Bankless - ROLLUP: BTC ETF Race Heats Up, zkSync drops the ZK Stack, OP going ZK?

Starting point is 00:00:00 Oh my God, they're large. 4.2 trillion. Trillion with a T, okay? And Black Rock is double that size. Oh, my God. It's like between them. They got all the assets. All the money.

Starting point is 00:00:14 But what does this do for our bags? That's the big question here. Bankless Nation, it is the last Friday of June, 23, and it's time for something special, something we release every single Friday. David, what time is? Oh, it's time for the Friday, bankless weekly rollout Ryan, where we cover the entire weekly news in crypto, which is always an ambitious endeavor. Yet we persevere nonetheless, fully caffeinated.

Starting point is 00:00:43 I had a coffee. I also had tea this morning, actually, as well. I had both. Oh, good for you. And I got to enjoy some of your coffee in your apartment, where you live in person for all the haters, for all the doubters out there. David, can you confirm for the people that Ryan Sean Adams is a physical real human being. You do have matter. There are atoms. There's still like room for you being an AI. But yes, Ryan and I were actually hanging out in person doing some co-working in the

Starting point is 00:01:15 bankless offices this last week, which was a pretty interesting. The bankless nation is going to see some side by side, same camera, same microphone podcast coming out on the YouTube. Oh, man. Very, very rare stuff. We should put them in as NFTs. It should be collectibles. But that's not all.

Starting point is 00:01:31 We've got some big topics of the week. Number one, Bitcoin hits a new all-time high. Wait, what? Did you rate that? Yeah. It didn't hit all-time high. What do we mean? Technically, it did.

Starting point is 00:01:41 Okay. Okay. You'll have to explain that one to me. What else we got? Staking also hits a new all-time high and formally passes supply on exchanges. We're going to get into the details around that. The Bitcoin ETF race turns up like two notches. It's getting real, really hot.

Starting point is 00:01:56 ZK Sync drops the ZK stack, and there's a new air-dive. drop targeting East Stakers. So check out your eligibility. That's me, David. That's you need staking. Yeah, you get your tokens? I hope so. I can't wait for you to tell me what they are. How to do that. We also have something really cool that we want to share. This is more than friends and sponsors, all right? This is a group, this is a conference that David and I support. This is a bankless plus Blockworks conference. It's called permissionless. This is the only conference I go to every single year. That'll be, this will be. This will be. This will be. be the next time you and I meet, I think, David. Tell us what is going on at permissionless?

Starting point is 00:02:35 What are the dates? Who's speaking? Why should bankless listeners be excited about this? I've been heads down working with the blockwork team to finalize this agenda. And man, it is, it's really coming together. Okay, so permissionless September 11th through 13th in Austin, Texas. While everyone is paper handing the absolute F out of the United States, permissionless is going at Texas. So we got Eric Forhees. We got representative. Is this even legal? Are we allowed to host a crypto conference in America? We are allowed. Crypto people are allowed to assemble. And so we are fulfilling our patriotic duty by assembling in Texas. We have Tom Emmer and Hester Purse on a panel together. That's going to be pretty sick. Hazu is coming in. Kevin O'Waki, Melton Demers,

Starting point is 00:03:19 Jim Bianco. It's going to be one half of a reunion of every single Bankless podcast episode and one half of a reunion of every single Blockworks podcast episode. I'm pretty stoked for this. We have, we're putting Solana, Cosmos, and Ethereum people all on a panel together to talk about, you know, differences. Coming together. And also fighting. We hollow from Polygon, Ben Jones from optimism, Van Spencer from Framework, Torgle from Scroll, so all the layer twos. Everyone who is fighting as a family will all be there at permissionless. Look at this lineup, dude. Anatoly, Raj, Santiago, Jesse Pollock, Donnie, Michael Anderson, Tarun, Lee Jin, Jim Bianco, I already said his name, but he's worth saying it twice. Man, there's, it's quite the lineup. It's quite the lineup.

Starting point is 00:04:06 Very exciting. So what should folks do if they want to get a ticket, David? Oh, if you are a bankless citizen, you should definitely use your code to get 30% off. You can find that code in the Discord or in the bankless perks page. There's also a hackathon this year. So first time we're doing this, hackathon this year for, and there's also a dev track as well because we're really expanding the F out of permission list this year. So link in the show notes to get your ticket. If you subscribe to bankless, you get 30% off, which is more than pays for your ticket. So that's what the rational economic agent would do there.

Starting point is 00:04:35 Hmm. Do we have any of those? I don't know if I don't know if we'll find out. We'll find out. No, I have faith in the bankless nation. David, let's get to markets, though. What's Bitcoin doing? You told me this was all-time high.

Starting point is 00:04:47 I feel tricked. Yeah, it's not in dollars, but it is an all-time high. It is at an all-time high. Okay. Well, what price are you at this week? Bitcoin started the week at $30,000, ending the week at $30,500. You know, nice and healthy. 3-0.

Starting point is 00:05:03 You really got to appreciate that. 3-0. Above 30-K, I'm feeling great. Yeah, above 30K is, I'm just feeling just fine. I'm happy with that. Of course, we were watching this on the Cracken charts play out, Cracken Pro. Easy enough for me to use it. How about Ether this week?

Starting point is 00:05:19 We up? We down a little bit. Ether started the week at 1885, ending the week at 1850 down a percent and a half. So Bitcoin up a percent and ether down a percent and a half. Hanging on the 1800s, huh? Yeah. The Victorian age. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:05:32 Civil War era, 1850s, 1860s, you know. I don't know. Every time Ether goes through the 1900s, I'm like, oh, my birthday. Birthday year. All right. Let's do Bitcoin, Eth, on the ratio. We don't have to do that one. No?

Starting point is 00:05:50 Where we can't skip it. It's down. Weeks where you want to skip it are the weeks that they're more. Oh, that is a dead line that goes down into the right. Yeah, I'm scrolling out. It's still down. Yeah, it still goes down. When does it at all?

Starting point is 00:06:02 Has it gone ever gone up? Yes, it has gone up. How about on the year? Let's scroll at least to there. Okay, I'm going to get a... On the year, it's just been flat ever since even like the start of the last bull market. So it's between 0.06 and like 0.08. All right.

Starting point is 00:06:17 But yeah, definitely on the lower side of the ratio. Bitcoin, gaming. gaining some steam this week. Maybe that's why you told me it was at an all-time high. And we'll find out more about that, I think. But before we get there, total crypto market cap is that looking at on the week? We are coming in at $1.2 trillion. So healthy. Okay, the numbers in my head are Bitcoin over 30K, feeling good. ETH price over 2K, I'm feeling good. It's not there yet, but I'd feel good if that was the case. Crypto market cap over $1 trillion, I'm still feeling good. So overall, I mean, this bear market has been hard, I guess, but I don't know. At $1 trillion market cap,

Starting point is 00:06:56 how hard has it actually been? Yeah, that's the topic of discussion, I think. And we'll get into this and further into the market section. First off, Bitcoin, new all-time high, $7.6 million Argentine pesos. So new Bitcoin all-time high for the country of Argentina for the fiat currency of Argentina. Reminder, all fiat currencies go to zero, some just go faster than others. So, yeah. Do you feel rugged, bankless listener? David told us all-time high.

Starting point is 00:07:23 Now are you saying it's in Argentinian pesos. Hey, it depends on your frame of reference, my man. Like, not only is that a little bit of an all-time high, that has screamed past the all-time high. This is just a good reminder of inflation and fiat currencies are bad. And the strength of the U.S. dollar is a privilege. and all other fiat currencies are weaker than the dollar. And we should on the dollar all the time. Yeah, it is. And the only reason the dollar looks somewhat good at like, you know, five to 10 percent inflation rate is because everything is like a lot of other assets are so much

Starting point is 00:07:59 worse. A lot of other fiat currencies are so much worse. That's why the dollar looks good sometimes. This is interesting, though. Argentine Congress approves IMF debt deal that would discourage crypto usage. So this is what I worry about when fiat-based countries, which is all of them, start to feel under threat from crypto, what do they do? When they start to bleed relative to other fiats, of course, but relative to crypto assets, what do they do? We haven't yet seen this kind of reaction in the U.S. Because I don't think we've bled hard enough.

Starting point is 00:08:34 But this is interesting, discouraging crypto use in Argentina. That seems like a big step. What do you think about this? The quote from the article that stands out to me, to further safeguard financial stability, we are taking important steps to discourage the use of cryptocurrencies with a view to prevent money laundering, informality, and disintermediation.

Starting point is 00:08:54 They're trying to prevent disintermediation. I would like to encourage disintermediation. That's what I'm here. They're trying to prevent informality. What does that even mean? I don't know. To me, you sound like a money laundering right now. You're talking like a money launderer.

Starting point is 00:09:09 I'm also a terrorist. Someone's going to clip that out of context. That's going to be fantastic. Yeah, preventing money laundering. That's the reason they'll give. It has nothing, of course, to do with the inflation of the peso in our country. I just, I look at this and I'm kind of like, yeah, coming to a fiat economy near you. Watch out for this kind of thing, right?

Starting point is 00:09:31 It's going to us. Yeah. Okay. This is interesting from Charlie. Bitcoin returns since 2010. This is on the yearly. year start, year end. What are we looking at in this table? It's just a nice reminder of what Bitcoin does every single year, which is always, the answer

Starting point is 00:09:45 to that is always large. Either red or green. 2010, 9,900 percent, 2011, 1,400 percent, 2012, 186 percent, 2013, 5,500 percent. And then 2014, negative 58 percent. And like, negative 58 percent, that cuts all previous numbers, you know, by half, right? And then 35 percent, 1225 percent, 1,300 percent. And then 2018 negative 73%. So, 2022, we had negative 65%. 2023 year to date, 85% in the green for Bitcoin. And so it's just like also the regularity of the red years. Look at it, David, this is a pat.

Starting point is 00:10:24 Are you seeing the pattern here? Bankless list. Three greens and a red. Three greens and yet. 2010 doesn't count. No, 2010. Three greens and a red. So we had red in 2022, year to date, 2023, strongly in the green.

Starting point is 00:10:38 I think we get two more greens and then we get a red. Are you serious? 24 is green. Perhaps very green. 25 is very green. 2026 is in the red. Is this TA, sir? Are we traders now?

Starting point is 00:10:51 I look forward to once again not selling in 2025 and then having this clipped out. And I said like, oh, I was going to say I should sell in 2025. I totally think this is the base case for how it plays out again. Yeah. You know, and what this says is since Bitcoin has been in existence, it's only been unprofitable. You bought it at the beginning of the year. Three years.

Starting point is 00:11:14 Out of like the 12, 13 plus years, it's been in existence. Right. There's three years. It's been a bad, bad deal. Let me tell you, the negative 60%, the 1,300% trump those. Yeah, I'd say so over time. It's appreciated. I made this in Photoshop just before we started recording.

Starting point is 00:11:33 The red part of this graph, which is the Bitcoin chart. That is the only part of the chart that is in the red. That is only the part. That's a lot of green. So you're saying if you bought from about 2021 to halfway through 2022, you're in the red. But if you bought any time before that, you are still in the money on your Bitcoin purchase.

Starting point is 00:11:56 And also anytime between now and halfway through 2022. So this is what I'm calling Trottinger's Market. So like where are we in the bull market, bear market cycle? are we just closing the 2022 gap? 2022 was just too bad, too much blood that we just mean reverted, or are we at the beginning stages of a bull market? So if you go back to like, we can't do this because I didn't include it in the screenshot, but like if you go back and look at the 2017 bull market, it started in 2015.

Starting point is 00:12:25 It started like that was when the up-only markets began. But in 2015, you felt like you were in a bear market. It starts the year after the red year. Right. Yes. And so right now we're in Shorteners Market. Are we just recovering from the bear or are we at the start of the bull? It's kind of the same thing, but you don't really know where you are and that feels the same.

Starting point is 00:12:44 It does feel the same, but I feel like I know where I am. You know what I mean? Like, just like, it's just, it's probably just going to play out the same way it always does. Three greens and a red. This is pretty cool. Staked ETH now exceeds ETH on centralized exchanges. We're going bankless, fam. What's this chart?

Starting point is 00:13:03 This chart, we showed this last week. maybe even the week before, but these lines have touched. What are the lines? One line, the top line, which is now the bottom line, is ether on centralized exchanges. Loser line. The winner line is the bottom line, which is now the top line,

Starting point is 00:13:17 is ether being staked. So more staked than on exchanges. Is this the flippinging, sir? This is a flippening. Okay, not the flippening. The flippinging before the flippening. Of course, I'm still predicting. 20 million ether is currently staked with a 2.9 million ether of cued

Starting point is 00:13:34 ether to stake. Wow. That's a lot of eaths waiting outside the club. 15% of all staked ether is in the queue. That's insane. It just keeps growing. They just keeps staking. When are they going to stop staking, David? When are they going to stop staking?

Starting point is 00:13:50 What is this? It's from Poop Man. This is a, it looks like a fantastic, very credible account here. Poop Man, what's he got for us? Here's just talking about the growth of eth staking. It has slowed down in the last 30 days, but that's after the acceleration of

Starting point is 00:14:04 post-merge. He says, I'm very optimistic about the LSD market. He has checked Dune analytics and found some interesting stats. The fastest growing Swell network with 58% growth and followed by Figment with 57% growth. And then the largest outflows of ether is Wobie and BitStamp to centralized exchanges. He follows and says, Swell means to be the staking superstar out of the bear market because it's successful Pearl incentive campaign. This is like the AirDrop teasing campaign. Meanwhile, centralized exchanges such as Coinbase and Huobi are getting a downturn likely due to regulatory issues. So this is just talking about some data out of the Sakingas a service industry.

Starting point is 00:14:39 That's said. Well, has a lot of growth, but although it is still very small. So, like, it's got like 28,000, it's still a sliver of overall East state. Like, it's one of these tiny slivers over here, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't even know where it is.

Starting point is 00:14:55 But it's certainly not the 31% of Lido. Yeah. Or the still the 9.5%. But it is good. It is great to see that competition entering the market. David, what do we have coming up next? Coming up next, ZK Sync releases the ZK stack and why it's got me all hot and bothered.

Starting point is 00:15:14 Boy, do I love biomimicry systems. The ETF War heats the absolute F up. Fidelity, Ark Invest, Vanek, all enter the race. But ARC jumps to first in line with this one simple trick. How did they do it? What? How did they do it? Yeah. So all of that and more coming up as soon as we talk to some of these,

Starting point is 00:15:33 fantastic sponsors that make this show possible, especially Cracken, the place that we see all these beautiful charts every time we go through the numbers on the YouTube. If you do not have a Cracken account, consider clicking the link in the show notes while you listen to us talk about it right now. Cracken Pro has easily become the best crypto trading platform in the industry. The place I use to check the charts and the crypto prices, even when I'm not looking to place a trade. On Cracken Pro, you'll have access to advanced charting tools, real-time market data, and lightning fast trade execution, all inside their spiffy new modular interface. Cracken's new customizable modular layout lets you tailor your trading experience to suit your needs.

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Starting point is 00:16:41 but it also reduces gas fee volatility, providing a more stable foundation for Mantle's applications. The Mantle treasury is one of the biggest Dow-owned treasuries, which is seeding an ecosystem of projects from all around the Web3 space for Mantle. Mantle already has sub-communities from around Web3 onboarded, like Game 7 for Web3 Gaming and ByBit for TV8. for TVL and liquidity and onramps. So if you want to build on the Mantle network, Mantle is offering a grants program

Starting point is 00:17:05 that provides milestone-based funding to promising projects that help expand, secure, and decentralize Mantle. If you want to get started working with the first Dow-ledd layer-2 ecosystem, check out Mantle at mantle. And follow them on Twitter at ZeroX Mantle. A big release from ZK Sync this week. David, what are we looking at?

Starting point is 00:17:22 ZKSync releases the ZK stack, a modular framework for building sovereign ZK-powered hyperchains based on ZK Synx open source code. So ZKStack sounds a little bit like OP Stack. If you're using the OP stack as a frame of reference, you're off to a great start. What's a stack? What do they call them stacks?

Starting point is 00:17:39 Yeah, it's like a tech stack. It's like a technology stack. And so the ZK Stack is what does ZKSink do? ZKSink does zero knowledge, cryptography, but as a layer two. The one thing that they really do is their ZK circuit. What is ZK sync? They make the ZK circuit.

Starting point is 00:17:57 everything else about ZK Sync is kind of a commodity. They settle to Ethereum. They use Ethereum data. They use other parts, other components that could produce a layer two. The rest of what that makes up the ZK Sync layer 2, ZK Sync era, is more or less a commodity. They make the ZK Circuit. So what is the ZK Stack? It is ZK Synx's ZK Circuit as a framework where you can take in the rest of the components of what makes a layer two and build your own layer two.

Starting point is 00:18:26 Build your own chain, fam. Build a ZK workshop is what it is. And so the ZK stack allows teams to build their custom hyperchain, which is ZK syncs fractal scaling branding, a fully trustless, cheap, asynchronous connectivity to the rest of the hyperchain ecosystem. Now this is the secret sauce that the ZK element has that the optimistic roll-ups worlds do not have.

Starting point is 00:18:48 ZK circuits, chains that all use the ZK circuits, have a crazy amount of composability right out of the gate because that is the magic of ZK. And so ZK chains, like ZK chain A that uses the same circuit as ZK chain B have a ton of composability, tailwinds and benefits. Will it be like you have the asset on the same chain? Will it be that easy to move from chain to chain? And also, if I can fit two questions in one here.

Starting point is 00:19:16 Oh, boy. Is this a layer three? That's what we're basically talking about here. Both answers are kind of maybe yes. So to take the simple one first, is this a layer three? It can be a layer three. is a open framework for deploying chains. You want to deploy layer two?

Starting point is 00:19:31 You want to deploy a layer three. You want to deploy a layer N. You want to deploy a chain between chains. And fractal hyper-scaling. Think of it like just a root system of chains. Like it starts to, layer three is a very like number three. Like it's not so canonical. It's more like a tree branch.

Starting point is 00:19:47 Tree branch, exactly. Root system. Yeah. Brunch of trees. Yeah. What was the first question in your head? I don't know I can do one question at time. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:19:54 Well, the first question was, you know, David, I can't remember. It's been one of those weeks, my friend. Yes, it definitely has. Okay, so moving on, maybe I'll think of it. ZK. ZK. Sack, the lightweight sequencer with low latency of sequencing. That's the ZK element.

Starting point is 00:20:11 Apps that can interact without the trust assumption of bridge. Bridges also the ZK element. Yeah? Yeah. I was asking you if the experience will be like, I have my assets on the same chain. What the experience is like from going from like one ZK enabled chain on the ZK stack to another.

Starting point is 00:20:29 Right. The answer is like kind of it depends. The easy answer is yes. The harder answer is like yes and there takes a bunch of additional like supporting infrastructure and development and abstraction to get to that point. But the answer is that we are moving there and this is a very big step towards moving there. There's other things like we need ether scan to allow for when you like rather than you don't

Starting point is 00:20:53 you have RB scan and Opti scan and there's for every single like ecosystem. and there's its own version of EtherScan. We need optimizations and scaffolding like EtherScan to be able to work with networks of chains. And they can do that, but they need to do that. Well, I don't need a bridge. You do not need a bridge. In the ZK world, you do not need a bridge.

Starting point is 00:21:08 Same thing with the Optimism super chain, but that even has even further challenges because they don't have the ZK element, but there is a part in this rollup that talks about the ZK world of the optimistic chains. Anyways. And, okay, a closed private chain with connectivity to the ecosystem.

Starting point is 00:21:23 That just means, hey, deploy a ZK chain. You're connected to the ZK.-Sink hyperchains. but it's still your chain with a native way, a way to issue a native token as that token's base. So that is all of what I am excited about. This is my tweet, the ZK Stacks shall inherit the internet. What do I mean by this? Okay, so this is why both OP stacks and ZK Stacks

Starting point is 00:21:42 just like get me going. It's because these systems, they're meant to be forked. They're like, both optimism and ZK Sync are saying, fork the absolute F out of us. Deploy your chains. Deploy more chains, more chains everywhere, just use the same standard, Because if you use the same standard,

Starting point is 00:21:57 then the network effects around these standards grow. Optimism wants you to use their optimistic tech stack standard called the OP stack. ZK Sync wants you to use their ZK Tech Stack standard called the ZK stack. And that's what you get. They got the ZK and the OP, the optimism. And so the idea is that they are just optimizing

Starting point is 00:22:14 for what they are doing best. And then they're letting the rest of the internet express their modules, their desires for how they want their chain to be expressed. And so this allows these. ZK chains or OP stack chains to find corners of the internet because they're so customizable that chain deployers can make them fit into whatever corner of the internet that they want to go. So the whole line of like the ZK stack shall inherit the internet is saying that like we're going

Starting point is 00:22:41 to, this is the scaffolding that's needed in order to propagate chains so that we can take the internet and put it on Ethereum. There's an entire episode on this. Yes. Is it now? Yes. Oh, I did a show an episode on this with Alex Gloucals. and Anthony Rose from ZK Sync talking all about this.

Starting point is 00:23:00 And so we talk a lot about the nature of ZK as a technology, just like the principles and the values that ZK Tech as a technology embody. And then we go into the ZK Stack, which is how those values get scaled out to this scale of the internet. One thing I would add to all of this is I know we're talking about some releases from ZKSync and also optimism next this week. Polygon, Arbchum, they have their own versions of this. as well. I mean, all of these large layer two ecosystems are moving to a world where it's very easy

Starting point is 00:23:31 to spin up your own chain. They all have slightly different approaches towards getting there, and it's very, very exciting to see. So why don't you tell us about optimism? What are they doing this week? The cool thing about what this is, Ryan, this week, is that this actually is an optimism. This is O of 1 Labs, who I don't actually know the name of that, but I think they're associated with the Mina protocol, hence this announcement. They say, O of 1 Labs is excited to submit a proposal to optimism for the application of our zero-knowledge proof stack to OP stack fraud proofs. This application is built on the groundbreaking MIPS ZKVM were building as part of the MENA Protocol Roadmap.

Starting point is 00:24:07 Why is this cool? We've created kimchi, our plonkish proving system, this is cryptography words, to help bring ZKPs to the Web 3 and Web 2 worlds. And so basically, the OP stack is like a bunch of modules. Every chain is a module for the Optimism super chain. and OP Labs is submitting their version of fault proofs into the world of optimism. And so this is like a path forward for the OP stack to gain a ZK module inside of the OP superchain world. Does that make sense?

Starting point is 00:24:41 It does. I think. So does this mean an OP chain could potentially be a ZK, EVM, OP chain? So yes. An OP chain can accept. a ZK module and then part of the, this is the cool thing, part of the super chain, all of the hyperchains that makes up the optimism super chain, most are going to be optimistic roll-ups. Some can be ZK roll-ups, and it can all be part of the optimistic super chain. Technically, this is a very hard thing to

Starting point is 00:25:12 parse apart, and the optimism team knows this, and they all understand, are taking on the challenges of, like, how do we make a composable super chain, like, head-on. Ben Jones from Optimism has this thing that he's working on to help define how does the super chain grow? But man, does it feel like the layer two summer, the layers two ecosystems just on fire right now? Yeah, it's really cool. It looks like optimism as well as renamed optimism to OP main net, which is sort of interesting. This main net area for all of these OP chains. It's pretty cool.

Starting point is 00:25:41 I guess one takeaway from all of this is I feel like this time, the next bull market, we will have all of the block space we need. Oh, yeah. Right? We have so much block space. And if we need more, it's easy to get more now. It's so easy to get more. Now, making that composable, making that private,

Starting point is 00:26:00 making the UX good, still some issues, of course. But we got the block space, right? So low gas fee environments is going to be the case. Now, I feel like we need the apps. Yes. Just reminds me a little bit. No one's building apps. Everyone is building chains.

Starting point is 00:26:16 No one is building ass. It's like feast or famine here. Last time during the bull run, we had all the apps. We didn't have enough blocks space. Now we have all the block space. We don't have enough apps. But, you know. Someone will someone please build an app?

Starting point is 00:26:30 Consume some block space. I mean, but, okay, zoom out. This is kind of what happened with the internet, right? Yeah. Yeah. Basically, you had kind of the early internet and we're like, we need more bandwidth, bandwidth, bandwidth, bandwidth. Billions and hundreds of billions of dollars went into bandwidth investment.

Starting point is 00:26:46 Internet infrastructure investment. Then what happened? Dot com bust. All the money kind of evaporated. And we're like, now we have. have all of this bandwidth, but we don't have the apps for the internet, right? Guess what happened? The apps came because there was high bandwidth environment. We got things like YouTube, for instance, video streaming, like Netflix online. We got all of the high bandwidth apps after that. So I think

Starting point is 00:27:08 the builders will catch up. They're taking notice. The apps will come, David, never fear. It is worth just taking a step back and just reflecting, man, like, we do not know what's coming next. but hey, at least we have the bandwidth to support the really, really crazy ideas next bull market. Okay. Disclosure, disclosures, both Ryan and I are advisors to both optimism and ZK Sync. I'm a big fan of tech stacks. I'm a big fan of biomimicry. There's a video if you want to learn more about just the nature of tech stacks, the OP stack video on YouTube from bankless. Just type in OP stack bankless. It's the only video on YouTube that talks about the OP stack. Oh, really? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:27:45 You got that market corner, David? Yeah, the 4,000 people have watched it. Hey, but you can find around the opportunity. Yeah, so advisors to both optimism and ZK Sync. We also talked about Swell earlier. We also are angel investors into Swell as well. Okay. We like the staking. We like the layer twos.

Starting point is 00:28:00 We like Theroy. We like Staking. We like Layer 2s. We like Ethereum. All right, David. I'm feeling bold. It's the bear market. What do I got to lose, huh?

Starting point is 00:28:06 Down bad already. Make a prediction. I think this is the year of the Bitcoin ETF. Spot Bitcoin ETF. Approval. Approval. Approval. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:28:16 Yeah. Okay. I have, this is just me going out on the limb here. Okay. I have no knowledge of this. But just putting some things together, I feel like politically, Gensler has to approve a Bitcoin ETF. This is his kind of backpedaling moment to prove he is a generous God and he's not the unreasonable tyrant that the finance and crypto industry paints him as. So he'll give us this, this gift, the gift of Gensler, and he'll approve an ETF. Also, some of his buddies have been submitting lately. I know you guys mentioned BlackRock,

Starting point is 00:28:53 right? And now here we have Fidelity, preparing to submit a Bitcoin ETF. Fidelity knows what's up. And they are doing the Black Rock play as well. What's the news here? Fidelity is getting ready to submit their own spot Bitcoin ETF. So Fidelity, like, I don't know how big it is, but it's large, joining the queue to get a Bitcoin ETF. Yes, it's real big. This is also not Fidelity's first attempt. In 2021, they filed. It was denied by the SEC. And so, like, right after BlackRock, Fidelity joins the queue.

Starting point is 00:29:26 And then interestingly, Ark, which Ark invest, Kathy Wood, they also have submitted a Bitcoin ETF request. They haven't gotten theirs, there's denied. Their is just sitting in purgatory limbo. But they, here's what's interesting. And here's how they are getting to the front of the queue and why, like, Ark might win this thing. At least like when this thing is like they might get approved first because they're,

Starting point is 00:29:48 they had their spot Bitcoin ETF files paperwork filed first. And they've amended their file work, their 19B slash four for whatever that is for a spot Bitcoin ETF to include a surveillance sharing agreement with the SEC, which is the words that came from the Black Rock Bitcoin ETF. Someone gave them a heads up that they need this verbiage, I think. Well, well, maybe someone gave them a heads up. maybe they're just saying, hey, Black Rock is going to get approved. And so let's make sure that if they get approved, we also get approved and copy and paste their filing and make it look like our viling.

Starting point is 00:30:23 What is a surveillance sharing agreement? It involves the sharing information about market trading activity, clearing activity, and customer identification to protect against the possibility of market manipulation. If this is the thing that forces Gary Gensler's hand to approve the BlackRock ETF, or, yeah, ETF, then therefore, ARC will get theirs approved. But ARC is still filed. And so Arc will get approved first. And so that's the gambit that Arc is making. Not just Arc. Van Eck has also filed, refiled for a spot Bitcoin ETF last week, which also includes

Starting point is 00:30:53 the intent to add the surveillance sharing agreement. So we have three large trad players submitting all of the same spot Bitcoin ETF file paperwork. Yeah. And this assumption is like Gary Gensler is either corrupt or going to approve it. Well, look. He's definitely correct. Vanek is pretty large, right? 80 billion.

Starting point is 00:31:15 Of course, Kathy Wood, ArkInvest is pretty large. You asked about fidelity earlier. Guess what they are, David? Large. Oh, my God, they're large. 4.2 trillion. Trillion with a T, okay? And Black Rock is double that size.

Starting point is 00:31:33 Oh, my God. It's like between them. They got all the assets in the U.S. They have all the money. Right? Like, this is a tremendous amount of tradify Gary's buddies pressure that is raining down on him. And you know, Gary's posture has been, oh, yeah, Bitcoin. It's the only commodity there.

Starting point is 00:31:52 He hasn't been willing to extend that to any other asset. Oh, yeah. I forgot that he doesn't hate Bitcoin. There you go. That's what I'm just putting together. And that's why I'm making that prediction. But what does this do for our banks? That's the big question here.

Starting point is 00:32:07 What does this do for the price? Does an ETF matter? Of course, I don't get super excited about it because it's not bankless. And yet, and yet, it is a way to onboard retail and increase the liquidity of Bitcoin the asset. So there are some good things about this. What are we looking at from Meltem? And this is Meltem DeMeres, who I think is probably one of the most perfect people to really

Starting point is 00:32:28 analyze some of this stuff. So the conversation is Bitcoin ETFs all over the place. These are pipes. We need money to actually flow through these pipes. We can build the pipes, but we need money to flow through them in order to materially impact the price of Bitcoin. So Meltem just puts on our analyst hat and asks, where is that money going to come from? And so she goes, so financial institutions are building products and services to access Bitcoin. But where will the inflows come from?

Starting point is 00:32:55 In my opinion, the biggest untapped market for Bitcoin is taxed advantage retirement accounts. The United States retirement market is $35 trillion and has doubled in the last decade. And so we have two circles here. We have the total U.S. retirement A.U.M. $35 trillion. And then we have the amount that's allocated to crypto, which is between $500 million and $1 billion. To say that these are two circles,

Starting point is 00:33:19 doesn't do it as justice. The other is a speck. One is taking up half the page, and the other one is a period that is in the middle of the page. It looks like the sun versus the Earth. Yeah. If you've ever seen this, really life size.

Starting point is 00:33:33 So a lot of room for growth here is what that means. And that could be a positive inflow into Bitcoin. Maybe that's why, David, Bitcoin price has been bumpy a little bit this week. It's bumpy because the traders are buying it because they think this is going to happen. But this is going to take a while. At least that's my hope. Melton, this is a thread. So we are just reading the first tweet of this thread.

Starting point is 00:33:52 If you want to read further analysis from Meltem, there's a link in the show notes to go access this treat. But coming up next, we're going to talk about micro strategy, magically discovering hundreds of million dollars. And then they turn it into Bitcoin, of course. There's some Izuki drama, which I don't know if you care about, Ryan. I don't really care about it either. I care deeply. Okay, well, we're talking about it. Finance claps back versus the SEC and then air drop season for Ethereum Stakers. Man, these are some fun words.

Starting point is 00:34:17 All of this and more. But first, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible, especially MetaMas's brand new, spiffy portfolio feature. We all love Metamask, and now it can tell you everything about all of the things that you have in your MetaMask wall. We're going to go hear from them right now. Metamask has something new. Introducing Metamask portfolio.

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Starting point is 00:36:04 David. What's Zuzalu? Zuzalu is a place of... Zuzalu, yeah. After weeks, it took me a while to get Zuzalu, correct? Well, there's actually... That's up for debate. There's no consensus on how you...

Starting point is 00:36:19 Zuzalu or Zuzaloo. Yes. Well, there's no debate on that one. Okay. Any more, there's a shelling point, though. What's the shelling point around Zuzalu? What I say, right? Zuzalu, yeah.

Starting point is 00:36:30 Or Zuzalu. There's no, there's, it's one of these two shelling points. Yeah. Okay. You remember when the background of my podcast was not my home in Brooklyn and it was instead this kind of sterile looking apartment? Boy, do I ever? Internet connections. Lots of fun. So I was in Montenegro for two months at this thing called Zuzalu. And if you scroll down, you'll start to get a little bit of a taste of this. It's a blog post on bank lists, right? Yes. So this, this is a blog post on bank list. If you want to know and learn about everything I'm doing, I was doing at Zuzalo and what Zuzalo is, this blog post is for you. I like this line that I wrote.

Starting point is 00:37:03 Vitalik from Ethereum, Emad from stable diffusion, and Grimes from Grimes, all walk on a stage together. It's from Grimes. So Grimes, the artist, also has been previously associated with Elon. Yes, correct. And they all walk on a stage together. And no, this is not a punchline. This was Zuzalu. So this was the AI Crypto Week at Zuzalu, of which there were eight weeks.

Starting point is 00:37:22 There was longevity week. There was synthetic biology week. There was ZK Cryptography Week. There was Public Goods Week, Network States, and Coordinations. And so this was this social experiment of Zuzalo, like a two-month-long pop-up temporary community where a bunch of frontier technologies came together. Sounds like a cult, David. Yeah, they called us a cult. They called us a cult.

Starting point is 00:37:44 Like, we didn't hate that. We thought it was funny. I recorded 18 interviews while I was there. So not only am I telling you about it in this article about what Zuzalo was, but I'm showing you with like 10 plus hours of content and just my experience. Is this you on stage, man? I love this posture. Yeah, uh-huh. You're energized, huh, when you're talking to person.

Starting point is 00:38:05 Well, so, okay, this was me presenting Web3 to the Montenegrin government officials. And so I had a 10-minute talk. They say, like 10 minutes, and I was elected to do the Web 3, Y Web 3 pitch. And right before my talk, I was like, okay, you no longer have 10 minutes. You have three minutes. And I'm like, nice. And so I just started yelling, dude. In squat stance.

Starting point is 00:38:25 In squat stance, yeah. And so there was something like murmuring about what the hell are all these like Ethereum people and other industry people all doing at Zuzalu or this place from Montenegro. There was like this social contract of like, hey, we're going to all be heads down and focus on Zuzalo and then we'll broadcast about it. Now we're broadcasting about it. And so all of my content, all the talks are now out. You can read about Zuzalo in this blog post. It's at bankless.com. And yes. Look, guys, let me let me just tell you the gift that David has just given us. So if you can't go all the way to Montenegro or you weren't invited or whatever,

Starting point is 00:39:00 it was too much, David is giving a sneak peek to, I think, some of the best people, best speakers, the best ideas, the best projects that came there. And there's like a series of videos. So in this post alone, David said you recorded 18. 18. This post alone, there's eight of them. Okay. The first one's with Vitalik. No, there's all 18. They're combined into the eight episodes. So 18, so there's eight themes, 18 episodes consolidated into eight episodes. Each one of these is like almost two hours long. This is a gift. This is a gift. So go

Starting point is 00:39:30 click the link to show notes. If you want some extra bankless content, if you want some frontier tech content, this is the place to get it. I can't wait to dive into these. Is there one? I'm going to start with the Vitalik one, but what's your favorite after that? Oh God, there's a handful. So I have my favorites in each of one. Prima

Starting point is 00:39:46 Varete-Filippi and her definition of Cordy Nations, I thought was really good. Drew Enzi, the father of modern biology in synthetic biology. He's in that one. I was walking with Drew. He's like this older gentleman Stanford professor. And he was like, I've never really done a podcast, but I've always wanted to. This one guy, Lex, emailed me and about doing a podcast, but he wanted me to fly out to Austin. So I didn't respond. And I'm like, bro, you didn't respond to Lex Friedman, man. That's hilarious. Anyways, I got him on an interview. And so the idea here, and this is the Zuzalo pitch.

Starting point is 00:40:22 How were these technologies selected? All of these technologies are going to fundamentally change the future. They're going to change society. Like longevity is going to happen. People are going to have the choice to live forever. Synthetic biology, we're going to be able to grow our materials organically. That's going to change the world. All of these are technological tidal waves that are going to impact your life bankless listener.

Starting point is 00:40:44 So all of this Zuzalu content is for you to front run the opportunity, for you to be ready for that tidal wave that is inevitably coming. I feel like we're in the middle of the AI tidal wave. In the future, synthetic biology will hit us as a society. I feel like one of these big ones hits like every five years. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh-huh. So get ready.

Starting point is 00:41:03 So this is just about understanding the technological tectonic shifts that are all being built. And so with all of these contents, you'll be prepared. You don't have to enjoy every single one. You can pick and choose your flavor. It's a choose your own adventure. But they are at your disposal. David, is it air drop season? It is air drop season.

Starting point is 00:41:20 We tease that a little bit. It's always our job. We're proud to present the diva Dow. The DIVADAR, the Diva Dow is being formed with an initial distribution to 15,000 unique Ethereum stakers and ecosystem participants.

Starting point is 00:41:33 This is an ETH staking protocol. Pretty high in the decentralization spectrum. What's going on here? Yeah, very strong commitments to Ethereum values, Ethereum, the Ethereum protocol. They want it to be built as a public good. They want it to be built as immutable as possible. One of the thing that excites me about

Starting point is 00:41:51 DIVA is their commitment towards the DVT ecosystem, decentralized validator technology, a.k.a squad staking. And they've been working with people like the Ethereum Staker group and others as well. The Airdrop has gone to, of course, Diva OG contributors. Ethereum Stakers from ETH staker, Rocket Pool, S.SV, Lido, and Dapnode, community members from NOS, UNOS, ENSW, AVE, Maker, Aragon, and other DALs, and then the Ethereum staking, Dev, and ecosystem contributors.

Starting point is 00:42:18 15,000 addresses are eligible. You can check your address at Earnifyeernei.fi.fi. Can go and plug in your address because we've got this Merkel tree built into Earnify. So it will tell you. And if you're already a member subscriber to Earnify, you already have your Ethereum address there. You probably already got an email address saying, hey, you have the new Diva AirDrop.

Starting point is 00:42:40 And so that is in your inbox. If you are a Irnify subscriber, if you are not, you should 100% sign up. There is a link in the show notes. I listened to the diva Twitter space with Superfiz this morning. Pretty impressed. Everyone seems to really like what they're doing. Yeah, Superfiz is a notable Eith Staker.

Starting point is 00:42:58 He says, I'm offering my service as a diva staking delegate. I am encouraged to see diva soliciting input from the community. I want to contribute my efforts to build another strong staking option. I mean, the whole idea is trying to decentralize staking a little bit more. So I guess Superfiz is signing up to be a diva. You have to be a diva. We always knew he was a diva. Did you mean to say that?

Starting point is 00:43:21 I mean, that's got to be the mean they're going with, right? What a wasted opportunity, if not. Call them the divas. You want to be a divas? There you go. Disclosure two. David and I are angel investors and diva. We think it's a pretty cool thing.

Starting point is 00:43:34 I guess we're divas as well. NFT stuff, Azuki. David. I'm sure, I'm sure you were, oh, wait. You weren't biting your, you weren't on the edge of your seat following this Suzuki drama? No, I, I wasn't. But I want you to tell him.

Starting point is 00:43:47 me all about it. So what cool things are happening in the NFT space this week? What cool things are happening? I hate that I had to spend 30 minutes of my morning getting caught up about what. But you did though for us. You took that for us. Okay. So I saw some drama from Azuki. There's some sort of drop that or some sort of mint that got some bad press. What happened? Okay. So Azuki's, you know what Azuki. They're the anime, PFP. But like pretty high floor price. It was like 13, 14, 14, 15 Eath before this drop. Like definitely a top ten project. Top five, I think. Yeah. Like very, very

Starting point is 00:44:19 strong, very strong. So they have been teasing this Azuki Elementals drop, mint. And so the Elementals was a brand new project. They have sometimes NFT, PFP projects. They do further mints because my cynical take is like,

Starting point is 00:44:35 we need another idea. Let's do another mint. I don't know. So they do it. So they had their the Genesis collection, which are the Azookis. beans, which are one of these like pets things for Azukis, they're doing Azuki Elementals. And so 20,000 NFTs, 10,000 of them were airdropped to Azuki holders during, so already. So 20,000 new NFTs, 10,000 Azuki, the Genesis ones, 10,000 of the new 20,000 elementals were airdroped to Azuki holders. The remaining 10,000 elementers were sold

Starting point is 00:45:04 out at two-eath eacher to anyone that owned a Azuki or a bean. So being on the white list means you had to already be in the Azuki community. So $38 million. was raised by the Azukis from their community, from their community. Wow. Yes. So that's a big number. It's a very big number. It's a very big number.

Starting point is 00:45:21 Yes. So they must be valuable. So they were sold for two ETH, and then they were revealed. And so the metadata, you didn't know what they were. You didn't know what they were. Yes. Okay. They were teased.

Starting point is 00:45:31 They had, there was like promo graphics, so people kind of knew what they were. Well, you see this, right? Yeah. It's under wraps? Yes. This is kind of the graphic. And so they were released. And so on the left, we have, these are Azukis.

Starting point is 00:45:42 These are the Genesis collections. These are the very, very highly priced ones. And then if you swap to the right, these are the elementals. Okay. Left, here's the Azukis. Here are the elementals. Let's go back to the Azookis. And back to the elementals.

Starting point is 00:45:58 This is Pam from the office. They're the same picture. They're the same picture. They're the same things. It looks very similar. They are the almost identical. There's not much. I mean, there's not even stylistic changes.

Starting point is 00:46:10 It's just like marginally different. properties. Okay. Go to the next one. Here's the meme that sends this up a bunch. Here's one of the captures. It's like select all the images that are elemental and it's just like, you just don't know. You don't know.

Starting point is 00:46:27 Wait, is there some like, I guess there's a social contract that if you're releasing another 20,000, which is what they were releasing, right? BFPs. That there would be an entirely kind of different collection. Right. Rather than a clone of all of the attributes and everything else that you've previously done. Is that what everyone expected? It's not a perfect clone. Like there are differences,

Starting point is 00:46:48 but you can't, without deeply knowing, unless you're an Azuki expert, they just look the fucking same. Okay. And so as a result of this, the Azuki Elementals, minted at two are now trading below the two-Eath mint. The actual Azuki Genesis

Starting point is 00:47:03 went from 15th or 14th floor down to like 12. And so, like, market cap was lost. The community is not happy. They're not happy. Okay, this is Jeff Morris. I don't know who Jeff is, but he says, if any e-commerce site sold 38 million of merchandise in a pre-sale, this would be headline news. Let's not forget that these digital products with these are digital products with incredible margins for creators, but NFTs are dead is the popular narrative. I guess that's the bulk case, right?

Starting point is 00:47:31 That is the bull case, but it's just like, is 30 million in NFTs? Is this what we, and it's an industry we're going to beat our chest about? It's like, we made $38 million of selling clones of stuff. Can't adults buy what they want, David? Yes, they can. Well, well, yes, they can, but they didn't know what they were, they were, like, taking it on faith that the Azuki team were going to do something that wasn't dilutive of the Genesis.

Starting point is 00:47:57 I don't know. Anyways, we are not NGG experts. If you want to listen to, I'm sure Carly Riley has a much more informed take, so listen to Overpriced JPEGs. There you go. But we are Bitcoin experts. Can you just say that. All right?

Starting point is 00:48:10 Are we? I know that this week, Microstrategy has acquired an additional 12,333 Bitcoin for a grand total of $347 million at an average price of 28K per Bitcoin. Is Sailor trying to own all the Bitcoin? Where does he get this money from? Is micro strategy that profitable? I mean, it's just kind of like it's a, it used to be a business. intelligence technology like software as a service used to be one of the leaders but is not quite like

Starting point is 00:48:46 market leader these days i don't know it's it's now become a bitcoin hedge fund i guess or just a bitcoin hold fund i should say okay uh we don't have this in the agenda so this is bitcoin treasuries dot net i'm read just reading out some stats uh michael sailor micro strategy is in the green They are up 1.03x. They are up 3% on their Bitcoin purchases. Their cost basis is $4.5 billion. Their current value is $4.66 billion. Do you know what's funny is for everyone making fun of him?

Starting point is 00:49:22 I've never been one of it. I think it's funny that he's just using a publicly traded company to dollar cost average in and buy this thing. I just think that's funny that he buys so consistently. But I've always thought that this would pay off for him. Can I show you why, David? It's going to work. I'm going to show you why. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:49:39 This is why. Going back to the markets. Two greens and a red. Three greens and red. Thaler has been looking at this table and he's like, okay, if I don't time things, I just dollar cost average in, where's it going to leave me? And I think the answer is he's going to make money on it. I know you just said if I don't time things, but man, did he time that poorly?

Starting point is 00:50:02 He started in the last green before the red, which is, Not where you want to start buying. No, but that's why, you know, you have to buy more. That's the only solution to getting out of it. If you have a high cost basis, you just keep buying until you lower that. Anyway, that's that for Bitcoin. What do we got here, David? This is the MSTR price.

Starting point is 00:50:24 Okay, so this is just to round out this conversation. Micro Strategy stock price. Yes. So before all of the Bitcoin exposure, before Michael Taylor engaged in Bitcoin shenanigans with micro strategy, micro strategy, the asset, the equity, was trading at $130. Today it is at Drummerall $330. Oh, okay.

Starting point is 00:50:42 So it's like almost 3X. And like not only that, but it hit over $1,000 during the bull market. So like even shareholders, shareholders who are like microsailer, what the hell are you doing to this company? They can't be complaining. Micro Strategy, the equity is almost tripled. No wonder he's getting all this money to buy Bitcoin. It can't be the same shareholders. It's a totally different investment profile.

Starting point is 00:51:03 You're like, I'm buying a business intelligence software company versus like, I'm buying Bitcoin, basically, under a publicly traded symbol. Yeah. Anyway, kind of fun. David, we said earlier there's pressure for Gensler to approve an ETF. I think this is some of the reason why Christian Carlo was the former chair of the CFTC. He says this. Greetings from Tokyo where the headline in Japan Times says exactly what I'm hearing. Here's the headline.

Starting point is 00:51:29 Crypto tumult in U.S. may be Boone for Japan. The U.S.'s loss is Japan's gain. Japan is moving pretty aggressively in a positive way towards regulating crypto, David. We saw, I believe Brian Armstrong threw this out. Last time we talked to Brian Armstrong, actually, he was in Japan, right? So things are happening in Japan. It's not just Japan. HSBC, Hong Kong, now lets customers trade Bitcoin and Ether ETFs.

Starting point is 00:51:59 What? It's possible to get an ETF approved. Nice. In Hong Kong, we can't have that product in the U.S. It's too dangerous for retail. The UK, this just came out before we hit record. Crypto, stable coin rules receive royal assent passing into law, okay? The Financial Services and Markets Act of the 2023, this in the UK,

Starting point is 00:52:20 classifies crypto as a regulated financial activity. And King Charles just gave his approval on that. I guess that's what happens to the UK. Oh, thank God. You get the final blessing from the King. And so the King said yes. And what's the U.S. doing in the backdrop of this, right? These other countries, these other nations, other geographies are competing against the United

Starting point is 00:52:44 States for crypto. And so they're rolling out sensible regulatory frameworks. And they're trying to win that business over. What's your take here? The U.S. is just fumbling. What is the U.S. doing? We're fumbling. I mean, hey, like, U.S. has been in the lead for a long time.

Starting point is 00:53:00 Well, I guess it's innovator's dilemma. This is always what happens, isn't it? Well, I think it's just, you know, it's really nice of us to really just see first place to the rest of the world. It's so stupid. It's so generous of us to help. I think this is another example of like, I just feel like the people who are governing the United States right now are just not making long-term decisions. Yeah. And this is not good for the U.S., but good for these other jurisdictions.

Starting point is 00:53:29 Meanwhile, Binance is doing some things to push back against the SEC. What is this, David? Finance claps back. This is a meta-lawman who goes and says, Binance has gone on the offensive against the SEC in the federal court case, accusing the SEC of violating court rules by making statements outside of the court that are false, designed to harm Binance U.S. customers, and to taint the jury pool. Taunt the jury pool?

Starting point is 00:53:54 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So after entry of an order agreed to by the parties, Binance argues that the SEC issued a misleading press release claiming that Binance had secured emergency relief that ZZ had commingled and diverted customer assets and three, that the order was essential to protecting investor assets. And when questioned by the judge repeatedly, SEC attorneys were unable to point to any evidence

Starting point is 00:54:18 that CZ had diverted or commingled customer assets. So Binance is accusing the SEC of saying, public statements that are untrue and are tainting the image and branding of Binance that would go against them in court, especially in front of a jury. And so far, apparently, allegedly, according to Meda-Lamian and others, that Binance's side of this are is looking pretty good. It's a pretty strong case. Yeah. Uh-huh. Well, that is that contributes to some of the pressure. I think Gensler is feeling right now. And maybe part of the reason is going to improve that ETF. Well, think about this, just like the branding of accusations of unethical conduct coming from these lawyers

Starting point is 00:54:59 that will, like the idea is that that will reverberate in the halls of the SEC and the image of the SEC. Like, SEC gets in trouble in the United States court for unethical conduct. And then all the crypto people are like, hey, Gary Gensler's being unethical and bad and mean to us, all of a sudden it totally legitimizes the entire crypto industry's takes about Gary Gensler. Well, this is pretty big. Like, a regulator cannot lose its credible neutrality or else it loses its legitimacy, right? And so I listened to that. I got caught up on the podcast that you recorded while I was out with, who was it, David?

Starting point is 00:55:35 Austin. So good. Yeah, it's fantastic. And he basically said, hey, regulators are kind of serious people. They know they have a reputation, at least most of them. And they can't be seen to pick winners and losers. So if the SEC approves Black Rock's ETF submission because, you know, Gensler goes fishing with Larry Fink or something like that, right? And that comes out and they say no to Van Ack and they say no to the other for just reasons that don't make sense.

Starting point is 00:56:04 That is incredibly serious, according to Austin in your episode with him and is not a light matter. And this is kind of what Binance is alleging that, well, I guess Gary is picking losers and its entire crypto industry. And targeting finance is the allegation here. So we'll see what the judge says. We'll see what the jury says in this case. Up next, creditors are seeking BlockFi liquidation and accusing the CEO, Zach Prince, of fraud and extortion.

Starting point is 00:56:34 Damn, those are some big words. Okay, so creditors of BlockFi have filed to liquidate the company's estate, accusing Zach Prince of fraud, dishonesty, incompetence, or gross mismanagement, and delaying bankruptcy proceedings. So the creditor said that it's time to end the extortion tactics and adding that it is time for debtors, unsecured creditors to finally know what Blockfly truly was, who Zach Prince truly is, how much he personally profited from the company, and what he and certain of his colleagues were doing when no one was watching. Oof. And then the context here is that with no revenue coming into the company and with the company having compounding losses,

Starting point is 00:57:12 creditors argue that the case should proceed as a liquidation, criticizing Block V's administrative costs, including the salaries for over 100 individuals who, quote, have nothing to do, have nothing better to do but work on their golf game. Oof, arguing that the debtors are intentionally burning an average of more than $16 million per month, merely to augment defensive positions for historical management. basically saying, okay, the creditors who are owed BlockFi's money and saying, hey, BlockFi is burning all this capital

Starting point is 00:57:44 to just argue for their retroactive decisions and it's not doing anything for the benefit of people who are owed money. So let's liquidate the damn thing is the TLDR. That is dirty. That's rough. Two years ago at this time, BlockFi was one of the, one of Cryptos, you know, darlings. Wow.

Starting point is 00:58:03 I'm glad they're seeing their day in court. I'm going to kick someone while it's down, so I'm sorry about that. But this is laser-eyed bitcoins version of defy that they just beated their drum. Like, we don't need defy, we have blockfi. And then like literally the worst example of what a centralized authority can do is what it was. Yeah. Would have been safer to keep it in smart contracts, I would say. David, we got some big things we're releasing on bankless this week.

Starting point is 00:58:28 What are we looking at here? We now have a team at Bankless, whose job it is, to go out and find as many cool perks for bankless citizens as possible. So we have this leaderboard, this tallyboard of how much value can we can provide to bankless citizens. We are now up to $1,297 of value for a bankless citizen membership. So you get a 25% discount to Nason for a month, one month of free usage of QuickNode, 12 months of free access to Zengo MPC wallet, 15% discount for crypto tax calculator, 30% off of permissionless tickets and more and more and there's only going to be more. This is our job. We're going to make that number, which is, again, currently hold us to this $1,297. The value number go up. Number go up.

Starting point is 00:59:08 I want $10,000, baby, one day, one day. So this is all the value that you get as a bankless citizen. And then our people in the Discord saying, hey, we want this. And then we go send our hunters out to go get some of that. Look, almost $1,300 and it's $17.50 a month, right? That's what we call ROI right there. That's what the perks page is set up to do. David, there's more going on in the bank list. Yes. We got more perks. What is this? Bonjour.

Starting point is 00:59:34 Bonjo. I do not know French, but I know bonjour. So Tuesday, July 18th, if you are a bankless citizen, we are having our ETH-C meet-up. This is meet-up number two. Number one was at Eith Denver. It was a raging success. We had free beers because it was Denver. We love beer in Denver.

Starting point is 00:59:50 In France, we love cocktails. So it is at a cozy little cocktail bar. So Citizens Only for a nice event with all of the bankless H-Q member team members who are going to be there, Tuesday, July 18. So if you are a bankless citizen, let us know, and we will get you invited. Okay, so funny story about this picture we're looking at. My wife actually texted me last night while I was on the train from New York, come back home.

Starting point is 01:00:12 And she's like, what is this picture of you? You look like Hitler. I was like, what? That is not what Hitler looks like. That's what I told her. Hillary doesn't have glasses. No, doesn't have, and the mustache is not at all. Right.

Starting point is 01:00:27 That's not a Hitler stash at all. Yeah. Deeply offended. But, you know. It is, this is a massive rug, though, because you will not be there. All right, David, what's coming up next? Coming up next, we got some questions from the nation followed up by the takes of the week. Followed up what David and Ryan are bullish on.

Starting point is 01:00:43 And, of course, the meme of the week. This one, the meme of the week has me and Ryan in it. So we're going to talk about all of this and more. But first, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible. Arbitrum 1 is pioneering the world of secure Ethereum scalability and is continuing to accelerate the Web 3 landscape. Hundreds of projects have arched. already deployed on Arbitrum 1, producing flourishing defy and NFT ecosystems.

Starting point is 01:01:05 With the recent addition of Arbitrum Nova, gaming and social daps like Reddit are also now calling Arbitrum home. Both Arbitrum 1 and Nova leverage the security and decentralization of Ethereum and provide a builder experience that's intuitive, familiar, and fully EVM compatible. On Arbitrum, both builders and users will experience faster transaction speeds with significantly lower gas fees. With Arbitrum's recent migration to Arbitram Nitro, it's also now to. 10 times faster than before. Visit arbitrum.io where you can join the community, dive into the developer docs, bridge your assets, and start building your first app. With arbitrum, experience web three development the way it was meant to be. Secure, fast, cheap, and friction-free. If you haven't experienced the superpowers that a smart contract wallet gives you, check out Ambire. Ambire works with

Starting point is 01:01:51 all the EVM chains that are out there. The layer two is like Arbitrum, optimism, and polygon, but also the non-etherium chains like Avalanche and Phantom. Because of the power of smart contract wallets, Ambire lets you pay for gas and stable coins, meaning you'll never have to spend your precious ETH again. The web app has numerous fiat onrams to make it easy to dump your fiat for crypto. And if you like self-custody, but you still want training rules, you can recover a lost Ambire wallet using an email and password, but without giving the Ambire team any control over your funds. Check it out at ambire.com for the web app experience. But also, the Ambire mobile wallet is coming soon for both iOS and Android. And if you want to be a beta tester, you can sign up

Starting point is 01:02:30 at ambire.com slash app. And since you stayed to the very end of this ad read, you should know that Ambire is air dropping its wallet token to early users for simply just using the wallet. So if you want to get started with Ambire, all the links that you need are in the show notes. Question this week from Nick, aka Sheeproy Jenkins.

Starting point is 01:02:47 What happens to ETH, an ETHL2 price if we head towards a future where anyone can make a blockchain quickly and cheaply for themselves or their companies? Interesting question. So we have all of this excess block space. We're just talking about that earlier in the episode. What happens to ETH price?

Starting point is 01:03:07 What happens to L2 price when we have all of this additional block space becomes incredibly cheap? What do you think, David? Do you think in the phrasing of this question that the implication is that why are these things Ether and Ether layer two tokens, why are these things valuable at all when anyone can make a blockchain quickly and cheaply? Is that the tone of the question? I think that's part. What happens when these things are such a commodity that it's just free and cheap and easy to build a blockchain? That's kind of the nature of the question.

Starting point is 01:03:40 I think that, yes. And I think that the wider context of this type of the question is, hey, we're going through a massive paradigm shift of the transaction volume and the traffic is going to be on layer two's moving forward. We're going to have a lot of layer 2s, and it's going to be abundant. So what happens to the price of ether, or even the price of layer 2 tokens, when no one is actually transacting on ether, like, how they're transacting other places? So I do think that's part of the context, yeah. Okay, so I understand the intuition of just like, hey, we're going to get 10,000 chains. Gas is going to be free. There's going to be so much block space that we're not going to be able to fill it all.

Starting point is 01:04:22 What happens to Ether and Layer 2 prices when fees basically drop to zero? Layer 1 fees won't drop to zero. There will always be a basal level of demand to transact on the Ethereum layer 1. In fact, I kind of think that, like, layer 1 fees are not going down. Like, the lowest that we see them is like 20-Guei on average. Like 20 to 50, guay, I think is like the lowest it's going to be. Like, induced demand will manifest on the layer 2s. But, man, like, at some point in time, like, we can talk about the economics of chains all we want.

Starting point is 01:04:52 And how about does that capture value? How much value does that capture? If it captures too much value, won't we just spin up new chains? At some point, it's just memetic. If there's 10,000 OP stack chains or 10,000 ZK stack chains, those tokens are going to be valuable. Like, just by nature of just the standard being adopted. Like, we can always try and like, here's a formula for understanding, like, ether.

Starting point is 01:05:17 Like, sure. But it's just so mimetic and temporal. people don't understand these things they just buy. And so my intuition is just like, more chains means number go up. More chains means more economic activity on ether. People are going to associate economic activity on ether with ether price on Ethereum with ether price. And so I think when the idea of what happens when anyone can make a blockchain quickly

Starting point is 01:05:44 and cheaply for themselves and their companies, if it's easy, if it's a commodity to build and add your chain to the 10,000 chains that are going on Ethereum in the next five years, the shelling point becomes ether or the layer two tech stack standard that that is built upon. And so just think about the shelling point and think about the adoption of the technology. If the shelling point grows and it's like this one particular standard is the new way we deploy chains, whatever token that is associated with that is going to go up, not become commoditized. That's my answer. Yeah, I think that's a good answer, David.

Starting point is 01:06:16 I guess I would add a few things. The mental model of what you're investing in, I think, is you're investing in an emerging, growing economy, sort of what you're investing in. I think that ether in a world where there are many layer two chains, ether cements itself even further as a money, a store value, unit of account, a medium of exchange for all of the layer twos.

Starting point is 01:06:44 So ether, it appears to me, is in pretty good shape. One other thing I would add to this is the question was, what happens to Ethan Heath Price when we head to our future? Anyone can make a blockchain quickly? Actually, I would say we're already, we've been in that future for a long time. Anybody can make a blockchain quickly. It's just a side chain. You know what I mean? Like, it's very easy to spin up a cosmos chain right now. Like, it couldn't be more simple. That doesn't mean the side chain is more valuable. So we're entering a world where now anybody can make a blockchain that is secured by Ethereum, that is going to be net additive and net good

Starting point is 01:07:20 to the Ethereum ecosystem and to ether the asset, even more than, obviously, much more than side chains ever were. So you've got that working in your favor. I also think that we're probably going to move to a world where a lot of these assets, eth included, but particularly layer two assets, are valued based on the price people are willing to pay for transaction ordering, right, an MEV. And so that will probably be kind of the non-monetary value basal unit of utility in addition to the kind of the gas demand and the demand to get your transaction into the block. Remember, MEV is going to be a huge driver of value here. So all in all, it feels pretty good. I guess the last thing I'd say is I think you're right, David, when you say, the more users you get,

Starting point is 01:08:12 the more tension that comes to your ecosystem and on your asset. So if I'm using the Polygon ecosystem, I'm going to be warming up to Maddoch. Right. And so the next time I see Madic, oh, it's Polychain. Polygon, I use Polygon, right? I'm going to probably be more likely to hit that buy button on Madik. And so that also has not necessarily a fundamental,

Starting point is 01:08:35 kind of a like doesn't affect the asset price, you know, the asset fundamentals, but it does increase the asset value. more users is good and it's hard to deny that. So I guess the answer is number goes up. Number goes up. So there you go, Nick. David, we got some takes of the week. First one from Tyler. What's this look like? Oh man, this one resonated with me. Tyler Reynolds says, truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged. Boy, do I wish I had read this tweet in my tweet? Why? Truth does not mind being questioned. Remember when we had

Starting point is 01:09:11 the Terra Luna is, is Tara Luna a ticking time bomb thumbnail and episode title? And then every single Terra Lunatic came in and was like, you guys are just a bunch of dumb means maxis free in our, in the YouTube comments. I do remember it. Yeah. I was like, man, I wish I had this as like a mental model to like link back on. It's like, hey, if I'm just like perhaps voicing a critique and I'm getting a torrent of toxicity my way, it's because truth. It's a very bad sign. It's a very bad sign. It's coming from a place of insecurity. And so I think this is something just like, hey, if you are giving out legitimate takes and you're getting toxicity in return, maybe you should look at why those reasons are toxic in the first place.

Starting point is 01:09:51 David, I've got to take for you. Yeah, you do. I think I'm ready to capitulate. Yeah, you are. So, ETH price, about this time last year, was just like dipping into three-digit territory. I think it dipped like twice, right? One for like a period of days or something. and then there was another brief leg down around this time.

Starting point is 01:10:13 Ever since then, I have been thinking we would get back to triple digit. And there's a period of time where it was like, you know, training 1100s, 1,200s. And I was like, okay, well, you know what, it's going to kick in. The apathy market's going to kick in, right? And people are going to be like, uh, why do? Like, I'm getting restless. I'm going to sell my ether and we'll see a dip down to triple digit eth. And then you know what we saw.

Starting point is 01:10:39 So we saw FTX absolutely explode. And ETH did not dip down to bring that event into triple digit ETH territory. And I remember telling you, David, it's like, you're like, you know, like you're buying big here. I was like, yeah, I'm still waiting for triple digit Eith, all right? I'm ready to capitulate on that. I don't think we'll see triple digit Eith again. I don't think it'll happen. Fair market's over.

Starting point is 01:11:09 All right. Maybe I'm just tempting the crypto gods because if it does hit triple digit, I'm backing that truck up. But FDX couldn't do it. The bank crisis that we saw in the first quarter of this year, couldn't do it. Not only could it not do it. I mean, it was bullish. Apathy market can't do it. So at this point, I feel ready to capitulate.

Starting point is 01:11:31 And you might have won that one, David. Is that you? This is David Hoffman in replying to my tweet. Man, that's a lot of words just to say David was right. I'm so mean to you. Nice. That's great. Now you're nice to me this week.

Starting point is 01:11:48 My flight was canceled and had a place to co-work. Yeah, that's true. That was fun. What do we got here? Okay. Oh, that, speaking of which? Speaking of which. That's you and I.

Starting point is 01:11:58 So I took this, we took this screenshot because we were about to record a podcast with Raoul Paul. And so I was like, this is hilarious. Let me take a screen capture of this and I'll post it. And like even people in our company was like, that's a doctorate photograph. Ryan's fake in that photo. He's not actually in David's apartment. And then this is Michael Wong's meme.

Starting point is 01:12:18 This is just a deep, nostalgic millennial meme of Jimmy Neutron and Timmy Turner from Nicolocartoon Network. Oh, I'm failing as a millennial. Anyways, it's a crossover episode where Timmy Turner and Jimmy Neutron. Tron are illustrated like each other. God, I'm bitchering this. Anyways, I thought it was funny. Yeah, it was great to appear in the flesh. We got three episodes. Never, never what I thought possible. Yeah, in person, in person. So we did that. One thing I learned is actually, you don't drink as much coffee as I thought that you did. Oh, did I disappoint you. Yeah. I do when I like, so I make like at least a pot at home and make a second pot in the afternoon.

Starting point is 01:13:01 I'm guzzling all the morning. But I didn't want to like, because I had coffee in the mornings. I was bringing to your place. I could get that. I didn't want, like, to make you do coffee all day. You make it by the cup, don't you? Yeah, I have a little espresso machine. I'm not going to, let me tell you, people who have espresso machines. David, fetch my coffee all day.

Starting point is 01:13:19 People who have espresso machines love making espresso. I'll tell you this. Would you like to make me more coffee? Yeah, like, yeah. It's like, because like you want like, oh, this one's kind of acidic. It's like, oh, I need, I need that feedback so I can improve my coffee making style. I'm not going to come over to your place. It is a, it is a privilege to be made coffee.

Starting point is 01:13:36 by David Hoffman. Let me tell you. Well, that's true. I enjoy that privilege. It's a fantastic coffee. I'm back to my old, like, you know, just drip pot coffee. And you put it. Pour over in a paper filter inside of the ChemX? No, dude, I don't even do that. I'm just like, push the button. Drip? I grind my beans. At least I do that. But then I just push the button. Yeah. It's drip. That's how primitive I am.

Starting point is 01:13:59 It's pretty primitive, bro. Yeah. So when I'm going to the mountains, this is my last weekly roll up for two weeks, by the way. So you and Anthony are coming up. Okay. Is this, okay, is this what you're bullish on, by the way, when we get to that? Because you're climbing three mountains. Three mountains. Two mountains over the next 10 days.

Starting point is 01:14:16 But the point why this is connects to coffee is I'm bringing freshly ground coffee in my aeropress. You know, Bankless Nation, if you don't know what an arrow press is, A E-R-O-Press, yeah. And so, like, I'm going to have my lovely coffee out at like 12,000 feet up. Yeah. It makes great coffee. It does. In fact, I think it's some of the best. coffee I've had. Yours not with standing, my friend. Actually, can I just pull up this tweet?

Starting point is 01:14:40 Because I saw this. This came up in my feed yesterday. Seven days until Bakers, 12 days until Rainer. Did I say that right? Rainier. You did not. Rainier, yeah. Rainier. 32 days until Matterhorn. These are the mountains you're climbing. Yeah. Uh-huh. What's this one? That one's rainier. Okay, that one's special because I grew up in Seattle. And so I would, you can see that one from Seattle. And so I would look at that mountain, like almost every single day of my life. And now I get to go climb it. And you're doing that. You're starting that next week, right? Yes. Tomorrow I leave for Seattle.

Starting point is 01:15:11 I'm going to go hang out with my nephew and family for five days, hang out with them for the fourth. And then Wednesday at 6.30 a.m. there's a gear check. Make sure I brought all the right gear so I don't die. And then we go to Baker. Wow, David. Well, on behalf of myself. I go to bed, like, lately, and I'm like, I'm kind of stressed.

Starting point is 01:15:32 I'm sitting in bed and like, oh, man, that's a lot of climate. one looks daunting to me and then they just get harder. Yeah, bro. Look at that. What is that? Are you saying? That's the Matterhorn. That's not a very good picture of the Matterhorn.

Starting point is 01:15:43 But yes, the, okay, so Baker and Renier is nice because if you, like, if you fall, you just get back up. Like, you just fall on the Matterhorn, you can't fall. Okay. On behalf of the entire Bankless Nation, just come back. Okay? Like, just, yeah. I pay money to make, to guides to make sure I come back.

Starting point is 01:16:02 it's it's somebody's job to make sure I come back and it's not me wow that that is somewhat comforting you do some training going into this too oh I've dude I spent six and a half hours on a treadmill stair stepper last weekend that was my weekend all right all right well be safe what do you bullish on frontier technologies and so throwing it throwing it back to zuzaloo content if you don't watch any if you only watch one bit of zuzaloo content make it the intro and perhaps also the full interview of Vitalik. So like, yeah, I spend, but I write like, there's like a video essay of me giving you the account of Zuzalu, the significance of it, what it is and what my biggest takeaways. So if you want

Starting point is 01:16:46 to just like get these quickest TLDR, watch the Vitalik interview or just the 10 minutes of like my video essay at the very beginning. And that will give you everything that you need to know. I was listening to it because I hadn't listened to it in a while. And I was like, okay, yes, this came out the way that I wanted it to. And, uh, and I was like, okay, yes, this came out the way that I wanted it to. And so I'm just bullish on frontier technologies. What are frontier technologies? Like AI, longevity, decentralized science, synthetic biology, you know, public goods, ZK cryptography. And the line that I give is like, Ethereum is the eldest most mature sibling of a bunch of frontier technologies. It grew up sooner than the rest of them. AI is now coming of age.

Starting point is 01:17:25 These other frontier technologies are still trying to figure out how to stand up. So Ethereum is like the eldest sibling that's like alone in this room fighting with its parents like the regulators the nation states and it doesn't have any like other frontier technologies to support it because it's alone but all of those frontier technologies like AI longevity synthetic biology network states they're not they're also going to need support from their siblings because the incumbents aren't going to accept them and legitimize them so well i was reflecting on this too it's like some of the the challenges that we've seen in crypto i mean you look at AI right now now.

Starting point is 01:18:00 Same thing. Regulators. What are you going to do? What is the right regulatory posture? And then there's also some critiques of, you know, the AI companies right now, the big ones engaging in regulatory capture, right? It's a problem crypto has as well. How do we make sure the big centralized service providers or banks don't completely

Starting point is 01:18:20 own this thing? Regulatory capture. It's like a similar set of concerns. And yeah, crypto has been on the forefront of that. So AI's, I guess, is going to face them as well. Yeah. So that's what I'm bullish on. Frontier Technologies.

Starting point is 01:18:34 Ryan, what do you bullish on? Roll-ups, man. There's been like a roll-up explosion, I feel like in terms of infrastructure. We get in cheap block space here. So we had the announcement of ZK Synx, ZK Stack, of course. And it just seems like every roll-up has a strategy here. So ZK Stack, OP stack, Polygon, Arbitrum. I'm just looking forward to a world when we have cheap.

Starting point is 01:18:58 bandwidth, transaction, bandwidth, anybody can spin up their own chain. There's kind of like the days of the internet where anybody could spin up their own blog or anybody could spin up their own server and host their own website. I think it's going to unleash

Starting point is 01:19:14 a massive wave of innovation that, again, we still need the apps. We can't see those yet. But now we have cheap block space and I think we're going to live in a world of many many chains, you know, thousands, tens of thousands of change.

Starting point is 01:19:29 I'm just excited about all of the work that's getting done in the build market, as we've called it. You know what I'm excited about? What? All of the layer two thesis that we didn't exactly become as a podcast as like a media platform wasn't accepted in 2021 because it was all about the Alt Layer 1s. What is showing strength in the bare market? Layer 2's.

Starting point is 01:19:54 There 2's. And that to me is signal. If you can show strength in a bear market, what do you think you can do in a bull market? And so that's what gets me excited. It's so hard to get traction in the bear market is what you're saying. I think the communities that survive will thrive in the next bull cycle, which is happening when? Starting now? We are in Schrodinger's market now.

Starting point is 01:20:16 Next year is the bull market. It's scheduled. Good book. I scheduled it. Full circle. It's on my calendar. It's on your calendar. No mountain climbing next year, David?

Starting point is 01:20:24 Oh no, I don't want to hear that. Yeah, mount climbed during the bearer. Yeah, that's right. All right, ready for meme in the week? Yeah, meme in the week. What are we looking at? Here we go. This isn't exactly meme, but this is funny.

Starting point is 01:20:38 I thought it was funny. So, okay, so Ryan was co-working at my place in Brooklyn. And so he was over there just like in my kitchen counter island thing. And instead of like turning around and speaking to me, he would just send me messages in discord. you're like hey what do you think about this it look it has the context you know you had your headphones in i didn't want to disrupt you that's how we always speak i'm not used to actually talking to the person the one time you can just turn around and like speak word you're like not discord bro

Starting point is 01:21:08 thanks for the coffee though it was fun guys we'll end with this of course got to let you know none of this has been financial advice it never is on bank lists it's not even frontier technology advice. So David got to give us a lot of content from Zuzalo this week. Crypto is risky. You could definitely lose what you put in, but we are headed west. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone, but we're glad you're with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot.

Bankless - ROLLUP: BTC ETF Race Heats Up, zkSync drops the ZK Stack, OP going ZK?

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