Bankless - 123 - Investing in the Chainsmokers | Drew Taggart & Alex Pall

Starting point is 00:00:06 Welcome to bankless where we explore the frontier of internet money and internet finance. This is how to get started, how to get better, and how to front run the opportunity. This is Ryan Sean Adams. I'm here with my partner, David Hoffman, and we're here to help you become more bankless. Guys, we have the chain smokers on the podcast. And they're super chill. They're awesome. I was blown away by this episode, David.

Starting point is 00:00:31 It's just so cool. I mean, we cover so many things from like the history of them starting up. They see themselves as kind of creative founders to how they got into investing towards the depth of knowledge and skill that they apply to investing. And the business savvy, the finance savvy, the economics savvy, the investor savvy there was present. And then we talked about NFTs in the music industry. And I saw the same things there. These guys are super cool. And I knew I'd like this episode, but like I'm coming away from it actually blown away.

Starting point is 00:01:01 Like you have to listen to this episode, Bankless listeners. Yeah. And Drew said the line that when anyone says this line, I'm like, okay, we're friends now, which is you play long-term games with long-term people. And it doesn't matter what industry you're in. And I mean, Drew and Alex, the chain smokers, they're musicians, right? They're DJs. But that's just only one of the things that they do.

Starting point is 00:01:21 They got their fingers in a little bit of everything in this world right now. And it seems that they take that ethos of playing long-term games and they apply it to their fans, their audience, but also their investments and what they're doing in Web3. And so I just feel like very aligned with like the shenanigans that they get up to because it sounds like a fun time. And I'm just definitely going to keep a closer eye on what they're up to in the World Wide 3 now. Yeah, connected with these guys very well. I think they're definitely crypto natives and they're going to be leaning the vanguard and kind of the artists and creator space when it comes to taking some of the things the crypto industry is building and actually applying them. I'm super excited, enthusiastic, just their ethos of like you got to deliver value to your community.

Starting point is 00:01:59 They exude their own ethos. Yeah. Yeah, it's awesome. Anyway, you guys will enjoy this episode. It is absolutely fantastic. We're going to get right to the episode with Drew and Alex from the train smokers. But before we do, we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible. Rocket Pool is your friendly, decentralized Ethereum staking protocol.

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Starting point is 00:04:56 the most successful artists of this freaking decade. But did you also know these guys are talented investors, including crypto investors? They actually have an NFT out where they released a portion of their album royalties to their fans as an NFT. It was pretty awesome. We got creators turned investors turned crypto entrepreneurs. Alex and Drew, welcome to bankless guys. Thank you. Thank you. Very excited to be here for the show for quite some time. That's incredible to me, Alex. It's awesome to have you, man. And of course, does the chain and chain smokers? Does that stand for blockchain? Is that? Yes. You started 10 years ago, try to connect to the world. Guys, we're going to talk about a few things, but a few of the parts we want to get to is obviously

Starting point is 00:05:38 hearing your journey on the artist side of things, because that's a huge part, right? It's like artist slash entrepreneur. And then how you've parlayed that, transition that into an investment career, which is pretty awesome to see. And then what your thoughts on crypto are. So why don't we start with like the rise of chain smokers? How'd you guys even me? How'd you get started? Do you want to take that one, Drew? Yeah, I mean, we both have different perspectives on this that ended at the same place, but I was finishing school.

Starting point is 00:06:04 I was aspiring producer. I really was obsessed with dance music, and this is kind of before dance music had really taken off in the U.S., especially. And I just fell in love with it in my high school years, and then it was my secret passion. I would just every second of free time I was sitting in Ableton Live, the program that we still used today. trying to figure out how to make these sounds that I'd heard in this music. And, you know, like, I never thought I could really make it a career. And then really luckily right after I graduated, you know, I met Alex who had started the chain smokers in New York City.

Starting point is 00:06:38 And they were, you know, DJing around. They had a, you know, a good brand that they had built. And they were playing. It was him and another kid named Rhett. And they were playing parties all over the place. And the other kid decided he wanted to go do his own thing. And Alex wanted to find, I guess, a replacement. He always saw the chain smokers as a duo, and I was coming out of college,

Starting point is 00:06:58 really passionate about, you know, it's basically the same vision that Alex was going after. We grew up on a lot of the same music, and we were introduced by a friend of a friend, and I became the new chain smoker, and that was probably 2012, and we just started from there, woke up every day, tried to figure out how to make songs that people would care about, find a unique sound.

Starting point is 00:07:18 It sounded like us, and took some time, but we got there. Alex, what was the story from your perspective? You alluded to how you had a different version, version of the story. Can you tell us from the Alex side of things? And also, when did it become obvious that you guys were good at making music? When did that happen? Sure. So from my perspective, or my side of the equation, I had graduated from NYU and I was working as a receptionist an art gallery in Chelsea, New York. I thought I was going to be, you know, work in art, the art business for my life. I kind of always thought that that would be what I was doing. And I think

Starting point is 00:07:49 that was probably just a result of like, that was the only thing I was exposed to. My dad was an art dealer. My mom kind of was a stay-at-home mom. And, like, that was, like, really the only functioning, like, adult, like, career path that I kind of had a good perspective on. And I enjoyed, you know, studying on history and business in school and on a trip to Europe to visit my sister at Bristol, where she was going to school, I, like, really fell in love with, like, dance, electronic music in a different way. Like, I was definitely, you know, familiar with it, enjoyed some songs, but I wasn't, there was, like, this electro scene that was taking over the, like, boys, noise, mastercraft, justice, kind of error of music. And, and, and, and, you know,

Starting point is 00:08:23 And I just, like, love the kind of egalitarianism that, like, I experienced in England. Like, it was, like, everyone was equal. Everyone was having fun on this dance floor. There was no, like, bells or whistles. It was just, like, a ripper of a time. And I was, like, I have to bring this party energy and feeling back to New York City. Luckily, for me, I had, like, promoted all throughout college as, you know, any smart college good who's trying to drink for free does. So I kind of had, like, an understanding of, like, how to throw events and successfully.

Starting point is 00:08:51 And so I threw a party at this place called Le Royale with like a twister theme where I covered the entire club with Twister mats. And it was pretty cool. And it was like a really fun, successful party. And that's when I kind of was like, wait, I kind of want to like keep doing this. And so, you know, over the course of the next five years, this guy read, you know, we like DJed at night basically from like 11 p.m. to 4 a.m. And then I went to work from 10 a.m. to 6 p.m. And over the course of like those five years, I kind of just began to feel a little more. and more disenchanted with the art world.

Starting point is 00:09:23 There's just like a level of nepotism in it that like became very obvious. And, you know, it just was kind of like, I love art, but is this really where my soul and passion belongs? And, you know, Drew kind of talked about when the guy was working with wanted to break off. And I was just like, you know, I got to see this through and I got to see what this comes. But I also recognized that, you know, the wall we were hitting was because we weren't making any music, you know, and that was like the key.

Starting point is 00:09:48 You know, we could play in New York at clubs forever, but in order to grow beyond those borders, it was, you know, about building a brand, you know, with your music and identity that way. And so, you know, I was really fortunate to meet Drew through a mutual friend. And I bought my ex-partner out for like $8,000, which might as well have been like, you know, $40 million at the time to me. Obviously a great return on my investment. And yeah, we just kind of, I quit my job and we just got to work the next day. like a really crazy, you know, thing. But I think the main point is that, like, sometimes you kind of

Starting point is 00:10:23 have to just throw yourself all the way in. You know, you can always, like, hedge your butts and have interests and things and dabble. And, you know, it's really hard to, you know, when you put yourself in a situation where it's like, if I don't succeed, like, I no longer can live in the city, I can no longer afford my apartment. I can no longer eat. Like, all these things happen, that kind of really motivate to go the distance. And, yeah, and that was crazy. And that was like 2012. And that was a really, you know, wild time to be doing. that too. I'm hearing a story of two dudes who just put in the blood, sweat, and tears into a passion that they loved. Is this like an underdog story or in your guys's mind, where you guys are always

Starting point is 00:11:02 eventually going to figure it out and you guys are always going to like become famous artists? Like, what was your own opinion of your own trajectory? Or was it just not clear? And you were just like going day by day trying to just make good music. What was that trajectory like? First of all, it's never clear. But one thing that we did do in the way, the beginning is put ourselves in kind of a do-or-die situation, which was, you know, Alex was like I said, he was working at an art gallery. As soon as we met, he quit his job, which I'm sure they were all like, what are you doing? You know, you've been here for a long time. You have a clear path to having a successful career. And, you know, I had just graduated from Syracuse with,

Starting point is 00:11:41 you know, $150,000 in debt with no real way to pay it back. And so, you know, we saw the opportunity in dance music. Obviously, it was our passion, but that, you know, it was a scene that was getting bigger and bigger by the day. And we thought it was worth the risk, but we definitely put ourselves in an hour and never, you know, we have nothing, like, what am I supposed to do after, you know, I become a DJ? And then it doesn't work out. Like, what kind of job do I get after that? How do I explain that on my resume? So, you know, we definitely put ourselves in a situation where really had to make it work. And I think that's, that's a really value. lesson that we learn kind of unintentionally that, you know, now that we've become investors,

Starting point is 00:12:25 you know, we encourage a lot of our, we try to look for kids that have that mentality that are willing to sacrifice everything that have to make it work to see, you know, put themselves like they have no fallback plan. I think that's been a very valuable lesson that worked out for us. So you guys were like scrappy from the very beginnings, right? It's like this, the story wasn't written in the stars. You had to kind of earn it and you had to kind of work for it. But like, when was it obvious that you'd done something that was going to be huge? Like, was there an inflection point, a certain moment after you started this thing? And it's funny, Alex, that this is like the original investment was actually the chain smokers, right?

Starting point is 00:12:59 Yeah. And now you've parlayed that into an investment career. But like, at what point did you know the investment was going to pay off? I mean, I don't think you, you know, you really ever knew, you know, like, I mean, obviously it was just a matter of being like getting $8,000 back was like the first. So, okay, that was a good investment, which didn't take, you know, that long, to be honest with you. But I think for us, like we've always measured success in small steps, you know, for us, progress can be, you know, growing your fan base from 10 people to 15 people, you know, each week. And I think that's something I try to remind, you know, artists that are younger than us or up and coming that ask us for advice because, you know, it's easy to kind of get lost in the bigger macro picture of where you ultimately want to end up.

Starting point is 00:13:42 And I think it's good to have those big ambitions and believe in yourself that you can't achieve that stuff. But if you measure your success only by that, you're just going to inevitably always be unhappy in moving these goal posts, you know, in unhealthy ways. And so for us, it was kind of like tapping into this indie electronic dance remix scene where we kind of found our first like, I mean, to use like investor terms like product market fit. Obviously, we weren't using language like that back then. But it was like, wait, hold on. This is like really exciting. You know, I think we've tapped into a sound that's really unique to us that we really enjoy that feels, you know, really inherently natural. And we're seeing like results slowly.

Starting point is 00:14:21 You know, like people are tweeting about our songs and following our Facebook page and interacting with us in different ways. And, you know, that was kind of the beginning of when we realized we're like, all right, there's something here that we need to explore further. Like we have to understand what about what it is that is making this feel like the right direction to. go in. And then over the course of, you know, like two years of doing that, we kind of began to, like, really hone in on different things that, you know, help grow our platform and build more community. And then there's like, you know, I always say we've had like five or six different careers in our 10 years or 11 years of doing this. Because there's been some really highs and some real lows that feel like we're starting over again. But this kind of remix error on hype

Starting point is 00:15:02 machine was kind of the first genesis of like, you know, something, something's clicking here. I don't know where this is going, but we're making small progress and it feels great. I actually remember stumbling across you guys on hype machine back in my college days and just seeing in parentheses chain smokers remix over and over and over again. Definitely my first exposure. The way that you guys speak, the words that you use are very much illustrative of a business mindset. And so it makes no surprise that there is actually a venture capital fund that we're eventually going to be and come talking about that is where this story goes. And Alex, you talked about

Starting point is 00:15:40 like your $8,000 investment, how it's like a, you know, great return on investment. Drew, you talk about like taking risks. And I'm wondering, was this a mentality that you guys had from day one? Or is this something that you kind of grew into as you became successful? Like, where did this business mindset come from? I think just like the willingness to survive and make a career for ourselves. I mean, I think that happened from day one. And, you know, the first thing that we did, you know, the hype machine days is, you know, okay, cool, Alex and I meet one night and we wanted, we decided we want to, you know, do this together. Okay, what do we want to do? We want to make original music. Okay, how do you do that? You know, I've been producing pretty shitty music for a while,

Starting point is 00:16:19 but I know how to do it. But what's going to be the sound that really sets us apart? Or we look up to guys like Calvin Harris and I guess Zed at the time too and people that have more like vocal-driven dance music. And we decided we wanted to do that. that in Hype Machine was kind of our first. Also, at the same time, we loved dance music. There was all this amazing indie music that was being posted on Hype Machine. So for those who are listening that don't know what Hype Machine, it was the first blog aggregator of the internet. And essentially it was like a chart of the hottest 50 songs from that week.

Starting point is 00:16:53 And the way that you got onto that chart was how many times you were blogged and how many times you were liked once you got on the chart. And these were all like artists that like no one in the dance world. So, you know, dance were starting to pop on the U.S. This is like 2012, 2013. That was starting to pop off in the U.S. And everyone was remixing like pop music. It was a bunch of like Lady Gaga remixes and Tau Cruz, whatever was popping at the time.

Starting point is 00:17:16 And, you know, we grew up on indie music. And so we decided, you know, why don't we just remix this stuff? No one is really doing that. And this is kind of inherent. While we're figuring out our sound, maybe like start remixing this type of music. And so what we would do is we'd go on a hype machine. We'd find they're like, you know, the 50 hottest songs of the week there. And we would reach out to every single artist and beg them to let us do a free remix.

Starting point is 00:17:39 And, you know, one out of 50 would say yes. We'd get the stems and we'd sit in our apartment all week just like trying to make a new dance version of that indie song, which in its own was like kind of a novel thing. There weren't a lot of people remixing that type of music. But, you know, that type of sound really ended up being what the chain smoker sounds like. But zoom back to where we were, you know, Alex would get these stems. I'd sit there and try to make this remix. And then once I did it, Alex would go into the back end of Hight Machine. And this is like a big realization that we had.

Starting point is 00:18:10 We realized that so Hight Machine was pulling from all these blogs. And all these blogs were run by college kids that just want to get closer to artists. And so we realized they were being serviced with a bunch of really generic promo emails from labels being like super impersonal, talking about a song or whatever. Alex would go in the back end of Hight Machine, find every blog that they pulled music from. find every writer that wrote for that blog. He had this a crazy Excel sheet. He would send every single one of these writers,

Starting point is 00:18:38 a personalized message that was fucking hilarious. Like totally took the piss out of a promotional email. And within three releases, we had a couple things going for us at that point. We had, you know, we were remixing a song they were already posting about. We had a dance remix of it, which was like the hottest genre at the time that was just blowing up.

Starting point is 00:18:56 And they had this like personal connection to the artist. And within three releases, we had an amazing stream of contact with all of these bloggers. We figured out how you could kind of game the chart because you could time out. They were happy to post your stuff because they just liked you. And the remixes were relevant and good. And we kind of game the chart. And we ended up having like 50 number ones on Hy-machine.

Starting point is 00:19:19 And that was like how we built our first fan base. And all those songs were given out for free. And in the beginning, we were begging to do remixes. But as I started to have success on the chart, people were like, please, some people have even paid us to do remix. So that was probably like the first phase of the chain smokers was, you know, remixing indie music. But it was also like the one other benefit was we're also like trying to get better at producing, you know, and we're producing songs with vocals. And we kind of got our chops in that.

Starting point is 00:19:47 We built our, you know, a tiny fan base that felt huge to us at the time. We did like to download if anyone remembers that for, you know, to get our songs, which I helped us build our social. So it was kind of like a multifaceted little hustle there. Dude, that's crazy. And by the way, Alex, that's nerdy as hell. You had an Excel spreadsheet. I mean that in the best of ways, man. That's so awesome. You guys were like Mailchimp, you know, and like all those things that make it so much easier to like blast out, you know, personal looking emails but weren't, you know. So it was like a real nightmare. Yeah. That's crazy. And I'm struck by like how entrepreneurial artists need to be and how entrepreneurial you guys were. It was like looking into like a startup basically and starting this thing from inception and like trying to find the product. market fit. And like, you guys have nailed some product market fit, just in kind of the genre in terms of songs. I mean, it's kind of like we're talking about the early days, the startup days, but now like, I mean, change sparks is in top five artists of the decade easily, one of the biggest

Starting point is 00:20:45 songs of the decade. Like, you guys completely crushed it. What was the back half of this story like? I mean, I think a lot of, we've made many, many mistakes and missteps in our career, you know, some on, pretty much all unintentionally. But like, that's kind of the growth. pains of becoming artists. It's why I really admire certain artists that just seem to effortlessly get it right every time. And you're just like, how are they so good at this? You know, as they become, you know, more famous than Gandhi. And you're just like, they're just so they're naturally dealing with, you know, the public, the PR, the, you know, everything around it. And I'm sure, like, if you spoke to them, you know, I think one thing we realized everyone you speak to, no matter how successful they are, have all sorts of personal challenges and struggles. But for us, I think it, you know, it was, you know, I think. think we always challenge ourselves and push on what's motivate us to work super hard. I think that's kind of been, you know, there's lots of things that I think make what we've done special from, you know, our emphasis on hospitality and relationships to just the work ethic in general, which I think have been kind of the two backbone pieces. But like, you know, we've branched out

Starting point is 00:21:48 into a Keila business, the TV and film business, which is easily the hardest business out there and venture now. And, you know, and I think every time we kind of decide to take something on, We are super self-aware about how challenging it's going to be to get to the next level. And, you know, just like Venture, like the music is like a hits-driven business. You know what I mean? On some levels, people are to say you're only as good as your last hit. I know we don't feel that way. And I feel like that's something we've continued to do is just bet on ourselves.

Starting point is 00:22:17 You know, we've been after we had that song selfie, which is its own book in itself, you know, to discuss. You know, it felt like possibly, you know, that was the end of us. Rick Rubin, who we met with, you know, who's kind of enough to meet with us, was like, you probably should probably just quit and change your name and start over. And we were like, wait, what? Like, that's the advice you're giving us. And obviously, you know, we didn't take it. But, you know, that was like some of the feedback we were hearing. And instead of, we got dropped by Republic Records. Um, after that. Why? Like, why were people, were people like, I mean, I think they, and I don't blame them. I think they expected us to be like

Starting point is 00:22:52 an LMFO type, you know, a group that will release like all these kind of selfie type songs and we were like, hell no, that was never, that song we made in 20 minutes. That was just a joke, you know, and I wouldn't even know how to make another, you know, another one of those wanted. And so they were like, all right, never mind, we're just going to let these guys go, which was actually nice to them because they could have just kept us there and let us die on their shelf. But, you know, we got dropped, which is like the end of most artists careers at that point in time. And we kind of just said, like, you know what? Like, I believe in the music we have coming and we're going to, you know, figure this out.

Starting point is 00:23:27 and hustle and that's when we made roses. And that was like the next beginning to the chain smokers. And this has kind of continued to happen over and over in our career in different ways. And that's why I'd always, you know, it's like, we make some bold decisions, but it's like always kind of the bottom lines always like, let's just bet on ourselves. You know what's the point of living if you're not going to believe in yourself and the things you're doing? And, you know, I don't think we're like super renegades and, you know, like do really crazy things because we're still responsible and thoughtful. But, you know, I think having that sort of mentality has allowed us to kind of continue to push ourselves in different directions and hold ourselves to a certain standard,

Starting point is 00:24:03 even. Yeah, I definitely want to get to the part where we get to the actual business side of things, the artist investor part of this conversation. But before we do there, I want to bring up, there's a dynamic duo between you two. And that's something that me and Ryan can definitely relate to. There's the older, more business-minded person of the group. And then there's also the younger, more creative business of the two. I'm wondering if you agree with the economy and also just talk about the dynamic between you two as a duo. Like, how do you guys make it work? How do you guys balance each other out? Who's good at what? Overall, this, what's the dynamic like? We're looking for relationship tips, guys.

Starting point is 00:24:37 That's what we need. I bought a little graph that I can, now I'm just kidding. It's all in Excel. Yeah, a little Zen diagram. I think that, like, we talked about this before the show started, but I think that's like the luckiest thing that ever happened was us meeting each other. I'm sure you guys, you know, feel the same way about your partnership is, you know, finding someone that has a complementary set of skills, but also is aligned in just how you want to approach life and work and everything, in relationships and everything is just of the most critical importance. And I mean, and it's not just because like, you know, conquer and divide or you can move faster as a pack or anything like that. It's like having someone to lean on when things

Starting point is 00:25:15 aren't good is just as important to have someone to celebrate when things are good. And, you know, I think over the years, like, it's become more clear of the things that, you know, I have strengths in. Like, I'm probably, I'm hyper-organized and responsive. But, like, I'm not even close to as good as a music producer is true. You know what I mean? Like, not even on the same, like, planet. I have my strengths when it comes to music. Like, I can approach it like a kindergartner.

Starting point is 00:25:39 And, you know what I mean? Which I think is helpful also. Yeah, that being said, Alex has the best taste. He's like a curator. It's like, you know, I don't get, like, lost necessarily. sauce and overthink things, which I think is perfect because it's Drew's job to get super technical and hardcore about things. And then I can kind of pull him out of the chaos that he creates. And then conversely, like on the business side, you know, I'm like kind of like off

Starting point is 00:26:04 the cuff, loud mouth. And Drew's like, take a second, be thoughtful about the response. And, you know, and I think like it's a lot, you know, I think my loudmouth has definitely got some trouble a couple times but like i think you know in general it's been a really you know the most important piece about you know the chain smokers because like it wasn't my idea to start a fund you know that was like drew's idea and now it's like one of the things i enjoy most to do and so you kind of like push yourselves in each other into things that you know maybe you wouldn't have ever considered and i think having someone in your life that kind of challenges you and you know forces you out of your comfort zone sometimes is really important. And also to know that you're on a level playing field. Like, you know,

Starting point is 00:26:44 like there's nothing he can convince me to do that. Like, he doesn't also have to suffer through. You know what I mean? And sometimes there's people around you that are like, oh, you should definitely do this. And they're like, well, if you do that, it's because I make, you know, a lot more money. But I don't actually have to go do any of those things. And so I think there's just a level of like transparency and, you know, equality that makes it, you know, really fun. What do you think, Drew, you buy into that? Yeah, I mean, I was just about to say a lot of nice things about Alex. I mean, Alex is the most, I mean, her, the hype machine article thing that I was talking about earlier, you know, where he would go and literally have a spreadsheet of 500, what artist has a spreadsheet, period, of every blogger that rates for every single blog and then has like the diligence to just send them all a personalized email and keep up, like, Alex is the most organized, most thorough.

Starting point is 00:27:40 like will like is always in contact with everybody whether you're you know fucking ken griffin to uh the bartender at the dueling piano bars in st louis that we played in 2013 like he was like responsive to everybody he is like doesn't care always takes care of people is always thoughtful and that's like you're super annoying uh you know but literally like i look at him i'm like dude you got to stop responding to all these people you're going to drive yourself crazy but like he's so organized he's so like on top of it he is so down to earth and and approaches every situation with humility and is so good at reading the room and i think like without those skillsets while they're not musical the chain smokers wouldn't be where they are without that that's something

Starting point is 00:28:28 that's obviously like started like in the context of music that now we started all these other businesses it's been really fascinating to watch that skill set change formats and how it's applicable across different verticals. Are you guys, like, when you guys invest, are you bullish on like partnerships where you kind of see the same dichotomy? I definitely think it's like, it makes for a more interesting company. I mean, I don't necessarily think it could mean an advantage for one company over another, but like, I think it is helpful ultimately because you have two equals, you know,

Starting point is 00:28:59 with the same ambition, you know, hopefully. But like, it also could become really complicated if you don't have a good partnership. Like, who wants to be CFO? Who wants to be CEO? who wants to, you know, work on vacation and who might not anymore. And I think, you know, you see a lot of groups and businesses break up as a result of that. So it's definitely a more challenging road to balance. But if you can find the right partner, like obviously, I think it's much more powerful.

Starting point is 00:29:25 And not to go back, but actually just made me laugh about the Excel spreadsheets. But like, I would email these blogs forever. And it finally got to the point where, like, I started to feel like they weren't posting us anymore. And, like, finally one guy kind of like hit me back and was just like, Like, dude, you're like one of the biggest artists on the planet. Like, I'm a small blog. Like, I'm supposed to write about like up and coming indie artists. Like, you know what I can't be like posting like closer on my channel.

Starting point is 00:29:49 And I was like, what? I was like, I thought we were homies. And it and it kind of was like funny kind of like I remember that moment where you're like, had to like let go of that strategy because it was just like it was. I mean, it didn't matter anymore. You know what I mean? I think like you kind of then when I say didn't matter. Like the relationships always matter.

Starting point is 00:30:08 and having that support, especially at like the grassroots level is the most critical thing as you build community. But like also I think over the course of those years, we realized like I remember getting like a million plays on SoundCloud and being like every motherfucker in the world's heard our song. Like, you know, and then you're like, wait, no, they haven't. Like that's a billion streams. You know what I mean? And like kind of realize over time like how big the world is. You know what I mean? And I think that's kind of what I said in the very beginning about just measuring progress and just being like, you know, I remember playing a show in New York City at some club.

Starting point is 00:30:37 and we used to just play other people's music for a long time, even when we were making music. And then finally someone came up to a side of the show and was like, why didn't you play any of your remixes? And we were like, wait, you want to hear those? You know what I mean? And it was like, oh, okay, I guess we got to start playing some of our music. And, you know, and it's like these little baby steps that happen that kind of change dramatic things and how you think about, you know, your success and progress and future. That's so cool. And there's so much that resonates with this story between David and myself. Like, just, I am. Alex, David is Drew. I mean, like, it's just, we got this ying and yang order and chaos, and it just

Starting point is 00:31:13 like seems to work. I will tell you guys that I was actually super bearish on partnerships prior to this. Yeah. I was kind of my whole thing was like, lone wolf, like, no one's going to be reliable. No one's actually going to be kind of there. No one's going to hustle as hard as I hustle. And then I started working with David. And it was just like, like a little bit at first. I was like, oh hell yeah i want to invest in this guy and when i saw a dude who is like a better than me at a number of different skill sets that i knew we needed it was just like you know game on and i mean i think that's the best thing i mean i read some article a few months ago um i wrote some substack thing that was just about like accountability and how that's like the most important

Starting point is 00:31:54 quality to have in anyone that you work with or hire and it's so true you know like removing that doubt of being able to rely on someone. And like generally like a lot of people aren't reliable and, you know, I don't blame you for like feeling that way, you know, sometimes. But like when you know, when you ask if someone can get something done or not even have to ask, they just know that they're going to take care of those things. It's like a really beautiful thing. I think that's kind of like what you want in a good business is like a business that where everyone is accountable to each other in a healthy way. And it's like you're not like, you don't feel inclined to say every three days like, hey, did you do this? You know,

Starting point is 00:32:31 I mean? Like, hey, how's that going? And you just know that person's going to, is thinking about it and it's going to take care of it in a mirror that, like, you think is, you know, acceptable and great. And I think that's, you know, awesome that you guys found each other. 100%. And, uh, okay, so I want to move to this. So that was like part one of kind of the, the career. And you guys are still obviously doing that hugely successful artist. Album, new album is awesome. We're going to talk a little bit about that. And NFTs, you guys released. But here's what I'm fascinated with. You got this duo that's pumping out incredible music. and then you decide to go down the investing path, and it was Drew's idea?

Starting point is 00:33:06 Drew, tell us about that, man. Why did you think this was a good idea? I think, you know, we've always been entrepreneurial, obviously, the way we approached our music business. You know, we've started a number of other businesses like we have a pretty elaborate real estate business. We have, you know, our TV and film production company. We have ha-ha tequila, which has been really fun recently.

Starting point is 00:33:26 I was promoting that last night, so I'm a little bit hungover. And, you know, we were very entrepreneurial and, like, we became knowledgeable about, like, you know, some of the, you know, inner workings of the way tech businesses were built, you know. We met guys like Brian Chesky and Drew Houston from Dropbox and Justin Kahn and Michael Seibel. And it's kind of that kind of like class of entrepreneurs. We were meeting them through our shows and hanging out with them. And, you know, we would trade stories about, you know, what our DJ life was like and we'd hear about what building a tech company was like. And we realized we had a lot more uncommon with guys like that than we did with most musicians. And so it was kind of a space that we know, you know, entrepreneurally and just, you know,

Starting point is 00:34:07 friendship-wise, we were really just drawn to. You know, we really like these types of people that, you know, had this, you know, super-driven mindset that wanted to, you know, create things that didn't exist and prove everyone wrong. And, you know, so that space just seemed really appealing to us. And, you know, we were doing a lot of angel investing. I'd say our intro into investing started the way probably most celebrities get into invest. I mean, I do that with quotation marks because it's definitely a lot of like CPG companies or brands that want to slap, you know, a notable, you know, famous celebrity on their cap table to, you know, get some kind of press. And, you know, that's kind of where we started.

Starting point is 00:34:44 And then, you know, in meeting those guys, we realize, you know, they were kind of like, why aren't you investing in our companies? And we were like, wait, why don't we have access to that? And they kind of gave us a crash course and what venture capital was. and, you know, kind of how that that world worked. And, you know, we started to be more outbound in our search. We didn't wait for kind of brands or CBG companies to come to us. We went out and sought out our own deals. And it got to the point where, you know, we kind of looked at each other where, you know, we had the concept of just institutionalize a thing and, you know, go out and do it for real.

Starting point is 00:35:16 And we also realize, you know, there's something like when you're personally angel investing, not everyone knows you invest. And people still don't know that we invest. But when you create an official fund and raise up, you know, outside capital and announce that you're open for business, you know, your deal flow completely changes. And to be honest with you, you know, we started Mantis two and a half years ago. And, you know, we kind of started with everything that I just told you about. You know, we've realized that we had, you know, access to a lot of really good companies. But what we've learned since then has been monumental. And we are really in there.

Starting point is 00:35:51 We do this all day, every day. We've met so many amazing people. We've met so many people that have seemed amazing that aren't amazing. We've gotten so much good advice. We've got so much bad advice. It's been a pretty wild ride. And this is something that we want to do for the rest of our lives. Yeah, so let's go into that.

Starting point is 00:36:05 For the YouTube listeners, you can see Alex's hat, Scott Mantis. Through just mentioned the name. And there's no way that Mantis doesn't have your guys's DNA just absolutely baked into that. So could you guys describe the gist, the vibe of the Mantis portfolio? what are the things that you guys like to invest in? And how has it changed the trajectory of your guys' careers? How is it impacted? How is like the bounce back and forth between chain smokers, the performance artists,

Starting point is 00:36:31 and also mantis the portfolio? Like how is this whole dynamic played out? Yeah, I think at its core, you know, the most important thing to us is investing in people. You know, we invest in the C stage and series A stage. And I think when you're investing that early, you know, fundamentally, like you want to invest in amazing people that, you know, in some ways, I don't want to say like resemble our tenacity early on in our career, but have certainly like a vision and a by any means necessary attitude to get things done. And I think that's kind of what's been fun about it is I think we're curious people and the opportunity to speak to like mind and people like that. It's been really exciting and then back them and support them.

Starting point is 00:37:08 You know, we think of ourselves as founders too. So, you know, we like to think we have something to offer to these businesses about, you know, finding product market fit, innovating, building community, creating a narrative around things. And then, of course, like, obviously we're in entertainment, but the hospitality side of what we do is really a huge component of it. And so when it comes to relationships and introductions and helping companies, you know, meet the people that are going to accelerate their growth and business, I think we really are helpful with that. And that's kind of how we position ourselves is like, you know, investing has become so institutionalized. Like, we kind of think of ourselves as a sexy plus one that comes in as like a great partner to any founder. And you'll want to have a beer with us at the end of the day. you know we're going to be like your bloodhounds and we're going to go to any length to make sure that

Starting point is 00:37:51 you guys and girls or whoever have what they need in order to you know hit their objectives and i think for us like when we launched the first fund like anything you kind of don't know i think back to the chain smokers it was like making derivative music of like Calvin harris and zed and you know early on i think for us we were like okay we know consumer and there's obviously a gigantic vertical that you know walks along that path maybe we'll focus on that and blockchain and that's what we put in our deck. And we went out to our investors and it was so funny because they were like, get rid of this blockchain. I don't want to see it. And we were like, all right, blockchain's out of here. And so we went out, raise our fund. And very quickly, we were

Starting point is 00:38:30 kind of, you know, we had the opportunity to speak to some SaaS companies and fintech companies. And we were like, wait, why are we pigeonholing ourselves in the consumer? You know, I think the reason we did that is because it was the only place that we thought we could add value. And the reason that's important is because, you know, like I mentioned earlier, we're super self-aware. And I think when we launched our fund, you know, a lot of people congratulated us. But also I, I could feel the tension in the room where there are a lot of people being like, this is the beginning of the end. Like, good Lord, like, you know what, wait, there's some skepticism about this? What were they? Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, I think people just didn't, you know, it's like anything. It's like, you know, if they,

Starting point is 00:39:06 there's certain, you know, people that become musicians or DJs overnight. And you're just like, come on, man, don't make, you know, this is already like a weird business as is. Like, I don't need you coming here and screwing things up and making a mockery of something that, you know, I take super seriously. And not to mention, you can like, you know, hurt these companies we're invested in. You can, you know, lose money for your LPs. And I think, you know, we were really cognizant of that. And for us, we understood the road ahead that we had to climb and the work that needed to be done. And for us, like, we understood fundamentally the way that we were going to be successful is truly by adding value and that alone. And through that network of fact, founders that we helped, we would begin to see more access, more deal flow. And, you know, and in the early days, we were super lucky and fortunate to speak to a ton of investors, founders, people that we admire, you know, just to get advice, hear about their experiences, what they thought about the space. And the way I liken it is to, like, moving into like a cul-de-sac and, like, go into your neighbors with, like, brownies and being like, I promise you, I'm not going to be like a frat house. You know what I mean? And everyone's like kind of being like, oh,

Starting point is 00:40:05 these guys are thoughtful. You know, like, they might actually take this seriously. Maybe I, maybe I will be open to working with them on opportunities. And, you know, over that first fund, it came more clear to people that just how serious we were taking in and just how much we cared about adding value into the business we invested. And, you know, and it was only through like, you know, certain opportunities like getting into a fintech, certain fintech deals that became in clear to you're like, wait, I could actually move the needle for a company in any space, really. Just, you know, we just have to identify what those things are. And so we kind of brought in the scope of what Mantis was going to be invest in. And actually conversely, we, at the same time, we were like, I don't want to do consumer

Starting point is 00:40:41 at all, really, actually. You know, and I think that was kind of in order to protect the chain smoker brand, which is like generally consumer-related businesses always want the same thing from us, social too. And like, so if we make bets in that space, we have to really like be, you know, certain that this is the company we want to back from, you know, now to finish. And that was really important to us. So, you know, it's funny. Like, we didn't want to become the QVC of venture and kind of like hurt our music brand. And so by kind of investing in spaces that really maybe the chain smokers people thought would have no business involved in like ML and AI and, you know, life sciences and things like that, I think that's where we really began to really take off and see the path

Starting point is 00:41:22 of what Mantis would become. Mantis is such an interesting portfolio. I just love it. And I guess the common denominators is you guys here. I want to ask this question because, you know, people listening, they're probably not creators, right? But you guys make this parallel. between releasing a hit song and like investing in a hit business. It's kind of like a numbers game. There's an element where you like don't know which investment is actually going to pay off. But you guys are going to be able to make the parallels better than I can. I don't have a hit song yet.

Starting point is 00:41:52 Bankless has no hit songs. So like how is investing similar to like finding product market fit for a specific song or like genre? I think the deeper we get into it. It's product market fit. Yes, that's one part of it. but it's really like investing in people and identifying people that are willing to, is this a great team? Like, do you have the mentality to persevere through stuff that is inevitably going to go wrong?

Starting point is 00:42:17 You know, like, what are your other interests? What are your outside interests? Like, what are you going to get distracted with? Are you going to, you know, raise a big round and become, you know, not to name names, but one of those founders that kind of gets lost in the sauce of being a celebrity founder, which is a new recent concept that we're all like kind of dealing with? And I mean, that doesn't happen too often, but, you know, like, you know, do you have the stamina? Do you have the willpower to stay focused and not let, especially in the environment.

Starting point is 00:42:45 I mean, we're our first fund in 2020. And, you know, fast forward to today. We've like, I feel like we've lived through like three, like, you know, a decade of what most funds experience in terms of market cycles. And yeah, you see like, you know, a lot of, you know, we joined at a time where a lot of, you know, founders were letting valuations go to their head. and not building lean, strong companies. And we see the same thing in the music business, kids that have one hit song. And they move to L.A. and they're out every night. And they think shit is sweet.

Starting point is 00:43:15 And it's going to last forever. And then you never hear from them again. So you have, you know, this is like an all day, you know, you got to find someone with a chip on their shoulder as big as ours that, you know, they have no other option. It's live or die making their business work. And so I feel like that, I mean, I know I just went into. of people for a long time, but that's really a huge part of it. I mean, you can analyze Tam and you can analyze if you think it's a good vertical or if it's a good product or conceptually it's great, but people, I think is the most important thing that, you know, we draw parallels

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Starting point is 00:46:17 If you want to stake your ETH, Soul, or Matic, and get liquidity on your stake, go to Lido-F-I to get started. That's L-I-D-O-F-I to get started. Alex, you alluded to it, And I want to pick your brain a little bit more about that. Was there like a stigma that the chain smokers had as venture capitalists, as in what are these EDM DJs doing in the world of venture capital?

Starting point is 00:46:40 They think they're hot shot investors. Was that a stigma that you guys had to overcome? I don't know if anything we thought we were hot shot investors. I think people just thought we'd be idiots or something. And I don't think like, you know, if you don't know us, like I don't blame anyone necessarily. Like if you watch, you know, if you just follow us on Instagram, like we're goofy guys. Like we don't take ourselves too seriously. We have a lot of fun.

Starting point is 00:46:59 You know, our lives revolve around basically showing people, hopefully giving people the best nights and times of their lives. But, you know, what you don't see behind the scenes is all the relationships that we've built, the people we've taken care of, the team that we manage. I mean, chain smokers alone is like 25 or 30 people, you know, is a business. And, you know, it's always, you know, do you talk to these founders and you're just like, wait, we make way more revenue than you, you know, you do. and you're, you know, the SaaS multiples and everything, it's wild. But I think for us, like, just being self-aware of that, you know, and understanding that, like, not everyone's going to get what we're trying to do at first. And, you know, you just have to keep your head down and work and take things really seriously.

Starting point is 00:47:40 And I think, you know, for us, we are very cognizant of what we don't know. And we have no problem leaning into people that we admire and respect that have much more experience and asking for help and advice and partnerships. and I think, you know, if you go in kind of hopefully with like that humble, modest attitude, like people are more willing to help you work with you. And I think that, you know, was a really funny, exciting experience. And I think, you know, a lot of the conversations that people have when we invest are like, okay, I'll let them invest.

Starting point is 00:48:09 I like the conversation. They sold me on what they're going to help me with. And then the next, you know, conversation is like, holy shit. They're fucking great. You know what I mean? Like they really surprised me. And that's kind of like, you know, and then that founders hopefully speaks to the next founder. we're trying to invest in.

Starting point is 00:48:23 And they're like, you know, I know exactly what you're thinking right now. And I'm telling you you're going to be surprised. And I think I'm comfortable with that. And you mentioned like very early on like the underdog mentality. And I think that's something that we've always carried with ourselves and kind of push, you know, allows us to push ourselves forward, which is like we don't take really anything for granted or any moment or opportunity. And, you know, I always feel like we have something to prove no matter how great things

Starting point is 00:48:47 have looked externally. And, you know, and I think that's made this whole. It's really fun to invest in the next, constantly be investing in like a fountain of youth, like the next generation of amazing thinkers and disruptors doing crazy things. You know, as we get, you know, older, then we feel close to what's really happening in the world and where change is happening. And I think just having, you know, the Avengers on your cap table is becoming more important. Like, instead of having the same old dudes, you know what I mean, that of the same capital and,

Starting point is 00:49:17 you know, preach the same things, it's like, hey, how about like just throwing in a little complimentary chain smoker fund and you know they have a little bit different perspective and experience and approach that really might supercharge things and I think different you know having that differentiation these days is counting for more and more as things become more you know homogenous yeah can I be honest with you guys for just a minute is like you're actually blown me away in this conversation like I was expecting a really good conversation with the chain smokers but I was not expecting like investor savvy business savvy founder savvy to be coming through like it's It's really cool.

Starting point is 00:49:52 I'm reading my buzzwords right now off the street. No, but it's true. I mean, I'm not even going to lie to you. Like, I remember doing our first YC pitch for like, you know, week. And I didn't like know what Tam was. Like I kept mentioning Tan in these pitches. And I was like, can someone just explain to me what, you know, and like on tons of calls for months and months until to this day?

Starting point is 00:50:13 You know, I'm like Googling things and trying to understand, you know, certain, you know, phrases and, you know. In your defense, there are a ton of acronyms. Yeah, there's so many accurate. Totally. And just, yeah, welcome to crypto, too. What the hell? We have so many acrony. Oh, my God.

Starting point is 00:50:27 I mean, we're just going to crypto's like French. Yeah. Well, something I've definitely learned is that a decent amount of investing is just kind of a vibe more than it is the numbers as well, especially in the early stage as well. And you guys said, Manzi started in 2020. And Ryan and I really got started doing our angel investing about a year later sometime in 2021. So we're about like a year behind you guys.

Starting point is 00:50:47 We don't have a fund or anything. But definitely into the idea of being. an activist investor, right? Because when I invest in something, it's because I want to see that thing come out into the world. I think if that product were to exist, it would make the world a better place. And so I automatically feel responsible for helping that version of the future come out, because I literally think it's a better future of the world. So when you guys take an activist investor approach, like, what are the things that you are doing to actually help guide the future that you guys want to see for the world? Like, what does it mean to be an activist investor? What are the

Starting point is 00:51:19 things you guys are doing for the opportunities that you invest in. I'm happy to go. I mean, I think it depends on the types of business. I mean, there's some that are like, you know, not so exciting. They're more like SaaS businesses that, you know, externally or internally help other companies achieve goals easier, you know, streamlining things and bringing archaic systems forward into the future. But then they're like things like, you know, we just invested in this company, Earth, which this guy created as a proprietary, I guess, they're like capsules, basically like they decompose, it sounds really dark, but they decomposed like, you know, someone who's passed away until like a nutrient rich soil, basically. So instead of like cremation

Starting point is 00:51:58 as an option, now you're getting back this like nutrient rich soil of someone you love that you can go, you know, plant flowers from or, you know, lay, you know, somewhere. And it just, it feels better, it sounds better. It's better for the planet in terms of carbon emissions from, you know, gases released from cremating someone. And, you know, and it's just like simple things like that. You're like, what an interesting concept. You know what I mean? Instead of like burning the person you love into ashes. You're like, you know, they're like more, it's more natural process and better for the environment. And ultimately, like, it has a 100% tamp. Yeah. And, you know, and there's, you know, there are opportunities like that. And then there's things like, you know, Web3 opportunities

Starting point is 00:52:35 about creating more ownership for, you know, the creators that exist out there and more opportunity to take ownership up the things you create. I mean, that's something we face in our, you know, own music business, which is like, you know, we're like the ones slaving away. And we're like the ones slaving away. generating these products and pieces of music that, you know, are loved by everybody, but we're like the smallest owner and all of these things that we create. Like what, there's something broken with that, you know? And I think when it comes to Web 3, we're a little bit more interested in infrastructure at this point just because of how it really it is.

Starting point is 00:53:05 And I think that's the place you should be investing in. But like thinking towards the future of the opportunity of it, those things are really exciting us. I mean, the way we got in the blockchain was we helped found this company, Yellowheart, which is like a blockchain ticketing platform. And that's a whole story into itself. conceptually, it was like, what a great technology. Like, we can, like, solve the ticket scalping problem.

Starting point is 00:53:25 We can form a deeper relationship with our fans and create a better sense of community. You know, we can contact people, you know, like, go play shows in cities. And the next day, they're like, when are you coming to my city? And we're like, what the, what the hell? You know what I mean? Like, we don't own this information to reach out to those people that bought tickets in the past. So it's like, you know, I think there's all sorts of applications of things that, you know, get us really excited.

Starting point is 00:53:47 And they're all different. You know, we're fairly opportunistic, agnostic investors. And it's kind of like, you know, their calls you get on and you're just like, you know, this is going to be stupid. And then you leave feeling like, holy shit. You know what I mean? Like this guy, like, you know, I don't know. We invested in this company radiant nuclear, not out of Mantis, but just Drew and I.

Starting point is 00:54:05 And, you know, he's trying to create nuclear fire basically in like container size reactors that like then can power, you know, small city, remote cities or military facilities or, you know, work set of hospitals in areas that, you know, otherwise have lost electricity. And you're just like, I don't know what the likelihood of this. You know what I mean? People have been talking about nuclear fire infusion for a long time. But like the opportunity to invest in this and help someone is it's pretty cool and exciting. Guys, that's a good segue to like Web 3 and Crypto and what you guys think about that. But like, you know, it was Drew's idea to start the fund, right? Whose idea was it to buy the board eight? You guys did that in, what was it like September of last year?

Starting point is 00:54:45 You bought a board ape, right? Yeah, we got two, I think, right? You got two? Okay. Yeah, we bought it with like our team, actually. It's like our manager, our agent, our business manager, me, Drew. So why did you guys do this? And like, what was the reaction?

Starting point is 00:54:57 I think you changed like the chain smoker's Twitter handle at least. Yeah, it was actually like, I've never, I don't think we've ever posted anything that's gotten quite as big a reaction. Really? Which was like, okay, this is crazy. And I think that's really cool. I think what Yuga Labs has done so well is create this sense of community. And, you know, by giving away the IP, I thought that was such a power move on their part. to like give the ownership to the people that bought those things and then they could go off and

Starting point is 00:55:19 create their own communities around those pieces of items and you know who knows ultimately what this all becomes i mean i think we're big fans of theirs and everything they've done so far but you know for us it's like that's what's fun is like experimenting and trying different things out and that was one of those you know i'm i studied art history and like wow like i don't necessarily know if i can compare like our ape to like a lichtenstein or uh you know bang go or something like you know it's cool. And, you know, people identify their personalities with these things. And while, you know, they're incredibly expensive, I don't know what the floor is right now, what they were when we got in, you know, it was a fun kind of social experiment. And I think that's what you're seeing a lot of

Starting point is 00:55:59 in crypto is, you know, these different kind of case studies and experiments that people are taking to, you know, try out the possibilities of what Web3 has to offer. And I know, I know, like, there's all sorts of rabbit holes. People lately have gone down on podcasts that have gotten burned for her. So I'm not going to make the same mistake. but you guys are up i saw i think you bought it at like 55 eighth or something at least one of the apes and we're at 86th even though he's down you know you're oh good you're still good if that's hard to do in this market in this economy okay to be up i was talking to someone i won't say yesterday and they were thinking about investing with this person i made an intro to and they were like thinking

Starting point is 00:56:34 about giving all my bitcoin to them i was like how much bitcoin you have they're like 500 bitcoin and i was like oh you're getting murdered right now aren't you you you know what i was like i don't you can buy in early. And he was like, yeah, this sucks. But the regular initiation process of this industry. For sure. I mean, you know, I think we've always thought of ourselves as long-term investors and pretty much anything you do. Like, that's what the venture is. You know, you're betting in a better future in many years to come. And, you know, we've been investing for six years now. And I don't think anything we've invested in has, you know, we've had some acquisitions and stuff like that. But, you know, certainly not any jackball yet. It takes time. You know, you've got to be patient.

Starting point is 00:57:13 And what goes up goes down and what goes down goes up. And, you know, I think right now everyone's obviously having a really hard time including ourselves. But, you know, I think that this is just one of those cycles. You kind of just got to keep your head down and refocus and, you know, eventually, hopefully brighter days ahead. So when did you guys get into Web 3? You guys were already investors.

Starting point is 00:57:35 And Web 3 has a ton of surface area for investment. And so I'm wondering about when was the aha moment for like, oh, Web 3, have some opportunity here. But also at the same time, I want to hear your guys as like rough, dry, uncut takes about Web 3. Like when you look at Web 3, do you see potential or do you see skepticism? Like, what parts about Web 3 do you really like and what parts really, really bug you? And overall, what was like the initiation process for becoming Web 3 investors. Tell us what you really think about NFTs, guys. Yeah. Do you guys hate our industry? No, and not at all. We love your industry. And I think for our fund, we've tried to focus on

Starting point is 00:58:11 infrastructure and not, you know, invest in the things that are going to power this entire ecosystem as, you know, over a lot of like flashy things I feel like the concepts, which that's one of the things that, like, I got really disillusioned with in terms of taking a ton of, you know, meetings for investment for Mantis in the spaces. There are a lot of things that were, you know, the cart before the horse and things that, yes, conceptually like make sense to build at some point. But if you look at the population that's actively trading in this environment or it is active in this environment, forget about trading, it's just not there yet. And if you're too early, you're wrong. So there's a lot of things that just felt very premature. And, you know, I hope a lot

Starting point is 00:58:55 of these things exist at some point, but there's so much infrastructure. There's so much onboarding, getting people into the space that needs to happen before a lot of these companies can survive. And right now, I mean, it feels like we're going towards a crypto winter. I don't know if it will be that drastic, but those are the first things to go. So, you know, we have a fiduciary responsibility to, first of all, be optimistic, but really be realistic about where things are at and try to invest in the nuts and bolts of this industry. As a creator, I'm really excited to see a new technology that's based around community. And I think, you know, every business, every Web 2 business, every, I mean, really everything is kind of, the world's in a weird place right now. And I think, you know,

Starting point is 00:59:38 just culturally. You know, I think, I mean, I guess let me just draw parallel to music. Like, no one knows what the fuck is going on in music right now. No one knows how to break a song. Like, you know, everyone points to TikTok, but like you can't make a song go viral on TikTok. It's great when it happens. And the artists that I really look up to right now that are winning the most are the ones that are focusing on kind of slowly. they're not focused on having big hit songs. They're not focused on just like the flex of it all, you know, which, you know, everyone wants, but the ones that are really winning that are like just killing it in ticket sales, ticket sales is where you really see how much people love an artist, you know?

Starting point is 01:00:23 Do they just love you on social media? Do they just like this in your songs? Or will they literally pay $100 to come see you? That's the real test. And the people that are winning in that space are the ones that have focused on community, the ones that have slowly built a fan base that's very, unique to them. They have a sound that no one else can do as well as them. They're not chasing trends. And, you know, they've built something that's really stable around them. And these are some

Starting point is 01:00:49 of these artists you guys are probably heard of. You know, some of them, most people have, but most people have not. And I think what Web3 empowers is it's a whole toolbox that empowers people, like artists like that to bolden their community. And that's what's like the most exciting thing for me. And I know that's kind of vague, but that's my roundabout way of getting to why I love it. And just to answer a couple of those other things you touched on, like Yellowheart, the blockchain ticket platform I mentioned was kind of our first foray into blockchain technology in the crypto world. I think, you know, for us, the idea of like being able to solve ticket scalping through NFT blockchain technology was really exciting. And we were kind of five years ahead.

Starting point is 01:01:30 This was like probably five or six years ago at this point. And it was, you know, we ran into all sorts of different roadblocks that we didn't encounter. Like, first of all, not, there was no mainstream adoption yet into this idea. But it was really funny when I think it was like mid-2020, like in the summer when like Web 3 kind of really began to take off. I remember our investors calling and being like, hey, I remember we told you to take blockchain out of your deck, but you guys are still investing in Web 3, right? And we were like, yes, don't worry.

Starting point is 01:01:58 And, you know, and I think to Drew's point, like from a practicality standpoint, like there's so many exciting things, you know, we obviously did that royal drop. Like the connection you can create, like Drew said, to embolden your community to, you know, have this kind of online ledger in different capacities to tokenize things and reward people for, you know, being fans. I think back to like the early days maybe of our career when we bought our first microphone. And Drew and I were like, I remember like pulling out of our like $6,000 shared account like $2,500 to buy mic it like Sam. Was it Sam Ash probably? And we're just like, oh, God. We just aged ourselves.

Starting point is 01:02:35 Yeah, yeah. And I was like, I was like, Drew, you better, we better fucking sing. You know what I mean? Like, remind this thing. Like, you know. I think the first song we made with that mic was roses. Or selfie, I think. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:02:49 Unfortunately. But, but like, you didn't have to tell them that. But I think what was funny is like, I think back to like an artist that could in that, you know, in the same scenario, but to move forward in time, they could turn to their community and say, hey guys, I really want to buy this keyboard, but I can't afford it. You know, everyone who chips together, I'm going to give you guys a token that forever will show that you guys were early supporters and it will give you ownership in all the songs that I create off of this microphone or something like that.

Starting point is 01:03:19 Or, you know, you guys get lifetime access to shows. And I think that's a really cool proposition. There's no ability to do that right now. I think, you know, by the way, is so fucking dope. I want to become a mission. I need, you know, $800. of buy this microphone to make this thing and have people like buy a token off of that and then like think about where that could go that's so fucking dope and i think like you know not to go into the dark

Starting point is 01:03:43 side of like kind of what kind of feels like on some ways like crypto winner maybe the dot com bubble bursting in you know the 2000 or whatever year was you know and i think these things are they're healthy cycles to have happen you know and i think what happened you know unfortunately obviously a lot of people are going to struggle and things are going to go away but i think the resilient important pieces are going to be built and people are going to buckle down. And the sentiment I'm hearing in a lot of the groups that I'm in that people that are very whole about the space are like, we wish this is never happening, but the sentiment is very different from like 2018 and earlier winters where people feel like there's more of a consolidated positive effort now of things that are going to happen

Starting point is 01:04:22 in the future. Whereas before it felt like maybe this was the end forever, people are like, this is just a sad bump in the road, but we're going to consolidate and keep building. And there's going to be more opportunity in the future. And I think, you know, when it comes to social, space. There's going to be really interesting opportunities. But, you know, at its core, we're going to get rid of the kind of superfluous cell phone.com, you know, dog.com, like those types of businesses that, you know, just weren't really necessary. But then out of that come, you know, the Amazon's and the Googles and these amazing businesses that create all sorts of different opportunities. So we're very excited. Yeah, I absolutely could not agree more. I remember coming out of 2018, the 2018 Cryptomania,

Starting point is 01:04:56 wondering what the hell that whole thing was and why anyone would stick around in this industry. And no one feels that way in 2021 or 2022. There's so many more reasons to stick around. And I think crypto is going to retain a lot more of the people that came in in the last few years. And it's because of the real utility that we have in this industry now. While a lot of people who look at this industry from the surface, they probably don't see it. But if you pull back under the hood and you find out what people like yourselves are doing at a very fundamental level, then you can realize that there's actually real utility here.

Starting point is 01:05:28 And one of the things that you guys did was your drop with the royal platform. We've had Justin Blow on the podcast a number of times before, and I'm just super interested in the way that artists can have a reverberating conversation with their fans through the utility of the tokens that they issue. So I'm wondering if you guys can walk our listeners through your guys' Mint with Royal, your mint and your drop with Royal, how it created a relationship with your fans that you might have not had before. And overall, just the thought and ethos behind this whole engagement that you guys did with Royal.

Starting point is 01:05:59 Totally. I mean, I think just, you know, before we can. it's a royal i mean kind of talking about the enthusiasm that is still in the web three space even in a time like this yes a lot of value has disappeared or monetary value has disappeared but like what what we really saw happen over the past two years is community all these communities people that felt like they belonged to something that they believed in they were connected other people that were like minded with but you know you know you know in a world that they never felt like you know in the real world they really felt like they never fit in they have this thing that they're really passionate about

Starting point is 01:06:31 And that's where a lot of great things are created. So, you know, Maca Lee, that's what I'm most excited about, you know, just looking at the space in general. What we wanted to do with our drop with Royal and, you know, to give a little bit of context, I mean, Justin is a pioneer and leader in the space from the music side. You know, he made obviously what everyone, he, you know, he dropped one of his old albums and he tokenized one of his old albums and he made a ton of money on it. You know, it's probably most people listening to his podcast now. And the response from the music industry was they didn't understand that Justin was such a part of this community. And he had built that around himself before this album drop happened. And that was that was what was supporting it.

Starting point is 01:07:15 What people saw was, oh, cool, people will buy, my fans will buy digital goods. Cool. I can, I can, you know, and this is a little bit hardcore, but rinse my fans for that. I can sell digital essentially merch. I can tokenize things and make money, which is in my. opinion, the complete wrong interpretation of the space and how to utilize it. And, you know, a lot of people from the music side made really meaningful NFT projects. And that's great. And they had a fan base that they really connected with that really wanted those things. But there are a lot of

Starting point is 01:07:46 people that just like, okay, cool, we're selling this now. What do I need? I need to find an artist and create something that's like, you know, digital but tangible and people will buy and I'll make money. Great. You know, that was a flash in the pan thing. That was a bubble that popped really quickly. You know, we wanted to do with our drop with Justin and we had a lot of conversations about, you know, where the space is going and, you know, back to community. It's like, what can we do? What can we agree? This is a whole new tool that we can use to create the most in-depth fan club that's ever existed. We can give them a piece of ownership in our songs. We can give them perks. We have information on where our most hardcore fans are. You know, we have a,

Starting point is 01:08:24 you know, Discord has become an incredible utility in the space. Like, you know, really connecting with the people that care the most about you and getting feedback from that community, you know, bringing them into the process. And it's been like relatively effortless, you know, like, you know, you don't want to go on Instagram and post about the minutia of what it takes to make a song. But there are, you know, you know, I probably think we have like, you know, 10,000 people in our discord now, which is, you know, that was 500 people a few months ago. And they're our most hardcore fans and we get to bring them in the, like, you know, the creative process. And, you know, we have the people that, these are the people that hold this NFT that feel like they're part of our story. And we want them to be.

Starting point is 01:09:06 And, you know, I think there's so much experimentation that's happening right now in this space. And maybe this is just one iteration of it, but we have a deeper connection with our fans than we've ever had before because of this drop. And that's really cool. I don't know where the space is going or what it's going to become, but just trying things like that has been really, you know, empowering for us. I really love what you guys are doing here. And there's a Naval quote we often talk about on bank lists. There's like play long-term games with long-term people. And like as a creator, playing a long-term game with your community, not trying to rinse

Starting point is 01:09:40 them, not trying to rip them off, but like add value to their lives, whether it's through music and the art you create or like financial upside, that has got to be part of your relationship with the community. And that's a long-term game that I'm seeing in your drop, actually. So I'm wondering about some of the mechanics here for people who haven't seen. it. But like, so you have a, I think this is targeted towards some of your super fans. Yeah. As you were saying, Drew, right? So like a certain class of fan was eligible for this. And then you have like a percentage of your album, royalty, actually going to fans. So it's not just

Starting point is 01:10:13 backed by like promise of future stuff. Tell us about this. I should have clarified. We also gave these NFTs away for free. Right. We had, yeah, we had data on, you know, who are top, you know, DSP listeners where we have obviously the people from Discord and we made sure that those were the people that got this. It wasn't, we didn't sell these. There's no, you know, if they're trading. Why was that important to you? Why did you do that? Because it's fully based around community. Like I'm trying to like give people that care about us the most, a piece of what we're doing. And I want to have a conversation with them and I don't want. And as they've traded in a secondary market, if there's any like, I think 10% of it goes to to us, but we gave that entire 10% to the writers.

Starting point is 01:10:54 that helped us on this album. So, you know, Emily Warren, you know, Emily Warren, you're Patrick, we'd then, you know, some of our really close friends that were an inherent part of this project because that's also another part that hasn't been defined about the space. It's like, okay, an artist is going to sell an NFT based around their album. What about the people that helped you make that album?

Starting point is 01:11:11 Yeah. You know, and, you know, some people have, you know, they're making money off a project and, you know, these, you know, amazingly talented people that aren't being compensated for it. It's just wrong. And, you know, we just wanted to do something that we felt like was we kind of wanted to be a leader ethically and emboldened our community and that's kind of where we are sorry Alex I know you wanted to say something I mean you pretty said it all but like what's

Starting point is 01:11:35 interesting to be there and like obviously I think music publishing rights is something that blockchain could be a really interesting component in peace of in the future but I think like when I think about web three like zooming out like I don't know if the world becomes just web three like I think it's really a combination of both of those things. Like I think applying some of this practical, incredible new innovation technology to spaces that use it like financial institutions that want to wire money or keep ledgers and track of things, you know, to music rights and distributing royalties to artists efficiently and effectively, you know, in real time. But I don't know, you know, do we just fully get rid of publishing play? You know, how is this? Like, do you as an artist

Starting point is 01:12:16 want to pitch your songs to TV shows? Like, no. And I think like that's the world. I think we're heading towards is this kind of hopefully mixed, you know, like a mixed reality, basically of Web 3 and Web 2 where you're applying this amazing technology to the spaces that really need it and can benefit from it in different ways, whether it's social, whether it's finance, whether it's music. And, you know, I think that's where, you know, you're going to see really exciting opportunities happen. And one thing I do want to say, though, is like, you know, I am a believer that like, this space does need some regulation ultimately. And it's not because I'm like, it's crazy and there's so many bad actors in it, although there are a lot of bad actors in it,

Starting point is 01:12:50 which has probably led to some of the negative feedback on it. But because, like, you need to define the rules of a game on some levels in order to, like, create the game effectively. Like, if you just, like, were playing basketball, you know, 75 years ago, and you could just pick the ball up and run with it. Like, you know, that's a very different game. You know what I mean? And by defining the rules, like, it became, you know, a really fun game that everyone knew

Starting point is 01:13:13 understood how to play. And there were people that were better at it and people that were worse at it, you know. But the game of basketball has evolved. so much since, you know, it's inception 70 years ago, you know, with the three-pointer and dunks and the athletic wear, you know, that helps you perform better and even, you know, the athletes and how they train. So I think like, in general, like, that's kind of how I hope, you know, as the Web3 evolves, there's certain frameworks put in place that like can kind of define it a little bit more clearly so we don't end up in some of these, you know,

Starting point is 01:13:41 really cluster fuck situations that, you know, we're reading about every day on Twitter. Yeah, especially as prices go down by like 90%, all. the cluster fucks make their way to the top of crypto Twitter and everyone starts to realize that a lot of people were swimming without swim trunks on. Yeah. Plenty of stories like this lately. But it's, I mean, you guys are long-term people. So you're here for the long term. And I'm wondering, does the story of the chain smokers in Web 3, where does that go? You guys have this NFT that resembles a share of your guys' streaming fees for the most recent album. Do you guys have any plans behind the scenes? Like, where's the trajectory of the chain smokers in Web 3 going from here? I don't know. I mean,

Starting point is 01:14:17 obviously, we're putting a lot of emphasis on the total. and I don't know what other artists that have done royal drops or whatever have done for their fans. Part of me believes that they have done nothing and it should. But, you know, we're pretty actively every week trying to do something, whether it's, you know, a Discord session where we play new music or air dropping unreleased songs or, you know, we have all sorts of ideas and things that we want to keep pushing. You know, ultimately we're kind of at the mercy of where the technology heads and goes. But like, you know, who knows?

Starting point is 01:14:50 Like, you know, maybe one day we're unsigned and we could use some of these different serve, you know, whether it's catalog or whatever, to try out some different features and functions. I think like blockchain ticketing technology again is just going to be such an important powerful space. There's kind of a monopoly over it with LabNation and AG. So it's like we're kind of all at the mercy of them deciding when this is the right time to use some of this.

Starting point is 01:15:12 But, you know, I think you're going to see that stuff happening. And, you know, I don't know what the BitCloud's doing right now. I think they're iterating on a new D-So version of it. But, you know, the idea of, like, backing an artist early and then participating in their success over years. It's such a cool idea. Like, I can think of a hundred artists that I was like, I remember discovering Duoliva when she was like, you know, like, she was just like figuring out what she was going to become. She's the biggest artist in the world now. Like, if I could have put a couple of dollars behind early Dio, Dula Lipa, I wouldn't have to be doing shit right now.

Starting point is 01:15:44 Right. Right. You know, and, and, uh, and I love. Oh, don't lie, Alex. You'd still be making it. music. I mean, at our core, we're always going to be workers. I mean, I think there's no, there's no number. I posted something the other day. I went and golfed at Chelsea Pierce, just was hitting balls. And like, golf is so fun. Like, I know how great golf is going to be. I refuse to

Starting point is 01:16:03 play it because I know how good golf is going to be. And so I, like, set a number in my head of, like, personal net worth where if I reach that, I will begin to play golf. Until then, no golf. You know, but I think it's exciting and we'll see what happens. And hopefully from the fun side, we'll keep investing in the right people that we believe are going to, you know, push the space forward and do innovative things. And, you know, we're lucky, we were lucky enough to invest in Alchemy as one of our first Web3 investments. And like they really, Nikiel and Joe really taught us a lot about the things that we should be thinking about when it comes to the space. And, you know, you need to build a foundation before you can build a house. And I think, you know,

Starting point is 01:16:40 right now that's kind of what's happening. So we're always really interested in layer ones and, you know, those areas. And it's going to be exciting to see, you know, what transpires. And I hope the only part that I think, and I, you know, that it's kind of unfortunate is this like, there feels like there's like there's just like Republican versus Democrat battle in Web 3 versus Web 2 people. And, you know, and I don't know why everyone is so angry on both sides of the fence about each other. And I understand because Web 3 people, you know, get annoyed. One of two people, you know, say that this is a stupid technology and there's no use for Bitcoin and Ethereum. And, you know, and they're just like, it's almost like if you have nothing nice to say, like just don't say it at all. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:17:19 Um, and I just don't have to buy it. Yeah. You don't have to buy the JPEG or whatever. Exactly. But also like to their point, like, I think, you know, people feel a sense of responsibility to be like, hey, don't buy that celebrity shit coin. Like, you're going to lose money. And I think they're bad actors out there and people try to shine light on that. But maybe sometimes they get too much attention. You know, obviously crashing up Luna. It doesn't do any favors for the space. But these are things that have happened in Web 2 as well. You know, and there's like every kind of genesis and technology has moments and bad actors and things that, you know, are terrible. But it's all part of the process of evolving. And, you know, I just hope that, you know, it's just

Starting point is 01:17:55 funny. It's like, you know, when you go on Twitter and you're just like, you know, what's going to get with people riled up, you know what on both sides of the fence. Yeah, there's even, you know, the Bitcoin maximalists who've skipped all the way to like web 5.0 rather than 3.0. You know, it's like just, it's crazy, man. Yeah. Yeah. So, guys, like, this has actually been one of my. favorite podcast that we've recorded it and I was not expecting this going in what was your favorite what was your favorite oh josh rosenthal crypto what was yes david is 100% are we are both of our favorites are josh rosenthal's the crypto renaissance have you guys listened to that one no i got to

Starting point is 01:18:26 listen to that yeah Alex if you're into art history man this is all history this guy's a phdd in history he goes through it yeah he makes a very concrete argument that the same technologies that triggered their actual renaissance of the 1400s are the same technologies that are triggering what is a future Renaissance, which is the internet is like the original printing press. And then blockchain technology. It's a double-entry bookkeeping. That's an hour and a half on podcast. There's a lot more to it than that.

Starting point is 01:18:51 We also talk about memes. Like memes go back. Our ancient history. Yeah, there's so much there. I mean, yeah, I mean, memes are very interesting in terms of like how they've shifted culture. And actually, like, I've always thought about that. Like, if we add another partner, I'd love them to have, like, a history background. I'm like a firm believer in that these things repeat themselves.

Starting point is 01:19:08 You just kind of have to identify those patterns. obviously Ray Dalio is like a big believer in that. And it's true. You know what I mean? So I think it's like you can kind of find the answers in the past about what's going to happen in the future. So cool, man. I was not expecting to nerd out with you guys so hard, but that's what we're doing.

Starting point is 01:19:26 So this has been so much fun. I guess last question for you guys, just because I'm super curious. I know your main holdings, like a lot of your main investments are kind of in the fund structure. Of course, you've got a lot of different crypto infrastructure companies. Do you guys hold any like crypto assets? personally or like outside of this? Are you like bullish on anything? Like, Heath or Bitcoin or even like NFTs? I mean, I hold Ethan Bitcoin, obviously. And I'm

Starting point is 01:19:49 long on both of those. And everything's on sale right now. Yeah. But yeah, yeah. I mean, in Solana Avalanche and, you know, from an NFT perspective, like, I like, I just hold and collect. Like I never like bought and just sold. Like, I mean, I have a Clonex. I have some doodles. I have some invisible friends. I have some, you know, we have some apes, some art blocks. I do think it's cool. Like, you know, like I think back, like, I've studied so many textbooks over the course of my life that like cataloged different areas in history that, you know, cover, you know, contemporary art, modern art, to Renaissance, art, to whatever. And like, there's going to be a section about NFTs. And that's a really cool idea that in like a hundred years, you know, people are going to have

Starting point is 01:20:33 to study what are, what were these first, you know, you know, primitive NFTs of the world. Yeah, the world. And like, you know, hopefully my kids will benefit greatly from me holding on to these things and not selling them. You know, the way of the art world. But I think those, you know, those things are really interesting. And I think, again, it's like I've never been a day trader. You know, it's never been a part of who I am.

Starting point is 01:20:55 So I can't speak to those people that are so brilliant that they can study those types of trends on that timeline. But, you know, for me, it's like, I think we all see the long-term value of these things. And, you know, again, it's like. Like, you just got to look at the general stock market chart since the 1920s. And it's like technology is compounding, wealth is compounding and innovation. And it's, you know, everything has these moments. You know, you kind of have to get knocked down to get back up.

Starting point is 01:21:22 We've seen it in our own career countless times. And, you know, we'll see what happens next. Certainly. And I do have to just thank you guys first for, of course, coming on the bankless podcast. But also the way that this industry progresses is that people that play long-term games come into this industry and then they stick around and start using the tools that this industry has to offer for the betterment of themselves, their fans, and the industry as a whole. And so it takes more people like you, Drew, Alex, the chain smokers to come in and really leverage the good side of this industry

Starting point is 01:21:54 to show people that it's worth sticking around during the bear markets, even though the bear markets are just rough times to be in. So thank you for seeing the same things that Ryan and I see in this space in the future that we share as well. So I appreciate that. I appreciate it. You guys are awesome. This was a real pleasure. And, you know, we don't do written press anymore because they just fuck our words up. And we look and sound like it in. So anytime we get to do like a podcast and be ourselves, like, two great hosts like yourselves. It's awesome. And then the other things I have to give you guys is I saw you guys at the blended festival in San Diego last year. Oh, yeah. And it very much felt like the official end of COVID for me. Because it's like, okay. Like, yeah, like we're doing music festivals now. Oh, sweet. The chain smokers are coming to a place that's like literally five minutes away from where I live. And that's like, That was a great concert. So thank you for coming to San Diego while I was down there. You guys got backstage passes any shows you want in the future. Oh, amazing.

Starting point is 01:22:43 Amazing. Well, thanks, guys. Cheers. Bankless listeners, has been an awesome episode. We got a few action items for you. One, go check out Mantis VC and what they're up to. We'll include a link to the show notes. Also, listen to the new Chase Smoker album.

Starting point is 01:22:54 So far so good. It is phenomenal. You can also check out the NFT experiment. The chain smokers are doing will include links to Royal and OpenC. As always, guys, risks and disclaimers, none of this has been financial advice. even know if it's music advice. I don't know what this is, but you could definitely lose what you put in, but we are headed west. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone, but we're glad you're with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot.

Bankless - 123 - Investing in the Chainsmokers | Drew Taggart & Alex Pall

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