Bankless - Pet3r Pan | Layer Zero

Starting point is 00:00:06 Welcome to Layer Zero. Layer Zero is a podcast of unscripted conversations with the people that make up the Ethereum community. Crypto is built by code, but is composed by people, and each individual member of the community has their own story to tell. Cypherpunks understood that the code they write impacts the people that use it, and Layer Zero is a podcast that focus on the people behind the code because Ethereum is people all the way down, and it always has been. Today I'm talking with Peter Pan, who is a fellow class of 2017 crypto person, got into the world of crypto around the same time I did, made similar typical newbie mistakes that one does, buying XRP. But Peter immediately injected himself right into the core of the Ethereum community and kind of led the charge for Dows.

Starting point is 00:00:57 He was one of the earliest Dowers to really kind of re-exempted. reinvigorate this whole Dow revolution starting, I think, in maybe early 2019, um, Peter's legacy, along with others as well is Metacartel. Metacartel was the first Dow after Moloch Dow to really use the Dope Molok framework and to try and bestow part of what its visions should be upon the world via funding grants. But it's really turned into much, much more than that. I think metacartel is, um, it's a meme that is also, a public good, kind of. It's a vibe that we all as a collective humanity can tap into. Defining metacartel, I think, is inherently impossible. But I think you will, as a listener,

Starting point is 00:01:46 understand why after you listen to this conversation with Peter Pan. So without further ado, let's go ahead and get right into that conversation. But before we do, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible. Bankless is proud to be supported by Uniswap. Uniswap is a new paradigm in asset exchange infrastructure. Instead of a cumbersome order book system where trades are matched with other humans, uniswap is an autonomous piece of software on Ethereum, which is what Ryan and I call a money robot. No human counterparties or centralized intermediaries,

Starting point is 00:02:17 just autonomous code on Ethereum. Input the token you want to sell and receive the token you want to buy. Something brand new in the Uniswap ecosystem is the Uniswap grants program is now accepting applications for grants. We have been saying this for a while and we'll say it again. Dow's have money and they are in need of labor. If you think that you have something to contribute to the Uniswap Dow, apply for a grant to Uniswap. Just look at the size of the Uniswap treasury.

Starting point is 00:02:44 It's almost $3 billion. This mountain of capital is looking for labor. Do you have something of value to contribute to the Uniswap Dow? No matter how big or small your idea is, you can apply for a UniGrant at Unigrants.org and help steer Uniswap in the direction that you think. it should go. That's exactly what we did to get Uniswap to be a sponsor for Bankless, and you can do the same for your project. Thank you Uniswap for sponsoring Bankless. The era of Proof of Stake is upon us. Proof of Stake systems like Ethereum, Terra, and Solana

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Starting point is 00:03:58 simply go to lydo.FI, choose which assets you want to stake and deposit them to the Lido validating network. Lido is working to make sure proof of stake stays as decentralized as possible and is committed to decentralizing its own validating network to eventually become a completely permissionless protocol. So if you want to stake your ETH, Terra, or Seoul, and get liquidity on your stake, go to lydo.fi to get started. All right, guys, we are here with Peter Pan. Peter, what's up? It is a pleasure to be back on bankless. Well, layer zero, I guess. Layer zero, no. Yeah. You have different serieses, right? Yeah. So you have different like

Starting point is 00:04:39 serieses and focuses and totally. Yeah. Layer zero is just basically the Tuesday flavor of bankless at this point. So yeah, it's the bankless podcast, but the layer zero sub category, I guess. Yeah, I'm stoked to get you on for longer than just 30 minutes because the only other time we've had you on the show was the 30 minute pre-interview about what it was like to write that before a Bitcoin series, which turned into like an audiobook type podcast. Yeah. I think, yeah, that was beautiful. Thank you so much for doing that.

Starting point is 00:05:12 Yeah. Thank you for. It was so weird because, yeah, it was like I wrote it and like when it first came into crypto and like no one taught, like some people read it. So it's cool. but no one really like Sean is, like no one cared about it for pretty much two and a half years. Yeah. Right.

Starting point is 00:05:33 When you wrote it, it was in the depth of the 2017 mania, right? So like not necessarily the community that would appreciate a post of that nature. So the funny thing was that, yeah, this was one of the first things. I discovered Kirkrow started going to rush like workshops at dev workshops since 17. But I think in 2018, I went full-time, just like, I want to learn about the space. I want to find a job. I want to do stuff in here. And I started asking questions really on a fundamental basis of like, you know, what is

Starting point is 00:06:02 crypto, what is blockchain, what is technology? Like, what is cryptography who created cryptography? And when I wrote it, it was just like I couldn't, I wanted to say, Drew, through the history, I first started talking to crypto people again. I realized I couldn't really, I didn't, I basically didn't shut up about this stuff. And then I think that's when I realized. I should, I should write this down. And I think the series was mostly finished when the time I went to my first ever crypto conference in May 2018.

Starting point is 00:06:34 That's right. In Toronto for EdCon. I was a sponsor, it was a sponsored trip. Like some people, Bucky Pooh Bar in Sydney funded me to go on a scholarship to go to the conference. And I didn't know anyone. I didn't have any friends. And so in the hashtag edcon, hashtag for the conference, I just posted, like, I kept them posting this link of, like, the 70s intro to history on before Bitcoin.

Starting point is 00:07:02 And surprisingly, I had met a few people such as Philip and Chris Safer, like, who are working on brainbot and I'm token back then, like, just different people I know, although to today that, like, actually, like, came across what I wrote and then, like, actually read all of it. Because you just tweeted out the link with the hashtag, just because you spanned it? Yeah, I barely had any crypto followers or anything. And I was just like spamming that hashtag of like, hey, check this out, the history of crypto. That's hilarious. Not too many people know this.

Starting point is 00:07:34 I kind of have a similar like entrance into crypto for at Eath, Denver 2018. I wrote out some essays that I thought would be interesting. And I didn't have a medium account. I didn't know what a medium account was at the time. and so I printed out these essays and I was handing them. I literally had a backpack that felt like 20 pounds of paper and I was handing them out physically to people at East Denver, 2018. I think some of the early cypherpunks did that as well. I thought who it was, but, you know, they were handing out the Cypherpunk manifesto and paper to people.

Starting point is 00:08:08 Right, but they were doing that in the 80s and 90s, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. After a medium had been invented. Yeah, that's right. Good point. Okay, so the very basic question that I think I'll start with is like, what was your first entrance into crypto? How did crypto land in your life?

Starting point is 00:08:28 Honestly, I think, well, I think this went back to 2012 and 14 when I was online. I was like doing weird internet things. I was like learning how to like, it's like they were online. They were like weird forums. about things such as like how do you social like social engineer systems so you can get like free cans of red bull right or like you know you learn it's like it was a whole forum about like you know weird tricks in society like in life sort of it's like real life bugs like real life exploits yeah it's like really exactly real life exploits and bugs that was sort of harmless right like how do you get

Starting point is 00:09:03 free cans of red balls like you message the support being like oh my god i've bought six cans and there absolutely nothing in all of them they'll air i want to i would like a replacement, please, right? Or like, how do you get a small fry at McDonald's for free? Just go when it's busy and ask they missed it. Right. We had little society bugs like this. And that and one of the firms was like, yeah, they were like, you know, it's like, hey, you can earn several dollars a day clicking captures. And that happened to be a site where you basically like, it was like Bitcoin false. It's back in 2012 or 13. And that's where I discovered Bitcoin I just like for a day or two.

Starting point is 00:09:43 And like, you know, barely cents just clicking on captures and like getting Bitcoin from different drips and faucets. And I think that's when, yeah, and I didn't think too much about it. I was like, this is weird. Why am I doing this? This is, I'm going to stop doing this. This is like a very little benefit to me. Was it because of the money or just because you could?

Starting point is 00:10:05 Because it could. I was like fascinated. I like set up wallets. I was like collecting like. mini bits of Satoshes every time. And I just went down different rabbit holes, you know, on the internet like that. So like, you know, I saw the account to today. So it's like today it's like $70 maybe, right?

Starting point is 00:10:24 But like that was about to ask, like, wow, did you, were you one of those few people that actually kept the private keys of their first bitcoins they ever got? Yeah. I actually surprisingly, I don't know how I dug it up. But I like, I remember one day I was just like looking like, I wonder if like. I have anything. I just like social email and yeah, I still have it actually. Too bad.

Starting point is 00:10:46 Air drops aren't really a thing on Bitcoin because those walls would have been on time if they were. Yeah. Yeah. So I learned about that then, Skip didn't care anything about it. I was really like working mostly like tech setups in Sydney in like 17, 16 and 18. And around that time period.

Starting point is 00:11:07 And I sort of got bored of like building Web 2. and I think I started exploring again. And, you know, I think I started hearing about, like, I think in the early 17, like people talking about investing in Ethereum out, like, you know, and I was like, wait, what's Ethereum? And I learned there was like many different cryptos other than just Bitcoin. Like I heard about like OMG, made safe, like, see a coin and like, what the hell is Nosis?

Starting point is 00:11:32 I'm like, what the hell is all of this? And then that wasn't so basically like watching YouTube shitcoins for like, She coined videos for a while until I think in September, October of 2017, where I went to my first ever crypto workshop, where that Bucky Poova, the legendary dev of the godfather of crypto in Sydney, basically it was back then running four-hour workshops at a time, several times a week, around like, what is a private key? What is a blockchain network? It's like, what is what does it look like to run a light node, sync a light node, right? And that's when I went to my first one, I was like, basically, like, it blew my mind.

Starting point is 00:12:11 Like, I was like, whoa, that's like, this is way more than just like, speculative investments. This is like entire like platform. Like, this is something that was going to be super huge and just like fell down the rabbit hole pretty hard. Like I went to every one of the workshops pretty much afterwards. And yeah, and I think that was my entry into crypto. So there's often.

Starting point is 00:12:38 at least for people who come into the Ethereum community, there's like two aha moments. There's the aha moment of like, oh, this crypto thing is for real and is here to stay. And then there's the aha moment. It's like, oh, this crypto thing is really all becoming encapsulated by Ethereum. Did you have those two aha moments as well? It's not like you definitely had the first.

Starting point is 00:12:56 You just described it. Was there in a lot of Ethereum aha moment? To be honest, I was definitely an exalp holder in the beginning. I bought everything. I bought Lycoin. I bought Minera. I bought XRPioles. I was like, and I think I showed up to that dev workshop being like, yeah, I'm an investor.

Starting point is 00:13:12 Like, I, you know, and they're like, what are you investing? Like, oh, like, Ripple's going to be totally like, revolutionary. Thank you. And they're like, I sort of now understand why they're looking at me in a weird way. Right. And I think over time, like, what I, I just realized that all these really shady people are like hanging around all the other projects and only really the real developers and builders were hanging around like the Affirium community.

Starting point is 00:13:41 So I sort of like naturally like, you know, made that realization of like, oh, this might be the most legitimate one. Right. You know, the developer that you were talking about who's leading the workshop when he was talking about private keys and blockchain networks, was he was using Ethereum as like the model or was it more just like technology independent? No, it was definitely Ethereum. He was showing me, uh, if like light node syncing, he was showing us how to deploy, uh,

Starting point is 00:14:08 EOSC 20 contract for remix, you know, and we were using like, you know, I think, EFa wallet back then as well. Yeah, it was like very eFentric. So yeah, yeah. When you were, you said you got bored with working on Web2 and you worked for tech startups. So what were you doing for tech startups? Like what was your like technical skill set before you came into crypto? Yeah, I was a UX designer.

Starting point is 00:14:32 So I talked to all the users, right? So the last project, like Web2 product I walked on was, cancer aid. So it was like basically, this, it's basically like if you get cancer, you, mostly like are guided by treatment plans and like, you know, based on paper, right? Like, you know, there's no real way to actually like deliver information real time from like yourself to like, you know, clinicians, right? So like the whole life cycle, like getting cancer and like going into remission and like treatment, like it was just, it was like in short. and like stone basically, right? So it was like I was working in the app that basically collected

Starting point is 00:15:12 old data fed it to clinicians and I was a person really understanding, talking to all the cancer patients, clinicians, family members, everyone part of the journey and just like understanding the problem space. This was like very early on with the startup now. It's still running today. And yeah, I was I just talked, I was the person that talked to everyone and put the details into a doc and distilled them into products and like features and problems. and data to business marketing and product. And I designed UI, but a lot of it was talking to people. What about that like behavior or activity?

Starting point is 00:15:50 Do you see yourself like recycling skills into this current Web3 crypto world? Yeah, I sort of feel like I hadn't like with community building. I just like, well, I feel like with community building, that's a lot of what I've done in the last couple of years. so did a lot of today, like Alice helping projects for this. And I would say that a lot of it is just like I take a, I really, I guess, take a lot from product design and U.Rx design and user research because I think in product design, right, like you, the heuristic or what you're taught is basically to really focus on user needs

Starting point is 00:16:29 and, you know, build empathy with users and customers, right? And I feel like the equivalent of that, of being user, like having user and product obsession in Web 2 is like the Web3 equivalent is probably like being community for us and having empathy for community members, right? So I think that it's really the same thing. And like design in general, it's like design is a process, right, of like identifying problem space, ideating solutions, testing it, iterating, getting feedback, right? And with product design, you know, I guess it will be a UI designer, web designer,

Starting point is 00:17:03 or mobile designer, you just basically, you're assigned specific mediums in which you execute design for it, right? Like, you know, whether you're a graphic designer as well, visual designer, motion designer, you have techniques and tools to solve the problem, right? Or create an outcome or create experience. I feel like with, you know, building communities,

Starting point is 00:17:26 it's really designing, you're designing an outcome, you're designing an environment, designing a journey for people to go on to reach a certain goal. Instead of, you know, wireframes as being the medium which you express the design through, you're doing that through communication, text, storytelling, organizing the layouts of discords, even to branding, to, you know, all these things and to relationship building. These are your tools. And, you know, instead of me looking at sketch and drawing boxes all day and using dropshadows,

Starting point is 00:17:57 it's probably more like people are more of the interface for community building. So this is the analogy I've always had, you know, and whenever I'm stuck, I usually think, like, what, how do I design myself out of a situation or so on? So when I, this is really interesting and I'm trying to figure out the right question to ask. So it feels a little bit like social engineering, right? Where with U.S., you're trying to optimize towards an outcome. My social engineering has like a very negative connotation, but right, like, it does. It's a very shady, it's very shady connotations. Like, no, it's not good.

Starting point is 00:18:35 Right. But also, like, almost explicitly, crypto is we are trying to, we have tools to tinker with incentives. What does that mean? We're tinkering with social dynamics, right? And in the intro to the show, I always say, cypherpunks know that the code they write creates social systems or impacts the people that use it, right? And so, like, when we're designing these communities, like, when you're a U.S.

Starting point is 00:18:59 designer, you're trying to just basically eat. ease the frictions to get the outcome that you want, right? Like, we have this outcome. We want to make as many users as possible go through the complete process and actually achieve the outcome. With like communities, they're almost like, isn't an outcome because the community needs to define the outcome. All your job is to do is to get people into the community, right?

Starting point is 00:19:20 And have the community figure out the outcome. I think different communities can exist in different ways, right? Like, you know, the way you described, like, you know, the community decides outcome. Totally right. But a part of that journey is like helping like often like times it's like facilitating that discovery of what that community wants and creating like creating clarity, right? Like that is also the process. And once you have some level of clarity, it's like people like, I guess your job is to help

Starting point is 00:19:47 people get that. Right. So in a way, it's very, it definitely is very emergent. But there's also something very like operationally rigorous about like once you've like identified what the community wants. you've often also have to help the community get momentum and find, make its steps towards that, right? That's why I think oftentimes, like,

Starting point is 00:20:10 the moment in which a community really becomes alive is often when, like, do you find the communities for us win? It's like, you know, there's plenty of groups that come together that want to do things, but they often fizz away because nothing ever gets done. There's no ownership, right? And oftentimes I feel like the key there between, like, fizzling out and, like, really becoming. something special where everyone jumps on and adds on is like, you know, sparking the first win,

Starting point is 00:20:35 the first victory for that group and getting, making sure that it's a victory that everyone can feel so that some sense of ownership around, right? Do you think that like, so imagine a hypothetical community has come together. There's a decent amount of energy in there, but there's no W's yet. There's no wins. But there's some semblance of shared purpose and reasoning goals in some direction as like, we don't know where our wins are going to be, but we're going to be, they're going to be, going to be over here. Like we're going to go that way, find a W out there.

Starting point is 00:21:04 Right. Do you think that like maybe the actual instantiation of finding that W can actually change the out, the direction of the communities? Like, well, there's 30 degrees of direction that we're going to go. We're actually going to go 30 degrees to the left or and we're also going to go 30 degrees to the right. But we're going forwards. But the actually find the win. 30 degrees to the left. And so everyone stops going right. And because the win was over to the left, the win actually dictates the future direction.

Starting point is 00:21:37 Have you seen anything like that? I've seen communities where, yes, it definitely has dictated that. But I feel like the story of medical is the opposite. Oh, tell me. A lot of medical hotel has been like, I've always been very like, very like organized.

Starting point is 00:21:53 So like I want to like make sure we like find wind, structured winds. But it's always like, I feel like whenever I've tried to guide, the community in many ways. It's what I've ended up achieving is more like performing inception to people, making sure that like, you know,

Starting point is 00:22:07 it's like, we need to go somewhere. Let's go. I think we're in this direction. And then like some people resist. It's sort of the meme doesn't catch on. And I'm like, all right, whatever. And then very naturally, we actually do go somewhere because people are generally aligned of like the requirements

Starting point is 00:22:23 of where we need to go. And strangely enough, it's like the answer is very, emerging, right? And then over time, I realize that, you know, you need enough chaos and noise to exist, you know, like that is actually something, like, you know, a good thing. You want a lot of, you know, like, sort of friction and like bouncing, you want ideas to float in and out. You want that to be collisions of ideas. And that's sort of where, you know, yeah, the men pole of ideas. And that's where I think, you know, yeah, direction comes from. So like, I realize instead of like, forming direction first, you know, like one of the things I, the mentality shifts I went from

Starting point is 00:23:03 in terms of making doubt proposals was like instead of like pointing in a single direction first, I, you know, I started writing proposals that really just outlined the vision of where we want to go and then getting alignment there. And then just like holding discussions around that vision. And then very naturally the sort of the actual tactical direction really emerges from some of the members, right? Like it just, it sort of clicks when, the right meme comes abroad, right? Yeah, and so that's how I've learned sort of how to operate. There seems to be like a chicken and an egg discussion here, right?

Starting point is 00:23:38 Like, do the visions dictate the wins or do the wins dictate the visions? And, I mean, it sounds like there's an interaction between those two things. Do you have an opinion on which one's more important? I don't think the, sometimes one is important. sometimes a long-term direction is more important than the current short-term focus, but sometimes you need to also run with it. Sort of like, I feel like running communities or fostering communities is a bit like being sort of a DJ, sort of like, you know, you're like, you're mixing tracks that work

Starting point is 00:24:15 while with each other. You sort of know what tracks are putting on, but at the same time, you're reading the room. And the next track that you thought was going to be good 20 minutes ago, might not be the right track now, like, you know, but there might so be this overall theme that you want to like mix throughout the night with, right? Like you have a certain set of song selections, right, that you want to like play within. And there's no right answer, but like, you know, so I think you have to be really present and sort of have your finger on the pulse on making sure you go explore the areas that the community

Starting point is 00:24:50 wants to explore. And at certain times, make tradeoffs to just like push a community in a certain area because the need to go, what it needs to go, right? And I think that is like the, you know, like it's like not too much salt, not too little, just just right, just enough, right? So that's a cooking analogy, I guess. It's like, you know, yeah. It makes sense because when you're, I'm not a DJ.

Starting point is 00:25:16 I think you are, or at least you very much appreciate people that DJ. Yeah, I appreciate my warehouse raves and sounds. Yeah. Okay, okay. So it seems to be like the shared goal behind like a crypto community, a community at large, but like what we're really talking about crypto communities. And a DJ is like there's an energy, right? There's a vibe that must be sustained. And the DJ's job is to sustain the vibe while also directing it, right? Like making sure the vibe stays alive. And same thing with a with a community, right? Like there's a vibe. And the best thing, the goal of a community is to make. that vibe shared by more people, right? So DJs want their music to be listened to by more people. Defi communities or crypto communities want their community values to be shared and vived with by more people and then have that vibe become like stronger and stronger and stronger over time. Right. It's just like this core energy of like saying there's probably other examples as well.

Starting point is 00:26:15 Yeah, I know. I know. Also like time. This is perfect way to describe it. And yeah. And there's you know, it's like oftentimes in Dallas, it's like, get shit done or have fun or do both. And like, you want to have a bunch of mix of both and do things that's in line with the vibe of a community, right? Yeah. And like there's got to be some sort of semblance balance between like play and work and play, right? Because if you're all, if everyone in the doubt is working and no one's playing, well, is that really a vibe? But also if everyone is playing and not working, then like the vibe's going to die. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:26:51 has like all the economic resources are going to get expended. Yeah, absolutely right. The whole coming like revolution. This should be a chart. It's like the trade up of like guys are vibing way to work. Yeah, it's like the future like NBA, the crypto version NBA is like by being working. It's like we've got to find the perfect triangle like of equality here. you know um work hard playing hard makes a good vibe yeah the conjoined triangles of viving and

Starting point is 00:27:27 uh working there's something here somebody else take this and run with it um peter what was the the first like crypto community that you felt aligned with and identified with good question um I would definitely say I came across, oh, that's right, yes, this is, so my first crypto conference, like, in May of 2018, you know, at Contamarto, the day before the conference I went to this event where, you know, like people were talking about EIP Zero. It was a, back then, I think the sharing community was like, basically in a bit of a bit of a. shit show, like, you know, because the EIP 999 just happened, which is basically this like idea to hard fork, right? Oh, no, no. It was like, I think parodies proposal. I'm not sure what it exactly was, but I think it's parody's proposal to like, like, hard fork if you're in, but that was shut down because like there was like parity multi-sick hack. Yeah, no, that,

Starting point is 00:28:33 I think that was right. Yeah. And the funny thing was also EIP 999 backwards is like 666 die. I just remember that. Like that meme. So yeah, people were talking about EIP0, I mean, EFP 99, so like, you know, huge contention because like, if I'm hard-forked from the Dow and that happened, right? But what about parity motoristig, you know, blah, blah, blah.

Starting point is 00:29:02 So the IP0 was an effort to basically go around the entire Affirm community to collect feedback on how Ephraim should be governed, what its values were, right? It was one of the first attempts to really put in some paper. There's a reference to layer zero here somewhere with EIP Zero. It's like the genesis of the culture, right? That's right. And I think that was an online survey and I was like helping like collate the survey responses

Starting point is 00:29:29 together right in a Figma board. But that was a meetup like held by the few magicians. That was in charge of like hosting discussion about EIP zero and EIP 999. And I think there was like, Justice Steiner, like, it was Lane, Red Tick, like, Hudson, I think Griff, Greene. They were on a couch and there was like some downtown Toronto meet the space. There was like L4 there. Like all the people I saw on Twitter, but were like just on all of that, like RL in the couch,

Starting point is 00:30:03 like talking about this stuff. And I was just like sitting there like this like little, you know, done nut just like listening in and like trying to keep up. And I think that resonated because they were truly trying to, like, protect something important, which is, like, the community around Ethereum, right? And making sure it doesn't, like, fragment and, you know, making sure governance was sort of, sort of conducted in an open fashion. I really, I think that's the first community I really, like, resigning with.

Starting point is 00:30:30 And, like, Boris Mann was sort of really in the weeds there, helping coordinate everything. And I was trying to do, I wasn't, I couldn't really participate in any of the discussions. So I just, like, did the dumb, stupid stuff. like, hey, I cleaned up the GitHub issues. I tagged all the posts. You know, I wrote the notes for this, right? I did things such as like, oh, let's like, don't know anything about the product managers in Ethereum and Web Free back then.

Starting point is 00:30:56 So I'm going to do eF product interviews, right, on everyone, on all the PMs I knew. And yeah, and at that meetup, I just like remember being like, wow, this is like, it's like such a privilege potentially to like contribute to something so big, right? And that was like, what's a strong impression? I was like, I want to, I want to do important work one day, like these people. Having the Ethereum cat herders as your first community that you came into with is an insanely awesome answer. I was expected to hear some random community that died out a few, a few months later. If I joined today, it'd be like, oh my, hey, I join this like social token thing. Like, um, it's like, we're all getting tattoos.

Starting point is 00:31:40 You know, like, I'm sure there's going to be an organization like that. If it's not, if not already. Oh, it exists. Oh, yeah, no. Wait,

Starting point is 00:31:49 is it, is it the NFT or what is it? Non-fundable. Yeah, hashtag shout out to proof of ink Dow. Proof of ink Dow. I have not inquired as to how I get my ink. They're not real tattoos, though, right?

Starting point is 00:32:03 No, that 100% real. There's about like 12-21. Oh, boy. I'm not sure I'm ready to try that. Hang on. I'm not done with the, theory of Katner's section.

Starting point is 00:32:11 Yeah. Why, why, you hinted to it, but I just want to want you to unpack and elaborate, like, why did you decide to commit so much energy to this organization that you just met? Like, what motivated you to do, like, the basic stuff, even when you couldn't understand the bigger stuff? To be honest, when I first, I guess, uh, joined the firm, like, when I, I guess it goes back to before Bitcoin that series tonight. Like, I originally would join just like, I want to like, I knew, like, I knew, like,

Starting point is 00:32:40 like, I think late 17, after going through the workshops, I knew that crypto web free and a firm was like going to be, like, it was the most, I was so sure. I didn't, I couldn't explain it to someone very coherently. I couldn't, I didn't do anything in it meaningfully, but I just, I knew it was like the, the first meaningful adventure debt, you know, of crypto, really, which was like my dedication of time and energy. It was like, I just was so sure that this was going to be a thing. It was almost undeniable. Like, it just felt so obvious. And I was like, it just made sense to get a head start.

Starting point is 00:33:13 I had a fun one and everyone else and, like, learn about all of this before. It became even more complex. And then, you know, that when I went into sort of the history of cryptography and realized this connection to the cypherpunks, I sort of became very inspired by the sacrifices and all the work that people did, you know, back in the 70s and 80s and 90s. I really, you know, for the first year, you know, at least from the start of my journey in Soferium, I felt very inspired to like do something meaningful, like do work that would be eventually like recognized somewhere, you know, like in the like in 50 years later, like my one wish is like have some piece of walk that I've like walked on just like remembered

Starting point is 00:33:58 as like somewhat sort of a building block, right? So like that was very inspiring. And so I felt like this was important, worthy work that needed to be done and no one else was going to do this, nor could I really concentrate in any other fashion. Like, you know, everyone else was back then, everyone was hiring developers, but no one needed like community builders or like comms. Like, you know, people who can't code effectively, right, aren't engineers. So I felt like this is the best grunt work I can do and serve this sort of movement, right? So that's what I did. And so your resume also includes being a very early, if not the earliest member of Metacartel. How far ahead in the story am I skipping ahead here?

Starting point is 00:34:47 You know, maybe so Metacartel, really the formations happened, you know, in September of 2000, of that year, 2018. That's right. So, yeah, like I think, you know, basically Metacartle originally was a technical. technical working group around a U.S. solution known as meta-transactions. Hence the name. Right. Right. Wow. That is a trip.

Starting point is 00:35:12 Yes. Yes. Okay. Sorry. Keep going. Yeah. So in the same edcon, I believe, in Toronto, there was a U.S. Unconference. And that U.S. Unconference, Alex Van derision presented universal Loggins, a U.S. Logging solution that used gasless voting and multi-sig key management, right? And that was like revolutionary. And like everyone's like, oh my God, this is like the future of US. We're going to bring mass adoption.

Starting point is 00:35:39 You know, mass adoption is like solved. And I guess this, his technology is like he outlined. He didn't really, Alex Anderson didn't invent meta transactions, but he was the first one that really popularized. And then brought it into the minds of everyone, right? And so his video of tournament universal Logan spread around. And, you know, I think, you know, I started working. project that also wanted to work in the same area as meta transactions. So, and I think the first ever like real life working group that emerged

Starting point is 00:36:12 around meta transactions was in the first ever, if Berlin, in 2018. And yeah, that's, and I remember very distinctly, almost photographically, like the first meeting of MP, like people from staff from nurses, like people in status, just gathering in the whole of factory Berlin, you know, just, hey, like, we're here. Like, let's talk about metatransactions and how do we stand. What do we need to do? Like, standardize the contract interface.

Starting point is 00:36:43 Can we create a decentralized metatransactions network? And after that event, we started a telegram group, which is, which is still alive today, which is like the main ecosystem chat from medical hotel. Like, it's sort of just like general news and stuff like that. But, you know, where we started the Metatransactions Working Group. And then we thought that was a boring name after a couple weeks. So we put up a vote on which name we should name the working group. And I think, you know, we named it Metacartel because actually that wasn't the first name we voted it on for.

Starting point is 00:37:16 The first name was El Cartel Delamatta. I think that was like MPs. Like it was just like a weird, it was like at first vote, it seemed it won the outstanding vote. But like it just was not very easy to pronounce. Bad meme. The second most bad meme. Bad meme. Immediately bad meme. It was not even like that long. It was like half a day later, we would realize this is bad. Let's change it to Meta Cartel. And the one that was voted in was like meta, meta, space cartel. And they were like, no. And then MP was like, no, you put it together.

Starting point is 00:37:49 Right. So it's like meta cartel. And then that's, I guess, a meme is like, we're the only ones. What can Reddit transactions? Cartel of knowledge. How many people were there in this algorithm chat at the time? No more than like 17, 20. And so we were writing the meetings. We were writing meeting notes and we wrote down everyone who attended as well. So I think like, you know, we saw the hack and D documents like back then. What's like we also, I also wrote like a blog post overview of all the problems we were trying to solve. Right.

Starting point is 00:38:21 And yeah, it's like no more than 25, 20, 20 people were trying to work on this back then. Yeah. And so that, a group of people working on these like problems that we're trying to solve that reminds me of one of the talks that I listened to at MCon where somebody, it might have been you actually, talked about how meta cartel was formed, at least at the maybe it was the Meta Cartel Venture side, trying to fund projects that were solving the problems that Meta Cartel ran into. And so like kind of linking this back into our discussion about like how a community establishes a vision for itself. A, it's very, very emergent. But it seems to be like this community,

Starting point is 00:39:02 just formed around like, hey, there's this technology called Metatransactions. It can be a huge UX upgrade. Everyone here believes, sees that vision of the huge UX upgrade. So let's form a group around this. And all of a sudden that group turned into a more instantiated community. What was the next steps after putting everyone into a telegram and like finding a name for the organization? What happened next? Yeah, I guess the fun fact was Austin Griffith was the first one to join that telegram group chat as well.

Starting point is 00:39:31 Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. I saw the screenshot that's like, um, and so yeah, after people joined, um, we like met offline a couple times like,

Starting point is 00:39:40 like east San Francisco where we were like hung out, did things. And it was, it was like in October, like, early October, we had Eve San Francisco and that's where the medical logo came about as well.

Starting point is 00:39:52 Um, and he was like, the metacartel logo is a chili pepper in a sombrero. It was dancing and a miraculous. And it was MP, yeah, dictate. and there was Frankie Nines as well, like drawing the thing.

Starting point is 00:40:05 And when I came out, I was like, this is awful. Like I wanted to be a serious, serious, like, research group. I was like, I need a job. I sort of need some credibility. Like, you know, I'm like putting effort into this volunteer. Sort of, like, come on. Like, and then like, people love the chili logo. And I'm like, really.

Starting point is 00:40:26 Well, at the same time, Ethereum had his unicorn logo. So maybe you were in the mindset of just like, hey, I need to look professional because that's what this world is about. Is that the mindset? Yeah. Yeah. I think I had this mindset of like, I need to look professional because like for us, like, I'm like, I'm like getting to the end of the year and I haven't like done anything.

Starting point is 00:40:45 Like, you know, I haven't like, and I like need to like, I'm like, I'm running out of money. I like, I need a job. Like I'm like that was like, like, okay. And but, you know, like I grew to love it over time. But, you know, back then I was like, oh, God, really. Just like, okay, whatever. I was like disgruntedly, like, accepted the logo. So that's an example where, like, I really wanted to be one thing,

Starting point is 00:41:07 but if you love to, we want more of it, right? So, yeah, and I guess the unique part about the initial seed of Metacotel was that there was a lot of people who joined the community. Like a lot of people that was part of the initial technical working group around use experience. What, like, if you're M OGs, there were definitely some, right? Like, really, like, people who are around, like, Stefan from Nosis and people like that. But it was like a lot of new people.

Starting point is 00:41:34 And I think that's what like really spiced up the group from the beginning. It was just like people who came in 17, early 18, who just like were application scrubs. Like we didn't like, you couldn't work on what base layer stuff. We couldn't work in scaling. We just like wanted to build cool stuff, right? Like for end users. And that's what we get about. And that I think ceded a lot of the DNA of like MetaKatoll, which is like, you know,

Starting point is 00:41:58 have fun. Do you think like run it like sort of run and gun like you know Mufuson experiment which is the opposite of the firman back then which is like how do we like build the next thousand years of theory You know how do we You know yeah build all this infrastructure we want we just wanted to Experiment and move off and It was a fairly counterintuitive sort of mindset as well like and that's what actually I think like signaled and attracted all this all the interesting people that that became at a cuttle, you know, like, you know, early on.

Starting point is 00:42:34 There's definitely this like generational phenomenon where generations in crypto find themselves. Like they all, like we all got into crypto with the same background. Like we all, here's like the centralized blockchain scam that we all fell for at the same time. And then and then we found Ethereum all less more in the same like few months or so. And then everyone finds like commonality in that when they actually got into. into crypto. Hey guys, in the second half of the show, the story of Meta Cartel continues. It is an endless story. It's a long-term games story. So the story, hopefully, by definition, does not end. But unfortunately, we have to break up the podcast to talk about some of these

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Starting point is 00:45:53 what was the motivational energy to keep this organization like coherent? Was it considered an organization at this point? Or were we still kind of in just like, oh, yeah, there's like a group of people under this like label. Take us from the pre-organization to actually an organization. Yeah. Yeah, that's a very good framing. Yeah, it was like honestly because it had like the chili logo and I think because that helps much actually. Like, I'm so thankful, like, because of that, because if it was a serious thing, I might have

Starting point is 00:46:27 treated it more like a serious thing, but because it had a chili logo and, like, had at least amazingly, like, smart people crowd around it. And, like, for some reason, it's still gained a lot of legitimacy. Like, you know, you just, like, had smart people coming in to, like, collaborate and solve problems. And I, but despite that, I just sort of brought up as a huge joke that got bigger and bigger. Like, we, like, printed out a medical shirt and, like, gave it to Alex Van derision to wear, and we printed the logo on the wrong side of the shirt. It was backwards. On purpose? Like, Alex Jensen were, no, we made a mistake. It was just like, why the like, some printed shirts? And for some reason, the logo's on the back, we're like, who the hell

Starting point is 00:47:07 did this? And then we wanted to have Alex Vennyson wear it, but he's just like, oh, yeah, I'll wear it backwards. So I don't know if you can find it, but in 2018 in Prague, he was giving a talk, and he was just totally backward shirt, like just looks weird. And yeah, and then we were like, oh, my God, like, Alex Nansen's wearing our shirt, wearing the medical cell shirt, you know, and I think then I had a, I remember the interaction where I was trying to give Joseph Lubin sitting in the front row a medical toll or go like sicker, and he's like, what the hell is this? And I just sort of shied away. I didn't explain it. I was just like, look, have it. This is enough.

Starting point is 00:47:48 And so, yeah, anyways, we try to solve many transactions over the new, like, I think at progress, when we made a breakthrough and, like, you know, a lot of the main problems are solved around meta transactions. And that's where the gas station network came about when Tabuki really made this, like, the design shift, you know. And yeah, I think it would, I think in the new year's, like, early 2019, then, like, you know, Yves Denver or whatever, like, I wasn't at there, Yip Denver. but like and a lot of the research problems are over. So I felt like, okay, this is, this was like a fun thing. This is done. I didn't even think about it, right? Until I think like, you know, people, someone was like in the telegrammedicotocatal chat, like, hey, like, where are we meeting up?

Starting point is 00:48:35 And this was like for Yves Denver. Like meet up to do what? Like, like, and I guess at that point, we had like spent a lot of time together as a group. Like we had, you know, hosted dinners that we took at whole restaurants. out, filled out the whole restaurant. You know, we've like did a lot of research calls offline and online and it became, I think when the first person volunteered to, you know, like, volunteer to run the meetup and fund the meetup and like find sponsors and the autonomy came together. I think that's when I really started taking medical consult very seriously. I was like, wow,

Starting point is 00:49:10 this is like, there's now a community here. It is not just me trying to keep it alive, you know. And I think that's when I was like, okay, like, I'm going to dedicate this next year. Like, I love timeboxing initiatives and sprints. Like, I'm going to timebox one more year or one year to purely focus on growing Metacotile as a community. And I just knew that it was a very valuable hub of people who have very application minded. And I didn't really know where I would go. I, like, you know, I talked a lot with Drew Harding and James Young, like, back in late 2018,

Starting point is 00:49:43 about like, should we create like a DAP development, you know, studio, adventure studio, can we create a DAP incubator? And I think that's where my mind went. It's like, how do we get more DAPs? How do you build more daps and how to experiment more use cases? And it took on more generalistic sort of focus of like, let's build stuff that's useful. Absolutely did not get that off the ground because no credibility. There's no money.

Starting point is 00:50:09 There's any, well, no track record as well. And really failed to, like I think we tried. I literally try to form a DACA incubated, but we're like, whether we get money, like, I don't know. Like, do you know? Like, we're just, you know, we're really clueless. No one has the ether. Yeah, like, we've got the money. Yeah, we like, yeah, we're like, um, how do you do this thing?

Starting point is 00:50:35 Like, I don't know. So, um, we fluffed around for a bit more until I think. And that was also when Mollick Dow was launching. And I think James Young was talking about Mollock picked out to me, yapping is goddamn. air off to me, like, you know, about Mollock Dow, Dow's quote, and I basically like blocked any sentence in my mind, Mollick and Dow in it for like a well until I think I realized that like when Mollogdow made its first grant. And I was like, wow, like this is the first ever Dow I've ever seen

Starting point is 00:51:05 existence that is actually like creating Grove Valley today. And that's when I really like started to park up and like, oh, wow, I want to join this thing. And, you know, obviously, didn't let me because I was poor and I no one knew who I was as well but you know that was the moment where I was like fuck you guys I'm gonna

Starting point is 00:51:30 create my own Dow or like as a joke just it was initially a joke I had a chat call of Cassandra and a mean like as a after like a debrief of like why the fuck was I like not allowed to give way my own money and volunteer Yeah. It was like, yeah, and then they're like, why don't you create your own DAO or turn Metacartel in a Dow or launch a Dow from Metacostole? And I was like, great, let's, why not do like

Starting point is 00:51:58 a Grant Stout, focusing like a Mulletow, but focus on like the application layer. Right. Right. Yeah, that's what Metacartel. That was my first impression of Metacartel was just another Molok Dow, but it was with a more specific direction of what it wanted to fund. And it was like, it was Moloch Dow for the Ux layer. Is that right? Yeah, absolutely. And I spent about a month talking to fill my days up of calls, like 10, 12 calls at a time, just talking to everyone I knew in the space, which is not a lot and just ask everyone

Starting point is 00:52:32 for money to put into a Dow. And I think that back then, that was sort of not exciting, but not exciting enough. And I think like, you know, we announced it down, like, you know, but surprise. When we announced it more publicly, people really wanted to experiment with downs. And I think even more after when like Joseph Lubin and Battalic and consensus, yeah, put in like four million, four, five million dollars in Somalekdale, it was like, oh, wow, this is like, this is happening, right? So, but even then, we could barely scrape together $150,000 by June to launch the thing. Like, it was honestly a dire sort of effort of like, and it was, I guess like we scraped together maybe 1.5,000 beef. At the time, it was just like $100 roughly or even less if than that.

Starting point is 00:53:20 Oh, no, it's definitely less. It was like 900, 800, yeah. And we were just like trying to figure this out. I was super scared. Like never done a down before. Yeah, it's like, I was like shaking. And we had a first down meeting and I was like trembling in my voice. I was like trying to get people to introduce themselves.

Starting point is 00:53:43 And I was like, Do people want to do stuff now? Do people like this? Like I just, no frame of reference. I was just like scared and trying to do things. Going back to some of the things we were talking about at the very beginning of this is like, it seems to be that metacartel was definitely a balance of work and play, right?

Starting point is 00:54:03 Like it had this goofy logo, had this kind of funny name. There wasn't really a shared vision or shared direction that was very well defined yet, but the vibes were very strong. It sounded like. One thing that Meta Cartel had going for it was like really, really good vibes. And then we enter like the whole Moloch Dow phase where, you know, Amin kind of pioneered the whole like making Dow's cool again. And then Meta, Meta Cartel was probably just like right behind the whole Dow movement.

Starting point is 00:54:38 It's like, well, whatever. We still don't know what our organization. is going to be about, but we can at least formalize it into a DAO and kind of go from there. Would you say you were like the lead community organizer or lead community manager of medical hotel at the time? I was the I was the lead slave of medical hotel. The drummer. I did.

Starting point is 00:55:02 Yeah, I did everything and anything the community wanted me to do. I was operating at its wish. I was enforcer, right? Like, you know, and to be honest, like now I haven't like thought too much about that time period when like just trying to formalize what is medical tall and, you know, what it is like as a Dow, right? I was holy God, pretty shitless scared.

Starting point is 00:55:31 I was like literally did not know what I was doing. I was like, hope this, like, people don't get pissed that I'm like wasting the time. I'm like, and when people committed, I'm like, I'm just like, make sure you commit the EF, right? Like, and the onboarding instruction, like, like, it was basically, I don't know, like, it wasn't, it was through EF scan. Yeah, we got everyone to onboard for EFAS scan, you know, for the contract interface that. Yeah. And we're like, trust me, like, this is legit.

Starting point is 00:56:03 Like this, it was like a instructions in the notion duck. And I just like made at CRM, being like, like, just paying everyone to like onboard. And I was like just a lot of times scared. I was like, you know, like people who had committed like 100 eaves and like they were very important commitments. And I was just trying to make sure that like they came for a right. But then we got off and running and I think, yeah, a lot of those people I knew, a lot of people reaching out like that wanted to join. And it was a mix of like people that just I think were ready to experiment like in hindsight. It was like a very forward thinking like everyone.

Starting point is 00:56:39 who are sort of pledges of Medi-Hartal-Dow at the start are like doing fascinating things now today. Just like, it was like really like people who wanted to build Dow's an experiment and they were the first people who took the leap of faith. I felt like with Mollock, it was a lot of Eif Wales, but

Starting point is 00:56:55 these people with Metacatl, like we raised a minimum pledge amount to you know, 10 from 100. So it was like a lot more like ordinary people, builders and like less if whales and you know that I'm like, I'm like ever like so thankful to anyone who even pledge anything to that down like back

Starting point is 00:57:15 then because without their leaps of faiths like it would not be like we would never have done the experiment like it was literally people like you know, you know, just people from the community to being like look here's a hundred each like you like your like here's experiment, you know, like and I'm like thank you sir. Like, you know, like, I just, it was, I really couldn't help them back, you know. And I think that's what I really touched about the culture. Like, let's just do it. Like, you know.

Starting point is 00:57:49 And yeah, so, and so very so, like, eternally thankful to like everyone who like pledged back then. They're just like, or even retweeted or even supported the thing. Like, you know, yeah. So why did you get? a fuck so much. Like if it was, if the direction of MetaCartel was undefined and like the vision was unrealized and the direction, like no one really knew what you were doing and you didn't even know where Meta Cartel was going. Why did you put so much energy into it? Why did you commit so

Starting point is 00:58:19 hard? Yeah. So in early 2019, I mean, yeah, I was like trying to like, I gave myself some leeway of like, okay, let's spend a couple months trying to figure out medical stuff. We'll commit a year. But to be honest, two, three months into the year when I was trying to failing to get the DAP incubated stuff off the ground, I started looking for jobs again. I was like applying to places for PM roles. Yeah, yeah, like crypto jobs. It was like comms roles, community management roles, like ops roles, anything non-technical. No one would hide me.

Starting point is 00:58:51 Like no one would like pick up like response to my like application seat. Like no one would. And I was like, I'm so fucked. I'm like, oh my God. Like, I'm like getting pretty broke. Like this is, you know, like not good. Like, and I think like the medical stuff thing was like when I was rejected in this prospect of like building it down.

Starting point is 00:59:16 It was like, you know, like there was the decision of like go find a continue finding a job or like go continue wandering in the desert. And like just like be excited. this possibility that I might just get fully lost and not come back out alive or well. And I think to do anything really out there and creative, you just, you have to accept and the fate, this potential fate that you might just get really lost and it might not be a good outcome, right? So I just like, I was like, fuck it.

Starting point is 00:59:48 You know, this is, there's a chance that like doing the first focal malloc was going to be a really big and interesting extreme. This is potentially a chance to like make a mark, right? like, you know, in the space. And yeah, I just went, went into it. And I think that's when actually, like, Binance tech from Binance X, they were doing fellowships. They had plenty of money back then.

Starting point is 01:00:09 So I guess they were just funding, like, cool projects in the space of $15,000, $5,000 a month. So it's like a free month thing. And that came in super clutch. Yeah. Like, I would have that just, like, funded, like, you know, I got to Berlin. It was super cheap, lots of cababs. you know, I split the payment, the $15,000 payment, $5,000 payment every month, two free

Starting point is 01:00:33 ways, some to peeve, some to Alex Hoffman, who was working in the Dow back then, some to myself. And just like, that was super clutch. And then once we had money in the Dow, I was like, okay, like I was just sort of every now and then, like begging for some money. You know, like, hey, can I have like a couple thousand, like $2,000, $3,000, $3,000, here and that, like, literally like every two, three, three months. This wasn't like a weekly thing. It was like, three months later, I was like, I had no money.

Starting point is 01:01:02 Please, I need to go to DefCon. $5,000. And yeah, people were like, yeah, of course. But to me, I was like just privileged to like, walk a thing. And yeah, and, you know, surprisingly, we had, we got somewhere, I guess. And I think a lot of the, we didn't know what we were doing. It was just like funding different things. Like we funded kickback.

Starting point is 01:01:27 we funded like Dow ideas, right? And I think that's when we started going from just DAPs to like thinking more about DOWs of like, okay, we have grant DAO, but what about DOS for parties that sponsor events? What about DOWs that are like, that a project, how do you turn a project into a Dow? How do we, can we take a create a Devshop down, right?

Starting point is 01:01:47 What about an investment Dow? Like an upgraded version of the grants down that could actually value capture, right? And that's where I think a lot of MetaCardt's all ideas where like, you know, formed there. It was like really discovered. And also question, like, what is the future we want to build here? Like, why are we so interested in Dows?

Starting point is 01:02:02 And I think in the latter part of 2019, especially when we had an offsite, we called MConn Zero, right? Which was like 15 of us just like coming to Denver for an offsite after, you know, after Osaka DevCon. We like came together to talk about like, what are the values of medical or what the visions that we wanted to build, like, in Web Free. And what are we going to stand for? Like what is, what are we going to walk on?

Starting point is 01:02:29 And, you know, and that was a very pivotal sort of like moment, sort of time period for MetaCouple. When did you go into that conversation with your own answers as in what you wanted to see MediCartel turn into? Absolutely none. Yeah. You were there to listen. We, yeah, I was the guy.

Starting point is 01:02:48 I was like, let's do it. Let's hang on Denver and like, oh, people are like, yeah, let's do it. And I was just, I was like, I was like, mind-blown that we could get like 15 brilliant people from the internet to meet RRL in Denver. It's just like that was mind-blowing itself. Like, let alone in M-Con, the recent M-Con one, like, where like got several hundred people to come together, right? And I think like there was a moment in like the our brain something sessions and our Airbnb were like, what, like, what do we, what is our vision? And just like super quiet.

Starting point is 01:03:21 Like no one. And then I think I just like started ranting it, like without any, thought in my mind, like, everything's going to be a game. Like, you know, and then people, I'm like, yeah, like, you know, this is like the shared economic layer for, like, that will turn everything into a game. Like, you know, you can, like, schools will be game, like, work will be gamified, right? Like, you know, you're working Dow's. Like, everything will be, we just like started ranting, like, you're being absurd about the future with what we knew about Dow's, right?

Starting point is 01:03:51 And we wrote it all down and so this thing called the Web Free Manifesto. And that's, we should have probably used that as investment pieces in hindsight as well. You know, we shouldn't have just like wrote it down and did do not too much with it. But and then we wrote down our valley, that was a bit more, you know, there was more clarity there. I think we could put it down. But that was a very spontaneous moment in the middle of that room where we just like sort of like, like, yeah, like really express like where we thought the future was going. And that was like a strong driving force of like, we want to build this like, well,

Starting point is 01:04:27 that was more equitable, richer, you know, fairer, right? And a place that could benefit more and more, right? And create more and increase less scarcity. You know, so like, and yeah, I think that's one of the uniting factors, I think, of medical health. It's not only our values and like what we care about, but also like we all generally, I think, are like builders. Like we were like either like not like coders or like product people like you know traditionally it's like everyone who's there is like here to build the future and like of like what we're free is and like to explore the frontier right and none of us there were like really I think like we're like in it for the tech basically right um that's one way to describe it how do you speak about um the the values in this conversation where you just started ranting and other people are there

Starting point is 01:05:22 And everyone was sitting in a circle all trying to come to terms with how they didn't have an identity about what this thing was. But everyone realized that they needed one and no one knew what the answer was. How or why did this whole growing the pie attitude or sustainable wealth approach and creating wealth and sharing it? That's for something I find very, very deep with. And one of the reasons why I'm attracted to, the whole metacartel cohort of individuals is like, they know that the cool thing about Web3 and Ethereum is that we have found ways to generate wealth sustainably. And we get to the, and the more we actually share it, the more we actually get to generate. That took me, like, I only kind of discovered that mental model like very, very recently.

Starting point is 01:06:16 Some of the metacartel people have been talking about this since day one. Can you just talk about how that sort of vision and ethos arose? Who, like, who voice these opinions, the loudest? What did they say? How did it come about? I think that this was from the very, very start of, like, medical household from the working group days. Like, it just made sense that, like, why are we, like, talking about, like,

Starting point is 01:06:41 meta-transactions in isolated pockets? Let's come together. Like, what much more powerful, smarter, you know, we can get much more done by collaborating. and there was just like this collaborative energy, I think from the very, very, very start. We took that energy to events, like to create events, to,

Starting point is 01:07:01 we took that energy into everything we did. And I think that really was the driving forces. And then I think like somewhere early along the lines, I knew this African proverb called like, if you want to go far, to go alone, if you want to go far, go together.

Starting point is 01:07:14 And I just like slapped it somewhere. And everyone's like, yeah, that's like, that's our thing. So that and then so I think that was like this random sort of meme that clicked as well, you know. And I think this is where like everyone really carries it like really has ownership over this. Everyone truly believes it in the bottom of the heart that this is like the best way to actually conduct ourselves in Webpre to walk with each other.

Starting point is 01:07:39 Right. Like we have medical hotels like a community of different DOWs and different people. Like we don't have a single Dowel anymore. Right. So there's just initiatives of medical trials. And despite that, we all try to support one another's initiatives. We try to, we are like the social fabric that collaborates with events. And, you know, the reason I think we still stick together is because, like,

Starting point is 01:08:00 everyone who's, like, drawn to it, I generally, like, feel that, like, we can benefit one another by, like, actually operating in a very positive some manner. And just, like, people curation, I think, was a big focus throughout all of medical tool, too, just making sure you had very well-natured individuals who, are more who are givers than takers, right? And we look for other givers and spaces and brought them in. And I think that is like sort of the key, key, right? Like, you know, and yeah, we've had to remove a few bad apples over the years, only a few, to be honest, but yeah, like I think there's a huge focus in curation and there was this energy at the start as well.

Starting point is 01:08:48 When, if ever, did the conversation about economic sustainability come about? Was ever a moment it was like, hey, guys, like, it's really cool that we give away money, but like you can only give away money for so long until you run out of money, right? Did the conversation of like, how do we make MetaCartel economically sustainable ever come about? Yeah, we did throughout the whole time. But I think it was only that, it only got, became more of a talking point. And I think like I really started to burn out in like early 2020, just completely burnout. I think like barely just got benched out up and running then.

Starting point is 01:09:30 And massive burnout. Just like lost all motivation. Like one or two. I was like instantly when I burnt out like secluded myself from all social media or communication just like two weeks. And I think like I just like realize what I was doing like working like literally insane hours. It's like, like, it would be, I didn't even count the house. It's like, this is the only thing I did every day.

Starting point is 01:09:52 And I had one day off and I would just be a vegetable for that day. And I think like that creative energy that you sort of like have, the type, the energy that, you know, makes you go wander in a desert aimlessly in search of me, you know, such of something interesting to build, right? That does have a short fuse on it. Like, and, you know, if you can't operate in that mode, which I was operating for the last two years then, you know, very, you know, in a sustainable fashion. And I think that's when we started thinking, that's when we started formalizing roles, paid roles. But by then it was sort of like, okay, like I'm like totally like burnt out.

Starting point is 01:10:28 I just need space and time. Right. In hindsight, now that you are where you are, have you gotten more financial capital by working for or with meta cartel or social capital? That was a thing. I realized when I burnt out that like, Social capital doesn't put food on the table. Doesn't pay for flight.

Starting point is 01:10:50 Doesn't pay for, you know, you can't fund other people with social. Like, you can't. I also saw other starving teams and projects that were doing amazing things. And I just was totally helpless almost in helping them. And I just felt like terrible. I was like, I literally can't help you. I can reach, you know, I can tweet about you, but, you know, I can't actually like put food on the table for you. And I think that was like a very, and that experiencing that myself made me realize like,

Starting point is 01:11:21 oh, wow, like it, you know, I think I went from very idealistic. Like this is, let's just experiment to like, oh, wow, like, if we're sort of powerless of any resources and we're not being sustainable and not generating more resources, accumulating more as a community, right? We can't, we don't, we're sort of powerless, right? And if we care about others and we want to help others, when you have this like, responsibility to make sure we are sustainable and that we are actually do like you know uh grow resources and grow leverage grow ability to help people and um like like resources wealth uh governance power

Starting point is 01:12:02 influence social capital all of this i feel like it's totally meaningless unless you're able you're able and willing to use that to like benefit others and like why else would you like you know like, yeah, that's sort of the mind shift shift I sort of made. Yeah, and that's sort of what I think medical council turned from like a research house more into like how do we like make sure we make sure like the projects of everyone and medical self succeeds. How do we make sure the people individually succeed both, you know, like from the personal, you know, satisfaction, the personal lives to like the, you know, financial to the create like

Starting point is 01:12:43 whatever they wanted to achieve. right like that it became more of that of a focus and I think that's sort of been stemming on ever since last year and we're yet to maybe we're yet to like reestablish what metacartel is about but it's been a lot more of that uh in the last year or so than just let's experiment for the sake of experimenting let's you know let's just give out grants and do things about thinking up a long term is that where medicartel finds itself today is in search of economic sustainability would say that really falls into individuals of its members, but I would distill medical hotel like today to the most trust what, like I would say, at least trust for my opinion,

Starting point is 01:13:25 like I'm trying to make it the most trusted, most goodwill, good-natured list of, like curated list of people in all of crypto, right? Like, that's a highly curated list. And that's like what it is. It's like, you know that if you're in presence of medical, so you're in good company, like, you know, amongst people who, who play shitty games. You know, you're going to have a certain level of trust, like automatically the moods lighter. You're more able to express yourselves and, you know,

Starting point is 01:13:53 let your guard down a tiny bit because you know, you're amongst people who are who show your values, but also you're amongst people who are willing to, like, protect those values as well, right? And enforce it and to also, like, curate for those values, right? And I think that's what we're trying to really consolidate medicals all around, you know.

Starting point is 01:14:17 So does that mean that Meta cartel is more of a social doubt? Like maybe a I would say so. Yeah. It's just a curated list of good people. Yeah. And I think the love of curation is not just like you buy, I think,

Starting point is 01:14:31 who knows if we're ever going to have a liquid turd, but like right now as of the thinking, it's like we want to have like the best curation, like the most anal, most like backbreaking love of curation. as humanly possible. Like, yeah, like multi-human factorial vibe-checking and not just like we like this process. It's like we've worked into sports

Starting point is 01:14:54 and we've interacted over a long period of time. They've shown how they make decisions. They vibe well. Like they get involved. They lean in like this level of like curation and just making sure that like we endorse and we like help the people that are truly these gems that care about the same things we do succeed

Starting point is 01:15:10 in any way, shape, or form, right? the collective leverage that we have. Right. So when Medicare tells like culture and vision and ethos vibe, if you will, is like, you must be a good person, a provably good person, and then also be able to use that goodness for others and have an interest in doing that. When we, like, it's very easy to have a positive son, some nature when like everyone is inside of this group with a positive some nature, helping other people.

Starting point is 01:15:42 with positive some natures, helping other people with positive some natures. And so it's a great way for positive some natures to rise to the top, right? Like you can actually bootstrap, but historically, people always say like, you know, nice guys finish last, right? Like if you're, if you work for others, then others will just take advantage of you and extract that. But if you can actually put up borders around the good people, say like, all the good people go in here and you find yourself with, you won't actually find anyone in Metacartel that's extract only because by definition, it's a curated people of list, a curated list of people that if you give something to them, they give something more back to you and then you give something more back to someone else.

Starting point is 01:16:26 Yeah, we celebrate like those that give selflessly. Like it's like we make sure we consciously like chant like, you know, really acknowledge and like, you know, highlight that. And I guess it's like Metacartels version of a good person. You know, like, are Metacartal good people up to your core? You might think we're a bunch of assholes. And that is totally fine. That is okay.

Starting point is 01:16:50 But we're like a guild. We're a fraction in this space. And we're of a certain flavor. And those that are sort of amongst a core or potentially very well vetted or just endorsed, right, in some way you should form. You know, we'll probably walk on something more formalized. But for now, it's a bit more like, you know, amorphous. and, you know, sort of, I guess, like, Pia vouched.

Starting point is 01:17:12 But we want to make sure that, like, you know, yeah, there's this sort of protection. And not only in protection, but like this platform to empower those, right? Like, they give the most. And it's like a social doubt, like in many sense now, yeah. This might be, I have a very trusting nature. And in the past, it's definitely like cost me. I've trusted people that I should not have trusted. before crypto.

Starting point is 01:17:38 And the last few days in Colorado at M-Con, a bunch of all the M-Con people, the manufacturer people went out to, where was it? Was it Breckenridge somewhere in Colorado? Yeah, in somewhere. So late. No lake, actually, but.

Starting point is 01:17:58 Well, maybe we'll tell that story. Anyways, like a group of people, they rented out like six houses. so we could all go hang out with each other in the middle of the Colorado Mountainside. And almost everyone brought their backpacks with their laptop and also ledger in it. And everyone just like tossed down their backpacks into a little like, here, I put your backpacks over there, like dump it over there. And then everyone just like started walking around the hills of Colorado in varying states of sobriety.

Starting point is 01:18:27 Yeah. Yeah. No one like everyone knew that everyone else's ledgers and laptops were like right next to each other. And no one gave a flying. Like, like, no one cared at all. That's, that's, that's the first time it's ever come across my mind that, like, people's ledgers and laptops were all bunched up next to the job in a room, those in the house, houses that were totally unattended.

Starting point is 01:18:51 And you couldn't know 50% of the people there. Like, I had, like, I did not know. Oh, yeah, like, I'm not actually in, like, metacartel. And so, like, there's a bunch of strangers. You're in the circles now. You're pretty, you're pretty, like, you're pretty, like, you're pretty, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like, I actually feel like you don't need to be, like, part of any specific doubt to be a Metacartal team member nowadays. It's sort of like you show up.

Starting point is 01:19:14 It's like you, you know, it's like you show up to the, I don't know, like the scouts or I don't know, you show up to the some gym a couple times and now you're regular. Right, right, right. So are there defined you are in Metacartel or you are not? Is there is there anything like actually defined there? I would say varying degrees, but we need to do a better job. That's why I think, you know, over the Christmas, over the end of this year, we're definitely going to, there's a clear intent to really work on defining those,

Starting point is 01:19:46 those boundaries. And we'll probably, what we'll do is just like initially, like, work on a list of five, six hundred people who are like, pieces of meta-caltile people to get added, you know, I'll fill out this type form. And this is the person that's a bouncer. you might gradually decentralize that. Like, you know, we might give everyone an NFT and say, like, you guys, every year, you guys vote on five people who are the gatekeepers and balances of this list.

Starting point is 01:20:16 Just, like, keep it super lightweight. Like, you don't need to have voting, like, you know, curation is done by the best curators. Like, you know, no everyone's the best curator of people. So, and I think most people get that. Like, a lot of the core PMedicons has been around for ages. Like, they've always, like, sort of had suspicers. had suspicions of like why why is it like many times like very militaristically like run like wait what like you know there's a lot of dictator memes even though a Dow and like but I think over

Starting point is 01:20:46 time they trust is the process that like you know you give someone you delegate someone power you trust that is literally a value medical consult trust like like back others right like place of trust in them right the hereful reason and you know you can withdraw the trust any time if you wanted to. So as long as that's that, you know, go for it. So we're going to probably formalize that some way, shape, perform and maybe like, you know, just something like democracy, you know, revisited, but on change.

Starting point is 01:21:17 It's like five people are gatekeepers. To remove anyone from the list, three people need to vote, three out of five, multi-signers, I don't know, to add anyone two out of five. And just the goal is to not grow that list quickly, but painfully slowly, Like, yeah, very appropriately. Nounce members every three months.

Starting point is 01:21:38 This should be a process that lives, you know, in the background. It sounds like, yeah. It sounds like meta and I think, sorry, go ahead, go ahead. And I think the end goal is like, you know, and we just have this on-chained list of addresses where like you guys all get privacy access to like all these great things. Yeah. It sounds like Metacartel has actually never been wholly defrauded.

Starting point is 01:22:02 find, sounds like it's always been a little bit of it's just like a vibe, not a, not a constitution, vibes only. Do you think that like maybe that's actually the optimum, optimal path for Metacartel is to kind of only be a vibe and not ever have a constitution? It's a good question. If someone comes up of one and we all vibe, yeah, why not? But, you know, I think we've just, I feel like we've always just just done enough. Right. To like to like just created just enough social infrastructure for the group to be functional

Starting point is 01:22:44 and to go what it needs. And beyond that, it's, I think you get like diminishing level returns in terms of how much effort and thinking you put in. How much meaning do you describe to the meta cartel name? Like I know it was kind of created on a whim. Yeah. Meta cartel. Does that mean, name, mean anything?

Starting point is 01:23:10 Or at least to you? It's sort of, it's definitely a bit numb to me, I think, you know, because it's just like it's been everywhere. But I think the meaning of it is definitely of a like, it's like chaotic good at its best. It's like a chaotic good nature, like sort of energy, right? And that's the sense I get from it. And when I think about it, I think, when I think about a medical consult, I think about, like, the standards it's set in the past by, you know, the former members, the members in the past, the prior activities we've done. And it sort of makes me feel like, you know, we should continue. It's like, there's something to live up to, at least in the past, right?

Starting point is 01:23:53 So I, and like a lot of the work we did, I think, in 2019 and 18, it's like we could probably never replicate ever. again, we're in a totally different state of mind, like, just focus as well. And with the right people, right, growing together. And in that sense, you know, it's like a very rich, I feel like it's just this really rich journey and piece of history. We've all sort of been able to share, thankfully, you know, and different people keep joining it. I think that's something we want to faucets.

Starting point is 01:24:26 It's a journey that everyone adds on and on, you know, like some of the best, most active members, you know, are the new ones oftentimes. right? They bring the energy and their vibe. And I almost feel like, you know, when I'm like working with 1KX and working in other DAWs and helping other people form DAWs, like, medical stuff was like this element of like chaotic good. It's such a, it's also so amorphous. Like it's just sort of very undefying. It's been shifted in what it is over the years. I sort of use it as like almost this expression of community, this nature. It's like you study. You study. We study nature because it's not controlled.

Starting point is 01:25:05 It's erratic and it's emergent. Like we study how the forest grows, how lightning flashes across the sky. We look at the patterns and I feel like what MediCaltol was was this sort of phenomena, which I often reflect upon and try to learn from even years onwards, right? Where like how do you run a community? What went right? And I try to take pieces of that. When I was, you know, I'm like just in, samely tunnel division in.

Starting point is 01:25:33 you know, because I think you're in a different mode when you're like working on something 100 hours a week completely broken. You need to create something, you know, like you're with your back against the wall. And like I definitely not at that state level or in that state of mind anymore. And I'm trying to like, it's like a fossil which I'm trying to learn from, right? Right. The, it kind of feels like MetaCartel is like a meme in the sense that like, I remember I worked as a at an ICO advisory company in 2017.

Starting point is 01:26:05 That was my first crypto job. And like a number of the ICOs that came through the pipeline were like tokenized memes. It was so antithetical, right? Like we're going to take a meme and we're going to tokenize it. We're like, you actually can't tokenize a meme. A meme is something literally, if you try and capture it, it goes elsewhere. And I feel like that's why I asked maybe meta cartels better off with an undefined vision because if you try and define it, well, whatever Metacartel is will actually just route around

Starting point is 01:26:35 the definition and it'll turn into something else. Like, great, we made, we formally instantiated Metacartel. Well, fuck it. Let's spin up into a different telegram and like talking that one instead. I feel like if you try and capture it, the energy will actually just go elsewhere. This is a very profound point, actually. It's an amazing point. Yeah, because like whatever we do, well, like, I think we're going to close.

Starting point is 01:27:00 call it the meta something or Metacartles thing, not the Metacartel, right? That's a meme that will, like, we've maybe like instantiated, maybe some of the values and the visions that will, like, be there. But it's like, it's like hidden. It's like there's been in, it's been so many blocks now that like it's just buried in the history of the theorem and like fossilized by all the hashes, right? And we can do nothing now, but to look back and learn at what those transactions been. and then try to interpret those, right?

Starting point is 01:27:32 And what will happen onwards is other blocks we sort of do make, right? Yeah. My vision of meta cartel, what the name actually means. Well, first you have meta and crypto people love being meta, right? Like we like zooming out. Crypto, in my opinion, crypto people are kind of tapped in to how the universe works, almost better than anyone else, any other cohort of individuals in the world. world in the universe. Like, crypto people, they, they connect weird dots and then they get it right, right?

Starting point is 01:28:06 And so they understand the world, they understand the universe at a meta level, right? And then the cartel aspect is like, a cartel is like the first early formations of a government, right? Like, what do you get about of a cartel? Cartel comes knocking on the door and says, like, hey, we want to offer you guys protection. And then the people answer responded, like, protection from what? It was like, Oh, anything bad from happening, including us, if you don't pay us. That's what a government is, right? Like, government's like, hey, like, you got to pay your taxes. And if you don't, we'll throw you in jail.

Starting point is 01:28:38 Like, that's just one's legitimate. One's brand new. So, like, we have this nebulous group of people, which as we've discussed, are a group of people with shared vibes, shared values, grow a positive some nature with a commitment to help that positive some nature be bestowed upon other people, also in the, the metacartel. And so while we were walking around the hills of Colorado, I very much felt like if Ethereum and if the values, Ryan said something on the weekly roll-up last week that stuck with

Starting point is 01:29:12 me. And when it was, when you adopt crypto protocols, you adopt crypto values. And so the idea is that like when you take in it, when you use Ethereum and we become a part of Dow's and you adopt NFTs, you start to adopt the values that are embedded into these systems. And so that are embedded it into these systems, the values of decentralization, the values of everyone is equal, everyone is an admin. And so going back to Meta Cartel, we have this group that is very, very meta, that understands the world at a very deep level and self-selects for people that with a positive some nature, that hopefully in my mind, it actually is the new, like, society, the new culture, the new genesis of the new culture, right? Because we want to completely rip out the old

Starting point is 01:29:58 financial system, inject it with this new financial system. And then as a result of that, really what we're trying to do is we're not just trying to get people to adopt new technologies. We're trying to get people to adopt new values. And so for me, Metacartel is like the new social layer zero, right? The new layer zero for not just like crypto, but for the whole rest of the world. And if MediCartel can keep on self-selecting for the people that carry the vibe and add energy to the vibe, hopefully Meta-Cartel blankets the whole entire world with its values, with its vibe, right?

Starting point is 01:30:32 And maybe it's way too ambitious to assume that every single person's a theorem address will be part of the Meta-Cartel. But I do think that more sneakily will Madi-Cartel come to envelop the whole entire world by blanketing the whole entire world with its values. Wow, that's a profound vision. Yeah, I guess it's,

Starting point is 01:30:54 weird to see someone else talking about Metacottoe like that because Metacos has just been this like tragic like hiccups, a series of hiccups and you know, misadventures and like somehow we're like stumbling forwards and then like

Starting point is 01:31:09 now we're here and it's been you know maybe three years since Metacotov's been around like who knows what we'll be in like seven years and Minicotel's like 10 years old right but I feel

Starting point is 01:31:24 think that's like I guess one yeah and I guess like who do you want your neighbors to be in crypto right um like how do you want them to be like right like um yeah um so you know I and I think like we'll keep doing what we'll keep doing and you know I think this has this insane focus and like you know championing and cherishing and appreciating great people you know people who give and play positive some games. And hopefully, yeah, it leaves the space one person better, I guess. Peter, who are your heroes in the space?

Starting point is 01:32:08 Oh, man. Who are your great people? This is super hard. I think definitely, like, I mean, Soleimani. Like, he's amazing mental, like, of me, help me so many ways from, like, letting me a couch to, like, such a bedroom to sleep in his, in Spank House back in 2019, like, flat broke.

Starting point is 01:32:32 I think he's definitely one, I think, you know, and I think there's many others, like, you know, like the Odyssey crew, like, you know, Yale, like James Young, all these other people, like, that I'm not mentioning just like the early medical tall folks that are like, sort of really like shaped how I think. Yeah. Awesome, Peter. This is a fantastic conversation. Is there any anything, any part of this story that I haven't gone down yet?

Starting point is 01:33:07 No, I think this is amazing. Yeah, like I think we really went through everything, all things medical history. Right. And we talked to really, we really went into what it was really about. And I think hopefully those who are listening, get a better sense of what we are beneath the events, beneath the memes, beneath the surface layer events you might come across. The reason why we are the way we are, like, you know, why we might even be fairly selective and exclusive in the way we operate in many ways. And so, yeah.

Starting point is 01:33:42 What's the biggest lesson you've learned in crypto that you think would be relevant for for listeners to hear. I think Mediota would have never, I think, like, been this so important to me if I didn't,

Starting point is 01:33:56 like, take a leap of faith and just like, fuck it. And, you know, like, just the,

Starting point is 01:34:03 like, I think, like, to be willing to just wonder and be lost, like, like, worth something that I felt

Starting point is 01:34:10 was important, right? So I feel like, you know, if you feel like something's super important, you don't know where it will take you, but you believe it's an important cause and mission. and I would say, yeah, like, and there's this huge, ominous sense of unknown.

Starting point is 01:34:24 Like, go for it. Like, this is, like, back to yourself and something interesting will happen. When you use the wandering in the desert metaphor, like you're out there, broke, wandering in the desert, trying to find something. Did you actually find something? Or did you actually just make a settlement yourself out of this piece of the desert? And then that settlement actually ended up working out, which you think? is more accurate.

Starting point is 01:34:50 I think, I don't know. Yeah. It's more like, you know, I made enough noise to attract a village and then that village

Starting point is 01:35:04 now sustains wham in many ways, right? Like, it's like, it's funny because I'm like almost the delinquent

Starting point is 01:35:16 of the village or city that is met a console and I'm taking care of me now. Like, it's like, you know, I'm like, I'm lost,

Starting point is 01:35:23 I need a call. you know, back to from the mountains to Denver. I'm like, please, please help. Like, you know, like, you know, yeah. Someone please, you know, help do this thing. Or we need a venue, like these brilliant people stepping up. And, yeah, so like just privileged, I guess. Peter, thank you for coming on Layer Zero.

Starting point is 01:35:46 This has been a fantastic conversation. I really appreciate, David. Cheers. Hey, we hope you enjoyed the video. If you did, head over to Bankless HQ right now to develop your crypto investing skills and learn how to free yourself from banks and gain your financial independence. We recommend joining our daily newsletter, podcast, and community as a bankless premium subscriber to get the most out of your bankless experience.

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Bankless - Pet3r Pan | Layer Zero

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