Bankless - Jito Declares War on Coinbase & Binance | Lucas Bruder on the Launch of JTX

Episode Date: July 15, 2026

Onchain trading infrastructure is reaching a point where it can seriously compete with centralized exchanges. Jito founder Lucas Bruder joins David to introduce JTX, a new prosumer trading terminal built to bring major crypto assets, tokenized equities, perps, and eventually global markets into one onchain experience. --- 📣SPOTIFY PREMIUM RSS FEED | USE CODE: SPOTIFY24 https://bankless.cc/spotify-premium --- BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 🔮POLYMARKET | #1 PREDICTION MARKET https://bankless.cc/polymarket-podcast 📊BITGET | TOKENIZED STOCKS 2.0 https://bankless.cc/bitget-stocks 🎯THE DEFI REPORT | ONCHAIN INSIGHTS https://thedefireport.io/bankless 👑BANKLESS PREMIUM | AD-FREE & BONUS EPISODES https://bankless.cc/spotify-premium --- TIMESTAMPS 0:00 Solana and Tokenized Stocks 2:22 What Is JTX? 8:44 A Better Trading UX 11:25 Better Execution 15:37 The JTX Roadmap 19:35 JTO and SOL Tokenomics 25:23 Why Solana Got Better 29:34 Prop AMMs Explained 37:25 Liquidity and Market Makers 40:04 Solana vs. Robinhood Chain 46:51 The JTX Rollout 48:07 Global Markets and the SOL Thesis --- RESOURCES Lucas Bruder https://x.com/buffalu__ JTX https://x.com/jtx_trade --- Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures

Bankless Nation, I'm here with Lucas Bruder. He is from Gito and he's building something pretty cool. Lucas, welcome back to Bankless, my man. How are you doing? Pretty good. Thanks for having me. It's been a while. It has been a while. It has been a while. We're going to dive into what you're doing over at JTX. I first kind of wanted to just ask, what's going on in the Solana neck of the woods?

Like what's going on over there? Because I'm not really too tapped in. So what's it like being in Solana right now? It's pretty crazy. There's a lot going on. I think there's kind of this weird. mismatch between like the crypto sentiment and the market. I feel like people are still kind of leaning a little bearish,

but I feel like on Solana, it's full steam ahead. And so I would say the top two things going on right now, obviously the Anson and what he's doing has been very popular recently on Twitter. But the other thing that's really cool that we're excited about is all of these tokenized stocks that are coming out. And what backpack and X stocks and Ando and some of these other guys are doing, It's super cool. So, yeah, like getting SpaceX Day 1, some of the memory stocks,

and then today the new memory stock IPO is happening, and that should be listed pretty shortly. So I feel like there's a lot of cool stuff going on in that kind of area right now. Has there been just a market winner or market leader in the tokenized stock camp on Solana yet, or is it still pretty much a pretty fierce competition? I think it's, if you look at volume, I believe, back, Pack is winning. But I would say the number of assets that they have,

I think it's like probably, it's like around five assets where if you look at some of the other providers, it's like tens or hundreds. I think there will be some changes there pretty soon and expect to see a lot more assets listed. So I would say it's still pretty early on in the tokenized stocks,

but I would say that's one thing Solana is really exceeding out right now. There's a few days where tokenized stock volume was higher than meme coins. And it's cool to see that flip. Like we've been talking about it for a while, like Solana's this meme coin chain. And when you see all these tokenized stocks come on, it's like, okay, the thing that we've been preaching

this whole time is finally coming true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that is pretty exciting. Let's get into what you were building at JTX. So you're the founder, CEO of Gito, which is if for people who speak Ethereum, that's if Lido and FlashBots had a baby. so a liquid staking token plus transaction ordering and MEV management all in one product.

Now you're going vertical, you're verticalizing into JTX. Let's talk about JTX. What's JTX and why are you building it? JTX is a pro sumer trading terminal. And so we feel like there's a piece of the market that's missing where Solana execution has gotten really good. But a lot of the tools that exist today are kind of more on the meme coin side of things. And so we're really targeting this prosumer audience. We think there's going to be a ton of assets that come on to Solana, not only like other L1 assets, but tokenized equities. And we feel like

there's kind of a lack of good user experience for those types of traders on Solana today. And so, yeah, we really want to build something that gets more people on chain. There's only so much that you can do at the infrastructure layer to make that happen. And so we spent several months, ideating and decided this is the best way that we can get people on chain. And so, yeah, we've been building this since like the end of March and be rolling out pretty shortly here. So Gito is known to be just extremely technically competent at the block level of Solana, like down in the basement where like the microstructure of Solana really matters.

And you have to be just super intimately familiar with just the pipes of Solana, just like the actual like architecture and foundation. you guys are verticalizing into a consumer application, which makes sense because you guys have the knowledge and the integration about transaction ordering, but it is a new domain for you guys. Like now you're in the world of like user products and user experience.

What makes you think that you can go up there and get out of the basement and into like the front door of and become the front door of Solana? I think that we have the top team on Solana for shipping. And I think if you've looked at our past, like, one valid air client block builder on Solana since like 2022, largest and like deepest liquidity on Gito Sol.

And so I think this is just a natural extension of what we've done. It's going to be way different. And the way that we're thinking about this is way different. And we brought on some more people to help us with this. So like thinking a lot about retention and user growth and like dedicated customer support and like all this stuff that we haven't really done before. And so everyone at Jito is super hungry and we're excited for this challenge and been talking to a lot of people and kind of learning common mistakes and lessons and things like that. And yeah, we're really looking forward to the challenge.

I think it's going to be fun. And yeah, we're going to kind of start with this like Salana native audience that knows us super well. But that's definitely not the end goal. We got to grow the pie. And so we got to expand now from crypto Twitter and find other audiences to come trade. So maybe just simulate for myself and the listeners what JTX like is from a, if I just like go on, is opening up pretty damn soon here. It's got the waitless opening.

And so I'm a user. I'm going up to JTX. And what do I see? How would you explain it to me? The experience that's most equivalent to would be like a centralized exchange. And so I would say very clean user experience. You can see all the assets that are available to trade, very simple order box. we kind of abstract away a lot of like the token specific stuff that yeah like if you if you

go on a centralized exchange the the UI is really clean where if you go into products on Solana it's like oh is that they go to like super and deep on the weeds on all this stuff like is the token frozen and like what is the distribution in the top holders and like all the stuff that you really care about if you're trading meme coins and so it's a very clean ux very good order types that basically like only the pros have access to. So we're giving everyday users access to really cool orders like T-WOPs and we have this thing called SmartFillo we can dive into a little bit. And yeah, just a really, really clean user experience. Someone that is not familiar with crypto can just jump in. We're using Privy for key pair management so you can sign in it

through email. You can set up pass keys and all that. So it's super secure. Markets don't move one asset at a time. One. day it's Bitcoin, the next Nvidia, then gold, and then the S&P. But most traders are still managing their portfolio across different platforms, different accounts, and different pools of capital. BitGet just changed that. Their new Stocks 2.0 products lets you trade tokenized equities directly with USDT, all inside the same app you already use for crypto. This is not just another tokenized stock product. Stocks 2.0 is designed around deeper liquidity, faster execution, and the lowest fees in the market at just 0.04% and one-to-one economic exposure to the underlying stock. Dividend, stock, stock splits,

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the market structure, entry targets, fair market value of Bitcoin and Ether. And where we are in the cycle, there's new episodes that are released every Wednesday. They're 30 minutes. They're short. They're punchy. I think this crypto cycle is harder to navigate than most. So let's do it together. Go subscribe to this podcast. Search the DeFi report. Wherever you get your podcast, YouTube, Apple, Spotify. or find a link in the show notes. There's a new episode waiting for you now. Exchanges of old. The dexes of old would always be pointed towards the people who are pretty like informed

about how a blockchain works. And so therefore they've been designed to be pretty unopinionated. Like don't make choices for me. Like I know what a contract address is. Like I would, I need to know the nature of like what this contract address does. So please inform me. And then it gives all of the like kind of the hardcore trenchers all the tools that need to know to make, you know, an uninformed purchase of a brand new token. But then it's just so

scary to like the retail audience, the people who don't know what they're doing. And so it sounds like you're taking the, you're taking JTX and being more opinionated about what is shown and how it's shown and even what assets are shown. Like, talk about the opinionated choices that you guys are making. I would say not showing a ton of token information is some, one of the opinionated choices that we're making. We are not building this for people in the trenches that are holding, if you look at some of the platforms where people trade meme coins, the average hold time is like less than a minute.

And like at the upper end of it, it's like less than 10 minutes. So we are not building for those people. We're not building for the token that launched five seconds ago where you need to know the distribution. We're building for, I would say maybe like the, you know, one million dollar market cap and up totals. and tokenized equities and majors and things like that. And so I would say that's one thing.

We will, this won't be available at launch, but we're going to do some pretty cool things around equities that no one's done before. So I think the equities experience on Solana leaves a lot to be desired. If you go to any tokenized equity on Solana, there's like, what, there's probably three or four versions of Nvidia at this point. like there's three or four versions of Nvidia. Each one has a different chart

and they reference the on chain chart chart. So like if you look at the price charts there's like a ton of like wicks if there's like low liquidity. And so we'll be doing some interesting stuff around that. And yeah, I'm trying to think what else is opinionated. I would say P&L and like portfolio management

is like the key thing. So people when they're trading, they're not just looking at like what is their current balances. They want to know what has their P&L been over time. What was my entry on this token? Like, what is my unrealized P&L? They kind of think in like terms of risk. So that would be a very important piece of this. So since Gito and you said that you know, Gito is perhaps the best engineering team on Solana. And you guys are like I alluded to earlier is like just intimately

familiar with transaction ordering and not even in familiar, but just like in charge of transaction ordering because of Gito's positioning. How are you leveraging that ability and knowledge inside of JTX? And I'm assuming those things are kind of wired together. So when somebody makes a trade on JTX, Gito's transaction ordering ability provides a better execution price for JTX. I could only assume. Talk about that.

Yeah, there's no like preferential treatment in BAM or anything else for like, oh, this is a JTX transaction. We're going to like treat it differently. But there's a ton of stuff that we've learned over. over time. So like routing transactions, landing them quickly. And then like how do the prop mms work? And, you know, maybe there's specific validators that are doing stuff that we don't want to send these transactions to because they might get sandwich. And just like a ton of different edge cases in the network that we've learned over time. So that's an opinionated choice. So you guys

choose validators or exclude validators based off of their behavior. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty cool. And yeah, so yeah, that's one thing that we do. And then the other thing is one thing, I mean, we do this for basically every prop AMM on Solana is using something that we call a maker priority plugin inside BAM. And so that means that all the makers for these prop AIMs across all these different assets on Solana, they basically get put at the top of the block on Solana inside the BAM blocks. And so this allows them to quote tighter because they don't have to get worried about

they don't have to worry about getting picked off. And so essentially, quotes are really tight. And so you will see that inside BAM where like, you know, the quotes are going to be really tight. You'll be able to see the transactions getting routed through JTX and landing on chain. And we will, I guess one opinionated thing that I just remember it is we have this thing called Good Trade. I don't know if you've used JTX.

I think we gave the access to it. But we have this thing called Good Trade. And so when you swap a token, let's say I want to buy $1,000 of Seoul via USDC on JTX, when you make that trade, we will look at the output amount and we will run that same trade on the best centralized exchanges at the same time and show you how much money you saved on chain compared to Solana. And so we're already saying really good results. It's much cheaper to trade majors on Solana.

And so, yeah, I think some of that's from BAM and some of that's just from like Prop MMs and all the really good teams working at the infrastructure there. So if I'm like buying Bitcoin on Solana or something, or Seoul on Solana or something, you will go and look at Cracken and Coinbase and wherever, Binance or whatever, and then simulate those trades

and then also provide a quote on Solana and a user will be able to see that different. Yeah, exactly. Because yeah, we think Salana execution has really advanced in the past 12 or 18 months. And there's a ton of innovation happening at the Prop A Mem layer, a bunch of stuff on Twitter and like Blockworks is putting out a bunch of good stuff around that too. But execution's gotten really good. But I feel like it's kind of stuck in this like Twitter sphere where like when you say

the best place to buy Solana is on Solana, that kind of like, I feel like, I feel like, I feel People don't believe that, and it's stuck in this Twitter sphere. So in JTX, every time you make a trade, we will rerun that and show you how much money you saved. And so we're really bringing that really good execution quality front and center and show that Solana can beat centralized exchanges when it comes to trading. And I'm assuming if I ask you, is this feature that a centralized exchange has in JTX is that feature that a centralized exchange has? Is it in JTX? The answer is yes. Like that's kind of the point of it.

So like, you know, limit orders, TWOPs, like all that kind of stuff is in JTX. What about perps? Are perps in JTX? Because you guys aren't building an exchange. You guys are building a front end, a consumer experience, transaction ordering technology, but you guys aren't building the exchange. So what about just a perp decks? Is that integrated in JTX?

It won't be at launch, but shortly after launch, we are looking at Phoenix perps and we'll be integrating that. And so they have some really cool technology. They're quickly listing more and more markets. And so we're super excited about that. We have a lot of wood to chop on the best spot experience. We don't want to bite off too much. Once that's a good stay, we want to go into perps and then prediction markets.

And I think a big driver is going to be like what people, what the feedback is and like what people want to trade. So who's your competition then? Are you trying to compete with like the Jupiters or like the pump funds? Or who do you consider yourself to be the competition? Like where do you want to take market share from? I would say the centralized exchanges are our main competition. So, you know, there's, you can look at the pie as like,

I want to take market share from others or I want to grow it. And I think we have been in the business. And one of the reasons why we're so successful is like we are trying to take market share from everyone else, you know, centralized exchanges and like NASDAQ, in New York Stock Exchange and things like that. And so that's the multi-year vision is that's who we're going after. Of course, like a lot of the way that we talk about JTX right now is just focused on Salana Native people.

And that's what we're going to go with. That's our wedge. But I think over time, we will continue to go more and more after centralized exchanges and start to get into the equities as well. Are you going to put an on-ramp into JTX? Yeah. Yeah, we will. There's a few options we're looking at right now.

But yeah, I think most of the people in Solana, they have, they have stolen their wallet already. So, yeah, they're kind of onboarded already. But, yeah, there's a, man, I don't know if you used an on-ramp recently, but some of the fees that those things charge are just insane. Yeah. Yeah, the direct on-ramps,

like the on-ramps onto centralized exchanges are cheap because centralized exchanges have that control. And so if there's, like, fraud, they can lock up your funds, so you can't withdraw from the centralized exchanges. But I would imagine JTX doesn't have that because you guys are non-custodial. And so that's why the direct on-ramps on-chain

have to add fraud into their charges. I would imagine if you're trying to compete to be feature parity with centralized exchanges in the longest of time horizons, JTX would actually have a custodial arm to it so that it can onboard retail or user, who don't yet have assets on Solana. Have you thought about that?

I haven't, no. It's an interesting idea. Yeah, obviously you want the onboarding experience to be super fast and easy. So like debit card, credit card, bank account. And yeah, hopefully there's a good option that we can find that's cheap on fees. But yeah, rolling it in-house could be interesting.

There's definitely, that would be something completely new for us. But I think we could pull it off with our team. And we have Rebecca, too, who's, She says super badass CLO for us. Oh, the Rebecca, the Rebecca, Rebecca Redding. Yeah. Okay, yes. Yes, you do.

Let's talk about a JTO value accrual from JTX. So Gito has a token, is JTO. JTX, no new token. JTO is the token. Talk about how JTX benefits the Jito token. So 80% of the revenue from JTX will go to the Dow. And I think we're trying to to figure out what to do with that. You know, you could do, you could burn it, you could just

have it sit in the Dow. We'll figure out what happens there pretty soon. But 80% of all the fees from JTX will go to the Dow. The other 20% will go to reinvestment. And so as we see more and more people go on to JTX and trade, that will, you know, in turn buy more JTO and send it to the Dow. and all the fees on JTO or on JTX will be used to buy JTO and return it to the Dow. So we're not giving the Dow USDC or any of these like meme coins that might go down 99% that we collect fees in. It's essentially just continually swap to JTO and sent to the Dow.

So Solana has vastly improved its execution is what you've been saying. So the value, your claim, your idea is that Solana execution, is just really, really good. And so what you're doing is you're creating JTX to kind of like wrap up Solana and all of the assets on Solana and all of the very strong execution on Solana. And you're really just wrapping Solana

into a pro-sumer trading experience. And I don't know what the market cap of JTO is, but it's compared to Seoul. Seoul is like what, 40 billion right now, 50 billion, something like that. Multiple tens of billions. and JTO is valued how much? One billion?

The FTV right now is probably like 600 or 700 million. 700 million? Okay, so if you're taking 80% of the trading fees of this trading experience and you're buying JTO and not burning it, but buying it and giving it back to the Dow, why would I ever buy Seoul? If JTX is successful at what it wants to do,

why would I ever buy soul instead of JTX? Well, I think there's going to be, I mean, obviously I hope we capture a huge amount of the market share that exists in trading. But there's going to be a bunch of other stuff happening on Solana that will not be going through JTX. So like arbitrage and things like that are going to be going on people trading meme coins. I think there's been a lot of like even just unrelated to JTX. There's been a lot of cool. and there's been a lot of cool proposals that I think we're going to go to vote soon

on Salana tokenomics. So there's one, I can't even remember the numbers of the SIMDs right now, but there's one that will double disinflation. So it'll basically cut the inflation, the rate that inflation decreases in, it'll double the speed of that. So basically, you know, yield will go down and the amount of tokens being emitted by the protocol will go down.

less cell pressure should help number go up. And then there's another burn one as well that is basically suggesting that that there's a increase in burn based on the number of transactions that the network processes and how many resources they use. Right now the burn in Salon, it's just flat.

And so there's basically a flat fee per transaction. There's no resource-based fee like if there's, you know, computationally heavy transactions or super cheap transactions, the amount of burn that changes on the network, it doesn't exist. And so I would say those two proposals, there's other stuff coming to that should really help,

you know, and make Solana deflationary. So the idea of like, so in Ethereum, which is the economic system that I'm familiar with, if there's just like enough slack in the system, the fees are zero. That's not true with Solana. There's a base fee. there's some priority fees as well.

Blocks are not full right now. There will be some spikes where they're full, but I think they're probably around 50 to 60% full right now. There's still a lot of priority fees being paid, though. A lot of traders and arbitrages and things like that have a need for speed and they're willing to pay for it. So the bulk of soul burn comes from the priority fees, the contention?

No, the bulk of priority fees is basically just a function of how many transactions are being processed today. So there's just straight volume. Straight volume. Yeah. Yes. Straight transaction volume. Those could be like a lot of, yeah, it's just based on the transaction count, essentially.

Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, if we can get the rate of inflation down and then charge based on the, essentially on the block size, then that would be super helpful for sole tokenomics, especially as we start to see basically every new, asset that comes on chain that people want to trade. There's a prop AMM spun up for it. And, you know, there's like probably 10 or 20 prop AMMs. So like you take every prop AMM, they need to send an Oracle on chain. There's, you know, every new equity that comes on chain is going to have a prop AMM. And so the amount of transactions that are going to be generated as and more and more assets

come on chain is just going to be insane. When you say execution on Solana has gotten drastically better over the last like 18 months, is that because of the prop AMMs? Like how much of that is due to Prop AIMS? Yeah, I would say there's two main things. One, I would say, is just core protocol work. So the work that Alenza and Firedance and us and other core client teams are doing to make the network faster. I don't know if you use, I think last time we chatted, it was like right around the Gito irdrop, maybe shortly after.

If you used the chain back then, it was just like a nightmare to use, like transactions wouldn't land. Basically, everyone was landing transactions through Gito because the normal pipeline was just super, it was just buggy and not good. And so there's been a ton of really good work at the core protocol there. Blocks are going up and they're like getting bigger and bigger.

The core client teams that we should get, we should almost double block size within the next month, I would say. And so that's going to help a lot too. So yeah, one is all the work going on there. And then I would say the other thing that led to execution improvements would definitely be the prop AMMs. And so, yeah, those are just really efficient at expressing the, like, what the market maker wants to do. And they're kind of putting the market maker logic on chain. It's really, really cheap to update the pricing for that asset just because of the way it works.

And yeah, I guess, like the explain like them five is like if you're running an order. order book and you want to shift your orders around. You have to go to every tick and like cancel it. So you have to cancel all these orders and then like move your mid over and like replace all the orders. Where these prop AMMs, they kind of just, they have this curve and then they can basically just shift this point around. And so shifting that that midpoint price, it's super cheap.

It's like, I think the cheapest prop AMM Oracle update is like sub 100 cost unit. where if you want to make a trade on order book, it's like 40,000. So just that massive. This is like an engineering efficiency, innovation in terms of just like putting market maker logic on chain. It's just like a way better way to do it. Yeah, it's been really cool to see too.

So yeah, I think there's like the super OG one called Lafinity. They shut down recently, but the next main one was Solfi from the ellipsis team, the team that's billing perps. So they were like the first team that created this next generation of prop AMMs. And now we have like humidify and bisonfi who's run by jump trading or jump crypto and, you know, scorch and Taserra and all these prop AMs. And then you start seeing prop AIMs pop up on base and other L2s.

And now we're seeing prop AIMs go onto Ethereum. And they're doing on Ethereum, they're doing similar stuff to like, BAMs maker priority plugin where they have top of bat, the block builders like Titan and others can like receive prop BAMM updates and get all these super tight spreads that are like tighter than the tightest centralized exchange onto all these chains. And so that's been something really cool to see that. Like that's born on Salana and then now we're seeing it on L2s and Ethereum.

And I think there's some people doing it on Robin Hood chain as well. And that's just been really cool to see that. innovation being born on Solana and like taking that to other chains. And I think, you know, hopefully all these other chains can offer spreads that are tighter than the tightest centralized exchange pretty soon. What's the AMM word doing in a prop AMM? Is that accurate? Do you explain that to me?

Let's say it's accurate enough to get the point across. Okay, so like an AMM is like what Unoswap invented, you know, X times Y equals K, or whatever that exchange is. been a while since I've thought about that equation. And then the idea of a prop AMM is like, you know, with Uniswap v3, something that we saw, maybe this was even happening in Uniswap v2, was that we would, you would see just in time liquidity

come in on the Uniswap V3 curve. And the Uniswap V3 curve had concentrated liquidity so you could, well, X times Y equals K was a constant slope. The slope didn't change. What Uniswap V3 brought to the table is you could add liquidity just in a particular band on that slope. And so parts of that slope would have very high liquidity and it would be around the mid-market price of an asset.

And then the tails of the slope would have no liquidity because why would you ever provide liquidity for like $10 aeth? Like just don't do that. Or a million-dollar eth also don't do that. You know, hopefully one day, but no. And so what we saw is we saw kind of in the MEV world, we would see people come in and provide very high liquidity when they saw in the mempool somebody coming and slapping a $1 million

$1,000 ETH USD buy. And so they would provide liquidity to capture the majority of those fees just in time inside of the concentrated liquidity. It sounds like that's what prop AMMs are doing. But rather than viewing the mempool, the logic for that is on chain? Is that the kind of the core innovation? Kind of, yeah, they, every prop AMM has its own curve

and they will change the curves over time. So there's a really cool... And so that's why we call it an AMM because it's a curve. Yeah, and there's some logic on chain where every prop AMM is different, but they can like widen their spreads and change the way the curve works. So if you go, there's a really cool website.

People can view. If you go to Sandwich.me, if you go on the left side, there's a prop AMM section. And so you can see the curves from all these different market makers and the spreads on chain. And so, yeah, you can click through some of these,

like, if you, like, go to Bison Phi, you can look to see their spreads are pretty tight right now, like half a bit, and they have a really steep curve. And then if you go to some of the other ones, you know, their curves are a little wider and maybe not as steep. So, yeah, this is the,

this is a unified sole USDC. You have all a curve. curves and then you can click in to the aggregate curves of all the prop amms of the sole USC market correct yeah right and so if I click on one of these this is like one of one of the curves and when you add them all together they come you you see the the net curve and this is just an order book it's kind of an order book yeah it's like a it looks like it looks like an order book yeah it's a it's a implied order book it's an implied order book yeah so yeah you can see here that for 100 Seoul depth on Solana right now, you can get less than a BIP spread. That's just

like insane. And so I don't think that's going to stop with Seoul. We're seeing it on Bitcoin, Zcash, hype, SpaceX. We'll probably see it on that South Korean memory stock that gets listed today. And so basically, like, I think that this is not a trend that's going to slow down. And like, when we started looking at building JTX, we're like, okay, things are definitely trending on the right direction and like prices are getting good. There's more asset issuance coming on to Solana. And so it's like this is going to be really big and it's already beating. It's already being centralized exchanges. I think it's going to start beating if it hasn't already. Some of these more like New York Stock Exchange and NASDAX on prices and you run it 24-7,

totally permissionless. So yeah, things are happening. Me and Mike and Bolito have been pounding this from for a while where crypto, defy, dexes, blockchains are never going to surpass centralized exchanges unless we can get price discovery to happen natively on chain.

Who determines the price of something, like what the Oracle is? Right now it's Binance. It's been Binance for a while. Second place is Coinbase, but we need it to happen on Ethereum or Solana or some make it happen on the blockchain. And if we don't have native price discovery, if we are

not the place where price is determined, then you're kind of just, use my language, cucked by whoever is doing price discovery. And so having price discovery happening natively on chain is such a golden goose. It's such a trophy.

And it's like, the last time I talked to him about this was like a number of years ago, but we just seemed to have stalled out in getting native price discovery on chain. This is why like meme coins are always on Ethereum. They're always denominated in ETH on uniswap. It's because that's just like,

you know, meme coins launched on Ethereum and also on Solana and in Salana, it's, you know, the meme coin is paired with Seoul. And that's, you know, the meme coin price discovery happens on chain. And that's why it's actually kind of like cypher punk. But then as soon as like with volume dominates on like Binance or Solana, then we kind of like lose that, that chain dominance. So what I'm saying here with Prop AIMs is like we have a new venue

for getting price discovery on bigger pairs, USC Seoul, USC Bitcoin to happen on chain. And so like there's been just this forever arms race between order books on centralized exchanges and you know, AMMs on blockchains and AMMs have been really constrained. But now we have prop AMMs, which is starting to look like an order book. And so this is actually kind of giving me some renewed hope that we can get price discovery for the world's biggest assets to happen on chain. Do you think we can get that done? Oh, 1,000 percent. I think we'll be seeing that, I mean, there kind of already is starting to be price discovery. There's definitely price discovery on hyperliquid. I think Solana would be there very shortly just in like the

off venue hours. So, you know, stocks don't trade 24-7. So there'd be some price discovery there. And yeah, I think this is, I think that Solana is not the right environment to run order books. I think it's going to be prop AMMs for the future. not only on Solana, but basically, essentially every chain, unless you're like 100% dedicated to order books or like an app chain. And, yeah, I think this is super bearish on just like traditional AMMs because those can never do price discovery because they rely on people arbitraging the price to bring it in line.

where if you look at Prop A-Ms, there's actually like people that are making these markets and they're moving them around without getting arbitrage where like the, if you make like a SpaceX USC pair on Uniswap, that's not going to be constantly discovering the correct price. It's just going to be people, other people that are going to arbitrage against it.

And so this, I think prop A-MMs on Solana are just going to be massive for, making price discovery happen on there. One thing that is nice about AMMs, like vanilla AMMs, is you can see all the liquidity. Like you can see how much USC is in the ETHUSDC pair and Ethan. And like, you just have that information. With prop AMMs, we don't have that because a lot of logic is held off chain by the

prop AMM. Is that true? Well, I mean, we were just looking at the curves. It's like you can see the curves. Right. But I mean the liquidity just like disappear inside of like a couple blocks? Yeah, I mean, that can happen on like a normal AMM too. Like if someone is the main. I guess that the prop AMMs are, you know, it's just one market maker running it.

Where, you know, hopefully in the AMMs on like Ethereum, there's multiple liquidity providers. And the thing is on Solana, everyone is using an aggregator. So everyone's using Jupiter or Dflow or Titan or any of these other aggregators. And so they are constantly looking at the curves of all these. prop AMMs and trying to route to the best venue for prices. And so if a market maker goes down, they need to, you know, it's a bug or they need to upgrade their program or whatever, like that, AMM will just get pulled from the route. And like, they'll route to the other market makers.

And so you have a lot of, there's a lot of like robustness at the aggregation there, which is what most people are doing. people aren't going to like bisonfi.com and only swapping against that. They want to get all the venues hooked together. So there's a lot of like robustness going on there. And it can handle like a market maker going down. And then you, yeah, you just get really good competition. And like people want to get more flow.

So they're quoting tighter. And these aggregators are like choosing which one to go to. So there's a lot of like really cool stuff and like kind of nerd out here a little bit. But like this is what I love. I feel like we know a lot about this and kind of just ties back into what we're doing with JTX and really understanding a lot of the nuance here.

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Yeah, yeah. I mean, what I'm seeing is just like a growing richness of on-chain capital markets. Like this is what on-chain capital markets would look like. It's a little bit more on this subject. so I can understand it more. Like, one of the conversations that's happening right now is the Cash Cat token on Robin Hood chain that recently just, like, bumped because Robin Hood's all about beams now.

And people are, like, looking at the liquidity of Cash Cat versus the liquidity of the Ansem token on Solana. And we kind of have just, like, a control study or like an A-B test of like, look at the liquidity of Cash-Cat and look at the liquidity of Anson, the Insem coin. And people are, like, pointing at the Ansem coin and saying, like, look at Cash-Cat has three, times the liquidity on Robin Hood chain than Ansem has in the Anson coin on Solana. Is that a fair comparison or are the prop AMS, you know, also, there's also liquidity inside of the prop AMS that aren't being measured there? How does the prop AIMM conversation fit there? I don't know if the prop AMMs are quoting Ansem right now. I mean, it's definitely a comparison you can make. I'm not really sure what you can like do with that information

but uh all the liquidity dashboards like bird eye and helius and those guys and JTX we use bird eye on the back end they should track the liquidity the uh on the prop A mums and so yeah if there's liquidity on prop A mms it'll show up but yeah I think the the Robin Hood stuff's really interesting it's just like I had a tweet the other day about it's like

you might make things for like real world of use cases, but you don't really get to decide what people trade. What happens on the chain, yeah. Yeah. There's a people just want to, there's a subset of people that just want to degen and that's fine. And like for Solana, that was the best thing because it really stressed the network and it's why it's so far ahead and able to handle like the SpaceX IPO and what's going to happen later today. What if a lot of assets happen, land on Robin and Hachain that people want to trade? And they're not going to be available. in JTX because JTX just hooks into Solana.

Would you integrate something like any other chain other than Solana? Yeah, we're open to it. I would say it's not the highest priority, but definitely open to it. I think the Robin Hood obviously is insane, incredible distribution, and it's going to be really good for them helping bootstrap that chain.

But there's also, Solana has really good distribution too. So I think it'll be interesting to see what happens. I think you know who I'm rooting for, but yeah, I'm definitely monitoring the situation. When I remember listening to Will Warren from Zero X Macha, listening to his talk at East Denver, and it was kind of an indictment of prop AMMs on Salon. Like some of them have good behavior, but he was specifically calling out the bad behavior of a few prop AIMs that would just like leave in bait transactions.

and so they would set the price with a bait transaction, but then they would yonk the bait transaction and somebody would try and sell a token into that bait transaction, and it was just toxic behavior to just max extract. And it's just, you know, it's Darwinism, survival of the fittest, definitely fits into that camp. And then like a few toxic prop amms would kind of spoil it for the rest of them. So the rest of them were kind of dragged down into the market

and kind of just really made execution toxic for retail. What's going on with that? And does JTX protect users in any particular way from toxic prop AIMM quoting? So, yeah, I think some of those games were going on on Solana several months ago. There was, I think, a lot of, there's a lot of public data on what was going on. So you could see some prop AMMs playing these games. I think a lot of, like, social shaming happened not only on Solana, but I've seen bits and pieces that I talk.

And, you know, there's some social, social shaming. gaming going on there too. I think there's a few things that you can do to mitigate this and that people on Solana and likely ZeroX team are doing too. So one is you can just watch what these prop mms are doing over time. And if they are starting to play games, if you own the distribution, like Jupiter or Dflow and this is like the top of funnel where people are coming in, you can just be like, stop it. I'm going to like disconnect you. And or I'm going to like, route less flow to you. And I'm sure there's some of that going on. You know, I don't know. There's probably some of that going on. The other thing that's really cool that we've started

to see more recently. And I think every aggregator does this now is some forms of like on-chain routing. So this matters a lot more for high performance networks with low slot times like Solana. But if you want to buy Seoul USDC, that aggregator will look at the chain state and they'll be like, okay, like, I'm going to go to these two prop AMMs and this AMM because that's the best price right now. And then, you know, they'll build a quote for you. You send your transaction, it lands. That can be like a second or two. On Solana, a lot can happen in that second or two. Like the prop AMMs can widen out or like maybe liquidity on the AMM gets pulled or something like that. And so we're seeing more AMMs or more of these aggregators put their actual routing logic all

to Solana. And so they'll be like, okay, these AMMs have shown that they can quote tight. And so here's like some information that the program can use on chain. Like here's the AMMs to look at. And I will route the transaction and like build the flow and like how much gets pulled from what decks on chain. So I can actually look at the live price as opposed to, you know, having this like snapshot that's stale. So that's definitely helped a lot. Those two things have helped a lot. And then, like,

you know, I'm sure aggregators do like some statistics and all this stuff on like who's quoting the best. So they'll, they'll kind of buy us flow there. But I think that's a solve problem at this point. And we use Dflow. They have some on-chain routing. So, you know, don't really have to worry about that. Good to hear. Good to hear. Let's talk about the rollout of JTX. So you guys are opening up the waitlist, a pretty big wait list on the 14th, 14th or 15th. We're recording this the week before, but listeners are hearing it the week of. How does somebody get access to JTX?

And then what's the plan, the short-term plan for like the next few months? So we will be rolling out on the 14th. We're going by the number of referrals that you have. So if you're in the top like 10% or something, you'll get access earlier than if you have less referrals. So we're going to roll that out gradually, over time over the next week or so.

And yeah, it's going to be really cool to see. This is like a total MVP. And so there's definitely a lot more that we have planned. This is not the final product. I would say there's a lot of stuff that we're doing behind the scenes on like more data. So that will be no one else. We'll have a feature and no one else has. I think a lot of traders will really like on the data side.

And then roll into equities, perps and prediction markets after. and just keep iterating, you know, discovering bugs. What do people want and try to ship those as fast as possible? And what did you have for over the longest-term horizons? I know you guys are just focused on the here and now, but like, I don't know, what do you want JTX to look like by the end of the year and into the future?

Yeah. I would say that you will be able to trade any asset in the world on JTX. If somebody comes and issues it on Solana. Maybe we'll go off Solana, But I think that maybe not go off Salon, but, you know, add these other chains. But there's a, if you've been paying any attention on Twitter, you can kind of see where things are heading. Definitely in the equities world. And I think within the next probably six to nine months, you will be able to trade any stock in any country in the world on chain.

And so, you know, that's the future that we're preparing for. there's a lot going on at the product level at different companies, and then hopefully we see clarity go through and the SEC exemption come through as well. And so that's definitely the direction. Things are heading and that's where we're going. Lucas is sole undervalued? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, if you want to be a good investor, you have to... There's a podcast with Tushar the other day. He's like, yeah, usually if I'm feeling like an idiot for being in the industry, that's when I should buy. And I'm feeling like a genius, that's when I should sell. So it's pretty clear from the inside where things are heading on Solana. It's going to take a bit to get there.

But if you want to be a good investor, you have to get ahead of these things. And so I think it's, I think it's undervalued for sure. I suppose there is being undervalued because crypto is potentially undervalue. You know, Bitcoin is at $64,000. Ether is at $1,800. Solana is at $78. Do you think Solana is uniquely undervalued compared to the rest of the crypto industry?

Yes. Because of all the prop A-Mam, the execution, tokenized stocks, all that kind of stuff? Yeah. I think there's a few reasons, I would say, a lot of the SIMD and protocol improvements that we were talking about earlier around inflation and burning,

there's tokenized equities. I think there's a lot of stuff that we're going to bring via JTX to get people trading more. and also get people that don't trade on chain to trade on Salonamore. There's a ton of protocol improvements coming, so we're going to go from 60 million to 100 million block size within the next month or so.

And I would say the best teams win by iterating the fastest. And I would say no one is iterating faster than Solana across all the teams, not only teams that exist today, but the new teams that are coming up to. And so, like, if you just look at the pace of iteration on Solana, between the protocol and all the people working on it, and compare that to any other ecosystem, it's by far the best and the fastest iterating.

And so, like, yeah, you can look at the current state of the world in crypto and, like, be bearish, but it's hard to do that if you just look at the state of iteration on Solana. Cool. Lucas, thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for having me. Bankless station, you guys know the deal. Crypto is risk.

you can lose what you put it in, but nonetheless, this is Frontier. It's not for everyone, but we are glad you're with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot.