Bankless - pplpleasr | Layer Zero

Starting point is 00:00:07 Welcome to Layer Zero. Layer Zero is a podcast of unscripted conversations with the people that make up the Ethereum community. Crypto is built by code, but is composed by people. And each individual member of the crypto community has their own story to tell. Cyphopunks understood that the code they write impacts the people that use it. And Layer Zero focuses on the people behind the because Ethereum is people all the way down, and it always has been. Today, I'm talking with the artist People Pleaser, who is the renowned artist behind the Uniswop X times Y equals K animation that sold for almost half a million dollars and 100% of that revenue was donated to charity. People Pleaser is also the inspiration for Pleaser Dow, which has just become a gargantuan of just a Dow that is sucking up all of the cool cultural artifacts of the world. People Pleaser has really led the charge into what it means to become an NFT artist, but also an NFT artist that

Starting point is 00:00:59 resonates with some of the ethos and the culture of the cryptocurrency space and truly become focused on generating NFT art and using that skill, that artistic talent to direct money into charities. Throughout her collection of work, she's donated over $2 million of total value into various charities overwork and really believes in making sure that we instantiate some of these values for the long term of crypto and not just focus on this whole moon boy number go up, 100x bag culture. So I really appreciate that angle from people pleaser. And overall, I had a ton of fun finding out what it was like to be an art. artist before crypto, what it was like for her to get into crypto and now become a very

Starting point is 00:01:38 prolific hard worker in the world of crypto art in NFTs. So I hope you enjoy this conversation with People Pleaser. Before we get to that conversation, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible. Arbitrum is an Ethereum scaling solution that's going to completely change how we use Defi and NFTs. And now it's live and has over a hundred projects deployed. Gas fees on Ethereum L1 suck. Too many people want to use Ethereum and it doesn't have enough capacity for all of us. And that's why teams like Arbitrum have been hard at work developing layer two solutions that makes transactions on Ethereum cheap and instant. Arbitrum increases Ethereum's throughput by orders of magnitude at a fraction of the cost of

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Starting point is 00:04:12 How's it going? Not bad. I was literally just thinking about how the last time I did one of these was also the first time. And it was the first time we had ever met. And it's crazy now because what, it's been like eight months or something. Yeah, eight months since the uniswap X times Y equals K drop. And then that was my like introductory. into me realizing I very much missed out on joining Pleaser Dow before Pleaser Dow was Pleaser Dow. Yeah, for the listeners, the backstory is X times Y equals K, people pleaser's very famous animation of Uniswap V3 that came out around the same time, made a bunch of storm because a bunch of people got into a group together, pooled their funds to buy this thing. And really, the story was really,

Starting point is 00:04:51 really cool. So I pulled People Pleaser into a quick interview as well as Leighton Kusack. And that's where I met People Pleaser. And now I've met her in real life a number of times. And so a lot of these relationships that people listen to on podcast are actually people are watching them form in real time, which is kind of cool. I think that's super cool. Yeah, I mean, so much has happened, I feel like, in the past eight months. Yeah, especially in the world of NFTs and definitely your career, which is definitely something that we're going to tap into here on this layer zero. But first, before we get there, people pleaser, what's up with that name? How'd that come about?

Starting point is 00:05:23 It's funny because this name actually came before I was sort of involved with crypto. And it was recently, I guess like in August or something that I revealed in my sort of like op-ed that had been published was that why I sort of got to Defi last summer and everything was because during the pandemic, I got a job at Apple, but then they rescinded it because of the pandemic. And then so I ended up basically unemployed and needed to look for a job and stuff. And so during this time, well, this was like early 2020. And then I sort of just bill my time, like my free time, while I was job hunting. created an art Instagram. And then at the time, I was just looking at all these, like, cool artists online. And they all had, like, I guess, like, cool artist names. And then, you know, my real name is not particularly interesting or unique. So I thought that I needed also an artist name.

Starting point is 00:06:13 I mean, I never thought that it was going to go anywhere when I created this. I was just like, I'm just going to create something. Almost like, it's kind of like the equivalent of being on CT and creating an alt or like an on account. Right. And then so I was looking for a name. And my personality, I guess, in general. is very much a people pleaser type. It just kind of came to me on the spot and I just thought that, oh, I can always change it later anyways if I wanted to.

Starting point is 00:06:38 I guess that didn't end up having it. I didn't have time to do that. The way that it's spelled is like super weird and people get it wrong all the time. And the reason for that is literally just because at the time it was really trendy to do like names that didn't have any vowels in it. And then so I wanted to just do like PPL, PLSR. But then that one was already taken on Instagram.

Starting point is 00:06:58 So then I just, slowly added vowels back in until it like wasn't taken and that's literally why it's felt super weird and i've seen like every possible different combination of like the wrong spelling now on twitter like up to date so when you were coming up with this pseudonym you were not in crypto at all you are free adventuring into crypto right um i mean well i actually had like bought and you know was investing in crypto since 2017 but um i guess i wasn't in crypto in the sense that i wasn't like an active contributor or a participant. At the time when I created my Instagram account, I didn't even have a crypto Twitter account. I just had like a regular Twitter account from like 2012 that I used

Starting point is 00:07:40 to like occasionally complain to companies to or something. That's pretty funny. Keep on going backwards because a lot of your skills that you are now injecting into the crypto world came from at your actual career. So what was your career like before crypto? When I graduated college, I immediately just started working as a visual effects artist, we're like in 3D animation. So I worked for a bunch of different like either feature animation studios or visual effects studios. And I worked on some movies like Batman versus Superman, Wonder Woman, Star Trek Beyond,

Starting point is 00:08:17 yeah, a bunch of other like animated movies. So that's what I was doing. What would you actually do for these things? What part of these movies were you animating? So I was in this department called lighting and composing, which is, as everybody knows, like 3D animation or like computer graphics is extremely laborious and very, very specialized in every, every single department. And then so, you know, you have something you need to create Godzilla, right? So you start with like the model.

Starting point is 00:08:42 So somebody, you know, just like modeling something in real life with clay will literally go and like sculpt Godzilla or like, you know, what they think is like Godzilla. And then that's the model that's created. And then it'll go to, you know, sort of either texturing and shading, which is where somebody deterred. like just how sort of like what Godzilla's like skin texture is going to look like, you know, what colors, that kind of stuff. And then it's going to go through all these process of like rigging, animation, which is where you like fit a skeleton on the model. And then suddenly like Godzilla can make moves. And then the animator will then go and keyframe all those moves so that let's say Godzilla's like throwing a punch. Then like the animator will do that. And then they pass it to like,

Starting point is 00:09:21 sometimes there's like effects, which is the department that does like all the smoke and debris or like explosions, whatever. And then after that, all of that is done, they pass it to somebody called in lighting, which is like what I did. When they pass it to me, it doesn't really have, you know how if you see like 3D programs and everything is all like gray and stuff? That's basically what it looks like when it comes to me. And then so I would be the person who first renders the scene and also determines like what the mood and setting and everything of the scene should look like. So I do that and then I send out the renders. So then all of that 3D becomes 2D again because it becomes like 2D renders and then just rendering frames like typically at 24 frames per

Starting point is 00:10:00 second and then however many seconds a shot is and then after all those frames are rendered out then it goes through the last department called compositing so sometimes I do that sometimes other people do that and it's just sort of like putting on all the like finishing touches so I'm just kind of like the person who grabs everything and like puts it together make sure it looks good and then we ship it out yeah so I was doing that for many many years and then before like I got to cryptic My last job was at Blizzard on their Cinematics team. And then I was working on the Diablo for game cinematic, not in game cinematic, but like the ones that like look like movies. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:10:36 Yeah, the cutscenes, the Diablo cutscenes. Blizzard is also like famous as a company for making really, really elaborate like lore and and cutscenes. So and also as a fan of Diablo and I think there's a lot of crypto people that use Diablo 2 as their like crypto gaming metaphors. Like, oh my God, what if Diablo 2 had in game assets? I think there's like a large like overlap between like Diablo fans and crypto fans. So having you is like working on the Diablo Cinematics and then coming over into crypto is actually kind of fortunate, I would say. I mean, I would hope so.

Starting point is 00:11:06 It's funny because I, I wasn't a huge Blizzard gamer. I do play games, but I didn't play that many Blizzard games. It's mainly just because they're kind of hard and I'm like not good at games. And so when I was interviewing with Blizzard, they're like, so what, which games do you play? I was like, I mean, I don't really play any of them. But obviously, you know, I do know about the games. I have also played Diablo 4, which apparently is really similar to Diablo 2. You've played Diablo 4?

Starting point is 00:11:34 Huge flags. I have it. It was scheduled. I had it on like the month, January 2020. It's like blocked off time off my calendar and then I realized that they canceled it. Or they didn't cancel it, but they kicked it out. Oh, yeah. I'm not surprised.

Starting point is 00:11:48 I don't think it's coming up for a while. Oh, no. Oh, no. Breaking the alpha, sadly, here on the show. What was your favorite part about making the Diablo Cinematics? There was any part about the cinematic that really stuck out to you? Have you seen it? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:12:02 So it's the one that debuted at LizCon in 2019. And I think it's just, I really like working on that one because it was so gory. It was just so dark. I think they actually, they changed it so that it became a little bit less messed up because the original version was even more dark and gory. They were like, okay, this is maybe a little bit too much. But I mean, I really liked it because, yeah, I kind of brought it back to the whole sort of vibe of Diablo, too, of like the very dark lore. Lilith was one of the main characters at the end. She looked really cool.

Starting point is 00:12:36 And I just liked how the entire, it was about like nine minutes, I think, like the short film, I guess. The entire short film, like all the way up until the end was just like this constant ramp up. You know, it was just like very dark and weird. And at the end, there's like this mega grand entrance of Lilith. And the music is pretty crazy. Yeah, I mean, obviously it was really interesting to work on the aesthetics of it, but nothing could compare with like the feeling of watching it on the big screen for the first time at BlissCon because you're actually just sitting in a crowd of people who are so like passionate about this stuff and like hearing their reaction to like the whole thing was just, it was pretty cool. Have you been able to find similar experiences with your NFT art in crypto? Honestly, I think, yeah, like with X times like equals K specifically, you know, a lot of

Starting point is 00:13:23 people always say, oh, like, it's so cool that it's sold for, you know, however much. And I mean, yeah, definitely, you know, and everything about please or doubt was super cool. But I think my favorite moment of, you know, sort of like that moment, I guess, didn't even have anything to do with the fact that it sold as an NFT. Because earlier that week, before I even announced that it was going to be an NFT, when Unisop just tweeted it out without any context, just to read everybody's comments and responses was a similar feeling to watching. I mean, obviously it's not like a premiere or whatever, but it's like the virtual version of like watching something at BlissCon and seeing everybody's

Starting point is 00:13:59 reactions, right? That was really rewarding. I thought that was definitely the coolest part. Do you have any sense of like the differences between what the reaction of what Crypto-Twitter was versus the crowd at BlissCon? What were the crowd of people at BlissCon really focused on that they really liked? And then what were the crypto-Twitter people focused on? Were there any differences there? I think it's just, well, obviously crypto Twitter being online, you're watching all of the reactions happen in real time and all the comments and stuff. And also the animation is just so much shorter. So people were really, really, I mean, I think it's the funniest. Some people are like, what did I just watch?

Starting point is 00:14:36 Or like, what does this mean? Because it was like so vague at the time. And watching people pick it apart, like, you know, looking for any tiniest hint of like Easter egg. And definitely really cool that people spotted the B3 at the end in the story. stars, whereas the viewing experience for the Blizzard cinematic was way more like, almost like watching a movie or something where everyone was very, very quiet and focused, you know, the entire way through. And then at the end, they're like, whoa. And then, you know, they stand up and it was like standing in ovation or whatever. With your time working at Blizzard, the way that

Starting point is 00:15:09 you illustrated, it kind of made you feel like you are very, a part of a very specific team that does a very specific job. But my jips with the Unisot v3 animation is you are much more of like the total end-to-end, like, conductor of the whole entire art. What about Uniswap V3 and your first introduction to, you know, being your own artist, being the end-to-end artist? I know there were other people that worked on the V3 animation with you, but I think with this one, you just had a lot more control. What was it like to, like, take the shackles off of your 9 to 5 corporate job and start

Starting point is 00:15:39 to actually do art for art's sake? Well, I think it's really nice because it's just like you don't have to gain anybody's trust, right? And also, you know, the UNISOP team were also just extremely trusting in my vision. And they were just like, do your thing. And because of course, like the animation itself is pretty vague, um, at least at first glance, right? So it's cool that people would just be like, because, you know, maybe somebody who's more conservative might watch that and just be like, I don't even understand what this is promoting or, you know, and I'm really grateful that they don't try to push that kind of old school, like very narrative, literal type of.

Starting point is 00:16:15 art direction on me, you know, to make it like a commercial because I really don't like that. Because really, to me, it was more about creating a piece of art, right? Yeah, I mean, there were three other people who worked with me on it. I'd say I probably did like 70, 80% of it. You know, the whole thing was just my envision, but it's just more of like the execution of it, given the time constraints and everything. And then there's maybe, yeah, like I was saying within animation, there's specific, very specific parts that, you know, somebody who's a professional in that field would do a lot better than me. So for. sample the movement of the unicorn and the piece looked so natural and cool because my really good

Starting point is 00:16:52 friend who now I work with frequently called Mirian, I used to work with in London and she's a professional animator. So she animated like, if you've seen like detective Pikachu, the movie, like she animated a bunch of the Pikachu shots. You know, she's just like so good at bringing these things to life and just giving them such natural movement. And then I also worked with this guy, Hefeet, who was. helping me sort of do like all the simulations for particles, you know, that has to do with more like generative simulated stuff within the video. And then obviously, lastly, there was Isaac's leader who did the score of the music. And so what happened was I originally made the animatic against this

Starting point is 00:17:33 track by this artist named Pariah that already exists. And then I was like, this is the, I sort of like cut it to the way that I wanted it. And I was like, this is the kind of look and feel that we're going for. And then I sent it to Isaac and then we had some back and forth where he would send me the track and then I give him notes and be like, okay, I feel like it should feel more like this. So yeah, it's like on top of just making the animation, I also felt like it was the first time that I was doing more of like a director role. So that was definitely a very cool experience and super rewarding. But when you're working on like real movies and stuff, you know, when you're in a team of like literally hundreds of people, yeah, obviously it's a very different experience.

Starting point is 00:18:11 At the very least, I feel like with the Blizzard cinematic, the Diablo 4-1, it was a vision that sort of aligned with mine. So the end product is something that I also liked, whereas definitely that doesn't apply to every single, like, other movie or feature animation that I've worked on. So, yeah, when you're working on something that you don't think is sort of like an align with your taste, it's a lot less motivating and feels way more like a job. Did you like stepping into that director role with Uniswap, with a, X times Y equals K animation? Or is that like, okay, I did it. I don't really want to do that anymore again. That was, I'm glad I did that one time, but maybe back to the artist stuff.

Starting point is 00:18:50 How do you feel about like director role nowadays? I mean, I really enjoyed it. I think as long as you have a solid team and then clients that really trust you, I would totally do it again. How did you actually convince? Because as far as I remember, correct me if I'm wrong, this was like you were donating your time towards uniswap, right? They were not compensating you.

Starting point is 00:19:10 And I think perhaps that's also. true for the other team members. And so is that not right? No, that's not true. Oh, okay. So actually Uniswap did pay me for making the animation. And then obviously with the people that I worked with, they were paid to sort of like do the work as well. But it was very, very, like, it's like not a lot of money, like at all. Right. Yeah. It's just to just to get the ball rolling. Okay. So my question was going to be, how did you convince all these people to like sign up and, and commit to the labor to produce this thing? I think perhaps maybe some of your answer. is like because it's cool, maybe because there's the clout there of like helping the uniswap team

Starting point is 00:19:46 produce the animation. But to talk about the incentive, but for you and all of the team members. Yeah, it's funny because I mean, all of those team members, and this is also why I actually was just thinking about this yesterday, where even to this date now, a lot of people that I collaborate and work with are people from my past life as in like pre-crypto life, let's say. Thankfully for my, I guess maybe it's either my people-weasing personality or something that I have built up really great and solid relationships with people in the past. And so, for example, when I approached them for the Unisop thing, other than Isaac, who is doing

Starting point is 00:20:19 the music, because he is Teo's friend, so Teo from Unisop brought Isaac in for the music. But for the, you know, the two sort of like animators that I was working with, they didn't know what Unisop was. They were just doing it. I mean, obviously, Marian, I used to work with her. So, you know, she's doing it because we have this, like, trust and a great relationship. And then Hafeed I found actually through like an online community, I interviewed. a few people, but he was just down to do it because he liked my vision. And he thought that when

Starting point is 00:20:47 I described the vision of the piece to him, he felt like it was really cool and he just wanted to do it. So yeah, I think I'm just blessed that, you know, neither of them knew how big it was going to be or anything. And they were just doing it based on trust and merit and, yeah, cool factor. Did they get crypto-pilled in this process? Are they now crypto people as well? I think they both got crypto-pilled in the process. Yes, they are both. more and more diving into crypto and NFTs. And yeah, I think they both like hold crypto now, which is great. What do you think did it for them?

Starting point is 00:21:20 Was it just the recognition of the community and the appreciation of the art? Was it the fact that the art itself sold for almost half a million dollars? Like what do you think really brought them in? I think this world is so intriguing right now and definitely had to do with the fact that crypto has, I feel like, gone a lot more mainstream this year as well. you can't help but just pay more attention and look into it right and obviously you know with me talking about it I think it brings a lot more things to their attention as well you know maybe like surfing the web you would see that a little bit less yeah I don't know I feel like it's just sort of like

Starting point is 00:21:55 it definitely wasn't like overnight it wasn't like after the unisonp video and they're like all right I'm in how do I get involved it was definitely more of like a transitional process I think it's like a slow red pill. When was the decision made that all the revenue from the uniswap animation would go to charity? How was that decision made? Beforehand, I had made that decision. So I literally, I remember I was so, I was like so nervous because at the time, actually, it was just like, I was just going to make this animation because, you know, anybody who had been familiar with my work before was just, I would make these animations for different defy protocols. And then pretty much all the utility was, was just they would post it on Twitter and that was it.

Starting point is 00:22:36 And then so around this time was when NFTs started sort of like really blowing up. And because I had been so busy, because I did sort of like list and sell NFTs, like even back in Defi summer and stuff. But it was never really my focus because I guess I wasn't really like famous then. So it's like harder to sell NFTs. And then so my main sort of like stream of income was just doing these commissions for Defy protocols. And then so at the time, I felt a little bit of FOMO thinking. about like, oh, I had spent all my time, like, making all these animations for defy protocols, but I had missed out on the whole, like, NFT wave. Or at least I just, I didn't commit much time

Starting point is 00:23:12 or, like, resources into developing myself as an NFT artist or a brand, things like that. And then so I just, like, thought of, oh, what if I sort of like double purpose this video by, you know, obviously the original purpose of making it for UNISOP so that they could tweet it out with the V3 announcement, but also if I could drop it as an NFT. So, like, multiple reasons. First, my family sort of like values and stuff that I grew up with. And my parents are pretty big on charity or volunteer work. So that's just something that I've always like been used to. And then also that I had always wanted to do. So when NFTs even like, you know, first was like, came into my radar, I was just like, oh, I would love to do like charity jobs or something. But

Starting point is 00:23:55 being that I wasn't famous at the time, you know, let alone feeding myself, I don't think I had enough sort of like firepower to be doing any kind of like charity drops. And then so that was just something that I wanted to do. And also because of the fact that Unisop had already paid me to do the work. So I felt like there was no purpose for me to take more money from this piece. And then so I just kind of like was really nervous, but came to them with this proposal like, hey, I think it could be cool if we dropped this as an NFT and then donated to charity. And then I was like really nervous the night before because I was like, what if they say no, blah, blah, blah. And then I mean, they were just like, cool. Yeah, let's do it. So that's like how it happened. This is going to probably be an impossible question to answer.

Starting point is 00:24:37 But how much do you think that the hype around and the ultimate price that was discovered for the X times Y equals K animation, which I think was $430,000, I think. So a very large number. How much do you think of that price that value was added because it was ultimately going to be donated to charity. Do you have any speculation on that? I actually don't. It's so hard to say. I almost feel like maybe it added a little bit, but at the end of the day, I think that a lot of the value came from sort of, it was a combination of all these people in the defy community who I had like previously worked with or were familiar with my work, who just sort of

Starting point is 00:25:17 like wanted to, I guess, like support me because it's almost like they feel like I'm like one of them. And then at the time, I think the NFT space was also very much like still kind of a separate community, right? And then so they were like, I don't know, like poster child or something. And then so it was really nice that I think everybody wanted to support that and also combined with the fact that the video had gone so viral, like literally within 24 hours that it came out, it was over half a million views on Twitter. It's like, you know, I think even to the state, it's Unisop's accounts, it's like most engaged tweet. So obviously things that like have this sort of element of virality sell for a lot when it

Starting point is 00:25:56 comes to like NFTs. And but I feel like the sort of like the charity aspect is sort of what put it in the stratosphere in terms of the impact afterwards. Like after the sale, people were like, why is this girl just donating all this to charity? And a lot of people were like, oh, she's like probably doing it for attention or something. But this is just something that my family, you know, has been sort of like, largely believed in and just like values that I was raised with. And it's in a time where I'm just

Starting point is 00:26:23 going transitioning from like last summer where I was literally jobless and like worried about affording rent to being grateful that I just had some kind of income by creating these commissioned animations for defy. That was already so sufficient for me that this like crazy irrational influx of like NFT money just didn't even feel right for me to just be taking or milking at the time. So it just made a lot more sense for me to share it with others. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like probably for that multitude of reasons, but I definitely didn't think that it was going to go for that much. Like so yeah, it went for around like 310 Eith at the time, which yeah, and I remember that week too, like ETH dipped. So at the time it sold, it was about like 525,000.

Starting point is 00:27:10 But like that was like literally during the low point of ETH because like earlier, you know, like Eath was like way more and stuff. And then, and I had actually wondered if I should like delay the NFT drop because it was like, ETH is really low right now. But then I, I spoke with Machi Big Brother, I think before I was just like, do you think I should still do it? And then he was like, don't try to time the market. Just stick to your original plan. And I'm really glad that he convinced me to do that. You might have actually gotten more Eath because it was valued at a lower US dollar number. And so that actually might have been

Starting point is 00:27:44 accidentally the optimum time. Yeah, it's entirely possible. The critique of, oh, she's just doing this for attention, I think is interesting because the type of person who would donate all of the revenue to charities also the same type of person that doesn't necessarily need attention. That kind of feels like it goes hand in hand.

Starting point is 00:28:01 But also, like, if the output of that decision is a bunch of attention, there's something to say there about, like, how this NFT world can really just like be marketed to the mainstream, right? If the NFTs that get don't, that donate to charity generate more attention than the NFTs that don't, this is exactly what Vitalik was talking about in one of his articles. I can't remember which one, but it's something along the lines of like, you can bestow legitimacy upon NFTs by committing a lot of the sale money to

Starting point is 00:28:29 charity. And he just said, I think something along the lines of like 10 to 20 percent, but you just did the whole full 100 percent. Do you have any like thoughts or reflections on that? I definitely feel like just for all the reasons that I said previously, which is why I just donated. Because then it's like also because I wasn't going to be like trying to barter with Unisop like, oh, well, do you guys want to keep like 60%. You know what I mean? Like it just like didn't make sense. And it's like, I don't think Unisop needed the money or did they care about that money. For me personally, it was like I said, I was just going from like literally being jobless, being grateful to have income to sustain myself to like, here's half a

Starting point is 00:29:08 million dollars. Sort of like transition was just too, it was almost like incomprehensible to me. And then so even myself, I wasn't comfortable just like taking all of it. Basically, I was just like, I don't, yeah, I don't feel like it makes sense. It was definitely, even now to the stay, I feel like, it's just a personal value, really. And I have placed like zero judgment on anybody else who's like really milking the NFT movement, like good for you, you know. I think it's just for me that contrast was so stark that even now I have like either like imposter. syndrome or I'm just having trouble like adjusting. So it makes me feel better to share it with others. Because at the end of the day, it is just really ridiculous if you think about it.

Starting point is 00:29:48 You know, like I bought five apes for a combined like what $1,000 worth of Eath back in April or something. And then now I only have two of them left, but they're both worth like a combined of like 250 grand. Like it's just, it's insane. And if you think about pre-2020, 2021, Emily, where I'm just like sitting on the sideline thinking like, oh, I'd be grateful if I could get a $70,000 per year job right now. You know, it's just like that difference is just so insane. For me to be able to sort of like share that with other people who didn't have that exposure like myself before, I think is something that adds value to my life. In what ways has the decision to donate the money to charity actually ended up paying you dividends?

Starting point is 00:30:30 Like more job opportunities, more clout, more friends. How has that decision paid off? I think it paid off in the sense that I can sleep better at night. And also, obviously, the biggest moment was when I had worked with endowment, because this is actually work where people are like, oh, you're doing. You know what? I actually say that. But I actually, I'm really grateful that to this date, I don't think, like, I have very many hater. Like, I don't think I've seen more than, like, five of them or something.

Starting point is 00:31:00 So that's honestly, like, really cool. you know, to counter like the, oh, this is just for attention kind of thing. It's like I've been sort of consistent with my like ethos. You know, I did the same with like the fortune drop. And I just did like a drop on Solana. And, you know, it's actually what people don't realize is it's not just like, oh, I wave a wand. And then this charity thing happens when I get a bunch of clout. It's like I actually have to dedicate a lot of time after to working with endowment and or like the volunteers and researching into

Starting point is 00:31:32 what like charitable organizations we should give this to and like having meetings and like discussing this and you know it's like that's all work that's obviously like not only you're not getting paid for but it's like you're literally giving away money and also having to do that to make sure that it like goes into the right hands and that it's done properly and stuff and so you know it's definitely like no walk in the park but the whole process of learning this is also extremely interesting like I don't know that many people do this very often and they should because I don't know, it's interesting. And then also just like, it makes it so much more clear, like the value of the blockchain of everything being transparent applies so much more linearly and straightforward to charity

Starting point is 00:32:13 because it's all there. Like, you can literally see where the money is going. And I feel like maybe something that has held people back from donating more money in the past or something is that they're just like, well, I'm not sure where this money is going. You know, what if the organization just takes it? And I feel like so with obviously like the blockchain. I think that sort of shed some light there, which is really helpful. And then I guess like the last aspect of it, maybe like social karma is that people trust you and the one you say things. Actually, you know what? I want to bring up.

Starting point is 00:32:43 Another point is that I had at some point this summer, there was like this other NFT artist who was like, I don't think donating linearly to charity is like making any sort of like impact or whatever. And I just kind of like to counter that, I was just thinking, well, you know, at the end of the day, it is hard to tell if the amount of money I'm donating is actually making a difference because, you know, there's so many problems in this world. Sure, like one person can't solve a lot of things. But I think what is more powerful is that one person or like a girl like me, making what people call Chad donations like that gives me a platform for people to actually start paying attention to what I say. And I feel like if that alone gives me sort of like the stage to tell people and spread this idea of like value sharing and that Web3 can be more than just like stacking wealth for yourself, but you can also have like the room and ethos of sharing it with others. If just like donating this, given that that monetary value doesn't make that much actual difference in the real world. But if that many people more can sort of receive this message from me because I've donated, that and alone, it's worth it as well. Yeah, what you're talking about is just signaling the chadness of the, of the move itself, right? And so you're, like, a lot of humans out there, we learn by mimicking, like, we learn by copying what other people do. And if there's a bunch of people out there who

Starting point is 00:34:11 think that people pleaser is really, really tight and they want to be just like people pleaser, well, the thing that people pleaser does is donates to charity. And so you're kind of like leading by example, right? Sure. And I have been actually, so many artists afterward, have been inspired by this movement and we're like, even if it's just like 5%, 10%, you know, they're like, oh, part of this is going to charity. I think that's amazing. Should be something that people feel better about doing and shouldn't be shamed. But last and not least, I always, I can't emphasize this enough.

Starting point is 00:34:42 I started doing this after I had determined that I was able to have a steady income from just doing commissioned animations. Like, it's not like I didn't have any money and it just started like obviously. it's like the plain analogy where you put the oxygen mess on yourself first before you put it on other people. You have to feed yourself first. Like don't go and be like, oh, I'm going to start donating all my proceeds and then end up sort of like not fending for yourself. Totally. Yeah. If you can put food on the table, gas in your tank and health care for your family, it's actually, you're actually going to be able to produce much more art overall once you get to that point. And like it's actually

Starting point is 00:35:20 rationally positive to be able to, if you want, if your idea is to maximize, maximize money to charity, you have to make sure you're comfy first so that you can actually work. Yeah. Do you know, because this was not the last piece that you made where you donated money to charity, this was perhaps just the first. Do you know cumulatively like about how much money has collectively gone to charities throughout your career? Big, big ballpark number. Big ballpark number?

Starting point is 00:35:44 Probably like closer to two million now. Nice. Over how many different pieces? Well, I mean, let's see. So for the uniswap one, actually by the time, hilariously, you know, even though it sold for $525,000, when I actually donated it, because like I said, there was all this work that went into after like researching and stuff. So when we actually made the donation is when we convert the ETH was like, I think maybe two months later. And then so EF had gone up. So it was like, I think almost $700,000 that ended up being donated, which is great. And then for the fortune one, I think it was also almost $700,000. And then there's like a few other pieces of mine like the A16 Z one that I did back in May that sold for like I think 120 something thousand. And then also for the the Solano one that I did recently was about 130,000. I guess like if you add that up, it's like maybe almost like two million.

Starting point is 00:36:42 And every single one of these, 100% of the revenue all went to charity? No. So for the Fortune one, 50% of it went to charity. And then me and Fortune split the other 50% for the Solana one, over 50% went to charity. For the A16Z1, yeah, actually all of that went to charity. Very cool. Very cool. I'm assuming it was the uniswap piece that really was the most impactful.

Starting point is 00:37:06 I'm sure you had some vision of how you wanted your life to go. And then you made the uniswap animation. And then perhaps after that, your vision of where your life would go changed. If that's true, how did that change? Well, I mean, before that, I just thought that, oh, Maybe if I got famous selling NFTs, or if I got famous, then I can just sell NFTs for a living and just like drop, you know, let's say a piece of art every month and sell it for like one Eth. And then I'll be like, cool, that's like a salary, right? Maybe I'll have a lot more other time to do, you know, other things or work on other projects.

Starting point is 00:37:38 But definitely after the UNISOP drop happened, I think this year was obviously very transformative for me. But it is an ongoing process. But I just very, very slowly realized that my role was. within the community and just in this space in general has changed because suddenly there was so much sort of like more attention and responsibility that I feel like was bestowed upon me that I had this realization that my role was no longer to just make my own NFTs and sell them for a living, but I should probably use this platform and voice that I have responsibly and which ties back to what I was saying earlier about if I have a voice to just inspire people to do better and to share

Starting point is 00:38:18 with others. You know, this crypto bull run is so crazy. I'm sure everybody who's been participating this year feels that way. And yeah, it almost just feels unfair for the people who missed out or don't have the opportunity to participate in something like this. If there's like the double purpose of educating them about it, bringing this to their attention and also like being able to literally help their life, that's literally, I don't know, upside for everyone. So how do you, what's that experience actually like? So when it comes time for, for, for, people please are to work. It's work time. But you're actually not making animations. You're not making art. You're doing what you're just describing, which is helping, you know, spread the message.

Starting point is 00:38:57 What does that look like? What are you actually doing? It's funny because I don't see it that way. I see it the other way. When I work, I'm actually creating or producing something. And then so even this year, right, like I went through the Unisop era where I just put my head down and I'm just, you know, similar to building or whatever. I'm like creating. And then same with like the fortune thing or the one for the Ethereum documentary. So I see them as like sprints. So I'll be like sprinting and like creating these pieces. And then after I do that, it's almost like it's almost like a, I go on like a little press tour after or something where it's just like rounds of like interviews, podcasts or like speaking at conferences. And that's where I'm doing things like spreading the message. And so I work.

Starting point is 00:39:40 And then my breaks are usually where I am doing sort of things like this. And then I'll go into work mode again where I'm creating. When I think of myself as working, it's always when I'm in the process of creating. And then the breaks are sort of like the little press tour runs that I do. Very cool. And then are you like hands on with other artists and getting them into this base? Are you talking them individually? Or are you like talking to platforms about how to inspire people? What's that like? I mean, honestly at this point, I don't have the bandwidth that I used to to sort of like talk to a bunch of artists individually. Of course, you know, there's always like friends who come to me and ask who are like curious about the space. And I'm always happy to like hop on a call,

Starting point is 00:40:23 red pill them into crypto, like show them metamask like the whole shebang. Yeah, these days I feel like I'm spending most of my time, you know, sort of either like talking at conferences or on podcast interviews. And occasionally I check my DMs. That's that's a great way to put it. Occasionally. I also check my DMs, but very, very, very rarely. Yeah. All right, guys, I hope you're enjoying the conversation with People Pleaser thus far. In the second half of the show, we get into a little bit more of People Pleaser's personal life, her relationships with her social groups of people that are in crypto versus out of crypto,

Starting point is 00:40:59 how she balances those two very big dynamics. Those are two differences. We also talk about further the role and importance of charitable giving and spreading wealth and wealth distribution inside of an industry where the number has gone up really, really quickly inside of a very small set of hands as it comes to the global population. So I hope you guys are going to enjoy the second half of the show just as you've enjoyed the first half of the show. But before we get there, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible. Living a bankless life requires taking control over your own private keys.

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Starting point is 00:43:40 So as a result of the Uniswap animation, this thing called Pleaser Dow was formed. Just like high level reflections on what the hell Pleaser Dow is and just like how that's impacted your life. I mean, definitely from the Uniswop thing. I think the most touching moment was when I realized that there were this group of like D-Fi D-Gens who just came together and formed a Dow and then literally named themselves after me. I mean, that alone was I think just a stamp of verification that my work. has obviously resonated and moved them in such a way that they would be motivated to do something like this. And, you know, for them to each chip in 10-Eath is like, I couldn't even imagine myself, like selling a piece for 10-Eath, let alone so like 20-something people all being like, yeah,

Starting point is 00:44:24 I'm willing to put in 10-Eth for this, you know? And then obviously it's like gone a lot crazier there. But back then it definitely felt a lot simpler and more pure in the sense that it was just, they just wanted to support me. And that's like super nice. And then while now PleaserDal is like grown into this machine, which is a whole other monster of its own, where they just literally, I don't know, they're just like buying everything that exists on this planet, basically. Like in the future, our houses are going to be like owned by Pleaser Dow. The logical conclusion of all Dalles are to own everything. It's just a matter of how you actually get there or not.

Starting point is 00:45:04 Any of the people that are now in Pleaser Dow, who of them did you know before Pleaser Dow? Did you know Layton or James at all before PleaserDow was formed? I think I had spoken to them briefly, like on the internet. So Layton, I remember actually this was like December of 2020. I think he reached out to me and just asked if I'd be interested in doing like a little animation for pool together or something. I feel like everyone in the D5 space has reached out to you and be like, hey, can you do an animation for us?

Starting point is 00:45:32 Yeah, literally that's what was happening. And I remember I had this little spreadsheet of like, okay, so after boring Dow, I have to do a de-hedge one. And after the de-hedge one, I have a sushi swap one. And then, you know, it's like, and then so I remember, I think at that point when Layden had reached out, my list was like so backed up that I was like, oh, it's possible, but, you know, you're probably going to have to, like, wait months or something. And then that was pretty much, like, the only, like, exchange that we had.

Starting point is 00:45:56 I mean, I didn't know that he was so cool. Like, I usually, like, always feel so bad when I can't say yes to people immediately that I'm like, oh, sorry. And then I always think I'm like. And hence the name. Yeah. I always think they're going to, like, hate me after or whatever. But I mean, obviously people are like super cool.

Starting point is 00:46:12 Like Layton was just like the next time I had any interaction with him was just him wanting to support like my work despite me never having the opportunity to do something for pool together. So Jemis, hilariously, I actually, I think James was also one of my like early followers from Defi Summer. And I remember him because he would sometimes like comment on my stuff. And then he had messaged me one time just to see if there was. any sort of like collaboration that we could do in terms of like NFTs or art or whatever. It also didn't like really come to fruition or anything. So these are sort of like the light interactions. But it's always just like the people in Pleaser Dow at the time were either people that I had already worked with or two online.

Starting point is 00:46:53 But I had never met any of them. So yeah, that was super cool. What's your role in Pleaser Dow now? Since you weren't actually part of the crew that actually bought your own piece, that would be a little oraboric. Like what's your position in Pleaser Dow to this day? Yeah, so basically a few weeks after, I mean, I think right after, I remember James kept messaging me, he's like, join Pleaser Dow. And then I was like, that's weird. I'm not going to join Dow that bombing on peace. And then like, so I just didn't. But then like a few weeks after that happened, maybe it was both like Andrew Kang and other people who were sort of explaining to me like their vision for Pleaser Dow and like, you know, where they think it could go. And then I was like, oh, this makes sense. And it's actually really cool. And it's more. than just like I thought that you know pleaser doubt would just end after like they bought my

Starting point is 00:47:42 piece I remember um at the time like somebody came up to me was like oh like I want to join pleaser or doubt how do I join and I just be like why do you want to join it's literally like the thing has ended like it's over you know little did I know it is not over and then so um I felt like their vision was cool and I wanted to see where it went so then they onboarded me as like an honorary member and then I was a lot more active like in the beginning months like for example when we were purchasing Snowden and everything, I was like, oh, you know, sort of like half orchestrating like the things, like the purchases and like the bidding and stuff. And then obviously, like, I feel like recently I've gone way, way, way more busy. So I just sort of like the Dow is almost

Starting point is 00:48:23 like, you know, there's like full time hires now too. So, you know, I am almost like advising from time to time. I feel like now my role in the Tao is just kind of like, I'm like the spiritual godmother or something where every now and then I like float in and I'm like, guys, remember like to have positive social impact and like, you know, just to like make sure that we don't lose sort of like the ethos that we originally had, which was what made Pleaser Dow so cool. And that we don't just turn into something that's like using other people's money to buy things to gain attention, which is not the way of the Dow, or at least for me. You know, it's like if you want to do that, then you can operate it on some other name. But as long as it's going to be Pleaser Dow, I

Starting point is 00:49:03 would hope that, you know, it's like things that have positive social impact, maybe some charitable aspects. I do feel like, you know, you can make like a successful, like also maybe like profitable Dow that's also good for society, right? Like it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. I do think in this world that I'm about to make up that the in the world where the Uniswap animation didn't have the money going towards charity, Pleaser Dow might not have formed. I know I know when I was talking to Layton about this, he wanted to. He wanted to. to own the piece. That's why he sent out that tweet in the first place. But he also, I think, expressed, like, one of the motivations as to why he thinks this could work is like, oh, everyone can

Starting point is 00:49:42 feel good about, like, contributing their money to the pot to buy this thing because of the charity element. Maybe there's a world out there where please or doubt actually might not have had the cohesiveness and the energy to form as a Tao without that charity element. Yeah, absolutely. And I knew that it also, you know, for people like Leo Chang or Monti Big Brother, it really resonated with them because I think they felt very, very strongly about the cause that I was donating to at the time, which was the stop Asian hate because this year, it's funny because it feels like a lifetime ago, but it's actually just this year in March where all these like terrible Asian hate crimes are happening. And obviously being Asian myself, I felt like it was a

Starting point is 00:50:22 responsible cause to contribute to. And it resonated with other Asians in the Dow, I guess. How did you land the Fortune article? How did you land the Fortune article? How did that happen? They reached out to me. Not the article, the cover. They reached out to you? Yeah. Is that one of the times where you checked your DMs and then all of a sudden there's like a request fortune cover in there?

Starting point is 00:50:42 Well, so funny enough, like even when Uniswp reached out to me at that point, I wasn't even really checking my DMs anymore. So it was always through like, you know, it's like somebody that you know or whatever. So Unisop, Teo reached out to Turun, who then obviously me and Turun already knew each other. So we were connected on telegram and stuff. So Tarun is like the famous telegram that I always referred. refer back to Turun and messages A one morning, goes, hey, someone from Unisop wants to know if you want to work with them. Like, that's where it all started.

Starting point is 00:51:12 And same with Fortune. So it was Alex Mazmage who reached out to me because we already connected. He was like, hey, somebody from Fortune wants to connect with you. And at the time was Robert Hackett, who just sort of like got my email. And he was just like, hey, I just want to know if there's any sort of like capacity that we can work together. And then that was kind of the exchange. Nothing happened for like months. So I was like, okay, I don't like really know where that went, but cool.

Starting point is 00:51:36 And then a few months later, their creative director, Peter Herbert, got the email from Albert Hackett. And then he just cold emailed me. So I do check my emails, obviously, because, you know, less people have access to that and stuff. And then so he just cold emailed me. It was like, hey, Emily, like, we love your work. Your Unisop thing was awesome. And you seem very like, you know, sort of perfect for like the crypto community narrative.

Starting point is 00:51:58 and then we're doing this new issue that's going to focus on crypto and defy, do you want to do the cover? And I was like, seriously? And then so, yeah, that's literally how it started. For those that haven't seen the Fortune cover, it's a landscape, like it kind of looks like a building, a skyscraper, there's a bunch of different rooms. But importantly, there's a bunch of crypto Twitter characters on there. All of these like avatars that crypto people have on crypto Twitter.

Starting point is 00:52:23 Importantly, none of them are human pictures, right? They're actually just like digital representations. How did you go about the selection process of who got to be on the Fortune cover or not? Ha ha. This is where I wield all the power. No, I'm just kidding. It actually is, you know, I mean, at the end of the day, Fortune reached out to me. They wanted me to do the cover.

Starting point is 00:52:43 They had zero direction for anything. They were just like, we just want to put your art on the cover. Obviously, knowing the piece is going to be about, like, crypto and defy, I wanted to make it sort of like fitting. And I just thought, look, they reached out to me. And there's a lot of people who have like or sort of like internet friends that I've made along the way or people who have supported my work and has shown me kindness. And sort of to give back to them, I won't put them on the cover. That's pretty much it. I mean, obviously a lot of them are also like influencers because that's where like Emily's like business brain kicks in.

Starting point is 00:53:15 I'm like, well, I'll also, you know, the thing basically markets itself, you know, like once it comes out, all these people are obviously going to be excited that they're on the cover. They're going to tweet about it. It's just like, and they're all of their, and they're all already influencers. They're going to bid for it, all that stuff. Yeah. They're going to bid for it. It's just like the thing markets itself. That was purely a business decision.

Starting point is 00:53:36 And in terms of who went on it, because I knew that there were some like crypto influencers who were like, why wasn't I on the cover and stuff? You know, who obviously also had a lot of followers and stuff. I'm like, well, first, I don't know. Like, you've never spoken to me before, you know? So, like, so, yeah, all the people on the cover are people who, I would consider my friends, have shown me kindness before, have talked to me before, and I'm like, look, if you're a friend of mine, I'll put you on the cover. Nice, nice. Yeah. And the through line that I keep on thinking about in many, many different capacities is how this industry incentivizes kindness. And it goes back to the very basics of like the chain is transparent. People can see what shenanigans you get up to.

Starting point is 00:54:20 Like if you hack a defy protocol, we can see that. Maybe we don't know who you are. we know where the money goes. And because of that transparency, like, in order to grow a name for yourself, because people can check on everyone else in this space, like, you really get to reward kindness and reward the properties and the qualities that you see and the people around you. Any thoughts on that? Yeah, it's a positive some mindset, right? Or positive flywheel, whatever you want to call it, is just your effects affect other people.

Starting point is 00:54:49 And, you know, it's just sort of like get a little bit more philosophical. and I think like wacky conversation is like, I imagine a future where like AI is literally being trained by everything they see on the internet. So if everything that's happening on the internet is always like hateful comments or, you know, like trolling, things like this, like negative things, we're probably when we reach something like the singularity going to be in a pretty dark place where AI has learned those ways. So if we're behaving like showing kindness, behaving like more positive loops,

Starting point is 00:55:19 hopefully, you know, we're just like building a better future for ourselves. really. Before you got into crypto, I'm assuming you had non-crypto friends. Yes. Have they become crypto people? Some of them actually. And then it's funny because it's not through me. Like for a while after I started, I guess, like getting more notoriety within the crypto community because thankfully I conveniently had this like all pseudonym people pleaser. And then so I was actually able to keep the identities pretty separate. And then so, you know, I never actually talked about my crypto. career or what was happening in my life to my regular friends. So why this is also sort of like a metric of how I feel like crypto was becoming more and more mainstream or was that was getting

Starting point is 00:56:02 bigger was like I would literally get messages from people in the past being like, hey, I like saw you on the news today or like, hey, you know, like. And then so I'd be like, okay, this sounds like crypto's like actually becoming mainstream if they're seeing things like this. Because obviously when I was doing it during DeFi summer, like nobody would have like known what the heck I was talking about. I'm sure you feel the same way, probably about with your, like, non-crypto friends or his like crypto friends. It wasn't until, I think it was the first time that I went on Bloomberg, and then they were like, I was like, oh, I prefer to be called people pleaser. They were like, we have to say your first and last name once because, I don't know, something to do with

Starting point is 00:56:39 journalism and they can't, like, do fake, like reporting or something. Like, it's like a rule. And so they docks me. And then fortune did the same thing. They also doxed me in like their article and also they're like nifty 50 ranking and all these things. And so I feel like now the identities are like meshing together. And then it's kind of embarrassing. Like there'd be like people from my like non-crypto life in the past who like have come like, oh my God, I didn't know you were like doing this and like you're so big in like NFTs now or whatever. And I feel like, I didn't want you to know about this. Like, um, why do you want to compartmentalize those two different worlds? I don't know. I think it's like there's a few different reasons. Well, first it's like I feel

Starting point is 00:57:26 more it's just like having an alternate identity, right? Like I don't have to worry about people judging me when I say things on Twitter if like they don't really know the real me or whatever. And it is becoming more and more of a thing where I get more and more messages now from people in the past who are just like asking for things. They're like, oh, can you help me with this or you know what I mean? Or like, oh, can you give me an NFT or you know, like things. that are obviously either like financially motivated or something that dude you haven't talked to me in like years and then suddenly you want to be my friend again. So that's kind of like why I wanted to keep it separate. But obviously I knew that it wasn't like probably it wasn't possible forever. It was nice while it lasted. One thing I talked about on the second ever layer zero was with Eric Connor and we talked about this thing called Ethereum Brain where you wake up, you check your crypto Twitter DMs, you check your discords. You check your discords. like read the Ethereum-based article.

Starting point is 00:58:21 And it's really just like too much Ethereum just in your, in your brain, like toxic levels of Ethereum. Do you experience that as an NFT person? Because I mean, I personally definitely experienced that, but I'm much more focused on Ethereum itself where I think you are much more focused on NFT and T's and art. Do you experience this sort of just like toxic levels of crypto in your brain at times? Definitely. Sometimes I just wonder, you know, there's a whole echo chamber analogy, right?

Starting point is 00:58:48 I'm just like, am I in an echo chamber? And so that's also why I like to keep it separate too, because when I, as much as I love crypto, I don't want to be like spending 24 hours of my day thinking about it and talking about it. And then I think something that almost all crypto people are guilty of, but also because it's so interesting and fascinating as a topic is that when they get together, that's literally just all they talk about. And I think it's kind of alienating and excluding for people who are obviously like not part of that conversation. And so it's almost like I can take a breather from my life when I hang

Starting point is 00:59:19 out with my non-crypto friends and we can talk about things that are not like just crypto. Because yeah, it's just like refreshing to know that there's other things happening in this world that is not crypto. But as you're going more and more into the crypto world, are you still able to relate to your non-crypto friends as well as you once were? I definitely, this is a confession that I definitely feel like I have to make more of an effort to stay focused and be sort of like interested and engaged in the things that my non-crypto friends are talking about after being red-pilled. You know, before I spoke to this really good friend who's also in crypto, who was saying like,

Starting point is 00:59:56 he was like, oh, well, you know, it's just, it's nothing against my non-crypto friends, but I just think successful people are more interesting. And I feel like that's probably not the right way to put it. And I think the right way to put it is just that. Yeah, it's kind of a rough delivery. Yeah. I think the right way to put it is more that our interests are now, so sort of like embedded in this community and everything. And so that who we find interesting,

Starting point is 01:00:20 you know, it's literally the word interest, right? That's where our interests lie. And that's why we find them interesting. It's not because like they're more successful or whatever than like our regular friends. It's just our interests are more aligned with these people in terms of like, you know, so many senses, like a career sense, like passion sense, value sense. How's your, how's your social life changed getting and becoming a crypto person? I feel like I, I hang out with a lot more crypto people now, just because, you know, even like meeting people like you. It's just been so lovely and just to hang out. And you guys are actually just like all really cool people. You know what I mean? It's not like we're all like people who don't talk or

Starting point is 01:00:58 anything. Like we get along really well. We have a lot to talk about. So it's definitely changed in that way. It also changed and I'm sure you noticed this as well, like going to crypto events. A lot more people try to talk to you. I'm like not really sure if that's a good thing. actually. Because sometimes it just feels like you can't really, like, be yourself. You're sort of like constantly under a magnifying glass. But the nice thing is that only happens during conferences or like crypto events. And then so otherwise, like hanging out with my non-crypto friends hasn't really changed that much.

Starting point is 01:01:28 Other than I do feel like I have less time to do that now. Right. Has crypto made your imposter syndrome better or worse? I mean, I don't think it's gotten better. But I don't think it's gone worse either. I think it's about the same. Yeah. How do you have to like manage that?

Starting point is 01:01:46 Like just like, oh wait, no, this is my imposter syndrome coming out. I don't need to pay attention to this. It's something that you like, you try and like actively manage. I don't think so. I actually didn't even realize I had imposter syndrome until I talked to either like some people in my life. I remember the first time that I met Linda Schia in real life because I've been such a big fan of hers. Like, you know, she's just such an inspiration like female leader in the space. And so when I met up with her, you know, we were just having a chat.

Starting point is 01:02:13 And then I was just saying like, oh, you know, I hope to like be like you one day. And so she's like, what are you talking about? Look at your timeline. And like, I don't know. She's just like saying, only seems like you definitely have imposter syndrome. And I feel like that was the first time that was like really, really brought to my attention. Because I didn't think about it that way before. There's some artists and this isn't just true for artists.

Starting point is 01:02:33 But I was recently watching this like climbing documentary of this guy that would go out and climb all these different routes. and people that were paying attention to him as he would go across the world and climb this one route and like transcend this mountain, you know, like claim victory and then he would go across a different world and do the same thing. And people would say like, oh, it feels like he's building up to something. It feels like he's like working on just like some grand thing. Are you as an artist working up to something?

Starting point is 01:02:58 Like do you have some long-term grand like magnum opus like on the horizon? I think it's to become Picasso. I'm totally joking. Picasso of NFTs That was a terrible joke I don't even know if we can qualify it as a joke It's funny I actually feel like

Starting point is 01:03:16 There's a few quotes that I can pull One is from the Dark Night Where the joker says Oh it's like a dog chasing an ambulance But when you actually You're like constantly chasing it But when the dog actually catches up the ambulance You don't know what to do with it

Starting point is 01:03:31 Sometimes I feel it's kind of like that Where I'm always working towards something But it's hard to define What I'm actually working towards because I feel like every day since I've been in crypto or every day means maybe it's stretch, but every week, definitely. My life goes in a different direction. So when you're headed in a life, like that's like literally doing this all the time,

Starting point is 01:03:51 it's hard to see what's going to happen in like two or three years. So the most I can do is make the most of what's happening in the present. And when I'm given a task that I feel like is important, has a platform, for example, like the fortune cover, the uniswap video. All I know is to just put in my best work, do what I do best, which is to insert my creative vision to it, make it look cool, and have meaning and educational purposes to it. And at the same time, inspiring people to be more charitable is like a nice plus. If we were to fast forward like three, five years into the future, what would you want

Starting point is 01:04:32 people to look back on the legacy of people pleaser to be? How do you want that to be defined? It's really funny because I always feel like if I ever had a Wikipedia page, I would always imagine, I don't know, it's like when you read like Bill Gates's Wikipedia page or something, there's always like a giant chunk that's just like philanthropy. And then it just talks about like, and I feel like that would be the part that I'd be most excited to like read about. It's just like how has like people please are contributed or like. Yeah. And it doesn't even have to be donating money, but just in terms of like spreading awareness to things, the message that I create, you know. be cool to be like a crypto Greta Tonberg or something. I don't know. If you've ever like heard anything

Starting point is 01:05:13 that she says, by the way, it's so powerful that obviously I'm not and nowhere near as like eloquent or the messages that I feel like are not as important. But it's just to sort of like feel that power and just be so inspired by listening to people. I can totally see the value of why that kind of platform exists. What about the world of crypto bugs you the most? What do you really not like about crypto. What I really not like about crypto? Hmm. I think it's a combination of like, sometimes I feel like there's like this element of like gatekeeping almost. I don't really like that. I noticed that a lot, especially with maybe less so crypto, but NFTs in the beginning. It's like, oh, only like the best artists can get on these platforms and, you know, sort of like this

Starting point is 01:05:58 separation of like good artists and bad artists or like good artists and regular artists, which really what people mean is just like an artist that is able to sell their work for a lot. And, you know, and I feel like art is so subjective that including people like myself, it's just a combination of being in the right place at the right time. It's not because I'm more talented than other people. Yeah, I wish people would drink less of their own Kool-Aid and see that a lot of it is just luck, really. So the amount that your art sells for doesn't really reflect who you are or how great you are as a person. When it's time for you to log off your computer, close your laptop lid, and go do something in the real world, what do you like to do?

Starting point is 01:06:39 I mean, I like playing on my Nintendo Switch. That's like what I do when I lock. So I guess it's not really. Obviously, I enjoy going. It definitely counts. Yeah. You think that counts? Oh, 100%.

Starting point is 01:06:51 What kind of games do you like to play? I love playing Smash Brothers. And also recently went back to it since the pandemic, Animal Crossing. I feel like now it's just like, it's almost just like taking a little break for my brain, right? Like you don't really have to think. And Animal Crossing has all these like relaxing tunes in background. Definitely, I think during the pandemic, what really saved my life from going insane was Smash Brothers, Animal Crossing. I played Breath of the Wild.

Starting point is 01:07:15 I also played Pokemon, Sword and Shield. Those are like the ones I played, I think. Single player or multiplayer? Both. Yeah? Yeah. With multiplayer, is it with like your other friends or just people on the internet? Usually my friends.

Starting point is 01:07:28 It was like the only way for me to like be social during the pandemic would be like to visit my friend's islands on like Animal Crossing or like play smash together or something. When it comes to you and your friends playing smash together, are you competitive or are you just like playing? I'm not that competitive. So I much more enjoy playing, you know, like the mode where you're both on the same team and then you're just fighting like another team or something because I don't like to go against my friends. Also perhaps something to do with people pleaser that you don't want to make your friends upset. I'm not good enough to the point where I can make my friends upset. Now that COVID's over, what about non-screen-related activities? Well, I mean, I love going to parks like in the summer and just hanging out in a park.

Starting point is 01:08:13 I know that sounds really weird, but it's like totally a thing. Or just, I guess I go into bars and stuff because you normally am based in New York. And so what is there to do in New York City other than drink? Right. And eat. How did you end up in New York? Have you been there for a while? Yeah.

Starting point is 01:08:28 So I've been there for three years. And I originally moved there. I was working in London. And then I was living and working in London. This was like 2018. And then I had gone because of work, like I got this new job thing. And also because like they were giving me a better offer. And then my sister lives in New York.

Starting point is 01:08:47 She's been in New York for like 10 years. And my parents were like, you should just take the job in New York because you should be closer to your sister. And also when we visit you guys, we only have to make one trip. And I was like, okay. Yeah, which was like really sad to me at the time. I always say I had like one heartbreak in my life, which is when I had to leave London because I love London. I think it's like one of my favorite cities in the world.

Starting point is 01:09:05 So when I first moved to New York, I was like, I hate this. Like I want to go back to London. I don't want to be here. But now I've learned to love the city. New York is like a crypto. It's like the hub of the crypto world, right? When it's time for conference time, it's basically like it's in New York, right? But that didn't happen until this year.

Starting point is 01:09:22 Or at least like I wasn't participating in a crypto conference. is obviously before the pandemic. But like that was just like pure coincidence. Like I was like, I don't understand why New York suddenly became like the world's like crypto habits like so random. Was this, what's it like this before? The crypto conferences pre-COVID are not like the crypto conferences of today. They, you were, you did not miss much.

Starting point is 01:09:45 Cryptoculture was not instantiated as all as it is today. Like 2017, 2018 crypto culture. It was like the Moonboy Lambo, ICO culture craze that just like is. not something that anyone really enjoyed. And so like what crypto is as a community and who we are as a group of people has really been defined, you know, starting at the end of COVID, right? That's really like what crypto assets started really going up. The community started really defining itself. So we also did meet meeting each other in real life, you know, at the start of 2021-ish, especially the stuff, the meetups that are happening in New York. Like you are watching,

Starting point is 01:10:18 like, the birthplace of crypto culture. Wow. Okay. I was just like a humble, toddler prior to the pandemic, just like holding some ICO shit coins. What's it been like to be in New York during the rise of all of these like crypto meetups, crypto conferences, just, you know, social gatherings? I mean, it's both awesome and exhausting. I don't know. I've always been somebody who's like constantly lived in high stimulating cities for all my life, actually.

Starting point is 01:10:46 So, you know, I've lived in like Taipei, L.A. You know, it's not something that I'm not used to. But definitely it had never been at this capacity where like, especially during like a week like mainnet or something it's like there's a party every single night um and i would do this in college and so you know like it was definitely really really tired i don't know how some people do it they really just stay up till like 4 a m or something even during bitcoin miami i think my average bedtime was like probably around midnight to 2 a.m the latest like i'm just like an old person at heart like literally after the pleaser doubt party at main night

Starting point is 01:11:19 everybody was like okay we're going to go to the after party at this club or whatever i was like i'm going home by. Like, I literally just went home. We need to figure out the club of people that wants to be in bed by 2 a.m. and get all those people into the same hotel so we could all, like, you know, make this group decisions. Like, all right, the 2 a.m. bedtime club people, like, we're leaving.

Starting point is 01:11:40 It's time. And no one has to feel bad about leaving the group. Totally. Yeah, absolutely. What's the biggest lessons that you've learned? The biggest mistakes that you've made that you definitely know not to repeat anymore being an NFT artist or just existing in the world of crypto? Saying yes to things that you don't actually feel like doing.

Starting point is 01:12:00 That's still a muscle that I'm practicing today. My biggest regret is not saying no more often. Just because at the same time, you're creating false expectations for other people and you're also not living true to your own values of what you actually want to do all for what, like the fear of offending one person or something. And, you know, as it shows, like, people are not that harsh or, like, easily offended as I was so terribly afraid of. My biggest regret is definitely just not saying no enough because it's definitely something that eats away at me. Like, I feel like every time I try to please other people, I'm giving away a tiny piece of myself. And it's not

Starting point is 01:12:43 an infinite amount that I can give away, right? Do you think that the belief of people, uh, would have been upset if you said no came from a pre-crypto world or maybe that was just a preconceived notion that you had in your head that should never have been there in the first place. I think it just should have never been there in the first place. It probably definitely stems from some self-esteem issues like confidence issues where, oh, I want people to like me because if I don't please them, maybe they won't like me. Well, I think hopefully if the narrative that I keep on spinning about crypto culture is actually true and not just a fabrication that we are in a community of people where it's easier to find people that value you for you, the individual

Starting point is 01:13:22 and your contributions to the community at large? Yeah, hopefully. I think so. It certainly seems to be heading that way. What do you excited for with the future of crypto? What about the world of crypto makes you optimistic for the future? I think just things like positive some games and obviously, you know, the overly told narrative of removing the middle man, something like the industry that I was in before crypto, like, the effects, it suffers hugely from this, right? The movie industry is systemically so messed up in so many ways. Visual effects workers work so hard and are notoriously underpaid all the time. When Life of Pie won the Oscar for Best Visual Effects, ironically, that studio literally shut down to being

Starting point is 01:14:07 bankrupt and couldn't pay their workers. And so there's just so many things that are wrong and that crypto has made like so revolutionary, not just in terms of, of NFTs, but just to be able to have passive income for yourself, that's not just 17 cents coming into my bank account every month from interest. Like, how ridiculous is that? And this is a true story. I posted this on Twitter. I was like, look, I got 17 cents in interest. Like, this is, I don't know. It's just insane. Things like that. Transparency of the blockchain make me bullish, you know, like I said about how, why I think it's important for charity as well. But I do feel like, you know, sort of with crypto picking up steam like this, it is creating

Starting point is 01:14:51 sort of wealth inequality and speeding that up at a crazy rate, which is why I always go back to preaching we should share with others whenever we can because if things keep going the way they are, it's possible that there's like probably going to be like a civil war that's like brewing and it's not going to be pretty, I think, things that we should be mindful of is sharing with others. not being like, ha ha, we're so much like light years ahead of you. And then you're concerned that just the wealth disparity between crypto people and not crypto people just become so large that society just like flips the table and just like, and that can't happen.

Starting point is 01:15:26 Sure. I totally see that happening. One of the narratives that I tried and really like beat the drum on is like our crypto assets are actually going to go up in price, the more we spread them around. And so like if you own like 100 ether and then you give away half of it to, you know, strategically at the right times and the right moments to like a bunch of people, well, the value of the individual unit of ether might actually double as a result of that distribution. So you can actually keep the same amount of like real wealth while also spreading

Starting point is 01:15:54 the same amount around to more and more people. Yeah. And I definitely believe in that. So I think the fundamental values and the technology of crypto are revolutionary and, you know, in the right direction. But it is up to us, the users to also use it in a way that is creating a brighter future for us and not the dark sort of like bleak one that could also happen as a result. Right. We need to make sure that the doors to the citadel are open rather than rather than closed. Yes. People Pleaser, thank you so much for coming on Layer Zero and telling me your story. Thanks for hearing me out. If people want to see your work or follow you on Twitter, where should they go? They should go to People Pleaser 1, not People Pleaser. It's People Pleaser 1 on Twitter.

Starting point is 01:16:39 You can see it on my Zoom screen here too. That's the way it's spelled. on Instagram. It's just people pleaser. Awesome. We'll have all those things in the show notes. Thank you for coming on.

Bankless - pplpleasr | Layer Zero

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