Bankless - CZ, Bull Market Predictions & The Future of Binance | New CEO Richard Teng

Episode Date: June 17, 2024

Now that CZ is gone, who’s going to fill his shoes? His name is Richard Teng, the new Binance CEO. He’s joining the podcast today to not only share the story of how he got here, but also to define his vision for the future of Binance. We ask him: Who is Richard Teng? What was it like to work with CZ? Why Crypto? What is going on in Nigeria? Bull Market Predictions? If you want to know who’s taking charge in the next era of Binance, this episode is for you.  ------ 🎬 DEBRIEF | Ryan & David unpacking the episode: https://www.bankless.com/debrief-the-richard-teng-interview  ------ ✨ Mint the episode on Zora ✨ https://zora.co/collect/zora:0x0c294913a7596b427add7dcbd6d7bbfc7338d53f/15?referrer=0x077Fe9e96Aa9b20Bd36F1C6290f54F8717C5674E  ------ 📣STAKEWISE | LIQUID SOLO STAKING https://bankless.cc/Pod_StakeWise  ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 🐙KRAKEN | MOST-TRUSTED CRYPTO EXCHANGE https://k.xyz/bankless-pod-q2    ⁠ ⚡️ CARTESI | LINUX-POWERED ROLLUPS https://bankless.cc/CartesiGovernance    ⚖️ARBITRUM | SCALING ETHEREUM ⁠https://bankless.cc/Arbitrum  🛞MANTLE | MODULAR LAYER 2 NETWORK https://bankless.cc/Mantle  🌐 TRANSPORTER | CROSS CHAINS WITH CONFIDENCE https://transporter.io/  🔗CELO | CEL2 COMING SOON https://bankless.cc/Celo  ------ TIMESTAMPS 0:00 Intro 7:16 Who’s Richard Teng 15:54 The Last 2 Years 24:30 Filling CZ Shoes 34:58 The Future of Binance 48:33 What is Going on in Nigeria? 54:31 Why Crypto? 1:03:33 BNB Chain 1:05:48 Richard Teng’s Routine 1:08:25 Bull Market Predictions 1:14:21 Advice for Investors 1:16:17 User Fund Security 1:19:31 Closing & Disclaimers ------ RESOURCES Richard Teng https://x.com/_RichardTeng   Tigran Gambaryan Article https://www.binance.com/en/blog/leadership/from-richard-teng-binance-ceo-tigran-gambaryan-is-innocent-and-must-be-released-3634612934164622056   Binance Proof of Reserves https://www.binance.com/en/proof-of-reserves   ------ Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures ⁠  

Well, my sort of first experience with crypto didn't start when I met CISI. I started in 2017. And that's where I was in actually Boko-Roton attending a futures industry association, which I go every year. But that was the first year that I saw a lot of crypto boys coming through. And I got quite intrigued with this new industry. What exactly does you represent? The more I understood it, I said, look, I think this is the future of finance.

Welcome to bankless, where today we explore the frontier of Binance and who is taking charge. This is Ryan Sean Adams. I'm here with David Hoffman, and we're here to help you become more bankless. CZ, the co-founder of Binance, is gone. He's serving a prison sentence right now. So who is running Binance these days? Who took over for him? Binance is, by some measures, the largest exchange in the world. It's had a crazy couple of years. It was fined $4 billion by the U.S. government. Its founder is now spending four months in jail. David, it's always four, isn't it? It's always for Binance. Richard Tang is the guy who's filling CZ's shoes, and we felt it was time to finally meet him.

So that is our guest on today's episode. We talk about a few things. Number one, who is Richard? Why is he here? Number two, how does he plan to take Binance to a billion users? Number three, are things with U.S. regulators really settle? Like, is there a blank slate? Number four, the story of why Binance execs are being forcibly held in Nigeria right now?

Like, what is going on with that? And number five, we end with some fun price predictions for the bull market. Before we get into the conversation, our friends and sponsors over at Stakewise want you to know what they're up to in the new world of liquid staking on Ethereum. If you're a solo staker, but your Eth is locked up in a liquid because you're solo staking, you can continue to be a solo staker in the Stakewise protocol while also being able to mint OSEath in order to use your solo staked Eth in Defi on Layer 2s and Iiglayer or anywhere else across the Ethereum landscape. You get to keep your rewards that your node is earning while doing more with your ETH. And if you're not a solo staker, Stakewise is introducing a Vault's Marketplace to choose perks that you want to add on to your staked ETH between custom MEV strategies, DVT, insurance, API, boosts, all things available through the Stakewise Vault's Marketplace. There is a link in the show notes if any of this stuff peaked you.

I enjoyed getting to know Richard here with the hour that we had with him. Pretty personable guy, which I would also say CZ was as well. And really my question that I was trying to get asked is like, is this a new era for Binance? Is there a before and after of Binance after CZ's departure? Or are things going to continue on as usual? I'll let the listener kind of listen to the episode with Richard and decide for that. But it was nice to get to know the guy who's now at the helm of like the largest crypto empire that's out there and what his plans are for the next era for Binance's growth as we enter this next crypto cycle. Yeah, David, I certainly have my takes on how Richard is maybe different from CZ and CZ and

similar in what this means for the future of finance. And I want to talk to you about that in the debrief. So for bankless citizens, there's a debrief episode waiting for you on your bankless premium feed. If you are not a bankless citizen, you don't have access to that, but you can get access. There's a link in the show notes where you can get the bankless premium feed,

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So if you're a developer looking to push the boundaries of what's possible in Web3, Cartesee is now offering up to $50,000 in grants, head over to Cartese's grant application page to apply today. And if you're not a developer, those with staked CTSI can take part in the governance process and vote on whether or not a proposal should be funded. Make sure you're vote ready by staking your CTSI before the votes open. Bankless Nation, I want to introduce you to Richard Tang. He's the new CEO of Binance, which is the largest exchange in the world. He took over the role in November 23 after the departure of Binance's founder,

CZ, who stepped down following a legal settlement with U.S. authorities. Now, as of the time of recording, CZ is serving a four-month sentence in a federal prison in California. Some background on Richard that David and I dug up, but we're going to find out more from him today. He joined Binance in August 2021.

He was the CEO of Binance, Singapore, and before that, he was working in the financial regulatory world in Abu Dhabi and also in Singapore. And I think we should save the rest of the intro for Richard, because this conversation is really about getting to know him in his own words. Richard, welcome to bankless. Thanks, Ryan. Thanks, David. It's great to be here. Okay, so since we haven't met, and I think you are new to some in the crypto community, why don't we start? Could you just tell us about yourself? Sure. I mean, I have worked for about three decades now, but, I mean, until I joined finance,

I've essentially worked for traditional financial firms like Singapore Exchange. I started my career with the Central Bank of Singapore. I stayed there for 13 years doing things like licensing, authorization of capital markets, of banks, insurance firms, etc. But I had a tin doing financial sector development, trying to develop Singapore's private banking sector, asset management, reinsurance sector. I was sent to New York for two years. I stayed in Patrick Park City for two years to try to bring in the likes of Flag Rock

then into Singapore. That's way back in 2001, 2002. And it happened during 9-11, so I saw the collapse of the Twin Tower as well. Wow. So I was there for 13 years with the Central Bank. Then I moved to Singapore Exchange where I rose to become the chief regulatory officer. And I was there for seven years until I was head hunted to Abu Dhabi, Global Market, to become the CEO of Financial Services Regulatory Authority.

So my background is essentially mainly in regulations as well as more threat-flying in nature. I have a chance meeting with CZ sometime in June of 2021, and we hit it off. He convinced me to join Binance, starting off as CEO of Singapore in August 2021. And that's where I started. The chance meeting, tell us a little bit about that because it's always a fun story when someone who has a traditional finance background, particularly in kind of like the banking world. You were on kind of the central bank side when they find their way into crypto.

So what was that chance meeting like? like what kind of drew you into Binance and this weird alternative financial system that we call crypto? Well, my sort of first experience with crypto didn't start when I met CZ. I started in 2017. And that's where I was in actually Boko Raton, attending a futures industry association, which I go every year. So the top honchos from global exchanges, right, New York Stock Exchange, NASDAQ, ICE, CME, etc. trust will go there, right? So I was representing Singapore Exchange and I went there. But that was the first year that I saw a lot of crypto boys coming through. And I got quite intrigued with this

new industry. What exactly does you represent? The more I understood it, I said, look, I think this is the future of finance. And when our CEO of Abu Dhabi global market, we became the first then, almost the first in the world to start rolling out a comprehensive framework to start regulating in crypto. And I tell people, I'm not your traditional regulator. I'm not the type of people that sort of regulate banks without having a bank account. So I got my hand dirty, opening up crypto accounts, started trading to get to know the industry much better. So my first exposure into crypto started in 2017 then, right? So I met a lot of people. I met the Wincomvores twins from Gemini. We met Jesse Powell from Cracken at that point in time in a bit to try to attract

them to set up shop in Abu Dhabi. And the Cracken set up shop. in Abu Dhabi then. So when I met CZ, I already had background in crypto. And then he was trying to sass me out. Somebody introduced me, right? Because at that point in time, I just came back to Singapore from Abu Dhabi, having stepped down as CEO. And then somebody introduced me. He was trying to slash me out. And then we went for lunch. But if you remember Singapore then in June 2021, has very strict COVID measures. So we met in a place where there's only two of us. There's nobody else because you can go to the restaurant. And that lunch lasted about two and a half hours. On hindsight, after I joined Bynance, I realized how precious those two and a half hours are, right? Because

our meetings are packed 15 minutes, half an hour. So throughout the lunch conversation, I saw him calling his secretary, can you post my meeting? So I think he treated it quite seriously. And I hit it off then. And he asked me to join Bidens. And I started in August 2021. one. CZ always struck me as an incredibly energetic, busy person. Like, I can imagine that man's calendar was absolutely full, like hopping to meeting to meeting and just like continuously on the move, continuously, like just a very action-oriented individual. Richard, in what you just said, you said in 2017, you saw crypto as the future of finance. Tell us a bit more about that. So, like, why was it apparent that crypto was the future of finance? What exactly drew you into that

line of thinking. Because if you look at it, you know, as policy makers globally, as well as banking regulators, one of the biggest problem that we try to solve at that point in time was financial inclusion. And then we have been at it, you know, for 50 years and financial inclusion isn't getting much better. If you look at, you know, you're in America, so you're blessed, right? You have high level of financial inclusion. I'm in Singapore. Again, we have very high financial inclusion. But if you look at developing countries and frontal economies, you can see financial inclusion of between 10 and 20%, meaning 80% of people in the world, or that particular economy does not have access to banking, does not have access to payments, remittance, etc. Either that

or it's very expensive for that. So the more I got into blockchain and crypto, I said, hey, look, this allowed people to do remittance at a fraction of the cost. And the fraction of the cost, in an instantaneous basis compared to the traditional method. I like banks that operate, I don't know, what's the timing in the US banking hours, but in Singapore, it's probably between 9.30 to 4 o'clock. But, you know, crypto is 24-7.

It never sleeps. It keeps working. Anybody can access crypto in any part of the world on a 24-7 basis. So there's almost no herder rate for anybody that wish to be involved in this industry to get access to this. this technology and then use this technology as a mode of transfer or value. So that was very

intriguing. But my thesis back then, and I still hold that thesis now, is that for this industry to go mainstream, for it to be embraced, for adoption rate to grow up, firstly, you need clarity of regulations, because you can have 5% adoption or you can even reach 10% adoption without rules and regulations. But for it to hit 40, 50%, a lot of users would demand clarity of rules, regulations in terms of protection of their assets. So that's the first dimension that we need to see. And second thing, you need institutional investors coming into this space. That brings in liquidity, the know-how, structuring of new products, creation of new financial instruments around crypto. So to me, those are two things that

essential. And the second part of it, the second dimension institution investors, probably wouldn't come in until they see clearer regulations. So which is why in 2017, I went about making sure that at least Abu Dhabi itself create a framework that is very supportive of crypto, giving crypto players a chance to be properly licensed to serve users, to make sure that users as are properly protected, to bring about that growth in terms of crypto adoption. So for you, the future of finance is very much tied in with the story of like the democratization of finance and banking and money. And I think we'll return to that question a little bit later in the conversation as to just like to find out why you're here, but that's cool to hear how you got in the space and sort of caught the bug.

Everyone comes in from a different vantage point. You're bankless, right? So you believe in. We do. We do. We believe that the intermediaries that banking systems are very ripe for it to be disrupted and to kind of like reform around this new infrastructure that is evolving and emerging. I mean, your point about regulators and institutions is interesting as well. It certainly depends on having the right regulation, doesn't it? And the regulation that doesn't slow us down. But before we get into some of those broader conversations, I still want to go back to maybe your initial conversation back there in Singapore for those two and a half hours with CZ and then what's happened since then? So you took the job at Binance. And I'm just like looking out. I'm zooming out

over the last two years. And what an absolutely insane two years. And what an absolutely insane two years. we've had. And I want to get in your head and kind of hear what it felt like from your perspective. But just a recap for bankless listeners who you've probably lived through the whirlwind that was, you know, 22 to 2024. But like all of the craziness that happened, 2022, FTX collapsed. You guys remember that, right? This is a major exchange, a major Binance competitor. There was this CZ tweet from November 4th where he was dumping the FTT tokens. All of that happened. and all of that chaos. In 2023, we got charges from the U.S. against Binance, including AML and sanctions violations. So you were there for that. 2024, a judge ruled that Binance had to pay a $4.3 billion

fee. This is like one of the largest in history. And CZ, the founder of Binance, was sentenced to four months in jail, so that happened. You retired. And now here we are today. And Richard, you have taken the lead as CEO. Binance keeps chugging. We've got a new bull market. Bitcoin recently hit all-time highs. It's like set to do that again here shortly. The B&B token as well just hit all-time highs, which I was just like surprised to see that in the last week or so. What was all of this like? There's some things I'm sure you can't comment on. Some things maybe you can. But like, where were you when all of this was going on? When you step back and you zoom out and you look at the last two years, do you ever just like ask yourself, what the heck was that? What just happened?

Yeah, you know, there's never a Dow Day, right, in crypto especially. But maybe just to take a step back, finance is still a very young organization. We are going to celebrate our seven-year anniversary next month, right? So imagine a seven-year-old organization, and we have what, 198 million users today, going to hit 200 million users very soon. If you look at the pace of growth, the first 100 million users took us about five years, and the next 100 million users is going to take us about two years or just slightly shorter than two years. And that showed the pace of development and crypto adoption.

So I just want to put that in context. In the very early years, probably in the first five years, as you know, the rules are not very clear. It's at a very nascent, very early stage of development. So we are trying to see what we can do in terms of making sure that we satisfy the different requirements. But there are no very clear rules for us to comply. in many of these areas. Even today, about one-third of global regulators are regulating crypto. Still, two-thirds are still not regulating this place.

Of the one-third they're regulating, it is not easy, because some are regulating them as securities, some treat as commodities, some treat them as digital payment token, and then others have a dedicated definition of virtual assets for them. And these rules are conflicting with each other, right? Securities are quite different from commodities and how you regulate them. And that poses a big,

challenge for global platform like ourselves. So every time when we do local deployment, we have to really understand the local rules, trying to find out how best to comply, tweak internal processes, our systems, operational framework to satisfy them. So you understand the operational robustness that means you have, especially when you operate a 24-7 platform on that front. So yes, we were there in the midst of it. I was there looking at it. But truth we told, we are very mission-focused, right? So we know there are all these challenges coming through. But our first priority has always been focusing on user,

focusing on user protection, making sure that we serve our user needs, right? While we pivot the company, probably in the first few years of the company, because of lack of clarity of some of these provisions and rules, we make mistakes. And CZ paid the ultimate price for some of this mistake. He took accountability, as you mentioned. He retired. step down from that role. I'm very honored and humble that he and the rest of the leadership team

picked me to be the next CEO. So we will continue on those very strong fundamentals and principal. I mean, we have been a very strong company, as you mentioned. It's building on those fundamentals, making sure that we continue to be user-focused, focusing on the products and services, users want, continue to innovate on that front. By the same time, making sure that we are compliant with all the new rules and provisions coming through. So I make three commitments when I step in as CEO of finance. I say, look, firstly, we will always be user-focused. User will always be at the heart of what we do.

That's extremely critical because our users and our community are accountable for our success. Without them, really, this platform has no one to serve. So we are very mindful. I'm very glad to go around the world meeting our users, meeting our community, because they give up feedback on products and services that we need to enhance areas that we need to look into, things that they want to see, etc. And this includes both retail as well as VIP customers. The second part is given that the direction of travel is towards one of more compliance. So we are working very closely with policy makers, regulators.

You mentioned a good point just now to say that the regulatory framework should be progressive, should be smart, right, to really, on the one hand, manage risks. On the other hand, support innovation. Because if you have a regulatory framework that only manages the risk but doesn't support innovation, it's not going to be beneficial for the economy, it's not going to be beneficial for the industry and the ecosystem, right? It's detrimental. Given the importance of this industry, we work very closely with global regulators on that

front to highlight to them how do we manage risk by the same time support innovation. We have done a very successful case study. in Dubai. The Dubai government approached us in late 2021 to develop a framework to support crypto. And so we came out with the framework with them and look at the huge success story that Dubai

has now in terms of attracting crypto firms, crypto developers, projects, exchanges, asset managers. So these are things that we do global. And then every local jurisdiction, we are very supportive of local law enforcement efforts. The third commitment I have is

working with crypto partners. Because we are still in a very early stage of crypto development, five, six percent crypto adoption globally. I think the recent introduction of ETO, Bitcoin, as well as ETA approval, not only in the US, but if you look at global jurisdiction from the likes of Hong Kong, Australia to different parts of Europe, I think everybody is pushing out their ETAF approval now. So you see a mainstreaming of this industry. So we are working with traditional financial institutions. We're working with crypto firms to really support crypto adoption and deployment because the more we can build this industry together, the more robust and vibrant ecosystem, everybody benefits. We will benefit from them. So that's my three

commitment when I step in our CEO and we will continue on that front. Some of those challenges, I'm very glad that ourselves and our team, we have very experienced global leaders, we need together to solve all these problems together. So we are on a journey to solve these problems, to continue to serve our users well, and continue to grow a very sustainable and vibrant platform. Richard, you're stepping into some pretty big shoes to fill. CZ was just this larger than life figure. I mean, he built an empire. He built a massive cryptocurrency exchange that blankets the globe. Like, I'm kind of considered by many in the industry to be just a hero for onboarding so many into the world of crypto and for building what he built. And you, you're not. And you,

are feeling that role. How does that feel? I would be intimidated, but that's why I'm a podcaster, not a CEO of a cryptocurrency exchange. I'm wondering just what your sentiments or emotions are as you stepped into the role, the shoes that CZ has left. I think first of all, no one can replace CZ. And that's my view, right? I'm not here to replace Cizu. I mean, he's very unique. I mean, he's a global leader. He's a visionary. He brought about Binance in 2017, and he grew it from zero to the company that we are today. So I don't think anybody can replace him. I think we have to be our own person. I mean, he has built such a strong foundation for us to continue, that very mandate. And our mission is to support the freedom of money, is to support our users globally.

And also, finance in the first six and a half years is quite different from the finance going forward. Because there are few things that have changed in the landscape, right? Firstly, there's clearer regulations today compared to the past. Direction of travel is quite clear. Compliance is something that everybody is looking at. The global regulators, users are looking at. So it's quite different. As a company, it's also different, right?

So he started off with a core team of seven, grew up to 30, and then a few hundred, and then a few thousands. So it's totally different companies. But today, Binance is a company of thousands, right? So managing this company require a very talented team of core managers, which we have put in place now. So it's not one person driving it. To me, it's a team effort that's driving it now.

Also, the corporate structure has changed. So CZ used to be the CEO and decision maker. But today, we have put in place a board of directors of seven, right? So you understand that once you have board of directors, we as a management and I as CEO, together with my team, we are accountable to the board for corporate decisions. And they are the corporate steward. They set the direction of the company.

And we will execute and then we will change the execution direction depending on the needs of the landscape. And what is evolving in the marketplace. But crypto evolved very quickly day-to-day, as you know, right? It is evolving and innovating so quickly. So we are on our toes on the daily basis, making sure that we are ahead of the game, making sure that we know what's happening in the market,

we are developing the right thing, by enhancing our products and services, enhancing the features to serve our users, compliant without the regulators one, working with partners globally, including the likes of MasterCard that you might have seen. So we are doing multiple things at the same time, but it's not an individual effort. So it's a team effort. We have very talented senior leaders, we have very committed mid-tier managers, and also very hardcore junior officers within the firm, all believing in this mission, all having the same

values of being hardcore and humble trying to add value protecting our users. I'm wondering what your perspective is on whatever company always goes in the direction of whoever's at the helm. And so how familiar you are with CZ and like the way that CZ thinks, I think answers the question of like, is Binance going in the same direction that CZ would have led it? Or maybe that was never really the intention in the first place. Maybe CZ with his board of directors and advisors identified a North Star for Binance that was independent of CZ. CZ, and you are also going in that same direction. I'm wondering if you can just like familiarize us with how familiar you were with like CZ's direction, or whether or not CZ was

actually kind of working more collaboratively with the rest of the company to define a North Star for the whole company. I moved with CZ quite closely for two and a half years, right? So I sort of after Singapore, he started to ask me to take care of Middle East, North Africa region I'm familiar with. So I took over as the region ahead for that particular region. And that pie started to grow to include Europe and then Asia, Pacific, and then the rest of the world. So I work very close to him, as the rest of the leaders do, right? Work very closely if CISI. But a lot of his thinking are set into the mission, values, and the DNA of the company, right? So many in the company knows, and he defined a lot of these things, and all these are positive attributes, right? So

at any point in time, when we make a decision, CZ was very clear, right? So, does this benefit the user? Does this protect the users? So those are his guiding principle in making decisions. And those became the guiding principle for us, for all of us in finance. Does this protect the user? Is it beneficial for the user? Is it beneficial to market? If it is, we will do so. If it does, then no. So many of these decisions are, in our view, not difficult to make because we always try to make sure that users are protected, things are beneficial to users. For example, something very simple,

that started way back in 2017, 2018. So you know coins get lost when users transfer wrongly to wrong addresses, and it happens all the time. And it may not be intended for our wallets or their wallets with finance, but we took effort

to try to trace back those and then pass back to users. And that was unheard of way back then. So that is a demonstration of how far we go to save cut users interest. We were the first to came up with a suffolvent, right, to protect users in case there's anything untowards in terms of cyberattacks or cyber security. So you can see the psyche of the organization is one that, let's place user interest first to make sure that we treat

the users, right? And then they'll treat us right, which is why we have such a strong community globally, right? People believe in us. So this trust is not built over six months or one year. It's built consistently throughout action over the course of seven years, right, till now. And we will continue to make sure that we maintain that confidence and trust of our music. You're saying this is part of the DNA that CZ has left in Binance and how Binance has followed through on that. What about Richard's DNA? What DNA will you add to the Binance organization now that you're at the helm? Well, I'm standing on a shoulder of Giant. I'm building off what the Giant has built. But we will need to continue to pivot towards being a regulated entity.

globally, right? So we spend a lot of time effort on that front, working with global regulators. And you see that in terms of things like corporate structure, we have moved from when it's step down to what we have today in terms of having a board directors, having the different subcommittees within directors, in the form and format that regulators are much more familiar with. So we'll continue to gravitate towards that because that's the direction in which this industry is grow and we need to move with the times. We need to move with the times in terms of what our users want. So what the users want today will be quite different from last year. So we have brought things like tri-party arrangement with some of our corporate clients and with financial institutions, right?

Retail investors, Web3 Wallet was a new innovation from us. This is something that they wanted. Enhancing our copy trading feature, allowing them to do mock trading as well. So these are things that we will continue to make sure that we innovate on that front. So again, it's continued to pivot towards being a fully regulated global financial institutions, making sure that we build a very robust enterprise that's sustainable, that's going to go from strength to strength for the next 50 years, not only built for the last seven years. So these are things that we are working on tirelessly on a daily basis.

A 50-year vision is pretty impressive, and I can't wait to see where crypto is. It should be 50 years and beyond, right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that would make all of us pretty old men by that time, but ready to pass the torch to the next. I'm not quite sure I'm around by then. You know, just on a personal note, while we were talking about CZ, I was just kind of like wondering, how's he doing? Like, when's the last time you talked to him? What's his mental state?

I talked to him after the sentencing. CZ is an extremely strong individual, right? If you know him, he's extremely down to earth, extremely humble. person, very personable, very charming. But he also is a very calm person under any circumstances, right? So he has a very strong state of mind. We have been through a lot. You mentioned several episodes in the last few years, right? But what you know are only public events. There are a lot of things happening on a day-to-day basis. But he has always a very calm demeanor. He makes decision in an extremely logical fashion. And he took it full responsibility.

for it, full accountability for it. We all respect him for that on that front. So he's looking forward to it and serving and exiting that. Yeah, I know he's left crypto and you're like a serving this sentence. I for one would love to have him back on bankless just for kind of like a crypto exit interview. When he's done with that, it's got to be just a surreal experience for him. Let's talk about more about finance and in kind of the future. So incredibly impressive to hear that in seven short years, Binance now has 200 million users. And all of those users are kind of like onboarded into crypto, right? And taking their first step to go bank lists and exchanges is generally the place that you start. Let's talk about big picture. How do you turn that 200 million into

one billion? What's going to do it for Binance? What's going to do it for crypto? Talk about the use cases, the apps. I don't know where you want to take this, but 200 is pretty impressive. But like, we're not satisfied with that, right? I mean, this is the future of finance, and we want everyone to have access to these tools. So how does Binance get to a billion? Just take the big picture first, right? So if you look at the big picture, crypto adoption is still very early stage, right? So today, what, we have about 5 to 6% in terms of global crypto adoption. But the introduction of ETF, the mainstreaming of crypto, I think that would be a big boost into crypto. So if you look at the data, about $15 billion has flown in into crypto via the ETF that's launched in the US since the beginning of this year.

So I think that's a massive figure. If you look at the market capitalization of crypto today is about $2.6 trillion, Bitcoin accounts will close to a sign more than half of that, about $1.3 billion or more, sorry. So we are still at the very early stage, including this particular cycle. I think we are still at a very early stage. I think Jenny Johnson from Franklin Tucker says it very well, even for institutions. She thinks that, you know, the big institutional money are getting ready to come in. They are not in yet. They need to do their own due diligence.

But 18 days of net inflow into the Bitcoin ETF, I think that is just actually robust demand. And if you look at the performance of BlackRock ETF, right, I think that's the best ETF launch ever. So I think all this just goes to show how much underlying demand there is and there will be as we bring about even greater education to more investors, both institutions as well as retail into this space. So I think that's the first factor, right? With all this new inflows of liquidity, new investors, naturally.

everybody should benefit from it. And we aim to be part of that, being one of the largest player in this space. So I think that's one. Secondly, continue to do what we do best, which is to serve our customers extremely well, so that they want to continue using our platform, we want to continue to bring in new users globally on that front,

making sure that we have the best products and services that are attractive to them. I think there's no secret source to that, is hard work, understanding, listening to users, continue to innovate on our ops and tech. Something that we pay a lot of attention to is our operational resilience, right? Unlike traditional financial institutions

that operates a certain hours a day, at least the public-facing part operates a certain hour. We have to operate 24-7 across the globe. So in terms of technology and operational demand, robustness is extremely important. So those are things that we pay a lot of attention to because you can't imagine that, you know, how much users will be impacted on that front if we are not robust enough in that aspect.

So these are areas that we continue to invest, create the usage of AI, which is impacting every industry again are things that we are deploying into various aspects of it, including into our compliance program, which we continue to invest very heavily. Last year, we have invested about 2038 million into our compliance program. So again, we will continue to make sure that we pivot very strongly, continue to serve both existing customers as well. That's why it's bringing new users into this, right? And then making sure that together with new product development, innovation,

we support some of these new projects as well as new products coming on stream. Richard, those 200 million users, where are they in the world? Like, where are they kind of concentrated? So I feel like I have a very good sense of, you know, like Coinbase, and crackens kind of user concentration. But I think Binance is much more, like, spread out, deeper in emerging markets. So has the potential to kind of, like, grow the population and its user base even faster, given its international focus.

So, like, where are these users generally concentrated? And, like, where do you think the geographic areas of the world are primed for growth for crypto? Actually, we see growth in every region, right? But sometimes they take different terms. And we serve global users, right? So from Asia Pacific to Europe to Middle East, Africa region, to Latin America, et cetera. So we are almost everywhere, serving global users.

But what I would say is this. The countries and the region with the fastest crypto adoption are where normally the demographics are much younger compared to neighboring countries or other regions. And secondly, where financial inclusion are slightly lower compared to other places, right? And you can understand why. where the population is much younger, they tend to understand crypto much better or they can learn crypto much faster.

So you imagine a person in his 50s or 60s or even late 40s, right? Most of their life dealt with traditional financial products and instruments. Trying to get them to invest into crypto will take some time, which is why ETF is a great product. ETF may not be a great product for you and me

because of the fees involved because we are in crypto. But for them, it makes perfect sense to get exposure via ETIF, right? So everywhere we see younger demographics, we see much better marketplace for ourselves, a much faster crypto adoption, deployment, you have a much more enthusiastic community in those places. The second area is where financial inclusion is lower, right?

Again, it is understandably why, because people have no access to proper payment system, people have no access to proper financial banking system, banks charge them, very high fees to even open a bank account. And many banks are refusing to open bank account for them. So crypto becomes the mode in which they can do payment, they can make savings, they can do remittance on that front. And it's excellent for them. And it's necessarily very cheap compared to what financial institutions charge that. So in these regions or in these countries, we normally see much

faster crypto adoption. So for us, we spend a lot of our time and energy in terms of education. both educating the investors and potential investors, the potential users, but also policymakers, policymakers, and enforcement agencies and regulators, because a lot of them have misconception about crypto, on that, right? So we just helped an online training program for about 1,300 law enforcement agents globally, very well-adended. We teach them, look, crypto is a traceable technology, and you can really use this in a much better way. to trace illicit funds to crack down on financial crimes compared to traditional Fiat channels.

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relations. I don't really know how these things work, so maybe you can inform me, but like, is there a clean slate now with Binance and the United States? And what opportunities have now showed up now that we are past the whole regulatory gamut that Binance has gone through? What's finances plans in the United States? You're talking about Binance.com's plans in US? Yeah. Or Binance. Maybe we could clarify that. What is the state of Binance, US, and how does it relate to Binance? So Binance U.S. is totally separate. It does not have relationship with Binance.com per se. We are runs totally separately, different board of directors, different group of shareholders, actually. So there's no relationship other than the fact that

you have common shareholders in CZ, right? But again, there's different group of shareholders other than CZ on that front. They are run very independently. I don't really know what's happening on that front. So I'm not the right person to ask on that. With the US resolution for Binance.com, we agree not to serve US customers as part of that resolution. And I think the rest you know, right? So we have paid a fine. CZ has agreed to step down. And we have appoint compliance monitor.

To me, which is a positive, right? So we paid a very high price and painful price for this. But the positive coming out of updates is that we have compliance monitor with us. It's not only ourselves that attests that we have built a very robust AML KYC program in the last two and a half years. You have somebody else in the company that said, hey, look, we have examined their program and they have really invested a lot. They are on the journey.

They are doing all the right things. They have very robust compared to many other crypto exchanges in the world. They are way ahead of the game. So to me, that's a key positive as well. Okay. So your finance is actually just strictly an international. company from the perspective of the U.S., like no U.S. users, and that's just a part of the agreement. And that's how the cookie crumbles.

Yep. Okay. Richard, earlier in the conversation, you were talking about part of finance's role is really to educate regulators, like different countries and different jurisdictions. We've been covering this a little bit on bank lists, but like are not in the details of what is going on with finance executives more than one, I believe, in Nigeria. And I guess I'll just give you a take of what. what it seems like from our perspective. It seems like the Nigerian government has kidnapped

finance executives and are now holding them in Nigeria without cause or explanation. And you put out a blog post, I'm probably going to butcher this gentleman's name, but he is a U.S. citizen. Tigran Gambor Ryan, maybe that's close, is innocent and must be released. This is the title of a blog post that you authored on the book. finance website. May 7th. You said, as you may be aware, one of our beloved colleagues, Tigran Gambor Ryan, continues to be held by a government in Nigeria for more than 70 days. There has not been much public commentary on this episode, and I want to take this opportunity to provide the facts, so the global community's perception may not be distorted unfairly. And then you say this,

in bold, to invite a company's mid-level employees for collaborative policy meetings only to detain them, has set a dangerous new precedent for all companies worldwide. What in the world is going on in Nigeria? Like, what is happening here? Can you give it to us in your own words? Sure. So Tigran has been now detained for more than 90 days. There's an extremely long period of time. He continues to be detained despite our best efforts to get him free. We want to make sure that he's back home safely with his wife and family. And obviously, it's a very distressing time for everybody. that's one. Again, I set out very clearly my blog. Tigran is a true professional of the highest integrity and his passion is in terms of fighting financial crimes. So it's irony. He went to Nigeria as a functional expert,

not as a negotiator, not as a management person that makes the decision. So it is unfortunate that he is detained. And we continue to work very closely with the Nigeria government. to secure his release. Also, I think you have seen different media articles coming out that the US prosecutors has asked for his release. There are policymakers in the US to say that, look, it has been detained unnecessarily. We will always try to solve problems that you have if there are problems with any government. But that is a function of what we do as a company.

But Tigran shouldn't be used as a tool for unnecessary charges on that front. Okay, so I'm still, feel like I'm not clear on all the details here, but to your comment, this is something that happened just this week. U.S. lawmakers, particularly in the Republican House, have called, and this is a quote from U.S. Representative Michael McCall, I call on the Biden administration to promptly declare Tigran as wrongfully detained and urged the Nigerian government to release him immediately. He was invited to Nigeria by the Nigerian government and has done nothing wrong and should be returned home to his family. So, Binance is active in Nigeria. Imagine you've been active in Nigeria for some time. And I imagine you have ongoing conversations with Nigerian regulators, you know, like those in government. We've conducted trainings for the financial intelligence in the unit.

We have conversation with the regulators over there. I think I've set out very clearly in the blog, right, which is quite extensive in terms of our involvement, our engagement with the regulatory agencies, as well as with the financial intelligence. in Nigeria. And that Tigran was invited there. We were invited there. And then this happened, which is most unfortunate. Well, reason are they giving for it? So basically, he was invited there to just continue these dialogues, do some more of the education, just like the back and forth. And then suddenly he's just like now in captivity? Like, what are they telling you? I think this podcast wouldn't do it much justice. I don't want to say much more other than what I've set out in my blog, right? For fear that, you know, people might interpret it differently.

So go and read my blog, I think for people that are very interested in the episode, what transpired, what happened. It's very detailed because it happens over the course of a few years. I was involved in Nigeria. And we are very committed to solve the problem as an organization. We are very committed to working with the Nigerian government on this front. It's an important market. We think that we can help the Nigeria economy to be even much better. We want to solve the issue and we continue to work to us on that front.

But other than that, I don't say much more because I think you'll muddy the water even further at this point. Yeah, I understand. I imagine it's a sticky situation. It's sensitive, right? Sensitive, right? We all want that, I think, in the crypto community because just let's get him home. This doesn't seem just. Absolutely. I appreciate ongoing updates on that as well and, you know, hoping and praying for his safety.

Let's zoom out again for a minute. We talked about Richard, how you got into crypto is kind of this path of, seeing the future of finance and democratizing access to banking tools for the world. And this is a question we've had at Bankless, David and I have had the privilege to have many of the exchange founders and CEOs on over the years. And in every single conversation, like interview, first interview we have with them, we always ask them the question at the root of like, why are you here? Like really, I know why you got here, but like, why are you still here? And I think at the root of this question is like, what values do you have? Because I think

your values as an individual and company really influences the direction you go in the space. And I remember, you know, like Jesse Powell from Cracken, Brian Armstrong, we asked them this question, and their answer was very much around the lines of giving access to decentralized money tools that just like can't be corrupted. So Brian tells the story of, you know, some of his formative years he spent in Argentina. And the peso was like going wild and like look at this alternative that we have in crypto. And people in Argentina deserve this. I remember we asked the same question of, SBF, free all of the chaos when FTX was rising high, SBF basically said that he was here to make money and give it away. So that was the effective altruism take on it. It's just like, he said

if he could trade orange grove futures and they had the same growth profile of crypto, then he'd be trading oranges instead of crypto. So you hit the max profit button and then, quote unquote, give it away. So coming back to the full circle to this question, Richard, why are you here? Well, I think there's a very important and very interesting. question, right? So I count myself as very fortunate. I, in my previous role as regional head of markets, I travel the world quite extensively, including to third world developing frontier marketplace. It's really in those places that you see how important crypto as a financial instrument is. I talk to many people, including local people that are not into crypto, as well as people that have been

involved in crypto, very early on, midstream, and people that just get involved in crypto. And I see how much better many of their life are when they get involved in crypto. So, for instance, let me give you an example. In many of these places, the currency has gone through huge devaleration because of hyperinflation in the last few years. So anybody with access to crypto, puff, some of the money is into stable coins, in terms of preservation of wealth and assets, they are so much better. compared to some other people.

In terms of the payment space, a lot of them have no proper modes of payment. You can't use fiat for things on platforms, electronic platforms and purchase things, which tends to be much cheaper. Again, crypto becomes that means to allow for mode of transfer, which became actually important. So I've seen what I call crypto in action, and I see how beneficial it is to the lives of so many people globally, especially in developing and frontier market. So that makes a huge difference to their life. I was once in a developing country and people don't know who I am. So I was just, I was wearing my Binance cap. And then this young gentleman came up to me. The first question is, do you work for Binance?

I said, yes, I do. The person was like thanking me profusely. I said, why are you doing that? I said, oh, my brother, it's not him. His brother got into crypto via Binance three years ago. And the family was very poor at that point in time. And then crypto allowed them a chance to get into financial independence. Actually, the whole family was extremely grateful. And he was thanking profusely. He borrowed my cap and said, I want to take a photo of this, show it to my brother. I said, you can keep the cap.

It's fine. It means a lot more to you. I can always get another cap. So I have seen how it changes the life of so many people in so many parts of the world. like to go for our community events, right? I like to meet our KRLs, our angels, because they tell me a lot of different story, again, of different episodes, how it transformed the life of the underprivileged in many different parts of the world. And that really is our key motivation. We want to make sure that people can use money in the way that they wish to, especially people who have no access to the

financial system, which is why our mission is support the freedom of money globally. We want to allow people to use assets, money in the way they deem feed, without restrictions, and crypto is the way to do it. The second thing is crypto is the future because all the youth and young adults are in it. So if you look at all the different surveys, right, globally, if you ask the young adults, what asset class do you own? Many of them own crypto and not stocks, securities or debt anymore, because it allowed them the chance to gain financial independence. particular space, which is quite different from many of the other asset classes. They miss the boat on the great growth in many of those other asset classes. But this is nascent and this is

developing. So it allows them to get the chance towards financial freedom, financial independence, which is why we're here to support them in that journey. And that gets me excited. These are the two primary reasons. Richard, I just want to plus one what you said about kind of like younger demographics skewing crypto. And part of the reason why is I don't know people always say crypto ux sucks i completely disagree with them actually i mean have you ever tried to use like fidelity or swab or like your wells fargo banking user interface to me crypto if you've been sort of brought up and you understand how wallets work and like private keys it just is so much more seamless than going to like my 401k account in fidelity the user experience is so much better to send a stable coin to

David, then just to like figure out how to like wire it to his eye band number and routing and, you know, like check information and all of this. I've heard this echoed from people we talk to in that skew younger, the gen Zs of the world that are builders in the space. And I remember a conversation with like a startup based in India and like 19, 20 year olds. And they were just basically like, crypto makes sense. The trad-fi system that I have to learn makes no sense to me. And I think it's going to just skew more and more like this. Absolutely. And Jeff, Absolutely right. Because you grow up with it, it becomes intuitive to you. And because your tech savvy, everything makes sense to you, right? Selling up with wallet, doing the transfer,

you know. But for a person in their 50s and 60s, you have to understand that they are brought up in a different dimension, right? They are brought up with, I mean, their first investment would be equity or debt security. Their first interface is what you see in the Trapfire interface, which you think is very unuser-friendly, but that's what they're used to, right? So for a person, I mean, if you look at a younger crowd, hardly anybody goes to a physical bank or make use of the ATM anymore. Everything is, you know, going through bank transfer, etc. But for a person in their 50s and 60s, to them, a bank is you need to make a physical visit to a banking shop and withdraw money, right? So again, we are all creatures of our experience,

right? So they grew up in that era, they are brought up that way. Their experience are dead. You can't quite fault them. And if you ask them to set up with a co-wlett, I think they're a freak out. What exactly is this? Where I lose all my money, et cetera. Because simply lack of understanding,

there's no proper coaching. They are not as tax-heavy, as many of the young folks. So it's a generation issue. And it's also a knowledge issue on that front way. So you can't fault them. But you're right. For people, there are so much younger, crypto, defy,

the space makes absolute sense to their. And this is the industry of the future. Any industry where the youth, young adult, embrace will be the industry of the future is as good as there. And the idea of like crypto-UX sucking is definitely one that comes from the past. The UX is getting really good. There's been just like a global movement of like, hey, it's time for everyone to get it on chain. Like we need centralized exchanges because that's how you get there. But like the goal is to get on chain.

Just give us an update on the state of BNB chain if for whatever perspective that you have of it. like what's the initiatives going on over there? How are they trying to get people on chain? What's the growth story? Download us on the growth story of BNB chain in 2024. Well, I can't comment quite a lot on B&B chain because it's run quite separately. So I think we need to schedule you to speak to somebody else at that front. But you're right.

Things are going on chain. CX exists for a reason, right? CX are great in terms of Fiat to crypto and crypto to Fiat. Right? On-off RAM, you need CX. and things like, you know, a single point of access is so much easier, many people feel safer, et cetera.

So CX will still continue to play a big role. But for crypto natives, right, if you just do crypto-to-cropto-cpto transactions, for example, right? A lot of people are relying on Defi, right? We don't really need CX on that front. But both will continue to grow because there's a natural inhibition for people just to skip from traditional finance to defy.

that curve is too steep to cross. So the normal curve is people go through CX, exposure there, and also it's much easier. I mean, and CX normally have much better interface, it allows you to do more things, allows you to do, you know, on a frame, et cetera, et cetera. But I strongly believe both will continue to grow quite strongly in the next five to 10 days. By the way, David, just like a note here, I really like the way Richard says CX rather than the way. I've never been comfortable calling these sexes, okay? The soft C for me just doesn't work, all right?

So from here on out. CX is better, yeah. CX, for me at least. You continue doing the sex thing. Richard, I would imagine you're some sort of a workaholic. I don't know how you would have ended up as the CEO of finance without being some sort of workaholic, but what about the Richard that unplugs and turns off?

Like, give us a little peek behind the scenes. Like, what are your hobbies? What are you like to do? What's fun for you? Hobbies. I do have hobbies. Okay, so what I do, I can tell you my daily schedule, right? So normally I start off the day, I wake up.

I spend half an hour planning for the day. What do I have to accomplish either for the day or for the week? I normally plan in advance. Normally for the week I plan over the weekend, what do I have to achieve the next week also? So that's what I normally do. But I also make sure that I have half an hour of exercise during the day. Because I think it keeps me both mentally. sharp and physically sharp as well. So I normally make sure that I have half an hour of exercise

in a day. One of the benefits of people in crypto is most of us can choose to work remotely. We do have physical meetings like go and meet regulators, policymakers, community, but other time, we do a lot of our meetings on a remote basis. And that allows us, you know, in between meetings to have a bit of time, squeeze something to do the things that we need to do. So I normally squeeze time to do my own exercise, whether it's cardio or weight, some weights, et cetera, some yoga on that friend. And then I tried to do some reading. I watch Netflix in my free time. I read books.

Give us a show recommendation. Do you do a three body problem yet? Netflix show. What do you like on Netflix? Oh, you caught me off guys. This is, you know, either answer that or answer what your favorite crypto acid is. Which one's a harder answer? The word of a three-and-B.

All right. You got out of it. I'm glad that you have hit at all time high recently. Yeah, congrats about that. There are some, I'm a slightly boring person. I watch documentary, right? So I watch quite a fair bit of documentaries. Because I do think that history has a way of teaching us lessons that we can all take

away. So I watch quite a fair bit of, I mean, even books, I read quite a lot of memoirs, autobiographies, etc. So I tend to favor those. You're a podcast guy, Richard? I do. A lot of bank lists, I'm sure. All right, let's talk about the bull market that we're in. And I don't know, we always used to ask CZ when he'd come on about like his predictions.

And he'd always have something to say, as you can imagine. So I don't know how you feel about predictions, Richard. But one thing that I think is forefront of everyone's mind in crypto right now is we are in the fourth cycle, the fourth crypto cycle. And traditionally the cycles have been about, you know, like four years long, and they go up high, in higher and higher and higher. And we get into what our friend Raul Paul calls the banana zone and things get absolutely crazy. And then things come, they crash down. We fall down, you know, 60, 70, 80 percent. It feels like we are in the bull cycle, but we haven't quite hit the banana zone of like going to extremes here.

That's if we take the last three cycles and we just kind of. extrapolate that forward. Do you think that's how this cycle will play out, or do you think this is different? What are you saying? I mean, we've never been at, say, 200 million finance users. So at some level, this is a little bit different than where we've been in the past. What's your base prediction? Do we get another boom bus cycle? Are there more legs in this bull market yet? No, I think that we are in the early stage of this particular blue cycle, and that's my view, right? So if you remember for almost more than three quarters of 2023, we are in a pretty best cycle, There's a continuation of the year before.

So last year was not so great, and then market activities start to pick up towards the end of last year, right? So we are still relatively early. There are some differences in this particular bull cycle. So normally, Bitcoin will hit an all-time high six months after the halving cycle, or six months or after six months after halving cycle. This bull cycle is different because Bitcoin reached all-time high even before the halving, right? So that is something that was not within my prediction. Towards the end of last year, I said this in some other forum, towards the end of last year,

my prediction for end of year Bitcoin price for this year is 80,000. And possibly, I think 2025 is going to be an even better year than 2024 for crypto industry in general, because the general macroeconomics condition will be much better. We're probably going to see interest rate reduction towards the end of this year. There's going to be a much better macroeconomic environment, much more enlightened, for environment. So I think all those will boost crypto prices even further in 2025. So my base prediction, end of 2023 was 80,000 this year, 120,000 by next year. But what I didn't predict was the strong, robust inflows from the institutions after the launch of ETF. I didn't expect the

ETF to be approved so quickly, so early on in the year. My prediction for ETF approval was possibly towards the end of 2024 or even 2025. So I think I have changed my prediction because of that. My price for end of this year is much higher than 80,000. I'm not going to give you the price, but it's much higher than my base price end of last year. And I think next year will be a much better year compared to this year. That's my view. You have seen a lot of analysts coming out, including from standard charter to say that by next year, Bitcoin should reach 200,000.

If there's a squeeze, it should reach a quarter of a million dollars. I think there's still some room to grow. both for Bitcoin as well as tokens such as ETER, that better ETF has just been approved. Again, with all this approval of ETF, it brings new liquidity, new user pool. I mentioned 15 billion has flown into the Bitcoin ETF since the beginning of the year after their approval, and that's very robust, right? We will continue to see pretty robust institutional demand on that front, and that is really very beneficial for the crypto community.

What about the total crypto market cap? So last cycle, we topped out at $3 trillion. We're at $2.77 trillion. So Bitcoin has reached all-time high, but the total crypto market cap has not. We're just under our previous all-time high. Where do you think the total crypto market cap ends up at the end of the cycle? Another unique feature of this particular cycle. Of course, we are still very early on in the cycle, right?

So we have not seen the full cycle into play. But something that's pretty unique in this cycle, if you remember the past cycle, right, normally it start off with Bitcoin rallying and then it filter down to the other mega coins, so to say, and then slowly it goes down to the meme coins. This cycle sort of was focused on Bitcoin and then meme coins. Straight meme coins. People skip straight to the end. Skipping a lot of imitrins, right?

So this is unique in this particular cycle is unique in that sense as well, which is something that I don't think we have quite seen in previous cycle, right? I don't remember it, but I may be wrong. But I don't think we have seen it in previous cycle. So it is quite unique. I do think that the market cap will more than easily double where it is today. That's my view. How many more times than that?

Three times, four times. It's very difficult to have a crystal ball to predict that. But again, these are my own view, not financial advice. You will easily more than double from where we are. I'm just doing the math. And I'm here in a range of between maybe $6 and $12 trillion there, David. What do you think of that? It's pretty bullish.

I have a crypto bull. I'm bullish. You have to be in your role. All right. This has been great, Richard. Thank you so much for coming on. Maybe one of my last questions is I know Binance has a lot of like investors, you know, like traders, that sort of thing.

That's a persona that Binance has attracted over the years and it does a lot of volume. Do you have any just like general advice for them or just like thoughts for traders for investors on how they can do well in this market, you know, how to avoid mistakes? what would you say to a trader that just puts up their hand and says, Richard, just like, tell me how to do this better. What should I do? Well, firstly, I would say that we are extremely grateful to our users, to our community, to our different stakeholders that have supported us,

that's placed their confidence and trust in us through time, right? And we are doing our best to make sure that we do everything we can to serve you even better in terms of products and services, right? So if there are any areas of improvement, please feel free to escalate them, let us let me know, let the rest of the team, know, we'll try our best to make sure that we do right and we do much better. So I think that's the first message from the second message on that front, I am not a trader unfortunately.

I wish I am much better than trading, but I am not a good trader. The reason is I don't watch the market all the time. So I tend to be one of those people that buy and whole through time, right? I'm much more boring in that sense. So I buy and hold. So I really admire people that can do fantastic trading. but I guess some of the fundamentals will apply, right? So you have different form of traders.

You have corn, you have people that do Algo, et cetera, high frequency trading. But, you know, they are experts at what they do, and not me. So you probably need to speak to them to find out how to make money in this cycle. But I've seen many traders doing extremely well. I'm very grateful for their support and hope that continue to support us and do more business with us. Richard, I actually do have one last question

because I think many listeners still have some PTSD from last cycle, where a major crypto exchange that they trusted, that they had faith in, that they had funds on, went completely under. And it turned out had been using the depositors funds to go, you'll speculate on crypto markets. That was a very traumatic experience for a lot of people in crypto. You are the largest exchange right now in the world with Binance, and there's a lot of funds being custodied in Binance. what can you say about assurances of those funds, right? And like, keep in mind when you say that, I think in crypto, hopefully we learned our lesson in 2022, and we're moving to a trust but verify type of model. So we heard Sam Bankman Freed say a lot of things too. Just like words are great, but they're also

not sufficient. What kind of measures have you put in place? What sort of proof can listeners see when they're using Binance, that their funds are Saffu, that their funds are actually secure. Trust us face on our action, right? We are not the flashy type. We don't go out saying that, you know, flowery words. But we have been very consistent in our actions. So user funds are sacrosan. They are back one to one. And that is a fundamental principle from day one when Binance is set up. So as I mentioned, user protection, user assets, safety, security at the heart of what we do. We make sure that those are being protected. Other than Safufan, we also publish things like proof of reserve.

We have expanded the number of coins that's coupled by proof of reserve. We published them. Finance is an entity. We are very prudent in terms of our operations. So you don't see us slashing out big sponsorship as well. We are financially prudent, making sure that, you know, whatever money goes back to supporting the community, supporting our users, and making sure that we are robust.

And truth is, we are the most regulated exchange. We are regulated in 18 different jurisdictions. We are under close scrutiny by the US regulators for a prolonged period of time. So they have met out various allegations at us. But I think there are two allegations that were, I think, very clear. There's never any allegation that we misappropriated user fund. And there's never allegation of market manipulation. So they scrutinized operations very closely for prolonged period of time.

But these things are things that are resacriced. We make sure that there's trust in the community. We place a lot of emphasis in terms of protecting user assets and making sure that safety, soundness, fairness of the marketplace are very important to make sure that we run a platform where different users can trust. So the rest of the street on that front, I mean, I can tell you this, but we are scrutinized very heavily by global regulators on that front as well.

Yeah, I think my personal perspective on this is if something was amiss, then the regulators would have found it in the last two years as they were digging very much into Binance. One action item, though, for you, Bankless Nation. So if you have funds on any exchange, I encourage you to look at their proof of reserves policy. So we will include a link to the Binance proof of reserves policy in the show notes. And go look at that for yourself. Look for on-chain types of attestations. These are some crypto-native tools that we can use for proof of reserves. Richard, it has been fantastic to finally meet you. Congratulations on. on the role. We look forward to big things from Binance in the years to come and your continued

mission to onboard the world to crypto. Thank you so much for spending the last hour with us. Thank you so much again. Bankless Nation, got to end with this. Of course, you know, crypto is risky. You could lose what you put in, but we are headed west. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone, but we're glad you're with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot.