Bankless - StarkWare Sessions #5 | Starknet Identity with Hadrien of Sismo

Episode Date: February 11, 2023

Sometimes, the frontier is at a crypto conference. We’re returning from our adventures in Tel Aviv with nine exclusive interviews with some of the key players in the StarkNet space.  Wish you could make it to all the crypto conferences, but don't have the time? Don't worry, Bankless brings the frontier to you. In this episode, we’re talking to Hadrien from Sismo, the identity tooling set to help express your identity across all your addresses. Digital identity is more than one wallet—we need tools like Sismo to help maximal expression. ------ 📣 MetaMask Learn  https://bankless.cc/metamaskshow  ------ 🚀 JOIN THE NATION:  https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/subscribe  ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS:  🐙KRAKEN | MOST-TRUSTED CRYPTO EXCHANGE https://bankless.cc/kraken  🦄UNISWAP | ON-CHAIN MARKETPLACE https://bankless.cc/uniswap  ⚖️ ARBITRUM | SCALING ETHEREUM https://bankless.cc/Arbitrum  🚁 EARNIFI | CLAIM YOUR UNCLAIMED AIRDROPS https://bankless.cc/earnifi   👻 PHANTOM | CROSS-CHAIN WALLET https://bankless.cc/phantom  ------ Timestamps: 0:00 Intro 3:45 Sismo 5:30 Getting Starked 8:00 Digital Identity 12:00 Data Vaults 15:09 Sharing with Friends 18:00 Soulbound Tokens 20:30 Web3 Social 21:40 Get Involved  22:30 Conference Experiences ----- Resources:  Hadrien Charlanes https://twitter.com/dhadrien_  Sismo https://www.sismo.io/  StarkNet https://starkware.co/starknet/  ----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures 

Welcome to Bankless, where we explore the frontier of internet money and internet finance. And sometimes that frontier is at a conference. Like last weekend, where over 1,000 developers, founders, builders, and investors attended the Starkware sessions in Tel Aviv in order to participate in growing the Starknet ecosystem. This is Bankless's Starkware Session series, which are nine byte-size episodes interviewing the founders, builders, and ecosystem developers of Starknet. Every once in a while in the crypto world, a conference happens, but, not everyone is available to attend. Don't worry. Bankless has your back because I go to basically

every conference that's out on the frontier and I bring an entire podcast studio in tow with me in order to make sure that the Bankless Nation stays on the frontier of what's happening in crypto. In this interview, we are talking to Sizmo. And Sysmo is an identity tooling set to help express your identity across all of your Ethereum addresses. Sizmo lets you connect all of your Ethereum addresses, whether you have your board apes in one address, your Cryptopunks, and another address or your governance tokens and a third address. Sizmo lets you prove what you have in your wallet or what you've done in your wallet to some sort of third party, some sort of web app, anything that's trying to access your identity, but it lets you keep yourself private in the process.

So say, for example, you are trying to get into this party that is token gated by board apes, but you don't want to docks your address to that website. Sizmo allows you to do a ZK proof of the state of your address to prove to anyone about the credentials that you might have in that wallet without having to dox your wallets. And it's also useful for combining all of your identities across all of your wallets that you may use so that you can express all of the access that you have across all of your wallets all at once without having to dox these things together. The use cases for this are endless. And so we go into all of these details and more in this interview with Cizmo. But first, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible.

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We are on day two, and I have completely lost my voice, talking to everyone here over in Tel Aviv, Israel. Today and right now we're talking with Adrian from the SISMO team. Adrian, welcome. Yeah, thanks. Thanks. It's going to be great. Yeah. How's your conference going so far? How's Day 2? It's going really great. Yeah, a lot of cool stuff are happening. A lot of ZK people, so for a team like us that are doing ZK, it's always great, yeah.

So we're of course going to talk about Sismo, and I want to see if you can explain SISMO in a sentence, but then we're going to talk about Starknet, and then we'll go back to SISMO. Yeah, so SISMO, you're going to talk about SISMO. uses ZK-proof so that you can selectively reveal stuff from your wallet. So let's say that you have a big wallet with many, many data. We're using ZK-proof so that you can just take a piece of it and we tokenize it as a SBT. So let's say that you have a wallet with many NFTs, DFI, stuff, like that.

You can just pick one data, one NFT, and you get a sole bond token on another address that is virgin, that is empty, that just proved that you own this NFT. So by doing this, you have chosen a piece of data, you can use this new address to connect on applications and to, yeah, just bring the data you want, basically. And this is, of course, an identity conversation to help express who we are, but also keep ourselves private, right?

Exactly, yeah. It comes from the fact that having that in real life, you always choose, depending on the context, what you bring to the, what part of your identity you bring. So, like, co-workers party, you don't bring the same identity that's in your co-working space, right? And so it's a bit similar with Cisco. What we're trying to do is that from your sovereign data, from your wallet or even other web-to-accounts, you can exactly choose what you want to reveal when connecting to an app.

Okay, so I want to ask you about how you ended up overall in the Starknet ecosystem. How did you get started? Was it with the StarkX or StarkNet? Like, how did you get started? And why did you pick the Starknet ecosystem? Yes, so I think that, so just to be 100% clear, we're not yet deployed there. we want to, just to give instance of what Sismo is, like, users in their front end, they generate ZK proofs.

Like that I have a certain NFT. And then we need to verify it. And Sysmo allows you to verify it on chain, on Ethereum, on EVM, on EVM chains, but also off-chain. Like a server can just check the proof. And we plan to deploy on Sarknet to verify in Kero. So we're not live yet, but I'm a good friend with a lot of people that have, I've been in the Zika space for quite some time.

I was working with AVE and we worked with them on bringing AVE to there. So yeah, like, not of friends in common, but not yet like fully deployed there. Is there something specific about Starkness technology that is conducive to what you're working on in SISMO or can you also do this on, well, I'm assuming you could do this on layer one, but that would probably be really expensive. What about other layer two's and then why did you overall pick Starknet? Yeah, so I guess that Sysmo is a bit like we're not defined by blockchain. What we do is a bit of chain.

We generate proofs and you can verify it anywhere. So any blockchain can be a substrate. For now we are mainly on EVMs. So we are on main net, polygon, agnosis. We'll soon be on other chains like optimisms and like layer 2s and slacknet. So we are really chain agnostic, basically. So you actually don't need block space, do you? You don't need to consume block space to produce a proof?

Exactly. Ah, okay. We make it available on-chain for two reasons, first, so that smart construct can use it. Right. And the other thing that is important, I think, is like the SBT parts, is that it's the standard that is well used even by off-chain applications. So by putting it out-chain, it makes it the proof, the attestations, is usable by like snapshot, guild, like all the tools that are token gauges, basically.

Sure. Okay. How did you come up with the name Sismo? Actually, it comes from the fact that, you know, seismology, it's like signal science. And so our goal is like from all the noise that you have on your wallet, you pick one and you reveal just this one. Okay. So let's talk about how this is conducive to identity. And I watch you give a talk this morning, and you of course use the example. And this is a frequent example used in the Web3 world of you get to pick and choose parts of your identity in the moment that they are relevant to the context that we want to talk about. Can you elaborate on this and then talk about how Sismo enables this? Yeah, yeah. So again, our thesis is that there's going to be more and more sovereign data that you own on the ID, on your wallet.

And then now that you own your social capital, that's not the case in Web 2. too, like your data is on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, and they don't let you do anything with it. It's impossible to create an event when you invite your Facebook and Twitter and LinkedIn friends because they are so competitive on their data. It's not yours. It won't be shared, like Twitter API is now payable.

So, okay, so now that you have, like, now that you have several wallets, several identities, your profile, your DAO identity, your private wallet, your ENS, now it's yours. You can leverage it together. But let's say that you want to prove your total amount of eth. Let's say that you have three wallets with 500 eith. You're lucky, then you'll luck if you have that.

But imagine that. You can dream. You could potentially prove that you have more than 1,000 ether without creating any link between your wallet. So that's where Sysmo comes in. It's like, for now we allow you to granularly reveal part of your wallet per wallet. And soon we'll do also this on an aggregated version, meaning that you import in SysmoVolt, like all your wallets,

for now you can now start generating ZK proof from any of them, and soon you'll be able to prove anything from the aggregated data that you have on all your wallets without creating links with them. So the users is the only one that has the aggregated view, and the user can bring exactly what they need or wants to the app. Okay, and so one important nuance that I want to pull out here, Like say I have three wallets, I've got my NFT wallet, and personally my NFT wallet is also David Hoffman. .eath.

And so it's also where I have my ENS name, and this is my public wallet. It's my flex wallet, you know? I also have my defy wallet. Don't look at that one. Like that's mine. And then maybe there's like another wallet out there. That's my gaming wallet or something. And so the idea is that you can use SISMO to take all the properties you want from any wallet,

and the point is to not be able to link them together so I can express, you can use, you know, what I want from each of these wallets. But the important point I want to drive is that maybe there's an app that is asking you about some data that you want to provide, but you don't want to link these wallets together. You also don't need to link any wallet to that app, right? Because you don't need to, the app isn't asking for your wallet, it's just asking for perhaps a proof.

So it's not only about not linking the wallets together, it's also not about showing the wallet in the first place, right? Definitely, yeah, that's exactly this. Like, what we do allowed to do is the app will We'll, yeah, we're trying to fight against the sign-in with Ethereum version one. We love it, of course. Like, you can connect with your, as you said, you're in-S wallet. It's a signal wallet.

Everything that is here is public, so you can share it. You know that it's here. But now, let's say that you want to leverage your social capital from your private wallet. You don't want to share it. So, yeah, we'll have this ProveCysmo button, basically, that you can embed in any app. And it's a sort of competitor, but not really to sign in with Ethereum. But basically by clicking this button, it's redirect to Sismo where you generate your ZK proof, and then you back to the app, and the app just knows, okay, you have a board ape or you have anything.

So, yeah, that's... So you said not could be competitive with Signing with Ethereum, but also could not be. We recently did a podcast with Dwayne from Signing with Ethereum, and we talked about these things called DataValtz. Couldn't a Sysmo ZK proof be something that goes into the sign-in with Ethereum data vault, as in like you can create that proof and then have that available to you? Exactly. That's what,

first we're not competitors because we can just enhance signing with Ethereum apps. Let's say you connect to, I know like Philand. You know Pheland? Yeah. They are doing like from your history.

You have a city or stuff like that. And so you already logged in with your wallet, your public wallet. But what if you want to import data from your private wallet? You could use this more from it. So it's not competitor. Like you can just use it to boost.

Like just you bring the data that you want. Right. I was actually in the file in Phelan Discord saying like, hey, I just logged in with Ethereum to do my stuff. But you guys should use ZK Proofs to do this. I was in the Discord. So like telling them, and then of course, this is exactly what you're doing. Yeah, that's our goal. And generally, like, I think what thing that is interesting is, let's say that you want to create a newsletter for Ethereum Stakers. And you want to verify that they are all Ethereum Stakers. you don't want their address. Of course you don't want it. So this, it would be a very simple app.

You will just have a proof of Sysmoy, you'll read it with Sysmo, you'll prove that you are staker, then you get access to the email news later. We also did something, I don't know if you've seen this, but with the foundation, the merger pass. It's an NFT that gives access to conferences. And basically,

having the foundation computed the list of the 130 contributors to the merge. And to get the NFT, instead of just, you know, there's a white list, and instead of just giving the wallet to get the NFT, they used SISMO to generate a ZK proof that they were part of the white list without really... So this was the ZK drop.

First app that uses this proof of Sysmo flow. So is there a conversation to be had here about websites or companies or projects collecting user data? Because perhaps with their GDPR requirements, they don't want to have... you don't want to be receiving too much data that you don't need. And so maybe, like, from the user perspective,

I might only want to give you a ZK proof to protect my privacy. But from the company perspective, I might only want to receive certain data because I don't want the rest of that data. Is there a conversation here as well? Yeah, exactly. So first, like, I think, like, companies like ledger, they don't want the addresses,

but they want to do some loyalty programs. So it's outside of GDPR. But now we've been talking with Ariani. It's a project that does, that lets big brands like LVMH like Louis Vuitton stuff like that to tokenize their bags and they want to tokenize the bags so that they can have a relationship with their customers

but GDPR and so they need a privacy layer they need to be able not to be they need to not be able to track their users so they're talking with us and Cizmo could be like a GDPR compliance layer for this loyalty programs or supply chain stop. Okay, so question for you. Say there's a part of you that you need a board ape to get into and I don't have a board ape. Can I go to my friend who does have a board ape and I can get him to make a ZK proof of his board ape and then sell it to me? And then would that work?

No, no, basically no, but just wanting to be sure to have the right answer. So the way it was that you would create a SBT of your board ap ownership. First, in our current process, you need to prove ownership of both the source that is eligible, the owner of the board ape and the destination. So, okay? So that's, if you need, if you want him to create the DK proof, you need to give him also the private address or your real address,

so that won't work. And then we have a nice property on our SBTs. They are actually more account bound, meaning that you are SBT older, if you will lose the address or if you sell it to someone, you always have the opportunity by re-creating a ZK proof of ownership of the source to burn any means. So it doesn't see, it won't,

I'm sure you can find a way to give your private address to a friend, but you won't be able to create a market of it because there's always the incentive I can get it back. Okay, so just to check my understanding, I can make a ZK proof of an NFT that I have and I can give that to a friend but that friend doesn't have any assurances that I didn't do that again and again and again

and like kind of ruin the marketplace. Yeah, so I wasn't precise enough. The ZK proof is like first you have the NFT and then you own the destination address that will have the SBT. Okay. So you need to have like to generally the ZK proof you need to have both address at the same time.

So your friends address and yours. So you won't give your private key to your friends. Ah, okay. So the only thing you can do is mint on a destination of yours, then give the private key to your friend. Sure. And then you always have the opportunity

to burn any means. Okay. So, yeah. Okay, so I can make a ZK proof of my NFT, and I have to also use a private key of a destination address for where the sole-bound token goes,

but I can give that to my friend. And then, but then, again, the friend doesn't really have any assurances that I don't do this multiple times. Okay. Yeah, exactly. But I could still get into the party, though, because I can still give it to my friend.

Yeah, that's, That's the version that we released today, but tomorrow, like as soon as... So we have this big thing at ETC, like the conference in Paris, we have this masquerade, it's a privacy preserving party, and so to get in, it's going to be this. But then what's great is that you won't be able... The ZK proof will be off-chain, it will be on a one-time thing. So when you present to the events, you'll need to create the ZK proof on your mobile app, Prove directly that you have the punk and then you access.

Like it's ongoing, you cannot, unless you share your wallet to your friends, you won't be able to do that. Sure. Okay, we talked about, so the solebound token goes in the destination address. I think we might have skipped over that part of the conversation. Can you talk about the role of the soulbound token in the Sismo ecosystem? Yeah, so, so let's start again with DK proof. So I do as you keep proof that I have an eligible account for a specific batch. I'm part of the group of a Right. You're in the club.

Yeah, I'm in the club. I have a board ape. I'm part of it. I create a ZK proof. Then from ZZK proof, we can use it or off-chain, like an off-chain can just check it.

No SBT involved. Or we send ZK proof on-chain to what we call a Z-K tester. It's a smart contract that verify use ZK-proof. It's valid. So it checks you have an eligible source. It checks also that you own the destination.

So it's verified this ZK proof, and then it means the SBT on your destination. And third, it stores what we call a nullifier, is the fact that to make sure that you won't be able to use the same source twice to get two badges. So one source, one batch. So when you come to the roadmap of Sismo, how does this get started? What is the first sort of ZK proofs that you guys generate?

Like, how does this play out in the future? Yeah, so today we have these SBTs, They are starting to be used to gate some, like, I think of ZKPay, that is a project on Aztec that gates their community to people that have been using Aztec. There are also a lot of personal tokens. Like in the Sismo Factory, factory.cestry.sysmo.com. You can easily create a Ziki badge, like click-click, like no-code UI,

a Ziki badge for all your lens followers, for instance. So we have this. I think it's great, but, I mean, it is great. But we're trying to aim wider, meaning we want to really help application developers to gate their services to specific users without getting their wallets. That's what we were saying about. So we'll go to the market with the Pruvis Cismo button that is easy to integrate. Basically, step one, you choose your gate. Like, I want to gate a service to my lens followers or people that follow Vitalik or I don't know.

then you get all the, you get the button to integrate in your front end, and then all the Soliti library, if you wanted to be a SBT, or an off-chain package to verify the ZK proof. Anyway. So for the listeners that are listening right now, we have a lot of lens users and farcasters users in the Bakelis Nation. Is that probably where they might run into Sismo first? Exactly, yeah, yeah.

That's like. Yeah, we, yeah, farcasters, lens, they are actors within the system ecosystem on two sides. First, they are sovereign graphs, right? So you can prove stuff from your farcaster. I can prove that I follow you on firecaster. I can prove that I follow you on end. And then they can integrate Sismo to do specific stuff. Like follow me only if you prove me that you are part of the proof of humanity registry. And so on the two sides, I think like we're building infrastructure for these kind of people. That's our focus.

We want to onboard civil-resistant teams that build these groups. Anyway, yeah, we're building for them. Very, very cool. If people want to start experimenting or just read more about SISMO, where should they go? Yeah, we're trying to keep the dock updated like a lot.

So it's always an iteration process. So go to docs.s.sysmo.com. And create your first DK badge on factory.sysmo.com. It's a very simple app. You choose your group of eligible accounts from like you can say like my snapshot voters, people that follow me on your lens, like you can use yeah many things you see like subgraph like many things. So you can create your ZK badge, you choose the metadata and it's live.

So that's the things that you can do today and keep updated like within the next two months we'll release like this dev tooling, the provisci-mo button that will be so exciting I think. Because I'm looking forward to it. What's the website and any other social media is that you want people to follow? So it's Sismo underscore ETH, that's the Twitter. That's the main landing with the docs. Like the website is, yeah, the docs is our main landing, I would say.

Dux.s.como.combe. Awesome. Adrian, for the rest of your time here in Tel Aviv and at the StarCware sessions, what's exciting to you, what talks have you liked, what have you enjoyed, whoever have you talked to, anything that stand out to you so far? Yeah, so it was actually one of my first StarcNet conferences. And I met so many people. working on ZK stocks. I'm more like a ZK snark guy. So like a I don't know what that means, but I love it. Yeah, so I've met like like crazy, crazy amount of people that just blew my

mind like yesterday I was an event and wow like the community is big because I thought that I knew a lot of smarts and great people on ZK and like it's twice the size I actually. So it's, I think like it's just getting started like all this ZK stuff and yeah the crowd is amazing. I sincerely advise you to go to this kind of conferences. Is this his most team going to be at East Denver? We're not this time. We have to ship when I told you about two months of sprint and then we'll go like many hackathons until ICC. East East East is the big one? Etcc is the big one and we have our big party so yeah we're going to be all in on at ETHC and before that we'll go at East Porto, East Dam and

And then now we'll do a lot of hackathons. So always happy to help you guys get started with this work. Adrian, thank you so much. Yeah, thanks a lot for the invitation. Cheers. Cheers.