Bankless - AMA w/ Zapper | Co-Founder Seb Audet and DeFi Dad

Episode Date: November 12, 2020

🚀 SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER: http://bankless.substack.com/ ✊ STARTING GUIDE BANKLESS: https://bit.ly/37Q17uI❤️ JOIN PRIVATE DISCORD: https://bit.ly/2UVI10O🎙️ SUBSCRIBE TO PODCAST: http://podcast.banklesshq.com/ 👕 BUY BANKLESS TEE: https://merch.banklesshq.com/ ----- 📢 DEFI BUILDER? APPLY TO FILECOIN ACCELERATOR FOR $20K GRANThttp://bankless.cc/filecoinapply -----GO BANKLESS WITH THESE SPONSOR TOOLS:  ⭐️LEDGER - BEST HARDWARE WALLET TO SECURE YOUR CRYPTOhttps://bankless.cc/ledger-20 🚀ARGENT - GET THE MOST SIMPLE AND SECURE DEFI WALLEThttps://bankless.cc/argent 💳 MONOLITH - GET THE HOLY GRAIL OF BANKLESS VISA CARDShttps://bankless.cc/monolith 🤖YEARN - YIELD-SEEKING MONEY ROBOT THAT FARMS DEFI FOR YOU http://bankless.cc/yearn ------ Zapper AMA with Founder Seb Audet and DeFi Dad  Zapper is a home-base for your financial activity on Ethereum. Load up your wallets at https://zapper.fi/ and use Zapper to make quick and easy transactions in DeFi! DeFi Dad on Twitter: https://twitter.com/defi_dad Seb on Twitter: https://twitter.com/sebaudet26 ------ Don't stop at the video! Subscribe to the Bankless newsletter program http://bankless.substack.com/ Visit the official Bankless website for resources http://banklesshq.com/ Follow Bankless on Twitter https://twitter.com/BanklessHQ Follow Ryan on Twitter https://twitter.com/ryansadams Follow David on Twitter https://twitter.com/TrustlessState ----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time we may add links in this channel to products we use. We may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. We'll always disclose when this is the case.

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So you don't have to go through your centralized exchange like Coinbase or Gemini or wherever. You can just go straight from your bank account right into your monolith checking account smart contract wallet. So check them out at monolith.xy Z. Hello, bankless nation. Welcome to another community. Ask me anything. This is an AMA. This is your opportunity to ask some of the most interesting projects,

some of the most interesting people in crypto, questions that you have always wanted answered. So to ask a question, type it into YouTube. If you are a bankless member, you can type it into the inner circle discord and we will prioritize those things. David and I throughout this conversation will do our best to field your questions to our two guests today. And with that, I want to introduce our guests today. This is part of the team at Zapper. So Zapper is a DFI interface. It is a kind of a bankless bank interface, and you can do tons of things with it. It's a fantastic tool. We recommend it all the time. I have Seb Audet, who is the founder of Zapper, and I have

Travis Blaine, but you probably know him as Defi Dad. We just call him Dad. We just say David calls him Dad. I'm not quite comfortable with that yet, but Defy Dad's okay with me. And he is the COO of Zapper, huge contributor to the Defy space as well. Gentlemen, how are you doing today. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you, Ryan. That was a pretty good intro. Yeah, we're doing pretty good. Awesome. Thanks for having us, guys. Yeah, Ryan just makes everything

sound exciting. Like, we were 80s talking a few minutes, and then like the cameras turn out. I was like, hey, everybody, welcome to the... My kids say I have a podcast voice, and it's totally different, so whatever. All right, let's

start with this question. So we're field some questions for the community, but I think we just want to get a base. So there are people out there that haven't used Zapper yet. Believe it or not, even people in the bankless community may have not used Zapper yet. Gentlemen, what does Zapper do? Yeah, so Zapper helps you understand your portfolio first. So say you do a ton of different investments in DFI, you know, you're playing with a bunch of different protocols. You know, Zapper helps you bring all that information and put it in one interface.

So that's the first thing. Then the second part is actually, you know, being able to manage your funds. So we help people go into uniswale pools, balancer pools, and reduce the friction around doing those transactions. So instead of doing, you know, a couple of transactions to enter a uniswold pool, you could do it, you know, with one transaction on Zapper, which we call a zap. It's brilliant. Like using zap as a verb, which means you get to like do something really cool in Defi,

you zap into into something. And I guess Travis, I would love your perspective on this too. Like so what is the end game for Zapper? What are you guys trying to do? Is this like an interface for all things defy, all the money verbs, as we call them on bank lists?

Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. I think the high level like mission is to make DFI easy for everyone. And so by the way, too, I don't know if we're able to share screens. Like I feel like there are a screen if anyone's ever not seen it. But yeah, the goal is to allow you to track your D5 portfolio and then to be able to have the same access as others who might be more sophisticated in DFI and be able to navigate all the different platforms and all the different strategies. By creating a ZAP, we in many cases consolidate could be like three to seven transactions

into one or two. And so it saves them time. It saves them money. It saves them effort. But I think like more than anything, it's, you know, it's like really doing what a lot of fintech has done where, you know, you take away all of the friction points. Robin Hood's incredible because you can go on and you can trade. you know, with nothing to stop you from putting in as much money as you want to whatever stocks,

and there's no fees. And I think similarly, we're just trying to enable that sort of access through defy. And important to note, you guys never take custody of assets, right? So it's basically bring your own wallet, bring your own private keys, plug it in, and you get this entire interface. You could plug in a Metamask, you can plug in your ledger account, wallet connect, whatever you're using, right? Yeah, exactly. We don't custody any. users funds you were just this you know way to plug into defy so i've got my screen up here is this can you see yep to uh earn yield or do some yield farming and then you can see here even a breakdown of different platforms that i would have money in here so like i have some money some stable coins in

barn bridge that's uh earning me bond and so that three thousand dollars of value here is stake there the other side of the coin though is to be able to use a zap. And so this is where I could look for a liquidity pool, let's say with, let's say, USDC. I've got the one here for Uniswap and I can just add liquidity by using one of the tokens that's actually in the pool like USDC or ether, but I can also use the most liquid stable coins and tokens in defy like dye, tether, link, wrapped Bitcoin. And so at the end of the day, what's happening here is if I were to go in with, let's say, tether, Zapper will swap out my tether. It'll split it 50-50 into USDC and ether.

And so this is a lot of manual work that all of us had gotten used to over the last few years. that's been consolidated now into an automated money software. And then the last piece of the puzzle is just the fact that we offer a decks aggregator. This is what Macha is by X. That Dex aggregator, their API is what powers this exchange. So if you like Macha, if you feel like you're getting the best rates and the least amount of slippage there, you can actually trade within Zapper now using the power of the ZeroX AP. So, Dad and that and Seb,

Zapper is a previous sponsor of the Bankless podcast, so I guess full disclosure there. But the way that I described it in the ad read was like, you know, the 2017 bull market was like characterized by like pulling out your blockfolio and just like refreshing it like all day, like all day every single day. And, you know, that was fun times. That changed? I've been doing that for three years now. Yeah, but now I just go to Zapper and I just hit refresh, refresh, refresh, refresh. And like the difference between like Blockfolio and Zapper is that Zapper, you load up your wallets.

And with Blockfolio, you have to like manually input your trades, your assets. And especially with things like rebasing tokens, like that doesn't even work in Blockfolio these days. And so Zapper, it's like it's going directly to the source of what the data is. And the best part about it is like you can have multiple wallets, right? And so I think this next bull market is going to be characterized by just like refreshing Zapper over and over and over again. But that's just like only one half of the product. The other half of the product is what you were just explaining, Dad, where you're saying you can access defy things in a more efficient route. When you put those two pieces of Zapper together, is that the whole product or is there other stuff as well?

So like we see Zapper, there's two aspects, right? There's the UI aspect. So there's there's the Zapper.Fi, you know, the interface that everyone sees. But the other side of the product that isn't as well known is, you know, what's powering all these possibilities through those transactions. So it's the UX part, right? And that's a part of the product that, you know, we're working to gear towards more, developer audience.

So basically could, you know, help us build out new Zaps. So, yeah, I mean, right now, the more well-known of the product is, you know, the Zapprodot if everyone sees. But there's also another part, you know, which is in our docs where, you know, people could actually play with Zaps and build out to new variations of them. So cool. It's almost like a Netscape, you know, a Netscape for seeing and being. able to do something with all of the money legos that are being built out on on defy right there.

So like that's an early internet analogy. I also want to talk about another kind of early internet analogy, which is how you guys built Zapper. Like what's the story there? Because right, so you think about if somebody wants to start a fintech company on traditional banking, on the traditional banking stack, it is really damn hard. Right, like all of these APIs, you have to plug into all of these kind of regulatory requirements, all of these relationships. You have to have, I think that's different when you're building on Ethereum, when you're building on DFI.

Because, Seth, correct me if I'm wrong, you guys started as a hackathon project, right? Can you tell us the story of how Zapper was actually built? Yeah, absolutely. So Zapper's story is kind of like an interesting one where it came from, two, you know, small side projects that got together. So the first part was defy Zapp, which was really the transactional aspect. So you would go on the website and be able to enter a pool with one input. The other side was Defi SNAP, which was this pretty much what you see on Zapper today

when you land on the front page is being able to just track all your assets. So I came from the Defi snap side. So perhaps I could tell a bit more of, you know, that side of the story. So yeah, during fall, that's where I really started to, you know, look into Defi, do a little bit of investments here and there. And, you know, at one point it was just really hard to track my own assets. So yeah, I had this crazy spreadsheet going. It was becoming really hard to maintain. At one point, it was almost like, okay, well, building a web app that would do this would be easier to just maintain my spreadsheet.

So, yeah, that's where I started DefiSnap. And originally it was just a very small use case. It was just synthetics and uniswap because those were the two projects I was using the most. So it was just something I built for myself. And then, you know, just published a link on the synthetics discord in January. And from there, it really, you know, just had this crazy snowball effect. Wait, said that, was that January of this year? January 2020? Yeah.

Wow. Okay. I didn't realize it was, it was that new. Wow. No, no, yeah. It's crazy. Like, I mean, last year, this day, I was, you know, I had another job working at at Shake Pay in Canada. So yeah, it's crazy how fast all of this happened. And, you know, I think the, you know, in May 1st we merged. So that was the official day that Zapper was founded. And it was kind of like being at the right place at the right time because we never saw yield farming, you know, exploding like, you know, I guess nobody really saw it. And Zapper was in a perfect like place in the market to leverage that because we helped people go into pools and stake those assets. So we were just like the yield farmer's product. And from there, that's kind of like where we got all this

this crazy traction. Less than a year, small team built it, didn't need to ask anyone's permission, and it's already as powerful as it is now. I think that's the story here. Seb, I think this is a perfect time to ask the first community question. I'm going to ask this. This is from an anonymous source. It's not from David or I.

So let's talk about defy Zapp plus DFI. So, Seb, you were a main coder there, and then Noter was the other coder. Who is the better coder between you guys? Is that better or is Noter better? Oh, my. Well, so Notar doesn't code. He codes a bit.

Okay. From the Defi Zapside, there's Notar and Suhiel. Suhiel is a magician with smart contracts. So Suhale's definitely better than me on the smart contracts. Notar is more like this, you know, financial engineer. He has these really good ideas around, you know, building these new Zaps. And I'm more of like the front end. And so, like, I can't say who's the best coder per se.

We all have kind of our own, our own expertise. And you definitely have one of the best educators in the space, Defy Dad. That, you know, fantastic pickup. Defy Dad, when did you join the team? Gosh, I only joined, I think it was what, end of August or mid-August. So I had been using Zapper forever, like all of us. And by forever, I mean for six months or whenever. it.

But I also used defy zaps back in November when Nodar and Sue Hale had launched around. It was like November 2019. And that was, I mean, at that point, we were all so excited because defy was gaining traction and we were headed towards a billion in total value locked. And then along comes this idea of zaps, which to me was like, whoa, okay. So I no longer have to explain all these steps for one of my. friends to get into a liquidity pool. I can just send them a link and just say, just follow this and deposit your money and it'll do all the hard stuff for you, splitting your tokens and creating the

liquidity provision. So then when they combined forces, being able to track your portfolio plus zaps, it was like, all right, now this is like becoming like a hub for both newbies and sophisticated users. And then, yeah, I mean, I feel just really lucky. Like I was, you guys know, I was working at consensus. I mostly focused on the Ethereum Summit. And, you know, I was spending all of my time creating tutorials and trying to educate on Defi. So it made a lot of sense to work on a platform that is like an on-ramp for Defi users. So yeah, been, been since August and just it's been really, really fun. I mean, I have a tough time shutting off from work right now.

And for all those people that have watched my Ether, Triple Point Asset talk at Ethereum, you can thank Defi Dad for that one. He's the one that got me up on that stage. So it's a tip of the hat for that. You know what's interesting, David? Go back to Ethereum in Tel Aviv in 2019. So this was in the fall. It was, I think, September.

and we had a stage dedicated to Defi. We called it the Defi stage. Now, granted, defy already had like a pretty awesome community, like, you know, maybe like a few thousand that were paying close attention, a few hundred that were really like hyper involved. And, man, I had so much pushback from so many people. Like, why are you dedicating all this time to this topic? What's this defy thing?

Yeah, and that's pretty easy with your talk on Ether as a triple triple point asset. We had a bunch of folks like Pull Together was really new as well. And Khyber Network was very well established. Actually also like, you know, our brothers from Xerion, they were there as well talking about all the cool stuff they do tracking DFI portfolios. So it was, you know, it's only a year ago, but it's nuts how so much of this now has become accepted truth to all of the us that Defi is here for the long run and that 15 billion in total value block is nothing compared to where we're going. Yeah, that's where I met Layton from Pool Together and that's where that's where I met Tom from Delphi. And so like that was the hot stage. So like dad, like you've been leading the

charge with making sure that defy is in everyone's brains. Yeah. Yeah. So much fun. So, we've had a great year. It's been really exciting year. I do want to get back to what said was talking out with, so there's the world of building smart contracts, right? But Nodar is the financial engineer. And that's almost like a coder in of themselves in the defy world. Like you need, you can't just have somebody who's good at solidity. You have to instruct them, okay, what are we going to do with all of this like financial, like all these financial like money Legos? You need an engine, literally an engineer to put all the Legos together and construct them in a particular way. And what I see going on in the background of Zapper is that you have these financial engineers,

who I guess is Nodar, and I'm sure there's others as well, who are learning how to construct these money logos into actual structures that you turn into products on Zapper. Seb, can you talk about the side of financial engineering and how important that is to Zapper? Yeah, I mean, it's a super important side because, you know, when, you know, building a smart contract, yet. Like you could be like a smart contract ninja and know all the solidity, you know, tricks. But if you're missing all the financial context, then you can't really, you know, build a useful, you know, smart contract within the application of DIPI. So, you know, there's a whole side of, you know, building the smart contract, which is the whole, you know, financial context. And that's definitely

something that's very hard to do as, you know, a lot of people, like a lot of the, you know, Floyd's or, you know, hacks we've seen. They're not all, you know, smart contract bugs. A lot of them are smart contracts that didn't, you know, think of all the economic context that was, you know, going around that smart contract, which is super important to keep in mind when building. So, yeah, that's a side that we're definitely very focused on because, like, you can't just focus strictly on the code itself and not think of all these different moving parts.

I think, you know, I've read a lot about, I think Kane or another synthetics team was talking about how their, you know, process for developing new smart contract changed as, you know, more synthetics pieces got not swallowed necessarily, but, you know, plugged into other protocols. So that's a whole new side of things that you have to factor in. Got a question that I want to throw in that is a fairly well-upvoted in Discord and on YouTube from Corpies. So do you guys plan to have a token? And if they answer that question is yes. Why is the answer yes? Well, let's assume that, you know, there's some optionality here. If the answer is yes, what would the token be used for is the question?

Yeah, so, I mean, that's always a tricky question to answer. Like, we kind of repositioned that whole question into thinking, what do we see, you know, Zapper being long term? and we see Zapper as being this community-owned project. And the way we kind of tackle it is it, you know, we don't see Zapper, well, the core team being able to build, you know, all the ZAPs and all the new protocol integrations. Like we're seeing DFI explode.

And, you know, it's hard for us to be able to track everything and add things. We also don't want to be in a position where we kind of, you know, decide which protocol to add. Like we don't want to be some sort of, you know, DFI referee either. So moving forward, you know, we're trying to figure out what the best model is to achieve that long-term vision. And, you know, if a token is the way we go there, then, yeah, that's something we'll look into doing for sure. Let's throw in another reader question here. So this is a question about your plans to expand beyond ETH to other blockchains.

Any thoughts on that? So if you can answer that, yeah, yeah, where does that fit into the product roadmap? It's definitely something we found out for sure, but, but, you know, maybe also include layer two in that. I suppose that's part of an ETH offshoot, but it is in a way it's another kind of blockchain. Yeah, I think like right now we're definitely focused on Ethereum. That's where we believe most of the defy activity will come from. But we're also, like, if we see a lot of activity going on other chains, you know, we definitely want to put aside our own beliefs in Defi and focus on our users. Like what, like we basically want to help users participate in decentralized finance.

And, you know, if Defi is going to be a multi-chain thing, then we'll definitely want to support people across chains. So far, we don't see that much, you know, not necessarily traction, but users, you know, asking us to integrate other chains, but that's something we're, you know, always keeping in mind. Is there anything of those chains, like anything kind of on your radar a little bit, like maybe in the Cosmos ecosystem or in the Pocodot ecosystem that you're not like, you haven't put to the front, but you're just monitoring and seeing how they emerge. Any interesting projects or ecosystems that you think are out there?

Yeah, well, I mean, at Pocodot, there's a few side chains that are, a parachines, sorry, that are looking to integrate the EVM. So it would be really interfacable with Ethereum, which I find super interesting. So when that is actually launched, we could see some traction there. Other projects. I mean, we do see traction from Binance Smart Chain. We haven't really researched on it. We don't have any opinion so far on that. But we do see some defyre projects, specifically in Asia, tackling that market.

So it's definitely worth it for us to take a look and see if there's possibilities there as well. You guys, there is so much left in this interview. We've only scratched the surface of the Zapper Rabbit Hole. But first, we have to take a break in the action to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show as possible. When you own crypto, what really matters is the security and ownership over your assets. Being a part of the bankless nation means having complete sovereignty over your crypto. The easiest way to do that is with a ledger hardware wallet.

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It's like at what point, at what point does a base chain get to the point where we can no longer really call it defy, right? So if Coinbase had an EVM on a Coinbase like maintained ledger, right? And anyone could develop on it. Maybe you don't require Coinbase's permission. Is that Defy? Is the Binance chain, defy, if it has hand-selected validators from Binance? Is Pocodot defy if it has governance in the hands of a small set of individuals? It's something that I personally like struggle with the definition of defy, which is why I think

David and I have talked about before. We like the term open finance a little bit better because it sort of embraces all of them. And sometimes when we and I like we go with the meme defy, right? Defy. Of course, but it's not always decentralized. How do you guys think about that? I can chime in here. I recognize that defy has become somewhat.

of a marketing term. But when I try to classify like what is defy, I think about am I 100% in control of my funds? Ideally, there should not be an admin key that can put my funds at risk. But then what I just said, I've clearly been forgiving with projects that are in the spectrum of moving towards being truly decentralized and getting rid of some of those admin keys. what else there? I think about, of course, there being no middlemen, just the usual stuff, like only interacting with smart contracts. And it's hard to ignore the fact that there's just, all the momentum is on Ethereum right now. But I think we as a team have been, we definitely have a philosophy on the team of trying to be open to new ideas and curious about what's being

built on other chains. And I think you guys have called them out already. We have, we've definitely been thinking and watching, I guess, like a Pocodot, Cosmos, Binance Smart Chain. I think Binance Smart Chain comes up the most from, you know, we have a lot of Zapper users in China and other parts of Asia. So we really try to listen to them. We do, every Friday we do like an open forum and folks can just ask Defi questions or give us feedback.

So that's some of the feedback we've gotten. I will say this, probably the lowest hanging fruit for us to, integrate another chain is Bitcoin. We could show the balance of Bitcoin in a Zapper portfolio, hopefully in the future. We've actually gotten a lot of good feedback from our community saying, yes, I would love to see Bitcoin, just whatever I've got in a wallet, because frankly, you can't do anything else with Bitcoin. You can just see it in that wallet if it's on the Bitcoin blockchain. So that would be really, I think, interesting. And I'm hoping that that's something that we can implement sooner versus, I think, the more challenging endeavor of incorporating other

smart contract blockchain. And that would be native Bitcoin on the Bitcoin blockchain rather than something like a wrapped BTC. That's right. That's what we're talking about. I even, I don't think that we're looking at this now, but like I've definitely thought before, you know, I mean maybe in the future for folks that are using like a centralized finance service, you know, something like a blockfi. If they've got, let's say, Bitcoin there, like maybe that's something we'll do. But like just I think like the key takeaway here is there is so much to support

right now just in Defi. It's so overwhelming. And I think I have a fresh perspective as someone also who's not a developer. I like look at what Seb and the team does. The team is. composed of seven engineers and then two of us are not engineers and i mean it's just overwhelming i don't know when seb or the other sleep it feels like we're just always having to support a new yield farming pool a new token um so yeah it's it's it's it's definitely exciting times and ryan the way that

you presented this question is like well is polka dot defy is is like binance chain defy Well, also, we have like that same question natively on Ethereum, right? Like, are NFTs defy? Because, like, who makes the legitimacy of an NFT, right? Realty, tokenize real estate on Ethereum. Is that defy? Like, you can use it as collateral, but the house is, like, secured by a company, right? So there's this big spectrum of things, of questions that how do we even answer this question?

How do we even ask the question to begin with? And when the question turns to, like, okay, if it's, the assumption, that I'm making that if it's close to defy and the power and because of the power of Ethereum, Ethereum can figure out how to latch onto it, right? Like Ethereum, the way that Anthony Cizano keeps on presenting theorem is as this like economic nexus, right? And Zapper is looking at the heart of that nexus and kind of growing out from there. It's like, okay, here's a token that everyone uses. Here's an app that everyone uses. Let's integrate that. And because of the power of Ethereum has the ability to grow its arms, grow its tentacles into every single other chain

via bridges. I think it's reasonable to like assume that at some point in the future it's going to be able to like you can query Ethereum to get a Bitcoin balance on the Bitcoin blockchain, right? And so you can actually go through Ethereum to Binance Chain to the Coinbase roll up to, you know, insert your bridge here. And you can use Ethereum as that economics hub to reach out to other blockchains and query data and create a zap around other blockchains that integrate with other blockchains as Ethereum becomes able to integrate with other blockchains. Because what Zapper really needs is data about other chains. And what Ethereum needs is data about other chains. And so if these teams that are working on building out these bridges do their job correctly, to me,

it seems to be that Zapper could just follow in the bridges that are built. I mean, I'm not very technical, but, but Seb, does that resonate with you? Does that sound about right? Yeah, I mean, it does in a sense that that's kind of like, you know, what kind of, you know, is happening with Zapor where it's started from a few, you know, tokens and then, you know, they got wrapped and then they are put in the pool and then that pool's put somewhere else. And, you know, it's just this, you know, it's just spreading. It's growing up in there. Right. Exactly. Exactly. I think you guys are going to be quite busy with layer two as well when that comes up on Ethereum. I am. All right. I want to get to another YouTube question that goes off a little bit of what you're saying. And the comment is first, I love Zapper, but only a tiny fraction of my assets are visible on there. Wish there was a way to add my own assets and farms. Maybe there is, and I just don't know. So I think that goes to what you were saying earlier, Defi Dad is like, you guys are just trying to keep up with everything that's going on, right? And add features for all of the, you know, the money leaggers that are going, that are happening.

but there's going to be some that you haven't quite got to yet. And is there any customization ability for users coming down the pike? How do you think about that use case? Yeah, we're actually starting to implement some, you know, a process where, you know, users will be able to add their own tokens. As for like farms, it's always a bit tricky because, you know, we don't want to add stuff that could potentially be dangerous or not vetted. Like we've seen so many, you know, rug pulls.

And, you know, we're always very careful with, you know, the things we add support for on Zapper. Like, Seth, like something like sushi when it came out. Like, did you add it right away or did you not? So we added the ability to like view your balances. But transacting, like we didn't add it yet. So that's kind of like we had, you know, there's two sides. One is just being able to view their balance. So on that side, we're much less, you know, strict on whatever we add.

On the transaction side, like we don't want people, you know, putting money into something that might be, you know, rub pulled in the future. So we're very careful, you know, with what we had. Like for yield farming, you know, most of the contracts were all the same, you know, they're reused smart contracts. So a lot of these, you know, farms was. they were safe to add because we knew, you know, those smart contracts and, you know, they were very tested. A lot of money came through them. So, yeah, we felt safe to add those.

So we got another question from Callum from the YouTube. Thanks, Callum, for the question. What are your thoughts on the Infura outage and how did this affect Zapper? Any thoughts on solutions to these kinds of issues? Yeah, we did have a bit of down to. time because of the inferior outage. But we right now we have a strategy where we use, you know, multiple node as a service providers. So the first is, you know, inferior and then we've been using as a fallback pocket, which is a decentralized node

infrastructure protocol. And in the future, we see, you know, much more of that, you know, being brought forward as a solution. Now the thing is like these, these, decentralized protocols aren't at the point where it's say as fast or reliable as in inferior like from Zapper's standpoint our goal is to have you know balances load as fast as possible so that always you know factors in the decision to choose the right infrastructure so right now yeah our strategy is you know we have some

fallbacks to different nodes but long term we do want to align with more of a decentralized you know node infrastructure Yeah, so I guess a follow-up on that, a lot of, there's been a lot of, I guess, FUD out there about DFI being centralized on in Fura. What's your take on that in general? Are there many node providers out there that folks like your team can use, or is it a legitimate problem? I think it used to be much more of a problem, but right now I think, you know,

There's a lot of options out there. There's Infira, there's Alchemy, there's QuickNode. It's also much easier to run your own node. And there's more decentralized projects, popping. And potentially this inferior outage will just create more market pressure into creating these decentralized products. So I really don't see it as big of a problem

as it used to. It's definitely like it is something we have. have to look into it because yeah a lot of you know products went down during the unfair outage um but yeah hopefully it does create this this market pressure so with it go ahead dad right oh just seeing there's always room for improvement and uh you know i think that was a a bit of a scary thing yesterday i actually fortunately wasn't awake i like woke up and it had already been resolved but I think that goes back to what's the term that I've heard you guys use it on your podcast like anti-fragile anti-fragileity yeah and so like anything that doesn't kill us makes us stronger and I

I do feel like that was yet another thing that is not something to like brush under the rug but also at the same time like we're still here yeah I guess for folks that don't know about it just real quick, right? So Infura provides a lot of, like, node services, Ethereum node services to applications, but also wallets, right? And they are a consensus project. And famously, an attack vector from bitcoins who are like, oh, Ethereums don't run their own nodes, then that's bad, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right, right. And Metamask runs on it, and they had an outage because they were using a old version of an Ethereum client, Gath, essentially. How long was that outage?

Just a couple of hours. And it's sort of sent Defy into some tumult yesterday. So anyway, that's the DLDR on that. That also, too, like those criticisms normally come from people who push you to put your crypto on Cracken, block by. Oh, yes. Critical of all the experimentation. And yet, you know, there's just so many folks.

that are so reliant upon that centralized exchange infrastructure. And I just don't get it. You know, we should all be, we should all be pushing for these new innovations. And thank God for the Ethereum community, continually pushing the envelope on this. So we have another question. I want to ask questions about Ethereum staking in Phase Zero,

but first I want to get to this question from YouTube is another idea, totally D-Gen perhaps, but would you allow Debs to create strategies as ZEZE? Perhaps you can have a list of Zapper, a list which the Zapper team deems as safe and which ones are like wild. And that kind of makes me think of how like the Dune Analytics boards have like community generated boards that you can go and check out. And that's a great way to just like put the ball in the community's court and saying like here, here's a Dune Analytics board that I use. Maybe you kind of find it useful too. Maybe that's something that you guys are thinking about.

Like here's a zap that I use and maybe you can also use it as well. I'll just put that that's such a cool idea and we're aligned with trying to like make it easier for folks to build Zaps and then in in some way or another I guess you could like maybe rank them like you were saying but said yeah what and by the way have you guys ever used that program if if this then that it kind of reminds me of that idea right like where you have these modules you just kind of string together go ahead Zab no yeah that's that's like a great idea and something we're really, you know, looking into building is like ZAPs have a bunch of, you know, different blocks that, you know, are consistent across all our ZAPs and people could just use pick and choose from those and, you know, create a new ZAP. And then essentially the community could create all the, you know, community generated ZAPs and rank them. There could be like a safety metric or you could see the volume that went through. So yeah, that's definitely something we're looking into.

Okay, so with phase zero and the beacon chain up and running in the deposit contract here, is there anything coming out of the Zapper camp to kind of help facilitate this? So so far, there aren't any plans. We're still, our roadmap is filled with new protocol integrations, you know, these low-hanging fruits. But, I mean, if it's something that's heavily requested by users, we'll definitely you know, look into it. That's kind of our roadmap basically changes all the time. You know, sometimes I don't even know what I'm going to work on the next week or even like just tomorrow,

right? Something can happen maybe. Okay, let's add this one then. So yeah, we always keep a pulse on, you know, what our users are asking. I think that's a week ago. Whenever the deposit contract launched, I think someone on the team was looking into like how could we potentially, in the future show, like, let's say you deposit into that, the beacon chain contract. The talk was, could we show that and support that? So I think, as Seb was saying, like, we're normally just reacting as quickly as possible, but this seems like a pretty big deal. I mean, I would anticipate what the first deadline is December 1st, and then the other one's

the 24th of December. So, yeah, if, if, you. folks are interested or just want to like voice their support of that which i'm sure there's like unending support for this uh you can hop into our discord group uh if you just go to zapper dot five there's a link to go there uh also too don't be afraid to i'm going to regret this don't be afraid to dm me on twitter or discourse we always pass that a lot and just to clarify you can see your staked balances in the the staking contract nice what else that's last I didn't know that either.

Yeah, so there's so many things going on, you know. Yeah, we have that. Good job, team. Is there anything about, like, the ETH II roadmap that you guys are thinking about and, like, that's impacting the development of Zapper? Like, how does ETH2 impact what you guys are doing at Zapper? Yeah, that's such a good question. And honestly, I have, like, I don't have, you know, any, like, immediate ideas about how we'll do it.

There's so many, you know, there's a lot of, you know, know, it's very nebulous, I think, a lot of doves. And as we move more towards that, we'll definitely look into how Zapper interfaces with ETH2. So this is a question from Jag Tapper, who is asking what the long-term game plan of roadmap is for Zapper says Zapping is super convenient, but I'm sure you've got more ideas in mind. I feel like we've been talking about a lot of those ideas. So like take that question and also reframe it a little bit. We've been talking about Zapper as almost like a Netscape, right, to all of these money Legos. And there was this, this moment in the early internet, people call it the Netscape moment, right? Where Netscape came out and people

used it and they saw, wow, there's this entirely new digital world that's opening before us. And Netscape was sort of the browser into that. When do you think, is Defi going to ever have its net scape moment? And if it does, how is Zappar going to be involved? What does it, what's it going to require to take Defi mainstream? Hey guys. By the way, I've got to hop over to Yield TV. I just wanted to quickly say thank you. Seb's going to keep going here. And Seb's the person you need to talk with more. He's got all the answers. But just thank you so much. This was really fun. And I always appreciate just what you guys are doing at bankless. It's the Lord's work in D.Fi.

Thanks, D.I. Dad. I'll catch you guys. See later. Thanks for being here, Dad. Yeah, Ryan, that's such an interesting question because, like, it's hard to say, like, if Dify is going to have a Netscape moment like this, oh my God, like this is amazing. Like what we've seen so far is, you know, there's these moments in DFI where, you know, Like the yield farming craze, that was like a huge moment for Defi where a lot of people came in and, you know, obviously some left, but a lot of them stayed. And, you know, what, you know, will that next big thing for Defi be? Will it be like this this Netscape type moment? I talk a lot about Defi to my friends and see, you know, how Defi can like tap into the market, which is, you know, exterior to crypto.

Because if you just look at Defi, right, it's still, you know, digging within the crypto market. I don't see often people, you know, completely out of context of crypto hopping directly into defy. It's all crypto-native still, right? Exactly, exactly. So, like, do you refer as that Netscape moment where, you know, it goes outside of the crypto-native space?

Yeah, a bit more. I think that's the idea that there's this one moment where the world just becomes captured by Defi and crypto and floods in. Yeah, I Man, that's that's such a good question Like I think we still have Ways to go to have Non-Crypto people like I think

crypto still needs to be more Perhaps like just In the back of people's minds Like I think the current economic situation has brought a lot of that But like I kind of lost my train of thought there but yeah It's getting to the point, though, with Zapper that Normies can use this stuff, right?

So, like, are your friends able, your non-Crypto friends, are they able to use Zapper? But you're saying, like, they just don't have the use cases that would just draw them into it at this point in time. But, or is the U.X still a little too difficult? Yeah, I think it's a lot on, like, the information site. Like, everyone, you know, can click around the buttons on Zapper. but like if the information makes absolutely no sense of them you know they're not going to go through there's a lot of like context to bring and you know a lot of financial education because you look at a lot of people using defy a lot of them have a good background or some sort of background in finance

but as defy is making it being easier and easier to use you know more of this is being abstracted away and like there's kind of i see it in two ways like one is you know will defy just reduce the information asymmetry and the asymmetry and opportunity and more people will use it or will a lot of defy just be completely abstracted away kind of more like a

really easy to use banking app where you put money and then it earns yield for you. So it's going to be interesting what ways it's going to play in. Like at Zapper, our thesis is always like we're not focusing on the market outside of Zapper. Like we see, you know, Defi as this circle that keeps expanding and all the, where we want to

be is at the edges because that's where we, you know, we acquire new users and new customers. And we're focused on, you know, that ever expanding, you know, circle and looking to add features just at the edges of that circle. And eventually we see that, you know, blowing into, you know, much more, you know, mainstream audience. reminds me a lot of our conversation with Andre from from wire and protocol and how he said like I don't have a long-term plan I'm just building the next great feature and that's going to keep me busy and as long as I'm doing that we're making progress so it sounds similar maybe we're all in that camp well how can you have a long-term plan in defy in crypto right it's like we no one saw yield

farming coming and there's going to be something new in two months and no one's going to see that coming either it just feels like that that Wallace and grommick gift where we're we're I think Gromit is the on the train, he's just throwing the tracks in front of him, right? Yeah. As he's doing forward. Yeah, that's definitely a day at the office at Zapper. Well, I mean, being able to be nimble and move quickly is really, really advantageous.

And that's definitely what we see coming out of the Zapper camp. Seb, are you guys hiring? How can people help lay the tracks for Zapper? Yeah. I mean, we're always open to get new people on board that, you know, believe in Defi and our vision of Zapper of making Defi easy to use. So yeah, I mean, we always have positions open, whatever the position. Like we kind of have the philosophy where you come into Zapper and you create your own role. And yeah, very open. Very cool. And so last question just to wrap

this up, how can the Bankless Nation help Zapper? Like what can Zapper do for the bankless nation and what can the bankless nation do for Zapper? Yeah, I mean, happy to get any type of feedback if there's things that Zapper is missing or types of functionalities. Happy to get any feedback. You can, you know, hop in our Discord. We're pretty active there. And, you know, we have a really fast development cycle. So happy to build anything that the Bankless Nation requests. All right. Cool. Zeb, thank you for being here. And also thanks to defy dad who had to hop off. So yeah, guys, check them out. Zapper.comi, load up your wallets. what it shows you. I always like to tell the story of like when I loaded up my Zapper wallet,

I found like $25 of liquidity in uniswap that I forgot that I had been supplying. And so I was like, nice. I found some found some money in a pocket that I didn't know I had. So that's always always a fun time. So Seb, thanks for being here. Yeah, thank you very much. It was great. Thank you, David. Thank you, Ryan. Appreciate it. Take care. All right. Bye, guys. Bye.