Bankless - ROLLUP: Silvergate Trouble | MetaMask & Unity | Robinhood Mobile Wallet | ETHDenver 2023 | Bankless Ventures

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hosts of Bankless Podcasts raising $35 million crypto. That's us. Hey, that's us, I think. So, Ryan, and our friend, Ben Lakeoff, are starting bankless ventures. Bankless Nation, it is the first Friday of March. David, what time is it? Oh, Ryan, it's the Heath Denver version of the Bankless Friday weekly rollup, where we cover the entire weekly news in crypto.

Starting point is 00:00:23 And so much of that news is happening at East Denver. So much of the announcements that we're going to talk about are being announced at East Denver. So if you don't have coffee, grab it because you're going to need it to get through this weekly roll-up. I definitely am. Okay, so you're in Denver right now. I am not, but the conference per usual, as is tradition. The conference hasn't officially started though yet, has it? So it's different this year. The previous years at Heath Denver has been held in this venue called the Sports Castle, but we outgrew the sports castle by a wide margin last year. So we had to go to the Ethereum, excuse me, the Denver Convention Center.

Starting point is 00:00:59 Center. So the official canonical Heath Denver event does start today, but so much has already happened already. There are so many side events. There was this interoperability conference that was Monday and Tuesday. There was WalletCon yesterday. So to say that Heath Denver hasn't started yet is missing like the forest for the trees because so much of other events have already happened and have been ongoing all week. So Heath Denver week is definitely been a very big thing. Plus the hackathon has already been going on. So the canonical Heath Denver event starts to day, but so much is already underway as well. That's because when people talk about Heath Denver, it's really a shelling point for getting

Starting point is 00:01:35 a whole bunch of crypto people together. It is now. So what's the vibe? Like on the ground, what's the vibe? How are people? And by the way, by the way, we're recording this Thursday morning, but this goes out Friday. So the official Eith Denver event will have started by the time you guys are listening to this.

Starting point is 00:01:49 But yeah, what are the vibes? Like, what's kind of, how are people feeling? So it's very much more diverse in subject matter. Last year, East Denver, I think there was like 13 to 14,000 people that came and the venue only held 7,000. So that was an issue. And last year was in February when the market was like just riding all-time highs. It was very, very close to highs. Yes.

Starting point is 00:02:12 Okay. I haven't, we haven't gotten official head counts yet because it's really hard to get an official head count because there is no official head counter. But people have been giving me estimates of 15 to 20,000 people. Are you serious? Dude, I was at the what was at the ZK day. and it was it was all about zero knowledge the room was absolutely packed the zk day the one day event about all about zero knowledge was more than east denver 2020 as a whole this is a bare market if you told me back in 2019 that there would be at a single one day conference specifically about zero knowledge stuff

Starting point is 00:02:45 happening in 2023 i'd be like well i mean i guess i would why i'm here in this industry i expect that to grow but like it's crazy man yeah so like it's so large that people are sub-devil providing into different streams, different talks, different tracks. The energy is very, very large, and it's hard to keep track of everything. It is literally impossible to go to everything. You have to pick and choose what you want to do. Guys, as far as content goes, I know David is going to bring us back a ton of content. We've got a bankless, full bankless media team on the ground at Heath Denver.

Starting point is 00:03:17 And we're calling this like a virtual conference pass, which is basically where we're providing. And I like to think, David, you're doing this partially, you know, in service to people like me. who don't go to these events and you go and you record, you get some of the highlights, you talk about the takeaways, and we publish all of this on the bankless newsletter, and of course on our YouTube channel. And for premium subscribers, we package this all up into some RSS episodes that you can capture as well. So I bet you're coming home with a lot of content. That's exactly right.

Starting point is 00:03:46 I go to the content, Ryan, so you don't have to. At the Interoperability Summit, I recorded, I think eight interviews with Suriram from EigenLayer with Sunny from Cosmos, people from the Axelar layer one, which has peaked my interest, interestingly. So many different people, specifically outside of the EVM Ethereum ecosystem, the rest of the non-Etherian world, all about the interoperability summit. Also, Ledger from Up Only. He was there as well, so I got to meet him for the first time.

Starting point is 00:04:17 And so that was eight interviews at that event. Luke and the rest of the bankless media team and I are going to go to the actual canonical Ethanber event today and tomorrow. and probably do that again. So Ryan, I might have like 16 interviews for you. Rest that voice. Rest that voice,

Starting point is 00:04:32 do you hear it? A little bit. And I'm worried about you. Like, so I've been told that what you have to do in these, look at me, armchair quarterback. I don't even go to these things.

Starting point is 00:04:41 But what you have to do is like you speak with a lower, like a lower voice. So it comes more from your throat. And that tends to. Yeah. So yeah, exactly. It's totally normal.

Starting point is 00:04:51 It's totally normal. It's totally normal David in person. He sounds like an octave deeper or two. Anyway, We got a lot of things to cover too, and we got a short amount of time to do it. So topics of the week, Gary, coming out swinging against crypto, Gary Gensler, of course. He thinks everything is a security, but not everyone in the rest of government agrees with him. Neither do we.

Starting point is 00:05:10 What else we got, David? Things not looking great at Silvergate, the main bank of crypto looking pretty distressed. So we have to talk about that. And then the big news, which got announced yesterday, Metamask, everyone's favorite wallet, has released an SDK to go with the Unity game engine, planting a very firm flag that gaming is going to be the next big wave of adoption, servicing 2.7 billion people. Robin Hood released a mobile wallet, and I was actually able to try that out. So we got the details as well. But then there's already so many other announcements as well. DevCon gets announced in 2024. Account abstraction is live on the

Starting point is 00:05:46 Ethereum layer one, but I thought you needed a hard fork for that. We'll talk about that. Yuga Labs is doing ordinals. There's a lot to talk about. And Ryan, I have to go in. literally under 90 minutes because I have a talk at Shelling Point. So we are going to race through this weekly roll-up. All right, let's burn through it. And before we do, we want to tell you about our friends and sponsors at RhinoFi. Respect the Rhino is what I say. This is a really cool interface on top of D-Fi.

Starting point is 00:06:11 There's all sorts of what David and I call money verbs that you can do here. You can trade. You can swap. You can invest. Pools. Tell us a little bit about Rhino-Fi, David. Rhino-Fi is a multi-chain aggregator. So all of your different layer two opportunities,

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Starting point is 00:06:47 Again, app. rhino. dot fI. Guys, now is the time to go explore things while we're in the bare market and the build market, of course. So go check this out. This is just like banking interface 2.0.

Starting point is 00:06:58 Like go like go look at your dumb old Wells Fargo. You want me to go look at this and tell me which one looks more fun. This looks way more fun. I hate my banking user interface. It hasn't changed in the past like 15 years. All right. Let's get to markets. Speaking of new cool interfaces, again, all crypto interfaces are way better than all previous

Starting point is 00:07:18 financial interfaces. What we're looking at, of course, is the Cracken charts where we're going to look at the Bitcoin price starting the week at 23,000. $300, exactly flat on the week. Are you serious? Up? Zero percent down?

Starting point is 00:07:30 Yeah, exactly flat. Are you just doing that? Because you didn't want to look up the numbers, David. You just, that's flat. No, it's literally flat, Ryan. That's hilarious, man. Okay, how about Eith? Flat too?

Starting point is 00:07:40 Flat-ish, starting the week at 1600, ending the week at 1625, up 1.5% on the week. A little bump there. I call 1.5% pretty flat. That's nice. That's a bull run for ants. Who cares about this? How about the ratio?

Starting point is 00:07:54 ratio well I think you can do the math on that one even I can we are up 1.5% at 0.0697 well thanks for making it clear and thanks to crackin for these fantastic charts that you can find at pro crackin.com because I'm a pro I'm a trading pro David I don't know about you but these charts make me feel like it when I think Ryan Sean Adams I think trading pro I know you do that's a that's a meme that's you know real life too okay global crypto market cap are we above a trillion Above a trillion, $1.1 trillion in total crypto market cap. Down 2% in the last week or so. You know, let's talk about a few stats going on in the crypto markets.

Starting point is 00:08:34 I kind of skipped the Fed this week, David, because like nothing's really going on in macro. At least this is what I feel like the state of macro is. There's a lot of doom and gloom types of things, like a lot of doomers out there. And there are... Dumerism is in right now. Yeah, there are a few people who are predicting a glorious recovery. right, but like, I don't think anyone really knows. It could go one way or it could go the other.

Starting point is 00:08:58 So it's really impossible to talk about this week. But I do know this. The bowls and the bears are in perfect balance right now. Yeah, that's why we're flat on the last couple of weeks. It's been flat. All I know is I zoom out whenever I don't know, the answer is in the short run and look at the long run. And the government is going to continue to print money.

Starting point is 00:09:14 Crypto is going to continue to eat the banks. And this is a decade long, long bet. So who cares about the short run noise? Who cares about the week-to-week prices that we bring you every single week on the roll-up? It's all noise. It doesn't matter. But let's talk about crypto. David, let's talk Ethereum.

Starting point is 00:09:31 It just had its highest month of earnings ever. We love talking about Ethereum. We love talking about its earnings. But I thought that this chart was really cool. I'm just seeing it depicted all the way from back in October 2016. This is the monthly Ethereum earnings. And you'll notice here, David, it's been negative. Right.

Starting point is 00:09:50 Ethereum has been unprofitable. from October 2016 all the way Massively. Until when? The merge. What did that turn around happen? Yeah. The merge. Yeah. Proof of stake makes blockchains profitable. So really, when I see this chart, I just see proof of work versus proof of stake. And so if you want to have an expenditure positive blockchain, you need to have proof of stake. And that is what we are seeing. And so this is another way of saying the burn.

Starting point is 00:10:15 So instead of being on the website of Ultrasound.com money, instead we were at this one. We tricked you. Well, it's a different way of looking at this thing, right? And so burn is at all time high. Monthly Ethereum earnings is at all time highs as well. But this chart is just really putting it into perspective. So what that means in comparison to Ethereum's history. Yeah, what's also in stark contrasts is a lot of earnings reports are coming out for equities and securities, and they're all kind of down.

Starting point is 00:10:41 Like profits are down. This is funny because Ethereum profits are up. When you look at issuance as kind of the cost and you look at transaction fees as the reward, Ethereum's profitable right now, even in a bear market. David, this was a really interesting take from Hildobby about NFT royalties that we've been talking about for a while. And this is somebody who dives into the data. There are a few discoveries here that I think bankless folks should know about. What is Hildobby saying here? So Hildobby is walking us through the royalties stats on Dune Analytics boards.

Starting point is 00:11:10 By the way, shout out to Hildobby and all of his, their amazing, Dune analytics boards. A lot of the time when I go to Dune and I find a board and I find a good one, I go look at who made it. It's always Hill Dhabi. Not always. Data always also comes to mind. So quick shout out there. So Hill Dobby's walking us through some data analytics about creator royalties. And the big theme lately has been the royalty wars and how royalty percentages are going to zero as a result of this fight between blur and open sea. And so while that what's interesting here is while percentage of royalty pay is going to zero. So like, oh, the percentage of what is paid on a NFT transfer is going lower and lower and lower because margins are getting compressed. Total aggregate royalty payments. are actually at all-time highs. Surprising, right?

Starting point is 00:11:53 How does this, how do you square this? Well, it's because even though percentage on a per-transaction basis is getting compressed, total volume is going up. So while royalties are getting compressed, total actual royalty payments are at all-time highs. And that is a result of competition between these two major NFT trading platforms. So an interesting alternative look at the royalty wars. Yeah, it's great news for creators.

Starting point is 00:12:19 Royalty revenue is actually. going up, which is cool to see. David, we got a lot more coming up. What's on tap? Gary, the destroyer is absolutely unhinged. We had the bankless meetup yesterday. Yeah, Mike Searle there. No, Mike Selig, our nice securities lawyer,

Starting point is 00:12:37 who went on a couple times with there, he dropped some comments into my ear, so I will share them. After we talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible. Cracken has been a leader in the crypto industry for the last 12 years, Dedicated to accelerating the global adoption of crypto, Cracken puts an emphasis on security, transparency, and client support, which is why over 9 million clients have come to love Cracken's products. Whether you're a beginner or a pro, the Cracken U.S. is simple, intuitive, and frictionless, making the Cracken app a great place for all to get involved and learn about crypto. For those with experience, the redesigned Cracken Pro app and web experience is completely customizable to your trading needs, integrating key trading features into one seamless interface. Cracken has a 24-7-365 client support team that is globally recognized.

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Starting point is 00:14:13 in a safe environment. And while Metamask Learn always takes the third, time to define Web3 specific vocabulary, it is still a jargon-free experience for the Crypto-Curious user. Friendly, not scary. Metamask Learn is available in 10 languages with more to be added soon, and it's meant to cater to a global Web3 audience. So, are you tired of having to explain crypto concepts to your friends? Go to learn.netmask.io and add Metamask Learn to your guides to get onboarded into the world of Web3. Gary the Destroyer, he's on the attack. It seems like he's on a mission to destroy crypto. I don't know what's up with Gary.

Starting point is 00:14:45 but what's he doing this week, David? Declaring everything a security. So in the New York magazine, he's made some statements, which basically summarized as everything is a security except Bitcoin. Every company and crypto out there is in violation. Crypto is pointless, but blockchain is kind of neat. And this is a summary from Alexander Greve, who finished it up. Hard to argue you're acting in good faith if you're admittedly trying to stamp out an entire industry.

Starting point is 00:15:12 I saw another tweet. I can't remember who tweeted it, but it was basically like the meme of the Wright brothers discovered planes and flight, and every other plane after the Wright brothers is illegitimate. As in like, Bitcoin is decentralized, but every single other chain after Bitcoin is not legitimate. That's true. That's a big Bitcoin Maxi take.

Starting point is 00:15:32 But it's like, is Gary a Bitcoin Maxi? What's he doing? He's acting like a Bitcoin Maxi regulator. And I'm not saying this to like to say that this is what Bitcoin Maxis believe, but like if you were someone who only wanted, to like fence and protect Bitcoin and attack everything else. If that was your agenda, that would be Gary Genser's agenda. I don't understand.

Starting point is 00:15:53 So I was bored yesterday. Well, you guys were at the party. So I went on a tear of the, uh, do you see this tweet thread for your bank this ago? We had the team dinner last night. And we were all like, guys, what's right up? Who's doing this? Who's doing this? So I was just in a parking lot somewhere.

Starting point is 00:16:08 I was waiting for one of my kids to get done with something. And so I was just like going through all of the potential things that Gary might consider in the real world unregistered securities. Here's a Chili's gift card for $25 that you can buy in any local gas station. David, if the Paxos BUSD stable coin is a security, I ask you, my friend, is a Chili's gift card also a security? That's a question I would post to Gary Gensler. Okay, we got a security. Here's another example, Pokemon cards. Are they securities? 100% a security. Wow, profit? Can you profitable upside? Yeah, yeah. Efforts of others? Efforts of other?

Starting point is 00:16:45 Big time. Howie test. Yeah. Pokemon cards must be a security. Here is a sword. I think this is a Diablo sword. It looks pretty diabloy to me. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:16:55 King sword, noble sword. You know an item drop in your favorite video game has got to be security, right? Yeah. Oh, God, yeah. Do you have Chuckie cheese? Did you go to Chuckie cheese

Starting point is 00:17:03 when you're a kid? These tokens. Not exactly. This looks like an ERC 20 token to me. A Chuckie cheese tokens. Yeah. Uh-huh. They stole it from Chuckie.

Starting point is 00:17:12 And those are also securities. Classic cars. Classic cars that appreciate and value off of, well, is that the effort of others? Well, somebody else built it. Well, Taylor Swift, she's got kind of a, you know, a songwriting artist, a signed autograph. That's reputation of others. Yep. Yeah. How about hotel points? Unregistered security or no? Yeah, well, I mean, the value of a hotel point has to be determined by how much that hotel wants to make those things valuable. And they can inflate that at any time. They can inflate those away.

Starting point is 00:17:38 They can change the value of it. What's the supply schedule of a hotel point? Well, it's not deflationary. Let me tell you that. How about a human organ? Got a little carried away here. Fortnite V-bucks, definitely, right? A puppy. I don't know. Like, you can buy a puppy.

Starting point is 00:17:56 There's a market for, like, puppies. You can breed cattle, and cattle can produce dividends. And that's an effort of that cattle. Milk? The milk is the, your C-20 that comes out of the cow. It's fungible. It's a profitable enterprise. I get it, yeah.

Starting point is 00:18:11 Coals cash. Look, man, this is my Canadian upbringing. tire dollars. The Canadian watchers will know what these are. I do not know what these are. Yeah, it's a Canadian thing. Anyway, all of these could be securities. That's what's so ludicrous about this whole thing. There's no rhyme or reason other than, does Gary hate it? If yes, it's a security. That's the way it seems to me. Yeah. And the point that we're making, rather than talking about specifically what Gary has said, is like, this is the implication of like, yes. Everything other than Bitcoin and the Bitcoin blockchain is not decentralized and

Starting point is 00:18:40 is totally a security. All crypto exchanges are complicit. All, probably. Probably bankless is complicit because we talk about these things so tight. And really, really that's the news of this week is that this is the stance that Gary is taking publicly. It's a really hardline stance and I don't understand it. This is a take from crypto lawyer, Jake Trevinsky. What's he say here? Jake says, Chair Gensler may have prejudged that every digital asset aside from Bitcoin is a security, but his opinion is not the law. The SEC lacks the authority to regulate any of them until and unless it proves its case in court. for each asset, every single one, individually at one time. Which is why we titled this section, Gary the Destroyer, right? Because he's doing the whole like chilling effect thing, which is unconstitutional. And trying to scare everyone. And just being a megalomaniac, dude, he's just doing the power grab thing.

Starting point is 00:19:34 Like it's becoming clear and clearer and clear that Gary does not care about his job or his role, but is simply trying to grab power. Yeah, well, Mad King Gary. That's... Mad King Gary. This is Logan Bollinger. What's he say? Logan says, friendly reminder that Gary Gensler's opinions on what is or isn't a security are not legally dispositive.

Starting point is 00:19:56 Oh, good. We don't have kings here, right? This is America. That's right. In this country, judges, not SEC chairs ultimately determine what the law means and how it applies. Doesn't mean his thoughts are irrelevant. They are just not dispositive. That's a new word for me.

Starting point is 00:20:08 Dispositive? Yeah. They're just not dispositive. Cool. Okay. I would think about that word. New word. Gabe Shapiro, what's he say? Gabe Shapiro, one of a very well-respected lawyer in the crypto space now says that now that Gary Gensler has made clear he regards every single token, including stable coins other than Bitcoin as securities under US law. Can we start asking what's the plan here?

Starting point is 00:20:31 That's a really good question. I'm sure. What do you do? Where are you coming here? Come in and talk to us. So I can put handcuffs on you. This has got to be part of Operation Tocepoint. And so, David, I guess, the good news is this goes to the court system, but I'm not so sure this is good news. Like, it depends on whether we have reasonable judges in the court system. This was a take I saw last week. So a federal court just ruled that these emojis, this is the rocket emoji, the graph going up and the bagful of money.

Starting point is 00:21:02 The chart, yeah, the chart emoji and the bagful of money objectively mean one thing, a financial return on investment. I believe this is from the NBA Topshots legislation. The judge says this in their ruling, pointing at an exhibit of NBA Topshots tweets. Each tweet promotes a recent sale or statistics of recent sale of moments on the marketplace, and although the literal word profit is not included in any of the tweets,

Starting point is 00:21:29 the rocket ship emoji, in quotes, stock chart emoji, and money begs emoji objectively mean one thing. A financial return. on investment. If you are doing the rocket emoji or the money bag emoji, David, you are giving financial advice on Twitter,

Starting point is 00:21:50 whether you know it or not, according to this judge. Absolutely ludicrous takes, David. And I don't even understand if these people don't understand how the internet works. Like, you can't just say an emoji is financial advice, can you?

Starting point is 00:22:05 I mean, they're not wrong. That's why they're putting the emoji in there, though. The problem is that this is the official NBA Top Shot account. I think if there was a random user of NBA Topshots, that would be, that would be ridiculous. I think, I do kind of think like, yeah, if you're putting the upwards chart and rocket ship and money bags emojis into your platform and you are that platform, like, yeah, we kind of, I kind of get it. It's in bad form, but what are you going to do? What are you going to do? You're going to ban certain emojis.

Starting point is 00:22:34 This is the stupid thing. If I do a Pokemon card rocket emoji, what am I? And I'm the issuer of Pokemon. I guess that's an illegal tweet. Right. Like, what is that? I don't understand what's going on here is kind of the bottom line take. And I just, I don't know that the courts are going to interpret things in a reasonable way.

Starting point is 00:22:55 Maybe this. Yeah. I think you, it's hard. It's hard. Because, like, there are, like, promoters laws, right? If you don't want to buy a freaking movie of an NBA top shot, don't buy it. Like, I, I think people have to have a bit of responsibility when it comes to you. I think that's really like, there is confusion in gray area.

Starting point is 00:23:17 And so what do we do in this environment? We push power and control and responsibility back to the individual rather than by doing this to the issuer. Yeah, you're not going to. Ticket tickets, rocket emoji. Like, that's going to be a thing too. It is a thing. Yeah. Yeah, it is a thing.

Starting point is 00:23:30 You're not going to, like, filter kind of the internet from these sorts of things. And I think doing so is a dead end. but there is a chilling effect that's going into place. Robinhood received a crypto-related subpoena request from the SEC. And it's basically just saying, the SEC is saying to Robin Hood, hey, there might be securities on Robin Hood. The subpoena concern, among other things, lists Robin Hood's cryptocurrency listings and custody of cryptocurrencies and platform operations. So Robin Hood clearly doesn't have clarity from the SEC. Coinbase is suspending Binance, U.S.D. stable coin.

Starting point is 00:24:06 So that's been delisted on the back of the SEC and I believe financial regulator in New York, New York doing this. MasterCard is holding up their crypto plans. They put that on hold. There's a report out that Visa was going to do that as well. But then Visa put out a statement, I think, from Kai Sheft Field, who's been on the podcast saying the story is inaccurate as it pertains to Visa. Here's the reality. And he talks about how Visa is conducting. continuing to partner with crypto companies.

Starting point is 00:24:38 Anyway, there was this like chilling effect on the industry. And that's a result of Madgeri's actions here. Yep, no, that's all right. And what's not reported in the news, Ryan, is just because of the connections I have in this space. And like I was mentioning at the bankless meetup yesterday, there I have wind that many, many, many, what's it called? Wells notices have been issued to many of the defy apps, orgs that we all know and love

Starting point is 00:25:06 Wells notices got shot out across the industry. In 2022 or just in the last week. Really? It has not come to light yet because no specific in like no specific team wants to like oh yeah, we got a Wells notice. Yeah. But it's been going through the lawyer circles that Wells notices have been distributed everywhere.

Starting point is 00:25:28 I mean, I haven't gotten this specific details and it's hard to like corroborate these things. These are still rumors. We should specify. Still rumors, yeah. But like the Wells notices are being distributed across the industry. Carpet bomb Wells notices is. And so I think we'll see news of that come out. And so this is Gary once upon a time being like a crypto hardliner.

Starting point is 00:25:51 And now this is why we're calling it Gary the Destroyer, Gary the Megalomaniac. And so like this is going so far that this is actually starting to get pushed back from people outside of the crypto industry. And so this is news saying a new Congress. body to come to hold a hearing on the regulatory attack on crypto. So they're starting finally to get pushback from Congress. Congress, yeah. So walk us through this news, Ryan, if you will. Yeah, Congress, David is holding a digital asset subcommittee within the House Financial Services. They're scheduled to hold their first ever meeting on March 9th. And the hearing is titled this, coincidence or coordinated the administration's attack on the digital asset ecosystem. I think we would say

Starting point is 00:26:34 this is certainly coordinated activity. But it's really Congress's job to rein regulators in when they go after power vacuums and seem intent on killing an entire industry. It's good as well that a lot of the blame is being pushed back on those that are responsible for, namely the SEC and Gary Gensler's leadership over there. Senator Tim Scott called this the elephant in the room and said, and Warren Davidson called Gary Gensler's selective enforcement on the crypto industry. I think referring to that as troubling.

Starting point is 00:27:06 So that's specifically what this meeting in Congress is going to be about. Yeah. And this is how this has to end. Gary has gone from being a hard ass to being absolutely unhinged. So this is going to be a fight. And now we have to fight him. And Congress is picking up wind that like Congress doesn't like Gary necessarily. Like Congress has no interest in supporting Gary.

Starting point is 00:27:30 He is a rogue actor and a rogue agency. I hope that's the case. Brian Armstrong put a fantastic op-ed out in CNBC, and this is, let me just read a quote from it. This is part of the pushback and fight back. Yet while other jurisdictions progress, he's talking about outside of the U.S., the U.S. seems more focused on turf battles between regulators. No other country in the world has spent as much time and energy trying to convince its citizens that crypto assets are securities. Let's remember this whole securities. it's not even a topic of conversation in Europe. No.

Starting point is 00:28:06 I mean, we're just talking about... Europe is laughing at us, dude. We were just talking about media legislation, which is like, you know, decently, like, folks we talk to give it, like maybe a B minus. It's reasonable. It doesn't, it is completely sensible

Starting point is 00:28:19 on its interpretation of what a security is and what it's not. This is a rogue agency in the U.S. I'm not sure why Gary and others are making this such a big deal. It's absolutely stupid. And I think in general, the context for me is this, this U.S. anti-cryptop posture is crazy. It's a complete self-owned.

Starting point is 00:28:42 I mean, you've seen it. Like, the U.S. has the talent. We have the entrepreneurs. We have the capital to lead in crypto. We have the demand. Oh, yeah. And yeah, our regulators are saying to the builders, yeah, go build somewhere else. We don't want this here.

Starting point is 00:28:55 I think America is for, America is forgetting that has to compete. Right. on like it has to outbuild the rest of the world if it's going to stay competitive and um those in government just don't understand it yeah this is like my worst favorite thing about humanity about how like one bad person can fuck it up for the like billions of people yeah and certainly certainly some of the the class of 22 scammers certainly gave him more uh fuel to be able to you know who doesn't care about gary or anything that he has to say all of these scammers of 2021 and 2020.

Starting point is 00:29:31 Like, they just don't give, they don't care about this at all. Yeah, yeah, I know. It's frustrating. It's frustrating. Some other news to you, that is somewhat related to Silvergate Bank. What's this, David?

Starting point is 00:29:41 Yeah, so Silvergate Bank, as of this morning, stock tumbles 45% after a growing concern about the solvency of Silvergate. And so Silvergate reported a $1 billion loss in the fourth quarter. And this has caused a sort of run on the bank. there has not there's not been any actual symptoms of insolvency yet there have been concerning murmurings from actually Silvergate itself as well as other indications as well. Coinbase has no longer accepted or initiated payments to or from Silvergate and has rerouted customer deposits to a different bank. They were using Silvergate. Coinbase was.

Starting point is 00:30:19 Yes, they have other banks, but they have started to route payments to a different bank just that they stated as an abundance of caution. And so it was stated that Silvergate sold additional debt securities to repay debts this year. And they have said that further losses would mean that the bank would be less than well capitalized, is what they said. So this is one part of this is like, okay, banks take risk. That's what they do. That's the part of their business model. Crypto is risky. There's not that many banks in the crypto industry.

Starting point is 00:30:52 Therefore, the few banks that do serve crypto bear the general risk of kind of, the entire industry. We all know what happened with the insolvencies of 2022. And so that has impacted a large amount of Silvergate's clients, which makes them unable to pay back their loans to Silvergate, which means Silvergate has to eat some losses. And then in addition to that, Operation Chokepoint has really reduced the interest in investing in Silvergate or making Silvergate like a credit worthy bank. And so all of this has like led up. to this moment right now where like silvergate stock tumbles 45 percent coinbase doesn't want to use silver day out of an abundance of caution and so this is one part like kind of a cell phone out of the

Starting point is 00:31:37 crypto industry then like magnet like blown up because of operation choke point because of thanks gary they can't get they can't get banked anywhere else basically and it's it's gary it's to the entire administration that seems to be involved in operation uh choke point and uh the stock is certainly taking a tumble as you mentioned silver gate stock as a result so right the question is where are crypto exchanges going to actually bank in the U.S.? There's operation... This is not the banklessness that we want. This is the bad banklessness.

Starting point is 00:32:05 Yeah, this does not help liquidity inflows into crypto, and it cuts off a way for people to become more bankless. That's the bad news this week. The good news, though, David, is... Good news from here on out. Good news from here on out, all right? We got through the worst of it. Metamask is now in the Unity store.

Starting point is 00:32:23 David, do you know much about Unity, the gaming platform? Yeah, it's a very well-adopted, very high-profile game engine that many of your favorite games, if you are a gamer, is built off of. Metamask has released an SDK for incorporating Metamask into Unity. What does that mean? Web 3 games, asset-powered games, sign in with Ethereum in your Unity game, anything that you can think of that has to do with your private key on Ethereum into a Unity game engine. So, like, their topic of what that means is massive. but simply think of a more seamless injection of private keys into Unity games and all of the positive second order effects that come with that.

Starting point is 00:33:02 Did you know, David, there's 2.7 billion users and developers that use Unity for a game or a set of games? Do you think two point, did you mean 2.7 billion users who are playing with securities inside of their games, Ryan? Oh God, I hope not. Don't tell Gary. Well, we'll just DDoS Gary, you know. 2.7 billion of us?

Starting point is 00:33:22 With all of the gamers. I mean, Gary's like, everything's a security. Security is like, well, all of the gamers are playing with unregistered securities, Gary. Go get them. A court case for every air drop. I can't wait. Take all the 12-year-olds on. One by one. Enjoy that. This is the Unity Assets store, David. And they have the whole section called decentralization here. That's where you see this. So if you scroll down. Asset store, that doesn't mean crypto assets. That means like gaming assets. It's not like it. It's not a crypto asset, Gary. No, no, no. Don't worry. Or is it. Sorry. No. It's not. There are assets in the store. like gaming assets like download this package or whatever right yes yes because unity is is a but i don't know maybe gary is like oh i can regulate that it's like did you say asset did you say asset

Starting point is 00:34:04 a pops gary no this is a different type of asset all right it's a software asset anyway unity is a technology platform for for gamers i didn't realize how big it was holds about a 50% market share the only other like next biggest um gaming engine is the unreal engine which um you know and oh Pokemon Go, by the way, that is built with unity. So can you imagine like, oh, Metamask Wallet inside of Pokemon Go to collect your Pokemon? Can you imagine that? I can imagine that. I know you're a Pokemon Go player, aren't you?

Starting point is 00:34:36 I haven't played in a while, but yes. Yeah. I mean, anyway, watch out for those Pokemon securities, but it's pretty cool. I think this is going to be huge. This is going to help bring crypto mainstream. And I think crypto has some work to do with the gaming community. Can we just say that? Like, they don't like NFTs right now.

Starting point is 00:34:54 This is that. They're digital collectibles. They're not NFTs though. It's totally different thing. All right, what do we have coming up next? Coming up next. Oh my gosh, so much. Robin Hood Wall is out.

Starting point is 00:35:04 We got the Dietz. Scroll ZK. Evm. Soon TM. Oasis, you like that one, right? Oasis clawbacks money from a hacker to give back to its rightful owner, but was it the right thing to do? And DevCon is heading to Southeast Asia in 2024, which I don't, they didn't announce the specific city, so I don't have my flight.

Starting point is 00:35:24 yet, but you know I will soon. All of that and more. But first, a moment to talk about these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible. The Phantom wallet is coming to Ethereum. The number one wallet on Solana is bringing its millions of users and beloved UX to Ethereum and Polygon. If you haven't used Phantom before, you've been missing out. Phantom was one of the first wallets to pioneer Salonistaking inside the wallet and will be offering similar staking features for Ethereum and Polygon. But that's just staking. Phantom is also the best home for your NFTs. Phantom has a complete set of features to optimize your NFT experience. Pin your favorites, hide your uglies, burn the spam, and also manage your NFT sale listings from inside the wallet. Phantom is of course a multi-chain

Starting point is 00:36:03 wallet, but it makes chain management easy, displaying your transactions in a human readable format with automatic warnings for malicious transactions or fishing websites. Phantom has already saved over 20,000 users from getting scammed or hacked. So get on the Phantom wait list and be one of the first to access the multi-chain beta. There's a link in the show notes, or you can go to phantom.app slash waitlist to get access in late February. Hey, Bankless Nation. If you're listening to this, it's because you're on the free Bankless RSS feed. Did you know that there's an ad-free version of Bankless that comes with the Bankless Premium subscription?

Starting point is 00:36:35 No ads, just straight to the content. But that's just one of many things that a premium subscription gets you. There's also the token report, a monthly, bullish, bearish, neutral report on the hottest tokens of the month. And the regular updates from the token report go into the token Bible. your first stop shop for every token worth investigating in crypto. Bankless premium also gets you a 30% discount to the Permissionless Conference, which means it basically just pays for itself. There's also the AirDrop Guide to make sure you don't miss a drop in 2023.

Starting point is 00:37:04 But really, the best part about Bankless Premium is hanging out with me, Ryan, and the rest of the bankless team in the Inner Circle Discord only for premium members. Want the Alpha? Check out Ben the analyst Digen Pit, where you can ask him questions about the token report. Got a question? I've got my own Q&A. room for any questions that you might have. At bankless, we have huge things planned for 2023, including a new website with login with your Ethereum address capabilities, and we're super

Starting point is 00:37:29 excited to ship what we are calling Bankless 2.0 soon TM. So if you want extra help exploring the frontier, subscribe to Bankless Premium. It's under 50 cents a day and provides a wealth of knowledge and support on your journey West. I'll see you in the Discord. Robin Hood has a non-custodial crypto wallet now. They said that we're going to do it last summer. Now here it is. It's available on the iOS App Store. David, did you have a chance to download this and check it out? Can you give us the details? Yeah, amazingly, in the middle of Ethan, I did have a chance to actually download this. Okay, so here's the deal. It's an Ethereum-only wallet at the moment and Polygon. You can deposit and outbound and send tokens on the Ethereum layer one. You cannot trade tokens on the Ethereum

Starting point is 00:38:11 layer one. You can only send in and out. If you send into the Polygon network on the Robin Hood wallet, you can trade, and the trades, the trades that you make on the polygon side of Robin Hood wallet are gasless. That's the full extent of the wallet. When you say trade, you're doing it on a decentralized polygon protocol. Is that right? Some liquidity pool or something? This is a collaboration between Robin Hood, Polygon, and ZeroX. And so ZeroX has this relayer API that's used to swap. And so the Robin Hood wallet calls the ZeroX relayer API, swaps the tokens and that's all gasless and automatic and basically synonymous with the UX that Robin Hood users are used to in their normal wallet.

Starting point is 00:38:55 No other blockchains are supported. No Solana, no Avalanche. I mean, I'm sure they probably have plans to incorporate them at some time. But like right now it's a pretty constrained. Limited functionality now. Limited functionality. I'm sure they are going to add more. But right now it's just like on the Ethereum layer one is inbound and outbound transfers.

Starting point is 00:39:13 And then on the polygon layer two, it's inbound and rebound. outbound transfers and swaps via zero X. How was that haptic response, though? Remember their CEO telling us about that? I did not notice any haptic response. It's like when you hit a trade, it's like vibrates in your hand. Is you feel good? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:39:30 I haven't been able to trade because I sent in 25 U.S.C. to the Ethereum layer one. And I was like, okay, swap for ETH and I couldn't. Okay. But I'm sure they're going. I'm sure this is just the first debut. I'm sure they've got it. I love that they're doing this.

Starting point is 00:39:43 The U.S. is great. If you are used to the. Robin Hood app, it is almost the same kind of UX and UI layer. So it's great. And why do we care so much about this is because it's bankless, non-custodial wallet. It's super cool to see Robin Hood developing this and building this out using their resources to do that. In just expediency, I did

Starting point is 00:40:03 save my private keys to the cloud, which is a native feature in there. And I'm like, ooh, I hope they got that one right. You can also save your own private keys to yourself, the normal way. You can also trust Robin Hood to save it to the cloud. I think that's fine. As long as people know what they're like getting into, right? For $25, how much do you care? Well, I did $25. Other people.

Starting point is 00:40:24 Yeah. Yeah. In the future, I know. As long as they have the option, I'm content with it. It's a great first start. They do have the option. What's going on with scroll? First of all, what is scroll?

Starting point is 00:40:35 Scroll is a ZK. EVM that is trying to be EVM equivalent, which is an ambitious endeavor to use my word at the start of every weekly roll up. But they are going all the way down into the process. byte code making circuit things to make the EVM a ZK EVM, but also Ethereum equivalent. Very ambitious, very bullish if they can get it done. They are getting it done. The last I checked with them, they had like a 600 gigabyte RAM requirement in order to run their prover.

Starting point is 00:41:04 And then they dropped that down to 200, which is a huge order of magnitude of improvement, but still have a long way to go to make that accessible to more and more and more. Anyways, they have announced that their ZK EVM is live on. a goarly test net 100% permissionless. And so this is the last major step that they need in order to go to the scroll mainnet. This is way faster than I thought it would be, David. All the ZK.EVM stuff is happening very, very fast. So it's 100% open sourced.

Starting point is 00:41:33 Scroll has even frozen some of its code base to pass to auditors for review. So like the scroll ZKEVM main net, you can see it on the horizon. It is not that far off. So congrats to the scroll team. Ryan and I are angel investors in scroll. Yes, true. You find that on our disclosures page. Always.

Starting point is 00:41:52 This coin desk headline, Ethereum says ERC 4337, deployed, tested, and the beginning of the era of smart accounts. David, what is this ERC? What does it do? I can tell you're bullish about it. I'm so glad you asked. Yeah, ERC 4337. What's the difference between an EIP and ERC?

Starting point is 00:42:14 well, an EIP is something that gets hard forked in. An ERC is a smart contract standard. That's not technically the difference, but is good for these purposes. Like an ERC 20 is just a standard that everyone agrees to. It's not something that needs to be forked into the code of Ethereum. That's exactly right. Yes. So ERC 4337 was deployed to the Ethereum layer one.

Starting point is 00:42:35 What does that mean? Somebody just wrote a smart contract. There is ERC 4337, which is the account abstract and standard that has been worked on by Yoav Weiss, who is the man that we are looking at in this picture here, and many, many others. It is account abstraction inside of a smart contract. So typically, the way that people have thought about account abstraction is needing to enable it at the protocol layer. Yeah, that's honestly, going into this, that's how I thought it was going to happen. It needed to be forked in. Yeah, so that is still the long-term conclusion. But in the meantime, we have

Starting point is 00:43:06 ERC-4-337 as a smart contract to enable account abstraction as a smart contract. And so you can start to do smart contract wallet level stuff, account instruction level stuff on the Ethereum at layer one, starting it today. Instead of at the protocol native level, it's just a smart contract that you can use. But this has now been deployed. This caught a lot of people by surprise because I think you, like you, Ryan and me, it was like, oh, you can do this to be a smart contract? That's pretty cool. And so smart contract wallet enable capabilities is now on the Ethereum layer one. And this really is just like a middle step between native support at the protocol level. And it, but it can also hasten that because we can have more iteration,

Starting point is 00:43:42 more development, more experimentation, and more innovation on the actual protocol standard that will eventually get incorporated into the Ethereum Layer 1 at some future date and time. And the reason, by the way, guys, we're so excited about account abstraction is it enables a new era of smart contract wallets, which is basically like if you think about the, you know, the user experience of fintech, a mobile app like Venmo, for example, or Revolut in the UK and in Europe, this enables that, right? Like many of our wallets right now, they do not have seamless user experience, right?

Starting point is 00:44:18 You're signing transactions, you have no idea what you're signing. Smart contract wallets will smooth all of that out, make it incredibly easy to use. This is a big UX upgrade in the future, and this is the infrastructure for that UX upgrade. The metaphor that I've used to explain this is that all of your wallets, your metamask, your ledger, anything with an, it's called an externally owned account,

Starting point is 00:44:39 anything with a private key. That is a Bitcoin of a wallet, a Bitcoin version of a wallet. It's not programmable. It's simple and not programmable. Account abstraction, smart contract wallets, like kind of a hard word to understand. It's the Ethereum of wallets. It's a wallet with a chip in it. You can program your wallet to do anything. And that is how we get over a lot of U.S. and UI hurdles. Yeah. It's like people have coffee mugs, but there's an ember mug, which has a chip in it, which you can heat at any time. That is the equivalent. Has a chip in it.

Starting point is 00:45:11 I don't know about that metaphor. That was a speech. That's not the metaphor I would say. I think my metaphor is a little bit better. Not a sponsor the podcast. I'm a fan. Board Apes. They are doing things on the Bitcoin blockchain.

Starting point is 00:45:25 What are they up to? Yeah, Yuga Labs. So not Bored Apes. Board Apes parent Yuga Labs. People know the board Apes, but Yuga Labs is the software company behind Bored Apes. Said Monday, it's planning to release an NFT collection minted on the Ordinals

Starting point is 00:45:38 protocol. The 12-fold collection will feature 300 generative art NFTs created by Yucal Labs in place on a 12-by-12 grid, which serves as a visual allegory for the cartography of data on the Bitcoin blockchain. It will include 3D elements as well as hand-run features. Interesting, kind of divergent from what Yuga Labs typically does. This new collection does not come with any extended utility or has any affiliation with the current Ethereum-based collections out of Yuga Labs. Cool. I mean, this is what we're looking for out of ordinals is adoption by players who are here for the long term. And this is what Bitcoin needs.

Starting point is 00:46:16 We talked about ordinal's usage being up for a month straight. It's down. It's down. It's down. It's down for two weeks straight. But, I mean, there was a hype mania. It hit a peak. It could hit a trough and go back up.

Starting point is 00:46:27 But we are down two weeks in a row on ordinal usage. Yeah. This is good for Bitcoin. Whether Bitcoin maximalists know it or not, they need blocks-based demand in the future. And this helps with that. David, there was a bit of a controversy in defy circles last week as well. Oasis exploited its own wallet software to seize crypto stolen in the wormhole hack.

Starting point is 00:46:49 That is the title of this article. Can you tell us what happened? Yeah, so Oasis.com, it's a defy app. It seized assets, it clawed back assets related to the $140 million exploit of the wormhole bridge, if you remember that one last year, and then returned them to the authorized third part. Ryan, after being ordered by a court to do so. So a defy app was ordered by a court to seize assets that were stolen to return them to the rightful owner. Who was that rightful owner, by the way? That was Jump Capital. So the money got sent back. Our favorite people got sent back. Sorry to all the good people at Jump, but you guys have done some, not some great things. And like, I'm not afraid to admit that. And neither should you. Anyways, so OasisSod app, Claudeback, at, assets that were stolen from the wormhole bridge that were jump assets, gave them back to jump, after being ordered by a court. So like the instance is like, cool, we gave, we stole money back

Starting point is 00:47:48 from a hacker and gave it back to the rifle owner. But what precedent does this set? What are your thoughts on this, Ryan? Well, first of all, it's a surprise. Shouldn't, uh, OAS has not be able to do that? I think that's the first thing. If it's truly decentralized, then the makers of the protocol or the application shouldn't have the ability to go clawing. back funds to go reach into a multi-sig or into a smart contract and take those funds out. So can you talk about that side of the story? Because what we always say is it's not, don't be evil, it can't be evil. There is no ability to change an immutable code. But what happened in this case? Yeah. So the contracts for Oasis were upgradable, which meant there was a hole for

Starting point is 00:48:32 Oasis to upgrade their contracts to get that money back. This goes back to my philosophy of if you can be regulated, then you ought to be regulated. And if you can't be regulated, then you won't be regulated. And I think this is the case of an example of an app that could be regulated because clearly a court was able to order someone to do something to get the money back. And that puts Oasis in the category of can be regulated. Now, if they want to not be regulated, they shouldn't have upgradable smart contracts. I feel like that's a pretty safe claim to make. However, I do understand the utility of having upgradable smart contracts because

Starting point is 00:49:09 you can prevent from exploits, you can protect your software, you can protect your users, plenty of reasons to have upgradable smart contracts, but this is the tug of war, the push and pull, between decentralization and centralization. What does decentralization get us? Immutable money, which is great.

Starting point is 00:49:26 Also comes with the costs. And so this is just an example of where those two ends meet. Yeah, I think it's a reminder that there are many defy protocols and even layer twos and other things that you think are maximally decentralized and immutable that still have these upgrade hatches. And so we should be conscious of that. Now, for many of these protocols, they are temporary. But that temporary period of time could be months. It could also be

Starting point is 00:49:50 years. So people should be conscious of that. It's also like people are pretty upset with the Oasis Labs developers saying that it sets a bad precedent. One thing I'd say, though, is put yourself in the shoes of an oasis developer, you know you have this escape hatch. And by the way, this wasn't an intent, here's an important point. This wasn't, as I understand it, David, in an intentional escape hatch. There's actually a bug, a flaw in the way that the code is written that the wasis labs, um, devs happen to know about. Anyway, they received this court order and it's just like, well, you have the ability to withdraw the funds. And if you don't do it, you're going to get in trouble with the authorities, authorities, metaphorically, go to jail.

Starting point is 00:50:30 if you don't do this, right? Yeah. It would be so much simpler if you could just be like, we can't do it. There's no ability. There is no access point for us to withdraw this,

Starting point is 00:50:41 and that is maximally decentralized, so you're not put in the place where you have to make that decision. But as far as like, morally, ethically, should they have resisted and gone off to prison? And, I mean, the money was stolen, right?

Starting point is 00:50:53 So I'm not very upset at the Oasis devs for this. we just don't know what happened behind the scenes. The calculus is simple. Hey, your app has stolen money in it. Give it back or go to jail. I'm like, well, personally, I'm like, okay, I'll, that's, I'll give the money to the right day.

Starting point is 00:51:14 Exactly. I'll give the money to the right person and I won't go to jail. That's a win-win. And then maybe burn the private keys later, right? Yep. You know, that's just where we are as an industry. And I think we should, we should admit that's the case. David, Coinbase had some.

Starting point is 00:51:28 scheduled downtime this week, but I don't know if that's the story you wanted to get to. No, this is really just the lead into the next story. Coinbase has upcoming planned scheduled downtime. Ah. So this will be on Saturday for eight hours. Upcoming. Yeah. I don't know how frequent this is. I think this is maybe perhaps like a longer than normal, but this is totally like a normal thing for Coinbase to do. What's not a normal thing to do is have unscheduled downtime for a layer one blockchain. So on 19 hours and 20 minutes of downtime. The Salana Foundation set is still investigating why the network went down during the outage, the network the users could not process transactions, including NFT and defy trading.

Starting point is 00:52:08 And so I was asking some of the analysts who pay attention to Solana Defi on the bankless team. By the way, the analysts on the bankless team play attention to much more things beyond the Ethereum-centric nature of you and me, Ryan. And so I was asked him, like, so did this impact any like defy apps? Did anyone get liquidated when they shouldn't have? like what happened and they were like well there's not much tv left in salana tify really yeah i guess i guess i guess now it's more it's more it's kind of cultural like i guess it's more it's become more of that and less defy yeah and it's like we said this right the last time salana went down it was a good

Starting point is 00:52:45 while ago it was i don't know six nine months ago but the last time salana went down but like man you really not need to start building up lindy and you have to reset the lindy clock now you're went down for 19 hours. Imagine if the world of finance was built on this. Like, the whole point of crypto is to have 24-7-365 immutable smart contracts and defy services. If your layer one chain goes down, you get to, that puts, that gives certain people power and other people not have power because some people can process transactions when other people can't, and they will be able to have God mode over defy, over all defy on Solana in that one moment of time while that network is down and that you can't do that and so we have to set the lindy clock back on salana once again and so like

Starting point is 00:53:33 it's yeah i know but it's gonna sound like we're kind of over like salana bashing but like i just i just this is so important i totally believe that um certain things disqualify you from the race of layer one right and you frequent downtime long periods of downtime or you have to do an offline coordination to kind of restore it's one of those things So I know Solana, the community is working hard on this and building, and we wish them the best for this, but this has to be fixed during this bear market. You need to start building Lindy.

Starting point is 00:54:07 Every time you reset it, you go back so far. Yes. Like the Lindy is at zero. Like other, even non-Etherium chains have better Lindy than Salana. Not to harp on Salana too much, but apparently the Salana stores in New York City and Miami are also closing as well. So sign of these bearish times, I suppose. David, the FTX ex-engineering chief, Nishad Singh, pled guilty to criminal charges.

Starting point is 00:54:36 So I believe he joins Gary Wang and Caroline and some of the other FTX criminals. Still outstanding is Sam Bankman-Fried, but with all of his executives pleading guilty, he can't be too far behind. Is there anything else you want to add to this story? Yeah, Sam Bankman-Fried. It's not that he had many friends left, if any, but another. definitely one off of the list of potential Sam Bankman-Fried friends. This guy, I'm assuming, is going to

Starting point is 00:55:01 work with the authorities to settle his case in a favorable way possible, which is not going to help Sam Bankman-Fried. Meanwhile, Sam-Bankman-Fried, this like 29-year-old youngish dude, just living at home with mom and dad. Just watching football. Watch the football on a VPN. After stealing $15 billion.

Starting point is 00:55:20 Yeah. Strange. David, this is the DevCon news. Tell us about it. DevCon 7 has been announced. coming to Southeast Asia in 2024. No specific time, no specific place other than Southeast Asia, a very large place.

Starting point is 00:55:33 But keep your calendars open for 2020. For 2024? To go to Southeast Asia if you're interested in DevCon. Are they doing these every two years now? Or is there every 18 months? Because the last one was in 2022, right? In Bogota?

Starting point is 00:55:48 Yes, that was 2022 in Bogota in October. So I've talking to Joseph Schweitzer about this. There's no hard and fast rule for what they're doing. DevConnect is the smaller sister event to DevCon and the F has committed to doing DevConnact every single, not every single year, on a reoccurring basis.

Starting point is 00:56:07 And so I think the vibe here is that DevCon are like this binary star system that rotate around each other to use a metaphor with one star being bigger than the other, DevCon being the big star, DevConnect being the small star. This is just how my brain is... And one of them has a faster orbit, right?

Starting point is 00:56:23 Which is DevConnet. No, no, I think every 9 star,000. months is like one one one every nine months you get the dev connect which is the smaller one and then nine months later you get the devcon which is the big one hey that's cool southeast asia always interesting places that they host i mean i haven't gone to asia yet ryan this is going to be my first trip to asia oh there you go get ready book 24 so you're available david this is some bankless news and this is under our raises section uh i'll read the headline hosts of bankless podcast raising 35 million dollar crypto venture fund hey that's us i think

Starting point is 00:56:54 What's this about? Yeah. So, Ryan, you and I and our friend Ben Lekoff are starting bankless ventures. We are still pretty early in this process, but we are starting up a venture capital firm. Why are we doing this? Well, as people who listen to the bankless podcast know, Ryan and I do a bunch of angel investing. We also do a bunch of advisory work, and we enjoy supporting founders who are helping explore the frontier of crypto and the frontier of what it means to go bankless.

Starting point is 00:57:21 And so all we're really doing is now we are putting all of that effort that we're already doing into a structure that we are now calling bankless ventures. And so I think this conversation really got started, Ryan. We were like, hey, man, we're doing a lot of angel investing. Like, we should hire an analyst. We should, like, help, like, make this process easier for us. It's a lot of work. And so then when the conversation continues, like, well, that just starts to look like a VC firm. So really important point of emphasis.

Starting point is 00:57:49 we're already doing basically everything that it takes to do a VC firm, private market investing, angel investing, advisory work. And now we are putting that inside of a structure. The only thing that's really new here is now we're doing that with outside capital for LPs. And so that is kind of the, that's the really the thought process behind this. Nothing changes with respect to our schedule, still coming at you with all the content that we always have. And of course, our disclosures are always updated. So if you want to get a feel for the types of angel investments we have been doing,

Starting point is 00:58:21 the types of things that we'll be doing in the fund itself, you can head on over to bankless.com slash disclosures. Click the link there, and you'll see all of these things. And the reason why they honestly need to be organized in some sort of a different structure. But David, I don't know if I'd trust a guy in this kind of a jacket here. And it looks kind of like a crypto rebel here if I'd give this guy my money. Was this taken last night? That was at the bankless meetup.

Starting point is 00:58:47 And the first question that everyone probably asks is like, all right, how does bankless ventures affect the media side of things? And the very big and easy answer is that it just doesn't change anything at all and intentionally so. When we first thought about doing bankless ventures, our first exploration was a long conversation with lawyers as like, what would we have to change on the media side of things to do bankless ventures? Because we don't want to change anything on the media side of things. We want to preserve media to the maximum degree. And so after that conversation with lawyers, like because we have literally the industry's best disclosures, we also never do any page content ever on principle.

Starting point is 00:59:24 And we already have an editorial policy that makes all of our personal angel investments not impact our content decisions. Like we just learned that everything that we are already doing on the media side of things doesn't impact ventures. And ventures doesn't impact media. And so when we have been chatting with potential LPs at the very beginning of these chats, we make a very firm statement that at the very beginning of our call, that bankless media in no way will support bankless ventures. If any portfolio company wants to come on the podcast, and we've gotten plenty of questions or requests from our portfolio companies

Starting point is 00:59:56 that come on the podcast before, they will always have to do it the old-fashioned way, which is by building something worthy of covering and sufficiently interesting to the bankless audience. And with the investment funds that's flowing into crypto all over the place, of course, crypto is always hiring. You can check out the latest jobs on the bankless jobs board. That's bankless.com.

Starting point is 01:00:15 jobs uniswop labs needs a senior software engineer bankless is hiring some writers analysts social growth leads consensus wants a director of engineering there's still that adidas rule a global head of web three strategy and planning whole bunch more go over to the jobs board and check that out that's bankless dot pallet dot com slash jobs david what do we got coming up next coming up next we got the questions from the nation got some good ones as well as what uh ryan and i are excited about as well as the takes of the week so don't go anywhere we're going to get to all that and more right after talk to some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible. Arbitrum 1 is pioneering the world of secure Ethereum scalability

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Starting point is 01:01:33 bridge your assets, and start building your first app. With Arbitrum, experience Web3 development the way it was meant to be. Secure, fast, cheap, and friction-free. How many total airdrops have you gotten? This last bull market had a ton of them. Did you get them all? Maybe you missed one.

Starting point is 01:01:47 So here's what you should do. Go to Earnify and plug in your Ethereum wallet, and Earnify will tell you if you have any unclaimed airdrops that you can get. And it also does Po apps and mintable NFTs. Any kind of money that your wallet can claim, Earnify will tell you about it. And you should probably do it now because some air drops expire. And if you sign up for Earnify, they'll email you

Starting point is 01:02:05 anytime one of your wallets has a new air drop for it to make sure that you never lose anirdrop ever again. You can also upgrade to Earnify Premium to unlock access to air drops that are beyond the basics. and are able to set reminders for more wallets. And for just under $21 a month, it probably pays for itself with just oneirdrop. So plug in your wallets at Earnify and see what you get.

Starting point is 01:02:24 That's E-A-R-N-I.F-I. And make sure you never lose anotherirdrop. Got some questions of the week for you, the first from the Bankless Nation Discord, Simon Bruce, 1974 here saying, using base as an example, if a chain is built on the OP stack, that's the optimism stack,

Starting point is 01:02:41 does it still require a bridge to move assets to another chain? built on the optimism stack or optimism? Or is it as simple as sending the asset as a normal transaction? That's the question. What say you, David? The answer is yes and no. Right now, the answer is yes.

Starting point is 01:03:01 The idea about the OPS stack is in the future, that answer will be no. And the answer won't be ever perfectly no, but the answer trends towards no. Why is that such a confusing answer? So the idea that, yeah, the idea is that base and optimism are both on the O.P. stack, because of that common denominator, the bridge between these two chains has less risk and less dependencies and more standardization. And so the bridge between base and the OP stack is less bridgy than it would be. It had it been to like, I don't know, base to arbitram or base to polygon or something. Because of the common denominator of the OP stack, a lot of complexity is removed. And as further innovations, more innovations come to the scene, a lot of that complexity becomes abstracted and obfuscated away. And so, yes, there will always be a bridge. Right now,

Starting point is 01:03:53 that bridge is pretty bridgy, to use a very technical term. And then in the future, it will become less bridgy. And that is also true for all OP stack chains. And so the bridginess trends towards zero. However, it will never hit zero. But the idea is that with additional technologies, you can obfuscate and abstract a lot of the bridginess. I made an O.P. Stack video if you go to YouTube and type in bankless O.P. Stack. There's my face next to a thumbnail that's titled OP. Stack. If you want to learn more, click that video. It's all part of the same kind of, I guess, nation security apparatus, if you will.

Starting point is 01:04:28 It'll be more like traveling from New York to New Jersey than like New York to cross the border to Canada or something like this. Yeah. So imagine it's like, okay, we're in the United States in the 1700s. You can get from New York. to Washington State pretty easily. Well, not pretty easily. You can do it without crossing a passport control, but you still got to walk. And then you fast forward 300 years,

Starting point is 01:04:49 and then you can just fly really, really fast. The bridginess gets less bridgy. No high-speed rail, though, yet, which makes me better every time I think about that. Not yet. Come on, American. Okay, here's a question from Captain Randall Wall. I think I said that right.

Starting point is 01:05:04 Sorry, Captain. Apologies if that has already been covered, but what are your thoughts on the eigen layer and the potential impact of eith staking and price? Do you see this as helpful to alts in terms of securing validation? That first question of what is eigenlayer first? Maybe you have to define that. And what's the potential impact on eith staking and eith price? Yeah, so eigenlayer has just absolutely swept the world of crypto by storm just because of what it is.

Starting point is 01:05:30 And if you are curious about this answer to this question, it would behoove you, I think, to listen to the interview I did with Stryrom at the Interoperability Summit that I would to a couple days ago, where we talked about this subject in particular. What is eigenlayer? Igen layer is taking normal Ethereum staking and adding on additional, like additional, what I'm calling like mods, if you will. And so like not only are you staking your eth to Ethereum for all the normal reasons, but you can also use that ether stake that you've already staked to also secure something

Starting point is 01:05:59 else. So rather than having to have like secure, the idea is like a bond, right? It's like economic security. Yeah. So that's what you mean by modding? You're like, I'm going to secure this Ethereum main chain thing, but then for some additional risk and reward, I'll also do this other thing. Right. So imagine like chain link, you stake the link token to do the Oracle network. With eigenlayer, you can stake your eth to Ethereum, again, for normal staking reasons, and then also have that same stake also secure an Oracle network or a data availability network or generally anything that needs economic security. And so the idea is that this produces additional yields for e-stakers because they can secure more things,

Starting point is 01:06:39 but with additional slashing penalties if you lie or do something wrong for whatever additional thing that you're doing. So the question is, what is the potential impact on e-staking and price? For all of the, there was a tweet that we talked about forever ago. Egan layer will enable halal alt-layer ones for Eithmaxis. Sure. Which also deserves unpacking, so I'll do my best. The idea is that like all of these alt layer ones like Celestia, uh, subnets on avalanche, like all of these reasons to produce different alt layer like layer ones that would trigger the

Starting point is 01:07:12 decentralization maxis. Now you can just use Ethereum staking, normal Ethereum staking to do all of that same kind of services without having to have additional tokens or additional like chains or all that kind of stuff. And so it produces additional yields for your eth and it really imbues a lot of the reasons to make additional alt layer ones. and imbues that value into ether and ether staking. So in the pendulum, I talked about this with SRE-ROM, there's like a pendulum between polychainism, mesh network

Starting point is 01:07:41 of many, many, many chains and bridges. That's one end of the spectrum. And then the other end of the spectrum is like single one dominant layer one chain. There's always a spectrum of like where we are in the pendulum. And EigenLayer really pushes this towards there's really only need to be one dominant chain and everything else is less necessary. There's going to be a tug of war between these two things, but Eagan layers definitely pushing towards like,

Starting point is 01:08:06 all you really need to do is take Ether and then sign up for additional yield opportunities if you want. I think to the question the Captain is asking about impact on price. Oh, it's bullish. This is incredibly freaking bullish. Do you remember the idea that we'd come out with a couple of years ago about Ether, the Internet bond, which is the idea that Ether is an Internet bond

Starting point is 01:08:31 for the Ethereum ecosystem. That's what happens when you're stake and you're actually bonding it. And it occurs monetary premium in the way that a bond might. This is now Ethereum being able to export ether the asset as a bond

Starting point is 01:08:45 to other foreign chains or foreign protocols. And that is incredibly powerful because these kinds of monetary premium games like bonding type games are all power law games. So why would you bond with some other chain's native asset when that is far less liquid and far more volatile than ether the

Starting point is 01:09:07 internet bond so this is like if eigenlayer really picks up and that's still an if right we don't know for sure but if it picks up it is incredibly bullish for ether the asset as that the meme that we you know predicted a couple of years ago as the internet bond ether the asset really becomes a bond for securing things economically on the internet and wow that is a powerful place to be So that is why this technology is not just bullish for more chains, more experiments, more scalability, more expansion, but it's also incredibly bullish for ether the asset. And I don't even think we've come up with a model for that yet. Yeah. The most bullish way to articulate this is that go to coin gecko, filter out all tokens and only do layer one chains.

Starting point is 01:09:50 And as you go down the market cap stack, think of like all of those things, those special purposes, things that those chains do. And eigenlayer allows Ethereum to eat all of them. That's like the most bullish articulation about what Eagan layer does. Yep. It's definitely possible. Crazy, right? Yeah. All right, some takes this week.

Starting point is 01:10:10 This one from Ann Olson. That's A&E. eth. May 2016, Ethereum launches on Coinbase. May, 2023, Coinbase launches on Ethereum. My, how things change. This, to me, is a perfect. God, that deserves so much more likes.

Starting point is 01:10:26 This is a part. Well, look at me. I didn't even give it a like. There you go. This is the perfect articulation of the protocol sync thesis, I think. Yes, it does. Yes. The most credible, neutral technologies sync to the bottom of the stack and become the basis and the foundation for everything else.

Starting point is 01:10:44 Coinbase was started before Ethereum, and yet now it's building on top of Ethereum. That's incredible to me. And yeah, perfect articulation of what we've been talking about. When did we develop the protocol sync thesis? That was like 2019, I think. four years ahead of it pretty like I'm pretty sure this was one of the main articulation you said like eventually coinbase will build its own chain yeah and it will use its own chain to produce its products and services that was like prediction that I had no idea at the time

Starting point is 01:11:14 we had no idea it would be on a layer two the concept of layer two isn't really didn't even matter that is a side detail is the idea is that protocols slip under banks and that was the always the articulation uh and so like this is what this is what it means to be a thesis driven media a company. Man, sometimes we get things right, Ryan. Sometimes we do. Here's something else I think we'll get right, David. This is my tweet. Why don't you read it? Ryan Sean Adams says, the secret to success in any bear market.

Starting point is 01:11:42 One, learn, two, build. Three, accumulate. That's it. Walk us through this, Ryan. Yeah, I think that's really your job in the bear market. You're listening. So this is a bear market for you. And you've got to do those three things. Learn, build, and accumulate. Number one, like learn. Find people that are smarter than you in this space. Tune into informational resources that are trusted, that are long-term oriented, that have ideas and theses, and back those things up with research rather than kind of the pump and dumps.

Starting point is 01:12:12 Use as many defy protocols as you can. Travel in a pack in a community rather than alone. You'll learn faster that way. Join chats, join discords, follow people on crypto that you respect and want to learn from. that is what learn means and you have tons of time to do that during the bear market. Secondly, build. This is applying your talents, your skills, whether you're a podcast or maybe start a podcast or come on a podcast. If you're a writer, write something. If you're an artist, create art. If you're a musician, do music.

Starting point is 01:12:45 Experiment with NFTs. If you're an engineer, my God, there's so much you can do with that skill set. If you're front-end designer, if you're an organizer, you can organize things. You can govern things. There's so much that you can do by applying your talents in this crypto space. I know, David, that's very much what you did when you kind of entered in that, you know, 2017-2018 era. It's like you're really good at communication and, you know, like talking about narratives.

Starting point is 01:13:09 And so you did these things. And that progressed from kind of like, you know, part-time type work to it became your full-time gig. There was a massive opportunity to build. So much needs building. And so much is getting created right now. And you have the opportunity to be on the ground floor. And then third, don't forget to accumulate.

Starting point is 01:13:27 Don't forget to buy, this is the important, don't forget to buy the assets that are going to appreciate if your ideas around learning and kind of the building phase are successful. You have an opportunity to get a piece of, I'll call this, equity, not in the Gary Gensler's security equity line of thinking, but more than like in the upside of this entire industry. sometimes David, I see people that they've been in crypto, they've done incredible things, they know all sorts of things about it and they've built it, but they've made the mistake of not accumulating along the way, right? So they don't get to share with the rest of the community and that upside. Make sure you don't become one of those people. So whether that means dollar cost averaging in, again, don't risk more than you can afford

Starting point is 01:14:11 to lose, but the percentage will vary depending on who you are at your stage of life, your risk tolerance, all of these things, or lump sum. I mean, now is the time. It's still a bare market. Now is the time to accumulate. You don't want to accumulate during the top of the next Pico bowl run. You want to accumulate now. So that's it.

Starting point is 01:14:27 Like anybody else who's selling you other things of like 10 secrets to getting rich on crypto in like 90 days, that's all garbage. Only three things you need to do. This is proven. This is tested. Everybody who's doing well in crypto that we know, David has done these three things, learn, build, and accumulate. And the last thing I'll say is these things are all on you. it's stuff you have to go you're not going to get spoon fed this stuff you have to go pick up take some

Starting point is 01:14:53 responsibility in yourself and do it your own uh there you go this turned into um you know rsa dad talk but um i love it it's so important it's so important and you have time right now you're listening you're here you can go do these things don't wait yeah i'll just add this isn't necessarily easy to do these things but it's also not necessarily hard either and it is fun and it is fun to do it along the way. And so it's just a very simple roadmap. Don't overthink it. And make sure you have fun along the way.

Starting point is 01:15:26 There you go. That's what David always reminds me. We have to have fun along the way. This looks fun. I'm sorry, I missed it. What are we looking at, David? Yeah, so we had the first ever bankless nation meetup. The bankless nation manifested in real life.

Starting point is 01:15:39 Sometimes network states of what this is certainly becoming, Ryan, how to manifest it in real life at a brewery. man, it was awesome, Brian. It was also packed. Look how many people there are. There was like over 150 people there. Yeah, it was, the energy was great. So what's the vibe? How's the bankless community doing? How's everyone doing?

Starting point is 01:15:58 It was so many different people from so many different walks of life that all had like different reasons for like why they like bankless and why they listen. And so like there were people from Asia talking about like people from Korea talking about, hey, like I do a lot of translations of bankless content into other podcasts and other news. letters. The Bankless Brazil guys were there. They're always, they're, Bankless Brazil. I love Benclos in your. Oh, man. That's amazing. They love those guys. Anthony Sizano was there. Yeah, we had a ton of previous guests. We had the Alfalfa boys, my friends from San Diego. It was just a really cool time. I realized like halfway through, it was like, oh yeah, there's a microphone in

Starting point is 01:16:36 stage. I'm not used to going on a microphone alone, but like, I got to say something. So I hop on stage and just say, thanks everyone for coming. So yeah, thanks to everyone for coming. And then I kind of told the story of like, yeah, Ryan and I just started the podcast and newsletter with the intention of making content. But then we hired a few people, and then we hired a few more. And then I said, like, hey, if you're from HQ, everyone, raise your hand and then introduced the HQ one by one by one. And I was able to make a big thanks to all the team that was able to support this. Because like we would not, we would not be able to do organize a meetup without the actual team behind us. And so this particular East Denver

Starting point is 01:17:15 is the event where the bankless HQ team has showed up the most. I'm currently in an Airbnb that we're calling the bankless dorm. Six or seven other people here. So we got Luke and Dave helping me record content, which is why the in real life conference interviews are going to be the highest quality, high production interviews that we've ever done at the conference. And even though they're still going to get you this roll up out.

Starting point is 01:17:39 Yes. Yes. Dave's in right here. I'm looking at him right now. God bless you, Dave. I mean, giving me a wave. And then there is Chris. SIE who is handing out all the PO apps and like talking to everyone in the bankless nation.

Starting point is 01:17:50 So this is, I think, the choice, Ryan, to move beyond just a fun little lifestyle business and grow this into what is becoming a network state of sorts. I think was a good move. That's really cool. I know, like, so I haven't met as many of you guys, Bankless Nation in real life as I'd like to. But the times that I have, it's always felt like just like instant connection, like kindred spirit. like different places in the world, maybe different language, all sorts of differences. And yet we're all kind of like one group that is going west together. Yes, it's the most diverse group of people from all around the world, from all these

Starting point is 01:18:28 various different interests and like meaning and purpose for being here. Everyone just like gets along so well. It's amazing. I love it. Really cool. All right. So that's what I'm excited about. Is that what you're excited about?

Starting point is 01:18:41 That's what's excited about? Okay. Cool. Well, what are you excited about, Ryan? David, I'm excited about how this bear market is shaping up. Like, I don't care what anyone says. This is my favorite bear market ever, maybe the best ever. And that's because the tourists are gone.

Starting point is 01:18:56 The settlers are here. They know why they're here. We have product market fit. We're not going to run out of money this time. I think we're like fairly well capitalized. This was not the case in 2018 and 2019. The riffraff and the scammers are quiet. They're going to jail or they've fled to.

Starting point is 01:19:13 you know, places where they can't get caught and the builders are building. And I think that's what you're seeing at ETH Denver is just a whole bunch of builders getting together more than ever during this bear market. They're not dismayed by what's going on. They're not put out by the regulators. They're just heads down building. And so that's why this is one of the most exciting times. Honestly, I've been in crypto. And I can say that. Like, I don't know that. I mean, 2017 was exciting. It's kind of like discovery. 2018 and 2019 were kind of a grind of figuring this out and finding product market fit. 2020 was exciting because it felt like some of the thesis was coming true.

Starting point is 01:19:54 2021, uh, things were starting to go off the rails. I hated. 2021 was great. It was great. It was a slog. Totally. And then 2022, I was just like, it sucked. I was very disappointed with, um, with 2022 and all the shenanigans that that went on.

Starting point is 01:20:09 2023, it just is feeling like it's shaping up to me my favorite year in crypto yet because we got the settlers, we got the product market fit, we got a little bit of money, we got funded, and so now we can we can head west and build out this movement and be ready for the next wave of adoption. So that's what I'm excited about this week. Yeah, the only thing bad about 2023 is Gary Gensler, but there are so many ways to turn that evilness that Gary Gensler's bringing to us is into something like really, really good. Like it's, we're very, we're We're learning to fight in the Capitol Hill. And I think there's a way to make lemons out eliminated.

Starting point is 01:20:45 He's going to level us up, man. It's one boss. It's not the final boss still. But it's a boss fight. And so, okay, bring it. Let's do it. And like everything else in crypto is coming together. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:20:54 Yep. David, meme of the week. I haven't seen this yet, but I did see the parent tweet. So this was you and Anthony Sasano. It says, caption this. That's David in his jacket. And Anthony, you guys together at Heath Denver. So I think we're about to look at a caption, yeah?

Starting point is 01:21:09 Yeah, yeah. So this is the third time I've met Anthony Cizano in real life. Like I first saw him at ZK Day and gave him big hug, but then had to run off. I was like, oh, that's one of my best friends that I haven't seen him so long, but I've got to go talk to this person. But then I've got to come back to him. But it's just like so fun, like how casual it is. Like, oh, Anthony, in real life now. But it's always so good to see him. So we took a photo and I put out this captioned this header on the photo.

Starting point is 01:21:33 Yeah. And we're about to look at the winner. This is the winner. Okay, let me look like this. Okay. This is Gimley. Of course, Lord of the Rings. Thank you. You told me I'd like this. Never thought I'd die. Fighting side by side with an elf. That is Gimley saying this. And of course, Gimli is of course, Anthony, because of, you know, the beard. The big, big beard. I get it. Well, you guys are not opposing tribes. You guys are the same tribes. So you're both dwarves.

Starting point is 01:21:58 Yeah, but we're just super snarky with each other. Yeah, we're like, we're like brothers who fight all the time. Yeah, all right. Givley and his brothers. He has a lot of big dwarf family. I'm like a loss and he's Gimley. that's awesome I'm an elf apparently of course you'd want to be legless I understand that sorry sorry for that Anthony David loves you though

Starting point is 01:22:17 well well Anthony was a big fan of this response as well that's good all right guys that's been it the Heath Denver edition I guess next week we'll be talking a little bit about Heath Denver too but David's getting ready because the conference is actually started right now I am literally about to run off to

Starting point is 01:22:34 Shelling Point to give my talk and then Heath Denver conference for the rest of the day so you've always got got to leave. Yeah, we'll get some content to you guys, though, pretty soon. So you'll feel like you're there. Risk and disclaimers, got to let you know. None of this has been financial advice. It never is. It's not legal advice either. Who knows what a security is? I don't even think Gary Gensler knows. I have no idea. Crypto is risky. You could lose what you put in, but we are headed west. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone, but we're glad you're

Starting point is 01:22:59 with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot. Hey, we hope you enjoyed the video. If you did, head over to Bankless HQ right now to develop your crypto investing skills and learn how to free yourself from banks and gain your financial independence. We recommend joining our daily newsletter, podcast, and community as a bankless premium subscriber to get the most out of your bankless experience. You'll get access to our market analysis, our alpha leaks, and exclusive content, and even the bankless token for airdrops, raffles, and unlocks. If you're interested in crypto, the bankless community is where you want to be. Click the link in the description to become a bankless premium

Starting point is 01:23:37 subscriber today. Also, don't forget to subscribe to the channel for in-depth interviews with industry leaders, ask me anythings, and weekly roll-ups where we summarize the week in crypto and other fantastic content. Thanks everyone for watching and being on the journey as we build out the Bankless Nation.

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