Bandsplain - Tracy Chapman with Ann-Derrick Gaillot

Episode Date: September 2, 2021

Writer Ann-Derrick Gaillot takes us through the decades-spanning career of Tracy Chapman, whose breakout hit Fast Car propelled her into the canon of singer-songwriters when she was just 24 years old. Follow Ann-Derrick Gaillot at @AnnDerrickG. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's with this band anyway? I don't get it. Can you please explain? Wait, like, Bansplain? Hello and welcome to Bandsplane. I am your host, Yossi Sallick. This is a show where we invite experts on to explain cult bands and iconic artists to me and to you. Today's episode is about Tracy Chapman. If you've never heard Tracy Chapman, let me give you one reason to stay here.

Here's what Tracy Chapman sounds like. like. My guest today is culture journalist and Derek Gaiow. Welcome to the show, Ann. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to have you here for people that don't know. You're obviously a brilliant writer. And you recently wrote a fantastic review for Pitchfork.

Do they call it the Sunday Review when they read the older albums? The Sunday Review, Tracy Chapman's. just like insanely good first self-titled album. So we were like, you know what? Anne needs to come on the show and explain Tracy Chapman to us. I'm excited too. I could talk about her for a long time. We've gotten a lot of requests for Tracy Chapman.

I think she kind of is, and we can get into it later. But like she has a good example, I think, of a cult artist. Like even though she was at the height of her career, like really famous. I think that was an anomaly and for reasons that we can get into. And like, but the people that love her like really to this day, like they're obsessed. Yeah, for sure. And they're like keeping Tracy alive with like Facebook forum or like groups and like online forums and fan websites. Yeah, fan websites. She has a really, really dedicated fan base where I think that like Even though she had that super, super immense initial fame that she still had, I don't know, she still sustained a fan base that stayed with her through her next seven albums, you know.

Totally. Okay, let's start at the top. Why are you tell me a little bit about Tracy Chapman? Like, where is she from? How did she get into music? The spiel. Tracy Chapman is from Ohio, from Cleveland, Ohio. She was born there in 1964, I believe.

and she grew up there with her mom and her older sister. Her parents split up when she was younger. And either her mom or her sister gave her her first guitar when she's about eight years old. And then she started writing songs. Then she left Ohio when she was about 16 to go to boarding school in Connecticut. And then she went to Boston for school. And that's when she started playing on like coffee shops and festivals and, uh, a busking and from there is where she got her record deal and then made her first incredible album,

Tracy Chapman. It's kind of like a fairy tale how she got the record deal, right? It's like, because she went to Tufts and like you said in Boston and some other tough student who is now like a known person was this guy named Brian Copleman who ended up writing for Grantland and he's written, like, he was like a music A&R for a while, but then he sort of became a writer and editor, and then he wrote two films. His father was like one-third of a huge publishing company called SBK publishing, and so he was just like, this woman is so talented and brought her to his dad and convinced his dad to sign her to the publishing. And the dad took her to Electra and was like, you need to sign this woman. Okay, I'm so glad that you brought that up because this is one of the things that makes me like ramble.

uncontrollably because I'm so excited to like talk about this story. It's true that she and Brian were classmates at Tufts and everything you said about his dad and the publishing company is true and that they helped negotiate the deal with Electra. But I think something that happened as far as like crafting the narrative around Tracy Chapman's come up was that it became this like story of the Harvard Basker who just got plucked out of obscurity and there was a man. who saw her talent and was like, oh my god, this would be big. Totally. But when I was writing about her first album, it, like, was very, very clear that she had a

huge fan base already as far as people in coffee shop circuits in Boston. And more than that, people, lesbian and bisexual women who went to women's festivals and lesbian festivals and red, like lesbian and gay zines, she had a lot of people that, like, would go to women's festivals to like follow her around different women's festivals. Not like a ton like Grateful Dead or something like that. But she was definitely a sensation. And people in Boston knew who she was. She was profiled in the Boston Globe before she ever signed to Elektra.

So a lot of that background of her work and her building her repertoire as a performer, especially a live performer, no band just all by herself with a guitar. she was already so seasoned by the time that Brian Copleman discovered her that... Yeah, quote-unquote, heavy air quotes. Yeah, like he definitely, you know, did stuff to connect her to the recording industry. But, you know, he had to like try to convince her for six months to try to sign a deal. I read an account that another women's music label, which is a genre label, we never ever hear anymore. but a women's music label was trying to get her to sign with them.

But it's interesting. I have listened to other episodes of the show, and I love how you talk with folks about, like, women, artists, like men in their circles getting credit for the things they do. Always. And I feel like when I think about Brian Copleman discovering Tracy Chapman, I think that people too need to see, like, he also got a lot out of Tracy Chapman's success. Like I read...

Totally. Yeah, he had... And he got a career out of it, basically. Right, exactly. And I recently read a profile that New York Times did on him a long time ago where he said he was originally going to go to law school, but then things popped off with Tracy. And he was like, oh, I can be a talent scout. So I love the opportunity to be able to talk about that.

That she had a huge following in women's festivals and lesbian and bisexual music scenes. And it's like, honestly, like... People love to, like, you know, you're your journalist, and I'm sure you don't participate in this, but like, journalists love an easy story. So it's like, if someone like hand delivers them, like, here's what happened and what a magical tale. They're not going to be like, no, but she had a fault, you know, this are going to be like, look how simple and beautiful. And, you know, Boston, producer Dylan has brought to my attention very Yossi core piece of information that, I mean, Boston was a crazy music place at this time, like that Tracy Chapman was like, thrott. driving in the same environment as like the lemon heads and Dinosaur Jr. and the pixies. Like it's all happening at once. Like makes me like I want to go back in time.

This is just, I think, a bit related to your point is maybe also that like Tracy Chapman was not waiting around to be discovered. And Tracy Chapman had a like a real strong sense of who she was as an artist and what she wanted to do. Because the other part of that story is that she's like, sure, but I need to graduate college first. She's not like, yes, thank God, my dreams have come true. Like, whisk me off to Elektra. She's like, that sounds cool, babe, but I got to finish this degree. It's important. And she doesn't do anything for like six full months while she wraps up her education.

And like, that is not a person who was like begging on the street for a record deal, you know, the way they made it sound. Right. And yeah, I don't want to like, I don't want to downplay too much that it was a meteoric rise to fame. But that's so true. Like, I read that she was considering. getting an advanced degree in like ethnomusicology or something like that, but then decided to do the record deal instead. So yeah, that's totally right. Yeah. And I think, you know, it does take just like a magical thing of things happening at the same time because like to your point,

I think Tracy Chapman would have had a healthy career regardless, but it wouldn't have been this big. Like having, you know, your daddy who has the biggest music publishing, I mean like, Daddy, I found a thing and then him having that much influence and then Electra records having that much influence to be able to like push this album, you know, into the hands of all the journalists and New York Times and the Rolling Stone and like, you know, get that, that eventually got her before, I think before her. Well, actually, I don't know. You tell me, Anna, I'm not, it didn't come up, but like she ends up being managed by the same

guy who managed like Neil Young and Joni Mitchell, right? And that probably did happen as a result of this sort of like Brian Copleman to Daddy to Electra pipeline. Yeah, I believe that's true. I don't, I haven't read anything that said that they linked up before that. Yeah. So like that was a huge, I think, boon to obviously her career. But like it didn't happen because the guy was like someone convinced me. Like I think the guys talked about it.

He was like he heard her music and he was just like, this is, this reminds me of the same incredible excellence of Joni Mitchell and like the same. and like the same magic that she had, which is a huge, a huge compliment. So this first album, we talk about this a lot on the show. You know, I think a lot of people will know an artist or know their music, but we tend to, over time, forget about the context.

And I think sometimes the context is what makes it extraordinary, whereas, like, now in hindsight, it's like, yeah, fast car is awesome, you know, or whatever. But it's like, this first album comes out, in 1988, right? Like, it was definitely a flashy time. George Michael's Faith was the biggest album.

Because I gotta have faith. And the dirty dancing soundtrack. And then the rest of the things that were on the charts, like, hitting number one, was Tiffany, Guns and Roses, Def Leopard, Bon Jovi, and Van Halen. And for one week in October, Tracy Chafflin, which is like, to break through that stuff and have nothing to do with it musically is insane. Yes. that was part of the allure in the beginning that everyone really latched on to, that it was different,

that it felt authentic and real, and kind of like people in the 80s's chance to have what maybe like their Woodstock moment or something that they wanted. But yeah, the context is so, I'm so glad that you brought that up because, okay, I low-key feel like an imposter Tracy Chapman expert because I wasn't like in it, you know, when she was, on her rise and everything. Were you born in 1995? I was, no, I was born in 1990, though. Yeah, it is easy to lose the context because Fast Car is like, it was just in the air. It was like everywhere around for my entire life. So it's just easy to forget that like she carved out her own little spot for sure. Totally. Let's hear Fast Car so we can just

get right into the music. And then I want to talk more about the album. You're like a crying enthusiast kind of right? I'm a what enthusiast? Like crying and like being in your feelings and stuff. Oh, huge crying enthusiast. Perfect. Massive fan. This is going to be an amazing time then. I hadn't listened to a lot of Tracy Chapman albums, but I went back and listened to all of them before those record. And I was like, wow, so much sad songs that are Yossi core. Yeah. Yeah. Like an acoustic guitar and sad song done by signed. I'm sold. This is Fast Car. You are listening to a music and talk episode where full songs and talk segments live together in gorgeous harmony only on Spotify. Guess what? You can also create your own music and talk show for free with Anchor, Spotify's

podcasting platform. Get started at anchor.fm slash music and talk. That's anchor.fm slash music and talk. That was Fast Car. Literally never gets old. Sorry, I don't care what anyone says. I don't care if I hear it 60 million more times before my death, it won't be enough times. It's just a fucking banger. It's a bop. It's a smash. Completely agree. So you've probably definitely read about this while you were researching stuff.

But yeah, Tracy Chapman played this at Nelson Mandela's 70th birthday celebration at Wembley. I remember when you were driving, driving in your car. Skis so fast it felt like I was drunk. People all over the world saw this song, but they weren't supposed to because Stevie Wonder was actually supposed to play then. And like his equipment got was missing or something so he couldn't play. Yeah. So Tracy Chapman stepped in.

And when you watch the footage of the stadium when she walks up to play this song, it's like everyone's like shouting and super, super rowdy. But when they hear her alone starting the first chords of fast car, which I don't believe it was a big smash yet, they just completely quiet down and all attention is on. Tracy Chapman and it's like haunting. No, it was not a big smash yet. The album itself wasn't a big smash yet. This basically is what catapulted it because 60 million people were watching that on TV. I mean, I feel like we could talk about Fast Car for the whole three hours of this show. We could.

But sadly, we must get in the Fast Car and move on. One thing I want to mention about Fast Car is she wrote it when she was in college. Like, a little baby. I know. I mean, not a little baby, but kind of. Even the song talking about a revolution, didn't she write that when she was 16? Yes. Yes.

Yeah, like, I read something that said when she was in college, she wrote like between, she composed between 100 and 200 songs, and those songs make up her first three albums. So I kind of think of them as like a giant triple album kind of. Body of work. Yeah. When I was in college, I consumed 100. of pills of ecstasy. Amazing. Amazing use of your time. I wanted to point out, and I don't know if we talked about this yet, but this first album, the self-titled, was produced by David Kirshenbaum,

who was kind of an inspired choice of producer, and I'm not totally sure. I read some quote from her that said, like, the producer that she ended up with was an accident or like a miracle of fate kind of thing. She had another producer assigned, and something happened. He got injured in a car accident and so David Kershomb came along. But David Kershombeam had worked a lot with Joan Baez and Kat Stevens. It feels like it was like a really good choice

you know? Yeah, and I think that's why like that like classic folk sound that the album has, I think that's why it was such a like surprise when it came out. Totally. Yeah. Yeah, it was a little out of time anachronistic

when as we talked about it was like a deaf leopard all the time. in 1980 or whatever. Yeah, and then, yeah, he produced her next album, too, Crossroads. Again, I think we touched on this, but the album, I'm sure, would have done well regardless, but the fact that she was tapped to perform at Nelson Mandela's birthday party, birthday concert party, 70th birthday party. televised to 600 million people. Not a big deal. Yes. So before the concert, her album had sold about a million copies around the world. And then it shot up after that. When she first got on, she played Y behind the wall and talking about a revolution. Then Stevie Wonder couldn't go on. So she played fast car and across the lines and blew this audience away. So obviously because Stevie Wonder was originally going to be in that slot, it was broadcast to more places. So that's when a lot of people.

People heard Fast Car for the first time. And then once later it became a gigantic hit. Her album sold millions of more copies after that. And she was invited to go on the Amnesty International tour with, I believe, Sting. Yes, I think that's right. And, yeah, someone else. So that, yeah, shot her to fame completely. Yeah, it was just this, like, sort of, like, perfect.

Again, like, I'm just noting there's, like, been a couple now already, like, happy accidents that have really like led to more and more exposure and success, which is like the producer and now this, you know, accidental fast car being heard by 600 million people. Because I mean, I think before this she had toured with 10,000 maniacs. So she had like, you know, 10,000 manias were pretty popular at that time. She had been put in front of some people and she was on a major so it's not like she was going to go unheard. But this really, like, put her on the map. And again, it's not that she didn't have the goods to back it up.

It's like you can't just be put on the map with nothing good. No one would care that it's like everyone heard fast car and then everyone lost their minds. In total, I think this album sold 20 million copies worldwide. And it's one of the first albums by a female artist to have more than 10 million copies sold worldwide, which is kind of a big deal. Yeah, that's incredible. I think it's gone six times platinum since. Huge. People are still loving it.

It's to this day. It holds up. What did people make of this? Because I was like trying to read some of the press around it at the time. And it seemed like, you know, they just like, these critics almost didn't know what to do, like what to say about her. Like they, as always, are trying to draw some comparisons, you know? And like they would go to like Suzanne Vega or like obviously like, back to like Joni Mitchell always.

And I don't know. How do you feel about those comparisons? I feel like they're pretty natural comparisons to make. Yeah. I mean, Suzanne Vega was huge at the time. And I understand she was like maybe the closest thing to like a huge confessional artist, female artist, you know, in the recent past before this album had come out. Right.

Something that like strikes me about early, um, of the album is that people, which I feel like is not a conversation people have now, talking about how authentic she was and how she was going to save the music industry. Because obviously during the 80s, it's like a time of glitz and glamour and greed and people just like experimenting a lot with, you know, awesome visuals and like their stage presentation and everything. And she was so stripped down that like with those comparisons to Joni Mitchell, I think people really saw her as someone who is. to bring music back to like the authenticness of what like the folk era before that that people

really like to hold up as pure musicianship. Totally. Yeah. No, that's so true. And I think like it does make sense when you think of it in the landscape of like guns and roses, deaf leopard bon Jovi and Van Halen, which was like the reigning chart topping artists of the time. Like, yeah.

Like in that sort of like maybe choking landscape. that was not just like over the top glitz and production and whatever. It was also like alarmingly male and white, you know? And I think like Tracy Chapman was such like just such a different thing at that time that people were like, wow, look at this. Like even though authentic is a weird word to use for anybody. It is. Well, also I don't know if you came across like Pete the conversations around her being a protest singer,

which I think are really interesting. Because her lyrics are so blunt, I guess, as far as her values and the message she's trying to credit across of anti-consumerism and anti-violence that I think a lot of people were calling her a protest singer, which I don't know if I feel that way because I don't know. Do you feel like with protesting her that just means that implies that the music is secondary, like not as important as the lyrics?

Because that's kind of how I take it. Yeah, I mean, I think it's just kind of like a lazy categorization, right? It's just like something to say when they don't know what to say. But it's like no one called you two a protest band. You know, when they had like really overtly, you know, songs against war and things like that. But no one was like, hmm, this protest band. Right. Producer Dillian is saying I think the difference is that musicians like this are telling narratives in songs.

the musicians like Tracy Chapman, but protest singers are talking directly to like the issues of the time and like trying to impart lessons. Whereas like, yeah, I mean, producer Jones right. Like Tracy Chapman had a lot of different kinds of songs and like just because she has one call talking about a revolution doesn't mean they were all about issues or whatever, you know? Right. She had some good quotes, I think. Like, she must, it's so funny because, like, I think she stopped doing press after like that first cycle and you can kind of see why. Because like they kept asking you're like, what's your genre? What's this? Are you a folk singer? And she said, I guess the answer is yes and no. I think what comes to people's minds is the Anglo-American tradition of the folk singer and they don't think about the black roots of folk music. So in that sense, no, I don't. My influences in my background are different. In some ways, it's a combination of black. and white folk traditions. And then she said this other thing to the New York Times where she was like, the way popular music is categorized and formatted cuts down on everyone's options.

And although people don't talk about it, there are a lot of issues of race determining musical categories of what's rock, R&B, or even folk. It ends up restricting creativity. So I think she like really bristled at like being put into these little boxes. Absolutely. And it's so interesting to just see how things have changed because I mean I might be wrong about this, but Tracy had to worry about, I believe she talks about not getting as much play on black radio stations at one point.

Was it in your pitchfork piece that I read, was it Chuck D who said, like, black people don't listen to Tracy Chapman or bad people don't get it or something? Yeah, which obviously is not true. But she also said, there are people who have gone so far as to say that I'm not black or not part of the black musical tradition. I think the reason I don't get played on black radio stations is because I don't fit into their present format and they're not willing to make a space for me. Yeah, so I think she had so much derision for the narratives or the reviews that people were having of her work and trying to put her in a box of a singer-songwriter or a black musician or a not-black

enough musician and like looking at all of her music, she has experimented quite a bit, I think, within her own style. So I can see why that would be why that would be so frustrating. Yeah. It's funny. There's this like, this Rolling Stone piece did bring up like, I guess the guy basically was like, oh, well, how do you feel about like this was, this is probably pre-Starbucks selling CDs, but he was basically saying, how do you feel about these?

is Starbucks CD buying white people who make up a lot of your audience. He called them upscale liberal CD buyers. And the guy's like, but are they the best audience for her? Are they simply looking for pretty music and comfortable liberal platitudes to make them feel better? Or are they using her in the words of Britain's New Musical Express as an after-dinner conscience comforter? And her response was, that's something I don't have any control over. People go to concerts for lots of different reasons. which is like such a fuck you.

She's like, I don't. Like, what are you talking about? You know, like leave me alone. Yeah, because people like, can't you kind of say the same thing about Bob Dylan or like? A hundred percent. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, like any person that white liberal people like. So I don't know.

Yeah. But that was a very interesting conversation that I wonder like about genre and her race if that would even happen now. You know what I mean? I wish it wasn't like that now, but it probably still is. exactly like that. Should we play Talking About a Revolution? Yes. We've been talking about it so much.

Okay, cool. This is Talking About a Revolution. That was Talking About a Revolution. I love thinking with the quote you brought up before about the liberal white people sitting around making themselves feel better by listening to Tracer Chapman record. I love thinking about them listening to what's actually a super rage-filled song telling them, that they better run because the people are rising up. Yeah. I don't want to say like you have to imagine that they're like hearing it but they're not hearing it.

Right. Exactly. They're just like, better run, run, run, run. Like, because she really like cloaked the rage of that song in like hopefulness and looking forward. I just saw a video on Tracy Chapman online. Shout out to Stefan Evans who runs that and does a Tracy Chapman. podcast, which is really cool. But he had a video on there of her talking about writing that while she was in boarding school in Connecticut on scholarship around a bunch of rich kids that didn't

care to know anything about her life. So I feel like with that context, you can really hear the frustration and anger. I have to tell you something that's really going to bum you out. Oh, no. Do you know who has covered this song? No. A little band called Real Big Fish. They mix God music. Okay. Okay, that doesn't bum me out as much as I did not know what you're going to say. Okay, I'm digesting that.

This song has been covered a lot. Maybe not as much as a fast car, but that one really tickled my fancy, thinking about a real big fish in their entire horn section. They want revolution. They want revolution. Honking about a revolution is what, skanking about a revolution. is obviously the better play there, producer Dylan, and clearly you must have an opportunity. I have a question. We started to talk about the audience, right? And I didn't find much in the press

about it, but, you know, it's kind of hard to find all of the existing write-ups from 1988, you know, only very few are online. But like, do you have a sense of what was the, like, response to like plain clothes, like no makeup, not a pop, you know, not trying to be a pop star woman singer at the time, especially in the 80s. Well, what I get from just what I've read is just that people were perplexed and fascinated because like I said before, it was a lot of flashiness. So she immediately stood out for just wearing like a black t-shirt and jeans. A lot of people said she, you know, was entombed.

adrogynous, had an androgynous voice, an androgynous look. I think people were perplexed and fascinated and wanted to look into that more. Her manager definitely played into that too by encouraging her not to talk a lot, like encouraging her instinct to not want to talk too much between songs and not be out there as much. So I think that fascination with her mysteriousness and her difference, when it came to her next albums, it kind of, it wasn't like a gimmick or a trendy thing. So when on her next two albums, she was still wearing a black t-shirt and not talking much and not doing the big name artist things. I feel like critics and people that wrote about her next two albums were like, oh, this is just more of the same thing.

It's not fascinating or mysterious anymore, especially since in that time more singer-songwriters became more famous. And really important thing to mention about Trace Chapman is she really predates the, like, Lilith Faircore that, like, you know, title waves in in the early 90s. Before we move on from this album, can we please hear For My Lover? Oh, my God. Because it's such a beautiful song. This is For My Lover. That was For My Lover.

What a beautiful goddamn glorious song that is. Again, really specific. Like. Yeah. she knows how to embody a character and write from a specific perspective and weave a story. Like, oh my God. She knows how to weave a story. She knows how to write a poem.

I liked how you pointed out in your piece that she is, I don't want to say careful because I don't know what the intention was, but she doesn't ever indicate gender of the beloved. I think there's one song you said there's a hymn or a hymn. he, but it feels more like a, like a royal him for lack. Not really, lack of a better way to say it. You know what I'm saying. You said it. You said it better. I should just read what you said. I'll do that. Let's look that. Yeah, she is. And I think that like that broadens her appeal. Also got her a lot of flack at the beginning of her career for not being from a, you know, gay publication. gay circles for not being open about her sexuality, not speaking openly about her relationships.

There was one of her later albums, The Advocate, called it a closity bore. Oh, wow. I know. I was like, oh, my God, that's scathing. But I think it really encapsulates, like, the sort of sell-out conversation around her was very much about around her sexuality and not being explicit enough for people

about what that was. Which feels like none of anyone's damn business if you're asking me. Like, can we just take a moment to appreciate how much control over her, the line between public and private she had at such a, like, early time, I feel like, even now people have social media and they can somewhat control, like, their image or whatever, but, but you still have something out there. she was like, she was not very open with the press, which people got mad at her about. Like, one reviewer was like, she could be like a little more friendly or whatever, I'm paraphrasing. But like when men do it, it's like, oh my God, they're genius. Oh my God. Totally.

How mysterious. The whole not having pronouns in your songs for most of them, I feel like I love it. I love it. It was ahead of its time. Totally. And also like really hats off to her as someone who. Cannot help it be publicly mentally ill on social media through this podcast, literally anywhere that anyone on the street corner in the grocery store. Like simply, how does someone maintain mystery?

I don't know. I would love to learn. This album was, like we said, a very commercially successful album. She also won three Grammys, including Best New Artist, which is a huge deal, I think. Yes. And Fast Car won Best Female. pop vocal. And I think she had one more for... For Best Contemporary Folk album.

That's right. It's interesting that they gave her a pop Grammy and a folk Grammy. It's like Make Up Your Minds, Babes. She deserves them both. She deserves them both. She should have gotten way more of them. So the next album comes out one short year later, year and a half. Right. 1989. Crossroads. I really like this album. I hadn't spent much time with this album. I think I knew self-titled pretty well, but I really hadn't spent much time with Crossroads, and I love it. The title track, banger. It's a bop. Yeah, I think this album is really great, too.

I like the self-titled album a little bit more. Sure. But I feel like it just shows more of what is great about her, like her presence, her being able to command a song with very simple arrangements, storytelling message. Neil Young is on this album. He sure is, babe. He gets on there and plays acoustic guitar and piano on the song that you have chosen. All That You Have Is Your Soul. Should we hear it? Yes. Okay. This is All That You Have Is Your Soul featuring Young upstart Neil Young.

That was All That You Have is Your Soul. Gorgeous, beautiful song. But also, I feel, way less specific than some of her earlier songs. We've obviously talked about that, like how specific her lyrics are, but then somehow the songs are so relatable. Like this one is like pretty broad, thematically broad. Yeah, I feel like she has the songs where she is embodying someone else and telling their story. And then she has the songs where she is very much just speaking to the listener. And this is definitely one of those.

I did read something where, because it was on her second album, people were kind of reading it as a response to her fame, her meteoric rise to fame. But no, it's one of those songs that she wrote before when she was in college and around that time. Oh, so it could not have possibly. Yeah. Yeah, right, right. I'm going to just run it back a little and take a bit of that back.

Because I feel like now I'm like going over the lyrics. I'm like, it is kind of in parts pretty specific. I was a pretty girl once. I had dreams. I had high hopes. I married a man. He stole my heart away. He gave his love. What a high price I paid. Which I guess that's a metaphor. But also, yeah, just speaking from someone else's perspective and embodying for sure. Should we talk about my favorite thing in the world, which is the mutants who annotate genius.com. Have you ever made an annotation on genius? No, because I'm normal. I'm just kidding. Please keep doing it because it really gives me all the joy in the world.

I also don't write Yelp reviews. It's like it's a certain kind of person. But the genius annotation in the like just general about section of this says a man's parentheses, both man and woman, parentheses. Soul is a priceless treasure. Its worth is more than all the exotic gems one can own. A woman's soul is that and more, just so you know, that and more. To understand this as a woman takes time, to explore it and curve it takes patience, strength, and wisdom.

Then there's some stuff about opening your third eye. We all have it. The third eye. Wait a minute, this gets so good. But we're rushing to make it. The gag is there is nothing to make. Everything we need and desire is in our soul. Give it the right tools and watch how you.

you will soar. Honestly, amen. Yeah, with genius, I just like don't need the interpretations. I like a little fun backstory, a little tidbit, a little maybe like... I live for the interpretations. They're just so good. Your soul is worth more than all the exotic gems in the world, Ann. Yeah, this person should just make their own song. It's, I mean, it sounded like they were writing song lyrics. But they definitely hit on the spirit. Maybe. Yeah, I think so. I think they're getting it.

We're getting it. Okay, let's talk 1992 for a second. Because I think, and we've talked about this a few times on this show, we are always in reruns. But people think of the very early 90s as like, grunge ruled the earth. And it was like nonstop sound garden and Nirvana and Pearl Jam. But what it really was was nonstop Garth Brooks and achy,

breaky heart. Don't tell my heart. My heck is breaking heart. That was, like, dominating the charts. Largely all of the 90s was, like, Garth Brooks's reign on the world and, like, lots of Reba McIntyre. It wasn't what people think it was. So, like, coming, you know, putting this album out in 1992, where, yeah, Nirvana had become big, like, culturally. But, like, again, Garth Brooks, Billy Ray Cyrus.

Def Leopard is still hanging on for dear life. And, which we, I think, alluded to a little early. earlier, the singer-songwriters, the white singer-songwriters, have started to a descend also. Katie Lang. She came out, I think, in the late 1980s. So she's already on the scene. Alanis Morissette has put out Jagged Little Pill in 1991. You could probably count here.

Tori Amos. Little earthquakes came out in 91. It's happening. It's all happening. Yeah. Am I over praising her when I say she, like, kicked open the door? No, I think she set the stage. Yeah, because I think just capitalism-wise, you have to say that, like, once a woman with a guitar went, you know, multiple times platinum and sold that many albums, then other labels were like, oh, you say that a woman with a guitar can sell 20 million albums.

We would like a woman with a guitar also. So, yeah, I think that you're not overstating it at all. Thank you. I appreciate that. And I feel like the expectation, these three albums came out in such quick succession that I wonder, like, I don't know, they were trying to capitalize on that wave. But I also think with this album, people kind of had the expectation that she was going to switch it up a little bit as far as her folk sensibility and her songs with really strong messages. in them. Yeah.

So while it did do pretty, it did well, but people also called it a flop or said, oh, the New York Times said it was a downer and whiny. She like opened up the door for other people, but as far as her herself, people are like, give us more. Not people, but like critics. Right. Even though she had like kind of paved, like created a sound that a lot of people were responding to.

Yeah. You don't have a song chosen from this album. Do you not like this album? I like this album, but, you know, it's not my favorite album. It's not like I dislike it. But like I said before, I just think of the first three albums kind of as one album. Right. But I do like matters.

I like the title track of this songs of this album. If these are things is kind of good. And I think maybe just personally I thought it was cool because it's about the Persian Gulf War, which not a lot of people were making songs about the Persian Gulf War at the time. You know, producer Dylan. has raised a question that I do want to ask you. What do you think it was that, like, I think we kind of, we touched on it when we were talking about 88 and the first album and why people were so gravitated towards Tracy Chapman Sound then. But what do you think it was now, like we're in 92, that all these other female singer-songwriters are coming through? Like, what did the listening audience

want at this time that these artists were providing. Like, was it like an antidote to grunge, as producer de Dylan says? Like, I guess I have to imagine that like if you're by and large, your choices are Garth Brooks, Def Leopard, Nirvana, you know what I mean? Like, achy, break your heart that like maybe people who are not rockers and not really and to like overproduced country would like something that they could like hang on to. And really specifically, I mean, I don't want to overgeneralize, but like women. You know, I think a large portion of the audience of Little Faircore was obviously women, other women.

Yeah, I don't see it as like an antidote to like the grunge rocker wave per se, but I can totally see it as a response to like overproduced country in top 40. Right. Like we talked about before with the authenticness and looking for something deeper, quote unquote, in the music. I feel like maybe these women, singer-songwriters, writing their own music, playing guitar, maybe people gravitated towards it because it was good. Yeah, because it was good. It was simply good. So after this alleged flop, air quotes, new beginning comes out.

And New Beginning is not a flop. November 1995. Tell me about New Beginning. New Beginning was, first of all, I think one of the only songs on this album that was, like, written from her college days and earlier is Give Me One Reason, which obviously was the giant hit. And the rest of the songs she wrote, you know, shortly before recording and had a band, I believe, this was like one of the first. time she got a band together to play and tour together. So that is definitely a new beginning for her. And it was a giant hit. And people were like, oh, she still got it because she never didn't have it. You know what I mean? So give me one reason. Just blew people away. I feel like a lot of people

who weren't following music really closely, didn't even really realize that it was Tracy Chapman. Well, let's hear it. Because I think you can say it's, it is quite different. sounding than Fast Car. This is, give me one reason. That was Give Me One Reason. A fucking banger. Indisputable banger. She wrote it in college.

I have a theory that she wrote this after she took a blues class in college that she talked about once in an interview. But she was like in her early 20s singing, this youthful heart can love you and give you what you need, but I'm too old to go chasing around. Well, you know when you're in your 20s, you think you're like, yeah, I'm not a little teen anymore. True. I'm an adult.

Youthful heart. And honestly, we're all too old to be chasing somebody around. I just, one thing before I move on, this album sold, or several things. His album was a huge selling album, sold 3.3 million copies, like off top. Give me one reason It was the most successful single to date It beat out Fast Car, it hit number three

And it won the Grammy For Best Rock Song in 1997 Beating out Stupid Girl by Garbage Too Much by Dave Matthews Or as we call him here David Matthews And

Wonderwall By a little band called Oasis Whoa! I did not know that This song beat Wonderwall for Best Rock song kind of insane. Yes, this song, like,

people don't remember, well, we remember, the grip it had on this country for years. I think it was still playing on the radio like in 2005 or whatever. It's still playing on the radio now, but I just haven't listened to the radio.

Yes. Right now, on several radio stations around this country, adult contemporary ones, it is playing. And it's definitely playing in the Kroger and the Ralph's and the Safeway and wherever else. Yes.

Like Tracy can nail blues. She can nail folk. She can rock your pop socks off. She has range in a way that people weren't giving her enough credit for. And don't forget she could make you sob and weep. Right. Yes. And also make you want to like just walk out of whatever home you're sharing with people.

Like, you know what? I'm going to need a reason when you didn't even need one before because this song is so good. Totally. That is so good. I only have a cat. Unfortunately, I think if I demanded a reason to stay here, he would simply give me a side eye and move about his business. You know, I think it's interesting that she did write this song in college.

And I think I'd love to know more about how it morphed before this version, or if it did it all, because this album was co-produced by Don Geman, I think of, I don't know if I'm saying his name right. And he's like most known. for working with John Mellencamp. And Hootie and the Blowfish? The John Mellencamp thing, it's like you can really hear, like, he made it pretty rocking, you know?

I don't know. We can't know, right? I mean, obviously, first of all, Tracy Chapman, all our songs on her guitar by herself, so it couldn't have possibly been this. But, like, if she had envisioned it like that or if this was, like, something that was sort of, like, brought to life in this album. by the addition of this, like, producer who kind of trafficked in this kind of music. Because even owning the Blowfish, you know, like, that's a very blues rocking album.

He also did R.M. Life's Rich Pageant, which is very cool. Yeah. He was a cool producer. All that to say, whatever he did. And, you know, obviously she did fucking worked. Yeah, I was, there's one episode of the, I'm ringing it up again, the talking about Tracy Chapman podcast. where Stefan Evans interviews the bass player on Give Me One Reason. And he talks about how they recorded it live.

And he points out that the song, the tempo, the end of the song is much faster than in the beginning, kind of like lifting it up more. So I wonder about the choice of producer as well as just like being with a band, performing with the band, recording with the band. That really pumped it up. This song does involve the use also of a didgeridoo. Not this song, sorry, this album. Yes. Not this song. No didgeridoo present on, give me one reason.

But it's on new beginning, the title track. Yes. Time is going on in her career. She's getting, like, in these albums, they're getting so much more adventurous with the instrumentation, which is awesome to hear. Totally. I noted that I love Remember the Tin Man also.

That's more, I think, OG Tracy Chapman vibe, where it's like very pretty and spare, but I love that song. Yes. And just like, that's a good crying song right there. Can we listen to that one? Yes. Just to refresh.

Yeah. Who stole your heart? Who took it away? Knowing that without it you can live. What a beautiful song. Producer Dylan would like me to talk about what we just mentioned before this, the didgeridoo. Apparently there was some controversy around the didgeridoo. She learned it at the didgeridoo.

do in university. And I'm sorry, I'm not laughing. I'm not laughing. This is didgeridoo university is not funny. But apparently, the use of didgeridoo by women is taboo in many Aboriginal nations. So she got some flak, very early, a soft cancellation, if you will, but not really because there was no cancellation back then. I'm sorry, not to bring it up again, but I would really love a didgeridoo university, like maybe a sweatshirt or perhaps a hat. Do you know what I'm saying? Okay. Merchandise. So the Rolling Stone review mentions Gaman, and he says, you know,

Gaman not only utilizes Chapman's regular band, he also gives them a sharp mid-sized venue sound. It's a resonant similar to his production for the Huey Lewis and the News of our time, Hootie and the Blowfish. First of all, rude. But Chapman is a far more expressive singer than Hootie's Darius Rucker, and New Beginning is more than a troubadour discovering the joys of Auditorium Rock. It's about experimentation. Good review. It is. There's just some gems on this album, too.

Like, Cold Feet, I think, is very a really good song. I just saw that the review you're talking about mentions that too. We must mention for producer Tari, producer Tari's favorite song, not just on this album, of all Tracy Chapman output, is The Promise. So why don't we hear the promise as a little gift to your friend and mine, producer Tari? That was the promise. I'm crying. You're crying. Anne's crying. Tari's definitely crying. Oh, it's so beautiful and sad. Producer Dylan has included in my notes a piece from the New York Times from 1996 talking about Tracy It says pop music thrives on its very disposability. And ever since Live Aid and We Are the World turns celebrity philanthropy into a land of hope and self-glurification,

the shelf life for politics of pop has become extremely brief. In the 90s, anger and rebellion remain rock's best-selling gestures. Compassion and commitment are too grown up to be relevant. By staying true to her causes, Tracy, she experienced the indignity that befalls the characters in her songs, marginalization. Like, how good is that? That is so true. Like, her values and this culture that she is promoting and uplifting through her music is really, really consistent across her entire career. And I guess people, I don't know, couldn't handle it. This, that line is completely right. Who wrote that? David A. Keeps. Shout out, David A. Coupes. And then he says,

For a while, she retreated from the fray in her absence, a new breed of female performers, notably Courtney Love, energized rock and roll, rootsy groups like blues traveler and the David Matthews band. He's a Dave Matthews band, but I'm improvising here. Scored hits. MTV's unplugged series created hit albums for Eric Clapton and Nirvana, making acoustic rock fashionable again, witness the rise of folk influence singers like Jewel. VH1 established an identity as a music channel for those who are too old to rock and roll, too young to die. Me. For the same audience, a new radio format, adult alternative album oriented emerge. So I think I just wanted to read that because it is interesting that all that he's listing here happened after Tracy Chapman broke.

Too old to rock and roll, too young to die. Yeah, that's so interesting. Do you feel like that still exists? I think all rock and roll is now adult-oriented album rock and roll. I think that's kind of what happened post-Nirvana. It's only been that sense. And let me rephrase, all popular rock and roll. It's like the biggest rock and roll is what like, Tame.

Ampola War on Drugs, which is literally adult contemporary music, and, you know, radiohead or 21 pilots, I guess. I don't even know how you characterize that. So, yeah, I think it all kind of falls in that category. But I don't know, maybe there's like Machine Gun Kelly now, you could say. I just think it's interesting how early in her career she was labeled women's music and how that morphed into adult contemporary. Totally. Like as if like young people didn't like feverishly listen to Tori Amos and Alanis and Jewel. I mean, I was listening and I was rocking those Jewel albums at like 13 years old. It's liberal times. It's breaking through. We have armpid hair. We're going to go to the Lilith Fair. I wrote a little song there. Did you like it? Yes, I love it. Yeah, growing out of this world that Tracy was definitely rooted in right before. where she got famous with the women's festivals and the folk scene in Boston and Cambridge.

So she was a sign of things to come. And I think that the excitement around her when she first became famous showed people that this could be very profitable and popular, which it was because it was awesome. Totally. And I think it's interesting, like when you talk about adult contemporary music, because like we were saying, like they don't. call it women's music anymore. It sort of like became under this umbrella term of adult contemporary.

And it's other music that I think you could relate to Tracy Chapman fits into that, like, which also didn't come until after. Things like Houdy and the Blowfish and Blues Traveler, you know, like those are also kind of like had similar roots and just like kind of presented differently. But like this all starts to like be the fucking thing. in the mid-90s. But, you know, Tracy Chapman, she was already doing it, babe. Right.

And then was priming all of us for, give me one reason. Exactly. And no wonder it was a smash hit. Right. Beat out David Matthews. Right, right. Knocked him out of the park.

The logical conclusion of all of these events is Tracy Chapman is invited to perform at the Lilith Fair in 1997, the first Lilith Fair. I like to imagine there would have been outrage and just like, I guess people didn't really have a Twitter or space to express their outrage together. But I like to imagine people would have gone insane if they hadn't had Tracy Chapman at Lilith Fair. Because she, I don't know, she wasn't that old at the time. Totally.

It still feels like she was a wise presence there. Totally. Listen, all respect due to Lilith Fair, it was sick. Like, first of all, everyone, go read Jessica Hopper's amazing history of Lilifair and Vanity Fair. You can use your Google and find it. It's also in her book, which is excellent. But, like, the fucking booking on this shit was fire. Emily Lewis, Fiona Apple, Indioree, Tracy Bonham, Cheryl Crowe, your favorite, Sarah McLaughlin.

Fucking Suzanne Vega, babe. This is Jewel. And then even like the Juliana Hatfield. Fucking sick. More Cheba. This shit was fire. And I want the documentary of the behind the scenes, everything. I want to see them all hanging out. But yeah, you're totally right. There were a million heavy hitters on this. And Tracy Chapman was definitely one of them.

She was main stage. She was one of the main. So when telling stories came out, it's the year 2000. It's the millennium baby. times have changed. Do you know what I'm saying? Brittany Spears has entered the chat. The things that are like ruling the world are say my name by Destiny's Child. It's real pop time. Real Christina Aguilera, what a girl wants, in sync, backstreet boys.

That's the vibe. Right. And Tracy's completely outside of that whole aesthetic, like usual, like she was with her first album, keeping it consistent. It's true. I will say also a little song called Maria Maria by Santana was also on the top of the charts. That song is so good. But also, you know, it was higher than that one. It's a hot one. Oh my God. Inches from the Minders song. Those were both. I feel so lucky to have been alive shortly before 9-11 when this happened, I guess.

I feel so lucky to have been alive in the time of our Lord Smooth by Rob Pomas since 100%. 100%. Tracy was not on that wave, but she was still doing her own things. No, Tracy was not on that wave. And incidentally, she did not chart either because I think people were, they were looking for some other things at the time. It was like, it was full-on boy band and Britney Spears pop stuff. And then the rest of it was like, how to say, like, the dredges of alt rock that had become things like Blink 182, pop punk was rising. Wonderful by Everclear.

Right. And at the same time, Tracy is not someone that is like going to do well on TRL. Sure. She's not going to go. If they invite her, she's going to be like, no thank you, Carson Daylor. Right. So I can totally see why she didn't get as much attention because she wasn't out on the town. Totally. So the thing about this album, though, that I don't know, I think like regardless of whether or not, and we can, I think we can say pretty clearly that Tracy Chapman's not an artist that, like, reacts to the times and tries to, like, give the people what they want. But I think, like, any artist absorbs a bit of the, like, climate, right?

And this album is cleaner sounding. And I have to imagine that was on purpose. I do imagine it's on purpose and I wonder, like obviously we don't know if she was purposely trying to incorporate like a more modern sound, but I don't see why she wouldn't have wanted to. And I wonder to if just reuniting with David Kirshenbaum. Totally. I don't have tabs on what he was doing in the interim, but they both had been in the game for 12 years by this point. I wonder just how many new. ideas they came to the sessions with. And I imagine to that Tracy, after co-producing her last

couple albums, just had a lot more in her in her bag as far as a production trick she wanted to try. Also, this album has Emily Lou Harris on it, singing on the only one. This is around the time that she totally stops talking to press. She doesn't completely stop talking to press, but she definitely has a way tighter hold on it. Right. Thor Christensen actually got an interview with Tracy Chapman in 2000, and he noted that he passed a pre-interview screening, which, quote, consists of two random writing samples to Tracy,

to Chapman's publicist who passes them onto the singer who reads them and decides whether their tone is to her liking. Oh, my God. Don't you wish you could do that with, like, everyone who would, ever speak to you. Like, I just want to have that as like a two-layer process before anyone could even talk to me that I would appreciate your tone and that you're not a lot. Some samples, some references from others. So I just think that's very interesting, especially because of the time where she definitely needed reporters to be getting the word out about her albums.

But also this interviewer just kind of asked her some fun questions, which I think is interesting because nobody, everyone's always asking Tracy Chapman serious things because they imagine she's super serious. Right. Not if she comes on this pod. Tracy Chapman, come on the pot. I have all sorts of stupid questions to ask you that are not serious and are mostly fun. I would love to hear that.

Let's hear, you know what, as, and I'm sure we'll talk about this later, but I feel like she shows off her sense of humor a lot more as her albums go on. So I lied it a little earlier about it not charting. Like it didn't have a single that charted, but like as an album, it did okay. Like it hit 33 on the Billboard. chart, which is pretty high out of 200. Which I think shows that she still has a solid fan base, no matter, like through, yes. Yeah, dedicated, are going to run out of by the CD.

Even in the year 2000 when a little thing called Daster has dropped. But I don't think Tracy Chapman's fans were like torrenting. But I'm sure tons of people torrented Fascar. Oh, I torrented Fascar. A thousand percent this guy right here in my dorm room and you see. Santa Barbara, smashed the button, waited the two and a half hours or however long it took for it to complete downloading, and then I owned it. Beautiful.

Sorry, Tracy Chapman. Please earmuffs. But the single, Telling Stories, which is like the title single, did really well, apparently in Europe. It was a big, big thing. So why don't we hear telling stories? That was Telling Stories. I love that song.

It's interesting because I feel like it's, I hear what you're saying. it is a little shinier. It does sound more, I guess not evolved is not the right word, but like it does sound like now maybe like she's had a band for a while. She's writing with maybe the input of other people. I'm not to say that she didn't write this song, but just more like writing with the idea that like, oh, I have all these other instruments to play with, you know? I definitely do think you're hearing an artist just growing into being someone playing with a band

more and being a co-producer more, whereas in her early career, she was just used to being alone with her guitar and totally having to carry every single song. And now, yeah, she just is growing as a musician. We love to see it. We love to see it. And more importantly, we love to hear it. Yes. So this new album, Let It Rain, comes out in two years later, 2002. I fucking love this album and I forgot about it but I love it because it's produced by John Parrish who I eternally stand because he's a goddamn G co-produced sorry let me make sure to be clear about that John Parrish famously produced a lot of PJ Harvey who is my number one soulmate and some some might say look alike the panic on your face like it's just like what do I say

first you could say yes Yassie you look so much like PJ Harvey that's so just like PJ Harvey. But also this album, it has that much cooler mood to it that I love. Totally. I love Another Sun is an incredible song. Too many critics said that it was too depressing of an album, which is like, who cares?

Like, I want to be moody. I want to be in this vibe that she and John Parrish are creating. Yeah. Also, babe, have you heard Fast Car? Like, what did you come to? this store for? What were you shopping for here? Because I don't think it's the right place. And also it was a very, very dark time. Like, it was just America at its worst in a long time. So yeah, it's post 9-11. Exactly. And she recorded it early in 2002. So I think in that context, it makes a lot of sense.

But also, it's just a good album. It's vibey. It has such a vibe. I mean, I think if anyone's wanting to like contextualize it better, like, to listen to like to bring you my love by PJ Harvey, which is another album he co-produced. Again, they're not sonically similar, but like you can see how good he is at bringing a fucking vibe. Right. Like the song almost feels very bedroom, intimate, indie rock to me, which I love. Almost saved you and myself Almost won but it doesn't count But that another sun song is my favorite

Do you have a favorite song on this album? I love I Am Yours Oh That song is so good I know it's really so good I don't know this like I love broken I love broken Yeah they're all really good

It's hard to like choose right But yeah, I think maybe you're the one in Broken are my two favorites. I Am Yours is just like the epitome of her beautiful-ass love songs. I feel like people say, Baby, Can I Hold You Tonight is. But I Am Yours to me is above Baby Can I Hold You? Dude, same. I think Baby Can I Hold You has like a swing to it, which is like nice and fun. But this one has like more grovitas if you know.

Yes. It's very just you and me here. Yeah, it's very intimate. Very intimate. Yes. This is I Am Yours. That was I Am Yours. So after Let It Rain, a few years later, we got the album Where You Live in 2005.

There's many items that I find interesting pertaining to this album. One is that she switches co-producers again, and she goes with this man whose name I can't totally pronounce properly with. I think it's shod, Blake. Oh, I was just saying Chad. It has a tea in front of it. To Chad? Sorry, to Shod, Chad, whatever your name is.

Who had previously produced fish, but then also Bonny Rate. So the Bonny rate makes sense. But then my most favorite thing is that Flee from the Red Hot Chili Peppers plays bass on this album. I don't know on every song, but he, I think it's only on the song, Change. But how sick is that? Yes. Well, it's on change. Talk to You in America, which is like this boisterous song about American imperialism and capitalism. And there's not anything like especially flea-ish about his bass playing, I feel like, on the songs. I feel like I would never.

Right. You're not like, there it is. Bamb-blom-blum-bom-bom. Yeah, it's very low-key. But I feel like, I think I read that he was connected to Chad Blake somehow or that's. Well, here's what Tracy Chapman said, which I love this because, like, first of all, on this show, we stand Flea and the entire band of the Red Hot Chili Peppers. But secondly, Flea in particular has time and time again proven himself to be a person of excellent taste when it comes to music. Like, he just is a music lover and he has really good taste. So Tracy Chapman said in an interview, I made some great friends on this album, says Chapman, who in addition to acoustic guitar tried her hand at clarinet. Fun fact. I had run into Flea a few times over the years,

and he'd said to me at one point, if you're making a record and you want me to, I'll play on it. So I took him up on the offer. So I feel like Flea was just a fan. And he was like, listen, Tracy Chapman, I'll play on your record whenever you want me to. Oh, I had never heard that quote before.

Yes, I love that. You know, the thing about Tracy is she has fans in every pocket. Like obviously Neil and Emmy Lou are probably her family's. Flea, as we said, BB King. Just like Nikki Minaj, maybe not anymore. Well, we can talk about that. Well, I think it's interesting because there is like a, there's a specific type of artist that is like the artist's artist, right? Where it's like, you're like, okay, they are just beloved by so many artists.

Like we talk about some of them on the show. Like the Minutemen is a good example. It's not related to Tracy. But you understand what I'm saying. Like there are so many bands like that and artists who like maybe aren't as huge. as the people that idolize them or are fans of them, but, you know, it's such a badge of honor. Yeah, I feel like Tracy Chapman is definitely one of those artists. And that's how she gets all these amazing people to play on her records.

Let's hear America because I like Rowdy. And also, I think this is a chance for us to, like, listen up for Flea, even though we won't hear it. Here is America. That was America. Tracy Chapman, tell us how you really feel. Yeah. You know? She's not mincing words here.

No. And just expertly connecting colonialism to all of our problems today. Honestly, an early adopter of hating Christopher Columbus and we stand. We were already on that wave. But she's bringing it to the mainstream point for sure. Yeah. But I feel like who was talking about it in 2005? Maybe a lot of people.

When did Twitter come around? Yeah, I don't know. I'm Haitian American, so I just feel like us Haitian's been, yeah, yeah, we've been hating him for sure. Born hating Mr. Christopher Columbus. Absolutely. This song slaps, and I can see why Flea was included in it, because it has, you know, it has a flea vibe. Yeah, the, like, the ho for me, I don't know if he did that vocal part, but for me, I can see him on that song, yeah. I really hope to he did. And I feel like this is such a detour on the album because it's the most uptempo.

Right. Totally. Right. And she could have taken it out for consistency on the vibe of the album. But I feel like this was just a, I feel like in the past people have gotten on Tracy Chapman for being too preachy maybe. But I feel like she was just like, yeah, I'm going to put this song on my album because we need to critique this terrible state of our nation. So I appreciate that. Tracy Chapman, write the Jeff Bezos song.

The world needs it. We're waiting. 2021. Yeah, there's a good Guardian review. I think that kind of like captures that like, they say 17 years on from her first album. 17 years. 17 years.

Fast car. Tracy Chapman is still unique. She is after all the one black American performer to have mixed soft rock balladry with angry lyrics and brought issues of politics and race to the concert hall in such a disarming fashion. Her new album follows the usual format with her acoustic guitar matched against minimalist backing, strong melodies, and sturdy but gloomy songs. Why does that feel like just slightly racist to me?

The angry part? The one black American performer? Like that can't possibly be true. Yeah, I feel like Tracy Chapman, ever since the beginning of her career, has people have wanted to hold her up as the, like we talked about this before, the savior of pop music. Yeah. But there's always people out doing amazing things all the time. And also people are always talking about how angry she is.

And I feel like she's just like realistically, I don't know, it's just like an understandable anger about what she's talking about. It's anger. It's sadness. It's longing. It's wistfulness. It's hope. So much of her music is hopeful. I'll tell you what, though.

Dylan doesn't like it when I do this. But I just find it so interesting, like reminding people what's going on in this. the year that these albums are coming out. And the number one album of the year in 2005 was The Massacre by 50 Cent. I take you to the candy shop. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I remember so clearly when that album came out.

Also, may I point out that the third highest selling album of that year was Green Day American Idiot? I don't know that anyone was calling Green Day angry. Let's up, plumberment all my fuck America. Mm-hmm. They were like, wow, genius. Rock opera. Let's get this on Broadway. But when Tracy has something to say, it's like, we've heard you complain about America before.

Yeah, that's enough, babe. But Green Day, go ahead. Tell us more about whatever it is you're talking about in sort of vague terms that aren't actually. So, like, Tracy's like Christopher Columbus war criminal. And Green Day is like, there's an American idiot. Things are bad. I respect any artists, like, talking about the things that are important to them because obviously that's what you're supposed to do. But one thing I appreciate about Tracy so much is the culture.

and the values that she is upholding with her music or the things that she is, the values that she's promoting with her music are just strong from the beginning and consistent throughout her career. She didn't just discover she hated capitalism. Like after she, you know, sold a million copies of her seventh album or something. She has been on this talking about this. Totally. No disrespect to Green Day, but, you know, just never any disrespect to Green Day on this podcast. Why don't we hear another song off this album just to sort of counterbalance America?

Because I feel like you were saying, like, there's also like classic-ish sort of Tracy Chapman, beautiful haunting songs. I'm thinking either the single change or 3,000 miles. Let's do change. Okay. This is change. That was change. Really, really beautiful.

And really good question. How bad do things need to get? yet before you will change whatever you're doing to fuck up your life. My therapist says that that's pretty much like how things work is like you have to build up enough tension to the point where it's like unbearable and then you make change. But it's not going to happen until you build up that tension. Did your therapist say that or did Tracy Chapman just say that? They both said that.

I feel like in there in cahoots to get me to change. So this album basically like increasing. her albums, I don't want to say her doing worse, but like, in general, like, I think, you know, as like in the cultural conversation as an artist, Tracy Chapman sort of receding, I mean, her diehard fans, obviously are still picking up these albums. And, you know, 2005, we're still sort of pre-streaming.

2008 is when her last album comes out, right? She hasn't put out anything since Our Bright Future. I believe that is her least well-performing album. It got up to number 57 and it was not on the charts very long. But I feel like this is one of her best, if not her best, second best album, just in this crispness and this very careful, interesting production. And from the beginning, to me, it felt like a goodbye album. And then later I learned that it was the end of her 20-year record, concert. So I can totally...

She had a 20-year contract? Well, I'm not sure if it was for eight albums or 20 years, but this... Right. This record contract took her from, I believe, mid-20s into her 40s now. Like, this feels like her breeziest album. It feels like there's the least tension on this album. Right. Like, almost like, do you feel like it's like the kind of thing where I was like,

She's like, okay, I fulfilled my obligation. I don't want to do this anymore. I wonder because, you know, she can afford to just make music and live and not have to release anything. I think a lot of questions I saw from critics in reading coverage from all her albums was like, why is she continuing to make albums? And, you know, one answer is because she's a musician and that's what she loves to do. But also because she was locked into a record contract, like so many artists, though they're not usually, I don't believe they're not usually this long.

but I've never heard of such a thing. Yeah, so that's very, I would love to hear her speak more on that. And I think also that like gives us clues and hints as to why she just why she's so tightly controlled her music and the rights to her music for so long. Well, we can talk about that right with the Nikki Minaj situation. Yes, and even before with sometimes I rammed slow, which had a, used the fast car guitar riff from 1991. Sometimes I rhyme slow, sometimes I rhyme quick, quick, quick, quick, quick. Okay, but they didn't clear it.

I saw an interview with Smooth B that said they did clear the sample, which it doesn't sound like an exact sample. It sounds like someone else playing the riff and then they recorded it. But he said that they cleared it with Tracy's people and she insisted on taking all the publishing rights for the song, which it seemed like he was kind of miffed about. He said other artists that they worked with never, like Prince never asked for that. But I'm like, you know what, Tracy, get your money. Totally. Yeah, exactly.

Like, if you're going to use a guitar riff that's that recognizable as like the crux of your song, then like that's what you're selling the song based off of, you know, so accept the consequences. It's like 20% short of doing a cover. Exactly. So this album, last album, is co-produced by Larry Klein, who I think I had previously worked with Joni Mitchell. And was married to. Oh my God. Doi. I was going to say even from the first song, Sing for You, I feel like it's really easy to interpret it as a goodbye audiences album. Totally. Interestingly, that song was released digitally and it's noted in the Wikipedia, which means that

like that was maybe the first. You know what I mean? Like that's like kind of what was happening at the time. This is like, this is still pre-streaming in in any sort of like real, Spotify type way, but there's obviously like iTunes existed and buying MP3s online existed. And obviously torrenting for free MP3s existed. So this is sort of like a new era that these past two albums are existing in. Yes, she went through so many different eras of pop music with sets, CDs, Napster as you were talking about streaming. But it was, yeah, definitely right before a huge shift.

in the culture. Why don't we hear Sing for You just to get us into the vibe of this album? This is Sing for You. That was Sing for You. And that was the last time she sang for us. Amongst the other tracks on the album. Do you see what I did there? Yes, that was great. I feel like this, I know we can't just compare everything to FastCard, but also we can. This has a similar, like, wispleness. And it's like, sad, like nostalgia, yeah. Yeah, but then it has like the do-d-do-do that like kind of like there's like a upbeatness to it that like sort of counter. It does sound really joanie-ish to me in like in the best possible way. Mm-hmm. Like I even think like vocally like I feel like her singing as a little more joanie-ish on this

song. But I love it. It's great. I can hear that in some other songs from the past as well. That's why is her voice for sure. Have you listened to I Did It All? I mean, we should hear at least a clip. I feel like this is her at her funniest, most let loose.

It's kind of an I did it my way. Frank Sinatra, I don't give any fuck's storytelling vibe. So I think so. I love that for us. Actually, why don't we hear this song? Here is I Did It All. That was I Did It All. First of all, I've never heard more of a song that's saying like,

Bye everyone. So I don't know if people were surprised that she didn't come back. And also just to give producer Dillon some credit, she did say sex in the city core because the first lines of this song are a cosmopolitan at Manhattan. Yes, Tracy hanging out with the girls. Yeah, brunching, talking about dildos and anal. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

But yes. And I love that she, this is a very different. character for her to take on. For example, like, this isn't like the working class underdog yearning for a better life or dreaming of love. It's this

washed up performer that someone that like people need to peel off the floor and everything. And that is exactly the opposite of Tracy Chapman's persona or just like how the public sees her. So I just thought this was a very funny side

of her. Yeah. But is very different from everything else. I think it's like a bit of a fuck you song in a kind of in the most way that I think Tracy Chapman would do a fuck you song like to maybe that like you're saying like the industry or whoever like and that alone makes it so cool but then it's delivered in this very like saccharine sort of packaging, you know? I think you're right that it's perhaps her most like the song that we can most interpret as a reaction to public perception of her.

Totally. Who can relate me? I also slept in late. stayed up for days, partied hard, lived my 20s in a haze. You did it all. Okay, so how old were you in 2008? I was 18 when this album was released. So at 18 was Tracy Chapman already on your radar?

I only knew for her famous songs, Give Me One Reason to Stay Here and Fast Car. She was not on my radar beyond that. I'm trying to remember what I was listening to. I feel like I was still just constantly listening to grunge all the time. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so Tracy Chapman wasn't really on my radar,

except for those two songs which were beloved and omnipresent for my entire life. I feel like I didn't really get into her until after college when my friend at the time was like, we were listening to Fast Car and crying. And my friend was like, did you know this song is about a woman? And that fucking, I mean, I don't know that it is. But that blew my mind. Tracy Chapman's gay. And I was like, what? For some reason, that just like changed my entire perception of the song and my appreciation for it and made me want to seek out her other music more.

Why? I think because it was a surprise to me that my whole life I had been listening to a black gay woman in the mainstream with this ultra popular song. And I feel like to me, with that interpretation, which is a way a lot of queer people, I believe, hear the song. It just felt that much more tragic and sweet and meaningful, I guess. So I feel like I was like discovering my own queerness at the time. So I was very much intrigued by her. Totally. And so that's when I started discovering her music more. Well, speaking of our fandoms, we have tapped a few other massive Tracy Chapman fans to come talk to us. Do you want to hear? Yes. Do you want to hear their little words? Absolutely. Here's the fast car of fans. I was a teenager by them with literally

no hope and I listened carefully to those songs, songs like talking about revolution. She's got a ticket, mountains of things and they really changed my life. I started believing in me. She gave me the strength I needed. Tracy's lyrics spoke to me because they dealt with many of the issues I also felt strongly about and were much deeper and much more meaningful than most of the pop music that came out during that time.

And Tracy led to me having a bit of an intellectual awakening, I guess. I would go in research lyrics, words even, looking up the definitions and meanings and really set me off on the path. to where I am now really. Thinking about the way that she weaves the songs together on the album and you have like one song that's really intimate

and really, you know, about an interpersonal relationship and like, baby, can I hold you, comes to mind, for example. And then like two songs prior to that, or a song prior to that, whatever, you have this song that's about a larger societal issue that I think, like, she does this really nice job of sort of weaving those, narratives together and like helping people sort of find something that they identify with in each of those that also like makes her music so evergreen.

She really represents to me someone who's kind, someone who's considerate and cares about the world and other people and the people in the world. She's fiercely intelligent but also quite retiring and shy which I also related to. As a shy girl who'd always felt different, I felt an instant connection. It blew my mind really. The subtle world influence from reggae on. She's got a ticket to sort of Americana and blues. I've given me one reason. And there's even Eastern bits and pieces on some of the songs.

So, yeah, I was blown away, even Irish, actually. I think for me, part of what makes Tracy Chapman so impactful as I think about the way that she's sort of, like, influenced my tastes now and my taste throughout the years. And I guess I should preface this by saying I was born three years after Tracy Chapman's debut, album was released, is her ability to sort of make you feel nostalgic even if you haven't heard it before. And I think, you know, for me at least growing up listening to that, you know, before

dinner or like before we had guests over and things like that, make it really special. But I also feel like she has that really specific sound where you can listen to it for the first time and feel like you've known it your entire life. 20 years ago, I created the website about Tracy Chapman.com. which is still today the only website on her. I published two books about letters and words written by fans about her and the impact she had on them. I also co-run the Tracy Chapman Online community that you can find on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and YouTube.

We post about her and it's really great to see the reactions and the comments of her fans, even if it's been 12 years that she released her last studio album. I have the absolute pleasure of managing and maintaining Tracy Chapman Online, which is a fan community. We're at nearly 2 million followers across social now. So if you do want to celebrate the legacy and the artistry of Tracy, then do give us a follow. Listen, huge shout out Tracy's undying European fan base. And I loved hearing that, like, you know, much like yourself, like I think a lot of Tracy

Chapman fans are younger. And, like, she kind of has that timeless eternal quality to her music. Like, it doesn't feel... I mean, of course, there's, like, bits and pieces that feel a little bit 90s. But, like, by and large, like, as a whole, her canon of work is, like, really, like, could be from any... Can be listened to it any time. And it hits and it feels...

It doesn't feel out of place. Absolutely. It's all solid, carefully. meticulously made amazing, like, development and instrumentation and arrangements as you go along. That was so nice. I almost cried a couple times. Did you guys, did you almost cry? I got teary. The French woman really sent me. Oh my God. That was so wonderful to hear. And I relate to them so much because it just feels like Tracy Chapman is the underdog and it feels like she is with you.

by your side all the time. Tracy Chapman's never going to do a song like calling you a broke bitch or something. Do you see where there's only one set of footprints? That's where Tracy Chapman was carrying. Exactly. No, that's exactly it though.

She is like Jesus in that way. But that was really awesome. I'm so glad that you guys got those because that's really awesome to hear Tracy Chapman gives people hope. Also, can we just talk about how Tracy Chapman has no official social media presence. Does that surprise you in any way? She made people pass like a six-point security check to interview her.

Right. She's not going to be like, hey, babes, here's an Instagram story of my dog and I had some oatmeal today, loving life. Right. There is a social media presence, but it's run, it's an official presence that is not like run and maintained by her. Stefan, who we heard from in the fan voices, runs it. Right.

That's what I was, that's what I was going to say. is that her fandom is so, I don't even know if they called it a fandom at the beginning. But anyway, her fandom is so dedicated, so hardcore that they run her entire website. They run her entire social media presence. And when you look on Facebook at the Tracy Chapman page, the engagement is high. Every post has hundreds of comments, shares. There's so many people that are eager to talk about Tracy Chapman. And the first person you got talking was totally right.

We don't talk about her enough, which is. That's so true. Unless it was to talk about how Nikki Minaj sampled her without asking. And then Trace Chapman was like, excuse. Not on my watch, babe. Yeah, very controversial. I know in Nikki's lawsuit, she was saying that this was a huge blow to creativity for artists, which I... What?

I don't think so because I feel like Tracy Chapman has a right to be protective of her intellectual property. I'm pretty sure if anyone was like, I put a Nicki Minaj clip on my song, we didn't want to pay you. Is that okay, babe? Like, it's all in the name of creativity. I don't think she'd be like, yes, I love to foster creativity amongst young artists and like whatever you guys want to do. The song was sorry, by the way, if we haven't mentioned the Nicki Minaj song, sorry. And it samples, baby, can I hold you tonight? Right.

And then it was leaked onto Hot 97. And the question is, did Nikki give it to Funkmaster Flex or did he get it from his bloggers, as he said? Right. But the big thing was just that it shouldn't have been released. But I feel like Tracy Chapman in the past has been very much a champion of women taking ownership of their career and their music and their image. And I think this is just in line with that and just makes a stronger case for other artists protecting their work going forward. And again, it just feeds into like Tracy Chapman's whole vibe, right? From the beginning, she's known exactly who she was as an artist and exactly how she wants her art to be and to be received.

And she has taken a stand where she's like, I have a blanket policy that I don't want my music sampled. And people should respect that. Yeah, you're so right. It's been from the beginning since before anybody, the world knew her name. She had this very tight control over her music, which I think is awesome. Well, Anne, it's been a real joy and a pleasure to talk with you today. It has been quite a journey. We've been in the fast car of Tracy Chapman speeding along the podcast highway, speed so fast.

I felt like I was drunk at several points. I don't know about you. I felt like I could be someone. And what song should we close? out with. What song should we leave Tracy Chapman Hive and new Tracy Chapman Hive with for them to drive their fast cars into the sunset with? 100% that song needs to be something to see from our bright future. Amazing. Well, Anne, thank you so much again for joining me. Come back every Thursday for a new episode of Bandsplane. And here is Something to See by Tracy Chapman.

If you liked what you heard today, subscribe for more episodes of Bandsplain. Splane, only on Spotify. Our wonderful guest today was Anne Derek Gio. Follow her on Twitter at Ann, A-N-N-D-E-R-R-I-C-K-G. Huge, huge thanks to the Tracy Chapman mega fans you heard on this episode. Riel M. Stefan Evans, Brian O'Loughlin, and Sinye Dietlefsson. Bansplane is a Spotify original show. This episode was produced by My Ticket to Anywhere, producer Dylan, aka Dylan Tapper

Rupert Rupert and edited by Niko Paolela with help from Casey Simonson and Tari Miller. Executive producers for Bansflane

are Gina Delvac and me, Yossi Sala. Our gorgeous and catchy theme song was composed and performed by

Bethany Cocentino and Jennifer Clavin and graciously recorded by Carlos de Garza in

Los Angeles California. Special thanks to Felipe Guillermo, Robert Adler, Leah Edwards, David McDunna,

Dana, Deanna, Deanna, Jessica Hopper, and once again, the television program One Tree Hill. Come back every Thursday for a new episode of Bansplain, only on Spotify. As he came home with the ritisserie chicken.