Bankless - AMA with Tascha from Alpha Finance

Episode Date: February 18, 2021

An AMA with the Project Lead at Alpha Finance Lab, an Ecosystem of DeFi Products. 🚀 SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER: http://bankless.substack.com/​  ✊ STARTING GUIDE BANKLESS: https://bit.ly/37Q17uI���  🎙️ SUBSCRIBE TO PODCAST: http://podcast.banklesshq.com/​  👕 BUY BANKLESS TEE: https://merch.banklesshq.com/​  ----- 💪BECOME A BANKLESS PREMIUM MEMBER: http://bankless.cc/membership​  ------ GO BANKLESS WITH THESE SPONSOR TOOLS: ⭐️ AAVE - BORROW OR LEND YOUR ASSETS https://bankless.cc/aave​  🚀 GEMINI - MOST TRUSTED EXCHANGE AND ONRAMP https://bankless.cc/go-gemini​  💳 MONOLITH - GET THE HOLY GRAIL OF BANKLESS VISA CARDS https://bankless.cc/monolith​  📱 DHARMA - MOBILE ONRAMP DIRECTLY INTO DEFI https://bankless.cc/dharma ------ 📣LATTICE | NEXT GENERATION OF HARDWARE WALLETS https://bankless.cc/gridplus ------ AMA with Tascha from Alpha Finance Alpha Finance Lab (https://alphafinance.io/ ) is an ecosystem of DeFi products including Alpha Homora (https://homora.alphafinance.io/​), which released its V2 upgrade in January 2021. Tascha is Project Lead and Co-Founder. Tascha on Twitter https://twitter.com/tascha_panpan?s=20​  ------ Don't stop at the video! Subscribe to the Bankless newsletter program http://bankless.substack.com/​  Visit the official Bankless website http://banklesshq.com/​  Follow Bankless on Twitter https://twitter.com/BanklessHQ​  Follow Ryan on Twitter https://twitter.com/ryansadams​  Follow David on Twitter https://twitter.com/TrustlessState ​ ----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time we may add links in this channel to products we use. We may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. We'll always disclose when this is the case.

All right. Welcome bankless nation to this community. Ask me anything. We have Tasha here from Alpha Finance. AMA times are a good opportunity for you to get your questions out. So what you should do, if you're hanging out on Discord, if you're a bankless member, you can ask your question in the bankless Discord. We'll prioritize those questions. You can also ask your question on YouTube. David and I will be checking in on YouTube, getting your questions queued up. This is really an opportunity for you guys to ask questions of Tasha and of the Alpha Finance Project. We do this on the YouTube and then we also put it out on the podcast too. So if you prefer listening to it in podcast format, you can get it that way to. David, we should just introduce folks to Alpha

Finance and Alpha Homora specifically. What do you want to say as an intro to this exciting, cool project? Yeah, it's really exploded into the forefront. recently, which is, and it's always pretty cool when a project does that, when it just rises out of the very chaotic world of defy into the forefront of people's minds. The Alpha is famous for being able to provide really, really, really strong yields on ether, above and beyond what you would get from ETH staking. And the way that Alpha does that is what we call, what they've called leveraged yield farming. So I have my questions as to what that entails, how risk is controlled, what the participants are in the system.

Apparently, Alpha is originating more loans than Ave, which is pretty insane because AVE is so crazy. It's like the canonical lending platform. So we're going to get into all these questions in just a little bit. But before we do, we're going to talk a little bit about these sponsors that make this show possible. All right. Gemini is the world's most trusted cryptocurrency exchange. I've been a customer of Gemini since I first got into crypto in 2017,

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is the Gemini crypto back credit card, which gives you 3% cash back on all of your purchases, but paid to you in your preferred crypto asset. When I get my Gemini credit card, I'm going to make sure that I get my cash back in ETH. So whenever I buy something, I get a little bit of ETH bonus back to me at the same time. You can open up a free account in under three minutes at jemini.com slash go bankless. And if you trade more than $100 within the first 30 days after sign up, you'll be gifted a free $15 Bitcoin bonus. Check them out at gemini.com slash go bankless. AVE is a borrowing and lending protocol on Ethereum and just recently released AVE version 2, which has a ton of cool new features that makes using Avey even more powerful. With Avey,

you can leverage the full power of defy money legos, yield, and composability all in one application. On Ave, there are a ton of assets that you can deposit in order to gain yield, and all of those same assets can also be borrowed from the protocol if you have deposited collateral. Here you can see me getting a 200 USDC loan against my portfolio of a number of different defy tokens and eth. I'll choose a variable interest rate because it's a lower rate than the stable interest rate option, but I could choose the stable interest rate option if I wanted to lock that interest rate in permanently. One of AVE's V2 features is the ability to swap collateral without having to withdraw your assets, trade them on uniswap, and then deposit them back into AVE.

AVE does all of this for you all in one seamless transaction, so you don't have to repay loans in order to change the collateral you have backing them. Check out the power of AVE at AVE.com. That's AAVE.com. All right, guys, we are back with Tasha. from Alpha Finance for this community. Ask me anything. Tasha, how are you doing today?

Good. Thanks for having me. Tasha, I want to get into your background, actually, first. And talk a little bit about where kind of you came from. So you've got investment banker in your Twitter bio. So maybe you might be the first banker guest we've had on bankless, which is kind of fun. So tell us how you fell down the defy rabbit hole and found yourself building a Define protocol. Yeah, so, you know, since when I was studying at UC Berkeley, I've always been interested in

crypto and blockchain space. And, you know, Berkeley and the Bay Area are very, you know, tech savvy and friendly space, right? So that's how I first got exposed. And then it just keeps studying, learning more about the whole space. And generally, I like finance and I like tech, right so you know when i first started my career that i decided to join a tech investment banking role so that means that i'm doing financial services for tech clients um across the u.s and across the europe as well and then when defy it started to become more um you know dominant and also becoming the main use case of blockchain that's when i really got you know very very excited um and trying to learn more about it and pretty much yeah um after

finance role, I pivoted to more tech to product management at Tencent, and then pivoted to more blockchain and band protocol and then now Defi, right? So it's been a journey, but it's been quite some time that I've been interested in studying the whole space. That is super cool. So did you come into crypto by way of more defy or did you come more by way of like the Bitcoin sort of path? It's the Bitcoin path. Okay, gotcha. So you started with Bitcoin. and then went into kind of the DFI side of things. Okay, well, so tell us about Alpha, Alpha, really Alpha Finance, and why you decided to focus on the areas that you're focusing

with this DFI protocol. Yeah, so you have to think Alpha Finance as a DFI lab. And what that means is that we're incubating and innovating a number of DFI products. The goal of each of the products will be different. So the problems we're solving would be particular to particular area for each product. But then at the end of the day, all of these products will work as an ecosystem. And the whole ecosystem, we're focusing on the main goal instead, instead of focusing on one particular area of the five that we want to innovate in.

So the main goal that all of these products as an ecosystem will work towards is to maximize the returns for users and also minimize the downside risks. So, you know, once we achieve this goal, then, of course, we would go for the bigger goal. And ultimately, at the end of the day, we are here to hopefully change and in pretty much reform traditional finance. But, you know, given DFI landscape now, given the regulatory landscape, it would be some time. So what we're doing now is pretty much trying to make very useful and staying at the forefront of DFI and pretty much grow Alpha and DFI to the point. where we can make more and bigger impact later down the line. So this is a theme that we've seen arise out of a number of projects

that came out of Defi Summer and just the most recent cohort of Defi projects. Notably, Yam started off as this rebasing thing, but then it grew its treasury, and now it produced the umbrella protocol, and so it's kind of acting like a Dow that just produces products. We're also seeing the same thing out of Sushi Swap, which first started with a clone of Uniswap, and now has Bentow Box,

which is something totally different, a borrowing lending platform. Would you say Alpha is similar to that? Or is the product side of Alpha and the Dow side of Alpha different? Well, how would you compare and contrast these different organizations that are living on chain? I think there are multiple differences, right? Like, the first one is I think it, like how we progress and how the other progress may be different. The end goal may be the same in which that there are multiple products as an equal. But for Alpha, we created as the first day knowing that it's going to be an ecosystem.

So that means that we structured a team, the way that we work, the way we build are a bit different. We're always going to be on the lookout of new opportunities, trying to see which market is looking for which product. Perhaps, let's say, if we come up with a new product tomorrow, that we think that, you know, it really fits with the market landscape right now. you might just ship it before the products that we have announced. So I think it's more of a dynamic workflow in that sense. So that's the main difference in terms of how we work and how we build,

how we evaluate the products, right? The second difference is I think it's the goal that we're focusing on or like the area that we're focusing on. So let's say if instead of focusing on all the products that we work on, we're actually focusing on the end goal that I mentioned. So let's say if one particular product allows us to achieve that goal better, then that means that we have to focus on that product more, right? So I think that that whole thing comes back to the fact that we are building an ecosystem since day one.

So with that under as like the kind of the social contract of Alpha, an ecosystem from day one, that means that you need a team that can manage an ecosystem, right? more specific skill sets and straight up more of a larger team. So how did the alpha team assemble? Where did all of these people come from and who are they? Yeah, that's a question that, you know, I could ask a lot because, you know, it's been quite a journey for us from, you know, end of last year to today, right? So right now the team mostly is based in Thailand.

The talent is pretty top-notch, in my opinion. I mean, others can think differently, right? And pretty much the way that we recruit are recruiting from Olympics, you know, candidates. And a lot of these are already in Thailand. So Thai people are actually pretty strong in computer science and quaint to begin with. And then, you know, now that we have a core, strong team, we're going to decentralize the whole team and expand the whole team going forward. So now we're actually recruiting globally for various roles.

for tech, for business development, for marketing. So expanding, not just limiting to tight-in. So when you were assembling this team of diverse set of skills, you had this product in mind. And so what are the core competencies of the team? Like, what is the, if the team was really good at something? And how does that relate to that? What is that thing and how does that thing relate to the product

that you guys are trying to build out at Alpha? I think there are two main, I mean, three main things. one thing is that the team has to be really strong in math and coding. I mean, coding is a given, right? Like smart contracts, validity and everything. But math is something that we really put emphasis on because in order for us to build a cutting edge and innovative products and still be a safe protocol for people to use, math is going to be a really core component.

Let's say if you go on Alpha Komora V1 or V2 now, each of the leverage level is thought through. Nipun, who's the co-founder and CTO, is actually ranked the third in the global mathematics Olympiad. So he pretty much has done a number of research on what parameter you should go for turf pool, for, you know, East sushi pool. So it's not a random number that we are putting out to users to use.

I think that's the number one core skill that we look for. It is crazy to me. I just want to make a comment. It is crazy to me that Defi is starting to attract this caliber of talent now. This certainly was not true in the 2017 cycle. But now it seems like it is true. We're getting top talent into Defi working on these projects. It's super exciting. Yeah, I think it's shown a lot of, you know, valuable reasons why people will want to come in, right? The fact that you are creating a new financial system, the fact that you're, you know, it's in the beginning of the whole new era. You're not late to the game. You're actually creating the whole future. So I think that's how people get, you know, very excited and able to attract these talents in, which is helpful for the whole D-E-5 ecosystem, I believe, not just for alpha. So I want to ask about what does math unlock?

So, like, you know, you see I said that, you know, coding is a given, right? So all of these teams can code, right? And so the coding isn't really the competitive advantage. It sounds like what you're saying is math is the competitive advantage that the alpha team has. What does that enable? What kind of products does that enable you guys to access because you guys are good at math? So to speak on Alpha Homora first, right?

The way that it can offer high leverage and pretty much still be on a safe side is that everything is processed. and all the loans and all the funds are held on the smart contract. The way that we do it and the way that we make sure that the parameters are still safe, allowing for a buffer, even at liquidation, there's still another buffer to allow for more price swing. You know, what's that buffer is going to be like? How are we going to be comfortable building a leveraged new farming product while still having, you know, a comfort to ourselves, right?

So I think that's for Alpha Humora. For AlphaX, it's the fact that we are capable of, of baking in the funding rate payments into the quoted price. So when building AlphaX, which is a decentralized non-order book, Per Preciousal swap trading product, we have in mind since they won that we are targeting anyone in DFI who wants to trade perpetual swap without having to know that they're trading for pressure swap. Let's say that you want 10x returns if ETH price goes up,

and ETH price goes up by $100, and now you're getting $1,000, right? So that's the end goal that you're getting. You don't have to understand anything in between. You didn't have to understand funding rate or rebalancing or anything that is complicated, you know, in professional stock trading, right? So that's the end goal. Now it determines on how do we get there? So math is going to be really important.

How do we figure out a funding rate mechanism that just simplifies everything and makes it just into the quoted price? So when people trade on Alpha X, for instance, it would be similar to a trading on spot market in which the only prices that matter are the entry price and the X price. So you can just take the two prices and calculate your net gains and losses without having to, you know, taking into the account of funding payments in between as well. So that's a example of, you know, math in AlphiX. So, Satasha, let's maybe zoom out for a minute and talk high level about these products, right? So you mentioned two. You mentioned Alpha Hamora and Alpha X. And I'm not sure if Alpha X is out yet, but maybe we'll get into that.

I know Alpha Hamora a bit better. And so that is basically a way to get like some sort of leverage yield farming sort of opportunities. Could you maybe describe that? And before you do, I'm going to ask a non-Mathie question. So Alpha Hamora, what's with the Harry Potter stuff? Are you guys big Harry Potter fans? Yeah, Nipun is a really big Harry Potter fan. And, you know, with V2, we're generalizing the theme a lot more.

So if you go to Alpha Homora V2 site, you can see that the only Harry Potter reference is the O with the lightning. Okay. Okay, so it's like... The openness is more generalized. Very cool. All right, cool. So tell us about the product then. What does it do?

Yeah, so as a user, you can use as a two-way for, you know, to maximize your yields on Alfa-Homorah. If you are a lender, then you can lend your assets and get high yields. On Alpha-Komora v1, the lending assets is limited to just eat. And that's because all the loans that leverage new farmers are taking are based on EVE. So that's why, you know, the lending asset is limited to just ETH, and that's why it can generate really high lending API for eat holders because once you lend these Eve, it's the leverage you farmers who are borrowing these ETH to Euth farm and get the high APY. And hence they are willing to pay the borrowing interest rate because they're gaining a lot

higher APY on leverage U farming. On V2, the difference is that with the lenders, you're not limited to just Ead. We're expanding, you know, the list of assets in lending pool to be a lot larger. So right now if you go on V2, you can see that ETH, USDP, USC, and Dye are assets that you can lend. And then going forward, there will be more assets that you can lend as well, like Wi-Fi, SNX, DPI, and the list goes on, right? So Alpha Homeward V2 will continue to grow from the lending aspects and also continue to grow from the leverage U-Farming pools as we continue to add more pools aspects to. So that's from the lenders side and a bit more detail on the leveraged U farmers side. So once you come in, there are pretty much two main, like several, three main things that Alpha Homora

simplifies for the leverage U farmers. Number one is, of course, you get to unlock that leverage. So that means that you don't have to manually borrow loans from one place, and then, which is also over collateralized loans. and then compile that loans with your liquidity to begin with and then you farm. So we simplify that by having you to take on leverage that is under collateralized loans as well. So let's say if you take one Eth to supply, you can borrow like 1.5 Eth. So it's even more than what you supply. So that's the one thing that our farmer does for leverage you farmers.

The second thing is that when you take your liquidity to supply, in the first step, you don't have to have equal value of both. So let's say you want to provide liquidity or you farm on ETH sushi. You don't need to have Eith and sushi. You have any proportion. We're going to take care of that for you, either through swapping optimally or other ways, right? And then third thing is that we complete the whole U farming process for you. So once you supply liquidity, once you determine what assets you want to borrow in what proportion,

what wants you determine the leverage level, everything is all taking care for you, which means that, you know, taking the LP token to stake, collecting the farm token, all of those things are pretty much all done by Alpha Homora. So where, I would like to know where the yield actually comes from. And so in my mind, I'm getting an image of like the urine vaults, right, where there are different strategies that return different amounts of yield based on what those strategies are. And, you know, if you want to go peek under the hood, you can go find out what those strategies are. How does what, where does the yield actually come from with Alpha?

Like, where is that, are there vaults? Are there strategies? Like, what is the yield generation mechanism? So there is one main strategy, which is that it's taking the liquidity you supply and the borrowed funds that you determine to enter at. So let's say two X leverage, then it's, you know, half of your position is going to be the debt that borrow. So take all of that and supply to the liquidity providing pool that you select. Let's say you select ETH sushi, for instance, that it will supply to eat sushi on sushi swap, and then it will take the LP token to stake in the liquidity mining pool for you to claim sushi. So that's, you know,

the main strategy for for all the pools on Alpha Homora. The difference would be, you know, which pool you want to provide liquidity or UFAR. So let's say the APY on ETHSushi will be different. from the APY from Curve 3 pool, which is providing USDT, die, USC on Curve farming CRV token. So that's, you know, the high level. And then the APY for each of these pool will pretty much be coming from three parts with also minus the borrow API. So three minus one, right?

So the first part is the U-Farming API, which is on leverage. So let's say if you were to provide liquidity or you farm on eat sushi, let's say you would get 15%. And if you take 2x position on Alpha Homora, then that means that you're getting 30% because you're providing 2x more liquidity, hence you can you farm with 2x more of the liquidity and get more sushi rate. The second thing is trading fees, API, which is also on leverage. So let's say if you were to get 10% trading fees, API on a full. and you do 2x, then it would be 20%. The third thing is alpha API, which is the current liquidity mining program that we're running,

making for that we help migrate V1, 2B2 smoothly. And then, you know, those are all the positive API. The negative API is the borrowing interest rates that you have to pay based on what assets you borrow and how much you borrow. So the yield comes from issuance, other protocols issuance of their like equity token, right? So then the sushi-eath pair that comes from sushi being distributed from the sushi protocol. And then when you're talking about curve, you're talking about yield farming the CRV token. So my mental model has now gone from just yearn and vaults, but urine and vaults plus D-Y-D-X, which has margin and leverage, right? So if you slap these things together, are we generally pretty close to what alpha is?

Yeah, cool. Or for a homerite is, yeah. Cool. And then what are the risk? So can we talk about a risk? And who's taking up? Yeah, the risk for someone who's doing this kind of leverage yield farming. So, you know, smart contract risk is always going to be there.

We try to mitigate as much as possible doing various audits, having other builders in the space, reading through the codes. So that's by everyone who's using the product bearing that risk, right? for the leverage new farmers, your risk are on pretty much making sure that your position will not get liquidated. Because if your debt is too high comparing to the collateral that you put in, then you will reach a liquidation point. So you can monitor with your debt ratio number. So if your debt ratio is at 100%, then that is the liquidation risk that you're in, which means that other liquidators can come in and liquidated your position. What that means is that liquidators will get 5% of your position value.

And then 95%, depending on how much debt you have, right, will be used to pay back the debt that you owe. And then whatever is left is send back to you as a user. So that's the risk that users have to be aware, especially when prices swing and can make the position be closer to liquidation risk. One thing to note is that for the curve three pool, because all the components are stable coins. So if you supply stable coin and you're also borrowing stable coins, then the risk is actually lower than the other pools. Let's say, ETH, sushi, that you are providing ETH or sushi and borrowing ETH.

So you can see here that the stable coin pools, assuming that the stable coins are to their peck, then the position is less likely going to be moved towards liquidation because the debt portion doesn't really move that much because of the peck system of the stable coin. So that's on the you farmers, right? On the lenders, the risk is that if the positions or leverage positions become underwater, then partially, you know, the funds in the lending who may be used to cover that loss, right? But nothing to be too worried. We actually have several mechanisms to prevent that. The first mechanism is that even when it's at 100% liquidation, or even when it's at 100% debt ratio, which is the liquidation risk, we offer another buffer scenario, which means that

at liquidation risk, the positions are actually not underwater yet. So that's the one thing that we do. The second thing that we do is that Alpha Homora B2 also takes 20% of the borrowings, borrowers, uh, interest rate to set aside as the insurance funds. So, you know, if, uh, we have to cover the losses on the underwater positions to cover the debt, right? Then, um, this insurance funds will be tapped first, um, before tap into, um, the, the funds in the lending pool. And a pile of insurance funds. sounds like a fascinating topic that I think there's probably rabbit hole there. But first, before we go there, I want to ask about the collateralization ratio.

Did you just imply that you could actually have an even amount of debt to collateral in the alpha system? Yes. So the way that AlphaHara works, it's not similar to the other, let's say, lending protocol. And the key difference is that each asset actually has a collateral. credit and a borrowing credit. So this is different for the other lending protocol or like the mechanism that has been used widely in lending protocol because in typically there's no borrowing credit. There's only collateral credit or the collateral loan to value. Right. Let's say if you take one Eth, you can borrow approximately 70% value of that one Eth.

And then you can borrow anything within that 70% value of that ETH, right? what's different with AlphaHomer V2, and hence it's kind of harder to calculate what's the exact collateral ratio on top of anyone's head. You need like the Excel to do it because that when you supply, let's say, ETH, you would get a collateral credit value. Let's say you get, for instance, one collateral credit value, right? And then if you're going to borrow Dye, Dye will consume, for instance, 0.5 collateral credit. So which means that you can actually borrow two dye in this case. So assuming that the price is one to one for simplicity, right? But if you collateral with one eath and you get one collateral credit,

and if you're actually going to borrow sushi, for instance, sushi would actually claim and pretty much require 1.5 credit to borrow, which means that if you supply one eath and you have one credit, you actually cannot borrow sushi because it requires 1.5. So that's the mechanism that we do, which means that the collateral ratio depends, and pretty much also the leverage ratios, depend on two things, what assets you bring in as collateral and which assets you're borrowing, and not just which asset you are bringing in as collateral. And how are these parameters determined?

Well, Nipun. So Nipern is, you know, pretty much owning the main mechanism of, you know, what, parameters we offer to ensure that it's safe and also still able to offer leverage. And we have this huge Excel that we also do to make sure that we update, you know, every every week depending on the price and making sure that the parameters that we set is still within the range that we are okay with. Okay. Would you characterize that as a hands-on endeavor? Is that something that is updated frequently? Or like what is the long-term plan for maintaining this this balance. It seems like a delicate balance that if someone isn't having like their eyeballs on it

all the time could get out of hand. So technically you don't have to look at, you know, every week. We just do so now because we just launched V2. So we want to make sure that everything is fine, you know, as the migration process has been going, right? And all the parameters on our former V1 and V2 actually have taken into account the worst case scenario. So let's say if there's is a really huge price swing or anything in the past that can, yeah, can cannot lead to a good event. That is something that we also have taken into account and the levers that we offer pretty much ensure that, you know, if that scenario were to happen again, it would be mitigated. Although we cannot say that it would not happen because we don't know, you know, what else is

going to happen in DFI, right? So can we talk a little bit about lending on Alpha Hamara? So you could lend your ETH at least in version 1. Now in version 2, you can lend all sorts of other assets. What are the typical interest rates? Because it was fairly attractive in Alpha V1 for ETH. It was something like, I don't know, 4 to 8%, somewhere in that range. Is that about right?

So typically it stays around 8% in V1 and then goes up to like in the 10s. in the 20s sometimes. Wow. When the utilization rate goes really high. And I think the key thing with that is the interest rate model that we use is a three slope curve. And I think that works really, really well for high utilization assets. So let's say.

Can we define what that is? Yeah. So typically there is only one kink, right? Let's say like it's here and then it's here. given whatever utilization rate you want to set the interest rate to be higher, what we do differently in V1 and also going to adjust in V2 as well. Right now, the V2 is not three curve, three slope curve yet. So in V1 is that it's going to be like this,

it's going to stable at around 80 to 90% utilization rate. So which means that at 80 to 90% utilization rate, the borrowers are paying fixed fee, I mean fixed borrowing API. And it was flat at 10% API, 10% borrowing API, which correlates to about 8% lending interest rates. And the fact that I tell you that, you know, typically it stays at 8% is because we want the borrowers to be at around 80% to 90% because we think this is the optimal for both borrowers and lenders. Lenders get high APY without risking the funds locking without having, without being able to withdraw. and then the borrowers get, you know, a fixed APY within this range, right? And then after 90%, it would go up really steeply,

so this gap is only 10% from 90 to 200%. So that's why when the utilization rate goes beyond 90%, borrowers typically just close their position because the APY to borrow the funds are too high now. So, yeah, with this three slope curve, it allows us to generate pretty high API. Okay, so the three slopes are there, a first long, slow slope where the interest increases a little bit, but not that much from zero to 80%.

And then from 80 to 90%, it stays flat at a relatively low, but still, well, not too low, I guess, but it stays flat from 80 to 90% utilization of the ether deposited. And then once you hit that 90%, it goes up really, really fast. because you can't get to 100% because that's bad. And so that plateau that you create offers stability in yield for the suppliers and the borrowers. And that just makes things more stable, which that's pretty clever. And so you're both incentivizing, you're incentivizing just capital efficiency. I think that's pretty elegant.

Yeah. So, you know, that's the math behind the high AP1 on lenders as well. And your second question, Ryan, you're asking, you know, what's the API on V2? Right? There are many assets. So right now we're migrating more of ETH and the pools and also the lenders from V1 to V2. So the API on EVE on V2 right now is about 5 to 6%. And then on stable coins, it's about 30%, including the Alpha APY2.

Yeah. Wow. Okay. All right. So David, he's a bit of a defy, DGEN. you know, not like me. So I know he's going to, he's going to use the borrowing side of Alpha Homora a whole bunch. But I'm a simple holder and I like yield.

You know, on my stable coins, I like yield on my ETH. So I might be more interested in lending. But what I'm having, what I want to understand if I'm to lend to something like Alpha Hamora, let's say I put my ETH in Alpha Homora is kind of the risk level, right? And so, you know, something like ETH V2 right now in, in the, staking. I can earn about 10%, maybe 11% Smyratern amount. Of course, my ETH is locked up, but it's a different story, but at least the risk I have there is kind of, hypothetically, should be protocol type risk, right? Or risk that ETH too never ships.

What sort of risk am I subjected to when I deposit into, into Elphalhaomora as a lender? And I know you mentioned some of this. I just want to wrap my head around it because I know there's smart contract risk. People are familiar with that with all DFI protocols. What other risks? You also mentioned some basically some risk on the, on the kind of the borrower side if they go underwater somehow. But can you walk me through that one more time to make sure I understand what kind of risk there might be? Sure. So when positions are underwater, which means that debt is more than collateral that they input it, then when that case happens, then the protocol would need to fund the funds from somewhere to cover that debt, right?

The first place that the protocol would find that fund is the insurance pool that we have, which is coming from the 20% of the borrowing interest rates that the borrowers are paying. And then once the protocol taps into that pool, and if there is the need to find more funds, then it would tap into the pool of the lending assets that will cover the funds. So I think it's more of, you can treat it as the secondary place that the protocol will look at. And only at the event in which liquidation, in which the positions are underwater. So in order to have a position to be underwater, that means that ratio would have to reach 100%.

And then when it hits 100%, no one is liquidating that position yet for a long time. because we give quite a huge buffer, even at liquidation, which means that when positions are at liquidation, the positions are not underwater yet. It has some room to allow price to swing. Within that room, depending on how fast price swing, but within that room, liquidators should already come to liquidate given the incentives that they get, right?

But somehow if they don't come in and price keeps swinging and position becomes underwater because that keeps rising and collateral remains the same, you know, then the mechanism would be to tap into the insurance pool and then later on the landing pool. Got it. Okay. So there's some backstops there. And I'm wondering, like, what would happen in the case of something like a Black Thursday that we saw? Man, it seems like a very distant memory, but it was less than a year ago when we had sort of a major, almost a black swan event of a pretty large eth drop in one day and maker, you know, keeper bots, liquidator bots had trouble keeping up and liquidating sort of the collateral positions. Could Alpha be subjected to something like that? So that too is a risk. And then also are

there Oracle risks involved here too? Yeah. Actually, before I jump into that, one thing that I forgot to mention is that on the lending side, this is actually similar to the other lending protocol. as well, in which that your funds are pretty much going to be subjected to the risk will be if the borrowers don't pay the debt, right? Because technically your funds are with the borrowers, and if the borrowers don't pay, then that's part of the funds. So that's similar to the other lending protocols. The difference is that, you know, utilization, well, not utilization, but yeah, the difference is that utilization on alpha homerra is usually higher than other lending protocol just on the basis of leverage new farming product itself, right?

So, yeah, so that's one thing to know that, you know, it's similar lending risk as you were to lend in the other protocols too. So now, back to your question, with Black Thursday, right? Yeah, so there are, you know, several scenarios that we try to make sure that the parameters take into account, including Black Thursday. However, you know, we have not simulated that scenario because we cannot simulate that scenario, right? So we try to mitigate as much as possible, given the parameters, especially, which means that when it's at liquidation point, we set a huge buffer still. So that's one way to mitigate that.

And another thing that is coming as well is that we are working with a number of liquidation protocols. to make sure that we not just limit to the bots or other liquid data in the space, but actually working with liquidation protocols to make sure that we have a strong backstop, you know, system. So one of the we're talking to is B protocol. So we're trying to see how we can leverage their technology that they have come up with as a backstop, 45 protocols, and see how we can fit with the whole puzzle here. That's crazy. B protocol.

So I've not even explored kind of liquidator protocols. They're entire protocols that are just made to liquidate. Is that right? Yeah, correct. So that's what they do. I just talked to them last week. So yeah, they're pretty new. So it's worth exploring, but we're also exploring on the tech side as well

to see if it would be. you know, easy and good to agey break. David, the money robots are getting smarter. It seems like I've got one question for you. Then we're going to pause for breaks. And then we are going to get to all of the community questions that are coming in. And that is like, it seems to me, Tasha, that you guys have taken an approach almost like Andre from WIRE and from Wi-Fi.

He came on, which is like, I'm just going to build the thing that I think the community needs right now, right? So it seems like you have, I'm not sure how your team did this, but you've figured something out in DFI that has very strong product market fit. And the reason I know this is because Alpha Hamara is a relatively new protocol is like how many months has it been live at this point? In four months. Four months. And you're already locking. I looked at some time today, close to 700,000 ETH, right?

That's like 1.2 billion ETH. Like it's an it's an eith eater. It's an eith monster that you've created. And that to me screams of product market fit. I'm just curious. So how did you do it? How did you? Was it just like kind of a guess that, hey, this is something that we think defy needs and

then you just built built toward that? Or are you defy users and you just like felt this case yourself? How did you find this product market fit so quickly? Yeah, so I think that's the key with finding and recruiting our team. We are, you know, our team are pretty much active defy users in the space and also passionate in the space. So they don't just work and encode and pretty much they are active users and reading Twitter, pretty much, you know, very into the whole ecosystem, right? So that means that all the ideas are actually coming from everyone, not just me or Nipun.

and we usually get various ideas from all the engineers all the time. And pretty much once we saw and once we realized that there's a huge gap in the east side, which means that there are so many ETH holders in the space, and if you go on any of the place that you can lend and earn the yields, the yields are really, really low. And I'm sure if you ask anyone who's holding EF, if you want high interest rate, I'm sure they would say yes. So then that gives a light-bob moment in which,

that we just need to find a way to innovate on the borrowing side and create an organic high lending API on ETH. And that would give a strong, you know, competitive edge and a good, you know, product market fit to begin with. And then we grow from there. We did not expect that there would be B2 so quickly as well. So I think everything is more on adjusting to what the market needs, like you mentioned. Yeah, super smart because as an ETH holder, I know, and there are many of us, Like we're strongholders. We've been through a bear market, right? And there's really not much you can do to generate interest on your ETH in DFI.

I mean, the best you could do is maybe put it in a crypto bank like a Celsius or a blockfire or something like that. But in DFI, aside from just staking it in ETH too, there's really not many places to put it to earn some interest. And you guys have created that. I think that is a huge part of your success. So, you know, hats off. But like, were you surprised by the volume of, Assets under management that you accrued in four months period of time. Did that even surprise you?

Yeah, that surprises me too. And I think it's great to not ignore that light bulb moment. And I think this gives more clarity that, you know, light bulb moments are really, really important. It may not be that idea that you think at that moment, but then if you just stick to it and find an angle that, you know, plays with that idea, then that should work. Especially if you've been in the space for quite some time, I think the value of light bulb moment will become more and more valuable. Yeah, just to put it into perspective for listeners, Alpha Hamura is locking up, or Alpha at large, yeah, Alpha Hamara is locking up 75,000 ether, where Avey is only locking up 420,000 ether, which is just crazy. You almost have them doubled, which is pretty cool. There are so many more things about Alpha that I want to get into, including Alva.

Alpha X and this pool of funds that is backstopping Alpha, Alpha Hamora. And so we're going to get into all of those details right after we get back from a break to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible. Synthetics is Ethereum's decentralized derivatives liquidity protocol. What does that mean? Synthetics is a platform for creating and trading synthetic assets, which are assets that are priced via an Oracle rather than bids or asks. Traders can use the Quenta Exchange, which hosts and trades all of the synthetic assets created by synthetics.

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defy behind it. Swapping assets on uniswap or earning yield in defy is at your fingertips. But with monolith, so are the groceries at your grocery store or the coffee at your coffee shop. Go to monolith.xyz to sign up and get your monolith visa card today. All right, guys, we are back with Tasha from Alpha, and we have talked all about Alpha Hamora. And there are a few more things we want to talk about. And then we're going to get into some listener questions. So if you are watching on the YouTube, first off, thanks for being there. And now is the time to get. get your questions in. While you are doing that, don't forget to hit that like button. And we'll get to those questions in a little bit. But I want to ask about AlphaX, because AlphaX is a

different product than Alpha Hamara. So Tasha, can you tell us about AlphaX? Yeah. So it actually came from the market demand again that we saw once we launched Alpha Hamara, right? That demand is that they want to use leverage you farming product. They want to use Alpha but they don't want to be in a position in which they're short in ETH. You know, to give more details on a Fahomora v1 in which all the leverage is based on ETH, if you supply not an equal amount and let's say you are supplying one ETH and you're borrowing one more ETH to a U-Farm on ETH sushi, right? And that means that one ETH has to be converted to sushi because you still need both

to provide liquidity and U-Farm. So that means that you're in a position of shorting one ETH because you're technically selling the ETH now. If the ETH price goes up, then that means you have to buy at a high price back to pay the loans, right? So when that's the case, then a lot of community members, a lot of users reached out to us saying that, you know, is there a way to hedge their positions? They don't want to short the ETH. So, you know, that gives another live-bop idea that, hey, we should actually just create another product that, will grow in its own area, but still provide this ability to hedge and provides synergy to Alpha Homora. So, you know, that's how we came across the idea of AlphaX, which is a non-order book,

decentralized perpetual swap trading product that will grow in this area and still provide Alpha Homora v2 users to be able to hedge their positions. So when we launch AlphaX, there will be a simple UI for users to just click hedge and then, you know, taking through the whole process and open another long position on AlphaX to make sure that they're both in a market-neutral leveraged position. So that's, you know, on the high level. I can talk more about, you know, how AlphaX is unique from the other, you know, protocols in this space and what do we look to grow AlphaX into. Yeah, do that. And is it out yet? Or is it, when is it coming? It's in private test net right now.

So we're working on adjusting the parameters based on the data that we have got from the private test nets. And then, you know, depending on how much we have to adjust on the parameters or on the smart contract, usually not on the smart contract level, but more on the parameters to ensure that it's scales and also safe to use. And then the next step would be to launch public test net. So, yeah, a bit more about AlphaX is. that, you know, the fact that it's non-order book is already a good thing, which means that you don't have to disrupt liquidity to be able to trade on Alpha X, right? Another thing that is, you know, really unique about AlphaX is that, which is what I mentioned

earlier, is we baked in the funding payments or funding rate payments into the price. So which means that on AlphaX, there is only one price, whether you open a position, whether you close a position, that's the price you're doing it against, right? And in order for us to simplify the funding rate payments, we bake that concept into this price. So which means, for instance, if the long were to have to pay the short, then we would shift this price down automatically. So the long would not have to pay the short, but if the long were to close a position, they would close at a lower price than if they were to close before the adjustment. So hence they are paying the short indirectly by default.

So that's the one main thing that's unique about AlphaX. The second thing that I really like is that the positions, the leverage positions on AlphaX are tokenized. It's going to be wrapped into ERC20. So which means that, you know, wherever AlphaX is, be it on Ethereum, be it on L2, which we are exploring as well, users can still unlock that interoperability, because once you port that your C-20 out from L2 to the other protocols in L1, then you will be able to use more benefits and do more things with this tokenized positions.

Very cool. All right. Well, Tasha, you've teed us up for our first reader question here. So this is from someone in the bankless Discord asking about your layer two strategy. you just mentioned that Alpha is exploring it. What are you exploring? What looks good in layer two? And what are you planning to implement? Yeah. So we're actively talking to various layer two protocols looking to deploy, you know, Alpha X on layer two. So, so, you know, this is the next step for Alpha X. We're actively evaluating various layer two. The fact that the positions are tokenized makes it the you know makes it still possible to interoperate interoperate with the other protocols so that's why we decided to you know start first with alpha x beyond how to um typically when

we when we build the products on alpha finance lab right we don't like to have the product operate as a standalone product we like to have it as an ecosystem even with alpha homoara there's a huge partners and ecosystem that it, you know, partners with. With AlphaX, we're using the tokenized positions as the way to create an ecosystem for AlphaX. So, yeah, depending on which L2 we're going to choose, the public test net should also be on that L2 as well. So that will be upcoming in the near term future. And Tasha, do you have any like general directions as Fars L2, are you thinking more like optimistic roll-ups or ZK roll-ups or something else entirely? Yeah, we're thinking more on the optimistic roll-up. So we're actively talking to various

protocols in that area. Very cool. Thank you. So we have a question from Carl in the bankless YouTube about the alpha token. And this is a question that I have as well. What role does the alpha token play in the alpha finance ecosystem? So we actually have finalized the alpha tokenomics. And we actually have started working on the technical details, writing the smart contract, adjusting Alpha Homora B2 to bake in that alpha tokenomics. So I think that's the high level that I wanted to share. I think another thing that is good to know now is that there are multiple

factors in the alpha tokenomics. So when we create something, we don't just create from a one layer or one perspective. We try to always be more creative and innovate something that we do, right? So that's the same for alpha to economics. So there's one component that is similar to other protocols. And then there's another component that is also something new and creative. And we're really excited on launching a combination of both. So yeah, more details to be to be shared. I'll make sure to share as fast as possible when we can and making sure that we explain very thoroughly on the new idea that we have come up with. Are you viewing your token as kind of part of an ecosystem as well? So one token across all of the alpha products. Is that right?

Correct. Yes. And another question that I've been seeing a lot in the bankless YouTube comments. is about that insurance fund, which I promise to come back to towards the end of this podcast. So here we are. There's an insurance fund that you guys have that is backstopping some of the activity going on in Alpha Hamora. But Alpha seems to be having a, there seems to be a social contract of capital efficiency. So what else is this insurance fund going to be used for? Is this going to be tapped into in any other sorts of ways in the future?

Yeah, actually, it's going to be related to the Alpha Technologies. So that should be a spoiler. Spoiler alert. Nice, David. Well done. Very good. Another question came in on Twitter, and this was, I think, from a developer. So we'd love to understand Alpha's plans to allow developers to build on Alpha.

You've mentioned in the past, Tasha, that there was this possibility. So any thoughts on timing, what you'd like people to build? and the person is asking because he is one of the people who actually wants to build on Alpha. So what can you tell developers about building on Alpha at this point? Yeah. So I think at this point, you know, myself and the team, we have to grow the community initiatives a lot more, including, you know, more grants, more growing the developer, mind share for the whole ecosystem. So that's in progress.

And pretty much, you know, in the meantime, as that's, you know, in the meantime, as that's being grown out. If you have any particular idea you want to build on top of Alpha Homora, on top of AlphaX, or any other upcoming Alpha products, feel free to reach out directly to me on Discord. Although I reply a little bit slow, but, you know, I reply. So just DM me and with ideas or anything like that. For the long-term solution, you know,

we're going to build out more of a decentralized grant. then pretty much allowing developers in the space to be able to contribute and be able to have a say on what should be built on alpha products. You guys did get praised so far in these YouTube comments from someone. I remember reading a comment about how attentive and patient some of the explanations out of your guys' Discord was. So the Discord is the community gathering place for so many of these protocols. So having a good one is really important. So nice job there. Another question that we have out of the YouTube is, are there any teasers on what pools they are looking to add to the four that they currently have available in V2 already?

Yeah, so more pools are upcoming. A bit teaser just for bangless listeners and an audience are, you know, if Wi-Fi is coming, you would also be able to take a leverage on Wi-Fi. So that also means that users can lend Wi-Fi as well. So there will be an IB Wi-Fi token generating high yields on Wi-Fi. And then the same mindset will grow to, you know, other assets like DPI, SNX, and so on and so forth. I-B-Y-F-I-I.I. Wow, that sounds crazy. There are some alpha leaks on our alpha conversation. Yeah, had to fit that one in, David. You know how it's going there.

Another question coming in from bankless Discord this time is actually about your partnership with WIREN. So what has Alpha gained from partnering with YERN up to this point? So I think a lot of times, you know, the gains are more long-term and relationship building. And I think we're here for the long-term perspective, right? So sometimes the gains are not quantified to or we get X amount of loans or X amount of, you know, lending assets on the product. But I think it's the relationship that we have built in a sense that whatever we do, we will try to benefit the partners.

And same for the partners. Whatever they do, they would try to be wary of us and make sure it's something beneficial to us. So that's on the long term, right? On the short term, Andre and Jern itself actually have been lending through Alfa-Homora v2 as well. So to give more color on that, you know, the urine V2 dye and USC bolts, these are lending on Alpha Homeworld right now to pretty much grow the liquidity pool of lending assets for the leverage you farmers to take the leverage on. So that's on the short term. And, you know, once we find more angles that we can work together, and then it will grow from there.

And, you know, we're using cream as the liquidity place that we take the liquidity from to allow leverage users to take leverage, right? So cream is also a part of urine ecosystem. And integrating with cream also helps grow the urine ecosystem too. Oh, curious. So why cream? I think because of several things. I think when we were building AlphaHoma V2, cream was at the injection point in which urine just acquired or like, you know, yeah, acquired a cream. So they were up for a new change, right?

And I think in order for a lending protocol to allow Alpha Homora and pretty much white list Alpha Homora contract, they themselves have to adjust their contract to. So cream would have to, you know, adjust on their code saying that they would white list Alpha Homora v2 and allow alpha-homer-vitu to borrow in an under-collarolized way. And cream was up for that because he's at an injection point. And we are also close to Andre to begin with. So, you know, it's kind of like pretty easy to talk to. And I think he has a lot of good ideas to pretty much find a way to grow alpha and urine

ecosystem as a whole. Okay, a bankless member is asking about the harvest function on V2 and said that the cost is $500 in gas at 100, at 100, Guay. Why is it not optimized better? Do you guys have any plans to continue to optimize gas costs in Alpha-Homara V2? Yeah, I think several points to that, right? First point is that Alpha-Homora does a number of operations for the users. the more complex your strategy is, the more gas cost is going to cost.

So what determines complex strategy, right? So let's say if you are supplying only die to the curve three pool and you are borrowing, you know, 75% USDT, 10% die, 10% USDC. So it's pretty complex. Then that means that all of these have to be gone through a number of operations to make sure that you provide liquidity in, you know, same proportion. on curve, which already has pretty high gas to begin with, comparing to other AMM protocols to get the CRV token.

So to prevent high gas costs, one way to do it is to simplify the operations on the uses end. On our end, though, there are several things that we're looking to do as well. One thing is, you know, we understand that claiming the farm token can cost a lot, especially now when the gas cost is really, really high. And there have been a lot of committee members wanting to put up a proposal to create another option to reinvest.

So that is something that we're looking into as well for users who don't want to pay high gas fees and still want to claim the rewards. They could be able to choose the reinvest button. It's still to be determined, the community members would still have to put up the proposal. and evaluating through the risk primitives as well. Another question that came in was about, so synthetics recently launched synthetic stocks, starting with Tesla, so S-Tesla,

everyone's favorite in crypto these days. Does Alpha plan to incorporate any of these assets, the idea of a trustless, decentralized, kind of synthetic stock is pretty appealing, especially in the U.S. when exchanges like Robin Hood are shutting down our game stop stocks. Any plans around this? Wow, you're actually leading me into more alpha leagues.

Oh, okay. Perfect. This is what our jobs are for. Found one. Yeah, so, so, you know, that's something in our radar and we're working towards it. So I would not say it's not going to happen. but also don't want to commit on any timeline. Would that be like a separate product in your ecosystem, do you think?

Or would that be kind of something that could be incorporated into the two existing products? More on the incorporating into the existing. Very cool. So a lot of what we're talking about is, especially with Alpha Homora, AlphaX, partnership with Andre and Yern and all that stuff. That's all on chain stuff. And so I have a question on the bankless YouTube about what are you driving, doing to drive usage on the social side of things, the human side of things?

Like, is there a marketing department? Is there a business development? What's that side of things like? Good question. I think that's very important. And typically, you know, we just focus, you know, a lot on the product, understanding the product and everything. Yeah, we have a marketing and business development department. And pretty much the way that we work with our partners is, even if there's nothing that we can do together yet,

we still would like to get in touch early in case there's anything that we can do for other alpha products, right? Because we're always going to be thinking of new products, new solutions to the space. So the more we know the better. So we can see, you know, oh, this product would actually benefit this partner

and we can work together on, you know, this new product. So that's been, you know, pretty ongoing and actively driven by the BD and marketing team. Tasha, this has been a fantastic conversation. I learned so much. This has been an AMA that, you know, I personally probably learned the most out of, of any AMAs that we've done previously.

So thank you for that. You guys have built a phenomenal product with some great product market fit, and you're doing a great job. So well done, and thanks for joining us on bankless. Thank you so much, David, Ryan, and everyone in the Bangladesh community. And Tasha, if anyone listening, any listeners on the YouTube or listeners on the podcast, want to go learn more about Alpha, where should they go?

How can they join your guys' community? Yeah, so first place is you can go to the website. The website has everything, link to Discord, link to Twitter, Telegram, link to all the blog posts that we write, all the documents. So, you know, everything is aggregated on the website. So it's alphafinance.io. and then you can go anywhere in our community from there. Well, fantastic.

Well, Bankless Nation, this has been another AMA. One thing we want to tell you before we let you go, there is a consensus conference that is coming. May 24th, I will be there, David will be there. We just learned that Ray Dalio will be there. And if you sign up now, you can get $20 off that conference. Definitely check that out if that's something you're interested in. way more fun to attend crypto conferences during the bull market. We are definitely in a bull market

for the ages. So check that out. Tasha, thanks again for being with us. Of course, risks and disclaimers, everyone, ETH is risky. So is DFI. So is Bitcoin. We didn't talk much about Bitcoin these days, but we did talk about how to put your ETH into Alpha Hamora. And be careful, of course, you could lose what you put in. None of this has been financial advice. But this is the frontier. It's not for everyone, but we're glad you're with us on bankless today. Thanks a lot. And if you are on the bankless YouTube, make sure we get Tasha and Alpha to the front page by liking the video and also subscribing to the channel for future AMAs and all the future content that comes out of the bankless YouTube.

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