Bankless - SotN#31: The Rise of SushiSwap, with 0xMaki (Sushi vs Uniswap, Differentiation, Future of Sushi)

Episode Date: January 27, 2021

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Welcome everyone to another episode of State of the Nation. David, how are you doing today? Absolutely fantastic. I think we have a pretty interesting state of the nation ahead of us. Zero X Mackey from Sushi Swap. This will be the first pseudo-anonymous camera off state of the nation that we've ever had, at least with a guest. Our cameras are obviously on, but our guest, Zero X Mackey, he's on standby with his

camera off because he's pseudo-anonymous. And that's kind of how the Sushi Swap Protocol roles. So we're going to get a little bit more into that later. This is going to be a super fascinating episode. I think you're going to learn a lot. If this is your first state of the nation, these come out every Tuesday. We try to live stream them on YouTube. Then we put the video up. Then we get the podcast out to our podcast listeners. So this is an opportunity for us to relate some of the interesting things that are going on in the bankless nation to big picture stuff. We're going to be getting to that zero X Machi conversation in just a minute. But David,

We've got some new stuff going on in the Bankless Nation as well. We had a fantastic episode with Justin Drake that just came out this past Monday. I think it was our most bullish Ethereum episode yet. This may be bold to say, because the topic was cryptography. What were some of your takeaways from this episode? Yeah, Justin Drake, this was a unique podcast to come out of the Bankless podcast. and I think might be my favorite episode that we've ever done so far. It's also our longest.

It's a marathon at two hours and 20 minutes. And I think what makes this episode so unique was that Justin Drake, who is an Ethereum researcher, by the way, he works for the EF. He's a he's a cryptographer, came to us with this proposal for like what he thought would be a really, really cool episode. And he was totally right. The idea came to him when he heard us do this like bullcase for Ethereum, bullcase for ETH series that we did, you know, with Eric Connor,

Anthony Zazano, D. D.C. investor. And then we had the guys at Eath Capital on. And then Justin Drake wanted to introduce what he calls moon math, bull case for cryptography. And I think my biggest takeaway, just as a little teaser for what's in that episode, everyone should totally listen to it, is what I'm now calling Drake's razor, where Justin Drake has, Justin Drake has two rules of thumb that he lives by that I think this whole entire industry is pinned on. Whereas if you can use cryptography, use cryptography, but if you can't use cryptography, use crypto-economics. And this is, of course, in relation to building something, building an app on top of Ethereum, or actually creating a consensus protocol like Ethereum itself, Ethereum the Protocol, or anything

else in this cryptocurrency industry. Use cryptography if you can, but if you can't, you can use crypto-economics. And I think that's going to be a very valuable tool, very relevant to the protocol-sting thesis, and something that's really a really strong mental model that I got out of that episode. Yeah, and I was just so struck by. by how far we've yet to come on the cryptography front. Like this is basically, this moon math that you're talking about is basically Moore's Law for crypto. And we're just at the very start of this trajectory of crypto innovation, crypto-cropography

innovation, really. And that's going to make all of our blockchain systems that much better. We also have Yanov from the graph, who's coming on an AMA community, asked me anything this Thursday, 12 o'clock Eastern. So check that out. And Jeremy Aller, our conversation with the CEO of Circle, he is one of the main leaders of USC, the staple coin. He came on the podcast. That conversation is coming out Monday. Any takeaways from Jeremy Aller, David? Jeremy Aller is, has been at the forefront of what has been an extremely active quarter of crypto regulation, right? You know, originally people,

always thought that like Bitcoin is going to be the target of crypto regulation. But Bitcoin seems to be kind of getting a pass. And what actually seems to be the target of crypto regulation has been stable coins, crypto dollars, and primarily USDC. We saw this with this Stable Act. But then we also saw this with FinC's guidance on self-hosted wallets that is very relevant to stable coins. And so Jeremy Aller, as the founder behind the USDC crypto dollar, has had to take the brunt of this like regulatory, this highly active regulatory environment as it relates to our industry. So we mainly get that perspective out of Jeremy. But then, of course, we also talk about USC inside of Defi, which was a very fun conversation.

So stay tuned for that one coming out next to Monday. Jeremy is bullish Defi. He's bullish Ethereum. Guys, you can hear all about our after the podcast conversation as well. David, we started doing these debrief episodes. It's available for bankless premium subscribers. and that's really an opportunity for you and I. We used to have these discussions all the time after our podcast

to actually talk about the podcast that was and do a full debrief of our thoughts. That I think is one of the times I level up the most. It's those after podcast conversations where we sort of dump our thoughts and our primary takeaways and talk about them. And that's going to be now made available for bankless premium members. Yeah, I do get a lot of.

of learning out of those conversations. And I'm pretty happy that we are making these conversations available to Bankless, Bankless Premium subscribers. One of the, my favorite things about bankless is that there's two of us. And so we actually get to like throw ideas back between each other's because like, obviously one person can only have one person's ideas. And so these are the times where we, we sit and reflect upon the podcast that we just had.

Literally, as soon as we're done recording a podcast, Ryan and I hop into a Zoom and be like, so to make sure it's not stale, then we hop into a Zoom and hit record. And so that's what those debriefs are, 20, 30 minutes long for the bankless premium subscribers. So if you are interested in those, there is a link in the show notes available to you so you can go watch those. All right, David, let's start with the question. I ask you for every state of the nation. What is the state of the nation today? The state of the nation is growing.

We are growing the pie. Like, I'm sure you are getting text messages, Ryan, I'm getting text messages about people who are interested in Bitcoin, interested in Ethereum, interested in defy, trying to figure out what this is all about. And of course, people are just throwing money at this industry right now, right? Like, we are not in a scarce environment right now. There is less competition going on. And I think that's kind of why Bitcoiners and Ethereum, these ecosystems have generally separated is because, like, in bare markets, people fight, right?

But in bull markets, there's abundance. There's not much need for fighting. Like, all protocols are receiving basically all the funding that they need to continue. And I see this dynamic. And what this is really relevant to is the unison. swap versus sushi swap conversation. I think a lot of, there's a decent number of people that perhaps have a bad taste in their mouth about sushi swap from the way that it was a spawn, from the way that was birthed into the world. There's this conversation of a vampire attack.

I think we're going to get into the subject when we talk to Mackey. But there's this competitive air about like, you know, if sushi swap wins, uniswap loses. No, or vice versa, uniswap wins or sushi swap uses. Like, no, I don't think that's what's going on. I think this pie that we have, this defy pie is growing at such an incredibly large rate that like the fact that there is both uniswap and sushi swap, which are maximizing in their own core competencies, illustrates like how much abundance there is in this world right now, especially in the world of defy. And so the state of the nation, Ryan, it's growing. We are growing. Absolutely. Well said. I think very often the crypto tried to sort of get into this trap of thinking that this is a fixed pie, fix some game. It's not

even within different chains, Bitcoin plus Ethereum. Bitcoin is better because Ethereum exists. Ethereum is better because Bitcoin exists. This is all on ramps from the traditional banking system to this new banking system. And it is all additive. And I think that's what the sushi swap versus Uniswap example really, really showcases. It is because of sushi swap's existence, Uniswap is that much better and has that much more voluntary. David, we're going to get to that in just a minute. But first, we should take a minute to talk about the sponsors that made this episode possible. If you are looking for a product that connects your Fiat bank account with defy tokens and products,

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card. That's monolith.xyz. All right, guys, zero-xmaki of the sushi swap protocol. Welcome to the bankless state of the nation. How are you doing today, sir? Hey, Ryan. A David, David, thank you for having me. Just very quick intro, I'm a core contributor to sushi swap. I don't actually get a code. We have like a CTO and a bunch of core developer helping on this side of things. So really, I'm just instrumental in growing the protocol, making sure that the community is tended to and so on. I'm the one entering pretty much everything. And you know, I think where we should start is could you give us some history. So for folks that weren't here, don't remember, for me, DFI Summers was sort of a blur

in many ways. Can you give us a history of the project? Like, how did things start? Take us, take us through the story so far. Yeah, sure, no problem. So we started the end of August with only a medium article, Discord. And then we just, we grow, we grew to 1.08 billion. I think in TVL in almost a week or so, which all came from Uniswap LP tokens at first, before we had our first migration to our own set of smart contract that were basically a fork of the Uniswop ones. And all of this was made by Chef Nomi,

which was one of the three co-founder back then, including me and Sushi Swap chef. So this is kind of, of how we got started. The goal were very clear from the beginning. It was going to be a community led fork of Funeswap. And then it kind of grew into this massive, I guess, protocol and umbrella under like an open org model that was pioneered by yarn, Wi-Fi and so on. So this is kind of where we started. And since then we kind of keep iterating. We have been funding some teams to work on multiple projects that are in the same ecosystem as sushi.

So we have bento bugs, we have Usoku, we have miso and so on. All of these are added by different teams of developers. Some of them are more supported by the core team than others and so on. So Zero X Mackey, let's hear a little bit about your story. How did you come to be a contributor to the Sushi Swat Protocol? protocol. It's pretty simple. I've been like a fervent Ethereum community members since I would say early 2017 or so before the big ICO mania. I got interested back to crypto after I guess being dormant for three, four years. And then I discovered Ethereum and all of the possibilities of

smart contract. And from there, I kind of, I've always wanted to join the ecosystem in the community, but never really add any, how can I say, experience in the field. So it was very hard for me to get a confidence to basically take ownership and go on and just send some resume and etc. So I just never participated until I kind of saw sushi swap. And I've always wanted to contribute to uniswap and kind of the Dex field. So I took ownership and I just rolled with it, you know? So, Maki, what, yeah, yeah, what would you say? I think my, part of my, some folks over Defy Summer have kind of a bad taste left in their mouth still with sushi swap.

You know, I think part of it was initially the birth, the genesis of sushi swap. So I'm called it kind of a vampire attack of this other defy darling, which is Uniswap. I would love for you to talk about that. And then also kind of the second event that happened is Chef Nomi. and like maybe describe that because that I have still a lingering taste and bad taste in my mouth from, I guess probably the chef-nomi event. Can you talk about what happened there and its impact in kind of the history and trajectory of sushi swap?

Yeah, no problem. I mean, we can keep it very simply. The fact that we call it an attack when, you know, back then Uniswap at top maybe 250, million dollars in TVL is pretty, I think, ridiculous. A lot of people got introduced to being an LP because of this whole kind of liquidity mining phase and craze, et cetera. So calling it an attack is kind of really, I think, meaningless in a way. I think it was just like we unlocked for the first time an amount of liquidity and, you know,

assets that were dormant in the ecosystem. And this is what is bringing, you know, so much, I would say, attention to the space and the ecosystem. We basically were able to grow more in one month than the entire year of 2020 with all these incentives and kind of teaching people, newcomers, how to LP for the first time. Before that, you know, you were only like putting some assets and they were quote-unquote giving you tokens. Now we were actually helping and this had this tremendous impact of exchanging the game, right? We went from $500 million to $1 billion, locked in DFI to today. We're at $26 billion.

And I think we're on track to $100 million by the end of the year. And how do you do this? You bring new people to the ecosystem. You make sure that they are able to easily earn yield on their assets and product-vise them. So Mackey, David State of the Nation that this week was growing the pie. And you really feel like Sushi Swap did that not only for DFI, but also for Uniswap. It brought more volume and value to the defy ecosystem and also to Uniswap. Yeah, what happened is we were able to not only, I guess, make them launch a token to actually be open and governed by the community.

But we were also able to make sure that these people were incentivized. to provide liquidity. So what we did is the biggest gift that LP could have wished for in a very long time. And this is kind of what I am kind of spirited in here. It's not about just like, oh, it's a fork or it's not a fork.

It's not about making sure that LPs are taken care of. It's not just a 0.3% fee going to them anymore. It's, you know, I think we're going to be seeing a lot of innovation coming on this side of things where capital is going to be not just more efficient, but capital is going to be more smart. Capital strategy to deploy capital is going to be less with less risk, less impermanent loss or divergence loss, whatever you want to call it. And yeah, this is kind of it.

For Nomi, I think, very quickly, a brief on the subject. It has been quite some time and, you know, he's not involved anymore in the project. I think there was some inflammatory, I guess, toxic comments being made and thrown around on Twitter. everyone was all bit we said at Flore de Poe in French so I would say everything was tense back then and

you know it's we're past this I don't think his actions were to praise at all but we everyone kind of was under pressure he cracked it a little bit and here we are now it's past us and we can make sure that this is

community owned And, yeah, he's left in the project. He's gone, but the community is marching on, right? Exactly. I do think that the fact that this project succeed, even though that we had like, I guess, this first incident, it just makes sushi swaps stronger every time along the stats, right? Yeah.

We are, you know, improving. We have, like, difficulties all the time, but we are making sure to fix the problem that we have on. our way and so on. I want to go back to your comment, Mackey, about Uniswap was, you know, Uniswap, of course, famously airdropped a token to its users in September. How much of their decision to AirDrop do you think was because of Sushi Swap? I don't know about the decision to AirDrop.

I think it was like a very good marketing stunt. I think it kind of made sure to align in the sense. for people that used the project before and to guarantee that some of the I guess most fervent uniswap LP and you know like believer would have like a say in the protocol you don't give like a thousand token to sucks holder for fun right you want to have the most diehard fan of your protocol being able to have like a meaningful voice and I think that this was great I don't really I don't really agree with how the governance was been kind of blocked or you know like the requirements were very strict at first they are in a different

legal landscape than us they are based in the US so I do understand all the ramification there so so bottom line is though you think that the birth of sushi swap brought some competitive pressures to to uniswap even and and provided more benefits for both uniswap users and their LPs. I do think so yet. So there's a very interesting story here because Uniswap got off to this very rocky start and I am personally convinced that the vampire attack was less of an attack and more of a value ad.

Yet that was the branding. And then on top of the branding of the attack on Uniswap, there was the chef Nomi that took the dev fund and ran. That's behind us. sushi swap has turned into this pillar of a community and has kind of led the charge into seeing what can really be done when you have a bottom up community, take control over a project, and turn it into something awesome. And so now the branding behind sushi swap has nothing to do with, you know, chef Nomi or the vampire attack. And it's now something that's, I would say, is largely different. differentiated. What would you, could you describe the process that sushi swap went through to go,

to get to this point? Like, people thought, including me, that sushi swap was, was dead in the three-month, like, D-5 bear market between D-Fi summer and where we are now. Yet, that was the opposite of the case. Maybe you can tell us a story of, like, how sushi swap came to be into what it is now. I think it's very easy, David. There's always someone to end. share at sushi. Like whether you want to be building, we will help you. We will give you a grant if, you know, like the work has been done and so on. We will never like, we will always support efforts of, you know, people that are willing to do partnership. We have like, you have some issues with, you know, like uniswap in itself. Then you can fix it at sushi and it's going to be implemented

and push granted that it passed like all the security, you know, the workflow. But what is it very important is pretty much we were able to get like a die of community of builder and people that resonated with this ethos of you know actually community led where you know actions and votes are accessible to anyone like this is kind of what made us you know very different we have like a very clear uh token actual value to actual value to the token uh i mean the rules are very simple and it's just how we were able to grow i think is by collaborating with with other protocols, making sure that our dev designer

or else are tended to, and so on. Like this is just the key, it's collaboration, it's being open. We're not like a team, we're not based in, you know, in a single country or city. There's a lot of hurdles to this, you know, and the way we work as an open or can be very messy. But once you get like inside this Discord,

once you get inside the talking, the forums, you get, you kind of realize that there is actually like a soul into this project. There's a community that loves what we're doing. And I think this is why we're able to come back from this bear market. So what would you say is sushi swap's core competencies? What are the things that it's good at that really differentiates itself from Uniswap? We're very good at many things.

I would say, like, first of all, we are always improving, I guess, everything related to the UI. We are, you know, even if we started with like three different ones, It was super messy at first. We're trying to unify all of this together into something that is more easy. We were able to get integration with partners that were not able to get on Uniswap for months because they had no support. So we are like, we're providing a white glove service to like all the project with a core dev. This is just like what we are good at. Right now we're also very open-minded on other alternatives on the blockchain.

So we're thinking about no, cross-chain swaps on Ethereum powered by Torch chain. We're thinking about going on PolkaDot with Moonbeam and so on. We even have like a grant right now for a move to the ceramic system, not moving in any liquidity, but literally opening new branches where, you know, assets can be swapped on other chains. And I think this is the fact, this is very important because if you're not, I guess, open to other communities and bridge them together, then what is the point of being community-led and so close-minded.

I think that fits into the conversation of where we wanted to take this, because I think one of the differentiators between Sushi Swap and Uni Swap is that Sushi Swap has developers that talk to other projects, famously WIRE and Yerne, I think, is actually the correct pronunciation. Mackey, maybe you could talk about the relationship between Sushi Swap and Yerne. Yeah, the urine ecosystem is very fascinating. It's really just a group of individuals with the same values, I think. We're talking about this centralization.

We're talking about open org. We're talking about fervent developers, like people that are intense and everything that they do. And we are able to kind of leverage each other competencies and basically help each other. It's just like an alliance in a way where we all. get together to work and make sure to execute on the same pace. It can be, right now I can tell you for a fact that we are swamped with things to do. So it can be very difficult, but every month, I think or so, every two weeks, we have like these inter-team calls where we can make sure that, you know, we're on pace on

partnership, collaboration and so on. And, you know, it has been wonderful to see like, you know, cream, pickle, acro, yearn all of these wonderful project in mafia and kind of slowly uniting into something. So we've kind of seen this pattern, Maki, I think before in crypto, right? So you have sort of your, almost your first mover, and then you have your fast mover, right? So in the crypto bank world, you have Coinbase first mover, and then you have Binance, which is fast mover. And then in the decentralized lending world, you have compound, which is kind of first mover, and they're a bit more slow and cautious. And then you have Ave, which is like all the assets.

We're going to try flash loans. We're going to build all of these new things. We're going to embrace assets that compound doesn't first. We're going to push the bleeding edge a bit more. Is that the right dichotomy, would you say, with the difference between a uniswap and a sushi swap now, that uniswap? is kind of first mover, whereas sushi swap is trying to be a fast mover that's a bit more embracing of things that might be, you know, cutting edge. It's a good, it's a good economy or analogy. I don't think it's fair to say that, you know, we're kind of the fast mover of Uniswap

because I do believe that they are right now, are that working on some groundbreaking innovation and so on. We are really just like trying to do our own path from now on. And, you know, we're going to capitalize on composability and flexibility of things. I don't know if you've, maybe we're going to talk about this later on the, for what is coming up for sushi, but we're trying to bridge, you know, like a different world at the moment.

We want to make sure that the defy can access retail and, you know, like the centralized exchange of this world to make sure that defy can grow even bigger. We do have also like other plans for scalability and so on, but maybe we can talk more about this later. The fast mover is, it would say that Uniswap is not moving, and I think that's not fair. How would you differentiate the sushi asset between the Uni asset? Like, how would you characterize how Uniswap the protocol leverages and uses its Uni the asset?

And then how would you compare that to how sushi leverages sushi the asset? I think Uni is just a type of sushi personally. I think they will try to at some point get some value. I could roll to the token. Otherwise, I don't really see the value in just a pure governance token that, you know, votes. And the way that's been distributed and so on, it's very hard to get to this tipping point for voting and proposing and so on. I do know they have like, they're using compound contract, right? So they can, in theory, ask for more vote, but it's still very complicated.

I think the egg sushi or like the sushi in itself is not just attracting fees from the AMM too. You know, like this is kind of part of the strategy. It's going to be coming from multiple product under the same umbrella. I think that's one of the key differentiation. Unless UNICEWP starts to expand as like, you know, over the AMM revealed, it's always going to be very two different product. The goal is the same. It's governance.

but we're also like paying or token holders. We are giving it. Oh, go ahead. Yeah, I don't want to box you in again with another like kind of pattern or dichotomy, but like I'm about to try another one on you. So it seems like there's also another dichotomy with DFI protocols in that you get for a similar market, you get one protocol that is kind of U.S.-based, has Silicon Valley type investment,

or traditional venture investment. And then you get another protocol that is outside of the U.S., outside of traditional U.S. legal apparatus, not necessarily venture funded, more bottom-up community. So again, an AVE versus compound kind of like comes to mind, right? Or like a maker versus synthetics. Do you think the fact that your founders are pseudo-anonymous outside of the U.S., does that give you more flexibility in terms of the things you can build?

We're just talking about value accrual to sushi the token. Does that even give you more flexibility to design a higher value accrual token? What are the benefits there in your approach? Yeah, I do think that is beneficial and, you know, instrumental in the success of sushi. This is kind of tricky. I don't know why the U.S. government is so constraining all this innovation, blockchain, What we're seeing is anyway, like most of these teams are now outside of the U.S. We're like going to blockchain up like Singapore, Taiwan, and in Europe, like Portugal and so on.

It's just going to keep going this way because we want a future that is bankless. We want a future that is decentralized. And what happened is you are risking prison to build like, I guess, the future of finance in the U.S. So might as well just leave. But this is part of why we were anonymous. This is kind of the reason. It's not... Mackie, I wanted to ask questions about V2.

And of course, if there's going to be something similar to Uniswap's plans to V2 or if sushi has their own plans to V2, we're going to get into that topic of conversation. But first, we're going to take a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible. Avey is a borrowing and lending protocol on Ethereum. and just recently released AVE version 2, which has a ton of cool new features that makes using AVE even more powerful. With AVE, you can leverage the full power of defy money

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And if you trade more than $100 within the first 30 days after signup, you'll be gifted a free $15 bonus. Check them out, jemini.com slash go bankless. No, Uniswap is working very hard to pioneer their own L2, hopefully it's fantastic. And we want to ask about sushi's plans for L2s. Is sushi just looking towards uniswap, kind of like how the rest of us are, about what their plans are for getting onto an L2? Or are you guys kind of carving your own path?

And if you are, what is that path to exchanging on an L2 so users can save on gas fees? Sure. So very quickly, I do think that later 2, like for 221ers, are going to be massive. I think we're going to see for the first time a real adoption of this tech. and because we're getting to a moment where, you know, there will be, they're going to be mature enough to power like AMM and so on. But beside that,

I don't think we're going to be rushing to release on this, on this tech. We're like right now exploring all of our options with, you know, ZK roll-ups, Arbitrom, Starkware, ZK Sync and so on. The thing is we want to make sure that if we do move onto a layer two, We don't just move by ourselves. We don't want to just be able to do swaps if we move somewhere.

We want to bring with us, you know, like a money market. Is it going to be cream, avi? Is it going to be like other options? Like this is all in the talks. I think that if we were to move with five participants from the urine ecosystem at the same time, this would be we're more interesting than just by ourselves because then the users are not constrained to just like doing swaps. But then we also, we don't want to forget about like compassability.

I think this is one of the most crucial aspect of DFI is that we want to make sure that people are not locked, I would say, or they cannot, you know, do what is fun with all these protocols and corroborating. So once this is cleared out, then, you know, we're going to be announcing what we do for the layers. two-part, scalability. And I do think this is like something that is six-month-away, my opinion. So, Maki, do you have any guesses on how this will play out? Because there is an element to what you're talking about with the move to layer two, or even you were talking about kind of

a multi-chain world. There is some loss of composability. There is some like liquidity silos that start to form. So how is this all going to play out in your mind? Do you have any scenarios you can paint for us? I mean, from what I saw, like, this siloing. of assets and so on, like between optimism, optimistic, sorry, and other layer two are going to be kind of not too impacted by that. I've seen like Connects network has been working on bridging layer twos together. I do think that we're going to see more and more of this sort of initiative because if like, you know, the assets are trapped there or frozen there, there's going to be massive gains for people that are able to bridge them.

So I don't think it's going to happen, or maybe just at the beginning, and then we're going to find solutions. But aside from that, you know, I think, like I'm not especially a supplier to personally, so I won't like pronounce myself to heavily on this topic. But I just very happy to see the innovation that's going to bring to the table.

On the side of, you know, the user experience are going to be, totally different. I think we're not going to have to care about gas anymore. And this was, I think, the missing piece for Ethereum to another competitor. Everyone was kind of screaming scalability and how cheap their transaction were on other chains.

This is kind of going to kill this notion of not being. And this is when other blockchains, if they really have like a community or like a soul, that's where they're going to create their own interesting feature because otherwise everyone is going to move to Ethereum. Yeah, so what do you think about that? So you mentioned earlier that part of what sushi is doing is actually like branching out or playing with other chains too, like you mentioned the Pocodot ecosystem, for example.

How do you think that plays out with Ethereum? Are there like, are the ETH killers going to kill ETH? Will they carve out a different niche in the ecosystem? Will they all compete? Will they all be one big happy family? what's your take on this? I think they're just going to be doing their own things. Like similar to what Sushi Swap is doing with this all like Uni VS.

I think they're just going to be building their own kind of solutions on like DFI or blocks and so on and so on. If they don't, then it's just going to die. Simply put. And you cannot just take whatever is happening on Ethereum and just mirror it somewhere else. And then I assume that people are just going to move. That's not how it works. They need to invent their own, like, groundbreaking things, I think. And on Polkod, I'm kind of fairly certain that some innovation is going to be. In crypto and blockchain, et cetera, it's always the people. We don't have, like, a million dev yet.

And if you don't have, like, a strong community of developers, of community advocates and so on, then it's worthless. Okay, so you mentioned, you mentioned Pocod. Are there any other ecosystems that you are impressed with as kind of layer one ecosystems? I haven't looked at all of them personally. So I would say all I'm missing right now is Binan smart chain. Atom I haven't looked it up. There is, I mean, all the ghost chain, I don't care. So I'm not interested in the rest.

I would say these two are kind of the main ones. And what is very important with us, it's something with a bridge. If we cannot have a bridge back to Ethereum, then we don't care, basically. Got it. All right. So Ethereum possibly has sort of a settlement layer, certainly a central hub to all of this innovation, but other chains possibly playing a role as well. Can you talk a bit more about the sushi swap roadmap?

You've got a V2 coming up. You mentioned something called bento box. earlier. Tell us what's in store for the next releases of sushi swap. So what is very interesting is right now we're like finishing up the formal verification for bentel box. This is going to be huge, I think. It's going to be our kind of margin solution on top of sushi. So we are going to be enabling long and short leverage basically on any single pair that is on sushi. And this is going to be, you know, we're going to be partnering with a lot of participants to make sure that this is a very popular product, I would say, in a way where the iron bank can be instrumental

there. We can add like strategies with yarn and so on. This is going to be, in my opinion, like the next step in sushi swap. And then the AMMV2 is going to be very interesting because this is when we're going to be able to unlock more flexibility. And we're talking about the percomposition, the fee structure for pools, We want to, like one of the key things of the Marin update, I think, is going to be the franchise pool aspect, where we are trying to make sure that, like, I would say, C-5 can happen, but in a way where they are connected with us. So they will be able, in theory, for Binance user to, let's say, provide liquidity on sushi swap, like with a franchise pool.

If finance is interested and so on, right? This is the goal. Like exchange are going to be able to set their own fee and then provide, I guess, the abstraction for the user to not even, you know, play with metamask and so on. I personally, I prefer the fact that people have ownership of their assets and everything and are self-sovereign. Yeah. But this is not for everyone. Like I cannot get my dad and mom to buy sushi on sushi swap at the moment. they won't be able to understand all of this dimension, and they just want like a very

similar experience to like, I guess, their bank account. Yeah, they want the, they want the training wheels on, right? And like, look, all of us started on an exchange. Our first step was to get Fiat into crypto, so we all started on an exchange. What you're talking about sounds similar to something David and I talk about often, which is the protocol sync thesis, which is the idea as well that many of these exchanges will start using defy protocols as build on top of them essentially use defy protocols as as their base layer. But how hard or easy is it for a centralized exchange like a Binance, for example, to tap into

the liquidity in sushi swap right now? Is it, can they, can they do it without your permission? Yeah, they could do it without their permission. But I do think that they want, you know, some assistance. They want a white glove experience. They want like developers that can support support them in their efforts. They want to make sure everything is secure. There's all this compliance aspect also to keep in mind all the time and so on that we are trying to mitigate in a way, right? Want to make sure there is no issues with this on this front.

I mean, Defi, as you may know, is very prone to attacks and so on, exploits. So there's always risk. There's also like this part where, you know, IL impermanent loss is real. And we wouldn't want, you know, user to use their assets or, you know, like incur losses if you are narrating a very interesting API and so on. That's why we saw, you know, ex-sushi happening on centralized exchange more and more because it is pretty much, quote-unquote, without any risk of downsides. Right. Downsides. Right.

So this is kind of the approach, I would say. and yeah, that's one part of the whole roadmap. I mean, I could go on, like, I've written like a very extensive medium article about it. But, yeah. Well, we will link that medium article in the show notes, Maki. One other thing you mentioned when you were going over the high level there is something called the Iron Bank. Sounds super cool. What is the Iron Bank?

So the Iron Bank is going to be part of the new update. from cream, like the upgrade from cream. It's going to be a way for protocol to leverage liquidity without any collateral. So that means if you are in need of massive amount of tokens or else, you can just borrow it without any guarantees on the other side, right? You don't need to show that you will use the fun in a good way. So this is the idea of credit. It's without collateral, without a a collateralized loan. This is a credit-based type of loan. How are they able to do that? I mean, I would love for you to have Leo perhaps on the show and explaining all of this from top to bottom. It is like very interesting. And since, you know, Andrew shared the post about it

and the cream team, it was kind of mind-blowing because this is going to be enabling. It's all a different, you know, I would say not primitive, but different way of thinking. about equity and so on. You are not just bounded by what I guess the people are providing to your smart contract. So this enables things like a hundred X leverage for example or things like that. Wow. We're definitely going to have to dig into that a bit more on bankless. Can we talk about a bit more about your future roadmap compared to Uniswap? So Uniswap is launching their V3 sometime soon. There's a lot of lot of hype, don't know exactly what's going to be in that V3. It seems like Sushi Swap is kind of,

it started as a fork of Uniswap, but now it's going its own direction. Are you going to fork Utiswap V3 at all or take any of their ideas or are, is Sushi Swap basically, it's on its own trajectory now? I mean, we're very open to pretty much everything that is going on in the space. and if UNICEF was to evolve into or innovate in a way that is groundbreaking, I don't see why everyone in the custom wouldn't kind of get inspired. But for us, I think we're past this forking phase. That was essential in, I guess, bootstrapping the treasury,

bootstraping the community, the product. But now we're kind of, we are well funded. We were able to, you know, in the treasury at the moment, as we speak, we have more. than $100 million. With all of this being controlled by the community, we're able to pretty much do, to build anything that we wish.

We have built an amazing team, I think, on the technical front. We still need to hire many people on the moral ops, design, and so on. And we're kind of sitting up with self for blazing our own path, basically not forking their code, like just making sure we've shared our own roadmap. We're working with very different approach. Jeff, a friend that I've spoken with very recently told us that, you know, sushi is similar to a bazaar and Uniswap is a cathedral where they're not sharing anything that they're working on. I don't know if it's by fear or if it's because they're worried that it is too massive. I don't know.

Maybe it's not ready yet. We have absolutely no pointers. And this is what is interrating, I guess, with Uniswold. is that even if you wanted to help, you are kind of let for let down, right? You cannot help in any single way. On sushi swap mindset, we're more like, all right, we are not pretending to be the most knowledgeable people in the world. Everyone is welcome to join.

Everyone will be paid extremely generously to help out. And there is absolutely no barrier to entry. Anyone that wants to get involved will be involved. There's no resume at sushi swap. It's all based on your output, meritocracy and so on. So that's pretty much it. That's fascinating. That also may be a reaction to the advance of sushi swap.

It seems like they might be doing, keeping things under wrap for competitive reasons. One other thing before we conclude kind of talking about the roadmap is we mentioned this, I don't know, the feature or a product. that you're calling bento box. What is that? It's just leverage, basically, on every single pair of sushi swap. You will be able to deposit your assets and basically earn API on top while people are borrowing it and going for leverage position to 3X. It's going to be enabled with flash loans inside and so on.

Boring crypto has been the architect behind it. There is like a lot of development on this side. And I think if one wanted to learn more, you could always read the bentel box plus medium article. I can probably link it to you in the show notes. It's going to be a way for people to, if you have like a quote unquote gem, you will be able to long it. You will be able to short it. There will be no assets that are not possible to basically to leverage. And what is very interesting with this aspect or this approach.

is that we're not going to be optimizing for TVL on pairs. So we're not going after the compound Ave cream of this world. We're really optimizing for usage. We are making sure that the APII are going to be eye for people that are in need of, I guess, a very specific asset. And that's why the elastic rate kicks in.

It's going to be very fast. It's going to be way different than Ave and compound and this sort of things. We're talking about like an ideal API of 80% on pairs. 90% goes to the people putting the assets to work. 10% goes to XSushi holders. And then whenever there's like a liquidation happening, the first 2% of the asset can be flashed loan

and the profit is gonna be paid directly to XWChi holder before it is our bots that can access it. So this way we're making sure that the system is benefiting the whole ecosystem of sushi swap. And we're also giving the liberty or freedom, the freedom, for people to create new pairs whenever they want. So they can pick the Oracle, they can pick the risk parameters. It's all isolated risk. So if a pair fail, it's not going to affect the broader system of the bento product. So this is kind of, I guess, it's very difficult to wrap your mind around.

But once you've read, I guess, the medium article and the documentation, you just simply get it. And what is very cool about it is it's not just a product. It's also, it's an infrastructure layer too. So you can build on top of the bento box with assets being available without, you know, approve transaction and so on. you have like a very capital efficient base layer to build on top. So we're probably going to see quote unquote the AMM built on this on top of this. Who knows?

Maybe we're going to see other products. This is kind of bento for you. Yeah. So the assets that people have deposited into the sushi AMM, are these the same assets that people are able to borrow as well from the bento box app? Or are these totally separate products? Are these just two different things? Different product, yeah.

But there's going to be more intertwining, I guess, in 2021 once it is lunch. We're probably going to have way more builder, and we're going to have incentives probably and grants for people to experiment with it because I do think it's going to be instrumental in our future and in a way to differentiate ourselves than Uniswark. So this actually starts to feel like a little bit something more like a doubt. right? Like this is something that I think or behavior that we're seeing coming out of a where Yam built the umbrella protocol, which really has, it's arbitrary, has nothing to really do with a Yam token except for that people behind the Yam token built the product.

Is this kind of the same thing where like the bento box, it doesn't actually have anything to do with sushi swab the AMM, but it's under the sushi umbrella? What is that, what's the takeaway message there? Should we expect more products that are differentiated from other sushi products that are still under the sushi umbrella. Exactly. I mean, you're nailing it down. It's like a doubt. It's an open org.

Everything can happen in the sushi ecosystem. You're a chef if the idea is well received by the community. And we're just going to be giving you funding and get to it. And we want to enable passionate people to join us and build what they're passionate about. It's about what you love. And to be honest, like if there's one contribution to sushi, that the impact we had with sushi swap was to make sure that incentives are more broadly distributed from now on, the fact that we can onboard like full-time people that were not necessarily working in crypto,

full-time, this is wonderful, in my opinion. It's all about making sure that the ecosystem grow. And by doing so, not only are you helpful. the sushi ecosystem, but the broader community. And then we're just getting closer to a bankless future and the future where, you know, we are building the friends, you know, the future of friends, basically. Mackey, how much volume do you guys have these days?

To be fair with you, I don't look at the volume every single day. I think it's half a billion a week, plus or minus. I think it's a little bit more than this. Let's let's call a half a billion. into a billion a week. I just, like, as you're talking, Macia, I'm just like, just want to pause and reflect it, how strange this is and how revolutionary this is, right?

So here is a DFI protocol built by a team of pseudononymous individuals that was originally built as a fork of another protocol. And you have right now 100 million in your treasury to continue through a Dow to deploy to build out the product. You've got volume between 500 million to a billion a week. You are continuing to iterate and build like a revolutionary defy primitive. Like for someone thinking about traditional startups, right, even somebody who's on the cutting edge traditional startups in Silicon Valley, right?

This sounds crazy. This sounds bizarre. Like, this is not the way the traditional world works. If you wanted to build a financial, like a bank banking system or a financial primitive in the traditional world, it would take regulation, it would take licenses, it would take VC checks, it would take startup funding, it would take an established headquarters location, it would take press releases and partnerships. This is what we're doing here in Defi is so strange compared to.

how the traditional world does that. I was just struck by that as you guys were talking. I don't know if you have any follow-up comments to that, Mackey, but this is truly a different type of thing that's happening in Defi. Yeah, just to give you maybe more numbers metrics behind what you just said. For the week, the past week, we were, we did in volume around $2 billion, just on sushi swap. It was like half a billion a day, not a week. That was my mistake there.

Yeah, no problem. This is, I mean, who could have thought that we would be here six months ago? No one, I think. But this is just a testament to how you can build anything and pretty much gain traction by just perseverance. And making sure that you have like a community that is not only enabled and working and, you know, growing the pie for you. It's and it's not, you know, this is kind of crazy, but it's not benefiting me, myself, you know, individually, but everyone that is part of it. And I think that is what is very important. We are enabling people to swap assets from anywhere in the world.

There's no, like, front end bypass or whatever it is. Ethereum is really, like, in my opinion, the next step in enabling, I guess, the future of finance and, I guess the world is not even ready for when we can have or eat wallet on our iPhone or Android or whatever and pay on square terminal and so on. This is just the rails of the future. And Dow's an open org. We don't have like, I guess, the blueprint yet to build them. You can see recently, I'm pretty sure some people in the year an ecosystem are listening.

We're going to see a minting possibly voting on the minting to make sure that, you know, our contributors are a sense of incentive of us. in a decent way and to bring, you know, treasury to their community. So everything is kind of still moving and we're assembling the rocket as we fly kind of type of type of situation. So I do think that the future that is coming is not even, this is just the start. Like what we're seeing here is just the start. We don't even have all of the innovation.

We have like some exotic perps, exotic option, derivative and so on that are coming. the finance layer on the theorem is something, but I don't know if you've seen all the NFTs action happening to the way that they're becoming more liquid. This is very interesting on all the fronts, I guess. And this is why I cannot just think that any other layer can, I guess, remove Ethereum of it. There's just too much happening.

There's too much life. Mackey, you've used the word, capital efficiency or the phrase capital efficiency a number of times so far in this show. And I know that Andre from urine is really big on the concept of capital efficiency. And so since you guys are closed to that project, it seems to make sense that sushi is focused on capital efficiency as well. Maybe you could talk about your philosophy about capital efficiency and design in sushi swap products that have, that make capital more efficient.

Maybe you could talk about that. So for example, like very, very quickly because I know we're running out of time a little bit, but capital efficiency is that you can deposit your assets, for example, in a yearn vault or in a bento box, kind of pool or something like this. And you don't need to move it to yourself. You don't need to pay a huge amount to move all of this similar to you've probably, have you ever, switch capital from compound to Ave? Yeah, manually.

Yeah, manually. Like it's kind of a, it can be an asshole sometimes. I know there's like some tools with flash loans now, but before that it was very tedious, I would say a tedious process. With bento, like you can just like, you don't even need to approve like other contracts to kind of move all of these assets and so on. And it's just to make sure things are less cost.

they cost less to you and transaction and so on. It's really about this. And also that you get the most out of your assets. So for example, if you are an LP, you want to deposit them and maybe a solution that is going to provide you impermanent loss without you needing to move everything. We're also like we're thinking about strategies on top of bento to make sure that, you know, assets of people are all working for them

while they are sitting there being landed. So it's all of this notion that when we're talking about capital efficiency. Maki, we want to close this maybe by talking about the future of DFI in general. So we've talked about so many things. I'm sure you were in a place now. You didn't think you would be a year ago at this time. Right. So at some level, it's hard to predict the future.

That said, you are on kind of the frontier, as we would call it on bankless, of this whole Defi experiment. And you're talking to many different projects. What do you see ahead for us in Defi right now? What projects are you excited about, either things inside sushi or in Defi in general, that we should also be looking into? To be honest, I think what is going to be very interesting to see evolve and so on, besides scalability and so on. It's all the fact that this project can be started now without any sort of

funding, I would say, or they can't they don't like there is no gatekeeper anymore, right? So, which means if there's no gatekeeper, all the innovation can happen and be funded by the community and I guess the early adopters, meaning that we're going to be seeing people that are able to support themselves and launch whatever they please, whatever they're passionate about. Is this going to be, whether it is derivative, whether it is related to identity, whether it is related to NFT, we're going to be seeing more innovation than we can even concede at this point that we can absorb in our mind. I think we're going to, like, you know, who would have predicted all of this liquidity mining phase? And this is just one thing, right? This is just to bootstrap, like, liquidity and so on.

It's not perfect for everything. But I do think that we're going to be seeing other, not just primitives, but incentives in a way. Are they going to be, I think like one of the, the one I want to be seeing myself and we're going to be working on at sushi is enabling developers to be quote unquote paid or like having more revenue streams from helping protocols. So they don't need to ask permission for a grant.

need to go by a tedious process or else, they just can build with Legos that are provided and be incentivized for doing so. I think once we can make sure that builders are incentivized in a remarkable way, I think we're going to see so much innovation from them that you know, the human are very creative individuals and anonymous is probably, the anonymous this kind of persona and so on are going to keep going and being more mainstream, I do think. And at some point, you know, it's just not going to be our own little bubble that we are in, that, you know, crypto is for power a user and crypto native and so on. We're probably going to be seeing people in all part of the world being able to accept

crypto for the first time. You know, the people news that happened. people forgot already about it, but it's happening. And they're going to be opening in many countries very soon, meaning that we are going to be able to be first-cast citizen with crypto. And once this shift happens, anything is possible at that point. Mackey, I want to thank you for coming on the bankless state of the nation. I think there's a lot of really powerful takeaways that we can get from this conversation and from what sushi swap has taught the ecosystem.

I think one of the biggest things that it's taught me and showed the rest of the listeners is that, well, first off, sushi has a massive treasury that could be somebody's paycheck. And that is not just for sushi swap. That's also true for yam. That's also true for yearn. A lot of these DFI protocols have treasuries that are, they're ready to pay out to people that provide value to the ecosystem. That was something that I was, person, when I was getting into the space of crypto in 2017, there wasn't very much. any opportunities to contribute. If you didn't know how to code, if you didn't know how to write solidity, you kind of had to sit and watch while the coders did the coding stuff. But with with Yam, with sushi, with Wyern, there's a lot of community management. There's branding, writing, marketing. And I think it's an open invitation to anyone listening or watching this on the YouTube, that there are protocols that are looking for your human capital, your labor. And sushi swap is is kind of pioneering that along with their own path through defy, just kind of being exemplar models of what open source software development can really

look like in a world powered by Ethereum. I think this is a fantastic story that I personally will be watching with great interest. So Mackie, thank you for coming on and helping tell that story to the Bankless Nation. Pleasure. Thank you for having me David and Ryan. It was like I never expected to be on this show, to be honest with you. I remember vividly when all of the, not maxi, but all the fervent influencer of Ethereum,

I would say, were very against sushi swel, but we proved herself to be actual pillar of the ecosystem, I think. And we will keep going so, we'll keep doing so, and be there for helping any project to launch, to exchange on our platform and so on, and provide collaboration. because this is key in this ecosystem.

Well said, there are no gatekeepers in the bankless economy, Mackey. Thank you very much for joining us. Guys, David and I work for a protocol. It sounds like there are tons of opportunities for you to work for a protocol too. Perhaps your kids will work for protocols, not companies. Really fascinating discussion here with Mackey. Of course, risks and disclaimers, ETH is risky, defyyy is risky. DeFi is risky.

so is all of crypto. This is really the frontier. We're headed west. It's not for everyone, but thanks for joining us on bankless today.