Bankless - ROLLUP: (Mark Cuban Titan, Metamask Institutional, Alchemix alETH, BTC Lightning)

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey guys, happy Friday morning. It is roll-up time. Third week of June, David, you ready to get into the roll-ups? Absolutely. My favorite piece of content out of the bankless ecosystem is, of course, the Friday weekly roll-ups, where we roll up the entire week of news in the crypto industry, in as fast as possible. And so we go through the markets. What's happened in the market releases news ecosystem takes, and then we finish off with what Ryan and David are excited about. And of course, the cherry on top. the meme of the week. This episode is a little bit different in that we are actually sprinkling some memes throughout the episode. And so if you want all the memes, they're going to have to say to the very end because they are little Easter eggs of memes throughout this entire episode. It's going to be a good one. Absolutely. You guys can check that out to get the most memes into your brain via YouTube. That's the way to get this visually. It also comes out on the podcast. David, before we get in, we got to talk about our friends at Ledger because they're doing some

Starting point is 00:01:08 amazing things with ledger live. So if you have a ledger, as I think many listening to the bankless program do, not just one, but many ledgers. There are new ways you can start. There are many ways you can start using it in defy, all sorts of new ways through ledger live. Do you want to talk about this for a second, David? Yeah, totally. I think we're going to get into this, but I think we're in this big consolidation period in crypto. And this is the time for you as a listener to refine your crypto environment, right? Like if you just like knead it into crypto in the last few months

Starting point is 00:01:42 and you haven't really figured things out and you don't have a hardware wallet yet, you need to get a hardware wallet. Ledger is like the first stop into the world of banklessness and the combination of a ledger hardware wallet plus the Ledger Live software it really unlocks a lot of the powers of Defi

Starting point is 00:01:57 as like a really easy stepping zone to get into the world. So if you're new to Defi, if you have friends that are new to Defi, the ledger is the ledger, The Ledger mobile, excuse me, the Ledger Hardware Wall is something you absolutely need, and it pairs very well with a Ledger Live app. Absolutely, guys.

Starting point is 00:02:13 So now's the time. Get your equipment prepared. We've got kind of a lull in the market. So make sure you've got the right equipment for the Bankless journey. And you can see a link in the show notes to help you with that. That's Bankless.c.c.c.com slash Ledger. Y.T. All right, David, you ready to talk about markets?

Starting point is 00:02:30 Market time. All right. What is happening in the markets? And I mean, what is happening in the markets? Bitcoin, let's start there. Where are we at? We are at $38,300. Still struggling to keep its head above that $40,000 mark,

Starting point is 00:02:47 which is where Bitcoiners have said that they kind of feel safe. Bitcoiners feel safe above $40,000. Below it, we're still kind of in no-man's territory. I don't really know what we're doing. We had the El Salvador news this week, and that pumped up Bitcoin up to $43,000. but it quickly retraced all the way back down to $40,000, catch its head above $40,000 for $40,000 for most of the week,

Starting point is 00:03:10 but now we are dipping once again below that $40,000 mark. Yeah, are people disappointed in that? Did they think that El Salvador News would be more persistent? It seemed like there were some good things that came out of that, but also maybe some regulatory fud that came out of that. So it's a double-edged sword or maybe it just doesn't excite the market as much at this point in the cycle. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, it is a classic indicator of a bare market that good news does not show up in the charts.

Starting point is 00:03:38 And I have to say that that's what I'm seeing right now. Like the El Salvador news did not really revitalize Bitcoin in the way a lot of people hoped for. That being said, at the same time, there is generally a lull between good news with Bitcoin and where it actually does show up in the markets. For example, micro strategy, for example, which we know that literally the Bitcoin price is higher because of micro-success. strategy, how could it not be? They have over 100,000 bitcoins on the balance sheet. But the micro strategy news didn't really get to start being reflected in the Bitcoin chart for multiple weeks afterwards. I think it was like six to eight weeks afterwards. And so that's kind of the narrative that I'm hearing from CK, my favorite bitcoiner. And they just, Bitcoiners think that like, oh yeah, we're in this, like,

Starting point is 00:04:21 the world's going to have to like come to terms with this and they're going to figure it out. And so they'll start buying when they slowly figure it out like six to eight weeks later. David we just said Nick Carter was our favorite Bic-Connor do you have two or we were you okay CK is my homey my in real life homie okay I are all friend Bitcoiner yeah okay there we go all right well what about Eith is that showing a better picture here nope it's not thank you he did the same thing it jumped above two thousand six hundred dollars I think it peaked out right below two thousand two thousand seven hundred dollars and we are now down at two thousand three $350 at the time of recording, continuing exactly what Ledger said on our state of the nation with him,

Starting point is 00:05:02 which I continue to find extremely insightful and helpful. Definitely go watch that if you have not yet. But it looks like crypto is just range bound for Ether between like 2000 and $3,000 for Bitcoin between like $35,000 and $40,000. That's kind of going to be where we're going to hang out. That's kind of the gist that people are saying. I still feel like Ethereum kind of feel safe around above 2000. So still feeling safe. But like if it dips below 2000, not feeling so great about Eith Price.

Starting point is 00:05:32 Yeah, like Ledger, the TLDR of that episode, in addition to showing us how to trade, which was much needed help for me. So he basically said that he thought there's a decent chance that Ethan Bitcoin are kind of flat from here on now for the year, for the remainder of the year, the next six months. We're talking about that. We'll have to see how all of this plays out. But of course. And also no one knows.

Starting point is 00:05:53 No one knows. New news can happen. It was a guess, right? It's like, but that, the interesting thing about that guess is kind of, it's kind of a contrarian guess because it's not how the pattern has played out in previous cycles, right? In previous cycles, this is either a lull, and then we snap right back up or like, the market's over, we hit the top and it's all down, down, down from here for a while. All right, Eiff Bitcoin chart, the ratio, how is the ratio holding up?

Starting point is 00:06:19 It's down a bit. Same kind of like ranging pattern. It's on the lower end of the range. the range that I think is being established is between 0.06 and 0.08, and we are at that low side of that range at 0.061. And so we are, we'll see if we can, you know, like, kind of bounce between these two ranges. But, you know, overall, still pretty high in terms. And overall, like, you know, historically, 0.06, Ether BTC is high historically.

Starting point is 00:06:48 Back to where we are in early March. Sorry, early May, excuse me. Yeah. So either BTC really establishing a floor, perhaps. Hopefully it doesn't break down because we like that number to be high. At least I do. Okay. Speaking of breakdowns, I want to talk about that other ratio that we talk about every week,

Starting point is 00:07:04 but not yet because I think that has broken down, David. Hang on. Hang on. Hang on your hats. Okay, we'll see. Anthony Sassano, this chart is absolutely incredible, he says. This is the amount of ETH locked in smart contracts. It's at 23% of all ETH supply.

Starting point is 00:07:23 in smart contracts. This is a similar level to what it was, he points out, which I thought was interesting, at the Dow event. The Dow, of course, like original 2016, when everyone in Ethereum basically thought the Dow was this killer app was like a decentralized investment vehicle. They just shoveled. They just, yeah, it was the only app.

Starting point is 00:07:45 And they just like, everyone is so excited. They just all Eath holders there, this is a much smaller amount of them just shoveled all of their, ether into the Dowd. Of course, there was a hack, a very famous incident, and we've talked about a lot. But now we're back to where we were, except that at the time of the Dow, ether was worth $230 million beef locked in the Dow, and everyone thought that was amazing. Now, Heath locked in smart contracts is worth $63 billion. $63 billion, five years. Pretty crazy. Yeah, there's two stories here. at the event of the Dow, the reason why he was able to capture so much ETH is because

Starting point is 00:08:23 ETH was extremely undistributed, right? And so while there was 22.5% of all ETH in there, it was really only a relatively small handful of players because Ether hadn't been distributed. Etherium was one year old. And so it's really just a bunch of OG whales who had like ether between one and $10. The fact that we have an equivalent amount of Ether and smart contracts nowadays is a story of how many more smart contracts there are to D.E. deposit ether into and those smart contracts are really now like compelling places to deposit ether into. And the other story, of course, is that ether this time around is very much treated as a monetary asset and the applications attracting all of those ether deposits are

Starting point is 00:09:05 treating ether as a monetary asset and that's why they are receiving deposits. And so really the story of this is like in 2016 with the Dow, ether wasn't a money and there was only one contract to deposit the ether into. And in 2021, ether is money, and there's a ton of smart contracts trying to compete for those deposits. And that's why Ether is reaching like 22.5%

Starting point is 00:09:29 of all Ether deposit into smart contracts. And I don't think it's going down at all. I think it's marching right up to 50%. It's so much healthier, right? So about 10% is distributed in defy contracts. So all that AVE compound protocols we know and love, close to four or five percent or so of that supply is deposited into the beaking chain staking contract.

Starting point is 00:09:52 So as you're saying, David, not all in one place. You look at this chart in 2016. It's just like nothing. And then straight up does not look healthy. Getting to where we are now has been a series of sort of apps that have really earned the ETH that they have in them. So it's just a cool story. It's going to be cool to see that.

Starting point is 00:10:11 Let's talk about total locked value in DFI, because we always talk about it. every week. We're kind of range-bound again. I guess that's the story, about 60 billion or so locked in defy right now. Yep. Nothing too much there except for the fact that AVE continues to hold the number one spot at 14.5% of all TVL is in AVE, which is pretty cool. By a healthy margin, but you look at this. Curve is number two. Interesting. Interesting. Unseating maker now has the bronze medal. Curves is number two. Aveh number one. DeFi Pulse index. Are we flat on the week here too? Let me zoom out to the week. Yep. A little bit flat, a little bit flat. Wow, what a boring market. It's flat and everyone's sad about it.

Starting point is 00:10:53 Hey, a flat market, I have no complaints. It just gives us more time to build cool stuff. All right. Look at these numbers. These are great. Okay, we are now looking at the DPI versus Eth and the, I called the bottom at point one three. Said that that was the bottom on Uniswap DPI versus Eth is at point one to 99 on sushi swap. Eth DPI is at point one three three. call it a watch at exactly point one line the the point one three bottom call still intact still intact i'm not not admitting defeat yet you are hanging by a string though like this is just like there's no way this is going to stay intact for another week oh come on have some faith and by the way it it did drop look at this yeah but if it drops and comebacks backed up i'm still claiming victory it needs to meaning it has to be on our on our weekly roll up like at the time of recording our weekly

Starting point is 00:11:45 roll up if it's below 0.13. If it's below 0.13 for two weekly roll-ups in a row, then I will admit to feed. Okay. Okay. And it's got to be below point point one three by like not just a sliver like a decent amount. I, I, isn't there some goalpost moving here? No, no, shush, no. We'll see. I don't think it'll hold no matter how you move those goalposts, David. Let's talk about this. Mind blowing revenue numbers from index co-op. Really cool. to highlight really cool DFI product as well. They made close to a million dollars in top of the line revenue over the past months. This is like an ETF killer.

Starting point is 00:12:26 It's like DFI's answer to BlackRock. Black, yeah, Black Rock, Vanguard group, like ETF products, index products. And they're crushing it. This is a tweet by Peter Pan. I think this is the index co-ops. It's like the org chart, right. David, you and I have sat. It's like orgs plus partnerships.

Starting point is 00:12:47 Yeah, we've gone to some index co-op calls. Like, I'm not into, like I haven't done much in the index co-op DAO, but we've attended some calls. And that is just like, it's fluid, it's fluid. It is run well. Everybody contributes. Everyone knows what they're doing. I really feel like the index co-op DAO is kind of a model for other DAO's to learn from.

Starting point is 00:13:11 I encourage people, if they're listening, if you're part of a DAO, index co-op if you're not the index co-op dial but like bankless Dow or any other Dow it's forming go check out what index co-op is doing how they're managing their processes because I feel like they're they're just nailing it and they're laser focused on meaningful metrics that will deliver great products and deliver AUM into their products super cool yeah and the reason why we are talking about literally the org chart of index co-op in the market section is because of the tweet that Ryan was just sharing a second ago, like, is it a coincidence that index co-op, perhaps the most

Starting point is 00:13:46 organized DAO in the entire space is also generating an insane amount of revenue? Like, no, I don't think so. And so this is a story of a DAO with on-chain smart contracts that puts money into the index co-op bank and off-chain people organization, organizing other people, right? Capital coordination, people coordination. Like there's a story here, index co-op, really killing it. Nice job, guys. Yeah, you're starting to see that even like the comment about AVE. AVE has managed their Dow and their operations very well. You're starting to see DFI protocols separate themselves, not just on the idea,

Starting point is 00:14:21 but also on the execution and organization around that idea. And I think we'll continue to see that. All right, let's go to what's happening next. Bitcoin in the Lightning Network. All right. So Bitcoin in the Lightning Network has accelerated to over 1,500 Bitcoin in the Lightning Network. The through line here is that Bitcoin in the Lightning Network, the supply has really been flat for a very long amount of time, and it's finally setting new highs. Here's and sure.

Starting point is 00:14:51 It's been, it peaked out in July of 2019, and then it dipped through all out, all of 2020. And we are finally breaking into new highs of BTC supply in the Lightning Network. There's very much a renewed interest in the Lightning Network ever since the Bitcoin 2021 conference in Miami. and that's being shown by more and more people depositing Bitcoin into the Lightning Network. Guess who else is excited, David? Jack Dorsey. Big shocker. Twitter. Jack Dorsey says, excuse me, Twitter CEO, Jack Dorsey says,

Starting point is 00:15:22 it's only a matter of time before Twitter integrates Bitcoin Lightning Network. Only amount of time is kind of the same thing as saying soon, TM. We've heard Jack make comments like this before. I'm waiting to see it. I don't really know what Twitter would do with Bitcoin integration. that's like meaningfully different than just like, why don't you also just like pass around dollars? I think more crypto Twitter or more Twitter people would want to pass dollars around each other. But interesting to see what Jack has in store for a Lightning network Twitter integration.

Starting point is 00:15:52 David, I have kind of a hot take on Lightning here. I know if you let's hear it. Okay, so I think that Bitcoiners should take a step back and ask themselves why Lightning has the tiny, almost minuscule level. of adoption that it has, right? Like, I get that it's increased a little bit. There's 500, I guess, additional Bitcoin in Lightning over the past few months. But this is still a very small number. Like, it almost is insignificant.

Starting point is 00:16:25 Like, it almost, right? And, like, we've been talking about the year of, crypto has been talking about the year of lightning since, like, 2018, 2019 will be the year of lightning. 2020 will be the year of lightning, 2021. I remember there were like memes in Ethereum about payment networks coming, like Raiden, for instance, and state channels and like plasma, these technologies, these things didn't work out. But you know what? Like, I feel like the Ethereum community realized they didn't work out and then they moved on. And I also feel like the Bitcoin community is just stuck on the lightning meme.

Starting point is 00:17:01 And they're not taking a step back and looking at adoption. Like these numbers are small, David. We're talking about 0.0083%. That's 2 zeros in front of the 83% of Bitcoin supply in Lightning. We just talked about total locked value in Defi, right? 10% of all ETH, 23% inside smart contracts, 23% versus 0.0083% of Bitcoin in Lightning. And I'm not being a hater here because I support non-custodial, bankless, peer-to-peer, transmission. I think lightning as a technology is trustless and it's great. But we should also step back

Starting point is 00:17:42 and ask ourselves like, why it's not working. Is it because people don't want to spend their Bitcoin, to your point? Like stable coins, maybe the use case, like Bitcoin, digital gold. Hey, that worked well. I don't want to spend my digital gold. I'll spend my crappy fiat dollars. Maybe that's a reason. Maybe it's also the capital inefficiency of these payment networks. Maybe it's user experience. Maybe it's people don't care as much about decentralization when they can use a custody Bitcoin. bank for these things. Anyway, I'm just kind of over and kind of exhausted by the meaming of Lightning without the real world adoption. That was okay in 2017, 2018 to get excited about these kind of like a 500 Bitcoin gain here or there. But like it's 2021. We have Defi.

Starting point is 00:18:26 Like we don't need to settle for this. So if that feels like a rant against Lightning, I'm sorry. I appreciate the technologists working on this. But at the same time, time, let's be real about our progress here. And the technology certainly hasn't panned out the way I think the advocates hoped for. And maybe we should think about alternatives. Yeah, I 100% agree with basically everything you just said. I think the reason why I wanted to bring this up in today's weekly roll-ups is kind of to give, and maybe this is what you're critiquing is, but giving the bitcoins the benefit of the doubt. Like there was lightning network hype at Bitcoin Miami. me and Bitcoiners that I pay attention to are once again stoked by Lightning Network.

Starting point is 00:19:07 Maybe that is just straight up Stockholm syndrome or some version of it where they don't really have a choice. Like what else are they going to be excited about? Like Taproot is also here, but also is that really all that cool of an innovation? That's up for debate as well. Maybe they're just beating the drum about like the one innovation that they have. At the end of the day, they're, Bitcoiners are excited about it. They're talking about it.

Starting point is 00:19:29 So we're talking about it in the news. But yeah, Ryan, everything you said, I'm kind of on board with. Well, we'll see. Look, I'd be super excited if this surprise me. Maybe we're missing something. We are not deep in the weeds. We are not Lightning Network at all.

Starting point is 00:19:41 I don't run a Lightning Network note. Guys, if there's something we are missing here, reach out to David and I and tell us what we are missing. Oh, boy. Let's talk about. Don't have that. No? Okay.

Starting point is 00:19:53 I'm sure the bankless audience is friendly and it's certainly open-minded. All right. Let's talk about this. Barish Uni fee accrual. This is super interesting, David. So the top Uniswop pool right now. So if you recall in Uniswap v2, there was only one fee pool percentage. Like every few pools.

Starting point is 00:20:16 The structure was set at 0.3% every single pool. In Uniswap v3, you have three different tiers of pools. I believe it's three. There's a very low tier of pool where it's 0.05%. There's still the standard 0.3%. And I think there's like, like a 0.5%, right? 1%.

Starting point is 00:20:34 Oh, 1%. Okay, so 0.3, there's 1 whole percent. It's not 0.1%. No, 1%. So there's really expensive, there's the way it used to be sort of normal, and there's low fee. What's really interesting is the USDC, eith pair, the lowest fee tier, the 0.05%, just surpass the 0.3%. And what's interesting about that is it means...

Starting point is 00:20:59 Surpassing volume and trading volume. Exactly. Yes. That's important. Not total long. Over the last 24 hours and not over the last seven days. Correct. So we can't extrapolate this trend until we see a trend too much. But what would be interesting, I think, is if low fee liquidity pools like won out. And like why wouldn't they win out? Right. But the analysis here, the second order analysis here is probably that what could happen then is some of these pools commoditize. and then fees are lower. So possible fees back to uniswap holders in the form of revenue are also lower. So does this start to chip away at the armor of any kind of AMM value accrual, token value accrual hope? Right?

Starting point is 00:21:51 So like the idea that, hey, these pools will just commoditize and fees will kind of collapse to near zero. And there won't be much revenue. generated over the long term by automated market makers. It's good for users, but for holders of the Unitokin, what do you think this means? Yeah, I think this is an extension off of very early Ethereum conversation in 2015 to 17, where people were talking about the power and possibilities of smart contracts, and people are saying, you know, this is all going to be open source software because if somebody makes a smart contract on Ethereum that implements a fee, we'll just fork it and do it without the fee. Turns out that never really happened. And really, really,

Starting point is 00:22:31 what's happening instead is instead of forking out fees, DeFi apps are competing to get lower and lower fees, right? Defi is a crucible of capital efficiency and fee competition, and we are now converging upon lower and lower fees as this competition gets more and more intense. And so 100%, the lowest fee tier structure of Uniswap generating the most volume on ether to dollar pairs is really, really interesting. Usually the thought was that lowest fee tier,

Starting point is 00:23:00 the 0.05% fee, tier was really kind of meant for stable coin swaps or like to like asset swaps just because why am I paying a whole point three percent on like trading crypto dollars right why am I doing that unless it makes more sense when you know things that are like priced stay inside of the same bound to have a lower fee for that but now we're seeing ether trading in that lower fee tier but the other half of this argument the the to continue on with what you were saying the uniswap has less margin that is available for them to capture fees on in theory, right? If everyone is trading in this lowest fee tear, there's less of a total collected fees

Starting point is 00:23:41 for the unitoken to really capture if it ever wanted to turn that on. But if we go back to our conversation with Joel Mnegro, it's less about the specific revenue captured by the fees and more about the power to direct money, right? So if a lot of money and just values circulating through, Uniswap, regardless of the fee tiers, then the, and the Uni token holders govern over the flow of funds, that's valuable for the Unitoken holders. And the way that he described this is that if all these users who are using Uniswap to trade and they're all using the 0.05%

Starting point is 00:24:16 trading pool, they are incentivized to keep that 0.05% like trading the same, right? They want, they want to control that fee. They want to keep that fee low. And that incentive to have power and governance over the fee tiers and how fees are directed is goes into buying demand for the unitoken so it's less about is the unitoken actually going to receive cash flows and more about how much is the unitoken in demand because of the incentive to direct the cash flows of the uniswap governance and so joles jol's theory was that you don't actually need to capture cash flows in order to have a valuable unitoken and so this is a domain that we're going to have to explore in this base. Like, sure, there's there's tokens that will, that don't capture actual

Starting point is 00:25:02 cash flows, but they have power. And that's going to be an incentive to buy and hold the tokens. And so maybe we actually have to reconstruct how we even think about these tokens. It could be. Yeah, it could be. And I see the other side of the argument. And by the way, this, this doesn't necessarily mark a trend. I mean, you know, UDISWP is generating massive amount of fees in general. Fees are down, but total revenue is up. Yeah, it does make, it does make me less comfortable, I would say, with my understanding of defy token assets. We'll say it that way because there's definitely if you treat defy tokens as capital assets, just like stocks, and you can model them based on net present value future cash flows, that's a very beautiful thing.

Starting point is 00:25:45 If now we're saying the model is kind of shifted a little bit where you can't just look at the cash that it generates. And it's this other thing. It's like this power governance dynamic. Power tokens. We don't know how to model that, right? Then that's not capital assets. They're power tokens. I love that. I love that meme. Well, there you go. So we'll have to see how this plays out. Anyway, I thought that was super interesting this week. Let's talk about something else that's interesting. Nearly 90% of cryptocurrency investors surveyed said they weren't scared by May's brutal sell-off. What are they doing instead? They're planning to buy more. See, this is why this whole like range-bound thing is actually. a period of very high pain because no one's no one's selling because people are still bullish we still think well who is selling somebody's selling right yeah no no very few people are selling people are trying to accumulate because they want to buy more but now we're accumulating at like 23 to 2,600 ether that's a really tough price to accumulate at like it's kind of expensive yet everyone is still expecting it to go more right and so like that's that's where the max max pain is

Starting point is 00:26:53 is, you know, only the most convicted people are really, like, ready to just yeat their funds into ether. And so the people who are trying to stack as much ether as possible, they want to stack it below $2,000. But a lot of people want to stack it below $2,000. And so it seems to be there's a lot of people with demand to buy ether, but it's also demand to buy ether at this, you know, historically this expensive price. This is crypto holders right now. First meme of the show, basically what crypto holders are. are the Wolf of Wall Street. I'm not effing selling meme right now.

Starting point is 00:27:28 Even though we all got smacked by that 60% drawdown plus a little bit of a rebound, everyone is like, no, I'm not selling. No way. Guys, we will be back in just a moment with some releases because the builders are still building, but before we get to releases, we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible. Balancer is Defi's most powerful automated market maker.

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Starting point is 00:29:04 AVE is a borrowing and lending protocol on Ethereum and just recently released AVE version 2, which has a ton of cool new features that makes using Avey even more powerful. With Avey, you can leverage the full power of DeFi Money Legos, yield, and compote. all in one application. On Ave, there are a ton of assets that you can deposit in order to gain yield, and all of those same assets can also be borrowed from the protocol if you have deposited collateral. Here you can see me getting a 200 USDC loan against my portfolio of a number of different defy tokens and ETH. I'll choose a variable interest rate because it's a lower rate than the stable interest rate option, but I could choose the stable interest rate option if I wanted to lock that interest rate in permanently.

Starting point is 00:29:50 One of AVE's V2 features is the ability to swap collateral without having to withdraw your assets. Trade them on Uniswap and then deposit them back into AVE. AVE does all of this for you all in one seamless transaction. So you don't have to repay loans in order to change the collateral you have backing them. Check out the power of AVE at AVE.com. That's AAVE.com. All right, guys, we are back with releases. The first is Metamask is going institutional.

Starting point is 00:30:17 Welcome to the layer of the blue fox, they said. I guess Metamask is releasing an institutional version of their popular browser extension. David, what's happening here? Yeah, I'm actually not too sure. I would like to get a peek under the hood of what this new version of Metamask is, which apparently is focused for institutions. To me, if it's kind of similar to its current instantiation of a Defi web browser that has your Ethereum wallet or connects to your ledger and allows you to connect to Defi apps,

Starting point is 00:30:45 how does it change if it's for institutions? Is it still a web browser? Is it something else? Can I use it? I kind of want to find out what Metamask institution is. Maybe I'm an institution. I think some clarity around this would be interesting. But I'd like to see what about MetaMass is different

Starting point is 00:31:02 and now that it is for institutions. Interesting that MetaMask is going after the institutional client. And I think that kind of started with their Dex order routing feature and starts to just bring a lot of the power of defy into the actual metamask interface. So maybe they're kind of just like being a white glove service, a white glove app. Yeah, I think this is going to be trend for defy. The AVE institutional liquidity pools is another, like,

Starting point is 00:31:29 defy opening its doors to institutions might be something that a lot of protocols and infrastructure in the space start to do. All right, David, let's talk about alchemics because they released something cool this week and then there were some issues. What is alchemics? What did they release? Yeah, so Alchemics is the, defy app where you can deposit dollars and then you can get a dollar loan against your dollars.

Starting point is 00:31:51 So interesting primitive, what you do is you deposit dollars and then those dollars get deposited into yearn and then you can borrow up to 50% of your deposited dollars in more dollars. And then the loan pays itself back from the yield generated by yearn. And so you actually don't have to pay back your own loan. It just pays back yourself, itself over time. They just, Alchemics just release its long-awaited al-eath, which is the same thing I just described, but now instead of dollars, it's now Eth. So you deposit your Eth into Alchemics. Alchemics goes and deposits that into urine into other places, and then it gets yield on that Eth and to pay back your ether alone. And so then you can deposit, you know, 10-Eth into Alchemics. You can immediately borrow five-Eth

Starting point is 00:32:36 against that 10-Eth, and then that five-eth that you're borrowing will slowly pay itself back over time. So it's really just this magic tool. to deposit into ether into and then you wait and then you have more ether after you're done waiting. And so you get to bring your your eth interest forward in time basically and spend it now. Yes, exactly. Right. And so really for the for the eth bulls out there who are long term oriented, long term focus and our bullish eth no matter what, this is a great product for them because you already have eith. You put the eith in the alchemics and then you wait and then you have more eth later. And so if you're if you're if you're if you're if you're if you're if you're if you're if you're if you're if you're if you're

Starting point is 00:33:15 have a long time horizon this is the product for you. It's been a very anticipated release and now that's finally here everyone's super stoked had a little bit of a hiccup out the gate. There's a little bit of a bug and in the in the in the code. Nothing terribly critical. But basically the initial depositors were able to borrow al-Eath and then also withdraw their collateral. And so that's bad. So they They paused the contract. Funds are safe. No one really lost any funds. But they pause the contract.

Starting point is 00:33:47 They fixed it. I don't know if they've redeployed it or not. But basically, here's the section that I think is worth reading. How are we going to put this right? First off, we know that we have the most amazing community in Defi. This is an indisputable fact. We are asking, if you would like to support the protocol,

Starting point is 00:34:03 the Dow and the devs, please consider distributing any excess ETH gain during this time to the new transmuter. Right. And so some people were able to withdraw their collateral before their debt was repaid. And so a slight, a slight like incorrect order of operations with how alchemics worked. And so that's what they're asking to do. If you benefited from this, please go put your ETH back. If you want to be a white, accidental white hacker, I don't know. But at the end of the day, this is just, I think, going to be a small hiccup in the rollout of Al-Eath. It doesn't really affect the protocol in the long term.

Starting point is 00:34:37 nothing about urine was impacted either. And so congratulations to Alchemics for getting Al-Eath out the door. Sorry about the hiccup. I believe in you guys in the long term. Yeah, agreed. That's a good take. Let's talk about this, too. We talked about index co-op early.

Starting point is 00:34:54 Time to get in bed. What is bed? So, you know, we've made no secret that we're bullish on kind of three different, two different asset classes and three sort of sets of assets entirely. the two asset classes are crypto money and the banking infrastructure on top so defy protocols primarily right so crypto monies and the bankless thesis are bitcoin and eth and defy protocols of course are the defy tokens and you can buy them all at once without having to guess by doing something like purchasing the dpi index which is super cool now the bankless Dow and index co-op are combining forces to give you one asset

Starting point is 00:35:33 that puts that smooches that portfolio together in a third Bitcoin, a third ETH, a third DPI. So you could buy one token and kind of forget it. This is something that you and I have been excited about for a while. We actually proposed this on index co-op governance form. Like, hey, you should make something called a bed index. What does bed stand for? Bitcoin, ether, defy. And now the bankless Dow and index co-op are actually bringing that to market.

Starting point is 00:36:00 So vote passed through index co-op to go. work on that, bring that to market. I think it should be just a couple of weeks away, but it's super cool to see two DOWs working together to come up with a new index, a new financial primitive. And I'm excited to talk about this in bankless material, because I think it's a great way for people to get started on their crypto journey with some investment exposure that doesn't involve a whole bunch of garbage that they might end up buying if they're just looking for short-term pumps. There's so many things to talk about here. You hit on one, which is Dow to Dow collaboration, just two Dow's making products.

Starting point is 00:36:40 And so Dow's don't necessarily have to go to the outside world. They can just talk to other Dow's to make really awesome products. The meme is absolutely fantastic, sleep comfy. We're going to have fun at that. Right, absolutely. Bitcoin and Ether, the two crypto monies and then also DPI, the set of tokens that are capital assets, cash flowing assets really gives you the full spectrum of what Ryan and I consider to be the most quality crypto assets in the entire space. You know, there's really only two ecosystems with full

Starting point is 00:37:09 blocks. That's Bitcoin and Ethereum. And then there's really only other, the tokens that are out there that are cash flowing tokens are the tokens that are inside the DPI. And so you can sleep comfy in bed. And I'm really excited for the bankless and Dow to get these streaming fees coming out of this index. And so the streaming fees is being split between co-op and bankless Dow. So, you know, the market cap of the bed index and the same way the market cap of DPI take streaming fees and it gets split between DFI pulse and index co-op. Same thing. The more people that own the bed index, a small streaming fee gets redirected towards the bankless Dow and the index co-op. And I'm really excited for the bankless Dow to put on

Starting point is 00:37:51 its like marketing hat and salespeople hat, right? And because the bankless Dow also super organized. I don't know if you've been in the in the listener who's been in the discord or not, but it's one of the most organized and like exciting and vibrant discord channels there are. And what happens when like we, the bankless Dow has this product to really like market. I expect to see a lot of bed memeery on crypto Twitter coming soon. On chain cash flows. That's the story. Very cool. Let's talk about Lira, David. So Lira is D5's first complete options automated market maker. So this. This is another options protocol coming to Defi, but this one's a little bit different because it uses some different compute.

Starting point is 00:38:37 It's using like a Black Shoals pricing model. And apparently this sort of thing was super expensive, impossibly expensive to deploy on something like the Ethereum Mainnet. So they're deploying it in layer two. A product, a primitive that didn't make sense, an options primitive that didn't make sense on Mainnet being deployed directly in optimism on a rollup. that's pretty exciting, that's pretty cool. This is just being announced.

Starting point is 00:39:02 It hasn't rolled out yet. I think it's also waiting for optimism. But I've seen the UI. I'm super excited about what they're bringing to market. Just like the possibilities that layer two unlocks for Defi. I really think Options is a new frontier of defy that I expect to be built out in the next six months. I remember it was right around our first Ethereum Bulls podcast episode

Starting point is 00:39:26 in November or December. and right when Ether was really making new highs, its first new highs since like 2018, I was like, damn, I should buy some options. Where can I go get options on Ether? And the answer was centralized exchanges that doesn't take U.S. customers. And so I couldn't.

Starting point is 00:39:41 D-D-X? D-YD-D-X? I mean, without a, yes. That's margin, though. That's not options. Right, true, true. Right. And so I went on to Deribet,

Starting point is 00:39:49 and I was like, oh, let me get in a Deribet account. Like, oh, I can't do U.S. citizens. Damn. And so I was like, well, what DeFi app? Can I get my options on? what's up? And turns out options are actually kind of hard to do on the main chain. So it's definitely a good product market fit to put on a layer two. Kind of wish that this was available when ether was $600 because I remember talking about roommate is like Hunter, Hunter is my roommate.

Starting point is 00:40:12 I think that ether is going to be $4,000 by May. If I had got those options, it would have been perfect. I said 4K by May. I said 4K by May. I will get him to corroborate this. He was teasing me. like dude I bet you wish you bought those options now huh and I was like damn right you are um wow yeah no options are going to be hot and especially defy options uh you know think about composability with this as well like what what happens if you can tokenize an options position that's kind of cool yeah it's a big space and once again enabled by layer two which is super cool um speaking of layer two sidechain world paul brodie so this is ernest and young he leads their blockchain uh area um super pumped to share

Starting point is 00:40:57 that Ernest and Young, E&Y, is now delivering tokens on Polygon. Really cool. They're getting into the layer two side chain scene. A big for a counting firm is deploying tokens on side, on top of Polygon at layer two. Like, let that sit in your brain for a second. That's pretty cool. Yeah, it is, definitely. Volimex Finance.

Starting point is 00:41:19 Version 1 is now live on Ethereum Maynet. David, I haven't checked this out. Looks like they got a cool video, but what's Volimex? Volume X, it looks like it's a tokenized project to tokenized volatility. So it reminds me of the VIX index in the traditional finance world. Now we have tokens that track the volatility of other assets, right? So, you know, ether volatility, you know, maybe, you know, AVE volatility, Uniswap volatility. We can bet on the volatility now. Yeah, you can bet on volatility. Right, exactly. You know, really important, defy primitive. And just another money Lego that probably has a lot of surface area to, latch on to other money Lego. So that's going to be pretty cool. Live on Mainnet. Yeah, here's an article where you can read all of the details behind that too. Gitcoin, grants round 10.

Starting point is 00:42:06 Let's fund public goods together for the 10th time. Super cool. That launched actually on, let's see Wednesday of this week and is live 650K in matching for this grant round. Anything you want to say about that, David? Yeah, this is actually the first grant round that bankless will not have. a grant. We are now Gitcoin alumni. Yay! And so thank you to all previous bankless and donators to Gitcoin. We now consider ourselves not really needing donations anymore.

Starting point is 00:42:37 And to some degree, that was a large, a large part of the confidence that we had in bankless at large. And I know with me and my writing, I used to have my own Gitcoin as well. People can prove out that they have product market fit on Gitcoin, right? And so it not only is it an initial cedar of capital from donations, but it also lets people be confident that the product that they have is actually desired by the community. I know that I left my previous job to do bankless sooner as a result of the signal that I got from from Gitcoin. So thanks. Yeah, I would say I would say, look, bankless probably wouldn't exist without Gitcoin. I mean, there's some dark times in like 2019 where I was like, uh, is anyone really reading this whole bankless thing? This is before we even started

Starting point is 00:43:23 the podcast and it was just kind of a slog. And Gitcoin really gave me the confidence to kind of continue writing that the community was supportive of this whole thing. And without Gitcoin, I don't think bankless would be here, certainly not in its current form. Yeah, I don't know what you used to write every single edition of the newsletter at the very start. Yeah. And yes, exactly.

Starting point is 00:43:45 And like, there was a lot to it. And growth was kind of slow during the early days. Everyone thought defy was dead. Ethereum was dead. all the stuff we were talking about didn't matter. And yeah, the community support really made a big difference. So shout out to Gitcoin. Thanks, guys. Public goods. Now we have a self-sustaining media company on top of like bankless goals and on top of Ethereum. So speaking of media companies, David, someone else is launching a podcast. What's this podcast? Yeah, this is Alexandra Boutez.

Starting point is 00:44:18 She is a chess streamer, a pretty big chess streamer on Twitch. And she famously had Vitalik Buteran on to play chess with him one time. She's really good at chess, so she absolutely spanked Vitalik. But it was a fun piece of content. And it turns out she's also in the background been learning about Ethereum. And so now she is making more content specifically about Ethereum. And so she has an Ethereum developer friend, Torfer Benson, and every other week she's going to be streaming about Ethereum stuff. So more Ethereum content in the Etherverse. A big fan of that. I consume basically every single piece of Ethereum content that's out there. And so I'm ready to expand into new territory.

Starting point is 00:44:58 So, Alexandra, thank you for contributing to the world of Ethereum content. Absolutely. Maybe come on bankless soon. Maybe we'll have some content opportunities too. All right, David, some drive-bys on the releases front. D-Y-D-X perpetuals, they are now listing Matic on D-YD-X. So super exciting. Of course, D-Y-D-X is now fully deployed on Layer 2 as well.

Starting point is 00:45:19 So gasless transactions. what's the next one here David? USDC live on Arbitrum. It's got its own contract address on Arbitrum. And USC on Polygon is already above $2.3 billion in a market cap. And so Pete Kim, who I believe works at Circle. Is that true? I don't know.

Starting point is 00:45:39 Or maybe Arbitrum. Coinbase. Coinbase. It works at Coinbase. And he says, with all these scaling solutions going live, the summer of Defy, season two, is already here. I'm feeling bullish at a. somebody is subscribing to the DeFi summer thesis. Cream Finance is subscribing to it.

Starting point is 00:45:58 Looks like they are launching their money markets on Arbitrum as well. So everyone pouring into layer twos, everyone pouring into roll-ups just like we thought it would play out. Can't wait for these things to fully open up those coming soon. Parcel, introducing parcel treasury management for Dow's. It looks like this is a new service to help Dow's work with their own capital. and also reward people that work for the DAOs. And I think really just the message here is that there's more and more infrastructure coming for DAOs every single week.

Starting point is 00:46:31 Yeah. And WIREN is one such DAO. They're actually pioneering. They're developing their own infrastructure. We use a number of their tools, but they are giving a facelift to WIRE, an entire user interface facelift. And honestly, I love WIRED, but I think it needs a facelift. It needs this the most.

Starting point is 00:46:51 It needs this the most out of all of the largest DFI protocols, I would say. And this is starting to look good. So look for that coming soon. David, that is releases. Let's get to the news, shall we? Let's do it. All right. Bitwise, 70 million from Wall Street investors, including Stan Druckenmiller.

Starting point is 00:47:10 Pretty impressive. What is Bitwise? I know we've had them on bankless podcast before, but for those that don't know, what is Bitwise? Yeah, Bitwise has one foot in the financial advisor camp. one foot in the crypto camp and is now doing a very good job expanding into defy as well so bit wise has a bunch of index products they have the bitwise you know big market cap the top 10 crypto asset market caps we reported on that not too long ago when polygon broke into that bitwise top 10 crypto assets they also have the bitwise defy index and a number of other indices as well and so

Starting point is 00:47:45 they are really bridging the gap between you know home like family offices and personal financial advisors trying to educate them and onboard them as to the merits of crypto assets and also defy. And so Bitwise just raised $70 million, not a small number at all, to continue this fight. And so that Matt Hogan episode that we did with the state of the nation was one of my favorite episodes. And that's kind of where we started chanting the chant that like financial advisors, they understand defy. They really like defy. It really lands well with them simply because it kind of fits into their mental models that they already have about how finance works. And so really excited to see bitwise like expanding the fold here.

Starting point is 00:48:27 Definitely. They're definitely going to be a bridge to traditional finance for, for Ethereum for DFI. Let's talk some other Ethereum stuff. This is the Polygon daily gas used chart. This is pretty incredible. Look at this ascent. There's another chart I want to pull up, which is, let me see if I can find it,

Starting point is 00:48:46 network utilization of Polygon, which, is kind of off the charts. Let's see if I can find that. Look at this, David. Network utilization. Yep, 98%. So Polygon has received full blocks for the last two to three days. So earlier in this podcast, I said that Bitcoin and Ethereum were the only ecosystems with full blocks. Polygon actually also has full blocks. I didn't include that earlier because Polygon's a layer two to Ethereum. But this is the first Ethereum layer two side chain, scaling solution, whatever you want to call it. There's debates and arguments. It's about what the correct label is. Basically, it's a scaling solution. It looks and feels like an L2. That's why I call it an L2. And it's got

Starting point is 00:49:26 full blocks. And so it's the first Ethereum suburb that is now sold out. Like everyone's living there. Like it's now the first saturated suburb of Ethereum. So that's pretty cool. And of course people, when a suburb gets saturated and there's lots of traffic, people complain about the traffic. And rightfully so, because when you're in a full block blockchain ecosystem, things get slower. There's congestion. You have a harder time getting transactions through. Gas fees rise. So Polygon initially when you started using it used to be basically free.

Starting point is 00:49:59 Gas costs, Matic tokens, of course. But now I think that's no longer the case. You have to sort of bid more Matic tokens in order to get a transaction through. So it's a different user experience. But yeah, the story here is a suburb is of Ethereum is filling up. And we're starting to see full blocks already. on some of these side chain networks. Kind of cool, kind of interesting to watch.

Starting point is 00:50:22 There's a ton of things to talk about. Like, first off, already full blocks on an L2. Well, maybe the listener is like, well, damn, I thought it was a scaling solution. It's already saturated like WTF. Like, what's up with this? At the end of the day, the amount of block space that Polygon has versus Ethereum is like, I can't remember the specific numbers, but I think it's like 10 to 30x, right? So I think it's closer to the 30x range, whereas there's literally 30 times as much capacity.

Starting point is 00:50:47 than the Ethereum main chain. And so while the blocks are full, transactions are still really, really cheap. They're still under a penny for a transaction, and they happen in like one to two seconds. So it's still scale, but now there's, now there's, we just know that there's demand. And that's the other part of the story is.

Starting point is 00:51:04 It's very obvious that there's a ton of demand for L2s. This is in stark contrast to the Lightning Network, which has been really, really slow to adopt and grow. And Ryan, kind of why you had that Lightning Network rant early in the show, Like, no, we know that people want L2s. We know that they work. The demand for them is reaching 100% of its capacity.

Starting point is 00:51:24 And the other cool thing about the story is that Polygon validators are now receiving a decent amount of rewards in Maddok tokens. And so just like Ether Stakers are going to be receiving Ether on the main chain, Polygon and Maddo Stakers are receiving MaddoRewards on the Polygon Network. And so this is a crypto economic system that is alive now with full blocks. That's where I start to consider these crypto economic networks to be a live system. So congrats to Polygon. It's going to be interesting when Arbitram launches to see how long it takes for their blocks to fill up completely. Right. And the interesting thing, we learned in the arbitram conversation we had with them is, let's say what they're calling Arbitram 1, the first roll-up, they release an Arbitram technology.

Starting point is 00:52:06 Let's say that gets full. What do you do? You release the second one. You release a third one. You can keep doing this until the Ethereum main chain is congested with like, Roll-up transactions, essentially. So we've got a lot of space here. That's the vision.

Starting point is 00:52:20 That's why we call it a roll-up-centric Ethereum. Yeah, exactly. Let's talk about this. So Mark Cuban has been experimenting pretty heavily with D-Fi. He put together this great blog post called The Brilliance of Yield Farming, liquidity providing and value in crypto projects. A lot of great insights. He also talked about, there's a small mention of a yield farm that he was doing inside of

Starting point is 00:52:41 the Polygon Network. I think it's a Titan was the Yield Farm. Titan in it. This is some kind of an algorithmic stable coin, David, and he was yield farming that and he's talking about it in the post. Well, unfortunately, Mark Cuban got rugpole, David, in the Polygon network. I call it rugpole shorthand, but it's actually more like a bank run of some sort. The algorithmic stablecoin mechanism just broke. And even using the term stable coin for these things is sort of, um, generous, I would say, because this is not a collateral-backed stable coin. It's sort of a meme energy Ponzi-backed stable coin. We talked about this in the past, and there are different mechanisms that work better for these things than others, but none of them have worked perfectly. None of them have worked long-term at all. So a very speculative liquidity pool he was dabbling in, and he got rug pulled with the rest of them. He says this, I got hit like everyone else. The

Starting point is 00:53:44 crazy part is I got out, thought they were increasing their total locked value, then bam. Bam meaning like money gone. I'm not sure how much, just a tiny amount for somebody like Mark Cuban, of course, but also a negative experience in DeFi in his journey. What are your thoughts? Well, these are the traps that you find on the frontier. And right, just to say, the reason why you say rugpole is because it went to zero. There was no malicious actor here. the crypto economic system fell apart. The incentives broke down. And there's a critique going out there from Hazoo,

Starting point is 00:54:19 which I think we're going to get to, where the incentives for these uncollateralized table coins are the same thing as like a Ponzi, right? And not a Ponzi scheme, because a scheme implies that there's an actor that does the rugpole, but a Ponzi game, where at some point the game is up

Starting point is 00:54:36 and everyone runs for the doors. And so here's what Hasu says. Apparently, Mark, called for that there needs to be some sort of regulation around the label of a crypto dollar or a stable coin because not all stable coins are the same. There's over collateralized stable coins with like die that has worked very, very well. And then there's uncollateralized stable coins, which literally zero have worked out for the long term. And so, Hazu is quoting Cuban here when he says, we need regulation decide who is allowed to call itself a stable coin. And then Hazu

Starting point is 00:55:08 says, the sad thing is he has a point. And the defy community only has its self to blame for that. The community has entirely failed at self-regulating what a stable coin is supposed to be. And then in a follow-up tweet, Hazu said, at every opportunity, I have warned that under-collateralized stable coins cannot work. Some of them can survive for a few weeks or months, but they all fail eventually leading to large financial loss for participants. Shame on everyone who still calls them stable coins today. mentions them in the same articles as USC, USD, D, etc. Instead of what they actually are pure Ponzi schemes. So, Hazu, with a scathing critique of uncollateralized table coins, and to his point,

Starting point is 00:55:49 we haven't seen an uncollateralized table coin actually work yet. And so that is the story of Mark Cuban, got his first, again, it's tempting to call it a rugpole, even though that's not the right word, but like, congrats Mark Cuban, you got your first, like, you know, your thing went to zero. Sorry, your thing went to zero. Yeah, absolutely. And like so, but here's the thing. So I read the kind of the Mark Cuban quote. And by the way, he said this in a passing way. So I'm not sure how much he really meant that we need regulation to decide who is allowed to call it. Like he also admitted, hey, this is a crazy spectral thing. I lost money. That's how it goes. It's like angel investment. Like you win some, you lose some. But like having regulation decide what is allowed to call itself a stable coin in defy is an absolutely terrible idea. Like, I. I get Haseu's point that, yeah, these things aren't really stable coins.

Starting point is 00:56:45 Like, they should be called something else, you know, because they haven't earned the stable coin quality yet. But like people who are in this know that already. I mean, like people who listen to bank lists, we know the difference between Elgo, uncollateralized stable coin and something like dye and then something purely centralized like USDC versus something like Rye. But to have regulators step in and put a whole bunch of regulation around the language that the ecosystem uses, bad idea. Really bad idea.

Starting point is 00:57:20 So anyway, maybe next time we have Cuban on, we'll talk about this a little bit, going to some depth here. I just, this is kind of how the industry self-pleases, to be honest, David. Like people get hurt. And then they're like, oh, we won't do this next time. Like, ICOs. Ouchy. Ouch, humans tend to avoid pain, by the way. That's something we've adapted to do.

Starting point is 00:57:40 Exactly. So this is all part of the market learning, in my opinion. We do not need regulation to tell us what terms to use. Hazer says that the community has entirely failed itself regulating what a stable coin is supposed to be. I still think that we have that potential to do that. And now is the time. I think Hasu is perhaps being a little bit hasty with saying that we haven't done it yet. He is.

Starting point is 00:57:58 And I think that a lot of people in the community have been educating on this. It's just like people saw huge APYs and they got greedy. You know, and this is kind of what happens. Anyway, all right, David, Instadap, $10 million raise new funding. What's going on? Yeah, Instadap is a middleware protocol that helps bridge different apps and just allows you to more efficiently transfer assets between them, raise $10 million, and also release the Insidap governance token.

Starting point is 00:58:26 And so if you are a recent user of Insidap, you may have a governance token to claim. Some AirDrop stuff going on. Goldman Sachs plans to offer Ether Futures. options to its clients as well. This is another bank entering into the crypto futures market. Ether, once again, being more and more institutionalized and financialized as a commodity money in the traditional finance world, which is something that we want to see if we are thinking that ether is actually going to be adopted as a global money. We're talking about synthetics and D-Y-D-X with an absolutely monster raise, a $65 million

Starting point is 00:59:03 dollar series C raise. This is a team that has already expanded into layer two and this round was led by paradigm. David, DydX seems like they are in it to win it. What are your thoughts here? Congrats to DYDX. It's been one of the longest standing DFI apps around. I'm going to go ahead and say that there's a token coming. I think there's a token coming. Seems like it. NFT world. What's going on with Pleaser Dow? Shout out. Pleaser Dow. Shout out. out please or doubt please or doubt it keeps on going to bat to buy these ridiculously expriced you know internet culture nfts they just bought the doge nfti for a whopping 1,696.9 this little guy this this cute thing this this cute thing this this is worth 1700 eth 1700 eighth the ogy doge photo right

Starting point is 00:59:57 and like the other cool thing about the story is a ryan go down to the bid's history the first bid came in at 725.420, 6969.69, 69, 69, Eth. And then that got got bit up by 7,0.619. Please your doubt. Look at this. It's, it's all meme numbers. 1,6969 got beat by 169.420, which got beat by 1,2204.2.2.89, which got beat by 1,337. Look at this guy. Don't you feel bad for a $2 hot dog? Doge? $2 hot doge. And then the second to highest bid was 1,420.137Eath, which got beat by the winning bid of 1,696.9eth. So the bidding itself is actually a meme, which is absolutely awesome.

Starting point is 01:00:52 Who owns this? Please or Dow? No, no, I know. Who owns it now? But who is the creator? Is this like, the owner of the original Doge? No way. And look at this.

Starting point is 01:01:03 this is what's cool, resale royalty. So anytime, like, if Pleaser Dow sells this in the future, the original creator gets a 10% royalty on that, too. Pleaser Dow is just sucking up all of the coolest, most expensive beams in this base, and they are also yet to lose. They are undefeated with buying NFTs. So congrats to Pleaser Dow.

Starting point is 01:01:26 You know what's funny, David, though? It's like, I remember you didn't think there was much behind NFTs not too long ago. Right? Like, so like, what's changed for you? Because is winning all of these NFTs a good thing if they're actually like silly pieces, like JPEGs that you can copy and paste? I want to know what the evolution of David's thought process on NFTs is because now you're a member of Pleaser Dow. It sounds like you're bullish on this. Is it like the collective purchasing organization that you're bullish on or are you actually bullish that this picture of a dog is worth

Starting point is 01:02:03 1,700 Eve. No, it's not the picture of a dog at all. It's owning a piece of internet history. That's what's so awesome. I'm definitely find myself a defy guy, not an NFT person. I don't speculate on NFTs myself, but I'm very happy to be part of a Dow that is literally buying pieces of internet culture and claiming it for themselves. That's what I'm interested in. And so there's a decent amount of leadership inside of Pleaser Dow that all I'm kind of a relatively passive member. I just put my capital into the Dow and say, hey, guys, here's some money. Go buy NMCs with it. I really didn't even put all that much in.

Starting point is 01:02:38 I kind of wanted to be in the Cool Kids Club. But Pleaser Dow is straight up owning deep cultural pieces of the internet, and I'm here for it. It's part of the Cool Kids Club, but it's also like the way you learn. It's the only way you learn is by participating in these types of groups and actually doing it yourself. So it's super cool. I wonder what they're going to do with all this, like open a museum or what? They got plans, and those plans are going to come on bankless at some. point in time.

Starting point is 01:03:02 Oh, we've got to talk about that. Hopefully. All right. Let's get to some Bitcoin stuff. The World Bank reject El Salvador's request to help them. El Salvador, I guess, went to the IMF and said, hey, could you guys help us implement Bitcoin because they needed some assistance in a few ways? And the World Bank came to them and said, no.

Starting point is 01:03:19 No. Why? Because Bitcoin has environmental shortcomings and transparency shortcomings. So we're not going to help you, El Salvador. Yeah. That's a Nick Carter would say that these are two. things on the Fudd dice, you know, environment and transparency. I can't think of a more transparent system than a public blockchain, so I don't really know

Starting point is 01:03:38 what they mean there. But the other take here is that the powers that be are not helping Bitcoin get adopted. Yeah, I don't think they like El Salvador's move here. Paul Tourer Jones. He talked about Bitcoin diversification this week or crypto diversification, particularly in the lens of inflation, coming inflation. He said that people should have five percent. of their portfolio allocated to Bitcoin as they face the threat of looming inflation.

Starting point is 01:04:08 5% didn't seem too long ago where that number hedge fund advisor, well, first of all, they were talking 0%. No one was recommending this. Then it was like 1%. Now it's 5%. Pretty interesting from someone like Paul Tudor Jones, who is a respected figure in institutional investment circles on Wall Street. Any thoughts here? Yeah, the really the interesting thing is that he says that unlike human nature, this cryptocurrency Bitcoin is 100% certain. So high conviction from Paul Tudor Jones. Also, but you have to kind of understand, like, if it is a 100% conviction, why isn't his portfolio 100% Bitcoin? Hmm. Oh, you just triggered another meme, David, which is open up the door. So here's the shifting eyes gnome meme where Paul Tudor Jones says, I like 5% of my wealth in Bitcoin.

Starting point is 01:04:57 And then there's me. And then the shifty eyes, no meme is in. implying that like, oh, I got way more than 5%. My portfolio is Bitcoin. I think millennials do. I think Gen Z does. I know we've got some takes about that later, but, yeah. There's your second meme Easter egg. There we go.

Starting point is 01:05:17 Micro Strategy unveiled another billion dollar stock offering. It says the proceeds can be used to buy Bitcoin. Another week, another micro strategy. This time they're getting into more esoteric financing. They want to get as much cheap fiat as they can to purchase Bitcoin through any means necessary, that's what micro strategy is really turning into. It's pretty interesting that Michael Saylor is doing this and being so blatant about it. Yeah, it's pretty crazy.

Starting point is 01:05:40 It used to be like we want Bitcoin on the balance sheet to protect our company from inflation, and now it's we want to turn micro strategy into a holding company for Bitcoin, just absolutely completely blatantly. We'll see. Micro Strategy is about to blast through that 100,000 Bitcoin supply mark on the balance sheet. Like, let's see where they end up. Like, do you think he makes it? all the way to 200,000. I have no clue, but like, he's gunning for it.

Starting point is 01:06:04 200,000 is a decent portion of supply. Yeah, of 21 million? Absolutely. Yeah. David, I think you just unlocked another meme. Here we go. 2010, this is a meme out of our Bitcoin. 2010, no one uses it. 2012, only computer nerds use it. 2013, only drug dealers use it.

Starting point is 01:06:22 2014, only money launderers use it. 2017, only gamblers use it. 2019, only a small percentage of the population uses it. 2020, only small companies use it. 2021. Only small countries use Bitcoin. What happens in 2022. We will find out. Wow. Nice. All right, David, sorry. Kill that. Awkward pause. Okay. Okay. On the regulation in crypto banks front, David, Coinbase listing, Shib, this timeline is both amazing and horrifying, says Anthony Sassano. So, Shibb, So Shib is one of those doggy tokens.

Starting point is 01:07:09 The leading doggy token. Definitely Ponzi meme coin territory. Coinbase listing them. I remember in 2017, 2018, Coinbase had an entire framework that it went through before it listed a tokens. Has that just fallen by the wayside? Like Coinbase just...

Starting point is 01:07:26 Okay. I guess why. So like, one, are you mad about this? Does this annoy you? Does this anger you? So the reason, why that framework came about was in 2017 a bunch of ICOs were actually securities and so they needed to put that framework out there to like as a defense like you know here we're doing our best to like only list legitimate assets and so like that kind of just got relegated to history and now that coinbase doesn't really need to defend itself against anything anymore because the SEC is not really coming after them so they shib it's not really a security now it's just kind of this this this whatever token to some degree like coinbase needs to serve demand and if there's demand to trade ship then like it's coinbase's drop to allow that to happen.

Starting point is 01:08:09 At the end of the day, there's no further analysis to Shib token. It's not like we can go and do a deep dive as to the fundamental analysis of Shib token. It's just a doggie token. And so as far as like promoting the legitimate sides of this industry, this is not doing that. But like if there's demands, then like, F it, I guess. Like do whatever, Coinbase. Do they have a role in protecting investors, protecting their users? or do you think it should just be like, you know, hey, if you demand it, we should list it free markets?

Starting point is 01:08:40 Do we get to talk about how awesome uniswap is to be able to provide liquidity to any asset and then knock Coinbase for listing any asset? Like, is that? I think it's a great point. So, like, I think this is a great point and something that I struggle with. But, like, one thing I do know is I don't blame uniswap at all when you remove the ability to actually say this is allowed and that's not allowed. and you just say it's a completely open and permissionless, anyone can list. That absolves all responsibility to me. And that is like a fair mechanism.

Starting point is 01:09:14 Where I have more trouble is when a gatekeeper can arbitrarily say, yeah, this asset's okay, but this asset, no, that's a no, no, and act in a sanctimonious way about why they're saying this asset's okay and that asset's not. Do you know, like we're not listing this to protect investors, but we're willing to list this other thing. Right. Right. So I don't have a big problem with Coinbase listing this, I guess, free and open market.

Starting point is 01:09:38 But I'll be looking into the future to see if there's kind of double speak about like protecting investors. And I do think the best model for all of these exchanges is not to have the ability to gatekeep. And of course, you can't do that on a centralized exchange. You have to be a gatekeeper. But on Uniswap, anything goes. And I think that's great. Coinbase listing an asset is kind of like blessing an asset, right?

Starting point is 01:10:05 Like people aren't used to complete crap being available to them. And that's one of the pitfalls that people come into is they go into Robin Hood and they type in any ticker and they assume that there's some sort of quality to that, right? Because it had to get through all the regulations in order to be able to be traded on public markets. People come into these crypto markets and kind of come in with that same mental model thinking that the spectrum of crap to quality is roughly the same spectrum that they find in traditional markets when really there's things that are way more quality like ultrasound money and then there's also the complete and absolute crap like people aren't ready to tossel and deal with this massive spectrum of quality

Starting point is 01:10:42 and when coinbase comes in lists shib it's giving it's it's it's blessings right like it's saying like this is a good asset like it's okay we're going to list it like we like this one but it's a goddamn joggy token like what the hell like i'm privy to both arguments yep so my i i understand both sides of that one Let's talk about this. State Street is creating a dedicated cryptocurrency division. This is just another big bank. I think this is America's second oldest bank that is getting into crypto. I think that is really the story here, David. More and more are, let's talk about this.

Starting point is 01:11:14 Millennial Millionaires love crypto. Did you know that millennial millionaires have at least 50% of their wealth in crypto? That just blew my mind when I read that headline that's coming out of a recent survey that CNBC did a millionaire survey. 150 investors and noted that. That number surprises me. Well, are they, are they millennial millionaires because of crypto or they're millennial millionaires and now that they're allocating to crypto? Because crypto's made a bunch of millionaires. Can I answer that question? Tell me. Yes. I think it's both. I think they became millionaires because of crypto,

Starting point is 01:11:51 but also they're they're keeping their assets in crypto. Sure. Totally. This reminds me of a of a quote, which is going to be a little bit unsavory, but I'm going to say it anyways. German physicist Max Planck said that science advances one funeral at a time, or more precisely, a new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is more familiar with it. And so, millennials are slowly going to take over the world because boomers are just going to, you know, pass on and then the millennials are going to inherit all of the boomer money and it's all going

Starting point is 01:12:30 into crypto because millennials like crypto. This is what happens every single generation and I'm sure the children, the grandchildren of millennials will have their favorite asset class and I think crypto is absolutely crazy. Who knows? Who knows? Who knows what could happen? This last one, Panama, to present a crypto related bill in July, is this the next domino to follow? Follow El Salvador. that is. Cold War. It's coming up.

Starting point is 01:12:57 All right, guys, we're going to get to takes in just a minute, but before we do, we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible. Bankless is proud to be supported by Uniswap. Uniswap is a new paradigm in asset exchange infrastructure. Instead of a cumbersome order book system where trades are matched with other humans, Uniswap is an autonomous piece of software on Ethereum, which is what Ryan and I call a money robot. No human counterparties or centralized intermediaries, just autonomous code.

Starting point is 01:13:24 on Ethereum. Input the token you want to sell and receive the token you want to buy. Something brand new in the Uniswap ecosystem is the Uniswap Grants program is now accepting applications for grants. We have been saying this for a while and we'll say it again. Dow's have money and they are in need of labor. If you think that you have something to contribute to the Uniswap Dow apply for a grant to Uniswap. Just look at the size of the Uniswap Treasury. It's almost $3 billion. This mountain of capital is looking for labor. Do you have something of value to contribute to the Uniswap Dow? No matter how big or small your idea is, you can apply for a Unigrant at Unigrants.org and help steer Uniswap in the direction that you think it should go.

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Starting point is 01:15:29 Gemini.com slash go bankless. All right, guys, we are back with the hot takes of the week. The first take I want to get into is a take after reading this very long article, fantastic research article called MEV. That's minor extractable value or minimum extractable value in ETH2. There's a lot to this article. I don't want to get into it. But here's the key point. in eth two m evi goes to stakers david and i feel like this is a huge element of for ultrasound money that we just don't talk about and they actually go through some numbers here right so when we talk about ultrasound money and uh ethereum issuance in in eith two dot o kind of going to validators um we don't talk about minor extractable value we talk about transaction fees we talk about

Starting point is 01:16:19 issuance, but minor extractable value, M.E.V or minimum extractable value actually goes to validators too. And if you're to take all of the M.EV from flashbots today and kind of model that out and give that to validators now, the current APR of ETH, if you start staking it in the beacon chain right now, is about 7%. But with MEV on top of that, it increases to almost 13%. So 12.86%. So that's almost a doubling, like close to a doubling when you add MEV on top, which all of this to say, when you add MEV, I feel like some of our ultrasound money case was actually a little bearish on the numbers. Like, we've made bearish content? What? I mean, just validators might make a whole lot more money. And APYs could be a whole lot higher if you take into account MEV. And we

Starting point is 01:17:17 don't actually know what that number is, but the minimum bound is like a potentially doubling of the issuance that's available to them today. So that's pretty crazy. M.EV is a really big problem, but one thing that gives me a little bit of relief is that MEV is this amount of ether that makes the blockchain unstable because of sinking, because of there's so much fight to capture that MEP. Go listen to the MEP panel that we had not too long ago to get more details on that. but at the very least, at least those MEV rewards go to the people that are protecting the network and the people that are protecting the network are intrinsically the people that are most bullish on ether of the asset. That's who protects the network. So at least there's that.

Starting point is 01:17:59 Yep, absolutely. Let's go to this next take. Frank Shapiro from the block says, I would say about 99% of cryptocurrencies are either under or overvalued, which kind of feels like a funny joke at first glance. But also, there's something, there's something to say here, right? Like, chip token, for example, I'm going to go ahead and put in the 99% in the part that's overvalued. And then ether, I will go ahead and put in the side that's undervalued. And that's really been the story of this entire industry since Genesis. There are really big diamonds in a ton of rough. And the amount, like, it's a struggle to learn about crypto. It's a struggle to understand this industry. And that's why coal gets mixed up with diamonds all the

Starting point is 01:18:45 Like people start shilling EOS. They start shilling like name coin or Bitcoin gold. And people like can't really understand it too. Wow. Those are some those are some tokens from 2017, 2018. You dug up, David. Yeah, totally. Yeah. They're gone now. I could say some more modern tokens if you really wanted me to. But like that that's really the story of like Bitcoin has been like having this narrative trouble with the rest of the world. It's being talking about how incredibly awesome Bitcoin is. And then people come into the industry. like, oh, but what about Bitcoin cash, though? It's cheaper, right? And so this is the story of our industry,

Starting point is 01:19:19 is that everything is roughly around this, playing in the same field, and some of these things are absolute coal, and some of these things are absolute diamonds. And it's up to you to determine which is which. Yep, you've got to figure it out. That's what the quest is all about. David, let's talk about this Kevin O'Waki tweet.

Starting point is 01:19:39 This is in response to a tweet you made. You said, we are an accumulation phase. Don't miss it. you're talking about price accumulating ether. Yeah, ether is an accumulation phase. And Kevin O'Walky says, I've secretly been accumulating friends this whole time. Aw.

Starting point is 01:19:54 That's sweet. And honestly, that's how you make it in this industry, not only by doing a good job and dollar cost averaging responsibly into the assets that you believe in, but also during times of accumulation, which we previously called these bare markets, but now I'm guessing we're now going to call these accumulation times

Starting point is 01:20:11 because apparently crypto assets just don't go down, at least not too low. Knock on wood. But Kevin Olockney says, during these times of accumulation when you're accumulating crypto assets, don't forget to accumulate friends. If you want to stay in this industry for the long term, it's important to go west with us. Go find a buddy, find an accountability. If you don't make it through the... Like, find a business partner too.

Starting point is 01:20:36 Find a business partner. That's what Ryan and I did. Hey. Yeah. It works for us. It's like fair market. Yeah. I mean, shared interests, friends, relationships.

Starting point is 01:20:44 We're all pushing this industry for it. This is a great time to build your network, build your crypto network. It's what he's talking about. In addition to having fun and making friends. Crypto can be fun. You just need some people to make some jokes with you as you do it. It's not at all like Wall Street, right? Not at all.

Starting point is 01:21:01 Okay. I guess you're responding to someone you're saying, maybe I should go to the top. Most of the innovation crypto is eventually just going to be known as finance. So we dropped the D from Define. We just call it finance. Somebody says, open finance. And you say, no, just finance.

Starting point is 01:21:16 Traditional finance will be called closed finance. And then this guy says, the future Wall Street, in quotes, will be known as crypto, Twitter. And then he said, this is going on the weekly roll up. Why did you say this, David? Why does this take speak to you? Yeah, Wall Street is this, at least from the outsider's perspective, Wall Street is kind of like this insular group of, you know, insiders who make trades and bets amongst themselves and shares alpha amongst themselves.

Starting point is 01:21:42 And they all went to elite, like you have schools, you know, and seems very permissioned, right. And then crypto Twitter is the opposite. It's crypto Twitter is Wall Street, but on the internet where it's open. Everyone is shouting all of their alpha as loud as possible, trying to get everyone to hear it. And so it's like Wall Street, but inside out. Also, this is Ryan Rasminson, who is the new DeFi analyst over at Bitwise. Bitwise, I just raised $70 million. Also, one of my in real life friends.

Starting point is 01:22:12 And so, congrats to Ryan for getting that defy job. He's a good follow. He's got a article coming on the bankless newsletter sometime next week. Very cool. All right, David, let's get to you what you're excited about. What are he excited about this week? Yeah, I'm excited. I'm in San Diego.

Starting point is 01:22:25 If you guys haven't figured out by my brand new empty apartment, I'm in San Diego now, so that's pretty cool. And I'm also going to try and start up this Ethereum meetup group for San Diego. So if you live in San Diego or the Southern California, area and you want to talk about Ethereum things in real life because crypto is taking over. We need to instantiate ourselves in the real world. One of my reasons why I came to San Diego is because the beer is really, really good here. So I am trying, I'm going to go host an Ethereum meetup in San Diego.

Starting point is 01:22:55 And so there's going to be a link in the show notes. If you are in San Diego and you like beer, let's go and talk about Ethereum over some beers. The other thing I'm really excited about is the Ether Bowl episode that is coming Not this Monday, but next Monday. We had Anthony Sedano, we had DC Investor, the two guests from the previous Ethereum Bowl episode. But Eric Connor got booted for being too bearish, and we could replace him by Cyrus UNessi,

Starting point is 01:23:20 former Risk at MakerDal. And I just really enjoyed that panel. We recorded that last night, Ryan, and that's coming out a week from Monday. Really stoked on that one. And I got three. I got a third one. This is third thing I'm really excited about.

Starting point is 01:23:32 There is a new show coming to the bankless program, and that is all I'm saying. but the other thing I'll say is that Ryan won't be there. I will not be there at all. I might not even watch it, David. I mean, I'll watch the recording. I'm just not going to promise to watch every single one live, but I'm super excited about this one.

Starting point is 01:23:51 I think it's going to be tackling a whole new niche in crypto that has been missing for a long time. So guys, stay tuned on this. When are people going to get some news? Is it going to be next Tuesday on Saturday? Next Tuesday on the state of the nation, we will drop the alpha. But yeah, it's going to be a new paradigm of crypto content.

Starting point is 01:24:09 New show, new podcast, you guys can subscribe to. I'm super excited about that. All right. Right. Want to hear what I'm excited about? I do. Tell me all about it. Look, it's just, I feel like it doesn't really matter what the markets are doing these days.

Starting point is 01:24:23 If it's going up, if it's flat, if it's going down, really doesn't matter because Defi keeps building. I really feel like at this moment, David, defy has reached escape. velocity. Like, we didn't always know that defy was going to work out, right? Or even that smart contracts were going to work out. Like, there was in the early stages, all we had was like Maker. And it was kind of a question of, hmm, is this defy thing going to reach any product market fit? Or is it going to be a niche? I feel like, look, man, we just filled up Polygon with Defy stuff. And some of it's crazy, right? Some of it's silly. But we filled up the Ethereum Main

Starting point is 01:25:06 chain with defy activity. Now we're filling up entire neighborhoods and side chains like Polygon. We have product market fit. All of these defy protocols have massive treasuries too, David. Like there's a lot of money sloshing around this space. Why? Because a lot of value has been created in this space. So that's self-sustaining too. And now with layer two, we have all of this new land this new real estate to stake a flag in. So all of all of these reasons, um, I think like culminate in this is the sense that defy is just going to keep growing. It doesn't matter whether it's, it's making mainstream news. People are talking about defy or the markets up or down. Like we're just going to keep building and, um, that's a really fulfilling feeling. The flywheel is in full effect.

Starting point is 01:25:55 There's like really nothing we need to do. The machines are just going to keep building. And we're going to have a better financial system on the other sides. So that's what I'm excited about. Historically, betting against Ethereum and now also Defy has been a bad bet. Absolutely. I'll continue to be. All right, memes of the week. It's the time, Ryan.

Starting point is 01:26:14 I think it's time for the meme of the week. As if this would be like the fourth or fifth meme of this show so far. But like the episode is meme themed. We actually have like seven memes. So here we go. Yeah, what is this one? What are you looking at? We're not looking at anything.

Starting point is 01:26:29 I should share it. Here you go. Here it is. Meme of the Week. What are we looking at, David? We are looking at that Star Trek meme, and it's the lady asking two friends. Are you guys friends?

Starting point is 01:26:42 And the lady is crypto-newbies. She's asking two Star Trek people. Are you guys friends? One Star Trek person is Bitcoin, and Bitcoin answers no. Yeah, the second Star Trek person is the theory of an Ethereum answer is yes. At the exact same time. I love it.

Starting point is 01:26:57 So true. All right. Next memes. Here we go. Sazel shaved his beard and he says in an effort to try and end this crab season. Crab season is sideways season. Crab season market action. I have made the ultimate sacrifice to the beer gods.

Starting point is 01:27:11 Heath may resume up only now. Anthony Sizzano knows how to market himself. He basically is just giving crypto Twitter a free meme format. His face. Yeah, his face. Yeah, it's the meme format. And crypto Twitter absolutely took the bait and made some pretty awesome memes. so let's go through them, Ryan.

Starting point is 01:27:30 Yeah, this is just a template. He's providing the crypto Twitter. Oh, God. Here's the Star Wars meme where Princess Leia is smiling at Anthony with a beard and then he shaves the beard and then that's Padme did. Oh, yeah, Padmei, not a Star Wars fan. And then Padmey looks at Susana without the beard and the smile kind of disappears. Love it.

Starting point is 01:27:51 Next one. Here is Crypto wife, a great meamer. You're going to have to, do you know this reference? Ryan? I don't know what this reference. This is a reference of a TV show. Yeah. Anthony is like sitcom dad with headphones. Now kids, just because Coinbase listed shib doesn't mean it's a

Starting point is 01:28:09 good investment. Talk to an adult if you're not sure. Dad, Sazzle. That's awesome. Here is the meme of somebody throwing up the P sign in front of the grave. The grave says Sazzle's beard and then there's Zazzle throwing up the P sign. And then here's

Starting point is 01:28:24 Sazzle in a Mario hat because of the mustache is absolutely fantastic. And this is not a meme. And that's the last one. So congrats to Anthony, another successful meme up in your pocket. Awesome, guys. That has been the roll-up. Of course, none of this is financial advice. Eith is risky. DeFi is risky. Crypto is risky. You could lose what you put in. But we are headed west. Thanks for joining us on the bankless journey.

Bankless - ROLLUP: (Mark Cuban Titan, Metamask Institutional, Alchemix alETH, BTC Lightning)

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