Bankless - Friday 5/29 Livestream w/ David & Anthony Sassano

Episode Date: May 29, 2021

Every week(ish), David and Anthony do a Friday Weekly Livestream to chat about the week in Ethereum, the markets, and whats coming in the short term future.  Enjoy this unscripted conversation! ------ 🚀 SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/  🎖 CLAIM YOUR BADGE: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/-guide-2-using-the-bankless-badge  ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 💰 GEMINI | FIAT & CRYPTO EXCHANGE https://bankless.cc/go-gemini  🔀 BALANCER | EXCHANGE & POOL ASSETS https://bankless.cc/balancer  👻 AAVE | LEND & BORROW ASSETS https://bankless.cc/aave  🦄 UNISWAP | DECENTRALIZED FUNDING http://bankless.cc/uniswap  ----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/bankless-disclosures 

Hey, Bankless Nation. We are doing something new on the Bankless podcast today. For those that don't know, me and Anthony Sizzano every Friday, not every Friday, but a decent number of Fridays, we get together and just do an unscripted, impromptu live stream. And so you can always catch that Friday evenings at 6 p.m. Pacific time. And me and me and Anthony, we just talk about a bunch of Ethereum stuff. A lot of the Bankless podcasts and live streams that you guys watch are very, we have an agenda. We have a, we have a, topics that we want to get through. This is the time to have just completely unscripted conversations about what's been going on in the week of Ethereum with David and Anthony of the Daily Gway. If you guys aren't listening to the Daily Gway, I highly recommend the YouTube channel and also the newsletter. And Anthony just puts out roughly like 30 minute long videos, just updating everyone about what's going on in the Ethereum ecosystem every single day. It's a fantastic resource. And that's kind of why I wanted to get closer with Anthony as a content producer with the Bankless podcast and Bankless YouTube. And so that's why we do these weekly

live streams. One time we brought on DC to chit chat and in the moving forward into the future, maybe we will bring on other guests for just, you know, some Friday evening fun, Friday evening fun times. And I think we're going to do more of that in the Bankless ecosystem. Me and my buddy, Michael Wong, chief culturalist over at Bankless, we are chewing on something fun for some Friday evening entertainment. But until that comes around, just enjoy these weekly live streams with me and Anthony Cisano. And now we're putting them on the bankless podcast as well for your weekend snacking. So I hope you enjoy this conversation. It was pretty fun. The theme this week was Heath Layer 2 Summer and as well as the conversations around, is this a dead cat bounce or are we just

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This is more than just trading. Gemini is your bridge to crypto for the bull market. Open a free account in less than three minutes at jemini. dot com slash go bankless get $15 in bitcoin after you trade your first $100 that's jemini dot com slash go bankless what's up anthony hey david how you going oh you know hanging out i'm in a different place right now as we were literally just talking about where i was not at my own home at a second ago and then we decided to live but now i'm talking about it again but yeah i'm in an air bambi in san francisco on my way home. Yeah, we're talking about how like you're able to like travel over the country and I'm

just locked down in Melbourne again in my house. Yeah, yeah. I mean, as if it's any different when you work in the world of crypto, but yeah, yeah, world's in a weird space right now. So I guess I won't see you at Bitcoin, Miami in a week, a week. Yeah. No, no. I'll tell you all about it, though. Yeah, I'm sure I'll see all about it on Twitter because there's tons of people going. And I mean, I was just saying to, I saw that you can't even talk about anything but Bitcoin at the conference. So I'm like, I think there's going to be a lot of people just hanging around outside the conference just at different places, which, you know, it's pretty cool. That's what usually happens with conferences anyway. Like you go and then, you know, you do go to the main one, but you also kind of like hang out around it, which actually that's the main thing I love about conferences.

Just being able to hang with friends, like with online friends in real life. But yeah, I can't do that. I won't be able to do that for a while. There's two people that go to conferences and people that go. to conferences and then people that go to hang out right and uh not the last time the last time we hang hung out was at eath Denver uh and east Denver is very like I would say participatory uh conference but the time before that was east New York and Heath New York was very much separated between like it was meant for builders it was meant for a hackathon people and participants and then there was all

the other people who couldn't code who just like were going there because we knew other people other Ethereum people were going there and so that yeah that was east New York and that's where met Eric for the first time. Oh, wait, you weren't there. Yeah, you weren't there. You weren't there. Oh, yeah. Met Eric, Eric for the first time.

Met Hudson for the first time. And literally just like this like division between like people who are furiously typing on their computers like hacking like Preston Van Loon and all the other people who are just like fucking leaning back in their chairs. It's just like, oh, it's good to see you guys. This is great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I always love that though because like I remember I at eight Denver that there was like three

levels or something of devs. of developers like doing the hackathon and then it was just everyone else crowding around and it's funny because you have like different groups of people one of the groups that you can pretty easily spot are like the vc's and the investors because they'll they'll they're huddled together and they'll they'll just wait because they want to you know they want to obviously find their next investment and things like that so and you can kind of like see them moving around like just looking at projects and then yeah as you said they've got laid back people just kicking it hanging out and then the hackers but man you're making me nostalgic now i miss it that's for sure haven't

made to a conference since 8th, I haven't been able to go. I'm fucking missing them, man. Like, for all the listeners out there, if you're ever on the edge of like, do I go to this a conference thing or not, like, go. Absolutely go. Like, it's where fucking Ethereum culture is. Like, if you want to experience what crypto culture is, you got to go for the conferences. Speaking of culture and conferences, you just woke up.

So you probably haven't seen the Mike Dutas tweet. Okay, so Mike Dutas tweeted out a poll. And he goes, what are you going to do in Miami next week, since we're all going to be there option one bitcoin conference option two ethereum slash defy five slash nfti option four option all the above ethereum slash defy slash nfts coming in at number one at 40.5 percent bitcoin conference is the loser at 8.4 percent and then partying and all of the above are roughly tied i need to go i was i was trying to find like the actual poll because i voted on it a while ago and took that screenshot but still like the and and like i was planning on going to the conference until i found

out like so many Ethereum people are just going to be hanging out. And like if you're if the Bitcoin literally the Bitcoin rules are you can't talk about Ethereum stuff as a Bitcoin only conference. Then I guess I'll just go outside then. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, man. I yeah, as I said, like I've been seeing tons of people say they're going and I, you know, I kind of expected that. There's a lot of Ethereum people going and it's just more fun to talk about like I really don't like I don't want to bash Bitcoin again here. I just like it's more it's just more fun to talk about. Ethereum and defy stuff, I guess in general. And I mean, that's why we talk about it all the time.

I literally talk about it every day. You guys on bankless talk about it all the time. So, you know, it's yeah, exactly. It never gets, it never gets old. And it's something always new and fresh. And you know, you just mentioned that I just got up. I did. And I literally have not caught up on what's happened.

I looked at Twitter and like, I just saw all the updates and like, oh, my God, a lot happened while I was sleeping again. Do you know what happened with, apparently there was some Twitter spaces where people were talking about how much money they made from pre-sales. Did you see that? I saw some rumor about that, but now that's, that's still something I'm not, not privy to. Yeah, I don't know. I think there was something about, like, some, some big influences on Twitter promoting, you know, pre-sells they got access to and then, you know, you know, selling them off or whatever.

But regardless of that, I think, well, we haven't done this in two weeks. So the price, man, the price. What happened? Oh, my God. What did it all go wrong? Oh, my God. Well, two weeks ago, what were we doing two weeks ago? It was it, it was like at the all time.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I have two topics on the agenda for so far today. It's the question of... You have an agenda. Oh, God, you betrayed me. Two topics.

I know, it's because I know what you want to talk about, and you already brought up one of them. So give me the benefit of the doubt on the other one. The second one is layer two summer. The other one, like, come on. Come on. Like, I know what we're talking about. Yeah, yeah. The first one is Dead Cat Bounce question mark.

Since you brought it up, I guess we have to talk about that cat bounce question mark. Uh-huh. man, I don't think so. Like, God, you know, it's funny because we like the people I talk to, you know, they're on both spectrums, right? There's like the perm of walls and everything who find it really hard to be bearish in general and I fall into that bucket. Like, this is why I can't trade because I'm just bullish all the time.

And then you have like the people who are bearish, but they're only bearish because they want a better entry from what I've noticed. Like they want to just buy lower and, you know, and obviously people who are bullish just want to sell higher. So this is, this is what's always funny about markets. You know, you can never really get an unbiased view from people because everyone's got their own agenda. Everyone's got their own reason for wanting the market to go up and down. So you can never get like someone saying, oh, well, I actually think it's going to do this based on this, this, this and this.

Because this makes the most sense. It's like, well, this makes the most sense to me for my bags. Because of what you're looking for. Like something you're looking for this actually is what really the through line is. Exactly. So, but yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

Like I think everyone kind of got caught off guard by this. It was unexpected by maybe not everyone. There were some people who were calling for like a 3KE, but that was based on like technicals and things like that. But then, you know, once we fell through that, we just fell even further. And it's been spoken about a lot lately,

but I really do think it's the leverage in the system. There's just so much of it. And people just like get, you have such easy access to it that you have these deaths buyers because there's never enough spot liquidity to, to match this, right, when there's liquidations and stuff like that.

So, um, but yeah, man, like just generally, I mean, it's impossible for me to be bearish on anything right now. Even though the prices keep going down, it doesn't matter. Like, when you think about it, like, I was really bullish.

I mean, we were both really bullish during 2019, like the depths of a bear market. And lots of stuff was happening, but the price wasn't moving. And when it comes to markets, they can kind of have a mind of their own sometimes where both positive and negative news won't do anything to the markets. It'll just be like the market's doing the market. Yeah. So, yeah, so I guess that's where I'm sitting right now. but I'm sure you're in like a similar boat, y'all.

Yeah, I mean, we could talk about how there was, there was generally a just like kind of shitty two weeks in the narrative world, mainly on the Bitcoin side, right? Like Elon Mushes being erratic was bad. Like Doge coins, like doggie tokens making the front page news, that was bad. Like there are shit, there's shit that happened. Like the actual real news, which is the China actually banning Bitcoin, actually doing it.

That was bad, right? So we had like a series of like, one, two, three, four punches in a row right after, right after just rocketing up. And so we had like no price consolidation. We had, we didn't establish the highs. And then we got smacked by like really bad news. And then Bitcoin dumped and pulled the rest of the market down with it. And like, I think in the grand scheme of things, you're totally right. There's like when, when ether goes from like $4,300 down to $1,700 in like seven days and then it rebounds a thousand dollars off of the floor and then take for example we can talk about this hypothetical scenario that it keeps on going

over the long term that's just a smooth line like it went up really fast and went down really fast but then but then it was a smooth through and through and what you're saying about like there's just not enough liquidity in the market it's just an anomaly of the fact that like the spikes are so high because of how little liquidity there is and so you round out the spikes because it's noise it's like it's like it's like an outlier right and just the the fact that we dipped down to $1,700 for a brief couple hours in time was literally what you're saying. You just got to clear out the fucking leverage bros. And so liquidity just like disappears and so the price can do anything.

The price can go to $50 and then it'll just go back to $2,500 a second to later. And that's just an anomaly. That's not actually something that you should really, like it's more of an anomaly than it is real. The reason why it's real is because a lot of people did get liquidated and like a 60% drawdown off the top will spook anyone no matter what. like watch your 60% of your net worth get deleted. It doesn't matter that you just only made it in the last like 45 days. Like you still got deleted. And so that's my analysis.

Yeah, yeah, I think so. And that's why I think like even though obviously long term bullish, I still think it's going to take a little bit to kind of like keep going up from. I think I'm going to have to consolidate. Pump the brakes. Yeah, exactly. We're going to be here for it. We were going to be too fast anyways.

Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. See, this is the thing. Anthony is like, that's an appropriate level of speed, actually. I actually think that ETH wasn't going up fast enough, if I'm being honest. If we're, you know, traditionally when you see a drawdown like this on, you know, large market cap assets like Bitcoin or Eth, you know, if we're looking at past cycles, you would, you would expect to see maybe a 40% drawdown at most. We've seen that already, right?

We saw that from, I think, 2100 to 1300 was about a 40% drop or something like that. Whereas, you know, getting a 60% drop on Eth is is incredibly scary, especially when ETH has such a high market. cap these days and it's such a wide and varied holder base. And I know we kind of like bounced off that really quickly. But the thing is like think about it, 4,400 to 1,700 in a week is crazy. Like we fell way faster than we went up. But only like two or three times as fast. Like we went up pretty fast, bro.

Yeah, yeah, but I don't know. Like maybe. It was like two and a half times as fast. It was like three weeks versus one week. But you know, but the thing is I actually think that Eith. So it's hard. to say like what's fairly value but i actually think that eight didn't go up fast enough but i think that what ended up happening was that there was a lot of other crap happening right there was as you mentioned

the dog tokens there was just a lot of froth in the market generally bitcoin was actually weak for quite a while you can see on the chart that bitcoin was weak for like three months man it was like ranging and it was actually going down it wasn't exactly going back up and ranging down not ranging up yeah exactly and then you know you mentioned all the bad news that came out like the esg narrative the the the Elon Musk stuff, all that sort of stuff. That just, you know, I think that just like basically or like tipped over an already wonky kind of horse, so to speak, right? It was already ready to kind of like, you know, dump.

And also, Bitcoin dominance had gotten slaughtered. We went over this two weeks ago how Bitcoin dominance gotten, had gotten absolutely slaughtered, which means that there was people, people kept saying, oh, when's old season? I'm like, guys, it was old season. Yes, you're, you're waiting for defy season, which is different to old season. Old season is literally all the scams and like absolute crap pumping. And we had that. We had that in a very big way.

It's just that people think that old season means that their bags are going to pump. No, it doesn't mean that at all. It means that just really shitty bags are going to pump. But maybe your bags aren't part of that shitty bag. So, yeah, but yeah, I think that definitely you're right that this is going to spook a lot of people. It's definitely going to spook a lot of the institution, maybe not all of them, but a lot of them, the institutional investors who are like, well, you know, this is really volatile. But maybe they won't allocate as much money now. They'll allocate some.

They'll be like, okay, well, this, this asset class is still extremely risky and extremely volatile. Let's allocate less than we were going to because of it for now. Right. But, but yeah, man, and I actually think the narratives I'm going away for Bitcoin. We've spoken about this before. And just like the energy use narrative is just such a bad one, I think in general for Bitcoin. And it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong, it's a narrative that's very powerful. And people are just going to, going to look at that and be like, wow, Bitcoin uses this much energy. Like, this is horrible. Whereas with Ethereum, soon will be. be able to just say, well, the theorem doesn't use mining.

Let's see it. Like, we don't have to say anything else. It doesn't use mining. Right. It uses literally nothing. That's the whole point. Well, actually uses ether, which is not nothing. But from Nick Carter was making this point about how he was talking, ironically, he was talking

about like the Chia or Chia network, which uses like proof of hard disks. And so you just have like hard disks farm farming where you have all these hard ducks, and they're just writing random data to these hard disks and then deleting them. over and over and over again. And then the hard was burn out. Same model is the ASIC. What the hell is he saying? He was talking about how this network got so large so fast

that it actually started to tap into like commodity resources. And then he was talking about how like this is why you don't like bake financial products into like general like commodities like corn or something because like society needs corn. Like we don't want the prices of corn to artificially skyrocket for no fucking reason for this art like for this weird thing. And then he's like, and this is why Chia makes no sense. But to me, I was so confused because then he turned it into a positive about Bitcoin. And I'm like, dude, what's the one commodity that all humans need?

It's energy. Like, what? I know we can create more energy, but we can also create more corn. Like, I didn't, I lost that part of it. Like, that's the one part about the one thing, a few things that Nick Carter have said. I was just like, I don't get this. Yeah, I don't get the hypocrisy. And I think when, I was actually thinking about this.

And I was going to a scenario in my head and I was thinking, okay, if I asked the Bitcoiner, hey, aren't you being hypocritical by saying that she is a waste, but Bitcoin isn't, you know, wasting kind of electricity here and kind of like hardware, their reply would be, yeah, but Bitcoin's worth it. Like 100%. I already know what their reply would be, right? And, you know, that's actually a fine stance to take. I actually think that's, that makes sense.

But at the same time, you really shouldn't be calling out other kind of like waste because it's subjective. It's exactly because, you know, as a Bitcoin, you think that Chea is useless and you think it's worthless. But like there are people who like Chea and find it valuable and mine it and want to make money off it. So yeah, it's extremely subjective. And this is why the debate is never going away because it's just a subjective. There's no objective answer here. There's no good or bad.

It's what people think is good or bad. And what they feel is a benefit or not for the planet. So yeah, I just, I don't know, man. That that narrative has extreme headwinds. And, you know, I know you mentioned Nick Carter. He does a lot to fight it off and puts out a lot of good work around it. But that's not going to matter. Like, most people aren't going to read Nick Carter's blog posts.

Like, it's as simple as that. Right. He's just like hammering out blog posts after blog post. But like, he's doing his best, man. But like, he's not winning. Like he's losing. And like the whole Elon Musk and Michael Saylor like mining council thing, like we're going to establish the North American mining council to like make Bitcoin green.

That's a, that's capitulation. That's Bitcoiners admitting defeat and that they have to tackle this problem head on. And then they did it in this extremely ungracefully way where we're going to like establish the council of American Bitcoin miners. And so all of you Bitcoin miners, which isn't opt in, but still like, let's all get the miners all in one spot and have a council. Like, come on, guys. Yeah. What is this? Yeah.

It definitely looks like fear, a little bit of fear where they're like, well, we know this narrative is really bad. And if we don't get on top of it, it's really bad for Bitcoin. And they won't ever say it, but they'll think to themselves, well, you know, if he doesn't have this problem soon enough, like even though some of them will say, Ethereum's never going to proof of stake, what's like it is? And once it does, like, what do you got? Like after that it's, it's like, it's pretty bad. But I'm just so happy that Ethereum is moving to proof of stake.

And it's been a plan for quite a while now. I'm happy it's not just a reactionary thing. I'm happy that it was like very kind of like setting stone back in the day and we're working towards. The ethos selected it from day one. and it was the right ethos to go by. Like, this is, like, every single day, I'm just, like, impressed by, like, oh, like, all these people that are, like, humanity's now debating consensus mechanisms in 2021. And, like, Vitalik was like, hey, guys, I'm going to, like, I'm going to solve this problem six years in advance that you guys don't even understand that's coming. Yeah, yeah.

Vitalik's foresight has been amazing to see. He's like, I mean, even in the white paper, defy use cases were mentioned, like financial use cases. It wasn't DFI back then, but financial use. Like, he just had so much foresight and just generally, I think, like, the Ethereum community is very lucky to have him. But, yeah, generally just that, that, that, when it comes to a narrative war, people who pay attention to what happens on Twitter, like, just even, okay, let's, let's pivot a little bit for a sec to talk about narrative wars.

Look at what happened with one five, five nine, right? Look, over the last couple days, people are now concerned trolling EIP-159 and saying that it was, people always sold it as a way to improve gas fees. It was never, ever sold as that, not from when it first got created, not from any of us in this ecosystem, like not from many of the people with a reach. I made a point to never,

ever sell it as something that would reduce gas fees. I often noted that it may work to, sorry, that it should work to smooth out transaction fees because that is part of this design, but I had never alluded to it, you know, fixing the gas phase. And I always said that that was layer two, right?

That was not the EIP 1559. But now we have people coming along and saying, well, that's what it was sold as. I'm like, are you serious? Like, are you just learning about one 5559 now? Like, who are you listening to? It's just the narrative war is such a hard one to win. Because even if you think you've won it, someone will come along and throw a spanner in it.

And then everyone will be confused. This is what happened when, I'll just say it. Like Taylor Monaghan put out this thread that started this whole thing. She confused everyone because now everyone is trying to kind of, you know, latch on to a narrative and latch on to an explanation for it. it and now this kind of like revision of history happening too. People are like, oh, maybe it was about this all along or maybe it wasn't about this. And it's like, it's just so insane because we had a very cohesive narrative the whole time, but then someone can come along and just like screw it all up,

I think. And it also doesn't even matter what the motivations are. It's a piece of code. We can analyze the code as the code itself, right? And like to also for what it's worth, if we're talking about intent. It was intended to just make the U.S. better. And now it's touted as this fee burn mechanism. And if I remember, I didn't look into the thread too much because I was like, this is dumb. I'm not going to waste my time on this. And so the reason why I think Taylor Monaghan is going after EIP-1559 is because she's a contrarian and like everyone likes EIP 1559. And so like people, the reason why people like it is because it burns ETH and it pumps their bags. But that's not, why it was actually ever implemented it was it the first proposal was framed in

the context of just making gas an easier thing to use uh uh i i i was not the first person to like talk about the the relationship between burning eth and eth scarcity but i uh i think i had like the first article that was really about eip 1559 that was directly about that um and it was really just out of the social layer that did eip turn in a ip 155 59 turn into this like bullish fundamental case of Ethereum's monetary policy after the fact after Eric Connor was like this is going to make using gas easier now there's a there's a conspiracy that I have that Vitalik because Vitalik knew about EIP 1559 or at least like the original construction of it the original mechanism and then he might have like pass it to Eric and be like yo you submit this

EIP because Vitalik smart he's like well this is going to make ether be scarce and so I think Fatalik was like, Eric, like, you go do this. That's my concern. Vitalik had been talking about this sort of stuff since 2016. And he was never talking about like fee burns or whatever. He was talking about improving the gas mechanism for Ethereum. Yes, yeah. So there's papers back in 2016, 2017, 2018 and 1-559 was put forward in 2019.

But on your point about people saying, oh, well, it's all about the fee burn now. Okay. Well, okay, let's put it this way. Let's see what the fee burn actually does besides just your vanilla. Oh, it pumps people's bad. The fee burn takes the money that's going to miners right now in terms of fee revenue and distribute it to set to all fee holders and makes ETH a kind of revenue generating, or like a value capture token.

Because right now, ETH does not capture the value of its own network because it is not, I mean, it can be used as collateral, it's staking and all that sort of stuff, but it is not capturing that fee revenue. So by you saying that, oh, you don't like one, five, five, nine because it burns fees and directs value to ETH, you're taking the other side and saying, you're happy with that eat going to miners who dump it, right? That's the side you're taking, really. Increasing the security of Ethereum when you dump it, by the way.

Exactly. Decreasing the security of Ethereum and also causing chain instability because when you have more fee revenue than, I guess, like, block rewards, it's been shown in a research paper that this can lead to an unstable blockchain or an unstable blockchain. So when I see that, I'm just like, guys, like, okay, yes, it's good for the value of And yes, a lot of the industry is, is shilling it like that. But at the end of the day, like, who are these people following?

Like, are you just following traders who are shilling this so that they can trade Ethan like, you know, pump it higher based on this narrative. Like, I know I've been talking about the feed burn a lot for sure. But, but I, the thing is is that the fee burn is just like a really easy narrative for people to latch onto. Like, and when I look at people arguing against this, I'm like, you guys should never work in marketing because you didn't understand how marketing works. Marketing works by boiling down complex topics into an easy to, don't

just narrative. That's the, that's really the crux of marketing. So when you want to market 1559, you want to get the word out about it, what do you start with? Well, you start with the most attractive feature of it, like, which is an ETH Fiburn. Then you can talk about the other things. That's what I've done. I've gotten people to kind of like, you know, listen to me because of that. And then I kind of like, eat pill them later on the better things about one five, five, nine. So to me, it's just like a marketing narrative thing that I think a lot of people in this industry do not understand. You know, marketing is something that I think people, look down upon sometimes and they're like, oh, you're just trying to shill your bards.

It's like everyone's trying to shill something. Like, let's just be honest here. Like, everyone is always trying to shill something? Like, is Taylor, you know, shilling just her bags with my crypto? Of course she is. Like, but that's fine. It's her product, right? Like, it's fine.

So, yeah, I mean, maybe without ransom too much there. I just think that the forest for the trees gets missed a lot in this industry. Totally. Totally. And on the note of just like everyone shilling their bags, like all content producers, all YouTubers, all podcasters, everyone writing an article. They're all shilling their bags. The reason why people write articles is because they write about something that they believe in. That's why Bitcoiners have so many Bitcoin podcasts. That's why Ethereum people, we could use some

more podcasters actually these days. It's mainly you, me and a few other people, and that's about it. But like, we're all shilling our backs. We're all shilling our backs. But the thing is, someone is right. Like, someone shilling their bags is right. There's all these different people shilling their bags and someone's right. And so at some point, That's why you have to be like a thesis driven shiller because if you're if you're the shiller who's shilling their bags and you're wrong Then you're like an asshole in hindsight not an asshole I wouldn't really call them an asshole but like oh you're the one that got it wrong like you you're just shilling your fake bags right and if you the are the shiller that got it right? You're the person that democratized alpha right like you're the one that did like good job and so and so like at that point like that's why you kind of it's a responsibility to shill bags if you do believe in them because that's that's your right as a person and i guess like in saying that all shilling is not

created equal either right you have a lot of things that are shield that are that are scams or dodgy projects or people have access to like um you know i was just saying before about like pre-sales right where there's no kind of vesting or lock up on their tokens they show it to their followers and then they just like dump on them right um that that that that happens a lot in this industry and i'm not condoning that at all i'm not saying that's a that's a good thing but you know when i shill I'm more sure like, you know, the fundamental drivers of like Eith and Ethereum and what's happening there. And obviously like, you know, I mean, me, me and you, there's the same thing. We're both like long term Ethereum people. We're not just like shilling some bags. You've gotten a pre-sale.

I mean, you and I, we bought Ead didn't get the pre-sail. Didn't get the pre-sail. We bought Eth way later than my first price was like $330. Exactly. So in 2017, not in the 2018-19 bear market. it was not $80 at the bottom of the bear market it was like $330 and then it pumped to $1,400. I'm like, yes. And then it fell to $80. I'm like, fuck. Yeah, exactly. So I think, yeah, a lot of people miss that.

There's, you know, some of the loudest people in this ecosystem and the ones you would call Shillers bought in a lot later. So they're not kind of like shill like bags they bought in at like pre-sale and things like that. But, but yeah, I mean, and Shilling's like that's got a negative connotation that comes with it. At the end of the day, it's just talking about things you're excited about, really. That's how I view it. And yeah, okay, yes, you have a monetary incentive to do so.

But that's like this whole industry. If you're talking about something, most of the time you have an incentive to do so, whether that's being monetary or social. And it can be both. You can have a social incentive to do things. Like, obviously I have a social incentive to talk about Ethereum because like, that's my whole thing. Like in the same with you guys at bankless.

That's your whole thing. But you make money from it too because it's part of like, like, there's no way I'm going to chill Ethereum if I don't have EF. Like, yes, I love Ethereum, but like I'm going to invest in I'm not going to see on the sidelines and be like, oh, yeah, Heath can go up without me. It's fine. I think it's going to go up into the moon, but I'm not going to buy it.

Like, what? Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So that's just like being a rational investor, being a rational person. So, yeah, when I think about that, that's kind of like the train of thought I go down. And I'm fine with people thinking it's gross and disgusting sometimes where people are shilling things. But guys, like, I don't say that with Eith.

I say that with like the dog coins or like the outright scams, like, or the really shitty projects. I just do not see that with something like ETH where you can say, oh, it's disgusting shillers just trying to pump their bags. Guys, if I wanted, like if we wanted to shill bags and pump bags, we wouldn't be pumping like EAT, it would be pumping something else. But we don't want to do that, right? We're not here for that. Yeah. It's, it's easier. Well, shilling Eath is like long-term games, right? And the reason why it's a long-term game is because we think it's a long-term asset, right? So, like, come back to, you know, this bankless YouTube in like 50 years, Anthony and David still shilling Heath. It's still going to be doing it. It's probably.

Hey guys, we're about to get into the topic of conversation of layer two summer or what's about to happen when arbitram and optimism open the floodgates and allow all the developers to come and start building on these L2s. And what it's going to be like once all those applications are built for L2s, the users and what it's like for the users to come and live in those L2s. I think it's going to be a really exciting time. Anthony agrees with me. So that is the second half of this conversation. but before we get there, we have to take a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible. Guys, we've entered a bull market. Now is the time to start building your crypto empire, and you should do it on Gemini.

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call a money robot. No human counterparties or centralized intermediaries, just autonomous code on Ethereum. Input the token you want to sell and receive the token you want to buy. Something brand new in the Uniswop ecosystem is the Uniswap grants program is now accepting applications for grants. We have been saying this for a while and we'll say it again. Dow's have money and they are in need of labor. If you think that you have something to contribute to the Uniswap Dow apply for a grant to Uniswap. Just look at the size of the Uniswap treasury. It's almost $3 billion. This mountain of capital is looking for labor.

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People are complaining and saying, oh, it's only for developers. Guys, like every single piece of marketing copy said it was only for developers. what do you think like literally i have not seen anyone say that it was for users so where do these people get this idea from that it was for users and i think it's going to do with the fact that when people hype things up again it goes back to what i was saying about narratives and marketing you always kind of focus on the the really the best thing right the most awesome thing coming and all people focused on was oh arbitram is going to like be a layer two that comes out before optimism right it's going to be like where all these developers can can deploy their stuff to and users

will be able to enjoy the cheap and fast transactions. That is true, but that is not true today. And what's true today is that they need to release a developer mainnet so that they can actually get the apps on there. This is another thing that I don't get when people kind of say this. Like, okay, guys, if they release it to the public today, what would you go and do? There's nothing there. There's nothing there. I just, I don't get it. You expect like, oh, Ethereum, but on Arbitra. Like, no, you got to go build it. exactly so I just I don't get that and and I don't get what I have people were thinking that but anyway that's what released today right arbitram and then there's other layer twos that have been rolling that

slowly there's other apps and stuff there's layer two's life today you can go use them and things like that um but I think layer two summer is something that is not just going to happen coherently it's not just going to be one thing that uh you know happens at one point in time like defy summer did I think it's going to take a little while still for for layer two's to roll out to a point where you can have like, you know, critical massive users on there doing all sorts of, you know, really cool things. But I think it can happen eventually.

It's just that, like, I mean, I thought I thought I was under promising a lot of things, even though like I'm bullish on them. But it seems like people still think it were over promising things. And it just, it really kind of like irks me because, you know, I think on Twitter, it's just different. On Twitter people,

because Twitter doesn't lend itself to nuance at the end of the day. Twitter lends itself to what can you fit in 280 characters and how much engagement can you farm and that's fine that's exactly what what what i do it's what you just what like all of us do like we want to get attention to our long form stuff and our you know our youtube channels our newsletters whatever but the only way we can do that is by creating these bite-sized narratives that give people to pay attention to us and to follow us and by doing that we remove a lot of the nuance from things so i i get that but if you're just taking your your knowledge from twitter only right from one person's tweet then you're you're just not doing enough research into into what's

happening because you can't get everything from one tweet. Even a tweet three is not going to give you everything. So that's my general opinion on layer two summary is that we shouldn't over promise this and we shouldn't say that this is going to be a coherent thing. It's going to eventually happen where there are critical massive users will move to layer twos and we'll have like some some fun stuff happening on there. But I don't think it's going to happen like people think it is like where it's just like all of a sudden, oh my God, everything's pumping layer two summer.

We, we, we. No, I don't think it's going to happen like that. So here's my model for how this goes. And maybe adding summer to it is more just like marketing and excitement, which, I mean, we're always excited. But layer two season era, whatever. So here's how I've been explaining this to my friends. Imagine like Disneyland, but you've probably never been to Disneyland, have you? Disneyland in Tokyo, so I guess that counts.

Okay. I think an amusement park. The Disneyland that I'm familiar with in Anaheim in Los Angeles, it's like very much you go in through the gates and then you go up to this main Walt Disney statue. And then there's like different parks, like park this way, a different park that way, a different park that way. And so you have like this main Disneyland area and all these different parks like spawning off of it, right? And so this is what Ethereum is. Like main park, super congested, lines everywhere because there's only one spot to go. The lines are super long.

And now Ethereum as an ecosystem, they just launched like the Matic Park not too long ago, the Polygon Park. And now they're about to launch the Arbitrum Park. and then they're about to launch the Optimism Park, which are even way more, like way more service area. And instead, and when they launch these things, there's this massive, like, first, it's kind of like a gold rush, but people have to wait for the developers of, like, these applications to come and build the future rides that people are going to ride on

so that the people can come find the gold because the gold's in the ride. Okay, so like sushi swap comes, and they're going to, in uniswap, they're going to come deploy on, on Arbitrum, and this is completely my speculation, but like in order to get liquidity onto Arbitrum, perhaps both Uniswap and Arbitrum, and I'm just using these examples, so like insert your DFI up here. Uniswap does unidistribution rewards to people providing liquidity on Arbitrum. Arbitrum provides rewards for people using Uniswap on Arbitrum, and so you have these dual yield farming coming from both application, which is like the ride, and the actual real

estate, which is Arbitrum. And we've written like repeat that for every single application, borrowing and lending application, like AVE is going to probably take the lead here because it can move so much faster than compound. So AVE is going to be yield farming AVE tokens on Arbitrum, which is also going to be giving Arbitrum tokens. And then also they're going to repeat this on optimism, right? Everyone, we need to give away the tokens of these L2s because we need them to them to be decentralized. How do you give away tokens? We learn this in the first DFI summer. We just give them away to people that use the protocols. And so there's going to be yield farming on arbitram. There's going to be yield farming on optimism. There's already yield farming on Maddick, right? And so it's just going to be

fucking yield farm city in like these three different like parks that are brand new. And the important thing is there's no fucking fees. There's no fees. And so that that is like the bulk case. I'm super fucking excited for this why I'm calling this ultrasound summer and maybe also fall or whatever. Just the ultrasound or not ultrasound layer two summer. winter for those in the southern hemisphere yeah yeah whatever there's not that many of you um no no i i agree with you and i think you know a big part of these like summers is the is the yield farming and the liquidity mining right and the conditions have to be good for this though you need a bullish market you can't have like a bearish market because liquidity mining doesn't really

work in a bearish market right you need it you need a bullish market exactly exactly and we already saw a taste of this on polygon with arvee launching medic with medic token rewards on on on polygon there So you could, and we saw like, I think there's $70 billion in, in, in, in, in, in, in Pover, on Polygon right now because of that. So yeah, as you said, like if, if all these tokens are being given away, now through liquidity mining programs, it's a really easy way and good way to bootstrap liquidity. Um, you know, and, and I think that this is what's going to happen for a lot of these apps. And some will move faster than others and things like that. And you can't have liquidity mining on like every single L2. So maybe this is a race here where, you know, who can bring out their L2 a scalability solution, you know, first, so to speak. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. I think from that perspective, it makes sense. But, you know, it depends on what the broader market does as well. I think, as I said, like, we're not long-term bearish, but like short-term, the market is just like, no one knows what's going to happen in the short term right now in the markets. Like, absolutely no one.

I think people are betting on it's going to take a couple months for it to work itself out because we got ourselves into a really bad rut here. And every single bounce is going to be sold down because people are going to be like, well, I'm going to sell the relief bounce. Be like, oh, I should have sold here. And now they're like, oh, bounces. And they're going to be like, I should sell here. And I think a lot of people are saying, well, unless ETH breaks 3K,

we're going to be stalking like the 2K to 3K purgatory for a little while. So unless that happens, or maybe, you know, the funny thing is maybe this all happens at once because these events have a really funny way of like all coalescing around each other. So if you think about what's happening in the next couple months, say the market starts hitting it back up in July, for example, again. I think barbitrum will be open to users in either kind of like I'm estimating late June or early July here. And what else is happening in July?

Well, optimism is also said that they're going to go live with a main net in July. 1-559 is still happening in July, as far as I know. I saw something about like a slight delay on it on Twitter before. But I think it's still happening in July, right? So if we get like a return of the bull in July, well, then we can possibly have an L2 summer, right? Because the conditions are there for it. I think the reason why we had like a DeFi summer originally is because the conditions were there for it. It was the market was just getting.

started hitting up. We just discovered this really cool new primitive. Fees were low and then spiked high, but people didn't care about the fees because they had made so much money from their ETH holdings. People forget that the people who were part of DFI summer were early ETH investors. So at that point in time, they didn't care about the fees because they had made a lot of money from their Eth going up. So they were like, well, oh, all right, it doesn't matter. Like, I'm getting all this money from this. I don't care about the fees. And then it was just a new thing as well. So as you were saying, this is like going to be a zero to low fee kind of environment where it's going to be a new thing for people,

where they're going to be like, the people who were locked out before are going to be like, wow, I can actually do like all this cool yield farming stuff now. And there's going to be centralized exchange bridges in and things like that for people to kind of come into it. So,

yeah, I think the conditions can be there in maybe June, like maybe late June, kind of like July-ish, but we're going to have to see what the broader market does. If the border market is like super bearish and Bitcoin's like dumping, eats dumping, I don't see us having like an L2 kind of like season like because of that.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. To some degree, maybe you can you can have like some amount of faith in, in markets and say like, well, because optimism and arbitram are releasing and this real estate is going to be so incredibly valuable, like that that can be its own catalyst and be the reason why we are bullish. Not that people's bearishness kill the potential for L2 summer or L2 whatever. It's actually the fact that these things are happening is what makes it bullish. It could go both ways. It could go like for some, at some point in time, catalysts move markets. it's an extremely viable catalyst. And as to what you said, like there's already plans for certain exchanges to just put USDC right on to these L2s. And so I've been talking to some of my friends. One of my friends owns bonds.

So that's stupid. And so I'm telling him, sell all your bonds and just put it into stable coins and yield farm on all these L2s that are coming. Just like you can keep your dollar principles. Like I'm not even going to bother to try and convince you to buy ETH. He did, but he doesn't own ETH. But I was like, well, your bonds are yielding.

like but fuck percentages, excuse my French, on the bond market, go, go farm some actual real assets. Like, this is a future. Go do that. Like, no, same risk, kind of. And so, like, if you, the time to deploy, just bear cash, it's, like, kind of coming up, like, pretty damn soon. And you don't have to buy Eats, you don't have to put it into risky assets. You can keep your principal. But in the spirit of going bankless, you're going to get better yields in the bankless world. Like, and so you might as well go do that. Yeah, yeah, no, totally. I totally think So and this has been my kind of like thesis for a while as to why I don't think we're going to get like a long drawn out bear market anymore. And I think we're going to get like mini cycles is because of that, as you said, like, I mean, where are you going to put your cash, right?

Where are you going to put your USD if not in crypto? Like, are you going to go to a bank account? No, like what are you going to do it within the bank account? Are you going to go buy bonds? No, what are you going to do bonds? Right. It's the most interesting on the planet. Exactly.

Are you going to go into stock market? I'm like, okay, maybe you can go on the stock market. But like, you're still buying. assets. You're not holding onto your cash. Right. Whereas, and this is, this is why I'm saying like, if you keep your cash in stable coins, well, you're looking for a dip to buy. You're not looking to exit crypto.

You want to buy a dip or you want a yield farm. You're keeping the capital within the ecosystem. So from that point of view, I mean, I think it's very hard to be kind of like bearish, like even medium term. Like I think short term is fine because short term can do whatever they, whatever it wants. But long term, medium long term, like bullish just like everywhere. Like, there's just seriously.

I just can't find any reasons to be bearish. And think about how many users still got to come into the ecosystem as well and how many of them are locked out because we don't have, sorry, because we have high fees and what that's going to unlock on L2

is going to be amazing. So yeah, I think people might get blindsided by this. And the memes of like, oh, Ethereum can't scale. We're just going to die. And that goes back to what I was saying about narratives and narrative war.

It's very hard for Ethereum to win the Ethereum can scale narrative war just based on promises and based on us saying, well, you know, this is coming out soon. we just once we get it out there and people can actually use it and people see that oh wow this is actually real that's when um you know i think things start changing i think polygon had a play

played a pretty big part in this as well where you know that they they kind of showed this and kind of like you go on there and yeah i know there was debates about polygon being like not a l2 and all this sort of stuff but you know generally it's a it's an ethereum aligned scaling solution and that showed people that you know when ethereum wants to it can it can scale both on the technical level and the social kind of coherence level too right the one thing don't know about Madik is like if the Madic network blows up like what kind of assurances do you have that you can come back to Ethereum. I think that's that's kind of like the weakness that Madik has is it doesn't have perfect assurances in the same degree that optimism in Arbishop does.

And so like you can't have perfect like security when you are on Maddo. Like there is some risk there. But at the end of the day, if it works, it works. And right now it's working. And so like whatever talk about, we can talk about compromises for whatever. But like if it's offload, scaling fees and reducing fees and like count it as an L2. You know we're gonna like oh the it's not technically an L2 that's technically incorrect but like you know people random users of Ethereum aren't gonna give a shit like they're so like oh it's the thing that things are things I do are cheaper that's that's the L2 I'll go over there like they don't care what it is and so like to some degree that's probably why

people are so bullish onmatic now is it is not only does it it's already first people are already building on it it's got all those like oh any sort of L2 like it's all automatic it's all on Like, I guess that's bullish. I don't really know, like, how architecturally, why that works or, but okay. And so to some degree, sure, whatever. Count it as an L2. Like, so long as it works.

Yeah. And I think when it comes to these sorts of things, it's just the tradeoffs, right? And the Polygon POS network or the automatic network, as you're talking about, they have their own validated set, like 100 plus proof of stake validators. They have slashing. All that logic lives on Ethereum. They checkpoints to Ethereum. But the actual central point of face.

is the multi-sig bridge, which essentially is the bridge from Ethereum Amtumatic, which holds billions of dollars of assets, that is a five of eight multi-sig right now. So if, you know, they wanted to, not saying they would, five people could collude and still all the funds in there, right? And the thing is that multi-sig is not there for any malicious reasons. It's there because they want to be able to upgrade the platform still, and because the platform is still very early, and they want to protect user funds in case of any exploits and stuff like that. This is not dissimilar. to what happens with defy apps when defy apps have admin keys and stuff like that and wbTC sure yeah yeah so

just that's that's the thing just as long as people understand the tradeoffs i think is fine um the definition war like the the narrative war around defining things is already lost even though that i think technically in l2 like is something that's secured by ethereum directly it doesn't rely on its own kind of security um and you know maddick or polygon has been referred to as a as a side chain i i just just think that even that kind of term is useless. I think it's all about, you know, is it like its own network? Is it secured by itself, which, which Polygons POS chain is? Okay, where's the central point of failure here? Well, it's the bridge, right? So the bridges really are generally kind of like the central points here. And, you know, who's, you know, who's responsible for the bridge? Like, what,

what are their social coherence? And I think, you know, obviously, I may I should disclaim that I'm an advisor to Polygon, but I think that, you know, the team is, is not like malicious or anything like that is not trying to harm Ethereum or anything, they're, they're kind of very aligned there. So, and, and, you know, even these other, like, I guess you can call them true L2s, like arbitrament optimism, we're going to have guard rails on them in some way or another. I don't know if they're going to be centralized guard rails or anything like that or what kind of admin keys, but they're definitely going to have ways to, I mean, just think about it. Like, if arbitrament optimism want to upgrade their networks once they're live, like, how are they

going to do that without like a multi-seek where they can actually just like put the upgrades in themselves? well, that have to set up a whole governance process. That's not going to work really early on in their life. It's going to hamper their adoption because they're not going to be able to move fast. So I think early on in these projects, it's fine to have an admin key. It's fine to have a central point of failure as long as you're up front about it. If you're kind of like trying to hide this fact, well, I mean, if you're trying to hide it,

then I consider you malicious. That's a different story. Yeah, because you're hiding information from the market, not allowing them for them to decide for themselves. Yeah. Yeah. And this is why I had such a big problem with BSC is that, CZ is marketing BAC as if it's exactly like Ethereum, right?

That it's just like Ethereum with low fees. I was like, no, man, it's like centralized Ethereum. I'm like, stop with this bullshit marketing. And, you know, I think as long as people are honest about what these systems are and people understand what they are, that's, that's fine by me. I think, you know, if you're lying to people, that's when it gets like kind of, kind of gross. Yeah. Yeah, totally.

What should we talk about next? Well, I mean, Markets L2-559 drama. Chat. I mean, chat, what should we talk about? Let us know. Give us a topic. There's lots to be good talk about, but maybe they've got something they want to hear about. Yeah, yeah.

I've always wanted to do like a, just like, have you ever used the webinar feature of Zoom? I guess it's not all that different than YouTube having a chat function. But Polygon, Loki, Cardano, Killer. Well, you have to be alive to be killed. You know, I always viewed Polygon as. as these, not so much Cardano, but as these kind of like multi, sorry, these interoperability multi-chain protocol, things like Procodot and what was the other one? Cosmos, yeah, yeah. So I always viewed Polygon as that, because they're going to be, they're not just building the POS chain. They're

building like what they call it internet or blockchains, which is going to be like standalone chains, altos, you know, all this sort of stuff, hybrids, whatever you want to call it. So yeah, that's what I view it as. But as you say, yeah, Katano, I mean, what's there to kill? Like, you know, you know what? I haven't heard anything about the compound chain. When is the last time you heard about something about the compound chain? I actually saw Robert Leshner tweeting about it on Twitter, like I think two days ago and saying that Arbitrim should have like a star port on the compound chain. I'm like, okay, well, what is actually happening with this compound chain?

Right. What is it right now? Apparently there's a new assets in compound link in true USD. So they actually added some new assets to base L1 main chain of compounds. So like that's the first thing that's changed about that application. And I guess to some degree, they're kind of stuck being like the ultra secure application versus AVE, which is kind of the move fast, but you not yet break things, fingers crossed app. And so like I guess if compound does start rolling out the features, then it kind of breaks what it's good for, which is like a really locked down vault. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's lots of money market protocols now with more coming. I mean, you have like ones that move really fast, like cream and. and fuse from Rari Capital. And then you have ones that move, you know, a bit faster, but like not as fast like Avan. And then yeah, the ones that don't move very fast like Arvan,

sorry, I'd like compound and maker. Right. But that's yeah, it's all trade offs. Like if you move fast, you introduce collateral into the system that may not be safe because of a variety of reasons. Well, you have to take on the risk and the risk gets taken on by the whole protocol. Even if the markets are separate, if you have like, say you have like the token gets sold off for insurance,

then you bear that risk as a token hole. you bear that risk as a protocol. Whereas if you're just onboarding like really robust collateral that has really robust liquidity and that liquidity has existed for a long time, then you know, you're fine. That's what compound and maker try to do. And that's, I think compound is even more conservative than Maker at this point. Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm interested as to how that's true.

How is that true? Well, I mean, Maker has actually been onboarding assets pretty quickly these days. Like, if you look at like how many assets, Maker has onboarded, the last few months compared to compound. I think Maker actually wins there. Yeah, compound just, I don't know why, but like, yeah, they do move very, very slowly on that front. Yeah, compared to the others. So here's something I've been thinking about lately. So I got into into Ethereum around like July of 2017 after Ether ran from like $10 or $20 all the way up to, I think it was like $425 or something.

and then it crashed back down to 135 and then it rebounded and then it was like just like ranging from $330 to like $270 for like six weeks. It literally felt like forever. And that was like my first impression of crypto was like ether ranging from 330 to 270 for like it was like August until like October. And then that's when it did its massive run all the way up to like $1,400 since it's 2017 all time high. It feels like that right now.

Like, Ether ran from $100 all the way up to $4,300, fell all the way down to $1,700. And now we've been ranging between like 2,400 and 2,800 for one week. And like, what we were just talking about is like, well, we could do this, really, we could just range until like July, right? When EIP 1559 and optimism comes online and Arbidrome allows users. Oh, that's weird. Like kind of crazy fractal, right?

right yeah yes so i've seen this talked about a lot lately um this fractal to to uh 2017 and it's funny because like the magnitude is different here because i i don't think you can say maybe it ran from like a hundred to 43 because if you're saying it ran from 10 dollars to 420 that happened in six months in 2017 um it was 10 dollars in january of 2017 at the beginning of january right whereas a hundred dollars was only true in march of last year so it took us like, you know, 14, 15 months to get to 4,400. So much longer time frame there. So if you really want to do a, do a comparison, I think you should be comparing it maybe to kind of like Bitcoin here, because Ethereum is as big as Bitcoin was back then.

Because it's about market cap and stuff like that. But this is also why I think that when you look at these kind of fractals and look at these charts, it's kind of hard. And I don't think it repeats like the same way every time. It might rhyme where, you know, human emotions don't really change and the way humans trade things and fear and greed is the same. But I don't know if you can look at that and say that's exactly what's going to happen. I do think the general rule is that when you have like a blow off top like this, you're either going to like a really long term bare market where it just keeps trending down or the market is generally bullish and you stay like range bound for a little while and then you move back up generally. I think that's what is

happening right now. But at the same time, I'm not like totally sure because, you know, short term is very hard to kind of predict. I didn't think that either go to 1700. I thought that it would, you know, I was looking at when he was dumping. I'm like, okay, well, maybe we go to under 3,000. That's where I bought some as well. I bought some at 2,900. But then, you know, it kept falling.

I'm like, wow, okay, this is a serious dump now. And then it kept going. I'm like, wow, okay, starting to feel like, you know, COVID black Thursday, like whatever it was in March of 2020. And then it dumped even more. I'm like, what the hell is happening? And then I'm like, okay, well, there must not be much liquidity in the system as I thought there was.

I thought there was more liquidity than what there was. And then we bounced, of course, and we went up to 2900. I'm like, okay, this is a classic dead cat bounce right now. This is like a classic, oh, let's all just buy the bottom. And then we trended back down. I'm like, okay, I wasn't surprised by that. And now we're just ranging. So who knows, man?

Like, it's just, it's so hard to tell. But if you're in it for the long term, you should be unaffected by these. If you didn't invest more money than you can afford to lose, if you're not relying on crypto to live, then you're fine. I mean, I think, yeah, as long as you kind of like set yourself up for that and not panic sell into these sorts of things. You should be fine. Because what actually gets people long term is that they blow themselves up,

whether they'd be on leverage or they end up panic selling and then buying back in at a higher price. Really, that's why people say hold. Because in the long term, holding, like, if we just look at history, holding wins. Holding wins, exactly. Over the long term, holding wins over everything. So unless you're a trader, I'm trying to be a trader, you can be a trader.

You can have like a trading stack. Maybe you want to trade with 10% of your portfolio. But yeah, just generally, like, I think holding wins, and you've got like proof of that from like 10 plus years of crypto markets. And that is not to say this is investment advice, but you just need to look at the industry and look at what's happened to people who helped from early on. I think that's just what happens. Yeah. And on that note, there are some things that you can't learn in crypto. You can only experience, right?

And I feel like that's kind of what I was getting to when I was saying, like, oh, like similar fractals 2017 kind of feels like that. like the numbers are messy like time horizons are different like things are fuzzy but like there is like a gut feeling right uh and you know gut feeling is completely emotional it's just my gut feeling but also like there's like kind of this order of operations things or like bitcoin pumps then ether pumps defy tokens pump and we have this crash like we're what we're yet to see is another because i remember like allocating heavy into tokens and i feel like this is like a first cycler thing to do is this like, oh, I missed out on the pump. Better buy tokens because that's how I get my leverage. And so I bought a bunch of tokens. And then Bitcoin ran from like $7,000 to $20,000.

And I just felt pain every step of the way because tokens are actually going down in price, just getting just slaughtered by Bitcoin. And then we had the biggest fucking altcoin mania of all time. And that's when Ether hit its cap. And so we just went through these cycles, right? And so it feels like, it feels like the second half of the ball market, right? It feels like Ether had his first pump, Bitcoin has its first pump. Defi tokens kind of lagged behind but are, but still have done extremely well. And then we have a bunch of new entrants coming in, which a lot of, a lot of people that I know that I was trying to tell them to get into crypto, we're now finally getting into crypto. And so it kind of feels, it feels like that moment in time where like we have the next

second half of the bull market ahead of us. Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. I actually put a tweet out saying this exact thing, where it feels more like, you know, June, July 2017 than it does Jan 2018 and I do agree with you. I just think it's just funny whenever you kind of look at the prices and the magnitude of the increase and how 8th went you know 42x before it crashed in 2017 whereas if you look at like say say you want to compare it to the start of this year to now um you know, Heath was like what a thousand dollars at the start of this year I think um so it's only a 4.4x and that's because it's market cap is much larger this time around and you know you can look at other coins that did the 42x for example which they did.

like some other coins did a massive run like that. So that's when I see people saying, oh, you know, each is going to go like 40x again because it went 40x in 2017 or whatever it was. It's like, nah, guys, like it's not going to happen. That's the market caps are way different and it takes a lot more money to move Eath these days. That's why you see Bitcoin as being like an asset that doesn't go up too much in value. But again, I mean, it doesn't go up. I mean, it goes up, but it doesn't go up as fast.

And again, it's just a risk thing. Like, you're, it's less risky to be in BTC and E than it is to be in other things. yes, BTC and ETH, I mean, ETH went down 60%, but a lot of the other things went down like 80%. And that might seem like a small gap, but going down 80% is way larger than going down 60% because it's percentage-wise. It's not based on something else. So, and that's just a risk you take. And also on the recovery, ETH and BTC are going to recover probably much faster than all these other things will.

So, yeah, that's kind of like how I play it. It's like you play in the risky stuff. And it's not just risk based on market stuff. It's also risk based on the project. Like we know that BTC and Eith are going to stay around for a while. But a lot of these kind of other projects, who knows if they're going to be around? Who knows if they're going to get traction? Who knows that they're actually going to be successful?

And a lot of them haven't been. And a lot of them have been slaughtered because of that in addition to the market turning down. Yep. Totally. And that's why I feel like the way that we should leave listeners is that always, always, long-term games, always, always, position yourself. Like, it's fun to play on leverage. play on leverage. You if you play on leverage, you have to position yourself in a way where you

can still play the game even if you get punched in the face, right? So like you can take the loss, but if you're out of the game because you lost too big, then you're fucked. You're allowed to, you're allowed to take an L, but you've got to keep yourself in the game because this is a long-term revolution. And so you can't count yourself out of the revolution because honestly, you only get it one time, right? Like maybe you miss a 2017 bear market or bowl market and like that sucks because you only get one 2017 but uh bull market but you have this one so like don't fuck it up don't fuck it out yeah yeah exactly and i guess like even as a broader thing the the kind of revolutions that we're seeing now within crypto is like a once in a lifetime thing or once in a generation thing like

the last one was the internet they seemed to be happening much faster but when the internet was growing like i was a kid man like i couldn't experience this like i couldn't invest in companies i couldn't do anything like this um so so now i'm not and i think a lot of people are in the same boat a lot of people missed out on the internet because they were just too young they hadn't even been born yet i mean think about it like if you several born like in in the sorry people were born in the year 2000 that are now like 22 years old 21 years old whatever um so when yeah it is crazy but when you think about that it's like okay well those people would literally born into the hype into you know of the dot-com bubble they didn't get to experience that at all they were literally a product

of the bubble just people celebrating and having babies exactly so so from that perspective all those people like get to enjoy this. And even like early, like I was born 92. So I mean, you were as well. I'm like around. Yeah,

exactly. Yeah. But like for us, you know, in the year 2000, we were eight years old. I wasn't worried about that. I was worried about my Pokemon games on,

you know, Game Boy. I wasn't worried about the, the dot com bubble. I didn't even know about the dot com, dot com bubble until I was like in my teens. But so from that perspective, yeah,

this is, this is why kind of like, it's a once in a generation thing or normally once in a lifetime thing. So you make the most of it by playing long term games. Right. and not blowing yourself up on leverage trying to capture some short-term wins. Totally, totally. And I will take note that, like, if we do have Defi Summer Round 2 or slash Defi season round two with L2s,

that's a blessing because, like, we already had it once. And like, now we kind of know what to expect. And so that is also something to take advantage of. Anthony, thank you for coming on the Bankless Day. God, wow, the Bankless Daily Gway, Friday weekly, sometimes weekly, live stream. Here's the Daily Gway YouTube channel. I'll put it into chat. Give Anthony and his YouTube channel

will follow there because he does stuff like this every single day. I listen to it on the podcast every single day and it's where I get a lot of my information. And then we come and talk here and just kind of shitposts and have fun. And so thank you for tuning in. And Anthony, I will see you in a week.

Yep. Thanks, everyone. See you later on. Peace.