen suicides. It's sort of, that's just dumb luck, bad luck, however you

want to call it, it wasn't their fault. Well, that's also not gloss over the fact that they were forced to make a video for it. And did they not refuse to be in the video? Well, they refused to lip sync or perform. So the video is just a static video of them kind of on a soundstage eating their lunch and, you know, kind of scratching their chins. And it's a very non-controversial video. But MTV, in a way that almost made it worse, you know, MTV was in the habit of rejecting videos or calling for edits if it was a crotch shot or some kind of weird, you know, pot leaf on a decal or something. They could cut that stuff out. But there was nothing in this video that they could cut out and resubmit. It was the song itself and the subject matter that was, you know,

controversial at that time. So, you know, replacements again, they just sort of, they got hit with some bad luck there where, you know, MTV rejected it, the video and stopped playing it. And then radio kind of followed suit. And, you know, who knows? You know, Westerberg always says, you know, that's not a, that the ledge wasn't really a happy go lucky pop song, you know, a song about a guy jumping off a building. But, you know, I think it did have a kind of power that would have worked at AOR radio at the time had it sort of been given an opportunity. But, you know, that didn't. happen. And what did they end up making the single? Well, they shifted pretty quickly to Alex Chilton, reused the same video footage for Alex Chilton and just played the song over it since

there was, you know, you could do that. And then Alex Chilton was something of a hit at alternative radio, which was then still in its kind of infancy. There wasn't a ton of alternative radio stations at the time. So while it was a hit on alternative radio, that didn't really mean as much. And then eventually they moved on to Can't Hardly Wait, which had some success as well. But it was sort of the thing of like the momentum that got killed off the ledge really kind of kept that record from going gold that only sold maybe, you know, a couple hundred thousand at the end. But I think it certainly showed Warner Brothers and the industry at large that, well, this band under the right circumstances could really deliver something that could connect with a mainstream

audience. And I think that's really kind of what led to and set up Don't Tell a Soul. I love Don't Tell a Soul. Nobody can tell me any differently. Don't Tell Usul is a perfect and beautiful album. So this is now like, okay, come on. Like, let's make a hit. Like, they're really like feeling the pressure. The label is probably up their ass. I think it was, that's true.

I think they were also feeling their own pressure. At this point, they'd been a band almost 10 years, nine years. And, you know, they were, you know, I don't know what people think of lifestyle they might have led. But, you know, they were still, maybe it just moved out of their parents. houses, you know, a year or two before, they were kind of still struggling, scuffling band, even though they were doing okay and didn't have to have regular jobs. They weren't like,

you know, the world was not their oyster yet. So they still needed a hit. And I think any band, it's hard to survive. It's hard to keep going if you don't have some kind of positive reinforcement. And as much press acclaims as they were getting, the record sales weren't there. So I think, don't tell us, all there was, as much as there was some label pressure, there was a lot of internal pressure. I think Paul was starting to feel the band sell-by date approaching if they didn't sort of make that next step or make that leap. So there was a sense of, you know, kind of competing forces, I think, at work on Don't Tell a Soul. And while I think it's a record that is, has a number of great songs, it's generally, it's weird because it's, again, like all replacement's dichotomies,

it's their best-selling album, but it's probably their least regarded one. People are wrong. People are wrong. Well, and I may be in the company, I think one of the things that really hurt don't tell a soul in terms of how it was received by the Old Guard fan base and sort of some critics was that it was mixed by Chris Lord Algae. It was produced by a guy named Matt Wallace,

who was an indie producer, had worked with Faith No More. And then the record label, as a kind of insurance policy, decided to hand off the record to a pro hit-making mixer in Chris Lord Algae. And so he really shaped the record in a somewhat different way than the band had intended or created, but it sort of did its job. It got them on MTV, got them on the radio to a certain extent. I'll Be You, which was the first single off the record,

was kind of a minor hit, was number 57 on the charts or something like that. And so it achieved a modicum of success, but not enough to sort of be the thing that kept the band sort of strong and moving forward. A few years ago, we went back. a couple years ago, we went back to the original tapes and had Matt Wallace complete his own mix of it. And the version we put out was part of the box that Dead Man's Poppin is called Don't Tell Us All Redo and Redux.

And I think that version of the record is a lot closer to what the replacements were intending. Now, if they'd have put that out in 1989, it probably wouldn't have been a hit or even as successful. But I think that's the record that really is more what the band sounded like. and it's much more of a logical progression from Please to Meet Me. The funny thing is, the replacements were really onto something there.

They had an indie producer and a sort of pro radio mixer. And that's the combination that Nirvana used to get Nevermind into what it became. In fact, Andy Wallace, the guy who mixed, Nevermind, was one of the people the replacements were considering to mix, don't tell a soul. So they went with Chris Lord Algae. But, you know, when we talk about the replacements being the sort of guinea pigs for how things got done in the sort of pre-Nirvana alternative era. Here's a case in point where they were onto the exact formula that made Nirvana such a big band,

but they just didn't quite execute it in the right way. I mean, it's true. I do maybe lately anyway listen to the Matt Wallace mixes more. And if this was the 12-part Ken Burns series, I would be like, okay, let's dissect. Let's listen side by side to the Matt Wallace and the album cut. This one is going to be hard. I almost feel like I have to hand it off to you, but then maybe I have to take the reins back. Because, like, there's so many good songs on here that I actually don't understand,

especially in the 80s, why they didn't hit, you know, like for a wider audience. But what song, what song do you think is the song to play off of this album, to kind of contextualize them the best? I think the version, the original Chris Lord Algae Mixed version of Albu is the one, because it's everything that went right with the record. And in some ways, you know, maybe what went wrong with this whole album in terms of, you know, its lasting reputation. So it's both the good and the bad.

So, yeah, I'll be you. That was I'll Be You by the replacements off of Don't Tell a Soul, the original version of Don't Tell a Soul released in 1989. It's so good. That's all I have to add to that. Is this song a little, I mean, all pal of Paul Westrook songs like we said are about what's happening. But you hear a little bit like, you know, hurry up, we're running in our last race. Like, it's a little bit about like, okay, this is our, this might be our last chance to make it as a band.

Yeah, I think this record is shot through with sort of allusions to the sort of predicament they found themselves in as far as being a band without a hit on a major label after three records, stuff like they're blind, you know, or even Aiken to B is full of autobiographical stuff. So, you know, I think in a way, Paul's writing, once it got to this stage, you know, he couldn't help but sort of convey his frustrations and fears in a more explicit way. And I think, you know, a lot of it had to do with feeling out of place in this industry and in this business and being judged creatively on an annual basis and being sort of, you know, discarded or the fear of being discarded by the record company or by the industry at large. So yeah, it's all in there, particularly on this record. And, you know, sometimes it's delivered in a tongue-and-cheek way and sometimes it's delivered in a pretty dark way on something like rock and roll ghost, you know. Oh, rock and roll ghost. They're blind as an interesting one.

And it actually, like, touches on something I want to talk about, which I don't even know if Will has legs. But their blind is so, like you pointed out, it's, you know, kind of a thinly veiled. They're blind, they being the critics and the audience. Like, they're blind. and they're not seeing this beauty that I'm making. But it's, you know, it's delivered in the third person. So he's talking to someone else.

The replacement songs, to me, sound so much like love songs. And yet so few of them are actually love songs. Like there's maybe, I think I can count on one hand songs that are about a woman. You know, I think he wrote more songs about his sister than he wrote about women that or love interests, which I also deeply love that little tidbit. Yeah, I mean, I think he was, I think he always said the thing with his sister. I think he always talked about Tennessee Williams, you know, being sort of inspired a lot of his characters and things were based on his sister.

I think, you know, he saw that, the women around him, you know, sometimes it was the sister, sometimes it was his wife, sometimes it was people he met on the world, women he met on the road. I think he had a real portal into kind of the feminine size. of the world and the people he met and also his own personality. I mean, it's something like Aiken to B, which sounds like it's about a woman. There's these lines thought about, not understood, she's aching to be. I think that's an autobiographical line. I think he cached a lot of his stuff in the third person or hit his stuff in a lot of the third person or switched genders. I think probably some of the most autobiographical stuff was the most heavily camouflaged, you know, in that sense.

So, yeah, so even if when you're hearing something that sounds like it's a story song or a narrative about someone else or something, some other outside situation, I think, you know, those are probably the ones that are that are most personal in a weird way. The song that I want to hear off this album, because this is my show and I get to do this, is asking me lies. This is one of my all-time favorite replacement songs, and it's one of the weirdest ones. but it's also one of the ones that to me is like so 80s, like in its sensibility. Yeah, it's funny. This is a, in some cases I really like and I particularly like the version on the Matt Wallace mix of it, but widely reviled by replacement's pure purists. Again, they are wrong. What it is is it's a really kind of poppy, dancing number that's kind of funky with some falsetto elements and stuff.

really what it was was, I think, going back to Paul's sort of 70s kind of rooting, it's a tribute to the Jackson 5 in a sense, or to the Hughes Corporation, or these kind of bubblegum R&B songs that were sort of prevalent in that era. And I think the released mix maybe sort of obscures some of that, but when you hear the Matt Wallace makes you really hear like they're going for the 70s Jackson 5 vibe. And Paul was a big Jackson 5 fan. And, you know, they've They covered, you know, ABC or, you know, and I'll be there in concerts over the years. So, so yeah, I think it's kind of one of those, again, a real, another odd anomaly in their catalog, unlike anything else they did, but yet somehow perfect, you know.

Why don't we hear it? Asking Me Lies by the Replacements, the Matt Wallace version. That was asking me lies from the replacements, don't tell a soul Redux, the version released in 2019, produced and mixed by Matt Wallace. Again, if I had all the time in the world, I would play every song. Darling one? Get out of town. That song is just the best.

But I think we need to like try to get to the, unfortunately, or fortunately, actually I'll make an argument. Fortunately, last album. I mean, there's a reason that this body of work is kind of like perfect, you know, like it ended before it got too off the rails. Yeah, and after Don't Tell a Soul, which again, sort of did the best of any of their albums, but not quite enough to sort of make the replacements feel like they had, you know, reached that sort of level of success. Paul really tried to quit the band, and he started to make a solo record, essentially,

doing demos with Scott Litt, who had come off of producing REM, and eventually it kind of morphed back into a band album. Tommy Stinson came out to the sessions in New York that Paul had been doing solo, and then they continued the sessions with the full band in Los Angeles with Scott Litt. And, you know, it's a funny record because it really is. You look at like the first record or even something like Let It Be where you got, Gary's Got a Boner, and then on All Shook Down, you have something as delicate and as exquisite and poetic as sadly beautiful.

It doesn't even seem like that could, you know, in the space of six years. It doesn't seem like that could come from the same mind or the same pen, but it but it is and so that just shows you you know kind of the the the scope or the width of of of of of creative sort of travel that paul did in that time um and you know funnily enough in some ways you know like with everything there's there's segments of replacements fans who hate this record who don't regard it at all some people love it some people see it as a real signpost for you know bands like whiskey town or uh wilco or the kind of alt-country movement of the early 90s or mid-90s, because it is a rootsier sort of replacements record. And in any case, it turned out to be the band's last album. And again, it's,

it started as a Paul Solo record became a band album. He was in pretty dire straits at this time. It's the record he made just before he got sober, which obviously shifted a lot in the replacements world. I mean, I think we have maybe undersold that they were a drinking band, that they were a band that was, you know, kind of colored by their, by their addictions to a certain extent, alcohol being chief among them. It was part of their presentation and part of their kind of, again, that myth and romance. But by the end of, you know, 10, 12 years and certainly in this record, you can hear it's like a hangover record in a sense. It's, it's the come down. It's, I think that's why it's called All Shook Down. It really is the sort of the reckoning for a band and a songwriter

that's been sort of burning it pretty hard for a decade or more. And yet there's a kind of beauty and simplicity and elegance in the songwriting too. So it's a very strange endpoint, particularly when you look back at where they started, but it's a remarkable one too. It's a little weird to me to this day that Portland wasn't on this record, or any record, I guess. Or any record, yeah. But it spiritually kind of fits with this record, you know. Absolutely.

I mean, it's really kind of on Hout and Nene, they had a song called Treatment Bound, which was originally titled The Ballad of the Replacements, which really is a kind of, you know, tongue-in-cheek look at where the band was in 1983. By the time you get to Portland, which was originally recorded in 88, it's like the sequel to Treatment Bound, except it's much darker and more painful reality of what a band is like, you know. Yeah, we touched on their drinking, but I mean, this is a great song to talk about their drinking in which their shows. were unpredictable. Could be half the time, just a complete disaster. Very bad. Not a good show. Did not even play their own songs sometimes. And this Portland song is referencing a specific show, right, in Portland.

Yeah, it was at the end of the police to Meet Me Tour. And they sort of had been going pretty hard right before that. They were playing with the young fresh fellows. And, you know, by the end of the show, I think Paul was stripped naked, swinging from a shandoline. and they had maybe not finished a single song. And so this was sort of an apology to Portland, but it really is kind of taken a look at where the band was, you know, six years down the line from treatment bound

and kind of worn out and on the verge of sort of maybe falling apart. I think we should hear Portland. That was Portland by the replacements. Never actually on an official album was initially appeared on the 1997 compilation, all for nothing, nothing for all. And then the version we just heard was from the 19, rather the 2019 box set, Dead Man's Pop. So anyways, back to All Shook Down. Yeah, I mean, it's, funnily enough, this is the record that Tommy Stinson thinks is the replacement's best record.

He said it to me and he said it many times, which is weird because he was probably, even though he was involved, he was less involved in it. And maybe it's because, you know, he can sort of view it from a distance. but I think why he likes it and why I think I like it and a lot of people like it is that it is the replacement singer-songwriter record. As I mentioned, Paul started it almost with the intention of being a solo record. It got kind of pulled back into being a band project. But I think freed of writing for the band or writing for a perception of what the replacements should sound like. I think Paul was able to go and do a lot of different things. You know, there's weird numbers on here that are very evocative.

Things like All Shook Down, which is almost like, this death rattle for the band. And then there's stuff like, sadly beautiful, which I think Paul had written maybe with the intention of having Marianne Faith will sing it or she was looking for songs at the time. And it's a really exquisite, delicate piece of work that, you know, you almost shake your head that, you know, the guy who wrote Gary's Got a Boner wrote this same song, sadly beautiful few years later. The range.

The range of this man. Yeah, the range is there and I think you know I think he's it's a difficult record I think for a lot of fans and maybe that's why there's

sort of some weird feeling about it because it is so much of a swan song, so much of a goodbye so much of a band on its last legs and yet there's a real kind of power and beauty there too even though it's not doesn't have the sort of typical

you know fuck fuck it all energy of a replacement's record it's something different And I think that's maybe why it's kind of disquieting for a lot of long-time fans. Well, then they don't deserve it. Fair enough. Should we hear Sadly Beautiful? Yeah, I think that's the track that really jumps out from All Shookdown.

It's Sadly Beautiful by the Replacements. I love that song. Speaking of sadly beautiful people, we talk to a bunch of self-proclaimed replacements mega fans. Let's hear what they had to say, Bob. What I love most about the replacements is the relatability. They're tough without being macho and they're sweet and tender at times without coming off saccharin. I think what draws me to them is that sort of like heart on your sleeve, almost self-deprecating style. They're living proof that you're not allowed to be honest because they pushed the limit to how far you can go if you're just honest all the time.

It just felt like they were guys that I knew, guys that I'd be friends with. Their antics, the music, what they were singing about it, it all felt so. familiar. The replacements sort of embody everything there is to love about rock and roll. They have a lyric in their song, swinging party where they say, if being afraid is a crime we hang side by side, it just instantly brings me back to that time. In Westerberg, you have like the ultimate street poet. You know, obviously they were on another level of songwriting in Westerberg, like a god, but he felt like a god that you could still get a beer with. And as somewhat of an aspiring singer myself, if I go with my mouth and have any sound come out, it would be the voice of Paul Westerberg.

If I could describe what listening to the replacements feels like, to me it feels like drinking, a shitty beer that's ice cold on a hot day on a patio after swimming on a lake all day. That's what listening to the replacements feels like to me. It's funny to hear, you know, kind of people expressing those sentiments about the replacements because it is, you know, when he said it's like he's like a god, but he's a god you could have a beer with. That's kind of the essence of them. The replacements are such a mass of contradictions, both as a band, as people, and as a collection of people. You know, Westerberg was solidly middle class. I'm solidly middle class grew up that way.

The rest of the guys were more working class in a sense. And I think you can hear those elements in that stew, you know, of class, of kind of self-sabotage, but also of really wanting to rise above the kind of limitations of their environment. You know, Tommy Stinson once said something about how Replacements fans, they're not losers, you know, they're the same as us. We didn't want to be complete wastrels. We aspire to something, but we didn't really understand how to get it or how to go about getting it. So it is this kind of tension of wanting something but not knowing how to get it or if you even really want to do the things, you know, you have to get it in terms of the sacrifices you have to make to the music business and the industry.

And so I think it's just it's the push and pull, the tug of war that I think affects people. And I think ultimately whenever you saw or even you hear the replacements, inherently there's something about them that makes you want to root for them. Bob, thank you so, so much for being here with me for this gorgeous two-part journey through the lore and love of the replacements. It's sadly come to a close, but I am very grateful for your time and your wisdom. Well, thank you. I can certainly say that as I started this book or as I first heard the replacements, I never thought that decades later I would be discussing them with a fellow Persian talking about the most,

midwestern Minneapolis Scandinavian band. Yeah, one day your replacement's fandom would culminate in coming on a beautiful podcast with your almost cousin and that's the pinnacle. That's the height. You've peaked

here. I'm sorry to say it. All right. What song do you want to leave our listeners with? What's our last gift, our last replacement's gift for the band's Blaine community? I think one that would sort of be symbolic that we haven't played is a song off the Tim called

Left of the Dial, which has become sort of a buzzword or, you know, kind of anthemic look back at the era that they came out of the, you know, early 80s American Indy era. But I think it actually represents so much more. And it's probably, if not his best song, certainly one of his best, kind of conjuring that really something profound about the feeling of camaraderie of that, camaraderie of that era. And, you know, the replacements weren't a band that necessarily was about sort of communal camaraderie or sort of any kind of kumbaya spirit. But I think, you know, Paul in his gentler and more tender moments really could capture that. And certainly he captured nowhere better than he does in Left of the Dial. I love it. And also because I'm the queen of this show,

after Left of the Dial, you're going to hear one of my favorites that we didn't get to play within your reach. Thanks for joining us. Come back next week for Bansplaine. If you liked what you heard today, subscribe to more episodes of Bansplaine, only on Spotify. Thank you to our expert guest, Bob Mayer, who recently won a whole-ass Grammy Award for Best Liner Notes on the four-disc box set, Dead Man's Pop, which he also co-produced. Bansplaine is a Spotify original series, produced in partnership with Spoke Media. This episode was produced and edited by Cody Hoffmackle, with help from Sharita Linsoles, Dylan Rupert, Carson McCain, and Hebron Mendez. Mixing and sound design by Will Short.

Our executive producers for spoke media are Aaliyah Tavocelian, Keith Reynolds, and Jean-Yelle Kastner. Our executive producers for Spotify are Liz Gately, Gina Delvac, and me, Yossi Selleck. Our catchy and gorgeous theme music was composed by Bethany Costantino and Jennifer Claven and graciously recorded by Carlos Delagarza. Big shout out to our Replacements Megathans for Waxing Poeckes. about the mats. They were Michael Fiore, Evan Weiss, Maggie Turner, and Jordan Jones. Special thanks to Philippa Guy Hermino, Leah Edwards, David McDonough, Dana Meyerson, and as always, the framed drawing of David Matthews I Got on Teapop, whose spirit guides this entire show.