Bankless - Crypto's Everything App | Base's Creator, Jesse Pollak

Episode Date: July 26, 2025

The internet is broken for creators, and Base thinks it has the fix. Jesse Pollak joins Bankless to unveil the Base app, a crypto-powered everything app where posts earn, creators own, and mini apps go viral. From meme coins to market-based social media, this might be the start of a new onchain economy. —- 📣BANKLESS TV | BASE DAY https://x.com/BanklessHQ/status/1948769160932327886 —- BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 🪙FRAX | SELF SUFFICIENT DeFi https://bankless.cc/Frax 🦄UNISWAP | SWAP ON UNICHAIN https://bankless.cc/unichain 🛞MANTLE | MODULAR LAYER 2 NETWORK https://bankless.cc/Mantle 🌐BINANCE | THE WORLDS #1 CRYPTO EXCHANGE https://bankless.cc/binance 🦎 COINGECKO API | REAL-TIME CRYPTO PRICE & MARKET DATA https://bankless.cc/coingecko —- TIMESTAMPS 0:00 Intro 1:04 The Vision of BASE 3:11 The Everything App 6:10 The Future for Creators 10:13 Earning Through Engagement 14:29 Crafting the Perfect Content 20:54 The Rise of Mini Apps 23:59 Monetization and the Free Market 25:52 Addressing Creator Concerns 29:23 Closing Thoughts on BASE —- RESOURCES Jesse https://x.com/jessepollak Base https://x.com/base —- Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures

Welcome Bankless Nation to Bankless TV on this episode of Bankless TV. We are covering the base ecosystem. That's right. It's base day on Bankless TV. And to kick off base day, we are bringing on the creator of Bass. Jesse Pollock, Jesse, good to have you on. Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.

Happy Base Day. Happy base day. Yeah, Fridays are Base Day. And then every other base day, every other day is base day as well. I believe that's how that works. I think that's right. It is base era. So we like to think every day is base day.

I thought your guys' naming of your marketing, your announcement day of a new day one was pretty clever. Because it's like, okay, it's actually the next thing, but it's still day one. It's still day one. It's the next chapter. It really felt natural for us because we were unveiling a new brand. We were kind of bringing a new product experience that led a lot more people in the world actually experience based firsthand in a way that's understandable to market. but I think with both of those, we felt like it was still very early.

Right. We haven't solved any of the problems fully yet. We have, I think, a good line of sight on how we're going to, but we have so much more work to do. And so that mindset of it's still day one, we got a lot more work to do is really important for the team. My understanding of the base app is it is the just consumer front end to the base chain. And so blockchains are plumbing.

Blockchains are software. They are back-end infrastructure. But we know that they can be more than just plain, asset ledgers, they can do more than that. And to me, when I saw the presentation of the base app, it was like, oh, this is, this is Coinbase, this is Jesse, putting a cosmetic, interactive, consumer-pointing, you know, way to interact with base.

Is that how you think about it? I think that's roughly right. Two slight shifts, I would say. One is that we think that the base app is going to be your front door to everything on chain. So it's not just base chain. Base chain is like a component of the infrastructure, but we really always thought about base as being a bridge on an island.

We want to make it possible for everyone to come and do whatever they want on chain, whether that's on base chain or somewhere else. And so that's the mindset we're going to be bringing towards this. And then to your broader point, I think that that's actually like exactly right. You know, the thing that we've seen over the last two years is that we've really clearly articulated this vision of bringing the world on chain, of building a global economy, but really the only people who it's resonated with have been builders. Because they could actually get in the weeds and like build on base chain and experience,

oh my God, this is such a better developer platform for all the things I want to do. And then they could connect that up to this idea of the global economy and this new next generation of the internet that we're building. But when we talk to our friends and family or the random person on the street, we were like, we're building a global economy. And they were like, what are you talking about? And we were then like, here's Coinbase wallet. And like, bases in here.

And like, they just didn't get it. We did not have a product that matched the vision. And really the way I think about the base app is that for the first time, and we have a product that matches division. The base app is an everything app. You can come in, you can post, you can earn, you can chat with your friends, you can explore thousands of apps,

you can trade, you can pay, and all of it works in this totally seamless, interoperable, connected app that is available to anyone in the world. And that I think is the first time where we've really had that consumer experience where I could give that to my mom and I have given it out to my mom and my friends

and people immediately get it. And they're like, oh, this is fucking awesome. And then they resonate with this idea of we're building a new global economy. We're building the next generation of the internet because they can actually experience themselves firsthand. In 2025, it seems to be there's a convergence of a bunch of different companies attempting to build out a new social media platform. And I know the base app is an everything app. And so it's social plus other things. And we'll talk about other things.

But I want to focus on the social side for just a moment. We have brewing rumors that Sam Altman and Open AI want to build out a social. media application that goes hand in hand with chat GPT. And you can kind of squint and you can integrate like world ID, his investment with world ID into that same whole thing, like making sure a proof of personhood based social media application. And then there's been a number of temps of just like, you know, next generation social media apps, kind of as an understanding of like web two is like kind of cooked. Like my Twitter experience is just so broken. The reply guys are terrible. You know, Reddit is, indistinguishable from bots.

You know, Instagram, Snapchat, these highly social Web2 apps are pretty buffered from the penetration of AI. But there's a lot of like Web2's social media platforms that don't really seem to be trending in the best direction. And so downstream of that, there's been a lot of investment into building out a new social media app.

And now Coinbase and Base have a social media app. If you look at, if you go open up the base app, I think that would be somebody's like first impression if they didn't know exactly what's behind the scenes here, they're downloading this app and be like, oh, this is a social media app. I think that's probably a pretty fair, justified first impression. How do you think about that in the grand scheme of just like social media broadly? Yeah, well, I think over the last 20 years, we've seen that there's been so much good that come with social media on the internet, right? Like for the first time, you've given, you know,

hundreds of millions of people a platform where they could share their creativity, their thoughts, they could connect with people all around the world. But at the same time, well, I think that provided a lot of good. The realities of the way those social media platforms worked meant that for the most part, the creators who are actually bringing their creativity to the internet have kind of gotten a raw deal in the economics of all of it. If you look at the economics, like creators earn less than 5% of the overall earnings of these big platforms.

And I think what that's led to is basically you have this like bubbling discontent where people are feeling like, oh, there's some good stuff here, but also there's something fundamentally broken in how this is working for me as a creator because I'm the one who's bringing my creativity to these platforms and then someone else is profiting off it. And so that bubbling discontent, that's something that I think I hear and see in like every first conversation about the base app where people intuitively and immediately get it. They understand, oh, the existing system is broken and we need to build a new system. And this is the way we think about the base app. It's not just a new social media app. It's really the first time where I think we've started to see

what a social media app and a super app can look like when it is built on open protocols. You know, base is built on Ethereum. And then it's built on XMTP and Farcaster and Zora and aerodrome and Uniswap. We've basically stitched together all of these open protocols that work together because they're built on the shared foundation and made it so that when you post in base app, you earn. Because the new foundation, this decentralized foundation, that we're building on is actually structured in such a way that it's built for creators. And it's built for the people who are using the apps that they benefit from their creativity. And I think that is this sea change that it's a little bit hard to see if you're new to the

space because it still looks the same. But it's almost like we've swapped out the engine of the plane while we're still flying it. And now we have this new foundation that we can build on that's going to unlock a ton of value for creators. and I think unlock a ton of just opportunity in terms of what we can do from a product experience perspective. I think mini apps are a great example of this. One of the things we get from building on this open platform is that we have these composable mini apps that just work in the feed and just work in messaging. So you can be scrolling the feed and see something cool, tap it, and immediately check out.

And that whole experience is built by a third-party developer where they can control their user experience there. Then you can send that to your friend in a group chat and they can do the same thing. And so I just think we're just starting to scratch the surface on this, but I do think that we've kind of started like a shift. That's a pretty big one to this new way of building. I'm going to share my screen here and show some tweets and talk about some of the commentary that has come out of the announcement of the base app. So this one is from Nikiel Eath.

Just got a special invite to the base app. First impression would be it's the everything app, payments, social apps, chats, crypto, you name it. Everything is here. I think that's kind of highlighting some of the maybe superpowers that I think you've integrated into the base app. There's a lot of protocols that are integrated. Like you said, the base chain is integrated built on Ethereum.

And eight other EVM chains, including Ethereum and optimism and Arbitrum and Polygon and Avalanche. And so, again, we really want to make sure it's not just base chain. This is an app that gives you access to everything in the on-chain economy. Solana and others coming soon. Certainly. And that's just the chain side of things. There's also like the Farcasser client.

There's just a bunch of protocols that you've kind of just legowed together to build this experience that other social media apps just don't have some of the superpowers you have because you've integrated all these protocols, mainly money and money and tokens and finance and things related to blockchains. And I thought this tweet was pretty cool. This is from a content creator who makes a bunch of clips on Twitter. And he tweeted out, going viral on your first base app post and immediately getting a stream of creator earnings is an absolutely insane onboarding experience.

And this man is just scrolling down saying like 0.01, 0.02, Eath receiving from people onboarding into the base app. Now, this is a, this individual. This is really a crazy experience, and this is what we're seeing really resonates with creators, and it's not just Jack. You know, Jack made a few viral posts, and I think he earned a couple thousand dollars. You know, another woman, Sierra made a viral post yesterday. She earned like $3,000, or maybe it was $8,000.

I forget what. But the thing that we're seeing is that that experience of, even if it's just a few cents, posting something, and then immediately earning. and it's not like, oh, you have to get X followers. Oh, you have to live in Y country. Oh, you have to wait 60 days for a payout. The immediacy of my content is valuable. And I'm earning for it is really, really profound.

And that's something that's when creators come in, it's hooking them. And I think they're almost like feeling this realignment where they're feeling this discontent with the existing system. And then they experience this post and earn moment. and they're like intuitively grocking it. They're like, oh, I get it. And now I get it. And I want to keep posting here. And I think one thing that's really important about this is, you know, some people are

going to say, oh, but only some posts are going to go viral and you're going to earn. Or they look at my creator earnings or Brian's creator earnings. Brian earned like $150,000 over the last week of posting. I've earned like $30,000 over last week of posting. And they're like, oh, but Jesse and Brian are special. And the truth is that, A, of course you're not going to earn and go viral on every post. That's just like social media. there's going to be a small number of posts that go viral

where you earn the outsized amount of your money. And then, of course, people with big audiences, I have 300,000 followers. Brian has, you know, however many million followers. They're going to earn more. That's because they have more distribution. And so that means it's easier for them to go viral. And so I think that, you know, people are looking for a reason

why this isn't going to work. And I actually think if you start to put the hat on of like, holy crap, look at how well it's working right now when there's like so few people using this. And then extrapolate that to like 100 million people or a billion people in the network, all interacting with surface areas where it's all interconnected with this value layer. I think there's just so much opportunity. We haven't even really seen it get started.

So we as a society have seen social media apps, enough social media apps come where we kind to understand a little bit of the science about how they grow. And there's like that rule of thumb out there that like the people that are big on Twitter aren't necessarily big on Instagram. And yes, you can like port your audience. a big Instagram earner can come to the base app sign up and then get onboarded with a little bit of just like a bump just because they're already,

they already have influence in one domain. But really, the big people on Twitter grew with Twitter. And they invested in Twitter specifically. And they learned to make their tweets resonate with the form factor. And so, you know, there's one strategy for growing the base app, which is like, let's get some of the biggest influencers and get them on the base app. But also, there's going to be the organic strategy of,

well, this is a net new consumer behavior. There's going to be net new people that are successful on the social media side of the base app that learn to build content that resonates with the form factor of the base app. Talk about the strategy of growing that cohort of people. Yeah, 100%. And of course, we're going to go get existing creators with scaled audiences. We're already seeing that. People are coming over.

Gary Vee, for instance. He's like so fired up about the base app. He's coming over. He's earning. He's making money. He's getting involved in that. But I do think that you're actually spot on that the biggest opportunity is for new creators. It's the people who have creativity inside of them and have been looking for where to express it.

And the opportunity for them with base is to get in early and to start building an audience from the ground floor with us. Because right now there's only a few thousand people in the base app. And we build on Farcasters. So there's probably another few 10,000 people kind of in the network overall who are using it daily. but if you come in right now and you start posting, you start building an audience, you have the opportunity to grow with us. And so I don't think you should be coming into the base app and being like, oh, immediately I'm just going to have massive distribution. Instead, you should be coming to the base app and saying, I'm early. And if I am good and early, there is outsized potential for me

to earn in this new network that's being built right here. And the thing that we're looking for, so if you're out there and you're a creator, the thing that I'll say to you is we are going across every single content vertical, particularly video content, fitness, food, makeup, you know, small business, like any content vertical, you name it. And we're trying to find the up-and-coming creators who don't have a big audience on the existing platforms. And then we're going to do everything we can to make you successful, make them successful. Because those are the people who are going to help build this next generation of the internet.

And so if that's you, if you have a content type that you're really into, but you don't have a big audience or you're not earning right now on existing social platforms, come to the base app. And we're going to help you earn, we're going to help you grow. You're going to grow with us.

And then you're going to benefit from this collective force that's coming into this new economy that we're building. And the really, really important thing about this is that you can be anywhere. Anywhere.

Anywhere in the world, you can download the base app, you can get started, and you can get started earning. And that means that the opportunity is basically open, for everyone in the world, and it's a level playing field for everyone in the world. Because you're starting at the ground floor.

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It aligns with a certain style of content and that style of content has been optimized to go viral on Instagram or, you know, same thing for Twitter. Certain content goes viral on Twitter, and it wouldn't really necessarily go viral anywhere else. So if we're extending that same lesson to the base app, there's going to be a certain form factor of content that is uniquely suited to go viral on the base app. And it leverages, it's going to leverage some of the features of the base app,

mainly those creator earnings, probably. And so the things that people are going to optimize for, the posters, the content creators, creators are going to optimize for, are going to be unique to the base app. And those are they're going to learn how to truly optimize their income, optimize their revenue. What do you think that looks like? What kind of content do you think you guys are emergently optimizing for at the base app

because you guys are just hooked into chain features such as like creator earnings? Yeah, well, the first thing I'll say is that I do think a lot of people, their head goes to like, how do we do like these economic systems with the creator earnings to like do something, you know, kind of crazy, fancy there and that's going to be the thing. and I'm less convinced that that's actually going to be the thing. What we're seeing mostly from creators is that once they turn on the monetization, they just stop thinking about it. It's not this active choice where they're like,

oh, now this is this new mechanic. I need to go do it. And it's like consuming my headspace. It's like, oh, no, now it's on and it just works and then money comes in. And I actually think that that's going to fade more and more into the background as people just normalize the fact that your content's valuable and you earn from it. And so I'm sure there's going to be interesting experience. experiments, but I wouldn't suggest that people get overly myopic on like, that's the primary thing

to do. The things that I think are going to go viral, two things that I think are kind of traditional, and then one that's novel. The two things that are traditional, like starting to go viral is one video content. Like, I just think video content, like on Instagram and TikTok, is going to work. And you're going to be speaking to an audience. It's going to be more global. You're going to have to figure out how to dial that in. But video content is really, really important. And like I said, we're going across every content vertical right now. We're trying to figure out how do we get a handful of really good creators in each vertical so that there's actually good content for consumers to actually engage with.

And so I think that that's the first thing. The second thing is, you know, crypto Twitter, you know, chip posting, whatever you want to call it, like, you know, kind of a little bit high-minded text-based posting that, you know, can kind of bootstrap off this network that's being built there. I think that that's going to work successfully as well. The content format that I'm actually most excited about that's totally novel is mini apps. And that's enabled by this kind of open platform

and enabled by the chain is you can build a mini app and you can distribute that mini app through the feed or through messaging and it can go viral. And then that can be an experience that someone is one tap away from where they can just get started doing the thing. Some of those are little mini games.

You can imagine commerce where it's like one tap checkout. You can imagine all these. these other like little mechanics where people are earning and and kind of like sharing funds with friends. But that kind of ability to turn the the host into this canvas that anyone can build and that anyone can make, you know, a viral hook, I think that that's probably the biggest net new form factor that will kind of open up the opportunity for people to build in a new way. And so those are the three things that I'm most excited about. It's one video across a bunch of non-crypto surfaces in content areas, two, kind of like traditional crypto Twitter posting,

and then three mini-apps and the viral potential that's baked into those. Make a viral mini-app. I just vibe-coded some mini-app that's capturing the zeitgeist, right? There was that one like vibe-coded, find the couple at the Colplay concert that went pretty viral, and it has something like a million users, and it was this very kind of stupid little app that people are having a ton of fun on, and it was just vibe-coded in an afternoon, and it went viral. If I build that app or some other app that goes viral, do I have access to that same creator rewards monetization that like all the other content does?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, and we're still trying to figure out how to work all these things together, right? Like there's the monetization that's associated with the post and the monetization that's associated with the app and then the monetization that's associated with the reshares of that post. And so I will say it's still early. Like it's day one.

We're trying to figure it out as we go. But the pieces are all there. and now it's mostly about kind of like stitching them together in the right form factor. So here's just to give an example of this is right now on kind of all post by default monetization is on. So that means it'll get coined. It'll trade. People can kind of speculate on the attention. People can collect it if they want to support you. And then you're going to earn fees from that. When someone quote posts your quote, monetization is off. And that's like we don't want people to be quote posting and then like kind of stealing the value from other people. But I'm actually not

convinced that that's the right long-term solution. Someone yesterday said, when you quote post, you should pair the coin of the quote post with the existing coin. Because that means that every time someone buys the quote post, what it actually is doing is going out to the open market, buying the previous coin, and then locking up in the bonding curve to get the quote post. And so you kind of created this daisy chain where the quote post monetization is getting fed back into the underlying post monetization. And so this is one of the really, really cool things that's opened up from a kind of surface area perspective in terms of how we can build by building all this on chain and by turning everything into a coin is that we can compose all these coins.

Zora is doing this another way where you know, you create a creator coin that's kind of long running and then each piece of content you post is paired with that creator coin. And so that all demand for your content is also demand for your creator point. We're going to be bringing that into a base app as well, starting with letting people import those creator coins so you can just use yours and it will be auto-paired. And so that kind of mechanism and the ability for us to kind of like route all of this value and compose it in new novel ways. I'm so excited about the potential there. And I think there's a lot of stigma about coins that we're still working through candidly.

People are very fearful about them. But when you just look at the surface area of what we can do with them and then you look at the real world experiences that people are having with them, like real creators, I think it's pretty incredible. And I'm just so excited about the opportunity. Right. It sounds like you are trying to plumb together this network, finding, tweaking the right balance of like, you know, we have algorithms and social in Web 2. And this now the same algorithm is actually more about like, okay, payouts. What's the right way to balance a payout in the right way and orchestrate it? And rather that being the algorithm that goes viral, it's the payout mechanism.

It's the market. It's the market. It's the market. It's the market. It's a market. What we've basically done is we've taken all this content that we know is incredibly valuable because people have built truly. billion dollar businesses around it, multiple trillion dollar businesses around it. And we've brought it on chain into the free market where before it was one corporation that was valuing that thing

and then monetizing it through things like advertising or subscriptions or whatever other monetization method that they chose. And we're saying, no, now we're going to let the free market value your content. And then we're going to kind of use the free market and all the kind of like economic offflows that come from the free market to reroute that value back to the creators and back to the people who are engaging with the content. And we think that that is just a much stronger foundation for us to build this next generation of social networks. I think the concept of a market-based algorithm, social media algorithm can nerdsnipe a bunch of people. And I'm looking forward to seeing that.

Yeah. I think that there's a lot of like, yeah, there's a lot of cultural stigma and resistance to this. But if you look at the truth is what has the best product market fit in crypto? It's coins. Right. Yeah. Always. Right.

And whether those are pump meme coins or those are ICOs. like it's always been coins and that's because it's the most liquid most composable form factor that's actually pretty easy for people to understand. Like I was onboarded my trainer that I work with this morning

and I was like yeah like every post is an asset and people can buy it and you earn from it. You're your gym trainer, personal trainer? You're like hey download the base app and go via. You know we talk about all this stuff And I was like, yeah, the base app, and I was like, you can, you can post and, you know, earn and do chat?

And he was like, can I get that now? Like, it wasn't me, like, forcing it on him. Like, for the first time, the messaging actually really resonated. And he just made his first post and, you know, he earned like, whatever, $10 on it. And, you know, now he's going to keep posting fitness content. I was like, we need more fitness content. And long is enough. I do want to give a voice to the skeptics for a moment.

This is a tweet that's going around from Brooke Lacey, who is just giving her honest take about what she experienced as a creator. She onboarded the base app. And she just basically voiced a concern about, you know, people flipping coins that she created because she's a content creator. And in order for her to get paid, she had to quote, I had to dump on them to get paid. And so she's a creator.

She meant to the coin. And she felt like in order to monetize the work, she had to dump the coins. I think this kind of what you're talking about, which there's this like stigma around tokens and all this kind of stuff. But I think this is kind of giving a voice to some of the people that aren't totally convinced about this model yet, where we are really encouraging this consumer behavior that we've never really seen happen on its own before. Like, collecting content inside of social media app is like a novel concept to basically everyone. And I think, you know, crypto people understand it.

But the rest of the world, like it seems like we are trying to really bootstrap this consumer behavior that we haven't seen before. So what gives you the conviction that this is right? Yeah, it's a new consumer behavior. and we have a lot more work to do, A, to get it in the perfect form factor, and then B, to explain it, because it is complex. But I do want to just respond to this directly, which is she says, and I had to dump on them to get paid. And Aniri, who's leading our social team, just jumped in and replied, and I replied as well. But I want to be really clear to creators, you do not need to dump your coins to get paid. And from where I'm sitting, I would not advise that you dump your coins.

I think that it's short-sighted. There's two ways you earn. One is from the attention and the fees that are generated whenever someone buys or sells your coin. And that's just a stream of value to you. Anytime someone buys a little bit or sells a little bit, you're going to get paid. And then two is that you earn 1% when you create that thing. And so, you know, whenever the attention is going up, you're going to see more trading activity. And that's going to be this ongoing stream.

If you look at that and you say, oh, but this post is small, I didn't earn that much, well, not every post goes viral. Some posts are going to go viral and you're going to earn a ton from the fees. Some aren't going to go viral and you're going to earn less from the fees. But the thing to know is that if you don't sell, I think you're more likely to go viral in the future. Because there's actually people who are going to want to collect your content. Because if you're selling every piece of content, you're saying, I don't believe in this content. And so again, there's education. Invest their confidence.

It's not in. Yeah, a little bit. But also it's just like, you know, if someone was like, you know, selling everything that they got, I would want to invest in that content or back them either. And so, again, like, I don't think this is on her. Like, we have to do a better job explaining all this. But my guidance, and I think in Neary said it here, is like, don't sell that 1%. It's not worth it.

Like, keep posting. Some of your posts are going to go viral. You're going to earn. Brian Armstrong earned $150,000. He sold none. I earned like $30,000. I sold none. Sierra earned like $3,000.

She sold none. Like, people are earning a lot of money just from the fees. And I think that's the sustainability. way, whereas a creator you're monetizing your attention, and then you're just holding your ownership because it's cool to own your content. And if you just do that, then you can stop worry, right? You don't need to be feeling like, oh, am I dumping on my holders? Am I doing something wrong? No, you're not. All you're doing is earning from the attention. But you're holding your content just like you're, you know, everyone else is. And that's something that you can be proud of because it's awesome to own your

content and to participate in this new system. Well, Jesse, congratulations on a brand new day one. And right now I'm about to bring on Alex from Aerodrome right after you for the second episode of Base Day. What should I ask Alex? What are you excited about Aerodrome? How does Aerodrome fit into the base app or what do you think I should talk to him about? Yeah, I guess two things. And one is just building on this conversation. You know, Alex was a skeptic about content coins and kind of like how they worked and whether they would be good. And then he's kind of gone full circle where he's actually a really big believer now. And so I think it's worth asking him. Like, what changed? What did he see? What was his experience? I generally find it's always good to hear from skeptics who are kind of had

their perspective change just because, you know, it's a new perspective. And I'll just say I was a skeptic too. The first time Jacob Horne came to me and said, we're going to make everything a coin. I was like, that's crazy, Jacob. We're definitely not going to do that. And through a lot of conversations, and a lot of product building and iteration, I realized, oh, this is actually a way better tool for what we're trying to do. So that's the first thing. And then the second thing that I would, I would love you to ask him about is kind of how does he see the, the asset issuance on base evolving, right? You know, one of the things I think is going to be really important as we're building this to global economy is trying to get every asset onto base so that they can be traded.

And we're seeing this happen with, you know, international stable coins and with content coins. And I just would love for folks to hear his perspective on like, hey, how far we've come. in the last two years from where we started, and then be where he thinks that's going. Because Aerodrome really sits at the middle of it. I think they're hands on with all of these builders who are starting to bring their assets, and I think he'll have a really good perspective. Jesse, thanks so much for joining me on Bankless TV. Thanks for having me.

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