Bankless - Dmitry Buterin | Layer Zero

Episode Date: August 24, 2021

Dmitry Buterin joins David for the premiere of Layer Zero, a new Bankless podcast that explores the human side of Ethereum. Beneath the technological innovation and socioeconomic disruption happening in the DeFi space, there are human beings – really interesting, thoughtful, passionate human beings. Layer Zero is at the bottom of the economic stack: the people. For the debut episode, it only made sense to bring on Dmitry, father of Ethereum founder Vitalik. Topics include Vitalik’s youth, Soviet Russia, and universal consciousness, but they don’t stop there. How often does Dmitry check ETH Price? What’s his workout routine? Tune in and find out. ------ 🚀 SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/  🎙️ SUBSCRIBE TO PODCAST: http://podcast.banklesshq.com/  🎖 CLAIM YOUR BADGE: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/-guide-2-using-the-bankless-badge  ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: ⚖️ ARBITRUM | SCALING ETHEREUM https://bankless.cc/Arbitrum  🍵 MATCHA | DECENTRALIZED EXCHANGE AGGREGATOR https://bankless.cc/Matcha  🔐 LEDGER | SECURE YOUR ASSETS https://bankless.cc/Ledger  🦄 UNISWAP | DECENTRALIZED FUNDING https://bankless.cc/UniGrants  ------ 📣 TracerDAO | Building DeFi Infrastructure. Join the Discord! https://bankless.cc/TracerDAO  ------ Topics Covered: 0:00 Intro 4:00 Dmitry Buterin 6:30 Growing Up in the Soviet Union 11:27 Learning Computer Science 17:02 Vitalik’s Youth 20:58 A Gifted Kid 22:43 Mindfulness & Spirituality 26:43 Kindness & Compassion 32:00 Ethereum & Spirituality 39:57 Political Compass 45:21 Canada & Vitalik’s Social Skills 49:20 The World Traveler 55:29 Conferences & Safety 1:00:23 ETH Price 1:01:48 Exercise 1:03:52 Hanging Out 1:04:53 A Chaotic World 1:07:00 Consciousness & Communism 1:15:56 A March to Universal Consciousness 1:18:48 Exporting Values ------ Resources: Dmitry on Twitter: https://twitter.com/BlockGeekDima?s=20  ----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/bankless-disclosures 

Welcome to Layer Zero. Layer Zero is a podcast of unscripted conversations with the people that make up the Ethereum community. Ethereum is built by code, but it's composed by people. And each individual member of the Ethereum community has their own story to tell. CipherPunks understood that the code they write impacts the people that use it. And Layer Zero focuses on the people behind the code because Ethereum is people all the way down. And it always has been.

On the first episode of Layer Zero, I'm excited to have a conversation with Dmitri Buteran. And if we're calling this Layer Zero, I think Dimitri Buteran might be Layer Negative 1. Demetri Buteran is the father of Fatalic Buteran, the guy that kicked off this whole Ethereum movement. And I really wanted to have him on as the first guest because of the relationship between the DNA of the people that make up this industry and the actual things that come to manifest on it in code. I think there's a relationship there. Dmitri was born in Russia and was raised in communist Russia. And we go through the story of what that was like, his first introduction into computers, his computer science major at university.

And then moving into the world, he's in now where he lives in Canada. Dmitri is focused on the world of meditation and mindfulness. And that is a topic of conversation that I'm, also very interested in as well. And so we talk about, in addition to many other things, the relationship between Ethereum and acceptance and kindness and how the protocol is a reflection of the values of the people that built it, as the introduction to this podcast just suggested. And then we also talked about what it's like to be Vitalik's Dat and watch this kid go around the world, trying to garner support for this Ethereum thing, even before we all knew that

Ethereum was going to be what it was going to be. I think you're going to enjoy this conversation with Dimitri at Buteran, and I hope that you enjoy all future podcasts with the people that you've already listened to podcasts to before, but in a different context about how the people that compose this ecosystem make up the code that dictates our lives. And so without further ado, I bring you Demetri Buterin, but first, a message from these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible. Arbitrum is an Ethereum scaling solution that is going to completely change how we use DFI. If you've been using Ethereum for the past 12 months, you've probably noticed the high gas fees and the slow confirmation times that have been plaguing DFI.

Too many people want to use Ethereum and it doesn't have enough capacity for all of us. That's where Arbitrum comes in. Arbitrum is a layer two to Ethereum, which means Arbitrum can increase Ethereum's throughput by orders of magnitude at a fraction of the cost of what you are used to paying. When interacting with Arbitrum, you can get the performance of a centralized exchange while tapping into Ethereum's level of security and decentralization. This is why people are calling this Ethereum's broadband moment, where we get to add performance onto decentralization and security. If you're a developer and you want to save on gas costs,

and overall make a better experience for your users, go to developer.offchainlabs.com to get started building on Arbitrum. If you're a user, keep an eye out for your favorite DFI apps building on Arbitrum. Arbitrum has been working with over 300 teams, including Ethereum's top infrastructure projects, and will be opening up to all users shortly. There are so many apps coming online to Arbitrum, so you may want to pack your bags in preparation for the great migration to Arbitrum layer 2. To get up to speed with Arbitrum, follow them on Twitter at Arbitrum and join their Discord. Bankless is proud to be supported by Uniswap.

Uniswap is a new paradigm in asset exchange infrastructure. Instead of a cumbersome order book system where trades are matched with other humans, Uniswap is an autonomous piece of software on Ethereum, which is what Ryan and I call a money robot. No human counterparties or centralized intermediaries, just autonomous code on Ethereum. Input the token you want to sell and receive the token you want to buy. Something brand new in the Uniswop ecosystem is the Uniswap Grants program is now accepting applications for grants. We have been saying this for a while and will say it again. DOWs have money and they are in need of labor.

If you think that you have something to contribute to the Uniswop Dow, apply for a grant to Uniswap. Just look at the size of the Uniswap treasury. It's almost $3 billion. This mountain of capital is looking for labor. Do you have something of value to contribute to the Uniswap Dow? No matter how big or small your idea is, you can apply for a UniGrant at Unigrants.org and help steer Uniswap in the direction that you think it should go. That's exactly what we did to get Uniswap to be a sponsor for bankless,

and you can do the same for your project. Thank you, Uniswap, for sponsoring bankless. All right, everyone, I'm here with Dimitri Buterin, the founder of Vitalik. I had to steal that joke from Laura Shin. She was the one that made that. Dimitri, welcome to Layer Zero, the first ever guest on the first ever episode of this new podcast.

Welcome. Hey. So for listeners who are trying to get a, grip for what layer zero is. Layer zero is about the people that compose this community, this fantastic community that we are all a part of. And Dimitri Buteran is Vitalik Buteran's father. So technically he's like layer negative one, whatever comes right, right before, right before zero. And so I think this is going to be a fantastic conversation to kick off this new show. So Dimitri, I'm excited to get into some non-Etherium, non-Defi-related subjects. And maybe we touch

on them later. Yeah, totally. And I think I love their, I love the name, Level Zero, right? And I was just reading some articles this morning about governance and this and that, right? And people, again, we people want safety and stability. It's like, you know, code is law. But the thing is like, code is raining by humans. And code will be full of bugs. Humans are full of bugs. And, you know, this is a never-ending process of, you know, it's a feedback loop. So really, it's really important to focus on that invisible layer because it's, I mean, invisible in the code, right? But it's an extremely important aspect of this whole ecosystem, right? Yeah, at the end of the day, if all of the humans of the world disagree with the code, then the code is invalid. And it doesn't matter. And it's back to the human layer. I want to go all the way back and kind of ask you, what was it like to grow up in Russia?

What was that like? And what city did you grow up in? I grew up in the city called Grozny in a place called Chechnya, so that southern part of Russia are close to the Afghanistan border. And, you know, it wasn't so much Russia. It was Soviet Union, right? And it was interesting, right? Because end of the day, we have all kinds of memories from our childhood, some good and bad. And depending on our current emotion, you know, some can prevent.

So there was all kinds of stuff in that childhood, you know, having fun. You know, I had a very curious mind and I think I still do and doing fun stuff and, you know, trying to blow things up and then getting interesting electronics and whatnot, having to learn some disciplines, going into swimming, this and that, getting lots of propaganda from the state, you know. The state was this all-powerful benevolent force that was doing everything, right? and entrepreneurship was considered to be bad. And again, like, everything is done by the state, and the state is perfect.

And, you know, we were all standing in this, doing this concerts and singing hints to Lenny and communism and whatnot. But as you grow a little bit, then you see all this, you know, discrepancy between what you've been taught and between what's actually happening, right? Nobody is really believing that. Everybody is just kind of playing the games. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's kind of do this. But now let's talk about real life, right? So it was really fascinating environment to kind of look at all of that stuff. I'm assuming there's some semblance of resonance with this.

But when growing up in America, there's always the question of like what you want to be when you grow up. What was that question like for you in Russia? What form did that question come in? well I guess it's supposed to come up pretty much for every child I don't recall that's ever really coming up for me and again maybe it's part of their social cultural level and you know socialist that Soviet Union was right but it's kind of you just feeling like you're part of this you're a meaningless part of this huge blob of stuff and the blob is moving somewhere and you will be told what to do. You, you know, you will be told where to work and kind of you will be, you know, the kind of money you make and will be defined for you,

all of this stuff. And yes, you will be, you know, for healthcare and education, blah, blah, blah. So you just do what you talk, right? And it's really interesting because it's also, you can see that even in modern Russia, which is very different and went very far from the Soviet Union. but the whole concept of there's a huge difference in that in the West and especially in the States, there is this respect for the individual. And in that society, it's like individual means nothing. You know, we can easily just move a million people here. We can kill, you know, 10 millions here and they don't matter.

You know, just their collective matters and an individual doesn't matter. So did you have that question answered for yourself inside of your own head? Or did you not even think to ask the question like, what do I want to do with my life later? I mean, when I got old, you know, as I was growing up, I was just kind of following the things that were of interest to me, especially as I realized that or I don't have to just kind of follow the things that I've been pushed to by my parents and whatnot. not. And, you know, I always, I had a huge library at home, which was really awesome. It really helped me grow and satisfy my curiosity about life and everything. And there was lots of, lots of kind of books about science and math and puzzles and stuff like that and sci-fi. Even though it was pretty hard to get books in the Soviet Union, it was funny. Like, actually,

to get some new books, you actually have to submit into recycling. like, you know, 10 kilos of old books, stuff like that. So I got interested eventually in electronics, and then I got interested in cybernetics and kind of basic computer systems and the grammar calculators. So by the time I finished school, high school, if you want, and I knew that, okay, I really want to study computers and stuff related to that. And I chose the university, and I went for that.

do you remember your first introduction to a computer like what was the first time you touched a computer i probably was maybe 15 maybe 16 oh yeah probably somewhere around that age and the first my first experience was with this uh you know in school we got so we're supposed to get some kind of hands-on experience uh some you know not outside of regular learning that you get some hands-on experience with in a particular whatever factory organization, right? And in this case, we're at some kind of

I don't even remember what the organization was, but they had this, what do you call them a mini computer, right? Like, you know, when you have terminals and you have this huge computer somewhere and then you have printers and whatnot. And yeah, it was really

excited to kind of be being able to kind of touch that. And then they had some experience with personal computers. And maybe even before that, probably my first introduction was a programmable calculator, right? Like Soviet Union was like was not known for creativity, but it was just ruthlessly copying all this stuff it could steal and copy from the West. So I believe that the programmable calculator that they had, it was just a copy of something that was created in the West, a couple of whatever decades or a decade before that. And it was this scientific

calculator which had 100 bytes of memory and that memory was all that you had for data and for code. And it was really cool as I kind of was reading some magazines and trying to, and it didn't have any, it only had RAMs. So you switch it on, you have to type in the codes and then you run it and does their calculation. And people were actually still building some little games on that, right? and their inventiveness of kind of building stuff, you know, in 100 bytes of machine codes that kind of fascinated me. It was so cool to kind of learn about that and try to play with that and whatnot. I remember doing the same thing in math class with my, like, TI 84,

and everyone who was bored in math class would figure out that, like, you could make, like, different patterns by putting numbers in. You press enter and you would see it scroll. you can make like, you make little mazes. I don't know how many bytes of memory that Ti-84's had, but that was my introduction. It was definitely just an entertainment tool for kids that were bored in math class. Yeah.

And, you know, also my curiosity always kind of then pushed me to explore. Okay, so this is how it works. Interesting. Now, what happens if I press all of these buttons? What happens when I do this? What happens when, you know, it says it's like there's no more memory, but then I try to put another. keep going to comment, you know, stuff like that.

So like I got really interested in the concept of what is now known as hacking, right? But basically trying to, okay, so here's a complex system that does what it's supposed to do. Now, what can we do with it that it's not supposed to do? Would you say that like computers resonated with you particularly or were you just a normal, like, you know, teenage boy that gets fascinated by gadgets? Did you have any particular resonance? There were no gadgets around me. You know, like in the Soviet Union, like, you know, first of all, so I grew up in like in the end of 70s and then the 80s, right? So very few gadgets again, like Soviet Union was extremely poor compared to the West.

And access to this kind of stuff was extremely limited and made it accessible to the elite. So computers were the most, I mean, I only got access to them when I was in my teenage years. And they were really hard to get access to. And they fascinated me with their level of complexity, you know. And so you went to school for computer science or cybernetics? Yeah, computer science. What's cybernetics? I mean, it had like a long complex name, like, you know, software applications for computer systems, whatever.

And then what was your like first job out of school or career path that that you got out of that? The very first job, I was a software engineer actually in a bank. In a bank, huh? Nice. And then where in this story did you meet Vitalik's mom? In the university, yeah. At a matter of university. Yeah.

What was she studying? We were studying together. What was she studying? Same thing. Same thing, yeah. Ah, okay. So we had two computer nerds meet because of computers, huh? Yeah.

And at that age, computers have fun, but then also, oh, what about booze and sex and what? That's fascinating, too. Blues, huh? Was blues a thing in Russia? No, booze. Oh, booze. Oh, I thought you know. Okay, fair enough.

Yeah. Can you tell me that story of how you met Vitalik's mom? Well, it was just, she was in my class, you know. And then exactly how it unfolded it, you know, it's really hard to imagine. remember that it was you know whatever 30 plus years ago yeah interesting interesting so when one of one of the reasons why I was asking about computers is because like I would imagine when Vitalik was growing up when if you plopped him in front of a computer he would just like magnet like gravitate right right towards it would you say that was true yeah totally right and you know also for many parents we kind

we end up trying to live our dreams through our kids, right? You know, like when we're kids, there were still things that were somehow not able to do and get access to, right? And, you know, then you buy all these Lego sets and it's part of you really wants to play with them. It's like, oh, no, it's for my kid because it's also hard for you to admit that big part of you just wants to play with that too, right? So when Vidalik was growing up, I'm like, oh, man, I really, when I was younger,

I really wish that I had access to computers. So this kid seems to be really smart. So let's put a computer in front of him and let's see what he does with that. Right. So I think like from an age of whatever it was four or five, he got extremely curious and interested in playing with computers and, you know, that old IBMPC that we gave him. So feel free to just not answer any question that becomes too personal.

but how soon after you met Vitalik's mom did you guys have Vitalik? I mean, we met in 89 in the university, right? And Vitalik was born in 94. Okay. And so by the time Vitalik was born and was actually like a functional being that could actually play with a computer, where computers are far more accessible at that point than when you were a kid, I'm not sure, right? And so you guys just had one in the home?

Yeah, we had an old IBM PC and, you know, we now had access to computers and even, you know, can you imagine laptops, you know, for personal use. So then like, okay, but computers were still considered to be extremely valuable and rare and expensive. So we just kind of had an old one that we gave to him to explore and play with. What could you do on that computer? Like what were some of the, what would you do? were their games? No, not really. I mean, very few, but Excel, actually.

There was Microsoft Office installed on that. And he loved Excel because it was such a diverse tool, you know, because initially he was not interested in like Excel as such. But in Excel, then you could draw circles and you can fill them with color, you can draw lines. I mean, you can do all kinds of stuff, draw and whatever. But very quickly, he also would interest in. actual Excel functions and then like, okay, you put, because he learned about numbers very

early on and math was kind of obsession and joy for him, right? So, and once he figured out, oh, I can put a number here and then here and then through functions and stuff like that, then he got really fascinated with just doing stuff within Excel, doing functions and whatnot. And later on when he was maybe, I'm guessing maybe around seven, the kind of the thing, first programming language that also easily accessible on that old computer that was using was visual basic for, you know, built, visual basic for applications, which was built into Microsoft office. And that was kind of the first thing that I was teaching him a little bit. That's funny because people often, one of the most salient metaphors I've heard about Ethereum

lately came out of the Tim Ferriss podcast with Naval. And he illustrated Ethereum as just like a global Excel sheet that we all can, like, write to. And you're telling me that Vitalik's first two, like, things about him was his obsession with math and his tinkering with Excel. Yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome. You can just extrapolate that right into the future. So obviously, everyone in Ethereum holds Vitalik with, you know, an insane amount of regard. And obviously, he, like, invented Ethereum. So there's some, some history of incredible about to Vitalik. But when in Vitalik's like childhood, would you say was the first inclination

that this kid was different or special in any way? Was it obvious? Or was it not obvious? Every child is different and special, right? And, you know, in different ways. And every child, then they have their own peculiarities and quirks and struggles. But I mean, his, uh, him being very smart and, you know, learn very easily was pretty obvious by, I don't know, like three years old, right? Like I learned to read, I think, around three and a half years of age, and I think that Vitalik, I don't really recall, but he probably learned to read before that. Like, you know, maybe he was around three. So kind of when you see that child is really taken into this abstract notions of symbols first for reading and then for math, you know, then it becomes kind of quite

obvious. So it looks like his brain is really enjoying exploring those kind of concepts. And you know, when he was, say, six and he was playing with Lego sets and he was not building like castles and whatnot, but he was like, oh, I built a six and here's a five. And then there were some kind of animated, some kind of special digital animals and whatnot. And so it was again, like he was playing with math, but also not just in his head, but through the physical world. And Dimitri, I know you're really big into the concept of spirituality and mindfulness and meditation. When did that come and become a part of your life?

The evolution of this, I think it was like, again, I always had this innate energy of curiosity, right? So for me, first as a child, it was expressed in my desire to learn science. and math and physics and stuff and whatever. And then computers, right? And then eventually kind of then curiosity of like, okay, what kind of other objects are there in the world? And then, okay, humans obviously, some of very common and extremely complex objects and

like, oh, how do humans work? And I got interested in the subject of personal development and things like that, right? And then eventually psychology. And then through that, eventually it was. Sam Harris. I know if you're familiar with the name, but kind of he's the guy whose book finally kind of got me into this whole, if you will, spirituality direction, because also I had lots of resistance to that. Like, growing up, one huge aspect of Soviet propaganda was that religion is bad, bad, bad. And so anything in that whole space, you know, religion and spirituality for me,

I consider that to be in this whole space. And I was like, oh, no, this is kind of bad, stupid, you know, useless stuff. So that's kind of not go there. And kind of Sam Harris, I read his book. And then that kind of really helped me to find a different perspective on that. Do you know when you read that book? Yeah. Well, I mean, approximately it was probably when I was about maybe 40 years old.

So like let's say nine years ago, nine years ago maybe. Yeah. Okay. So I mean, I read a bunch of stuff before that, you know, and I tried, you know, I love reading and I still do. And I always read a lot of stuff. And I tried reading stuff about, you know, meditation and Buddhism and whatnot. And back, you know, before his book, most of the stuff was kind of really hard for me to read. But then eventually, when I overcame this, you know, now I can talk to anybody about any kind of religion, about God, about whatever you want to talk to me.

Right. Because I can kind of map the concept that they use to my own understanding of the universe, if you will. So would you say that like when you discovered mindfulness and meditation and this realm of the universe, which I find particularly fascinating, and I also credit Sam Harris is kind of like being my guide into this world as well. would you say that like you were already inclined to be a mindful person like maybe you are already mindful even though you didn't really hadn't yet been introduced to the concept or would you say that this was like a brand new concept that you found fascinating that you had to like start from scratch with well mindfulness is just like one of their aspects branches of that whole space if you will. So mindfulness specifically was not not a huge aspect of that space for me. And I would not

call myself a mindful person. I was really very much in my thinking head, in my analytical brain, you know, thinking about stuff and whatnot. So here's what I've been trying to weave together for like the past like 50 minutes. Because like this podcast is called layer zero. We, these these cryptoeconomic networks are made up of humans uh you you raised the human that made this ethereum thing that we all are a community a part of and and you know sorry to interrupt right but he has not made it by himself right yes and i have not absolutely right made vitalic on my own right right right right right right because again vitalic is who he is because of so many aspects and humans and other factors, right? And, you know, and then Ethereum is also is a

where it is because of so many other people collaborating on that. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And I, just to, that's 100% right is like nothing is made in a silo. But what I find, what I find fascinating is that like generally the Ethereum community at large, I think it would be accurate to say is largely a, it's a very inclusive community, very friendly. And I think as you get closer and closer to the core of the Ethereum developers, the people that are actually writing the code, you find that to become more and more true. And so like, I know people like Carl Flores, who I just talk to from optimism and just another, other, the circle of people that I think Vitalik kind of like associates and hangs out with, all kind of share the same sort of inclusion, zenness,

mindfulness about the world. And I see that, like, instantiated in Ethereum. And so I've always been fascinated. And one of the reasons why I wanted to lead Layer Zero with you is there's this relationship between some mindfulness, in my opinion, which promotes inclusivity, which actually dictates some of how we actually build this system. because Ethereum is Maybe maybe

the word mindfulness is not the best label for this. Yeah, maybe Mindfulness for me is kind of like is really about being deeply immersed in your perceptions connected with them and whatnot including new emotions,

your perceptions. And Vitalik is not quite that. And I'm not that to, you know, to some degree. But I would call the energy that you describe indifferently, you know, and the most simplistic term for this as kindness,

but also you can talk about acceptance and compassion, right? And I do know that when this whole Ethereum thing was starting a bunch of people who are not even usually named as an official co-founders, right? But I know that what they were talking about is that they wanted to create a community that would be inclusive, that, you know, would be built on the foundation of like being open and having a dialogue and stuff like that, right? And again, like people who have met Vitalik who has spoken to him, they can sense that energy of kindness and acceptance in him, right? And, you know, that's, that's kind of, this is a very powerful energy.

Kind of all of us humans, we really drawn to that. A hundred percent. And I think the reason why I was using the term, the word mindfulness is because to me, if you practice mindfulness, you become kind, right? you become and you can appreciate the perspective of others. Like you get more empathy. You become more inclusive. And so maybe that's why I was using the word mindfulness. Right, right.

Well, and you know what? That energy, if you will, kindness and compassion, I know that in my human being that always has been a very strong energy and kind of being mindful or, you know, different mindfulness methods and practices that kind of help me, or you know, they probably contribute. then to that energy being developed, right? And again, Vitalik, because of the unique combination of attributes in him as a human being, again, their intellect for sure, right?

But then also, again, he's a very sensitive person. He's also a very kind and compassionate person, right? And, you know, those kind of things like, you know, they are some of the important energies that you can sense on him. Absolutely. Absolutely. One thing I'd like to ask you is how would you define spirituality? Because to me, everyone kind of defines it differently. Yeah, exactly, right? Like, you know, the word doesn't mean that much. But what does it mean to you?

Like in general, you know, I like labels don't mean much to me, right? But for me, spirituality is if you will investigation and sensitivity to well investigation of some of the most fundamental questions about ourselves like

what we are what is this kind of what is consciousness and stuff like that who's in church where is all of this coming from right so spirituality for me is the whole space So when people investigate that, and there are many different avenues from many different practices, from whatever, meditation, to mushrooms to LSD, to chanting and drums and sweat lodges and whatnot, right? People investigate that, and there's also philosophers and writers, so many ways people tackle that, but really they're trying to kind of hear the most fundamental questions of who we are and where this whole thing is going and what does it all mean.

Do you think Ethereum is relevant to the concept or topic of spirituality? So topic of spirituality, again, if I think about this as asking those, the most important questions, right? And when you ask those questions, it also takes you away from judgments, like, oh, things should be this way, right? Then, like, you develop sensitivity. you're like, okay, so where things are, and instead of judging situations, then you kind of start observing. And then when you observe,

then you actually develop what many people refer to as intuition, right? It's kind of when you're limited analytical mind instead of kind of trying to extrapolate very few little details until like, oh, I know what it is, but instead when you develop more and more sensitivity to this high-level patterns, then you see, oh, you know, here are all the different patterns that are happening in the world. You can also see this as the space as the universe is doing so many experiments, you know,

look at the US. They run one experiment with Trump. Okay, now there is another experiment with Joe Biden, right? Russia is currently running a totally different experiment. And kind of if you look at this, from this perspective, you can see that, yeah, the universe has been running a bunch of very, if you will, authoritarian experiments and the, whatever, last few hundred years, if you will. And they seems to have been failing, right? It also tried to do this, I mean, collectivist experiments, which kind of ended up being

really the same thing, you know, just in a disguise, very authoritarian. So it sounds to me that the answer of the universe, their concentration of power and fragility is not really working out in life, if you will, right? So Ethereum is that technological experiment that the universe is running that very much corresponds to the findings that the humanity has their insights, the humanity has developed over a long time about what works and what doesn't, right? Because, and there are many different aspects to this, but even, like, if you compare Ethereum to Bitcoin, right?

Again, Bitcoin is very strong. It's trying to be very strong and simple, right? And there's a lot of power in simplicity and this confidence. Like, we're perfect, never going to change. This is it. And, you know, it's amazing. Like, this attracts a lot of, like, people who wants to fill this energy of confidence and safety and whatnot.

But life will never be safe, you know. like, you know, and any kind of like one analogy I'll give it to you, right? Many people, one aspect of a human journey is like many people start with a victim. So you know, here's me, I'm weak, I'm small, the university doing stuff to me. Then people move on to this achiever position like, oh no, I can do stuff, I can be disciplined, I can achieve stuff, I can be strong. And it's an awesome phase, but it's by far not the final phase because however strong, are, end up, you know, there will be storms in life that will mess you up.

You know, people close to you will get sick and die. Things will happen. You will lose money, whatever. Right. So being strong and just trying to resist everything is a very limited strategy. You know, like long term, it always breaks, right? So Ethereum is a different kind of experiment, if you will, for me. It's more reflective of what life has found actually worked.

kind of long term. It's a much softer open and resilient system, the system that keeps evolving, right, like talking about monetary policy, talking about so many other things, right? And those systems there, I think longer term will prove themselves to be much more aligned with how the flow of life unfolds, right? So kind of very long answer, right? But, you know, if I try to summarize it, right? So spirituality, that investigation of what life is, what we are, eventually leads us to see their interconnectedness of things and their fluidity, their openness of all the systems, right? And for me, Ethereum is very much aligned with what we as humanity as the universe have been kind

of finding over this millennial of existence. Hey guys, I hope you're enjoying the show. In the second half of the show, I actually revisit the conversation of consciousness and mindfulness, meditation, and acceptance in a different context to finish off the conversation with Dimitri. And I related to his experiences with communism and kind of talk about the differences between some sort of universal coherence, which is what communism is trying to produce and some sort of universal platform about what Ethereum is trying to produce and how that relates to the individual, as well as a few other questions, like how often Demetri checks the ETH price and his favorite workout regimen. So I hope you're enjoying the conversation.

Before we get to the second half of the show, we need to talk about the fantastic sponsors that make this show possible. When you shop for plane tickets, you probably use kayak, Expedia, or Google to compare ticket prices. So why would you limit yourself to just one exchange when you trade crypto? When you make your trades, you want to make sure that you're getting the best possible price on your trade and that you aren't paying high gas costs that you could have otherwise avoided. That's why you should be using Macha. Macha routes your orders across all the various defy-exchanges on Ethereum, Polygon, finance smart chain, and gives you the best possible prices without taking any commission. Macha has smart order routing that splits your order across

multiple liquidity sources if Masha sees that it gets you better pricing. Trading on Mata is super easy because it pools the liquidity for me into a single easy-to-use platform and that has even saved me multiple times from accidentally picking the wrong decks to trade on and accidentally getting a bad price. Masha also allows for you to make limit orders on chain so you can set and forget your defy trades and they will go through automatically while you're away. New to Masha is an integrated fiat on ramp so you can purchase crypto directly with your, you can purchase crypto directly with your credit or debit card and have that fiat be instantly traded for any token that has liquidity. When you're making a trade, head over to macha.xyz slash bankless and connect your

wallet to start getting the best prices and most liquidity when you trade your crypto assets. Living a bankless life requires taking control of your own private keys. Not your keys, not your crypto. That's why so many in the bankless nation already have their ledger hardware wallets, which makes proper private key management a breeze. But the ledger ecosystem is more than just a secure hardware wallet. Ledger is the combination of the ledger hardware wallet and the Ledger Live app. And if you're used to seeing all of your crypto services and favorite DApps all in one place, ledger is where you want to be. Not only does Ledger let you buy crypto assets straight from the app,

but it also hooks into decentralized exchange aggregators like Paraswap, which makes sure that you are getting the best prices on your trades without your assets ever leaving your control. Defi never stops growing, and the Ledger Live app grows alongside with it. So click the link in the show notes to see all the Defy apps that Leisure Live has, and stay tuned as more and more apps come online. And if you don't have a Ledger hardware wallet, What are you even waiting for?

Go to ledger.com, grab your ledger, download Ledger Live, and get all of your D-Apps all in one place. Are you familiar with the political compass? I'm not. So you have, it's like four quadrants. Oh, yeah, yeah, I mean the chart, yes. Yeah, left, right, authoritarian, libertarian. I want to run this idea by you and see if it resonates.

To me, Bitcoin has a specific point somewhere, on the political compass and like where it actually is on the political compass is not the point I'm trying to make. The point I'm trying to make is that it actually has one specific point. You can like point to it as like Bitcoin has the political leanings of this and it's right here on the political compass.

To me, Ethereum is the landscape of the political compass and it can be built to reflect anything that humans value and we can as humanity we can push it towards a side of the political compass that we design desire and it can also optimize for different parts on the political compass. And so when you tell me like Ethereum is supposed to be this like more abstract level

updating protocol that reflects the people that compose it, I see a landscape that humans can come and tinker with and experiment with. And like you said, we've been experimenting with authoritarianism for the past few hundred years. It's both worked and not worked. We are now like for the past hundred years, we've been experimenting with like democracy or maybe a little bit longer than that. And that has its drawbacks. And now we have this like Ethereum thing, which is like this technocratic, like political fabric thing that allows different people to do different things on it. And if that thing works, if that experiment works, then it exists as an application on Ethereum.

How does that like illustration land with you? Yeah, I like that, right? you know, and also in that model that you describe, it's also borderless, right, which is fascinating because for the first time in their life, people, you know, the democracy, again, one of their key limitation of that is like, you end up with this polarity. It's like, okay, this guy is good, and then, you know, this half of people are pissed off and no, our guy has won. Now, you know, this half of people has pissed off. Imagine that if it could have been different that, you know, let's say that this guy has elected, then everybody who has opposed to.

them, well, they can fork their own country, right? And they can run forward with their own experiment and whatever, right? That's not possible in an existing model of what countries are, right? But Ethereum creates this kind of environment when we can experiment with much more fluid models, right? And back to kind of what you have described as, you know, about the political compass model, right? So yes, Ethereum, if you will, it developed, you know, every time we humans, we like models, we develop models, right? And we build the model, we say,

because stuff is here, right? And it's fine, it's a lot of fun, it's interesting. But the thing is, like, every model will eventually break down because it will not be able to embed everything, right? You work on all of this physics, and then quantum mechanics, you develop quantum mechanics, and, like, oh, man, you know, things are totally different than, you know, the way we were thinking about them.

And in their similar fashion, like, we had this political compass model, but then Ethereum's model is more inclusive. Okay, let's take all of this. And actually, you can be, and many, all of these points at the same time, right? So it's a very different model. And it's actually quite similar to, well, again, the model of a human development, the human mind, you know, you have, we constantly try to develop models. And we have our models, but then the world doesn't feed our models. And then we struggle like, no, things should be different.

You know, we know how it is. well, but the universe doesn't care. It's like, you know, fuck you, you know, this is how the way things are. And then eventually we develop models that kind of more inclusive, right? So for me, again, Ethereum is very much aligned with that overall movement in the universe that's, okay, we develop more and more inclusive models of the world. They're more all-encampusing. That's fascinating.

As someone who has experienced, you know, communist Russia, and then you moved to, I believe, Canada, which is very, very different. Yeah. How do you think this, the Ethereum will unfold upon the world using this like perspective, right? This perspective of new organizational, new organization systems like in the sky. How is, how is the people of the world going to behave differently if it, if they all, if we all become organized by Ethereum more than our nation state?

Yeah. I really, there are many dimensions to this. Like one of the dimensions, which I really love is an aspect of. of any human anywhere in the world can get involved in the world economy, right? And, you know, nobody can censor their access to information. Nobody can censor the ability to contribute to participating in the economy, right? And, you know, again, it's not ideal, and many states will try to do that, but eventually they will fail. You know, that's what do we see.

So that's kind of one aspect of this. I had another thought which can slip my mind about this. But yeah, I guess that's kind of one of their key considerations for me. Absolutely. When did you move to Canada from Russia to Canada, right? When did that happen? Yeah, 21 years ago. 21.

Okay. Oh, so, and you moved with Vitalik, and Vitalik once have been really, really young. Yeah, he was six. Okay. So he did most of his growing up in Canada. pretty much yeah do you do you see any i mean it probably came through through you if at all but do you see any sort of like the fact that you know vitalc was born in communist russia for six years of his life and then and then moved to canada do you see any of the fact that he was born in

communist russia like part of his person today i don't think so because again like uh by the time he left he never even attended any kind of uh you know, kindergarten, or any kind of public institutions. So his environment was really family,

you know, his mom, myself, their parents of his mom, they made a huge impact on him. So it was really just family environment

that kind of shaped him there. And then when he moved here and he started going to kindergarten and then to school and all of that. So he was never really exposed to what Russia or Soviet Union. is, yeah.

Okay. What, what, uh, except for indirectly, you know, obviously, you know, through people around here.

Right. Right. Um, one thing that's been, uh, fascinating for me to, uh, to watch is,

and I, I don't really know Vitalik all that well. Like I've, you know, interviewed him a number of times, but it's, it's a very different dynamic than just hanging out with a person. But,

but one thing I've noticed is that like, his social, like, tactness has gotten like really, really, Like, people used to think Vitalek was kind of like this socially awkward kid, but he's actually, I think, can make some of the most witty, like, jokes and has some of just like the best, like, social skills I've seen in the crypto space. Have you followed? How do you, how have you seen like Vitala kind of like develop this, this whole, like, social side of him?

It was really interesting to watch that, right? because also there are many different, it's a non-linear process, right? And he really expanded that when he went to high school. And then in the last, whatever it is, now six, seven years of his life, that is a theorem that also has been changing, right? Because again, we human beings,

we constantly learn as we interact with the environment. And also, like my perspective for him is obviously, different because also I know that, I mean, he has an amazing sense of humor and we will love at the same kind of stupid jokes. We're really related with him on the stupid jokes, if you will. But he will obviously in the environment of family and friends, he's much more open and relaxed because also partially due to his sensitivity, right, to people's energies and emotions and stuff like that and his own that when he's in the public environment and, you know, his mind gets so much. much input and can be very stressful for him.

And when you're stressed and kind of your mind takes over and you become kind of more constricted or whatever, right? But, you know, again, we constantly learn, right? And, you know, as our systems get used to being in those environments more and more, they kind of stop going into this kind of fight of flight mode. And eventually then kind of more of our natural energies, they come out more and more. And I think this is kind of what you've seen, right? So I'm saying that kind of what you are seeing, like I've seen this, you know, that's the Vitalik I know.

But and I'm happy that people get to know more and more of all of those awesome sides of thing. So when Vitalik was traveling the world in like 2013, 2014, trying to get support for this Ethereum thing, as a parent, like, what did you think that it was crazy at the time? Or like, what were your thoughts about, like, your son, like, traveling around the world. Like, because the number of times I've heard of stories of people talking about how, like, oh, yeah, Vitalik pitched me this Ethereum thing. I wish I had invested, but I didn't. And he, like, slept on the floor of the Bitcoin Embassy. Like, these stories keep on cropping up.

So as a parent, before we all knew what Ethereum was that it was going to be this massively successful thing. What was it like to watch your son, like, fly around the world and trying to garner support for this, like, you know, unprecedented project? Yeah, it's, you know, when he came home and he said that, you know what, guys, I'm thinking of dropping out of the university. It was actually interesting that, you know, all three of us, you know, me, his mom and his stepmom, you know, he lived with me and his stepmom with you or my second wife. We were all excited for him because we felt that, okay, you know what, Vitalik will keep learning and, you know, his future. will be bright no matter what, but also I'm a big belier in that, you know, academic environment is awesome for academic knowledge, but, you know, life is so much more than the knowledge, right? And I was excited for him to actually be exposed to so much more stuff, right?

And then he traveled, and he was writing this long emails to us who's updates, and it was really fascinating to kind of watch his journey unfold and, you know, him doing all these different things and then staying in this anarchist commune and colorful in Spain and whatnot. And I was really excited for him to get exporter to that, right? Because again, we humans, we grow in a certain environment and we, you know, that becomes our baseline. And we think, okay, you know what? Like, we expect everybody to be more or less the same, right? And Cand is pretty well off. And it's a pretty open, you know, peaceful, polite society and whatnot, right? But the, uh, the world is different. There was a lot of pority. There was a lot of other stuff. So I was really excited for

him to kind of get more exposure to all of these different aspects of the world. And he did, right? You know, when he was writing his email updates, like, oh, you know what? And here we sometimes get one meal a day. Oh, yeah. And, you know, the only fruit that accessible to me is lemons. Oh, yeah. And, you know, I have to sleep on this mattress on the floor. It's like, oh, that's really, cool, right? So you know that actually life is not just, you know, sleeping in this comfortable bed in a comfortable place, in a comfortable country. There are many other ways that people exist and let's be, like, knowing that and also knowing that you yourself can exist in many different environments is really important, right? So yeah, that was exciting to see that. And I mean,

I also have to say that at the time, like, I wish I would have died, I could have died for more into what he was involved, but I was busy building my own businesses and things like that, right? So, kind of was watching on the site what was happening, and I still remember, you know, how he showed to me his first version of whatever version of the white paper. I believe it was October 2013, and it was really cool to kind of read through this, like, oh, this feels like something really big. Right. So did you, did you, when Vitalek was doing, this tour to get like, you know, Ethereum support. How when you were paying attention to it, how much was it like you following your kid around the world and just seeing those updates

versus you understanding that this Ethereum thing is about to be massive? Did you even at all know how big Ethereum was going to be or had any sort of inclination as to like what the magnitude of, no clue? I had no clue. I mean, it felt to me like a pretty exciting initiative project, if you will. And I was also trying to kind of, in part, if you will, my thinking, oh, hey, you guys, you can organize in this way and how do you communicate, how do you do this and that. And Vitalik was not really receptive to that. I'm like, you know what? I totally understand that as a young adult, he has to go his own way, right? Like, you know, and for me, I ended up also kind of learning a lot from watching this whole initiative unfold because, again,

as an entrepreneur, right? And I was, for most of my life and career, was more exposed to more hierarchical structures, right? And only in the last, whatever, five years of my life and business career, I really got exposed to and we actually transformed our business into a non-hierarchical structure, right? So for me to kind of watch how things are done in this very fluid, very much an open source community, it was fascinating, right?

I didn't have that strong reaction. I think it was Fred Wilson, who was berating Vitalik, that, no, you should be kind of moving fast and hiring this, right? But that's not, it's like, you know, it's how you try to evaluate fish if you tell them, hey, guys, you suck because you cannot climb a tree. Okay, but you, you know, and a monkey can. Well, can a monkey swim in the ocean, right? So for me to kind of watch that and learn from that and getting to appreciate their

very different, you know, actually that their approach, the structure of the community is have to correspond to the structure, the concept, the thinking behind the initiative that you're doing, right? So because of what they were doing, the way they were doing that actually was, if you will, a much better match for this than some kind of like hierarchical, structural, you know, rigid structure kind of, rigid structure kind of trying to move this forward as fast as possible and whatnot. I remember just seeing you walk by at East Denver, I think, 2020, but it might have been 2019.

And if you were walking, who I can only presume was Vitalik's mom, I'm assuming. And I just had this moment. It's like, oh, that's like, that's Vitalx parents at this Heath Denver conference, which is this massive, like, 6,000 person conference that is all completely here because of this Ethereum thing. And like, I completely uprooted my life because of Ethereum. And I know Anthony Sizzano uprooted his life because of Ethereum. Do you ever like, what is that like to like witness and think about when you're at these conferences and like everyone is here because of this like, you know, this white paper that your kid like went on a journey around the world with to help

promote and then just garnered enough support to turn this into a massive ecosystem. Like, that must be a crazy perspective to have. Yeah, it's really fascinating to kind of watch that. It's like this huge organism, you know, you, you observing like how it was kind of, you have the privilege of seeing and having this close access. So like, oh, it's like this just a single cell. And, you know, now it's a little bit more. And now it's this little embryo. And now it's kind of growing. And now it's like becoming this, you know, huge and enormous, very powerful organism that is evolving and starting to affect, you know, so much of the society. it's just, and yeah, it's Denver, I love that. I think that's like, for me, it's probably my most favorite event in this space. And, you know, the organizers are doing such an awesome job. I've been there a few times and differently coming back. So, yeah, for me, just kind of watching that, this is like with a huge fascination, if you will,

and gratitude and appreciation for, oh, wow, this is, this whole thing is unfolding, right? you know um for me it's like part of the nature part of the universe so on the really fun and enormous aspect of this again that i had a privilege to be kind of able to watch closely are you ever uh fearful for vitalic safety i'm not fearful uh stuff happens right and uh i don't mean to sound call us but me being fearful for his safety will not help his safety at all, right? And like, it can be difficult. And I still recall, I think it was four years ago when I was coming back from,

I was on this retreat in Europe and I was coming back. And just on the day later that I was coming back and I just flew from Europe. And this piece of fake news was published that Vitalik was, you know, dead in a car accident. And then like, okay, that was pretty intense kind of to observe that. And, you know, I was not too scared because something about this article didn't quite kind of feel right to me. And then eventually after I was able to reach kind of metallic in Asia and actually before that, when I was actually able to do some Google searches and find some stuff about this.

But it was still scary, right? But again, this is life, right? And the end of the day, fears, we human beings will experience fear. And the only answer to that is like, of course, we will try to do what is possible. And I know the Vitalik is a smart guy. And when we talk, he shares some of the ways that kind of he's trying to stay safe. And I kind of try to mention to him some of the tips and ideas. And, you know, when the conference was in Mexico, kind of, we're trying to be mindful of that.

But then, end of the day, you take the precautions, you take the actions. the fear might still be there. So all you can do is just to faith in fear and keep moving forward. And for me is looking at Ethereum now, right? I can, you know, Vitalik has always been very focused on not being, not kind of like if you're having less and less dependence on him as a single kind of human being as a Lynchpin. And I think that has changed a lot, you know, since the beam of Ethereum and it'll keep changing, right? There are all this amazing people doing all of this really cool things from

communication to development to foundation and this and you guys, you know, all of this, right? So really this mechanism is much less dependent on him. So while I hope and wish for with Alex's long health and whatnot, also for me, it's very gratifying to see that the Ethereum community is much and much less dependent on that particular human being. Totally. Question for you. Oh, I guess you're on a podcast.

So these are all questions for you. But how often do you check the ETH price? Every day, a bunch of times. Yeah. I mean, depends, right? Like when it goes down,

they're like, oh my God, it's painful. Right. But not so much for like what it is. It's like, Right. Because also you can see that when the price goes down, then a lot of people that came into, it affects their mood and whatnot.

On the other hand, also, as you have watched it in the last whatever long time, is that when their price is frothing it goes up, then there's a lot of kind of noise and this space and all kinds of people get attracted to you. And when it goes down, there are still lots of passionate people building stuff, right? So I know that by itself, it doesn't mean anything. This is just kind of one of the fun little things you can look at. Still, as a human being, when it goes up, it's like, yeah, you know, for me, it's more like, it's not about the price itself, but for me, if you will, it's an indicator. Is the world is finally understanding the enormity of what is happening? Are they finally appreciating this, right?

And when the price goes up, like, yeah, the world is finally appreciating what is being done, what has been built. When it goes down, it's like, yeah, hey, guys, you know, can you know, can you not really get what has happened, you know, so kind of that kind of vibe. How's weightlifting going? Very poorly since the COVID meeting that, you know, all the gyms have been closed in Toronto for like, I thought you had a gym outside outside of wherever you live. I don't. No, I mean, I have a friend, you know, who has a gym and sometimes I was able to attend his place and they have some kettlebells, but actually my number one exercise for the last year and a half has been walking.

So that's Vitalik's favorite exercise too. Yeah. Yeah. No, at some point a couple of weeks into COVID, I just realized that I had nothing left other than to just go walk. And so much so much of my day was like working on bank lists for the first like two thirds of the day. And then I would just like immediately just like start walking and not really know where

I was going. And that was my exercise during COVID too. What kind of lifts do you like to do? You like to do compound lifts, right? I'm a big believer in free weights, you know, just because, again, I've been training, you know, I grew up, my natural makeup is the same as Vitalik's, kind of being tall and very thin. And as I was this nerdy little kid who was bulletin, and I'm like, oh, I want to get bigger. So kind of I found this outlet for myself. So I've been exercising since I was. 17. And over this time, I've learned that free weights are kind of the best versus all the

fancy machines and kind of heavy free weights, all the basic lifts like squats, dead lifts, you know. What's your max squat? I have a record somewhere. I don't frankly recall that. Like maybe 350 pounds, I'm thinking. Oh, 350? Oh, that's pretty good, dude. That's way more than I've ever gotten to. I'm pretty sure for what it's right, for what it's where the Danny Ryan's record, I think, is right around 300. So you're beating Danny Ryan. So who in the, in the Ethereum world do you like, quote unquote, hang out with?

Like, do you have, like, group chats that you're in? Because, like, everyone who's deep in Ethereum, they got telegram groups there in, they're got Discord channels they're in. Are you part of that world? No, I'm not. Like, in general, I find. I try to avoid group chats because there are so much noise. And I kind of prefer one-on-one conversations. They can be pretty quick.

They can go very deeply. But for me, that's kind of preference when you can really connect with one person. And sometimes it can be you connect with them once or twice a year. But it's a real human deep connection, not like some superficial, noisy thing. It's like, you know, even in my last business that I sold, we use Slack as a communication. tool. And I was always like, you know what, guys, I don't want to be in that because a lot of this is just short-term noise. And kind of my mind tends to work more longer term, kind of slower, strategic thinking, if you will. So the world of 2020 has been a very like chaotic,

tumultuous place. What are you paying attention to in like the macro world that's like outside of crypto and Ethereum and Bitcoin? Like do you, are you someone that consumes the news and pays attention to what's going on in the macro world? I try not to like, you know, and actually about 20 years ago, I stopped watching the news, right? And I never kind of, I don't have a TV or cable, stuff like that. I have a TV for watching movies, but I never watched like actual TV programming, right? And that's been very peaceful for me. And I also know that, well, I mean, Twitter is kind of my current preferred social media hangout place.

And I know that whatever is important, then that will be mentioned. And, you know, I'll kind of know what's happening. Just because of my historical roots, you know, part of me, I'm still watching the events unfolding in Russia and around Russia, like in Belarus, Russia. And it's some crazy stuff there, right? but generally speaking my main interest interests if you will in life and beyond the basics of being human

you know end of the day there's nothing more important than that but you know the crypto space decentralized tech space it resonates with me a lot and then if you will this whole spirituality space but I would not even call that spirituality for me specifically personally like non-duality is kind of like

this is what resonates with me the most So kind of thinking about that stuff, thinking about crypto stuff, and then just, you know, living the human life, you know, supporting my kids, my friends, you know, being involved in some business initiatives and stuff like that. I do for a bit of like mentoring and coaching and sometimes a business matter. Sometimes it's really like helping people figure out that question is like, what is God, what is love, what is happiness. So when you're just hanging out in your own time on your own terms, where does your mind wander off to? Where does it go? It's really, I would say, kind of this whole question of what am I? What is consciousness?

You know, that's there. And it's a question that it's impossible to figure out, if you will, analytically. But that's kind of one of their topics that really, if you will, the most complicated. a topic for any human to dive into and the topic where you can never kind of dream to find their precise eventual answer. But that gives me, that's a lot of fun for me to explore on myself and sometimes, you know, also with some close friends. As you've gone down the path of trying to answer the unanswerable question of what am I,

how has that changed how you act in the world? it really, if you will, as we go down that road and we realize that that the infinite nature of a human being was all of the different parts, you know, because typically a human being lives with that story about themselves. I am this and I have these reactions. Maybe I am shy. Maybe I am this, maybe that, right? And there are lots of judgments on that, you know, like, this is the way I am and this.

way it should be all kinds of stuff. But when has there, this whole thinking judgment gets replaced by the process of, you know, being curious and sensitive to what it is, then you realize, oh, yeah, me is a human which has this side and that side and this and, you know, like I have my curiosity and I have this and I have this like desire to know. And then I have this desire to be perceived as knowledgeable. And the fun thing is like, you know, those aspects of, you know, those aspects of ourselves that we don't quite like. I mean, we try to resist and we kind of, we either don't see them or we like, I have to fix this.

This is the wrong part of me. The more we resist those parts of ourselves, the more kind of they are, you know, we're being stuck in them. But when we eventually, if you will surrender to them, like, oh, yeah, so here's me, here's kind of like stuff that is going through me and, you know, whether I like it or not, they actually kind of dissolve. And if you will, more natural energies of a human. being come into play. And, you know, they're the same for all human beings, you know, love,

compassion, and joy and having fun and playing and trying to create and trying to support other human beings. You know, they all foundational. It's just like, you know, when our mind is stops interfering, trying to also like, oh, I don't like to be this way. Well, you are this way. Maybe kind of your sexual human being, maybe you're a human being who kind of wants to feel important, whatever it is, right? Whatever you try to deny will kind of keep being this, you know, compulsive side of you. But when you stop denying that, then it just kind of parts of life that flow through you. There's a thought in the world of like mindfulness and meditation. Maybe it's one of the more like sci-fi crazy thoughts. But like if everyone starts doing this, you can all start to like

kind of break down the borders between humans and like minds can kind of. And like minds can kind mesh a little bit because if you can maximally understand who you are, you can actually like start to dissociate from yourself. It's like, oh, I am a human and I'm standing next to another human. And like if you can just have like maximum levels of just empathy and, uh, separation from who you are as an individual, you can start to like kind of like, oh, where am I trying to go with this? Um, there, there's this concept of like a universal consciousness, right? Like a universal consciousness, right? like a universal being like some people some people call this god. It's kind of my, if you will,

understanding of what we are. Right. And this evolution of human mind and this investigation of what we are. Again, human mind is basically a collection of models. And one of the most important models that we have is model of ourselves. And kind of we're constantly trying to build better models, right? And then realize, oh, here's me, but then I'm affected by this. and you know, this becomes part of my model.

And actually at some point, there are borders that your mind has created about, here's me and here's not me, that border actually becomes very diffuse. And kind of when that model of yourselves becomes very ennashed with their model of what the rest of this, that's kind of, that's a natural progression, if you will, of human consciousness. So that's exactly kind of, again, like,

with that model of self and the universe, then it makes much more sense like things that kind of when you're supporting somebody like that's all part of this whole interconnected global whole it's not like you're doing this because you want to be good but it's like

okay we are this and we own all of this together kind of thing how does that isn't that kind of very similar to what communism is trying to achieve? Not as far as I understand it right

and the communism is really one aspect of communism is trying to deny individuality and capitalism and whatnot. Capitalism is bad. Individualism is bad. But you see in my mind, any kind of initiative, any kind of attempt of trying to move forward

by denying something like, this is bad, we will do something good. It doesn't work. And actually, Ethereum was not built from the energy. You know, there's some bad stuff. We're going to build something that's going to fix stuff. It's more like, oh, wow, let's, this sounds like an interesting idea.

It's very complicated. Probably will not even work. But if we can make it work, look at this exciting possibilities, right? So it's a very different energy when you're trying to oppose something. Like, you know, down with capitalism, down with this and that. Like from that energy, like, actually that perpetuates conflict, right? But, you know, from the energy of like moving forward, like, oh, let's have fun. Let's try to create.

let's try to create more joy for ourselves and others, right? There's much, it's much, much more powerful. And communism is not that. Communism is really built very much on denial and violence. You know, those are bad and also simplistic answers, you know. Sure. And I completely take your point. And at some point, like the, and at a very early point, this metaphor breaks down.

But I think you can take my point in the sense that, well, communism is trying to break down the barriers between the people that compose the system. right like we are all the same we are all in this together we are one unified party trying to go for one unified goal and so so to me like and to your point absolutely the way that communism manifests in the real world it has to do that by like denying and violence and coercion and totalitarianism but the goals are kind of the same and so like you know spirituality and and mindfulness and meditation it's all trying to break down the borders between humans but I think it's also fascinating that like kind of communism is trying to also do that inside of its own domain.

Yeah, and I see a point. And you know, the way to think about this as like as we develop more sensitivity and we have this deeper model of what we are, but this structure within ourselves, you know, the ego that kind of still kind of is constantly trying to like come up with like, no, this is me. I'm separate. I'm in control. I know. So it constantly kind of, kind of, observes, you know, takes over all of our learning about this stuff. And that's why a lot of people who go into spirituality, they end up like with this new huge spiritual ego. Like, no, this is the right way. It's like you should not be eating meat. You should be meditating, whatever, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, I have this, I have this wonderful state and this is why I'm so much better than you are,

right? And the same was communism. Like, maybe the original concept was good. I like, it's hard for me the communions that I studied, I did not feel that in there, but maybe because it was kind perverted. Because also even if you look into Christianity, right, the Christian religion is, I see this as really mostly violent bullshit versus their original insights of the founder, kind of they're an amazing, you know, insight into what humanity is, right? So, like, again, the ego immediately comes into play. and this concept of gets perverted immediately, right?

So that's kind of what I'm seeing. Do you see Ethereum as like a possible vehicle to march towards universal consciousness? Is that a crazy question? I don't really see that connection. It's an awesome technological tool, you know, and also it's a foundational platform for humans to poor like-minded to connect and do all of this stuff. And again, universal consciousness, it's not something that you do or you build or whatever. Again, like as soon as you think that this is some kind of result you achieve,

that's already, again, like your ego has taken over because the ego wants to know, it wants to do, it wants to move forward. But in fact, the more you recognize that this is kind of what life is, what is the actual reality, then from this perspective, then you can keep moving forward and build and having fun. So the reason why I ask is because there's an inherent, like, dynamic on Ethereum where, like, you are 100% enabled to become your own individual, right? Like, you have your own Ethereum address.

You can have your own ENS name. You can have your own NFT avatar. You are your own individual. But if you define your, but if individual, individuality becomes defined by, like, your address on Ethereum or your just, like, footprint on Ethereum, well, now, if that, if Ethereum becomes maximally successful and defines the whole, if the fabric of Ethereum just blankets the whole globe, well, now all humans are defining who they are on top of the same universal fabric. And so it's individual, individuality, which is expressed on the same in the same protocol, in the same social layer, right? And so to me that interconnects all of us.

Yes. Right. Yeah. And so that, and so like maybe asking like, oh, can Ethereum get, make us universally conscious? Conscious is an absolutely insane question. But to me, it seems to be like we were actually taking a step there towards universal cooperation, which maybe is a necessary step to turn into whatever crazy, like, thing that we can achieve when all of humanity gets on the same page for the first time ever.

And one other way you can think about this as actually the energy of Ethereum is this kind of open, all-inclusive, evolving network very much resonates with people whose own perception of the world is already like, you know, not like it's me versus the universe, but it's like, it's me and I'm part of this universe. So those kind of people, they get attracted to Ethereum and, you know, that's kind of just alignment of that kind of realizations happening in specific individuals versus like kind of bigger scale system supporting that, you know, realization unfolding at a faster base, if you will. One thing I think I find fascinating, and I brought this up earlier in the show, is

like Vitalik, who, you know, co-creator of Ethereum, did a very large, you know, role in actually bootstrapping this thing, made a bunch of friends that are like-minded as people do. They find like-minded friends. They surround themselves with people that think and value similar things. And I think of the people that I know Vitalik to hang out with, like I said, Carl Floresh and the people working on optimism and other, you know, all the cryptographers, they all kind of have Vitalik's like similar vibe, right? And so there's this in the deep Ethereum community, the people that like write the code and do the research and development and, you know, work at the EF, they all kind of

have these same values, similar values, because they're all a bunch of friends. And to me, I kind of see Ethereum as this technological layer for this group of people that have very clear values to export those values to the rest of the world. I think Ethereum is actually a way for like, um, for these deep Ethereum community members who, uh, you know, largely have surrounded Vitalik and the other core members of Ethereum. And they are, uh, are instantiating values when they write like the optimistic rollups. They are choosing specific design choices, which have specific values that are associated with them. And now that these design choices are being adopted by the broader Ethereum community, these values are being exported to

everyone that touches Ethereum. And so I kind of think like this, the relationship that you have as Vitalik's father, you know, one of two parents, and then that, well, that's just the nature. And now that's, that's the nurture, but then there's also the nature size. So Vitalik's his own person defined by the environment. But still, regardless, like, you have had this influence in actually determining the code that we all touch on the internet. And that is a, a, a, a, a, uh, layer of values that we are all now embedded upon. And so I kind of think the long-term legacy of Ethereum is to all get all humans on the same value system.

And that value system is Ethereum. It's interesting, right, because also one of their values of this system that Ethereum is, is being inclusive, being open to people who have somewhat different values and then also having a dialogue, right? And then it means that in our community, there are people, we welcome people who have some values who some people might be scared of. Like, for example, sexual energy is a very strong energy. Very few people can have good connection with that, right? And then somebody like, I mean, who's an awesome guy, right? And some people like, get scared. Oh, you know, what is he doing? Like, you know, whatever, right? Or let's say

the recent hoopla about sushi not, you know, being prioritized. lower than uniswap in optimism. Okay. So now we apparently have some disagreement about values. But the value of the community, the overarching value is that it's in the open, try to reconcile them and dialogue and move forward, right? So that's really interesting, right? So the value, if you will, in authoritarian systems, then the system kind of tries to become

more black and white. And I can see that in Russia, for example, you know, the government and Putin is good or it's bad and it's becoming very black and white. And, you know, for me, I really see that as extremely black. And then in Ethereum, it's like, yeah, you know, we have people with all kinds of values and desires and tendencies, but then still our foundational thing is like, you know, how can we still understand and accept them, right? And for me, it's a very important aspect of also what being a human is, being a human and all compassion toward our, ourselves, all the sides that we might not like in ourselves, like, oh, I should not be

this impulsive, or it should be, you know, more kind of whatever it is, right? But, well, I am what I am, right? Kind of as a community, as we can, we don't have to deny all these different people with different opinions and somewhat different values, but as long as, like, there's a hierarchy, if you will, right? And again, they're at the very low level of this hierarchy, is this openness, inclusiveness, right? And for me, that's really kind of the most important aspect of Ethereum community. Yeah. And I think as you get closer and closer to the core of the Ethereum community, down to like the layer zero, if you will, you'll find that one of the core values that people have is to value other people's values. And that sort of like iterativeness is kind of how there's

some sort of like relationship between Ethereum and the infinity that keeps on coming up in all these different brandings. Demetri, yes. Thank you for coming. on layer zero and being the first guest. I've had a fantastic time just talking about all these different subjects with you. Awesome. Yeah. Thanks for having me. It was really cool conversation. Yeah, and thank you for, you know, the privilege of being the first guest. And it's really awesome. And I'm looking forward to kind of meeting up in person, you know, the next Ethereum conference. Well, like you said, Heath Denver is also my favorite Ethereum conference. And so if it's not before then, then at Heath Denver, I will see you there.

Sounds good. Bye, Dimitri.