Bankless - Defending Beamchain & the Ethereum Roadmap | Justin Drake

Episode Date: November 18, 2024

For the Bankless Summit’s inaugural episode, Justin Drake shares his reflection on the Beamchain talk he gave earlier in the week at Devcon Bangkok. Additionally, Justin adds some much needed contex...t and important (and very bullish) facets to the Ethereum Roadmap from his perspective.  ------ 📣SPOTIFY PREMIUM RSS FEED | USE CODE: SPOTIFY24  https://bankless.cc/spotify-premium ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 🐙KRAKEN | MOST-TRUSTED CRYPTO EXCHANGE https://k.xyz/bankless-pod-q2   ⁠  🦄UNISWAP | BROWSER EXTENSION https://bankless.cc/uniswap  🪄 MAGIC EDEN | HOME OF WEB3 https://bankless.cc/MagicEden  🛞MANTLE | MODULAR LAYER 2 NETWORK https://bankless.cc/Mantle  🤖 dYdX | UNLIMITED LAUNCHING SOON https://bankless.cc/dYdXUnlimited   🗣️TOKU | CRYPTO EMPLOYMENT  https://bankless.cc/toku   ------ ✨ Mint the episode on Zora ✨ https://zora.co/collect/zora:0x0c294913a7596b427add7dcbd6d7bbfc7338d53f/96?referrer=0x077Fe9e96Aa9b20Bd36F1C6290f54F8717C5674E ------ TIMESTAMPS & RESOURCES 0:00 Intro 4:00 5-Year Ethereum Roadmap 6:58 Part 1 - Execution  14:56 Part 2 - Data  20:23 Part 3 - Consensus  27:49 Audience Questions 33:00 Closing ------ RESOURCES Justin Drake https://x.com/drakefjustin Presentation Slides https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Yvzh5q2jjlcW_g95s-7E4Gk5ZL-scM3l/edit#slide=id.p5 ------ Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures⁠ 

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Starting point is 00:00:03 Bankless Nation, I just got off my flight back from Bangkok, from DevCon, where we all had a fantastic time throughout the week of DevCon, talking to all the nerds, learning about the future of Ethereum and about all the ways that Ethereum is changing the world. And on the last day of DevCon, the day after DevCon Saturday, we hosted the Bankless Summit, which had 10 speakers all giving their most interesting, their most fascinating talks possible. That is what I charged them with, and all of the speakers rose to the occasion. We recorded all of those talks, and we are going to be releasing those talks on the bankless podcast feed and on the YouTube slowly over the next few weeks. You are about to go here, Justin Drake's talk, which was a reflection of his talk at DevCon, the beam chain talk, adding in some additional much-needed context that I think he wished he had to introduce the first time when he introduced the beam chain at DevCon, along with many other facets of the Ethereum roadmap. There's also Peter Van Balkenberg's talk, which is going to come later, as well as Arjun Bipani's talk from Connect's. some of the most interesting, fascinating talks that I've listened to in this space. We got a ton of positive, amazing feedback from the Bankless Summit.
Starting point is 00:01:07 So thank you to all the speakers who worked so hard putting their talk together. The audience loved it. We had a packed house. I'm looking forward to the next Bankless Summit whenever DevConnect is announced. But meanwhile, while you wait, we'll serve you up all the talks from this year's Bankless Summit, the first ever Bankless Summit. So let's go ahead and get into that first talk from Justin Drake right now. But first, my moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible.
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Starting point is 00:03:23 That's team at t-O-K-U.com. Justin Drake is going to make you very bullish. Justin Drake. Yeah, so I'm being sandwiched by Eric and Max, front run by Eric and then background by Max. Let's see how it goes. So I'd like to share some takes about the roadmap. And just as a point of disclaimer, these are my takes.
Starting point is 00:03:58 These are not official EF or roadmap takes or anything like that. So one of the things that as a researcher is getting me really, really excited is that I think we can take what is possibly humanity's most ambitious distributed systems roadmap and complete the whole thing within the next five years. And this is kind of what I wanted to try and communicate to an extent three days ago with the beam chain. And basically what I'm suggesting is that we take the hardest items in the roadmap, those that are very, very difficult to do incrementally in the short. term and kind of batch them in a single fork.
Starting point is 00:04:42 And there's been kind of different pieces of feedback. On the one hand, I've had amazingly positive feedback from the devs. And many, many people email the email address, many people message me on telegram and on Twitter and things like that. And today, I'm kind of very pleased to share kind of somewhat astonishingly that we have five new teams that have signaled interest in building a beam client. And so from the perspective of devs, I think there's a lot of excitement to participate in this new journey. But one of the things that have happened is that on crypto Twitter, the feedback was much more mixed.
Starting point is 00:05:27 In particular, this is possibly like my most hated slide ever, which is basically saying that, you know, it's going to take roughly four years from 2025 to 2029 to ship this extremely ambitious fork, and people want things in the next four months, not the next four years. And basically, I think the attitude of crypto Twitter is that we're going to enter this period of darkness. We have light at the end of the tunnel, but we have a five-year tunnel, and it's just going to be full darkness during that period of time. And I kind of want to explain that this is not the case. There is not going to be a massive void here between today and five years.
Starting point is 00:06:10 There's going to be a ton of stuff happening. A ton of stuff happening. Now, Ephraim L1 is made out of three sub-layers. So there's the execution layer in purple, the data layer in yellow, and the consensus layer in green. And what I'm going to do is kind of go through them one by one and try and share some of my takes. But I think the key message that I want to share here is that the performance of Ethereum over the next few years is going to increase incrementally, and it's going to be night and day. We're going to improve all the performance metrics that are key to the layer one. So what are the performance metrics for each?
Starting point is 00:07:01 For execution, the key performance metrics is Gat per second. How much can we turn through the EVM? For data, it's bytes per second or blobs per second. And one of the key performance metrics for consensus is latency. How fast is it take for transaction to be confirmed? And over the next few years, we're going to improve these three performance metrics. Now, for execution, the magical tool that we're going to use is ZK. And one of the tweets that kind of reflects this bullishness that I have is from John Gibbass.
Starting point is 00:07:39 John Gibus is one of the co-founders of succinct behind the SP1 ZKVM. And what he tweets is that we're going to prove the entirety of Ethereum on these bad boys. And these bad boys are like four filial machines, like four basically big server machines. And he believes that's enough to prove the entirety. of Ethereum. And one piece of interesting metadata here is the number of retweets. This tweet, which is extremely, extremely bullish,
Starting point is 00:08:13 got two retweets. People don't realize what is coming here. And so what myself and various others at the Ephemian Foundation are doing is building a new website. It's not live yet, but it will be called eFproofs.org. And this is basically a block explorer for ZKVMs.
Starting point is 00:08:31 So we're going to invite every single ZKVM vendor to prove L1 EVM blocks and for each block to provide a proof and disclose how much time it took them to generate the proof and how many cents it cost to generate the proof. And then basically the idea is to show the world that these ZKVMs are good enough for production and also create a little bit of a friendly competition between the ZKVMs with very, with various leaderboards so that we'll be able to see which ones are the best. And ultimately, what I think will happen is that this is going to kickstart a process where the whole Ethereum chain is going to be ZK proven by many, many different ZK vendors.
Starting point is 00:09:22 Now, one of the things I'm excited about snarkifying the entire EVM chain is that I won't have to run GIF. So I run a validator at home, and I have to run Geph, and I only have two terabytes of storage, and it's a massive pain when I have to re-sync, and it uses too much space, and it might use too much RAM or CPU. Well, very, very soon, I won't have to run Gep at home. I can run basically the ZK version of my execution client, for example, ZKGF instead. And what that means is that it will consume zero gigabytes of storage, and it will use 0% of my CPU.
Starting point is 00:10:02 and 0% of my RAM. It's going to be free to basically run an execution client. And so I think in a couple of years' time, we're going to be in a position, as I said, running an execution client is going to be optional as a validator. And in order to achieve that, we need the snark proving to be fast enough. We need the snark proofs to arrive to the attestors
Starting point is 00:10:25 soon enough that the attestors can confidently vote and know that the chain is indeed valid. And so for that, we're going to need subslot ZKVMs. We're going to need ZKVMs where the proof comes within one slot, and that means within 12 seconds. And I think that's going to happen by the end of next year. By the way, all of the dates that I say take it with a grain of salt, all of this is just a tentative straw man timeline.
Starting point is 00:10:54 And then another thing that is going to make this state of affairs really good is actually a proposal by the next speaker and Dan Robinson to delay the state routes by one slot. So if we delay state routes by one slot, then now we have the full slot in order to be able to prove the validity of these state routes. Okay, that's all great. Now, another thing that Snarks are going to do
Starting point is 00:11:19 in the roadmap is kind of reshuffle and maybe pivot the stateless approach. So right now we're on a verical, approach and basically I think what's going to happen is that we're going to move towards snark-based statelessness. And so one of the cool things that have happened in the last few weeks is basically the devs coming together and saying, hey, maybe we can skip Virkle and go all the way to the end game in one go, which is to use binary Merkel trees. And that has two advantages. Advantage number one is that it's much more snark-friendly. And two is that it's post-quantam secure.
Starting point is 00:11:57 And so all of this is just basically accelerating the roadmap around snarkification. Now, I promise that we're going to see massive, massive upgrades to the performance metric. And one of the key performance metrics that we have today is the gas limits. 30 million megagas per block. And I think we're going to grow that 100. within the next few years to three gigagas per block. Now, how can we do that safely? One of the key things to realize is that we would need all of the execution clients
Starting point is 00:12:44 to be able to keep up with the three gigagats. And there's kind of two strategies. Strategy number one is that your home validator and you no longer run GIF. You know, you run the ZK version of your execution client and verifying a block that consumes three megagas or three gigagas doesn't matter because it always takes one millisecond to verify the proof. Or the other approach is that if you want to naively reexecute everything, then you're going to need a very beefy computer,
Starting point is 00:13:18 and that's something that maybe the big operators can do. The big safety feature that we need to ship first before doing these big 10x gas limits, increases is to have something like multidimensional EIP-159. And the reason is that the only thing that we can increase is the gas limit for execution, but we can't have blocks be too big. So we need to have a separate limit for call data. And we can't have the state grow too fast.
Starting point is 00:13:49 So we need also a separate limit for state growth. So once we have these three different limits, we can have the first two stay relatively small and reasonable. and then basically pump the raw execution gas limits. And by raw execution, I mean, just things like arithmetic operations, like additions and multiplications and things like that. Now, not only can we scale the EVM horizontally and grow the gas limit by orders of magnitude,
Starting point is 00:14:17 we can also scale the EVM horizontally. And the idea here is what I call programmable execution sharding or another way to say it is programmable native roller. So once we snarkified the L1 EVM, we can expose within the EVM a ZKEVM pre-compile. And this is something that any developer can use to spawn a new instance of the EVM. And I think this is something that can be done,
Starting point is 00:14:49 maybe four years down the line before the five-year deadline comes. Okay, so that was execution. We can essentially have unlimited gas per second, right? Because we have unlimited number of EVM instances, and even individual EVM instances will grow dramatically in throughput. Now, what about data? The story with data is actually fairly straightforward.
Starting point is 00:15:20 We have roughly one fork per year. So the fork items are the one with the little red circles. and every time there's a fork, I imagine that we're going to see an increase in a number of blobs, and then we're going to see an exponential increase more or less. So a 2xing every single time. One of the big unlocks is going to be pared us, where we start doing data availability sampling,
Starting point is 00:15:44 where the validators don't have to download all of the blobs, but they only have to download these small challenges. And then the way that we do sampling is also going to improve with the 2D sampling here. But overall, the story is that we're going to have exponential growth over the next few years of the data, and that's going to allow for many, many more transactions on chain. And not only are we going to go to 128 blobs per block, but we can go way beyond that. And the reason is that we have Nielsen's law, which is basically the increase of natural increase of bandwidth over time,
Starting point is 00:16:20 on the order of roughly 50% per year. Now, here in the data section, I want to correct, or I want to share at least my opinion on various things that people say that I strongly disagree with. So a bunch of people say DA is abundant. I don't think DA is abundant. I think DA, and by DA, I mean like the highest quality kind of Ethereum grade DA is not abundant. And the reason is that Ethereum limits itself to home internet connections. And what Dankshadding does is that it's a multiplier over the number of internet connections. And the multiplier is roughly 100x. So what we're talking about here is providing 100 home internet connections for the whole internet of value. That is a tiny, tiny amount of supply.
Starting point is 00:17:19 DA is extremely scarce in the grand scheme of things. The other take that I disagree with is that DA is fungible. It's a commodity. So you could take Ethereum DA and just replace it with Celestia DA. And it's the same thing. It doesn't really matter. And the two big reasons why it does matter is shared security and shared synchrony. So the whole point of, you know, blockchain is, at least in the context of defy,
Starting point is 00:17:47 is to try and build these money Legos that are composable. And in order for one money Lego to feel comfortable composing with another money Lego, they need to know that this other money Lego is extremely secure, as secure as they are, and it's going to live for the next decades and centuries. But if you use some really weak external DA, then now suddenly you're going to lose shared security. But then maybe the bigger reason, and this is something that is going to play out as we have more and more tools for composability is this notion of synchronous composability. In order to have best in class composability between money legos, we need to have shared sequencing.
Starting point is 00:18:32 And the problem with DA like Celestia is that it introduces a new sequencer, right? Like Celestia is itself a blockchain with slots and each block is proposed by a new sequencer. And so now we have the Ethereum sequencer. the Celestial Sequencer, and we lose the opportunity to do synchronous composability. And so I think people are going to be willing to pay a big premium to consume Ethereum DA. And then the final reason has to do with the native roll-ups that I was talking about. It turns out that the pre-compile can only be consumed if the input data to the roll-up is on Ethereum. It has to be available so that anyone can produce the proofs for the validators.
Starting point is 00:19:25 Otherwise, there's an attack where someone can try and split the chain. That is going to be yet another reason why I think IFRMDA is going to be hugely valuable. And then finally, which is kind of the culmination of these two takes is that I think we're going to see crazy high aggregate data fees. right people say that DA is going to be you know it's not going to be a source of revenue that we're not going to have high fees and I completely disagree with it and this is something that I shared in my latest bankless podcast I think we're going to potentially see billions of dollars per day
Starting point is 00:20:07 of fee revenue from the fees and that doesn't mean that the individual fees are going to be high the individual fees can be subsent but the aggregate fees for the whole internet of value in terms of DA consumption can be as high as billions of dollars per day. Okay, so we're dramatically improving the performance of execution, dramatically improving the performance of data. What about consensus? So a lot of people talk about, you know, having ultra-fast slot times, right?
Starting point is 00:20:42 Why don't we have one second slot times or 400 milliseconds slot times? And my take here is that slot times very soon are not going to matter as much as they matter today. And the reason is that we're going to have pre-confirmations. And we're already starting to see this. If you use arbitram, for example, you have 250 milliseconds slot times. It doesn't matter that the L1 uses 12 seconds slot times. If it were to upgrade to one second slot times, that wouldn't make any difference whatsoever to the users of arbitram.
Starting point is 00:21:14 Same thing for Unichain. Unichain also has 250 milliseconds slot times, faster than Solana, by the way. But that doesn't mean that, well, that's maybe a reason for not needing to prioritize small slot times. And I think the same thing is going to happen for base roll-ups. Even if you use the L1 decentralized sequencer for your roll-up, you won't need to have,
Starting point is 00:21:41 you will need to pay the cost of slow ux. And my rough take basically is that within a couple years, the vast majority of transactions are going to be pre-confirmed. And they're going to be pre-confirmed much, much, much faster than even the slot duration on Ethereum. Oh, sorry, on Solano. Now, the other big upgrade that could happen to the Ethereum layer, consensus layer, is stake capping.
Starting point is 00:22:17 And what state capping does, it improves another performance metric of consensus, which is the security budget. Like, how much money do I need to spend per year to secure my, to provide enough security for the consensus layer? And right now, we're paying many, billions of dollars, roughly five billion dollars per year to secure Ethereum, and if the price of if we were to 10x, then we'd potentially be paying tens of billions of dollars per year. And so what I think could happen in terms of improving one of the other key performance metrics
Starting point is 00:22:57 is this notion of state capping. And this would be an incremental upgrade that would happen way before the beam fork at the very end. Now, in order to do state capping, we need to solve the problem of MEV. And the reason is that if we have low issuance, but high MEV, then almost all of the income is going to come from MEV, but the MEV has a problem. It's extremely spiky, it's extremely volatile. And so we need to either smooth the MEV or get rid of the MEV somehow. And this is exactly what a tester-proposer separation does. A test-a-proposer separation basically opens up the MEV market to the broader ecosystem. and it segregates MEV away from the validators.
Starting point is 00:23:46 But in order to get APS, we're going to need inclusion lists. And so you see here there's a little bit of a dependency in order to dramatically improve this, we're going to need this, and to get this, we're going to need this. And so the good news here is that we already have an EIP for fossil. It won't go in the next fork because all of the items have been scheduled for the next fork. but I believe it will go in the one after that. Now, another big thing that I'm excited about,
Starting point is 00:24:18 the consensus layer, is not just performance, but it's health, right? Because ultimately, the way that I think about it, and here I'm stealing this meme from someone else, which is that the L1 is going to compete with Bitcoin and the L2s are going to compete with Solana. And so the L1 needs to be as healthy, as secure, as robust as possible. And so one of the key things that we need to do to achieve this really strong foundation is to make the L1 very, very friendly to solar validators. And APS is a massive step in that direction.
Starting point is 00:24:55 And the reason is that today, to be a very competitive validator, you have to worry about many things. You have to worry about timing games. You have to worry about MEV spikes. Soon you're going to have to worry about the infrastructure to provide pre-confirmations. you need to pick relays and things like that. All of these worries will disappear, and your main duty will be to just attest and build inclusion lists.
Starting point is 00:25:20 Now, the other big improvement is that should happen incrementally is this notion of one-if-validators. Today, in order to become a validator, you need 32-if. This is what I call whale-staking. You need to be a whale. You need to have at least 32-if,
Starting point is 00:25:38 which is $100,000. to participate as a validator, why don't we reduce that by one and a half orders of magnitude? And in order to get the one-eif validators, it's a very similar story to stake capping. There's like some groundwork that we need to do ahead of time. So what we need is basically the validators to start consolidating,
Starting point is 00:26:01 because there's basically two ideas to get one-if validators. Number one is what's called orbit, and the other one is called two-tid staking. But in both cases, we need some amount of consolidation. And in order to get consolidation, we need to increase the maximum effective balance. And this is coming in the next fork. And so you see here, we're planting seeds because we have this long duration view. And one by one, these things kind of play out.
Starting point is 00:26:31 And then we get to reap the benefits from our investments. And then the final thing that we're going to dramatically improve. on as a solo staker is this notion of feather staking. Once we've fully snorkeified the consensus layer and the execution layer, the meme is that you'll be able to stake on your smartwatch. You won't need a laptop, you won't need a Raspberry Pi, you'll need the most minimal amount of infrastructure. And so when you combine the three things,
Starting point is 00:27:05 fish staking, Zen staking, and feather staking, what I expect will happen is we're going to see a renaissance of solar validators. We're going to see tens of thousands of little validators coming up, and that's going to be extremely healthy for Ephraim L1, and it's going to make it the most robust chain in the world. And so that is the summary slide. So much is going to happen in the next few years, and this is kind of a call to action,
Starting point is 00:27:38 an invitation to be bullish about the future, not just the long-term future in five years, but also the short and medium-term future. Thank you. We got time for a couple of questions, a couple of questions. Whoever raises their hand first? No questions? One question. One question.
Starting point is 00:28:05 Can you talk a little bit about APS, and do you see that being a centralization risk to Ethereum at all? Okay, fantastic question. And this is a recurring question, and so I hope that. as a community, we can try and get through this. So APS, what it does is that it opens up block building to the broader market of sophisticated actors. And so what we should expect is that the most sophisticated actors will be building the majority of the blocks.
Starting point is 00:28:40 And that sounds terrible. But the good news is that actually self-building is going to thrive in that context. and that's thanks to the context, that's thanks to inclusion lists. So with inclusion lists, we have 16 validators at every single slot that are going to be self-building the inclusion lists. And what is an inclusion list? It's basically a list of transactions that have to be included by the sophisticated builder.
Starting point is 00:29:08 So we're going to take the 16 inclusion list. We're going to take the union of them, and that's going to be the transactions that need to go in the next block. And why is that extremely positive? The reason is that I expect the vast majority of transactions that ultimately go on chain will be included in the inclusion list. And so the shift of mental model that I have is that almost all of the block building, call it 95% of it, is going to happen by the inclusion lists and the validators.
Starting point is 00:29:39 And then the builders are just going to do a little bit of polishing at the end. They're going to add maybe one transaction at the very top to do some front running, maybe one transaction at the very bottom to do some backrunning, they're going to reorder transactions a little bit so that they can extract a bit of MEV. But ultimately, the bulk of the building is going to happen in a distributed manner from very unsophisticated and weak builders. And yeah, the meme that I have is that the validators
Starting point is 00:30:07 provide the raw material for the blocks, for the inclusion list, and the builders are merely polishes. They merely kind of polish things here, and to produce the final block. One last question before we bring Macostresnik on. Over there, over there. Here we go. I'm coming.
Starting point is 00:30:28 Hello. I wonder if you asked any application developers about feedback for your roadmap and what was their feedback and what kind of things you included there that help application developers specifically. Right, good question. I mean, I'm, you know, very much in touch with the community through, you know,
Starting point is 00:30:56 for following crypto Twitter and for coming to conferences and whatnot. And to be fair, I haven't gotten that much negative feedback other than the, basically, two of them. One is the fragmentation problem and two is, you know, the scalability problem. On the fragmentation point of things, which is basically, I guess, Eric's talk just before me, I think we have a very good roadmap. And this is something that I've been talking about for all of this year, which is this notion of the united chains of Ethereum that comes from shared sequencing and real-time proving. And in order to achieve Ethereum-wide shared sequencing,
Starting point is 00:31:42 my proposed solution is based sequencing and based for. And maybe this is an opportunity to have some sort of a debate with Eric or a discussion with him because I think he's kind of too bearish on the fragmentation issue. I think it's going to be solved in the coming months and years. In terms of the scalability, I guess one of the common complaints is that, you know, I guess one of the common complaints is that, you know, On Solana, for example, I can trade meme coins, you know, tens of times per minute, and it's extremely fluid, it's extremely cheap, and I can't really do that on Ethereum. Well, pre-confirmations are going to dramatically improve the U.S. is going to be faster than Solana. And in terms of the fees, this is where, you know, increasing the amount of DA comes into play. Now, if the only thing that you're doing is trading meme coins, then you don't even need Ethereum DA.
Starting point is 00:32:51 You can just use some very cheap DA, like Celestea or eigenDA. And so what I expect will happen is that meme coin trading in 2025 is going to be cheaper than Solana and faster than Solana. And so there is a possibility if the meme coin builders want to come to Ethereum, to basically, migrate in 2025 once we have the infrastructure in place, especially with the pre-confirmations. Round of applause for Justin Drake, everyone. Thank you. New projects are coming online to the Mantle Layer 2 every single week. Why is this happening? Maybe it's because Mantle has been on the frontier of Layer 2 design architecture since it first started building Mantle DA powered by technology from EigenDA.
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Starting point is 00:34:07 or you're a user looking to claim some ownership on Mantle's defy apps, click the link in the show notes to getting started with Mantle. The Uniswap Wall is officially the preferred wallet of bankless, And it's the one we use any time when we want to transact on chain. Whether you're on your browser or on the go, Uniswap wallet makes it easier than ever to swap anytime, anywhere. Use your wallet to transfer funds directly from a top centralized exchange and taping thousands of tokens across Ethereum. And over 10 other chains like base, arbitram, and optimism. Uniswap wallet delivers deep liquidity, fast execution, and reliable quotes with zero gas swaps through Uniswap X.
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Starting point is 00:35:00 Enter the Unlimited era with DYDX unlimited. Featuring instant market listings where you can list and trade any market instantly with liquidity. Experience trading like never before with all the trading tools you know and love all on chain. And then there's Megavolt. way to automatic liquidity and yield. Just deposit some USC and start earning yield immediately. It's so simple and DYDX unlimited comes packed with so much more. Leverage, prediction market perpetual futures, instant deposits, and there's even a revamped trading rewards program to get rewarded for every time you make a trade. So go ahead and check
Starting point is 00:35:30 out DYDX on Twitter at DYDX to get notified once DYDX unlimited launches.

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