Bankless - ROLLUP: SBF Found Guilty | Solana Dominance | Celestia Airdrop

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey guys, a note before the episode today. On Thursday evening, that's November 2nd, Sam Bank Medfreyed was found guilty of all charges. So that's all seven counts that he was charged for. Now, we've recorded this roll-up episode before the verdict dropped. David's in Europe. He's likely asleep, so we haven't had a chance to talk about this. But I'm pretty sure I speak for him when I say, it feels so good to end this painful chapter in crypto. One year and five days ago, go, we hosted SBF on this very podcast on a debate with Eric Voorhees on crypto regulation, and it was an absolutely legendary debate. We arranged it after we heard from some friends that SBF was up to mischief in D.C. Apparently, they said he was greasing the pockets of lawmakers

Starting point is 00:00:47 and working with them on a crypto bill that would make D5 frontends virtually illegal. Effectively, this would be pulling up the ladder for decentralized finance and accruing more power for his exchange, for FTX, and doing all of this under the auspice of practicality. I remember the debate well, and at times it felt like SBF was almost giving us a lecture. We crypto-natives didn't understand how to work with governments. Our values weren't practical. They couldn't win. They were too rigid.

Starting point is 00:01:18 Here was a billionaire wonder kid who built one of the world's top exchanges in less than four years. What did we know about building business and getting things done in D.C.? This is the tone of the conversation. Equally, I remember Eric Voorhees with eviscerating arguments and monkish precision. He argued to Sam that crypto is an open, permissionless, financial system for the world. It's like the internet. It's like email.

Starting point is 00:01:45 Any society that rejects this technology is a society that rejects fundamental freedom. I felt like Eric's moral clarity pierced through the bullshit like a knife through butter. And David and I watched as SBF absolutely withered. under this approach. One thing struck me at the time. It seemed that crypto had made a grave mistake in entrusting so much to people like Sam who didn't share our values. It was so happy to trade them off in some calculated game of maximum expected value. But what I didn't know at the time was how grave that mistake would be. SBF during the time of our recording was actually covering up one of the biggest frauds since Bernie made off. By that point at the end of October in 2022, he had

Starting point is 00:02:28 gambled away over $8 billion in customer funds. I don't know what his long-term plan was. Maybe he was hoping for some way to last long enough to win it all back. Maybe he didn't have a plan. Maybe it was all hubris. But 11 days later, it would all start to come crashing down. I still, to this day, have no idea why he showed up to this debate 11 days before the fall of his kingdom. In fact, I think the debate itself may have been the spark that took him down. I mean, he must regret doing the podcast now. because in hours and days after the debate, the crypto community turned on him. There was this sense of betrayal, of high alert, and it didn't take us long to sniff out the truth of his fraud.

Starting point is 00:03:10 Massive credit to coin dust for breaking the story of the Alameda balance sheet. Everything followed from there. Now, he's declared guilty in a U.S. Court of Law, after hurting many people doing credible damage to this industry that we love. I'm thankful we have a legal consensus process in the U.S. that afforded a fair trial in due process. I'm thankful that justice has been served. The values of SBF, and many of those like him in 2022, were stage three cancer that we had to cut out at some point, because if they persisted much longer, they would have been terminal. I'm thankful for the bear market for giving us the opportunity. I know that criminals and scammers will visit our industry again in the future, and I hope those of us who live through SBF will be wiser the next time.

Starting point is 00:03:53 But above all, I think it's important that we remember the true hope of crypto. It's not in another set of bankers like SBF. It's in decentralized finance. It's in holding our own private keys. It's in running our own validator. It's in Ethereum. It's in Bitcoin. This is the real revolution.

Starting point is 00:04:13 This is the bankless revolution. And it's just getting started. Protocols, not people. Code, not kings. Let's get back to going bankless. Hey, Bankless Nation. It's the first Friday of November. David, what time is it?

Starting point is 00:04:32 Oh, Ryan, it's the Bankless Friday Weekly Roll Up, which is always an ambitious endeavor yet we persevere. Nonetheless, into the frontier with coffee, but I'm not having coffee because it's 8.54 p.m. for me. No, neither mind. We've ever recorded. Okay. Why is it so late?

Starting point is 00:04:46 Because you're in a different time zone, right? Yeah, different time zone. Also, I took a flight. I was in Amsterdam this morning. I'm now in Lisbon for East Lisbon. Flight was delayed, weather in Amsterdam, blah, blah, blah, new podcast set up. Here we are.

Starting point is 00:05:00 This is crazy. And we've got like a new setup today. So we've been tinkering around with that. So it's a lot to get the roll up to you guys. But we hope you appreciate it. We got a lot of topics to talk about. What's coming up next, David, is Gary Gensler. And he's coming after PayPal now.

Starting point is 00:05:14 Okay, PayPal. It's not even a crypto company, but they're doing crypto thing. So, of course, Gary is the cop on the beat as usual. So we'll talk about that. What else? The Celestia Mainnet is out along with the Celestia token, T-I-A-the-T-O-K-N. How much was dropped? What is the market cap of Celestia?

Starting point is 00:05:32 We're going to get to that. And of course, it's Solana season. I don't know if you've noticed Ryan, but the narrative around crypto-Twitter, around with Solana breakpoint going on, which is where I just came from. The Salana people are very happy right now. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:05:45 The season is in. Well, that's because sole price is going up. So we want to talk about why that might be happening. I want to get your insight today. But before we get in, we got to shout out our friends and sponsors over at Dopple. Dopple wants to whack all the doppelgangers on the head. What do I mean by that, David? Explain Dopple. Yeah, so there is just a litany of fishing

Starting point is 00:06:06 scams getting more and more sophisticated going around crypto so far. And I just ran into one, a doppelganger of our writer Jack, who went out to some organization saying, hey, we will totally write articles about you in the bankless newsletter, just pay us money. It's not the real Jack. It's not the real Jack. Doppel is somebody that goes out and dops all of the doppelgangers. These are not real words and prevents them from doing the things that would involve your customers, your app depositors, anyone from losing money instead of giving it to you for your product. And so if you plan on having a successful app or if you do have a successful app, you should go talk to Dopple. That's doppel.com slash sign hyphen up. There's also link in Shunas.

Starting point is 00:06:52 Fight the fishers. Find them back. There's a free trial with that too. If you click the link in the show notes. David, let's talk about the markets this week. Where is Bitcoin looking on the 15th birthday of the Bitcoin White Bitcoin? We just celebrated that on October 31st earlier this week. Tell us about the prices and we'll get to that.

Starting point is 00:07:10 Yeah, so up 2.5% on the week starting at 34100. The last time I checked at Bitcoin was 34-990. It's bounced off of 35,000 a handful of times, really trying to get up and above it and trying to hold it. It's flirted with being above 35,000. It's not totally ready yet, but man, it really wants to be there. Look at this. It's just, you know, that big candle on, I guess that was the 23rd of October around that time. Do you call that the coin telegraph candle?

Starting point is 00:07:38 Yeah. I guess that's what it was, the coin telegraph candle. But we've maintained. That's what's impressive about the last week or so is that we've maintained. So we're up 2.5% on the week. And let's talk a little bit, we're talking about Bitcoin about this momentous occasion. So 15 years is now 15 years. after the first publishing of the Bitcoin white paper by a guy by the name of Satoshi Nakamoto,

Starting point is 00:08:05 he released this white paper. The title of this is Bitcoin, a peer-to-peer electronic cash system. And it starts like this, the very first sentence, a purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution. And of course... It's called a bank. Yeah. The first bankless money system. We've got to celebrate that. And of course, within, I think, about 60 days, 64 days on January 3rd, the first block

Starting point is 00:08:35 of the Bitcoin blockchain was officially pushed out to Mainnet. So a short time later. And, you know, Bitcoin is doing its own celebration in the charts, too. Have you looked at this chart lately, David? This is the Bitcoin dominance chart. Okay? And I think this is really interesting to look at. we are about 53% Bitcoin dominance at this point in time.

Starting point is 00:08:59 Wow. That's really high. There's a market cap of all of crypto is 53% Bitcoin. Composed of crypto. Crypto is 53% Bitcoin. Wow. That's definitely higher than it's been in a really long time, right? Yes.

Starting point is 00:09:12 But also a lot lower than it used to be. Back in the heady days of 2014, Bitcoin was about 99% dominant. It was about 99% of all of crypto. And it's been down since then. But it's popping back up, okay? It's lows. Bitcoin dominance lows. It hit a low in 2017, late 2017, at the last peak of the bull cycle at about 37%.

Starting point is 00:09:37 Okay, that was a low on the dominance. And then a few other lows in 2022 of about 40%. Now it's back up to 53%. So Bitcoin on a tear in celebration of its birthday. But it's a two and a half year high for Bitcoin. Congrats to Bitcoin. Yeah, you know who else was congratulating Bitcoin, David? As is the person who was wishing Bitcoin happy birthday?

Starting point is 00:09:59 It's our secret person, a big Bitcoin fan. Gary Gensler, he tweets out. If Satoshi Nakamoto went as Satoshi Nakamoto for Halloween, would we be able to tell? That's his hilarious joke. Happy 15th anniversary, Gensler says, is Satoshi's favorite white paper that started crypto. And then he says this, David.

Starting point is 00:10:19 Then he says this. You're going to love this. Any crypto companies that are tricking, investors should start treating them to compliance with securities laws. Oh, he made it about him. I hate this man so much. Oh, the ultimate troll. I mean, you got to hand it to him, though.

Starting point is 00:10:35 That is a pretty good troll of the industry right there. Do you remember his April Fool's troll? No. He put on the deal with it glasses on his profile picture. No, he didn't. That you're currently seeing. He put the just deal with it glasses on. And to me, I was like, this isn't a troll. This is an admission of guilt. It made me so mad. He's

Starting point is 00:10:59 like trolling the crypto community. He's like, I just deal with it. Why are our bureaucrats, like, why are our unelected, like bureaucrats trolling us? Trolling us? Yeah. It's so weird. Where is that in the job description? I mean, this, this tweet is a troll. He is trolling us with his tweet. Any crypto companies that are tricking investors should start treating them to compliance with the securities law. Okay, but of course, Bitcoin's okay, and he's celebrating Satoshi Nakamoto. Unbelievable. This is Stanley. Stanley Drucken Miller, though, had a good quote about Bitcoin on the celebratory week. Do you want to hear this, David? Yes, please. All right, let me play it. Finally, gold and Bitcoin. Yeah, I'm 70 years old. I own gold. I was surprised that Bitcoin got

Starting point is 00:11:52 going. But, you know, it's clear that the young people look at it as a store of value because it's a lot easier to do stuff with. And 17 years, to me, it's a brand. I like gold because it's a 5,000-year-old brand, but the young people have all the money, or certainly the ones on the West Coast do. So I like them both. I don't own any Bitcoin to be frank, but I should. There you go, David. I don't own any Bitcoin to be frank, but I should. That is Stanley, Drunken Miller, legendary Wall Street investor, hedge fund, a billionaire worth about $6.2 billion. Too old for Bitcoin himself, he says. He likes gold. He respects the brand. I'm too old for Bitcoin. But, but, you know.

Starting point is 00:12:49 It's love it. This is so funny, because this is what we were saying all of last bull market. It's just like, as boomers hand down their wealth to the kids, it's going into crypto. Yeah. It's like, thanks, mom and dad. Thanks, grandma and grandpa. You know where this money's going. I don't have a house, but I'll have crypto.

Starting point is 00:13:08 Of course. Yeah. So, and of course, then in January 3rd is when the Bitcoin blockchain launch with this legendary headline from the Times, Chancellor on the brink of second bailout for banks. That's what this revolution has always been about from day one, David. A revolution to go bankless. Speaking of which... We're going to just end up repeating some of these bits of news in about six days.

Starting point is 00:13:32 Why not? Why not? Speaking of which, David, you want to tell us about the ETH charts for the week? Ith price. Yeah, not quite as exciting. Start of the week at 1790 up a 1% on the week over to 1810. Got up as high as 1860 this week. but overall just it's just quiet in Heathland these days. How about the ratio, David? That's not quite a down.

Starting point is 00:13:54 Yeah, I actually kind of wanted to kill the ratio, but like if I did it in this week, it would just be like, you can't do it this week because it's just getting slaughtered. You can't kill the ratio. Like never, never. Just from the agenda. Well, I don't, no, like I'm just saying like I don't know

Starting point is 00:14:08 if the ratio is relevant to many people. Like it's kind of what you and I think of. But I can't kill it now because it's down so bad. No, what, okay, okay. I'm not to say we can kill it. Yeah, if you killed it now, it would be capitulation. It would be embarrassing. Yeah, it would be embarrassing.

Starting point is 00:14:22 And by the way, I saw a tweet about this. I think someone tagged you and I, maybe that's what you're referring to. Vance Spencer goes, only plebs talk about the ratio. The ratio. Is that why you want to kill it? You don't want to be Van Spencer's pleb? I did not see that tweet, but I can understand the point of like, yeah, like, it's just a narrow focus of what crypto is.

Starting point is 00:14:42 I actually, I think we actually either kill the, ETH BTC ratio or we add the ETH Salana ratio, which I also don't want to do this. I don't think so. I actually, I think the ETH Bitcoin ratio is much more durable than people want to, are thinking at this point in the market. Chris Berniske likes it. Yeah. I think it's fantastic.

Starting point is 00:15:01 According to Van Spencer, Chris Berninski is a pleb. Do you hear that? You know what? Yeah. We could start some beef on the bankless podcast. I don't care. I'm going to keep, if you don't talk about the ratio, I'm going to talk about the ratio. I think it is still a very important metric and we should keep it in the role.

Starting point is 00:15:15 up. But let's talk about the cryptocurrency market. Yeah, market cap. What are we at on the week? Happy numbers. I think we were at 1.29 last week. We're at 1.34 this week. So there is some healthy, sustained growth in the total crypto market cap. I mean, that's what happens when Bitcoin dominance is like at 54%. David, tell me about some tokens that moved in the last seven days, one of which is the sole token. So 30% on the other's not a token. Okay, 30% on the week for the Salana token and 62% on the two weeks. So absolutely monster movement for for Solana. I think on the month, that's about 72% over the last 30 days. There's pretty crazy upside here. No, like Solana, the sole tokens, the Solana narrative is definitely taking a lot of the oxygen

Starting point is 00:16:04 out of the room this week. Over there, I've been at Salana break point for the past like four or five days. And generally as like a rule of thumb, when I open up my phone and I check prices and I'm like, oh, I'm about to refresh and the price is going to be higher. And then it is. And if you do that like six times in a row, that's when I start to call froth. And so I did that between the prices of like $40 and $44 of like, I'm just going to refresh it. It's going to be higher. That's froth. And so I mean, like it can like mellow out for a little bit and then go up later. But like, man, when you just know that you just refresh and it's higher and it is for five times in a row, that's when you know. That's when you know, things are getting frothy.

Starting point is 00:16:45 Is there an explanation for this? So this is from Van Spencer. We're just talking about him. He says this. Always surprised there are people who actually short crypto. I think he's talking about people shorting Solana. Look at the soul chart. Clearly, someone just got carded out.

Starting point is 00:16:58 In my opinion, most crypto shorts are people trying to run a Tradfai-esque long short book. They think we are playing in the NBA. Sir, we are playing slam ball in a bounce castle. Slam ball in a bounce castle. What's going on here, David? Is Vance implying that people are actually trying to. short the sole token? Yeah, well, this is what he's saying.

Starting point is 00:17:18 So $16 million of salon short. It's just like a lot of momentary buy pressure all at once, which is what he is saying is like one of the reasons why sole price is going up, at least going up so quickly and so violently. Like it's going up, it went up in just like so much in like four to five days. But it's also been going on for like two weeks straight. And so like this one person who just like got liquidated on the short side of things definitely is helping with the sole price.

Starting point is 00:17:44 but also I would just say like Salana narrative is just like really really strong right now which is because of the price which really like actually feeds back into the price it's just full season yeah tell me about the Salana conference so you're there feet on the ground so yeah what was it like what's what's what's the vibe

Starting point is 00:18:02 yeah so I went to the Salana conference to the Salana break point this is the third break point the first was in Lisbon Fun Factors is where I am now at 2020 2021 when Salana price was like $250 and apparently it was just like absolute just fest of money just flying everywhere. Somebody had some party had the cops roll up to the house.

Starting point is 00:18:22 And they were like, you guys can't have a party like this. And they were like, well, buy the house. And the cops was like, that wasn't a solution. Was that last? Are you talking about last year? That was 2021. That was like in December 2021. So like peak of the market.

Starting point is 00:18:38 Anyways. So this one, it was in Amsterdam kind of outside of the city. maybe like 1,500, 2,000 people that were there, maybe like 50, 50 community builders and investors, maybe more on the builder side. Definitely kind of felt like an inner circle of communities, a community that had banded together that all felt like, yo, we are sitting on something really, really powerful here and really, really cool. kind of felt like 2018 to 2019 Ethereum when like you, me and all the other Ethereum people are like, yo, like there's something here and everyone else doesn't see it and that's crazy. Except the Salon people know that that's happened once before. So like they, I feel like they have a little bit more conviction is kind of my hot take.

Starting point is 00:19:26 The archetype of people at the Salana conference is just like these low level engineers that understand the relationship between hardware and software. like at the point where hardware become software, like that intersection, like really low-level engineers, like X, SpaceX, X, Tesla, X, Google types. Yeah, I think that these are kind of all my hot takes, not even all that hot, just my, like, my sit-rept. Like, the reason why I wanted to go to the Salana conference, like, what the hell is David doing a Salana conference?

Starting point is 00:19:57 It just turns out, like, if you want to get a, like, a vibe check for what Salana is, like, you don't do it through crypto-twitter because the Salana people on Crypto-Twitur super toxic, which is perhaps like people like my fault and something I'm working on. So I just wanted to go like drink from the faucet myself. And so I recorded an episode of Austin from the Aslana Foundation in Anatoli. That'll be out on Tuesday, I believe, out on Tuesday. Yeah. Well, very cool.

Starting point is 00:20:27 There's also another big move around the week. It's not a token, though. It is a coin. The stock. So what's coin up to? And I believe as of our recording, because we're recording so late on a Thursday, the Q3 update, the quarterly earnings report for Coinbase, has just been updated. I don't know if that's reflected in the price of coin.

Starting point is 00:20:47 It looks like we're up in the post-market trading. But yeah, what's coin been doing lately? I don't know if it is up. It was up almost 9% today pre-market. And then as soon as after that's being, it dumped a bunch. It dumped a bunch. So yeah. So it's down post market, but okay, up 8.75% pre-market, down 4.5% postmarket. So still up like 4% on the day. I guess it didn't totally like the earnings, earnings report. But overall, I would say just not all that bad. I mean, it's up 4% in the day. So it was a good day. I mean, the coin price has been up just 5% on the week. So I guess pretty modest. But I think just I've seen more and more people.

Starting point is 00:21:32 just pay attention to coin lately. All right, let's turn to some bigger markets beyond crypto. Let's talk about US GDP because some members came in last week as well. So US GDP grew at 4.9% annual pay in the third quarter. That's a pretty big quarter. Look at this. That's large. It's kind of chunky.

Starting point is 00:21:48 So last quarter, Q2 is 2.1%. The quarter before, 2.2%. This is a monster 4.9% quarter. Compare that to, should I compare that to 2022 in the third quarter was 2.7%. 2021 with 3.3%. So pretty big quarter for GDP as far as quarters go, David. Big plus one to there's no recession happening. This is a big plus one to Fed is going to keep rates higher for longer because apparently the economy can take it. I like the idea of not having recession. That's good. Yeah, you're right about the Fed because they did hold rates steady.

Starting point is 00:22:29 So that was a decision that came in this week. They are holding, The Fed funds rate between 5.25% and 5.5%. This is the second meeting in a row that they have held rates study. Proceeding that, though, the last 11 times before the last two times, they increased rates. So Holden's study and Powell said that the Fed is not considering or even discussing rate reductions at this time, I guess, especially back on GDP for a quarter like that. So that's what the Fed is doing, David. And switching back to crypto, though, let's talk a little bit about liquidity. In particular, stable coin liquidity. This is a tweet from Nick Carter. What's he saying here, David? Nick Carter is calling the bottom of stable coin supply.

Starting point is 00:23:17 And if you've been paying attention to bankless for a while, we kind of think that stable coin supply in crypto is basically synonymous with liquidity. The number of dollars that we have in our industry is going to be a very strong indicator to how much in liquidity that we actually have. And so Nick Carter has the chart from the block just of all the stable coins out there. Tether, USD, BUSD, and all the other ones. And I mean, it's been down ever since Terra Luna. And it went down really, really fast with Terra Luna.

Starting point is 00:23:50 And then it's just kind of been slowly tapering out ever since then. It's been down. It's been down for like two plus years now. And it's looking like it's starting to go back up. And this is what Nick Carter is saying, is he is calling the bottom of stable coin supply. And if you believe that this is the bottom of stable coin supply, hence, ergo, that liquidity in crypto is up only. What happens when you have more liquidity in your assets? They go up in price is what they do.

Starting point is 00:24:18 More liquidity, higher prices. And so this has been something that we've said along with our Jim Bianco, a podcast. So it's like when you see stable coin supply trending upwards, you can be bullish. you'll have permission to be bullish. And so this is a bullish indicator. Yeah. So we are one step before we're starting to see it increased, but maybe it's bottom. David, I wouldn't be surprised right? About 120 billion or so in total staple coin supply. I would not be surprised if this market cycle, we hit a trillion. What do you think about that? Yes, I agree. I agree. Right. Because I mean, what's the one thing that has product market

Starting point is 00:24:52 fit in crypto? It's stable coins. Stable coins and treasuries, and particularly if you include treasuries and that as well. David, what do we have coming up next? Coming up next, SBF takes the stand. I'll give you the recap. Did he land? The Hail Mary, place your bets. I know where I'm placed my bets. Nick Carter versus the Wall Street Journal part two.

Starting point is 00:25:13 He is, he's got a bone to pick, and he has definitely picked it. And there's just going to be so much more. A $2.7 billion main net drops. We're going to get to all of these details and more. But first, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible, especially Cracken, a preferred crypto exchange for 2023. If you're getting bullish, you know where to express that. That's on Cracken.

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Starting point is 00:27:24 actually not our friend, but previous podcast guests. just say that. Sam Bankman Freed. He's on the stand. That is a the cartoon drawing. I don't think they quite captured his essence, I would say. He's drawing. He got so much blush on.

Starting point is 00:27:40 The hair's a little shorter. I don't know. The features are not quite the same. Yeah, the ears are a little engorged. But here he is. On the stand. What was he doing on the stand? All right? This is a follow up from last week where apparently Sam's

Starting point is 00:27:55 like thrown the Hail Mary pass. probably against all the advice of his lawyers, but maybe not. Maybe they're like, well, what does this guy have to lose? Put him on the stand. And so he gets up on the stand. What did he say, David? What on earth could this man say to us? Yeah, but first I really set the stage here.

Starting point is 00:28:12 If you go on the stand, you get to spout your truth because your lawyer, your own lawyer, will underhand you all of the right questions. It'll be perfect. You can just knock them out of the park. and then the prosecution gets a turn. So it's a bargain that you got to make. But didn't he have to do this, David? Didn't he have to do a pre-show with the judge?

Starting point is 00:28:33 It was just like him and the judge. They sent all the jurors out. I think that happened like last Thursday. That did happen. That was like an anomaly. They needed to like be able to determine which is valid to present the jury with. What was admissible in court? So the judge was like, yeah, okay, I'll let this go.

Starting point is 00:28:48 Right. And okay. And so then he went in front of the jury, which is what we're talking about now. Yep, exactly. Okay, so last week, again, going back on Friday, Thursday and Friday was when the defense, SBF's lawyer, was able to ask SBF questions. And so that was last Friday. We weren't able to cover that because we do weekly rolls on Thursdays.

Starting point is 00:29:08 So that ended in a cliffhanger because SBF took the stand and was questioned by the defense. And the vibe that I got from just a handful of people doing reporting on that day was that Sam was extremely prepared, obviously, actually did a good job of stringing coherent senses together and probably because he had his adderall and was overall able to produce a nugget of convincing compassion for his side of the story. So like this is the one moment where people were like, maybe he did just FAA.

Starting point is 00:29:37 Maybe there's a chance. Maybe there's a chance, right. And this all ended on Friday. So after Sam was able to kind of give a more glowing perception of himself, the jury went away for the weekend. They were able to sleep on that for like multiple days. What kind of things was these say? Like, oh, it's just, you know, growing pains.

Starting point is 00:29:57 I heard someone say. Or like, oh, I delegated too much to the wrong people. I kind of lost sight of what I was, how I was managing this. It was my subordinates. Yeah, it was really unfortunate. It was an accident. Whoopsies. I've learned a lot of lessons.

Starting point is 00:30:12 Yeah, right. So at the very end of Friday, the judge ends by saying, okay, we're going to resume with Sam on the stand on Monday. day with the prosecution doing a cross-examination to which, like to which the prosecution said something to the effect of, yes, we certainly will. It will be long and we are very interested in it. Oh, my God. Basically, the prosecution is like, let's fucking go. Let's do this.

Starting point is 00:30:36 Rolling up their sleeves. All right. We're doing this. Okay. And that was this week. So next week comes and the prosecution just gets to go after Sam Bankin-Fried. And the prosecution apparently just had like lay up after lay up to herself. Do you know what? As a prosecutor, I would be overwhelmed at like, like there would be too many options. Too many things on the shelf. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:31:03 Apparently there was just a number of times where like the prosecution asked Sam Bankitfried about like, did you ever say this thing in this way? And like it was such a specific way of asking the question where like the entire courtroom and all the audience was like, oh, she's got something. There's no way that Sam can answer anything without falling right into her trap. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

Starting point is 00:31:25 So just some of the themes here. SBF increasingly relied on not remembering, especially as the day went on. He said, I do not recall in his answers a 104 times and also answered, yep, 282 times. Wait, wait. 100. There was 1004. I do not recalls on one day? Yes, on one day.

Starting point is 00:31:47 It's a lot. Like, you know the Sam Bankmanfried? Yep. Yep. Oh, yeah. Yep. Like 282. Imagine, imagine listening to 282 SBF Yep's just on Monday.

Starting point is 00:31:59 No, I can't imagine. Shoot me in the face. Okay, so Sam denied that he and Caroline ever discussed the seven alternative balance sheets like Caroline claimed. SvF's version of the story was that Caroline just sent him one balance sheet and it was referred to as all seven, which they both found reasonable. She must have made up all the other six, huh? No. She just didn't show him one through six, of course. He said that he did not know about Alameda's problems.

Starting point is 00:32:24 He said Sam was surprised and concerned when he learned about Alameda's potential bankruptcy in June of 2022 due to a bug. And it had an $8 billion fee out liability to FTX. He was surprised to learn these things in June of 2022. Shocked. He said that there were risk management mistakes, said that mistakes were made at Alameda, not hedging against an investment in some Bitcoin miner thing. that lack of hedging allegedly led to a loss of over $10 billion. He denied the existence of a risk department at FTCS in Alameda,

Starting point is 00:32:58 and he claimed that he just trusted the wrong people, blame challenges like working at a startup. It was like building a plane while following it, he said. He was asked about how Alameda research was able to spend $8 billion of FTX customer deposits, and to which he responded, I deeply regret not taking a closer look into it. I'm not sure you're listening about that. I bet he regrets it.

Starting point is 00:33:21 Yeah. And when the lawyer pressed him about the specifics of the $8 billion, SBF said, money's fungible anyways. I wasn't particularly interested in trying to dole out blame over how and why the money was used at all. If there's one thing I know about Sam Bingman Fried is that he definitely thinks money's fungible.

Starting point is 00:33:38 It's like, oh, just like spend this money here and that money there. It's fungible. To be fair, I also think money is fungible, as you did. Right. It's pretty hard to argue with that line of, defense. But if I had an exchange, I would still consolidate accounts and separate them differently. It's not a good answer to the question of where's our $8 billion, Sam? Money is fungible. Well, money's fungible. You know, $8 billion is somewhere. It's fungible. Oh, man, I kind of wish I was

Starting point is 00:34:08 there for actually that day of court in particular. I don't know. Maybe some catharsis. Of all the days in the court, this one obviously was the most well attended. I think they have like three or four spillover rooms. Oh my God. I bet it was a circus. What the heck is this, though? We were just looking at one drawing of Sam Begman-Fried. This is a much more flattering version.

Starting point is 00:34:29 Is this also a real- Chad Bankman-Fried with an absolute chiseled jaw and like kind of scruffy hair? Looking buff. Who drew this? Are they looking at the same Sam? Yeah, it's much different than this version. That is a real court drawing of Sam-Bankman-Fried. Wow.

Starting point is 00:34:46 That's a very different image. These are different images. People are taking some liberties in the in the drawings here. All right. I want whoever to drew this one to draw a picture of me. Not in court, though. Yeah, you have to go on the stand for that, David. No, no. Okay. Fill us in. Nick Carter versus Wall Street Journal. Did they apologize yet? I haven't looked at this at all. So you're going to have to fill me in. Okay. But last we left things, the Wall Street Journal completely lies. about crypto being tied up with Hamas and completely exaggerated. They said something like $90 million worth of crypto was transmitted to Hamas. And it turns out it's something like 130 to 130. It turns out it was something like 450K, $450,000 when you go look at the blockchain data. Have they apologized for this yet?

Starting point is 00:35:39 So they did do this super flaccid retraction, I'll call it. It was a confusing retraction. It was a, it was a correction. And they just were like really vague about it. And so it was like technically they retracted, but they really didn't. Like all of the harm is still on the table. What did they do that? I'm not even sure they, what did.

Starting point is 00:36:06 Yeah, if you read what they say is just like confusing and doesn't actually provide any clarity about anything. It's just like they succumb to the pressure and they get to say like, look, we retracted. But then if you read it, it's like, you didn't, you just were confusing. This is a very confusing. This is a very long, Nick Carter is not satisfied. And so what did Nick Carter do? He announced that he's going to have $500 in Bitcoin bounties, open-ended bounty. So anyone can apply for this.

Starting point is 00:36:33 It's doesn't, like, there's more than one. For the 20, for 21 best open source analysis of the facts surrounding the Wall Street Journal, Warren, letter. He's actually given out 28 bounties so far. So he increased the 21 because Archim Intelligence also joined the effort to fund this. And so this has turned into a mutual pot to finance the investigation of truth around the details of Hamas's reception of crypto assets using the blockchain because we have this amazing tool called a blockchain that allows you to audit this. And so there's just been some incredible data that has come out from people, just open source investigation of, of the exact flow of funds that went to Hamas. So this is just one of many people,

Starting point is 00:37:22 of the people that have put an investigation together. It was very, very detailed of Ryan, if you scroll down, you can kind of just show it. What am I looking at? Yeah, just like, this is just like a map of transactions, very thorough. It takes some skills to really put some of this together. So this one particular tweet that we're showing is one of 28, and I'll just read two lines here,

Starting point is 00:37:43 that this one particular person can, to the conclusion of where they said, according to the Wall Street Journal, wallets connected to Hamas received about $41 million over a similar time period, an arbitrary time period that the Wall Street Journal said, which was proven false. In reality, that account connected to Hamas has only received about $250,000 in total during that same time period. So just like really good grassroots investigation because Nick Carter and a few other people are putting up a pot of money to actually do real research, not like Elizabeth Warren cares,

Starting point is 00:38:15 because she's like doubling down. Wait, wait. So she's not apologizing then. She's not retracting anything. This is, we have got a clip of Elizabeth for it. I actually haven't looked at this. Did we play this? Last year, you wrote that, quote,

Starting point is 00:38:28 in their attempt to avoid being traced, illegal actors have adopted ever more sophisticated cryptocurrency technologies such as non-custodial wallets. Non-custodial wallets. You wrote that Hamas uses non-custodial wallets to evade detection. Do those words?

Starting point is 00:38:45 wallets pose a particularly high risk of attracting terrorists and other very dangerous people? Thank you for the question. It is important, perhaps if I may, just to refer to your earlier comments about the funding of Hamas. The major funding of Hamas, unfortunately, the current sanctuary regime is far from being sufficient, and most of its budget and funds are still going through the traditional channels. And I want to put that clear because crypto is a problem, but this is not the major problem. And we have to look. know, on other traditional channels like banking and exchanges and money exchanges and cash and so forth. So let's not...

Starting point is 00:39:22 Okay, here's an expert actually telling her that the problem isn't crypto. The problem is like the traditional banking system. Interesting. We have a second better clip. So let's listen to the next clip of the same person. Let's don't lose sight and focus from the big picture. Crypto is currently a very small part of the puzzle. The major funding channels are where and remain, state funding, Iran and others, those are the major players. Most of the funds are still being transferred by the traditional channels that we all know from the past.

Starting point is 00:39:58 Banks, money transmitter, payment system, Huala, money exchange, trade-based tourism, financing, charity, cash, shell companies, and crypto. The efforts should be global and focus on imposing global sanctions on Hamas and their sponsors, as was the case with ISIS. Well, there you go. Liz Warren just got told to calm down inside of Congress by the person that she was asking to basically, like, help her say that it's crypto. And like you mentioned this during the first clip, Ryan, like she's going after the self-hosted wallets. She's good.

Starting point is 00:40:34 She's trying to blame this on self-hosted wallets, which also, ironically, a lot of the funds, the actual funds, the $450,000 funds that went to Hamas, went through centralized exchange. Not even self-hosted wallet. That got frozen. She just wants an opportunity to just slam self-hosted wallets, bankless, bankless wallets, right? But this isn't the opportunity is the thing. There's no opportunity for her here. All of the cards are on our side. I'm just worried that when there does come a time when a self-hosted wallet is culpable in some sort of transaction, she's going to go right after it. Like, you know, like she's primed to do that. This was, by the way, that expert was Dr. Shalore. Lomit Wagman, who set the record straight on terrorism and its non-relationship with crypto. So excellent job there. So what's Nick Carter saying here, David, in this tweet? Yeah. Yeah. So this is another article about the same issue.

Starting point is 00:41:28 So the article says, since the Hamas attacks of October 7th, the most prominent public crypto fundraising campaign has been operated by Gaza now, a pro-Hamas news organization. However, only $21,000 in cryptocurrency has been donated, donated since October 7th. And thanks to the effort of crypto businesses and researchers, much of this has been frozen, preventing Gaza now from being able to use these funds. On October 9th, Gaza now sent around $2,000 of the donated crypto to an exchange, presumably to cash out, where it was promptly frozen. In addition, around $9,000 in stable coin donations were frozen by Tether, the stable coins issuer.

Starting point is 00:42:07 Crypto is the worst platform to do terrorism stuff. it will just get frozen because it's stable coins which are going to get frozen or centralized exchanges which are going to get frozen. Like again, all of the arguments are on our side here. No, no, no, I get it. I get the facts and circumstances this time around. I think in a future time, it could be just straight Bitcoin. It could be straight ether. It could be no ability to freeze it. Not disabled coins like die. Yeah. Yeah. And I just think that this, you know, apparatus, this kind of like push in D.C. from the anti-Crypto army is going to attack it. They're just waiting for it. They're primed to attack.

Starting point is 00:42:49 That's why I think that I'm so thankful that Nick Carter is like digging in the knife on this one because it shows the cards of how dishonest and how much of an agenda that is the most important part. So when in the future, when there's like rampant privacy everywhere on crypto, which is the version of crypto that I see, we will be able to go and it's like, you just hate crypto. I just don't understand. Like, yeah, look, it's meant Hamas is using the internet too. I mean, they're using TCIP, right?

Starting point is 00:43:17 Like, come on. They're using all sorts of technology. Technology is neutral. I don't know. That's an uphill battle with this group. But David, we are making some progress on one particular issue. And that particular issue is something that we brought up last week. Do you remember there was a regulatory fight with the IRS, again, coming from Elizabeth

Starting point is 00:43:37 Warren camp. anti-crypto army. The IRS had a massively anti-Defi interpretation of some regulations. And our role, as the bankless community, as a crypto community, was to comment on their comments page. Well, we needed 10,000 comments to extend the deadline by one year. And you know what we got, David. We got 25,000 comments. That's more than 10,000. This is a tweet. Over 25,000 comments have been received by the IRS regarding their broker rulemaking proposal, over 12,000 posted the docket on Regulations.gov, clearly a sign that something is wrong with the proposal. This is the most popular the IRS has probably ever been on its comment page.

Starting point is 00:44:23 And we did that. We played a role in that. So hopefully they are hearing the crypto community. They're hearing U.S. citizens loud and clear. Unfortunately, the last opportunity to comment about that was October 31st. But fortunately, many of you did because we got 20. And that is how we have our voices heard on this, on this particular issue. So what they choose to do with it is up to them. But we will keep you guys informed the next steps.

Starting point is 00:44:51 Ryan, you remember from the episode that we did where we did this big call to action? They have to read every comment. Yes. The comment I submitted was like six paragraphs. Yeah, it was an AI submission, which I love too, by the way. So whatever. I set mine just like a hair below spicy, by the way. Oh, mine was very spicy. Oh, you spiced it up. Oh, I spiced it up, dude. David, what else we covering today? 2.7 billion dollar main net just dropped. That doesn't happen every day. We'll talk about which one. What does Elon Musk have to say about NFTs? And also, why does Elon Musk want everyone to go bankless in under one year? He charges his employees with

Starting point is 00:45:32 helping everyone go bankless in just one year. What is going on? I kind of like the sound of this. And also remember safe moon, Ryan? Yes. No. Well, it turns out it was not safe nor did it moon. The execs got arrested by the Department of Justice for misappropriate users' funds and manipulating the market. I am just shocked. We're going to get to all of these details and more.

Starting point is 00:45:51 But first moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible, especially MetaMask portfolio. If you've not opened up your MetaMas portfolio, what are you waiting for? Go try it out while you listen to these sponsors. Metamask portfolio is your one-stop shop to navigate the world of DeFi. bridging seamlessly across networks doesn't have to be so daunting anymore. With competitive rates and convenient routes, Metamask portfolio's bridge feature lets you easily move your tokens from chain to chain using popular layer one and layer two networks and all you have to do is select a network you want to bridge

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Starting point is 00:46:51 happening. Introducing the cello layer two. It's a game-changing proposal that's going to bring Sellow's rapidly growing ecosystem home to Ethereum. Vitalik has shared its excitement for the cello layer two on the cello forum, so has Ben Jones from optimism, but But why? The cello layer two will bring huge advantages, like a decentralized sequencer, off-chain data availability, and one block finality. What does all that mean? Rock solid security, a trustless bridge to Ethereum, and more real-world use cases for Ethereum without compromise. And real-world adoption is happening. Active addresses on cello have grown over 500% in the last six months. With the cello layer two, gas fees will stay low and you can even

Starting point is 00:47:27 pay for gas using ERC20 tokens. But cello is a community-governed protocol. This means that Sello needs you to weigh in and make your voice heard. Join the conversation in the Selo Forum. Follow at Selloorg on Twitter and visit cello.org to shape the future of Ethereum. All right, David, tell me about that $2 billion main net. What are we looking at here? Celestia, congrats on the mainnet launch. What is Celestia?

Starting point is 00:47:51 It is a data availability network. It is a chain that is meant to do one thing and one thing extremely well, which is provide data availability or data publishing, as we are calling it now. And so this Celestia, the Celestia thesis is highly synonymous with the roll-up thesis. Celestia thinks that there is going to be thousands and thousands and millions of roll-ups, and it wants to sell them data availability. We've already seen a roll-up platform like Eclipse use Celestia for data availability. And the idea is like the more roll-ups that get data availability from Celestia,

Starting point is 00:48:25 the more fees that it generates. It's also got this whole like light node optimization emphasis we'll have to go down the Celestia rabbit hole. There's an episode I did with Nick White, the CEO founder of Celestia forever ago. Anyways, the token, TIA. Why TIA for Celestia instead of CEL? I don't know.

Starting point is 00:48:44 CEL is also Celsius's token, so maybe that's recent. That's probably why. 580,000 people receive the airdrop. The current price of TIA is around $2.58, which is coming in at a fully diluted valuation in the last I checked, at $2.7 billion. billion dollars. So it's not every day. The $2.7 billion just gets minted out of thin air. So congratulations to anyone that invested or has worked on or received the airdrop of Celestia.

Starting point is 00:49:12 Yeah. And congratulations to anyone who lives in the U.S. and who was protected by this irdrop from our friend. Yeah. This dangerous, dangerous air drop. Could not access it. Couldn't VPN in? Nothing. Could not get it. Have to cross the border to Canada, I guess. So to get your air drop. I legitimately thought about just like, yo, I could just Uber to Canada for it. Yes, less than the cost of this. Get my airdrop and get out real quick. All right, David, safe moon. Tell me about that.

Starting point is 00:49:38 I barely remember safe moon. This was some meme coin in 2021, 2021. Is that, is that it? Yeah. Yeah, this is how we knew the Marcus for frothy. I mean, kind of in hindsight. It's literally called safe moon because it safely, it's a safe bet that it goes to the moon. It's in the title.

Starting point is 00:49:55 You know, in the title. Who is chilling this? Some big, like, was Dave Port. Tick-Tac account. It was TikTok account. It has some mechanism that like when you make when you transfer it, it burns a part of it. So it's like pumponomics. Anyways, the Department of Justice arrested in charge the exec team with perpetrating a massive fraud on its investors.

Starting point is 00:50:15 The SEC also targeted them for offering unregistered securities. You know, I'm not going to get in the front of the SEC on this one. It's like you guys. No problem. That's what you should do. Get them out of here. Thanks, SEC on that. It takes the bad to the good.

Starting point is 00:50:28 It's mostly bad. But I guess there's a little bit of good here. What did the execs do here? I'm reading a line here. Apparently, they withdrew more than $200 million from the project. That's the safe moon execs. Yeah, exactly. They're charged with conspiracy to commit securities fraud, conspiracy to commit wire fraud, and money laundering. Yeah, anyone who does this also is totally money laundering. They're not paying their taxes. Then they misappropriated investors' funds for personal use, a sports, a Porsche, other luxury vehicles, real estate. some other bullshit, I'm sure.

Starting point is 00:51:03 There you go. Well, it would be nice that the SEC spent more time doing stuff like that. Tip of the hat. More of this. More of this. A tweet from Brian Armstrong

Starting point is 00:51:14 says he's working hard on the Coinbase wallet. Our ambitious goal is to get the average transaction under one second, one second end-to-end, instant cheap and global. I think he's using the magic, the power of layer two is to do that.

Starting point is 00:51:29 He's actually showing a demo here in this tweet. Don't blink, it says. This is the Coinbase wallet transacting. Looks like sending maybe some ETH somewhere. Yeah, sending some ETH somewhere in a second. Yeah, ETH between Arbitrum and Base, so two layer two chains. Nice. And then there's probably like five or seven different routes to do that.

Starting point is 00:51:48 And then the Coinbase wallet is just obfuscating it because you have cryptographic assurances for layer twos. You have inclusion insurances. And so what can a wallet do? They can just make it snappy. There's like so much juice to squeeze left in the interoperability layer between layer twos and stuff like this, just like the front end UX is one of them. I love to see exchanges cozing up with layer twos. This is a crackin with its own ETH deposits and withdrawals now supporting ZK Sync. This is, I believe, the first major exchange to support the ZK EVM and maybe the first to support a ZK roll-up, David.

Starting point is 00:52:25 So pretty big crackin moving into it. that and it's fantastic. Other stuff in Crackenland, their formula F1 NFT car finally got revealed. And so they had this like promo video of these race car drivers like talking about the NFTs that are, it's all like on the spoiler on the end. So when these F1 cars are driving really fast, the spoiler pushes the air up. This is the thing we were talking about where you could get your NFT on the back of this car, right? Yeah. Sadly, my dick butt did not. I don't know how sad that is. Some of these race car drivers are pretty happy. They don't have to have. a dick. We don't need to listen to the race cars, but in the video, one race car is talking to the

Starting point is 00:53:04 other one is like, yeah, I put this NFT on it because it's super distracting for the driver behind. It's probably true. Speaking of NFTs, Elon Musk said something about NFTs earlier. Oh, super positive, right? Well, let's hear. But I mean, NFTs, the funny thing is that the NFT is not even on the blockchain. It's just a URL to the JPEC. So it's not even like, it's like you should have, least encode the JPEG in the blockchain. Because like if the URL, if the company housing the image goes out of business, you don't have the image anymore. All right, David. Trivia on that, is Elon Musk right about that? Is an NFT, just a pointer? The NFT, the JPEG itself is not

Starting point is 00:53:48 on the blockchain. Is that true? That is yes and no. First, before I answer that question, I just love Joe Rogan's just like, it's like, those NFT scammers. They got us again. Yeah, not even on the chain this whole time. We thought it was on the chain. It's not. Did you think it was on the chain this whole time, David? No, of course not.

Starting point is 00:54:11 This is why NFTs like autoglyphs are so cool. Not only are they on chain, but they're generated natively on chain. There are a good, strong selection of on-chain NFTs. smaller NFTs, like pixelated ones, for example, Cryptopunks, for example, are on chain. Fully on chain. Fully on chain. The JPEGs themselves.

Starting point is 00:54:32 The JPEG is on chain. It's usually it's not a JPEG. It's like sometimes it's a vector file, right? It's like an SVG. Yeah, yeah, because they're lower data. So there's 20 of them. Shout out Treasure, the Treasure Small brains. Those are on chain.

Starting point is 00:54:48 There's just like a good handful of NFTs that are on chain. There's also like NFTs. I have a couple, I have like 12 NFTs made by my buddy Nate Muller who the NFTs themselves are like 1.2 gigabytes a pop. And those are not on chain. Those are actually stored on RWeave. And so using the modular blockchain thesis, data on RWeave, NFT on Ethereum, NFT points to RWeave. And then I can get my data from RWeep. And RWeave is a decentralized storage layer.

Starting point is 00:55:22 Okay, so it's not quite as kind of decentralized and secure as something maybe like Ethereum. It doesn't quite give you those guarantees, but it is much cheaper. It's optimized to store large files. And it's certainly much better than a cloud provider, an AWS or something like that or what Elon was talking about, a company that could go out of business, right? So that's kind of an interim type step with a lot of NFTs are stored on RWeave or IPFS. Right. And it's also just important to remember.

Starting point is 00:55:50 what is an NFT, an NFT is a file format. You can put a URL there. You can put an actual image there. You can put a pointer to another token or something else. So yes, Elon, you're actually mostly wrong. You're kind of right, but you're mostly wrong. Yeah, kind of right. But like the spirit of that, I feel like is mostly wrong. The spirit is wrong. You know, David, Elon, always the ambitious individual, he gave his employees at X, that is formerly Twitter, one year to create a system on X that replaces the banks. Do you know, he got, he got to start over at PayPal, right? That's what I think shortly after that. Which he wanted to call X, by the way. He wanted to call X. He got the X dot com domain after that. And now wants to, it seems like, turn Twitter into a financial platform.

Starting point is 00:56:37 So the quote is, when I say payments, I actually mean someone's entire financial life. If it involves money, it'll be on our platform, money or securities or whatever. So it's not like send $20 to my friend. I'm talking about. You won't even need a bank account. What do you think that's possible, David? There's no bank account. Yeah. I don't know how he does this without crypto.

Starting point is 00:57:01 Yeah, neither do I. And I actually think when he says no bank account, he actually means there's going to be a bank account somewhere, unless he's using crypto. I mean, PayPal definitely has a bank accounts, right? I mean, it's all kind of connected. You have to have a bank account. And I think he is getting a broker-dealer,

Starting point is 00:57:19 money transmission licenses. across the U.S. right now. So, I mean, like, no bank account in air quotes here. This is kind of the version of crypto that I don't want, which is that we use the power of crypto to just make a new banker. I don't want Elon Musk to be my banker. I don't think he should just focus on cars and Mars. Cars and Mars.

Starting point is 00:57:39 I don't think he's using crypto here, right? It's like, I don't think, I don't know what this means. But I think it's just a, a FinTech play. If he starts using crypto, if he starts using like stable coins or something like that, then I think this gets a bit more interesting and a bit more bankless. If he makes this fintech dominant X platform, it becomes very ripe to hook crypto into it in the back end. I agree.

Starting point is 00:58:07 I agree. But I don't know if he's there yet. So prefer crypto. Spoiler. Yeah. Speaking PayPal, by the way. So PayPal just received a subpoena from the end. SEC. Apparently, they don't like what PayPal is doing with their PYUSD. This is a stable coin product.

Starting point is 00:58:25 Remember, Nick Carter came on the show. We did an entire episode on Stable Coins. He told us a little bit about PYUSD. And according to Nick Carter, PYUSD is actually offers even better settlement and security guarantees than the PayPal dollars. Actual deposits in PayPal. Yeah, then actual deposits in PayPal. But something about this, the SEC doesn't like, maybe because it's It's tokenized. Gary Gensler thinks he gets to control it. But they're in the process of subpoenaing PayPal right now over this. So that's the statement, David.

Starting point is 00:58:58 Absolute rampage. David, one of our favorite sites for a while has been Dune Analytics. This is anybody, anybody can create a like open source metrics board to gather any on-chain data. And now they are releasing Dune AI. What is this, David? So this is using large language models like chat GBT to, be able to query and parse Dune's data.

Starting point is 00:59:22 And so this is, I think, just making Dune's data much more accessible. We as PLEBs, Ryan, are beholden to people like Hildobby and Data Always to put Dune boards together for us. And I think- And we don't. We are non-sequal clubs. Exactly. But now we are large language model users, which makes us Dune gods, I guess.

Starting point is 00:59:45 It's kind of the idea. And so you can just go. go to Dune and type in your query, hopefully, and then all of the Dune data that's parsed will be able to spit back out whatever you are looking for. Like here's the example. What are weekly ZK Sync transaction volumes this year? You can plug that in in, you know, just language, just normal human, like English language, and then it'll spit back a chart for that. It's pretty magical. So this is actually something that we learned during our travels at Bankless Ventures.

Starting point is 01:00:12 I want to parse something out here. There is the data that Dune has parted. and purified and made ready for people to query. And then there is all of the data on the blockchain. Dune does not have all of the data on the blockchain. Data on the blockchain is like this unrefined, extremely crude, like oil that needs to go and be refined. So people like Hildobie or data always, you know, these Dune wizards can actually put on a board together. So we are not actually scaling out. There's no new data.

Starting point is 01:00:46 Dune doesn't have any new data. The current data that Dune does have parsed is now much more easily queried. Which is still incredibly powerful, but you can't do things like how much money did Hamas receive in crypto assets? You couldn't ask a question. It wouldn't be able to answer a question like that. Right. So Dune still has to manually kind of parse and purify data on the blockchain to be able to present it through its LLM. This is how I understand this.

Starting point is 01:01:12 Yes. Speaking of Bankless Ventures, by the way, David, one of our portfolio companies Modulus just announced their raise. And the reason we're including this is, of course, is it presents a future possible conflict of interest and also because we're pretty excited about the Modulus project. So, Modulus, David. So Modulus is in the ZKML space, that is zero knowledge machine learning. And so this is a bet that there will be a ton of machine learning models out there.

Starting point is 01:01:39 And what can you do with ZK, like machine model learning models, very big sets of data. Like imagine how big the data is behind chat GPT. It's like 100 gigabytes. You can ZK, that LLM or that machine learning model, and then you produce a proof of that, and then you put that proof on chain. In the world in which there are extremely valuable models out there to use across all different circumstances, it would be really useful to have a proof that you are actually using the correct model and actually being served the correct output of that model.

Starting point is 01:02:11 And so this just is, it's like an authenticity. authentication layer for models and making sure that you're not getting man in the middle attacks if you are a consumer of a model. And so it puts all models into a ZK proof and puts on chain for verification. And then so you can attest that the output of the model that you are paying for or subscribing to or just need for whatever reason is actually using the correct model. And so it's using, it's kind of like using Ethereum as like an Ethereum adaptation service type of use case. And so there is like the external needs for authenticity. But what's really cool about this, what really got my imagination going, is when the outputs of one ZKML model can also engage with the outputs of another ZKML model natively on-chain.

Starting point is 01:02:57 So you can start to think of this as like on-chain ZKML Legos that can be composed together, which gets really interesting when we talk about the world of fully on-chain universes, fully on-chain games. And they need to go out and like query a model as a part of their universe. Like, oh my God, imagine that. And so that's why I'm super stoked about modulus. Congratulations on Modulus for the race. David, what do we have coming up next? Coming up next, where are all the apps? That is a question from one of the members in the bankless nation.

Starting point is 01:03:26 Ryan and I are going to tell you exactly where all the apps are here. Where they hiding. Where are they hiding? Yeah, we're also going to talk about what we're bullish on. So stay tuned for all of that. But first, a moment to talk about these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible. You know Uniswap. It's the world's largest decentralized exchange with over 1.4 trillion.

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Starting point is 01:05:26 Question from Galena this week from the Bankless Nation. Most of the projects highlighted are infrastructure-focused, but where are user-focused apps that have a true practical application and solve a pain point? Where are they even being built right now? are the apps, I think, is the question from Galena. Do you have an answer for that? Yeah, crypto has been in this, like, infrastructure phase for like ever. And the application phase is something that I would love to get to. Where are all the apps is kind of like a really good question. We had friend.com. We had one good one. We need like a lot more. Kind of the big

Starting point is 01:06:04 use cases that are definitely successful in crypto are stable coins. And non-sovereign. store values. And after that, I don't know if there's really a good, like, Friend Tech is like sixth and there's nothing that's three through five. Where are all the apps? We have, I would say in the year 2023, block space supply, supply of block space is no longer an issue. We need the apps. Like, we are in this kind of, we should be having an existential crisis as an industry of just like, you know, we have all the infrastructure, but no one's building anything on the app layer, WTF. That's kind of what I would say is the state of the industry. That's also what I would say

Starting point is 01:06:43 as the state of the Solana conference I went to. Like the Solana, what they are delivering as their infrastructure layer is like, I don't know, apparently really crazy. What they're saying they can do is like, oh, that's insane. Like the whole like token 2022 package. Really cool.

Starting point is 01:07:00 No apps. No ecosystems got apps. Yeah. So the way I tee this up and talk about this is first of all, lay out the concern, right? because I'm also, it's also been on my mind. I tweeted this earlier this week. I'm no longer worried about the scalability problem for crypto.

Starting point is 01:07:15 Now it's the opposite. We have too much block space chasing too few apps. What apps will consume all this cheap block space? I feel like we go in this feast or famine type of phase with crypto, where actually, if you remember last cycle, we had so much activity that our transactions cost like $30 to do something on Ethereum, right? That's like maybe too many apps, not enough block space. Now we have all of this block space.

Starting point is 01:07:40 You're just talking about all the cheap salana block spaces coming down the pike. We have all of this cheap layer two block space too. And it's just getting cheaper. It's getting cheaper and cheaper and cheaper. And it's becoming more and more plentiful. So now we're in the feast portion of things. And the big question is like what are the apps? And the way I think about this, David,

Starting point is 01:07:59 is there's like really two schools of thought. There's like the many app thesis and the few app thesis. I would say the few app thesis, one of the best analysts on this is Pellena. And I would also maybe extend this to Vitalik a little bit. But Pellina basically says, you know what? Most of the apps, and this was, I would say, part of the bankless thesis from 2019, 2020. Everyone, if you remember the 2017 crypto cycle, we thought we were going to disrupt Uber with a decentralized Uber, as people are saying.

Starting point is 01:08:31 Like the world computer. We're going to take over AWS as well, okay? And I remember part of the refresh for me in 2018, 2019, was being like, what is this crypto thing actually useful for? And the thing I came away with was money, finance, going bankless. And these are still the king apps. It's non-sovereign store of value. So it's like a gold type of object. Bitcoin, let's say, or ether as kind of an internet bond and non-sovereign store values.

Starting point is 01:09:02 We got that. Check the box. You mentioned stable coins. That's another. Defy is another, so decentralized finance. I mean, Uniswap, overtaking the volume of some of our major exchanges, has been a clear success. Defy, Ave, Compound, these things did fine when all of the centralized, collateralized loan providers in 2022 faltered. So we do have some wins and we do have some apps, but they're mostly in the finance category.

Starting point is 01:09:28 And then NFTs, right? That is like property is still an asset. So the apps primarily have come from the finance category of things. And Pellinia says that's pretty much the sweet spot for crypto. It's high value, money, financing types of applications. There's not going to be a lot else. So what you should do crypto is focus the U.S. on this niche and get it really good and then onboard the world that way.

Starting point is 01:09:58 That I would say is the few apps type thesis. And then there's others. that are maybe the Many App type thesis. I would say, you know, Chris Dixon from A16Z is probably this, like the folks at Variant Fund, Lee Jen, who we had on the podcast earlier is probably like Manyap thesis, and they believe a bit more in kind of a on-chain social, Web3 type of world where we're going to have a lot of consumption

Starting point is 01:10:24 of this block space that we just can't imagine right now. So that would be more along the lines of friends. dot tech types of things or even, you know, we're looking at that song.com. Like just things that are new, things that we can't imagine right now. I would say for myself personally, I still think we're in that, you know, we're in the famine phase for apps right now, but we're in the feast phase for block space. And so this is where we get to actually test to see how many use cases there are for crypto beyond these kind of simple money cases. I think there'll be more than we expect, but maybe not.

Starting point is 01:11:00 not as much as the Uber Bulls who think we're going to put Uber on chain, 2017, think there are. So that's how I'd answer that. Is it too much to ask for Feast, Feast, Feast, Feast and Feasten Acts? No, we never get that. Nothing's ever perfect, David. Not in crypto. You know, one thing I'll add to this is Vitalik wrote a post about this in 2022,

Starting point is 01:11:25 that you can go read. He names a few apps, money. He says that's the first and still the most important app. Identity? Yep. And then he talks about defy, which we name there. Identity, which we really haven't talked about. And that's an up-and-comer.

Starting point is 01:11:41 So, E&S, proof of humanity, po-app, soul-bound tokens, that kind of thing. Dow's, maybe they're nascent as well. Again, this is a capital formation structure. Don't hurt me again. And that's what he mentions. And by the way, all of those use cases, guess what, David? They were in the Ethereum white paper. So that that veers more towards

Starting point is 01:12:00 Plenia's line of thinking. It's a few use cases that blockchain and crypto is highly tuned for, very valuable for the world, but it's just not everything. I'm firmly in the many apps camp. I think if you can have a fully on-chain game,

Starting point is 01:12:16 fully on-chain universe, a fully on-chain like state machine inside of a state machine, that is, that's like infinity. If you can re-stimulate a world, that's infinity apps. That's my take. In the fullness of time, though, maybe.

Starting point is 01:12:29 In the fullness of time. Right? How long does that take to actually play out? It may take a lot longer. Oh, yeah. They're like, yeah, like 10 plus 20 years. Yeah. Take of the week, David.

Starting point is 01:12:38 This is your take. It's the only take we got. So give it to us. This is also, okay, this is also what I'm bullish on, but it comes in two parts. Okay. Looking out of money ball here. Yeah, what are we looking at? Moneyball, yeah.

Starting point is 01:12:50 So we're looking at a graphic that I put together. This is coming out of a slide for a talk that I'm giving at Fabric Ventures, event in Lisbon here on Monday, one of the reasons why I'm here in Lisbon. So my hot take here is like we're like a circle spectrum with every single color of the universe in it, right? You're like yellow, red, blue. It's like a spectrum, a sphere of color spectrums. And around it, I have like disciplines of knowledge, economics, physics, finance, anthropology, political science, sociology, psychology, psychology. And like my hot take here is that like money is actually like the space between these disciplines. Like money, like money doesn't just emerge until many other things also emerge.

Starting point is 01:13:33 Like other things, like other things have to be, are the prerequisites to get to money. Right. And so you're saying like money, money as a protocol. Money has like a social coordination tool, right? Because yes. Yeah. You're not saying money is the center of finance and economics and physics and history and anthropology. You're saying it has something. Yeah. So like it's so like money is like kind of gestaltian, as in like you need a few of these things in order to allow for money to emerge, right? And so, for example, like economics. Inside of the economics, you have the subjects of like the role of money, the medium exchange unit of accounts or a value. You have concept of like supply and demand and inflation and deflation. In physics world, you have the production of

Starting point is 01:14:17 money, like hard versus soft money is a function of physics. Like why did gold win the Darwinian fight of commodity monies? Well, that answer lies in physics. You have finance and finance can produce money. Credit is a financial concept. Debits and credits are two kinds of entries into a ledger that comes from the world of finance. You have anthropology, right? So different cultures have produced different commodity monies and different ledger monies throughout history. And then these cultures collided and so did their monies. And one money ultimately displaces each other. Political science. When humans invented armies and organized states, the technology of money gained a new property, the central bank.

Starting point is 01:15:00 And so now money has governance. Then there's sociology, like statehood, money, and society all relate to each other. Now societies vote for governments that makes fiscal and monetary decisions. And these choices are made in mass for all of society. And then there's psychology. Because economic and societal choices are all determined at the margins. every single choice that you make as an individual is an economic one. Do you buy that coffee in the morning?

Starting point is 01:15:26 Do you take the train, an Uber, a personal vehicle? Do you store your savings in Argentine peso or Bitcoin? These choices reverberate through the rest of the system. And so my take is that money is a technology that is at the center of so many other disciplines. And when we were just like cavemen with like stone tools, you don't get any money because you don't have any of the other disciplines that allowed for money to emerge. But money as a technology gets more sophisticated, the more knowledge we have. Another way to maybe interpret this is in order to understand money, and the reason so few I think

Starting point is 01:16:00 understand it, you have to understand a little bit about economics, physics, history, anthropology, political science, sociology, psychology, and finance. Like, no wonder. That's literally the line in my talk. It's like a money one time. But you know what? On the flip side, the best way to learn about these disciplines. and the reason why I personally find crypto endlessly fasting.

Starting point is 01:16:20 I mean, like, I know a lot of people are here for kind of like the, you know, just the dopamine hits of watching the price go up. And I'm not going to lie, that's great. You know, like investing is fantastic and seeing number go up and that's all great. But the reason I've stayed here is because it's just so intellectual, like, it's so freaking interesting. And it's the best way to learn all of these disciplines as well because money and a study of crypto will teach you all of these things. The one thing I would add, if you were to say

Starting point is 01:16:49 crypto money on top of this, you'd also have to like put cryptography and like technology to surround the circle and round this out along with all of those other disciplines, which is why we have endless content to cover on bankless, my friend. You're looking at a spectrum of bankless content right here. Yes. That's right. All right. What do you bullish on, David? I'm bullish on money, Ryan. with the context that you just gave. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:17:20 Yeah. Well, I think like the, I think people often forget, I think especially in the year 2023 in this industry, like how important money is as one of the functions of crypto, especially as we are going there. We're like Janet Yallen just said, oh yeah, we can totally afford two wars. Yeah. I'm sure. Janet Yelan, we can totally afford two wars if we take it out of the money, out of the

Starting point is 01:17:45 US dollar. The value comes out of the dollar, which is where people make their savings, which is where it comes to the future. It comes from people. And then people's individual psychologies are like, well, my dollars are bad now. And so I need to ask for more dollars for my employer so I can live. And so it reverberates throughout the system, right? And then all of a sudden, if you have a defective money, you have a defective society. And so I'm just having a reminder. It's like, yo, money, if there's one thing that crypto produces, that we needed to produce, it's money. And so it's a reminder to be bullish about money. Money is why we're here. If we can fix money, you can fix the world. Tip of the hat to, I can't believe I'm

Starting point is 01:18:31 saying this, but safe ad deemus. I can't believe you're saying that either. Wow. Yeah, right. Hold on. I'm finding, David, while you're saying this, you know, I want to pull up this like absurdist tweet. And this is actually, this is real. So it's only struck me as absurd. This is, this is a headline I saw. Japan to approve a 110 billion dollar stimulus package to fight inflation. How does that work? You don't, you don't spend money to fight inflation. Yeah, that's exactly what you're talking about, though. An understanding of money will make this pretty obvious. Oh, our friend Preston Pish is there because we need more made up money to have less money. See, Bitcoiners understand money. They don't understand Bitcoin, but they understand money.

Starting point is 01:19:14 Wow. You made a lot of people mad right there. All right. Ask me, David. Ask me. I will, Ryan. What are you bullish on? You know what's on that theme? I'm bullish on ether. Ether as money. Okay? In particular, I just want to say, you were talking about, obviously, a lot of tokens have had big pumps here lately. I am not surprised. Solana had such a monumental pump. I think it was kind of like it's off massive lows, you know, 97% down. But I think what's-

Starting point is 01:19:43 For context, it's back up to its pre-FTX, right before FTX Yes. What I think people are doing now, though, is they're forgetting about ether, okay? They're starting to fade ether. Heath isn't cool anymore. It's not cool anymore because it hasn't pumped the way Soul has over the last 30 days.

Starting point is 01:19:59 So I'm hearing even like some seasoned Eve people starting to like, worry, maybe, starting to wonder, did I miss something? I'm not saying anyone that listened to bank lists like this, but my message is this. You guys are too bearish on ETH right now, okay? If you are one of those people, because look at the landscape, there's a bunch of execution layers out there. There's layer twos. I consider Solana an execution layer. Take your pick. There's only one settlement layer, and that's Ethereum. Do you know how I know this? because Ethereum is the only chain that has other chains that settle on top of it.

Starting point is 01:20:34 Ethereum is the only chain that from 2019 to this year, 2023, went from about 19 million annually in blockchain sales to like $1.2 billion in annualized blockchain sales. It is the only chain that is producing profitable block space. That makes it a settlement layer. And I think that is, the market is not appreciating that right now. I think the market is doing some narrative type trading. And that's fine. You know what's going to happen?

Starting point is 01:21:04 But I feel like too many people are fading Eath. And you know who agrees with me? His previous bankless guest, Chow Wang, he says this. hilarious that Eth is now the most hated asset in crypto. And yet Eith has, objectively, the largest dev community, arguably better long-term security than Bitcoin. For most retail, if they could only own one crypto asset as part of the concentrated portfolio, it would be eth. That's still my take, man. Whenever someone asked me, I'm like, Eith.

Starting point is 01:21:32 I saw the Bitcoin plus Salana barbell case and I'm like, where have I heard this before? Well, tell people, some people missed it. Where have we heard that before? It was like defy summer. It was after like nine months of defy tokens of absolutely mooning in price. Bitcoin was winning in price and ether wasn't doing anything. And they're like Bitcoin and and DeFi tokens. These is a barbell. You're like, why do you need ether? It's all you need. Now people are doing like, it's Bitcoin for the money because they know in the back of their

Starting point is 01:22:01 head, they're like, yeah, Bitcoin for the money, Solana for the tech. And to me, like, Solana people mostly know their shit. If you're going to say that Bitcoin is the money, to me, it just reveals your bias because we know Bitcoin is broken money. And they know it too. And they're just saying like, no, no, just know Ethereum, just Bitcoin and Soul. It's all you need. Like, to me, it just reveals the card.

Starting point is 01:22:25 Can I just pull up one more tweet while we continue this conversation? Yeah, we're ranting. It's our show. We can do what we want. What's your tweet? Okay, you want to read this one first? Yeah, this is someone by the name of Maddie. Describe roll-ups, but leave out the typical jargon.

Starting point is 01:22:37 No, Ethereum, you can't say layer two, you can't say scaling or you can't say multi-sig. So the answer that I gave for this is, what is a roll-up? It is a ledger contained inside of a single line of a larger ledger. What, Ryan, is a settlement layer? Yeah. It's the one that isn't contained by any other larger ledger. It's the king ledger. It's the substrate.

Starting point is 01:23:01 It's the final settlement layer, right, which is Heath. Well, until there are other chains that are settling other ledgers, I think Ether has an incredibly strong value proposition. I'm not worried at all about these recent moves. Feeling quite comfy. David, let's get to the meme in the week. This is an old meme. Kind of checked out.

Starting point is 01:23:20 It is two people. it's a guy and a girl and the guy is doing the hand heart thing where if you're like the other the girl matches the heart and the girl's just got like a thumbs up this man is the girl the girl is you know thumbs up is sam bankman freed and the guy trying to do the heart is ft x the part of the they're not they're not getting it can this be our last sam bangman fried meme ever as soon as soon as he's so memeable he's so memeable you're right here we can't we can't commit to that well there you go bankless nation thanks for staying tuned this is been the roll-up and with some disclosures and then risks in a minute. Bankless Ventures, of course, invested in Modulus. We told you about that earlier. I'm an angel investor in Dune Analytics as well. Both David and I are long-term Eath holders. We also hold Bitcoin, other assets. You can always view our disclosures at bankless.com slash disclosures. Let me end with this as I do. You've got to know that crypto is risky. You could definitely lose what you put in, but we are headed west. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone, but we're glad you're with us

Starting point is 01:24:20 on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot. And please enjoy this moment of Zen from Kyla Scanlan, who in this zoomer fashion way, explains the Federal Reserve. Hey there, Fed Chair Jerome Powell, I have no surprises for you today except for my tie is silver and I'm not wearing glasses. So we have pause. Rates are unchanged. This is because the economy is an economy.

Starting point is 01:24:39 It is doing what it does. Nation is somewhat cooling. The labor market, somewhat cooling. The bond market? Freaking out. So that did our job for us a little bit. Titer financial and credit conditions, basically a couple of rate hikes. We have maintained optionality by taking a break by saying, hey, maybe we'll date again soon.

Starting point is 01:24:57 We don't think that the rise in long-term bond yields is because of policy rates. Nobody really knows, just like nobody knows it. Recession not in the forecast rate, steady economy zooming thanks to you. Can you keep doing it? Can you keep spending lots of money on things? So we will keep that door open and maintain optionality and call you back a couple times a week to say, hey. Because there are a lot of things going on. Have to ask.

Starting point is 01:25:21 Is inflation cooling? Ask, is the market happy? Can that rock keep rolling off that hill?

Bankless - ROLLUP: SBF Found Guilty | Solana Dominance | Celestia Airdrop

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