Bandsplain - The Singles Soundtrack with Sean Fennessey

Episode Date: October 12, 2023

In addition to being a gorgeous rom com, the movie Singles also ended up preserving the Seattle music scene of the early 90’s in film amber. Cameron Crowe’s homage of vignettes to his adopted home brought together now iconic artists like Pearl Jam, Alice in Chains, Chris Cornell and Soundgarden, and Mudhoney. Whether the artists thought the project was a good idea or not varied, but the results were undeniable. To top it off, Paul Westerberg was airlifted in from Minneapolis to tie it all together and the result is one of the most undeniably important compilations of the decade. Sean Fennessey joins us this week to talk about the Singles Soundtrack. Follow Sean Fennessey on Twitter @seanfennessey Listen to the Singles Soundtrack HERE Buy tickets for the Bandsplain x 60 Songs That Explain the '90s live event in Los Angeles on 11/16 HERE Host: Yasi Salek Guest: Sean Fennessey Producer: Jesse Miller-Gordon Audio Editor: Adrian Bridges Additional Production Supervision: Justin Sayles Theme Song: Bethany Cosentino Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Learn more about the albums you love with Dissect, a music analysis podcast hosted by me, Cole Kushna, a lifelong musician. Each season of Dysect dives deep into one album, examining the music, lyrics, and meaning of one song per episode. We've covered albums by Kendrick Lamar, Tyler the creator, Frank Ocean, just to name a few, and our brand new season just launched all about Radiohead's 2007 masterpiece in rainbows. Listen to Dissect on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast, because a great art deserves more than a swipe. Guess what, you guys? Bandsplain and 60 songs that explain the 90s are teaming up for a live show. That's right. Robert Harvilla, Bobby Harvilles, also Christopher Ryan and myself will be potting in person. It is your parissocial dream come true. Thursday, November 16th at the Terrogram Ballroom in Los Angeles, California.

For a link to purchase your tickets, look in the show notes of this episode. See you there, babe. What's with this band anyway? I don't get it. Can you please explain? Wait, like, Bansplain? Hello and welcome to Bansplane. I am your host, Yossi Sallick. This is a show where I usually invite an expert guest on to help me explain a cult band or iconic artist. However, today's episode is about the soundtrack to the 1992 film Singles.

My returning guest today is my beloved boss, Mr. Sean Fennessey. You make me sound like Mussolini or something, like some sort of authoritarian. Just by using the word boss? That feels like it's your connotation that you put on the word boss. Like, are you not my boss? In what way? In like the most literal way possible in which I report to you. But am I the boss of your soul?

No. Nobody is the boss of my soul, bitch. And we all know that. You are the author of your own fate and let you be reminded of that every day. I am the captain of my ship. That's truly. Invictus. I am Invictus.

I won't be bossing you around today. We'll be communing about this artifact of our youth. We will be. Do you say communing? Yeah. Did you mean commuting? Well, I'm trying to extend it. I'm trying to show the noun inside the verb.

What's the movie where he says that you put the emphasis on the wrong syllable? Oh, I don't know, but I always say that. It's assess the window, not asses the window. You put the wrong emphasis on the wrong syllable. I think that's like a great dad joke. Yeah, it's so good. It's like Mike Myers, maybe, I think. Anyways, Sean Fantasy, welcome to the program.

Welcome back to the show. Thanks. For your second sound track appearance, third appearance, because you did do a real bandsplain also. I did. So this is not a real bandsplain is what you're saying. I think we could argue this is not a real bandsplain. I think a real bandsplain is far more involved.

I mean, so says you. I've carved out six hours for you today for the single soundtrack discussion. Three and a half times the length of the actual film. That's actually, I think, the length of Cameron Crow's first cut of singles was... Is that a fact? No, but it was like two hours and 45 minutes. I did read that. That feels a little long for a film like this.

Release the director's cut, bitch. Let's see it. Where is it? I would watch it. I'm not sure. if I need another hour on this film. I would 100%. I would watch it all day.

Well, it is a bit like a television show. So in that way, you know, it's quite episodic. Yeah. Kind of. I feel like he was, well, we'll get into it. It felt like he was trying to do like vignettes. Mm-hmm. But just, but didn't quite do that totally.

That's not a criticism. No, I think that's exactly what he was trying to do. And I don't know if you want to put any fencing around what this movie even is for anybody who might not be familiar. Yeah, I think we should, first of all, how dare you even listen to this program, if you're not familiar with the 1992 future film singles. But I had two favorite movies for like my entire youth and it was singles and reality bites. Was that because you were issued the aspirational Gen X handbook as a preteen and you signed up by watching these movies over and over again? Like how did that come to be? That's kind of a cliche.

I was just drawn to them. I mean, singles, I didn't see in the theater because I was 10. But I did see reality bites in the theater. That was 94, right? Yes. I believe we were at the same age. Yeah, so I was about 12. I mean, it was just this, these were the movies I loved.

I mean, they were, they had everything, babe. They had alternative culture. They had gorgeous little love stories. They had Ethan Hawk, one of them. What more could you really want? Were you a hawkhead as a young girl? Yeah. He was so hot.

He was a babe. He's still kind of a babe. Matt Dillon, too, honestly, although he's not particularly appealing in this film. But what else was there? It's not like your favorite movie is going to be kids. You know what I mean? I did see that in the theater, though. No, that was one of my favorite movies.

I've told this story before, but I watched that movie on one of those small screens on a bus on the way on a, like a non-school-oriented ski trip that the entire class took that was like just a debauchery fest. And so like 40 drunk 16-year-olds, like watching kids together. It was a formative experience for me. That was the first time you saw it. Yeah. And then it became, you know, the videotape was passed around the friend group. Yeah. It was observed.

I mean, you know, absolutely depraved. But exciting. What year was kids? Ninety-four-three? Yeah, 96, I think. 96. Yeah, so I was 14. I was hot in the theater, even though, like, that shouldn't have been allowed.

I must have snuck in. No, it should not have been allowed. Yeah. I didn't see this in theaters. either singles. I was too young as well. Nor reality bites. I didn't see that in theaters either. Yeah. These are formative films. Kids really formative to the point that I think I never watched it again for like the next like 20 years. I was like, I'm all set. It's quite scoring. Yeah. That was a bit harrowing for me. Okay. Yes. To orient people. Singles is a 1992 film written and

directed by Cameron Crow, a Cameron Crow joint. It was actually, I think, feel like filmed in maybe 1990, does that sound right to you? It definitely was completed in 91 and was sort of like, or maybe like early 92. It was shelved for a while. Like I think it was like, wasn't allowed to come out for a while. And it basically, the reason that it was then greenlit to come out was because of Nirvana. It's the oversimplification, but it's not far from the truth. No, that makes complete sense. I think it's a movie that feels like it is almost like a bridge to from what we like what the past of that city was and that scene and what the future was going to be yeah it feels like it was made almost like a year before kurt broke i think it was

i mean it was made and i guess we can jump around it's fine but to orient it when it was made pearl jam was a not even called pearl jam they're so called what is it mooky mooky blaylock yeah Lukey Blaylock. Legendary point guard for the Atlanta Hawks. Yes. And they were broke as hell. And obviously by time it came out, that was not the case. It's interesting that you would need to rely on a scene to get a movie made.

That doesn't really feel like how things work now. The idea of Kurt Cobain being IP, it's kind of fascinating to me. I mean, it sounds like they just didn't want that, like, they were like against it from day one. I have some choice quotes about that. I don't think they were, they wanted to be set in L.A. They were like, what is this? We didn't like, what's the point of this? We don't get this.

But then, you know, when Nirvana knocked dangerous by Michael Jackson off the number one spot in the billboard charts really changed things in a way that even Hollywood could not deny. Did it change things for you? In what way? Like the billboard? Well, I'll just say like for me personally, I was a kid who from the ages of like five to ten just worshipped my. Michael Jackson and listen to pop music all the time and a lot of R&B and a little bit of rap. But when Nirvana broke, I was like, this is my new lifestyle. It, like, completely transformed my taste.

Yeah, I guess so. I was a little bit drawn to, like, alternative-ish stuff early, but it wasn't... Like, did you listen to Jane's addiction before Nirvana came around? We were too young. But that's, that's sort of what I'm saying. Yeah. For us, they were abridged the same way they were. or a bridge for Hollywood to Greenlight this movie?

100%. I mean, for me, it was Red Hot Chilipppers first, because when Blood Sugar Sex Magic came out, I knew about that a little bit before I knew about Nevermind. Red Hot Chilpegoes was already, I think, kind of in the pop culture space in a way that Nirvana wasn't, like MTV and a babysitter is how I found out about that. And then I think I probably came to Nevermind like months later

because got started getting the MTV play. But yeah, no, those two, I think, together sort of change everything. And Dr. Dre the Chronic, which I was also listening to a bunch at 10 years old for whatever reason. It's like this and like that and like this and a it's like that and like this and a. Same. Yeah. No, that's true. I think it's underrated how much those two things are kind of connected to each other, that these were divergences from what was the mainstream and then they became the mainstream. Yeah, really fast. It's interesting, though, but like Cameron Crow did not be trusted with some.

something like this is fascinating by the studios because he had spent the last 15 years of his life basically like scene chasing as a journalist. Obviously, he had been a screenwriter and directed say anything, but famously studios have such respect and admiration for music journalists that they will entrust them with millions of dollars to make a film. Yeah, he had it, I mean, he hadn't done, it's not like he had some, you know, blockbusters under his belt. He had done that very cool thing where he like went undercover as a high school student in San Diego, which is what that that article inspired what became the script for Fast Times at Ridgemont High, which was somewhat commercially successful, right? It was like, definitely. Among among young people, a phenomenon. Why don't you get a job for Coley? What for? You need money. Oh, all I hear, some tasty waves, cool buzz, and I'm fine. And say anything, I think was a thing.

fairly big, good movie. What are your plans for the future? Spend as much time possible with Diane before she leaves. Seriously, Lloyd. I'm totally and completely serious. No, really. You mean that career? But this wasn't a teen movie, you know?

Like, it wasn't going to hit the same audience, probably. It probably did end up hitting the same audience, but there was no way that big studios could have known that that was going to happen. Well, there's something so wonderful about Cameron Crow's. film career, which I think is a little bit maligned these days because he hasn't had a hit in a long time. But those first few films are... Just like Pearl Jam. I mean, they are correlated.

And of course, Cameron did make a documentary about Pearl Jam. But they are charting stages of life. But Fast Times is high school and say anything is kind of the end of high school and entering adulthood. And singles is, okay, you're an adult now. What are you going to do? and Jerry McGuire is, okay, you're pushing 40, don't fuck this up. Make sure you make a sustainable life. And then almost famous is, man, I'm getting to be close to 50.

What was my life really about? Totally. Let me think back about when I was a kid. Yeah. And then from there, kind of like, you know, Vanilla Sky is like a midlife crisis movie. And then it starts to, like, it gets a bit redundant and repetitive with Elizabeth Town and some of that other stuff. But I was loved that he had this kind of unadorned approach to just charting his own life through the characters that he created in his movies. And this totally feels like a movie about a guy who's like, all right, I'm 26.

I got a job. It's a good job. Is it good enough? Am I happy? Do I need a partner? Where do I find a partner? You know, it's a perfect little portal into that time in your life. Does it not blow you away that they're like 26?

Well, Campbell Scott, my wife pointed this out last night when we were rewatching it. She was just like, he's 50. Like, he's been 50 for 30 years. What an interesting actor and career that, like, he was so big for a really short-ne? amount of time and then just like sort of didn't endure. He's like a legacy. He's a nepo baby, right? Isn't he, isn't his, his father is George C. Scott, one of the greatest actors in Hollywood history, one of my favorite actors. And Campbell Scott could not be further as an actor from his father. I broke up with someone recently. Jennifer, my last girlfriend. I did it in a crowded

restaurant. She just stared at me with that look. How can you pass me up? I told her we weren't right and all the stuff we both knew. He's a great actor. though. He's very talented and he's like, it's weird because George C. Scott was this kind of like

strong-willed, almost like he had a melancholic rage about him. He would like pop off at any moment but there was a real sadness underneath all his anger. Have a yellow bastard sitting here crying in front of these brave men

who've been wounded in battle. Shut on! And Cameron Crow is like a... Campbell Scott. Sorry, Campbell Scott. Campbell Scott is still as like a lakefront. You know what I mean, he is just even and quiet, and tall and handsome.

Very handsome. And bland looking in the good way, you know, in the movie star way. And so it's, I've always sounded odd that that was his dad. It's almost like he rejected his father's performance style. Because even in this movie, he's like, he's kind of a mannequin. Like, you mean he doesn't emote? Yeah, he's like a mannequin to, like hang other people's feelings on. Interesting.

I mean, I guess he is the like, for lack of a better word, the straight man. But he's Cameron Crow, right? He's Cameron Crow, like you said, like every every Cameron Crow character is the same where they're like this sort of like willful idealist. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Because that's probably how he sees himself, you know? Yeah, I had read that they didn't get along very well.

Oh, great. We have some, I have some goss. Some details about that? I have some goss and tea. Well, let's, let me take you from the top of a little paint the picture. Can I ask you one more question? I know I always do this when I come on the show. I push you off your track.

But you loved it when you were a kid, but do you still love it? I still love it. Even today, it was just what I, yeah, I watch it quite often. I probably watch it like once a year. I have this with music too. You know, I have a refined enough taste to recognize that it's not like a great film under the whatever you would use to measure that. but I love it so much.

It hits the points for me, you know? Like the thing I was saying about the vignettes, like that wasn't totally successful, right? But I don't care, you know? Yeah, I feel similarly. I think of the like big four of the films that he directed, it is the least accomplished. But there's something nostalgic and sincere about it.

And part of the, I'm sure much of what we'll be talking about, the music is just magnificent. I mean, it is like an incredible snapshot of, a period in American rock and roll that is awesome. And not just American rock and roll of like his time. We've talked about this probably a little bit, and I don't know because I can't experience life outside of my own mind. But I love the 90s, not just because of the cultural parts of it, but obviously those

are very near and dear to my heart. But I think because because I was a kid for a lot of it, it feels safe and people. pure in a way that I can't access anymore. And I feel safe and pure what I'm like indulging in the media of it as well. Part of the reason that's aging a little bit complicated way for me is I'm like I identify with what you just described. And when I watched it when I was a kid, it felt very aspirational. I thought all the characters were really cool.

Totally. And not just cool because they had like a good haircut or drove a cool car or whatever, but because they were independent, had their own lives, their own taste, they owned records. Like, they had things that I was like, I will do those things. And now I look back at those characters and I'm like, these people are lost. They're pretty much unsuccessful in their life. They make a lot of bad decisions. You know, I'm in dad mode now, you know, and I'm like, this is no way to lead your life.

This is pathetic. So you're a cop now? No, not quite, but maybe like maybe an emotional cop. But isn't that the point? I mean, that's the point, right? I think so, yeah. Useful folly. But, I mean, if you compare to 26-year-olds now, though, these people are mature adults.

The way they're thinking about things, the way they're talking about things, it's just different. It's also everything was different. You know, when I was watching it today, I was like really struck by the thing where I was like, oh, man, like, there's a sense of endless options that the Internet brought about that has completely colored people's. ways of connecting and their impetus to connect and the amount of effort they'll put into connecting that's completely not present in this. You know, like you feel this genuine sense of desire to connect in a way that I don't see in the world anymore. I mean, of course we are all humans that want to connect, but it's just, it's been sort of watered down or mutated by this thing of like dating apps and internet and stuff. Yeah. I think in some ways I'm an odd guest for this episode because I'm

married to my high school sweetheart. And so I did not have any dating experiences as an adult person. You were never singles. I was never singles. After college, I, you know, my girlfriend and I were just stayed together and got married. Yeah. And so on the one hand, like some of the story beats are not unfamiliar to me. I'm not a sociopath. Like I know what I have a lot of friends who've been dating, but the emotional core of the movie is a little bit, is not relatable to me. But I think what you just said is right, because there's like a desperation to not miss the one, the moment, because you don't have this idea of limitless options because you can't swipe

right in this universe. And it does make the stakes feel really high for these characters in a way that I wonder if you're 18 and you watch this movie, you might just be like, I don't know what this is. Well, the gag is the stakes are just as high still. It's just people don't see it. So, like, they are, once again, becoming enemies of their own happiness by being deluded by this, like, fantasy that there's always going to be more. But there's not always going to be more. This is the second time today, first recorded conversation we're having in which you use the phrase, enemy of our own happiness.

That's right. So something is rattling around in your mind, Yassie. That's right. I'm working through stuff as always, as I always am. Okay, so in March of 1990, Andrew Wood of Mother Lovebone dies of a heroin overdose. This is an important part of our story. Very tragic. Great band, Mother Love Bone.

Cameron Crow was already living in Seattle. He had moved there in 1986 because his girlfriend, Nancy Wilson, of Hart, lived there. And she was in the music scene, obviously. and also they were their publicist. Kelly Curtis was Mother Lovebone's manager. So he was already kind of like thrust into this scene of people that were Mother Lovebone and adjacent. So this was sort of his social circle. So just interesting side note because I love this stuff.

Besides singles coming in a way directly from the event of the death of Andrew Wood, so too did Temple of the Dog because Stone Gossard and JepaMent obviously were in Mother. Lovebone and Chris Cornell was Andrew Wood's roommate. Soundgarden, of course, had existed since 1984 and had already put out, I think they had already put out their major label album, right? It was louder than love came out in 89 on A&M. So they were existing, but they sort of got together to like work through their grief and record some songs that Andrew Wood had already been working on with Mike McCready and Matt

Cameron from Soundgarden and one Edward Vetter who had just moved. moved from San Diego. And they called themselves Temple of the Dog, which is a lyric of Andrew Woods. Great band. Would you say louder than love was the first Grunge album? Would you say it was Temple of the Dog? Hmm. Well, guess what?

They're both fucking wrong answers. Okay, what is the right answer? It's Come On Down by Green River, which came out in 1984. Yeah, I've heard that theory proffered before. I have my doubts about that one, but. It's definitely the beginning of a situation. Also, very famously, didn't Green River break up because they played a show with Jane's addiction and were like so moved by what Jane's addiction was doing that they went and

sort of like reconfigured. That also is the theory that I've heard of spouse. This is complicated though because like I was kind of hoping we would do a little bit of an etymological grunge analysis here because. Didn't you know where you were coming? coming today. I did. Part of the reason why I was so excited to do this with you, honestly,

because where else will I have this conversation to my life at the stage? I can either call Harvilla or I can pod with you. Totally. I think if you look at the tonality and the voices on this soundtrack and the variation of the artists who were defined as grunge, like there's just the mean is confusing. I don't know who is the midpoint. I guess maybe Pearl Jam is the midpoint in terms of the sound,

but this is a very, very, very, very heavy. collection of artists. And I don't think that that's necessarily how people think of grunge now. I think they think of sadness. They think of Kurt Cobain's sweater when they hear grunge. They don't think of like metal. This is kind of a metal record in some ways. Well, a lot of grunge emerge from metal and punk and, you know, it had a lot of inputs.

And Temple of the Dog is, you know, kind of, you know, metal balladry. But Mother Lovebone is not. They're like, Mother Libon is almost like Elton John at times. And, you know, it's a little glam. Hair rock. It's a little glam. Yeah. I mean, Allison Jane was like straight up like a hair metal band that just sort of like,

do to do. Yeah. But they went down the ladder like into hell's pit. I mean, they're, you know, we'll talk about it. I'll talk about it. I'll talk about it. I also rewatched hype to prep for this. Yeah, the Doug Prey documentary.

Yeah, that was helpful. I haven't seen that in a very long time. It's a little long. It could have benefited from. stronger editing, but it's good. I mean, it's such like a, it's such an interesting slice of, like you get some Eddie and Eddie Vedder's in it as a talking head, which is very interesting. We have something he rarely does. Yeah. And you can, you can see how like he's so not comfortable on camera. And he makes

a really funny joke where he's like, it's not even a joke. He's talking about how like there's a sense of humor pervasive in Pacific Northwest and Seattle. And like, and he's like, You can tell that I'm not from here. Basically, I mean, like, I'm not funny. That's his whole persona, right? Is the interloper, the self-serious interloper into this scene. I mean, yeah, but he has those cheekbones so you can do it every he wants. I love Ed.

You won't hear me say a bad word about it. He's my guy. He seems truly like the, he truly does seem like the best person alive. There's just nothing but good emanating from those cheekbones. So at the, there was like a sort of like an impromptu week after Andrew Wood died. and Cameron Crow was there with Nancy Wilson and he said it was the first real feeling of what it was like to have a hometown.

Everybody pulling together for some people they really loved. It made me want to do singles as a love letter to the community that I was really moved by. That's nice. I mean, that is sort of what the movie is about, but not necessarily in full. No, I mean, but a lot of the movie is about connection and not just romantic connection, right?

I mean, that's, like, I think, the whole gist of the singles apartment building where they're all friends and they all sort of lean on each other. And there's a sense of community there. And I, you know, I can see where he was going with it. He also says elsewhere that he was wanting to make, like, a Manhattan-esque ode to Seattle. Woody Allen's Manhattan? Like the film Manhattan. It's funny.

The filmmaker that I think of with this one, is Billy Wilder, who I know is a huge influence on Cameron Crow. And it feels a little bit more like the fortune cookie or like the apartment or those movies that he was making that were kind of like a daffy comedies that had deep emotional themes. Yeah. And that's kind of Cameron Crow's thing, right? It's like he makes pretty funny movies about really serious stuff.

Right. Good balance. Yeah. Manhattan. Wow, that's a loaded influence these days. Which one is Manhattan? It's the one where he's in love with like the 14 year old. Yeah.

I think she's like 16 or 17, but yeah. Was it Ali Sheedy? I can't remember. I haven't seen that movie in many years. Mariel Hemingway. Mariel Hemingway. And it's black and white. Right. Yeah, I haven't seen it a long time. It's a tricky text in 2023. Sure.

Second time we've talked about tricky texts today. Well, that single's not tricky text, so we don't have to worry about that. He wrote this also. He wrote like an op-ed about his own film in Rolling Stone after it came out. And he said, I was 32 at the time and I felt a part of something. Somewhere around midnight, warming over a barbecue pit, I felt rocked by the whole experience. I'd been working pretty steadily since I was 15. Looking back, most of my friends were made through work.

They were acquaintances more than friends. And here were these disconnected single people, many from broken homes, many meeting each other for the first time, forming their own family. He said I didn't have any friends. Gosh, do I have friends? A lot of my friends I've met through the worlds of work. Do you have deep and sincere friends that are outside entirely from your professional experiences? Of course you do. Yeah.

I do, but I always try to make my friendships my professional lifestyle and vice versa, you know? Sure. I mean, I can tell that when you listen to the pods that I'm on, but that's a thing I've gone for. I think it's a little different when you do the kind of work we do, probably. I don't know. I mean, it's not that a lot of my closest friends are like musicians or maybe work in parts of music. or adjacent to music. So I guess they're not totally outside

of my professional experience. Well, I feel like, you know, we are not Cameron Crow, obviously, but I feel like he's had a similar journey professionally that we did. Obviously, he's had an extraordinary success. But, like, kid who fell in love with music, started writing for a magazine,

got into the world, fell in love with the rock star, got married to her, started making movies. Like, he's been surrounded by people who all are working, putting their passions into their professional lives. So it's interesting to imagine him feeling like more alone than he realized. Well, I guess it kind of, I mean, it does make a little bit of sense to me.

Like music journalism is exactly community based and neither is filmmaking. I mean, you do make a film with a community, but, you know, when you're the director. Yeah, but like a music scene is a scene. Like, you're, that's family, you know. That's true. That's true. Making a movie, people always describe it as like being in the circus, you know. Right.

Circus comes to town, you all get together and hang out, and then it moves on. Or like camp. Right. He had started singles like nine years prior, though. I don't know if it was originally set in Seattle. I couldn't find any information about that. But he basically took that and reworked it to sort of be more reflective of this music community and this whole Seattle thing. He does say in another interview that he thinks that it's the least successful movie he's ever made.

Creatively? Yeah. Like I told you, he said it was meant to be Manhattan set in Seattle. I would argue that we bought a zoo is less successful. This was in 2000, so he did not know that he would go on to make a less successful film. I see. Yeah. So he couldn't have had the foresight to know about We Bada Zoo, which a film I have not seen.

But I take your word for it. You know, it's just it's not my favorite. It's not my favorite. I think Aloha is underrated, but that's not a whole other conversation. I haven't seen that one either. I actually haven't even seen Vanilla Sky. Now that is a head trip. That is a, and a very good music movie.

That's Tom Cruise and Cameron Diaz. Yes, and Penelope Cruz as well. I'm a huge defender. I think it's a really interesting. Is it a maligned film? It's a very polarizing movie. It's a very outside of Cameron Crow's comfort zone as a storyteller. Is it kind of sci-fi or something?

It's a little bit sci-fi. It's a little bit of a kind of a head trip movie, a little bit Kafka-esque. Okay. I like that. And there has some kind of scary horror elements to it. It has some high-key emotional stuff that maybe doesn't click for people. Did he write it also or just directed it? He wrote and directed it.

It's based on a Spanish film called Abre Los Olhos that Penelope Cruz also was the star of. It also is very much a film about Tom Cruise going through the insanity of being famous and is like perfectly paired with eyes wide shut. I highly recommend it. Okay. I'll do a twofer. And it's like REM, Radiohead, a lot of Red House painters on the soundtrack. I love Red House painters. Jeff Buckley, like Chemical Brothers.

Like, it's really good. We used to be a proper country where movies had good music in them. Cameron Crow's movies always have good music. I know. Because he was a music writer. He's one of us. Okay. Let's talk a little bit about the movie before we get into the soundtrack.

You mentioned Campbell Scott and him not getting along. A thing that really sent me that I thought was for some reason very funny was, so Campbell Scott had just finished filming Dying Young with Julia Roberts. in which I believe he has leukemia, and he had to, like, shave his hair off. But then he didn't shave his hair off. He wore a bald cap, I guess. But then still his hair was very short and he was very pale and thin. The studios did not like it.

And they kept being like, you should replace him. He looks very ill. And so at one point, I think they try a wig. And that it just does not work out at all. Campbell Scott, I think because of this, is growing like increasingly more uncomfortable. And this comes out in a way of him making very hostile jokes all the time. And this one day does blow up on set. And he screams at Cameron Crow, flips off a camera assistant, feels not understood.

but then they they sort of buried the hatchet and then his hair grows in just enough for the studio to be like, okay, it's fine, he can stay. So you're saying he did channel his father ultimately? Yes, just off screen simply in the way that he screamed at the director.

Matt Dillon did wear a wig. Did you know this? That's a wig. I'm not surprised to hear this. I think I didn't. It was a good wig, I must say. I really was like, damn, Matt Dillon spent some time growing his hair out.

That's crazy. Yeah. I feel like it's easier to get away with a wig that is that length. Yeah. Instead of like a sort of, it always looks like a bit of a toupee. It's like a short wig. Yeah. Like if you try to do my hair with a wig, it would be like,

yeah, that looks kind of fake. Yeah. Was it, did you also ever hear that this part, Cliff Poncea, was meant to be played by Chris Cornell originally? I have. And I mean, you know, in some ways, very modeled on Chris Cornell, right? Looks wise for sure. Yeah.

Yeah. Obviously, Chris Cornell, very soul. full-fuel figure, Cliff kind of a dip shit. But, you know. Yeah, you can't really picture Chris Cornell saying any of the things that Cliff Poncier says. Chris Cornell is briefly, does it briefly have a cameo in the movie as himself. And he, even within those like 45 seconds where I think he says one word, he seems so uncomfortable that you were like this would never have worked with him acting at all. So he was such a goofball part, you know.

And I'll love and respect to Matt Dillon. It's not like Matt Dillon's the world's best actor either. but like it worked. Yeah, I think it needed a comic performance. I think Matt Dillon is like maybe a little underrated as a comic actor because he started out as this kind of like heartthrobby guy in these Francis Ford Coppola movies. But, you know, is there something about Mary actually the movie he's most famous for at this point? Probably is. And he's so funny in that movie.

He's incredible. These damn Nepalese coins. Look, I'm sorry to bother you again, but you got a change of a dollar? No. All I got of these damn Nepalese coins. He's interviewed in Entertainment Weekly that year, and he said, that Northwest thing, it's a real mood. Sure.

That's kind of like Cliff giving me interview in the club, you know, when he's being asked about the meaning of Touch Me I'm Dick. Well, I think Touch Me, I'm Dick, in essence, speaks for itself, you know. I think that's, you know, that's basically what the song is, bad is bad you know you know a lot of people think that it's very literal that it's like I'm dick and I'm asking someone to touch me

but it also it means the other thing both meanings you never said you what are you talking about it's a brilliant piece of I assume that was in the script and not ad-libbed but it's just a brilliant piece of who would know better than Cameron Crow about the dumb shit

the musicians say when being asked about their songs also so genius to touch me I'm dick you know obviously a play on Touch Me I'm Sick by Mud Honey. He also read it this one, Cameron Crow said, Matt Dillon kept saying, I like the script, but have you seen my movies? I'm kind of the star of my movies. Did he say that?

That's what Cameron Crow said, he said, to Entertainment Weekly. And Cameron Crow was like, so I told him it's a role Jack Nicholson might have done, like, in terms of endearment. And he said, I don't know. That's amazing. I mean, it's true. It isn't a movie that really has main characters, but if you were to identify the main characters, it probably is Kira Sedrick and Campbell Scott, just because they have the most prominent storyline. Yeah, I mean, I'm looking at all of the films that he made before singles, and I don't think he had a single supporting role in any of these big films.

With that face, babe? No, I know. He's a beautiful man. Those cheekbones. Matt Dillon said, then I met Pearl Jam, and that's so. sold me. I thought, okay, I know where I'm going. These guys are cool. Hell yeah. Absolutely. That's right. He was like Stone Gossard. Sick. He actually wore Jeff immense clothes through

like Pearl Jam gave their own clothes for the wardrobe for these people to wear. Yeah. There's something very authenticated about Citizen Dick. You definitely, you buy it. Yeah. Citizen Dick. It's so good. The studio did not like it. it, they came back and apparently said, Matt Dillon looks like Manson. What are you doing to that handsome young man? They didn't like his, he does not look like Manson. He just looks like a gorgeous man of long hair.

But again, I bring this up to, we are in a post-Alternative culture world, where alternative culture is absolutely 100% mainstream culture. There is literally no getting, it is just culture. But this was not the case in 1991. And a heart-throbby actor having like sort of scuzzy longed hair and like a little chin goate and you know flavor saver if you will that had the studios being like what are this is ugly like why are you making him ugly yeah just fast forward

like two years from this point out you know and it's like Brad Pitt will be attempting to look like this while also being Brad Pitt in mainstream movies about serial killers so you know it was a great California California you like that one I just see Brad Pitt is so good-looking man. He is. He's an attractive man. He's an attractive. A handsome man.

And I just throw you off your game? Wow, you just spun out a little bit there. He was really particularly hot in that movie. I was just imagining. When he was murdering people? Yeah. Well, you know, there's something limited and all about murder as, you know, penetrative. I learned so much about you listening to this show.

So much more than you wish that you didn't know. And yet, here we are. I think that's probably all with all the listeners think, too. they're like, no, there she go. There she go. I'm saying shit again. Mookie Blaycock. Blaylock.

Blaylock. Is this not Blakelok? Not Blaycock. Jesus H. Christ. Come on. Yasi, you got Brad Pitt on the mind. I literally haven't written down this way. You're right.

It's Blaylock. I don't know why. Well, listen, Freudian. Uh-huh. They were literally still called that. Okay. So anyways, one of the first things they'd do after rehearsal as they go to see

Muky Blaylock and Allison Chains play a show together at the off ramp and the whole cast meets each other at this show and like has beers and I think I read that Campbell Scott and Matt Dillon slam danced. Trying to picture Campbell Scott slam dancing. I'm not sure I can see it. I know.

But how cool that you could just go to a club in Seattle and see Allison Chains and Pearl Jam and what is this 1991? What year are we talking? Yes, I believe it was 1991. That would be fun. You know, like this scene obviously is like over exposed, overcovered. Like there's a world of mythology around this era of rock music, but also things like that were happening. And it wasn't just them. I mean, you get, you really see it when you, if you watch hype. It's like it was them in 400 other bands who like you don't hear about anymore and who actually many of did end up getting signed to major labels because of the whole gold rush.

But like you literally like never like seaweed babe. Seed's an amazing man. But like you don't hear people talk about seaweed. You don't. You know, I was thinking also that when you were asking me the first grunge album question, I think I always assumed it was the first mud honey record that that was the one that was actually marked the beginning of something.

Yeah. I don't know. I just like I feel like there's no way to answer this question with any sort of definitive. Like maybe like if you ask like Chuck Klauserman or something like maybe he gets to aside. Or maybe when I'm thinking of a super fuzz Big Muff, the EP. That was the one that I feel like. I feel like Kurt would say that. That was their first

sub-pop release, right? Yeah. I still think you could make the argument for Green River. I mean, you could make the argument for Jane's Addiction. There's a lot of arguments you can make here. Jane's addiction's more alternative music than I think it ever was grunge, though. Do you think of you, are you parochial about grunge?

Like, does it have to be a Seattle sound thing? No. I don't even think the term for the genre is very accurate or like specific. No, it's just catchy. It's good. It's like a culture. It's more of a cultural thing than it is like a musical genre. Yeah.

It is one that died out really fast, which is sort of interesting. It did. Although, although. It's back. I mean, the Olivia Rodrigo thing is so profound to me. The way that those records are mixed relative to a way a lot of these records sound is crazy to me. Yeah. Except for the vocal.

production. That's the one thing I can't get past the Olivia Rodriguez album. And I, I like it. And I, I'm too old so I can, it's, it's just a bag of influences for me, which is why it's not for me, you know, but the songs are good. It's just, I hate that vocal production, which they do to every single female pop singer alive now. Why do they do that? I can't stand it. I don't know. I mean, I'm not crazy about it either, but I really like, I like her vocal tone. Like I like her singing voice. And, um, that's why I'd like to hear it not like that. I'm just truly amazing. You know, there's like a lot of other bands, too,

that, like, come in the aftermath of these bands that we're talking about on this soundtrack. You know, like, I hear this, the way that those garbage records sound, it's like, it sounds exactly like the Butch Vig mixing on so many records in the 90s that it's like mind-blowing to me. Being the drummer of garbage.

Right, right, of course. Yeah. Contribute to that. But also, like, a female affronted band that had kind of like scratchy, edgy guitars that were way up in the mix. And it just, it's, it's, it's, fascinating that, like, it is kind of resonating. Even this music is still kind of has a place

right now. Yeah. You really do get the sense, though, again, when you watch hype, that you realize that all the bands in Seattle did not sound like this. Like, there were so many different kinds of, I mean, the super suckers don't sound like this. You know what I mean? Like, the fastbacks don't sound like this. The posies didn't sound like this, you know? But young fresh fellows who were probably the first Seattle band to make it didn't sound anything like that. It's a pop band, basically. It just felt like it was an outgrowth of like, Like, there was a logical progression of what happens after Guns and Roses in mainstream rock and roll.

And like, this was the closest that the American ear could accept. Don't get me started, though, because you know Guns and Roses is firmly rooted in punk music. And they're actually a really good band that has very authentic roots as opposed to, like, a Maltly Crew or something. I have issued no criticisms of Guns and Roses. I'm just simply saying that it makes. It makes a lot of sense. Also, given Duff McCagan. Seattle resident, yes, of course.

being in the fastbacks briefly, I think. I don't know if he was in the fast as we played with him, but he was definitely in the farts with a Z. Many, many punk bands. But you're making my point for me. My point is that like Guns and Roses is the biggest rock band in America. The American expectation of what comes next has to be something that is actually connected to that, not not connected to that. Right.

And it is really exceptional that Nirvana was the biggest because if you think about what you just said a little bit, earlier about the metal of it all. Nirvana is not that, right? They're heavy sounding just tonally, but the actual structure of the music is so not that. It's it's R&B based pop rock music. Yeah, beetles. Yeah. Yeah, sludge, you know? Yeah, Beatles with all that distortion on it. Yeah. Whereas like Allison Chain Soundgarden, that's, that's metal. You know, they're doing something. That's like also like Led Zeppelin-E and like they're doing something like different. But that's what's so interesting about this movie is that this movie is that this movie is not Nirvana. This movie is the metal side of grunge.

Well, I think they wanted Nirvana. They couldn't get them and we'll get there. But I learned that Matt Dillon, big replacements in The Clash fan, because he was always listening to that in his trailer, that made me be like, damn, Matt Dillon, cool as hell. That's great. Yeah. I mean, he was in a bunch of movies in the late 70s and early 80s that are kind of like the punk rock teenage rebellion of movies. Yeah. I need to make like a coffee tablebook of like film stills of Matt Dillon wearing cool band t-shirts. You know, like a beautiful. girls he's wearing that Husker Doe t-shirt. Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

Is that Dylan smart? I don't know. I don't know him personally. It's not giving in his film, like in the characters he plays, but that's probably not who he is in real life. Okay. I just feel like over the edge, the outsiders, Rumblefish drugstore cowboy. Mm-hmm.

Those are some punk movies. Hell yeah. The outsiders. One of my favorite movies of all time. Yeah. That movie's amazing. Okay. Cameron Crow kept a diary during making singles.

One day, Mark Arm brought Sonic Youth to set. Eric Stoltz has a cameo. There's a lot of cameos in this film, which we can get into. Eric Stoltz is the mime when they pull over to find the club to go. When I rewatched it, I wasn't sure if it was him because looking at him, we don't see that shock of red hair. Yeah, he can't tell us that. But then as soon as he starts talking, you're like, that's Eric Stoltz. When he starts screaming about how love is, you know, the bitter mime, the bitter talkative mime.

The only time he was ever more annoying is in. Pulp Fiction when Travolta kicked down the door and he's looking for the adrenaline shot and he's like, I don't know. Stop bothering me. You know, like I can't get Stoltz's screaming that at Rosanna Arcad out of my head. It's like a text book to give the nurses. I never saw no medical book. Trust me, I have one. Well, it was so important why you can keep with a shot. I don't know. Stop bothering me. I always feel like Eric Stolt was if James Spader was annoying. Do you know what I mean?

Like, I got them confused and it's like that's the two sides. This movie does really remind me of it. Okay, it has one of my favorite things, which is breaking the fourth wall. I love breaking the fourth wall. I just love it. And it's used really randomly. Inconsistently. Inconsistently.

Yes, fine. And again, I'll give that to you. But I still fucking love it. I think only two of the characters do it. I think it's only Campbell, Scott, and Matt Dillon. I don't remember anyone else doing it. Kira Sedgwick has narration. Yeah.

that effectively operates as fourth wall breaking because otherwise who is she talking to? Is it just herself? It's unclear. But that's part of what is inconsistent to me about it. It's sort of like what is this supposed to be San Francisco tale style, like the life inside. Was it Armistide Moppin? Is that his stories? You know, like we go into these little little cubby holes of people's lives and then we pull back out and then we go to another apartment.

Like I feel is very inspired by that too. Well, I think he said later, he's like, oh, Pulp Fiction showed me how I could have done it. And I wish I had done it that way, like the vignette way, you know. Yeah. Oh, Tales of the City is the Armistead Mopin thing that I'm thinking of. But yeah, I think that would have, if he could have time shifted the way that the stories are told, that also would have been interesting, you know? Yeah. If, like, we saw the way that Dylan and Bridget Fonda's characters turned out before we even saw what happened with Kira Sedgwick and Campbell Scott's characters, that might have given them film a little bit more, like, dramatic urgency.

I guess I like it because, okay, so it does, it reminds me of Hal Hartley movies, which I feel have a similar vibe in which they feel like a play in which the same way that plays don't feel smoothly consistent throughout. It is a bit jarring when scenes change and stuff like that. I really like that. And I like when dialogue is written like it would be in a play. Hal Hartley movies are definitely inspired by that. I mean, definitely, like he has talked about that, that sort of theater. theatrical mode is something he's going for. And in the performance style of his actors,

I fucking love Hal Hartley. So cool to hear you. I just give me a shot. Oh my favorite. It's my favorite film maker. He is the best. You know, I'm a Long Islander.

And so he is, he is like, he is my soul come to life in a lot of ways where I'm like, if I ever tried to be an artist, I would have tried to be like Hal Hartley. But Cameron Crow is way more of a humanist, you know, or not,

I don't, I don't, way more of like a naturalist, you know, in terms of what he's looking for. I'm going to say this and I mean it nicely. He's way more. gen pop easy to understand version. He's doing a similar thing, though. He's trying to talk about big

ideas. And so is Hal Hartley. Like, Hal Hartley's movies to me are like walk and talk movies, except they're placed within a sort of fantastical plot line. Which I walk and talk movies are my favorite kinds of movies. But then the Hal Hartley version, again, they're like, but there's also a murder. Because they have this like new wave, or not new wave. Totally. Yeah, new wave. Yeah. I always think of them as like if David Lynch was making episodes of friends that's what hell Harley movies are yes yeah it's just like it's this mix of things that's so interesting and the mime made me think of the new wave thing because it the mime is sort of that element too like that's true Cameron crow was trying to do a bit of that here and like it's just he's more earnest and it's the big ideas he's talking about are simpler yeah I think they're

both probably really influenced by and forgive the absolute pretension of the but like Godard and Truffaut and kind of like breaking the conventions of what you would get in a movie. You know, like if you watch Godar movies between 1960 and 1968, there are all these big, weighty idea movies, but they're kind of goofy and they'll have crazy jump cuts and it's, at times hard to follow them. And the plot is kind of secondary. The plot is very secondary in singles, you know. Because it's not a, there isn't about a story.

It's about human interaction and it's about the idea of connection, right? and like, do we need it? Do we not need it? How can we get it? Can we get it from other places besides romance? What do we need to do to get it? You know, these are all handled by the dialogue and the scenes. But yeah, it's not the story itself isn't that important.

Let me ask you this. Do we need it? What, a plot? No connection. Oh, absolutely, of course. Literally our purpose on Earth. Is it? I think so.

Wow. Here I have a couple. I'm just dropping mind gems here. Yeah, I mean, I have a couple of thoughts, but I think a main one is that you can't, you can only self-actualize so far on your own. You need friction. You need to rub up against someone else. And I mean that not necessarily physically, but sure, physically as well. But literally, like, it's like how coins rub each other smooth.

Like, you can do all the work on yourself you want in a monk-like fashion, but you won't actually get that far. Like you have to have the conflict and contrast of another person. And that is a big reason we need it. And we need it because what else is there if it's not loving and connecting with other people? Well said, you know, I've had my head turned around on a lot of this having a kid, you know? Like for the longest time, I was, my whole life was defined by, you know, my relationship with my wife and my work. Those are the two things I was really into. And you have a kid and you're like, that is the connection that I had no idea was missing.

That is the thing. That is the influence on you that you don't understand is there. Obviously at that age that these characters are in, of course, connection feels like the thing that is most crucial. And some of the characters, like, here's Cedric's character is kind of like, I have to find somebody. You know, Bridget Fonda's character is the same way. She's like, I have to be paired off. I have to do this. I know what you're thinking.

We made the connection. And when you make the connection, it's like, Kemp, chemistry takes care of itself. I mean, it makes its own decisions, you know? So you got to just sit back and enjoy it because you know when it's real and this is real and we just don't even have to discuss it. Do you think then that if you don't have children, that you're not experiencing life fully? No, I mean, that would be such an arrogant thing to say. I think, I just think for me. It sounded like that's what you were saying. No, no, just for me. Like, I just didn't know. And I was a person who assumed I was not going to have kids.

So I got to 39 and hadn't had kids yet. And now that I have, I'm like, oh, this was actually, this was the connection. The way that you were just describing that is what made me think of it. And of course, I'm like a sappy dad about a lot of this stuff. But I think that as you go through different eras of your life, there are different things that you don't realize are missing until you get to those places. Right. I don't know. I wouldn't, I guess I wouldn't use the word missing.

I mean, I don't know. I'm not a mother. But I think, like, the healthiest way to look at it is that all connections are different, right? and they all offer you different experience and have different parameters and different levels of importance, but they're all important, you know, and they all sort of color your life. I completely agree. I'm really only talking about myself. I would kind of cast no judgment on anybody that makes all these choices in their life or even some of those choices that are not able to make for themselves anyway. But I think it's interesting, like in your 20s, it's a very narx.

statistic time. Sure. And it's a time where you think that you can solve your life's problems by getting to the end of this journey quicker. Or at least it used to be. I don't know. Maybe that's not as true anymore. And in fact, like, one of the things I like about the movie is it's not super resolved. Well, because there isn't an answer.

Right. Right. There isn't a right way to do or be it. Anyways, we've wandered far. Where do you want to go? Let's talk about the state of love and trust real quick. That was the first song, or one of the first songs, I think, that Cameron Crow really, like, resonated with and sort of used it as the heart and soul of the movie, I think is what he said about it. Do you get that from that song?

Yeah, I mean, it's played very early in the film. Mm-hmm. You know, didn't he write the song by watching the movie? Maybe. I think he did. I'm reading here, according to Jeff A. M. the lyrics for state of love and trust are based on what Vedder took from watching the film and added, I think he probably took a heavier angle.

Maybe just the music. Yeah. Okay. But I don't know. It's one of those songs that if you were a Pearl Jam fan is a big song because it's one of the songs that was recorded during the 10 sessions that was not on the album. Right. And so it looms kind of large as like the Lost's hit single. Yeah.

You did that back then. You would give it to a soundtrack. I know. Do you miss that? I miss soundtracks being important. I don't know if I miss, you know, people giving, the album doesn't exist anymore. Doesn't even matter. That's good point.

That's good point. It actually would make more sense now to do that. Yeah. To get a, to get a, to get, I just have a stray single in a movie. Totally. People do that too, right with trolls and stuff. I don't pay attention, but. Trolls 3 is coming out soon.

Can't wait. Have not. Do I need to see the first two to enjoy it or can I just go in? Trolls 2 is about optimism versus rockism. That's not a joke. That's actually what it's about. Okay. trolls too we discussed on the big picture podcast with rob harbilla actually oh it's interesting so rob harbilla has been on the big picture podcast twice he's probably been on it like six times oh that's really that's so interesting what do you want to be on it for do you see contemporary films in the theater i can do you have you have a passion for that i like the movie theater because i like the snacks it's quite an audition for the big picture you do older movies sort of

of not usually. Well, I'll let you know. If something comes up, this on the release slate and you're like, this is a movie that is going to matter to me. Let me know. Okay. I like that Rob Perville was like, Trolls 2 Matters to Me. See you on Wednesday. Well, that was actually because it was one of the first movies that was released VOD during COVID.

Right, right, right. And Rob usually comes on for movies like kids' movies. Yeah, because he has children also. His family was, his life was made meaningful by three children. I never said that. I don't know if his life is meaningful because. of his children. You'll have to ask him that. It seems like it's definitely

full because of it. He seems busy, yeah. Can we talk briefly about one important deleted scene, though, before we dive into the soundtrack? Yeah. Do you know about this, the Poncier tape? No. Okay. So there's this, like, great deleted scene where Chris Cornell leaves Citizen Dick.

They just don't understand him. They don't get the vision, whatever. And he's busking on the streets of Seattle trying to sell his tape of like, you know, solo songs or whatever. I guess Jeff Ament did a lot of the art and design for singles. Like, he designed a lot of posters and stuff. And he designed this tape, right? Here's what Cameron Crow said. It's kind of amazing.

The idea was that Matt Dillon's character, Cliff Ponce, in the course of the movie, loses his band, loses his girlfriend, and he gains soul. So there's a period where he's on the street corner busking, having lost his band, but beginning his solo career. And there would be, in reality, these guys standing on the corner outside of the clubs in Seattle, hawking their solo cassettes.

And Jeff Ament, in classic style, designed the cassette cover and wrote out these fictitious song names for the cassette. So I'm not going to read the whole quote, but basically what happens, Jeff Ament's like, he just makes up these funny, cool song titles, Flutter Girl, Spoon Man, just made up shit that's to him is funny if this guy was writing. And basically, Chris Cornell went and took the song titles and just wrote songs to them and recorded them, like within a couple of hours each. You know, that's how we got Spoon Man.

The Soundgarden song, Spoon Man is from this, like, fake song title for this, like, Cliff Poncier tape. Isn't that wild? One of my hot takes is that this version of Spoon Man, I prefer, actually, to the recorded version on, is it Super Un-Ur-N-Ur-R-N-U-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-ROW. That's kind of a great Chris Cornell note, too, that he was just kind of like, give me the bed and I'll fill it in. You know, like he could really sing to anything.

Well, he, no, he wrote the songs. There was nothing. There was, it was just titles. It was just art. Oh, it was just the titles. There was no music. Nothing. It was just.

But I thought the Spoon Man story was about like some guy he saw on the subway. Isn't that like a, isn't that the story? Maybe Jeff Ament would have known that guy too, but if it's Seattle. But like, these are, no, this is just art. And then Chris Cornell was like, okay, I'm going to, I'll make some songs. Didn't Flutter Girl then become like a song on one of his solo records too? I think so, yeah. Yeah.

Isn't that? I just thought that was, first of all, how talented to be able to just like in a couple of hours write songs to these. He said him and Andy Wood used to do that. Like when they lived together, they would make these tapes of like solo four track songs. That was like also sort of an homage to Andrew Woods like doing that. And he would go sell them at like the record stores. It's a good reminder of how insanely talented these people are. They're like, we talk about them, like, they're disposable, like, trading cards or something.

But, you know, Chris Cornell was like a all-world artist. Like, just an amazing songwriter, the singer of that era, like, just a truly one of one. One of a kind. Also, one of the most gorgeous men. Yeah. That's ever existed. Yeah, he was great. He was singing well all the way through the end of his life.

He was so well. Great singer. So anyways, the movie finishes, like we said, Warner Brothers was like, I don't know what to do with this bitch. Like, we're just going to hold this for a second. and then, you know, the nirvana of it all. Then they released the soundtrack three months before the movie. That's not typical, right? Not typical.

No. Although, did something hit? Did a song hit the charts? I think Allison Chains hit. Okay. Yeah, I think Alton Chains had a hit themselves as Allison Chains, but it wasn't Wood. Wood was released on June 30th, and the movie singles was not. released until September.

Right, because the single, the whole soundtrack was released on June 30. Yeah. But was it the first single from the soundtrack? Or was dyslexic heart the first single from the soundtrack? That's the thing I don't, I'm not sure. According to this, they put every single, they put the entire soundtrack wholesale out June 30th, 1982. Interesting. Nirvana was almost on here.

But? This is a, this is also contested. They said, well, they said no. So, phrasing it as they were almost on it is not. really accurate. Cameron Crowe wanted to use the song Emodium. In fairness, you have to remember, they had not broken. So it wasn't like they were asking

the big band to make the film pop or whatever. It was just one of the other Seattle bands. There was apparently a scene where they had another band play Teen Spirit or the working cut of singles was screened with Teen Spirit in it, but then end up being too expensive to put it on. There's an MTV

interview afterwards where they asked Nirvana about this. And Kurt is basically like, yeah, they asked us and we said no. They asked us to contribute a song to about a year ago and we said no. And so, you know what they did? Instead, they hired some cover band

and they did one of our songs. No way. Anyway. We're going to do one of your songs? We're going to do anywhere. He's not a Cameron Crow kind of fellow. I don't know what his film life was like. It's hard to say. Jim Jarmish?

Maybe. I'll ask. Okay. You'll ask Kurt when you ascend. I can ask Courtney, I guess. That's true. You should ask. What were his favorite movies?

I would love to know. Yeah. Cameron Crow said that he thinks Kurt and Courtney were at the screening of the movie and snuck out before it was over, but that's just goss. We can't pull that. I know I keep saying before we get to the soundtrack, we're going to get there. But I just want to point out, since we're talking Seattle bands, and just all of the cool cameos because they were the best.

Obviously, we talked about Stone Gosser, Jeff and Edie Vedder, being citizen dick. The part where Bridget Fonda decides to call Cliff Ponce and talk sexy, I'm burning for you, babe, et cetera. The guy who does answer the phone and says, I think you got the wrong number lady, but I'll be right over. That's Tad Doyle of Tad. I did know that. Great camey. Your friend Tim Burton. Yes, of course.

The next Martin Scorsese. He's only the next Martin Scorsese. I will have men dying at your first. feet. Ten bucks extra and Brian will shoot your video. 20. He doesn't even know me. Debbie, he is only like the next Martin Scorsese. There's a lot of great songs in the film that aren't on the soundtrack. Like during that scene, Pixies I'm Digging for Fire is playing in the background. R.E.M.'s radio song is in this film. Like the, when Kira Cedric goes up to Campbell's apartment for the first time, there's a music supervisor and I don't want to put respect on this man's

name, Danny Bramson. But Paul Westerberg did the music for the film. So anytime there's like a little beautiful acoustic guitar moment or like a beautiful little piano ditty, that's Paul Westerberg, no big deal. Strange, given the aggressive Seattleness of this film that they tapped Paul Westerberg to do the music, but I'm not going to complain. Yeah. Are we going to talk about Paul Westerberg now? Do you want to talk about that now? Let's talk about him when we talk about the replacement. or the Paul Worcester songs on here. But, okay, I'll finish the cameos. Paul Giamati, obviously, making out the restaurant.

Kissing man, yes. Yeah. Jeremy Piven, the pharmacist. Yes, really going for it. Full Piven. Quite a loud performance. It's great, though. He really is just so Piven every time. Yes.

Bruce Pavitt, subhop founder is one of the VHS dating service suitors. I also just wanted to know if you noticed on Janet's fridge, there is a flyer for Citizen Dick opening for the the Blue Oyster Cult on New Year's Eve. I didn't notice that. That's a good placement for them. I was like, wow, Citizen Dick was fucking popping off. They're opening from Blue Oyster Cult.

Yeah. Where are the anthems of our youth? Okay, let's get into the soundtrack. Starts off with Allison Chainswood. Obviously a fucking banger. One of the best Allison Chains' songs, inspired by the loss of Andy Wood, hence the name Wood. Do you have like an Allison Chains power ranking?

No, we've talked about this on here. Ranking is a male trait. Ranking is a male trait? Yeah. I find Nutshell to be like the most heartbreaking song of this era. Okay. Are you a big Allison Chains guy? Later in life.

When this was happening, I didn't really care about them. And Wood being the first song on this record and being so emblematic of this movie and this time, I was such a Kurt kid and secondarily Pearl Jam and then probably third sound garden. And Allison Shane just didn't register. And as I got older, I got much more into Lane and the cult of Lane. And Lane's just really sad songwriting. God. And his vocal performance is incredible.

He's just a great frontman, you know. Yeah. And could sing, as you pointed out, he was a hair metal singer and a metal singer and a grunge singer. And he could sing acoustic. And he really could do it all in his voice. He was singular. But what is up there for me? You know, everybody knows, man in the box and rooster.

is like a very, rooster is like the prestige song, you know? Yeah, but out of the hits, Wood is my favorite for sure. Like, to me, it's like the most emotionally resonant and just like,

what about them bones? I love them bones. I love Allison Chains. I was really into them in my youth. It was the kind of thing where it was just like, I'll tell you what, bitch, if that shit was in on,

you know, alternative nation or 120 minutes or whatever, I loved it. It's only in the extended version, but in the movie they play it ain't like that, right? That's the live song they play. Yes.

Yes. Which is also great song. So good. That's when Campbell Scott first sees Kira Sedgwick's. Exactly. Also, is that the same time where she's like, I want to go dancing? No, that's the previous sequence where she spots the Spanish guy who she's been dating. But what, what song is playing there?

That's when state of love and trust is playing. Correct. Yes. And I'm like, you went out dancing to state of love and trust. I had the same. Well, to me, it's not that you went out dancing to state of love and trust. It's the way that Kira Sedgwick and her friend are styled where I'm like, you guys don't look like you would. be in this scene.

Yeah, Campbell Scott, too. I think that, I don't know if that was just like, maybe like, that's what was so prominent in Seattle at the time that everyone was kind of part of it. Normies were into it. Yeah, I was wondering about that too. At one point Campbell Scott's character does wear a Mudhoney t-shirt. So, like, he does. And he's clearly into music.

So I don't know. The most normie person and the whole thing besides Debbie is probably Caras Edric's character. Yeah, she just doesn't. And I like Carisedric as an actor. I just, her acting style, the way her character is written, she just doesn't strike me as a gal would want to listen to Allison Chains. Do you think it was smart of him to not make them all like super grunge alt? Definitely.

And I don't even know he felt like he could have done that. Right. Because he'd been living there for a long period of time. So there was no scene like that. Yeah. You know, or it wasn't as prominent in 86 when he moved there. It wouldn't have made sense either. Like, oh, all the people that live in your apartment complex are all really into the same

exact music and dresses. It would make sense now because everyone, again, monoculture is alternative culture. But it's funny, though, the movie is so sold on that, that, that picture of Bridget Fond and Matt Dillon sitting on the bench, you know, and it was like, here's the grunge guy, you know, that's how the movie was framed. But then you watch the movie. I had a feeling the studio had something to do with that. Yeah, yeah. I'm sure. Again, post never mind, yeah. I find breath by Pearl Jam to not be the strongest song on this this here soundtrack. But, you know, it's kind of a skip for me. Yeah, same.

As I said, I love Pearl Jam, but this is not, not one of my tunes. No. Seasons is good. The Chris Cornell version, we talked about this. Gorgeous. I think it's one of his best songs. It's used a couple of times. Is it? In the film, I believe so. I believe that there's like a callback to it later in the film. Because, you know, that kind of very plaintive acoustic guitar.

Yeah, yeah. And so it's weird because the movie is designed to do that with the Westerberg songs, where they keep using kind of like snippets from the two key songs. But then I think he does it with Seasons once, too. you can see he's got like Cornell on the brain when he's making this movie. I mean, obviously Cliff, the whole, yeah, the redemption. Okay, dyslexic heart. Paul Westerberg. Is it one of his best songs or one of his worst songs?

Best. Oh my God. Are you crazy? It's one of his best songs. So I talked about talking heads recently on The Big Picture because Stop Making Sense was, you know, remaster, reissued. Oh, interesting. What a time that someone who knows so much. about the talking heads.

You did a talking heads episode. I guess Rob did too. You've never asked me to come on the big picture. Never. You've literally never asked me. This is the first time and you're doing it in public in front of all your adoring fans. So that you will be held accountable.

Honestly, I'm going to do whatever I want. So it doesn't really matter. And on that pot, I was like, my favorite band is, my favorite post-1975 band is Talking Heads. And that actually was a lie. The replacements are actually my favorite band. And, you know, I, we're shrew. of the replacements.

And I always looked at this, like a bro, like a 41-year-old bro does. You know, like I know it's a cliche, but it's fine. They're great. I've always looked at this movie and his contributions to it and this pivot point for him artistically with love and also skepticism because it feels like such a ball-faced pop pivot. Yeah, but he was all shook down. He was already sort of going in this direction. And I think dyslexic heart was supposed to be a replacement song.

I think that's right. I'm not judging him. Like, it's not that I think there's anything wrong with it. And I'm on board with the late period replacement stuff. Like, I like it. Same. I think I'll shook down as a deeply misunderstood album.

Agree. I really like it. I don't love how all those albums are mixed, but I really like the songs. Right. But this one, and maybe it's just because it was a movie that was in movie trailers and had that kind of like boppy, you know, the nah, nah, nah, nah, that like. felt very self-consciously like I'm not worried about the words anymore I'm worried about getting people shaking in their seats you know and he was he's he's he's the words guy he's the guy who wrote the songs and made you go like oh fuck like isn't life so painful or so funny or so stupid

but it's an undeniable song right anybody who hears it is just like well that's stuck in my head forever so I'm torn I like I like it I love it I love paul westerberg I love him I still think the lyrics are pretty good are they though I mean the idea of a dyslexic heart alone is really strong. But I don't think he understands dyslexia. Well, I think he was simply, you know, I think he was using it as shorthand to me to I mix things up. But it's almost like he can't see.

Like, the metaphor is very mixed if you look at the lyrics of the song. Is this your name or a doctor's eye chart? Is that what you're saying about the... Yeah. Yeah. I think he's just me. I can't, I don't read it. I can't understand it.

Yeah. I'm a Westerberg. But if your heart is dyslexic, that doesn't mean you can't read. It means you don't know how to feel. So is that your name or a doctor's eye chart, like the letters being jumbled has nothing to do with the complexity of your feeling in your heart. It's just a goofy lyric. I think you might be overstating the elegance of former replacement's lyrics. Maybe in this.

You might be right. But in those cases, I was like, those guys were drunk. This is a much more sober, polished Paul Westerberg. I don't think he ever got sober, babe, so. Yeah. Well, maybe just mixed differently. I don't know. You know what I mean?

No, there's a sheen to this tune. Sure, of course. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely, I think Paul Wester was always writing pop songs. It's just to various degrees of success and to various degrees of sloppiness or production. And I think this is just like, was really one of the final forms of the Westerberg thing, you know? Yes. I kind of like waiting for somebody better, though.

Well, that was one of the final forms of the Westroberg thing, you know? Well, that was one. I was going to say. That's the one I prefer. I mean, it's like, it's like, it is a little, it is a little saccharin, whereas like waiting for somebody is so beautiful. I completely agree. It just feels more like a Paul song to me. Yeah, I love him. Well, apparently the whole thing that happened was Westerberg played this song, Dislexic Heart for Lenny Warrinker at Warner Brothers. Warrenker called the film studio and said, quote, I got a song here that's hit-ish, according to, this is what Paul Westerberg told,

Bob Mare, my sort of cousin in Trouble Boys. And Cameron Crow liked it so much that he asked him for another song. And then that's sort of how he got him involved to do the score. Interesting. Highly recommend Trouble Boys. Bob's book is incredible. It's one of the best music books ever. We had him on the Replacements episode.

I know. I listened to it. Do you like where he took his career after this? Like 14 songs in that era? I like 14 songs, but I'm a replacements diehard. Yeah. I like that messiness. Same. Same. That's what I'm saying.

But also, you can't be like a fucking drunk punk the rest of your life. And then you become a drunk pop singer. Did you get into any of his soundtrack work? Mm-mm. Besides, not besides this one. He did an animated movie, I think, called Over the Hedge. And he wrote the songs for it. There's not really some great songs on it.

Okay. I'll check it out. These two were the first ever solo Paul Westroar songs, though. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. he also told Bob Mare, I didn't feel one bit of pride over that. There were 10 bands on that thing about the success of the album. Because the album, you know, was really successful.

It hit the top 10 in the billboard. And he was like, basically like, I don't give a shit. Which, in keeping with Paul Westerberg is perfect. Another reason I liked him is he's like the ultimate straight shooter. Just like suffer no fools. Like this is what's really going on guys. He was like Allison Jains, bitch. Like, I don't care.

I can't imagine him sitting around listening to Allison Jains. I mean, neither. Okay. Now I want to ask you, lovemongers. Mm-hmm. Love mongers. Mm-hmm. Cover of the Led Zeppelin song, Battle of Evermore. Lovemongers are Ann and Nancy Wilson. What do you think about this?

Completely superfluous. This is just let me put my girlfriend on the soundtrack a little bit. Yes, 100%. Okay, okay. I'll make a case for it. Let's show the lineage of where this music comes from. from. Okay. We'll get a Seattle artist at heart. Sure.

To record a Zeppelin song, which you pointed out earlier, is a framework for a lot of the grunge bands. And also their famous mud sharking incident took place in Seattle. I didn't know that or I didn't remember that. We won't get too into what that was, but you can look at them. It's so gross. I, you know, Battle of Evermore is not even in my top 10, top 20 lead zeb songs. So don't really care about this one.

Yeah, I mean neither. I mean, I guess like to your point, yeah, there's join the lineage. That's smart. Also, like, my one thought was like, it's not like everyone was only listening to contemporary of the moment grunge music. Like, there was other music. Even in the film, they do a smart thing where, like, they have Campbell Scott listening to Hendricks and some other stuff that he like name checks that I didn't write down. It's like a muddy water's needle drop in the middle of the movie. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I thought that was smart because it's like, you know, that's more realistic. Okay. Mother Love Bone, bitch, Chloe dancer, Crown of Thorns. Sobbing. I'm crying.

Epic tune. Also appeared briefly in Say Anything. He really, Cameron Crow really likes this. This is a great song. It's a beautiful, just a little homage to Andrew Wood, just a gorgeous song, really, you know, a love song, emotionally evocative. Just perfect. This is what I was talking about, though, with Elton John.

Like, there's really kind of high stakes balladry going on here that feels elevated above some of their cohort at the time. This sounds like an 80s song for sure. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. But it's like a, you know, it's like a good version of damn Yankees or warrant or whatever trying to do, you know, a ballad like this. I'll say Mr. Big. Mr. Big was good. Mr. Big? Yeah, sure. Wow. Was that song like all the rage in your elementary school? I don't remember, but it must have been because it's like burned in my soul and I still do it at karaoke because I really like it. That was a song people were having their first kiss to. Yeah.

Not I. I was a bit of a label, but I was more likely to like a Nirvana song or something. Right. Right. Right. A bit later. Which Nirvana song? I don't remember.

I don't remember. I like Chloe Danceer a lot. I love Chloe Dancer. So this is. I'm not a mother love bone expert by any means, though. Like where does this kind of sit in their discography? I haven't spent a ton of time with Mother Love Bone. But what I've heard I've really liked, they were a little bit like in this realm, right?

Like a little 80sish, a little glamish. Andrew Wood was just like a phenomenal frontman and singer and just like really special. And it was very sad that he, I mean, he was one of the first heroin tragedies of the scene, you know? Yeah, this song is a great showcase for what he brings to the table as a singer. Yeah, totally. Birth ritual? Fucking banger. Yeah.

They play that in the movie live. Yeah, this is the flip side of Cornell, right? The flip side of Soundgarden from Seasons, the sort of like the chugging, powerful, Kim Thiel, thudding, kind of tractor trailer, rock and roll, you know, or it's like you bump along to this song. It's really heavy. I like it a lot.

I do, too. It's great. And it's fun to see it in the movie being performed, Chris Cornell, shirtless, just going for it. Usually that kind of thing wouldn't work in a movie. like multiple scenes with people watching bands, but somehow he makes it work. To me, it felt so natural.

Yeah, you credibly believe that this is their social life, right? Yeah, exactly. And, like, I mean, it was my social life for so long, so it's like, yeah. Yeah, that's true. I don't other movies have more scenes of people being, seeing bands. That's what my life looks like. I was just talking to a ringer staff for earlier today,

actually right after I got off my call with you. And he was wearing a band t-shirt, and he was telling me, and this was not a 25-year-old. kid. This was an adult man. He was like, yeah, I'm hoping to go see them in a week. And I was like, wow, you're still getting after it, huh? Just going to live shows, like into your middle age. It's kind of impressive. Like, I feel like I've lost it. I didn't say that to him. But if he hears this, then he's going to know. But I mean, he's a wonderful guy. He loves music. It's not a criticism.

It's different when your life has become meaningful with children. But when you don't have children, it's quite easy to go to live shows. Do you go to a lot of shows now? I don't go to a lot. I think I'd go to more than most 41-year-old people probably, but I would argue it's part of my job in a way. For sure. Out of 365 days a year, 365 nights, how many of those nights are you watching live music?

24. That's not that much. Yeah. I mean, I don't think I go more than two or three times a month. That's normal. Yeah. Especially for somebody who's very interested in music and works in music. Yeah, I'm also tired and I go to bed at 9.30, so it has to be like something special to, like, pull me out of the house. But I do love seeing live music. We talked about Pearl Jam's standard love and trust. Did you know that Jack Irons is the one that put Mookie Blaylock onto Eddie Vedder?

I have heard that, yeah. I have studied Pearl Jam's history, yeah. First drummer of Red Hotchley Poppers. Yeah. For those who that don't know. But he drummed for Pearl Jam as well. Mm-hmm. Yeah, but I'm just saying Red Hatchelipper's connection. You still in on the chili peppers to this moment? Yeah, I love them. Okay. I'm a fan.

Also, a lot of, this is where I learned that a lot of the stuff on the walls of Matt Dillon's apartment were literally lifted from Jeff Amund's walls. Did you think he's a good actor, Jeff Ament? No. He's the one that comes in, like, Cliffman, you got to move your car and he's wearing, like, a sports t-shirt. We didn't even talk about Xavier McDaniel's performance in this movie. I know. He's a. in the imagination of Campbell Scott while he's trying not to prematurely ejaculate.

Don't come, Steve. Don't come, Steve, yeah. Things happen throughout the course of the game. It's nothing you can do. I don't go out to look to say I'm going to beat this guy up or beat that guy up. Anything else, X? Yes. Steve don't come yet.

That was a cool little cameo. A little flourish. A little artistic flourish there going inside the mind of Steve. Again, one of these sort of fantasy new wave gadard moments. You're making fun of me, but it's true. I'm not. I'm not. I'm being very serious.

It's like the mime. I'm being dead serious. It's just funny that Cameron Crow's version is like an NBA player in someone's mind. That's great about it. Yeah, I love that. He's like, I can only do this the way I know how to do it. Exactly. This is a very interesting moment in the soundtrack that I wanted to talk about.

Mudhoney's overblown. Mudhoney did not turn around and say, okay, here's one of our songs. Mudhoney was like, oh, okay, let me remember. write a little song for you, bitch. And they are making fun of everything. They're making fun of people loving Seattle. They're making fun of, you know, grunge fashion being marketed. Everybody loves us. Everybody loves our town. Even the sound of the song is like, it's like not mud honey. It sounds like if I'm being generous, it sounds like mud honey doing like early replacements or like mud honey doing like super suckers.

Yeah, they took the piss, right? Like they were really ahead of the curve on not wanting their town to become the object of national attention. I don't know. Mark Arm was like pretty early in on this where he was very reluctant, defiant, very willing to put the thumb in the eye of the potential success. But I wonder if he still feels that way now. You know, like I've heard him talk in the last few years with a different tone than he did in 1992, three, three, four. It is really funny. I was thinking that a lot while I was watching hype, kind of what you're talking about,

where I was like, it was so cultural to be weary of and look down upon this kind of success, you know? And it makes so much sense when you think about the roots and stuff. But then when you like really, you zoom out and you're like, wow, these people, they were thinking like they were always going to be 26, right? Because like, actually, I mean, yeah, is selling. out cool. No, of course, whatever we can get into. It doesn't exist anymore. Doesn't matter. We've heard we talked about this here a million times. But the idea that you could still have a career at 58 because you had that level of success that time is important. And I think that didn't occur to any of them. Didn't occur to them that that would mean longevity. Longevity wasn't

part of the game. They just thought it was like a flash in the pan thing and they didn't want anything to do with it or whatever. But what it was. ended up meaning was longevity, you know? I mean, look at Pearl Jam. Look at, you know, if, you know, of Chris Kronel was still alive and even without him, you know, like SoundGarden, like these bands are still can, if they wanted to, can still do what they love and make money from it, whereas like, not so much mud honey, you know? No, I think you nailed it.

I mean, I think there's, there were other things that would probably restrain mud honey from being Pearl Jam. They weren't, yeah, they weren't doing this. the same they weren't writing the same They weren't selling the same They weren't selling the same product But you know Pearl Jam like if you're If you're sympathetic to Pearl Jam and I am

Those of us who are tend to make the case That like this was a major label Rock band with flowing Long Hair and singing Desperate Anthems in the early 90s There was also like really ethical and had a real Point of view on the world and was unafraid to communicate about what they thought about the world

And what wasn't good in the world Yeah took on ticket master Yeah you know We're pro choice and very open platforms, you know, were very defiant of Republican administrations in a way that, like, very few bands were in the last 30 years. And they didn't sell out, you know, Pearl Jam. Like, their songs might have been considered, like, kind of too pop and too straining for attention for the likes of certain subpop artists.

Well, they're way more earnest. Yes. They're just fundamentally different than, like, even. They don't have, like, an ironic stance. like a fuck you stance or a this who cares stance that was very grunt that was not pearl jam they were they were like writing from the heart yes they wanted to play stadiums too yeah yeah yeah but i think it's garden too a little bit yeah i think that i always found it so fascinating that they so closely aligned themselves with neil young because that was Neil young's thing too right he was like

i'm going to use the machine to do something right that criticizes the culture that you can't do from outside yeah right right right and that's a true choice. That's a choice that some artists make, and Mark Arm did make that choice. Mark Arm is, I get totally where he's coming from, because, again, watching hype really helped me understand it better, but it was just like one day, these were just like your friends and you went to the fucking coffee shop and whatever. And like six months later, there were thousands of reporters in your town. Everybody was trying to like market and sell things that you just did because, like, it's the Pacific Northwest and people were flannels because it's a logger town. And, like,

like now they're selling flannels for $88 at Nordstrom. You know, like, it's just like the commodification and reselling of your life and culture must have been so fucking insane. When these bands started to get popular, all of a sudden, everyone wanted to find the next Nirvana. Everyone wanted to sign the next Pearl Jam. It's so profitable. It's so profitable. And they'll just keep taking and taking and taking. And they're, they just don't know how to restrain themselves.

Yeah, totally. I don't, I don't criticize in either direction. it's just interesting to look back on how people chose to participate. You know, like Mudhuddy literally wrote a song making fun of this moment for this soundtrack. Which is very funny. I mean, again, if they had written a different one, they might have made a lot of money. Exactly my point. They might have raised their own profile.

I mean, but again, they're real ones. They were like, we don't give a shit. But you could make the case that Allison Chains were like, okay, here's the one song we're going to write. And it's going to be one of the signature songs we'll ever write. And it's going to lead to us having a major label breakthrough. Even Screaming Trees did that. I mean, Screaming Trees had been around, like the third album or whatever. and they put a really good fucking screaming tree song on here.

Nearly Lost You is probably one of their best songs ever. And I think it did raise that profile a lot. Definitely. It's their biggest hit. Yeah. And they ended up selling 300,000 copies, I think, of their next album. Yeah. It's interesting to think about that.

And Screaming Trees also, I wouldn't say, like, the most commercial-minded band of all time. They're also in hype being really funny where they're like, we're fucking losers, dude. Like, we don't, like, we're dorks. Like, we didn't talk to girls in high school until, like, today. Like we just were not those people Yeah part of what I like about this generation of musicians this era this like scene whatever you want to call it is

that you can have and appreciate both like absolute like pained artistry of Chris Cornell The like overwhelming sincerity of seasons and also be like It's really funny than Mudhoney wrote overblown for this and like them both you know and be interested in both it's great very few musical

kind of subgenres or snapshot moments can withstand and that difference and approach, there has to be more of a uniformity to these things. So that's part of the reason why I think Grunge is so good. That's what happened, though. It's not even a genre anymore. This is like the turning point where it stopped being a genre and became a culture.

And they just slapped a name on it that eventually morphed into alternative music. But it no longer had anything to do with the sound per se. I mean, I agree with you. And obviously, many of the bands that were participating were like, please stop saying that dumb word when this was all happening. But it's just a shorthand for us as podcasters 30 years later to describe something. I just find it more interesting historically, whereas like before that where you said something, it meant something, you know, like in terms of sound and music.

And then after this, it meant more. It was really the turning point of like all the influences. Like we were saying with a little bit Rodrigo, really, like in a different way, these influences had all started to merge. And that's why they all sound different, but they're pulling from similar places. Like, they're all pulling from, like, punk, metal, the Leds up, and the Beatles, whatever, and it's just coming out in completely different ways. Yeah, yeah. In a wonderful fashion, though.

And it was, like you said before, so short. So short. It's a brief. But so we live on in the shadow forever until we die. I'll probably be making some version of content about this period of my life and this music for the next 20 years. Literally same. I don't know about anything else. also mark yarm will never be funny not funny to me that mark yarm who wrote everybody loves our town the oral history of grunge another great book based on mark arms a song waiting for somebody we talked about this opens the movie which i think is like a really it's a really beautiful way to open the money also it also closes the movie right i think so yeah well that the song is used as kind of like a thematic signature throughout different phases of the movie

Super It's just a good fucking song And it gives it It gives a buoyancy, I think, to the film That is just like what you were saying Like, this is at its core This is a positive and sort of earnest And like a beat film, you know?

Completely. You nailed what I was going to say. It's the right song for the movie. Yeah. Jimmy Hendricks experienced this may be love. Jimmy Hendricks being from Seattle So I could see that part. Yeah, and you know, this is played during that sequence where Campbell Scott's character and Secure Cedric's character are kind of vibing, connecting.

She's going through his record collection. Yeah, in his apartment. You know, and they've been drinking and they've been hanging out. And, like, yeah, it's nice. It's nice. It works. It's well chosen. And also, like, I'm sure you've had that experience with, even just with friends, but with people that you're getting interested in where you're, like, experiencing each other's taste in real time.

You know, that's part of playing records for people is like, what do you like and why do you like it? You can feel them doing that with each other. Do you think only we care about that kind of stuff? And there's like a whole swath of people that don't care about that? No. Well, I mean, at this time in the 90s, absolutely, I think people did what they're doing. Right. Just like on dates.

Now, I don't know if you'd like go through your potential paramour's Spotify playlist. That doesn't sound quite as romantic. But maybe it would be. You just like grab somebody's phone and be like, what's on your most recently played. It's not what you are like. It's what you like. Dick Berry and I agree that what really matters is what you like, not. what you are like.

Yeah, I mean, I am like that, obviously, but I know that about myself. I know I'm not kind of a cliche. Me too. But I would argue some people aren't because they're just, not everybody is animated primarily by film art and music like, like us.

I know, but music in particular can be a very important meeting point for people that are getting together for the first time. No, but I recently had dinner with a close friend and his new girlfriend and I asked her, like, what she was into, and she was like, I don't really listen to music. People who don't listen to music should be in jail. Well, I mean, I'm sure she does.

It's not something that's, like, a big deal for her. And, like, I was, like, speechless because I was like, oh, man, I'm the loser here because, like, once you take that off the table, I have nothing to talk about. I'm boring. That's not true, but I do think that that's, there is a kind of sociopathic strain. And people who are like, I'm not really interested in music. It's like you're not interested in having a soul? Like, how can that be the case? You know, that's just different strokes for different folks.

Tell your friend's new girlfriend that I said she doesn't have a soul. Okay. Okay. Screaming Tree is nearly lost you. God damn gorgeous, beautiful song. Like we said it, just fucking, it works. The song that they play while they're taking the pregnancy test, it's a bit of foreshadowing. It's just a banger.

It's just a banger. Nearly lost you. got a huge bump from me when it was added to Guitar Hero 5. Just want to put that out there. Got it. You cannot fathom the idea of going to live music shows, but you absolutely still play video games. I haven't played Guitar Hero 5 in like 15 years.

Okay. It's just a long time ago. Okay, got it. Just checking. I have to actually look to see when that edition of the game was issued. Let's see what you were. I hope Mark Arr made some fucking... It was 2009.

Cash off that. Okay. So yeah, you're still in your video game era? I was. I think I visited my brother in college and they were really. into Guitar Hero at that point. And so I was joining them playing. It was good, though.

Nearly lost you. Lanigan, RIP. Shit, man. Oh, my God. He was, you and I were talking about Queens of the Stone Age off mic earlier today. Yeah.

And his contributions to that band are enormous. I also spent a lot of time with bubble gum recently because I was doing the Afghan wigs. But, yeah, they don't make men like that anymore. I said that about him, and I said that about Greg Dooley. They don't make men like that anymore.

He was a damaged poet. Yeah. And like so masculine. That combination of like damaged poet but like hyper masculine. It's so rare. Drown is my favorite smashing pumpkin song. Not just my favorite song on the soundtrack, but it is my favorite smashing pumpkin song. It is so fucking good.

It's very dark and sad. And the way that it is deployed in the film, I must say is not totally like centerpiece. in the way that I would have liked. They just play it in the background when Cliff is trying to get Janet back. And he basically compares her to the loud noise that he used to hear when he lived by the airport. And he came to miss that noise. And she was like, what are you fucking talking about? But apparently, again, another non-Syattle, this is like the one that you can't even really make any sort of justification for,

except that Smashing Pumpkins arguably were within the milieu. And Chris Cornell, I guess, had just. just played a show, Soundgarden just played a show, Smashing Pumpkins in Chicago, and he told Cameron Crow about them and the rest of his history. Again, they didn't even put out GISH till 91. So you could make the case that the like identity crisis of grunge starts the moment this song is added to the soundtrack. Well, I mean, smashing pumpkins again, very clearly in the lineage of like Led Zeppelin and all that. I'm like very not in the lineage of punk at all. I have no punk roots, no punk DNA.

But also in the lineage of like the Beatles and T-Rex and a lot of other bands. Yeah. But for some reason, they wrote about 10 songs that feel like essential grunge songs. Because it's the way they're done. So they're sludgy. It's the same as all the other ones. They're the production, the guitar tone. Billy Corgan is a master of that sound.

It's, you know, didn't he recently get mad that he wasn't credited with inventing emo? I'm not sure. I feel like he gets mad about something new every day, so I'm not quite sure. I feel that that happened. But yeah, this is... I think Zero is my favorite of their songs, but this is way up there. There's so many good ones. Perfect.

I mean, like, you get into the fucking... You really open that can of worms and you're like, damn, Billy Corgan's a goddamn genius. The amount of fucking perfect songs that that one person wrote. The one thing that's... The one challenge, though, is that all of... I feel like these... Well, you know, whatever problematic stuff. goes on with him is even to the side of this conversation.

There was always something like not very soulful about smashing pumpkins to me and all of these other artists are very, very, very soulful. His voice. Yeah, but even in the songs, I'm like, is this something that you feel or is it just a, or is it more of like a construct for your pop song writing sensibility? It's like oasis though. It's like doesn't really matter because like in the end, it's able to manufacture or illicit manufacturing, manufacture is what he was doing, but it's able to elicit

those genuine emotions in the listener. So does it really matter if they felt it? I don't really often think about this unless I have to. Like if I put smashing pumpkins on for my daughter, I'm just like, these are songs I like. There's no narrative. Whereas if you're like, I'm going to explain Allison. I wouldn't explain Alison Chains to my daughter. But if you put on Allison Chene's, you're like thinking about the band and what happened

to the band and, you know. I think Billy Corgan probably actually has a great deal of emotional depth. I think it's just he is handicapped by. the way that he expresses himself. But I think he's a deeply pained person. I feel like tonight tonight marked him as like a theater kid in a way too. Yeah.

I'm not saying he is one, but it just in my mind makes me think that he's like... Have you seen his cloaks that he wears on stage now? I think he kind of is one. Tonight tonight's also a fucking gorgeous song, though. Sorry, it's a good song. I don't care of it's theater. It's okay.

It's not my favorite. We'll crucify the incense here tonight. Tonight. It's beautiful. This is the only song that is, is not available on the single soundtrack for streaming because Billy Corgan was mad that they pushed wood. I guess drown started to get traction at radio because it is so good.

And it was their first song that had momentum at radio because there's no songs off Gish that really had radio momentum. And Epic killed it. And so Billy Corgan, 20 years later, when they wanted to do the reissue and they asked for the demo, told them to fuck off. And it said, quote, slight revenge. I took money out of my own pocket, but that's the way it goes. Incredible stuff.

Corgan be Corganing. And then there's the, I don't want to get too into it, but there's a bunch of really cool shit on the 25th anniversary thing where they like, they have a citizen dick, which is actually mud honey doing touch man dick. Those Chris Cornell songs, nowhere but you spoon man, flutter girl missing. Allison Chains, it ain't like that live. Soundgarden Birth Ritual Live. the acoustics of dyslexic heart and waiting for somebody. And this song that got cut from the film by this band Truly, do you know this song?

Heart and Lunges. I tried to listen to it yesterday and I couldn't track it down. I couldn't either. Lost in the annals of time. And then Blood Circus Six Foot Under, which was apparently a really important song that was never going to be in the movie, but Cameron Crow was always listening to

while he was making the movie. And then a couple of other like Paul Westerberg and Chris Cornell. pieces. It's one of, to me, one of the most iconic soundtracks. Yeah. Did you mention John Coltrane? No. Like Blue Train is in this movie too. Oh yeah. Is that also in the... It's like after they've split up and Steve's on his own. Yeah, when he's in the bell jar and like sitting around with Chinese food boxes and

yeah. And it's like, it's a little on the nose because he's playing with his model train. Blue train. His drain dreams have his train dreams. Do you give them good coffee. It is on the nose. But also it's like, I don't know. We're going to complain about like one of the best, one of the five most significant jazz albums. You know, like it's really in that short list. He's like, okay, he's sad about the train. He has a blue train. He's a actual literal train. He's blue. He's blue. He's blue. I was like, okay, we get it, babe. What do you think of Tom Scarrott is the mayor? I thought they did him dirty with the close-up of his mouth because I was like, he could have put a little chapstick on those fucking lips, bitch. Like, wow. Teeth are a little less straight than you want them to be.

you're going to get that close up, you know? The straight tea that we've talked about this, I don't, I don't know if we've talked about this, but like my greatest sadness is that everyone started fixing their teeth because movies and everything was so much more interesting when people had normal teeth. A really good example is after hours. Oh, I just watched it. Everyone in that film has really interesting and normal. Griffin has a huge space on the side.

Yeah. It's crazy. And some like, maybe even some plaque and, you know, who else? And a huge unibrow and just like people used. even in singles you get that. I have to say, like, Bridget Fonda is, like, a face that you don't get to see much anymore. We're like, she's so beautiful, right?

But it's like, she has thin lips. You don't see thin lips anymore. She has an unusual nose. Unusual nose. It's like, turn to one side. Kira Sedric even. It was just, there was something interesting and sort of, like, accessible a little. I mean, they're obviously way better looking than normal people, but, like, it was still.

Insanely white, though. This is one of the whitest movies. Right. I mean, I think, you know, it's Seattle and it's the green scene. Seattle is very white. Yes. But I don't know. But still, like, if you would never make a movie about single people in a big city in America now, with nine white people.

No. No, no, you definitely wouldn't. And you wouldn't, I mean, we don't have time to get into this. But like, I really, I was thinking again, where I was like, man, I really, you would have thought the internet would have made there be more. scene and vibrancy in smaller cities. And it does feel like it just did the complete opposite where like all of the big cities of America all became dwarfed by L.A. and New York.

Doesn't it feel that way to you? In storytelling, you mean? Like in movies? Just like it just feels like in general. Like it's like where people would pick up to go live. You're just a coast. Yeah, maybe it's maybe I'm just, I mean, I lived in San Francisco briefly. And like I just, I don't know. I'm probably wrong.

In my adult life, I've only lived in New York City in Los Angeles, so I'm very much like the poster child for lack of perspective on this issue. But I do think, like, I own that, you know. Yeah, you're right. I wish I had lived in Chicago for a period of time. I wish I had lived in a number of cities because I love visiting so many cities in the country. But I think that for the work that we do, it just made the most sense for us to be in these places. It wouldn't have made sense for me to go to Seattle in 2004. That would have been a weird choice for what I was trying to do.

Yeah, I mean, I think it was the thing that used to happen, which it was, you were from Long Island, you went to New York. Like, people that were from Aberdeen or Bellingham or, like, Eugene, Oregon went to the closest big city, you know? Absolutely, yes. Well, anyways, that is, that a single is a goddamn gorgeous, beautiful soundtrack. A real accidental slice of culture captured by both the film and the soundtrack. in a cool way that doesn't happen with very many movies. And I don't know that it makes it not timeless. Some parts of it.

But I can't know because I lived through it. So it's hard for me to understand, you know? You should have had like a 19-year-old guest on this episode to give you the real talk about whether or not it holds up. I think 19-year-olds think the 90s are cool. Every teenage generation thinks the 90s are cool. Maybe you should have had an 84-year-old woman on. Yeah, they would have been like, these kids. I really like the movie.

I love the soundtrack. The soundtrack is, like I said before, just a brilliant snapshot of a moment in in American music. Yeah. Well, Sean Fantasy. It's been a real delight and a pleasure to have you on the program. This was fun. If I said anything that hurt you, I'm sorry about that. If I said anything that made you feel good, just I can say it again. You just have to tell me what it was. Is that your version of I'm happy for your, I'm sorry that happened, but I'm not reading all that. TLDR. Gorgeous. Podcast. I'm doing great. Come back next week for a new episode of Bansplaine. If you liked what you heard today, subscribe for more episodes of Bansplaine.

Our guest today was Sean Fennacy. You can follow him on Twitter at Sean Fennacy. This episode was produced by Jesse Miller Gordon and edited by Adrian Bridges with help from Justin Sales. Executive producers for Bansplaine are Gina Delvac and me, Yossi Salek. Our gorgeous and catchy theme song was composed and performed by Bethany Costantino and Jennifer Claven and graciously recorded by Carlos Teligarza in Los Angeles, California. Special thanks for our producer emeritus,

producer Dylan, aka Dylan Tupper Rupert, and also Casey Simonson, Robert Adler, Leah Edwards, David McDonough, Dana Mearsson, Jessica Hopper, and the David and Victoria Beckham documentary. Come back every Thursday for a new episode of Batesplain on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.

We'll go to staff karaoke. We have done that, but not for many, many years. Oh, not until I came because everyone's afraid they're going to be blown out of water. That's what it was. No one can compete with that level of charisma. We put it on ice when Yassi joined. She's too, she's too formidable.