Bankless - GMoney | Layer Zero

Episode Date: November 16, 2021

gmoney holds one of the four knitted cap ape CryptoPunks, and is a prolific investor. From riding the dot com bubble all the way down as a pre-teen to buying apple calls in high school, gmoney has always been deeply fascinated by finance. gmoney has a keen eye for the broad markets and makes informed trading & investment decisions. Since the start of the pandemic and crypto's subsequent rise, gmoney's tone has shifted to one of a 'disruptor' and 'futurist.' Falling down the NFT rabbit-hole in 2020 has demonstrated a character development of sorts, shifting from the harsh, objective financial markets to a more art-based, community-based one. gmoney's approach to making money is fascinating, but perhaps not nearly as interesting or important as his role in the budding metaverse. ------ 📣 OPOLIS | YOUR CRYPTO CAREER https://bankless.cc/Opolis  ------ 🚀 SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/  🎙️ SUBSCRIBE TO PODCAST: http://podcast.banklesshq.com/  ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: ⚖️ ARBITRUM | SCALING ETHEREUM https://bankless.cc/Arbitrum  🍵 MATCHA | DECENTRALIZED EXCHANGE AGGREGATOR https://bankless.cc/Matcha  🔐 LEDGER | SECURE YOUR ASSETS https://bankless.cc/Ledger  🧙‍♀️ ALCHEMIX | SELF-PAYING LOANS http://bankless.cc/Alchemix  ------ Resources: Benjamin on Twitter: https://twitter.com/intocryptoverse?s=20  Benjamin's Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRvqjQPSeaWn-uEx-w0XOIg  Into the Cryptoverse:  https://intothecryptoverse.com/  ----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/bankless-disclosures  ----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/bankless-disclosures 

Welcome to Layer Zero. Layer Zero is a podcast of unscripted conversations with the people that make up the Ethereum community. Crypto is built by code, but it is composed by people, and each individual member of the crypto community has their own story to tell. Cypherpunks understood that the code they write impacts the people that use it, and Layer Zero focuses on the people behind the code because Ethereum is people all the way down and it always has been.

Today, we are speaking with G Money, the famous knitted cap ape on Twitter, and a prolific just market investor. And G Money has been sharpening his teeth in markets from a very, very early age. He got into the world of markets at the age of 12. So the world of finance, the world of markets definitely pulled him in very, very early. And getting those lessons early in his lifetime really helped him get eventually into the world of crypto. I think he's a phenomenal person to actually be able to remove bias and personal interests in markets and really just being able to look at the broad market as a whole and make informed decisions. decisions after that. And that's what allowed him to really establish himself before getting into

crypto. And then got into crypto in 2017, smartly used the lessons of the dot com bubble to timeish the top of the market and then not have to go through the grueling bear market. And then also fantastically timed getting back into crypto. And so really just used kind of in the same way when we were talking to DC, use his experiences in legacy markets to really inform his guidance into crypto markets. And then we go into his transition into the worlds of NFT. And I really like the juxtaposition

between G Money's Time and NFTs versus G Money's Time in Tradfy markets where one is very transactional, one is very just like performance-based. NFTs are much more community-based and what are NFTs other than art, so art-based as well. I think it really tells a fantastic story

of character development of going from, you know, cold, traditional markets into warm, fuzzy, NFT community markets. So I hope you enjoy this conversation. with G Money. Before we get to that conversation, however, we have to talk for a moment about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible. The era of proof of stake is upon us, and Lido is working to bring proof of stake to everyone. Lido is a decentralized staking

protocol that allows users to stake on Ethereum, Terra, and Solana, and receive an interest-bearing token in return. Stake any amount of your ETH to the Lido validating network and receive STEth in return. This ST-Eth can be traded, used as collateral for lending or borrowing, or leveraged on your favorite defy protocol, and all this without locking up your eth in a centralized staking service or exchange. That's what Lido is here to do. Lido makes staking accessible to everyone at the click of a button. By delegating your stake to Lido's network of nodes, you can access the yield offered by proof of stake systems and claim your share of network transaction rewards. Do you have 32Eth and wants to stake it to Ethereum, but running a node? node sounds intimidating? Or maybe you have less than 32Eath and you need to pool your ETH with others so you can access staking yields. Lido offers a solution to both.

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price. Mata also allows for you to make limit orders on chain so you can set and forget your defy trades and they will go through automatically while you're away. New to Masha is an integrated fiat on ramps, you can purchase crypto directly with your credit or debit card and have that fiat be instantly traded for any token that has liquidity. When you're making a trade, head over to macha.xyz slash bankless and connect your wallet to start getting the best prices and most liquidity when you trade your crypto assets. Hey, G, money. How's it going? Hey, how are you? How are you doing? Thanks for having me. Fantastic. I'm a huge fan, so so glad to finally make it on the podcast. Yeah, you are going to be the first pseudo-anonymous person on Layer Zero.

And for those that are actually watching the video, there is an animated Cryptopunk monkey with the knitted cap, which of course is G Money's famous ape Cryptopunk. How did you get this animation? How does animation work? This was actually made by Cryptonovo and a couple people that he works with. It was like in January and February when I bought the ape and I was talking about punks a lot at the meeting of the year. He is a fellow punk holder. he owns a tassel and he was like hey like let me get you a snapchat filter that you can use on zoom calls and i was like that sounds amazing and uh i've been using it ever since i love it yeah and so

again for the people listening to this the mouth g money's mouth actually moves and it looks like the eyes actually blink too which is pretty crazy and also if you turn your head it looks like it's very 3d so yeah it's a 3d rendering of the ape that's fantastic okay this is like this is super cool because i also saw scooby triples from Alchemics to do this with like an anime character. And this is a perfect moment in time to really be injecting some of these Snapchat filters because we're all talking about the Metaverse. And now we get to like layer on these new like virtual representations of who we are as we

are on these Zoom calls, really enabling like the pseudo-anonymous people on crypto Twitter and around to still be on camera, but still also be anonymous. I think this is really fantastic. Yeah, I think it's super cool. And I think we're probably going to see more and more of this going forward. forward, right? Like, when I got into NFTs, I understood them right away because of Fortnite. And, you know, the way people, the way kids will change their skins every 15 to 20 minutes, like, I wouldn't be surprised if, you know, you have multiple lenses where, you know, I want to be

an ape on this, on this call and I want to be a unicorn on the next one, right? Like, I think it's, I think it's, I think it should be really cool in opening up a whole new world of personalization. Right, right. I'll put on my ape while I'm gaming. I'll put on my suit and tie while I'm on Zoom. Yeah. And yeah, it's really like choose your own adventure, choose your own identity as the time comes for it. Exactly.

G Money, where did the name G money come from? So my name begins with a G. And it's a very ethnic name. So a lot of people couldn't pronounce it growing up in the tri-state area of New York City. And people called me G as a nickname. And I got G money because I always had a knack for making money. So like that, that's one that's stuck throughout high school. school and college. And I definitely want to pick up on that knack as we go through this story. So let's go

all the way back. When did the knack of making money start? When did you realize that you had a knack for this? Well, let's see. I first started following the stock market when I was 12 years old. Okay, so it's a bit extremely early. Yeah. And, you know, for some reason, when I was little, when I was like five or six, like on the Dow Jones, it kind of tells you, or on the nightly news, tells you, oh, the Dow Jones went up or down today. And I remember asking my dad, like, what's the Dow Jones? And he was like, that's gambling. Don't ever do that.

And obviously, naturally, I was drawn to it. And so when I was 12, my grandmother bought me the Wall Street Journal guide to investing. And that, like, kind of taught you how to read stock tables and, like, what a bond is and, you know, what a stock is. And it was super, super basic. And when... Is this your grandma going around your dad? No, like sneaking it to you.

This was like one day we're like at Barnes and Nobles and I'm like, you know, can you buy this for me? And obviously like it's a book. Like you're going to buy that for a kid if he's asking for it. Right. And so I was, you know, like I hadn't really, I was always, I guess, curious at that point, but I hadn't really done anything with it until I was like 12 around there. And then when I went to high school, I got an academic scholarship to go. I went to a private school.

And I made a deal with my parents that. the money that they would have spent on my tuition, they let me invest. And that was in like 96, 97. So I was able to take that money, which obviously at the time was significant to me. And I invested in the stock market. I made a bunch of money. And then- Was that a hard thing to convince your parents?

Like, hey, give me money so I can go invest in it? No, it wasn't because, like, it was, I think they saw it as like education. and they saw that it was already like really into the stock market like i would like get the i would get the newspaper every day and i would like check stock quotes right like this is like like as the internet was evolving right like i made i'm in my late 30s so like the internet wasn't prolific at that point right like my first internet experience was on a 28k modem so this was like before you could check stock quotes it from from your phone and stuff like that okay so with regards to your parents this was definitely like beyond

to phase for you now. This was very much a part of what you were really interested in. Yeah, it was probably one of the things I was the most interested in at that time, like more so than sports or anything else is like really just being enamored with the market, right? And so like I invested, I invested the money. I rode the dot com bubble, you know, made a bunch of money, didn't sell anything and wrote it all the way back down, right? So that was obviously like a super valuable experience for me that became super important later on as I as I got into crypto. And, you know, I went I went to college. One of my best trades, until literally this year getting into NFTs was I remember I was interning in the city going into my senior year of college.

And I was in New York City interning. I'm on the subway. and I look around and I was like, wow, like everybody has these white headphones in their ear. Right. And this is back when the MP3 market was massively fragmented. And I just noticed like, you know, businessmen, high schoolers, like everybody on the train consistently had these white headphones in. And that was the original iPod, the original iPod for listening to music. I remember thinking way back then or somebody else thought this thought, I was too young to think it myself.

But somebody said, Apple did a very, very good job making all of it. of their headphones white. Yeah, yeah, because it was differentiated, right? Because everyone else had your classic black headphones and it didn't stand out. And so I remember sitting in the subway and being like, oh, wow, like, let me buy some Apple calls. And I don't know what it is split adjusted now, but at the time, it was like $10 a share. I bought the $20 calls for $0.49 or $62.

And then I sold them for $49 within 18 months. And, you know, I was like, wow, like that, like, that, like. this is cool. Like I can make a living out of this, right? How old were you at the time? I was 20 or 21. I was going into my senior year of college. Right. Right. Okay. Yeah. So very, very rare for somebody in college to have a sort of windfall. Yeah. And like to me, it's like, I was like, wow, this is definitely what I want to be doing in the future. But I'm an only child and my father is an immigrant and he had a business that I was set to take over. And so I went and I worked with him for three years in that business. And then he called me into his office one day and said, listen,

this is what you're doing. You're doing this for me. And because of that, I love you for it. I really appreciate it. But like, you're not going to succeed because you're not doing it for you. You're doing it for me. This is my dream. It's not yours. And so he told me he's like, go like find a job on Wall Street because that's what you're passionate about. And so at that point, like, because I had experienced success with like that Apple trade and a couple of other things, I was like, all right, I can go. And at this point, I'm like 24, 25. And I'm like, all right, I can either I can go to a bank and like try to work my way up the ladder and get my own book and kind of like have my own pad by the time I'm 30.

Or like I had experienced a ton of success already. I just need to learn how to trade and make money in the shorter timeframe. And, you know, because my investments generally would play out. And so I was like, all right, like, let me go put money up. And I put money up at a prop firm and I learned how to trade, right? And that was in, I started in like July of 2007. So it was right before the financial crisis. Like, you know, in like I was before that, like I was short countrywide.

I shorted Bear Stearns. Like I like saw the writing on the wall. If I knew what CDS was, I probably wouldn't be here at this moment because I would have made a ton money off that, but I had no idea what it was. Wow, you shorted the housing market before it crashed. Yeah, I mean, I would, dude, I had countrywide puts when it was at like 35 bucks. Oh my God. That's epic. So, bought Apple calls and shorted short of the market in 2007. That's, that's insane. And, and, like, you know, a lot of it was just kind of just being, just understanding, like, what trends were doing, right? And like, understanding, like, the macro of things and,

and how that affects the micro. And, you know, in in 2008, in September 2008, I went long, like a ton of silver and gold. And like I did great off the bottom. I admittedly, like, didn't know about Bitcoin. If not, I probably would have bought some, you know. I think it was like in 2010. I don't know exactly when, but I remember finding out about Bitcoin around that time, 2010, 2012 time frame, when Bitcoin was at around $27.

And I was on zero hedge and it was posted on zero hedge for the first time. And I was like, wow, this is really cool. And I was like, all right. Like I was trying to figure out how to buy some. I couldn't figure out how to buy it. And then like I just kind of gave up. And then like I saw it started running. And it went to like a thousand bucks.

And then it pulled all the way back to 200. And I was like, okay, that like that's that was the bubble, right? Like that was it. And then I didn't really look at Bitcoin for for a couple years after that. Okay. I definitely want to get into the Bitcoin story, but I also want to back up and go all the way back. So we definitely have like a grasp on like your early interest into markets and definitely having a knack for that. I want to talk a little bit about your education.

Were there any like classes in school, high school or college that really, really resonated with you? Like any kind of subject matter specifically? I mean, I majored in finance. So like I was always, I always like valuation stuff. So I'd say probably in high school, there was only really one business class. was an economic class, which I took, which I loved. And then in college, like, as I'm sitting here thinking about it, probably a tax class, which I took, which, you know, was just, like, really boring, but, like, super informative and practical.

And then also, like, a private evaluation of private businesses, which was basically, like, you know, how to value companies through cash flows, DCF and all that kind of stuff, which I think is super relevant to, like, even just publicly traded companies. to me, I was always, I was always very interested in the market side of things, the publicly traded stuff. Right. So I'm going to go ahead and guess that your education really happened hands-on, right, in a live environment more than it did actually, like in a classroom. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like, I mean, I think those two classes that I mentioned are probably the most relevant classes where I learn stuff. And, you know, it's like understanding price action and

psychology. It's like that's like mass psychology. Like you learn all that stuff like on the job, right? Like you only learn it by feeling it. Like I can tell you like like, like, oh, like when the price moves against you, you should do this or it goes in your favor, take profits here. But like you really don't know until you live it. Right. Like you've been in crypto now for a minute. Like you understand that like you're when you're like when you're feeling the most ecstatic about your position, you should be selling some. And when you're feeling the most depressed about you. You your position, you should be buying some, right? Because that's just the nature of human psychology, no matter what market you're in. That is the markets, right? Like, if you are feeling depressed,

so is the market when the market is also depressed, right? And so, like, you can take your own internal cues and apply them to the market, absolutely. So in the younger phases of your stock market finance education career, be it in university or being hands on, you said you looked around and you saw everyone wearing white earbuds. And so you got into Apple. Then you saw the writing on the wall with the housing market and short of that, and then you got into gold. For me, like, I didn't really care about anything in finance until I discovered crypto. And so that was my thing. But it sounds like you are more broad. You don't have actually no, like, personal interest in any one sector, be it like tech or housing or gold or whatever. Was there any, like, part of,

before crypto, any part of like the financial markets that really resonated with you as a sector? Or is it really just playing the game as a whole? So, I mean, I think, like as I think about it, I very much understand and I like I like consumer discretionary in general like as a as a tech as a stock investor and market participant I'm generally a generalist but I understand consumer trends the best right so it's like the Apple made sense to me because literally I'm just sitting on a subway and I saw it a couple of years later I don't know the exact year but like maybe 2005 2006 like true religion genes I don't know if you remember that fat I do I do that was a publicly company and I remember riding it from like four bucks up to like 20 because like everybody that was

fashionable was wearing them right and there was this huge boon and so like to me it's like I very much just like was just paying attention to data and just being cognizant of these things that happen again like I think to me a lot of it the way I see it is like that's very all these things are very consumer focused and obviously at the end of the day I think the gold trade is you know the gold silver trade is why we all end up in crypto, right? Where it's like hard money and not like money printing is, ended up what kind of drawing me into crypto in the first place. While you were going through this like early phase of your finance stock market life,

were you doing this alone or did you have friends, like-minded friends doing like-minded activities? So for the most part, like in high school, it was definitely me on my own. In college, it was still like me on my own. When I started trading full time, obviously I was trading at at a prop firm with a lot of people who are also like-minded trading their own money.

So, you know, I feel like when you have your own money on the line, it's very, you treat it very differently than if you're running somebody else's money. And so like to me, I very much, I guess I kind of started finding my tribe around like 25, you know, and like my business partner on the equity side, we've been working together since, you know, 2007, which is, I don't know, about 14, 15 years of the business. this point. Before we get into how going with somebody change your disposition, how did you as an individual, everyone has their own like risk tolerance, everyone has their own like personal interest in risk or not. How did that part of your financial life come into play? Like when did you learn that you

were where on the risk spectrum? I think I was always pretty far out on the risk curve. And I think that's pretty evident with, you know, the play I made in NFTs at the beginning of the year. And I very much, like manage, like I think as a trader, as anybody that's dealing with like financial assets in public markets, like you're a risk manager, right? Like that's your entire job, right? Like, you need to size accordingly. You don't want to be too big. You don't want to be too small. You need to be just right. And so, you know, I think I'm further out on the risk curve than most, but I also understand that because I have so much leverage in, let's say, my trading life, like I will, like, buy a house with no mortgage, right? Because I understand that, like, that's not somewhere where

I need leverage, right? Like, if I was working a nine to five job, making an annual salary, of course I want that leverage because I want to appreciate, I want to participate in the appreciation of the asset. But I know that me personally, like, I don't need like something that necessarily is safe where if everything went to hell, you know, I still have a place to sleep, right? And that's kind of the way I see the world very much is like, okay, what's, the risk in this. What am I risking, you know, what, what am I, what do I realistically think my risk is in this and size accordingly, right? You know, like, because, and I think I was doing it a lot on a day to day basis, obviously trading where it's like, okay, like, I think like I'm risking 25 cents,

but if I'm risking 50 cents, it's like double the risk, right? And like that messes up the entire risk reward. So to me, I always, always, always focus on position sizing and what I think my initial risk is and what I think I could lose in any given moment. And that helps determine, like, what I want to do with regards to the position. Most people who are into crypto and likely most people are coming into crypto don't come from finance like you do. But most people don't actually like cognitively think about risks. They just kind of do their thing and then risk maybe comes for them or maybe it doesn't. When did you start like cognitively thinking about risk? Was that like very, very early on in your finance career or like did it come around later?

It didn't start really coming around until I started trading professionally because I think like in order to be successful, like I mean, listen, trading markets is probably, I'd say probably the hardest job in the world. It's, you know, you're, it's emotionally taxing. You have to be very, very disciplined. Like, you know, I've trained a lot of people throughout the years. And I will say the number one thing that determines whether you're successful in in publicly traded markets is your discipline, right? Because like, if let's say, you're risking $100. And this was like a lesson. I always tried to teach kids when like they were starting. It's like, you know, let's say you're risking $100 and you lose $120. Okay, cool, that's not that big of a deal. It's an extra $20. You're still going to be able to eat tonight. But, you know, let's leverage that up like, you know, 100x, right? And like if you're risking $100,000 and you lose $120,000, like, that's a big drawdown. That's significantly more than you were risking. And that messes up your upside scenarios, right? That messes up all your risk reward on any trade that you might take. So to me, it became very, very evident, very early on, especially from the people that taught me is like,

you need to be disciplined. You need to have a system. And, you know, you need to understand that, like, you're not, you know, going to always be right. And you don't, you know, there's a difference between trading to make money and trading to be right. And you're not going to make money if you're trading to be right. Did you learn the whole just risk management behavior from taking a big L at all? Or did you just kind of learn about it just from time? Yeah, like, I mean, I think I've taken big Ls throughout my career, right? Like, I think really young,

making a ton of money in the dot-com bubble and not selling anything because I didn't want to pay taxes. It's like, you know, I went up from like five or six X down to like, you know, losing 90%. Right. So it's like to me like that was like a very valuable lesson early on that, you know, especially as, you know, you make it a professional professional career, like, I'm never necessarily married to a position, right? It's like, this is a trade. And if I'm

wrong, like, I have to get out, right? Or, you know, like, when I hit my risk limit, like, I have to get out, right? And that's, to me, is probably the hardest part about trading, right? Is, you know, if you, the more conviction you have in something, the harder it is to let go. And it's against human nature to, like, take that loss and kind of regroup and rethink about it from a clear head, you know? I was actually just talking, chatting with somebody over the weekend where they were telling me that like I guess in the March bottom last year of crypto where they sold the bottom and then bought it back like you know a day or two later like at a slightly higher price and I'm like that was the right thing to do you know what I mean oh that's that's that's I did that that was exactly me but that's the right thing to do right like that's

the beauty of like a very liquid market right like if you if you did that with real estate you wouldn't be able to get back in but like the beautiful thing about things that trade 24 hours all the time is that you could literally you could buy it and they'd like oh no that wasn't the right decision you could sell it and it costs you like 50 bips like it costs you like nothing and and so to me it's like there's nothing more important than having a clear head when you're making these really important decisions and that was something i learned like on the job um thankfully through the people that taught me and and my experience so when in your in your timeline did you cross the one million mark um uh it was

I was at some point in my 20s. You know, it was, I did really well, obviously, off the bottom in, in March of 2000, well, in September 2008, March of 2009, I did really well. And then, you know, I experienced like a hard time in my trading career in like 2014, 2015, maybe, where I gave back a lot of what I made just because the market was just very, hard to trade at that time. So I think it's time to go into the Bitcoin crypto story. So where we left this off is we saw Bitcoin around $20. You wanted to buy it, but it was too hard. What should go to $1,000? Watch it drop to $200. What happens next? And so like I just wasn't paying attention to it

afterwards, right? Like I was just like I would pay attention to it whenever like it popped up on zero hedge or the news. Like I knew what it was because like I remember the first time I read about it. I was like going down the rabbit hole for like two or three hours. I couldn't. and figure out how to buy it. And I was like, oh, like, that was it, tulips. And then in mid-2017, early 2017, Bitcoin starts getting back above $1,000. And I'm like, oh, like me as a student of price action, like, there's something here, right? Like, if price gets back above there and it's holding, like, this would be something that I'm paying attention to.

So I decided to do a deep dive. And from that deep dive, I find Ethereum. And I'm like, wow, this is even better than Bitcoin, right? Because, like, there's programmers on here. And, like, I want to go where the devs are because that's where the talent is going. And then I started going down the ICO rabbit hole. And, you know, I caught, let's say, like, the mid to late stage cycle of that. And I remember in, like, Q1 of 2018 being like, this tech is really good.

It's going to change the world. But I was, I still remembered my experience back in high school, right? where obviously the internet was going to change the world, but all valuations got ahead of themselves. So I sold anything that I had that was liquid in Q1. And I was like, I'll be back. And I'm like, it's going to take like seven to 10 years to build out blockchain tech. Because I was using the dot com parallel, right, where the 90s came like, you know,

the bubble popped in 2000. And then the internet that we really used today didn't come about to like 2010. So I was like, all right, tech is going to move a little faster. so maybe seven years. And, you know, I sold anything that I had that was liquid, and I was still keeping an eye on it from a farm. And, you know, when Jerome Powell said in March of 2020 that he was buying everything,

I wired a bunch of money over to Coinbase, did my first re-buy of crypto in like three years, and I started going back down the rabbit hole. And I was like, holy shit. Like, they built some really cool stuff, like very fast. Right? Like the first time I used Ave, I was like, this is going to change the world. And so, you know, I started listening to as many podcasts as I can. Like, that's where I found you guys and started listening to you guys as I was starting to get reacquainted with everything that I missed.

And, you know, I was yield farming and, you know, kind of like trying to figure it out. And I found NFTs in like August or September, late August, early September. And immediately they start making sense to me because I started playing Fortnite at the beginning of quarantine. So we are actually in the classes of the same era. We came into crypto around 2017. I came in. I started really paying attention in like June or August or something and then went all in in like September.

But where you had the dot-com bubble in your belt, I had nothing. And so your dot-com bubble lessons was my crypto 2017 lessons where, you know, went all in on ether at $300 in like the middle of 2017. goes up to $1,400. I'm like, wow, this is insane. Like, I'm a psych student. I had no idea that this would be like, I would have this money. And then it goes down to $600.

And I'm like, all in. And then it goes down to $400. And I'm like, all in. And then it goes down to $200. I'm like, all in. And then I goes down to $80. I'm like, well, I'm out of money. And so it's funny.

And this is why, like, everyone talks about like, oh, class of 2017, class of 2013. Now we have the class of 2020 and 2021. And like, it's kind of just like, this right of passage for so many people that don't know about money and finance to buy the top have an insane amount of conviction, not understand that like it doesn't matter about your conviction. It really matters about like market dynamics and that a lot of people make their first very big lesson into the space.

Thankfully very early, right? Like I think one of the best benefit of tailwinds that you've had is you had your very big burn at the very beginning of your career. And so you kind of kind of can understand like the highs and lows of emotions as the charts go through highs and lows. And then you have that under your belt as that you are prepared to ride future waves. Yeah. I agree. It's very interesting. Like, you know, sitting on a trading desk, like we always say, like, you know, the worst possible thing that, like, you could experience as a trader is a lot of success right out the gate, right? Because then you think, oh, you're the

smartest guy in the room, you're invincible. And then you take big risks with big amount of money, right? I'd much rather learn that lesson with a smaller amount of capital so that I'm smarter and I'm wiser when I have more capital to deploy. Do remember anything in Q1 of 2018? And for the listeners that aren't familiar, that is literally the top of the 2017-2018 bubble. Do you remember any signals that you saw? I was like, eh, this is too ridiculous. I mean, I think like just prices were going parabolic.

Everyone had a business, a white paper, right, at the time. Like, people were writing white papers left and right. And like, they were for like some of the crazy. things that I'm like that doesn't even make financial sense as like a business let alone like a token and so I just remember it just I just felt the froth you know and like I mean I remember when I sold I didn't sell everything like at around these prices but I remember that day like Bitcoin went from like 12,000 to 20,000 in like 20 minutes and I remember that day my best sale was at 16,900 and I was like oh like I was patting myself on the back and then 20,000.

seconds later, I'm like, wow, that was a terrible sale. And then like, a minute later, I was like, okay, that was a good sale, right? Like, because that's how quickly it was. And so, like, to me, it was just, it was just like the panic of masses. And, you know, I've seen that type of hysteria in stocks, you know, just trading for for so long, you know, obviously on shorter timeframes. But to me, it's like, all right, this is where you sell and then you figure out where you're going to buy back. Yeah. People these days that have been. in the markets this last two years, we have not seen anything close to the blow off top that was Bitcoin from 14 to 20K. It happened in like, I think, under 36 hours. I went up from 14 to 20,

hung around like 20K for like four or five hours and then dropped down to 14, like, you know, just 10, 12, 13 hours later. It was absolutely insane. And then the worst part about it is that like the rest of the market kept on going. And so like ether topped out like two or three weeks. weeks later in slightly a more sustainable fashion. Like it was over $1,000 for like three or four days. And then the altcoin wave just like pumped right after it. The most like vigorous pump I have seen across the board of all time. And that was, it was just like fireworks. It was like Bitcoin was the first firework. Ethereum was the next big firework. Then all of these altcoins started popping off. And then like after that over the next like six months, you just saw ashes, just ashes and ashes just

like falling from the sky. It was, it's one of the most surreal moments I've ever seen. Yeah, yeah, you know, and it's really interesting because I'm like, you know, to me, like, what's different this cycle than was different than me last cycle? Because I, you know, I met a lot of people that stuck in through the bear market that are doing obviously great now because they were grinding it out through the bare market. And like to me, it's like I always thought blockchain tech was real, but I thought it was like a decade away, right? And I had a business trading equities where I was like, all right, do I want to sit there and struggle for the next 10 years for the tech to get bought? or, you know, should I go back to my bread and butter, and then I'll come back when I think it's mature enough. And, you know, like, obviously to everybody's credit, like, you know, stuff got built very quickly. And so, like, I sit here and I look at NFTs and I'm like, this is very much the same dynamic.

The market's definitely going to get it head of itself, right? I don't know if it's there yet or if we're about to get there or if it happened. But I know just by the nature of markets, that's what happens. So, but to me, it's like, all right, at most, you know, if we, if we, if we're about to be, if we're about to we were to enter a bare market today, it's like at most, I would think it lasts two years, right? And so because we're just iterating so fast, things are being built so quickly. And I think I can make a case personally that like it would happen faster because this is so consumer facing, right? And as adoption increases, it just hits that Lindy effect faster. So to me, I'm like,

I'm much more willing to pivot and go into the space full time because to me it feels much closer and much more real than like a lot of what I thought there was like a ton of vaporware at the time. And that's a trade in of itself too, right? And like not only is it a trade of your money, but it's also a trade of your time and attention. And so like what you're saying is like, oh, I'm ready to put two years, two plus years of my life on the table, even if we go through a bear market because would you say, I mean, maybe hindsight is 2020, but like going and missing the bear market of 2018 to 2019 and being present during that time, do you think like missing that is a mistake. Like, do you wish you who had been there or do you think it was like a good move to like tap out?

No, I think it was a good move for me because I just, I didn't know how long it would be. So I was, I much rather would go to where I let's say had a more secure source of revenue. And, you know, but like I've seen I have friends that I made last cycle that, you know, are crushing at this cycle because they stuck around. And I'm like, all right, cool. I mean, everybody says, you know, everyone says that, you know, you make your money in the bare market. That's very true, right? Like you sit there, you grind it out. You work with people that are really building in the space and you know, you align yourselves with them and you guys are building great stuff together. So like to me, I don't regret it, but it's like a lesson that I'm like, okay, like this next bear cycle, like I'm going to be around.

Like I'm going to stick around because I know like the things that need to get built that are important to get built because like we're over here fighting for like self sovereignty and like the open metaverse. And like we all know what the alternative is. And like, none of us want that for ourselves or our grandchildren, right? Yeah. So when you said Jerome Powell started buying everything, that triggered your brain to rethink about crypto. Can you just walk us through the calculus that you were making in that moment? Yeah. So, I mean, basically, here we are about like two, three weeks into COVID.

You know, the market's in free fall. As a trader, I'm, you know, making a ton of money because the volatility is obviously really good. And all of a sudden, you know, the Fed does a press conference. I think it was like March 28th or 29th. It might have been March or April. But I don't remember exactly, but I remember he basically said he was going to be buying. They were going to be buying a ton of corporate bonds. And I was my first thought was like buy gold, right?

But then it's like what's a better bet? Like if I'm buying gold, like what has more leverage Bitcoin? What has more leverage than Bitcoin, Eith? And so like I immediately just went. I'm like, all right, why are money to Coinbase buy as much ETH as I can? And, you know, like hang on for the ride because we're about. to put the money printers on. And, you know, obviously, like, that's what's happened over the last year and a half.

That's interesting. Yeah. So, Ether was at this time, I mean, at the low of March, it was like $80. It was probably around, like, somewhere like 150 to 200 when you were looking at it right then. Yeah. I think it was, like, high hundreds, maybe low 200s around there. Yeah. Well, congrats on that trade.

And I think that's a really emblematic of, like, what it means to be a good, generalized investor. Again, you made the call on Apple. You shorted the housing market, bought gold after the fact. And it's just another interesting story of you being able to just look at the broad current context, the broad zeitgeist of what's going on and like look around and yeah, I think that's a great calculus. Well, gold's the obvious choice. But like what's the slightly more risky but also like better gold and like and then he just recurses down to Ethereum. Because like my whole my thought process and like this was the same thought process I had when I into NFTs was like what's going to give me the most leverage if I'm right right like if we all have

the same trade on like then like I want to make the most amount of money for the risk that I'm taking like me buying the S&P 500 of course I would have done well but it's a much safer bet right like but if I'm going to be sitting there risking that we're going to be printing a ton of money like how far out on the risk curve and I guess this goes back to like my risk tolerance is like I'm willing to go far out on the risk curve because I'm like all right well I know I have this app. these assets in this basket in my safe basket. And then these are the assets where I'm like, okay, like let's, you know, let's sit there and, and try to make a bunch of money with it. So when you got back into Ethereum, back into crypto in the March Trough, was that a trade?

Or did you start really like doing some research and just getting caught, catching yourself up to speed? What was that like? So yeah. So it started me getting caught back up to speed. But I also had like a couple of projects that I invested in in the 20, 17 cycle that we're starting to unlock. So, you know, as they're starting to unlock, they're like, okay, like, what wallets do we send, we send your tokens to? And then, you know, I start researching on them. And then, you know, like, it's so funny. I had a wallet that I hadn't opened in a while. And I had SNX in the wallet. And I'm like, you synthetic? Yeah. And I was like, you bought Haven in 2017. And so I was like, I don't know what this is. I'm like, I don't know what this is.

I haven't, I haven't kept up with any of this. So I sold it. And I sold it. I think. like three days before I got listed on Binance. So like I sold it before it started Mooney. And but like, but I was very grateful because like at the very least, I was like, whoa, like here's a bunch of tokens that I thought were worthless that are actually worth like a good amount. And I converted to Ethereum because I knew what ETH was. I didn't know what SNX was.

And I was just starting to go back down the rabbit hole. And like, you know, like as like, you know, when things are going up in price, you know, you start getting more interested. And then, you know, I started talking to my friends. that stuck around and they were telling me, oh, listen to this, you know, listen to this podcast, you know, talk to this guy, follow this person. And, you know, I was just kind of yield farming and just kind of just following people that I thought were smart. Like, I got rugged in sushi. You know, like, I was yield farming sushi and I got rugged. And so like, but to me,

it's like a learning experience, right? Like, I was, you know, I was trading in the mornings. I was trading equities. And then I'd be done by like 11 a.m. And probably for the next like 12 to 15 hours, I'd be reading about defy and listening to podcasts and like just trying to understand because I knew I had a lot to catch up on. Yeah. So you came into Ethereum right before DeFi Summer, which is literally the perfect time to get into Ethereum. So as somebody that's been following just financial markets for all of his life, what did

DeFi Summer look like? Because, I mean, for somebody in crypto is like, oh, we're doing a new weird thing. Okay, that's great. But like from a, I think from a more grounded financial perspective, DFI summer might be kind of surreal. What was DFI summer like for you? So, you know, I was playing with like a small amount because I was like, all right, like, you know, if I can like, you know, three X or five X like this stack, then like, you know, I can put myself in a position.

And I like, I very much was like, all right, everything that I had in the space that I, let's say like the synthetics and like a couple other tokens, I'm like, all right, that's going to be like what I build off of, right? Like I had like the amount that I bought in March, that was kind of like my safe, my safe stack in in this risky asset, but I wasn't going to be risking all of that. And so I was just like relearning. I think one of my things that I'm really good at is understanding that I don't know everything and that I'm willing to learn and that there's not just one way to make money. Right. So it's like if I see people like I'm not, I guess your typical finance pro that's like, oh yeah, like there's a.

like there's only one way to get rich and there's only one way to make money in public markets is I'm like, well, if I see a lot of people making money, like, I'd be an idiot to not try to find out how, right? And just understand the mechanics of how that works. And, you know, understanding that I can learn from like anybody, whether, even if they're younger than me, like, that doesn't mean that I'm smarter than them, right? Like, it's like there's a lot of people in the world that are much younger than me, that are much smarter than I am that I can definitely learn from. And that, like, when I was approaching defy summer i was just like again reading as much content as i could get into a pool ask people questions and then kind of learn by doing because that's you know i like sometimes i would

read these medium posts and i'm like i that was chinese to me like i have no idea what this person saying but then if i put like 10 000 at risk like i start figuring it out real quick right because i i don't want to lose that money so it's like you know like how how do i minimize risk and it was like very much a learning process. I knew that I was, I didn't have like the best edge because, you know, people that understood the medium posts that understood code and how to read the code,

like before something launches, they understood the risks way before the night, way before I would, right? And like, you know, if there was the chance of a rugpole, like, you know,

all these things. And so like to me, I knew I was fighting an uphill battle, but like there was money to be made and I, it was very much a learning experience that like, I'm super grateful for it because again, it was like, I learned by doing. And I think like all of us is like, you know, we cut our teeth on on these things. Like, like, I wear that rugpole with pride.

Like, um, you know, I was, I think I was involved in that one. And I think it was called Eminence that, that, that, um, that right. Andre one or it might have gotten out like right before the rug pull. Like, but like just, you know, like I, even if I get caught in these things, I'm not, I'm not like, oh, like, you know, fuck Dify. Like, it's like, no, like, that's part of the learning. process, right? Like, it's, you know, if money was free, like, then everybody, everybody, getting rich doing it. It's like, it's nothing, nothing in life is free like that.

While you were going through Defy summer, was there any, like, thoughts in the back of your head, like, hmm, this is unsustainable, this is frothy, anything like that? No, because I think that, uh, to me, it's, I mean, this is like, this technology is so crazy. Like, dude, the first time I used Avey, I posted my ethos collateral and I got a loan against it in five minutes because I was just using it for the first time, and I didn't have to post any K-YC. And I'm like, dude, this is going to change the world. And I would tell my friends and Trabi, and they were like, I don't get it. What's the point? I'm like, have you ever, have you ever tried getting a mortgage? Like, you know, like, it takes weeks. And they ask you

so much, so many invasive questions. And all that is, that's just a collateralized loan. So it's like this, like, to me, this is like such revolutionary technology. that I'm like, you know, I'm one of the first, you know, let's say million people that are using it that know it exists. Like, and there's billions of people on the planet. Like, this is going to be such like, you know, 10, 20 years from now. This is going to be such proliferating technology that like, even if it is bubbly now, like it long term, that's like, you know, like investing in Amazon during the dot com bubble, right?

Like, it got real frothy. And I think it reached the high of like $90 or something. And this is like before the splits that it's had. And here we are 20 years later. And, you know, it's multiples of that, right? So, like, to me, like, the tech is real. How have you gone and balanced your crypto portfolio between, like, Ether and, like, the DeFi token, specifically in this phase of the timeline? When, like, you've gone through markets where it's almost impossible to, like, actually price end fundamentals.

Like, the dot-com bubble, you can't price fundamentals there. Defi summer can't really price. in fundamentals, not really. Like, you can kind of see adoption, but you can kind of see usage. But that's about it. So when you're balancing like defy tokens and ether, how did you elect to choose the allocations that you've chosen? Yeah.

I mean, I think that like to me it's like because I, and it runs in different points in each cycle. I think that like I understand momentum because I've been a trader. So I understand like when momentum's high and you should be in higher beta assets. and when momentum is low, you should be in like the safer assets. I guess one of the ways I've worked on portfolio allocation is I don't use leverage. I use very, very little leverage. Like maybe I'll use it for a trade here and there for like a couple weeks or a month,

but I'm quick to pay it off. And like as soon as like a drawdown starts, I just go straight to like no loans, right? Because like to me and like I don't go to cash. Like I don't go to USDC. Like I'll just go to Eath or, you know, I'm like, all right, Well, has the story changed? No. Am I still bullish on it?

Yes. All right, cool. Like, hold it. Right. Like, you know, over the long term, like, I think prices will be higher. And that's, like, to me, like, I slept the best, like being in crypto, even with all this vault because I don't use leverage. Right. So it's like when these downloads are happening, I'm not worried about getting liquidated.

I'm not worrying about having a post collateral. And I'm just like, well, has the narrative changed? No. All right. Stay long. Right. And like that to me has been like how I've approached the space. And that's probably what kept you in the space even after a defy summer kind of came to a pretty quick end. Right. Like it ended as soon as ether started moving because during defy summer there was that phase like, oh, it's the defy tokens that capture value.

Ether doesn't do anything. Then ether moons finally. And then that was the end of DTI summer then and everything died. Hey guys, I hope you're enjoying the conversation with G money thus far. In the second half of the show, we get more in depth into the world of NFTs because G Money, of course, is a prolific NFT person. And then we also get into the legacy that G Money wants to leave behind. Now that he is in this world, now that he is, you know, one of the most successful NFT curators around, what does G Money want to do with himself? So that was a fantastic question. And overall, had a broader conversation about the culture of crypto and how it's

meaningfully different than the culture of TradFi. And so let's go ahead and get right into that second half of the show. But first, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors. sponsors that make the show possible. Gemini is the world's most trusted cryptocurrency exchange. I've been a customer of Gemini since I first got into crypto in 2017, and it's been my main exchange of choice to make my crypto buys and sells. Gemini is available in all 50 states and in over 50 countries worldwide, and on Gemini,

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That's exactly what we did to get Uniswap to be a sponsor for bankless, and you can do the same for your project. Thank you Uniswap for sponsoring bankless. So what kept you going? What captured your attention after the end of Defi Summer? I think this is when we get into the story of NFTs. So, you know, I remember all throughout Defi Summer, I'd see on Twitter where people like NFTs are like the next big thing. And I didn't have time because like I was still like, you know, I'm learning about sushi, learning about Wi-Fi. And, you know, I'm like, well, these things are mooting so hard. Like, I don't even have time to figure out what NFTs are. And then when, when DeFi Summer calmed down, I'm like, all right, finally like, I had it written down. I'm like,

NFTs. And when it calmed down, I finally started going down the defy rap, the NFT rabbit hole. And it started making sense to me right away because on the first day of quarantine, I started playing, I bought a PlayStation. I hadn't played a video game in 10 years. I download Fortnite. I start playing with my friends and their nephews. And this one kid, first game we play, 12 years old, he goes, what skins did you buy? And I'm like, skins like, they don't give me any special powers. I'm not buying, this game is free to play. I'm not spending any money on this game. I'm like 30 years old, right? Like, you know, and so. I'm here to pass time. Yeah. I'm here. I'm here to not go crazy during quarantine. And so I sit there and I realize that,

you know, first off, in like one or two weeks, I start buying a bunch of skins. And I see, like, whenever I play with with these kids, like, they switch their skins every, every game, which is, let's say, like, every 10 to 20 minutes. Like, that's like, in. outfit change. That's literally like you during the course of this conversation, going into your bathroom, changing and coming out three different times. So I'm like, there's going to be this massive super cycle here that that kid's 12 years old right now. 10 years from now, he's going to be, he's going to have his own discretionary income and he's going to be totally okay with the idea of owning something as a purely digital form. And so I'm like, there's this super cycle here. I don't

know how to take advantage of it because at the time I don't know what NFTs are. And I'm like thinking, I'm like, all right, maybe Roblox or like Minecraft, like maybe do something with those and like try to figure out a way to monetize. But really I was just like looking for a publicly trade at the time Roblox wasn't public. So I was looking for like a publicly traded vehicle to do that. And then finally in September I find NFTs and I'm like, holy shit. Like this is your skin on Twitter and discord. And this is how people are going to want to portray themselves.

And you know, like to me it just made so much sense. and I started going down the rabbit hole. And, you know, when I, you know, I heard about punks really early on. And I think, like, the floor might have been, like, $700 or $1,000 at that point. And I was like, no, punks are too expensive. I want to find the next punks. And I start going down the rabbit hole. And as I'm hanging out in a lot of these discords, you know, I just realized that, like,

punks are the next punks. And that's when, you know, I bought a zombie and I was waiting for the ape. And, you know, because, like, I noticed that the. People in the space, especially at that time that were the most knowledgeable, generally had crypto punks as their avatars. So I was like, oh, like, you know, what does this say? Like, this says that you're successful. This says that you understand NFTs.

It says that you've been around a while. So, like, to me, I was like, it's very much like an in-world flex, right? Like, for the same reason that, like, if I meet you, I won't tell you how much money I made last year. But if I'm wearing a nice watch, you kind of, that's kind of, you kind of know. Right. Yeah. You need to, that tells you everything you need to know.

without me having to say it. And so my thesis was that humans were going to be humans, whether they were interacting face to face or behind computer screens. And that's really where like the punk's thesis really made sense to me, where last cycle I remember everybody was like, when Lambo, when Lambo. And I was like, I think at the end of this cycle, it's going to be when punk.

And that's really why, you know, I wrote that thread. I bought, I bought those punks. And, you know, I think I poured a lot of gasoline on that fire. Yeah, what struck me when you were talking about playing Fortnite with these kids, like, wearing these skins. And, like, you did get it. And, like, everyone's going to be wearing a skin in the future. Everyone's wearing it on Twitter. Everyone's wearing on Discord. You, I'm talking to you wearing your skin right now on Zoom. Like, I'm seeing the skin happen. And I'm guessing it maybe it's not this easy right now. But in the future, you could press a button and put on a different punk or a different NFT, right?

Yeah, for sure. You know, and I think, like, a lot of people are working. Because you already see it on Twitter, right? Where people will change, like, the people will change, like, the depending on the project that they, you know, maybe they just minted or they want to support. It's like, you know, listen, not everybody, unless you're Steve Jobs, not everybody wears the same clothes every day, right? So it's like, you know, you want to express yourself differently. Right. I'm drawing a lot of connections to this part of your career, back all the way back to you noticing everyone wearing Apple headphones on the subway, right? Like, but it's a little bit different where if everyone's wearing Apple headphones on the subway, everyone is already buying

Apple products. But what you connected is all these kids playing Fortnite and then the NFT, mania, or not mania, but like NFT adoption. And so like one was actually like reactive, like, oh, I'm seeing Apple sell a bunch of products. One's a lot like proactive where like, oh, I'm seeing kids skins in Fortnite. And then there are these like digital skin things. Maybe this is just like a story of you just getting better at noticing patterns. But any like insight or comments you want to add to that? Yeah, I think it's probably me just getting better at noticing patterns over time.

I'd like to think I have more wisdom at this point. than I did 20 years ago. And I just seeing like the super cycle, right? Like, you know, and I started asking, like, last year, like, I would start asking all my friends that had kids. I'd be like, well, what do they play? What do they ask for? Like, because I remember when I was a kid, like, I'd go to Toys R Us and be like, oh, I want this toy. And these kids are asking for, like, V bucks.

And like, you know, whatever it is, the in-game currency for whatever game that they're playing. And it's like, I would ask the parents, like, what are, what's the stuff that these kids are interested in? And I just noticed more and more that it's very digital, like digital-based assets. So to me, it's like, okay, that kid, you know, can't afford this today. But at some point in the future, he will be okay with affordiness, right? Like, whenever I have these conversations about describing an NFT, like, the people that have the hardest time understanding it are over the age of 40. The people that get it right away are, like, when I explain it to a teenager, they're like,

that is awesome. How can I do it? And like, I've seen my friends, my friends' kids. that are like 14-15, like become like their NFT person, right? Like they're they're the ones that are minting. They're the ones that are buying and trading and doing all this stuff. And because they just innately understand it because they've grown up with technology their entire lives.

So like to me, it's like, yeah, like as these people spend more time in front of a screen, like they're going to be spending more money on that too. So there's two other Layer Zero podcast that I've done that I see a lot of patterns with this story. is with Eric Connor, who, like you, went to university for finance or business, and then started working at a bank right after, right during like 2008, actually started working at a bank. And then he got into the world of crypto and Ethereum was generally a pretty good trader or

understanding the psychology of markets. And then he got into NFTs, and that's kind of like where he like prefers to be now. And then same thing with DC investor, a very similar timeline with you, which is the layers year I did last week, which is watch the early days of the internet also was very knowledge knowledgeable investing and now kind of only cares about, not only, but like really cares about NFTs. Like he's kind of like the NFT guy. Do you have any insights about like why people seem to converge upon like the NFT markets, the NFT game? Well, I mean, I think a lot of it has to do with like the thing that really interests me about the NFT market is that I really do think that NFTs are the

Trojan horse for crypto to go mainstream. So when I look at that and like, you know, like last summer I I was involved in Defy, but like it's difficult. You know what I mean? Like it's, you know, you have to, not everybody wants to play a money game where, you know, you're going to get a high API, but then like you need to worry about like, you know, the coin going down. And like it's a difficult game to play. But like everybody inherently understands what collecting something is like, right?

Like what artwork is like. So to me, like when I see consumer adoption, like it literally is like it comes from NFTs. So that makes me way more. excited about NFTs than crypto in general, because I think, I think we, you can probably agree is that the way we get mainstream adoption is when people don't even know that they're using crypto, right? And I think NFTs are the way that that happens. So that's why I'm super excited about NFTs. I think that makes a ton of sense, right? And the NFTs just have that surface area for adoption, right? Like, you're not supposed to like every single NFT. You're supposed to like the

NFTs that you like. But as an investment vehicle, there's a difference there where like NFTs, they're going to be a bigillion NFTs, right? We're going to mean one NFT per interest that there is. So as like an asset class, I kind of think it makes NFTs really, really hard to invest in because like on the other side of things, like there's just ether. There's just one ether, right? Like, do you believe in Ethereum? Oh, you buy ether. Do you believe in NFTs? Oh, which one do you want? And so like actually getting broad exposure to NFTs, I think is, is kind of hard. And so maybe the answer, like, that's why there's like this fat crypto punk thesis, right? It's like, well,

Cryptopunks might track the NFT market at large just because they are the OG NFT. Do you have any thoughts on like how to actually gain exposure to NFTs when the whole thing is supposed to be like fragmented? Yeah. So, I mean, I think that's why I think I always try to red pill people on punks and squiggles and like other like triple A blue chip assets. Because to me it's like, all right, if you don't want to do that much work and you want to get involved, like, you know, buy the creme de la crap, right? If you want to go down the rabbit hole, you can go down the rabbit hole as much as you want. But like much like in art, right? Like there's a billion pieces of art that are made every year, but not all art accrues value,

you know, the same thing with like sports cards or or anything that's made. There are certain things that accrue value because people covet it and people want it. And that's where the value of accrual goes. So like, to me, it's like no different than investing in like the art market or some other like high-end asset, you just need to do more work, right? Like, but I do think that and you're starting to see it already where index funds are being made to track, you know, certain projects so that it just becomes as easy as owning like an ETF, right? Like where it's like, okay, I just want exposure to NFTs.

Like I just buy this token and that gives me exposure to these nine or 10 different projects, right? Either through fractionalization or through outright ownership in the treasury. So, like, it's definitely not easy. Like, I think the fact that people have made a ton of money in the last year makes it seem like it's easy. But, you know, I firmly believe, like, nothing is that easy in life. So it's like you need to do your homework and, you know, do your own research, as people

always say. Right. Do you think chromies have as much, like, value capture accrual as punks or cromies squiggles specifically or in that ballpark? Or is it really just like punks are the lead and that's kind of it? Yeah, no, I think punks are like number one. I think squiggles are up there because, you know, you look at art blocks as a platform and what it's been able to do in the space. It probably has one of the best communities in the space.

Snowfro himself is like an OG punk holder that claimed crypto punks on the day they were released. And so like to me, it's like they will be historically significant, right? Like as I start talking to more and more people from the contemporary art world, I always find it interesting how a lot of them can resonate with Chrome. squiggles more so than they can with punks. And so, like, you know, to me, it's like, all right, if these people will be coming into the space, especially with like the price is way less than than what a punk is, like they'll probably start allocating more money towards squiggles. And so to me, I put squiggles up there. It's, it's snow froze, Genesis piece. It's an ode to punks. And I think art blocks is going to be a historically significant platform, especially in the

generative art space. So, you know, I like squiggles. for that reason. Yeah, for me, the squiggles are fun just because they're like the perfect level of nihilism. It's like pretty nihil. It's like, oh, a cromy squiggle that's going for like $50,000. That's kind of weird. But also there is some art there as well, right? Like, you know, it's colorful. It's got a shape. There is some art there. But then it also has like a kind of a, the sticking power of punks because cromy squiggles are like the first art blocks project, right? And so like first art block projects, perfectly like balanced nihilism and then also some cool colors that like I could see myself having my cromies griggle on my wall somewhere. Like metal cut out print. Like I would do that.

And that's kind of like how I think about a lot of like the art blocks art that I look at. Like could I see that on my wall? And that's how personally I value these things. And I think that's the right way to do it. Right. Like that's what people always say when you buy art, buy art that you like not you like when the second you're in it to try to make money, then, you know, like you're going to lose. Right. Like I missed out on board apes because I was like, ah, I don't really, I don't really like the art. you know was that that was a bad financial decision but i didn't want to buy something that i wasn't going to be like all right i'm proud to own this the cool thing that i think about the nfts market and i think why people end up not everyone but a lot of people end up gravitating towards the

nfti world is there's a much larger sense of community and culture in the nfti market than there is in like tradfi right like sweet you made the calls on apple but like did you make any friends along the way right like with nfts like there's a lot of culture along with that Tell us about the culture side of things that you've been able to experience with NFTs. Yeah, I mean, just the community, like, you know, the number. I know everyone says in it's so cliche, but like when I first got into the space, people would be like, oh, like, you know, like you should look at this. You should look at that.

And it wasn't like, I feel like sometimes you would get in Defi where like somebody's trying to show you something because they want to dump on you. Like this was more like, no, like this is like, Snowfrow was the guy that redpilled me on punks, right? And he was like, dude, like, you need. to buy a zombie, like, you're spending so much money in the space. Like, this is like the creme de la creme. And I was like, really? And like, you know, he spent like two days explaining it to me why, why I needed a zombie and why I needed a punk, but specifically like an elite, an elite tier punk.

And like, you know, it's just like that that helpful attitude. Like I made, I've made so many friends that like I've met in the last three, four months for the first time that, you know, it, like, it's really heartwarming where these people that I've spoke. to online every day for like six months prior or a year prior and we meet for the first time like one of my buddies picked me up from the airport I had no idea what you look like we're sitting there DMing on Twitter and being like yo what what do you look like what are you wearing yeah what are you wearing what are you have like and like but yeah when we met each other we gave each other like this biggest hug like you know like long lost friends that haven't seen each other in 10 years and it was like

yo dude like you know we made it right like we're fucking we're doing great and And I don't know. Like I never, I never experienced that, obviously, in the stock market, even, you know, running a trading desk, trading side by side with people every day. There's something about the community of all doing it together and building all these things from scratch that I think, like, really resonates with people. Is there any advice that you have for people who want similar experiences? How did you find your friends? How did they find you? Was it just like being in Discord?

What's the process of establishing relationships that you found? Yeah. So the best is like interacting with people, like interact with people as much as you can. Go to the discords of the projects you like. You're going to find people that like, just like in real life, right? Like you find your people that you gravitate towards. And the same thing is going to happen online, right? Like a lot of like I was super active in the punk's discord really early on, our blocks.

And then like, you know, then you start having conversations with people on the side. And you're like, oh, like, then you start doing deals with these people. And like, and then those friendships. build over time. The same thing with Twitter, just interacting with people and you're going to find your tribe, right? Like I firmly believe that the more you put yourself out there, the more you'll find the people that like are like you that you want to be associated with. And that to me is like, it's funny because like a lot of projects will be like, oh, hey, like, you know, can you help with marketing? I'm like, you don't even want that, right? Like, just go out there and interact with

people on Twitter and, you know, be active in discords because the people that will like your artwork will find you, right? Like, you don't want to have to sell your stuff because you're trying to sell it, right? Like, you want people to buy it because it resonates with them. And, like, you know, Twitter is probably the best free marketing that you could get, you know, organic, right? That people will see your stuff. Making a name for yourself in the punk discord is, like, kind of difficult because that thing is so active and there's so many people there. And yeah, there are definitely like the people they are on a reoccurring basis. What about actually trying to like stand out from the crowd in Discord as like,

oh, this person has valid interesting contributions to the discourse versus, you know, just the bots that are there? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, anytime you add value, whether it's in Discord, telegram, Twitter, like, people will find you. I think that, you know, one of the reasons it was, let's say, easier for me to build a brand was because when I did what I did and I wrote my thread about it, nobody was really, people were calling me an idiot, right? Like for spending six figures on a picture, and here we are today where people spending

seven, eight figures on JPEGs, right? And so I think that, you know, the more value add, the more people will see it. And you'll find your tribe that way. And, you know, it's very much like the Gary V mentality where it's like, you know, you work and you put your stuff out there and people will find you because there will be people that want to listen to what you have to say. Not everybody will necessarily have to want to listen to what you have to say, but you'll find the people that want to be part of your community and that want to interact with you and add value to you the way you add value to them. So what's next for G Money's

NFT portfolio? Do you have any like big plans as to like what to do with the damn thing? You know, I'm still, I'm still holding. I'm not necessarily minting as I'm not an active minter. You know, I'll do stuff every once a while. I like, I think that like I own some of the best assets in NFTs. So for me to want to sell them. And I know 65, 29 says this all the time is like, don't sell the institutions, your JPEGs. Like, I agree.

You know, like, if you sell some, fuck them. Yeah. Like, if you, but like, the thing is, like, if you sell a grail of something, right? And like, like, if you were to sell your punk, like, there's no way. It'd be very, it'd be very unlikely that you could buy your punk back at a lower price. Like, if you were to try to buy it back, you'd have. have to buy it as significantly higher premium if you want that exact punk now if you don't care then that's fine you can buy a different punk that's similar but not exactly but it's like these

things are all one of a kind so to me i i want to hold on to these things because i do think that you know if if crypto does what we all here that are here in the movement right now think that it's going to do then you're talking about some of the most you know grail pieces of the next hundred years so like why do i want to sell that for what i think will be pennies on the dollar So that's a great perspective, but I was actually interested in how your NFT curation will manifest in like the Metaverse or the physical world. Are you going to like make some sort of digital gallery? Like because if you're going to hold these things for life, like you need to display them somehow. Oh, yeah.

So what are the displaying plans for G Money's NFT portfolio? So I'm figuring out how to get a digital display in in my house. I don't have as much wall space as I like. So I'm trying to figure out where to put it. But then also, like, you know, there's a couple digital galleries that I want to be setting up. I've just been taking my time on it because, you know, I know that like we're not fully immersed in the metaverse just yet. So I know it's not like I need to rush out and show them off, right? Like even like my open like my open sea wallet, like anybody can check.

And people like, oh, like I love this collection. I love that collection. It's like, all right. Like I don't need to. I'm not necessarily focused on curating my collection just yet because I'm still like the accumulation phase. because I know that the curation and the showing it off part will come soon. And I know when that comes, I'll be right there at the forefront with it. But to me, it's like I don't, it's not, to me, there's no huge rush to go out and do it.

But it's something that like I'm actively thinking about. You say that you're still in the, the curation collection phase. What about your NFT portfolio do you think is missing that you're really looking for? Like, what are you on the hunt for? I mean, I guess maybe someone on one. I love an ex copy, probably like my biggest miss is not buying an ex copy when I could have. And now, like, they're just super price very high. And then just like kind of like, you know, I love like, I love bringing artists into the space.

Like Justin Arrasano is a great story where I helped bring them into the space and then just watch. That was you. Yeah, like I was, he, I mean, it's he hit me up because I either heard me in a clubhouse or he saw me posted on an Instagram that I bought the ape for 150K. And he originally wanted to sell me his entire collection of Twin Flames for 100,000. And I was like, dude, like keep the physicals, break it up into 100 pieces and sell them for a thousand bucks each. And I thought I was going to hear from him in like two or three months. And he like calls me back in three days. Like I sold them all. Like, thank you. Like you changed my life. And then he started going down the rabbit

hole. And, you know, obviously has done incredible things for the space. He's He's done incredible things for his own personal career. And like I'm super happy. Like to me, that's one of my great, like, that's one of my proudest moments in the space of being able to onboard somebody that has had such a huge impact on the space themselves. Actually, I had the fortune to actually get dinner with Justin in New York, the first day I was in there.

And that man just exudes kindness. He just very, very concerned for the world and wants to see the world become a better place. Yep. And also has dope photography skills. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's like, it's incredible. And like everything that he's done for the space and, you know, he always wants to connect with people.

And, you know, he's a connector himself. And like, I'm just, I'm so happy that he's part of the space and able to do what he's been doing. Because to me, he's probably the best, the best community builder in crypto with what he's been able to do in such a short amount of time. Totally. Absolutely. One perspective I'd like to get out of you is like there's, especially in crypto, crypto has this very powerful force of like making people never feel like that that they have enough. And you also have to play the game. Like we're in the world of scarcity technology and scarcity technology puts in scarcity mindsets about people. And you say like you're still into, like, you know, collecting your

NFT portfolio, your portfolio's not done. Do you ever have like a vision of the future where you're like, you know, I'm done. I did it. This is where I've wanted to always be. And now I'm here. Like, is that a destination or does that place not even exist? So I kind of feel like I'm already there. Right. Like I think that it's, it's funny you mentioned the scarcity mindset because I think from, from really early on, humans in general are taught the scarcity mindset. Like, that's survival, right? And I don't know when it happened exactly for me, but it, it, there's something that switched from being a scarcity mindset to an abundance mindset that really was like, okay, like, you know, how can I pay it forward? Not every interaction should be so transactional where like, if you get something, I get something, right? Like there could, there's, there's, there's, exists a world where I can help you and I don't expect anything in return, you know, and I guess coming from finance, which is very much a zero-sum game, I lived, I lived and breathed that scarcity mindset for 20 years professionally. And so, you know, like I always had like a number that I wanted to hit that, you know, I'm like, oh, if I hit this, like, I'm going to take my foot off the gas.

And I hit that number and I like, I crushed that number. And like now I'm sitting here, it's like, okay, so now that like, you know, for all intents and purposes, money isn't as big of an issue for me anymore, like, what do I want? And it's like, I want to increase adoption of NFTs because if I can help increase adoption of NFTs, then that increases adoption of crypto, which gets us to the future that I think we deserve of self-sovereignty, right? And so to me, it's more so about like, what can I do to push the space forward? It's not so much about that scarcity mindset of like, oh, how can I hoard more? How can I make more money?

The money is great because it helps you get to the vision and it gives me the means to help achieve that vision. But like, it's no longer necessarily just about the money for me, which, you know, if you told me that 10 years ago, I would have called you crazy. But like, it's amazing being able to see that transformation in myself, but then see it throughout the space with a lot of people that are like, oh, yeah, like, I don't need to work, but I'm working my ass off. because, like, I want a better future for humanity, right?

And, like, to me, like, crypto is probably one of the best, like, the best way to leverage your time to have, like, an impact on humanity, like, 10, 20, 30 years from now. I think one of the best reasons why I truly resonate with crypto is that Kevin O'Walky gives this line, like, crypto wasn't meant to make you rich. It was meant to make you free. And wealth is a part of freedom, right? Like, you need wealth to have freedom, but wealth doesn't necessarily give you freedom. you need all the other things properties that give you freedom as well. And I think one of the best things about crypto is that like it allows a lot of people to go from the scarcity mindset into this abundance mindset.

But then the next step after that, once you are in the abundance mindset, if you still want to pump your bags, the way that that works is you also carry along people who are still in that scarcity mindset and then also get them into the abundance mindset. And that's just the simple nature of a positive some game. We're like, hey, I have enough. But if I want this to go up, I need other people to have enough as well, right? They also need to come with us. And that culture is something that I don't think that you find in TradFai, right?

And one of the most underappreciated properties of crypto is we can export our culture to the world that needs it the most. Yeah, no, I totally agree. That was really well said. I agree with everything, right? Like it's, and it's funny because like I'm sure you, I don't know, can you pinpoint that, that where that shift happened for you? Yeah, it happened around like the 2000 to 3,000 ether price where I stopped caring about the grind. It's like, oh, like, I need to make sure I'm on the next wave. Like, I need to capture all.

And at some point, I was like, I wore a shake of our shirts to middle school. And so like I have like this very much like, I was like, oh yeah, capitalism is evil, blah, blah, blah, blah. Very much like learned the error of my ways and like now appreciate capitalism for what it is. and now I'm just like the grind of the psychological stress of like the scarcity mindset I was just turned off from and so like I remember going through 2017 like trading 50 times a day like learning about a token buying that token learning about a new token selling the old token buying a new token like hopping from token token token and then in this new bull market I very much learned that like not only does not doing that like ease off a bunch of stress but I also make more money by not trading away into impulse right and so like having a much slower mindset and like having a much longer term thinking has helped me have just a broader perspective. And I think that that longer term mindset turned into like, hey, this is not about like me catching every single wave.

This is me exporting the values in the culture as much as possible. Because again, the best way I'm going to be able to pump my own bags is to get as many people into crypto as possible. Yeah. No. And that's like a great, a great thought, right? Because like I sit there and like, I, dude, I don't check the. price of crypto like that much anymore.

You know what I mean? It's like the times like I think yesterday like we made in or two days ago, we mean an all time high in Bitcoin. I was like, oh, I'm like, cool. Like I had no idea, right? Because I'm just so busy on like, all right, what's my mission? How do I export that culture to other people? Because that increases adoption, right?

And that's kind of what my main goal is. And you know, if like you said, like if by doing that, the value of my portfolio goes up, great. but like I do know that ultimately long term, the value of the portfolio will go up. So that will take care of itself as long as I'm doing my job, right? Yeah. I'm a big fan of not having any stress these days. Yeah.

And like being zen about the markets is definitely key for that. Gee, when we go and fast forward 10, 20, 30 years in the future, what do you want the legacy of G money to look like? Just somebody that pushed the NFT space forward that help people understand that like everything in the real world is an NFT. and as we go more digital, the way to that self-sovereignty is through decentralized systems so that we're not slaves to any overlord or anything down the road. I'm trying to go as far away from that dystopian future that will always be pictured in sci-fi

so that we can be free to do what we want. Well said, sir. Gee, we've shook in hands a number of times in real life, but we're about to do it again in Metaverso in December. You want to pitch to the listeners why they might be interested in coming to Puerto Rico to go to Metaverso? Yeah, for sure. It's a one-day NFT conference on December 7th in Puerto Rico.

It's the beginning of Puerto Rico Blockchain Week. And so myself and a couple people based out of PR, we're like, why don't we just get together and, like, you know, get some of the best minds in NFTs and, you know, talk shop for a day. And that's kind of where the genesis of it came from. myself and Amanda Cassett decided to team up and throw this great event. And I'm super excited. We have a lot of great speakers.

You're hosting one of the panels. So thank you for that and looking forward to it. You still playing Fortnite these days? Not as much as I used to, but I literally want to just because I've been traveling, but I definitely need to get back on. If you want to play some time, let me know. I don't have an Xbox sadly. Oh, wait.

No, it's on PC, though. I can play on PC. Yeah. Do they, well, maybe one day when they upload punk, punk skins to Fortnite, I'll get myself in there. I'm patiently waiting for that day. Yeah. How else do you, like, tune out and relax from these markets? You know, I'd say probably just going out and, like, going, like, I love food.

I'm a foodie. And just hanging out with friends. And I generally try to be present when I'm with people. So that forces me to obviously put the phone down and not be on Twitter or any socials. And to me, that's like a great way to tune out, right? Because like, I think a lot of times we get lost in the grind. And to your point where like, you know, you go down the rabbit hole and there's always, there's not enough time for all the work that needs to be done.

So there's times like I sit there and I'm in front of my computer. It's like two o'clock in the morning. It's like, dude, you need to, one, disconnect and to go to sleep. But then also like, you know, sometimes you just need to go out and have some times with friends, right? And appreciate the human element. You've been doing a decent amount of traveling into all the crypto conferences. Why do you like doing that so much? Because I like the human element.

And I think that at the end of the day, like for the same reason that you have this show, right, where it's like crypto, as much it is about the tech, it's about the humans that are behind it. Right. Like if you add like bad people with bad intentions building this tech out, it would show in the tech. Right. And so to me, it's very much about like how do I do my part, right? I'm not a builder. I'm an investor and an advocate, so I need to do my part of advocating for the space and making

sure people hear the message from the right person because there's going to be a lot of people like in any mania that come in and try to get in front of it and try to say that they're the expert when maybe they have their interests that might not be totally aligned for an open future, right? So that to me is like I think that that's super important is educating people, educating in the mass, the masses at large. And if that means I, I need to travel. Like, I enjoy traveling, but like, you know, sometimes you just want to be at home and and relax and be more productive.

So, but I understand it's part of the job. It's, it's what I signed up for. Would you ever sell your punk? Who, I don't know how much you want to buy for you. Oh, not me. I really, it's, it's, you know, I see it as something that hopefully, like, I pass down to my grandchildren and, you know, it's a family heirloom. I'm almost like a crest.

Yeah. But how do you know they're not just going to sell it? I mean, I don't know. You know, hopefully I won't be around when that happens. Gee, thank you so much for coming on to Layer Zero and giving us your time. This was a fantastic story. Yeah, thank you for having me. I really enjoyed my time.

Cheers. All right, bye.