Bankless - How Crypto Can Be Good for the Environment | Klima DAO

Episode Date: September 18, 2021

Bankless Nation, meet Klima DAO, the carbon-backed digital currency and algorithmic climate protocol. Dionysus, Archimedes, and Oxylos join to discuss bringing environmental incentives to DeFi, using similar mechanics to OlympusDAO and the OHM token. Klima DAO plans to generate on-chain demand for carbon offsets and build a carbon-backed treasury, with the goal of driving up the price of carbon. Who said crypto was bad for the environment? For Bankless readers, it should come as no surprise that the powers of DeFi can be leveraged to incentivize coordination around public goods. (🌳,🌳) ------ 🚀 SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/  🎙️ SUBSCRIBE TO PODCAST: http://podcast.banklesshq.com/  🎖 CLAIM YOUR BADGE: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/-guide-2-using-the-bankless-badge  ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 💰 GEMINI | FIAT & CRYPTO EXCHANGE https://bankless.cc/go-gemini  🔀 BALANCER | EXCHANGE & POOL ASSETS https://bankless.cc/balancer  👻 AAVE | LEND & BORROW ASSETS https://bankless.cc/aave  🦄 UNISWAP | DECENTRALIZED FUNDING http://bankless.cc/uniswap  ------ Topics Covered: 0:00 Intro 4:45 Dionysus, Archimedes, and Oxylos 6:35 Klima DAO & Carbon Markets 14:10 Voluntary Economy 17:45 Relationship with OlympusDAO 25:00 Tokenomics 33:33 Inducing Demand 35:02 Ponzi Games & Game Theory 42:41 Opt-In Social Incentives 46:06 Roadmap and IDO 51:52 Slaying Moloch 57:52 Closing & Disclaimers ------ Resources: Klima DAO https://klimadao.finance/  Discord https://discord.gg/kx4pahaFw8  Klima DAO on Twitter https://twitter.com/KlimaDAO?s=20  ----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/bankless-disclosures 

Hey, Bankless Nation. Today I'm talking with three members of Klima Dow. Klima is a fork off of Olympus Dow, which is a treasury-backed Algo stable coin. But Klima has repurposed that same model to help sequester carbon out of the environment. And this is a climate-focused Dow that is generating a currency that is backed by carbon credits. So it's one part offering financial exposure to carbon credits, which have been a fantastically performing asset. in 2020. And from what I've gathered, this is an asset that as carbon gets more and more expensive, which the trend is that it does get more and more expensive, this treasury asset by Klimandau also in theory would go up in value. This project is tackling the idea of making carbon production

extremely expensive, while also allowing nonprofits or companies that actually sequester carbon and actually earn carbon credits that make them more valuable, right? So it's just net positive in the sense that it disincentivizes carbon production and incentivizes carbon sequestering. This project really gets me excited because it's one of the core, like, foundational principles of crypto that we can coordinate at larger scales than nation states, because nation states aren't solving the climate problem. Maybe they can help mitigate it. Maybe there's some efforts that's happening. But in terms of actually, like, really turning this whole climate change thing around, I think it's going to take coordination scales that are larger than what we've currently

have, which has always been why crypto has been so exciting, like coordination around larger problems. And that's what I see coming out of Klima Dow. So let's go ahead and get right into this interview with the folks from Klima Dow. They were fantastic interviewers. They were, they're all anonymous. So there's only my face that you're going to see, but you're going to see their little avatars light up when they speak. And then if you're watching on the podcast, don't even worry about that. And overall, they were a fantastic guest, very hard-hitting, very precise in their speech. So they were just lovely to interview. So let's go ahead and get right into that interview. But first, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible.

Hey guys, in the second half of the show, we dive even bankless is proud to be supported by Uniswap. Uniswap is a new paradigm in asset exchange infrastructure. Instead of a cumbersome order book system where trades are matched with other humans, Uniswap is an autonomous piece of software on Ethereum, which is what Ryan and I call a money robot. No human counterparties or centralized intermediaries, just autonomous code on Ethereum. Input the token you want to sell and receive the token you want to buy. Something brand new in the Uniswop ecosystem is the Uniswap grants program is now accepting applications for grants.

We have been saying this for a while and we'll say it again. Dow's have money and they are in need of labor. If you think that you have something to contribute to the Uniswap Dow, apply for a grant to Uniswap. Just look at the size of the Uniswap treasury. It's almost $3 billion. This mountain of capital is looking for labor. Do you have something of value to contribute to the Uniswap Dow? No matter how big or small your idea is, you can apply for a UniGrant at Unigrants.org and help steer Uniswop in the direction that you think it should go.

That's exactly what we did to get Uniswap to be a sponsor for Bankless and you can do the same for your project. Thank you Uniswap for sponsoring bankless. Balancer is a powerful platform for flexible automated market makers. Typical AMMs just have two token. inside of one liquidity pool, which can lead to fractured liquidity across the many pairs in Defi. With Balancer, you can access the full power of multiple tokens inside of one single AMM, which unlocks an entirely new playing field of possibility. This makes Balancer an awesome building block for so many different use cases. Balancer pools can make asset indices, but instead

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Balancer's vault architecture lets you trade between balancer pools at a fraction of the cost versus trading on other platforms. Balancer's mission is to become the primary source of liquidity in D5 by providing the most flexible and powerful platform for asset management and decentralized exchange. Dive into the balancer pools at app. d balancer.fI. All right, bankless nation, I am here with three team members from Klima Dow, which is a carbon-backed digital currency and algorithmic climate protocol. and today we are going to find out what the hell that means and more about what climate climate dao actually is. So guys, you guys want to take turns introducing yourself starting with a Dionysus. Cheers, David. Great to be here. So yes, I'm Dionysus. I have a background in carbon markets and

in the environmental field ranging from project development and ecosystem restoration, remote sensing technologies, et cetera, and been a big fan of Defi over the years and luckily hooked up with the right people to help make Klima happen. So that's me. Fantastic. Our communities, how about you? Yeah, great. Great to be here. Thanks, thanks, David, for having us. I'm mostly an engineer. I've built everything from MPP to production. Great stuff in all sorts of fields in DFI under a number of names. And so really stoked to be working on something, too.

And I also have a background in carbon markets and building ecosystems in that space, too. Fantastic. And I'm going to try and not butcher this name, but here it goes. Oxylos. Yeah. How was that? And then also tell me about yourself. That was great. Thanks. Yeah. I mean, again, great to be here as well. So I sit right between the other two. Basically, I'm also an engineer, but I've been like diving deep in carbon markets for a long time now and kind of building stuff at the intersection of crypto and climate, kind of like merging the two. and with a special focus on DAO. And here we are building a DAO that is actually doing exactly that, bringing all these pieces together.

All right, guys, so let's go ahead and get right into it. What is Klima Dow? What are its goals? And why do we need it? And I'll let you guys decide who should answer that first. Okay, I'll take this on because I think I've done 1,000 pitches at this point to various people. So, Clema, Dow, what is it? Well, basically, we are using the mechanics.

mechanics of Olympus to basically create a non-chain demand for carbon offsets. And the reason for this is basically you want to create demand and basically suck up the supply of carbon offsets and place them in the treasury and create a currency that's issued and backed by carbon offsets. So using carbon as the denomination of currency value. And why do we need this? Well, there's a number of reasons why we need this. But primarily it's to drive the price of carbon up and basically to create a number of

pressure on individuals, corporations, everybody who are basically purchasing offsets to actually do something about their footprint instead of buying their way out of it. Okay, so I'm going to interrupt you guys and just like, you know, check my understanding every now and then. And so my understanding is that there are these carbon credits out there. Carbon credits are not anything to do with crypto. They are, you know, credits like generated by government policy to allow some sort of free market to help manage the control of carbon. And you guys are trying to capture and hoard as much

carbon credits as possible using the same, using a fork of Olympus Dow. And the idea is that if you generate a currency that is backed by these carbon credits, the carbon credit treasury grows and grows and grows, which is kind of like a pseudo way to sequester carbon from the world by hoarding carbon credits using crypto tools. Is that right? It's pretty close. It's basically there's a difference, right, because you're touching carbon credit. So there's a difference between the compliance market, which you just mentioned, which is governments that give out the right to pollute, which are also called emission allowances,

and then what are called carbon offsets, which are generally carbon projects with actually plant trees or, you know, renewable energy projects that are created and then audited by third-party standards and then create these carbon offsets, which are not really government-controlled. So that's called the voluntary carbon market. And Klimadau starts by interacting with this latter one. So the voluntary carbon market, which is the only true global carbon market out there, right? Because the other ones are always linked to a certain jurisdiction. So we start off with the voluntary carbon market.

So it's like an opt-in market. No one is forcing companies, but they just do it of their own incentives just to be good. entities in the world in the world? Pretty much, yeah. I mean, if you hear, you know, the Microsoft to the black rocks of the world coming out with, we're going to be carbon neutral or even we're going to, you know, compensate for our historic footprint. What they talk about is exactly this, this market, the voluntary market, which has been grown like quite, quite a lot these last year because more and more companies come out and make claims about, you know, their climate

targets. So, but, you know, definitely the Dionysos is even, is the guy to talk to if you want to know much more about the intranes, like all of the intricacies of this market. Totally. Yeah. Our community is Dionysus. You guys have anything to add? Yeah. I just say that, you know, there's a number of factors right now that are really driving the voluntary carbon market forward.

One, you have like massive commitments by different corporates because of consumer pressure oftentimes that, you know, we want to be buying products that are green or that have less impact on the environment. So these companies are internalizing that the negative environmental costs. and they're rectifying that through the purchase of carbon offsets. And I think the key piece with carbon offsets is that these are delivering finance to sustainability projects around the world that are helping to either mitigate the release of carbon emissions or actually remove them from the atmosphere. So on the removal side, you have things like aforestation projects, you know, simply planting trees or mangroves. And on the mitigation side, you have projects, you know, such as solar or wind energy installations, that are basically stopping fossil fuels from being, you know, feeding electricity into the grid.

Instead, you're doing it in a renewable way. Okay, so check my learning on that one. There are a bunch of projects, nonprofits, entities, maybe even companies that are able to produce carbon offset credits based off of what they are doing. And A, is that correct? And then B, when they produce these carbon offset credits, if they are higher valued in the market, these companies are more sustainable, more fundable, more profitable, and therefore more sustainable.

Yeah, there's a really foundational piece to the voluntary carbon market and carbon offset projects in general. And that's this idea of additionality. And what that means is that all of these projects wouldn't have happened, let's say, naturally in the market, unless they were given this additional finance from the sale of carbon offsets. So for instance, you know, next year, you won't be able to produce. carbon offsets from renewable projects in countries like the United States or in Europe because

renewables in those countries, you know, they're already cost competitive with fossil fuels. You don't need the additional finance to make them realized essentially, but you'll still be able to issue offsets from renewable projects in places like India, for instance, where you know, you still need that extra nudge to make sure that instead of producing another coal powered power plant, you're instead erecting wind turbines, for example. Okay, so, but the original, like, model that I gave, I want to just double check and make sure that's true. Klima Dow is trying to purchase and hoard as much credits as possible in order to, like, add scarcity to the secondary market, which is good because that makes producing carbon more expensive. And it also makes sequestering carbon or all these renewable sources more profitable.

That's the model? 100%. Yeah. So, I mean, you can think of essentially, we're, we're. we're game-stopping almost the voluntary carbon market, right? So we're creating, we're using the incentive structure to, yeah, exactly. We're using the incentive structure to drive more and more demand for these carbon credits. So by reducing the supply, we drive up the price, which makes compensating your emissions actually more costly,

which will drive polluters to actually reduce their emissions, which is what we want to be seeing, right? And furthermore, there's like, I think an additional component. that we haven't touched on, which is we're democratizing the access also to this asset class, which all the experts are quite agreeing upon that the price of carbon is definitely going to increase in the coming years. And what climate does, it actually allows DFI users to, you know, be part of that, right? Be part of that rising market and actually help drive the price up, right? because it's like this positive reinforcement loop, which means that the more people bring carbon offsets

to the climate protocol, the more less there is supply on the market. So the intrinsic value of the treasury grows, which we are basically contributing to the price of it actually increasing. So I think this is the most powerful component of it, actually. So I do want to dive into more crypto stuff, but one more question on the basics, incentives around these carbon credits because that's like an area I'm super unfamiliar with. Since this is an opt-in voluntary economy, if the cost of carbon goes up, won't that just

disincentivize participation? And people will be like, okay, well, it was fun to help be a part of this economy and do good for the planet when it only costs us like a couple basis points. But if the cost of carbon goes up and it actually starts to like, you know, materially impact the profitability of companies, won't they just like opt out and be like, well, that was fun, but like now, now we want to make sure we're profitable as possible. So like now that this is expensive, we don't want to do this anymore. Like what's stopping people from doing that? It's a great question. And I think to kind of illustrate why carbon offsets are still such a powerful tool and companies are really internalizing these costs, regardless of some of the things that

are going on financially, probably the best year ever for the voluntary carbon market happened during this, this COVID-induced economic downturn. So even though, you know, this is really, hitting companies, bottom lines in many cases. There's just so much evidence. And I think companies realize, like, we have to do something in the climate crisis. And offsets provide this really streamlined way to deliver finance to projects, which are going to have positive climate effects in the years to come, which is in everybody's best interest.

Our community has to add. Yeah. Yeah. To add to, like, you can opt out for sure, like, if it becomes too expensive for you. But then you're going to face, like, huge backlash, right? because a lot of these companies that are opting in right now, they are basically signaling to everyone that they're doing something about what their footprint is. But, you know, if they're only doing it when it's profitable for them,

then, like, obviously they're going to get called out harshly for that. And that's not, you know, the route they want to be perceived out. Like, you know, you will definitely, like, it will then become a cost reduction exercise elsewhere, right? So, like, if I know that offsets cost me $300 a ton, but it costs me $60 a ton to do, do something internally, like reduce my emissions from some sort of, you know, power plant output or something, I'll do that instead, right? Like, then your commitment that you made, like saying that you're going to be carbon neutral but 2030 or 2040 or whatever you said publicly,

you will then have to then look elsewhere to do, to do something interesting for. Cool, guys. Okay. So, like, basically these commitments are like backed by social incentives rather than, like, legally enforce requirements is more backed by like social legitimacy, which I mean is a powerful force. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, I think I've heard somebody telling me that the voluntary carbon market is moving into a direction of being a pledge compliance market. So actually, all these companies who came out making public judges now have to comply with their own

their own announcements, basically. And I thought this, yeah, I think this is really, for me it was really, yeah, this is what we have right now, right? Like, it's not, and the market It has always been, you know, it is, oh, yeah, you know, it's nice. We can, you know, offset our emissions, et cetera. But like, now we have a different era, basically. We're entering into an era where people understand that internalizing the cost of carbon is, it's just like, it's just a natural way of doing things and, like, just creating like an even playground and things for doing internal accounting.

So I'm personally not very worried about companies opting out. if they are, I think consumer pressure will do the rest. Okay, great. Okay, guys, let's dive into the crypto side of things. So Olympus Dow is, and again, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not super familiar with it, but it's an algorithmic stablecoin semi-backed algorithmic stable coin project, and you guys are just forking it to do your own thing. Is that right?

Sort of. So we're all original OMIS. So we've all been part of the Olympic. this community from the get-go. We really like the mechanics. It's a fully backed currency. Every home that exists, there's at least one die in the treasury, right? So you know that there's an intrinsic value fundamentally to your currency.

Which is a really fascinating concept. I mean, they introduced a whole new set of tools like liquidated its own to buy your protocol, like all sorts of stuff. And like bond purchasing to actually, you know, purses of that from users is fantastic. So we looked at that and we said, well, what if we applied this to carbon markets? like something we know really well we're like okay well this makes a lot of sense of these types of incentive structures like putting stuff into a treasury you know paying for for liquidity outright and

making sure that you have like you basically develop a whole market on chain with with the actual community itself we looked at an olympus we're like this could be it so then we started experimenting we started thinking about okay testing here and there and then we approach them and said can we can we do it can we can we use your your contract and and do so and from the get go it's been a collaborative effort with them. Like we didn't want to just be seen as a fork. We took their idea and kind of move things on. We wanted to be seen as like a improvement. Like we're, you know, we're kind of advancing the tech. I myself contributed quite early to a lot of the tech that happened at Olympus, a lot of the design, design decisions that happened. And it's fantastic because it's, you know, we get to give back finally.

So like, you know, we've written a bunch of improvements and stuff like that. But we have their, not only their blessing, but like also their collaboration. We gave them a significant portion of early tokens in the form of P-Klimas that they can exercise in a future time. Basically saying, like, look, in the future we want to work together and we want to make sure that we can build something really cool. We even explored the idea of like joint bonds, like OM-Klima bonds, where you have dye exposure for climate users and then you have carbon exposure for OM users, you know, stuff like that.

That's all stuff that we're kind of from the beginning. We said, no, let's not just, you know, let's involve them because it's, you know, they're tech that we're leveraging and you know we're using a bunch of other people's tech as well so it 100% has to be like a collaborative effort to make sure that we succeed and and yeah and then that's how we've been approaching it from from from the start so it's it's really it's it's a like the whole mechanics of olympus that'll make a lot of sense not just for Olympus themselves but like as a fundamental innovation in defy like like as a primitive like this could be copied in for as needed yeah like there there's there's like a lot of talk about what

pool two is, right? They basically that you have to constantly provide incentives in the form of liquidity mining tokens or whatever for people to maintain liquidity. And once the liquidity rewards run out, people move on to the next project, right? Which is exactly what we saw with D5 farming, you know, last year or the year before, where people were just seeing obscene APIs farming and liquidity and then leaving, right? And then pulling the whole thing out and then the project would die. In this case, you know, Olympus basically presented the solution that they will own

the liquidity. So there's no risk of anyone ever leaving or pulling the liquidity out of their own protocol. That would make no sense, right? And this to me and many others I've seen like people talk about it has completely changed the relationship you have with D5 projects because you now have this like assurance that the protocol is going to stay, right? Like they became, they armed fees off the off the trading. They all they own the liquidity. Like there's a whole host of benefits that come out of it that are really, really fascinating. And you know, as a primitive i'm sure it'll become adopted in in some form or another by many many protocols where they actually end up owning the liquidity of their own of their own of their own protocol because you

have to like it makes all the sense in the world right like you want to ensure this whereas like you know there was a there was like this morning actually we're talking about alchemics they spend 20 million a month or something like that on liquidity incentives which is nuts like that's that's a huge cost that you can just reduce if you just own the liquidity So anyway, like, long story short, like we looked at this and said, like, this is fantastic, let's apply it and let's modify it for carbon and all the stuff that we really understand. And, you know, we've been working ever since. And we've got the LBP coming up on Tuesday.

We had the IDO, which was super successful over over 575K raised from users. They got a sweet NFT made by Sven. Oh, my goodness. Like, I can't talk enough about how awesome that it was. There's so many people who were telling them, oh, this is like the coolest NFT ever. So it's coming together and we're really, really excited for what this can do. Hey, guys, in the second half of the show, we dive even deeper into the crypto side of things. We talk about the Klima Dow token as a currency.

How can it have induced demand both from inside the Dow and outside the Dow as well as just how can it be used as a social signaling currency? We know people's social signal with NFTs all the time. Can the Klima Dow token as a currency also be used as social. signaling. That's, I think, is an interesting question. Since we all, since in the first half of the show, we talked about how there's these opt-in climate markets, which are just done because of social incentives, can we also leverage those same social incentives to get the Klimadal token more just like, you know, absorbed into the world, right? Because demand for the climate down the line, I asked about the roadmap, what's necessary to bootstrap this whole

entire ecosystem and then also the long term like imagine a maximally successful version of Klima Dow. What does that look like for the Dow? What does that look like for the Dow token? What does that look like for the world? How does it help change the world for a better? So all of those conversations are coming in the second half of the show. But before we get there, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible. Gemini is the world's most trusted cryptocurrency exchange. I've been a customer of Gemini since I first got into crypto in 2017. And it's been my main exchange of choice to make my crypto buys and sells. Gemini is available in all 50 states and in over 50 countries worldwide and on Gemini there are markets for over 30 various different crypto assets

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collateral. Here, you can see me borrowing 200 USDC against my portfolio of a number of different defy tokens in ETH. I'll choose a variable interest rate because it's a lower rate than the stable interest rate option, but I could choose the stable interest rate option if I wanted to lock in that interest rate in permanently. V2 also features the ability for users to swap collateral without having to withdraw their assets, trade them on un-swap, and then deposit them back into AVE. With AVE, users can do this in one seamless transaction, saving you time and gas costs. Check out the power of AVE at AVE.com. That's A-A-A-V-E.com. Okay, so you guys have a very clear mission, and it sounds like you guys have the infrastructure to achieve those goals. But,

One of the things that needs to happen is you actually have to induce demand of the stable coin. There's a stable coin that results out of the Klima Dow fork of Olympus Dow. Right, right? Yeah. I mean, it all depends on the definition of stablecoin, right? I think you had this conversation on your podcast. At least I heard an episode about it. So it's not a pegged currency.

Okay. It's a backed currency, right? So we are creating, we're creating Klima, which is a token that is backed by carbon credits, but it's not packed to any existing price because there is no global price for carbon, right? And this is part of the exercise here is to create something like a meta index that can serve as something like a, you know, at least a signal for the price of carbon, even though we very much anticipate the price of climate to trade at the premium of carbon, because there's obviously additional like incentives and rewards detached to the climate.

to the climate currency. Wait, so are there, there are two tokens, right? One's the Dow token, one's the currency token? No, so there's the collateral, which is an index token called the base carbon ton, which essentially is an carbon index token that is denominated in one ton of carbon, and which is essentially a token that is backed by a basket of different carbon offsets from different projects. And then this is essentially what replaces dye, which goes into Olympus Treasury.

We only accept base carbon tons. And then on that basis, we meant the climate currency, which is really, really that, right? It's like a currency token. It is also the governance token of the climate dollar. So it is like the Dow token as the Dow grows, this in theory would also grow in value? Exactly. But the whole point here, right, is to the more base carbon ton tokens we have in the treasury, the more climate can be minted.

Because each climate is by, you know, policy always backed by at least one ton of carbon, so one BCT. And this means that if we have more BCT in the treasury, the protocol actually mints additional climate tokens. And it does so by rewarding people who stake climate. So there's a possibility to stake your climate to kind of go long, you know, go long in civilization and, you know, not sell. And all the people that are staking receive the newly created. climate tokens. So the inflation goes to the people who are huddled, basically. So and this obviously creates an additional incentive or like, you know,

a reward for people, which what we see in Olympus means that the own, which is the, you know, equivalent of climate in Olympus, trades at a premium, like substantial premium compared to the underlying age in their cases, dying, and in our cases, the base carbon time. So how how would you characterize the pricing of the Klima Dow token? If it is the currency, like it's not going to appreciate in value in the same way like the Uni Dow token or the SNX Dow token would because of its issuance, right? Like as more collateral gets added to the Treasury, more Klima gets issued, which kind of is what like, you know, a typical fiat currency does, right? like as there's more in the, you know, Federal Reserve, the central bank, they issue more currencies

to stabilize that price. The details of that we can leave behind. But like how is the Klima token, how would you describe it's like equilibrium of how it's going to be priced or is it more like emergent? Do we even know? It's kind of hard because like if you look at Olympus and how it trades, right? Like the same mechanics apply here, right? Like they have a fundamental, in theory, Olympus should only be.

worth $1, right? Because each oam is worth one die and intrinsically, right? But then there's also risk pre-value associated with how much other assets they have in their treasury and basically other things that backed this currency. And so it trades at a premium far above that, right?

Like, you know, $200 almost. And the same is true here. Like, Kima is, in many ways, yes, it's backed by carbon tons and carbon tons present like an intrinsic value, but predicting kind of the longer term what it'll trade it is difficult for a number of reasons, but also like, you know,

how do you quantifiably measure carbon governance on chain as valuable, right? Like it's a, we will, that'll only emerge once we know like that, like that, what the market basically values that at and says like, okay, like, you know, this should trade at a 5x premium above the underlying collateral or this should trade it at 10x or 100x, whatever. Like that is fundamentally kind of how, but that's like, that's the premium value that's associated.

Like in the Olympus, like there's a premium associated with all, these people managing this thing, you know, the contributor discord is like 200 people. Like, it's ridiculous. Like they work together on all sorts of things to actually make sure the whole thing runs. And, you know, this will be no different. Like, we already have like, you know, tons of people asking to just kind of move things together and really work on. So that premium is hard to quantify because like you're essentially signing a price to, you know, what is the Dow worth, like as a community. And in Olympus, 100%, like it's, you know, The community is everything there, right?

Like it's 13,000 people now almost, and they are, it's a fantastic community to be a part of. It's one of the coolest defy communities I've ever been. And it's awesome. And so we're hoping to replicate something very, very similar in what we're doing. And maybe just to add, like, this is exactly the reason why we're doing a liquidity group strapping pool, because it, you know, it's basically the best way to create price discovery from the get-go. And we, we as a team, you know, we don't know. We don't know what the price should be. We'll find out next week.

So this is as exciting for us as it is for everybody else. Very cool. Very cool. Yeah. So, okay, so like the answer to the question is it'll be emergent. Like, we'll find out. Yeah. Yeah.

I think maybe one dimension to add, which is important, is that it's not actually about the price. So the thing is, as you say, right, there's, there's inflation happening. and the inflation obviously means that it pushes the price down. But what happens is given that the people who stake actually get rebased, so there's a rebase that takes place every eight hours, which means that if you are staking, you actually get fresh climate into your wallet every eight hours, which means that first of all, you're also compounding your position, but you also, you know, it doesn't matter at the end of the day,

if the price goes down because you're rewarded with the additional amount of currency in your wallet. Okay. So it's kind of a, you know, volatility dampens scenario more than that it is like, you know, pegged or anything like that. So how do you induce demand into the Klima token? Like if it is a currency, like the Treasury of, uh, of KleeMat Dow sequestering, carving credits from the voluntary markets. that will be easier if you can induce demand into the Klima token.

Is there a plan to induce demand somehow? Yeah, so that's exactly what like Sos was talking about is like the staking rewards are basically the long-term APIs of, you know, four-digit plus, basically. That's like the whole incentive in Olympus, right? Like it's to stake because by you staking and me staking, we're basically contributing to pulling liquidity off the market and basically into this staking pool. And then, you know, further, you know, increasing demand while not having enough supply for the actual token. And cleaning basically operates in exactly the same way. Like, it's entirely designed to do so.

And once you have that, you basically, because you can get stats just like raw stats from Olympus, for instance, 85% of people are staking. 15% actually exists on the open market or in various pools for whatever people are doing. So it's actually not a whole lot to purchase, which means that, you know, the purchasing power every time someone does is, you know, is always increasing and pushing price up. And the same is true here. Like, you know, we want to incentivize staking under the same rewards to basically make sure that you have this incentive to hold for as long as possible.

So, okay, so here's my concern with that. And this is like a model, almost all, I think every single crypto asset largely operates on the same, like every single crypto asset is a Ponzi game. Bitcoin started the Ponzi game. There's 21 million units because they're incentive to hold because they're scarce. People hold them. And then the price goes up because people hoard them. And then at some point, people start to sell because it's a Ponzi game.

Meaningfully different from a Ponzi scheme, which is that like somebody's actually going to rugpole. No one rugpoles with Bitcoin. It's a Ponzi game that we're all playing. And like one of the big criticisms that I've heard about algorithmic stable coins, of which I know, like, Olympus Dow is not. and therefore, Klement Dow is also not. But, like,

one of the big criticisms of, like, algorithmic stable coins is that there's, like, this, there are, they are a Ponzi game with, like,

too short of a loop, right? And so when I, when I ask, like, how do you guys induce demand, there's internal demand, which is what you guys

have just illustrated, but there's also external demand. And that external demand, in my mind, is what, like, makes these things long-term sustainable. Because if you have value capture, going to all these people

who are staking and by that you are incentivizing people to buy off the secondary market in order to stake in order to capture value, it turns it into a Ponzi game because the more people that participate, like if you got in first and if you got in earlier than everyone else, it turns into a game of chicken as like, all right, like, are you going to sell? Are you going to sell? Who's going to sell first? And it turns into like, like, you know, the price can only go up so much before people start to like all collectively, you know, tap out and play chicken and then they sell all their profits and then it turns in while it was like recursive reflexive on the way up it might be reflexive on the way down have you guys

thought about this yeah this is actually so this is one of my favorite points to talk about the forever Ponzi game idea rightfully so like you know exactly as you described like we're all just playing a Ponzi game and who's ever selling first is kind of on the way up that being said things are a little bit different yeah it may appear as a Ponzi on the outside in in the case of Olympus and Klima because, yeah, stakers are getting perpetually rewarded for what, but what's underpinning the entire thing is bonds. So bonds in the form of basically I come with a certain amount of currency, I pay for clemas at a discount, and in exchange, I get clemas after a certain period of time, or I get omens

after a certain period of time. So what ends up happening is you have this mechanic called 1-1, or basically, I bond and someone else bonds, and then staking is considered a 3-3, basically the game theory mechanic that revolves around that. And selling is considered a negative three action, right? So if we both sell negative three, negative three, like the protocol basically dwindows as a result and there's no like, you know, positive

income there, like loop there. So what ends up happening is bonds, bonds basically take this whole thing away. And that's not where it, so the stakers aren't just getting rewarded for the sake of staking. Like they're not, these, these rewards aren't getting generated at a thin air. They're getting generated out of bonds. And so bonds, basically trade at a premium slightly below the market.

And what that really is, it's the protocol paying users for particular things in exchange for assets. So in the case of Olympus, they pay users for die at a discount off the market and say, we'll give you OMS, but you want, give us Dye so we can put it in our treasury. And so like, let's say OMS is trading for $300 and they offer a 10% discount. That means that person can buy it, you know, they can buy it for 270 bucks from the article and after five days we'll have the home. So what that really does is it gives the treasury $270 to then issue $270 more

own. So they actually purchased die at a discount from the user. And the user is basically, this is how the whole idea of intrinsic treasury value and risk free value emerges as well is basically over time. So intrinsic value is fundamentally the idea that one home is worth one die in the case of Klima is one, Klima is worth one base carbon ton. over time you then basically have this the more people purchase bonds you have this over collateralization that kind of occurs you have so many assets in the treasury that if everyone

pulled out their own at the same time they would get a certain amount of money based on one like basically a run on the bank right so if everyone decided i'm going to sell oms for whatever um then then you look at the risk free value and the risk free value is how many assets exist in the treasury per om that exists in circulation so in the case of i think the last figure that i looked at was about $26, meaning that for every own that exists, there's 26 assets that back it. And this basically means that there is a floor fundamentally on what you're doing. And this just grows with time. Like you just look at the charts and you can see the same thing.

So this is kind of what prevents it as a Ponzi because a Ponzi implies that if everyone pulled their money out at the same time, somebody would be a loser and get nothing. In this case, everyone gets something and it's, you know, slightly more than what it originally is. And the same is true here. Like you will get something and that's something is you'll get a certain amount of carbon tons. And those carbon tons have value, you know, across the board in terms of other ecosystems. Lots of NFT artists are trying to do carbon offsetting.

You have organizations that are working on, you know, carbon offsetting Bitcoin as a protocol, like this whole host of things that are emerging on chain. Very recently like this year almost, like January was kind of like the, really the kickstart for a lot of this. And it's just, it's growing with time. Like you have more and more people. who are working on all sorts of things. So in the same instance, while it may appear as a Ponzi on the outside,

what it really is is you have to look at the risk-free value of the Treasury. And once you understand that, then you say, okay, my, you know, my climate trades it this much, I can get this many tons if something bad happens. And fundamentally, you never go, there is no chance of you ever being on the losing end of a Ponzi. Because on a Ponzi, like, there's a very real chance that you end up with nothing, right? And that's not the case in Olympus, that war, clean up. But I would agree with your point, like creating external demand for this is obviously like our long-term goal, right?

And it's certainly increasing the resilience of the whole system, right? And we can see this like very much playing into like the other happy default protocol that are all out there. And, you know, I can't wait to get a loan out of, you know, my climate tokens like Awe or whatever or, you know, use it as collateral in MakerDAO or, you know, you name it. So I think at the beginning, right, we, we. We're here to, you know, prove a point. We're here to establish a new currency that is backed by something that we actually care about and it actually has real impact on our planet. And if we can turn this into a sustainable model, you know, we can adjust the staking rewards.

And, you know, this has happened in Olympos, that as well. So this is a protocol that has very much, you know, the control over their financial or like the monetary policy. And we can tweak it to, you know, be functioning. on different levels, you know, and achieving different objectives and going more towards stability and in the long run, while maybe we want to incentivize as many carbon tons to be locked up in the protocol at the beginning. So getting, getting, you know, getting climate into other protocols as quickly as possible, yes, please, right? And that's what we hear. People learn about it. And this is how connections happen in crypto.

Is there a conversation to be had about these opt-in incentives? We talked about how there's this voluntary carbon market, which is new to me, so thank you for teaching me about that. And apparently these social incentives are so strong that, like, that actually commits these companies to, like, align with their own pledges and, like, forces them into economic actions, even though they're not legally bounded to these things. is there some sort of conversation to be had about some sort of like opt-in social incentives to purchase the Klima Dow token? Like maybe that's like another like social signaling things like, hey, like look at my open sea. It's got all these cool NFTs. Oh, and then also that same wallet has a balance of like Klima tokens because I'm a good Samaritan who wants to sequester carbon from the world. Is there a conversation to we have about about that?

If I could jump in real quick on this just to point out one consideration, I think the social contract, is a big part of the value of carbon. But there's other price pressures as well, and some of them are also regulatory. So just as an example, in the Colombian carbon tax system, essentially companies have to source offsets that come from domestic projects in Colombia.

And a lot of these are actually coming from the voluntary carbon market. What that in effect has done is it's actually raised the price floor for different types of forest conservation projects that are coming from that region on the voluntary carbon market. And so I think one of the beautiful things, about Klima in terms of being in the defy space is that there's a price pressure to really, you know, raise the value of BCTs that's not just coming from internal to the defy space.

There's actually this an external market where there's a confluence of factors that are working to actually raise the price floor of carbon. And I think that's quite a unique thing that the climate has to offer. And in terms of, you know, really incentivizing usage in the space, you mentioned, and I I think the NFT artists have been absolutely massive over the last couple of months and really raising awareness about climate issues. And a lot of them are choosing to actually offset the footprints of their NFTs, you know, as calculated. There's various groups that have looked at proof of work of Ethereum and they've broken it down, you know, thinking of groups like carbon FYI, throughout, et cetera. CO2 also did work in this space.

And, you know, essentially the artists saying, okay, we're producing all these things. let's take care of the carbon footprint and a lot of their audience really appreciates that as well. And so then this leads us to say, okay, where else can Klima be integrated? I think there's huge potential that if we're talking about building this next generation financial infrastructure,

let's do it from the beginning with the planet and mine. And that's really the opportunity here is that because we're building this token in the DFI space that's backed by carbon, we can really easily integrate this carbon infrastructure sure, you know, the dream would be AVE or, you know, other platforms like this, but you can really,

yeah, see where the potential is there. Totally. Totally. But I like the idea of, like, having it as like, you know, signaling, signaling kind of thing, right? I totally agree with you. I think, you know, public blockchins have, have this strong power of actually, you know, I think, I think climate actions should be the status simple of the 21st century.

And this gives us all the tools to be, to do that. Very cool. So guys, tell me about the roadmap. What's next? So short term, we've got, so we had IDO, was a few weeks ago. Short term, we got the LVP coming up Tuesday. It's going to be a three-day event, 14th to 17th. IDEO initial.

Discord offering. So basically everyone. Yeah, Discord was people had a chance to purchase an NFT that gives them a claim to KLEM as they get airdropped to them later. And then they got a cool NFT out of it, but also they get tokens on an early price. And this also, in turn, basically, allows us to bootstrap the liquidity bootstrapping pool. Because that requires upro-up capital. Which was the LBP, this is a balancer liquidity bootstrapping pool, which bankless listeners will remember.

That's how we sold our T-shirts once on the time. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Same concept. And we're working with Alchemists and the copper launch team to make sure that that goes out smoothly. So that's the next short-term thing. after that, like once we have all that done and squared away, it's going to be launched

the protocol. So we've been live on TestNet since like June. So people can already test it on Madik, Mumbai, if you want to. Just ping me and I'll send you some tokens. It's super easy. And then, so then we'll basically launch the entire protocol on Madik, like, name net. So poly, that's how old I am. I remember it as Madic, not Polygon.

It has been a while. It's a habit that I cannot. Hopefully you bought some Madic at the time. Yeah, yeah. believe me, that was like the biggest regret. I bought enough that I was like, oh, like I'll never have to like worry about deployment contracts ever again. I never really saw it as like a financial asset. Financial asset.

I'm like, oh, this is really cool. I could use it. So, yeah, this is my engineer coming out. But so yeah, so then Madic Mainnet is coming out. And then that's where everything's ready to go. And then we'll have, you know, staking will be live on day one. Bonds will be live on day one. So the whole protocol goes up and up and running at the same time.

As Olympus, they basically released the token first, and then they released everything that they were working on. We have the benefit of basically being able to do all of that at once because it's already been built. And we're working on a number of other things. So like CO2 can, for instance, is building a permissionless carbon bridge. That's almost ready. And that's like that would be deployed as well. People will be able to bring their tonnage from Vera on themselves or they can have someone do it for them. Like there's a whole bunch of routes there that we can help people move their stuff on chain and basically benefit from all the,

crazy stuff that's happening in D-FIRE. And that's like kind of the short term, like the next few months, longer term, like we talk about this quite extensively, but compliance market. So at the very beginning, we talked about voluntary markets, like Vera Gold Center. This is where people opt into this incentive to do something great about the plan. And this is where, you know, all the big companies, Microsoft, Google, Facebook, whoever, whoever you are that you make a carbon pledge to and say, like, we're going to be carbon neutral by whatever, you're operating in the voluntary market. There's a whole other side of the market, which, you're a whole other side of the market, is called compliance, and I'm going to totally butcher this.

Dionysus knows this way better than I do, but fundamentally, that's like state-level actors, right? Under the Paris Agreement, they basically are trading compliance certificates on, you know, Canada has to do this much emission reduction based on its allowance, and they trade with France or they trade with, you know, the states or somewhere else. And they, and this whole side of the market has a different categorization, different level of ruling and regulation. And to Dionysus's point, by influencing the voluntary market, this also gives us an opportunity to influence the compliance market. But longer term, we also want to build, and we have a bunch of partners in the pipeline too for this as well, but we want to basically build the same types of D5 bridge ecosystem

tools for the compliance market. So people can then enter and participate in this much more distributed and fair market that emerges as a result. So if we prove the voluntary one, it's very easy for us to then just push into the compliance one, which is much bigger. And we can actually have a significant impact on everybody's commitments to not just at a company or corporate, like, you know, social level, but also at like a regulatory level. Like if you signed the Paris Agreement, you agreed to reduce your emissions by 20 percent. And suddenly the price of carbon is so expensive, you're going to have to do something about it. Quick tip-it on that, too.

Go ahead. So I was just going to say, you know, the carbon market in the European system, it's the European emissions trading system, it's been one of the best. best performing commodities in the past year. And the Australian carbon compliance market, it just reached an all-time high. And I just point that out because, you know, the carbon market itself, that the voluntary carbon market could be worth, you know, 50 billion by 2030. And so, you know, this is why having exposure to this market and bringing that exposure

to defi users is so exciting, of course. Right. Yeah. So this is not just necessarily like a voluntary feel good for participating. This like actually has like raw economic upside exposure incentives. as well. Absolutely. Cool. Yeah, everybody, everybody who is in the space is right now buying up supply. And it's like there's already, you know, we can all already see like a supply crunch because people understand that, you know, buying now while the price is still cheap is a really

smart move. And yeah, so I think this is, you know, this is really, and it's frustrating because it's quite a gated market. It's not easy to get to get access, especially it's not as an individual. So, you know, this is happening behind closed doors and like giving everybody the possibility to participate and like, you know, hedging also with by having exposure on carbon. I think this is, I think this is something that hasn't been done yet in crypto. Guys, are you familiar with the whole slang Molok meme that we talk about on bankless every now and then? No.

Oh, oh gosh, guys. Oh, man. Fortunately no, Philston. Yeah. Okay, so Molok is the god of human coordination failure. And, I mean, climate change is like one of the core examples of this, right? Like, everyone knows that we should stop, like, ruining the climate, but no one wants to actually do it themselves. They want everyone else to do it.

And so it never happens, right? Like, there's all these coordination failures. Like, the negative externalities of capitalism is a coordination failure. There's a bunch of coordination failures. And so Molok is like this representative god that we've kind of memed into existence. that came from this Slate Star Codex blog called Meditations on Moloch. And something I talk about with Kevin Awaki all the time is that, like, crypto is brand new coordination infrastructure to help solve coordination failures, right?

So climate change, one of the biggest coordination failures. Hopefully we can use these coordination tools that we have, which are DAOs are very significant part of, like tokens as well. Ethereum is in smart contracts. These are all coordination tools. And so I think my final question for you guys is, since you guys don't know the Moloch meme, I'll leave the Moloch side out of it. But you guys should definitely go listen to the slang Moloch episode on bankless. We will.

Like, give us the maximumly successful version of the future for Klima Dow. Like 5, 10, 20 years from now, Klima Dow is everything you guys envision it to be. What does it look like? What is it done? And how is the world different? Yeah, although first, I'm sure everyone has their own view of it. But in my view, like long term, it's basically carbon price has appreciated such a point that it's a luxury good. Like if you're buying carbon offsets, you're paying for something that is truly a premium product.

And otherwise, you're just completely incentivized to just be better, right? Like the whole coordination mechanism that you're talking about like coordination failure is because there's like a cheap op-out, right? That opt-out, you can just not have, you know, pollution problems by just paying your way out of it, which is totally not fair. for the people who actually are doing something like significantly valuable. So long term, like that's basically it. It's like we've coordinated. We've solved this. And at this point, like we've created a whole ecosystem that revolves around

regenerative capitalism rather than exploitive capitalism, right? Like building a whole currency on the premise that it's backed by regenerative actions. That's like the future I want to see. It's going to be super cool. Yeah. And I just want to add to this, like, you know, if we really think this to the end, like, we have the choice of the currency we use. And if we get climate to a point where it's, you know, operating as a stable currency that

is really collateralized by the things that we care about. And we're starting with carbon, but, you know, it's really just because it's a proxy for a lot of like ecosystem services, you know, biodiversity is something that we definitely want to see getting more attention also in the future. And this is something that climate can also incorporate in the future. So having this money, which is essentially turned to social contract on its head. head and by, you know, just agreeing the more utility the currency has, the higher value, right? So if we get people to adopt climate also as like a currency and like the more people decide

to hold and huddle in climate, this means that it's creating essentially the sink for all these environmental assets. So yeah, this is probably dreamland and won't happen the next five years. But yeah, I think that would be incredibly exciting if we actually establish a new currency that is underpinned by different economics. One of the things that Oxlis brought up early on in our meetings together is that, you know, Klimidau could really democratize access to climate finance for users. And I think that's something that everyone really has an affinity for. And we realize the potential of that, which is super exciting. And I think Klimidau itself is just a testament to the type of amazing collaboration.

that can happen in the defy space. We each were working at disparate groups. We had various backgrounds. There were some overlap in carbon markets or defy, but we realize there's just a huge synergy potential by working together and producing this. And that's really what's happened. So long term, I would love to see Kulima really catalyze finance

and accelerate the price pressure on the carbon market, really make these companies have to reduce their emissions, and just restore ecosystems. around the world, there's so much potential, if you really think about it, of working together with crypto, pulling capital together, and then developing carbon projects. Absolutely, I think that's something that Cleveland could be a part of in the future, and it's extremely exciting to think about. And just, like, one thing to add, right, we have an incredible community already in this part,

but like, I think it's over 2,000 users now that are, you know, crypto users that are educating themselves about climate change and, like, how we can tackle it. I think we shouldn't underestimate the role of, you know, a group that is basically focused around, like, climate action and crypto and, like, educating ourselves and creating new tools and experimenting with new ways of, you know, driving finance to where it's needed. So one last thing is, you know, come into the Discord and we have office hours twice a week. We've been doing this for, like, a couple of months now. So people come in every Tuesday and every Thursday, you can just hop into the Discord and they're, and we're there, we answer questions, we, you know, and we educate ourselves about to stop it. So I think there's a big gap there.

And if we can be a part of filling this gap, like this is something that, yeah, this is something that we, you know, is really important and is really core to this. Well, guys, this is one, it's such a fantastic project. I'm so glad we got connected by our mutual friend, Chas. I just want to say that when I first got into crypto, it was problems like these that got me just like, you know, into this whole crypto thing. And like as we got into this whole crypto thing, like we kind of got a little bit distracted by like, you know, all these like defy tokens, financial assets. And decentralized finance is important, right? You guys are a part of decentralized finance. But like it's some of these like grander problems that like nation states aren't necessarily big enough to solve themselves that we need some sort of better global coordination.

infrastructure. And so, like, seeing projects like, like, Lima Dow come out of this is like, oh, yes, this is like, let's return to like some of the original, like, you know, dreams that we had back in 2015, 16, 17 about like how crypto can truly change the world. And Oxylus, you said, like, maybe like this isn't going to happen in five years. Maybe that's a dream. But, uh, I mean, in crypto, we dream, man. Like, that's what we do. Yeah. And so like, like, no, I could. Uh, uh, Klima Dow, like, it's tackling a problem that's bigger than nation states. And so the, the magnitude of what this could become, I hope, is also bigger than the nation states. So like Oxylos said, we'll have the links to both the website and the Discord in the show notes.

Obviously, you guys want engaged community members, but is there any more like precise call to action about who you want or what you guys need help with over at the Dow? Join the LBP on Tuesday. I was super stoked to watch that and participate. participate what you think is fair. And then there's like a lot of people that have been reaching out to us who aren't crypto natives, which is really cool to see that are like just climate natives. And they're like, oh, like I'm working on this carbon project. It's, you know, certified under Vera standard, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Can I bring it to clean it out? And we're like, yeah, absolutely. Like, you know, we're starting to coordinate all sorts of people who are, who have never really experienced defy in a profound way, but they understand climate really well. And they're like, okay, this is like something that I can finally, you know, tap into. So, yeah, 100% anyone, it's not just, you know, crypto people. It's now client people, too, that they really want to get involved. Cool.

Guys, any last comments or last words you want to add before we sign off here? I just want to say really appreciate the opportunity here. And David, thanks for all you do for the crypto community. Oh, hey, hey, thanks, man. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, cheers. Cheers, guys. All right, all the listeners, you can find the links to the Discord and website in the show notes.

And if you guys have any more questions about Klimandau, go into the Discord. it sounds like that's where these guys are. Guys, thanks for joining me on this Meet the Nation. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Take care. Cheers. Hey, we hope you enjoyed the video.

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