Bankless - Alpha Leak | The Bull Case for TreasureDAO

Episode Date: April 14, 2022

What is TreasureDAO? Ever heard of that small gaming company, Nintendo? They're trying to build the decentralized version of it. How? David brings on two of their co-founders to discuss that and so much more. Bullish? Bearish? Let us know your thoughts in the comments below or on Twitter @trustlessstate ------ 📣 CONSENSYS | M·A·C: NFT Collection for a Good Cause https://bankless.cc/MAC  ------ 🚀 SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/  🎙️ SUBSCRIBE TO PODCAST: http://podcast.banklesshq.com/  ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: ⚖️ ARBITRUM | SCALED ETHEREUM https://bankless.cc/Arbitrum  ❎ ACROSS | BRIDGE TO LAYER 2 https://bankless.cc/Across  🏦 ALTO IRA | TAX-FREE CRYPTO https://bankless.cc/AltoIRA  👻 AAVE V3 | LEND & BORROW CRYPTO https://bankless.cc/aave  ⚡️ MAKER DAO | THE DAI STABLECOIN https://bankless.cc/MakerDAO  🦁 BRAVE | THE BROWSER NATIVE WALLET https://bankless.cc/Brave  ------ Timestamps: 0:00 Intro 6:30 Backgrounds 11:05 Why Anon? 12:25 What is Treasure its History 17:40 Why $MAGIC Won 22:00 The Bull Case for Treasure 26:40 The Nintendo of the Metaverse 31:45 Bridgeworld 39:40 Harvesting $MAGIC 52:30 Smolverse 1:02:10 Treasure Community Video 1:07:05 How TreasureDAO is Structured 1:14:05 Treasure's NFT Marketplace 1:19:38 Treasure's L1 Blockchain 1:28:10 David's Summary ------ Resources: TreasureDAO https://twitter.com/Treasure_DAO  Bridgeworld https://bridgeworld.treasure.lol/  Smolverse https://www.smolverse.lol/  John Patten https://twitter.com/jpatten__  Gaarp https://twitter.com/_gaarping  Pta https://twitter.com/pugmassacre  ----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/bankless-disclosures 

Welcome Bankless Nation to this edition of AlphaLeak. Today on AlphaLeak, we are covering the Treasure Dow ecosystem, along with thematic token. The Treasure Dow community is extremely vibrant. So shout out to all the Treasure Dow community members in the YouTube chat right now. We've never had such a strong community show up so fast, so quickly to a live stream. So cheers. Thank you guys for being here. In these Alpha Leak episodes, here's what goes down.

We get on a team, an assembly, of people from various communities and various projects around them from the crypto ecosystem just to give the pitch as the bull case for that project, the bull case for that community. Why should we be bullish on the magic token? Am I sleeping on magic? Should it be a part of my portfolio? We are going to go and do a deep dive into the magic ecosystem, the Treasure Dow ecosystem, to really get a full grasp for what is going on there.

And I was trying to do my due diligence on Treasure just to be informed about this interview because we got the three, two of the co-founders and plus one on the show to talk about treasure. But going down the rabble hole, it was so much deeper than I thought it was. But from the gist that I've got, it's a very ambitious project. It spawned out of the OG loot phenomenon, but morphed into something much more grand and much much different. It's in an ecosystem with some insane ambitions. It's both a gaming ecosystem for Web3 and also is helping developers look for distribution, but also could eventually unfold into an open-sea competitor. And so once again, we are going to answer the question, what is the bull case for Treasure

Dow, and am I sleeping on magic? And should I have it as a part of my portfolio? So these are going to be the things that we answer in today's show. If you are a member of a community that is different from Treasure Dow, and you think that the bull case for your community should be told, here's what you need to do. You need to assemble a team. Maybe it's the co-founders, maybe it's the founder. Maybe it's a bunch of community. members. But you need to assemble a team, you need to put an agenda together to help me do my due diligence so I can host a good show, and you need to send it to me and let me know that you've assembled a team, you've got the notes down, and you're ready to tell the bull case

for your particular project, your particular community. And that is what we do. We're going to do these mostly every Friday, but today's Thursday, just because of a special case. But towards the end of the week is with the Alpha League time to talk about the bull case for your particular community. And this week, it is, of course, Treasure Dow's turn. The second we've ever done on one of these things, the first being the Maker-Dow show we did last week. So we're going to go ahead and get right into the show. But first, we've got to let you know about this NFT drop for charity, for good,

coming out of the MAC cosmetic brand. They are doing an NFT drop that where 100% of the proceeds goes to HIV, youth HIV and AIDS awareness. And the art, the NFTs are coming out of the iconic Keith Herring. So if you like Keith Herring, you could have some Keith-hering NFTs. There are three different tiers. There are 5,000 red NFTs for $25, 250 blue NFTs for $150,

and 25 yellow NFTs for $1,000. And again, 100% of all sales and all of the resale fees goes to supporting youth, HIV, and AIDS awareness. You can sign up and get on the mint list on April 10th. There is a link in the show notes. Bankless slash CC. bank list dot CC slash capital M capital A capital C. And you can feel good about participating in this NFT mints

because you can know everything is going to charity. Maybe you haven't found the right NFT for you, but you still want to participate in an NFT mint. So maybe this one is for you. So mark your calendars April 10th. Again, there is a link in the show notes to get all the details regarding to that. Okay, guys, that was all of it.

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Thanks for coming on to Bankless. I'm really excited to dive into Treasure and hear about the bull case for treasure. Garp, thanks for coming on. Yeah, great to be here. And Peter as well, thanks for coming on. Hey, likewise, thanks for having us. And John as well. Thank you for coming on. Yeah, thanks for having us. All right, cheers, guys. First, I want to just dive into a little bit of your guys' backgrounds. So I'll start in the same order that I rattled off some names. Garp, Give us a little bit more of a detail about who you are and how you came to be at Treasure. Yeah, sure. So kind of like similar to a lot of people, had a friend who kind of introduced me to

kind of Eath back in the day, 2016, and was too busy at work, kind of forgot about it. You know, went over my head, which is too kind of wrapped up in things and then regretted that for a long time. 2017, I guess kind of met the early 2017. I kind of fell down the rubber hole like a lot of people did. I actually left my job, like a lot of people, was the top signal. at the end of 2017 into 2018. I actually tried to do a couple of things in crypto

with a couple of friends. Was loads of fun. Had my first child, though. Wife told me you need to come back home. Could no longer travel, which is fine. And then, you know, I've been in kind of crypto ever since, but kind of joined Treasure within the first week. Again, loved buying the top.

So it literally became a community member. Join the Discord. Was really kind of vibing what was going on. And there saw some great stuff from the community early on community with John and the founders. we just had like kind of vibed a couple a couple times and then we got on a call and kind of the rest is history and now I kind of look after after growth it's been a wild ride but loads of fun Peter let's turn to you tell us a little bit about your history and how you came to be a treasure

oh yeah so I kind of stumbled across like Ethereum and crypto in general like in 20s end of 2016 with some of the Ethereum meetups and so forth that were hosted by consensus you know started learning about things like Aragon and like the crazy stuff they were building with like building essentially like their own governance in their own states and virtually. At the time, I was working, like, doing like game theory research in academia, so studying things like option mechanisms and how speculation happens in financial markets, got out of that and eventually was introduced to the guys building open bazaar and helping build some software there, like mobile apps and stuff like that.

And, you know, like got really wrapped up into like the whole 2017-2018 kind of like ICU boom, started working at funds there, and then eventually, you know, it wasn't, you know, all like peaches and rogers there, so there was some, a lot of volatility there. But eventually, I'm stuck in the space, went through like DFI summer and so forth and gradually opened my eyes to like NFTs and especially what the guys had treasuredial day I was doing. So I joined the team a little bit later, but mostly because I just saw a lot of potential with like the, the, the the interplay between defy and NFTs. So yeah, that's my journey.

Awesome. And of course, John, last but not least, give us your background. How did you come to be a treasure and what's your track record throughout crypto? So I got into crypto in 2018. I'd heard about it in 2011. My roommate, I was raving about Bitcoin. I told him it was the dumbest thing I'd ever heard. And I didn't hear about Bitcoin again until 2017 when it was $20,000.

So I realized I'd made a huge mistake. and then I got really into Defi in 2018 and 2019 and then slowly started getting more involved in the space as it was eating up my time. I was a statistical analyst before that. I started writing articles in Defi, and then I got a really lucky break last summer when Sunny Agarwal offered position and growth

at Osmosis, which was about to launch, and then co-founded Treasure last September. Awesome, awesome. Okay, thank you guys. And actually, I want to get into Treasure, of course, because that's what this episode is going to be about. But first, two of you guys are Anon. John, you're not an Anon, but two of you guys are. Why Anon? Garp, let's start with you. Yeah, I think like the original kind of reason for that was because I was working at my old job at the time. And so, you know, I was kind of doing two things at once, I guess working from home kind of facilitated that. I was working, you know, kind of corporate strategy,

within like a big kind of company, probably not advisable for me to also be kind of aping in and doing all things kind of crypto at the same time. I was making it work. I was working probably like ridiculous hours. But yeah, I guess it's kind of been a continuation from that. I suspect over time, you know, I will become doxed, which, you know, I'm sure it will like progressively,

progress to happen anyway. But that's just kind of the genesis. Yeah, got to keep the shenanigans away from the employers while you were wearing a suit and tie. Exactly. Yeah. Peter, why Annan? Oh, like, I'm semi-docs.

So, like, if you dig deeply enough, you'll find out who I am. But mainly, like, I just wanted to keep the focus on, like, the team and, like, the things that they're building and stay focused on, you know, like building what we're building instead of, you know, getting into fights on Twitter and so forth. So, yeah, that's a main reason. Yeah, sometimes I definitely envy you guys, for sure.

All right, so let's go into it. And for people that have never heard about Treasure before, or even the community experts on Treasure, who we can all refine our mental models and our understandings a little bit, when you zoom all the way out, what is the most concise and easy way to explain the product and vision for Treasure?

John, I'll throw this one to you. Yeah, so the idea behind Treasure is that the metaverse is an economic layer more so than a visual one. So we're all from D5 backgrounds, as we mentioned, And then when we got into NFTs, we noticed a lot of people were talking about the metaverse as a 3D thing or VR or AR. But to us, it's more just a digital economy.

It's the basic infrastructure. So, you know, you have resources that can be purely imaginary, but if people can build goods and services on top of them in the form of games or NFTs, and then now we see Dow scaling to the level of actual content and infrastructure providers, then it doesn't really matter if these things aren't, you know, true material resources. The economy is real. And so the way we kind of think about it is that the metaverse is something that users have to build through collective storytelling and imagination. It's not a product that a company can just sell to you and then you buy, like the community has to actually build it together. And so our community

is built around the magic token, which is this, yeah, it's the resource that powers all of the worlds and also our organization itself. All right, cool, cool, cool. I have more questions as a result of that, but I think that's what the rest of the episode will be. Can you, John, can you just speed run us through the history of Treasure Dow? Because from what I've gathered, the vision for what it is now was not the same vision that it started off with. Can you kind of just like speed run people that haven't been paying attention to Treasure through the history so we can get caught up? Yeah, we started off is a loot derivative. And if people aren't familiar, it was this pretty genius project by someone named Dom Hoffman. Coming on the podcast. Oh, nice. That's awesome. Yeah, in my mind, Dom invented the

metaverse. People hadn't really thought of it as this thing that has to be built in a bottom-up way. You know, when you hear people talk about Ethereum is a general purpose blockchain. Lute was a general purpose set of building blocks. And a lot of people were making derivatives. And I had the idea to do it with resources. And if you look at the original treasure cards, they weren't very well picked. Some of them have like cow and donkey on that. But the general idea was, OK, let's just distribute the materials

that people can build economies around. And over time that thesis is kind of borne out, where we see that a lot of metaverses are now choosing to have native monies. Because it's very, very hard for a metaverse to exist, unless the community can kind of agree on what it even is. And so that's what magic does for us. And the way we think about it is it's like,

it's the difference between a ledger and then a consensus protocol. So, you know, a ledger just shows like the canon, like this is what occurred. And then the consensus protocol allows you to actually add new things to the canon. And so magic is what the Dow can use to subsidize what it believes is, part of the treasure metaverse. But anywho, this all came about like over a period of time, and it started much simpler with just the treasure NFTs. And then I had the idea to do the magic token, like, okay, what if we just use the loot formula and create a token that has no real

purpose except to basically bridge the metaverses at the time, which were the most popular in that vein. It was loot in a golden treasure. I really had no idea or plan for where this was going to go and we just wanted to see if it could be like a community building experiment. Because that was pretty much Lute was just a genius blueprint for community formation. And luckily Garp showed up. He was like the first person who came in to the fold, really, and he became a co-founder after two weeks. All of the tokenomics were invented by GARP. And GARP had really an idea to make an ecosystem fund, which over time, like we realized, oh, wow, like we made a money for our organization. And we're driving very very,

value to it by letting people transact in it. And then, you know, since we have 30% of the supply in this ecosystem fund, then that's like allowing our organization to be powered through this currency. More and more people came and just took this idea where, you know, we were one of the bottom ranked tokens on Dex Tools because I didn't do a very good job with the tokenomics. And slowly the whole thesis started bearing out where the community could take something like this and then build a story around it. So someone named End, who is now our product lead for Bridgeworld, and then PETA, and just a huge group of artists, writers, economist, solely came and just breathed life into this, you know, incredibly simple germ of an idea.

So I think what I just heard is that we, with the whole loot phenomenon, where Dom issued these NFTs that were like inverse versus what people were expecting, where the, data about the NFTs actually inside the NFT rather than a JPEG that's on the outside of the NFT, the loot really flipped everything on his head and allowed the metaverse to be rendered at the periphery rather than have like, you know,

a visual representation. That was the cool thing about loot. But then people realized that model was really cool and then A gold got minted to all of the loot holders and some loot derivative holders. And that was supposed to be the bottom up chosen currency of the metaverse. But I think what

I just heard you tell me, John, was that it was actually ended up being magic that was the token that was chosen to be this bottom up. Because you said that it was issued without any single real purpose. And that's kind of what gold was. And also that's what Lute was initially. It was like, hey, we don't really have a game for this. But we're going to issue it anyways and see what the community does. Why did Magic win when Aigold didn't?

Well, actually, so Lute didn't pick magic. Right. I kind of wanted them to. And then so everything that's come after that, like Bridges, World and small brains. These were just proofs of concept. I was thinking the other day, like when you buy a printer, there's a piece of paper in it that shows you what the ink would look like. So we just had to make the pieces of paper to show you this is what our printer can make. But Agold in my mind was not distributed well because the reason the resource can catalyze

metaverse is because people are fighting over it. And you build the story around the emission. and they emitted the entire thing at the beginning. And so, like, I don't know what kind of story you can write around that. Yeah, I think probably just like kind of jumping in as well. You know, one of the great things about it was, you know, obviously kind of fair launch. It brought in a mixture of different communities from, you know, I guess the NFT world with a little bit of defy as well. But just like that whole notion of the bottom up and just being very open, leaving it to the community to kind of build on top of. And then I think we just kind of hit it a little bit lucky, you know, even myself kind of came in with the notion of, hey, you know, these are resources. We can really kind of run with this. We can take this and kind of build it out. And if you have enough people who are really passionate into something, you can, you can do amazing things. And I think that's kind of what happened thereafter. And just like I guess the other evolution of it was, you know, the first phase was really around social coordination and kind of proving out that you can give something value if enough people kind of believe in it. And that's how a lot of things of value, you know, via currency, like all these other kind of resources.

actually kind of come to life. And then I think John's point around, you know, the kind of the piece of paper where you're kind of validating that is really good one in the sense that if we're trying to kind of validate or prove out that magic is monies, so to speak. One way that we do that is by kind of seeding our own projects. So Bridgeworld, which is kind of, you know,

one of the core sources of magic itself and even our treasure NFTs. And we kind of push it out. We're distributing from there into our other kind of array of partners. And likewise small of us, but on more of a kind of a murder side of things. You kind of see like we're bootstrapping the adoption of magic, which is then kind of galvanized through the marketplace, which legitimizes its, it's kind of use as monies on top of all the other, I guess, utility and function that we kind of build out on top of that. And you can see that just through the number of different, you know,

partner projects, derivatives, et cetera, that are all using, you know, magic as monies and recognizes that and building in magic token sinks. Yeah, so it's really trying to, you know, incorporate utility into the magic token by building out these very, ecosystems that all depend on magic as a currency. Is that the gist? Yeah, it's sort of the thing that binds them. You know, we, it's the opposite of other tokens where its moneyness comes from the certainty of its emissions. And for us, we want this thing to be, the emission rules to be incredibly dynamic and change over time, because the Dow should be, you know, pushing it towards new worlds that like allow the story to evolve, but also the

organization to become more financially sustainable. And it's, you know, to us, the thread between many metaverses is the resource struggles occurring between them. The threads between many metaverses. Okay. So the gist I'm getting is that there's, there's a magic token, which was fair launched via kind of like a yam similar staking mechanism where you didn't really have to do too much other than just like stake some of your assets. And the assets were chosen were like A gold's, loot bags, a few other things that I'm forgetting. And it was just emitted fairly that way. And the emission is, I think, the critical difference that you indicated between Agold,

where Aigold was just like birth all at once and distributed. Instead, magic was more slowly emitted into the ecosystem, which helps kind of generate some sort of like energy, some sort of momentum behind it. And then all of a sudden we were starting to get some utility and adoption via Bridgeworld, small verse and I think a few others, which we'll probably talk about as well. But more and more utility, in addition to the emission, which kind of riles up a community, you're also adding utility to the magic token by creating these ecosystems that run on the magic

token. And like the bull case is a little bit about more and more versus flavors of the metaverse coming and lashing into the magic underlying structure, the magic token, and then kind of latching on to a community as well and all, like the rest of the already existing metaverse that's built around the magic token. Am I tracking so far? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the bulk case to me is that most of these metaverses are, I think, are going to go to zero just in the same way that like people stop playing video games because they're nicer looking ones. So, you know, like loot, we're not trying to build a front end to a metaverse. We're trying to

build the piping underneath it. And, you know, these things are being, these dows are going to become enormous because they're going to go out into the world as like brands and iconography. And they'll actually become the organizations that can become the content producers for the next generation. And it'll start as NFTs, but they'll just snowball if the organization is designed well and the community shows up to shape it. And I think that emission feature of magic is probably what allows for energy to be tapped into in the future, right? So A gold was emitted all at once, and then boom, we kind of ran out of steam because it didn't really have any power, they didn't have any gas left in the tank.

But the emission schedule for magic is like, all right, we've got a lot of, like, energy left in the tank. You said that, you know, a lot of metaversers will go to zero in the same way that games went to zero because people stopped playing them. But if we can have an emission schedule, we can, the ecosystem, the magic ecosystem, can adapt to different tastes, different metaverses, and allow it to be flexible into the future as demands for what a metaverse actually is

in the future also changes. Is that also right? Yeah, yeah. And yeah, because we can actually financialize myths now. If you think of how important culturally myths and stories are, just our whole societal organization, and now we can actually make assets out of these things. And that'll just be these kinds of financial assets,

we're just now beginning to experiment with them, but they will be towering, like, in their adoption, I think. I think the, and just kind of add on to that as well, like the other thing is that we're proving out that it is recognized as, you know, a sort of value, one, within our own ecosystem, like two, just like the volume through the treasure marketplace that we've been able to kind of generate, you know, like 300 million plus, on Arbitrum, like the largest by orders of magnitude,

and just the number of partners and just the community members who are willing to kind of build on top of us and again recognize us as money just further validates that. And then because we are all about an ecosystem or a network, we're basically trying to increase the GDP, so to speak, of this ecosystem. So we're not relying on anyone in particular cartridge, so to speak, in that, you know, decentralized Nintendo. There are many that will come and go and just like games. There will be some that work, some that don't. And that's fine, but there's a unifying factor and, you know, being able to bootstrap another partner project into an existing community, or communities bonded behind not only just like magic as money, but just the vision of what we're trying to build

is something quite powerful. And then as kind of John mentioned, kind of bringing that to life through this nearly this infrastructure layer. So we provide the tooling, well, the views to provide the tooling and kind of the infrastructure to allow people to nearly plug and play to kind of build on us

to make us the easiest to work with overtime. And then we kind of turn that into a fly-wall. We're reinvesting the monies that we're kind of generating from that and our internally-seated projects back into creating more common infrastructure, more project, et cetera, and I guess the flywheel continues to spin. So when I was looking around at other YouTube videos

and other articles, people would give me the line that magic is trying to be the Nintendo of the Metaverse. And I was like, what, what the hell does that mean? Like that's just some marketing, me, man, me, me. But like when you just said Garb that, you know, you can like pull one cartridge out and put another cartridge in, it starts to make sense using this model of like, you know,

the magic is the actual, physical console where it's got all this, it's got the structure, it's got the energy, and you just plug in your particular flavor of the metaverse if you want to play that, or you take it out because you're bored with it and you add in a different one. Is that kind of the deal? Is that the gist of it? Yeah, that's a really good way of thinking about it. And I think the other thing is ultimately, you know, we want to get to like one million plus users, right?

Axi's done an amazing job. By far and away, you've got the highest kind of DUs. that's something to really aspire to. And that's something that we want to get to too, and we're very conscious of early adopters in crypto are generally financially incentivized, but we want to be able to get to a stage such that the things that people are engaging with

that they're playing are genuinely fun, and there will be different segments of users. So some people will be really into Bridgeworld, and that's kind of our core. There'll be others who are really into small verse. But then there's games like Battlefly, which kind of caters to a lower end of the kind of the associate in terms of financial needs

to kind of get in. There's also Picaboo, which is another kind of variant of that. So ultimately we'll have this ecosystem in the same way that you want to play on Nintendo, and there's many different games, RPGs, real-time strategy, all that kind of stuff. You'll have those options, but it'll all be unified by a singular kind of ecosystem and one currency, which kind of connects the others together. But importantly, and I think this is one of the most important parts, is that we're taking a very kind of composable approach to all the NFTs within the ecosystem. So when we work with people, we're actually saying, okay, how can you,

you've got NFTs within your story. How can we connect that, you know, narratively with not only our games, like, Bridgeworld as an example, but also with other partners to really deepen the network effects. So you're actually creating kind of layers and layers of demands on top of each other. So it actually does turn into like, you know, as you were kind of mentioned before, like this nation state, so to speak, of interconnected parties. Yeah, and it's the Nintendo thing for me, it's an organizational level. Like Nintendo chooses which games and builders to invest in.

and that's what magic is. Like the Dow should be, you know, you read about the early days of the Nintendo company. They made these playing cards that were used sort of in, like, clubs and things like that. And then the grandson of the founder, I can't remember who it is, he's the one that I created Nintendo as we know it, made a decision to pivot to these new kinds of, like, technologies. And that's what these Dow's have to do.

And magic is the lever that can be pulled. the money is like the lever that allows it to, yeah, to start not only choosing what's real inside the metaverses, but also like what it does as an organization. I think the vision for what you guys are illustrating, I'm super aligned with because a lot of people just like, maybe not a lot of people. I think it's a mistake to think that somebody can just like build the metaverse in the same way that like there's the ready player one thing. Like there's just one canonical metaverse.

and everyone just goes into that one. What you guys are illustrating is that there's, the metaverse is much more modular, which makes way more sense to me. As in there will never ever be one single metaverse. You're not ever going to be like, I'm going into the metaverse. You have to really say I'm going into a version of the metaverse.

That happens to be, you know, bridge world or small verse or whatever, or something, you know, the Yuga Board A Yacht Club version of the metaverse. There won't be a canonical one, but what you guys are building is trying to build the hub, I think, for appending all different flavors of the metaverse into one central hub, because that's really how you get persistent objects across metaverses, right? Where if you have an object in one metaverse and it needs to transport itself to a different metaverse, it sounds like you guys are starting to build out some of that technology in the

magic ecosystem. Is all this correct? Yeah, yeah. And PETA can speak to like our harvester games. concept that we're going to roll out soon. But yeah, that's a good way of thinking about it, is that, you know, these, why would you want to be a single node outside of the network? It's like Ethereum, in a way, you know, defy is composable and you want to be linked to these other protocols. It wouldn't really work if these were just on their own islands.

And the same should be true for metaverses. This is, it's like, you know, to me, these Dowls are actually going to be bigger than blockchains because this human base layer of like collaborating in creativity and then financialization of organizations, blockchains will just be instruments and the base layer is just the people. So that brings up a quorum or critique that I have, which is why would it be magic that is the hub of the Metaverse and not like some L1 blockchain?

But I think we're going to have to come back to that later because I know you guys have a lot to say on that. I actually want to start to dive into Bridgeworld because I think if we want to start to talk about the actual ecosystem, the actual, in addition to the token, because anyone can come into token. Minting tokens are easy. That's the easy part. But it's actually building out the actual verses themselves. That is the hard part. And I think Bridgeworld is the first part of the magic ecosystem.

If I'm understanding things correctly, that would be the first place to start. Is that right? Yeah, that's correct. So, like, I guess with like Bridgeworld, like, if Treasured Down, goals incubate games and supercharge their growth with magic emissions and treasure resources, kind of like the decentralized Nintendo thesis, then Bridgewald's goal is to mobilize the economy that gives these resources value, build defy infrastructure and other kinds of infrastructure for them, and then provide games in our ecosystem with like a common economic framework

through which they can integrate, interact, and also compete with one another and informants over magic emissions. So it's kind of like we bootstrap them, we've seen them grow up, and we provide them with this endgame metagame through which they can continuously interact and engage with. So that gives kind of like all these games that are coming through our ecosystem, like ongoing engagement for the communities. I think it's really important for us to be able to think about the long term kind of like the dynamics of how communities stay engaged in within our ecosystem. So I guess like what kind of game is Bridgeworld? So like Bridgeworld is a game of strategy. It focuses on resources acquisition through social coordination. So we have guilds forming, coordinating with each other, acquiring resources, and there's also elements of geopolitics there. So with guilds and games in our

ecosystem, they acquire users, resources, they create and forge items and consumables. And then they have to deploy them strategically in these contests over harvesters, which are basically like concentrated magic staking farms that people basically fight over. So the way we think about is like social coordination is like really important for helping people stay engaged to these diverse economies. So we have like, you know, ways to help people stay engaged at the guild level where they coordinate compete for missions. But then there's also kind of like global level dynamics.

For instance, in our game, aggregate staking in our magic mind powers up the world and unfreezes time in our game. And then slowly the features such as like questing, summoning, crafting, begins to untow and speed up. And the idea is kind of like, we want to get the communication, you think about like coordination as a whole. And we have problems designed such as like tragedy in the commons type problems where the original bridge world begins to slow down and begins to freeze. Yields decrease drop rates fall. Items start to decay and break if that coordination

starts to fail. So it's kind of like a way to make sure that bridge world has kind of like a dynamic inflation inflationary kind of cycle, which I think is important for long term sustainability. Building upon from that is we're building kind of like infrastructure for different groups of guilds and NFT collections to basically compete over the harvesters. So these are like as I mentioned where they're kind of like sushi pools with concentrated yields. NFT collections can like stake in them and then boosting yields. So right now we have like the Lesions collections soon after we're building for like different collections such as like the smalls and then some other ecosystem games like a battle fight to be able to compete, fight over a harvester, and then take over that pool and

also stake their NFTs. So we're kind of creating this dynamic where different NFT collections can enter the ecosystem and have skirmishes over these pools and magic staking pools. So it's kind of like if you want to draw the analogy from like June, you have these harvesters calling around and basically different nations or NFT collections fighting over it. So I guess the way we look at it is kind of like collections on nations. There's interplay between guilds and games. There's collective bargaining between guilds and games and their ability to exert influence

and how Bridgewell and the Treasure Dow metadata game evolves. And I guess the way we think about it is, how do we design on a macro level, the abilities to engage and foster cooperatives to behave in pro-social ways to help grow the Treasure Down ecosystem. So that's kind of like a rough overview about it. Yeah, so let me get some questions in because it kind of seems like this is,

the meta game of the magic ecosystem, as in, I'm getting into gist that, like, the, the bridge world is like the hub of everything. Is that correct? Yeah, like, sorry, just let me elaborate on that. It's not just a one flavor of a particular metaverse. It's not like one game. It is like the connecting central hub between all the other metaverses, and it's where, like, there's this meta game between the other metaverses being played. Yeah, that's correct. So it's kind of like, I guess the defy analogy is like with curve, you have curve the protocol and you have all these other guilds playing the curve wars kind of game competing against each other.

We're kind of structuring a little bit different so it's not as like kind of like free fall, but rather games in an ecosystem are participating as like the participants in this medigame. Yeah. And they're basically what we're turning it into is kind of like almost like a contest framework. So that's something game agnostic, eventually evolving into something that's probably more like e-sports tournaments and stuff like that between games. At the early stages, it would just be basic staking games. So, yeah.

Okay, so I'm going to go ahead and guess that judging from the YouTube comments right now, that the Treasure Hunter Guild is the most powerful guild. Did I get that one right? I think that's just someone shilling. It's more than one person. Let me tell you. There's two, there's actually quite a few. I think there's, you know, 12 plus in total.

And it's been quite crazy in terms of the vibrancy of the community, just initiatives, guilds, et cetera. There's one that's kind of come about because so the MDD or Magic Dragon Guild, a bunch of kind of, you know, defy kind of experts, been around in the game for a long time. They've built out, you know, really interesting kind of pulling mechanism such that, you know, people can pull and leverage group resources. It's probably one of the first to kind of pull it together.

they've been able to pull in, you know, some pretty amazing TVL at the start. You know, we've been speaking to them around like how we can continue to kind of build out tooling together because ultimately, and a lot of them are OG treasure people. They're trying to build for the longer term. Wyclays with Clock Snatcher, who've also kind of teamed up with one of the other games called Battlefly are trying to do the same thing. So we've got these like really talented, highly engaged, very passionate people trying to build out tooling in a lot of ways, which again just kind of further validates, I guess, the overall thesis.

I think probably just the other thing to kind of touch on that Peter discussed as well, kind of think of like Bridgewell was the origins, so to speak. That's where a lot of the concentration of the magic kind of resides and even the treasure NFTs. And in a lot of ways, they're actually, we're using Bridgewell to seed and nearly validate these other partner projects coming in. So you can kind of think of if you're contesting for Magic Commission through these harbyset battles, you're nearly kind of like validating that partner project in some way

because they're able to now, you know, grab this resource, which is now collectively agreed as having value. And so the extent to which you can do that and then overlay in like deep books with their NFTs within Bridgewater itself and then Bridgewell within their own ecosystem, you've now just, you know, appended another project. You've like given life to something. And that's how you kind of build out this network and it becomes quite large over time. And that's like the network effect kind of thesis in a nutshell. Can we dive into the harvesters? Because I want to understand that mechanism a little bit better. So I'm assuming there's, there's, this is part of the magic emission. So there's a certain amount of magic to be harvested. And then that magic can be harvested

via a particular mechanism. Can you explain that mechanism? Whoever can explain that best? Yeah. So harvests are the kind of like concentrated pools with concentrated yields that guilds or games themselves can control. Like you construct stuff, you stake them in those pools, and then you get to enjoy like boosted yields on that. You can boost it by adding, you know, staking NFT collections on them and doing other in-game kind of items, my actions and not creating items for them. But overall, like, what we're building towards is the ability, so imagine with sushi pools that if you can kind of like as an NFG collection take over one and then challenge each other for pools and be able to stake in them. So what we're building towards with these harveteries is like

contests that are kind of almost like a tournament or a contest framework between different guilds and games. So it's kind of like Olympic Games of Gamefly, right? And the idea is that once we provide the economic kind of like infrastructure underlying these contests, then we can change the game formats which are being played. So it's kind of like the Nintendo cartridge analogy. So right now it might be like staking games, King of the Hills kind of battles. But eventually as we get more resources and build high quality games, maybe the game format can change. And how do NFT, like I think you harvest these with NFTs, correct? You harvest it with a combination of staking magic and NFTs.

So the NFTs are multipliers. They boost your ability to harvest yield. For a particular guild? For a particular guild. So right now it's like legions, because that legions is the main collection for Bridgewald. But as we open up and integrate more collections, like say smalls, they'll be able to challenge allegiance for control over one of the harvesters. And then once they attain control, they can stake smalls.

Okay. And then how does an external? project. Can you walk me, if I'm an external project, got some NFTs, I would like to be hooked into the magic ecosystem. I think what I need to do first is to find my way into harvesting. I think that's my first step, I think. Is that correct? And then if that is correct, how do my NFTs become part of the magic ecosystem so they can be enabled to harvest? Yeah. So with that, like, we have a few games that are basically, they're building their collections. And then they're building up a treasury of magic and NFT collections to be able to stake and they earn more magic.

And then as they get more involved, they'll be able to craft like parts that use to, you know, build harvesters and also challenge for those harvesters. So essentially it's like we'll provide a path for external collections and games that want to integrate to build up the treasury and then be able to play this game. Yeah, I think probably the other thing is because, you know, we're relatively early on in the piece in terms of that. And so harvests as a construct is somewhat complicated on the back end. I mean, like, you know, Peter's done an amazing job together with ends and, you know,

our devs and kind of bringing this to light and we're still kind of refining the mechanisms. But, you know, we've also kind of launched another framework, like an ecosystem integration framework to help onboard partners. So if you're wanting to get, you know, involved in some way, shape, or form with the treasure ecosystem, we've got like a grants program now. So we can help kind of bootstrap people like an OPEX perspective that kind of makes sense. but then also emissions as well. And so we kind of sit down with these kind of different partners to kind of work through the token design

to ensure that there's really solid token token sinks in there, like from both sides. One from like their own just mechanics actually makes sense. And then two, the integration, you know, with magic and then kind of three, kind of extending that to the broader like network of games that sit there. And that's kind of one of the key things. And then ultimately like the actual game itself

actually can stand on its own team feet. It's generally fun to play and people will engage with it. And so that's kind of like the, the first step in the door. Once you kind of legitimize that, then you can start to kind of fold into, I guess, the more sophisticated harveter, harvester side of things. I guess one of the hardest things that, you know, we've been kind of grappling in, grappling with is that because you've got so many interrelated parts and so many, you know, people coming from different directions, that trying to find balance, particularly of value and of recognized value of all these different

assets is incredibly challenging. And so if you kind of just let people go for a free for all, you'll have these kind of massive kind of inconsistencies and the arbitrage opportunities, which don't necessarily want to kind of just unlock the tap for that just yet. We're kind of taking a crawl, walk, run approach if that kind of makes sense. So we're kind of going, releasing a bit of a framework, working with the ecosystem builders, kind of refining that, seeing what works, kind of tweak it again to move it into something, you know, that we can really start to scale out. Right.

So going back to the Nintendo analogy, like Nintendo didn't just open up its doors and say, hey, anyone come build a game, they were probably highly selective, highly curative, and only picked quality and onboarded each one game at a time as Nintendo was ready for that. Is that kind of the gist here? I think at the start, yes. I mean, you know, we operate in Web 3 where technically like anyone can just build a game and say, hey, I want to use, I want to integrate magic or treasures into the ecosystem. There's nothing kind of preventing someone from doing that.

But I think I always find it's better if we kind of work together around doing that because it's just, you know, the design is a lot more kind of thoughtful and meaningful if we can do that. So it is somewhat more curated in that sense, particularly to the extent that, you know, we can help them as well. So we still, you know, we have limited and finite resources. We've got our first kind of cohort, which will be probably released next week, which we're kind of really excited about to kind of build that out. And that's nearly, again, going to be this kind of iterative proof of concept that we're saying, hey, we're kind of trying to validate this, what works. And we can kind of just, you know, to your point before, it's very modular.

We can tweak it, but we're not solely relying on any singular projects because we are creating that network. Okay. I think this is the last question I want to ask before we get on to different subjects, but I think it was Peter that alluded to this, how the bridge world changes over time. And I think I'll put this into my words, and Peter, you can check me if I'm wrong. But like, there's a certain emission schedule, there's certain parameters, certain rules for bridge world. changes. And that's like changing the meta of it. If we're viewing this as an MMO RPG, what you're doing with these changing ecosystems is you're changing the meta. And you talked about how it's key for

sustainability. What showed up in my brain when you said that was like kind of like a changing of the seasons, like going from spring to summers, like growing in healthy season. But then you've got to contract and you go from like fall to winter. Is that kind of, is that what you were alluding to? Was I catching on to the right thing there? Yeah, that's 100%. Yeah, that's smack bang on on right on the dot. And it kind of goes back to some like the founding articles that I kind of discovered from like written by the team before I was working there. You know, they have these articles that, you know, basically outline liquidity is time, liquidity seasons and so forth. So kind of like tying the game mechanics back to like durable health of the ecosystem and then

adjusting levers in a way that makes it more sustainable. So if there's overinflation, we have like global mechanics that slows that down, pulls the levers back. And then having like checks and balances between like the guilds and long term stakers, do we have, help control that. And then with the idea that, you know, we can smooth out some of these fluctuations in the economy. Yeah, I really, really like this model. And it's just something that a concept that I think a lot of people should be paying attention to because this happens to crypto at large. In the 2017 bull market, it was like the crypto industry, this very, very nascent crypto industry had an insane amount of just like fertilizer, water and sunlight just dumped

onto it. Before it had even evolved into becoming a self-sustaining ecosystem. So we had all these, like, weird non-functioning plants that were growing all over the place because they read this is the icio mania and then the bear market came and all these non-functioning plants came and got like wiped out and then you know the ecosystem almost died like ethereum almost died in 2018 2019 but like we had uniswap grow we had maker dow grow and then we had the defy summer season where like the sunlight and the fertilizer came back but now we had these really good plants and like understanding crypto from like the lens of biology i think is really helpful and if you're telling me that like uh the magic ecosystem gets shaken up every now and then and like the the it gets the fat gets trimmed and like things

got to stay healthy and not get out over its ski tips and got to maintain competitiveness. If that's the motivations behind this, I think that's super elegant. I think that's great. Yeah, that's like what we're aiming for. Like I think a lot of the, especially with like a lot of the farming kind of opportunity, the emission schedules and so forth, it's not really like they create it with some degree of long term like thinking in mind. but really it's like, well, what's the end game here?

Like, can it last 10 years? Can it last 20 years and so forth? So having something that has cycles of like booms and busts, I think is probably the design what we want to go for. I think that's, yeah, and that's one of the kind of key parts. Like there is just like a natural dynamism with social, just interaction, right? Like people evolve times change.

Like there's a meta that kind of shifts all the time. And we need to be very open to that and kind of go where the, where the narrative goes, you know, within the broader context of what we're trying to shape. I think back in the day where everyone was like, you know, Coda's law, you can't change anything. And it was incredibly rigid, whereas I think we're trying to take a much more kind of modular dynamic approach.

If things need to change, you know, we will change it, you know, based on data, based on the community feedback. But you kind of, you do need to be very open, open to that. And just kind of, you know, be fluid like water, so to speak. All right, guys. We've already covered such an insane amount of ground so far, but there's a lot left to cover. I want to circle back around

to the long-term vision for the magic token. I want to ask you guys about this NFT platform that I hear that you guys are building. And overall, kind of just give my take as to what you guys are building. We hinted at it a little bit in the nation state model, but I kind of want to dive into that a little bit more. Also, there's a community video

that we've got queued up and ready to go, so that is about to come. And so all of these are coming in the second half of the show. Before we get there, though, I love it if the chat just spam, the word L, what is it? If all the Treasure Hunter Guild, if all the Treasure Hunter Guild members

can just spam the chat, because chat activity helps this video get up to the top of YouTube, so do likes and so do subscribe. So if you guys want more people to learn about magic, spam the chat, like the video, and also subscribe to Bankless. We're going to be right back in the second half of the show with a bunch of really cool subjects and goodies.

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and also check out the AVEP Protocol Governance Forum to see what more than 100,000 Dow members are all ravening about. dot ave.com. All right, guys, we are back. And the next part of the magic treasure ecosystem I want to ask about is smallverse. And apparently, John, you're the master of mine behind smallverse. Can you tell us what is smallverse and how it plugs into the whole treasure ecosystem? Yeah, I'm small dev.

Smallverse started as small brains last fall. And I was, I can't remember. It was like a shower thought sort of thing. There were all these NFTs that you staked and then you got a token. And I remember thinking, oh, well, what if, you know, it was a monkey and you stake and then its IQ goes up. And so its brain gets bigger. And then I wanted to do, you know, magic is a social coordination game.

And so if the average IQ of these monkeys is going up, then their world should be advancing. So we also had this public land that would add new landmarks for every 10 IQ. few points, the monkeys went up. And so I sort of sketched this out and then I told a few friends and they kind of thought it was funny and that was the reaction I was going for. So we actually launched it for the Treasure Marketplace as a growth strategy to just try and it seemed like it could be viral as a meme and this could be a way to get eyes onto what we were building on Arbitrum and And then it blew up and got on CNBC next to like compared to punks and bake and stuff. And the coolest part about that is our whole community makes these custom smalls.

It's a huge part of it. And the one that got on CMBC was actually a commonopoly derivative of a small, which I really like. Because small brains is the thing I've done in my life. I'm proud of stuff. Like there's no pretentiousness to it. It's about as smart as I think I am. And I want to just be, you know, I just want to do good on the earth and be an authentic person. And that's like there was no authenticity in NFTs at that point.

It reached like the greed level of defy summer, the antisocialness. And so we just did this thing that was like, hopefully, you know, an organic community forms around it. And that's what I love about the small derivatives is it's like we're not going to, you know, it would be a betrayal of like the small ethereal. those to have someone walk into court and sue someone else over it. It should be this little icon that just makes people happy and can, yeah, just demonstrate that the internet can be a way to bring people together as opposed to, you know, in their truest self-aggrandizement or what.

So yeah, so it started off as a growth strategy that just kind of create this amazing community that's still thriving. Okay, so yeah. I was just going to say like the actual the origins, the right at the start is, you know, something that I think it really kind of bonded the community. It was quite a funny story. Like I think originally all you had to do was to like paint a, you know, draw a picture of a monkey. It could be any quality. It was a pre-mint as well, as with all things that we've done, you know, kind of up to this point. But John, I don't know if you want to kind of tell like how it got

minted, just the just the debauchery and like the funniness that kind of ensued thereafter. It was, pretty amazing but I think it brought the community together. It's like really characteristic of like a grassroots. Or treasure, you know, like this whole, this whole project has been a comedy of errors that each error led to an innovation. Like we had to choose in the original treasure farm how much each project was going to get. And the end project had jumped up to like, you know, three-eath or something. But then it dropped like 90% in a couple weeks. And so they were, those farmers were just dumping mercilessly into us. And the project was basically dead.

But then Garp out of nowhere comes into the discord. And it's like, here's how we save this. And this is the tokenomics. So that's actually what propelled magic success was this like dire moment. And the same thing happened in Smalls where I had been focused so much on osmosis and treasure and trying to get this project out that apparently there was this like phenomenon of like, and I guess it's still going on. I don't really trade NFTs enough to notice it. but people will hack like the admin's Discord account to try and trick people into minting somewhere else.

I didn't know that people did this. And so we were going to launch it at 7 a.m. the next morning and it was taking forever and I was up at 2 a.m. And so I decided the last second, like, screw it. I was just launch it right now. And then our mods and the Discord thought I had been hacked and like went to Twitter and said, this is a scam. I tried to get on a voice channel.

And they were all panning me saying this is a scammer. And I had to make a little, you know, like one of those hostage videos the next morning saying like my name. And this is me. And this is for real. I'm not at gunpoint. Yeah, basically. Like I'm just really small brain. I think is what I said in the video.

But it brought everyone together. And that was kind of the point of it was just to just try and be humble and laugh more. Okay. So, but how does it connect into magic? and like so what's the association between the small brains project and the treasure ecosystem and the magic token? Can you connect all these things for us? Yeah, so those worlds will collide. They couldn't be more different in terms of character sets.

And we want to show this is another proof of concept is that these worlds can be connected through the magic resource. And we've been slowly rolling this out. And it's going to be they're going to be able to earn magic soon. We've just been careful kind of with these integrations because, yeah, easing into them is probably the way to go. Okay. And so it's just like a version of the metaverse that's getting plugged in. Is it going to be its own guild? Is that what a guild is?

Like there will be a small brain guild or is that something else? Am I conflating two things? So when I could do an alpha leak. So there's actually going to be small coin. And small coin, we're going to do the same thing that we did with magic. So magic aggregated four communities in a glit. old loot and treasure. And then what emerged was like this fair is this huge burst of creativity because we combine multiple communities that that were kind of struggling to build things because they

lacked of money. So with small coin, we're going to actually, it's going to be with about nine collections from layer one that includes Kaiju Kings and Wamiverse and Bears Deluxe and several other ones and they're going to come over and earn small coin. And we're going to build a open, composable metaverse together. The idea being it's really hard for a single project to build infrastructure big enough to rival. You know, companies that basically have a stranglehold on parts of the metaverse, quote unquote, metaverse right now. I don't think they're metaverse personally, but like sandbox, for instance, you know, that's why everyone goes to Polygon. because of like these exclusive deals or whatnot.

So like let's just get a bunch of people together and see if we can't build larger infrastructure, which is like one way that Treasure Dow continue growing is that, you know, we can add new currencies and bring and bring new builders tokens in. It doesn't just have to be that these games utilize magic. They can also utilize small coin. And we're just building a multi-varied economy. Yeah. Wait, so is the news of the small coin

according to the community, did that just drop just now? That was it? Well, that it's going to feature Kaiju Kings, Wamaverse, anonymized,

Bears to locks, and several others. That'll be announced soon. That's awful. Those are NFT collections on layer one. Okay. That are going to have

their own PTOE economies. And yeah, so we're going to try and, Why did everyone in the chat just start spamming Battlefly? Oh, so yeah. So Battlefly is this amazing game from, that's a partner project that actually utilizes magic. And Ben, who is designing that, you know, he's an amazing guy. He came to us when our market cap had cratered to $300,000 and was willing to cut a check right then and there for the entire market cap to keep us going because he believed in it.

And then he is now building this incredible game. game. I think they raised 12 million and they have like a staff of 25 to show that, you know, partners can utilize magic directly in game, which is, I was going to say, there's like three main ways that, you know, the Dow will grow as a network. There's like utilizing magic in game, projects like building around our metiverse, like these small derivatives. And then the Dow actually catalyzing new networks like small point. Cool. Very cool. Okay, guys. I think there's two subjects left that I know I want to touch on, one being the NFT platform, the second being a brand new layer one. Are there any other

subjects that we should talk about before we get to those two? The community piece. Is it time? Sure, sure, yeah. Well, you asked earlier, like, why can't someone else just make a magic token like us? And to me, I try to say this, like every time we do this, this really was lightning in a bottle where I had an incredibly fragile and not very sophisticated idea. And then, And I'm not saying this arrogantly. Next to Cryptopunks, we're the most successful fair launch project in NFTs, just because we've drawn in, you know, literally dozens of contributors who took this like very simple idea and turned it into something powerful.

And now it does function as, you know, you can have rival layer ones to Ethereum, but it would be a very bad idea to bet against a network with the best innovators and the most complexity inside of it. And that's what treasurer's mode is long term. And yeah, we made a video to just like, this isn't the full extent of the community, but these are people I could get last minute to just talk about what they built with us. Yeah. Okay.

So this was something I saw on Twitter. And this is actually how we ended up making this episode as like, yo, what community should I cover on bankless next on the Alpha League? What community should we go into? What token should I investigate and overwhelm. It was Treasure Dow and magic. And I can't remember how, but somebody talked about playing a video or something. And I basically tweeted out, like, yo, whatever quick video that the Treasure community can put together in, like, the 36 hours before this show happens, I will play it.

So that is what is about to happen right now. Any last comments before I hit the play button? No? No, go for it. I'm going to do it. All right. Everyone in the YouTube, here this goes. Hi.

I'm Ruehielier. and I made the design for the first legends collection. My name's Karel, and like many, I started out as a community member who built something called Treasure Tools, a companion product to help people navigate and connect with the Treasure ecosystem. Hi, I'm PixelMeth, and I'm the artist who created the art for Small Brinks. I'm Traveler. I started in the community and then stepped up involvement to helping found small verse projects. And here, product leader, Ritual and Live made a suggestion on Discord back in October and got scattered by John.

My name is Andy Amo. I write lore for treasure. I'm Ben. At one point in the first month, I was 15% of the total magic liquidity pool. I'm Timoreghi, and I've helped with creative decisions and art. I'm an animator, director living in London. Hey, Maximi here, creative director and motion designer for Smallverse. I started hosting weekly small talks, bases. I helped Treasure with my small artwork by giving out free customs for the community upon requests. Hi, my name is Topu and I create custom small brains.

Working with the community to build small wishes. I'm Rabbit Fly, one of five core team members on The Last Samarize. I'm Sisu, a ship post, and I bring people together. Hey, I'm cheese. I initially found out about treasure when I was foaming hard on loot. And then I was fortunate enough to be asked to help out on the front end, and the rest is pretty much history. I'm ex. Day 1, DJ, and Minter. Back when we moved from L1 to L2, I helped a lot of people.

Hey, I'm ex-human and I created the Legion concept, This is an non.e. I run a daily treasure market update called The Small Street Journal. Hey, I'm Nathan, and I go by the name Icali as a producer and a DJ. I found Treasure Dow right at launch on Layer 1 when the project was being marketed as a loot derivative. And over the next year, I became involved as a community contributor by creating the theme music for Bridgeworld and other projects within the treasure ecosystem. My name's John, and I'm the original creator of the Game of Life and the current lead on the Trove Marketplace. I met with John and the team last year during the Lute Derivative.

craze and fell in love with the ethos and community and I've been helping out ever since. I joined the Treasure Family for free by staking Project N in the original Genesis mine. Back when the marketplace exploit happened, I built an NFT tracking app to see all the NFTs that got taken and allow us to watch in real time as they were almost all returned. Hey, it's Commonopoly. In December, after the Small Brains launch, I started customizing people's small brains PFP's. What started out as one request by a community member quickly turned into many. And over the course of December, I produced hundreds of custom small brain artwork,

bringing together projects from all around the NFT space. All right, not many communities can put together a video like that in such short notice. And that actually just brings me to a perfect next question. How big is the Dow and how big is the labor side of the Dow? Like, how many contributors are there? And like, how are you guys structured? Are you guys structured as like, are you getting incorporated anywhere? How do you guys coordinate labor?

Good, good question. I think one of the challenges that we've kind of faced over time is that because we have been kind of grassroots, it's, it's been somewhat kind of chaotic. It's a, if you kind of think of like an... It's a pretty cowboy, basically. Yeah, you kind of start with like this little seed and then all like the networks just kind of go out in various directions. You know, we are like fully distributed across the world. I'd say, you know, as a from a core contributor, like on the books, so to speak, we're probably getting close to 30. 30 plus across like all variants, artists, devs, front end, backends, like product leads,

growth, partnerships, all that kind of stuff across the board, across the world. So that's kind of one. But then I'd say like the broader community guilds, ecosystem builders, people build tooling on top of us, people are building projects and want to integrate on us. It's hard to put a number on that. I think that's like pretty large. I mean, 70,000 followers plus on kind of Twitter plus another 45 plus on smalls. plus another like 30, 40 in Discord.

And then I'd say, you know, if you add up all the hundred of the partner project as well, you know, it's a pretty sizable community. And I think the key thing is not just numbers, it's just like the passion that they have in it, that these people are investing their time. And to your point before, being out to turn around such an amazing kind of video like that, where people have, you know, been with us, day one. We've had like near-death moments multiple times, but it's just like we've become stronger every time.

We're kind of, you know, laughing about it before. But we've gone through like the whole FUD bingo card, so to speak. I've made it out through the other side somehow, and we're all kind of bonded together through that journey. I think it's pretty unique in that sense. As we like to say, you can't fall community. So that's something that we like to kind of use as a kind of unifying kind of theme. So one thing I'm getting from you guys is you guys can execute super well, but you said you

didn't say that you're incorporated anywhere. So I think I'm going with the whole, it's Dow first. How do, who, where's the leadership? Where is the coordination? How is this getting all coordinated? So we do have, we are working through kind of legal structures at the moment so that there is one and we're kind of refining that over time. I think, again, because we launched first and were decentralized, we're in a much better

position kind of, you know, regulatory-wise than maybe some others that went the other way. But at the same time, to your question, you've got people in the States. We've actually got a pretty strong Australian contingent. well, which is like I think pretty, pretty rare. I think that was mainly due to the time that it was launched. Which was 3 a.m. American time, yeah. It's prime time, Australian time. But yeah, I'd say probably in terms of concentration,

various over the states, yeah, definitely in kind of Australia. I've got some New Zealand, kind of Japan, across Europe as well. So, yeah, time zones is as a nightmare. In terms of tooling, it's like, you know, standard slack. kind of discord, that kind of stuff. And like how many, how many people in the Slack, for example? More than more than that, because we coordinate our partner talks in there, so probably 50 to 60.

And then, you know, so one thing we had to do as an organization is when we started scaling, we needed to bring in web two people who were extremely good at process. Right. Yes. Okay, that's what I'm getting at is like, where are the web two structure corporate type people? or I'm assuming you guys have to have some of these types. We definitely, this is like, I would strongly encourage this to anyone trying to make a Dow is to think about this sooner than we did.

Like we plucked a amazing project manager from Google who's sitting atop all of our verticals and going through and has worked out this system where we can easily see what people are working on, how much time they have. And then, you know, there's just complexities to that kind of job that I didn't even know about beforehand and there is a value to web two people and the people building trove which i guess we're going to talk about here a second are from google and amazon and um yeah web two web two people and there is a they aren't all with you know not these people like in general i've noticed they're the best you know that but like web two and web three are different in that web three you have to ship

um as fast as possible and sometimes shipping speed and like staying up with viral trends is more important than how well you execute, which isn't like the Web 2 mentality where you can take your time. So there's a struggle between when you put those two types of people together. Yeah, but you guys definitely seem to be on the leading edge of Dow coordination with decentralized mindset. Because this is a topic for a different day, but I'm going to bring it up anyways. DOWs aren't DOWs. They're Dues. They're digital organizations. They're not decentralized autonomous organizations. They're just digital organizations.

So you need that web two sort of like corporate structure because those people are good at that while also needing that Web 3 complexity at the edges element. And it seems to be you guys have discovered best of both worlds with this. Yeah, we've got some really good balance of kind of mix. I would put myself into that bucket. You know, I've worked 10 years plus in, I guess, in the old kind of Web 2 world corporate structure. So I'm pretty kind of familiar with that and just trying to, I guess, you know, professionalize and polish, put polish on the way they operate.

But at the same time, you know, I really love the craziness and the chaoticness of kind of Web 3 because you just, you definitely don't see that in a lot of Web 2 contracts. Just over-engineered, lots of red tape. So trying to meld the best of both worlds is a real kind of balancing act that we're still learning to this day. We definitely haven't got it right yet, but we're getting in the right people. You know, like the trope people as kind of John mentioned, X Amazon, they're bringing all

the rigor around that. Getting Google in as well. But it's just finding that right balance between, you know, having like over-engineering process frameworks with being able to facilitate. shipping fast, not letting kind of perfect to be the enemy of like shipping something good enough to then kind of iterate on. And crypto has the fastest feedback loop in any industry that I've ever seen. So that part's amazing, sometimes too fast. But it's, yeah, you always get to know whether people like what you're doing or not. And we brought in people from Web2 who might,

nearly everyone on Treasure self-selected into it so that they all had like the CryptoNative vibes and then the professionalism and organization of Web2. So it was the, behind the scenes, maybe it looks like, I've heard people say, like, you're not executing your projects, but behind the scenes, I mean, the level we scaled and what we're about to execute is, yeah, I'm pretty proud of it. Yeah. Okay. Awesome, guys. Getting closer to the end here, let's talk about the NFT marketplace. Who should I ask about that? And what is it? Yeah, I mean, I can jump in. I think you, are you referring to kind of true? And maybe I'll take a kind of step back and just kind of touch on the two marketplaces.

So the current marketplace we have at the moment is the treasure marketplace. It's denominated magic. And I think, you know, it's a really important kind of piece of infrastructure in holding, you know, a whole thesis together because it's basically the nexus for kind of binding all the variant kind of deeply integrated ecosystems within one network. And that's played a really vital role. It also helps kind of bootstrap kind of magic and help push it through all these economies as well because it is denominated magic. And then, you know, because they're collecting royalties

of magic, we can kind of work with them around how we bolding kind of token sinks. So that's kind of one. That's more of a curated process. We've just on boarded, you know, six kind of partners probably expecting a whole bunch more down the track as well. The second one is Trove by Treasure. And so that's a generalized marketplace. I think one of the things we saw, and I guess partly by chance we moved to Arbitrum is that there wasn't really a, you know, a vibrant kind of NFT community there at that time. It was still a lot of. of defy kind of heavy, but not as much on the NFT side. We kind of came over there and nearly in some ways kind of created a moat, so to speak, because there was no one at scale there. So we'll be

able to, you know, we were really able to kind of launch that. And actually what we found is that people were really looking out for what is a really nice kind of layer to leverages, kind of Ethereum, the security of the network, but where's an option for that. And we had lots of partners approaching us saying, hey, maybe I don't necessarily want to be integrated within with the magic itself, but like, do you have, you know, can we actually get lists on there? And so there was so much demand there that kind of ceded this next thought, which is around, okay, well, there is demand for a generalized marketplace. And that's kind of what trope by treasure is.

And what we're trying to do there is all around kind of gamification of users into the actual marketplace itself, obviously creating a really good user experience, kind of catering to that, but engaging them in a way that is just more than just like buying and selling kind of NFTs, so to speak. and then kind of weaving in the overarching token economics. But that will be denominated in ETH and potentially USC as well or some form of Sable. So it makes it a little bit more accessible. And it's not just P to E or games.

It could be a P of P's generative art, like the whole gamut. Yeah. And I was telling someone this the other day that, so we're the alien and alien where we burst out of the chest and we were the super fragile thing. We had to run away for a while to arbitram. but now we're big and we're going to start, yeah, trying to eat away into bigger market shares when the a alien comes back and Trove will be like our first foray into that. Bigger market shares.

Well, the only other two market shares that are out there are OpenC valued at 13 billion and looks rare, which is, I don't know how large that's valued it, but at least a couple billion, I think. Really ambitious. Are you guys trying to eat into just the general NFT trading volume market? that what the goal of this marketplace is? Like you just want NFT volume on your guys' marketplace? Yeah, it's a divestment strategy mostly for us. So even if we don't take down open C or, you know, I mean, the amount of time we save and just to be able to have this fundraising thing

where we're not having to like sell our native token OTC and then we can just use the magic we're earning through the marketplace to reinvest in new builders and stuff. That's ideal for us. but, you know, I think we're going to be able to allow collections from layer one. And then we've also taken this kind of idiosyncratic bet, that layer two, Arbitrum does have the security of layer one functionally. And it's cheaper, and users love using it. And over time, it's kind of, you see these collections that are like halfway committing to layer two. But they're going to look like, you know, it'll look kind of absurd over time to have not committed. to layer two.

I think it also allows us to like have a mechanism to go cross-chain as well if we need to, because a lot of the value is still on L1 from a trading perspective. And lots of the infrastructure like GEM, et cetera, will eventually go cross-chain. So the extent to which we can kind of tap into that, I think is going to be really great. It just kind of adds another kind of piece of infrastructure into this like broader infrastructure that we're building across the board. And so, you know, we've got our home in Arbitraim at the moment. We'll obviously explore kind of going forward,

like go where the users are, so to speak. But this is just like another kind of, you know, way for us to build out in the same way that Treasure Marketplace did that for us as well. Right, well, and it makes a ton of sense, right? Because if people are going to be participating in the Treasury ecosystem, and as more and more cartridges get added to the Nintendo

or more and more Metaverses get plugged into the Hub, the Bridge World, I think that's the right way to phrase it, then you're just going to need to be able to facilitate more and more types of economic activity in NFT trading seems to be the obvious one. Do there any other aspects of the story that we haven't covered yet? I think that's the part. And just going back to that point we said before, which is around like how do we create and build the GDP of the network, basically, that we're building here.

And the NFT marketplace helps supercharge that. And it also just feeds the flywheel that we're doing as well, which allows us to reinvest its project as well and more infrastructure. Okay, guys, I think this brings us to our last topic of conversation before I share my mental model for what this whole magic thing is, because I've got some ideas that I've been forming while we've been speaking and while I was doing some research ahead of time. So I want to share that with the community. I think the community is going to love it. But from what I hear, you guys are thinking about hopping onto and building out a brand new layer one blockchain. Is that true?

Yeah. Yeah. What's the story there? What's the, what would be the utility for a layer one blockchain for the treasury ecosystem? Well, there are two reasons for me. The first is that, you know, pretty much every money in crypto, it gets its moneyness because it is the native token of the blockchain. You'd be hard pressed to find an example that isn't true for besides like Ome and Temple. And they've had, you know, they had difficulties actually solidifying that.

And so we have created these like games that it would actually fit very well if guilds were validators. And like staking is a really important part of our game. And so we want to take it from just a thing that helped us decrease the float. So to accomplish price stability to being like a literal consensus. And then the second is that so I work at osmosis. And the thing I really like about cosmos and I want to bring treasure into this world is that these self-sovereign chains, there's such a like just a state of play that goes on and the amount of creativity when you get to spin up new chains. and think about changing the consensus in like really original ways that I don't think people realize like

how DGN some of this stuff is like so osmosis the big feature is going to be threshold encryption so what if you could have no one knows what's in the mempool and then these transactions get validated and then revealed after they've been like finalized in a block form like not only is that amazing for defy and you know it doesn't require any friction built on top it's just actually built in to the consensus, but it's good for gaming because it wouldn't be fun if like a guild could see what the other one was going to do. They would just, you know, it eliminates the fun of it to like eliminate the strategy. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. You know, I've heard cosmos people talking about like, well, what if it was a defy chain and it was truly gasless

because you're just paying out of like yield, even future yield or whatever, you know, like, I want to be near people who can make our organization smarter because they're just brilliant and they have that attitude of like, well, let's just pull this out and see if the machine still works. It's also kind of like the final piece if you kind of think about it in this kind of bottom up build, started with money's economic layer, proved that out through social coordination, bootstrap that through our own internal projects, kind of accelerated the flywheel by onboarding partners, building our infrastructure. So we're like literally building it out from the opposite way that a lot of people do. And then actually ending with a base layer, which then kind of solidifies and anchors everyone.

And if you kind of think about in the same way that, you know, DFK did the same thing with a subnet on Avalanche, but, you know, we've been talking about this for a while as well, but like having magic as, you know, helping to secure the network. This again, it kind of really leans heavy into, you know, what Bridgewell is doing through the Atlas mine and what people are trying to compete with, kind of extending that through to, you know, securing this new chain, which just adds a lot more kind of depth to the utility of magic kind of going forward as well. And you kind of apply that across deep prime primitives that we're going to be building on top of that.

And you now have like, you didn't know, this full end-to-end stack, which is held together by that base layer. Yeah. And it's, sorry, we're moving slowly, and not for technical reasons, but also cultural ones. Like Ethereum's advantage in NFTs is like extremely strong

because it's, you know, I feel like we kind of started chipping away of that when the floor prices on our, NFTs was like high enough for people to see, wow, you can actually have NFTs that can have value on L2. But, you know, it's a long battle to convince people to move their ecosystem elsewhere. So from my understanding with layer twos is that they can do everything that a layer one

blockchain can, but they don't have to worry about their own security. And so like you, if my understanding is correct, and I'm, I think it is, like all of these like guilds that can be their own validator, All of those features are still preserved in a layer two blockchain. And it's just a matter of the guilds rather than having like layer one consensus, they can just propose and sequence transactions and proposed blocks. But instead of for layer one, it could be a layer two. So maybe just answer the question twice.

Why a layer one blockchain instead of building out your own native layer two? I think they're, we've just sat down and brainstormed ideas of really cool stuff. people should experiment with like what if NFTs were part of validator bonds or even block rewards or what if you had like the validator set scaling with the

user base just kind of like yeah stuff that you really need to have total control to customize the the blockchain itself and it would just be fun to experiment with that that's what the whole loot thing was

it's just like yeah mess with it and see see what happens. Okay. Are you worried that becoming a new layer one blockchain would make you antagonistic to all the other layer one blockchains that are out there? It would be like very, it would be a very purpose, a very single purpose, which is to have our games there.

And there's just no way you can really have games without them being like basically free at the transaction level. And, you know, we've seen Polygon break because of like, Stardue Valley clone. So and they have like countless ecosystems and I think all these ecosystems user bases of all these niches in crypto are going to 100x. So I mean, that thing is just going to continue breaking. Self sovereign chains are inevitable, I think.

I mean the treasure ecosystem is over a billion dollars in market cap, but would you guys raise to bootstrap this layer one effort? Yeah, I think to in order to kind of do this, um, properly and kind of thoughtfully, we would definitely look at the resources required. So, you know, that's part of our planning as well. We're trying to take a, you know, a thoughtful approach. Obviously, it's hard because we need to, you know, put it within the context of the macro environment. No one's really sure where that's kind of heading, so to speak.

So obviously just trying to secure our runway, make sure that we're still delivering on a roadmap without overextending ourselves. We've shipped very fast, as you kind of mentioned in the past, but we just want to make sure that, you know, we are slowing down, that we're doing things well. while not kind of losing that essence of kind of Web3, that building out that that chain, we want to do that properly, but also, you know, with enough speed that we can get that kind of the Web3 kind of flavor to it, so to speak. But again, not rushing something as big as that.

And funding will likely be required to help us achieve that. To toot our horn there, like we have said our NFTs are CC0, but we have 150 million in our treasury and our native token. And we haven't had to do any of the gimmicks like making an LLC and sell some of the equity. So we're talking out of both sides of our mouth. We truly were a fair launch project that I can rival these other ones just in terms of financial sustainability. Yeah, yeah, totally.

All right, guys, I kind of am ready to give my summary from what I understand for this whole thing, but is there any other aspect of treasure or magic or anything else that we haven't touched on yet? That's worth bringing up? Probably just like one other thing is that I think with a lot of the games that kind of getting built now, particularly from the bottom up.

They've been really good, but they're still very financially driven. I think one of the things that people have spoken about is creating games that are genuinely fun. And we are kind of working with partners who come from like really esteemed AAA background games, like high fidelity and talking to partners there to build something out to really, again, prove out that you can make a generally fun game, like literally proper playing, high fidelity, highly engaged game for users that is going to help us cross-examination. chasm to like one million plus users. And it can be done on treasure.

That's the thing that we're trying to prove out there. And so that's something that we're looking at extremely closely. And hopefully we'll have some more details on that. Yeah, alpha league coming soon on that one. Awesome. Also, maybe I'll have to bring you guys back on the show to have that Alpha League too. Bankless likes to monopolize alpha. Okay, so here's kind of where I think that this is going.

And I'm super aligned with your guys' vision. of the metaverse, right? Like there's not one canonical metaverse. You have to build smaller metaverses and append them onto the same layer, right? And with this whole magic as a currency of this metaverse, and especially as you guys are getting into layer one blockchain,

this has moved from being well beyond a defy app, well beyond an NFT ecosystem, well beyond a play to earn game, even beyond a play to earn gaming ecosystem. And in my mind, what you guys are building is like one of the new age nation states, a digital nation in the clouds. And nation state kind of incorporates ideas of like actual physical land. But like in the Web3 world, our nations are digital, right?

They don't actually have physical land, but they do have a central currency. They do have a community, which I'm watching on the YouTube, just be super energetic. And there's even like this whole like kind of states model too, where you have like the federal model, the federal hub, which I think is the bridge first, the bridge world. But then you have all these like newer and smaller metaverses which get depended on, which feel like states, right? They get to play by their own rules so long as they play by the rules of the meta state, which is like the bridgeverse and they use the currency of the overall ecosystem,

the magic treasure ecosystem. So I'm seeing, and especially as you get into a layer one blockchain, you guys are, I think, are building a what could only be described as a, Web 3 Nation. You got the community. You clearly have the culture. They clearly have their own values. And anyone listening to the podcast, you can watch on the YouTube and see all the people in the comments. And you're building out your own currency. You're building out your own infrastructure with the NFT marketplace and the games. I think what you guys are building are a digital nation. How does that land with you guys?

I don't know legally what we should say there. Now, legally like whatever. Oh, well, okay, I get to say whatever I want. I know you have to be a little bit more. No, I mean, it is, it is like a I mean, a nation makes a money to represent. It's a metaphor. No, but I agree with you at a literal level. Yeah, we're a community who made a money to represent the value of what we built. Yeah. Cool guys.

Yeah, like if I can just chime in there, I get a lot of inspiration from Bellagis folks on network state. And so like what you just described kind of line with all that, like geographical borders are melting away. We have our money. We have our community. and the next step is really to crowd reinstate. So, yeah. Awesome. Well, I'm looking forward to joining the treasure nation state in the clouds.

I feel very welcomed by all the community members in the YouTube chat right now. So you guys are watching the YouTube. Thanks for being here. I always appreciate when there's liveliness and energy in the YouTube chat. If you have not yet liked the video, please do that. If you have not yet subscribed to Bankless, I can't imagine why you wouldn't have. But if you haven't, just remember to hit that subscribe button. Garb, John, and Pita.

Thank you guys so much for coming on and giving me the bull case for the treasure ecosystem. Are there any last comments from you guys about treasure, about magic, or I don't know, about anything else? No, thanks for having us. This is one of the, like, you know, pinch ourselves moments to get to do bankless. So we're really grateful. Yeah, thank you so much. I love being on here and having a great kind of chat. I guess, like, one thing, can we get an E from you, sir?

I did promise. So somebody's been asking me to croak a lot in the YouTube chat. Yeah, he's been asking me to croak. But I don't know. Got a croak as well. But I'll go ahead and give the ee. I don't know how to do it. Is that right?

Love it. That's perfect. All right. Once again, Garb, John, and Peter, thank you so much for joining me on this Alpha League edition of Bankless. Once again, if you are a part of a community and you think that your community's story needs to be told, your Dow's story needs to be told, or if you just are particularly bullish on a token, hit me up on Twitter.

hit me up on Twitter, generate a team to come and explain that bull case for me. Generate some notes so I know what I'm talking about. We will make a show to be the bull case for your community. This was the bull case for Treasure Dow and for Magic. I will let the listener decide for themselves whether they think Magic should be a part of their own portfolio or not, whether that's for them or not. And once again, thank you for everyone to listening. Please remember to like and subscribe.

Wherever you listen to a podcast, you can subscribe to Bankless. And if you are once again on the YouTube, make sure to like the video. I think I'm getting a small, a small version of my Cryptopunk. I think perhaps, and if I do, I will be happy to do stuff with that. And again, guys, thank you once in that one last time for coming on. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you.