Bankless - The CFTC’s Proposed Rules to Reshape US Crypto Markets | CFTC Chair Mike Selig

Episode Date: October 19, 2026

Could American crypto traders finally get the same features available on offshore exchanges? CFTC Chair Mike Selig joins David Hoffman to unpack Reg CTX and Reg CAM, two proposed rules that could bring retail spot margin trading and a new federal framework for crypto exchanges to the US. --- 📣SPOTIFY PREMIUM RSS FEED | USE CODE: SPOTIFY24 https://bankless.cc/spotify-premium --- BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 🔓NEAR | TRADE CONFIDENTIALLY, GET 20% BACK https://bankless.cc/near2026 🌍 RIPIO | LOCAL CURRENCIES, ONCHAIN https://bankless.cc/ripio 🎯THE DEFI REPORT | ONCHAIN INSIGHTS https://thedefireport.io/bankless 👑BANKLESS CONTENT MCP https://www.bankless.com/premium --- TIMESTAMPS 00:00 CFTC Chair Mike Selig Returns 03:09 Why Financial Markets Need Federal Regulation 11:13 Who Actually Regulates Spot Bitcoin? 17:27 The CFTC, FinCEN, and State Regulators 22:29 The New Crypto Regulatory Trilogy 27:16 Reg CTX: Bringing Margin Trading Onshore 29:22 Reg CAM: A New Federal Exchange Framework 31:11 The Problem with 50 State Licenses 35:11 What Retail Crypto Leverage Could Look Like 39:24 Ending the SEC and CFTC Turf War 42:58 The Risks of Combining Financial Businesses 54:04 What Other Products Could This Unlock? 56:35 Where the CFTC Gets Its Authority 1:01:05 Can These Rules Survive Without the CLARITY Act? 1:05:05 Prediction Markets and the Supreme Court 1:08:11 How the Crypto Industry Can Respond --- RESOURCES CFTC Chair Mike Selig https://x.com/ChairmanSelig --- Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures

There was a clear goal to make the United States the crypto capital of the world, and I believe that we've succeeded in that endeavor. I'm in the strictest financial prison that exists in the entire world, which is New York. We proposed first round of crypto exchange regulations to bring market-based regulation to the crypto asset exchanges. If this proposed rulemaking is accepted and made into a rule, individual spot retail people like me get margin, get leverage. People come to the United States and say, why can't we trade our margin?

And so we're creating the rules to allow this to happen. How optimistic are you about the durability of these rules without any sort of legislation? We do have a ton of authorities and agency and we're going to use it. My goal here is put in place something that is future proof, something that is bipartisan and has the support of both sides of the aisle. And I think if we get that right, there's no chance that a future administration is going to withdraw all of that. And they'd be taking a huge risk. We got CFTC Chairman Mike Seelick back on the podcast. Mike, welcome back.

Thanks for having me. Chairman Seelig, you were nominated by President Trump on October 27th, 2025. That is just about one year ago. One year of being the CFTC chair. How has the year been? Give yourself a grade, Mike, if you will. Well, look, when I came into this position, there was a clear goal to make the United States to crypto-case.

capital of the world. And I believe that we've succeeded in that endeavor. Today, we've got Bitcoin and all sorts of crypto asset perps trading in our markets. That was once a purely offshore endeavor. Now we've got it here in the United States. We propose, as I'm sure we'll discuss today, our first round of crypto exchange regulations to bring market-based regulation to the crypto asset exchanges, which until today, it's really all been about the state-level payment-space regimes. We want market protections for traders in our markets, and we're doing exactly that. We've also brought on a number of new controls and regulations around prediction markets, which, of course, a separate area, but there's a lot of synergy between prediction markets and crypto.

A lot of these ideas actually came out of Fatalic Buren's white paper so many years ago, talking about blockchain-based prediction markets. And so we're looking, of course, prediction markets on-chain, as well as other types of on-chain markets. and that's really been, I think, a great focus for this agency. So I'd give us a high mark when it comes to crypto and prediction markets. And then, of course, although I'm sure less of interest to many of your viewers, we're doing a lot in the traditional markets as well. And I think there was a lot that was done in the wake of the financial crisis

that made a ton of sense and we're continuing to make sure we enforce those regulations and beep them up where needed. There was a lot that really was an overreaction, what I referred to as an autoimmune response to, a crisis, which of course the time might have been warranted, but now it's really been a bit too much. So we're pairing some of that back and deregulating as well. There are two rules that the CFTC has proposed. And these two rules are going to be the entree of this podcast, kind of the main course.

And we're going to talk about regulation crypto asset transactions and regulation crypto asset markets, what these rules do and how they also work together because I think the pairing of them is also very interesting. Before we get into them, I kind of want to just zoom out and talk about something that's in the DNA of the country as a whole, which is the debate, the tension between states versus federal regulation. Maybe we can just start at the very beginning. Why is it important for financial markets to be regulated by the federal government, in your opinion, rather than the states? Like, what about the financial industry makes it more appropriate for federal regulators rather than state regulators. Well, one of the first federal statutory schemes around our markets was actually the

Grane Futures Act back in the 20s, which actually predated the securities laws, which came out in the 30s. But in the 30s, we saw with the Great Depression and the financial crisis of the time that markets need a federal regulatory scheme. Oftentimes, you have different state requirements, state by state, And you also have a need for uniformity across those state regimes. So you need to surveil the markets, need to be able to police bad behavior. You want uniform disclosure. When you're using, for example, whether it's a brokerage, like a Robin Hood, or going directly to an exchange, whether it's in our markets or on the security side, what you want is the

same sort of standards and requirements and protections against fraud and manipulation, wash trading, and the like when you go from state A to state B. And that's exactly what the securities laws set out to do in the 30s. And then the commodities laws, which also developed, as I mentioned, in the 20s, but over almost 100 years now, they've been built up. And the CFTC was established in 1974 to enforce a federal regulatory scheme for commodities derivatives markets. And that's been expanded over the years to include things like margin trading on spot.

But really what the purpose of this regime is, whether it's on the security side or the commodity side, is to make sure you have uniformity across the country when you have national markets. When you have, for example, an intrastate, so a single state market, you don't need, of course, this federal scheme that crosses state lines. But when you have an exchange or a brokerage that's doing business across state lines, you really want the same standards across those state lines as well. You want the same protections. You want things like, for example, if you buy a security and there was bad disclosure

or a lack of disclosure entirely, you want to be able to sue and understand the scheme, whether you're in state A or state B and not have to basically be in the best state to bring your case and have that of that competition across state lines. So that's why we have these federal market schemes. We don't have it for every type of statutory scheme. Of course, you've got various state laws that are purely intradited. us state. And that typically looks at things like, you know, certain types of brokers that are doing business in the state are regulated at the state level, certain types of offerings that are

purely in state, regulate the state level. You do have state commodity laws that govern certain types of commodity transactions within a state. But when you're crossing state lines, when you get into interstate commerce, that's when we want a uniform scheme across the country. And other countries, of course, don't have the same sort of consideration state by state. They do everything at a uniform level. But here in the United States, we have that balance between the states and the federal government. And we believe very much in the administration and states rights and the importance of having

really decentralized system in the United States. But there are certain areas where we do have federal regulation. And that's for efficiency and also protect investors and consumers. And we all know the United States is the capital center of the world. We have the global reserve currency. A lot of countries do trade in that. currency that gives us this centerpiece and a lot of investment from the rest of the world comes back into the United States capitals market and it's a very privileged position to be in

being the center of finance. And I suppose a lot of that would be simply downstream of this one single unified regulatory apparatus. If we had like a just a patchwork of state regulations, it would be much harder to hold on to being the center of capital of the whole entire globe. that's my intuition. Is that right? Yeah, that's exactly right. So the global commodity markets, commodity derivatives markets are actually $1.2 quadrillion dollars notion. It's a massive market. The United States has about 50% of that market. And that is because we have the Commodity Exchange Act. We have the CFTC. We've got the SEC as well. The police has certain aspects of our derivatives markets when it comes to securities. So we've got the best derivatives markets globally. We've also got

the best capital markets. And that, to me, is a credit to our statutory scheme, the securities laws, as well as the commodities laws, and the regulators should enforce those laws. And, you know, there's a lot of talk. People will say, oh, you know, this agency's not doing that or not doing this. But at the end of the day, our markets work efficiently every day because our agencies are working very hard to make sure that our rules are enforced, that products are listed in the proper manner that each exchange, which is a self-regulatory organization is doing its job to surveil its markets and police bad behavior and make sure that transactions settle as the users of these exchanges expect. So it's, of course, a huge responsibility on us as regulators that we take

very seriously and we work every day to make sure that our markets are the best in the world. And we're bringing those same market-based protections to crypto through these new rulemakings. I've been trading crypto for almost a decade, and I've used so many different wallets, exchanges, aggregators, or front ends. And I'm basically always looking for the same thing, just one interface with a deep liquidity across a bunch of chains and assets, where I can access markets like perps, earn yield, trade confidentially, and still control all of my funds. And I've never really found it. And I'm just always switching wallets, juggling, gas fees, or getting eaten by slippage. But near.com feels fundamentally different to me. I can do anything I want from any chain and keep all of my activity confidential.

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And I do think this history and kind of structure in the United States is really important to double click on, so I'm glad you did. Right now, what we have effectively is this patchwork of state laws and regulations. So in the wake of the Mount Gox collapse, almost probably over a decade ago now, I think back in 2011, 2012, what we saw was a number of states like New York and others react quickly

to make sure that there were certain protections for users of crypto exchanges. So Mount Gox, for those who don't know, was an offshore exchange. Actually, it was originally a Magic the Gathering cards exchange that converted over to a Bitcoin exchange and was really the primary place to get Bitcoin and other types of crypto assets aside from local bitcoins, which was basically like a

Craigslist for crypto. So this is where a lot of the liquidity was concentrated. Most people weren't necessarily mining for Bitcoin or obtaining it offline. So they got it through this Mount Cox platform. And there was a cyber attack. There was a bit of funds that was stolen. And I think the claims are still being resolved to this day or they were resolved recently. But that was a big fiasco at the time, and it set the price of Bitcoin back quite a bit. And the States reacted. And what they did was say these exchanges basically look like currency exchanges. So you, I'm sure, have traveled throughout the world and you go to the airport and you see

these currency exchangers when you get off the plane. And what they do effectively is swap out dollars for francs or whatever currency you're swapping into or out of. And basically that is done at a feat, right? There's a fee taken by the broker who's doing the exchange. And that looks a lot different than a securities exchange or commodities exchange where you go to an order book and trade back and forth or even from a foreign exchange, FX exchange, right?

So these are kind of currency swapper businesses. Also regulated under the same sort of framework are check cashers, like a Western Union, money remittance services that move funds across the country and into foreign countries. And so these types of payments businesses like PayPal or Venmo as well, that's all regulated state by state under what's called money transmitter licensing regimes. And so these states, when they saw the collapse of Mount Gox, said, hey, this is just another currency exchanger type business or payments business that lets people swap from Bitcoin to dollars or Bitcoin to Euros or what have you and move that currency around through a custody

wallet. And so they said, okay, we're going to call Bitcoin under our statutes or regulations, a type of currency or money, and we're going to regulate it the same way as we regulate PayPal and others. And that's worked fairly well up until this point. But then we saw FTCS, which I'm sure we'll get to as well. But with FTCS and some of these other collapses, you know, you didn't have the market-based regulations that require, for example, segregation of customer funds. So Alameda actually was receiving customer funds into its own bank account, which was an affiliate of the XTX exchange, and then they were using those funds for various purposes. Under a regulated market, right, you have a brokerage that's receiving the funds and there's very strict controls

on what the brokerage can do with those funds, how they have to segregate them. And then when you get into the actual order book, the guts of the exchange where people are putting in bids and offers to trade, you have certain controls around those bids and offers. You have certain requirements around, for example, orderly trading and making sure that you don't have wash trading where people are trading back and forth between their own accounts, manipulation in the market, fraud. These are all things that, of course, you have to do at a federal level across state lines. It's very hard to police that state by state, whereas it's easier when you're talking about just swapping someone's currency into one currency or another. You can look at, you know, the brokerage.

at self-trading with the customer, or you can look at, for example, fraud that's occurring within one state or maybe involves multiple states. But it gets very hard when you've got an order book with tons of trades matched across the book. And then also in our federal scheme, we usually require clearing. So we separate the brokerage, the exchange, and the clearinghouse. And I don't want to get too in the weeds of our rules yet because I know we're sort of teasing at that. But I think this context is important. So we effectively, for Bitcoin have these state-by-state regimes where you obtain a money transmitter license. You put up usually a surety bond with the state regulator. The same as your local 7-Eleven. I think they have to do

the same thing if they do cashback or check cashing or that sort of thing. So these are all payment businesses. There's thousands of these license in each state. And the major exchanges have these licenses across the country. Some states like Montana don't actually even have a money transmitting scheme. So some states, you know, you're basically able to do whatever you want. But other states, like New York, for example, have taken their statute and created a purpose fit, bit license regime where they're licensing what they call virtual currency businesses. So they've taken it a little bit further. But at its core, each of these rules or statutes is effectively a money transmission, payment services, licensing regime, which, again, it's held very well through a lot of this.

It didn't stop FTCX, even though FTCS had a number of these licenses. Of course, customers got harmed in those entities, as well as a number of the other collapses that we've seen with various exchanges. They hold these licenses. They work fairly well to make sure that some of the basic protections are there around anti-money laundering, know your customer sanctions requirements, but they don't. don't necessarily prevent frauds and manipulations that are market-based. So your answer to the question, who regulates the spot Bitcoin markets on Coinbase?

Your answer is like, well, it's a state-by-state basis, and each state has different sets of rules. Does the CFTC have any role in like Spot Bitcoin? And like, what about FinC? What about any of the federal agencies? What role do they play in regulating Spot Bitcoin? Or is your answer, it's actually just completely in the states? No, so the core piece is with the states, the licensing piece. The secondary piece is general anti-fraud and manipulation authority.

So the CFTC has general anti-fraud and manipulation authority to police fraud and manipulative trading in the market. So we do exercise that. We've done so in many cases at the state level. And so that's a secondary piece, but it's more enforcement. we do and we'll get to have other authorities to license these exchanges. But as it stands today, what we've done to date is in 2014, the CFTC declared Bitcoin to be a commodity. It later declared ether and other crypto assets to be commodities, which means that

we police those markets for fraud and abuse. And we did bring actions against, for example, FTCS. We brought actions against various exchanges, not myself personally under this administration, But in the past, we've brought actions against Cracken and Coinbase and others for various, whether we think they're good cases or bad cases. The prior administration brought them using the same authority, deeming various crypto assets to be commodities and policing fraud and manipulation or other abuses. And so that authority holds FinCEN is a separate piece of the Treasury Department. So FinCEN is the financial crimes enforcement unit. And they basically are looking for anti-money laundering violations.

Of course, you also have OFAC, which looks at sanctions violations. So they do have authority as well. These exchanges are licensed at the state level, but they do have to register typically as a money services business with Bin Sen. There are some exceptions. For example, some exchanges have trust charters and you don't need to get into all of that. But generally speaking, you have this state regime that's a patchwork. And then you have very limited, narrow focus for federal agencies like Vincent OFAC and the CFTC.

So the answer is to like who regulates spot Bitcoin. A lot of it comes down to licensing from the state. And that probably is what shows up when as a resident of New York, for example, there are a lot of products created by like Coinbase or Robin Hood, for example, that I just simply don't have access to. Like I'm in the strictest financial prison that I'm in the strictest financial prison that exists in the entire world, which is New York, because of the BIT license. And so, like, the way that I get treated as a customer, I think, is downstream of a lot of that state

licensing, New York being some of the harshest. But even, like, the state that I came from, Washington also has some, like, inconsistencies with other states as it relates to, like, the products that Coinbase or Robin Hood or any other crypto exchange is allowed to give me. And that's because of the state by state licensing regime, correct? That's right. And they license the activities. So I think that's an important caveat. So Bitcoin itself as a commodity is not regulated in the same way as say the securities exchange commission would regulate NVIDIA stock and the offering of NVIDIA stock. What these state regimes regulate are the platforms, the exchanges. And that's important

as well for DFI because they don't necessarily have the same hook into DFI that they would have into a custodial exchange or a custodial wallet because what they're looking for, basically these state money transmitter regimes came about in the early 1900s and they were designed to protect consumers that were giving their money to some third party to move that money or convert it into another type of money. And so the concerns they are very different, for example, than some decentralized exchange protocol where people are able to swap their assets or a non-custodial wallet where someone's able to hold their funds in that wallet. That said, I do think some of the state agencies have tried to creep into some of these activities, even under these statutes that

really were designed to focus on money transmission, actually accepting value for the purpose of transmitting that value. And the network's the one that's moving the value and with a person holding value in their own wallet, I think there's an argument as to whether those statutes really apply. That's also a separate topic from today's discussion. But I think it is important to note that these regimes oftentimes are trying to creep into areas where they're not designed to creep into because we don't have, to date, we haven't had a federal option for a lot of these platforms and protocols. All right, let's introduce the main entree, the new CFTC proposed rules, two proposed rules from the CFTC, Regulation CTX, that's crypto asset transactions, and regulation CAM

crypto asset markets. What do each of these rules do respectively? And then what do they do together? Yeah, and before I get to those two rules, I do want to preface it actually with the Securities and Exchange commissions, reg crypto, as well as the joint interpretation that the CFTC and the SEC put out just before that. And I think these are important to understand going into the new rules. I like to refer to the three as the trilogy because it harkens back to Star Wars. And I love that the crypto industry sort of formed the rebel alliance and fought against the evil empire for so many years. But what we have to start is this joint interpretation.

And that's kind of the prequel where we have categorized crypto assets into a number of buckets. So we have digital commodities, which are the network tokens, things like Bitcoin, Ether, Solana, Adam, the very very. various tokens, Uni as well, associated with decentralized networks or decentralized applications or protocols, where the value of the token is largely derived from network effects, from the value of the network itself or the application and the community around that, as opposed to a centralized issuer company associated with that. We also have digital

collectibles, things like meme coins and NFTs that are effectively offered as they are, there's not really any underlying business or promises attached to it. It's meant to just be sort of a collectible and the value fluctuates based on the same sort of supply and demand dynamics as other types of collectibles. We have digital tools,

things like liquid staking tokens, and other credentials that you use on chain that are really designed, fit for purpose. They're not really deriving value from a network effect, but deriving value from their utility in use on the network rate

an application. And then we have stable coins and security, digital securities. And so digital securities, of course, our securities, things like tokenized, Vidia stock, for example, digital commodities, digital tools, digital collectibles, and most stable coins are not securities. And so that sets up this preamble, this preface effectively for our rulemakings, because the SEC now put out reg crypto, which is kind of a little. episode one in the trilogy, and that allows for, will, would allow for if finalized,

a regime for the offering and distribution of crypto assets as what, you know, we used to refer to as ICOs or initial coin offerings effectively, right? It's a regime for fundraising where the team typically will promise to deliver and make certain disclosures around that offering. And of course, the offering itself with those promises and commitments and and the funds coming in without performance on the promises, is a security's offering. It's no different than selling stock or any other type of asset with those commitments and promises or what's called an investment contract.

But the token itself, if that token is distributed along with this promise and commitment, it's not itself a security. And there's a point at which that separates off from the offering itself from this investment contract and can trade as a, a commodity. So as long as it fits in one of the categories of a digital commodity, digital collectible, digital tool, and it's not part of, you know, it's not a digital security itself or one of the types of stable coins that might be deemed as security, it can go trade in the state

regimes currently or within what we're now establishing under Reg CtX and Reg. So Reg CtX deals with crypto asset transactions. And these crypto asset transactions are a specific type, right? So when you have the state regimes, what you can offer effectively typical spot trading on an order book. So you can't buy and sell Bitcoin. You can't really do a whole lot else because, again, these regimes are based upon statutory authority for regulating money transmission and exchanging one currency for another.

They're not designed for financial markets. What we have in the financial markets that's unique and that the CFDC has exclusive authority to regulate are the trading of commodities when you're able to offer to customers and investors the ability to take out margin leverage or financing as a retail customer. So for retail exchanges that want to say when someone goes to trade, they want to buy Bitcoin, they can check a box to do that on leverage or take out some financing or, or trade on margin. That sort of exchange platform is currently not available in the United States. It's popular offshore. But here in the United States, the CFTC has not done the rulemaking work needed to allow for these markets to exist in the United States.

The state regimes don't allow for it. The CFTC has authority there, exclusive authority, but we've only used that for enforcement to date. So there are a number of exchanges. Cracken's one example where the prior administration weaponizes provision. went after the exchange. They also went after DFI protocols like UNISWA, claiming that they were offering effectively what are called retail commodity transactions. We're referring to them when it's crypto as CTXs under these regimes. And they were not licensed. They did not have the approvals

of the CPD. And so they had to pay a fine. What we're doing now is laying out our interpretation, our definitions, and our guidance as to what these transatlantic. are and how they can be carried out. We're going to permit, of course, a certain degree of margin leverage and financing, similar to what we allow for with perpetual contracts in these spot transactions. Now, Reg. Cam is a separate rule proposal

that we're putting out that will allow for these exchanges to operate not just under our current typical DCM framework, a designated contract market, which is a type of derivatives exchange, but as a crypto asset market, a new type of exchange. So designated contract markets are futures exchanges, derivatives exchanges that are licensed with the CFTC. Virtually every major crypto exchange has one of these registrations with us. So Coinbase, Gemini, Crackin, also some of the new entrants in the prediction space like

Kauci that offer perpetuals. They've all obtained this license with us. And so they would out of the box be able to offer these CTXs without having to deal much with reg CAM. They would continue complying with their existing requirements and there may be some new requirements or additional rules related to these new transactions, but more or less they'd be able to just leverage their existing infrastructure

to start offering this. But for new entrants that want to start up a new crypto exchange that just offers these CCXs and doesn't offer perps, swaps, other types of futures contracts, they would go and might pursue this CTI or this CAM regime, crypto asset market regime, and that would be purpose fit for these platforms. So it wouldn't require all of the same things.

It would be a bit lighter touch than a typical DCM because you're not offering perpetuals and other types. of derivatives. So I like to envision a ladder. You have the states at the bottom of that ladder. The state regime allows you to do spot trading and all sorts of crypto assets. And we police for fraud and manipulation in those markets, but nothing else. Then you get to the second run of the ladder and you have the CAM regime. So these are exchanges that can now offer the ability to trade spot on margin leverage or financing. And you have the exclusive regulatory regime of the CFT. so you don't need to obtain all these state licenses.

And then at the top of that, you have the DCM, which is also allowed to engage in perpetuals and other types of derivative instrument trading on its platform. And that similarly has the exclusive regulation of the CFDC. So prior, maybe we can just use Coinbase as an example here, Coinbase got started. It got its license in its first state. I believe Brian was in California at the time.

So maybe it got its first license in California. it doesn't matter if this is true or not, just using this as an example. And then as Coinbase wanted to expand to service other customers, it would have to go state by state by state to get license by license by license to expand its market to the entire 50 states.

Is that the step that is being removed by crypto asset markets, the new regulation cam, by instead, you know, Coinbase in this world, in its new world, or any sort of future exchange is born. They are in a state, they register in a state,

to start, but then in order to go to access the whole rest of the United States, they can simply go to the CFTC and use regulation crypto asset markets to be homogenous across the entire country rather than having to do the whole patchwork game. So we're eliminating that step. Is that the through line here? Yes, we've created an option at the federal level. So it's not a requirement that you go to the CFTC. If you do want to offer a margin leverage of financing, of course, you do have to come into

the federal regime, but you don't have to come there if you don't want to and you just don't offer those products. I also can analogize it to the banking model. So if you're familiar with the banking model, there are state chartered banks and there's also federally chartered banks. And they can do different things. The states provide a list of permissible activities that they put in your charter and you can go about and engage in those. And certain states have reciprocity with other states, so you can offer your banking services into those states that allow for that. At the federal level, you're able to offer

at a federal scale across the country and you have other permissible activities that you can engage in. So it's sort of a choose-your-own model if you want to go state-by-state and pursue the licensing across the country like Coinbase and others have. You can do that.

The issue at the state level, it's important to flag for a lot of these companies and they've dealt with it over the years is some states say we don't like crypto. And so the requirement for surety bond or for capital is going to be so extraordinary that you have to over collateralize every amount of crypto that you have in your custody. And so it's impossible effectively to get the license. One of those states has been Hawaii.

I think Hawaii has maybe amended some of its policies over the years to allow for more crypto transactions in the state. but you have these states that can effectively dictate the model across the country, or at least make it really challenging to operate and service customers in a state. So some exchanges might say we're just not going to offer there. And New York's another good example. Bit licenses are not easy to come by. Notorious.

Many years. And so, you know, virtually all of these crypto companies get threatened out of New York with this whole bit license regime. And it's not quite clear, for example, There's a software developer carve out in there, but it's not ironclad. And so many of the firms you've been building layer one protocols have been concerned about operating the state. Also, firms that are just doing pure market making.

They're not actually even taking customer funds or acting on behalf of a customer. They're acting as their principal. So they're trading on their own behalf. Some of those firms have had to go and get a bit licensed. So some of these exchange requirements really intended to focus on, again, these early currency exchanges have been applied so broadly that I think clarity is really important. And that's why this Clarity Act, which I'm disappointed, it didn't get to the president's desk, but the Clarity Act would have actually required all these exchanges register with the CFDC and set a single standard.

We don't have the authority to do that under our statute, but what we do have the authority to do is allow for a federal option. And that's exactly what we're doing. A federal carrot for them to come in and get some new features, I think is also one of the big reasons why an exchange, a non-shore exchange might come to you guys to do this. Is the big feature what you talked about with giving retail access to margin or leverage inside of the spot market? And so, again, just using Coinbase as the example, like in the way that Coinbase works today is like I deposit $1,000 and then there's $1,000 in my account, and I can buy it. $1,000 a

$1,000 a Bitcoin. With this new regulation CtX, regulation crypto asset transactions, it's a little bit different. And now Coinbase can, if this proposed rulemaking is accepted and made into a rule, individual spot retail people like me,

get margin, get leverage. Can you go into that a little bit more and how that fits into this whole structure? Yeah. So when you're trading on the exchange, the exchange would be able to have effectively a drop down or some other prompt

and allow you to choose to trade on a margin basis, a leverage basis or a finance basis. And every exchange might be different in terms of how they carry that out. Our framework is a principles-based one, so we don't tell exchanges exactly how to offer their business, but we do have certain requirements, principles-based requirements around how they do so. That gives a lot of flexibility to the exchanges,

which I think is a great thing. But effectively, as a trader, what you would expect is you go to the exchange, you want to purchase Bitcoin. Maybe you have a bunch of other crypto assets in your custodial wallet. And so you can trade on margin. You can say that I will take these assets in my wallet. Let's say you've got ETH and Seoul and whatever else.

You pledge those as collateral and you can go trade. And of course, at the price of Bitcoin goes down, you get margin called and you might have to add more to your account. But it allows you to trade and effectively leverage the capital of your assets instead of just having these sit idle in your wallet, you can use them to go and take positions. And the margin requirements would be set by the exchange and consultation with the CFDC,

but they would be consistent with what we have in perpetuals and other futures markets in crypto, which has been around 7X is really the highest we've gone so far. It's not a hard rule. That's just where it's landed so far, but we have a margin process where methodologies are set by the exchange and works through with the staff.

And this is just giving onshore crypto exchanges something that feels like feature parity with traditional brokerages. So Charles Schwab, Robin Hood, TD Ameritrade, this is all they've been offering, you know, margin financing, leverage to their customers based on their portfolio for decades now, as long as I can remember,

as long as I've been in finance. And so this is just enabling centralized crypto exchanges to have the same sort of feature set that we've expected from our brokerages elsewhere. that's exactly right and it's also available offshore this has been incredibly popular offshore and so people come to the United States and say why can't we trade on margin and why are you as an agency enforcing against exchanges that allow it when you haven't created a path for it and so we're creating the rules to allow this to happen and we want to make sure of course that traders on the exchanges have the same protections that they have in the brokerage account whether it's Charles Schwab or otherwise as well as offshore a number of these foreign regulators have been very strict in terms of making sure that there are protections for customer funds.

And similar to in the wake of FTCX, how some of the actually CFTC regulated entities protected customer funds, they had a derivatives exchange that segregated and protected customer funds and didn't fail in the same way as their money transmitter licensed entities and other foreign entities.

But there were some foreign regimes where they had very strict requirements around margin and segregation of funds. And those exchanges, similarly, the subsidiary is protecting customer funds. So we're just making sure that Americans have best in class protections and we're really trying to set the gold standard here

that will protect customer funds and make sure we're competitive globally. I want to connect something for the listeners. You talked about the trilogy of the rulemaking first from the SEC with their original rulemaking. I can't remember the name of it. but then also the two new rules that we're discussing here today, regulation CTX and regulation CAM.

When we first had you on, as you were named chair, you talked about wanting to harmonize regulation between the SEC and the CFTC. And then now we have these trilogies of rulemakings, first one from the SEC and now two from the CFTC. Is these what you were talking about? That's what you were referring to. These are trilogies.

I'm also getting like an image of like, well, these are puzzles. pieces fitting into each other. And because you have just been talking with SEC Chair Paul Atkins, you guys can work together to draw lines as to which regulation goes under which rule to make sure that these three rules together harmonize and work together to create the regulation that they are intended to create. Is that the story here? That's exactly right. We want to make sure that there's a harmonized and consistent regulatory framework for so many years that two agencies have been locked in turf battles.

You know, under the last administration, for Scarry Gensler, all of our favorite SEC chairman, he used to fight all the time with Chairman Bentham. I mean, it appears that they didn't even agree on what's a commodity and what's a security. And so we're ending that turf battle once and for all. We've put in place a memorandum of understanding

between the agencies to work together to make sure that we're totally harmonized and consistent across our policies. And that includes crypto. So we have, as I said earlier, done this joint interpretation, laying out what's a security and what's not. The SEC's regime around crypto asset distributions will fit right in as a puzzle piece with our market structure. And I think there's even a possibility of a world where we continue to harmonize and allow for broader trading of, for example, tokens that are associated with an investment contract. Because the tokens themselves are not the securities, but the investment contract is.

So we need to take special care around and trading up those products because they touch both jurisdictions. But the products that are no longer associated with an investment contract per the red crypto, which is the SEC's regime, red crypto assets, as long as the token is separated from the investment contract and is safe harbor under that rule, then it can go trade in our market. So all this fits together very well and we're going to continue to harmonize in future rulemakings and other areas. But I think that's an important message as well for the American people that we're done fighting. We want to make sure that there's a regime that makes sense. We don't want an exchange coming to market and getting sued by the CFTC and then sued by the SEC and the two are fighting over what the products trading on the market are. We did see, for example, with many of the exchanges, even the mango markets incident, which not necessarily, you know,

an example of something that was good behavior, but both the agencies went after the same person and had similar allegations. So one agency should be policing certain products and the other one policing other products. And so the agencies need to agree on what's what for that to happen. And that's exactly what we're doing.

We don't want to waste taxpayer dollars fighting between the two agencies. We want to waste, not waste those dollars, use them effectively to police and protect American people. I want to go back into history a little bit and get a little bit more of some lessons out of you to the best of my ability.

When we allow, when the CFTC enables margin from a, and a centralized exchange, an onshore centralized exchange, like Crackin, Coinbase, it seems we are integrating different businesses that, to my understanding, in the Tradfai world,

have been segregated. And this is like, so Coinbase is an exchange. I think that it's corollary is a clearinghouse. It clears transactions and spits out dollars or Bitcoins between the different parties. It clears things. Now we are also allowing it to provide margin,

which is typically what a brokerage does, but a brokerage in the Tradfai world is not a clearinghouse. And this goes back to the Commodity Exchange Act of 1936, which required futures brokers to segregate customer margin funds. And in the securities world, the SEC's 1972 customer protection rule established possession and control and also reserve requirements intended

to prevent customer assets from financing the broker's unrelated activities such as proprietary trading, something that we saw in the great crypto contagion crisis of 2022. I think maybe to illustrate some of the attention here for the audience, you could imagine that there's an exchange who has an affiliated lending business who has financed a very large customer on that exchange. Now, imagine if this customer owns a lot of Bitcoin, but Bitcoin falls, and this customer is approaching default. The clearinghouse of this one entity, the clearinghouse risk team,

wants more collateral from this customer or immediate liquidation. The lending division wants time for this customer because liquidation would crystallize its loss and they would have to deal with that. The exchange wants the customer to keep on trading, and then if all of this is happening under one roof, management has to just balance its own interests of its independent divisions.

Now, to my understanding in the Tradfai world, these are three segregated entities. And when they are combined together, it might create a perverse outcome that historically we have segregated. So there's been historical precedent for segregating these services. And this is something that I know the Tradfai world was pointing at crypto, looking at like look at these exchanges, is doing all of this integrated services

that we've learned the lessons of from the Great Depression in the 30s and then later on in the 70s, why now do we think it's correct or okay to combine these services under one roof? So let me be crystal clear because we don't believe that that is the case and that's exactly why we're offering

this federal option. So under the state regimes, to your point, this is exactly what's happening now. It's not even a hypothetical. you're able to offer, look to go further than, for example, BlockFi, which had the lending business, its money transmitter business, it was tied into other businesses and was lending assets out from customers' wallets and paying interests and all of that and allowing people to trade crypto.

So these types of businesses have existed, many of them have failed, some of them still exist today. The federal option actually is not a, in all, all in one. So, for example, under the crypto asset market regime or under our DCM regime, you have separation of the broker, the exchange, and the clearinghouse. The broker is the customer facing piece of the equation. It would custody customer funds or work with a custodian, a custody of those funds, segregate the funds, and is walled off. Whether all these entities are owned by the same holding company or not,

it's walled off from the other two business lines. So, for example, in the case where there's vertical integration, we've put out actually a vertical integration. We'll proposal that we'll hopefully finalize in the near future, and this will apply just as much the new regime with CAMS as to our existing DCM regime. There are certain conflicts of interest requirements that we have in place today,

but this will actually bolster those, to make sure that there's actually more granularity in our rules than currently exists around these types of models because we are seeing more of them these days. But you would have the brokerage separated off. That's what's called a Futures Commission merchant within our markets, but that would be the customer-facing piece where you would obtain the leverage financing margin,

and that connects into the exchange itself. So the exchange itself is the order book, the matching engine, the execution piece of the equation. that's where customers would go to trade through their brokerage account. And then you have the clearinghouse that handles the customer funds that have been moved on from the futures commission merchant for settlement to the clearinghouse. And the clearing house, of course, we'll call margin to the FCM where required to do so. So all of this is separated.

We do have the same sorts of requirements we have in our traditional financial markets that we're bringing over to crypto, acknowledging that there are. some unique aspects of how these exchanges operate and some unique aspects around how the assets settle on chain and how they're custodied and all of that. But we think that's just as important today as we did in the time of FTX when we saw the collapse of that platform

and the failure to have in place conflicts of interest prevention. Alameda was getting special trading privileges on the exchange. As a market maker, you saw the ability to go into negative balance as that entity. You saw customer funds, as I mentioned, wired into like, Gallimated's bank account. So it was a total disaster. There was no compliance program to speak of.

I think if you go back and listen to some of the hearings and the bankruptcy proceeding. I mean, the John Array, I think, was the CEO we took over during the bankruptcy. It was like, this thing had absolutely no legal compliance to speak of. It's the farthest thing he's ever seen from a regular. platform. But then the CFTC piece actually was completely regulated and worked completely well. So that's what we're bringing to this market. And we have seen, as I mentioned, a number of the major exchanges come in to our framework to offer perpetual contracts and other types of derivatives. And it's worked very well. And we expect that they'll continue to expand their product offerings

under this new framework. So maybe I was just mistaken in that cosmetically, maybe they appear to be integrated products and services because it's all coming from the same place. So again, using Coinbase, if I go to Coinbase.com and I can get, you know, margin, I can get leverage. It appears to coming from the same place. But what I heard you say just now is that we're actually just applying the lessons that we've learned in TradFi, the segregated business lines that we have in TradFi. And now we are applying them to the crypto world in this rulemaking process.

So never mind that you can get margin in the same place that you. trade, we are still doing the whole segregation strategy because that is tried and true. That's the way finance has been built. And now we are providing this rulemaking to crypto to increase the scope and the tam of the market by giving it a federal blanket. Is that right? That's right. And some exchanges will choose to have the same sort of model that you would see within the New York Stock Exchange, for example, where you can go with whatever brokers we want. You know, you go through Robin Hood, you go through Charles Schwab or whoever, we have that same sort of model here on the commodity side

where you can actually use Robin Hood, for example, to access CME or ICE or other exchanges. It's no different when it comes to these crypto markets, but we do see some exchanges that choose to have a vertically integrated model where they might have their own brokerage that is tied in, and sometimes that's the only brokerage. Sometimes there's options alongside that. But it's a similar framework.

So you do, regardless of model, have the same protections. You have walls put up between the different functions. You have conflicts of interest rules. And usually these are separate entities within a holding company structure as opposed to the same entity. Sometimes it's all in the same entity, but the same rules apply where you've got those conflict prevention. So that's really an important principle to take away here.

If you look at the states, it's all one licensed entity. Actually, it's usually 50 licenses, but it's all effectively one business. and they kind of have to operate at the lowest common denominator and take the, or I should say highest, actually. They sort of have to use the rules, let's say if it's set by New York, the highest standard, because it would be very impractical to have different rules in each state applied. So they take the highest unless there's a conflict, of course. But with our federal regime, it's one setup, but you have different requirements on brokerage, exchange, and clearing.

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Wherever you get your podcast, YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or find a link of the show notes. There's a new episode waiting for you now. Other than margin and leverage, does this rulemaking unlock any other products for U.S. users and exchanges? Like what products you anticipate coming in to register with the CFTC? And then if there are more beyond that, like what can CFTC registered crypto market offer as like consumer protections?

It's very exciting to me. And in part, this is due to harmonization with the SEC. But of course, you can envision a designated contract market that's able to offer various product lines. They can offer, for example, perpetual futures, and those might include futures on equities, on securities. It might include perpetual futures on crypto and other products.

And then they can include the traditional futures products that are typically offered on other exchanges. They can include various types of options. And then this retail trading of leverage, margin, finance, crypto. So they've got a huge suite of products they can offer. And you can envision that the tokenized assets that are used on these platforms, so let's say you're buying Bitcoin, selling Bitcoin, you can take those and use them as collateral for your perpetuals or for your options trading, or you can use some of your derivatives positions

or your securities. You have tokenized securities, for example, in your account. You can use those as collateral. So I think there's just going to be a whole unlocking of capital in these markets, and that's going to be great for economic activity. It's also great for people to be able to leverage their assets more effectively. So when you've got assets, let's say, just sitting in your account

and maybe they're staking, you might be able to pledge those, expectably as collateral and go take out a perpetual position, or you might be able to take some of your assets that you're using as collateral and stake those and so on and so forth. So I think it just unlocks a lot more financial activity in our markets, and it also, most important to me, does so alongside clear rules of the road and customer protections. So, of course, the type of activity that happened with FTX, we can't allow to happen in our markets, and we're not going to. I mean, we're going to take every precaution to make sure that this is done right, and we have the protections in place. But at the same time, we want the innovation.

We want people to be able to engage in new financial activity. And we're also excited about on-chain markets. So that's a whole separate area. But I think you combine some of these different product classes and the on-chain opportunities with these platforms. And it's a really exciting time to be in these markets. The advanced notice of rulemaking, you said the precedent for this goes back to the prior administration where on the flip side, the Biden administration was using it as a weapon rather than just as a tool to create clear regulation. But it goes back even before the Biden administration. Doesn't kind of this go back even to like Dodd-Frank in 2010 where different administrations have concluded along different lines whether or not the CFTC has

this jurisdiction to do this. It would be. Maybe you can kind of give me just like a quick history lesson going back to Dodd-Frank in 2010 about the different administrations and the different precedent that the CFTC actually has the jurisdiction that it has to create these rules. Well, the CFTC originally was created to regulate the commodity futures markets. And this included a number of options products. It actually originally banned that came into the four several years later. And then it expanded into swaps markets. with Dodd-Frank, where that was originally sort of products that looked a lot like futures,

but were offered over-the-counter between sophisticated parties. That whole regime was brought under the CFTC's oversight after the financial crisis with Dodd-Frank. But there was also another class of products that came in with that same Dodd-Frank legislation. And this is oversight over retail commodity transactions, these transactions that are offered on a platform to retail, customers with margin leverage or financing. And what we saw leading up to Dodd-Frank, separate from all of the shenanigans in the financial markets, were these platforms that we're saying you can buy gold or silver or other

types of commodities, typically precious metals, but also foreign currencies. And you can do so on a leverage basis. And we're not going to actually deliver the products you after you buy it. We're going to hold it on our platform or in storage. and you're effectively getting that as a book entry, right? So just like a crypto exchange today, like a centralized exchange, they're not actually delivering it to your external wallet. It's in a kind of sub-wallet within a larger omnibus wallet.

And so it's a book entry within their books. And so they're settling that across, but they also have the ability, let's say you don't pay up on your margin call, to pull the assets from you. And so the CFTC started to investigate these platforms and bring enforcement actions. And the court said you don't have authority over these transactions. They look a lot like a derivative, a type of derivative you would typically regulate because there's not actual physical settlement. And it's not contemplated that you would receive the delivery within a typical window.

But there's something a little bit different from a typical futures contract. And so what happened with Dodd-Frank is they fixed this so-called loophole within the statute to broaden out the CFDC's regulatory authority and require that these types of transactions occur on a CFTC regulated platform and that the CFTC have the authority to regulate these so-called retail commodity transactions. And they also gave the CFDC a ton of authority to define a number of the terms associated with that and the exceptions to that. So we've done exactly this. We have started the process of rulemaking to interpret what a retail commodity transaction is in the context of crypto, which we can call a crypto transaction or CTX. And that rulemaking is underway. We hope to continue to move that forward and get that finalized in the year to come

or the next several months, hopefully. but the idea there is to take language that was added in Dodd-Frank for exactly this purpose to make sure that there's a federal regulatory framework when you're offering products on an exchange to have similar attributes to a futures contract. We're able to trade crypto on margin leverage or financing, and the statute is very clear it's only the offer of that that gets you into the regime. It doesn't matter if you actually accept it. So if you choose to go through the click-through menu on your transaction, you say,

I don't want to do leverage today. I'm just going to trade your spot. That's fine. That can still be within the framework because the offer of that is enough to get it within the CFDC regime. This all comes pretty shortly after the Clarity Act has failed to pass, rest in peace. How much can you actually get accomplished through this rulemaking alone? And then also, how durable do you think that this?

rulemaking is, you know, one fear that I think the industry has is that the Democrats will both regain administration after the end of this administration. And then in addition to that, we'll also attempt to dismantle some of these rules when they are back in charge of the CFTC whenever that is. So like, how optimistic are you about the durability of these rules without any sort of legislation? And then also, what can the industry do with these rules while we have them to make them more durable as well. Well, I laugh because that would be the most deregulatory Democrat administration we've probably seen in a very long time.

But all jokes aside, what we can do is put in place clear rules of the road that are designed to protect customers and, in my view, our good policy. And that's exactly what we're trying to do. So we put out an advanced notice proposed rolemaking. So this is even like a pre-rulemaking phase before we move. to the real substance of what we're proposing, so we can gather as much information and feedback from industry as possible. And that's from both sides of the aisle.

We hope that this can be a bipartisan endeavor. And I'm very disappointed we couldn't get clarity through. It really got sidetracked with these issues of ethics and the Genius Act, which really these things have nothing to do with the customer protections that the Clarity Act was designed to ensure. This is a market structure statute, but we do have a ton of authority as an agency and we're going to use it. So the Clarity Act would have required, as I said earlier, all crypto exchanges that are centralized and offer trading and certain crypto asset products to register with the agency.

And similarly for brokers and dealers and other categories of participants to register with the CFDC. and it also would have drawn a clear line between securities and non-securities as Chairman Atkins and I have already done through rulemaking, through this interpretation that we've gotten the Federal Register. So we've done a lot of the work already that would have been in clarity, but this would have codified it. And I think that is important in Washington. Statutes as important as permanent as you can get.

So, of course, we want that. But this is something that we don't need today. We can get clear rules of the road in place using our example. existing authority. We want to do it across party lines. We don't want this to be some, you know, pure one-sided bipartisan effort. We're taking all the input that we'll get. And so if people want to comment from either side of the aisle, we'll welcome those comments and we'll work with whoever wants to work with us to get this right. But my goal here is to put in place something that is future proof. It's something that's durable. And it's something that is bipartisan and has the

support at both sides of the aisle. And I think if we get that right, there's no chance that a future administration's going to withdraw of that. And they'd be taking a huge risk. You know, as I said, at the outset, sitting in this seat, the most important thing is to make sure that we have customer protections and that our markets are working efficiently, that they're sound, that we don't have another financial crisis or another major fraud on the market like Bernie Madoff or Sam Bainte-Mand-Fried. And you pull these customer protections that we're putting in place, designed, to prevent that. And who knows what happens. I don't think anybody wants to be responsible for that. And so I'm optimistic that no matter what these rules will withstand the test of time, we of course

are going to be reasonable in what we put in the rules to make sure that they actually protect customers and they're not just window dressing on the industry are going to be serious rules. But we think that this is going to be something that can stand the test of time. Well, Chairman, Mike Selech certainly takes no opportunity to miss going toe to toe with the states in that also. I would like to kind of get a quick download on the prediction market fight. So there are a couple circuits, a couple court circuits that have ruled in favor of the states. There's, I think, one court circuit that has ruled in favor of the CFTC. At broad strokes, I think that's true. Are we going to the Supreme Court, Mike? Is this just going to go all the way to

the top? It looks like we're tracking for the Supreme Court. You know, there's a split in the circuits as you've outlined. So New Jersey has requested that the Supreme Court review the case. And so we're standing by waiting to see what happens there. But the bottom line is, I don't like the reputation of someone who's going after the states. We're trying to protect our jurisdiction as an agency. And that's really my, I don't want to say it's my number one job, but it's up there, right? My number one job is to make sure that our markets are efficient and effective. But I can't really do that very well if I don't know what the markets are if they're constantly shifting under my feet. And so what we're doing here is making sure that it's,

It's clear in, I think our statute's very clear, but it's clear in the courts that the CFTC has exclusive regulatory authority when it comes to event contract derivatives that are offered on a designated contract market on one of our exchanges. And the states have gone and brought lawsuits against a number of our exchanges. And so we had to get involved and fight back as well as these exchanges. But what's really important here is we're just trying to protect our jurisdiction and make sure that the markets continue to function. I do have concerns, for example, if you can walk into an MGM brand or a Harrah's casino and you're able to trade an order book and there's no

market-based protections, for the same reasons I'm concerned when you go to state licensed Western Union or 7-Eleven and you trade an order book on crypto. I mean, a lot of this stuff works well for certain types of products and services, but it doesn't work well when you've get into financial markets. And that's really not a laughing matter. You know, when you get into serious financial market, inter workings, order books, clearing houses, and you try to kind of simplify it and offer it under, you know, a state regime that's not really fit for, you get manipulation, you get insider trading, you get wash trading. I couldn't even tell you, of course, we investigate what's going on in a lot of these markets because we have that anti-fraud and

anti-manipulation authority, but we don't have all the order book data that we'd want in many cases because we're not supervising these exchanges at the state level, just like we're not supervising the casinos. So, you know, to the extent you're offering an order book with derivatives products on the platform, our statute is very clear. It doesn't matter if it's on sports or politics or really anything else aside from onions and motion picture box office receipts. That's a derivatives contract. That's something we're designed to regulate and we'll continue to do so until the courts tell us that, you know, that the states are now going to be market regulators. Well, Mike, I think the idea of making the United States the crypto capital of the world is downstream

of what the United States already has, which is the center of capital for the whole entire world. And at bankless, we very much are not a political entity. We're not left. We're not right. But we are anti-authoritarian and we are also pro-markets. And so I think what you are doing at this, CFTC is very pro-markets. And I definitely take the argument that a patchwork state regulatory apparatus makes the markets smaller, less efficient, less organized. And that is a worst product for me as a user, but also the globe as a whole. So I like what you're doing. I'm supporting you. Hopefully, when the prediction markets goes to the Supreme Court, that we get a pro-markets victory. And I'm also excited to see what happens with all of this proposed rulemaking.

Do you have any asks for the crypto industry? So the rulemaking is in a period of comments. How can the crypto industry help you get your job done as these rules are being proposed? We would love to see the industry comment on the proposed rulemaking. So you can do so by going to the CFDC's website, the proposals available on the website,

and then you can click through to get to the comments section and file comments. And of course, we would love to be. hear specifics about how we can make the rule proposals better, what you're looking for out of the regime, but also just, you know, whether it's support or you hate the thing, we'd love to hear so we can make it the best product possible, because again, this is a bipartisan effort. It's a nonpartisan effort, I should really say. We don't want, you know, to put in place rules that don't stand the test of time and are not good for the industry and good for the

market. So please come and comment. Give us your thoughts. We're very happy. to hear from all of your listeners and I'm excited to get this thing done. Chairman Seelik, thanks for coming back on bankless. Thanks for having me. Bankless Nation, you guys know the deal. Crypto is risky. You can lose what you put in.

But we are headed west. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone, but we are glad you are with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot.