Bankless - Gimmie the Loot! | Loot Panel w/ Jackson Dame, Will Papper, Anish Agnihotri

Episode Date: September 17, 2021

Join Jackson Dame, Will Papper, and Anish Agnihotri as we explore the emerging ecosystem around LOOT! The value proposition around Loot is deeply compelling, with the simplicity of the initial release, the call to action to the community, and the endless opportunity for cultural composability. Loot presents a unique milestone for crypto culture, and seems to be a turning point for this emergent, digital metaverse. Can fundamentals be subjective? PERMISSIONLESS CONFERENCE https://bankless.cc/Permissionless  PREMIUM DISCOUNT https://bankless.cc/permissionlessdiscount  ------ SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/  ️ SUBSCRIBE TO PODCAST: http://podcast.banklesshq.com/  ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: GEMINI | FIAT & CRYPTO EXCHANGE https://bankless.cc/go-gemini  BALANCER | EXCHANGE & POOL ASSETS https://bankless.cc/balancer  AAVE | LEND & BORROW ASSETS https://bankless.cc/aave  UNISWAP | DECENTRALIZED FUNDING http://bankless.cc/uniswap  ------ SoRare | Collect and Play! https://bankless.cc/SoRare  ------ Topics Covered 0:00 Intro 5:00 Loot Panelists 6:27 The Aha Moment 9:13 On-Chain Composability 11:32 On-Chain Data 14:50 Loot Timeline 19:45 The Derivatives Phase 23:57 Loot as a Concept 27:57 Why Build on Loot? 36:18 Decentralized & Aligned 44:00 Playing Devil's Advocate 53:28 The Panelist's Concerns 58:49 Metaverse and the Future 1:03:01 Closing & Disclaimers ----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/bankless-disclosures 

Hey, Bankless Nation. Wow, it is panel time. Super excited about this panel. It's all about loot. If you've not heard of loot, David, could you give a quick description of what loot is and why we're hosting this panel? Oh, that's so hard because the whole point about loot is that it has no description. The scriptions need to be built around the loot. And that is the fundamental like unlock that this whole loot phenomenon has brought upon the world. Like traditional NFTs, we all know them as JPEGs. We joke about them like, oh yeah, they're JPEGs. Lutes aren't even JPEGs. They are just tokens that have properties inside of them. And the whole idea is that a world can be built around these things rather than have them actually impose

upon the world what they look like. And this is, it's really just a writing plumped. It's a blank slate of such a possibly gargantuan like magnitude that it's attracted a ton of attention and a ton of a ton of frenzied energy. And the thing is like the way the promise of loot is that since we're building around it rather than actually building it up from the top down. It's coming from a bottom up perspective. There is no team. There is no roadmap. There is no project. There's only a nebulous decentralized set of contributors who are committed to building this thing. And so we have brought three of those contributors here on the panel today. We got Jackson Dame, who is co-founder of, or excuse me, the content creator and community manager at the Rainbow Wallet. We also have

Whale Papper, who is co-founder of Syndicate Dow and also the mentor of Adventure Gold and Anish Agnihanyhotri, which is one of the Paradigms' newest research associates. And these guys all have caught the loot bug. And so we want to get their perspectives as to what this whole loot thing actually is. Yeah, I think we definitely need to figure this out. I feel like I owe this one to my wife, David, because I bought loot, right? And like she already thinks NFTs are crazy, right? But like now I'm buying text files on the blockchain. Text files on the blockchain. So I feel like many people that are outside of crypto circles also want to understand what this, what this loot phenomenon is. Why it has such value? I mean, tremendous amount of value being attributed to loot itself and then also all of kind of the derivative products. So we're going to dig into all of this. And I got to say coming into this, I'm kind of halfway split where I like, I see the the unlock of this new primitive. And it's so exciting and so cool. And part of me is like, this is the future. This is,

going to be amazing. And then there's another part of me that's like, well, have we peaked here? Right. It's just like, we're buying text files now and there's no game around this thing. And like all of my things in the future way too much. Pricing in the future. Like how is this thing, how is this thing going to be built? Right. So I'm somewhat conflicted. And I love that conflict because I think that's where the best opportunities lie. So guys, we are going to get into the subject of loot in this expert panel. But before. Before we do, we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible. Bankless is proud to be supported by Uniswap. Uniswap is a new paradigm in asset exchange infrastructure.

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That's AAVE.com. All right, guys, we are back with the Lute panel from Bankless talking all about loot, what this project is, what it means for the future. Did we unlock a new primitive? Or is this just the hype cycle going crazy here? We've got three panelists who can fill us in on all the details. We've got Anish Agnih Nootree. He's a research associate at Paradigm, Will Papper. He's the co-founder of Syndicate Dow and also the mentor of Adventure Gold as well.

and Jackson, Dame, he is a content creator and community manager at Rainbow Wallet. Everyone, how's it going? Do we call you guys looters? Like, what's the official name for the loot community? Doing great. Looters definitely sounds a little weird, but yeah. Okay. Anyway, it's great to have everyone.

You know, I think we got to start with kind of the aha movement, because all of us discovered loot in a different way. all of us discovered it in kind of, you know, some digital way. But for all of us, I think everybody, including myself, it really clicked. Like there was this aha moment of what this primitive could unlock. So I want to start maybe with you, Jackson. So what was your aha moment with Lute and what convinced you to get involved in the project and become a contributor? Yeah, I think my aha moment was actually probably months before it even dropped. Like I've been following Dom's journey and getting into Ethereum and NFTs for many months now.

And I was an early adopter of one of his first projects, Blitmap. And through that, through being involved with Blitmap and the community that he built around that, I already was sort of sold on anything Dom ever did in the future. And because of that, he's also not one of those people that tweets often. So I didn't have, I turned notifications on for his tweets so that I was. would always be aware of what he was doing. And one day, two weeks ago, when he tweeted out the link to this project, to this experiment that he did, I was already so familiar with his work

and how innovative he is that I was ready to jump on board anything he ever did. So I saw the link and within seconds just clicked on it and started minting these bags of loot without really even thinking that much about it. So it's basically from Dom's reputation, you're like, whatever Dom creates, I'm going to ape into this thing and then go figure it out later. Yeah, pretty much. Will, what about you? What was your aha moment?

How did Lute click in your mind and when? Yeah, so I missed the original Lutmin. I was hiking in Oregon without anything on me. I didn't have any of my, any access to my crypto. That was an expensive hike. So I missed the Mink. And then I was, but I knew that people were talking about how cool it was that Lute was fully on chain. And I was like, wow, okay, this is not just another NFT.

this is a composable primitive. And I was like, wouldn't it be cool if people would claim an in-game currency? So in the airport in Bend, Oregon, before I owned any loot, I started coding Adventure Gold. And yeah, that's when it began because I just thought that on-chain composability was a really powerful thing. Got back, was too tired to buy loot that night. Then the next morning, Sunday morning, I just sold my me bit. and swept the floor for loot until I ran out of a, ran out of V. So, yeah, Adventure Gold actually began before we held any loot.

But the OnChain Composability was so cool to me that I knew it would be really powerful. We definitely want to get into the story of Adventure Gold a little bit later, but for folks that aren't familiar with, like, when you say on-chain composability, right? Like, to me, I kind of know what that means. Like, that gives me sure it's like, okay, well, this could be a primitive for so many other things that are built. on top of Ethereum. But like, how would you explain why on-chainness makes loot cool in and of itself, Will, just to somebody who doesn't understand this space?

Yeah. So most NFTs, their data is a URL, and that might be an IPFS hash, or that might be a centralized server. But most NFTs point to outside of the Ethereum ecosystem, which means that other smart contracts can't leverage the data inside of the that NFT because they don't know what that URL contains. There's no way for them to access it. It's just the URL to them that doesn't indicate anything about the underlying content.

The really cool thing about Lute is that Lute stores its properties on-chain, which means that other applications can access what kind of headgear to someone have. Are they wearing a crown? Are they wearing a cap? What kind of weapon do they have? What kind of shoes do they have? What kind of armor do they have? And the really cool part about that all being accessible by other applications,

on top of Ethereum is that like people like Lute Wars, for example, was able to query the weapon that you had and then grant you an actual weapon that you could use in battle. Anish did work on being able to split up loot bags into individual items. And all of this is only possible because loot is stored fully on chain, whereas most NFTs are URLs that point somewhere else in many cases to a centralize server so other blockchain applications can't access it. Before we go on to Anish, I just want to add that there is precedent for on-chain NFTs to have a premium associated with them due to their on-chainness. And we saw this with autoglyphs, right? Autoglyphs have an insane premium versus other typical JPEG NFTs because of their inherent on-chain nature, right? They have no external dependencies. And so, like, I think people who clicked with loop might have clicked with that, like, on-chain nature of the items.

wanted to add that that color. Well, it's super interesting about all of this is like it appears for some odd reason, maybe for some of the reasons we'll was stating that like the simplicity of loot makes it make, like, that's what makes it so valuable. And that's what makes it so interesting, right? So we've gone from something that is like not very complicated at all, gifts and JPEGs, right, to something like even more simple than that. And it's that simplicity that actually make. it a more valuable primitive to build on top of, right? It's a very counterintuitive, I think, to the way people think about value, right? It's like more complicated, more time, more effort goes into it, the more valuable it must be. Well, no, here's loot. It's just text files on the

internet, but it's that simplicity and that adoption, which makes it so valuable. That's kind of the riddle I think we want to unpack here. But Anisha, I want to get your way in on this. So tell us about your aha moment. How did it happen for you? Sure. So in a similar way to Jackson, I followed Dom's work. I'm a big fan of what he's done with blitmaps and sort of every some time, I'm a builder. And so I love taking a look at the smart contracts that people put together. And Dom's are especially unique because he does cool things on chain. And so Lute initially caught my eye because he was doing, you know, rendering these images, rendering these text files directly on chain. And I was like, hey, this is fantastic. And then immediately right after that, my take,

was, okay, well, everything is on chain, all of its data is accessible. That means I can quickly scrape all of it and put together a rarity chart that people can now use immediately right after. And so the first thing that I did, the first sort of derivative that I built on top of loot, was the sort of list of rarity based on the probability of the items inside your bags. And I shifted out to the world. And I thought, you know, this is going to be a cool way for people to take a look at how rare the bags that they're minting are. I think my aha moment, though, came a day after that when I realized nobody was following the rarity rankings, which to me came like a surprise. In particular, the rarest bags after the first day were things like Divine

Row bags and Catana bags, which are seemingly common items. They're not things that are rare. They're things that are super accessible, just general items in like a tenth of the bags, which to me was an initial surprise. But I think to me that was the aha moment where I was like, okay, the community building on top of loot and the things that people do with the bags is a lot. a lot more important necessarily than what's inside the bags themselves. So I think that was my aha moment. So just to reemphasize that point, did you just say that the whole divine robes, which the divine robs are the one item in the loot ecosystem that have the most premium associated

with them? You're saying that that didn't come out as a result of the specific scarcity of divine robes. It was just more a meme that people left on to. And it's like, oh, we like the divine robes. Yay, divine robes. And all of a sudden there's like two tiers in the discourse. like the divine robes have like a floor price that's like five times higher than the actual floor price and there's no fundamental reason behind that other than just the community kind of just as a

shelling point picked divine robes as like the thing that is the most scarce exactly and that's fascinating to watch because it goes entirely against any fundamentals based approach anyone could have done right it's something entirely based on the loop community so guys um let's for the Listeners who are still trying to catch up with the loot ecosystem, let's actually go through a timeline. And I actually don't know which of the three panelists might be actually best to talk about the timeline of the events that unfolded around loot. Does anyone think that they can tell the timeline of loot really, really well? Jackson should. Yeah.

Well, Jackson just got volunteered, so. Yeah, I'll try my best. Yeah, I mean, I was there, you know, from minute one, basically. I think I have a clear sketch of the first few days. and then after that it starts getting really crazy. I think that's true for everyone, yeah. You know, the first like 30 minutes of it was a relatively small number of people. I feel like just going on to the smart contract on Ether scan and connecting their wallets

and minting these bags for free. But after like the first 30 minutes, it started spreading around on Twitter. And I even created like a simple little guide onto Twitter that people could use to figure out how to mint it because so many people aren't familiar with minting NFTs on EtherScan. And so I shared this Twitter thread about how to do it. Other people started sharing things and it just went crazy. And within like a two hour period, I think, you know, all, basically all the loot bags had been claimed.

The gas prices for minting them started skyrocketing because so many people were trying to get on board. And then, of course, you know, Nisha's work with, you know, all the data started like giving people new ways to look at it because previously there wasn't a way to look at it very much. It was just like, here's all these bags. But you had Anisha's data and you had all these other things suddenly starting people trying to query all the data and figure out like what is in all these bags and why are these bags the way they are.

And so you have people asking questions and sort of digging deeper because Dom did not really explain much of anything. He just tweeted this thing out and sort of left it up to people to investigate. Do you think that was by design? That was an intentional choice by Dom? I don't, I mean, I don't think so. I think he, uh, I think he's very much the kind of person that's, he has so much going on. He just loves experimenting.

I genuinely think he just, he had this fun idea. And I was like, I'll just drop this and, you know, go about my day. Um, I don't think he planned any of it, which I, I think makes it all the more special. Um, and then, you know, within several hours, all the people that couldn't have minted the, the loot started trying to buy them on, you know, secondary markets. and you had little sites being built that would filter for specific items. So a friend of mine, he had some divine robes in one of his bags, and he liked the concept of getting all the people who have divine robes together in a private discord.

And then you saw other people doing the same thing, like people who had katanas or dragonskin armor. They were like, well, we want to get together and bond with our fellow people of the dragon skin. And so you saw people doing that. And there's a natural kind of a sense of like the organizing and the building of this stuff is a game itself. Because in a natural sort of fantasy medieval video game, you do have people bonding over certain items and certain things and forming guilds. And here we were sort of forming our own guilds based on this stuff.

But then within 24 hours, you already had people starting building additional projects on top of it. lots of derivative projects, people kind of taking Dom Smart Contract because, you know, it's all open and basically copying the contract and remixing it into all these fun different ways. You know, you even had Pleaser Dow within a few days of it releasing sort of a spinoff that was connected into their dog NFT token. So lots of memes and things that started spinning out of it. And then, you know, within four or five days, the prices of the tokens were just to an insane level. And then, of course, Adventure Gold came out a few days later and Will probably could pick up from there how the madness took off. Well, real quick, though, Jackson, like just backing up.

So was this like two weeks ago? Yeah, just 14 days, I think. 14 days ago. Yeah. Okay. Very crazy. There are two distinct, like, crazy weeks in Ethereum of the last couple years that I remember. The one is Yam week.

Do you guys remember that? where like everything was just all about yams and this this new kind of like you know uh farming craze uh and then yam had some sort of fiasco and there was like a whole uh you know rush to save yams the second is loot week because as soon as loot launched there was just this frenzy of activity as you're talking about right and it not just price activity but all of these other derivative projects being built on top of it yeah so i'm curious will if maybe you could pick up where Jackson left off, where this is kind of like, I guess, the derivatives phase or like the project creation phase of people building on top of loot. So what happened

there, Will? Yeah. So the original idea for Adventure Gold was that it's an in-game currency for the loot ecosystem. People can use it for anything within loot, and it's this kind of common layer for translating between all these derivatives. It kind of came about because one of the one of the one of the direct motivations for it was that some of the derivatives were charging mint prices and eph and it felt kind of a little some of the derivatives were really great. Some of the derivatives were a little cash grabby to say the least. And give some examples of what these derivatives were for people who weren't part of that. So the very first derivative was abstract loot. So it would take your on-chain loot data and create an abstract image that's like generative art based on top of

loot. There were, you could, you could, you could generate a map based on your loot. You could generate, you could generate, there were like characters, companions, all these things. And Adventure Gold, the original vision was, oh, this would be a cool way to permission mince, because if everyone use the venture gold. It's now this like ecosystem where this whole ecosystem is is gaining utility and it's not these like some some some derivatives were very thoughtful and very very well done. Some derivatives were less thoughtful and less well done. And if they all use the venture gold, wouldn't that be a really cool way to to build up the whole ecosystem? And then as I was talking with builders on top of loot, people building different RPG games, people building like magic and

Spell systems, I realized with them that Adventure Gold could be this translation layer where you can use Adventure Gold to translate it to, for example, Lute Wars has XP, which is a fork of adventure gold. The Genesis Project has Mona, which is also a fork of Adventure Gold. And Adventure Gold can be this cross-compatible layer between all of these different parts of the ecosystem. That was the original vision of Adventure Gold, and that's what's being carried forward. There was this kind of detour of Adventure, adventure. venture gold is a governance token that I'm happy to dive into if you'd like. But yeah, the idea is that it's this in-game currency for the ecosystem that could help strengthen all of these projects building on top of it. Yeah, I think one key thing that if listeners aren't familiar should know is, of course, you had to have loot to participate in all of these derivatives, right? And even with adventure gold, is that the case, Will, like you had to actually own loot in order to mint and claim adventure gold. Is that part of the incentive structure and part of the kind of design? Yeah, so I also wanted to use adventure gold to set a tone for the loop ecosystem.

So I just said, 10,000 adventure gold for every loop bag. I'm not reserving any for myself. I want this to be something for the community, something that the community can use. And it was a complete 100% fair launch. And this was to try to set the tone for the community, as we thought about derivatives of how to distribute them fairly. Because there were a variety of approaches taken for derivative. Some were like, claim it now because if you don't claim it, someone else will claim your loot bags item forever. Other ones were like loot holders have an unlimited amount of time to claim, and you can claim it whenever you'd like.

And I really wanted to set the tone of fair launches for the community. in a way that benefits all loot holders because I think loot is like loot has this tension between scarcity and abundance and loot also has this tension between FOMO and short-term thinking and like long-term builders. And I wanted to move people towards abundance and move people towards long-term builders

and less on the scarcity side, less on the FOMO side. So because I want to zoom out and talk about try and get to your guys's opinions as to the holistic definition of this whole loot thing. So not just the loot bags, not just the adventure gold, but I want to, and maybe just more about the concept of loot. So in your guys' own words, what is it that we are actually talking about? Because it kind of feels like the way that we can like model out loot is kind of like an ant colony or a beehive. it's not like an individual B that is the actual thing that's alive. It's the whole entire ecosystem.

The entity is the fact that all of these individual moving parts are one seamless, coherent ecosystem. So when you guys zoom out and we step away from the individual bags and the individual items and the individual forks and the individual airdrops, what is loot? Like, what is this thing? Anish, let's start with you. Sure. I mean, at the literal level, like we've all discussed, I think very simply lutes a collection of 8,000 unique bags of adventure gear that you are free to use in any way.

I think the abstract level is a little bit cooler, though. It's the fact that it's an unfiltered, uncensurable building block for anything else that you want to build on top, whether that's stories, games, experiences, derivatives, and it's all put into the hands of the community, free for use. We've all sort of mentioned that these items are in the contract themselves, unlike in a URL. And I think that's super unique about loot. It's the fact that there's no restriction. It's directly on Ethereum. So so long as the network is alive running uncensoredable, those same properties apply to loot, which makes it a really, really good building block for anyone to build on top, fork, change, experiment, and do whatever they want with it.

So it's like a creative playground, if you so say. Will, you want to continue the thought? What the hell is this whole loot phenomenon? Yeah. So related to Anish's point of this being a creative playground, the interesting thing is that there's a debate in the Lute community over is Lute building a game, or are we already all playing the game? And I think that this is really interesting because Lute has already developed its own

universe of guilds of lore, of in-game currency and economics, and and there's already builders building on top of it. So, yeah, the lead community has kind of become this thing much larger than itself, where, like, there is this just incredible group of guilds that have already begun. So I think that we're already playing the game personally, that we're not waiting for a game to be built. This is, we're all living it. Jackson, you want to add anything to this definition of this loot phenomenon?

Yeah, I mean, I think there's two sort of like metaphors that I feel like I've been using as I describe it to my friends. You know, one of which is it's kind of, you know, it's kind of for the more technical minded, it's kind of like an API. You know, you have like it's, it's this thing that anyone can plug into and pull from, which, you know, everyone, you know, if you're a developer, like, you know the power of a good API and like what it can do. So that's really awesome. And then the other one is, is like similar to this idea of a playground. Like I think that, I think Lude very much is kind of like Legos. Legos are all these different types of little pieces and you can build so many amazing things with them. And I think to some degree, that's sort of what Dom did is he just had a bunch of these little tiny pieces of, you know, that people could look at.

You can look at a pile of Legos and think of things you could start building out of them. I think that's kind of what it was. And I think the longevity and popularity of Lego is kind of a good example of like just how like how much stuff can come out of just a bunch of small little building blocks. Can we talk about like what you guys are contributing to Lute and like like why? So I think many people are perplexed with, you know, why why people would even have incentive to contribute. to loot or build things on top of loot. Like, why not go fork and create your own loot, right? Like, the economic designs we've been used to in the past is if you get a list of items

in some massive multiplayer online RPG, right? It's very much tied to the game. And there's a reason they've created, generated this list of items, like Diablo 3 list or World of Warcraft list of scarce items. It's to allow people to play the game, right? And if you went to them and said, hey, I've got a really great idea, all you have to do is just generate the list of items and put that on Ethereum. Like, that would be nonsensical, I think, to everything we know about how traditionally these metaverses and gaming experiences form. But all of you have been contributing to loot in various ways.

And I guess I want to know why. Like, what's, is, is it, is it, is there some economics as part of this? Is this just, you know, a hobby, kind of social interests? Why do you think people are incented to actually build on top of this loop project? Why don't we start with you, Jackson? Yeah, I mean, I think for me, like, it's, it's, I feel like my sort of incentives or interests have kind of evolved as time has gone on. From minute one, like, I was mostly interested in it, most interesting contributing to help people, other people interact with this thing that I thought was special. So I loved it.

I wanted other people to be able to experience it too. This is before there was any idea of money involved with it or investing or anything. And so I knew that lots of people didn't know how to get onto Ether scan and actually connect with it meant from it. So my initial contribution was literally just, here's how to do that. Here's a short guide. And from there, like so many people took that guide. and ran with it and did it. And I had so many messages from people that were saying,

this is my first NFT. This is the first time I'd ever done anything with Ethereum. Like, that to me is amazing. And so, you know, one of the reasons like I work at Rainbow is because I I love being, you know, wallets, wallets are kind of this place where you first get to interact with people on their journey and Ethereum and Web3. And I love being at that intersection and helping people with those basics and getting people onboarded. So like my, my role, in, I guess, the loot ecosystem to some degree, I feel like from the get-go has always been making things more accessible, understanding it, promoting it,

distilling these things down so that more people can access it. And even, like, curating, because there's just so many things out there that I've tried to pick and choose and find the better things that I believe other people should be paying attention to. What gives you the energy to do all that? Is it in the community or is it, like, economic or what?

that's I mean honestly it I think to some degree I really love seeing people get excited about the things that I'm excited about too like I I really love NFTs I love Ethereum and I believe other people will like them also and so if I can give people the opportunity to make to get into that just as easily as I got into it like it gives me a lot of joy just to see other people getting to experience that too like as soon as I minted lots of those loot bags, I started sending them to my friends. I sent many divine robes and other bags to friends that had never had an NFT before. I guess I sent one to a friend and two days later, he was able to sell it for like $30,000. Like that was his first NFT experience. And so like I didn't know they were going to be worth that much when I started sharing them

around. But like it was just fun and I enjoyed it. And it was like a game. Like it was very like enjoyable from like a entertainment perspective. Jackson's going to have a lot of friends requests after this show Jackson's friend. Well, Will, how about you? So you created this whole adventure gold derivative, but I'm curious maybe for you, I know you kind of shared some of the story of why you created it, but what are the incentives both for you and why you're involved, but also why do you think this, you know, so many things have been built around this? What's incenting people? Yeah. So I think I'll start with why I made Adventure Gold, I think the way I did with no honorment or anything like that, is because the Lute community is a really special place,

and it's a special place of people thinking long term about how to build a really, really strong ecosystem. And Adventure Gold, I mean, I assumed it would have absolutely no value. It would would just be a fun kind of doze corn style thing where you'd just like tip your friends with it and, you know, like like trade it around and not not, not that it would, that it would have no, no value. And I thought it would just be like, oh, this is a fun thing for the ecosystem to have. And I think that the like, like, were there like I, I, there were no economic incentives at play because I did not expect the venture goal to have any value whatsoever. I just thought, This is a fun group of people working together on a long-term project,

and it's cool for them to have something that can unify a bunch of these different derivatives together. And I think that all the derivatives, and it's just people, like some of the builders I talked with didn't hold any loot. They just really love the community. And I guess, like, if you want to boil it down to an economic incentive, like, sure, building a derivative on top of loot gives you access to a built-in audience, but it still only gives you access to a built-in audience of 8,000 people maximum. So I think that it's really just like the community is very special in the way they collaborate. And like building something that inspires others is ultimately something very satisfying. And that is, that is very rewarding.

Anish, what do you think the secret's been of Lute's success and this wild adoption from the community and these people who are so enthusiastic about building on top of it? I think the answer is and the question that you asked, It's all in the community itself. I think that's been the primary reason that I've been drawn in to help contribute. It's just it's super exciting seeing things that you built, get built, you know, get used by other projects, get used by other builders to incorporate those things into tools. One of the first things I did was just a quick data repository that I threw out there that, you know,

scraped all of the loot attributes, gave some rankings, put some other probabilities. And then I continued to do that over the weekend for other derivatives that popped up. and a bunch of other projects were built on top of that, that offered variety of cool things to other people building in the Lube community. And so it really became like this expansive spider web where even a single small contribution that one person can make has a ripple effect where other people build on top of that. In the same way like Will mentioned Adventures Gold,

even that single contribution, now there's other derivative projects that build on top of that and the web just keeps getting bigger and bigger. In the same way, put together like the Lute Project website, loot loose and all these other projects, and people continue to build on top of it and, you know, remix it in their own way. And I think the coolest thing is that because all of this is public domain work, because all of it's generally unlicensed or free unrestrictive licenses, everyone is free to go and continue to build on top of this work. To answer your sort of question of like what draws people

in, though, in the community, I think it's when you take a look at AAA games, the hardest part is getting users to play those games. It's the fact that you can build the absolute best game in the world and still people might not play it. In contrast with loot, you have an existing community of thousands of people that not only hold these NFTs, but also extension loot and synthetic loot, are excited by that concept. And now you have users that you can immediately tap into by building on top of that ecosystem. And I think that's what draws in a lot of people, the fact that there's already a user base that's ready to play a game that already has the items. And all you have to do is tap into that existing community. Guys, we have so much more to cover. But before,

Before we get to kind of the next piece of this, which is like talking about the future of Lute, I want to zone in on this question because I feel like this is the base question we started with actually when we, when, you know, we started bankless, you know, David and I started bankless on this quest to understand the value of crypto systems, right? And we've had so many conversations, the bankless podcast about related topics. Vitalik constantly talks about this concept called credible neutrality, right? Also, you had a famous post about legitimacy, right? Legitimacy being the most scarce asset that any crypto network can have, right? And these concepts are interwoven in this question of like, what actually is money and how would a ground-up

decentralized money get built? And it seems like the credible neutrality of the issuance, the legitimacy that the community puts into it across these various dimensions. are key factors of how something becomes a monetary asset. And so my question is, like, you know, Bitcoiners will talk about Satoshi, you know, the immaculate proof of work, no pre-mine. You know, Ethereum will talk about like the first ICO being Ethereum where, you know, things were relatively pure back then and very hard to replicate those initial conditions here. With loot, I almost see a similar thing taking place in that we didn't have a pre-mars.

mine. The founder didn't necessarily have a profit seeking motive behind this, and neither did the community. And I'm curious if you think that the, I guess the conception of this project is very important in the future of its story. So like a skeptic might come and ask the question, like, yeah, if, if, you know, Fortnite went into this or Epic or some like Blizzard, some major game studio just put out a list of items, took a profit share, pushed that in the community, then they'll absolutely destroy Lute because it's Blizzard Entertainment, like, and they're a big gaming publisher. But like, I think the more crypto-native approach, given everything we've seen in the space, we'd probably say, no, actually. And it's because an outside

entity does not have the legitimacy and the credible neutrality and the issuance that's something like Lute did. So I guess my question is, is, do you think the factors of the way loot was brought into existence have been key to its success? Is this just another chapter in the same cryptos story that we've seen? Anish, I'm curious, your thoughts on that first. Definitely. I think it's the fact that, like most of us have mentioned, we went into this with no expectations, no profit motives, nothing of that sort, and built something on top of that. And that's something fundamentally different from, let's say, if Blizzard were to come in and build a game, where it would be for a profit motive, if we'd serve the shareholders

of Blizzard, whereas here it's more so, let's serve the community members. Let's build something together that all of us would want to play in the future. And so it's really that community collaborative aspect of building something, which is the unique part. And like Will mentioned earlier, it's like maybe building loot, maybe building all these derivative projects is the game itself where we're not building towards a game, but everything that we're doing to get there is the game. It's the collaboration between all of us, building adventures gold, building these derivative projects, we're in a game itself. And so that's super fascinating to me. Will Jackson, do you have anything to add on that thread? Yeah, I think that the legitimacy of loot, in addition to

the way it was launched where it was a, it was a open launch on Twitter that anyone could get for free and Adventure Gold being a fair launch and many derivatives being a fair launch. I think that in addition to that, there's the legitimacy that comes from the experimentation is that, I mean, we're talking about the derivatives that have gained prominence. There's been dozens of derivatives that have not. And that's because, like, at the end of the day, there is, the community decides what to adopt. Like, I don't think Adventure Gold would have been adopted if I had taken, ownerment. I don't think it would have.

Because the derivatives we hear about are the ones that have been broadly accepted. And the community kind of acts as its own, its own, its own filter of what they choose and choose not to accept. There's stuff that's not even on the loop derivatives website that like got like downvoted so heavily in the Discord that like it never went anywhere. So yeah, this legitimacy, what we see has already been blessed as legitimate because it's what the community really likes. then there's that bottom-out aspect.

That's very powerful. Jackson, you want to add any color to that? I mean, I think really at a very high level, it's just people saw that there were pure motives and how all this stuff happened and there was no, like, ulterior motive of anything. And I think when people see just people doing fun, good things out of the bottom of their heart,

like those kinds of things, I think, are more likely to catch on in a collaborative environment than when one person tries to come in and do something that's going to benefit them. So like, Dom has sort of a track record of just doing things that don't have any kind of weird ulterior motives to them. He's just known kind of for that within the community. And, you know, I think, I think, you know, there's this element of, I don't know if

loot would have caught on to the degree if another random person had have released it with no prior credibility or experience, but Dom had been building and doing things and had a reputation leading up to dropping this experiment. So I definitely think that that played a lot into it. Like if Dom had not had the good reputation that he had, I don't think it would have gone as far as it has. So guys, Ryan just gave that very optimistic, oh, credible neutrality, we'll build this thing. Yay, it's going to work. It's totally going to work. I want to put my devil's advocate hit hat on and be really, really skeptical about this whole thing. But before I do that, we're going to have to take a break to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible.

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All right, guys, we are back with the Lute panel. And I'm about to put on my skeptics hat because Ryan talked about how the legitimacy behind these L1 blockchains are emulated in loot. And I want to throw a flag and say, well, you can't actually take the legitimacy behind an L1 asset or an L1 blockchain and actually just apply it to some sort of app layer thing, right? And like if loot is this game that we're all playing, like it's starting off with these items and then there's going to be this ecosystem built around it. Like, why do we think a nebulous decentralized set of people can actually build this thing

in contrast to like some AAA Blizzard Activision game with like, you know, shareholder like responsibilities, a bunch of employees, a lot of capital, an actual goal that they want to build towards? And then like a community of people ready to play their game that they must satisfy. Lute has none of those things. It doesn't even, it doesn't have a player base. It has like a builder base. It doesn't really have an end goal.

It has just a bunch of things that people want to contribute to. And then there's like this community of people who like, like me, I can't actually build anything. I'm not a coder. I can just ape into a loop bag and then wait for the game to be built so that when I'm done with all my bankless stuff, I have this fun RPG that I get to go play. Who's responsible for building me my game? and why do we even think that this is even remotely feasible?

Like, I'm again, putting on my devil's advocate hat, but like, why is, why do we even think that like crypto isn't just jumping the shark right now? Jackson, you're nodding your head pretty well. You want to start? Yeah, sure. I mean, I definitely think that, like you, I do share a lot of skepticism about it myself. Like even as an active participant in a community member, I, I generally don't know where this is going to go. Like, it might not go anywhere long term. But to some degree, uh, I'm also not a

coder. Like I am the only, like I'm a very non-technical person. And so all I've been able to do is really help spread the word and talk about it. But, um, my, in some ways, I kind of view loot as, as more of a, it's kind of like how when you go and back a project on like Kickstarter or mirror, like you have, you have some skin in the game. You're not really sure if like the thing is going to actually turn into anything meaningful or interesting. But it's kind of like you see the potential of something being built. And maybe it'll get built or not, but you want to be involved in that story. And owning a loot bag or holding a loot bag gives you a chance to follow along closely with this story, be involved in it, even from the periphery of being in like a token gated

discord or getting to vote on governance proposals. So like I, I don't, I really honestly do not know if a really great game is ever going to come out of this. There might not be one. But I think that it will be fun to, like, I think one of the elements that makes this fun is the fact that we're really early in this whole NFT story. Like as an overarching chapter of Ethereum, we're still relatively early with NFTs. So this as a project, I think, regardless of how it turns out, will be. be a historical project. And I think that there's lots of, there's lots of like, legitimacy to the idea of wanting to be involved in something that could turn out to be

something really interesting. Will, do you have any thoughts about the skeptic, skeptical side of this whole phenomenon? Yeah, David, I'd say that you're already playing the loop game. I mean, we're sitting here talking about loot and we're not talking about one of the many dozens of derivatives. So, like, we are all kind of in our, own ways continuing to build the loop ecosystem and how we talk about it and then approach it. But does that make it any meaning meaningfully different than just a Ponzi game? It's like, oh yeah, the more people that we can get to talk about loot, like the better. Like it kind of just feels like, yeah, let's just get all the world to talk about loot.

Like, is that, is that really an objective? This industry is built on Ponzi games, sir. What are you talking about? So I would say, I would say that building is defined very expensively. And it's, and there are lots of people who are working on. things that you can do with your loot bags and you can play them in games and that's really cool. And there's a governance vote right now about how the treasuries should be handled. Should there be a treasury?

Should we go and fund projects to let you do things with your loot bags? So there's, you have a loot bag, what can you do with it? There's also like, what can we do around the loot ecosystem? And that is where I think building is much more broadly defined, where loot has now at this point occupied this like part of the crypto cultural consciousness of this just like incredible decentralized experiment um and like at the end of the day like that's a that's a that's something that will that will live on and exist parallel to any game that's built um and they they're very symbiotic with each other uh anise any thoughts on the skeptics take on on this whole thing

yeah i think even if you're not a builder in the traditional sense of you know writing the contracts, making derivatives, building projects. Everyone that is a part of the loot community is sort of like writing the lore for the story already. It's the fact that the last two weeks has just been two weeks of an expansive lore of what is to come for loot. It's like we'll look back, maybe in a month, we'll look back at this and be laughing about, you know, this is what the first two weeks were like, you know, this was a bankless podcast. And after this, all these things came out. And all of us really are just participants that are, this is an RPG almost, right? It's like we are the participants in the loot lore, building the lore as we go.

And so, yeah, in two months from now, people might forget, but that lore is always still there for people to look back at and be like, hey, this was super fascinating. This was super cool. To me, that's the most exciting part, the fact that we're shaping the story as we go. David, can I answer your question too? I'm going to have an answer to that question. So, like, why does Lute have to build a game in the first place?

is my answer to that question, right? Well, hold on, no. So we've seen like the institutionalization of Bitcoin of ETH. What would the institutionalization of loot look like? Well, that's just like Blizzard, Activision, Epic Games, saying, hey, you can now import your loot items into our gaming system. Maybe Lute doesn't even have to build the game. Maybe it's just this lore and this community,

and it's other game studios seeking crypto legitimacy, NFT legitimacy and like pulling loot into their ecosystems. I have no idea. But if I was thinking about the loot team from like an organic business development perspective, I'd be like, let's push this out to all of the gaming studios and figure out how they can start incorporating loot into their games and create like an NFT gaming space race there. And then loot has the advantage in that it's the most legitimate. It's the first.

This is the fat loot thesis, sir. Are you not familiar? I love the vision. And there's like we've seen other projects in crypto successfully get to that point. But I just think loot is so far away from that in its current form that like even saying that is like, if I was like a Bitcoin maxi, I'd be like, you are just like pushing dreams into these into the minds of just like innocent. apers who don't know what they're doing. Like that's what a Bitcoin Maxi would say, I think. I actually, maybe this is kind of the next question for the panelists.

So would you guys put on your skeptical takes for a minute here? I know we're all bullish on Lute as a project, right? Or maybe some of us aren't, I'm not sure. But what about, like, loot, are you still skeptical about? Like, what could still kind of go wrong and derail the project, derail the community. Will, I'm curious your thoughts. I know you mentioned governance earlier. Is that something that could take us down? I'd say governance has been the most contentious thing that the community has had to deal with because there's two camps. One camp is it should all be

decentralized, all fully experimental, all ground up. The community has already decided what's legitimate and know what's not. They can continue to have this informal sense of legitimacy just based on how much of something is minted and who uses it and who builds on top of it. Then the other camp is, whoa, we have this huge opportunity to build a treasury that can provide, like, seed funding to tons of projects and allow people to go, like, quit their jobs and work on loot full time. We could, we could convince David to come and join and write lore. We could convince, like, convince builders to, like, I've been talking to builders who are at game studios who are talking about, like, working on loot full time. And I think there's two camps. One camp is this should be a fully decentralized experiment.

There should be no layers of approval. There should be no layers of legitimacy. I'm sympathetic to that, but I think that the opportunity to build a treasury and build an ecosystem and fund people to actually go do this full-time. Does that create some short-term contentious discussions? Yes. Do I think that's valuable in the long-term? Absolutely. Am I in the minority on this?

I think so. And I think that, like, governance, I don't think would take loot down. But I think that there is a fork in the road right now of, is this a fully decentralized experiment? Or are we going to take a, like, I don't know how much, $15 million treasury and go fund things with that? That's an open question that the community is still deciding. Anish, what's your take on this? Maybe skeptical. What could take loot down, make it so it doesn't live up to its potential?

I think I agree with what Will said in terms of governance has sort of been biggest fork in the road thus far. My first take to that, though, is that I think contention is a good thing where it sort of gets everyone talking about the important parts of loop, right? Where it's like these questions are things that we're going to come up and either they came up today or they're going to come up a month down the line or a year down the line. And so it's a great thing that we get past them as early as possible. and we sort of decide, you know, this is what we'll do, this is what we won't do. And I think the good part about the fork in the road is that quite literally, if you don't agree, you are free to go fork loot and, you know, take the community members and go build from that point onwards as well. It's sort of like in lore, you can have multiple derivations

of the lore depending on who sees what as, you know, the de facto standard. And I think that to me is also a part of expanding the loot universe where if there is disagreement, we go build loot in different directions. And at the end of the day, it all comes back to this sole, you know, initial project, initial 8,000 bags that were minted. And so I think, yeah, governance will definitely be contentious. I don't see that as a bad thing, though. I see that as exciting. Jackson, your take on this. Yeah, I definitely agree with everything they just said. I think those are some great points. I think the other element to this is, I think that's something that I've already started

noticing is holding back the ecosystem and potentially could hold it back even more is, is the financial component of it. I think that there are lots of people that do have large stakes in the ecosystem from a financial standpoint as an investment. And there's also a lot of speculation around, you know, the loot assets themselves and trading on secondary markets. And I've noticed even myself as a contributor, like,

as I've said on this podcast, like, I got into it not from a financial standpoint, but like I just loved the concept dove in and shared it with lots of people. I think I even, you know, as someone who was in like the Divine Robs group early on, I've even found that to some degree it's become, it's become like a little uneasy to be like a builder in this space around one of these, I guess, grail items because there is a sense of like, do I have like a bunch of people's bag, literally like bags like financial bags like on my shoulder because like I'm affiliated with this thing? So I think, you know, if, you know, if we're not careful, like to your point about Blizzard or Activision or something coming in and doing a project

and they have, you know, board of directors and investors, like, we kind of have that to some degree here as well. Like, we do have investors and people that have a lot of stake in this. So I think, you know, I think we can't, we can't really, we can't really assume that the space we're in is totally pure and has amazing, like, you know, potential for, like, there's a lot of things that could go wrong here too. I think if we don't, if we don't keep this at the top of our mind and think actively about how to solve those problems and difficulties, we could easily see ourselves, you know, having the same struggles that a blizzard might have. Guys, this has been such a fantastic panel and thanks so much for coming and spending some of your

time as we explore this undefined ecosystem. And so my last question for you guys is, has this whole loop phenomenon, this whole loop concept changed your vision? vision of what the future will look like and is the concept of the metaverse at all involved with this. Anish, let's start with you. I think it has. I think this has been a good experiment to play around with initial spurs of the metaverse. I think the two most important things it's done for me. The first has been this concept of asset first development. The fact that even before a game has been developed, you can have assets like NFTs that represent future items in those games. and build a community around that and then take community input to then build a game moving forward.

So in the case of Lute, it's, we, you know, really, Dom released 8,000 Lutebags into the world, and now we're building the game, we're building the lore that is used in this game. So it's a really great community bootstrapping mechanism, which I think more and more projects will continue to adopt as we move towards the Metaverse. The second thing I think that has been really important for me is the fact that the simple phrase that no one can say no, the fact that I'm a big, believer in open source technologies public domain work and in the same way loot really embodies that and i think it'll become more relevant in nfts projects and general projects in the future where people

are free to build on top of these people are free to release derivatives and that's really useful in not only just you know spreading the word whether that's spreading the word about loot or other projects but in building that natural community in building these derivative projects the fact that you can do whatever you want whenever you want however you want so i think yeah those are the two things that I think will be the most relevant and sort of future projects are the things that we see being built on top of loop. Will, how has this whole loop phenomenon

changed your model of what the future might look like? Yeah, I mean, I think that Lute took off because it was an open ecosystem that I can build on top of. And that makes me very optimistic about the future of the Metaverse. Like, we have Facebook building out metaverse applications.

Do you think we're going to get a permissionless open ecosystem from a company that doesn't let you export your friends list? Probably not. does LUT show that the success the Metaverse is dependent on these interlocking projects being able to create a whole far greater

than, far, far greater than any individual part. I think that it showed that. So I think that the Metaverse will be won by the open platforms. And I think that Lute is a indicator in its favor. Jackson, the same question to you for you to tie this whole thing off. How has Lute changed your version of the future that you have in your head? And how is the metaverse relevant to that future, if it is at all? Yeah, I mean, I think the whole thing I don't think has changed me that much other than it's made me believe a lot deeper in the idea of public domain and the concept of making intellectual property of NFTs far more open.

I think that Dom has, you know, with many of his projects, he has pushed forward the idea of just, you know, one of the phrases I see him using on Twitter a lot is you can do anything you want, take it. Like when people ask him about his projects, like he'll literally just say, you can do whatever you want. And I think that that is like, I think the truly successful projects that I think will have long lasting impact are going to be the ones that continue to be more open rather than the ones that choose to be more closed off. Because at the end of the day, that's what makes the difference between Web 3 versus Web 2. And I think if we choose not to lean into that, I don't think we're going to be able to see as more amazing things happen, which is, you know, I think Lute is a challenge to every other NFT project out there saying, how open can you be and will you dare to do that?

Because I think it is scary to some people who are creating things to make what they're creating open. But I think at the end of the day, it's probably in most cases the right move. Do you dare to be open? Panelists, this has been a fantastic discussion. I think we're going to have to end it there. But super excited to do a future bankless panel on loot again in a few months maybe and see what's going on in the ecosystem. So thanks everyone for joining us. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Wow. Super cool. A new mental model there, I think unlocked for me is like the idea of moving from open source software, which we already have to open source. assets. That's really what Lute is very cool. Of course, though, irrespective of price, none of this has been financial advice. It never is on bankless. ETH is risky, defy is risky, crypto is risky, so is Lute. You could definitely lose what you put in, but we are headed west. This is the frontier.

It's not for everyone, but we're glad you're with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot. Hey, we hope you enjoyed the video. If you did, head over to Bankless HQ right now to develop your crypto investing skills. and learn how to free yourself from banks and gain your financial independence. We recommend joining our daily newsletter, podcasts, and community as a bankless premium subscriber to get the most out of your bankless experience. You'll get access to our market analysis, our alpha leaks, and exclusive content, and even the bankless token for airdrops, raffles, and unlocks.

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