Bankless - AMA with Chris Spadafora, Founder of BadgerDAO

Episode Date: March 25, 2021

Chris Spadafora is the Founder of BadgerDAO, a decentralized protocol that promotes the use of tokenized BTC in DeFi. Like all our AMAs, the interview is live and incorporates questions from our Inner Circle Discord and live YouTube Chat. These are hosted the 2nd and 4th Wednesday each month, so mark your calendars, tune in, and ask questions! ----- 🚀 SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER: http://bankless.substack.com/​​​ 🎙️ SUBSCRIBE TO PODCAST: http://podcast.banklesshq.com/​​​  ----- GO BANKLESS WITH THESE SPONSOR TOOLS: ⭐️ AAVE - BORROW OR LEND YOUR ASSETS https://bankless.cc/aave  🚀 GEMINI - MOST TRUSTED EXCHANGE AND ONRAMP https://bankless.cc/go-gemini  💳 MONOLITH - GET THE HOLY GRAIL OF BANKLESS VISA CARDS https://bankless.cc/monolith  📱 DHARMA - MOBILE ONRAMP DIRECTLY INTO DEFI https://bankless.cc/dharma  ------ Resources: BadgerDAO https://badger.finance/  Chris on Twitter https://twitter.com/spadaboom1?s=20  ----- THIS WEEK ON BANKLESS: 🦄 Uniswap V3 Alpha Leak (3/23): https://youtu.be/TRJYs7v7gYo  🎙️ ULTRA SOUND MONEY (3/22): https://shows.banklesshq.com/p/-ultra-sound-money-justin-drake  🗞️ Weekly Rollup (3/19): https://shows.banklesshq.com/p/-rollup-elon-musk-nft-song-stimulus  🧢 Weekly Action Recap (3/20): https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/another-1400-weekly-recap  ✏️ Ultra Sound Money (3/15): https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/eth-is-ultra-sound-money-market-monday  🐦 Follow Bankless on Twitter: https://twitter.com/BanklessHQ  ----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/bankless-disclosures 

Badger, Chris from Badger, who is a co-founder of Badger. We have an opportunity as the bankless community to ask Chris anything. He's representing the Badger Project here today. This was brought up by community votes. So we asked who you wanted to have on the next AMA. And there was a resounding, you want Badger. So we are bringing Badger to you. Just some ground rules on this community.

Ask me anything. Of course, you can ask any question you want. David and I will try to field those. questions to Chris. You can ask those questions in YouTube. We are broadcasting this live right now. Also in the Discord bankless members community, we will prioritize questions there. We do ask me anything, the second and fourth Wednesday now of the month. So this is coming at you live on a Wednesday, 12 p.m. Eastern time, 9 a.m. Pacific time. This is your time to ask questions of these fantastic projects. David, can you talk about why we are having Badger for this conversation? There's a theme here

that I think is really important. Yeah, Badger by popular demand coming into the bankless live stream. Just the amount of energy and community excitement around this project has really just blown everyone's minds. And what Badger is really trying to do is to generate BTC infrastructure in Ethereum's defy. So just providing a suite of financial tools around BADGERS, but on Ethereum. And so it's trying to bridge the communities, which is always an ambitious endeavor, which is always, in my opinion, a noble endeavor to help bridge the gap between the BTC, the asset, and the Ethereum economy. And so we're going to dive into what these suite of tools looks like and how they can help Bitcoiners get their Bitcoin expressed into Defi.

And this project has just, like I said, just generated a ton of community hype and excitement. And so by popular demand, we have Badger Dow here on the bankless AMA. Absolutely. I think there's a question in the minds of investors and everyone in the crypto community. Is it going to be Bitcoin on or is Defi going to come to Bitcoin? I've had some recent debates around this too. And I'm super curious to hear what Chris from Badger says. We are going to come back with Chris in a minute. But first, we want to tell you about the sponsors that made this episode possible. Gemini is the world's most trusted cryptocurrency exchange. I've been a customer of Gemini since I first got into crypto in 2017,

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more powerful. With AVE, you can leverage the full power of defy money Legos, yield, and composability all in one application. On AVE, there are a ton of assets that you can deposit in order to gain yield, and all of those same assets can also be borrowed from the protocol if you have deposited collateral. Here you can see me getting a 200 USDC loan against my portfolio of a number of different defy tokens and ETH. I'll choose a variable interest rate because it's a lower rate than the stable interest rate option, but I could choose the stable interest rate option if I wanted to lock that interest rate in permanently. One of AVE's V2 features is the ability to swap collateral without having to withdraw your assets, trade them on uniswap, and then deposit them back into AVE.

AVE does all of this for you, all in one seamless transaction, so you don't have to repay loans in order to change the collateral you have backing them. Check out the power of AVE at AVE.com. That's AAAVE.com. bankless community. I'm super excited to have Chris Spadaforah, who is on the founding team of Badger Dow on this Ask Me Anything. Chris, how are you doing today? I am great, Ryan. How are you? I'm doing great. Look, you guys are putting out a lot of energy these days around this theme of Bitcoin on Define. It's super exciting. But I think we should maybe start with the Y for the community. Could you explain Badger Dow and start with the Y? So why does Badger Dow? So why does Babiard? Adger exists. What is the mission here? The mission's straightforward, right? It's to build products

and infrastructure necessary to bring what I and many of the people in the community believe to be the best collateral ever invented into open finance and to really accelerate how it gets there and when it's there, give it utility. Because there's a, you know, the key statistic to think about is 0.7% of all Bitcoin is is on other chains. and is mostly obviously on Ethereum, but that's how little is actually been wrapped or bridged or whatever you want to call it. So that's our mission, but we don't want to just do it like a normal company or whatever. You know, we're completely community owned and we're trying to rewrite the playbook on how businesses go to market, how businesses operate, how businesses operate, how these open communities or collectives actually work to produce, you know, revenue and manage hundreds of millions of dollars and do it in a descent.

way, right? Like that was a big part of our mission is how do we push forward this idea of Dow's and how DAOs could be self-sustaining businesses again with, you know, substantial amount of revenue and profit, not just, you know, a way for someone or a group of people to kind of structure themselves and do certain things. It's like, let's use the power of the technology that we can build today and have a community run and own it. So that those are some of the things that really tie Badger together and share the value and beliefs of the community. So Chris, let's talk about the genesis of Badger. Where did this initial idea come from and talk about the decision to focus on actual infrastructure on other change rather than doing something like WBT or RenBTC?

Yeah, so, you know, it's been, shoot, it's already April now. So it's been almost a year since we started thinking about it, me and a few friends. I've been in the space about eight years, got into Bitcoin relatively early, was in Ethereum. launch and I've always just kind of been on all sides of the fence, right? Like I've always perceived Bitcoin and Ethereum to be completely separate and different things. And I never was a fan of, you know, a lot of the maximalism that that caused a riff, right? I always looked at it as, you know, we're one industry trying to push everything forward and we need to have each other's backs and we need to collaborate to get there. So it started with, you know, how do we build more

financial, decentralized financial products to put the Bitcoin to work, right? Put Bitcoin to work. That was really where it started. And when it started, I actually spent quite a bit of time digging into a lot of the other alternatives that are, call them side chains to Bitcoin, right? You know, the liquids, the RSKs, the things along those lines. And the fact of the matter is then and now, you know, the infrastructure, the development community, the interoperability and composability, none of that stuff, the tooling, none of that

stuff really exists. And it was a very quick, hey, but it's not going to make any sense to build it here. And we're going to focus on building it on Ethereum and accelerate how we can, how we can take that to market. So that was kind of the earliest stages. And around then, too, was when we started to see, you know, the yearns and some of these projects that were open communities actually bring products to market that had great product market fit, generate millions of dollars in revenue and operate in a way where it was like, you know, open. Anyone can come. Anyone can collaborate.

Anyone can get involved and anyone can build some really cool stuff with the developer-first mentality of the community or organization. And that was when a lot of light bulbs went off for us and we said, you know what? This is the path. We can rewrite the playbook on how businesses get to market. We're going to focus exclusively on how do you build the products and infrastructure to get Bitcoin there and bring utility to it. And we're going to build these products before we launch, at least what we felt were good products to start with, which were our vaults, which are similar to yearn vaults, except dedicated to tokenize Bitcoin.

So we optimize the yield that users can get out of certain Bitcoin LP positions. And then what our first attempt was at creating a synthetic Bitcoin, which is Dig, which is similar to Ampleforth, except intended to peg to the price of Bitcoin. And let's go to market with these. and let's do it the right way, right? Let's be transparent with who we are. Let's make sure everything was audited. Let's engage other communities as we prepare for launch. Let's have the communities make the decisions on day zero well before launch.

So when we got the, you know, the Discord started in September of last year, you know, it was really me and a few developers kind of putting stuff out. Hey, this is the plan. This is the token structure. Here are the products. Here's the co-bay. Here's all these things. like let's figure out how we actually get it there and get it to the finish line.

It took almost three months. But excitingly enough, a lot of those individuals that got involved then were today. They're long-term contributors at Badger. They work with Badger full-time. And they've been able to get us from where we were to where we are. And there's 60 people now working on the protocol almost four months after launch, which is pretty mind-blowing. And, you know, our product, you know, our Vault product,

which is our core product, you know, holds about 1.2 billion worth of Bitcoin, almost, you know, 20% of all the tokenized Bitcoin on Ethereum. So for us, it was important to, you know, get off the ground with the right products, but also with the right community. Because if we were going to try and rewrite this playbook, we needed people that shared in the same values and beliefs. Because if it was, if you didn't, the longevity and the sustainability and the ability to have people actually work and dedicate their time, effort, resources on the protocol, it would have been next impossible to do. So what we did was, we said, okay, we're going to look across Ethereum and collect, and we ended up collecting 32,000 addresses and said people that have done these 19 actions

that we felt aligned with like kind of three pillars of our values. One, they participated in decentralized governance. So if they voted on sushi or harvest or yearn or one hive or things along those lines. If they use tokenized Bitcoin in D-Fi, so you provided liquidity on Curve, Balancer, sushi, Uniswap, you lent it out on compound, maker, whatever it may be. And then finally, if you contributed to public goods. And we were the first group to AirDrop, anyone that contributed to Gitcoin through rounds one through seven. And that was really like, we felt like those people would be the exact type of people that really help us. get to where we needed to be. And that was really how we launched. And we said, hey, you know,

anyone that's done these actions come claim some badger. And by the way, here's our vault product. And it just so happens to have, I don't know, a billion percent EPI. So why don't you get involved? And that was that was the start of it. I think you guys have crushed it on like building out your community. And there's almost a playbook there. And we've got already some some questions coming in from the bankless community on that playbook. And we'll definitely get to that. want to camp on this this question you know going back to the why so uh why is bitcoin on defy important you said because look it's a it's a over a trillion dollar asset right now and only a small percentage of it is actually being put to work we put out a post last week Lucas campbell from our team

put it put out a case for like the the trillion dollar opportunity for tokenized bitcoin you specifically talking about uh ren btc and that's the opportunity it's either all all of this bitcoin ends up just being you know, held forever, or it's being put in productive use in kind of the crypto banking ecosystem, or it's in defy, right? And you guys are saying it should be in defy. That post, though, did Chris trigger a back and forth I had with Anthony Pompeiano, where, you know, he was very much of the like mindset of, no, not Bitcoin on defy, right? What we're going to have is defy and Bitcoin. And I want to get your take on that because I've got sort of my preconception. I kind of compared it to like, yeah, but that's really hard because you're essentially

trying to program on a, you know, TI83 calculator when you have like a full PC with a full stack and a virtual machine and everything else. But he has kind of a different take on that. I'm curious to get your take. So having explored what it would take, I assume you did explore this to build defy on Bitcoin. You came back to Ethereum. what's your take on that whole debate? My take on the debate is there's no right or wrong answer.

So do I think there will be financial services on the Bitcoin network? Yes. Do I think those applications and the ability to put your Bitcoin to work on the native Bitcoin network are going to happen anytime soon? No. I think they're quite a bit of ways away because of a lot of the things that I mentioned earlier, right? the developers, the tooling, the composability, the ease of usability. You know, think about how long it took Ethereum to get to the point where, you know, with a browser extension, you can pop to different applications and start putting a variety

of different assets to work and then have, you know, liquidity, deep liquidity in markets and a variety of different players and products. And like, it's an ecosystem. That in itself is going to take years to be. build on Bitcoin. And because of that, I just don't see, and I don't think that's a make, oh, okay, guess what? Like, you know, Bitcoin's never going to be able to catch up to ether or other chains. I don't think that's going to be the case either because so much of the asset class is there already, right? And you have, like I said, 0.7%. Do I think 100% of Bitcoin is

going to be moved? Of course not. Do I think 30 or 30%? 40% is going to be moved? I sure do. Now, what about the other 60, 70%? I think, you know, there's going to be a whole segment of the market that doesn't give a shit about that and just holds it, right? I think there's going to be a good segment of the market that wants to maintain some of the security posture that comes with the Bitcoin network. You know, a lot of, and I saw, I saw Anthony talking about a few folks like sovereign or whatever. And, you know, I know the sovereign crew, they're good crew. They're trying, you know, they're doing their thing. But at the end of the day, you know, if we're going to call something what it is,

not speaking about sovereign in general, but just more of this concept, anything that could potentially be built on Bitcoin today is not technically being built on Bitcoin. And if you like RSK is a good example, like all these different chains, right? Like it's not technically on Bitcoin. There's kind of like this multi-sig-ish thing happening outside of that. So like the whole argument around decentralization. and security for Bitcoin in particular is somewhat removed immediately because now you have a level of centralization that has to happen to facilitate these types of applications and services.

But my take is, and Badgers, in my opinion, as a community member of Badger, is, you know, we are chain agnostic. You know, we believe Bitcoin is going to be on a variety of chains, including being used on the Bitcoin network, and we'd love to support that when the time comes. but today the majority of it's being used on Ethereum and we're starting to see other chains really start to accelerate even just yesterday we launched vaults on finance smart chain and we're intending to launch only air two solutions and a variety of others down the road but you know that's our take Ryan yeah that's a good take you know the interesting thing here is

I think there's something in the thesis for everyone right if you are a bitcoiner if you're a Bitcoin proponent you love the asset itself you want Bitcoin to be propagated everywhere. You want it in crypto banks, you want it to defy, you want it everywhere. And if you're maybe a defy maximus, somebody who believes in kind of the bankless vision, then you want all of those assets to come into defy, right? It, Ethereum serves as a gravity well for all of the world's assets, as we've said so often before. So there's kind of a win in both places. But I think this maybe brings the first bankless, like bankless consumer question here. Somebody from the community asks a question about the Binance smart chain, actually.

Because, and I think this is a deep question. So let me pose it. This is from Graham. Why are so many projects porting to Binance Smart Chain? Where to centralized and controlled by 21 validators. Is it for fear of being forked there? Do you believe in the chain? Is it user choice? I think he's presenting that question to all projects, but also to you specifically. Why a Binance smart chain. So two reasons. One, and no particular order. That is by far the chain with the most Bitcoin being put to use outside of Ethereum. And we care about Bitcoin, right? And we care about utility for Bitcoin regardless of where it is and making it easy for anybody and everybody to put that Bitcoin to work. Two, well, actually there's three reasons. Two, it's driven by the

users, right? I couldn't even tell you how much user demand was coming around finance smart chain and how many users were already using by me. And we saw that even just with our launch yesterday. We launched with interest bearing ETH assets. So like we didn't say, hey, bring Badger and dig. We said, no, you got to bring the staked version of Badger and the staked version of Dig cross-chain and then LP that and then deposit in our vault, right? So think about all those loops. We still had $25 million cross-chain in under 24 hours, right? Like that tells you a lot.

And obviously, the APIs are high and, you know, all those types of things happen. But, you know, the proofs in the pudding as it relates to the user demand. And then I'd say the third piece is ease of deployment, right? Like it's, it's, it was not hard for us to really ramp up to deploy our infrastructure over there from the graphs, the keepers, the actual contracts, the multi-sig infrastructure. Like, you know, and then for users to just kind of plug in with their metamask and do what they've got to do, there's such little friction now. And, and I believe we're going to see a lot of, we're going to see a lot of projects kind of flocking, not flocking, like, eats our home. Like, there's no doubt about. about that, right? Like, we're not at all. And you probably could tell them Canadian with the way that I said that. But nonetheless, like, there's no doubt, right? We're building a ton on Ethereum. And like, Ethereum's our focus. At the same time, we got to, we got to provide utility where Bitcoin's being put to work. And we got to, we got to fulfill what the users want. And we're users spending their time as well. So that's how we look at it. I'm not concerned around forks and all this type of crap. For the core team, at least, in thinking about the product, those are.

the things that we thought about. So, Chris, I want to dive deeper into that because you said something that I want to tap into, which is that, you know, ETH is the home. Oh, am I muted? No, you're not muted. No, I'm not muted. Not to you guys on OBS. And so you guys, you said, Heath is your home. And so I want to, and then I also, I am personally, I have skepticism as like the long-term usage of something like Binance smart chain outside of a bull market, right? Like, you know, there's plenty of usage to go around during bull markets, but during bear markets does that usage, do those users and liquidity stick around. And so I kind of want to dive deeper into what you mean by when you say ETH is your home, right? Because many, many assets become issued on Ethereum first and then find their ways to other blockchains, buying a smart chain, like any other EVM compatible ones.

And because they're compatible with Ethereum, these assets can float around the whole crypto, world, right? Not just Ethereum, but they were issued on Ethereum first and foremost. And so that ultimately settles to Ethereum. So when you say, like, Ethereum is your home, dive into that a little bit more. Like, what does Badger Dow have on Ethereum that perhaps maybe you can't replicate anywhere else? Or is, is it actually Badger Dow really just a nebulous thing that exists wherever the users go? How does that work out? Well, from a practical perspective, Ethereum's are home because that's where governance lives and that's not going to change, right? And that's obviously specific to our project because our project runs as a community

governed initiative. So that's, you know, from a practical standpoint. From a not so practical standpoint, when we're building and integrating with different protocols and looking, there's so much work to be done on Ethereum, like just enormous amount of work. And even if you look at, you know, what we've brought to Binance and what we're going to be bringing to other chains, it's really like what we brought to Ethereum a few months when we first launched, which is like, you know, here yield optimization vaults, here's the strategies that they run. You know, these are the types of things that it can do. And that was the extent of it.

And when we look to bring things to market, we're most likely going to be bringing those things to market first on Ethereum and spending the time to really develop them there and then looking to how can we do it, but also do it in a way where it's not a huge technical lift for us. That's a big thing, right? Like you guys know, and a lot of people know, finding talents not hard, not easy. You know, we've been lucky enough without doing a job posting

to have 60 people working with us, but neither here nor there, we're stretched ridiculously thin on all the things that we're working on. But there is still so much of an opportunity to continue to be like, the home for Bitcoin on ETH. And there's so much more to the stack and to the utility tool belt that we need to build. Because for Badger today, and I've said this so many times publicly,

but I'll say it again, you know, Badger accelerated because they were the best, you know, best farm, best APY for Bitcoin, right, in December and January and so forth. But, you know, again, when you look at the bull market, you know, that could sustain for a period of time, especially when the majority of ours, like many others, yield is subsidized with token distribution and rewards, right? Like that is not sustainable at all, like nowhere close to sustainable. So for us, there's still so much utility that we need to build and we're going to be building on ETH and potentially looking to how we bring that to other chains down the road. But that's, you know, that's what we think about when we think about ETH being our home.

And, you know, just a quick piece around you. like where do I think utility can come for us and for projects like us. You know, it's interesting what's happened. We've, you know, we've collected so much capital like billions of dollars in Bitcoin and a few other like our native assets, Badger and so forth, that, you know, we can create a, you know, use the synthetic layer on top to create a variety of other assets that unlock the liquidity and create capital efficiency in those positions, eventually becoming the best. best placed on lock liquidity in any BTC LP position.

Because that's where the majority of our deposits are. They're either curve Ops, uniswap LPs, or Sushi LPs. So for us, that's our focus around utility so that people can further participate in DFI. And I think that's going to happen a lot. Like a lot of the protocols today are going to be more of the primitive protocols tomorrow. And it's like how do you kind of transition to be more on the bottom of the stack than on the top of the stack? Just one last one on this because I think this is all part. of the philosophy of the project and it's important. Then we want to go into quickly the

components of Badger Dow and make sure everyone listening understands those and there's some other of your questions coming in. But I want to ask this, Chris, because I think this dovetails with what Graham was asking is, do you worry that we lose the definition of Defi somewhere in here? So I think that's what really Graham is kind of getting at, right? So when we call something Defi and it's really on the Binance Smart Chain that's managed by 21 validators and looks a lot more like a crypto bank. Is it really defy? And maybe the answer to that question is, what's the definition of defy? It's another question, right? So that's the question I'm going to ask you, Chris, is what is your definition of defy? My definition of defy is a financial

system that's predicated on peer-to-peer transactions. When I think about decentralized finance, I think about that. I think about removing the bloat of the middleman. I think about people being able to own and control their own assets and having the ability to participate in finance like they've never been able to participate before, but because of the value proposition on both sides of the fence, they're actually interacting with other individuals

that are doing the exact same thing. And that's kind of how I think about the future financial systems that we're building today, but are going to obviously evolve tremendously in the future. And so do you think that definition for Defi extends to something like the Binance Smart Chain? I think so. I think so, you know, if we go with that definition, you know, if someone's, you know, LPing on an AMM on Binance Smart Chain and they're making a trade, they're trading with someone on the other side, right?

you know, they're using something like Badger. It's not like Badger has control of those assets. So it's just a set of smart contracts in the end of the day. So, yeah, that's, I think it does. You know, again, it kind of goes back to. And I know, you know, there's been some controversial things that you guys have gotten into with a few folks online over the years. But, you know, just in general, you know,

I'm just never been a fan of any type of purist type perspective on things because I think it moves the needle away from needed innovation regardless, right? Like, this is so ridiculously early anyways. Like, what it is today won't be what it's like tomorrow, but like an example. Okay, here's an example. If Binance smart chain didn't come with such a powerful push in the last three months, it wouldn't have accelerated something like multi-chain that the NE swap team and Andre collaborated on building to be.

pushed to the forefront as fast as it had. They were looking at, you know, getting something off the ground six to nine months from now. But because of that, we're starting to see all these tools and tooling being pushed to the forefront. And the fact that we were able to, through messaging, through community engagement, obviously through incentivization, you know, have $25 million in 24 hours move across chains. Like, think back to like 2017 when everyone's going balls crazy about like atomic swap stuff and shit like that right like things are actually happening where it's going and the centralization of where it's going and all these types of things in my opinion don't matter nearly as much because of what's actually happening and how that's going to be what you know

what pushes what's going to happen forward so much more you know so much faster yeah i think look i think the the bankless take on that on this uh whole thing is um what what you're saying is true like The adoption of Binance smart chain is actually good because it pushes Ethereum to scale more. I also think we probably come at this with different perspectives, right? So Badger Dow, you're all about optimizing yield for Bitcoin. That's super important. That's what the whole project is about. Bankless has to have a little bit of a viewpoint perspective that is consistent with our philosophy and our name,

which is we're trying to remove the banks. What we don't want, Chris, is to create a worse system than the one we came from, right? It's like it's protocols, not kings, right? And so where we see points for centralization for more banker control, that's where we're less likely to hit the accelerator and more likely to hit on the brakes. But I agree, like this is all going to evolve in the way that it needs to. And ultimately, ultimately, if there's, The thesis is right that the most decentralized protocols, most credibly neutral protocols, will win, then none of this matters. It'll just play out in the way that it's playing out.

Let's get to the components of Badger Dow now, because you referenced them earlier. I want to make sure folks understand this. And I'm actually, Chris, going to pull up the Badger Dow app to explain this. But can you tell us about this first, this first component that I think is important, which is set. What does Set do? So sets are named for our vaults. So the reason why we called them sets was because that's actually the home of a badger. So there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of meming that happens in our business with them,

including the fact that, you know, the Honey Badger is our lead thing. But nonetheless, it's called a set because it's the home, but they are actually individual vaults. So if you were to Ryan, click on any one of these vaults, it will give you the ability to potentially deposit or if you click that button, excuse me, that button in the top right corner of each of those, you could withdraw. So each of these have different strategies. And as you can tell, each of them also have a different return on investment over an annualized basis. And then if you see to the far right, that's the number, the value in capital that's been deposited in that vault that's earning that specific interest rate. Now, if you were to connect your wallet and you were a badger,

you would see the ability to claim Badger and Dig. So every two hours, there's a cycle that releases Badger and Dig to users. And if you click on that, you'll see the breakdown on where the rewards are coming from, from that specific Vault strategy. And when you see something like Badger Awards and Dig rewards, those rewards would be claimable through the app, which goes to kind of what I spoke about before, right? The organic yield and the lack of sustainability in inflating API

or subsidizing, excuse me, not inflating, EPY for the purpose of providing a high interest rate for users. So this is essentially how it works. If you're looking at some of these, RAPBTC, wrap ether, you would bring, you would go to a sushi swap, you'd deposit WBTC, ETH into their liquidity pool, which is one of the largest liquidity pools for those assets. And then you would bring that LP token to us. So what do we do? You deposit it in the vault. everything's non-custodial, everything's smart contract-based. We have active strategies on the back end for those vaults.

Of course, everything's transparent. You can look at the vault contracts, see all the transactions. You can prove exactly that, you know, there's 1,307 Bitcoins in that specific vault. But for that vault strategy and why $147 million is in that vault is because we optimize their sushi. So what we'll do is we'll earn the sushi on your behalf. We'll stake that sushi for X sushi, which increases the APY. And we do that without you needing to spend money on gas, spend time, effort, and resources and mind power on the appropriate strategy.

And through that strategy, we're able to optimize, you know, the return and investment for the users. Hey, guys, quick break in the action. In the second half of this AMA, we ask Chris about the specific components that make up Badger Dow and the financial services that Badger Dow offers for BTC, the asset. And we also ask about the Badger token and its future role with utility. There's a lot left in this AMA. I hope you guys are enjoying it.

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If you or anyone you know is hot on Defi and you're trying to get your money into a Defi investment, Dharma is the place to go. Signing up and going through KYC is an absolute breeze. It took me just under three minutes, and after signing into my bank account via Plaid, I am now just one transaction away from any token that Uniswap has to offer. Go to www.dh.dh-rma.io, that's dh-r-m-a.io. Download the DARBA app and get yourself unbanked today. If you want to live a bankless life, you need to get a Monolith defy visa card. Monolith is both a one-two punch of an Ethereum smart contract wallet,

as well as an accompanying Visa card that lets you spend the money that you have in your Ethereum wallet wherever Visa is accepted. It's really a fantastic tool that lets you use Ethereum for what it does best, which is holding and managing your financial assets, but also keeps you connected to the rest of the world's payment rails. Monolith also offers on-ramp services for getting your Fiat money into the world of defy. So it's trivial to top up your monolith card if ever you need to, and your deposited money goes straight into your non-custodial wallet. So your money is never held by a centralized intermediary because your monolith wallet is native to Ethereum. Monolith helps you transcend both the legacy and the crypto worlds because the money that you hold in your monolith

wallet has the power of defy behind it. Swapping assets on uniswap or earning yield in defy is at your fingertips. But with Monolith, so are the groceries at your grocery store or the coffee at your coffee shop. Go to monolith.xyZ to sign up and get your monolith visa card today. So, Chris, this brings me to another question that's coming in from the bankless community. And I see a few different versions of tokenized Bitcoin here, right? You've got WBTC. Looks like there might be some other versions here. What's your take on the different versions of Bitcoin?

Like, what's the best tokenized Bitcoin? What's your favorite? And what are the tradeoffs between these? Well, I'll reference David here because he was on a podcast with my friend Luke a little while ago and kind of dove into each of these. You know, in general, they're all different flavors with different risk parameters and different appetites for different types of users. WBT in particular, there's obviously centralization with BitCo, which also brings a higher level of insurance around, you know, the Bitcoin deposits. those are also KYC. You look at some of the others, like REMBTC in particular, they're not KYC.

Those are powered through the REMVM, which arguably is more decentralized than a lot of solutions out there. But when you dig into it, as many people have already brought into the surface, there is a level of control around those assets from a group of people part of the REM project. So again, tradeoffs are our perspective, as always, is we want to sort of support as much Bitcoin as possible in any form. So even if you look at all those vaults, there's all of the bitcoins, right? There's REMBTC, SBTC, WBTC, TBTC. We haven't gone as far to support some of the others just yet, just from a prioritization standpoint or the other products,

but like, you know, each BTC and then now we're supporting, you know, BTCB on, on finance. But yeah, that's, that's my take on that. So one of these very, uh, very, versions of Bitcoin on Ethereum is Dig, which you hinted at earlier. It's like Ampleforth and it's that it's a rebasing token, but it rebases towards one Bitcoin. Chris, could you go into the details behind Dig and kind of what the goals of the dig product are? Sure. So Ryan and whoever is controlling this, you would need to connect your wallet to see all the details

here. The reason why we did that is just because it kills us from the amount of calls that it does on the back. I might not docks myself on this. I was about to say, yeah. But nonetheless, yeah, so Diggs a synthetic representation of Bitcoin, and we believe that there were certain mechanics that didn't need to rely on centralized custody to be able to bring Bitcoin to those other chains. So at the core of it, we have the rebasing mechanics that are similar to that of Ampleforth, and that's, you know, if Bitcoin is higher than the price of DIG, then there is an increase in supply. Why?

So it wants people to sell to bring the price down. had one yesterday. Now I have 1.5. I'll sell that point five and that cell pressure brings it down. Vice versa on the by side. Now, what we found is that there's a lot of inherent problems with that. One, and it made very prevalent, I like David's laugh there, but there's a lot of inherent problems to that. One is composability, right? So it's very difficult for defy protocols, centralized exchanges, any real counterparty, even cross-train bridges, all these things. They can't support native rebasing assets. So that was one issue. The other issue is when you look at the rebasing mechanics, the buy side is really, in our opinion, broken. That's the broke because then what

happens is the price is going. We've seen this with dig. We've obviously seen this with Ample for it. The price goes down and instead of people wanting to buy, they're just selling to get out quicker so they don't you know it's like trying to move away from the falling knife so what we're doing is and what our attention has always been is how do we leverage the vaults and automated strategies and smart contracts to optimize these mechanics to stay closer to the peg that was our mission with launching dig so when we launched dig we obviously launched with the dig vault we obviously launched with LP pairs and things along those lines and dig's been around now two months I think it's spent about 35 days above peg, a few days at equilibrium, and then the rest below. So it's been

a little bit of an up and down. But these vault strategies allow for two things. And this is already apparent. So when you deposit in the dig vault, you get a token back. It's called B-dig, and it represents your share of the vault or the pool. That token is a standard ERC-20 token, and it can be moved anywhere. And what's happening is your rewards and the API is being auto compounded in your position. So whenever you want your dig back, you just come to the vault and withdraw the appropriate amount of dig. So what that's allowed us to do is have that be integrated on money markets, like even

with Binance smart chain. Like yesterday was the first time a rebasing asset cross-chains and was able to be put to work without some of the limitations that come with it. The other side of it is what we're bringing to market in the next, I probably say, in the next three to four weeks, which is our stability vault. So we're going to have an active strategy that uses a reserve of WBT. If you think about, if you guys are familiar with the FRAX model, it's kind of like that, but think about like an automated vault strategy that's taking action to optimize those parameters I talked about before.

So if we were able to drive quite a bit of the dig supply, circulating supply, into that dig vault, for a lot of the other reasons, composability, APY and stuff like that, and then have automated strategies selling at certain parameters and buying at certain parameters, that inherently should drive the market because it represents the majority of the supply from that market to be closer to the peg. And we feel that that is our attempt at trying to bring a synthetic Bitcoin to market that doesn't rely on any centralized custody. Chris, this is a question from Mark from the bankless community.

How would you, Chris, argue that dig is the most trustless and best asset representation of Bitcoin on Ethereum? maybe just consolidate what you said to like, what's the elevator pitch for why this is the best trustless tokenized version of Bitcoin on Ethereum? Well, I wouldn't say that's the case today. It's not the best trustless representation of Bitcoin because we haven't been able to knock it out of the park with stability. The volatility in itself makes it difficult to claim anything close to that, to be honest with you. And that's really not our intention to be the best.

Our intention is to give an alternative and another representation from a price perspective that allows you to take advantage of all the great things that can come with defy and all the utility that can come with defy. We're also proponents for the other types of Bitcoin. And we believe there's just going to be so many, so many varieties that fit different risk profiles. So I wouldn't say, I wouldn't agree that is, or I wouldn't say it's to trust the most trustless and best representation, but that's our take. Chris, I'd like to get into the details of the Badger token.

And so earlier you illustrated how the Badger token is a tool to issue rewards, and you alluded to it being unsustainable in its current form because it's being issued, right? So what is like the long-term sustainability plan with the Badger token and also perhaps just comment on the role that the Badger token plays with both governance and value capture? Yeah, at the core of it, David, it's, you know, it is a governance token. Any and everything associated with the Badger ecosystem, all products, all parameters, all fees, treasury, everything's decided. We've had, I think, 43 different improvement proposals that have been voted on to put in perspective. Our last vote had 1,299 unique wallets participate in that

vote and that accounted for almost $20 million worth of Badger that was used to vote for that specific proposal. But that is the core of Badger. It's like, you know, by having Badger, you have a real voice and shared ownership in everything that's being built. And it's not, again, this is the evolution. It's not just, hey, I'm governing like this cool, fun stuff. And it's like me and a few friends kind of ring around the Rosie, you know, our vaults are alone create almost $5 million in profit, right? We have $600 million in the treasury. Like these are real, real dollar amounts. This is a real profit generating business slash company. And the only way decisions are made and things change and that company is going to be

successful is if the token holders put their voice forward, have impact, genuinely give a crap, and give the type of insight necessary to push it in the right direction. And that's the true value, call it value. That is the utility of the Badger token. Today we don't distribute any type of revenue or profits back to the token holders. Of course, that's to the token holders to decide. But nonetheless, that's what Badger is all about. And, you know, when you talk about unsustainability of reward distribution,

you know, there's a couple of things to point out there. From a pure product perspective, that's what I'm speaking to. From a token distribution standpoint and further putting the hands of your token into, excuse me, further putting the token into the hands of people that should have it in their hands, I don't know a better community to put it into than your product users. Like, you're using a product. That product, you then have say over everything about it as the product user. Like, it's as if like I used any product in my normal life and I have.

had the ability to say, you know what, these fees are just pissing me off, man. I don't really want this anymore. Put a proposal forward. Make a change. Rally the community, right? We don't, we don't necessarily have as much of a convoluted governance structure. It's very straightforward. You know, there's a forum vote and needs to meet quorum of 50, 50, uh, yay votes.

Then it goes to snapshot. And then you can vote on it. There's no delegation. There's none of this type of stuff. And then, you know, the delegated multi-six signers. that are controlled by the token holders, then execute whatever the token holders want to be had. And like I said, we've done that 43 times already. Chris, I think this is a good time to fit in a question from Joe Kay from bankless.

I'll just read it out. The Badger Project has really put community first, built up this amazing war chest while doing it. What advice do you have for current or future founders to follow their lead? Yeah, it's, you know, I'm a big proponent for, you know, breaking the system. I was just talking to, you know, he suggested I say hello. I was just talking to John from Opolis right before this call. And, you know, we kind of shared in the same sentiment, right? Like that venture back system is broken.

How that system allows companies to go to market and accelerate is at the, at the, it really, it really, I was looking for a specific word, it's at the expense of the founders in many instances, right? I've been through those circles before. So what I would say is, you know, we have an opportunity and timing is very important, obviously. I think we all can relate what, you know, what it's like launching a project in the bear market

versus the bull market. But nonetheless, you know, leverage the network effect that can come from token, economics and the ability to have your product users be owners in said products. Like, that's very important. So if I were to tell someone, you know, what playbook they should potentially use, I'm obviously going to be biased and suggest, you know, art playbook, right? Build something.

Test the shit out of whatever you're building. Make sure what you're building you believe at least to have some type of product market fit and have a level of uniqueness and innovation. then think very, very closely about what types of values you want the community members to share and try and align that with a specific message. Like I've said this to, you know, a few people have asked me a similar question. And, you know, when now in the market, when someone says Bitcoin, at least in the deep, if you're a defy head, you'll probably say like, Badger.

If you've heard asked like, hey, what Badger's about? They'll answer with Bitcoin. Like, think about how. simple that message is versus what we're used to, you know, the elevator pitches, the things that come with crypto projects. I'm doing this for X and that and like all these crazy words and people are like, what the fuck you've been talking about, you know? So it's like that message needs to align with the values that you want to share because similar to Bankless. Bankless is another great example. You have a shared belief system, right? And that's what builds community.

And with community, you have sustainability because that community is going to go through their trenches with you when we're in different types of situations, right? And they're going to be there when we're out of those situations and, you know, the market picks back up and all that type of stuff. So I would say identifying that and then the final piece to it would be how can you use on-chain actions to verify and quantify those specific values so that you can attract those community members early, and feel confident that if you have a product that solves a problem, that's aligned with a mission, that you think based on these on-chain actions, that these people will share, that by you go into market, you'll at least get off the ground and be able to hit it running. And then with that, if you are successful, even mediocrely successful, you'll have plenty of money to bootstrap the business, you know, find other streams of revenue,

hire people. And now you're doing all this without a board to talk to, without all the bullshit that comes with investors and, you know, traditional, you know, company type stuff, venture back company type stuff. So that would be my suggestion. Chris, it's always very refreshing to hear when somebody can communicate the association between like the cultural shared values of a community and what is ultimately then value capture in the token. those two things, if people that, there aren't very many people out there that can communicate those two links. So that makes me really optimistic about what you guys are doing at Badger. I want to turn to a question that I'm seeing out of the bankless YouTube is what other chains are, is Badger interested in deploying onto next? So we released a post, I guess, last week.

And it had an infographic on a variety of different chains and layer two solutions that we're looking at. in the end of the day, our priorities are going to come around what I spoke to before. Like, where's Bitcoin being utilized? Where are the users? And then how easy is it for us to deploy there? So like EVM compatibility is top priority, first and foremost. And, you know, the whole slew of them, right? Like, you know, we're looking at optimism.

We're also looking at Solana. We're going to be launching on Polygon, you know, within the next few weeks. Like, you know, the list, once again, it's, you know, we're looking at, we're looking at Pocod, it's early. We're looking at an avalanche. It's really early. You know, we're looking at these different types of things, but in terms of like what prioritizes, Phantom, of course, right? Phantom is a really interesting play because it has a lot of the tools already deployed there, like sushi and cream and curve and a lot of these things that we need for testing purposes. That's another thing that people don't talk about much is this, you know, when you have a yield aggregation product like we do, it's very, very, very difficult to build the type of test environment necessary to get it ready, get new strategies ready for launch, do all these types of things.

Because you have to plug into so many different Lego pieces and to mimic those Lego pieces exactly how they are at that state, it's very difficult to do in a test environment. So something like a phantom, it could be a great place for us to plug in it. to all the protocols, you know, the AMM, all these different things that we need for creating yield and optimizing yield strategies for users and doing an environment, again, where, you know, it's cheap, it's fast, it's easy, it's not a big technical lift for us to do. So that's how we're looking at our cross-trained initiatives. And, you know, I envision a time, not the near future, or excuse me, not so near future, where a user comes with Bitcoin to Badger and, you know,

looks at what type of yield they want or what type of return they want, they click a button a minute later they're earning that yield. And what's happening behind the scenes is we're taking that Bitcoin, we're wrapping it, we're bridging it, we're bringing it to different places, we're optimizing it across chain, we're doing all these types of things. But for the user, you know, it's one click and now they're earning on their Bitcoin. Chris, here's another question coming in from bankless community member. Mark, what defy app has been the biggest inspiration for Badger. That's easy. That's YERN.

Why YerN? Tell us more. Yeah, well, a lot of the things that I mentioned already. One, you know, we built our code base off of the YerN V1 Vault Foundation. Two, you know, how they went to market and the fact that they are an open community and collective, you know, is exactly, you know, the type of blueprint that we were trying to follow. And, you know, I've always been a fan and a community member. and like, you know, the team's, you know, the core team behind it, they're, they're awesome and they're

committed to innovation. But for the most part, you know, it's easy for, it's easy for me to say that because, you know, we've, we've just, like in my mind, like, I've always looked at yearn as kind of like that, that leading example for us. And, you know, even now next week, and I don't want to make any promises, but hopefully next week we're going to be launching, you know, our yearn integration, be one of the first partners to integrate urine vaults and have like a revenue share relationship with that integration with the WBT vault, which is really cool. So it's starting to come full circle and there's different things, you know, that we have an opportunity to collaborate on. But, you know, urine was definitely that, that inspiration. Chris, this is a

question just for me because I'm super curious about this. We're seeing Dow's now with just absolutely massive treasuries, like crazy treasuries. What's your treasury now? I'm just curious. I know it's all on chain. I could look it up. I think it changes so much. I think it's like five or six hundred million, something like that. Okay. So how are you going to spend it? Exactly. That was going to be my question.

So like, so in let me maybe direct this question to a theme that David and I have been repeating on bank lists, which is that in this new crypto economy, there are infinite opportunities. Do you want a job? You can get a job. There's money to pay you. what are you guys going to do with all of this treasury is the first question and then how can people give the Badger protocol what it needs to earn some money from this treasury two-part question there

so the first part you know we're obviously going to hire the best people that we can how we hire is a little different and that speaks to the second question which I'll answer in a second we're going to be investing in, you know, R&D and building new products, obviously. We're going to be leveraging the Treasury for incentivization for some of those products to accelerate users, build stickiness so that we can start getting them into our other products. Like if you just were to think about this for a second, we launch a vault. We want that vault to have 100 million in it because immediately after we're going to say, hey, you can borrow against that vault position.

And, you know, once those APIs are down to like 15 or 20%, there's additional. utility on top. So like getting them in the door there and using Badger and Dig as incentives to get them there and, you know, and reward them appropriately. You know, it's like customer acquisition costs to an extent. And you can kind of think about it like that. And you know what's interesting and not a lot of people are talking about. We don't have much time. So I'm going to, I'm going to make it quick. Because of these massive treasuries and Dow's and because of how early defy is and because of how open this financial system is, I believe protocols like us, and I'll just speak to Badger, our ability to put our own treasury to work is going to potentially be our largest

revenue stream moving forward. And that in itself is so unique to even think about on how, you know, as your assets, as Badger and Dig are further integrated in places where you can borrow and lend against it and potentially, you know, LP in and earn API on it. And then the same thing with our Bitcoin and our ETH and our USDC and all of our other assets, you know, that that's going to be a very, very unique opportunity that has never existed before. Never mind crypto. Like a year ago, like, you know, protocols, a year and a half ago, we weren't talking about protocols making money, right?

Like, and tokens, like, making money. Like, that was just ridiculous. Now it's a reality. And now with that capital, there's a lot that you can do with it to optimize. You know, people would go nuts. Tradition, like, these dows are also going to have, like, I don't want to use traditional banking terms, but like asset management and funds, like that sit, you know, underneath that they're putting that treasury to work to generate that type of revenue. It's pretty wild.

And when you have a large community like us with like 15,000 people that can give input and say, here's a proposal, this is what we should do. Hey, I was doing this, this, this isn't this. And then these groups come together. We're actually talking to a few folks that are very Defi Native investors and users that are going to kind of build this like subcommittee within Badger that are responsible for a percentage of the Treasury upon, you know, community vote. And they're going to be putting that to work to optimize a return on it, right? But nonetheless, the second part, which is important, really important to us, is how can people get involved? So like I said, we're open, completely open. You can do as little, you can do as much

as you want, you can do anything you want across all spectrums, technical and non-technical. Everyone today that works at Badger outside of a few people literally came from the community. They decided to put a little more thought into their forum post. They decided to put a little more thought into their Discord post. And what happened there was, after a few times, I'm like, fuck, let me ping this person. Hey, dude, like, what do you want to get involved in something? We need some help on like figuring out the treasure. We need some help on this.

We need some help on. hey, did you want to help on this cool project? And what's awesome is, is like, you're not just like working on some random shit in like a sandbox. You're working on potentially production ready technology that's going to have millions of dollars touch it. Now, there's so much other people and involvement and security practices around that. But to be at the forefront and go from like someone that's not as involved and maybe a participant to like a builder, that's like, that's huge for a lot of people.

It's huge for me. It's huge for so many people. So for, you know, what the immediate thing is like, join the Discord, right? You can find that on our telegram, on our Twitter profile and or reach out to me. And anything, we need help across the board. Anything from like a couple hours a week to, you know, however much you want to do, more than happy to chat, get involved. We have a grant program.

With that grant program, we paid our $500,000 in grants last month alone. and these are people that don't want that aren't ready or we're not ready to have them commit full-time to the project. And they're just working on different initiatives based on their skill set, based on where they want to learn. And based on their time effort, we either get a retroactive grant for the work they did or we'll put them on kind of an ongoing grant. And then at any point in that time, either they suggest they want to be more full-time or we try and pull them into the full-time because they're a rock star. And that's how we work. Really truly pioneering the future of the self-sovereign independent worker. That's pretty cool.

Chris, to wrap up here, I just kind of want to ask you about the five-minute roadmap for Badger. Like, what's coming in the pipeline that users can expect? We got an exciting few weeks ahead of us, actually. We've been building for the last couple months getting ready for this big push. Either today or tomorrow, we're going to be doing the second round of our NFT drop with MIM, which I would argue is the most gamified NFT drop anyone's ever attempted. Essentially, you can use the interest-bearing version of Dig, and you can stake that on meme, uncapped.

So it's the first uncapped meme initiative, and earn points, and then mint NFTs. But then you have these NFTs. What do you do with them? We have a game that we built in what we're releasing called the Badger Arcade, and there's a $400,000 honeypot. and we call it diamond hands because you could redeem a percentage of the honeypot by giving your NFTs in.

The longer you hold, the larger percentage of the honeypot you get. It may never end for a few reasons. One, because there's obviously going to be a secondary market for those NFTs. Two, we're going to be enabling those NFTs to earn an APY boost inside of our app. so giving it real utility inside of the ecosystem. So we're going to be going to turning that on either today or tomorrow. And then subsequent to that, we're going to be launching on additional chains. And we're going to be really focused on the utility side of the business.

So we're going to be launching two initiatives, one called Clause, the other one called interest-bearing Bitcoin. Essentially, with both of those, you'll be able to use your existing interest-bearing vault positions on Badger and either borrow a stable coin against it. That's with Clause or mint interest-bearing Bitcoin, which is backed by an index of all of our curve volts that, of course, you guys saw have all the different tokenized Bitcoin in there, which in itself mitigates some of the risk associated with each Bitcoin. And now our whole thing is like, why would you own normal rap Bitcoin

if you can own, you know, interest-bearing rat Bitcoin and all the fun things that are going to be able to go on with that. So those are the initiatives that we're putting. pushing forward in the near future. And then there's a whole slow of other things, but it's all kind of around the same thing. We're launching our Bitcoin bridge, actually, in between that, where you can take native Bitcoin

and go right into vaults, launching Zapper, so you can go from any asset into the vaults with one click. So we have a lot of these things that we've been working hard on, and we're excited to make it easy for people to use the app, give more utility to Bitcoin, and then give more utility to already existing vault deposits. Chris, that's awesome. Thanks for walking us through the vision, this community. Ask me anything. This is Bitcoin on Defi. It's super exciting to see the community you've built around this vision. You guys are

building hard, man. So well done. Thanks for joining us on Bankless. Awesome, guys. Thanks for having me. This is a blast. Bankless Nation, risks and disclaimers, of course. Bitcoin is risky. So is Defi, so is all of crypto. You could lose what you put in, but we are headed west. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone, but we're glad you're with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot.