Bankless - Phantom Wallet on Ethereum!

Episode Date: December 8, 2022

The Phantom Wallet is coming to Ethereum! Adding diversity and a smooth user experience to the DeFi wallet landscape, CEO Brandon Millman and CTO Francesco Agosti join us to discuss the migration to Ethereum, expansion into Polygon, the team's design philosophy, and the future of Phantom. ------  OPOLIS | Sign Up to Get 1000 $WORK and 1000 $BANK https://bankless.cc/Opolis  ------  SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER:          https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/?utm_source=banklessshowsyt  ️ SUBSCRIBE TO PODCAST:                 http://podcast.banklesshq.com/  ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS:  ️ ARBITRUM | SCALING ETHEREUM https://bankless.cc/Arbitrum   ACROSS | BRIDGE TO LAYER 2 https://bankless.cc/Across   BRAVE | THE BROWSER NATIVE WALLET https://bankless.cc/Brave   NEXO | CRYPTO FINANCIAL HUB https://bankless.cc/Nexo   LEDGER | NANO HARDWARE WALLETS https://bankless.cc/Ledger  ️FUEL | THE MODULAR EXECUTION LAYER https://bankless.cc/Fuelpod  ------ Resources: Phantom https://twitter.com/phantom/status/1597597365774749697  Brandon Millman https://twitter.com/bchillman  Francesco Agosti https://twitter.com/fragosti  ----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/bankless-disclosures 

Phantom, which is a crypto wallet, is kind of similar to MetaMass, kind of in browser, and it's been previously on the Solana wallet, and now it is going to be deployed to Ethereum. And I wanted to see it for myself, because I have not had any experience, actually, with Phantom to date. Does that, that will displease the soul maxis. Yeah, that we're about to get roasted. I will also be joining you in that this will be the first time I've seen the Phantom wallet. But from everyone that I know in the crypto world, who goes across all the chains, much more than you and I have the time for, they say that their favorite thing about Solana is the Phantom wallet. So now Phantom, they've announced that they're coming to the Ethereum layer one and also Polygon.

And so the joy that is Phantom Wall is about to be able to be experienced by the Ethereum side of things. So, Ryan, I'm happy to have you join me on one of the Alpha League episodes. Yeah, am I doing it right? Is this going okay so far? That's great. I'm super excited, honestly, and this is more than just a conversation. I think we're going to actually see some live demos here of what's going on, what Phantom is about to release.

Guys, before we get into it, I want to tell you about another tool that is essential for your bankless journey. That tool is called Opelis. David, tell about Opelis. Opelis, yeah, so there's a bunch of things that we like to do in the World of Web 3. We like to work for a Dow, or perhaps we like to be an NFT artist, things that are confusing to typical nation-state employment. structures. Do you, how do you manage payroll? How do you manage health care? How do you manage

your taxes when you are working on the frontier in ways that the nation state doesn't understand? Well, OPLIS is here to help you do what you do best, which is continued to be working on the frontier of Web 3, while also being compliant with taxes and also getting health care. OPLUS is a co-op. And so everyone who is a part of the OPLUS ecosystem, they all come together. and then Opolis negotiates for better and better health care rates and services because of how many people that they have in the Opelis co-op. They are able to negotiate health care services for their co-op members, also because it's a co-op. If you sign up for Opelis, you also become an owner of Opelis. Sounds pretty damn Web3 to me.

And so if you join soon by the end of this month, by December 31st, you get a thousand work tokens, which is the token of the Opelis co-op, and a thousand bank tokens as well. There is a link in the show notes for you to get started. So you can continue pioneering out the frontier with healthcare because the frontier is dangerous. That is important. Of course, independent contractors and crypto, you absolutely need to check this out. All right, David, do we want to say anything more about Phantom? So actually, I don't know the details in terms of when they're deploying.

So I'm hoping to ask that from the fandom guys. I'm also hopeful to see kind of a demo of what this looks like. ideally the demo that's kind of multi-chains, they're showing us like Ethereum and Maddic. What else should viewers pay attention to today? Yeah, I think that, well, first off, the Ethereum ecosystem could definitely use some competition in the wallet space. Manamask definitely dominates. Rainbow is definitely growing in market share, but more wallets competing with other wallets is

always great. And sounds like Phantom is entering the ring of competition in the Ethereum ecosystem, which, you know, competition is great for the consumer. I'm also, I also want to ask about, because like on the Metamath side of things, there's always like the infura back end. It's not, it is controversial, even though it shouldn't be. But we will ask about that. Like how does transactions get broadcasted? What is the back end of the Solana wallet as well?

How bankless is it? How bankless is it? How bankless is it? Exactly. Yeah. But I think those are the big angles to pay attention to. Well, guys, we'll be right back with Brandon and Francesco from, Francesco from Phantom. But before we do, we want to do.

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Earnify will tell you if you have any unclaimed airdrops that you can get. And it also does POAPs and mintable NFTs. Any kind of money that your wallet can claim, Earnify, will tell you about it. And you should probably do it now because some air drops expire. And if you sign up for Earnify, they'll email you anytime one of your wallets has a new irdrop for it to make sure that you never lose anirdrop ever again. You can also upgrade to Earnify premium to unlock access to air drops that are beyond the basics and are able to set reminders for more wallets.

And for just under $21 a month, it probably pays for itself with just one. AirDrop. So plug in your wallets at Earnify and see what you get. That's E-A-R-N-I. All right, guys, we are here with the Phantom team to talk about Ethereum's newest wallet. I'm expecting big things from this, guys. No pressure, but I've heard so much about Phantom. I want to kind of see this. We've got Brandon, who's the CEO and co-founder and Francesco, who is the CTO and co-founder. Guys, welcome to bankless. Thanks, guys. Appreciate it. Okay, so I would say welcome to Ethereum, but you guys are like, you've been on Ethereum,

before and you've been building on Ethereum previous to Phantom, can you tell us about that? And let me be maybe one of the first to say, welcome back to Ethereum, if no one's ever said that on a podcast with you. It's great to have Phantom entering the ecosystem. We're very excited. But can you tell us about your stories in crypto how you started Phantom?

Awesome. Yeah, first of all, thanks so much for having us on the show. Super exciting to kind of give everyone a preview of, of what's to come from our side and what to expect. And yeah, a long time, long time listener. So pretty surreal to be on here. So appreciate it. Cheers.

Cool. Yeah. Well, I can kind of get started. Just talk a little bit about, you know, how we got started, how we ended up where we are. Do that. Because you guys have some experience like before Phantom. Take us to the before Phantom days and then the story of Phantom. Totally.

So Francesco, myself. And Chris, who's the third co-founder, we all got our start in crypto around 2017. So if you remember, that's sort of the previous hype cycle, all about ICOs, white papers, sort of Ethereum's come up. And we all got our start at a crypto startup called ZeroX, which is a company that develops decentralized exchange technology, sort of in the Ethereum defy space. And we kind of got our start actually before Defi was even coined as a term. Zero X was a 2017 darling.

Yeah, I remember. Yeah. Yeah, good times. Didn't Lake coined the term or someone at ZeroX was involved in coining the term, Defi? Yeah, there was like a bit of a story there. There was sort of a like a telegram group where Defi was originally coined. And we had a couple of coworkers in that group.

But yeah, anyway, so that's kind of how it. we got started. And yeah, that was a really different time. It was basically the whole defy web three space was really emerging from this sort of primordial goop of the permission on this blockchain. And everyone was just sort of like, you know, working in their lanes trying to figure things out. And so the area that we were, you know, very fortunate to be able to work on was this

decentralized exchange area. And from basically the course of 2017 and 2021, so about four years, we were, you know, doubling down on decentralized exchange and had the, you know, great opportunity to work on a number of pretty widely used DAPs in the Ethereum space. So one of them is called Macha.xyZ, which is a Dex aggregator that you may have used or some of the listeners may have used. But basically, it's a DAP that helps a user get the best price possible for a swap by sort of scanning all the different types of decentralized exchanges out there. And we also worked on sort of the backend technology for that called Xerox API, which actually is used to power a number of swap experiences across the entire ecosystem. So that's kind of where we cut our teeth and where we really got to get some experience building data. apps at scale. And through that experience, we sort of were able to gain a couple of key insights. So the first insight that we gained was that the wallet is basically the bottleneck of growth

for the entire Web 3 ecosystem. So once you start building a DAP and you get to a certain size and you say, hey, let's really start, you know, being diligent about trying to grow the DAP, analyzing growth funnels and all of that, you end up realizing that every single funnel ends with sending someone over to Metamask. So whether that's on the sign-up flow, you ask someone to, you know, install a wallet, you kind of kick them out to Metamask and hope that they return. And then even on core flows, like even on the swaps, every single flow terminates in, you know, a Metamask pop up and sort of praying that, you know, the wallet is sort of holding up its end of the bargain and properly guiding the user towards those last steps.

And so, yeah, we realized that, you know, wallets were, I think, not necessarily innovating at the pace that we would like, working at the application layer. And we decided, hey, like, someone needs to kind of step up and push the competition here. And so that's kind of how we decided to go after phantom in the first place was through our experience working at zero X. Is there any part of the wallet ecosystem, the wallet flow or UX that you really identifies like, damn, damn, this is really broken.

I would like to fix this. This part is not being innovative on. Somebody should do this. Maybe we should do it. Was there any, any, what like parts of the wallet world, do you remember as like the thing that you really wanted to target? Yeah, totally. Well, yeah, like I mentioned before, so there's two main areas.

So there's one sort of like signing up for a DAAP sort of necessitates you going over to a wallet and installing it. So the whole onboarding piece to this day remains pretty hard for normal users. But that's definitely one area that we were looking at and wanting to innovate. And then the second is the actual transaction authorization. So when people are performing transactions and approving them, they usually do. don't know what they're doing. They see some information about call data or addresses or something like that, but vast majority people don't know what's going on. It's very confusing. And so that's another area that we were looking to innovate. Can I ask you a question that's been on the back of my mind?

We love that you guys are in Ethereum. What took you guys so long to get here? And so like, You know, is it, you started in the Salana, and many of our Salana friends have always been very excited about the Phantom for Solana. There's clearly a desire from the Ethereum community. Why now? Can you talk about some of the decisions behind that? Yeah. Well, kind of going back to my initial intro, so we kind of had two main insights, actually, that guided us towards building Phantom. One was this idea that, hey, working on the wallet is probably the highest leverage place that we can be to actually help grow the entire Web3 ecosystem.

The second insight is that the world is moving towards a more multi-chain future. And actually for me personally, the first time that that really kind of came to fruition for me was observing the rise of finance smart chain in 2020. And before Bynast Smart Chain, it was pretty much unthinkable by anyone, the Ethereum community, that as a user or developer, you would use anything other than Ethereum. But Binance Smart Chain really challenged that notion and really showed that, one, there was an appetite for faster and cheaper blockchains, but especially if you couple that with the distribution of a giant like finance, you can actually really kind of shift the landscape. And so the second major insight that we had was that the world was moving towards a more multi-chain future.

And so that's sort of the provenance of Phantom is a multi-chain metamask competitor. So then that brings me to your question, you know, kind of what took us so long to come to ETH and what brought us down the path that we did? We decided that we saw firsthand that how dominant metamask was on Ethereum and understood that there are some very powerful network effects going on there and understood that it would be very difficult to compete head on with Metamask. So what we decided to do, especially because we believe that the future would be multi-chain, was to basically carefully pick an alternate L1 blockchain to start our journey on, use that blockchain to sort of carve out our home turf and then use the momentum, use that time on that blockchain to build momentum and sort of cut

our teeth with the product and then sort of propel ourselves over to the kind of next legs of our journey. But the problem with that was that we ended up exploding in, like Salonna ended up exploding in popularity and growth. And we basically had to just double down just to survive, basically and and ride the waves, so to speak. And so I think in an ideal world, we actually would have come home a lot sooner, so to speak. But yeah, we really had to basically double down to serve the community and all of the activity that was happening there. I think, by the way, partially because of Phantom, Salana saw such fantastic growth, like a very polished, a strong UX experience in the wallet side. helps with onboarding for sure.

It was always part of the roadmap. We actually even had, I think during our Solana beta, we had an EVM waitlist. So we were very optimistic about when we would be able to ship multi-chain. And then we just started gaining hundreds of thousands of users per week. And the biggest challenge that was like was spam basically. So we became a honeypot.

Our users became like a target. And we had to build all this spam infrastructure and trust and safety infrastructure that took us, you know, many months. So now we have an awesome support team. I think one of the best in the industry, honestly. I heard you guys call Metamask the support for Ethereum. We feel the very much the same way about phantom onslaanas. Like we are the support desk. So we built all that and we can get into this later, but we also, and Brandon touch on it a little bit, but we got in, we partnered, we actually incubated a company called Blowfish that builds this, it's sort of like a transaction firewall, transaction antivirus service.

So instead of having this, you know, don't trust, verify contract, which is what it is today on Metamask and other wall, is where you're expected. Sure, there's some information surface, but at the end, you as a user are expected to make the final call about whether to execute the transaction, whether it's safe or not. We try to take some of the responsibility there now and we'll actually tell you what we think about it. So if we see something suspicious with the transaction, we'll actually flag it. And we still let you click through and submit it so we're not like blocking anything. But we just try to inform you in the best way that we can about that. I think that is a super important part of what we did too. Yeah, and there's definitely like a philosophical choice here, right?

Metamask is very, it's built with a very intentional philosophy about like user first. It doesn't, it wants to be kind of like bare metal, bare minimum, and really just push all power and control to the user. But a lot of modern users are like, well, can you kind of take care of me though? Can you kind of like, you know, if you tell me that if can you tell me that this transaction I'm about to sign will drain my wallet, even if that is a, you know, a pop-up that perhaps is a political choice. There's a lot of philosophy there. So maybe that's something to keep in mind while we go through the wallet and see some of the features that like there's actually like, you know,

I know like Dan Finley is kind of a at Metamask. He's kind of a philosopher type and has very strong opinions about how wallet should get built. So maybe we can we can talk about that as we go through the wallet. But guys, uh, I'd love to see it because I'll totally admit I'm about to be embarrassed by the YouTube chat here. I actually personally have not seen the Phantom wallet. Can we whip out some images so I can kind of get my eyes on it? Well, we have a demo. Do you want images or a demo?

Demo. Demo. Wait, wait. What does the chat want, David? I'm sure the chat wants the demo. I'll speak for them because there's a lag time. So they're going to see this moment in about 10 minutes. Give them the demo no matter what.

Yeah. All right. What are we seeing here? During my screen. So, and Brendan, feel free to chime in here and whatever. What you're about to see is the Phantom Multi-Chane beta build. So this is not available to users yet. It'll be available next week or two.

So no one's seen this. No one has seen this. This is an Alpha League. He said it. Alpha Lee said it. Wow, these shows are great. I should join them more often, David. So if you want to sign out this, you can sign up at phantom.

com slash waitlist, by the way. Yeah, let's get started. So I'll use this bankless background. It's the way nicer. Agreed. Anything you want to say, Brandon, before I open? No, go for it. One challenge.

So is if as we're going, we should, you could say a few things because there's going to be some people that are actually listening to this in podcast form. I remind you, like YouTube, bank this comes on YouTube and also Spotify has a video version of this. But if you could, as you're going, Francesco, kind of just describe a little bit for people who don't have the visual in front of them. Sure. I guess one thing I'll add before we get started is that,

yeah, we're going through the browser extension version, but everything that you see here is also available as a mobile app on both iOS and Android as well. Right. Okay, so I'm just unlocking my phantom wallet. And bam, we're in. So the first thing you'll notice is that you see Ethereum, Solana, and Polygon all in one account. So that is how we're modeling multi-chain phantom. So there's this concept of quote unquote multi-chain accounts.

So instead of having to switch between a Solana account and Ethereum account or a polygon account, you sort of have these blended views, and we try to abstract the underlying chain as much as possible. So if you hover over the copy tool tip, you actually see all three addresses. And of course, the Ethereum and Polygon ones are the same, but we try not to make any assumptions

about what our users know. So it's tempting to have like an EVM row here or something, but I think as we add more chains, we'll be very explicit about what your address is on an ebm chain, even though it's like the same. So you'll never see like this eBM concept in here, really. You'll just see like Ethereum, Polygon and whatever, whatever other chain and support.

That's it for the home screen. Brandon, I'll let you try them in if you want to say something. Yeah, yeah, that's pretty much it. This is, this is the home screen. Like Francesco mentioned, yeah, we sort of, as a user, you have, you have an account. each account has a grouping of addresses, which may be a slightly different concept to someone who's familiar with Metamast

where they just sort of have one address per account. But this mental model is actually not so different from what you might expect from an experience on Coinbase, for example. And so what do you mean by an account? So I get like so, okay, let's say I have, let's say I have like five Ethereum addresses, public Ethereum addresses, and then I have like, you know, five other.

on Polygon. Those are the addresses. What's the account? Is the account the one thing that I have with Phantom? What's kind of the account level that you're aggregating? Yeah, the number can share around accounts is always interesting. So typically in a wallet, you'd call these addresses accounts. So I believe MetaMas calls them that as well.

Right. Yeah, yeah. So we're just calling them multi-chain accounts. So it's sort of this, as Brandon said, this grouping of addresses across all the chains. is one account in Phantom. So if you have five polygon addresses that you want to import, so that's going to be another important thing to say. Say you have a seed phrase with a bunch of eth addresses on it,

you'd be able to import those into Phantom, and you'd still have your five ether addresses be imported, and you'd be able to switch between them, but each of those accounts, each of those single-chain accounts will have been magically multi-chainified, and they will have corresponding Solana accounts as well. corresponding Salana accounts as well. That might be getting a little bit into the weeds, but

maybe we need to see more to see how this works. Yeah, yeah. Okay. One question I have for you on this interface here is like, all right, so we got some ether on Ethereum, we got some Solana, and we got some Maddoch on Polygon. But at Madic, I could actually send that to the Ethereum layer one. So if I had Madic on my Ethereum address, how would that be displayed here?

Yeah, so we, you know, we support all Polygon on Ethereum, E. EOC20s too. So all tokens show up here. Okay. And they're aggregated form, right? In an aggregated form. Oh, that's a great question actually. Right. How do I know what network they're on is the question?

But I don't happen to have any other tokens in this wallet except for spam tokens, which I will unhide just to show you this. Oh, cool. Oh, they're all on Solana, but this should be good enough. So like quality tokens. Yeah, these are all these. Flip.g. So that is the good question. That's a good question. So for for native assets, we, we sort of just have these one-off icons.

But for any other asset, we'll show you the icon of the asset. Ah, perfect. Oh, that's smart. Love it. You can expect Polygon logo and you can go here and logo here as well. Very smart. So if you had it on both chains, it would show you both logos. Correct.

And we have that if you have on five chains, solve five logos. We have some ideas about like, you know, USDCs across a lot of chains and being able to click in and then seeing to like this aggregated balance view, but we have not. Got it. There's a lot of ideas around that, but I haven't done it yet. Okay. Okay. You got it.

Cool. I think it's time to move on to the NFT tab. We're going to get at some point in this conversation into like, when is this actually going to arrive, right? Because we're in beta version. You guys haven't deployed, but that's on everyone's mind. You don't have to answer it now. I want to, we want to tease people. And, uh, but, uh, but, uh,

Yes, be thinking about your answer for that because we're going to ask. We have an answer. Good. But we're also happy to tease the audience if you like. All right. Yep. Tees. Cool. So moving into the NFT tab, so I will say this is one differentiator between us and MetaMask on the extension at least that we show NFTs.

So I have some 100 NFTs in here. You can click into the collect. So this is the Popheads collection on Solana. Then click again to see the actual NFT. We actually added up. So a lot of these features are not even available to Salana users. So we rewrote the app completely for multi-chain. Wow.

Which maybe answers your question about why I took a salon too. Like what would the list button do here? So you can actually list this on Magic Eden. Magic Eden. Magic Eden. So with, is Magic Eden is now on Ethereum? Magic Eden is now on Ethereum, are they moving to Ethereum or something? So maybe that's another important concept is this in the same way as the home tab, this is a blended view of your NFTs.

So these are just having NFTs. These are so NFTs right now. We are, we will buy an Ethan if NFT on this call. On this call? Okay. We have a recommendation. Cryptopunk. Do you guys do sound NFTs?

Pardon? Do you guys do sound NFTs? they could buy into the bankless collection, David. You can buy them expensive, though. I do like how you can list an NFT straight from the wallet. That is probably a fantastic user experience that to expect people to, like people to expect it just to have.

So, okay, so it tells you what the floor price and tells you the original purchase price. And so here's a philosophical choice that I'm seeing here. You have the ability to list an NFTs, straight from the wallet on a specific marketplace, right? So this is a choice that Phantom wallet has made on its users about a particular NFT marketplace that it has chosen to be the place to go. Can you talk about a little bit of that, why that choice, right?

Because if I wanted to put on like my open source maxi hat, I would say like you guys are making a kingmaker out of Magic Eden by just like routing the NFT liquidity there. Can you talk about that choice? Yeah, I can talk a little bit about that. So yeah, it's important to note that, you know, there's the experience that you have inside the walls of the wallet, but then there's also the experience of browsing any Web3 application you want outside of the wallet. And so even though we provide a lot of interesting convenience features in the wallet,

you can always bring your wallet with you to any application you want, whether that's OpenC or Blur or something else and use them there. but we do offer certain convenience things directly into the wallet. And yeah, I'd say the choice that we made there is mostly around sort of safety and security. So when we put something directly into the wallet, we're basically making an implicit guarantee around, you know, the safety and security of that. And so we don't want to add any random marketplace that shows up. we actually do want to make sure we vet the marketplace, the team, the integration, et cetera,

before we say like, hey, this is safe for users. Is that tied into your business model at all? Like, is that kind of like, do you get a referral commission? Is that part of how you monetize this thing? Because like a wallet is free, but of course, like Metamask, for example, monetize it in various ways, right? They have like kind of a liquidity provider. They take a portion of fees. Is there something like that about family?

that just people should be generally familiar with? Yeah. So on the third tab there, we do have an in wallet swapper, which is very similar to Metamask. And like Metamask, we basically take a fee on certain pairs when you trade there. That's sort of described when you are sort of checking out. So, yeah, I mean, I think the business model is something that we're still, everyone's sort of figuring out in the wallet space. but the way that we're But like the NFT listing,

you're not receiving any commission on if you listed on Magic Eden versus OpenC or something. Is that correct? Not the moment. But it's something that actions that we take, basically the way we think about

is that we want to bring the best of ecosystems directly into the wallet, the best of different verbs or actions that you like to take. And all those are potential potential yeah, surface area. where we can add a convenience fee or do something. Are there plans to integrate open-te?

No concrete plans at the moment, but also no concrete blockers, just a matter of prioritization. Yeah, okay. Well, it's worth this. This feature was designed in such a way that we can support multiple providers. It just so happens that Magic Union is extremely dominant on Solana, so we decided to go with them first. Well, that's cool.

So NFTs in the browser, in the extension, of course, course, all of this is the same user experience, really, but very similar. So these are all NFTs that you own. Can you also browse NFTs broadly? Or only the ones that you own? Right now, it's only the ones that you own. On the mobile experience, we have a fifth tab, which is the browser. And we used to surface some recommendations in there.

But of course, Apple wasn't happy about that. So we can get to that too. No, it's basically yours. Coen of yours. If you scroll down there, you can actually see that there's an ENS in here as well. Oh, there is, yeah. Yeah, so we have this phantom vault.eath, ens in there. That is cool.

Okay, so we've gone through kind of two tabs at the high level. Is there anything else on the... The other thing to call out is, I think one thing we've learned is that a lot of NFT experiences are designed around, especially in wallets or just it feels like they're designed around users having maybe hundreds or tens or hundreds of NFTs but we just find that our users have thousands so that's actually pretty common and um and there's a whole bunch of reasons why that's challenging for us but one one way one reason or and for them as well so like that's why we added search we also so just to show you um like you're easily able to navigate

into the specific NFT that you own. And we also have a, we have a lot of management features as well coming out. So you can pin the collections you want to surface, bring those to the top of your collectibles tab. You can hide a collection if you, you know, don't want to see it. You can report it to spam.

So we've added a lot of, you know, given that our users have literally thousands of NFTs, we've added features to help and manage them. because it can be really hard just to even find your NFT if you don't have this. That's really good, guys. Yeah, that's an important note that I want to double click on is that sort of our experience on Solana has been really interesting because we've sort of, we've seen, we've taken a peek into the future of what an ultra-low fee environment looks like.

And the different types of issues and problems that appear there. And yeah, basically TLDR is that, people love to collect a lot of NFTs. So yeah, a lot of users actually have thousands of NFTs. And some users each actually also have hundreds of wallets that they manage within. Well, that's what I think is cool. It's like back to kind of philosophies of, you know, Metamast started with Ethereum main chains expanding outward, right? Whereas you guys started as like in the Ethereum world we might call like a side chain or different chain, the Solana ecosystem.

Now you're expanding in. And that gives you like the whole experience in Solano over the past, you know, 18 months. It's got to be like Ethereum on steroids, basically, right? And so you've solved some of those problems. You've already, you know, started to think about multi-chain. And it really, I think it like primes you guys to go, like, because the multi-chain thesis is correct. Like, I think that's been like shown. It's correct.

Now, there's still some question as to whether there'll be like dominant settlement layers. versus a world of many side chains is we've talked about this on bank list for listeners, right? It's like kind of like the Ethereum one settlement layer and a whole bunch of layer twos and the cosmos, everything's an app chain sort of notion and maybe there's some probably space in between where they kind of like converge.

But both of those visions are multi-chain, to be clear, right? Like even in Ethereum with layer twos, you're going to have Arbitrum and Polygon and optimism and all the ZK-ZK provides. as well. And so because you've already designed around that, that allows you to kind of expand quicker. So I guess maybe I'm kind of leading up to rather than a statement, maybe sort of like a question, does this all make a layer two expansion fairly easy? Because now you're all in a straight EVM world. And you started with kind of polygon. But like it's got to be, I don't know, like you tell me,

you're the CTO, Francesco. So correct me if I'm wrong. But it's got to be once you're here in Ethereum land and EVM, pretty easy to sort of scale this out across other layer twos. Somewhat. We, so I think you're right in that we were able to solve a harder problem up front, which is to support a non-EVM chain and an EVM chain at once. And in this case, two EVM chains and one non-EBM, because that's, that's a lot harder than it is just to support multiple EVM chain. And so we are really well positioned to add support for our Bertram, Avalanche, you know, L2s, what have you.

But I will say that it's not as easy as you think because our integrations are actually very deep. So, you know, even going back to the home page, we actually show you, unlike other wallets in many cases, we show you all your tokens. So like we have an index of like which tokens you own and make sure to service those automatically. You don't have to add it. The same way, getting NFT data is quite challenging for new chains. Supporting swapping for new for for on new chains can be somewhat challenging. Transaction history, same story. So I think there is it's really easy for us now to to add support for new chains in like a shallower

shallower way, so like this progressive enhancement, graceful degradation concept that you saw in browsers in the early days too. So we have that, we have that sort of concept. But, you know, so it's really important to think about like this degree of support concepts. It's definitely easy for us to like have light support, but the lift's required to actually add all these features for a new chain is, is a non-trivial. There's something that you said, Francesco, about how you got, Phantom got a taste of what a low fee blockchain looks like. And it's always been mine and Ryan's philosophy that like the economics of a monolithic blockchain are unsustainable.

But again, we don't have to go into that. But like Solana, I think what I got out of that is like Solana during its height of the bull run really got a taste of the future, right? It was ahead of the game. What happens when there are zero fees? You see a Cambrian explosion of more NFTs, more collection. And so, like, to me, this wallet, whoever's wallet this is with a bajillion NFTs in it is a taste of the future. You're muted, Ryan.

Is a taste of the future, right? Where I expect everyone to have thousands of NFTs across so many different ecosystems for whatever reasons. That is the Web 3 future that I envisioned for the world. Solana got there first because of the low fees. Whether or not monolithic chains are sustainable is a different story. But we are going to see chains with basically zero fees for years. users in the long term. The crypto world, whatever your thesis is, it will converge upon that. So like...

I mean, thousands of NFTs, David, this sounds like deep, like, are people, people just get addicted to this stuff. Well, I mean... That's a real problem. Well, I don't... I wouldn't think of, like, thousands of collectibles, but, like, we got a playing card here, right? Like, so, so rare and their... It's all your metaphors property that you have.

Yes, exactly. Your swords, you're playing cards, your Pokemon, you're whatever you want. You're any... Like, we, the whole point about crypto is that we get to make assets now. That's our power. That's our superpower that we have. And now we get to explore that frontier of what assets can we make that are cool to make. And so like.

And it turns out people want thousands of them. Yes, exactly. Not just like, not just like a crypto punk and a crypto dick butt, which is me. But like, you know, all assets, all the assets. And so we need a wallet that can contain all of the assets. Yeah. Yes. That's correct.

It's actually really bad on Polygon too. like you can't really do anything on Polygon without receiving a spam NFTs. Yeah. Yeah. Spam NFTs, I think, is, yeah, the dark side of that coin. Do you want to talk about the hidden collections and going back to this truck and safety discussion? Yeah, there's a bunch of stuff that I still want to talk about. There's that.

The chat is asking win Phantom token, so I guess I'll have to ask that token. But first, guys, we have to cut to sponsors to help. thank all these sponsors to help us go bankless. In all of my years in crypto, I've never been hacked, scammed, or lost money to a thief, and a lot of that credit goes to my Ledger Hardware wallet. The Ledger NanoX and the Ledger NanoS Plus hardware wallets allow users like you and me to secure and manage all of our crypto assets and our NFTs, all with the security of storing users' private keys offline and out of rage from hackers.

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We're going to press some buttons in the Phantom Wallet. I think we might buy some NFTs. Guys, what buttons should be pressed first? Let's buy an EFT. Let's do it. Wow. Which one? Yeah, that's the big questions, which one?

We going big? We going little? Yeah, we're buying a crypto punk, right? We came prepared. We have five almost. six to spend. Six eat to spend? Big spend.

Dare we ask the chat? How much of a delay is there between the feed and the chat? About 10 seconds, yeah. There's 10 seconds. All right. So if we ask chat, what NFT should we buy? Oh, they're going to come running. Yeah.

Okay. We should tweet it out. What? Let me tweet something out, actually. You're going to buy an NFT live. We are live. We have five. You're not going to spend it all.

Budget your marketing budget, guys. Let's see. I'm in a live tweet this. While you work on that, we can talk about how it works, I guess. Yeah, that's all. That's all about how it works. Yeah.

Sorry. So we're on Blur. So Blur is an, you know, EFT marketplace or aggregator. So currently you have to, we're like compatible with these Metamask connect buttons. We are working with people across the ecosystem, like the various,

wallet connect modal solutions to add ourselves. And we expect to be in a lot of them when we launch. But right now, I'm going to click Metamask. It works. That's tight. How does that work? What happens if you also have Metamask loaded up, though? It's a good question.

So there isn't actually a good standard run for this. So I believe it's the extension you install second. that dominates. Wait, you guys hijacked the Meta Mask button? This is pretty common practice, actually. Wow, that's cool. We might add an affordance. We don't want to ruin the experience.

Right. I mean, you should be able to use what you want to use. And to be clear, if Metamask is installed after Phantom, Metamask does that, the Phantom. Right, right. And so there are affordances around, like, you know, being, letting you choose, but they're not really, we haven't really built them yet.

So yeah, you can see Pre-Senterconnect experience. I'm signed in. Oh, there's Tim Ferriss's NFTs. Well, you guys figure out which one to buy. You can just show you this transaction simulation feature. So it might be too small on the screen, but I'm going to click buy now on this floor,

Pudgy Penguin. Wow, the Pudgy Floor is at 4.2. good for the peng? And yeah, so it's actually the same experience that our Solano users are accustomed to. So we make it pretty simple. We just show you like what you're receiving and what you're sending or what you're paying for it. So it says Pudgy Penguin number 2,722 and then it shows you in red that you're, you know,

paying 4.23 for it. So this seems simple, but there's a lot going on behind the scenes. So the transaction is sort of being, these transaction in the origin as well as sort of being scanned to make sure there's no malintent. It's making sure the website is in the scam website. It's making sure there's not attempts to like curtail the simulation. So like get away with simulation. There's all this analysis going on in the background.

And if it had been a malicious transaction, you get this big red warning that says, hey, something's up. You may want to think twice about. approving this. So I don't, Brad, if you want to add anything. Maybe some stats about how many people we saved. Yeah. So this is an interesting one, something that we're pretty proud of. So on, so this, like Francisco said, this feature is live on the Solana's ecosystem at the moment.

And yeah, it's actually having real impact. So as of today, we've actually saved users from over 18,000 wallet draining transactions. Wow. 18,000 different instances. where someone was about to get fished into sending all their NFTs and tokens who were actually able to prevent those. And in the last 30 days alone,

we've saved 3,000, around 3,000 unique users. Say it again for the regulators. How many is that? Yeah, around 3,000 unique users. And I mean, that's crazy because all of those users are very likely users that will never come back again if they get fished. You know what I mean?

And so we're all trying so hard to, you know, bring all these users in. And yeah, you know, it's really up to everyone who's writing software in this space to provide like a safe and easy to use environment. And so to kind of retain people. Here's another thing that's super important. Back to kind of philosophy for a second. By the way, I tweeted this out, guys, and put it in the bankless Discord. So I'm getting some submissions in. I don't know what chat's saying about what NFT we should buy.

But like from a philosophy perspective, okay, part of the reason I think we got in the situation we did in 2022 where we trusted a whole bunch of centralized exchanges and actors and we let SBF steal $16 billion from crypto users in our industry is because we didn't have the tools in place to go bankless. And some of that is on us. Not all of it, but some of that is on us. we've been trying to talk about education, but when it's very difficult to get your crypto from an exchange and to start using a wallet, to the extent that that's difficult, we will have money that is locked in centralized providers, and we won't be able to actually live up to the full potential of this decentralized peer-to-peer money system, like the reason we're all here. So we end up making compromises and sticking our, funds in a Celsius or a blockfi because it's too hard. So to the extent that we are able to

solve UX issues and keep it bankless, that is truly how we scale this industry. So I'm very bullish on tools like this. And this is like back to a theme. We can talk about FTCS. We're not doing a single FDX SBF episode this week, right, David? And what we want to focus in on is how we're actually rebuild this industry and tools like this are how we rebuild this industry on on bankless principles. So I just want to hear from you guys again. So this is a non-custodial wallet, right? No one, we're not giving up our private keys to any third party. There's no bankers in the middle. There's no SBF. There's no Alex Machinsky like in your transaction set that you're trusting with your private keys. This is completely bankless. Can you confirm that for me?

It works the same way as Metamask. It works fundamental. the same way as a ledger hardware wallet. Can you confirm that for me and talk about that for a minute? Yeah, no, definitely. Yeah, consider that confirmed. So, yeah, Phantom at its core is a non-custodial crypto wallet that helps users self-manage their crypto. And not only store it and manage it safely,

but also do stuff with it safely. And so, you know, Phantom turns your browser, your existing browser or existing mobile phone into a crypto wallet and opens up a world of decentralized applications to users. And that's kind of really one of the core innovations of Web3 is the decentralized applications. And yeah, we really are aiming to provide safe and easy access to that. Is this still seed phrase driven? Is there any kind of like social recovery type of aspect or is that kind of like out of reach for now? Because that's another piece that's difficult for people. Smart contract wallets have tried to solve anything on that?

So currently the key model is the same as MetaMask and where there is a secret recovery phrase that lives at the heart of the wallet in which you can derive a number of different addresses. We do support hardware wallets as well. So you are similar to MetaMass. You're able to plug in your ledger and also save that as an entry that you can use. But yeah, key recovery and key management is definitely a huge area that we want to be innovating on in the future. Yeah, things like account abstraction, social recovery, potentially smart contract wallets, MPC, etc. Those are all things that are on the table for sure. And yeah, we're looking forward to pushing that forward.

Right, David. I think we bought us some time here. We're ready to put together a quick list of, A shopping list? Yeah, shopping list. I've got a few from my side. I'm monitoring Discord and Twitter. Do you have some to add?

Yeah, well, so from the chat, Pudgies have definitely come up. Crypto Covens, which I'm a huge fan of, has come up in the chat. Moniverse space, which I'm unfamiliar with. But if I could put my hat in the ring, I would 100% be down to purchase a crypto dickpot. The only NFT that matters.

Let me throw in my shopping list, and several people are typing as well. Stonies, not heard of Stonies, by Satoshi's mom. Might be a low price though. Maybe there's that. Pudgy Penguins came up on my side. Stonies are cheap, okay, that's the discount aisle. We can shop in.

Podcast NFTs because of the bankless community. This is not a self-submission. Cock punch. Tim Ferriss was recently on the podcast. Wait, wait, our NFTs just came up there. Yeah, yeah, you're at probably. It was great. Ah!

And then, and then, Pooleys. By the way, Pooleys go to a good cause. All right. Poolees are, do you guys know Poolees with a Y?

Pooley. Ooh, puffers. Peppers, yeah. So that's a Pooley derivative. This is? These are Pooley MFER derivatives. Oh, yeah. But we should do the OG Poolees.

Yeah, I didn't see that one. The reason is Pooleys are cool because it goes to like, Cool together, got a lawsuit, and it goes to the defense fund. That'd be one that would be cool. Nars, have you heard of this? Chain runners? Anyway, we've got a few options here.

Let's pick one or two. Okay. We're getting greedy here. Buy all of our NFTs. We should do like relatively cheap ones, right? Crypto-take pots. I can send some more, Ethan, if we're really trying to buy a podcast. No, no, no. Save your

your ETH guys. State your Eith, don't spend it. My only ask is that it's a profile picture friending because we're going to show off a personalization feature later. All right. Well, I know a few people who have that as their PFP, but I will stop. Without shilling your bags, what do you think makes the most sense here?

You're the NFT proud of. I think, okay, so MFers are CCO, Pooleys are good for a good cause. They're also cheap. I vote pullies. puffers pfers coolly puffers the ones we're looking at right now

yeah yeah does let's go to a good cost too I don't know but the pooly meme does all right we can buy a really nice one I don't know that makes a difference

does it take it I have to I'm uh this one resonates with me oh yeah pink white nerd glasses yeah glasses

yeah glasses are good I gotta have the glasses I have the classes. Seems like a fair price. So we're buying this on Blur. We're approving the transaction right now on the Phantom Wallet. And then we wait. Pending.

It's pending. Is that Ethereum? So it's slow. This is from Blur, actually. Oh, cool. All right. So, yeah, it's a good old-fashioned ETH transaction. What?

Where are the gas fees on this? How much we spend? I don't, not brand much. $6. $6. $6. And how much did we burn? No, I'm kidding.

That's awesome. Just like that. And now can we see it in the Phantom Wallet? So you can see a balance went down. We should probably search for it since we have, we also are a power user, Pooley. I think PFR is what you want. Here they are. Great.

Wow, that happened so fast. That populated so quickly. So it indexes like automatically. That's pretty magical. Yeah. Since we just bought a brand new identity, we can also. pin it. So if you can the top right, pin it. Now if you go back to the, our page, it shows right at the top of it. So cool. All right. Do you guys, do you guys, here's a challenge. Do you

guys do sound NFTs? How would it, how would it sound? We will, we can. We can play it. It just won't appear. The image won't appear. Okay. Right now. Well, let's do it. Let's buy one. Can we have a single? Can we have a few by bankless? I'm not the only, the only podcast Has NFTs that exists. Yeah. You're not saying we should, not saying that we shouldn't. Crypto renaissance is solid.

A solid collectible. All right. A two-five E. For Josh Rosenthal. This is great. Do you guys ever listen to this episode? The Crypto Renaissance episode? Yeah.

Not yet. There's a reason why we started that one. They have a collectible. It's just, I'm not going to say to my favorite. It was my favorite. Wow, I'm already done. Only $4.4.

But that must seem really high for you guys coming from the beautiful salonage. It is fractions of a set on something polygon. We just bought a sound NFT podcast, podcast, the Crypto Renaissance. We just bought our own collectible while live streaming. We're totally getting it, Liz warned. Well, we didn't. What's the name of it? It was there.

Just search B.A. I hear you. So, yeah, the preview actually shows up. I can play it for the audience. Oh, wow, the sound is coming through. This sounds coming through. Is everyone hearing that, or is it just us? Wait, so this, the...

Yeah, everyone's mean. Drop the beat. Keep playing it. So you guys, the Phantom Wall is already music NFT enabled. That's correct. Wow. It truly is happy now. Wow.

You made a return on it, too. Oh, because we bumped the floor place Because we bought the floor But this tracks the returns From what market is this feeding from I believe it's feeding from a few marketplaces This is the floor So if you were to sell the empty for the floor

We just increased the floor by buying it So nice job Bankless pumping our bags And by being on the bankless podcast, right? This is so cool Well, well done guys Thanks There's one to show off one final thing, which is we bought this Pooley before.

Going to set it as our avatar. Oh, nice. And what was that useful for? That just shows you, so you just know which wallet it is. You can just make it more. This is my gaming wallet. This is my NFT collection wallet. Totally.

Your wallets, Brenner addresses. I think one of the hard things with multi-chain is, like, there's a lot of addresses to manage, actually. And I think a lot of people rely on, like, skimming their, their, like, raw address. to know which wallet it is. Do you know, I have some memorized? It's bad. Not like the full thing, but like I know the four digits in the front and the back. Yeah, totally.

Yeah, exactly. And it's a bit harder when you're like, have three addresses to one account, quote unquote. So we've gone like, we've done a lot of user research and have gone pretty extensive lengths to like make this easier. So yeah, using as many visual cues as you can. So you can name it. You can put set a profile picture to it just so you remember which one of it. that's super good and I would remind folks like our analogy for an address a crypto wallet address your

public it's basically like it's your bank account number right like it's kind of and then you can put other property into it so it's almost like a bank fault but like how many of you know your your bank account number right that's on the bottom of a checkbook that you have like nobody knows that you shouldn't that's the point you shouldn't have to it should be abstracted away from you All right. So now it's the part where we get to ask you guys, the problem for everybody watching this episode is that this is not yet released.

But that will change. And when is that going to change? When is this going to be live on Ethereum and Polygon? You have, Brendan. Yeah. So, yeah, pretty excited to say that in the next few weeks. 2020. Christmas?

Yes. What? Before the holidays. Right. We will have not live to everyone, but we will have an experience where you can go and if you download the normal, the production Phantom app, you can enter in a beta code and sort of evolve it from a mono chain wallet to a multi-chain wallet and use it in this beta phase through the holidays.

Okay, cool. So let's be clear on what people need to do. So they should go to the phantom. dot app slash waitlist site. We'll follow us on Twitter because we'll be releasing the beta codes on Twitter too. And then you release beta codes on Twitter. Do you have a beta code right now that you can release? Oh, well, we could.

It's not actual right now, though, because we haven't submitted. Okay. Okay. But we can create a bankless code for you guys. Can we just do a bankless code so that people don't even have to remember if they watch this episode and they listen to it and they could just go to this phantom. dot app slash waitlist and type in bankless and they get this. We can just make one up now.

It's like, yes. Yeah, so for sure, we can do one that's called just bankless. Just bankless. Awesome. And then they have to, what are they downloading? Do they have to hit the download button for it to convert? So you just download the normal apps. So nothing special.

And then there will be a beta code redemption flow. And just go from there. Add in that app slash download. Guys, I just got the Twitter bot notification that a bankless NFT was sold. So thank you. You're welcome. Supporting a show. No, this is great.

Do we have to ask that, does the chat want to know anything else, David? Is there going to be a phantom token ever? Oh, okay. That's a good question. Something that we could talk about probably for a while, but in the short to medium term, we don't have any plans to do a token. Okay. I can elaborate, but yeah, I think that right now we're pretty much a laser focused on making sure that the user experience is as safe and easy to use as possible before, you know, overcomplicating things.

I think people are a little tired of like, yeah, token fatigue for a while. So that's perfectly okay. We're in the build market now, not in the token market. So guys, thanks so much for joining us. I'm really glad. This is great news for the entire crypto community. And really excited to see that you guys are coming back home, as you said, and in deploying here. I think this will expose it to a whole bunch more users.

So we appreciate you sharing this with us. Yeah, thanks so much, Ryan. David, it was a lot of fun. David, do we end with the Alpha League with the regular stuff? Yes, we do. Do you say those? Yeah, I do. You want to say them then or should?

No, I don't have them in front of me, so you have to. I kind of want you to do it from memory. Risk and disclaimers, bankless nation. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone. Crypto is risky. DFI is risky. I'll do this in a slightly different order.

But we are glad you are with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot. And cheers, guys. All done, David.