Bankless - Justin Aversano | Layer Zero

Episode Date: December 7, 2021

Justin Aversano is the now-famous photographer behind the NFT project Twin Flames, but that doesn’t even begin to cover it. Starting with his birthday project titled Every Day is a Gift, Justin has relentlessly pursued his creative passions, backed by his own personal journey of grief, healing, and growth. Justin has a unique, powerful, and intense story—the grief of his mother passing from cancer and the trauma of losing a twin in the womb inspired a years-long quest for discovery and healing. You can feel the creativity and emotion in his work, and his Twin Flames project has seen tremendous success in both the physical and digital realm. Describing NFTs as the Digital Twin of the Physical Reality, the cohesion of his work and individuality surface as we explore why art matters, and what drives the creative mind. ----- 📣 METAMASK | YOUR HARDWARE WALLET'S BEST FRIEND https://bankless.cc/metamask-shows  ------ 🚀 SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/  🎙️ SUBSCRIBE TO PODCAST: http://podcast.banklesshq.com/  ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 💰 GEMINI | FIAT & CRYPTO EXCHANGE https://bankless.cc/go-gemini​  💧LIDO | DECENTRALIZED STAKING https://bankless.cc/Lido  👻 AAVE | LEND & BORROW ASSETS https://bankless.cc/aave  🦄 UNISWAP | DECENTRALIZED FUNDING https://bankless.cc/UniGrants  ------ Resources: Justin on Twitter: https://twitter.com/justinaversano?s=20  Justin’s Website: https://www.justinaversano.com/  Quantum Art Discord: https://discord.com/invite/quantum-art  SaveArtSpace: https://twitter.com/saveartspace?s=20  ----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/bankless-disclosures 

Welcome to Layer Zero. Layer Zero is a podcast of unscripted conversations of the people that make up the Ethereum community. Crypto is built by code, but it's composed by people, and each individual member of the crypto community has their own story to tell. Cyphopunks understood that the code they write impacts the people that use it. And Layer Zero focuses on the people behind the code because Ethereum is people all the way down, and it always has been. Today I'm talking with Justin Aversano, the now famous photographer of the Twin Flames Project, and before that the birthday project. And Justin is a strapping young lad, clocking in at 28 years old or maybe 29.

And it's really just been all about art. His entire life is one of those guys that wakes up in the morning and just thinks about creating art first and foremost. And also when he goes to bed, just creating art through and through and through. While I tend to recap stories in these intros, I'm going to try my best to not do that and just give you guys some themes. Justin has a very unique story, a relationship with his mother, a twin lost in the womb, and has used photography to tell stories and then accidentally tell a story about himself and then very much begin to do that on purpose. And he's used art and photography to connect so many different components about his life in a way that was healing to him as an individual and then ultimately arrives at the world of NFTs in January.

of 2021. And we talk about how NFTs represent just a great climax to the story at large. So what the project that he has, Twin Flames, which is now wrapped. He has now moved on to his new projects, but has really put a fantastic, just bow on top of two fantastic stories of creating these very deep projects with photography and has now completely just redefined what it means for him to be an artist. And so him and I unpack the significance of NFTs as a means for creating meaning. Is it just some code and is it just a bunch of crypto people like me saying that NFTs are the most magical thing on the universe?

Or is it actually what we say it is as NFTs do allow for human culture and human art to be manifested in ways that could not have been done before. Justin has its own opinions on that. And so I will let him speak now before I go on for too long. But first, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible. Gemini is the world's most trusted cryptocurrency exchange. I've been a customer of Gemini since I first got into crypto in 2017, and it's been my main exchange of choice to make my crypto buys and sells.

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Stake any amount of your eth to the Lido validating network and receive ST-Eth in return. This ST-Eth can be traded, used as collateral for lending or borrowing, or leveraged on your favorite D-Fi protocol, and all this without locking up your ETH in a centralized staking service or exchange. That's what Lido is here to do. Lido makes staking accessible to everyone at the click of a button. By delegating your stake to Lido's network of nodes, you can access the use. yield offered by proof of stake systems and claim your share of network transaction rewards.

Do you have 32Eth and wants to stake it to Ethereum but running a node sounds intimidating? Or maybe you have less than 32Eth and you need to pool your ETH with others so you can access staking yields. Lido offers a solution to both. Simply go to Lido.fi, choose which assets you want to stake and deposit them to the Lido validating network. Lido is making sure proof of stake stays as decentralized as possible and is committed to decentralizing its own validating networks to eventually become a completely permissionless protocol. So if you want to stake your ETH, Terra, or Sol, and get liquidity on your stake, go to Lido.FI to get started. Hey, Justin. How's it going? How's it going? Welcome to Layer Zero. You're going to be one of the biggest

new NFT person on the Layer Zero shows. Usually this is about the coders, the cryptographers, the system designers. You are a big artist. a big user, one of the big users of these platforms. I'm really excited to unpack how you've gotten into the world of crypto to bring your creative artistic expression into our world. So welcome. Thanks for having me. So, Justin, a lot of people will know you as the artist behind the Twin Flames NFT project,

but I want to start way, way back, all the way back. When did you get into photography? And was it your first love of, like, creative expression? Man, we're going back. Yeah. So, you know, I've always been a photographer practically most of my life. I'm 29 years old. I started photography around the same time I started skateboarding. So for me, those two things went hand in hand. And I was around 12 or 13, really coming out of being a gamer. Basically, since I was two years old, I was a gamer from Nintendo, Super Nintendo onto every console you could imagine. And then following, in love with the outside of worlds, with skateboarding and photography. But through the time growing up, I was always drawing and I was always creating scenes and, you know, making different

theatrical stuff with my toys and also drawing and visualizing and being a visionary through my ideas and really activating it through photography when I started middle school. And then like, how did a camera actually like come into your hands? You know, I was, I was inspired on MySpace by all the older guys who were skateboarders, and I fell in love with what photography they were shooting. And I just wanted to be a photographer, too. And I was inspired by, you know, a melon photo that was a macro of the ridges. and, you know, things like that were, like, inspiring to me.

And they were my favorite skateboarders at the time growing up in the neighborhood. So, you know, it's kind of like monkey see, monkey do. You're inspired by people in your community who are older, and you want to be like them. You want to do what they're doing because it's cool. And for me, skateboarding and photography were those things that really got me out of the house, made me a healthier person, more social. So in a way, it really, like, allowed me to come out of my show. I do remember having a decent number of skateboarding friends, like growing up in middle school and high school.

And it's funny, it seems like the longer that they went on in the world of skateboarding, more and more of them got into, like, photography and videography because they all wanted to take, like, sick videos and sick photos of them skateboarding. So there seems to be like this interesting pairing between skateboarders and like either film or photography. Exactly. And that's what I was experiencing. And then, you know, always being a skater and skating with my camera very dangerously with my camera around my chest. But I just was, it was a natural. I never really fell on it. Only like a couple times. But it was a strong camera. And, you know, you go around and, you know, you shoot the photography of the skateboarders. But more importantly, like, I just photographed what I loved. And I was a street photography. photographer from the beginning. And in art school, I was really actively doing street portraiture, street photography. And then by the end of art school, I moved into, like, closer in on the subject and actually started taking really dynamic portraits.

You're really giving me some throwbacks. I actually, like, photography was how I had my own, like, budget in college. Like, I always had my Nikon around my neck. And, like, all photographers know that there's this inevitable, like, hug of war behind like having your camera around you at all times and inevitably like breaking it somehow because like the more that you have it around you like the more likely you're just going to like bump into something and then like it's just it's always this like liability what kind of camera did you like first get really really good at um i'll tell you a little funny story so my first camera

I ordered um I was a bus boy at my dad's restaurant when I was 13 and I wanted to buy a camera and I was on Amazon and I bought a Canon XTI around Christmas time, Black Friday-ish, and I had bought it. And in the description, it said, oh, it comes with a lens, it comes with the camera. And I got the camera in the mail, and I'd spent like 500 bucks on this thing,

and it had no lens. So I was like, where the fuck is the lens? So I emailed the Amazon thing, customer support. And I was like, hey, guys, you guys advertised that this comes with a lens, and it didn't come with a lens. Can you please send me a lens? And then they responded.

And for me, I was like, wow, I'm a 13-year-old. And I'm like coming at them with some legal jargon. And, you know, I was like, I need a lens, man. And then they were like, oh, we weren't supposed to, you know, have a lens with this camera. But, you know, since we advertised it that way, we'll send you one for free. And I'm like, great. So I basically got a free lens.

And I got it in the mail. And for those that don't know, lenses can. be even more expensive than the actual body of the camera oftentimes. So having a free lens, it's not like a tip. Like it's sometimes it's the whole entire thing. So, so yeah, I got the lens in the mail. And then I was excited. I finally put the two pieces together because I've been sitting with this camera mirrorless for like a fucking week. And then I got the lens. And then the first photo I ever took really was of my mom. And that was to me like one of the most important moments of my life. Do you still have that photo?

Yeah. Yeah. Did you, you likely didn't realize that it was going to be such an important moment at the moment of taking the photo, right? You know, it was like a fun moment. But every time I think about that moment, it was like, it set a whole course for my entire rest of my life. And when I look at that photo and I look at her looking at me and she passed away a few years ago, it's really like a powerful image of how she's looking at me. Because for me, it was, you know, the really time, really the first time as a young adult, I actually, looked into my mom's eyes or had that connection with her through something other than

just being around at the house and whatnot going around town. But really like engaging in a way that I haven't with my mom before. And it was so powerful. And it really like, it inspired the rest of my life and career and gave me strength to be an artist because I don't know. Just that gesture and look she gave me was like all I ever needed to get the hit the ground running and be who I am today. Were you having these reflections like relatively around the moment of you taking the photograph? No. Are you saying that no? No. This has been current, like every time I think of that photo, it really strikes me. I think maybe in hindsight and retroactively thinking of when I took that photo and how beautiful the light and like my mom's look at me and her being.

you know, fighting cancer and like all these different things. In that moment, it was just pure joy and fun. And I'm testing out the camera. But when I look at that photo, it's like more meaningful than a test shot. It's like, this is like a memory of my mom that like literally was like the first picture I've ever taken in my life. Was she posing or was it candid? It was like a candid acceptance look.

I just can't. It's like, fine, you can take a photo of me type of look. Just like gentle and like, you know, a guard is down and really like opening herself up, you know, accepting this photo shoot and not being insecure, you know, because it's easy to be insecure when you're, you know, going through cancer and, you know, it's tough. But for me, it was like, it's, it was strength for both of us. It was a moment that really connected us as mother and son like, like never before. Do you think it has anything to do with the fact that when you take a photograph, you're taking a snapshot in time and you're given the ability to reflect upon that one specific snapshot in greater detail because you actually have something to look at, right? Like you, well, no, I'm not looking at my mom. I'm looking at a photograph of my mom and I can pause and, you know, zoom in and analyze and parse apart and look at a picture of my mom that kind of like you were saying, you had never looked at your mom in that way before. And it was probably, you know, I think a lot of us go around our loved ones that, you know, they're putting the dishes away. They're just living their life in your apartment. And you kind of forget to really look at them.

And is that kind of what you're saying with like, you? Oh, 100%. Like, it's not a look. It's being seen in the most honorable, respectful, like, intimate way you can be present with someone. It really was being present with someone in the most ultimate way. And this was a digital photographer, right? Not a film? Yeah, when I started photography, I bought a digital camera.

And then when I went into art school in 2010, so I was shooting from, let's say, 2005 till 2010 is when I got into college. And that's when I started shooting film. Because that was the first, you know, the first assignment was go in the dark room and print and develop your negatives. And coming from digital, I honestly fell in love with being in the dark room and seeing the magic of the paper come to life when you're shaking the negative chemistry. And that's when I was like, I am never shooting digital ever again. I remember taking photography class in high school, which was a film class with a dark room. And this wasn't really much of a problem back then. But everyone, you know, even high schoolers were like constantly on their phones those days.

And the dark room is such like an oasis because it's dark. Like you can't bring your phone in there. It messes up the photographs. And not only that, but like when you're in the dark room, you only have one thing to focus on, which is a deep connection to the creative process. There's nothing else to think about. Kind of like a sensory deprivation tank,

except the only sense that you have is the creation of the photograph. And it's a little bit of a surreal experience these days because like you're totally cut off from the beeps and the sounds and the LCD screens. And you only have. this one deep creative thing to think about. Am I kind of tapping into the energy that you're like dark rooms for? I mean, it's like a, it is a sensory deprivation room and the only light that you see is the 10 seconds when you're exposing the paper. And then you're like fumbling around in the dark trying to make sure that paper's in the paper safe and you don't fucking expose it

because you forgot to put it in there. Justin, what was your relationship with the internet at this time? Because the average, like, crypto coder that I talk to on these layer zeros, they all kind of tell me a similar story of like, oh, yeah, I got a computer really relatively early in my life. What was your relationship with the internet? So my first experience with the computer was really to play, like, Lego Land as a kid and having fun with Rollercoaster Tycoon. And, like, I'm a huge, I was a huge gamer. I have love for it. And I think gaming really led me into computers, World of Warcraft. and all those games online

and those websites that existed early 2000s that we all probably went on. E. Baum's World and all those weird fun games. And so that was my experience with the internet and then AIM and just messaging. Then it went to Myspace. A lot of computer gaming like Battlefield 2042 as a youngling.

And just always being a gamer, and knowing how to navigate just the computer for that and hitting up my friends to go hang out. But nothing about uploading your digital photographs into some photo editor or anything like that? Oh, I mean, yeah, Photoshop. Yeah? Yeah, using Photoshop on the computer.

Right, but then you went into the dark room and were like, oh, this is way better? Yeah, but I still use Photoshop just to put my stuff online. Was there ever a moment where you're like, oh, yeah, I want to make money doing this passion, this photography, and then how did you actually go about achieving that? You know, it's funny. Like, when I was in school, I never really thought about making money.

I only thought about making art and learning and being educated and using my time at SVA School of Visual Arts to just keep learning and having fun. And it never really was about money. And even like seeing everyone else in school, like shooting for Vogue, shooting for, shooting for Gucci, whatever brands. I was like, I never wanted to be a commercial photographer anyway. I was pretty much more so trained to want to be a museum photographer or, you know, some sort of serious artists, like a warhol of our generation, someone who really made an impact and created works that people can't forget. And I think, you know, that was always my drive. It wasn't ever about money. It was always about, you know, the work and the creation and what makes it

relevant and what makes people care. And, you know, I think to be a good artist, you really got to just, you know, have the drive to want to be seen and create everlasting things that are timeless and, you know, have a place in history that makes you different. So when you're making these photographs in the dark room, that's not the last step, of course, in the creative process. The last step is actually displaying these things in a way that also have an impact. So if you're creating this art for the sake of creating art, what was your plan for actually expressing this art to the rest of the world? Because again, if you're not money-driven, you are art-driven. What is the performance, if you will about how to display your photographs.

I think a lot of it comes from, you know, there's a lot of practice involved. And to create a project like Twin Flames or even every day is a gift, the birthday project, it just comes from pure inspiration in a divine moment at any point in time that really sets the tone for a whole project. But prior to those major projects, I was just in creation mode. I was finding what I like to shoot. I was finding my style. I was building consistency in the way I shoot.

Learning the craft, learning everything about the printing processes, all sorts of them, alternative process, silk screen process, like really finding out what I really love to do and what I really didn't like to do and filtering through using school and learning philosophy

and attributing philosophy to the concepts of the work. You know, it was really just a huge filtering process of where I want to take this and what is my communication through the medium that I want to create. And so honestly, the only major project I did during art school was the birthday project. And it was my first taste in like, wow, this is a serious project that people can stand by and understand when they see it. And that's just a project where I photograph someone every day of the year with a Polaroid camera on their birthday without missing a day. And I did that every single day in 2012 to 2013 as a senior thesis project. And then from there on out, I really stopped

taking random type of photos, and I started really thinking heavily in projects and themes. And I think learning about other photographers works in the history of photography or in contemporary art, you see that they all work in different themes that tell a bigger story than just the one photograph. and I think that's where I started, that's where my aha moment was, oh, I need to make a serious project. And it was the birthday project. And then it took me time to find twin flames and really activate that and start making that work. So there's a lot of famous photographers out there. And the classic example is Ansel Adams.

And he has these great images that you can look at. And you can just look at them and just be astounded by how they look as an, individual photograph. But you're talking about the art itself isn't the single photograph, or not even the whole entire project at large, but it's also the process of creating the project that is also the art. So it seems to me that you're making a hybrid of what the art actually is, is a hybrid of good, fantastically composed photography of a bunch of common themes, but also really the art is the story of how it was created. Is that true? Yeah. You need story. It's the mythology. We're creating mythology as we're shooting and in time. You know,

we look at the Greeks and the sculptures and the marble and, you know, the Renaissance, Jesus paintings. And, you know, where are we in that timestamp of history in the 2000s, 2010? And for me, you know, using classic portraiture and film cameras and a theme, that's where I made my mark, I would say. And it is a balance between the subject and the story because the subject conveys the story that's being told in the greater narrative of the cohesive project that goes together. And then when you see it exhibited together or in a book, you get the story without even have to reading the artist statement. Right. So your first project was the birthday project. I think we'll go into more detail in just a second. But when was there the aha moment?

of that this piece of art that you're about to create is not just the photographs before you got it started on the project or did you realize that maybe the art was going to be something more than just the some of the photographs maybe towards like after you finished taking all the photographs when did you realize it was going to become more than just the photographs individually or was that the whole purpose going into it well I'll just give you some insight in where that project came from and my thought process sure um because there's like three stages, I would say. The first stage was I was in a self-portrait class in my sophomore year of college, and one of the projects was take a photo of yourself as the other gender. And for me,

I was like, I want to take a Polaroid of myself on the street corner with my best friend and be prostitutes. And so, like, that was the fun little idea and do a whole, like, Polaroid narrative of that. and then I had the Polaroid camera sitting at my house and I had had a house party. I was living in like a five-bedroom house in Bushwick, Beds Die, and it was just nonstop parties all the time. I don't even like to party. I just like to make art and chill, but like the roommates I had were partiers, drinkers. And so we would always have parties because that would pay the rent.

And, you know, we had a party the night before. and then it's like two in the morning and I'm on mushrooms and I get a knock at the door and I'm like, who the fuck is here? Like, what's going on? And it's my friend Brian with two of his girlfriends and one of which he said, oh, could we come in? Is the party still happening? I'm like, bro, the party was yesterday, but you could come in and smoke some joints. Like, let's hang out. Yeah, you're here. And then we sat in the couch and he's like, hey, it's my friend's birthday today. And I'm like, oh, shit, happy birthday. And I looked at her and then I looked at the Polaroid and in that

moment I stood up like and like I had a lightning bolt pierced through my crown shocker into my body and my heart and like electrified me and it was like oh my god and I held the Polaroid in my hand I'm like I grabbed it I'm like I looked at her

I'm like oh my god I'm going to start a birthday project and every day of the year I'm going to photograph someone on their birthday. Did you say that out loud or was that in your head? Man I think, I don't think I said that out loud. Okay. It just came to me and I don't even remember the rest of the night because that was the only thing I remembered.

But you did take her photograph. I did not take her photograph. Oh, you didn't take her photograph. Oh, no. No, because it was close to my birthday. Ah. And I think that that was around September 12th. And then my birthday, September 23rd.

So there was another. party on September 22nd and I was going to start the project on my birthday and be the first self-portrait of the day. And then the party on the 22nd, one of my friends, it was there her birthday. So I was like, you know what? Fuck it. I'm going to start a day early. Like, what's the, what's the harm here? And I photographed her. And then the next day I drove up state and went to Bear Mountain and I had a photograph of my dog tortilla in my hand arms, like a big ass husky and then wearing my like hippie fucking hoodie um that you could find on any boardwalk um and and like the project started and then you know every day i would you know like

hit up all my friends hey do you know anyone who's birthday it is i would check face but like see who's birthday it is i would go to school and you know so it was very very very difficult the first three months because i it was very stressful and then after three months it got to the point where I had calendars marked. I had people ready who were excited to be in it, who would text me if they knew whose birthday was. And I would actually go around with a sign that says, is it your birthday today on the streets in New York? So the first time I did that really broke me out of my shell. And this is why I feel like I'm a social person now, is because I literally endured a whole year of fucking going out there, looking everyone in the

face in New York City with a sign that says, is it your birthday today? And I literally say, is it your birthday today? Is it your birthday today? Is it your birthday today? Until I found someone. And there are so many liars. It's my birthday. I'm like, really?

They're like, nah. I'm like, what the fuck? It happens. Get out of my way. It happens so many times. I would even check their IDs. Yeah, you have. Make sure it's legit.

How many photographs were there? 365? Yes. Yeah. So do you feel like every single one actually was their birthday? Every single 100% hit rate? I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, 100% positive, although I have a suspicion that one of them was a lie.

Okay. Okay. All but one? Because he was a younger kid because he was like 13. He didn't have an ID and my friend was like trying to hook me up, but I feel like he kind of fucked me over. But you know what? It wouldn't be a project if there wasn't one liar. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I'm sure there were a number of times where maybe, I don't know, it's like 9 p.m., 10 p.m. and you haven't taken your photograph yet and you're like shit shit shit that only happened once only one time it was 11 o'clock at night so I mean I was losing my mind

in your head you're like dude if the clock strikes midnight I'm out or is it kind of like a before I go to bed type thing what were your rules my rule was midnight midnight I'm dead I told myself I'll kill myself if I don't fucking shoot that someone okay so the day it was life or death well when you would put it like that so what was the day

that you had the biggest buzzer beater. What was that like? I always say it in November or was it February. And I had someone whose birthday was. I was just driving from city to Long Island and the kid was in Long Island and it was 1130 and like I pulled up. The kid wasn't there yet. And then I see and then I forgot my camera. That's what happened. That's what happened. I got there. My friend had to drive from the city with my Polaroid. He was pulling up. And then the kid whose birthday was pulling up and they both

stopped and then the kid got out my friend got out I grabbed the camera I ran I grabbed the kid and I photographed him and then I was like done another 24 hours to go and then I think I found someone that same night so I could just chill for the rest of the day I photographed a lot of people

at midnight just so I could have the day to like chillax right that's crazy man very stressful yeah did you know that you wanted to do it every single day for a year on day one? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Okay. Damn, that's pretty neat. And then did you... Just to see if I could do it. I said to myself, if I could get past November, from September to November, then I could definitely finish this. You said it was your senior thesis. Did you graduate college by the time it was over?

So I started in 2012, September, and then I finished it 2012 in September. And then 2014 May was when I graduated. Ah, okay. So I started it around, uh, wasn't my sophomore year? Shit, man, I don't even remember. It had to be. Talk a little bit about how you used it to come out of your shell. Because again, I have a pretty similar experience.

I was kind of the resident photographer for my fraternity in college. And I was also kind of an introvert. And so I kind of used like the camera to kind of hide behind, but also as an excuse to like introduce myself to people. It's like a great conversation starter. I was like, hey, I've got a camera. who wants their photo taken and everyone in college wants their photo taken. Talk a little bit about how you like, you know, formulated your identity using it.

So when I was in high school, I was the same way. I was like the photographer. I always had my camera. All the kids at school knew me for different reasons, whether I'm a skateboarder or pothead or artists. And I just was friends with everyone. Every friend group, I was never like in any click. I was always walking between, you know, the gangster kids or the preppy kids or,

the skater kids, you know, I was hanging out with everybody just because it's who I am. And, you know, I was always friendly. But when it comes to strangers and, like, people on the street, I really became fearless and just let go of any insecurity just by literally, like, putting yourself out there in the world, being a performer in a way where I was, like, literally carrying a sign to the point where people are handing me dollars,

and I'm like, I'm not fucking homeless. like I just want to shoot people on their birthday. I don't know how else I could communicate that to the world visually without like. So I would just go do that. And I really, over time, it really fucking tears you down to not give a shit and just enable you to literally talk to anyone in the world. And I think that endurance, that practice of literally putting yourself out there to the point where people can make fun of you, but you take yourself so, you take yourself so seriously

where I don't even give a fuck what anyone thinks to me because I have a goal and I'm driven and I always meet my goal and I can talk to anyone in the world if I wanted to. And that's just who I wanted to be and that project through the practice of putting yourself out there. It's like there's nothing left after that.

Do you think that this was a fortunate byproduct of creating these art series? Or do you think perhaps maybe it's actually one of the main reasons why you have the motivation to stick with it? Like maybe it was actually kind of the reason, perhaps. You know, I think it's both because I enjoy meeting people. I enjoy meeting new people.

And I think for me, it's like I would love to know everyone on earth just because I feel like it would create a better earth by people being connected and not being strangers and everyone being friendly and like a place where literally you go walk down the street and know everyone. And like maybe that's my utopian desire. But, you know, there are like eight billion. people in the world and I don't think anyone could be friendly with everyone, but there's 8 million people in New York City. And I probably said, is it your birthday to like at least a million of them? So this project took you a year. And it's not like you were charging the birthday people to get their photos taken. How are you like sustaining yourself financially during this time? I bought all the film up front. And it's just a Polaroid. So it literally is just one

expense of like 5,000 bucks to buy 52 packs. because there's eight photos in each pack, and each pack was like $20,000. So that's around like $1,000 or so. I don't even know. I would only shoot one photo per person. But yeah, but what about rent and gas and food and all the perils of being alive?

What about all that? So in New York, I don't have a car. I eat like rice and beans or pita and hummus, So I ate for like $5 a day. I'm not extravagant. I don't go out drinking. I don't spend money. The only thing I would buy was weed and had a budget for weed every month and be smart with that.

So, you know, I never really liked spending money on stuff just unless it was art supplies. So, you know, I worked and did photo jobs that paid like $1,000. And, you know, rent was only like $600. So I was living under my means and selling art. I could, you know, doing everything I could, mostly photo gigs and art sales. I recently watched a movie about rock climbers and the more hardcore of a rock climber you are, the more like minimalist lifestyle you tend to be, that is what I've gathered because these people don't care about like, you know, making money or like, you know, having this like

long term career projection, blah, blah, blah, blah. They just want to do the thing that they care about, right? They are optimized for the rock climbers, like optimized to climb the rocks. So it kind of sounds like what your lifestyle is, but instead of climbing rocks, you are taking photographs. Yeah, I mean, you know, as you say that, I think of like a simple life that I dream to have is living by a fucking, you know, ocean line in Malibu in like a mobile van life with a surfboard and just surfing every day. And then whenever I need to work, I just work from the car. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. That's like a dream, a silly little dream. Well, hopefully, towards the end of this conversation, we'll talk about the NFTs. We definitely will. And then we can talk about how that might become a reality later. But let's keep on going after the birthday project. So you had your first big project. Did it like blow up? So like what was the result of this project or is it just like your senior thesis? It's so funny you say that because it's definitely something that's worthy of being viral. Because if you look at the video on my website, it's pretty fucking compelling. Like, no one in the world has ever done what I did about birthdays with people, like, made a calendar of people on their birthdays with a Polaroid. Like, the camera itself lends itself to the concept. And I always think about that when I'm making the art is how does the tool relate itself to the medium? Like, when you look at Twin Flames, I shot with a twin lens reflex camera.

It has two lenses. So I think very deeply when it comes to the project, the theme, the paper I use for the theme. you know, with my new project Smoke and Mirrors, it's a tarot project. And so with the tarot in mind, I'm using papyrus paper because the esoteric tarot scrolls remind me of the ancient mysticism in Egypt. And, you know, my heritage is from there being Jewish. It's like, it's the core of my being to, like, honor the ancestors and the paper lends itself to the project. And I think of these terms. And how was the birthday project broadcasted, if you will?

Like, how did you get eyeballs on the project? So, but this was before Instagram really, like, took off. And I wanted to make it a book. I was trying to get book publishers. No one really cared. You know, I wasn't established enough for them to care.

But it was such a, it's such a great project. And I think when I released it as an NFT next year, people will actually want to make a book of it or whatever. It will really, 10 years later, have a whole new foundation to stand on. But then in art school, I just exhibited it in the hallway of the school. And you could tell everyone in that school really, like, took it in and was like, holy shit. Like, this is the project this kid did.

And here it is. You know, and I had Velcro tape. And I velcroed all them to the wall. And it's just, like, stood there, like, a presence. And, you know, I always wanted to make a book. I always wanted to exhibit at the MoMA. Like, these are my goals. You know, and now with NFTs, it could really change that and actually be where I wanted to be 10 years ago.

When it was displayed at school, you said it was on Velcro. How is it actually, like, configured? Was it like 365 in the line? One grid. One grid. One big-ass grid. I like making grids when I make projects. You'll see in every project I do, there's always a grid because I feel like it creates this awe, sublime feeling being like,

envisioned in front of this big-ass project that took a year to do and you see the whole year in one moment. It's like pretty powerful. So I did it by like seven rows, 52 images per row, because seven days a week and it's just 52 days in the year. It was pretty, you know, it was pretty powerful to have up there. Were they sequential? Oh yeah. Everything I do and everything I exhibit is always in chronological order. Cool. Just so you could see the progression of me as an artist and how I shoot. Right.

Nice. Love it. Could you tell differences behind, like, the photographs that you took at the start of the year versus the end of the year? Yeah, you could see the color temperature on the photos because the film itself is, is affected by the temperature. So when it was really cold during a blizzard, you would see, like, really blue. No way. If it was extremely hot, you would see orange or red or yellow. And it was like, it really embodied the temperature outside.

And, you know, you could see my thought process in it, like, seeing there's a person who's buried and it's the gravestone on their birthday. It's a baby being born on that day. It's people having sex on their birthday. It's like you could see all the birthday stuff in ideas throughout the project. And you could see my eye wanting to find different ways. Like you would, there's one photo where there's a girl is like in the mid, like far, far out. And I'm shooting from afar, like just because of scale. and there's one photo I'm like super close.

Just playing around and like doing everything, imagine it. Did you actually take photos of someone having sex on their birthday? Is that a real photograph? Yeah, January 26th. No way. Yeah, you go on my website, you'll see it. Oh, I think I will. A lot of nudes too.

Really? Yeah. Just because if people decided to get in their birthday suit on their birthday? Birthday suit. Yeah? Birthday suit. I'm sure somebody thought of that and thought that was a great idea. And I'm sure somebody next thought of that as well.

And then you were like, ha, ha, ha, somebody else thought of that first. Well, I had, like, one naked guy and one naked girl, and they were actually the people who were dating each other. Oh, nice. Nice. Whose idea was it to get naked? The guys are the girls? It was mine. I was like, guys, we're going to need to get you in your birthday suit for the project. Like, strictly because it's the birthday suit concept. And were they the only people that you prompted with that proposition?

My one best friend at the time got naked because he wanted to be naked. That's absolutely hilarious. Oh my gosh. I'm sure there are just absolutely, the project itself. I mean, is that why you really like the projects? It's because they have like the density of these stories. Like, I want to go on to the next project, but there are so many different like micro stories inside of this project. Is that why you like these things so much?

Yes. Yeah? Because they take a life of their own and there are stories within the project. There's narratives within. And it just, it's forever. It's life. And we could talk about this one project for a long time, but we should move on to Twin Flames. So it sounds like after you finish this project, you're like, oh, yeah, this whole like project style of art I am totally down for.

This is what I want to do. Is that about right? 100%. That's all I think of it. And then when the Twin Flames idea come about and how did that idea get accepted? There was like different stages of the. So in 2016, I visited Shaman's in Peru, going through a different. addiction stuff and loss of my mom and grief and not handling that well and always being on

mushrooms and trying to what year did your mom die 2014 she died a year after i took her birthday photo to the day literally almost to the day like i photographed her january 16th 2013 and then i photographed her that day and then she passed away january 18th 2014 four days after her birthday? Two days, yeah. Excuse me, two days. Yeah, bad math. Wow. Okay. And that was the last time I ever photographed her. Right. Interesting. And well, it's cool that her last photograph was in the project. Yeah. I mean, that photo project was actually for her to honor her life. And for the teaching she gave me to celebrate people, celebrate life, cherish memories. And, you know, like, it was actually in honor her of my mom. What about the specific project was right to give your mom?

Is there something about birthdays or just the fact that you wanted to honor her because she was the first person you photographed? Why was it the right thing to give to her? You know, it's all those reasons. It's both, you know, she was dying of cancer, so I wanted to show her who I was in the world and what I'm capable of and, you know, celebrating life and the teachings. and the first photograph and it being her last is kind of symbolic too.

The cool thing I really like about just artists and the concept of art is that I think society progresses at large. We progress as a society. But it's the artists that are first. Artists are the people spearheading this thing. So maybe when you're giving your mom this project, you're kind of letting her get a glimpse into your own future, even though you don't even know what that future is like. Like, hey, mom, here's what I'm going to do.

Here's, like, what I'm up to. And, like, you imagine the trajectory, mom. But here's the material to do so. I mean, it's more of her in her honor. Okay. Because she'd passed away while I was, like, after I finished it. So it's just, it's like one of those things when you write in a book, like, in the memory of my father, you know, it's for her. Okay.

And you'll see the same thing in my twin flames book in memory of my twin. Right. Okay. So, yeah, let's get into twin flames. When did the twin flames idea become incepted? So like I was saying, I was working with shaman's in Peru, and I had taken San Pedro, Wachuma, and I had communicated with my mom in that. This is a psychoactive drug?

It's a sacred medicine that you drink. It's like cactus smoothie. It's pretty gross. Kind of like peyote? Yeah. Paotty's gentle cousin. Okay. Okay.

And so, you know, I was on it, and then I was in communication with my mom in the spirit world and she was telling me it's okay, everything's okay, like, proud of you, and like just things that built my esteem, my self-esteem, and really helped me let go of any addiction or insecurities I was having. And the funny thing is, you know, it really set a tone for my healing. And there were twin shamans who were conducting the ceremonies. So, you know, they were really, they became really good friends. And I feel like it was that moment of of stepping into a healing phase that they came into my life and they were there. And then the next year in 2017, when I was at an exhibition that I was curating on Valentine's Day,

a set of twins, Allie and Jilly Glatt, were like the art world twins were always at gallery shows in the lower east side. And they came in. And in similar experience I had with the birthday project, I was holding my polar road because at that time I was always shooting people at events and being like, a Warhol dash snow person having fun at gallery shows and meeting people through my Polaroid and you know that's who I always was and I took a their picture and I held their picture in my hand and I was like and I looked at it and I had that fucking same feeling that I was like oh my God like I got to do a twin project like it's just going to happen and I went up to them later that day and like said to them look I'm going to start doing a twin project let me get my

gear and I'll and I'll contact you and we'll start. And so this project was, I call it the healing journey. And it does come from losing my twin in my mom's womb before I was born because my mom had three miscarriages, one before, during and after me. And I was like a twin survivor and I kind of absorbed my twin. And so I started uncovering like the healing and actually as I was shooting the project, it kept, like the messages came from the project of why I was even doing this. You know, I was, you know, I was seeking something in my heart that I was trying to put my thumb on. And by the end of it, by the second San Pedro ceremony, it totally made sense what I was doing.

It was all unconscious, and I'm excavating subconscious and bringing it to the surface of trauma. And it was all prenatal trauma, which is very difficult to activate unless you do that deep dive in healing. And so I went to Peru again to photograph the twins, shamans, and by that time, I was almost done with the project. So I flew to Peru just to photograph them, did another San Pedro ceremony. and this time I was talking to my twin and her name is Alessia and her nickname was Butterfly and there was a psychic medium there and she was channeling her and there was this like exorcism that had happened as well. There was a lot of crazy shit going on during that week in Peru but it was in that moment in that ceremony I realized like oh shit this is in honor of my twin

like this is to heal from my loss of my sister like and and and let go of the guilt and shame of surviving and her not and and also realizing that that those three miscarriages actually were a signifier for my mom getting ovarian cancer and leading to her death so it's like all these things are connected and it's all in hindsight that you realize what the fuck's actually going on but when you're creating the art you're just following intuition blindly and creating and then the photos tell a bigger story personally that actually help you discover who you are. Prior to starting this twin project, how conscious were you of the trauma that you had from your twin? Like, is this something that you were able to articulate before starting the project?

Or was it the project that really allowed you to introspect and see it, see it for how it really was? So my mom told me I lost my twin when I was like two or three years. old in the car when we were moving from Elmont to Holbrook, and then she, like, never brought it up again until she was on her deathbed, and then we talked about it again. And then, you know, I always felt like I had, like, a spiritual guardian with me, and it had, it had protected me, like, at least ten times growing up from death, like, near, near-death experiences, or something that, like, protected me in some magical way. And I didn't know what it was or who it was, And then I started realizing that it was actually my twin in the spirit world,

keeping havoc, watching my back. And I think as I progressed through the project, I would learn more about myself. I would feel better about myself. And I call it the healing journey because every photo I took really enabled me to connect with the twins and reconnect the prenatal disconnection that happened to me in the womb and being born in the world and not feeling connected to anything. And then, which is why I was taking a lot of,

shrooms and weed and finding like I was actually masking my trauma with this psychedelic mind state thinking I needed that to be an artist but really there was just a delusion in many different ways and so you know at some point I didn't need any of this stuff and just was sober and just started just creating and feeling good about that and feeling good about being sober and not needing psychedelics to make me feel happy or good or creative And for me, it was like a really healing journey. Because every photo I took, it made me feel more whole because I was connecting with these people. And by the end of it, I had connected with so many twins, it kind of made up for all the disconnection I had with my twin.

And by the time I had my book, it felt complete. And the project felt complete in three ways. It took me a year to photograph Twin Flames from May 31st to July 18, 2018. So 2017 to 2018. and I always work in these yearly projects because it's just something to do but it's for a greater cause after the fact

so once I finished the project shooting that was like the first stage of completion and then the second stage was printing the whole project and making a book and having the exhibition and then at the exhibition I was crying so much

and I felt relief and I felt support and I felt loved and I felt complete. And then the third stage of completion was when the NFT started selling and then being at Christie's and seeing the full complete collection sold to not only pay off all the debt, I've accrued making this stuff that put me in the whole $100,000, but it actually created abundance and actually built up my career. So it's like it needed the digital twin in order to be a successful project.

Whereas with the physicals in 2019, no one really cared. It was kind of like the birthday project all over again. Like, it wasn't connecting to people in the art world. And I feel like it needed to be reinforced by the digital community and the NFT twin, the digital physical balance, which made it complete in a way where people could truly understand it and have a whole audience like yourself and everyone who's listening to back to back. and fucking care and rally and to create a whole community and a whole force of where we're at now with NFTs and photography. Hey guys, I hope you're enjoying Justin's stories thus far.

I think one of the most interesting things about the show with him is that we didn't talk about crypto or NFTs or Bitcoin really for the first entire half of the show. But the second half of the show, we will actually start to talk about these things. But before we get there, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible. When you shop for plane tickets, you probably use Kayak, Expedia, or Google to compare ticket prices. So why would you limit yourself to just one exchange when you trade crypto? When you make your trades, you want to make sure that you are getting the best possible price on your trade and that you aren't paying high gas costs that you could have otherwise avoided. That's why you should be using

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There's a lot of themes that I think I want to connect here. We talked to Justin Blow about his royal platform, which is tokenized music. But we talked about how the act of creating a token actually elevates the fans in an equal and opposite creative process as the artist. And so where it used to be an artist on stage projecting out to fans and the fans were consuming, the creation of the token allow the fans to reverberate back. towards the artists. And so like we're in like the traditional music world, it's from one to many, but now in the potential of this tokenized music world, it's an appropriate match. It's got its

other half where the artists and the token can reverberate between each other. And the token is emblematic of just like the artist's fans. I'm seeing similar parallels to what you're saying, where we have this digital complement to the real world creation process that allows the true expression to actually be manifested. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. I mean, he's doing a great job with the royal and paying it forward back to the people. And I think that's what the Web 3 is all about, is how to include the community that's

helping just to also be part of the success. So if there hadn't been NFTs and there had just been this physical side, what would that have looked like? You said a book, a book of, is it again, 365 twins? No, 100 twins. 100 twins. Okay, so you didn't put a yearly timer on this one, did you? No, but it took a year.

Fair. Okay. And so, like one twin per page? Would that be the deal? Yeah. Well, like, the name of the twin and the location and the date and then the photo. And then you flip it's, and then there's chapters. Every 10 twins was an interview and like statistics, science, paranormal, community, spirituality, all these different elements of astrology, all these different elements of astrology, all these different.

elements of what twins can be in these different genres and interviewing a select of each 10. This is like a one of one, right? Like a one of one in real life copy of this book. Is that right? No, there was 500 editions of the first and then 200 editions of the second. So what actually went off to Christie's? What got Ashton action off at Christies? The full physical one of one set. Okay. And one NFT of the book cover image. Okay. So you didn't take these with your Polaroid. You took these with a different camera. I actually did shoot Polaroids. And I did. shoot with the TLR camera with the two lens that look like this and then a large format.

So when I started, after the birthday project, I started shooting like four by five large format, medium format, Polaroid. And with my new project, Smoke and Mirrors, I'm still shooting Polaroid. I'm still shooting four by five. And now I'm shooting with a 35 millimeter instead of a square camera. So it changes a little bit. So there's not one single format, right? No, and the reason is because I learned the hard way a few times that sometimes your camera fucks up and the light gets exposed or there's a hole in the bellows or someone misdevelops the film and, you know, you can't let people ruin the shoot if you only have one camera.

So I've learned to shoot with multiple cameras and, you know, there was multiple times in the project where, you know, the 4x5 didn't come out or the medium format didn't come out. And luckily I had the other one to like make up for it. So the 500 books that were sold, these individual photographs were they like scanned and then printed onto the actual book pages? It's just like a normal book. It's, you get it printed at a print shop and they make it into a book. Okay, so they're taking the negatives. I'm just trying to figure out. Well, I scan the negatives and I put them in a digital file and then I place the digital file on InDesign.

Okay. And you design the book and then you get the book printed through the Indesign file. Okay, so you're not taking the negative and having the photo paper go through like the washing process. Oh, no, that's, that's crazy. I'm a little bit disconnected from the photography world these days. Okay, so you take the negative and the negative is directly scanned. So I got the negative, scanned it, got the file, edit the file, make it color corrected and whatnot. And then you put it in, you know, the in design and you format the book.

And then the one of the what was auctioned off at Christie's again, what was that formatting? That's the physical 16 by 20 prints I made in the dark room and there were one-on-ones that I made in the color dark room and framed and there's a hundred of them. And one NFT of the book cover image. Okay. And so that, you actually did take the negative and go through the dark room creative process. And that's why it has that outsized price tag because, well, A, the uniqueness, but also B. the human labor of the artist himself going into it. Took me three months.

I did like, I believe I did like three to five a day. Mm-hmm. So I had six hours at the spot. I did five a day. I think it was five a day or three to five a day. And it took me three months. How long would each print take to produce? Like an hour to an hour and a half.

And like that, you're just trying to perfect the exposure, twinker with the composition, make sure the colors are right. Yeah. And then if I remember my, my darkroom days, there was a lot of expensive photography paper thrown out in the trash because I didn't get it right. Was there a lot of that? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. By the end of it, I was, I had a, I had a flow. And it was pretty much always the same exposure, F11 at 10 to 30 seconds with like a two filter or whatever.

Okay. Okay, cool. So you got the hang of it. And then, okay, so then the NFTs, 1001 of ones? Yep. And then you're just taking the, the, scanning the negative, going into some, digital format, Adobe Illustrator, maybe again? I already had the file, so all I had to do was upload them. Right. Oh, okay. Okay. And then what platform did you use to upload them to? OpenC. OpenC. Direct. Not foundation or super rare? Just straight to OpenC?

No, I'm straight up OpenC 1159 fucking shared contract and breaking that whole taboo of, oh, OpenC shared contract's not worth anything. Well, the most expensive photography project is on that. And it's kind of funny because at the end of the day, the argument's like, does it really need to be? an ERC 721?

I say moving forward, yes, because I'm educated now, and it's like painting with acrylic and moving into painting with oil. But being a noob and using what you have at the time and trusting your leaders to show you what's up,

you know, I did it. And I think at the end of the day, people respect the artist and the reputation more so than a fucking smart contract. Did you hear about Ethereum at all before NFTs? Or was through this project. When did you hear about Ethereum? So I knew about Bitcoin since

2012, since Silk Road. And as I was shooting on my birthday project, my roommate was ordering acid from Germany with Bitcoin. And he's like, oh, look at Bitcoin. Look at this. And I'm like, bro, this is so above my fucking head. Like, I'm just, I got to go find someone whose birthday it is today.

So I was always enveloped in, like, the creative process where I couldn't even, like, entertain that. But I always knew about it. it and I was interested but I didn't know how to do it. And then in 2017, I bought like 20K of Bitcoin and I got wrecked and then... Welcome to the club. Yep, class of 2017. And then it felt good to get wrecked because I got wrecked with Tesla too. And it was like, all right, well, I guess I suck at this shit. Got to stick to make an art. And then, you know, I saw Ethereum at the time. I bought like a little bit and I'm like, what the fuck is this shit? I don't even know what Ethereum is.

like, what is this, you know, Bitcoin's the real store of value here, but Ethereum, like, I don't get it. Like, I actually was, like, more about like coin than I was about Ethereum because I was like, oh, Bitcoin's digital gold and light coins digital silver. I get it. And Ethereum, I don't even know what the hell this shit is. Until NFTs, I really, truly understood why it's important and valuable. And, like, okay, now I see light coins a scam. And actually Ethereum is almighty and even better than Bitcoin because of how it can be used in so many different ways in coding. And also, like, because I made money with Ethereum, it kind of, like, won me over.

Yeah. I was getting paid in Ethereum. How are you getting paid in Ethereum? Through selling NFTs. Ah, okay. So when did NFTs first come on your radar? In January when I was doing Clubhouse stuff and, like, everyone on Clubhouse, who was an artist, was either in an artist room or an FD room.

And, you know, everyone was talking about NFTs. Everyone was minting. Everyone's talking about it. Everyone's talking about digital art. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to fucking mitt my photography. I'm going to mint Twin Flames. And, you know, G Money was the person who really inspired me to do the individuals.

Wait, so did you discover Ethereum and really like Ethereum before you discovered NFTs or because you discovered NFTs? I discovered NFTs. just through Clubhouse. Right, okay. So when did you fall in love with Ethereum, like you said that you did? What time is...

When I sold my first NFT. Okay. Okay, so you were into Bitcoin throughout the bare market, bought it at the top of the set 2017, didn't care about Ethereum during the bare market. I was buying a lot of Bitcoin

during the pandemic. Okay, okay. And I was buying some Ethereum and I had a little bit of money in each. But you didn't really know what Ethereum was all about at that time? Yeah. Okay.

And so, You were exposed to Ethereum, but weren't, like, privy to Ethereum. I wasn't sold on it. I was just making sure I had each thing. Okay. So you're into crypto before you were into NFTs, but not, like, a deep crypto person. Right. Right.

And then you sold your first NFTs, and your first NFTs were not Twin Flames. Was something prior to that? No, it was Twin Flames. It was Twin Flames. It was Twin Flames. Twin Flames is the first thing. Okay. And then it was Clubhouse that you got familiarized with NFTs?

Yeah. Okay. And then how did you meet G Money? I met him through Instagram. Like, I saw. that someone Kenny Schechter posted about a crypto punk sale and I'm like

who the fuck spends $150,000 on this fucking thing is a JPEG I'm going to talk to this guy and see if he wants to buy my Twin Flames for $100,000 because it's 100 pieces for 1,000 each like why wouldn't they want that if they're buying this? So I got on the phone with him and he really like schooled me on NFTs and why they're important

and why they're valuable and I was like okay and he's like I don't want to buy the physicals for 100K. I want to buy the NFTs, like make NFTs and then hit me up. And then I did and I hit him up like a day later and he bought a few. And then two days later, the whole project sold out. And then I was like, well, I love this royalty idea. Let's see how that works.

And, you know, started making secondary sales and then kept it going to the point where it's like almost 200th again. So when you were first in some sort of clubhouse room and you heard about NFTs, Did it instantly click with you? It was like, oh, I can mint my Twin Flames photos as NFTs? No. No? I was like, what are these people talking about? I don't even get it.

And then I tried minting something on Rarables. And then Rarables, like, robbed me. And I was like, I had $250 to my bank account at the time. And I lost $60. And I'm like, this is fucking stupid. And I hated NFTs. And then Alex Mesmash kept nudging me like, dude, try again. Like, try again.

Like, you're one of the greatest artists. as I've met, like, try it. Like, let me help you. How did you meet him? Do Clubhouse. Clubhouse, okay. Interesting. And you were on Clubhouse because artists were on Clubhouse?

Yeah. Yeah. I was finding community there and just talking to new people and we're all banning together and supporting each other. And Alex Mazman just like saw you and somehow decided to look at your Twin Flames and was like, wow, this is super dope. This guy should NFT it. Yeah.

I mean, he hit me up. He's like, dude, I love your art. I want you to be part of Try Showtime. I want to teach you how to mint NFTs. He helped me get a metamask wallet. He helped me use OpenC. You know, he had the OpenC team verify me and the project and everything. It was, like, pretty easy.

I think at this time, G Money is a pretty big NFT individual these days. I think at this time, this was when he was really, like, starting to come up in the NFT world. Literally, like, I DM'd him after that post. and he had probably just made that Instagram like 10 minutes before I DM'd him. Oh, really? And then he had like five people following and like, and I was his first follower, I think.

How did you find him on Instagram then? If he only had such... He was tagged. Interesting. And I was like, is this a scam account? Or I'm just going to hit him up and see what's going on. And then he responded. And then we were talking.

I'm like, whoa, this is real. I think he's just making this as a branding project. So it's like, all right, perfect. Best way to connect with someone is when they're first starting out. So this is, So this is probably less true, obviously, at the time that you did it. But I would imagine if some artist hit up G Money now and it was like, yo, G Money, check out my art.

You want to buy it? He probably wouldn't even answer that DM. Do you know why he paid attention to you? I think because he acknowledged that I was reaching out to him early. And I think he respected that and he respects my hustle. And also, you know, when you're starting out, you're not fully confident in what you're doing. until other people kind of like validate you. And for me, all I was helping him do is validate him and who he was as a collector

and what he means to me as an artist. And I feel like that mutual respect of artists to collector, collected artists, really pushed each other forward, you know, with all the projects we've done. And also like inviting him to conversations with the art world people. Because what I was pretty much known for in Clubhouse was holding space for art world people to talk to crypto people and like mediate it and like try to find a middle of ground because a lot of art world people were skeptics and a lot of crypto people were trying to show these people what the fuck's going on. Right. So Masmich was like nudging you into NFTs and then you talked to G money and said,

hey, well, you want to buy all of my physicals? And he was like, no, no, no, I want NFTs. And that was when you became warm to NFTs. Yeah. Yeah. And you're like, okay, I will. And then. Well, also the user experience with OpenC really like won me back. Rarables, like, sorry guys, that shit really, like, put a bad taste in my mouth. And it wasn't good. It wasn't a good experience. It made me not want to do it. And then luckily, I had Alex Mesmash, like, literally, like, hitting me up all the time. And I was kind of like, sidlining him until I was like, you know what? I'm going to give this kid a time of day. We got on Zoom. He fucking, I'm glad I did that. And I'm glad he was persistent because I don't think he needs to be doing that anymore. He's running a really, successful business. And I think that's the beauty about being early with everyone around you as being early too. As builders, they have time for you. You know, I imagine hitting him up now. He'd be like, who the fuck are you? Or, you know, G money the same. I'm like, who the fuck are you, bro? Like, I'm busy. I'm working with Adidas. And I'm lucky. I reached out. And like, that's my skill is knowing how to talk

to people. And, you know, the birthday project set me up to know how to talk to people and connect with people. Even if, you know, they don't have any people that look up to them. yet. Huge. I have that foresight in connecting. Right. Right. How did you determine the prices of your individuals? The meme about artists is they don't know how to price their work. How did you come up with a thousand dollars per piece? Oh, yeah? Simple. It's like, what is my fair market value now? What am I selling pictures at a galleries now? It was $1,000, a one-on-one. I just listed it a thousand bucks, 0.55 a youth. So you were already selling physical art in our galleries? for $1,000 a print?

Yeah, at 16 by 20, yeah. The Catch 22 I've heard about artists is that a lot of, like, you know, galleries or this, you know, they won't let artists in because they haven't proved themselves. But then there's that question on your tool. You're not letting, I can't prove myself

because you're not letting me in. Yeah. So, like, where did you get, like, the Genesis to actually, like, say that, oh, I actually get to sell myself for $1,000? So I'm, you know, I like to push the boundaries and also work with the team,

around me and there are galleries that give artists a shot if they never had a shot before, you know, the living gallery or the storefront project, Super Chief, all these different places, petite gallery, you know, and also renting it yourself and making a name for yourself, I think is the ultimate move. You know, I built a name for myself with Save Artspace and that also built me a huge credibility in the art world. And, you know, now I have a lot of credibility in the art world because it's hard not to respect million-dollar sales, but prior to that, no one give a fuck about me or my work or my emails until the number is really justified why they should care, which is fucking stupid. It should be about the integrity of the work or

the work ethic or the people, the connections. But, you know, once they see numbers, they really start to change their mind. And for me, it was really about building my brand, building my community outside of, you know, the walls that kept me out and actually just, you know what, I'll rent my own spot, have my own gallery, and bring people in. And that's how I always been. And, you know, that's how it is. And that's what Web 3 is. Was it a Twin Flame picture that was the first thing that you sold for $1,000? Or was it some other photographs from your other efforts or endeavors? My first solo show was, I've actually sold other stuff. I've been selling arts for, a while, like I would say since 2012,

drawings, ink drawings, paintings. Okay. Mixed media pieces. So outside of the projects. Yeah, yeah. I had my first solo show in 2019 called The Cactus Diaries, and those were cyanotypes 101s.

And there was 12 of them, and I sold that whole show. And I made like $20,000 and, you know, I only got kept half because the gallery takes half. But it was really rewarding my first solo show everything sold out. All the little pins, books, candles to the big ass prints, everything. There's literally nothing left. That's cool. That's cool. So when you saw the potential of minting your work as NFTs, you didn't raise your price. You kept the prices the same. So was the advantage of NFTs as in just another form of the same art to distribute?

Or was the advantage of the NFTs that there were potential buyers from all over the world? what did you see in the potential of NFTs for, you know, expressing Twin Flames? So for me, it was coming from a place of like, if people are buying digital assets with ownership on the blockchain, I was working with this project for years, putting it on Instagram, putting on my website, putting in a book, putting in an exhibition. The only natural state in my mind was, okay, I'm going to mint it on the blockchain. And I minted it in chronological order. and I listed at my fair market price and promoted it on Twitter and Discord and Clubhouse.

And, you know, two to three days later, it's completely sold out. And people were like, holy shit, like photography, people were like scared to admit photography because everyone thought NFTs were about digital art or moving images. But for me, it was always like, this is the art I make. I'm not changing it for anybody. And I think that's the, attitude to have is, you know, you don't change your art for the audience. You, you stick by and, you know, show people why it is important. And it doesn't need to move because it acts on its own. So, um, there was no, like, debut or production. There was just your metamask connected to your open sea with your NFTs that you had for sale and just through word of mouth of people that knew you.

That was enough to sell a hundred pieces at $1,000 each. Well, I'll say this. I started, before I minted everything, I was connecting with collectors in the space. I was talking to a lot of people and like preparing like G Money or William Savas or Masmash or, you know, people. And I had like set buyers. And ironically enough, like I hadn't had any Twitter presence at all. So I was like starting my Twitter from zero. And I deleted everything. I had like 200 followers at the time. And I always had problems with Twitter.

I was never able to figure out how to use it. Like on Instagram, I'm good at it, whatever that means. But like, Twitter was always like, why doesn't anyone follow me or like my shit? Like, I don't get this. And then when NFTs came around, I literally found my community

of, and support where I literally like left Instagram to fucking focus on Twitter. And, I love it so much more because I feel like Twitter is like the original blockchain with like people's posts are over each other. You know, it's timestamps. It's authentified. A chain of tweets. Yeah. Right. And so my plan was to at my first tweet was like all the press I've ever got for Twin Flames and like as the ground foundation to show people like this is a serious project. And then what my plan was going to be every day I was going to post like twin one, twin two.

like this one's for sale or this one. But ironically, the funniest thing happened, you know, I made my first sale, and then I posted Twin Flames sold. And then, you know, other people started buying it. Flamingo Dow was talking about buying it. And like a few of those members just bought up like a third of the project.

And then the punks bought up another third. And then another third was bought literally by peers and people like myself who are photographers who just wanted to buy it. And it was, it went quick. And I didn't have to post, oh, this one's for sale. I literally just posted, sold, sold, sold to this person, to this person, building community with the collector. And then people retweeting it.

And that's when I built a following. And then, you know, I'm like almost 50,000 followers later. You know, it took me fucking seven years to get 12,000 followers on Instagram. And in like four months, five months, I have like 50,000 followers on Twitter. and it's like, what? And I've never been good at Twitter. So it was always like, what is going on? I finally found my way here.

Did the G Money was able to get his hands on one of the NFTs? He got five of them. Okay, cool. He bought the book cover. Oh, nice. And then someone else, my friend Pasha, bought his book, the book cover from him for five Eath. And then I ended up needing the book cover back for the Christie's auction.

So I ended up buying that back for like six ETH. and an ex copy. Oh, wow. Actually, no, sorry, I traded him a Twin Flames I bought for Five Eth and an ex copy for the book coverback. And I actually bought the piece of my girlfriend, Nicole, who I met in Twin Flames, the first time I shot her. I bought that back from William Savas, my first collector that I met in that grouping for 6th. And, like, I'm glad because I never want to sell this. And it's my soulmate.

Uh, was the $100,000 that you made from selling Twin Flames? Was that like just a, was that, how massive was that as a windfall for you at the time? I was like, I paid off all my debt and I was back at zero. How much debt did you have? $100,000. Oh my God. And how did you rack up $100,000 a debt? I mean, not working, traveling, all my food, putting on my credit card, all my

plane tickets, all my rental cars, my lodging, my film, my scans, my paper, my development, new cameras because my camera broke. You know, all these little expenses add up and, you know, exhibition costs, book costs, all these things, like, it costs money. Framing, like, I read the prints. Right. Before NFTs, what was your plan for paying that off? I was going to sell the project for $100,000 to an institution or a wealthy tech fund.

Okay. So you just took the risk of, I'm going to make this art, and then I'm going to sell this art, and I'm just going to be cool on the other side. Well, I was like, I'm going to make this. God is guiding me to make this art. I'm driven by spirituality and divine intuition, and so I trusted it. I took my leap of faith. I went through my doubt, and I stayed strong.

Like, even during the pandemic, you know, from 2019, after I didn't sell out the project to the World Trade Center, whoever else I was trying to sell it to, I was like, oh, no, like, you know, I'm getting mail from, like, American Express trying to sue me because I'm not paying this debt. And then the pandemic hit, and like, I'm like, emailing every fucking museum to try and collect it and trying to find a home for it, because it's a physical artifact and it needed to be completed. And then by the time of 2021, with the NFTs, like I really found a safe haven and a place to sell it. And, you know, it became a lifesaver in a way.

It's an absolutely amazing story. What's next? Is that story over? No. Is that wrapped? Fuck, no. What's left in the Twin Flame story? Oh, the Twin Flame story is complete.

Okay, that story is complete. Because of Christie's was the last thing on the list. Like, having the physicals. you know, sitting in storage for two years, and then it going to Christie's and finally landing itself into a museum is pretty much like, it's completely out of my hands. Right.

The prints are out of my hands. The NFTs are out of my hands. It's like complete. It's into the ether. And now I could focus on smoke and mirror as my new project. Right. We'll get there in a hot second.

How much did the art piece that Christie sell for? The hammer price was $1.1 million. The hammer price is that the price that it sells for? Yeah. Do you know who bought it? Oh, yeah. Yeah? He's my friend, CL7, who is a French art collector, and he's putting it in his French chateau in

23. And in the interim, we're putting it in museums in New York and hopefully London and Germany before it lands in France. Cool. And did you get all that $1.1 million? No, I got $900,000, half of which I donated to save art space, and $200,000 I paid to all the twins. Wow. What made you decide to pay $200,000 to all the twins?

it just felt right. So they each got $2,000? Yeah. Cool. Well, no, they each got $1,000. And it's for like the ethos of the Web3 spirit of royalties. And if I'm collecting royalties, I wanted to give 10% of what I made to these people

because that's what I believe in. And I want to share that abundance with everybody because that's what art is for. And if I could, you know, help someone in their time of need and they might not even know what's going on. And I contact them saying, hey, I have money to give you for the project you're in four years ago. They're like, oh my God, you just helped me pay my rent or I needed money to pay for the dentist.

Like, this is amazing. Wow, over-the-counter royalties. That's really, really cool. Yeah, I had a PayPal and like Venmo and like, it's a lot of work. Yeah. So the next email is going to be, give me your e-th address. Oh, you'll love to hear it. Okay, so now you have the financial foundation to move forward and,

move into your next project. So let's go into smoke and mirrors. What's smoke and mirrors? Oh, Smoking Mirrors. So how Twin Flames was the healing project, the healing journey, I called Smoke and Mirrors, the hero's journey, stepping into your power after healing from Twin Flames. And literally, like, I started this project August 4th, 2018, and I just finished it with the Winklevoss twins and the Nifty Gateway Twins, the Griffin and Duncan Cockfuster on October 4th, 2021 at my Christie's auction in front of Twin Flames. So it's kind of like, I always wanted to photograph the Winklevoss for Twin Flames, but I never got to connect with them. I sent them a book on Christmas in 2019.

And I finally was able to connect with them this year through my success and NFTs in crypto. And obviously them being twins and me being friends with Griff Griffin Duncan and connecting with them and, you know, showing them, like, what I'm capable of as an artist. And also this huge exhibition at Christie's, like a high caliber art space for a magnificent twin project. Like, what twin in the world wouldn't want to be part of that? Right. Right.

So it was my take in seeing them, you know, wanting to have them in twin flames, but actually finishing smoke and mirrors because there's 78 people in smoke and mirrors. because it's a tarot deck and they're the 10 of cups and if you look at the card it's like 10 trophies stacked up and two twin guardians standing like

guard for the trophy and it was like this is the Winkleball twins I gotta like and cockfosters I gotta shoot them I gotta finish smoking mirrors with two sets of twins in front of the twin flames

wall and that is like the maestro like move to complete a double twin completion for both twin flames and smoke and mirrors, the photographic process and like the complete exhibition process of the both projects at once. And it was like the ultimate synchronicity of completion. How much of a happy accident was that and how much was that intentional?

I mean, you know what? I didn't know I was going to shoot them until like a day before. Wow. So it was really like on the wire and a lot of trust and faith and just know. knowing in my heart that this is what it must be because this is the dream, this is the artist's vision. And it's so fucking powerful that, you know, people like them took time out of their day to come see me and create with me and actually, like, shatter any expectations of who they think I was and actually built a bond through the twinhood and brotherhood of through art and, and connecting through that siblingness. And I think that was the ultimate, like, gain from that meeting was building a true friendship through the art and honoring them because I look up to them because they're the twins, the best twins in the world, right? Like, the most notable twins in the world. And, like, having them take notice of Twin Flames is kind of like a huge respect and acknowledgement that I've always wanted from them. And seeing that come through through my success and seeing them respect my success, you know, it kind of felt really fucking gratifying.

And now having a friendship with them where I could literally text them if I wanted to. Right, right. And that's cool to have because it took, it was so hard to get in touch with them in the first place. Right. And that was so easy. Well, Justin, who you are as a character, deserve it of all the success that you had. So congratulations for getting to that point and finding a vehicle for to have. all of your art as well respected as it is. Thank you, man. And I think at the end of the day,

like my ultimate goal as a photographer is to meet world leaders and somehow create a piece among men through the portraits. And if I could be that character in the world where they're literally like stops wars through the authentic relations of art and connection and showing humility through the portrait and the people, I think that's the ultimate goal of an artist. You know, artists kind of like hippies, like they want world peace. They want, you know, everyone to get together and be friends. But like, you know, like, the only way to do that is to create, create those experiences for everyone. To you as an artist, and you are a very surreal thinker, you're into the divine, you're into mythology, you're into the spirit world. Coming from that angle, what are

NFTs? NFTs. NFTs to me are the digital twin of the the physical reality. The digital twin of the physical reality. Do they communicate the same thing but in a different format? I think they're interwoven by context of the

materiality of the subject. You know, like you look at Twin Flames, the picture and the physical print. You look at Twin Flames, the NFT. There is no difference because the context of the image is the same except the materiality of the physical object and the digitality of the digitality of the

digital object in the metaverse space. And I think everything, you know, everything in the world is literally an NFT. It's just a digital receipt or a twin. I like to call these things the twin because it literally is. It's like what can exist in this world, it can exist in the metaverse and it reflects and is woven together through our idea of the object. A lot of people, and I'm definitely guilty of this, are really high. type up NFTs as this brand new paradigm shift in what it means to express culture.

But sometimes I'm kind of worried that that's just a bunch of crypto people shilling their crypto things. But for you as an artist, what do you think NFTs are going to do for the world of cultural human expression? I just think they make things easier to access. And also, you know, they're assets that are mobile, that are, you know, transportable. You don't have to take care of them in the physical space, you know, because we can see. these things, we gave these things value through our consciousness of our beliefs of why we deem

something like Bitcoin, for example, why is that worth $60,000? Because it's an idea. Why is money worth anything if it's a piece to paper? It's literally an idea we share in the mythology around money and the idea of currency or assets that actually make us think these things are valuable. And I think as long as that's going on, these things will stay relevant. and even grow. Like, why is a stock valuable if they're just numbers on a page? It's our idea of these things that make it go up or down. So, you know, some people pump and dump, like Wolf Game and all those Ponzi's and whatever.

But, like, for a true artist, it's a means of connecting with a collector or sustaining their life through the work. And the crypto collectors are the people who don't want physical things much. And they like carrying, you know, their art. collection on their phone, just like they have their whole crypto portfolio on their phone or ledger. So it's like, for me, it's just a minimalist view in the future and how we maintain our assets. So much of your story, you can't really appreciate, if you go on to OpenC and just type in Twin Flames, you'll see a very well-composed photograph of two twins. but the photograph, again, by itself, doesn't justify the 17th price tag that you might you see on one of them.

No, 170. Oh, excuse me, 170th price tag for a single Twin Flame photograph without knowing the story that you're telling me here today, like that price tag will seem ridiculous. And so much of your story is about drawing deep connections from very far reaches, different phases of your life where, you know, connecting the photo. of your mom, which was your first picture ever that you ever took, connecting that to your twin, connecting that to going through the trials of being a social human through photography, and then connecting that all the way to the Winklevoss. Obviously, that's Justin's story, but do you think NFTs as like these emotional vehicles of meaning also play a role in that? Or, again, am I just trying to ascribe too much meaning to NFTs?

No, I mean, like I said, this project, couldn't exist without the digital twin. And I think plain and simple, because it had the digital twin, it gave it a whole new life in a way where people can understand it and access it and support it like never before through crypto. And I think it's important for all crypto people and collectors to actually take serious in the art they're collecting because they're changing lives. and they're supporting artists who don't make more than $20,000 a year

when people, you know, in crypto are spending $20,000 on a fucking gas fee. You know, not like, not really, but like, you know what I'm saying. Sometimes. So. Sometimes. It really puts into context. Like, artists don't need a lot to survive. But, you know, when they have that support and they have abundance and are making $80,000 off their photo.

or paintings or digital art, it really, it makes the world a better place because the artists are less stress and they can actually create more out of not being worried about paying rent and working their day job when they could actually... That's why we're seeing a lot of people quit their job because their true job is being an artist.

And there's so much wealth in crypto that's literally generated out of nothing that can... People are okay with spending $20,000 on an artist's life. Justin, what do you want your legacy to be? Shit. Man, I just want to keep making art and let the legacy tell its own story. You don't want to direct it.

You want it to unfold? That's how it's always been. It's literally been an unfolding, a constant unfolding, unveiling. You know, it's somewhere between the alchemist story and, you know, Sid Hartha, I would say. So with this smoke and mirrors project coming to an end, where can people go look at it? Is there like an announcement roadmap? Where should people tune in? If you're in my Discord, you'll get all the alpha. But mostly like I'm in my editing phase. If you go to my website, you'll see the smoke and mirrors and there's like 18 photos I need to add that I need to edit.

So, you know, Twin Flames took a lot of my year. And luckily I was able to finish shooting this year after having a year break from the pandemic. and you know allow now this year really allowing me to get back in the flow and having a new studio with gaba gallery to make silk screens because smoke and mirrors is a two-part project where I have 78 silk screens one of five different variants of how I'm like printing them they're all there's five of the same image but they're all different compositions of the paints and structure of each of those. So they're all one-on-ones, basically. And then the one-of-one, black and white, similar to Twin Flames of the 78. So they exist side by side. And these, in fact, come with the physical. So with Twin Flames, you only got the NFT digital because the physical

was going to the museum. And now with smoke and mirrors, you get the physical print with the NFT, just for me as an artist to experiment, because at this time in NFTs, it's so much freedom and experimentation. I want to always experiment and change it up and see what we can, you know, do and introduce people to the physical stuff. Because at the end of the day, we don't want to go fully immersed into the metaverse and lose our humanity. We want to create some sort of balance that reflects and reacts to digital physical worlds and never really going too far into the metaverse where we're gone or too far into nature

where we stop caring about tech, there's a balance that I'm trying to, at least in my legacy, I want to fulfill the balance of both these two worlds so we don't lose our humanity. That's beautiful. I'd ask you what projects you're going to work on next, but oh i'm already working on oh you already have the idea i was i was afraid i got a fucking 10 year

plan bro yeah okay well can you tease us on the details of the next project or is that under wraps yeah it's gonna be a super eight project um cinema aha film yeah so if you look at my art in a trajectory of where i started the birthday project was polaroids cognition was paintings twin flames was classic color portraits smoke and mirrors black and white and silk screens My new project is going to be Super 8. So I'm moving into cinema. And then after that, I'm going to be making short films and hopefully feature films and creating a legacy and filmmaking as a director similar to Kubrick and Tarantino and Lynch and like creating surrealist metaphors for the psyche that actually have a original authentic story that, you know, withstand in our social consciousness. in a memeable culture.

You know, think of the Shining Twins. You see, you see that burn into your imagination. So it's like, I want to create things like the Matrix, Avatar, you know, Pulp Fiction, the Shining, like, very groundbreaking, original things. How long do you imagine these films are? Are they, like, GIFLengths, where they're their five to ten seconds? Are they minutes? Or are they full-length features? These are, like, two-hour movies.

You're going for the full movie. I'm making seven great films before I die, hopefully. Oh, my God. You're going to make movies. How far into this are you going to go? You're going to actually recruit actors and generate scripts? It's going that direction. Oh, my gosh.

That is absolutely insane, dude. I'm not going to write scripts. I'm going to hire screenplays writers to do it, and I'm just going to direct because, you know, I'm actually writing a TV show that I've been writing for years. So, you know, this is just where I'm at now. This could change. Well, I think something that I've definitely picked up on is, especially in the 2020s, those that are good at many, many things are outpacing those that are only very, very good in one specific thing. And Justin, you seem like a guy who's into all forms of artistic expression, not just one form, and definitely has storytelling as well. So I'm really excited to see what you cook up with for the rest of your life, sir.

Me too. It's an improv. Like, my whole life's improv. Improv. Improv. That's great. I love that. I love that. And I think to be a good artist, you've got to be good at improvisation. 100%. And adapt in every moment.

100%. Justin, what do you want listeners to know? What do you want them to do? How can they help you? I think if everyone recognizes that they too have an artistic ability and they execute it in their life or do what they love, the world will be filled with more love. Justin, thank you for coming on, Larry Zero. Thank you.