Bandsplain - The Sundays with Hazel Cills

Episode Date: June 8, 2023

Two people fell in love at University and then they started writing good pop songs. Decades later they still can’t see what the big deal is, but they released three albums as The Sundays, and people never got over it. NPR editor Hazel Cills joins us to discuss the idyllic sounds and reasonable attitudes of this short lived, yet perpetually ongoing band.  Follow Hazel Cills on Twitter @HazelCills Listen to the song we detail in the episode HERE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You may find this hard to believe, but 60 songs that explain the 90s. America's favorite poorly named music podcast is back. With 30 more songs than 120 songs total. I'm your host, Rob Harvilla, here to bring you more shrewd musical analysis, poignant nostalgic reveries, crude personal anecdotes, and rad special guests, all with even less restraint than usual. Join us once more on 60 Saws that Explain the 90s every Wednesday on Sunday on. Spotify.

What's with this band anyway? I don't get it. Can you please explain? Wait, like, Bansplaine? Hello and welcome to Bansplaine. I am your host, Yossi Salick. This is a show where I invite an expert guest on to help me explain a cult band or iconic artist.

Today's episode is about maybe the cultiest and most iconic artist. I don't know. The Sundays. If you've never heard the Sundays, here's where the story begins, babe. My guest today is Hazel Sills, writer and editor at NPR Music. It's not a big deal. It's the national public radio.

Welcome to the show, Hazel. Thank you for having me. Oh, my God, I'm so excited to have you. Before we dive in, do you want to tell us a little bit about why you're the Sunday girl? Sunday's girl? Yeah. Why am I the Sunday?

Why am I the Sunday girl? maybe because I once kicked a boy until he cried. No. Who hasn't, babe? Truly. Who amongst us? Yeah, I don't know. I just think that the Sunday is just like, they're a band that embodies so much of what I'm looking for in music sometimes. Like this very, like, pretty beautiful, moody sound paired with like very acidic lyrics and ideas. And yeah, I don't know. They just sort of fit into my overall. wheelhouse of like jangly pop and i don't know sort of like twisting femininity and yeah i don't know they've

long been a favorite band of mine and i think reading writing and arithmetic is like a desert island album for me so i feel like i can say a lot about them i'm sold are you a cocktail twins girly i also am a cocto twins girly i feel like yeah people talk about harriet wheeler and elizabeth fraser a lot vocally in the same group of like blustery English Lasses. Yeah.

Yeah, Lasses is the correct word. Are you a Smiths girlie? This is a safe space. Yeah. I get canceled on the podcast. No, I'm not a Smiths curly. The Smiths comes up a lot when people talk about the Sundays

and honestly I've never understood it. And I think... Oh, you don't hear it. I totally hear it. I hear it like instrumentally, but thematically. I don't know. Morrissey is so bitter. Yeah, he's like a whiny little bitch. For sure. Of course.

We love that for him, honestly. But I think you're totally right. Like content-wise, we are not dealing with the same matters. But I think musically, I can hear the influence. Yeah, these like sort of like walls of sound. And like, lots of wailing. And jangle. There's so much jangle in this myth. Yeah. Whaling about your problems. Wailing about bored. Jingle, jingle, jangle.

Jingle jangle. It's a jingle jangle jingle jingle jingle d'lons. In the jingle dangle morning, I'll come following you. Let's start with Harriet Wheeler, one Harriet Wheeler, born June 26, 1963, a cancer. I did a double take when I first saw the birthday, and in my head I was like June Gemini, and then I was like, not, no. And then I was like, okay, no, cancer. That makes so much more sense.

She's from Reading, the daughter of an architect, and a team. teacher, and she went off to seek her college studies. I don't think they call it college in England, but... University? Uni. Yeah. She went off to uni at Bristol University, which is where she studied English literature and met one David Gavron, born April 4, 1963, and Ares from London. Also, must I say, two of the most attractive people I've ever laid eyes on. I know. They're like that couple you would see on campus and are like, I want to be friends with them. I want to be in

their orbit. I want to be in a thruple with them. Yeah, totally. Just absolutely stunningly gorgeous people. This is like the mid-80s. Also just a total side note, but it's going to come up later. Dave, as he was called, in his youth had formed a friendship with this guy, David Batiel, who is a comedian and like TV personality who also writes children's books now, but they were like childhood friends. And later on, the Sundays will provide the theme song to his sketch comedy show. Oh, my God, you went so deep. I'm like, what? That's right. Okay. Anyways. So Dave, Dave was pursuing a degree in the romance languages, French and Spanish. He once described himself as a failed punk, according to this insane book, well, it's not a book. It's an anthology called Contemporary Musicians that is out of print that I did find

on there's an online library where you can simply, I don't know why you have to check the book out by the hour because it's literally I'm looking at it on the internet. I guess. But I found that out from that. And Harriet at the time was singing in a band called Jim Jiminy. Which I'd never heard. Yeah. Kind of good.

This was with a guy named Nick Hannan, who was the older brother of Patrick. Pat Chanon, who will eventually become the Sunday's drummer. I found a little interview from Melody Maker where they asked Harriet what made her want to sing. And she said, there was never a time I wanted to be incredibly famous or in a pop group. I would listen to the Jackson 5 and sing along for hours. I thought I was Michael Jackson, which took quite a leap of faith. It just seemed a great thing to do to spend time working on something that's your own. There's going to be little interview pieces like this all throughout where they're basically like, where everyone's like, why did they disappear?

And it's like clear as day from the beginning that they're like, we did not want to be famous. Yeah. We had no interest. And I think like, I don't know. I mean, because I feel like I was also sort of reading interviews with them before this. And I was like, I don't know. I feel like their lack of interest in a ton of press or like weird distance with fame is like, feels very cool. And like not.

Because I don't know. There are some artists and they're like, they're like, I must disappear. And like they make a big deal out of it. or they're like, I don't know, constantly talking about how they don't want to be famous. And you're just like, just go away then. You're like the lady doth protest. Yeah. I don't know.

But I agree. Like it's from the beginning, it was like, well, you know, we're just doing this. Like, it just sort of seems like they fell into it. It is really interesting. I think given 2023 where like it's like unfathomable that someone would not want to be famous. Like it's just the weirdest thing. the world this day and age when like we have so many people who are famous for doing nothing on top of it, you know?

It's almost easier to be famous these days than not. Or like famous. I mean, they're a cult band. I mean, this is like what this podcast is about. But like nowadays it's like having a presence and having a brand. Having your whole career accessible at every point is like almost weirdly. It's easier to do that than to be completely anonymous. Yeah.

It's very difficult to like maintain any air of mystery if you're in any way like a public figure. The internet doesn't forget as I learned over and over again. Okay. So they fall in love, gorgeous. Why wouldn't they look at them? And they're also like not ones for straight answers. So in that contemporary musicians book with like no citation, it's just like they had no musical background, which like fine. I can believe it for Harriet.

She's probably just one of those people who's like a naturally gifted singer. But I don't believe that this man, Dave, just like emerged one day, like, picked up an acoustic guitar and was like, here we go. That's, I just have, this is how I play guitar. I was born knowing. So I presume he had some guitar background because he's actually quite a skilled guitar player. And they're such good song, like, just from like a pop songwriting standpoint, like the idea that they just fell into this and just immediately. were like, I mean, I know that they were university students and, like, clearly very clever, but I don't know.

The fact that he hadn't been songwriting or she hadn't even been thinking about it beforehand is interesting. And also just adds to the mystery. Yeah, it's really funny. When they were asked, how did you discover you wanted to write songs together? Harriet said it was largely through a fear of not wanting to sit down in the same room together all day. That was very funny.

And David said, that makes it sound very negative. It was something I'd always wanted to do, although I never wanted to be in a band when I was younger, like many kids do. It just dawned on me gradually. Well, fuck, I want to do something I like doing. What do I like doing? I might as well write songs. Yeah, it's interesting because it's like the idea of like not wanting to be in a band. Obviously they are a band.

But they're also like the band is centered around them being a couple. It's almost like the laziest way of making a band. It's like, well, we're together. We're this romantic couple. We share this like language with each other. just put that energy into music. And it just so happens that my girlfriend has the voice of a literal angel, the voice of a lifetime that basically no one will ever come close to having.

And we'll never hear again after a certain event. You never know, Hazel, they're not dead. Oh, that's true. I shouldn't. Yeah. I don't want to curse anything on this podcast. I mean, they're welcome back at any time, but no pressure you guys if you're listening. I'm sure they're not.

They might. What if they are. Hey, guys. I must reiterate how gorgeous you are. So anyways, the interviewer asks, did it occur to you then that what you were doing might have been good? Because they were just sort of writing songs for themselves, right? And Harriet said,

it occurred to us in that we obviously enjoyed it or we wouldn't have carried on. We liked it and got pleasure out of constructing it and taking time over it, which we always do. Things don't come mentally easy to us. We have to work on them until we feel they're ready. It occurred to us it was good, but we never had any enormous confidence

that other people would like it or wouldn't like it. That's just so, like, the things don't come to us easily, mentally easily, which is a really weird way of phrasing that. It's funny because I just, it's like what I said before, there's such a casualness to everything. It's like, oh, we just, this is something we wanted to do. Da-da-da-da. We sort of fell into it or whatever. It's very casual.

But, like, that's a note about, like, how much songcraft really was a part of it. Like, they were laboring over this, even if there's sort of this air of everything. effortlessness around them. Totally. I found this like very profoundly moving, I must say, because I've been talking about the same thing in therapy. As often happens with Bandsblane, because I have no life outside of this trip. But like the idea that like sometimes you just know something's good because you enjoy doing it. I don't know if that makes sense. Like right? Because like if the experience of doing it is positive and pleasurable, like good is subjective of anyway. So it's like, well, then there's like 90% of the battle and the rest of it, like,

who cares what other people think? Like, that's up to them and God, you know? Yeah. But yeah, you're right. I think their thing seems to be like not so much that it's easy for them, but that they don't want anyone to think that they're like overwrought in the sense that they're trying to like construct a persona or image of themselves as like high and mighty hoity-toity artists. Like, they seem really concerned about that. But they also, like, clearly care very deeply, because it takes them a long time to make all this music. Like, between albums, it takes a long time. And then obviously, they've never. Yeah. It's like the stepping away from it is, is so telling in itself, because it's just like, they have such a perfect little discography, right? Like, it's,

and I don't know, I get the sense of, like, not wanting to mess it up. Just being like, okay, that's, we did it. And, like, or, or, or, stepping away when it stops feeling good. I mean, I don't want to read too much into their eventual departure from, not final departure from music. Right. They're current. Their current missing. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I just need a husband because it seems that if I had a husband, I wouldn't even have to make this podcast anymore. I don't need you guys. I just have my own little universe. And that's right, the feminists, they can be mad. I don't care. I don't want to make a podcast.

I want to have a husband who hangs the art on the wall and, like, maybe cook a thing. Call it a day. Yeah. I don't want to read the Reddit. See what you mutants are saying about me? Okay. So I don't want to get ahead of myself, but there's some interesting things about how they write the songs. But they're sitting around writing the songs.

They're doing their thing, collecting unemployment benefits, absolute kings. And then they were kind of like, wait, okay, this is pretty good. let's send some demo tapes off to venues to get some shows. Then they promptly went on vacation because they didn't want to deal with the rejection that they thought was coming. Then they get home and their phone is like ringing off the hook and someone from a place called the Vertigo Club in London was on the other end being like, hey, do you want to come play here? Like we have these like opening slots. They didn't have a name. I don't know what they wrote on the demo tapes.

They had to recruit the rest of the band, Paul Brinley. born November 6th, 1963, a Scorpio to play bass, and the aforementioned Patch Hannan, March 4th, 1966. A Pisces? I think a Pisces. Yeah. David, Dave, if you will, later told Karen Myers in Details magazine that those two guys were guys who could be trusted to flee the limelight with the band in case any sort of horrible success did crop up. I'm telling you, they've been telling us from the beginning that they were going to leave. Just nobody was listening.

The writing was on the wall. The writing was literally on the wall and in details magazine. So they come up with this name. Apparently, they wanted a name that was not bigger than the music. So like essentially something neutral that wouldn't sway a listener one way or the other. Dave said in, that's right, the Boston College newspaper, he said, the name you choose is the label for everything you do after that. That's why it's such a pain in the ass. We decided on the Sundays because we liked the sound and feel of it and because it wasn't a name that was bigger than the music.

That makes a lot of sense. You don't want people to presume something about your music before you've even had the chance to be heard. There is something, I don't know, like, maybe it is because I just know this band and I... You think it's a Tweed name? Oh, it's definitely a Tweed name, but it also just like, like, I do feel like it does conjure up what I imagine a band with that name would sound like. There's like, it's very, like, you think about a Sunday afternoon. You think about, like, lazing about. Like, maybe there's, like, the Sunday scaries looming in the distance.

There are, like, moments of, like, oh, little bits of anxiety, but, like, overall, you're just going with the flow. And so it feels like a fitting name in retrospect, but maybe I'm just loading a lot of meaning onto it because that is their name. Do you think it had anything to do with the Happy Mondays? I don't know, because it does feel like the inverse of a name like that. It's right. the same time. Yeah. We'll never know. So the first show was at the end of August of 1988.

They opened for a band called The Caretaker Race. I don't know anything about that band. Who were they? Apologies to them. Nothing happened for them. They were the first of three. I don't know what the other band was. Now, they played another show in August of 1988, the second show. Apparently, the second show was the one where Melody Maker writer Chris Roberts was in attendance. I think a couple of other writers were there, too. Ostensibly, I think, to see the caretaker race. Also, insanely, there is a live recording of this entire show. Oh, really?

Oh, sit. Yeah. I tried to get in touch with him via Facebook. I recently came back to Facebook. I love it. I don't know who anyone is. Yeah, it's honestly so peaceful. I felt like I went in a time machine where I'm like, I don't know who any of these people

are. I don't know what they're on about. I think some of these people are just people I went to high school with. Anyone I met once in 2009. Do you know what I mean? Who invited you to a party. Yeah. Exactly.

And it just feels, it feels safe. Feels nice. I tried to message him on there to get some more information, but he did not respond to me, which is fair. Did you read his review of this show? No, I actually didn't. It is? Let me just read it to you. The Sundays are the most beautiful thing I've heard since I was one year old. something like I have to state it plainly first because I know I'm going to go off into incomprehensible raptures. Ah, here it comes. It is extraordinary how frequently one has to walk down an alley full of cat piss before one reaches the finer things in life.

It is invariably worth it. This spectacle in a dungeon had been in my WizKid executive diary for two weeks because of a tape that wields more magic than any sense, the one which went all wobbly and melty in videodrome. It sounds like he heard one of the demos. One Sunday's song, Can't Be Sure, radiated out of this tape like Silver Rain and Marigold Sun, waltzed up with jack-o-lantern cheeks and veered off like, do you remember when you could write like this? This is like why I became a music writer. It lasted like two seconds because by the time I got there, they were like, bitch, you cannot put this away.

What are you talking about? What drugs are you on? Yeah, they were like, keep this for your college creative writing class, bitch. This is not how we do it here at Complex. So it goes on. It's so long. And it's basically about how this is like the best than that's ever happened to him in his entire life.

I do imagine him having that job and going to all of those shitty gigs. Yeah, walking through the alleys of Capus for sure. That was an excellent little metaphor, I thought. So then he's like sitting in some club and he's like, here's Harriet Wheeler's voice. And I don't know if I was waiting through Capus, maybe I would also feel like an angel had descended upon me. A ruby in the dust.

Gentleer than a mood. A sapphire like Sappho. A catalyst like catalyst. This is real. Anyway, this is a big deal because Melodymaker is a big deal. And this basically sets off a bidding war for the Sundays who have one small demo tape and have played two shows. It's crazy because this is exactly what they didn't want. Right.

Well, listen, God's plan, first of all. And it's also like sometimes you just troll a law through life and then traw a law and gets you places faster. They do say, I mean, it's kind of, we should all think Chris Roberts because I read in one of the interviews where Dave was kind of like, if it hadn't happened this way, essentially, like we probably wouldn't have stuck with it. Like we probably would have played a couple of shows and called it, but we wouldn't have made an album or anything. So we really all owe Chris Roberts a great debt of gratitude. They signed to Rough Trade, Home of the Smiths, and have a day. distribution deal with DGC, Gaffin, and the United States. They asked Dave kind of why they chose rough trade of everyone.

He made a funny joke about how it was close to their house, which I really enjoyed, reminded me of Stephen Malcolm was saying they signed to Matador because he could walk there from the train, and he didn't want to have to go anywhere further than where he lived. There's a book about rough trade that's quite good. And in there, he is quoted as saying he was really into the co-owner's iconic, Jeff Travis and also Jeanette Lee, who is so cool. And I wish there was like more, I wish she would write a book. She was in Public Image Limited. And she, I'm pretty sure, dated Joe Strummer and then married Gareth Sager from the pop group. She was just like a really cool, fucking woman.

Yeah. And Dave said that what appealed to us about the two of them was that they seemed incredibly straightforward. For us, Rob Freed was this immensely cool and significant label, yet there was no arrogance about them. They basically came over as a couple of unassuming music fans and that they were really nice people. These are great reasons. Also, it sounds like rough trade offered them a huge amount of creative control, which they wanted. Yeah.

Jeanette Lee says in that same book that they were like super particular about the artwork and like the touring schedule and everything, which like often a new band is not really allowed to be. They had no manager also. For a long time, they don't have a manager. It just seems like they knew exactly what they wanted. And if they couldn't get that, then they weren't going to do it. Like if they couldn't, if they couldn't get attention after a few shows, they weren't going to do it.

If they couldn't get creative control, they weren't going to do it. I've never known anything my whole life and I'm 41. They're 22 and they're just like, yep, here's what we know. So apparently Melody Maker wanted to put them on the cover, like right away. They don't have any music out. And they said no. I mean, not a bad idea. If I hadn't had any music out, I would be like, we don't want to jump the shark here.

Like, don't be insane, Melody Maker. So I feel like that's a smart. That was a smart move. You're a better person than me. I guess I just love attention so much. Yeah. I'd be like, that's right. When should I start picking outfits?

Like, what will I do with my hair? This is the other thing about the Sundays when you're like, oh, why are you the Sundays girly? Part of me was like, because I fantasize about dropping off the earth. Sure. Sure. Yeah. I mean, sometimes me too.

Again, it's the husband when I moved to a farm and I don't have to. It's much cooler to be able to be the person that's like, no, I don't need to. be on the cover of Melody Maker. But I'm not going to lie to my beloved listeners. I'm not like that. I love attention and I would have said yes. Luckily, I have no musical talent, so it's never going to come up. There's a similarly gushing sort of chit-chat about the show from Melody Maker later,

which is what mentions this information about them being offered the cover. Like it's in print. They were offered the cover and said no. Now, right? They put out a single in January of 1989. I just want to like paint a little picture about what's going on in the UK music scene. That's all that is really relevant to our purposes right now. So this is like sort of this like weird space.

Like we talked about the Smith. The Smith had broken up in 87. So there's no Smiths anymore. And then Madchester had sort of risen up in like 86, 87. So, like, we have the Hossienda club, which, you know, famously, if you guys have seen one of my favorite movies, is 24-hour party people, you know, foisted upon the members of New Order as a cash-sucking machine. It had transitioned into a, like, complete dance club, basically, by 86. Everyone is on MDMA, babe. We're doing drugs.

Okay, we're partying, we're listening to Stone Roses and the Happy Mondays and we're doing drugs. That's on one side. And then this is sort of the world that can't be sure the first single from the Sundays comes out in January. Tell me a little bit about this song. This song was just like rocketed them to fame. And I feel like, I don't know, this song really embodies what I love about the Sundays, which is just like, I think what I said before about like Morrissey being sort of bitter. I really feel like Harriet Wheeler is kind of like this every woman in a way. Like she feels like someone who I'm like talking to at a party,

like we're leaning against the wall. And she's sort of like turning to me and making like a little aside. Rolling her eyes at you probably. Yeah. Like I just think that line like I can't be sure what I want anymore. It'll come to me later. It's just like it's such a simple little line. But I don't know,

just I think embodies a lot of what's incredible about that band and the way that they write songs and the way that it does feel so like loose and casual and like something sprung from my own brain. They were sort of like a buzz band at that point, but this is the thing that like really makes them. Yeah, it really pushes them over, pushes them over the edge. It's a really good song. I get it. I'm with Chris Roberts. It's a great song. Also, insanely, the B-side is my favorite Sunday song, but they stuck it on the B-side, which is I kicked a boy. Oh, I love I kicked a boy. We'll get into the musical a little bit more when we get to the album, but I want to say that for the art of the single, they chose Joe Slee, who Smith's mega fans might know as the artist for all of the Smith's albums. Same artist, same vibe. This single hit 45 on the singles chart in the UK, which is quite high for a debut single on an indie label. So that was like pretty impressive. Even more impressive. John Peel used to do this thing called the Festive 50, where he listed his favorite.

It hit number one. That was his number one song of 1989. There was a period when I was a teenager where I was like torrenting a bunch of John Peel, festive 50 collections, which was so nerdy. No, that's so cool. But I was like, is that where I found the Sundays? Like I can't quite remember, but like, I don't know, having him behind you as a young artist was just like, to me. Number one. Just for context, number two was Kennedy by the wedding present.

Number three was debaser by the Pixies. Number four was Happy Mondays wrote for luck. And number five was once again, the Pixies, monkey gone to heaven. So Sunday's better than the Pixies is what? Yes. What this means. It takes quite a bit of time now. So this is January, 1989. they don't put out their album for almost a full year. Part of that was because all this like hullabaloo happens. That's right.

I said hullabaloo. They only had like five songs written. I made the number up. I don't know, but it's something like that. Like they only had a couple of songs that they had put on the demo and that were done and ready to go. So they had to like write the rest of the songs. And as we mentioned earlier, they like to take their time.

time. Make it good. Regardless, they do a really long interview with Melody Maker right after that single comes out. Chris Roberts says that it took him four months to get them to do it. I'm obsessed with them. I know. He goes, that's two months more than it took me to track down Patty Smith. They really can't be bothered. Like, it's so funny in this interview. David says, all we're concerned with is writing the music we like as purists. After, that, we just hope people don't try to attribute more to it all. We hope they don't read this and think, well, that doesn't look very deep and meaningful, but between the lines, I bet they are really tortured inside because we're not. We're just normal and boringly so. Yeah. I mean, I think that

normalcy is like, I don't know, when I think of them as like a cult group and I think about what I like about them and I think what other people are attracted to about them, it's like, yeah, it was a hassle to get them in this magazine and like they really held themselves at a distance from like the press and the fame and whatever. But like they're not assholes about it. Like they really does feel unpretentious to me in a way that I feel like few artists are or like artists who do this dance of like, well, I don't really want it. I don't really care about the fame or whatever. It's like.

Right. But I also, I don't know. It's just fascinating to me like I just get the sense from reading interviews with them or watching interviews with them that they have this idea that making music had. to be this like, they were just so afraid of people reading into them too much or like this idea that music had to be this like lofty intellectual. Like yeah, like artie. Yeah. Artie up your own ass pursuit.

It is interesting because they harp on a lot about being really ordinary. And I think that back to what you were sort of saying about the thematic concerns of their music. Yeah. It's not really the smiths, right? where like the Smith's, Morrissey's whole thing is a bit like, I'm the most special person in the world. And why is this happening to me? I'm being persecuted and tortured by God.

Which we've all felt that way. Yeah, for sure. Totally. Totally. I mean, plenty of shade and disrespect to Morrissey, but not for that particular thing. But I think there also, just another thing that I found fascinating later on in life is this idea of finding like the beauty and the mundane. And like that sort of encapsulates to me what the Sunday's music is about. Like this sort of like how beautiful it is to just have a normal ordinary life.

Yeah, I mean, I really feel that because, you know, when you emailed me about this episode, like I discovered the Sundays when I was probably like 15. And I have a lot of memories of like laying on my bedroom floor, which is like the, I think the ideal way to listen to music and listening to the Sundays. And like nothing was happening in my life. I was growing up in the suburbs. Like I was totally unspecial. I was going to high school. I was like, I just wanted to leave my town. And then I hear a song like hideous towns. And I hear Harriet Wheeler baking the mundane beautiful or sort of like singing about feeling stuck or singing about wanting power and not having it or like things like that and

feeling connected. Like, oh, this is like I can find moments of beauty or I can find moments of poignancy in like this stupid little boring teen life that I have for myself. And so yeah, I think I read that same Melody Maker interview. And is that the one where they talk about like the idea of the unevent. Yes. Yeah, a lot of art being about like these big. It's a momentous. Yeah. And it's like what people's life, I think Dave says something like people's lives aren't really like that. And I don't know, I think as a teenager, and I guess even now, I mean, what's going on in my life? But, like, that's just an interesting sentiment in art that I feel like is under explored.

Or maybe they're a band that captures it so perfectly in a way that most bands don't even bother to do. Yeah. It's like the opposite of main character syndrome. Yeah, side character. It's not even side character. It's like extra. Background extra syndrome. Yeah.

So, okay. So in February, they do a tour with throwing muses. That would have been a cool show to go to if I had a time machine. In March of 89, they do their appeal session, three songs. Pretty good. Then they get another melody maker write-up, a live review in May of 89. The Angel Harriet descends upon us. In photos, she's beautiful.

In the flesh, she's splendiferous. A bewitching pixie doll, a tantalizing jumble of wispy hair, nervous excitement, caldron eyes. Do you think that this was the very first manic pixie dream girl, like, citing and occurrence? I mean, she did wear a lot of overalls, and she had that beautiful, messy. Those wispy bangs, I wish, in my wildest dreams could not recreate that hair. I would love to. I think the people who wrote about her were trying to manic pixie her to death, but like.

Yeah, I don't think she, I don't think any woman is actually. That's an outside construct. No one's walking around me. Like, look at me. I'm so weird. It's interesting because it's like the band. It's not like the band was giving nothing because that's so rude. They were giving a lot.

But like they were, you had to really pull it out of them. So all the projection just seems even more insane. It really feels like projection. Yeah. I think it's funny because the projection so mirrors the music, right? Because it's not like, it's not like, for example, my bloody Valentine gave you anything either, you know? Yeah.

But because their music was a little more harsh, you dour, like I love and love, I love totally. And I do think it's like sort of magical ethereal music, just not chirpy, sparkly, the way this is. And the perception of Belinda Butcher, for example, is like so different. But it's like, how different are they? You know, like, as people, they're giving you the same thing. Also, very similar wispy bangs.

Yeah. But that's not how they wrote about her. It's also this sort of infuriated me. It's about innocence. The Sunday's picture a time before sex, before money, before worry, when life could be idyllic, could be pure, naive, and beautiful. It still could be. All we have to do is lose our chains, and there are dreams to be gained. I don't know if that's, that's not how I would read their music at all. Yeah. Well, in fairness, and to have compassion for, I believe his name is Dave Simpson. Yeah. You can't really hear what she's saying. So we have sort of

of the benefit of lyric sheets and stuff, but they didn't. So, like, there's a lot of stuff that she's saying that's quite, like, ambition, like, you said, acerbic or acidic or whatever, but they don't maybe know that. Yeah. It's also, like, I mean, you mentioned the name being Tui earlier, and it's like, that could be kind of Tui sometimes, but, like, I think about, like, a label like Sarah Records, which sort of proceeded and, like, overlapped with the Sundays a bit. And all those like jangly pop bands that were coming out of like Bristol and all parts of the UK who. Like the pastels and stuff. Yeah.

And like field mice and heavenly and like, you know, there was this sort of like innocence and sexlessness. But also if you really listen, there was like grit sometimes. And I feel like the Sundays is like sort of in that orbit. But their music feels like, yeah, I don't hear that like a world. without worry and an idyllic. I mean, I wonder if it's just like we talked about the mundane, like, if it's just the normalcy of some of these songs and like that strikes people is idyllic.

I don't know. Definitely the feeling is very. Breezy. Yeah, but breezy and sad. Yeah. When you're listening to this band, you want to wear like a heavy wool sweater. Yeah, I'm wearing a fisherman sweater. I'm standing on the moors, staring out, my wispy bangs,

fluttering about my face. I'm going to go grab a bit of fish and chips on my way home. Wow. Summer and Sundays. Perfect. Perfection. The brightest flowers of 1989 in full bloom. Glorious.

Heavenly enchantment. They really were laying it on thick, these melody maker writers. I kind of get why maybe the Sundays were like, you all okay. Like, you guys okay? Get away from me. Like, bitch, what are you talking about? If someone were about me, like that I'd be like, mm. Yeah.

So now it's 1990. Here's what's happening in the UK. The best-selling albums are Madonna's Immaculate Collection. Fantastic. Whoa. Fantastic compilation got me into Madonna forever. Absolutely. The three tenors in concert.

Damn. People in England were being boring. Elton John, the very best of Elton John's. Michael Bolton's sole provider. I mean, this is just bestselling. There's all sorts of cool shit going on. Like we mentioned, the Happy Mondays, the charlatans, Depeche Mode's Violator. Now, here's the thing.

I think we can all agree that we say it reading, writing, and arithmetic. But the name is a reference to Reading, where Harriet's from. Really? Do you think they meant it to be Reading, writing in arithmetic? Probably not. Maybe it was just a fun little joke they played on us. They seem like the kind of band to play a little joke. Totally.

They're like, you guys are saying it wrong. January 15, 1990, this was produced by the Sundays and Ray Schulman. Ray Schulman is a guy that was in a Prague rock band called Gentle Giant with his brother's Derek and Phil. It was a pretty big prog rock band, actually. They had really 10 albums. And before that, they had a little band called Simon Dupree and the Big Sound, which briefly featured a young Elton John on keyboard. Anyways, Ray Schulman was like a bass and fiddle prodigy, and he had worked on the Sugarcubes album, Life's Too Good. That's probably, I would assume, why he was tapped.

to do this. Yeah. Sugar cubes, I think you can make the comparison to Sundays and it sort of fits in. I'll tell you what. Winona Ryder, she loved this album. Oh, that makes, yeah, complete sense. Of course she did. She said, the music I listen to in the morning effects when I'm going to wear during the day, she was on a photo shoot. I also listen to music for inspiration for my characters. Like, I listen to the replacements for Heather's and Mermaids. They ask her about Edward's their hands. For Edward, I listen to a lot of the Sundays and Cocktoe twins. It's a really sad love story, really sad. Johnny plays Edward, and he has blades instead of real fingers. Anyways, there you go, guys. It's a little gift I gave you. We just talked about what was going

on in the UK, but I want to talk globally sort of what's going on with indie music, if you will allow me for the term. Please. By this time, I mean, we're obviously a year and a half short, two years, if we're being honest, from punk breaking. Nevermind has not come out yet, nor has it at number one and dethroned Michael Jackson. But the Cure and Depeche Mode, by this point, had really massive crossover success. Like starting as sort of, in America anyways, DePesh mode was an indie band. Starting as indie bands, they had become massive by 1990. Like 89 was when disintegration came out, which is like what catapulted them into like, you know, global fame. In America, Love Song is the only cure single that had reached the top 10.

And Depeche Mode, you know, 88 is when they played that huge Rose Bowl show that was depicted in the documentary 101. And 89 is personal Jesus. And 1990 is obviously Enjoy the Silence Violator. So these sort of like indie alternative were not probably using that term yet, but alternative bands had crossed over. So there was sort of an appetite. An appetite and an interest, corporate interest in investing in bands that might cross over in the same way. And I think the Sundays are sort of coming into that world, especially in America because they're on Giffin. And Giffin's doing a lot of cool stuff at that point.

I wanted to redo this one thing that Dave said in the Deseret News of Utah in 1990. Our lyrics reflect an everyday quality, unlike a lot of commercial garbage. The music and lyrics come very naturally. That's the underlying message. We're hammering this home, but I do think it's like so interesting, especially when we start getting into the songs and we talk about. the lyrics. Like, you can really hear that. Also, fun fact that I read in one of the interviews, they write the lyrics, like, together, like, line by line. Like, sometimes they'll be like, I write a line, you write a line. Isn't that nuts? That is nuts, but it... I don't know if they

write every song like that, but that is an approach that they take to writing lyrics. Like, they both write lyrics. So, like, even though Harriet's the one singing, she didn't write all the lyrics that she's singing. Like, some of them are written by Dave. They're, like, so intertwined. Like the, just like the whole project just like completely revolves around like their mind meld. Yeah. I mean, that's why people like it so much. It's like what it must be like to be part of a beautiful soulmate ship. Okay.

Skin and Bones. We love it. I love it. Gorgeous opener. Beautiful guitar sets the stage. And then here's where the story ends. That's the second single. That's your second single.

second single. That wasn't even the first single. This is probably the Sunday song that anyone who is just like a casual, even doesn't know the name the Sundays, they probably know this song, right? Yeah. I feel like, yeah. And it's like, they don't want people to think of them as being too arty and hoity-toity. But there is this like very collegiate, like clever literary streak running throughout this entire album, like, of course, with the title. They're smart. Also, Are you talking about my favorite lyric of this, which is, oh, I never should have said that the books that you read were all I loved you for? Oh, I never should have said the books that you read. First of all, bitch, you should be so fucking lucky.

May I remind listeners of the last time that I had to go on a date and the man looked me in my face and said he didn't read books? Okay? And then this woman is out here being like, oh, sorry, I just, what? If only, if only could have these sorts of champagne problems. These are the problems of an angel. Of an angel, an educated, an educated angel. But I thought that was very funny, especially because there's a very funny quote from Dave. Let me read it to you a little bit.

It was in that same interview in Melodymaker. Apparently, he had to fend off a bunch of drunk people once on his way back to Bristol. And they were like yelling at him to show them what's in the case, mate. And he said, you really don't want to know what's inside the case. And they, like, persisted and they wrenched it open and it was full of French literature. Oh, my God. That's so Wes Anderson. I never should have said the books that you read were all I loved you for.

Your suitcase full of French literature. It's also like, when people say that, like, that review that you mentioned that says, like, the world and this is idyllic. Like, I also think, like, there's a self-deprecating streak to this, too. Like, I mean, you know, people I see weary of me, like, which felt, of course, if you're imagining me at like 15 years old. Like, oh my God, same. I'm also on the outside. People don't understand me either. It's that little souvenir of a terrible year.

Oh, my God, perfect line. Yeah. It's that little souvenir of a terrible year. That song did take the fuck off. And in America, particularly, and MTV apparently played the video four times. a day every day for 16 weeks. The video is nice. It's got a Smith's album cover quality to it, like, so it's tones and colors. I just have this image of like the UK and the US coming together to like have a crush on this band. Like I feel like everyone had, is that what we're

talking about? Like, did people just like have a crush on this couple in this band? Probably. I mean, I can't, I think everyone was like, girls want to be her. You know, like this was, they all wanted to be them. Harriet said about this song, Oh dear. All I can say is that it came out automatically. It just sounds very life goes on to me rather than, oh no, my life is at an end, which a lot of people might be more willing to see it as.

Interesting. I think Can't Be Sure, which is the next song, which we talked about, which was a single, is my second favorite song on this album. It is really good. The lyrics are particularly like, and did you know desire is a terrible thing, the worst that I can find? Did you know desire is a

terrible thing? But I rely on mine. I just imagine myself on the edge of a cliff screaming. It's my life. These are really incisive lyrics for 22-year-olds. Or maybe I was just really dumb at 22. I think they're introspective, but in a way that feels youthful to me. I don't know. There's just like streaks of insecurity and like that self-deprecation that I mentioned. Do you not have that anymore? No, I'm not so, no. No insecurity whatsoever.

That's nice. One is a really good song also. Sort of like uncharacteristic, I think, for the rest of the album, but I still really like it. Yeah, it kind of feels like Harriet articulating, or I guess Harriet and if, since she didn't, you know, write every lyric. But like this idea of like wanting more power than you actually have or like these feelings of restlessness or like. like I won the war in my sitting room or whatever. Right. But your life not really reflecting the grandiosity of that or whatever. The genius annotator who did a lot of annotating on here is presuming that this is about a breakup.

And it's directed on an X. Interesting. I wonder what they were going through when they. Yeah, while they were listening to that, I know. They were like, I know what this is about. It's also a very strange annotation where for the line that she says, let me take a candle to a cellar tonight. The person implies that this is about class. There's an upstairs, downstairs situation of the upper class, underclass. And I was like, how English. I know. We're taking a bit of a downtown leap over here, babe, but you mentioned Hidious Towns that really saved your life as a teen. I also wanted to throw up outside of my hometown. No, I feel like, I mean, they were probably from New Jersey.

I'm from suburban New Jersey. Oh, my God. Not me guessing. No offense to New Jersey. Oh, you're right. You did guess correctly. For some reason, I was like, oh, did I mention it beforehand? No. Yeah. I mean, where are the hideous towns in America? They're all in New Jersey.

I'm not there all over the place if we're being honest. No, they are. You're right. You're not the only one I know. I love this song. Where's the harm in voicing a doubt is what I want to know. I know. Yeah. There's not really any sense.

skips on this album. Yeah. There's something about you're not the only one I know. It just feels very like their version of a kiss off. Right. But then it's like, you're not the only one I know. And then it's like, but I'm too proud to talk to you anyway. It's just like. I especially like the part about what's wrong with reading my stars as a known astrology buff. It's interesting because they sort of talk about not writing love songs. Yeah. And it's kind of true, right? None of these songs are really in any sense. traditional love songs. No, I think, and that's like interesting considering like the couple at the center of it and how

tied together they were, but also just like that note about introspection. Like it just, it does, it's like you listen to this album and you like enter their brain and how they sort of move throughout the world. Part of me is like, was love just too pedestrian of a subject for them? Like too musicy for them? Yeah, it seems like it might have been. And also they seem to be like particularly English in that sense of like, we're not going to like, they're going to write songs together about our love disgusting. You know what I mean?

Like it's like way too embarrassing to do such a thing. Yeah. Because like even in interviews, they like they tend to toss it off and make jokes about it and like about like leaving each other. Like it's very funny. And it does seem like as a known anglophile who has studied the people of the UK for some time, it does seem to be very English of them to behave this way. Yeah. I wonder if that's where that idea of like that one review, the Sundays come from a time before sex. I don't remember what that review said, but something about their sexlessness. But I also

wonder if it's like the lack of love songs, given that they were, there was this strong couple at the center. It's almost like another move for them of self-protection. Right. Like it's like, oh my God, you guys are already obsessed with us. Like everyone's obsessed with us. We're not going to give that to you. Like we're not, we're not going to make music about our relationship. I almost even think of it more as like, you know, if you're writing songs on your own, it's probably more natural to write love songs because you're thinking of another person and you're writing it about an object, right? But they're writing these songs together. So I think it's probably far more unnatural to address the person that, you know what I mean,

to like use them both as the object and the concept. and the collaborator, it probably just, like, is, like, an odd thing to do. Like, that's not, those weren't the concerns that they were dealing with when dealing with things together. Like, they were sort of, like, having fun with, like you said, like, me, introspection and also maybe just, like, speculative stuff about, like, what the world is like. Yeah. It definitely felt like songwriting to them was, like, a place for them to come together and

articulate a single worldview as opposed to, yeah, this is how I feel about this person. And then it would have been weird. It would have been like, I mean, who can do that? Fleetwood Mac, maybe. That's true. That's true. Good point. Fleetwood Mac, yeah.

But they were like weaponizing it. It's true. That was just warfare. It was not really having here. Yeah. I kicked a boy. Goodbye. The best.

I could have been wrong, but I don't think I was. Same. Sleigh. Slay. Yeah, this is the song that reminds me of all those like Sarah Records bands. like another sunny day, like, you should all be murdered. It's like kind of like opening on this like springy, beautiful imagery.

You know, her voice is sweet as honey. And then it's like, you know, I'm going to, I'm, this is a song about hurting someone. I kicked him boy till he cried. And feeling not bad about it. But it's also a song about feeling hurt about yourself. Because I feel like the most brilliant thing lyrically is that it's all that, right? Which is like sort of a twist because you're, it's unexpected. And then the, and I've been wondering lately just who's going to save me always gut punches me.

Like it's like, same, babe. Yeah. Also, I'd marry you, but I'm so unwell. Same. I mean, her voice is a huge part of this too. Like the way that she, I mean, she has such a beautiful voice, but like there are moments on this album where it's like, she drops kind of like a bomb. Like the way she sings like wildfire on Camp Be Sure where you're like, oh. Yeah. Doesn't she's sometimes telling she's laughing while she's singing? Like there's like, like, an, not like actual laughter, but like, like, you hear the sort of like smirkiness.

Smirk. Which I kind of really like, you know. Not even a smirk, because a smirk is a little more, a smirk has sort of more of a negative connotation. It's just more of this, like, playfulness, I guess, is the more of a right word. Yeah, yeah. It's like a winky quality where it's like, I'm saying this thing, but there's another level or it's like a, or it's like a. the lyric that you think is going in one direction, then suddenly it veers off into another. And they were just sort of masterful at that kind of songwriting. And that, to me, also does sort of back up the, like, they enjoyed it. You know, like, it's not tortured. There's not a tortured quality to it. Like, you can kind of feel that it's enjoyable for them to make this music. Are any of the songs about love? Not really. If the word wasn't in the language, there'd be a lot less songs in the world. It doesn't seem to make that much sense. And the interviewer says, could that be because you're a

steady couple and therefore less prone to extreme highs and lows. And he says, no, it seems a state that everyone thinks they're either trying to attain or wondering whether they have attained, and nobody ever really knows. And even if you think you've attained it, you don't know if it'll last till the next day. It's a word that people put a lot of their hopes into. I probably don't know what I'm talking about, but I'm really amazed that people write about love all the time when I haven't got a clue what it means. Even though, you know, I live with someone that I really like a lot or whatever. You never know what love means. Cold.

But I like a lot or whatever. I know. I do like that. I might not know what I'm talking about, sort of shrug. I feel like it's moments like that where people fall in love with this band. This was like part of a question process where they were, Chris Roberts asked them about if there's no grandiose moments in life for you, like we were saying before they're saying everything sort of banal. How can you write a song called My Finest Hour? And Harriet said, I'm sure there are some great moments in life, but that just says the finest hour I've ever known was finding a pound on the underground, which in fact happened the other day. It's not about love.

It's true. She's stunned him. She was like, dude, it was just about finding a dollar. Yeah, I know. That's not that big of a deal. But that's what I love about that song where it's like, it's like, oh, it's not just like, oh, we make songs about our mundane life. Like, we make songs about how mundane our life is. And, like, that's, like, that's. self-deprecation again. Like, this is the best thing that's happened to me is finding a dollar in the subway. Yeah, the love stuff is just, is just kind of fascinating to me because it's, their career at this point was so, not chaotic, but like they were getting so much attention and there was so much buzz and it felt like it happened. Like, their rise was just sort of like fast, even though it took them a while to put this

album out and then, I don't know, to just be so grounded and not like swayed by what they thought they should be doing or what other bands are doing is just, I think one of the reasons why people like them too. I like the line in that song in particular that's poetry is not for me. I'm pretty, I would wager money that that was a Dave line because he says it in later interviews. I hate poetry. Really, it is not like anything artsy in that French literature suitcase, babe.

There was no French poetry. Not a one. It's funny to not like poetry, but then be a songwriter. Like, it just says a lot about their approach to songwriting that the idea that poetry would be gross. Well, not gross, but like, yeah. Well, I'm sorry I had to be a broken record for the listeners, but I'll say it. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you want to disabuse yourself of any notion of the magic of songwriting, you should live with and date a songwriter and musician and then realize that they're just trying to shove words in to places that fit properly.

Yeah. The stars. they were washed right away from my eyes. I was like, I've been misled for years. This is my religion. And you guys are just like, well, that word sounded good there. I don't care if it means what I was rough. I don't think that's every songwriter, but.

I really respect artists who, like the Sundays, who I think find a middle ground between being like, I have to crawl away into the woods for six months without any electricity. city to write my, to make my art and write my music. And I'm like, I mean, writers do this, too, journalists do this too. And I'm like, okay. But then they're not like, oh, it was just nothing. Like, oh, I didn't work on it at all. Like, they're, they're like, no, it takes time. But at the same time, like, this isn't magic. This isn't. Right. They're not like the hand of God moved my Yeah. Moved my guitar. And I respect. I like that. It just feels, it feels real. It feels like,

okay, you know what this is and I respect that. We'll compare and contrast the albums, obviously, going. But I think one of the things to, like, give Dave Simpson a little credit in his, the time before sex and et cetera, responsibilities and whatever, I almost can't think of anything more idyllic than, like, graduating college, living with your boyfriend, who you're in love with, on unemployment. So we're talking real no-job hours, babe, and just sitting around. and making music and like having fish and chips. I really like fish and chips,

I always think about this is what the people in the UK are always eating. I'm sure they eat other things. The Sundays probably only ate fish and chips. Like, it's going to have that sense of, that's a magical womb of a time. You never get back, right? And I guess you can't know that when you're 22, right? And that almost makes it even better because you don't know that it's fleeting. You just know that, like, this is this, like,

this beautiful slice of your normal life and this is what it is. And, you know, I presume they weren't sitting around like wringing their hands about what they were going to make of their lives and like, I better go get a job. That to me is a lot of like what I hear in this album. Yeah. It's very like Sally Rooney hours, although Sally Rooney's characters are probably a little more. No, they're having a rough time. Those people are a little more neurotic, I think, than what we're dealing with in the Sundays. I will say last thing, joy, absolutely bangs. Yeah.

Banger, slaps. That song is amazing. Yeah. Let's talk about the reviews. Great reviews. Rolling Stone gave it four stars. Pretty much everyone compares them to the cocktail twins, which is fair. It's fair, but it's also like, I love both of those bands, but like the cocktoe twins just feel like so alien. They're literally from Mars.

Are you reading about the Monday? No, babe. You're not even speaking English. That's A. And secondly, whatever it is you're singing about has nothing to do with finding a dollar in the subway or eating efficient chips. No, I do wonder how much of this was like... Gendered. You said it.

No. I mean, like, this... I mean, listen, there are similarities in their vocals for sure. That sort of whaling. Sometimes you don't know what they're singing. Yeah. Yeah. But for me, I'm like, one of these people is in the suburbs on Earth.

And like you said, the other band is literally in March. And also oriented around a couple. I mean, there's a lot of similarities. True, true, true. Yeah. Also sort of shunned the fame and spotlight in a way, you know, like definitely did it on their own terms. And it's good. I get the comparison.

I mean, you're a music writer. Sometimes you just got to do what you got to do there, you know. They also talk about 10,000 maniacs and everything with the girl in the review. So spreads it around to other women who sing. Entertainment Weekly, A-minus. Spin does an interesting thing that I only want to bring up because it's another sort of, I don't want to say forgotten because that's not the right word, but underrepresented UK sort of cult band, they do a dual review and it's House of Love, who I really love. In a gun, in a sitting lonely on a plastic chair. Not a lot of people talk about them, but they were at least enough in the zeitgeist that,

they were included in here. It was a sort of an alternative rock band, romantic. They were a creation records band. They started it because they saw the Jews and Mary Chan. That gives you any indication.

It's a good review. They say reading, writing, arithmetic is undisguised gossamer jubilence. For this, their debut album, The Sundays, do one good trick ten different times. They hold back,

they stall with a mildly funky intro or some crisp perky strumming while singer Harriet Wheeler sighs pouts and coily builds to her glass-shattering chords. He's not wrong. Yeah. And it's, it works. It's like if you like it, you're going to love it. Like, if you like this one song, you're going to love the whole thing. Exactly. You could technically say this about their entire discography, but for me, that's just like good world building. Like, that's good, just compact. Like, they had a sound, they had a style, and they knew it so well. Awesome. Lona. with Eidel Rey. She's done this for 10 albums and I will take 10 more. I love it. I'll watch her do

that cartwheel every time. That's what I'm saying. Okay, here's what's happening post reading, writing in arithmetic, 1990, 1992. They're the second coming in England, babe. They are massive, okay? Journalists are losing their minds. These like crazy things, you know, here's what Dave says. We're at a very early stage to be called important. If someone turned around two, you and said, you know, you're an absolutely brilliant journalist. Don't you realize you're important? I'm sure you wouldn't go, no, no, I do realize I'm incredibly important. And I don't think it would just be modesty preventing you from doing so. You just think, well, I'm glad you liked it. They're the exact perfect band for this shit to happen to them because you're like,

this is the normal. Like, we have one album out. Like, calm down. Okay. So they toured England and February of 1990 opening band, Galaxy 500, would absolutely pay $1 million to be able to travel back and go to one of those shows. Time Machine Now. They played Japan before they ever played America, which I thought was pretty interesting. That is interesting. Yeah. They played their first show in America, June 26th, 1990 at the 930 Club in Washington, D.C. I'm not totally sure, but I'm pretty sure Yolotanga opened.

I think Yolotanga opened for this whole American tour. What? They definitely opened for them when they played in New York City two days later at the marquee. Evo Watts Russell, who I'm deeply obsessed with and would like to make a documentary about in which I go and find him. It's called Finding Evo. And I end up on his doorstep wherever he's fucked off to, I think, in Arizona. And I go talk to him. So if any funders are out there.

But anyways, he was at the show. And he said to Dave, whether you like it or not, there are already groups out there desperately trying to recreate the sound of your album. So that was interesting. They tour America for the whole summer. Here's what Dave said about Jewish America. Because we haven't got a manager, it was hard in America to control what was going on. You haven't got a fucking clue what they're going to do for you in, say, Texas or Los Angeles. There's a definite temptation for American record companies to feel that excess is subtlety.

For example, in Dallas, they were promoted with this slogan. See the Sundays on Sunday with ice cream Sundays. That's a real thing that happened. Harriet said, we said, we can't. do that, it's naff. But the day before, and if you pull a gig like that, then you're the ones that come across as stroppy wankers. People came up to us at the gig and said, why the fuck are you doing that? That's crap for you. In Boston, we had a showdown with a radio DJ who wanted us to do IDs to say, hi, we love your show and the people listening to it. When we didn't want to do it, this guy

who sends apologized went, who the fuck do you think you are? You're just shit. Don't waste my time. Since then, we've spoken to throwing muses in Sonic Youth, and they've told us that they do those things all the time. So it's more a question of us just getting used to what's the norm in America. Maybe it's the way you've read it, but I feel like that is kind of like a dig at throwing muses in Sonic. Like, oh, well, maybe this is what they do. I think it's a dig in America. It's a dig in America. Yeah.

This ends up having, I think, if I can speculate a lot to do with what eventually pushes them right on out of doing anything, which is the had to do all these like meet and greets and stuff and they hated it. They loved playing shows and they loved making music, but they hated all this other stuff that they had to do. Dave said, I don't think we were born to promote ourselves, but there should be room for all sorts of bands. It's not black and white. The case of either, hey, I want to be big and famous or I want to be reclusive and not interested in the top 10. If we're not comfortable running things will stop. Sometimes you fall into the trap of being so packaged and so manipulated by the record company that the band becomes the least important thing.

The negative side of what we do is that we're quite busy outside of writing. Yeah. I mean, and they're saying all these things. This is their first album. This is their first tour. I just think, like, that sort of self-awareness around packaging and what people want from you, like, that attitude to me feels bigger than music. Like, that to me feels like a, I don't know, trying to like renegotiate your relationships

with people all the time is like something to me that is, weirdly relatable even for a, I read these interviews, I hear these quotes and I'm like, they feel like normal people, which is in the music industry can be rare. Yeah, I do think it's really interesting. And I think we've like the tipping point has obviously gone way to the other side where now we just unfortunately have like a litany of famous people who have no vocation. I mean, the vocation is being famous. Which is actually like truly, if I think about it too long, like my. brain breaks. Yeah. Or you have artists where it's just like, it's not even really about the music

that they're making anymore. It's just like the brand. Right. And the makeup and the, you know, or you have like grouper, you know. Yeah. Out in the woods. God bless. Yeah. Just still being like, I don't care what you guys are doing. I want to make this music and do it what you want. They did this interview, like I said, with the Boston College newspaper in 1990. And Dave said, we don't want to become a big commercial pop band. We're not elitist. And sure, we'd like to be heard by lots of people, but not by being a sell-out pop band. We spent ages telling Geffen to push the record in the alternative in college markets,

really emphasizing that when they wanted to release a lot of singles to MTV and chart radio. Then after the record did really well in those markets, it turned out that chart radio wouldn't take the risk on us anyway, and we're glad. Reading, writing and arithmetic has a real chance of going gold, selling 500,000 copies, which it did. It did go on to sell half a million copies without us being a little pop band played on all the crap stations. If we had the chance of selling a million records via the pop charts and half a million through alternative radio, we would have gone for the latter anyway. I have a real fear of what that kind of success does to the music. Fame would be more of a hassle than anything else. Again, bitch, they've been telling you since day one. Hello.

Nobody listening. I'm in Boston College newspaper, probably not widely read. But so they do that. They tour. They have to do the station IDs and meet and greets and all this stuff. And it's very busy. I mean, they literally, like we said, went from being like unemployed and eating fish and chips to world tour. And so then in 1991, they basically don't do anything.

They don't really play shows. They sort of just work on the next album because they've said, they've said multiple times that they don't write music on tour. It's not their style. Another thing happens in 1991, which is, that Rough Trade Records goes bankrupt. Yeah. So the band signs with Parlophone Records.

A side effect of the Rough Trade bankruptcy is that this debut album goes out of print in the UK and stays out of print until 1996. Insane. It's like a part of them was kind of disappeared for that. Right. Like maybe they were stoked. They finally get a manager in 1992. and they release in the fall of 1982 the single goodbye off of their next album. With the B-side being the cover of a little song called Wild Horses.

Itty-Bitty song. Itty-Bitty song. 1992 is just funny how much has changed, right? If you listen to this program, you already know. But punk is broken. I mean, between 1990 and 1992, it's crazy what's that. alternative music has really swelled up. It's not the way that people think of it now.

I always joke about this with a friend of the pod, Jessica Hopper, where everyone thinks like the 90s was all Allison Chains and fucking Pearl Jam when actually it was all life is a highway and Billy Ray Cyrus and Garth Brooks. You know? Actually, that's what it was all about. Eric Clapton, the unplugged, really had a chokehold on the fucking early 90s. All that, to be said, you know, Nirvana had ousted Michael Jackson. from the charts in 1992.

Alternative grunge, et cetera, is a big deal by 92. What do the Sundays release? Blind. October 19, 1992. It was produced by the Sundays and Dave Anderson, who had previously produced a young marble giants album called Colossal Youth, but also mostly worked as an engineer on stuff like, I think Jesus and Mary Jane and stuff like that.

What do you think of Blind? Blind is my least favorite Sunday's record. I still really like it, but if I had to rank, if we're doing rankings, it's number three for me. I definitely think it is a weaker album than reading, writing, and arithmetic. Like, I think, one, I would say that I feel like their lyrics are a lot less specific and, like, more impressionistic than the first album. I mean, they're not like a super, you know, autobiographical band or whatever, but, like, it feels a lot, like, there were so many little moments where I felt like I was in that band's head on that first album. album. And here I'm like, eh, I definitely, I definitely see the Cocto Twins comparisons a lot more with this record, like a song like Love, I feel like feels almost like like a straightforward dream pop

song. I love that song. It's really good. It's like their sound didn't change that much, but it's in those little details. It seems like they took more risks. Like they sort of branched out, You know, like, for example, like a song like Life and Soul. Well, it gets on some like Enya core. Yes. It's like a vapor. Yes. Yeah. Like it's, it's very cool and weird and like, yeah.

And like, oh, this is unexpected. It's funny because I was thinking, and I might be totally wrong, but I was like, it almost feels like this album was a little early where like if it had come out in like 97 in the like Lilith Fair, you know, world, it might have been. more well received? That's a good point. I don't know. Your context about like how much music, alternative music had changed by 92 is just... Nobody was checking for this shit.

Do you know what I mean? This was not the vibe. The vibe was like, except, you know, gin blossoms did also come out in 92 with New Miserable experience, which I suppose you could sort of, I will. I don't know if you could, but I will make the comparison because that doesn't jingles. pop. Yeah. Yeah. It's jangly, but there's like a delicateness to a lot of this music that like maybe you're right would have been more popular if it had come out later. Yeah. And also the Jen Wassums were like very clearly like singing songs about like, you know, love songs and drunk songs and they

present it as grunge with their like finals and stuff. So it's sort of like swept on in there. Whereas like the Sundays were like not about that life. But I do think it's a really good album. And I, I have to say, like, I'm guilty of the same thing that critics are often guilty of, no offense, Hazel, where the album that comes after the most amazing album is not really fairly reviewed of its own merits. It's compared. So it's like, had I heard it on its own, I probably would have, like, a different experience of it. Because, like, when I, like, went back and listened a bunch of times, I was like, God Made Me is an incredible song that I had sort of forgotten about.

It's really good. And what do you think? That song slaps, bitch. That's amazing. That should have been on the radio. Yeah. What do you think about? I think I said this before, but like it's, it is such a feat to me that like this band made three albums that are just so solidly good.

Like there, there's never a moment on any of their albums where I'm like, no, not this song. Which is like, I think rare. I think is rare. And I don't know if it's because they are just doing that one trick to borrow that one critics phrasing many times. But I just think it's like, I don't know, we talked before about like, oh, they're, you know, these were just 22-year-olds and they just kind of got thrust into this swirl of a career, but like, I don't know, they're good editors.

Like, they're good. Totally. I think that's a really good point. I think they are really good editors. They might be too good of editors and we'll get into that later. Yeah. But I definitely think they're, I mean, it took this long because I think they were taking their time editing and really honing the songs.

And we know for a fact there's at least one song from 1990 days that never came out. And there might be more. So it is interesting. I will say that they said that they had been listening to Kind of Blue for the first time during the making of this album. And Al Green, also My Bloody Valentine. Chinese music, the song Untangled by J. Genesis and of course sticky fingers by the Rolling Stones, which is where they got wild horses.

Here's a very extremely hilarious thing that Harriet said, though, about that. She said, when we decided to do wild horses, we listened to the rest of sticky fingers. And to be honest, it's only got two good songs. The rest of it really didn't sound that brilliant. We could turn out an album a year if we were writing as quickly as it sounds like they're writing. She dragged them straight to hell, bitch. Oh, my God. Sticky fingers, bitch.

Maybe two good songs. Maybe two tracks. What do you think about their cover of that song? It's fine. Yeah. Like in my like mental rolodex of the all-time best covers, I don't think it cracks my top 10. But it's good.

It's pretty. It's pretty. It kind of feels like for me like the movie trailer trope where it's, I mean like Wild Horses, the original is a sad, soft moving song. It's not like they radically change that. But I. No, I know exactly. I were talking about the word of the most annoying. friend in music where they're like, what if we take...

There's two... This one is good, and I think I'll give it the credit because it's one of the first. And then Tori Amos-Jing smells like teen spirit. Allowed. Yeah. Hello. Hello. Hello.

The rest of them? Fucking keep it, bitch. We don't need it. We really don't need it. We don't need it. No one asked you. But I think while the horse is nice, it does really... I think they would agree.

Like, I don't think they're proudest moment either. I think they just like... needed to round out the album and they were like, we've never really done covers. Why not this one? It sounds nice. Yeah. It's fine. They don't get as much press. Because the press wasted all their breath on that first single and album. They blew their load, if you will, if you'll allow me. This album still did commercially pretty well. Like, it peaked at number 15 on the UK chart and hit 103 on the Billboard 200, which was nothing to sneeze at. And it also sold half a million copies. So it's not like it was like a failure, you know.

Yeah. It is funny. This guy, in timeout, he said it pretty well. He was like, I don't agree with this first part of the statement, but he said, The Sundays were authors with the biggest disappointment of 1992. Their second album, Blind, their first for a major label, failed to live up to expectations. But then it never really stood a chance. This wasn't second album syndrome. According to myth, everybody's second album just have waffles. Oh, so does have wattles. That's a British word about what that means. And get stuffed. So much is bad timing. Blind took three years to appear, three years during which the Madchester phenomenon came and went, rave culture came and stayed, and the Morrissey industry found time to put out three whole albums, fueling widespread disbelief that it was all over for the English. He's really right, right? Because it's like, it's crazy how fast things change. And in 92, if you weren't, like, Manchester was over. And if you weren't angry, be it grunge or even PJ Harvey's drive comes out in 1992, incredible. incredible British output

or really alt like Sonic Youth put out dirty that year or pavement slanted and enchanted. It didn't really fit in anywhere. They didn't fit into the alt indie category with this music and they didn't really fit in the grunge. It just

didn't have a place. Yeah. Which I think is like obviously again like adds to their cult status. I mean part of me is like I wonder if all the things that we talked about about that first album, like the press and having to tour in the way that they did

and just like the gaze and like the glare on them at all times. Like, I don't know, they could have just like pivoted wildly. And like I could have seen them being a band that's like, well, we don't want to do the same thing again. Right. But they kind of did. Like you mentioned risks and there are risks, but they're very quiet.

They're very quiet. Yeah. It's like a small expansion more than anything. Yeah. I have to presume they didn't give one single fuck one way or the other about time out, thinking it was the greatest disappointment. They were like, way. They're like, time out, the biggest music magazine in the world.

They were like, we literally don't care. Here's one of the worst sentences. Thank you. You're welcome. Here it comes. It's actually much later in time, which makes it even worse on trouser press. The band's artistic growth on blind. isn't all for the better. While increased confidence and ambition make Wheeler's singing more

technically accomplished, her development from adolescent wonder to adult aplomb deducts some of the band's gravity defying magic. That's fucked. Just say you're a pito and go. Yeah, I just, just say you don't like adult women and go. Like, I mean, there is something. I liked it better when she sounded like a child is what that said. This is a thing, too, like you mentioned before about like, oh, it's hard to hear what she's saying, right? Which is totally fair, totally fair. But like, once you do learn what those lyrics are, once you listen closely, like, it isn't just flowers and soda pop and whatever. And I do think that across the Sunday's discography, like, her voice does get clearer.

And the things she's articulating do get clear. And, like, to me, there's a connection between, like, people who only heard innocence and maybe only heard idealism because maybe they couldn't hear her. But, like, I'm like, maybe you weren't, like, listening to. Like, maybe you really weren't listening to what those songs were about. But that's insane. That's crazy. And it's also, like, it's interesting to think about all of those artists you just mentioned and anger. And, like, I don't know.

there are more sides to an artist than just like being a child and being a grunge. It's just like a gross, gross misreading of the situation as far as I'm concerned. I wanted to read you one little thing that Harriet said about the lyric writing since we're talking about it. And I think it applies very much to the first album and probably still to the second and third. They asked them a lot about, you know, how you write songs and the process and stuff. and she said, kind of like what we were talking about a little bit earlier, about like how they write them together. It comes from two minds, two people who've lived without knowing of each other's existence for 20 years. They're all about something about being a person who's alive and around now.

It's about the present, right? They're not about being rock stars, which we aren't, or being love-struck teenagers, which we aren't. They're just little bits of what feels true. I loved that. They're just little bits of what feels true. Yeah, it's like that thing I said before about like Harriet being like the person at the party who's like sort of turning to you and talking like it feels accessible even without the like, you know, we're not rock stars. Like I love that line on more from this album where she's like, peace love now what. Like don't go telling me you've had them.

Like I'm like, that's the Sundays I love, those sort of like little asides. I think that really struck me where I was like, oh, it's so true. Like the concerns of these songs or the concerns of like being in the present. The mundane is being in the present, right? Like you don't really like fantasize about the mundane in the future, nor do you like romanticize it in the past. Like it really is a concern of the present. And all the like really specific details sort of add to that feeling of being present. Like I found a pound.

Yes. You know, the subway. And like all these sort of like, there's a really. funny part where the interviewer is like, isn't any writing cathartic and aren't the lyrics about your life? And Harriet goes, yeah, but well, is your life cathartic? The guy's probably like, I guess not. It's like, why do you think that musicians somehow have like this like magical, meaningful life that the rest of us don't have, you know? Well, not even like magical and meaningful life. Like, I think there's something that people think

happens. It's like that thing I said before about like people. People. who say they have to go to the woods and like write their art or like the idea of like I'm writing about my life in a song and like for some reason the transmission of life experience into song makes it is supposed to make it into this like grand experience or like oh songs are only for grand experiences and like I think that's what trips people up about the Sundays where it's like they're trying to read their music like tea leaves or they're trying to there are moments of profound beauty and insight in these songs. But like it really just comes down to like, I'm talking about my life.

I'm talking about my day and the little things that happen in it and the little thoughts and feelings that I have. And that's good on its own. It doesn't have to be like I'm singing about the end of the world or the most magnificent love I've ever experienced or whatever. Right. I mean, I think, you know, there's a place for everybody, all kinds of songwriting. I like a, there's a club, and if you like to go, there could be somebody who really loves you.

Would you go and you stand on your own and you leave on your own? You go home and you cry and you want to die. Also, honestly, a bit mundane, but really hits. A little more hand-rady, but, okay, so there's like barely any reviews of this album. Robert Criscoe, he gave it a bomb. He didn't like it. Thanks, Bob. Okay.

Post this album, they tour in the UK with a band called Butterfly Child as the opener, unfamiliar. But all the shows were sold out. So they still are really functioning on the buzz and goodwill of the first album. You know what I mean? Yeah. They tour Europe in 93, in January and February. They go toward the U.S. supported by Luna. Must have really gotten along with old Dean Wareham over there.

Also, all the shows were sold out. They play Japan again in March. They're on tour basically like the first half of the year in 93. They host 120 minutes in 1993 and it's extremely adorable. But it's also very cool because they mention so many bands that you're going to be like, Homsd. And it really makes you think that there was so, the 90s were so insane. There were so many bands and so many of them were signed to majors and you will have never heard of half of them.

It's cuckoo. In 1993, they toured the U.S. in June, with matter rose, but they cancel the last three dates due to exhaustion and homesickness. Of course they did. Yeah, they were like, that's enough, thanks. They go and vacation in Thailand over the summer. So they come back to England from Thailand, refreshed, rejuvenated. They build a recording studio in their home.

Their life, we're done with this. We're going to make music at home. Then they go kind of radio silent. The only thing that happens for them in 94 is that, bizarrely, insane. Budweiser uses their cover of wild horses in a TV commercial that is so insane. It's literally just the song and imagery of horses. And then at the end, there's a Budweiser logo. No talking. No people. That feels very 90s. That feels very like, we're trying to sell you beer, but we do not want you to know that we're selling you beer. And we want to get your attention. And we want you to think you're watching

like an art movie. It seems a little lofty for Budweiser, like, no offense. Oh, totally. Aren't they the ones with the frog? Budwise. Isn't this, like, sort of like pickup truck core? Then all of a sudden we're like, we see you. We see you indie hipsters.

Yes. We have a Budweiser for you too. It's just another moment in their career where, like, the response to the music doesn't, to me, match what the music really is. Like, I would have never thought, like, butt. Yeah. We're talking about a Budweiser commercial band. Apparently we are. I don't know a lot about royalties and stuff like that.

Neither. But I'm curious if they made good money because they didn't write the song. But they still get, I mean, I'm sure they would have made much more if they had to compose a song. They still get money because it's their rendition of it. Just saying, I hope that floated them right along for the next couple of years. In February of 1995, they welcomed their first child, a daughter, whose name I will not tell you, even though you can find it on your. your own because I just feel like there's a lot of weird freaks out there who are probably going to like do weird freaky shit and I don't want them to do it at my hand.

Respect. So they have their child. They take their time. They're just being parents. They're working on their little album. It's lovely. So it's not until 97 that they put out the next single. So it's been five years since they've released music.

And they come back with a motherfucking bang, bitch. Don't you feel summertime? That to me is like. that's Budweiser commercial That's what I'm saying. It is iconic. Shock to the system. This is the album where I feel like they're taking risks.

Like this is, they're like, it's groovy. There's horns. They're building out that world of theirs, like as in little increments as much as they can. Let me tell you what summertime was based on. It's going to blow your mind. Did you know this? That it was based on or inspired by the fact that some of their friends, had joined a dating service.

No, I did not know this. God, this humiliation has run long and far. I mean, they didn't have to be on hinge, nor do I anymore because no. But how horrible, if it was me and my most gorgeous couple friends who were just blissfully in love, I just had a child, massive success with their music, decided to take my dating woes and write a little song about it. Lawsuit. No, I'm just kidding.

But yeah, that's what it's about. So, like, the lyrics, like, romantic Piscian seeks angel in disguise. I wonder if it was about Patch because he's the Pisces. Chinese-speaking girlfriend, big brown eyes, liver puddlian, I don't know how to say that word, lady, sophisticated male, hello partner, tell me love can't fail. Also, really, I feel like, before it's time. Oh, totally. Like, prescient, prescient, prescient. I think they were sort of questioning the idea.

that you could find love this way. That's so rude of them, though, because they are, like, to echo your point about, like, I'm personally offended. Like, oh, no, you can only meet the love of your life, like, walking the stacks of your old-timey library at your... Rolling along your suitcase full of French literature. Oops, it opened. What's this?

My French literature? It fell out. Oh, you like French literature, too? I'm going to try that. I'm going to hit Trader Joe's with a little rolly suitcase full of French literature. books. And if someone's like, what's in your suitcase? I'll be like, oh, this old thing? You're like putting frozen pizzas in your, in your Somerset mom. That's all. Do you like Somerset mom? I'll report back on how that goes. This charts really well. It's their most successful song to date on the UK

chart and also hits a top 10 spot in the U.S. alternative rock chart. I don't think I knew that, that that song was that successful compared to their other stuff. I remember it. It wasn't as successful in the U.S. as Here's where the story ends. Or even Love, Love hit number two on the alt rock charts. But I distinctly remember this song being on alternative radio on K-Rock and stuff. I really, and I remember that here's the story, I don't

remember love as much, but this one I like is inescapable. It was like so on the radio. And it had a video on MTV. I remember that too. Again, because things have changed once again. Shania Twain, come on over. 97.

Spice Girl Spice World. Savage Garden? Gorge. A lot's going on. Sugar Ray. You know what I mean? We've changed a little bit into the vibes of shift them. People aren't angry anymore.

No, they're fatigued. They're fatigued from grunge. They're tired. They want a little sparkle, a little magic, a little... They want spice in their life. Let's go, girls. Yeah. They want some spice in their lives.

Except for Elliot Smith, who put out either one that year. He was not looking for any... Thank you. Any spice in his life. He was doing his own thing. He was doing his own thing. Drink a baby, stay up all night. So they put out static and silence, September 22nd, 1997.

They produced it themselves. Here is what they were listening to around that time. I guess Dave said they had mellowed somewhat with age. I mean, they're full on parents now. Yeah. I mean, they're not that old, but they're probably like, I don't know, late 20s. They've been listening to a bunch of Van Morrison. And even that their song, folk song, quotes Van Morrison's.

and it stoned me. Hmm. Yet it's stormed made from my soul. They also had been listening to a lot of Frank Sinatra, 1960s French film music, the Johnny Mitchell album, Hegera.

No regrets, coyote. We just come from such different sets of circumstance. If we start with reading, writing in arithmetic, which for me is, like, very acidic and can be self-deprecating, and, like, there's some humor, and then

by the time we get here, I do hear the mellow. I do feel like they've softened. Yeah. There's a lightness here to them that I feel like isn't present on those first two albums. Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think there's probably something about the ease of having taken the break, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

Their preoccupations are a little bit different. Folk song is gorgeous, I must say. I love that song. Yeah. She? Did you know that it was engineered and mixed by Nigel Goddridge? No. I did not know that. Longtime Sundays fan. On all music, he has a composer credit, but I'm not sure that I trust that, maybe. But he definitely engineered and mix that song. It's the only one that he worked on famously, producer of Radiohead and many others. But kind of a big deal. But he was a big Sundays fan. A lot of massive people in music are Big Sundays fans. Yeah, I wonder if it has to do with like just how compact they are as artists. Just like, I mean, we've talked about like, this is a risk, but like they're not really big risks.

Like the dedication, like picking a lane and just being dedicated to it and just not being flashy. Yeah. I think it's also there like there's a subtlety that sort of hides the brilliance of the way that they create this like mood for. you within a song. It's really powerful and it's not easy to do. They make it seem easy. And because it's not like hit you over the head, not a lot of bands can do that. No, not a lot of bands can do that. And also just like, I don't know, just them talking about like the mundane or just like demystifying a lot of their musical or artistic process. It's like, I don't know. There's just, I have a lot of respect for just putting in the work, like just doing the work. Like, it's not flash.

It's... Yeah. Another flavor? A slapper. A banger, if you will. If you'll allow me. Yeah. Monochrome, gorge.

This is a beautiful album. I love it. Do you want me to blow your mind? Do you know what this album was reviewed by? No. Pitchfork. Oh, gosh. Wow.

Extremely early pitchfork. Written by Ryan Shreiber himself. Oh. 8.8. I've said it. before, and I'll say it again. The Wayback Machine is a dangerous thing for a woman like me to have, but I haven't. He said after a five-year absence, the Sundays have returned from oblivion. Now let's face it. A lot of things can happen in five years. Hell, I'm five years older. Feels like it would go without

saying. But when you heard about this record, I know what you were thinking. Uh-oh, here's where the story ends. Not so, good fellow. This is probably why they took it off the website. Static and silence shows more integrity and talent than any of the Sunday's previous efforts. David of Urins, a far better guitarist and songwriter, while Harriet Wheeler croons, see, this is rude. They both write the songs. Harriet Wheeler croons her most beautiful lyrics ever. It's actually a really great interview on MTV where they talk about this. They're like, yeah, it's really weird.

Like, people will ask us, like, they'll come to David and be like, so did you go, like, purposely seek out a female vocalist? And he's like, what? I didn't seek out any, but this is my girlfriend. And we made the music together. And she happens to be a female who sings. and I happen to be, she wasn't singing a male guitar player. He's like, he's like, he's not even like, he's just perplexed by the, by the presupposition that it was so manufactured and that she doesn't write the music.

It's a good, good little interview. Anyways, he says, so while you're in the bedroom with Jewel and Fiona Apple, I'll be listening in style with the best Sunday's record yet. In the bedroom. Is he trying to say that Fiona Apple is bad? Uncool? I don't know what's out mainstream? Yeah, I'm perplexed by In the bedroom.

Like, we're on these streets listening to Fiona. We're at the club listening to Fiona. We're at the club listening to These hands are small I know, but they're not yours. They are my own. That's what we'd be doing. Anyways, A.8 is a pretty good score. Entertainment Weekly gave it an A-minus, and Rolling Stone gave it three stars. Here's what happens from 1997 on.

They do an interview on MTV in 97 where they host, I think they host 120 minutes, in which Harriet reveals that her favorite, she had to pick their favorite videos. And her favorite video is the one for Pearl Jam's Ocean, Harriet Wheeler, known Pearl Jamstand. And David chooses just by Radiohead. Perfect, no notes. Also, September of that year, they play summertime on top of the pops. I think that was the first time they were on top of the pops. And if there isn't earlier time, I couldn't find it.

That's kind of crazy. They might have been asked and said no. It's very possible. That would be very them. Very them. Yeah. They tour more throughout the year. And then guess what?

Last show ever. December 11, 1997 at Union Chapel in London. They never cut back. That show is also on the internet in its entirety. I'm going to watch it like I'm decoding the zodiac letter. That's basically what I did. Oh, but the story is not. over. Here's where the story ends? No, babe. We're not over. Because April of 2014,

Adam Pitluck, a massive Sundays fan, and the editor of American Way, the in-flight magazine for America Airlines, somehow, we don't know how, Huntsdown Harriet and Dave, who have not been in the public eye for, what is that, 20-something years? I can't do math, but yeah. Whatever, 18 years, 17 years, 17 years these people have not been heard from. And American Way magazine gets them to do a brief email interview. Amazing. I'll read it for you. You've already read it.

Hazel, but I'll read it for the listeners. American Way. Looking back on the early 90s when the college radio stations discovered reading, writing, and arithmetic, and MTV started airing the video to here's where the story ends, was global stardom what you thought it would be? They said, global stardom might be a touch out of our league, but hey, Hey, thanks for suggesting it. No, our first taste of anything fame-related was when we started getting recognized in London.

And given that things had kicked off for us in such an overnight fashion, this felt a little freaky initially. So we decided to clear off to Barcelona for a few days to get our heads around this new change in our lives, only to find the same thing occurring there. For a brief paranoid period, you can think the whole world is following your every move. Things move on pretty quickly in the music industry, though. And there's always some up-and-coming act to take the spotlight, and what with gradually adapting to our newfound minor celebrity status, life overall didn't alter significantly. Honestly, I fully understand this as someone who was recently recognized at Target.

Oh, my gosh. Recognized, if you will. But people move on really fast. Okay. So the next question is, good music can transport you back to a particular place in time faster and with more clarity than any Stargate ever could. When I play any song off of any of your albums, I'm immediately back in high school, awkwardly asking out the girl I had a crush on or hanging out with my buddies or typing college applications. Do these songs bring you back to a particular place? They said, as writers, the odd thing is

that you're as likely to think back to the place where the songs were actually composed as to any location or situation that inspired them. So in the case of Can't Be Sure, and here's where the story ends, in particular, these songs transport us to the minuscule boiler room attached to the equally cramped, rented flat we were living in before our careers took off. At the time, despite the industrial noise of the hot water system and the frequent burglaries, this felt like the perfect writing environment. And virtually all of what ended up on our first album originated there. Not very poetic, but there you have it.

The last question from American Airlines was, if I can get American Airlines to fly the band to any point in the world for a one-off reunion concert, where would it be? And can we do it? He shot his shot, Bib. And they said, this is a rather tough one. Touring in the U.S. in Japan, for example, was always great. but having already been to these countries, we might have to think further afield. Aruba and Fiji definitely appeal because of the potential snorkeling,

as does Bultra and the Galapagos for the wildlife. The contentious bit, unfortunately, is the reunion gig. First, let's see if the music we're currently writing ever sees the light of day, and then we can get on to the enjoyable globe-trotting meets concert planning stage. Beyond that, of course, we might have to look at whether any of these destinations would have an audience for the Sundays over and above the odd tortoise or triggerfish. Nice to think about, though. Confirmed the Sundays have been writing new music.

In 2014. And that was... Well, I have more. I've done a journalism. Okay? Two journalism. Okay. So then October of that same year,

aforementioned comedian and children's book writer David Bediel and best friend of Dave went on the BBC, Radio 6. and said the following. They're doing music, but whether they ever put that out there, I have no idea. They're the most paranoid people about actually putting stuff out there. There are two songs that have been played live but that never appeared on tracks. One is called Something More. That's the one I was telling you was from 1990.

It's amazing. It's very cool. Sounds more like it could have fit right on reading, writing arithmetic. And then there's one called Turkish, which I can't pinpoint where it's from, I think later because it's so weird and cool, like really spare, almost a little Bjorkish. They played at their last ever show in London. 2020, Pat Chanon went on the C-86 podcast. You remember C-86, the 1986 enemy tape, you know, Velocity Girl, Primal Scream,

Soup Dragons, Pastel, all that stuff. Anyways, this podcast, they interviewed him for a very long time. He said something very cool, actually, about how they made all their demos with drum machines and they really liked the sound of it. So when he became the drummer, they asked him to sort of make it sound a bit drum machining. Anyways, he also confirms 2020. They've definitely been writing music, and he knows. Why does he know? Because he played on it. They've been recording it. Okay. And then in January of 2023, this year of our Lord, 2023, the aforementioned David Batiel responded to somebody who was celebrating the anniversary of reading, writing arithmetic on Twitter.

He wrote back, they've been making music ever since their last album and not releasing it. It's confusing, I know. I love that about them. I hate them for it, but I'm also like, I'm obsessed with you. Listen, utmost respect, and it's not my place to say what you should do with that music, but I do love that they're still making music. Yeah. The way that they've talked about their music, their whole career and the way that we've

like gone over it is like it just, it just seemed like it was just like a part of their lives. And like the fame and the actual releasing and the touring was just like the secondary. Yeah. Part of it. Like I, I wonder if they never were discovered at that gig, if they would just keep making music at home. They would have had jobs, though. True. Presumably they have had jobs since then. I mean, we don't know. The Budweiser money was just so good. I don't think it's long run out, babe. I don't know. I mean, Here's where the story ends is a pretty big song, but like, I guess if you live modestly enough, what do I know? Patch, Hannon also said, he also tried to tell them that, hey, we can tour now again because the kids are out of the house. I think they also had another child, but I don't know any information about it.

And he also told them that touring is much better now and there's stuff like in-ear monitors. So that was very cute. So if you're listening, Dave and Harriet, do whatever you want, babe. That's your right. Yeah. Just know we love. the music and we are curious just to hear it. I want to talk a little bit about their legacy.

I think most obviously it was heard sort of right after in the Cranberries. The Cranberries had a slightly different tone, I think, to them, but like at least they were tougher. Tougher, a little fit, again, fit better in with the grunge timing. But, you know, the same sort of lelting vocals and stuff. recently in December of 2022, Biba Doobie, can you tell I've never said that word in my life, recently Biba Doobie, a very famous pop star? Yeah.

Young pop star right now? Yeah. She like opened for Taylor Swift on the air. She did. That's pretty big. You're right. You're right. She posted a snippet of herself covering summertime on TikTok and prefaced it by saying that

she has actually been trying to sing like Harriet Wheeler her whole life. I hear that. She later deleted it, but don't worry, the internet never forgets. How do you think a artist who is presumably very young found the Sundays? I mean, I certainly found the Sundays like decades after their rise. But I mean, I think for someone like Biba Doobie, that sort of indie pop sound there just isn't really, there isn't just a lot of it. Like, I feel like in like proceeding someone like Bibi Dooey's career, I don't know.

They're not TikTok viral. Have they been on any playlists? I don't know. I mean, I think, yeah. Yeah, I don't know. Here's where the story ends is pretty eternal. I think, like, you still kind of hear it all the time, like, on the radio or like, I they still kind of probably use it in movies and TV.

Mm-hmm. So maybe that way. Do you hear the influence of Harriet Wheeler in any other contemporary musicians? I do. I mean, I think, like, in the past few years, there's been, like, a rise of, like, almost, like, dream pop-y, like, you know, singer, songwriters or bands that are sort of working in this indie pop space to me that feels very, like, late 80s, early 90s. So like always, I feel like I hear some of the Sundays. Sure. The dream pop artist Hatchy, I feel like is very much like Harriet Wheeler core.

Dreampop in general is having sort of like a resurgence. Yeah. I also think the ethos of a lot of the Sundays music, like, you know, we've touched on it a few times, this idea of like sweetness on the surface, but then there's a little wink. There's a little joke. There's a little dig. I mean, I kicked a boy, I feel like is that. That sentiment is like everlasting in music.

Like, boys are gross. Throw rocks at them. It's a boy to really cried. Yeah. It is just funny because you, like, you see the most unexpected people to talk about the Sundays. Like, Jesse, who was the hardcore guy that you alerted me to that name check the Sundays? Lord Isaac, aka Danny Diablo, would not expect.

A little bit of punk, but I like, like, I don't even like hardcore. I like listen to Cranberries on Sundays. There's a video of Mark Hoppice that a listener sent in where he's talking about the Sundays. Somebody tell me what group that is right there. Buddy Holly. No. Also, Mark Hopp is famously loved the curiosity. He has a very good taste.

There's that Elijah Wood tweet from years ago that just says Harriet Wheeler, where are you? But I think that's a big part of this too is like, yes, they made great music, right? Like, for all the reasons as we described. But I think that pulling away. just really is like the cherry on top of why they're such a cult band. I mean, it's like the idea of like putting out all that music and just like disappearing and then like these breadcrumbs alerting us to the fact that they have been recording music and they're just not releasing it.

It's so funny because I again, I'm speculating, but I would have to presume that they wouldn't even view it as disappearing, right? When they're just like, we just made no more albums. We didn't disappear. We live in our house. We raised our children. We lived our lives. We didn't disappear.

We just stopped putting out music. Like, you know, like, I think there is a sort of recluse mythology that I think has been foisted on them that I'm not sure applies. Right? You're right. We just can't fathom in this time that someone would not want to be famous and would not have any social media presence because it's just not a reality for us. But I mean, there are recluses, right? But I don't know, I'm not sure that they count really. I mean, to the credit of that is like they did the American Way interview.

Yeah. I just assume no one's bothering them anymore, you know? Like, but who knows? I have no idea, except for us with this podcast. But I think that's why the allure of this band is bigger than the music. It's like it's their brand of celebrity and how they've approached celebrity. It feels like, it's like, I was joking in the beginning about, I've also fantasized about dropping off the face of the earth professionally. Like, everyone has those moments where it's like people who maybe have a career that's like slightly attached to the internet or is slightly attached to like performing a version of themselves online or something, which maybe, I don't know, at this point, everyone's performing a version of themselves online to some extent, no matter if you're like a writer or.

whatever but like that sort of like withholding like I'm going to do what I want to do but it's not going to be for consumption because I don't feel the pressure I don't feel pressure to put it out there and I the putting it people consuming it people having opinions about it people coming to shows if we did them is not a part of it like it's the actually writing the songs it's the actually singing them is the thing that matters and respect yeah total fucking respect maybe I'm to start making this podcast and not releasing it. I'll just keep making the episodes. I'll keep killing myself in the Google Doc and I'll just record them.

I don't think my bosses would enjoy that. Just don't release this episode. Let's pull a Sundays. Let's pull Sundays. We had a beautiful moment where we experienced it in the present and only me and producer Jesse will ever know about it. That's great. Well, Hazel, and yeah, I have been waiting the whole.

episode to say this. Here's where the story ends. Just kidding, this is not where the story ends. This is just before the story ends where we hear from Sundays fans worldwide, given their chance to shine. Let's do it. I was a teenage metalhead from Iowa, but one night in the midst of all that, I was watching 120 minutes with Mr. Dave Kendall, and I happened to catch the world premiere of the video for Here's Where the Story ends. And for reasons I cannot explain the divine Harriet Wheeler, captivated me, stole my heart that very night. Listening to the Sundays is perfect emotional catharsis. It's light and jangly.

The Sundays are just if you take the best parts of the cranberries and mix that with the best parts of cocto twins, you just get the most beautiful band ever. I was immediately enamored with Harriet Wheeler's voice. How could you not be? It was so girly and divine. I think the Sundays are special because of how much they do with so little. Absolutely magnificent guitar playing.

There's just like a perfect balance between the instruments and Harriet's singular voice. Just the most beautiful emotive voice. Just a couple of instruments, just a couple of albums, but a sound that's big, lush and transportive. And also haunting and deeply beautiful. Some might call it blasphemy, but I actually think the Sunday's version of, wild horses is better than the stones. The way the Sunday sound to me is they don't make rainy days cheerful by dreaming of sunshine. They lie in the rain and make it strangely beautiful.

There's something really special about them. I just don't understand why they're not everyone's favorite band. Beautiful. Beautiful. Okay, now here's where the story ends. Hazel, thank you so much for coming on bandsplan and talking about the Sundays with me. Thank you for having me. Come back next week for a new episode in Bansplaine.

If you liked what you heard today, subscribe for more episodes of Bansplaine. Our guest today was Hazel Sills. You can follow her on Twitter at Hazel Sills. This episode was produced by Jesse Miller Gordon and edited by Adrian Bridges with help from Justin Sales. Executive producers for Bansplaine are Gina Delvec and me, Yossi Salick. Huge thanks to the Sunday's mega fans you heard on this episode. Mike Funk, Maggie Fahary, James Newbold, and Sam Paxton. Our gorgeous and catchy theme song was composed and performed by Bethany Costantino and Jennifer

Clavin and graciously recorded by Carlos Della Garza in Los Angeles, California. As always, special thanks to our Producer Emeritus, Producer Dylan, aka Dylan Tupper Rupert, and also Casey Simonsonson, Robert Adler, Leah Edwards, David McDonough, Dana Mearsson, Jessica Hopper, and The Hello Kitty Store in Pasadena. Come back every Thursday for a new episode of Bansplain on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. The Sundays would make fun of you. I know. They'd be like, well, you're such a fucking loser.

You read that much about us. And I'm like, well, it's my job, babe. Okay. Sorry. If I could sing or have cool wispy bings, I would not be doing this. And unfortunately, I have frizzy curly hair. And I only know how to Google, make Google Doc, eat hot chip and lie. So.